Talking points 20 August.

Hello, Kate with you again this morning. Thanks to Will for moderating last night.

Both Nelson and Will suggested topics relating to homosexuality that have got you all talking on the blog.

Nelson contacted us with a suggestion for a debate – the first gay church in Nigeria, the House of Rainbow, is openly promoting a gay congregation in a country where homosexuality can be punishable by 14 years in prison. Last month Davis Mac-Iyalla, a Nigerian activist who campaigns for gay rights and changing attitudes among the Anglican Church in Nigeria had to take political asylum in Britain because of his work.

So is the first openly gay church in Africa a brave step forward for equality? Or is it an inflammatory move that will offend traditional African values? Can homosexuality ever be accepted in the church? Tell us what you think.

On a similar theme of mixing religion and homosexuality, Will pointed us to this case of an American lesbian who successfully sued her Christian doctors who refused to artificially inseminate her because of their religious beliefs. Should the right to be a parent be respected without reference to sexuality?

Luz Ma on the blog says “The desire to have children and the ability to be a good parent are not exclusive of heterosexuals. Homosexuals can be amazing parents.”

But Steve on the blog points out that homosexual sex doesn’t naturally lead to children. So should other options such as adoption should be considered instead?

What do you think?

252 Responses to “Talking points 20 August.”

  1. August 19, 2008 at 20:16

    I’m moderating tonight, Nelson.

  2. August 19, 2008 at 20:19

    The decision was made after two Christian doctors refused to artificially inseminate a lesbian undergoing fertility treatment.

    The doctors said that would have gone against their beliefs and instead told the patient how to inseminate herself.

    Guadalupe Benitez, 36, changed doctors and has since had three children.

    She sued the North Coast Women’s Care Medical Group in 2001, arguing that doctors were subject to law banning businesses from discriminating on the basis of sexual orientation.

    “It was an awful thing to go through,” Ms Benitez was quoted as saying by the Associated Press news agency.


  3. 3 nelsoni
    August 19, 2008 at 20:21

    @ Will. Welcome. please you can modify the post to reflect the present situation. It was taking a bit too long so I decided to step in temporarily.

  4. 4 steve
    August 19, 2008 at 20:23

    @ Will

    Why are people who can’t naturally have children wanting children and having them in the first place? Sorry, but if you are homosexual and only have homosexual sex, you can’t have children. That’s how nature works. It’s also why 80 year old women can’t have kids without the intervention of science. That’s nature. Accept it.

  5. August 19, 2008 at 20:24

    A 14-year-old has told Manchester Crown Court how he and another boy were forced to flog themselves until they bled during a Muslim ceremony.

    The teenager said Syed Mustafa Zaidi made them flog themselves with a whip which had chains and blades attached, as part of a Shia religious ceremony.

    He said the other boy, aged 15, was also forced to do “the knife thing” in Levenshulme, Manchester, on 19 January.

    Mr Zaidi, 44, of Station Road, Eccles, denies two counts of child cruelty.


    With those two stories – has the world become insane?

  6. August 19, 2008 at 20:25

    Your post is fine, Nelson – leave it as is. 🙂

  7. 7 Angela in Washington D.C.
    August 19, 2008 at 20:25


    I read this story and thought you might enjoy it. Better to Be Fat and Fit Than Skinny and Unfit

  8. 8 Don
    August 19, 2008 at 20:25

    I recall a discussion a few day ago about homosexuality. Does today’s topic for discussion have to go that route again?

  9. 9 Angela in Washington D.C.
    August 19, 2008 at 20:27
  10. August 19, 2008 at 20:28

    @steve, i totally agree with you.

  11. August 19, 2008 at 20:28

    Don –

    I have been out of the loops for a few days, but was the discussion about lesbian couples having children?

  12. 12 nelsoni
    August 19, 2008 at 20:28

    @ Steve. Well said. You can’t eat your cake and have it.

  13. August 19, 2008 at 20:29


    But many homosexual couples want children; and they do have them, and raise them.

  14. 14 Julie P
    August 19, 2008 at 20:30


    If you do not want to discuss the topics Will suggested you are more than welcome to suggest one of your own. Feel free to contribute whatever you like.

