Two words that haven’t been on the political stage for a number of years but slowly people are starting to utter them again, Cold war. The old east / west rivalries seem to be resurfacing.
President Bush and his aides have stepped up their rhetoric against Russia over its continued military presence in Georgia. The US President says Russia’s behaviour belongs in the cold war era.
Some would say the timing was “inappropriate” but last week the United States announced a deal to establish an American missile defence base in Poland-angering Russian leaders. The US says the system will protect itself and Europe against long range missile attacks by “rogue states”.
And it seems that the propaganda has begun.
Former Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev, had this warning back in May. Are we heading for a new cold war? Or have things changed? Is this really a clash of ideology, or the US feeling threatened by as resurgent Russia, as Gorbachev suggests?
Does this heightened tension concern you, do you feel like we’re heading back to the “bad old days”? Or is this little more than posturing on the part of Russia and the US?
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Hopefully it is the end of the start of a “new” cold war. If former soviet republics and Warsaw pact countries want to elect right wing nationalist Presidents who cozy up to George Bush or any other neo-con right-wing US President, then this is what they have to look forward to.
The best attitude for them to take is that the US is not in any position to intervene in these border troubles, and is mostly full of hot-air instead. These countries need to conduct themselves accordingly vis a vis Putin’s Russia. The President of Georgia it seems is not above reproach in all of this causing some aggression against ethnic Russians. Too bad he drank the cool-aid and started his sabre-rattling.
The EU should take over the mantle and use its economic power to manage Putin, and not count on the bellicose US. This situation is actually a good thing for Europeans.
Moto should be: If we want Neo-Con, we get New Cold War.
Is this really a clash of ideology, or the US feeling threatened by as resurgent Russia, as Gorbachev suggests?
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——– Naw, this is just “the sense of Putin’s soul” rubbing GDub’s nose in the puppy mess he made.
I must say, the irony of GDub being the monkey wrench tossed into the Globalist power brokers take over the world works is supreme irony.
Best laid plans of mice and men turned to dust in a blink.
Thanks to the excellent question:
I hope this not the start of a new cold war….Because the world right now does not need it!
We have terrorism, weak economy, high energy costs and etc…
Dennis
Most modern wars are about markets, be it to sell to or oil or water.
The old ideological antagonism between east and west have already transcended to another plane. It remains a primitive opposition that, considering Russia’s poverty, for the time being only will stimulate competition.
The cold wars of the near future will be between the North and the South, the emerging markets and the established First World, with the water and the knowledge to know better.
Olaf from Spain
with attack of Georgia we are not heading toward cold war.but what we should remember that now we are sterting to have multipal players in worlde stage .Besides this we are are starting to see dependance of one part of world to another.we are just starting to see first results of globlisation.Europe which is heavily dependant on Russia for energy can’t challange Russia.Beside this America which is engaged in non ending war in Iraq and Afgistan can’t now not sustain conflict with Russia.so all these circumstances will lead to rather very weak American responce in Georgian issue.Besides this with mainly emerjence of china in world stage have reduced much of American influnce in world mainly in Africa and Asia.so with all these factors we are not heading to cold war era.we are beginning to see emergence of multipolar world.so it is just friction of the time when we are starting to see shifting of balance from one side to another.emergence of multiple powers means we will see less conflicts in days to come.
With the US starting to fratenize with Russia’s neighbours much to her displeasure, and with Russia starting to assert her military and economic might, squaring up to the US seems inevitable. This time around, through proxies like Georgia and Poland.
@nelsoni
you have raised avery important point .what we have seen is always big countries have used proxies to serve their intrest.
They are both posturing. What prompted the Bush administration to install these missile defense systems bordering Russia? This was such a dumb move to make at this time.
“At a press conference in Moscow, the deputy chief of general staff, Gen Anatoly Nogovitsyn, said US plans for a missile base in Poland “cannot go unpunished”. ”
This is such a scary sentence. What is the punishment? We put in a base and they bomb it? Then WWIII?
Russia’s only power is energy. If the west became energy independent, Russia would be finished.
The “old” Cold War didn’t really end with the fall of the Soviet Union. Russia simply went into a slumber but during that time distrust and resentment between it and the west remained. Now the Russians are in a stronger position to bargain with the west and re-assert itself. If the old Cold War was indeed over, why then the need to retain NATO and its expansion up to Russia’s border?
The last time I commented about the Cold War I was informed it never happened, it was just a figment of my imagination.
I think this indicates the continuity of Cold War. Cold war was because of the clashes between ideology and the same thing happening today as well. If this situation will go continue then the whole world have to face bad old days and this will be very dangerous to the human civilization, it will creates political instability, It could be damage index of the development and it may be cause of poor economic growth globally in the twenty first century.
Putin has stated that the collapse of the Soviet Union was a Geopolitical Disaster. The collapse was caused by the US outspending the Soviet Union and putting them into bankruptcy. I believe that Putin as a great Geopolitical chess master has always had plans to resurrect the Soviet Union. Flush with petrodollars capturing the pipeline thru Georgia gives Russia defacto control of Western Europe’s energy supply and allows Russia to restart the “empire” and decoupling Europe from America.
This is not a new Cold War it is a continuation of the original Cold War wherein Russia, if they successfully overthrow Georgia President Saakashvilli, will next go into Ukraine on the pretext of liberating Crimea.
If the West does not stand up & stop Russia, it will be the same result as when the West gave up Czechoslovakia before WWII.
Hi WHYS,
Most of the military tech Russians boasts of, and the west fears is ancient! Russia’s might lies in the nukes and gas plus oil it sells to Europe. Like Steve puts it, Russia will always bully every one as long as Europe buys it oil and gas. Russia can be brought to its knees if the west snubbed its resource. BUT…. Europe needs the energy! The ball remains in Russia’s hands.
Walter- Entebbe
Well,as they say,history repeats itself.I guess these events are indicating very unfortunate signs for the future.I think USA’s “putting finger into the fire” will go really bad this time.
I dont know if we are returnng to the ‘bad old days’ but the days to come will certainly not be ‘good’.
Abhinav:)
Thank you for reporting on the truth of circumstances leading to the Russian engagements in Georgia. The US media is still rife with propaganda passing as news reporting on Russian imperialism. A little more pointing out how the truth more closely resembles the first Gulf War, aside from the fact that Daddy Bush had the prudence to stop his troops safely at the border with Iraq, would be most welcome over here..
It would also be interesting to compare the destruction of infrastruture caused by Russian incursions to the destruction in Iraq from the first gulf war, the US-backed war with Iran, and the ongoing “collateral damage” from the current situation. I’m jumping to conclusions that the Georgians will fare far better off than the Iraqis did.
If this is true, and the Russians continue to immediately disengage from Georgia as your story predicted, AND the rest of the world regards this as the proper setting of an example, then there is no reason to jump to chicken-little predictions of a renewed Cold War.
It seems to me the best economic interests of Russia are not best served by returning to cold war politics. To whom will they sell their gas? So no, this isn’t a return to cold war, it’s just rich boys behaving badly. Whining about the ineptitude of lame duck Gdub and the Neo-con fascisti in this affair seems pretty useless, though. I mean after all, they’re not going to learn to do any better, and they don’t have much time to any worse. Personally, I am a military isolationist. I don’t wish to see any US citizens involved in any military actions, defensive or offensive, to protect anybody’s shoeshine anywhere on the planet. I mean, there are a half billion of you folks in the EU. If you’re comfortable with Vlad, Dmitry and Gazprom, so am I.
g
I think the idea of a new cold war is being constructed by the paranoid fear-mongers that keep TALKING ABOUT A NEW COLD WAR. The first time Russia shows any sort of indirect contention to the United States since the fall of the Soviet Union, WE PUT A MISSILE BASE IN POLAND. Russia was responding to an attack on their own citizens in South Ossetia, and responded with excessive force. As if the United States hasn’t done the same. We hardly even discuss the casualties of Iraqi and Afghan civilians anymore because there have been so many. Russia’s violence cannot be justified, but it is outright hypocrisy for the United States to act as though its own actions are justified, while Russia’s actions are a threat to the entire world.
^ By the way, I’m not defending Russia. I just wouldn’t like the US to be responsible for turning this into another game of chicken with a nuclear-armed country.
Is this the start of a new cold war?