  15. August 19, 2008 at 20:30

    Now that the world is going crazy with insane decisions by leaders that could lead to chaos, can we continue our discussion psychiatric test for those aspiring for leadership?

  16. 16 nelsoni
    August 19, 2008 at 20:30

    @ Don. I really don’t remember a discussion on homosexuality on this blog in recent days.

  17. 17 Angela in Washington D.C.
    August 19, 2008 at 20:32

    I apologize for posting twice. I did not realize the comment was going through.

  18. August 19, 2008 at 20:34

    @portlandmike, why should homosexuals want children?

  19. 19 nelsoni
    August 19, 2008 at 20:35

    @ Mohammed Ali, we can probably start by examining the rationale behind certain decisions some world leaders take.

  20. 20 Angela in Washington D.C.
    August 19, 2008 at 20:37

    @Mohammed Ali

    Why shouldn’t homosexuals want children? I think it is ridiculous to sue because someone did not want to artificially inseminate you, but she went somewhere else.

  21. 21 steve
    August 19, 2008 at 20:39

    @ Portlandmike


    But many homosexual couples want children; and they do have them, and raise them.”

    I want a yacht, I want a supermodel girlfriend who is down to earth, has a charming personality, and isn’t materialistic…. Am I going to get these things? Probably not. Though it’s theoretically possible. But it’s impossible for a homosexual to engage in homosexual sex and have children. What about single men that want children but have no willing mother? Shouldn’t they have this “right” to have kids too? Think of all the computer nerds, basement morlocks whose lines will end. Should they not be able to to have the benefit of science as well?

  22. 22 steve
    August 19, 2008 at 20:41

    @ Angela

    you get a lot more attention when you sue someone. I wonder if they wanted attention more than they wanted the child. And if so, I truly pity that child.

  23. 23 Shirley
    August 19, 2008 at 20:42

    I came across an interesting story in Yahoo News:
    Interaction between Language and Math

    Olympic Detentions
    Graffiti Artist pro-Tibet Activist Detained in China
    apparently, he uses lasers instead of paint

  24. 25 Shaun in Halifax
    August 19, 2008 at 20:47

    I was having a discussion with my girlfriend today and we were discussing affirmative action re: the pros and cons. She asked me how I’d feel about it if whites were the minority and there were legislation guaranteeing them work. I replied that AA will never happen with whites, because the whole point of it was to take hegemony away from white people and make employment more equitable.

    It was an interesting reversal of roles and led me to ask a question: will white people ever be able to get away with pulling the race card?

  25. 26 Don
    August 19, 2008 at 20:50

    @ Will, Julie P, Nelsoni, and anyone else who objected to my comment !!!

    my contribution as requested !!!!

    Read the following.


    does music influence how people behave? Should parents check what their teenagers are listening too?

  26. 27 nelsoni
    August 19, 2008 at 20:53

    @ Psychiatric Tests, any one interested can take a look this article: Aspiring Political office holders should undergo Psychiatric test. On a general note, this can also apply to leaders else where.

  27. 28 Jens
    August 19, 2008 at 20:57


    this report sends a cold shiver down my spine.

    What do you mean there are human rights and it is Ok to sacrifice life and limb for some stupid olympic opening


  28. 29 Venessa
    August 19, 2008 at 20:58

    Shaun ~ I think not.

  29. 30 steve
    August 19, 2008 at 20:58

    @ nelsoni

    Wow. I wish they would do psychiatric tests in the US. I betch 99% of our politicians (and I presume everywhere else) would get diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder. If you recall, even John Edwards, after he got busted for his affair, admits he’s a narcissist. YOu basically have to be to want to be a politician.

  30. August 19, 2008 at 20:58


    Your call to perfection, that is, that if homosexuals get to have children, then you should get to have a model for a wife, or unmarried men ought to get to have children distorts the issue.

    Gays bond in happy stable homes. They do have children.

  31. 32 nelsoni
    August 19, 2008 at 20:59

    @ Don. excellent!!. This story was aired this morning on BBC focus on Africa. Of course music affects the way some people behave but not every one. Parents have a role to play especially in the formative years but I also recall that there used to be a rating system for music. I remember seeing this label on CD’s years back “PG EXPLICIT LYRICS” I wondered what happened to that now.