Did “Russia” lose the Cold War ?Yes ,May be they need reminding of that fact.
After WWII Germany and Japan were rehabilitated and reintegrated into the world economy,however after the dust has settled on the Cold War ,Russia has decided to come back for some more.
How big a hot or cold war do they need to lose before they realise they have lost the economic ,political, cultural and social argument with the civilised Western World.
Hopefully yes,this is the start of a new cold war ,Because there is unfinished business ,although most of the Soviet Union was broken up,Russia is still intact , plus Sakhalin,Kaliningrad and Karelia ,recently part of other countries, need to be returned .
Bush/Cheney/PNAC, the Project for the New American Century, started this new era of wars and I think it would be more accurate to call it a new Hot War instead of a Cold War.
The PNAC is a group that wants to Dominate the World (remember that Adolf Hitler wanted to Dominate the World?) and they have convinced Bush/Cheney to abrogate carefully crafted Treaties, unsign the US from the International Criminal Court, violate International Laws and agreements, and start wars for control of Oil under the guise of “spreading Democracy”. Does anybody remember that Iraq was a democracy under Saddam Hussein?
Bush/Cheney/PNAC have destabilized the safety and peace of the world and apparently nobody in the world can feel safe while they wage their Hot and Cold Wars to Dominate the World.
In the face of the new Bush/Cheney/PNAC attempts to Dominate the World, Russia responded in South Osettia and Abkhazia and are acting as if under threat by the US installation of missiles in Poland.
Bush/Cheney/PNAC have made the world unstable and more unsafe and the people threatened by them have responded and are responding to protect themselves.
I suspect that you could ask anybody in any nation in the world if they want Bush/Cheney/PNAC to Dominate them and you would find that nobody anywhere wants to be Dominated at all.
So, no, it is not the start of a new Cold War, it is the continuing of Hot Wars started by Bush.
With friends like these…
Newshour here was imediately followed by an NPR news update reporting a declaration by NATO that Russia had failed to withdraw from Georgia as agreed. Right. Like Nicaragua failed to write a constitution fast enough.
But fine. Let’s be fair. I ammend my previous post to read:
If Russia proceeds to withdraw from Georgia in a timely manner, as the situation “on the ground” permits, (as your Newshour report predicted…) etc. etc.
Ethnic Russians need resettling out of their former colonies (the Baltics and Ukraine etc)
The “Russian”Soviet Empire was defeated and broken up and normally after the end of an empire the occupiers leave ,eg: British ,French,Spanish,Portugese,Dutch and Belgian ,however ethnic Russians backed by their country were insistent on staying put and that created tension like the recent events in Georgia(weren’t Ossetians responsible for Beslan?) .
After the cold war defeat Russia pleaded poverty as an excuse for not recalling their citizens,now they are flush with Oil and Natural Gas sale revenue that is no longer possible and they should look after their citizens who are second or third class citizens in their former”colonies”,by giving them homes and jobs in their motherland.
Cold war hell. Let’s call all former Soviet buffer states to get on a hot war footing.
Dig in along the boarders and launch some real provocacations against the bear.
We need a real war. Not one of these little spats that go on for years and decades.
Lets hammer them as hard as we can and then see if we cannot knock out all the tanks in Georgia and say we were just trying to get back our humvees and the humanitarian supplies that the Ruskies stole from us in an effort to intimidate.
Strike and kill as many of the invading Ruskies as we can with our airstrikes and tell our buffer state friends they are going to have to fight for their freedom from a bully. Kill as many as you can and get them really upset and they can then go to the UN and complain about how bad we are.
I don’t like it that we are not construed as worse than they are. It is just not traditional..
I want my job as an old marine back.
troop
When the US does something it is for the good of humanity, when someone does something it is aggression and violation of international norms. It’s plane as daylight that the Bush hasn’t been able to stomach Russia asserting its might on Georgia. But to see this as beginning of cold war is to read too much. There have been far serious developments that could have led confrontations.
Hi gang ! ;-)… Wow, a new cold war between the US and the West on one side and Russia on the other side ??! Well ”Let their own fire burn their own wood”, and let us, the crashed and oppressed classes of the ”global” community watch closely and see the ones who kept stepping upon us for such a very long period of time stepping upon each other in the end… May God bless the theory of ”autodigestion”… With my love… Yours forever, Lubna…
“My previous post” at 15:30 is still marked “awaiting moderation” so I don’t know if this leaves my comment at 16:14 slightly confusing.
Please pardon the edited rerun if I am simply confused as to how this system works.
—
Thank you for reporting on the truth of circumstances leading to the Russian engagements in Georgia. The US media is still rife with propaganda passing as news reporting on Russian imperialism. A little more pointing out how the truth more closely resembles the first Gulf War, aside from the fact that Daddy Bush had the prudence to stop his troops safely at the border with Iraq, would be most welcome over here.
It would also be interesting to compare the destruction of infrastruture caused by Russian incursions to the destruction in Iraq from the first gulf war, the US-backed war with Iran, and the ongoing “collateral damage” from the current situation. I’m jumping to conclusions that the Georgians will fare far better off than the Iraqis did.
If this is true, and the Russians immediately disengage from Georgia, AND the rest of the world regards this as the proper setting of an example it would be, then there is no reason to jump to these sorts of chicken-little predictions of a renewed Cold War.
(as if “the company” war ever really ended)
– JD. 16 tons out.
No, its the start of a new power war, Russia is flexing its strength, stateing it is still a leading power and will do whatwever needs to be done to protect its interests in its own back yard. Russia is still of the opinion that its neighbouring countries must toe the line as it had to in the past when the Soviet Union ruled as masters of the region.
Any deals done with the United States of America by its neighbours must first meet with their approval.
@ Lubna
Here here,
”Let their own fire burn their own wood”, and let us, the crashed and oppressed classes of the ”global” community watch closely and see the ones who kept stepping upon us for such a very long period of time stepping upon each other in the end…
It is still all about oil if we look between the lines, not much mention of Israels role (which implicates the US automatically), “Israel has been selling arms to Georgia and has “military advisors” attached to the Georgian Military. Israel also would benefit if the oil pipeline bypassed Georgia and was routed through Turkey. The oil would then come to Israel’s ports. Israel could then begin to be in a position to control the oil flow to various regions and countries”
This new war sounds far from cold………Warmongers never tire in their pursuit of new conflict…….As we have seen in Iraq, oilmongers will stop at nothing, especially playing two sides against one another to achieve irreconcilable chaos, allowing military control and suppression to flourish. Have a lovely day!
I certainly hope that a new Cold War is not in the offing. Neither the Americans or the Russians can afford to waste trillions of dollars orrubles on more devastating and fancy ways to kill people. We have a global environmental and food crisis that would be pushed to the sidelines should the two countries restart a military competition in earnest.
Although the West does not like what was done to Georgia, we have to realize that there are (diminishing) limits to the power we have to protect other countries. Western Europe is dependent on Russian energy and if Senator Obama is elected president, the USA will want to spend large sums of money on internal rebuilding, education, resolving the credit crunch etcetera.
The reasons for the Cold War are no longer around anyway. The Russians are no longer promoting Soviet style socialism and seem to be very adept at playing the capitalist game. There is far less of an ideological difference now between the US and Russia than there was during the Cold War.
We have a choice to make now. We can isolate the Russians [say by expelling them from the G8] and start a new Cold War, or, we can engage with the Russians diplomatically and make our points behind closed doors in meetings between the Americans, Europeans, NATO and the Russians.
I strongly advocate a policy of engagement with the Russians. We had a chance to do this during the Yeltsin years and instead we arrogantly decided that Russia was too weak to be of any value to the West. Now that that stupidity has been disproved it is time for us to face some basic facts:
1) We cannot militarily help the Georgians without risking the
start of a Third World War.
2) If we give any military help (or guarantee), to Georgia then we
risk a complete breach with the Russians.
3) Economic and compassionate assistance to Georgia can only
be given with the acquisence of the Russians.
4) A new Cold War will damage both the West and the Russians –
the only winners will be the Chinese in such a confrontation.
5) The West’s two most capable military nations [US/UK] have been
exhausted by the Iraq and Afganistan Wars
6) We do not yet know who will replace President Musharraf in
Pakistan. Should the “wrong” leader (from a western point of
view), be elected then the terrorism and West versus Islam
problems could become a great deal worse as Pakistan is a
nuclear power with nuclear weapons knowhow.
Overall, let us keep our heads clear about the Russo-Georgian War. We in the West have loudly expressed our disapproval of Russia’s actions but now we must return to business as usual. We can do little to help the Georgians without Russia’s agreement and the way to get that is to engage with the Russians.
Here’s hoping that the great work done by former Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev and former US presidents Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush (in ending the Cold War), are not undone by a situation that we cannot change.
OK, then.
NPR’s 11:00 CDT (USA) update reported that Russian tanks were in fact withdrawing from a strategically impotant Georgian town, a matter of days following the signing of a pullout agreement this weekend.
It also specifically reported the two actions taken by NATO, withdrawl from an alliance with Russia, and entry into an alliance with Georgia.
Regarding my previous interest in damage estimates, perhaps a little Onion-style reporting would be in order here. In light of actual tank movements, maybe something about the US Army Corps of Engineers being sent in to estimate the cost of road repair necessary owing to tread traffic on surfaces not speced out for such vehicular traffic.
Sorry guys. Write your own stuff. You read it here first.
The Russians were taking US military hardware as war trophies ,hardly acting in good faith.Their intentions are clear and so NATO should take appropriate action.
@Lubna
What about your cadavres?
@ Lubna 16:36
I am not well read in this “theory of autodigestion.”
Would it be fair to paraphrase that in the paraphrased words of Nikita Kruschev?
“You will bury yourselves.”
But then, Dwight D. “Ike” Eisenhower said that first, I think.
(no pinko me)
The cold war was about ideology. What we’re witnessing today is merely a flexing of muscles in a multi-polar world. Russia deserves to be the big dog in it’s neighbourhood and is merely signalling that it will brook no interference in its “near abroad”. Big countries like India and China likewise have their own spheres of influence in South Asia and East Asia respectively.
The world today is one huge connected global marketplace. We’re all part of the global supply chain. Ergo, there is no Cold War of ideology being fought anymore. Just some competition for limited natural resources like oil and minerals. Witness the competition between India, China, Russia and the US for influence in Africa to exploit it’s mineral resources.
Power projection is an essential component in this neighbourhood. We may soon see space-based weapons platforms as well as carrier groups. News is that Russia is already seeking to restart work on aircraft carriers.
Is this the beginning of a new cold war?
You wish! 20-30 years ago, the world was still “in order” and you knew perfectly well who “the good guys” and who “the bad guys” were, but today… Sure the US and Russia can haggle as much as they want, and Russia can try to pretend that it’s “good old” USSR again, but there are still soooo many more players out there now, that it makes it impossible to clearly define the front lines. Russia has to watch out itself for islamic terrorists, and there are more than one region on its territory that wants independence; and the US have stretched themselves so thin that they can’t do anything anymore, which renders the whole NATO actually obsolete. And I haven’t even touched China and India yet, who will soon want a serious share in the role to play on the world stage.
My feeling is rather that the whole world is in the process of getting into a new order, and it will take a little while until everyone has found his new spot.
I have read through the comments and it seems that it is west against east.
If this is a new cold war, who actually started it? The US along with her western allies or Russia?
The west through NATO attacked Serbia to curtail “Ethnic Cleansing” and supported Kosovo’s independence bid against Russian opposition.
Negotiated with the Czech Republic and Poland for the installation of missile defense system against a very strong Russian opposition. If America is truly building the missile defense system to foil attacks from Iran and other “Rogue States” like North Korea, etc. why didn’t they negotiate with Iraq and South Korea for the defense system. Why can’t they negotiate with other European countries like Turkey and likes for this defense system but only former eastern bloc countries? It is clear that this missile defense system is against Russia and no other country.
Georgia attacked South Ossetia and killed Russian citizens and peace keepers, indiscriminately killed S. Ossetians and completely destroyed Skihnvali. No western leader condemn Georgia for that. All the condemnations are pouring down from hell simply because Russia did what any other country including the US to avoid mass slaughter by Georgia.
What is really the point of the west in this crisis.
Hello WHYS Gang, the smaller/weaker nations will always thrive at the mercy of the bigger powers. Like my brother Nelsoni said: a proxy war. The Domino Theory of keeping one’s enemy friends busy is looking back in the face of America. Supporting smaller nations against bigger powers has always been America’s strategy. For example, the Island of Formosa(Taiwan)against mainland China.It is the innocent Georgians that are caught in this ugly web of power play.
Would that George Carlin were still alive to play the embedded reporter voicing the New York Irish cop serving a six-week tour in Georgia as MP:
“Alright folks, come on, move along now. The show’s over.”
RIP
We can see that Russia is an economically, socially and now as we all see a morally bankrupt nation who cannot influence any other nation to bond to it so it must resort to brute force.
This is a nation that must be isolated in the world and allowed to die or reform itself. I also believe that it must pay for it’s crimes by reimbursing Georgia for the damage done and pay liability to the families of all Georgians murdered.
Some nations are allowed to do plutonium enrichment,make more warheads as possible while others are not.Those nations that are not allowed are usually vulnerable and prune to attack by the ones with warheads. Weapons are not made to be stored in museum. These great nations will find by all means necessary to test their warheads. I am so sorry for little Georgia that is the proxy in this charade. Russia wants America to know that she has new weaponry and America should beware.
It’s yet difficult to say of what this is the beginning but it is very bad. It’s not a new resurgence. It is the sensitive points which had been overlooked and cultural differences. And none of these difficulties can be easily overcome.
Russia is a symbol of aggression, oppression and dictatorship. There is no need to provoke Russia, it will attack anyway. Russia made the excuse to get into Georgia. We should get Georgia into the NATO and all other countries we could. Isolate Russia.
So Russia wants to re-assert itself as a global superpower! How does it aim to achieve this, by threatening to obliterate any rivals or dissenters? This isn’t being powerful, this is insanity and only portrays Russia’s leaders as a bunch of bloodthirsty thugs with no more integrity than any past murderous dictator who shared this outlook last century.
I think whether or not the “frost” of the Cold War returns will depend heavily on how the U.S. behaves over the coming weeks and months. The West missed a premium opportunity when Soviet Communism collapsed. The west took a halfway measure, neither helping our old rival, nor euthanizing them. We simply left our old Cold War rival economically crippled and humiliated in front of the world, hoping (in Darwinian fashion) that the World market would do what our military dared not. And had it been anyone else, they might have actually gone quietly, accepting their fate (сyдба). But we are talking about Russians, a people adapted to harsh cold and even harsher economic conditions. They survived Hitler, Napoleon, the Swedes, the Tatars (AKA Huns), and countless other threats throughout their history; they were bound, not only to survive the West’s negligence, but to re-emerge stronger because of it.
I was just thinking about this issue driving home last night. I am not sure yet but I do not feel safe or happy about the situation in Geordia. I think that Russian Political party is showing it is now in power and that they want to show off. But they have been exerting power over this past year, first with the oil movement and now with this action. For the first time is years I am more concerned with Russia then with Iran.
I don’t think so. The world has come so far as to go back to those caveman days.
I simply think the US must come to the realisation that it can’t keep on being the world’s police without regard to even the weakest states. It must accept diverse opinions and not try to be everybody’s god deciding unilaterally what is good or bad and who is good and who is bad.
Definitely no, but both America and Russia is trying for oneupmanships. Russia showing off its new found economic boom due to oil pricerise and America trying propaganda war about cold war era so it will be easy to keep its own allies with it. Also the defense system base laid up in Poland is a defensive ploy. Russia in all probability with Cuban aid will propagand that its going to lay its military base in cuba that will be propaganded as back to Bay of Pigs missile-laying days.
All this are blabbering by both sides as both sides are not messiahs for sure. Russia and America if not for the cold war era but still with their rhetorics can unsettle this world as the happenings of Iraq and Georgia has shown?
I came across this story that makes a lot of sense to me:
“London, 16th August 2008:
GRU PRIME MINISTER DEMANDS IMMEDIATE PAYMENT OF $87 BILLION
Russian GRU-Prime Minister Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin has DEMANDED that his grossly overdue payment of $30 billion under the Reagan-Mitterrand Protocols MUST be paid, WITH COMPOUND INTEREST, and IN THE BANK BY MONDAY, 18TH AUGUST, or he owns the pipeline and Georgia.