  32. August 19, 2008 at 21:00

    @angela, homosexuals know that it is not possible for them to mate and have children. I thought the idea of becoming a homosexual is to avoid having children.

  33. 34 Shirley
    August 19, 2008 at 21:05

    Religious Extremism

    Will, the
    story about the youth who were forced to injure themselves is disturbing. We Shia Muslims have scholarly books on Islamic law that make it very clear that we are not to bring or allow injury or any kind of harm to children. I have seen a definition of physical injury as causing bleeding, though I am not certain of the reference; and I know that our books of law specifically mention that we are prohibited from inflicting so much as a red mark on others. At that point, we would owe the other monetary compensation. We are also prohibited from causing psychological harm to children. As far as I am concerned, the parents of these children are uneducated rogues who have no respect for Shia Islamic Shari`ah or common decency and moral values, and who base their extremist practises on culture. I know that others exist who do the same thing; and it makes me physically ill. I cannot even tolerate a person bleeding himself during Shia Islamic mourning ceremonies and strongly suspect that such acts are also impermissible according to our jurisprudence. The Qur’an orders us Muslims not to harm ourselves.

    Good to have you in the house tonight, Will. Thank you.
    Number of words: 208

  34. 35 Jens
    August 19, 2008 at 21:05


    the problem is that the vast majority of obese people is also incredably unfit. i just have to look at the human tubs of lard walking around in walmart, while huffing and puffing as if they have entered a marathon. or look at the cheeks hanging over the seats of the motorized shopping carts, which have to be there so that the grosey obese can go and shop for more carp. i look at these guys shopping carts and i am amazed at what they eat, no fruit or veggies, all processed and full of high fructose syrup, YUK. they should be made to have to park the furthest away from the door and have to walk to get their nasty cream cakes and fortified waste.

  35. 36 nelsoni
    August 19, 2008 at 21:06

    @ steve. That’s correct. If we have a greater ratio of sane in positions of power world wide, we would have less trouble in the world. Some of the decisions they take puts a question mark on their sanity …

  36. August 19, 2008 at 21:09

    @nelsoni, Mrs. Waziri is absolutely right. Only insanity will make one to loot the country’s coffers and leave millions in abject poverty.

  37. 38 steve
    August 19, 2008 at 21:09

    @ Mike

    “Gays bond in happy stable homes. They do have children.”

    But they can’t have children without the intervention of science. I’m sure a Cow could have a human child if science intervened. Maybe a human could give birth to a dog with the intervention of science. However, like homosexuals, they cannot do it without the intervention of science.

    I’m curious, why would homosexuals even want children if they aren’t even drawn to the opposite sex? Doesn’t that signal something is wrong with them, they want something that is the result of heterosexual sex, but aren’t attracted to the opposite sex? There’s not something wrong there? I know it’s PC to say there’s nothing wrong, but there is, because to have a child you need a man and a woman to have sex. We can go PC and ignore that fact, but it’s still fact.

  38. 39 Angela in Washington D.C.
    August 19, 2008 at 21:11


    There comes a time when people have to take responsibility for their actions. I listened to rap music that talked about pimps and gang life but I did not want to be a stripper, a prostitute, or join a gang. It is sad that kids today and adults do not always understand the difference between reality and fantasy.

    People need to take responsibility for their actions but since their parents will blame their action on their friends or music, nothing will every change.


    You may get a lot of attention suing these physicians but this is one reason insurance is so high. You have individuals suing doctors for stupid reasons. I am fine with lesbians but I don’t understand the point. Wouldn’t it be cheaper to have the kid the old fashioned way anyways. Since you are an attorney it is good for you when people sue!

  39. 40 Venessa
    August 19, 2008 at 21:14

    Mohammed ~ people are not homosexuals to avoid having children. It is their sexual preference.

  40. 41 Jens
    August 19, 2008 at 21:14


    the sense of offspring and the sense of being attracted to the same sex are two completly different emotions. why not let have a homosexual couple have children, which will be brought up in a loving relationship OF TWO PEOPLE being happy to care for the kid.

    i have much bigger issues with crack hoos pushing out 10 babies with brain damage. or kids brought into the world by teenagers, or kids borne to alcoholics, who use them as punch-bags.

    get of the back of gays, they are humans just like you and me. i for one can understan women being attracted to women. there are plenty of guys who are absolute dirtbags…..