With compound interest, the sum of money outstanding and payable to Putin is $87 BILLION, which is the sum he requires to be in the bank BY MONDAY.
FAILING PAYMENT OF $87 BILLION BY MONDAY, RUSSIA WILL SEIZE THE GEORGIAN PORTION OF THE PIPELINE AND WILL TAKE THE WHOLE OF GEORGIA, WHATEVER RICE AND BUSH SAY.”
http://worldreports.org/news/160_putin_pay_me_by_monday_or_i_own_the_pipeline__georgia
No smoke without fire , or what?
Malc
International media tell us constantly that Imperialism by Britain, France or USA is OK while imperialism by China or Russia is ‘a bad thing’. The truth is that ALL imperialism is a bad thing. Drop the double standards!
Most of the military tech Russians boasts of, and the west fears is ancient! Russia’s might lies in the nukes and gas plus oil it sells to Europe. Like Steve puts it, Russia will always bully every one as long as Europe buys it oil and gas. Russia can be brought to its knees if the west snubbed its resource. BUT…. Europe needs the energy! The ball therefore remains in Russia’s hands.
I think the new cold war has begun when Russia attacked Georgia.
As an American I have found the dramatic change towards totalitarian rule Russian has undergone over the past 10 years more frightening than anything from Afghanistan or Iran. If the world does not stand up now, since it has done nothing to change the loss of democracy and the return to KGB style rule, then we are looking at an even greater level of world destabilization than we saw during the cold war. You ask is the cold war starting again and I give an emphatic no, it has already begun and the Russians players are now well entrenched.
Georgia needs to come to terms with the reality that Russia is always going to be there as their neighbour. Making friends with another country on a remote continent will not make this reality go away.
The USA has invaded Iraq and Afghanistan in the last 7 years and now is accusing Russia of being over aggressive. Georgia borders Russia and has still disputed territories so what influence does USA have there to exert or worry about? NATO is talking tough but can do nothing as usual. The last thing this world needs is another Cold War and we need cool calm heads to prevail, Condoleeza Rice is the last person needed on the scene, she is hopeless and has solved nothing since being in the Bush administration.
In the Russia vs. Georgia strife, I am shocked by the believe-and-fear USA government basis for the accusation of Russia of violating the sovereignty of Georgia by Germany, Britain France and NATO, and for their making of outrageous demands of Russia, instead of speaking against the government of the USA for engineering of the war to achieve its globalist “containment” of Russia interest, and for its legions of violations of the sovereignty , independence, freedoms and rights of other nations, and the sacredness of human life.
Who does not know that NATO was established as a globalist strategy by the USA government?
Why are governments lacking in courage and commitment to collective policing of international relations of states, and the protection of the security and peace of the world, and the morality to set the USA aside on any issue for which the USA government is also guilty, the first offender, or more guilty than any government that it accuses? Why are governments lacking in the courage, moral commitment to sovereignty and international laws, and dedication to to the United Nations treaties, conventions and covenants on war to bring the government of the USA to the ICC and to justice for its legions of crimes?
Prince Awele Odor
Lagos, Nigeria
@ Kieth,
I get the same thing for not parroting the party line: the naive and the ignorant will always try to shout down those not in lock-step with the prevailing opinion.
Shout back. If nothing else, you didn’t let them beat you
This isn’t a cold war yet. What we are seeing is a breakdown in dialogue with Russia and the rise of a new multipolar world. Now is the time for dialogue, not posturing.
I think the verry first beginning of a new Cold War was the request of arranging a missile defense shield in Poland and other former socialist states. The next step was the marching in of the russian armee into Georgia and into the capital Tiflis.
The decision of the NATO not to talk to Russia for the next time, but to talk to Georgia is only another aid to provoke the russian government.
This aim of provoking makes me fear of a new Cold War. But there’s an arbitrative difference to the former Cold War: Today there are atomic weapons placed allmost all over the worls (in the NATO-members, Russia, Pakistan, Israel, maybe Iran…). So a war in the present would become much more dangerous and much more cruel than in the past!
Interesting that Kruschev says Russia has no allies any more and is going it alone. Well, it is a sign of how the Soviets (Russians) treated anyone in their sphere that former Eastern Bloc nations want nothing whatsoever to do with Russia and falling over themselves to Join NATO. What a surprise, what is happening now is not going to earn them any friends either.
I am a Russian/American. If I had to talk to Putin today I would say “Please, have patience, George Bush will not be in power for ever. Logical and rational governance will be ours within 6 months.”
I didn’t vote for Bush the first time or the second time. I know that historically Russia has been abused undeservedly by many different countries but Russia’s time is coming.
To the caller in Tel Aviv, the missiles the US is putting in Europe are anti ballistic missiles, whose only use is to shoot down other missiles. What is russia so afraid of? Should Russia be able to tell the Czech Republic wha tthey do on their own territory if it poses no threat to Russia?
So why is it that we support breakaway countries like Kosovo, but we are steadfast in our defense of Georgia trying to regain its breakaway region through force? It’s a double-standard.
@ Malc Dow
I clicked your link. Just ’cause kittens was born in the oven doesn’t make ’em biscuits, i.e. just because it was posted on the web doesn’t make it so. I’m gonna have to say it’s bull
@Dan,
If that is the case, then Georgia should be fully responsible for the rebuilding of Skihnvali, pay reparations for the thousands of lives they destroyed in South Ossetia.America must be 100% responsible for the reconstruction of both Iraq and Afghanistan, pay reparations to the families all those innocent lives they have recklessly destroyed.
All of you warmongers who say “Russia must be punished!”…..So basically you’re saying you’d be totally cool with a nuclear standoff? Don’t talk about punishing countries, that is barbarism at it’s best..Europe punished Germany after WWI, and look what happened: WWII.
Isn’t there an essential difference between the missiles in Cuba during the Cuban Missile Crises and the missiles being planned for Poland? None of the commenters are making a distinction between the nuclear, offensive oriented missiles in Cuba vs. the non-nuclear, missile defense missiles in Poland. Are the Russians upset because this interfers with the credibility of a threat to nuke Poland? If thats their problem, then perhaps the US is not doing enough to prevent a re-expansion of Russian tyrany into former Soviet countries that are currently free, democratic and increasingly prosperous.
I apologise for the rudeness and hostility in attitude of the Washington correspondent, as one of my fellow countrywomen.
If Georgia were bordering Israel and if the South Ossetians were Jews, then Israel would have reacted in a far more forceful way. What would the West have said? Probably they would have stalled any attempts to get a cease-fire.
Dr. Rice would probably have said that: “What we’re seeing here, in a sense, is the growing — the birth pangs of a new Middle East.”
steve August 19, 2008 at 6:27 pm
“To the caller in Tel Aviv, the missiles the US is putting in Europe are anti ballistic missiles, whose only use is to shoot down other missiles. What is russia so afraid of? Should Russia be able to tell the Czech Republic wha tthey do on their own territory if it poses no threat to Russia?”
The US went to war in Iraq when Iraq poses no threat to America. We only blindly support things when it is in our favour. What a great way of analyzing issues.
The real provocation is from the continuing expansion of NATO, which seems to have been completely glossed over by the western news media. Can we have an open debate about why NATO needs to keep expanding?
Ah, the far left never ceases to amuse me. War is bad if the US does it, but it’s okay if Russia does it. Ever wonder why russians are SO hated in eastern europe, it’s because how they treated the people in those countries. But the far left will always love Russia, and must be thrilled that something resembling the USSR is back again.
@ Steve
Okay, I know this is going to be difficult for you, but try putting yourself in someone else’s place: Perhaps your parents told you about the Russians parking nukes in Cuba, AKA the CUBAN MISSLE CRISIS. Seriously: do you really expect them to be so naive as to believe that these missles have no other purpose than defense? Are you so naive as to believe it?
As a freedom loving Russian I most of all detest the effect that official Russian propaganda have on russian sitizens. Gang -ho shauvinism is prevaling unfortunately among my compatriots.
This can be the gravest legacy of KGB regime even if and when the latter finishes.
Chloe,
Please ask your guess what kind of democracy Georgia is building when Saakasvili is always in readiness use the soldiers to clamp down on opposition demonstration?
Russia talks about genocide in S. Ossetia and that it took action against it.
What about Russia genocide in Chechnya? Isn’t that a double standard?
Doesn’t Chechnya want freedom from Russia? Doesn’t Chechnya like Ossetia also want independence?
And I do not think the president of Russia can be trusted. I mean the signs were there in the last G8 summit. He gave his word to Gordon brown (among others) that he was going to support sanctions against Zimbabwe. But he went back on his word the next day. And we see the same old thing with the current plan drawn out by Sarkozy.
He seems to be a puppet…and maybe you like I have guessed who is the puppeteer (Hint:- V. P____)
You would think Russia would learn that the reason these countries don’t like them is because of the way Russia treats them.
The Russians will never win the real respect they desire as long as they behave in mean, bullying, lying ways.
Their neighbors will not like or trust them.
I lived in the Czech Republic, and they were treated horribly during the Soviet occupation. They were all miserable.
@Steve,
The far left never ceases to amuse you just as the double standard of the west never ceases to amuse me. The war can wage war and kill innocent people and destroy a whole country and we describe it as “SELF DEFENSE”. When others do it, we describe it as barbarism.
The US has continually chosen to support regimes that have NO semblance of Democratic society ie Vietnam, Iraq in the 80’s. The US is once again leading the West done a path of confrontation and aggression…the Russians definitely are on the same path, but the US claims to hold higher ideals of human safety and freedom…America truly is the home of the hypocrite.
Whatever we may think about Russia’s role in the conflict, it’s clear that the Georgian political class has failed its people.
Depending on your point of view, it either acted aggressively towards the South Ossetians or it took the bait lain by the Russians.
Both scenarios are unforgiveable.
New cold war or not, the least we can hope for is sophisticated foreign policy.
@ Mohammed
What entire nation has been destroyed? If you look at Iraq, it’s iraqis killing each other, and outsider religious whackjobs doing the killing.
Steve, the US told to Saddam that he and his two sons had to leave Iraq in 48 hours, not because of some incident in which Iraqis had killed hundreds of US civlians, but because of alleged WMD that were not there.
Medvedev did not tell Saakhasvili and his two daughters to leave Georgia in 48 hours. He intervened in Georgia because of the killings of hundreds of Russians. Russia will not overthrow the Georgian government.
B.t.w., wasn’t the US involved in the coup against Chavez? Didn’t the military officials who perpetrated that failed coup live in Florida now?
Whether or not there is another cold war brewing – the values of those running russia are still shaped by the cold war as are the leaders in the U.S.
How do the values of younger russians differ from the russion leaders of today? And what will happen to the government of Russia when these youngsters mature into leaders of their country?
jeff
If you tell me if i like the war i would never like it, war is never a solution. But Russia is coming back into world stage to balance the power. Whatever the west say its Russia now who is playing the ball. High energy prices,energy to Europe. They have lots of power to contradict Great USA..
I hope this will change USA’s “do whatever they want” style.
Again, GET ENERGY INDEPENDENT and russia’s military will turn into a giant bucket of rust, like it’s current Navy. Russia will have NO power if europe becomes energy independent.
The U.S. has respected China’s vital interests much more than it has Russia’s–be it the Korean Peninsula or Central Asia, where the Shanghai Cooperation Organization demanded the U.S. leave a couple countries.
As a side note, it irks me that the Eurasia expert demanded not to be interupted but proceeded to cut off Mr. Khrushchev.
@Steve,
Prior to the American invasion of Iraq, was there anything like roadside or suicide bombings in Iraq?
I don’t believe that the Cold War never real ended, rather, it was just went dorment, as Russia
re-positioned itself. The current Russian leadership are still the legacy, Soviet Aparachics, who are now ruling a totalitarian state, under a new name. Russia has begun to establish their economic power and are now flexing their military might. The fact that the U.S. was not quck enough to help fill the vaccuum, when the USSR collapsed, has also exasperbated the problem.
Steve 6:42PM
“Ah, the far left never ceases to amuse me. War is bad if the US does it, but it’s okay if Russia does it. Ever wonder why russians are SO hated in eastern europe, it’s because how they treated the people in those countries. But the far left will always love Russia, and must be thrilled that something resembling”
Great response Steve, typical from a rightwinger with no ground to stand on. I believe the prior post was trying to point out the hypocracy of American foreign policy concerning it’s invasion of a sovereign nation and then it’s response to Russia doing the same. Both seem to revolve around natural resources and sphere of influence. Of course Georgia is on Russia’s border and therefore much more relevant to it’s security situation. What would we have done if something similar happened in our neck of the woods? Do you remember the Monroe Doctrine? Cuba, El Salvador, Gautamala, Nicaraugua, greneda, haiti…
@ Steve
To clarify, I don’t think it’s okay that Russia invaded Georgia, it was brutal revenge, not defense of S. Ossetia. In fact, I don’t think it’s right that any of the superpower countries are invading smaller countries and imposing their will. That being said, I agree with you completely about energy independence. I completely support abandoning our militaristic perspective and focus on becoming energy independent and fixing our economy, for once.
@Justin
I’m curious, did the US kill millions like the Soviets did? how many millions died under Stalin? I forgot, the US is so evil. USA = bad, Russia = good. Maybe Russia needs to turn off some energy spigots again to blackmail some neighbor that isn’t doing what Russia tells them what to do.
@ Mohammed Ali
The United States invaded Afghanistan in response to bin-Laden, shielded by the Taliban, murdering 3,000+ Americans 9/11/2001. There is no rational person that believes that the Taliban was anything other than a repressive band Muslim extremists practicing brutality in its purest form.
Since we have been there we have poured billions trying to bring that country out of the medeival age that the Taliban locked it into.
As for Iraq every intellegence service in the world believed that Saddam Hussein had WMD’s and was a real threat. Since not finding those weapons and it became apparant that Saddam was bluffing to hold off Iran Bush has proffered a multitude of excuses with the latest being “we’re bringing Democracy to the Iraqi’s”.
Trying to bring Democracy to that area in one fell swoop is like teaching a pig to fly.
We do not owe Afghanistan anything but Iraq owes us plenty.
@ Mohammad Ali
This topic is about Russia, not Iraq. But are you suggesting that the Americans are conducting roadside bomb operations or suicide bombings in Iraq? There are US soldiers in germany and Japan and Korea and there are no roadside bombs or suicide bombings there. Gee, I wonder what the real problem is.
Of course, a topic like this titillates the BBC, but especially WHYS. It seems that WHYS has become the de facto propagandist for pushing the US-UK aggressive agenda. I believe that the US wants to encircle and then loot Russia. If there is a new Cold War, then it is of the West’s making!
Why is Russia seen as the aggressor? Wasn’t it Georgia who first invaded South Ossetia savagely killing about 2,000 residents and Russian peacekeepers? Russia had every reason to respond to this provocation and is correct in knocking off Georgia military installations, infrastructure which the regime may use to disturb the peace again in that region, and hold the Georgian administration responsible for attacks against unarmed civilians. Yes, President Saakashvili should be tried as a war criminal.
But some Western countries, especially the US-UK ‘axis-of-regime change’ are hell bent on ‘taking back’ Russia now that Putin has reasserted Russian sovereignty, especially with its resources. Ironically, the massive miscalculation of the Iraq invasion and occupation, has benefitted Russian and –Iranian!–coffers.
Really, the US is going around the world and destabilizing regions. Let me count the ways. How about the invasion of Iraq and the possible breakup of that country? What about the US aiding and abetting Ethiopia invading Somalia? Then, there are all the color-coded revolutions in Georgia, Ukraine, and Kyrgyzstan which have little to do with democracy but mostly to do with encircling Russia and then have a conduit for extracting the resources of Central Asia. Then the US makes the effort to recognize Kosovo break off from Serbia, but supports Georgia. What gives? Add to that long list, the US choice to use grain for alcohol production and allowing price manipulation on the grain markets, thus sending the price of food to stratospheric heights the world over. If these acts are not destabilizing the world, then I could give a damn about any talk of a new Cold War.
I do not see Russia as threatening world peace. But the US, whose hegemony is coming to an end, has been responsible for much suffering in the world. Does the expression, “The Great Satan” ring a bell?
Get real.
How come my fellow US citizens ignore the violent, agressive actions of the United States? Is it OK for the US to act like a bully but not Russia? NO
I want to make a note about russia,it is terrible and awful country and their ex president putin wants to terrorize the world, and he begin it with Georgia. russian troops are killing and raping Georgians,The World MUST resist it.