  41. 42 Amy
    August 19, 2008 at 21:18

    If so many of you are opposed to homosexuals having children through scientific means, let them adopt! There are so many children in need of a loving parent. The same goes for a single man or woman. And just because you are gay doesn’t mean you don’t have love to pass on to a child. You don’t “become” gay to avoid having kids.

  42. 43 Julie P
    August 19, 2008 at 21:18


    I never objected to your intial comment. Feel free to contribute whatever you like on TP.

    I happen to feel that music can influence your mood while you are listening. My choices for music range from Andrea Bocelli to Jefferson Airplane to U2. Every one of them leaves me a different mood, yet meets a need at that time. I also enjoy silence and simply listening to the birds.

  43. 44 Venessa
    August 19, 2008 at 21:19

    Well said Jens!

  44. August 19, 2008 at 21:19

    If africa had at least 40% of sane leaders, with the vast natural resources, we would have been one of the developed continents. Insanity couple with the inability to lead has cause us dearly.

  45. 46 steve
    August 19, 2008 at 21:20

    @ Jens

    But shouldn’t it be a HUGE sign to you that if you are a female and are not attracted to men, then you shouldn’t be having kids? I don’t really see how this is much different than telling an 80 year old woman she can’t have kids. It’s also why I can’t have blue eyes, because they are brown. It’s time people accept what they are, and what their limitations are. If you are a lesbian, you cannot have kids unless you have sex with a man. For homosexual men, you cannot have a kid unless you have sex with a woman. That’s life.

    I’m serious, should single men, ones who can’t find a willing female, presuming such technology existed, be allowed to grow a child in a lab because they couldn’t find a woman?

  46. 47 Amy
    August 19, 2008 at 21:20



  47. 48 Angela in Washington D.C.
    August 19, 2008 at 21:20

    @Mohammed Ali

    I thoguht the same thing for a while. The only thing I want is to make sure that when I have kids, they won’t think it is normal for two men or two women to be together. I beleive in tolerance but I do not appreciate being told that I must accept something when it is against my beleifs. I do not judge but I don’t like it in my face. I know several homosexual people and I respect them but they realize how I feel and realize that I am able to have my opinion like they have theirs.


    I do not like looking at obese people but I realize that some are healthy. I come from very skinny parents. In high school I had to run 2 miles to graduate and this overweight girl (at least 5’6 and 260lbs) ran faster than me. I was so devasted because I weighed 105 but my mother told me a very important thing: Just because you are skinny doesn’t mean you are healthy. Although some people don’t like seeing obese people, when my parents got married they were bony. You could see their ribs when they went to the beach. My mother is now 52 and weighs 115. Although, I could be overweigh and healthy, I would rather be slimmer and a slow runner any day.

  48. 49 Amy
    August 19, 2008 at 21:21



  49. 50 Angela in Washington D.C.
    August 19, 2008 at 21:21


    You could always get contacts and get blue eyes.

  50. 51 Dennis
    August 19, 2008 at 21:23

    @ Will:

    Good Afternoon to my dear friends!!!!


  51. August 19, 2008 at 21:24


    You say, “But they can’t have children without the intervention of science. ”

    Of course they can have children without the intervention of science.

    Steve you ask, “I’m curious, why would homosexuals even want children if they aren’t even drawn to the opposite sex?”

    Being “drawn to the opposite sex,” and wanting to have children, are two different worlds. They aren’t mutually exclusive.

    Having read your posts for a while I get the impression that you don’t know any queers?

  52. 53 steve
    August 19, 2008 at 21:25

    @ Angela

    Blue contacts only make you eyes look blue. They aren’t actually blue. That would be like getting a life like baby doll, a really expensive one. It’s still not a real baby, though it looks like one.

    If basement morlocks are required to adopt (Even if they were allowed to) why should homosexuals be required to adopt rather than use science?

  53. 54 steve
    August 19, 2008 at 21:27

    @ Portlandmike

    Please explain to me how a lesbian can get pregnant without having sex with a man without the intervention of some kind of science or a donor. And how much DNA does the lesbian partner that doesn’t give birth to the child share with the child? That’s right. ZERO. Because you need a male to father a child.