I find it terrible how condescending some of your speakers are, especially from the US. Russia is a bully? How about the US? I don’t agree with what Russia is doing, but stop being so hysterical, and let’s try to get into a constructive dialogue based on respect.
i had to smile when GWB was critizising russia for invading a soverain nation on an unprovoked basis…..uhhhhhhh
@ W
In days gone by we used to listen to Radio Moscow for a great laugh. Today we have comments on WHYS….same belly laugh though.
The thirst for Freedom has been a human charcteristic since humans appeared on earth. Russia is a corrupt society where the Oligarchs are looting the country blind and now have engaged upon a path of re-enslaving those countries that successfully broke out of Russia’s orbit.
There is absolutely no comparison whatsoever with the good brought to the world by the United States compared to the evil forced down the throats of people enslaved by a brutal Governmant. England gave the world civilization. The United States gave the world Freedom. Russia murdered millions of its own citizens and like jack-booted Nazi thugs is trying to reenslave those it once ruled.
The world should not panic just as yet because the worste has not hit us as yet. Surely a next cold war is at bay because the world is at a tense moment in her histroy. We must ensure that during this time of tribulation we must respect the less fortune, the opressed and the human beings being taken disadvantage of.
@Dan
I completely agree. Many people try to compare actions of the US to actions of Russia and they don’t compare. I do not agree with the actions this administration has taken but none of it compares with the autrocities committed by former USSR leaders against their own citizens.
I believe the Russians are getting the attention they want by their provocation of the Georgians. The Russians want to prove a point against the Americans but they must be very careful not to start a new cold war.
~Russia in Georgia,
I have to agree that putting “StarWars” anti-missile missiles in Poland to protect (who?) from “rogue nations” is aggressive and horrible foreign policy.
Placing these weapons in Poland appears to be a slap in the face of Russia to me. And it perpetuates the hallucination that in the future there be missiles flying about. Huge expense. What is the up side?
@ Ofran Ghana,
So . . . what was Georgia trying to provoke by shelling South Ossetia? World peace?
there is a huge difference between USSR and current russia. the ussr was driven to ruin by massive military investments, without a truely reliable source of income, plus the year in year out metrics of the 5 to 10 year plans did not allow for any felxebility. now russia has it’s own oil, it’s well functioning mafia, and x-amont of justifications to invade their former terretories we ought to very careful on how to interact. their army might be rust-buckets now, but i am not sure about that in 5 years time. you might be amazed at what oid money can buy.
J
@ pdxmike
I think that we have seen that Reagan’s vision you dismissingly call “Star Wars” has become a workable system. With the Russians delivering nuclear material to the Iranians and 1+1 still equaling 2 we can assume Iran driven by radical Islam undeterred will launch a missile or at least threaten to.
It seems to e that the system in Poland would also protect Russia too but maybe Russia has other goals.
@ Dan,
England gave the world civilization. The United States gave the world Freedom. Russia murdered millions of its own citizens and like jack-booted Nazi thugs is trying to reenslave those it once ruled.
First, England did NOT give the world civilization – civilization predates “England” (the nation-state) by about six-thousand years. Second, CIVIL freedom predates the United States by about 2500 years. Third, you clearly have no idea what the acronym “Nazi” stands for, since the National Socialist German Workers’ Party (NSDAP) was exclusive to Germany. We don’t continue to bash Germany for what its leaders have done in the past. The West has the ability to strengthen ties with Russia, while asserting a firm hand in this crisis. But judging them all as “Evil” because of what Stalin did in the first half of the last century is just plain silly.
You might consider reading a book or two before popping off on things you clearly have no knowledge of.
It is surprising that PM Putin did not say to President Bush: ” Physician, heal thyself” especially after the Iraq episode! Only with time both sides of the Georgian internal problem in S.Ossetia and Abharzia and with Russia are coming to light and of the events that resulted in open clashes. Only an impartial investiagtion by a commission accepatble to both sides can perhaps reveal whta actually happened in the lead up to mutual violence. As opposed to “sovereignty and territorial integrity” advanced by President Saakashvilli Moscow has responded with claims of “genocide” -a thorny problem indeed even for the UN. The externalisation involving NATO of what seems essentially an internal governance problem within Georgia, but also affecting (big) neighbour Russia, has all the trappings of old cold war symptoms which no one in his right mind would want to cheer.
Nothing wrong to provide the Misile Defence to Eastern European’s nations. For practical implimintation of this US plan might require Alquida support too as presance of Alquida may not be denied in the region & might work better then NATO forces.
@ pdxMike
We are talking about the Bush Administration, right? On vacation most of his first year in office until 9-11, used the threat of wmd’s he knew never existed to invade Iraq, used spy satellites to watch Iraqi troop movements but still hasn’t managed to catch Osama bin Laden (though it’s generally accepted he’s in PAKISTAN), supports despots like Musharraf and Saakashvili while claiming to “spread Democracy,” has made a joke of the Bill of Rights . . . why not reincarnate a Cold War that was all but a relic of the 20th century?
@ Jack
Thank you for the wonderful rebuke but perhaps you might travel a bit more rather than get knowledge strictly from tabloids.
I think that anyone who has traveled to countries that were previously British Colonies will see a certain order, civility and civilization that does not develop on its own.
The men & women of the United States fought and died to set nations free. Somehow I just do not have any books that ascribe the same to Russia.
Nazism applied to many more nations other than Germany and in fact there was a Nazi party in America but maybe that was not in your book. In any event all recognized the Nazi metaphor and how it aptly applies to Russia latest actions.
So when you talk to me about “popping off about things I know nothing about” you need to personally apply that criteria.
Dear Jack,
Just check out this article and have a laugh at the hypocrisy and the ignorance of some neo con rednecks here who is singing the glorious eulogy of their forefathers with no clues about the “evil” they have committed.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar
@ Dan,
I took Jefferson’s admonition to heart – you know, the one about a republic functioning best with an informed and concerned electorate? A tabloid didn’t report how old civilization is, scholars did. A tabloid didn’t tell me about the Athenian city-state, I bothered myself to find out where our founding fathers got their ideas.
As for the books that you claim have never ascribed freedom-loving traits to Russia, you may consider researching Alexander Nyevsky, who rallied Russia against the Tatars and the Swedes or Pushkin who convinced the Czar to change his draconian policies or the recently deceased Solzhenitsyn who was exiled for speaking out.
Give it a rest Dan. I’m just smarter than you are
@ Jack
Smarter!!?? Naahhh…more arrogant.
@ Dan
“Nazism applied to many more nations other than Germany and in fact there was a Nazi party in America but maybe that was not in your book. In any event all recognized the Nazi metaphor and how it aptly applies to Russia latest actions.”
That’s just insane. You’re like the lady on the show today who wanted “Russia to behave itself” and then compared it to Hitler.
Any comparison between Russia’s actions in Georgia and Nazi Germany is simply a historical fallacy.
This debate about “freedom” I see is popping up again. Yes, Dan, the Russians HATE freedom. They HATE us in America for OUR freedoms and they want to KILL freedom and they want to KILL us.
Give it a rest Dan.
Squabbling with Russia over Georgia will only bring us harm.
Russia got only one direct allience i.e. India & indirect allies i.e. Isriel as all this triangle is in defence pacts & common intrests of syspecious nature. All these old pacts & relationship’s may not be ignored by US Govt while offering the US Misile Defance system to Eastern Europe.
As Corrupt India & Isriel have a long histry of dual policy of apportunist nature & possible contimination may not be ignored from both of them as street of Tal Avive are full with Russian prostetutes.
This is why Freedom from Indian Human desaster plan is the requirement of time as Govt food policy is based on “RAT & MOUSE FARMING” to feed the public even majority believe in Vegetrian diets. We may take the notice of family planning & Birth Controll violation’s too as India is growing with pride towards food desaster’s & immoralities to feed the public & causing trouble in neighbouring Pakistan as most of the food & grain’s been smuggled to India.
Presance of Indian terrorist organisation may not be ignored in Afghanistan as some of Indian’s pro Russian terrorists been captured by Pakistani Govt in Afghan refugee camp in Baluchinastan area of Pakistan. No doubt old Russian school of thought is available in Indian Govt.
@ Dan
I deal in facts Danny-boy, not opinions. Fact: England is a child of civilization, not its parent. The island’s first brush with civilization didn’t come until Rome subjugated it, when it was populated by Celts. England is a former colony of Germany – once called “Angle-land” name after the German tribe. Even our language is German based.
Fact: the United States did not invent Democracy. It was practiced in Athens, Greece some 2 millenia prior. That’s not my opinion. If you don’t believe me, take the issue up with Herodites.
Fact: Communism and Fascism are mutually exclusive. The Reichstag fire – set by Hermann Goering, Reichsmarschal of the Luftwaffe – was blamed on the Communists, to whom the Nazis were ideologically opposed. The last time Nazis were in Russia was during their retreat after losing the battle of Stalingrad.
It’s all in BOOKS Danny-boy, not tabloids. It’s not arrogance that urges me to pronounce myself smarter than you, but contempt for how you try to pass your uninformed fiction of as fact.
I love healthy debate – but once mudslinging comes into it, it become laborious and silly, please keep the debate on a civil level, please, thanks.
Will
@ Marty Lee
I was eating when I clicked on that link. I erupted with laughter, spitting my chef salad onto my monitor. I knew about it, but forgot to bring it up for Danny-boy’s edumacation. Next time you tell me I’ll get a laugh from something, I’ll take you more literally!
Sorry Will. I got carried away. Please forgive?
Mohammad Ali
The topic is not about Russia; it is about the signs that a new “cold war” is predictable. We know what is intended when “cold war” is spoken about. In a larger sense. “cold war” is an international relations between the USA government and the rest of the governments of the world. Under it the USA government carries out desperate efforts to contain and keep under its control, forever, all governments and nations of the world.
In this regard, recall George C. Marshall’s The United Sates must posses the power to thwart any action of a country that is likely to jeopardise American interest overseas, called globalism in 1945.
The issue is, therefore, about the violation of international laws on the relationships among governments and on war. It is in this regard that Russia is accused. But the engineer of the war, the USA government, and the president of Georgia who executed the engineering were ignored. The USA government is occupying Iraq, Afghanistan, and all the countries where it has military bases. With a very ernormous log in its eyes, living in a glass house, and as the engineer of the war, why shoudl it accuse Russia?
Why should there be , as you said, ” US soldiers in germany and Japan and Korea”? Are there Russian soldiers in those countries?
Speaking about road side bombing, how many land mines has the USA all over the countries that it is terrorising and globalising? Why has it refused to sign the treaties concerning the removal/destruction of land mines?
Let all governments come together and deal with the government of the USA. That is what I want. That is what I would have got governments to do of I were the president of my country. The sooner it is done, the better for the security , peace and brotherhood of the governments and nations of the world.
Prince Awele Odor
Lagos, Nigeria
@ Jack
Such humility is overwhelming. I am sure that you shine well enough to not be involved in the incandescent v. flourscent debate.
@ Dan
Nothing personal, but I only show humility when I’ve been defeated. I’m a bit like the Russians that way.
@ Prince Pieray C. P. Odor
I appreciate the “glass house” comparison. You may have noticed that there are a lot of Americans on this thread who would like for our country to behave more like the peacekeepers we claim to be, instead of the bullies we’ve become. It’s a bit hypocritical for us to talk about Russia pushing everyone around when, ever since the fall of Soviet Communism, we’ve been beating our chests, touting our solitary status as “THE” world superpower.
But neither should we be naive about the intentions or the capabilities of the re-emerging Russia. We lucked out during the Cuban Missile Crisis: Khruzchev and Kennedy were both committed to a peaceful resolution. Had it been Brezhnev and the current U.S. President, George Walker Bush, the outcome would have been very different, and not for the better.
The last eight years has changed how the rest of the world sees us. We vote, we speak out, but ultimately, how we are perceived by the rest of the wold comes down the the face that our leaders put on us. Medvedev would do well follow the leadership of Gorbechev and Kruzchev, and Bush would do well to follow the foreign policy examples set by his father and President Kennedy.. But we would all do well to remember that as people, we wear our own faces, and not those of our leaders.
In the zoo don’t mess with the bear. The Zoo indeed, because savage nations are you all. You are ruled by the military whom have enslaved the minds of their people, to think that they are even free.
The dialog laid out before you is used to blame other countries and not your own government for their abuse against you. Your country’s government they tell you they are trying to keep you out of other countries hands while they control your thoughts through the only dialog allowed you to hear, contemplate, speak and act on, else you are a enemy.
Russia allowed the pretence of freedom and independence knowing that if a person thinks they are free they begin to create and produce what they wouldn’t want to otherwise. The States allowed to call themselves independent don’t seem to have fathomed that.
@ Steve,
Maybe Russia needs to turn off some energy spigots again to blackmail some neighbor that isn’t doing what Russia tells them what to do.
Russia has its own bargaining chip – energy. The West have theirs – money. When the ‘rogue’ states don’t comply with the west’s demands they get economic sanctions. So it’s just a case of the pot calling the kettle black.
@ Lubna,
In a world of islands, I’d borrow your phrase and say “Let their own fire burn their own wood”. Unfortunately in an ever interconnected global village, what happened between the superpowers will affect us all – voluntarilty or otherwise.
The island’s first brush with civilization didn’t come until Rome subjugated it,
———————————————————————————————————
———- My dear Jack, you made some excellent points about civilization, but you carried on too long and knocked yourself out.
Many, many great civilizations long before Rome and the Celt’s influence in this area of the world is predominate of all the cultures. They show up everywhere.
This whole Georgia/Russian discussion reminds me of ye olde playground action. Lots of opinions and other openings, and not much veracity.
This conflict too will pass, but until people start producing smarter, more noble people, these polluting, destructive conflicts to continue. It’s the history of the world long before the Romans ever arrived on the stage.
I really don’t see anyone addressing the basic topic of why people and political leaders are doomed to deadly disputes like some dueling animals in the wild, actually worse than animals.
This just a minor black eye compared to the beating GDubs foreign policy has taken. Be funny if so many weren’t dead. Folks just need to vote smarter, demand more from leaders, and not make up so much nonsense.
@Dan
“England gave the world civilization. The United States gave the world Freedom.”
When Gandhi was asked his opinion on western civilization, he simply remarked that it would be a good idea. What a laugh – England brought despair and the shackles of colonialism and slavery to millions.
You’re smoking some strong stuff.
Some folks here have commented that since the US is at war against both Afghanistan and Iraq that it is too weak to challenge Russia about South Ossetia.
I suggest that it is a mistake to underestimate the ability of the US to mobilize for war if it is called to do so.
I just hope that better minds than Bush/Cheney/Rice/PNAC prevail in this very dangerous game for control of the worlds Oil.
And we would all be better off if we all became energy independent from Oil.
If Russia government before accuse USA government, NATO, United Nations and Human Right of letting washington and her allies to carrying wars in some part of world and to find what was the cause of 9/11 then the USA gov’t and NATO wouldn’t created drouble in her borders but now Russia government Declare war, if they afraid of propaganda of USA Gov’t and NATO then it will to worst for them now and future. There is no other place for Russians to escape because they are in the end of north pole therefore, either you to stop these political propaganda and destabilzations or you surrender of propaganda full of cole war. If some others leaders want join the USA gov’t and NATO propaganda show both NATO and Washington weak militarily but active of propaganda then they will not join these loser teams. But I’m neither support propaganda, cole war nor the hot war but may aim is if there will be peace for both side of you but you are the one who to decide between death and life since you are the one carry the guns.
Living in the United States i have first hand seen what President Bush has done to our country. Because of him we are in a financial decline, in a war that no one wants to be in. Because of him we are spending money that should be going to health care and organizations that need the help(especially schools), and instead we are funneling the money to a war the President started. A war where the people we are occupying don’t even want us there anymore. George W is like a big bully. He thinks that by threatening Russia, and supposedly standing up for the little guy, that Russia will back down to the so called “Might” of the USA. I can understand why the Russian president feels like he has been threatened. George W is a conqueror. Supposedly in America people are free to be who they are. If that was true then why is the President trying to push our ways onto other countries. Obviously it didn’t work in Iraq. And now he is trying to push around Russia? Good luck W. Don’t start a war which the majority of the people don’t want, with a country that we have been on steady terms with for years. W said that he wants his presidency to be remembered and that it definately will. Leave Russia alone. Don’t try and help unless they ask for it. Ask for all terms in writing if they do. Open the channels of communication. And for bobs sake, JUST LISTEN TO EACH OTHER!!!!
He started warmongering on day 1 and hasn’t stopped! The man needs war, chaos, confusion and, above all, a gullible, apathetic citizenry bent on comforts and conveniences and frightened beyond clear thought. Bush requires drama and fear and threats to dull the world to his further intents! If he can’t use Iran, he’ll use Russia! If he can’t wage a hot war, he’ll start a cold one! Whatever it takes to distract, while his puppeteers and corporate masters rape the planet gathering power and wealth in their bloodied path. What is beyond belief and credence is that the world’s leadership remains deaf and blind to this man’s outrages. What is beyond belief and credence is the thought that indeed they may be neither deaf nor blind…
The start of “the bad old days”? Don’t think so because there’s the different world now. Generally, it isn’t the right point of view from which to describe the political situation at the present time. No war, cold or hot unless you cram in missiles everywhere. The Russia-bashing campaign we all have been witnesses of, with all these pathetic claims taking out the trash to the man to cover up lies has been designed as a supporting action for putting the US missile base in Poland right from the start. Bush is in a rush to do that while he’s on his last legs. That’s it. We always kick off talking about democracy and always end up having another US military hardware installed.
I just hope that Russia keeps its head and does not take the bait . With Poland now finally signing the defence missile deal with America, with the backing of their people, the American puppet Saakasvili’s seemingly insane move into South Ossetia seems to make sense. Russia made a move as hoped for and is now the aggressor , America to the defence. When America needs a war it starts taunting, as with Iran when they were just starting to reform, called them part of the axis of evil. Maybe Russia is a better bet as they can incorporate Europe’s military in Nato and by reviving memories of the cold war, when America was still the international hero, erase some of the current unpopularity caused by the Iraq war.
It looks like all this circus of winding up Gerogians was to clinch the missile deal in Poland and perhaps, later on the Czech Republic & Ukrain also. With this the Bush Admin. is trying to create a mess for Barak Obama, who, it seems is very likely to become the next president and in the process make sizeable chunk of cash. No wonder they had 9/11.
Reply to Jack August 19, 2008 at 11:09 pm
@ Dan
Jack, I sympathise with the religiously moral or morally humanistic Americans whose identities, honour and dignity are being soiled and damaged by their government.
I have done my own thinking, analysis, evaluation and judgment, and taken my position. You religiously moral or morally humanistic Americans must do something to redeem your identities, honour and dignity.
As my defence of my decision, I recommend that you read the accusation of the British government by the Colonies and see how much greater your government has surpassed the crimes of, or its charges against, the British government. Why should the words of the Colonies , the rights of the people to change a government that violates the wishes, rights and freedoms of the people not apply to the government of the USA?.
I recommend also that you read the warnings that were given by Mr. George Washington, the first president of the USA, against bellicose, extreme hatred for one government and extreme love for another government, and his advise on the best conduct that befits a great nation.
Governments and nations should ACT NOW against the USA government. Woe betides that government that shall stand in the way of moral, responsible, peace-loving and security-conscious governments in the world at this time when the lives of peaceful nations and the brotherhood of men are very seriously threatened by the government of the USA.
Prince Awele Odor
Lagos, Nigeria
@Suresh
“When Gandhi was asked his opinion on western civilization, he simply remarked that it would be a good idea.”
haha
That’s right. India is the peak of civlization and human development. Why don’t you get rid of your overwhelming poverty and social retardation first, and then criticize others.
Good question, but not likely. The recent conflict in Georgia and the contention regarding U.S. military presence in Poland are foreseeable milestones in the drawn-out process of major powers re-establishing geo-political boundaries which will continue for some time to come. It has little to do with clash of ideologies and more to do with redefining the balance of power in Central Asia and Eastern Europe. The perceived U.S. “encirclement” of Russia, admittedly, smacks of “cold-warrior” mentality from the current U.S. administration , but the application of this policy in Cerntral Asia can be viewed as more of an attempt to secure the vast mineral resources in the region rather than an American advance for military advantage to achieve ideological ends, which sadly, threatens Russia’s position just the same. Russia has been playing a skilled game in the recent years using energy as their trump card, but Russia needs to appreciate the eventuality that its energy stranglehold on Europe can’t be maintained indefinitely.
Suresh,
This is what I am tryig to tell world that Ghandhi was not an original leader the way he was because of the way he been treated in English society.
To fight with English hipocracy he was big time hiprocate.
To fight with English double standard & bias attitute he was internally big time bias & sincear with old timer Hindoo society full of hate with all immigrants of India including Muslim’s & Christine’s.
This is what we can observe in Jewish Isrieli Society too. To me all this sound like emotional condition, which is temporary & take century to expell.
hi, let it be back same as b4 .
the cow boys were very polite, they use to send peace corps to the rest of the world.
it is good the world to be balanced. the world is rotating 800 miles per hour you don’t feel do you?
yes you don’t, why cause you are in it (planet earth).
THE POPULATION OF ASIA IS 4 BILLION, THE REST OF THE WORLD IS ONLY 2.5 BILLION WE NEED THE BALANCE.
putin promised to do the balance. let it be.
we want world WAR III.after that no more nukes, the nations will only use sticks and stones to fight.
putin.
Powerful nations are constantly in competiton.When one is impeded by serious errors which as in Iraq the US is slowly twisting in the wind.,others will seek to gain influence in controversial areas.A new cold war “NO” but a more assertive Russia emerging from years of crisis and misery .The revolution did nothing but replace one tyranny with another but the fall of the Soviet state was a trauma to the national identity and pride.A new era is emerging where the resource rich nations will increasingly pusn for thier place at the diplomatic table .EU and the US must recognize the reality and anticipate problems which can cause conflict.and develop policies which show resolve and reason.To cast competitors as enemies is folly and ofen masks ulterior motives such the neo-con demonization of Iraq and Iran in the interest of Isreal We must define more clearly our national interests and recognize that other nations ,but most particularly great powers ,have legitimate interests as well .Kowledge is power and we must be open to discussion of problems as they arise Any fool knows that if you poke someone in the eye long enough he will react violently..the Arabs with 9/11 and the Russians in Georgia .All actions have consequences.A nation is judged by the quality of its leadship.America take note in Nov 2008 !
Prince Awele Odor
Lagos, Nigeria
maybe rant and rave against your owns goverment incapabilities and failures before you tell other countries what to do. nigeria is a cesspool of violence and corropution. go clean it up and then come back and lecture the usa on what to do.
Having just read the above comments to this question, I wonder where some of you really think they come from or who they are. Ponder, and digest for a momement, The Russian Federation, with their new President Medvedev, Punch and Juddy,(Putin’s pulling the strings, or hand up the back)Show. Try looking from above as a neutral, and you will see what Georgia has and will have to oppose, if the Cold War(Great Depresion Or War), the links (pipelines)that pass through it terrority [Gas or Oil]way trigger. I really suggest that most of you have an INTERNAL SCAN, or enter for the Olymipic Diving as as most of you are already in the PIKE Position, where both ends meet, and one end normally gets trapped. Try going back for the last three centuries and What happens at the START. With a border dispute they cannot be granted NATO Membership. Keep a list of your engery bills for the next year.
Pihlip
Having just read the above comments to this question, I wonder where some of you really think they come from or who they are. Ponder, and digest for a momement, The Russian Federation, with their new President Medvedev, Punch and Juddy,(Putin’s pulling the strings, or hand up the back)Show. Try looking from above as a neutral, and you will see what Georgia has and will have to oppose, if the Cold War(Great Depresion Or War), the links (pipelines)that pass through its terrority [Gas or Oil]may trigger. I really suggest that most of you have an INTERNAL SCAN, or enter for the Olymipic Diving as as most of you are already in the PIKE Position, where both ends meet, and one end normally gets trapped. Try going back for the last three centuries and What happens at the START. With a border dispute they cannot be granted NATO Membership. Keep a list of your engery bills for the next year.
Pihlip
there is no need to lie to you all,this is the start of NATOs not so smart strategies to be put in the open.Russian should only worry about NATOs anthrax and power of propaganda.
THE LAST DON
uthiru,kenya.