  54. 55 Julie P
    August 19, 2008 at 21:29


    God, yes! It sure would solve a lot of problems. Since I live right down the street from the CDC and Emory University I think I’ll drop by on way home from work and demand they get started right away with this potential technology.

    “I’m serious, should single men, ones who can’t find a willing female, presuming such technology existed, be allowed to grow a child in a lab because they couldn’t find a woman?”

  55. 56 Lubna
    August 19, 2008 at 21:32

    Hi gang ! :-)… Actually it was me who started the “homosexuality” debate on the TP page last Thrusday… And I do totally agree with what our beloved Steve has just said about homosexuals wanting to have children… As for the story related to Islamic Shia religious rituals of what we as Muslim Shia call “Tatbeer” that our beloved Will has brought up : Al Tatbeer is an Islamic Shia ritual that the crowd of trust-worthy Islamic Shia scholars do have rather different opinions about… It’s actually a sign of expressing extreme grief, sadness, very high emotions, and protest against the so many horrific ordeals and tragedies that had happened to the sacred family of the Prophet Mohammed, the 12 holy Imams plus Fatima Al Zahraa, the daughter of the Prophet Mohammed many centuries ago… Al Tatbeer isn’t a must at all for Muslim Shiites, and only those of them with extremely high degrees of faith and surrender to Allah dare to practice it… Only males according to traditions are allowed to practice it… Some doctors I know practice Al Tatbeer every year at the tenth of Al Muharram, the 1st month of the Hijri year, inorder to express extreme grief, sadness, protest, and solidarity with Al Imam Al Hussein, the 1st generation grandson of the Prophet Mohammed, whose head was cut by the ancestors of the modern day Al Qaeda criminals 1400 years ago… One of those doctors has told me once that he does never feel pain while practicing it, and that his wounds heal in a magical speed… Some Islamic Shia scholars say that if Al Tatbeer leads to the disruption of the image of the Islamic Shia doctrine, then it shouldn’t be performed at all in the 1st place… With my love… Yours forever, Lubna…

  56. August 19, 2008 at 21:35

    @Venessa, they know that that sexual preference does not produce offspring. Steve put it just right, without the intervention, nothing will be possible for them.

  57. August 19, 2008 at 21:35


    Oh… I see … “or a donor.” So men can adopt, or use a donor, or surrogate. Gay women the same way. And, they can use a hand from science if they want their DNA in the mix? Sounds good to me.

    How about infertile couples? Ought they be able to use science to get their DNA down the line?

  58. 59 Angela in Washington D.C.
    August 19, 2008 at 21:38


    You may understand women being attracted to women but I don’t understand it. Although, I don’t care. I remember I was working with this gay guy and I asked him if he was attracted to a guy like I was attracted to a guy or if it was his hands or feet. He told me it was the same way I would be attracted to a guy. Just because some huys are scummy doesn’t mean a women must go to the other side.

  59. 60 steve
    August 19, 2008 at 21:38

    @ Mike

    “Oh… I see … “or a donor.” So men can adopt, or use a donor, or surrogate. Gay women the same way. And, they can use a hand from science if they want their DNA in the mix? Sounds good to me.

    How about infertile couples? Ought they be able to use science to get their DNA down the line?”

    Not them either. You weren’t meant to have kids in either scenario of being a homosexual or infertile. Doesn’t the world have enough people? and aren’t there plenty to adopt? how selfish does one have to be? How important do you think your “line” is? It’s a new life, not some trendy fashion accessary that’s a “must have”.

  60. August 19, 2008 at 21:42

    @ Nelsoni, Will et al, hi! Homosexuality, lesbianism, fornication and adultery are all immoral acts. By coincidence, some colleagues and i had an argument. Many people look at issues like only from a worldly stand point. If you chose to twist a normal order and meander your way around it, there will be consequences both religious and social. Same sex relationship defies science. So dont bite more than you chew.

  61. 62 Angela in Washington D.C.
    August 19, 2008 at 21:42

    I don’t think it really matters. Since women are going to continue to have artificial insemination if they want kids and it is an excellant alternative for homosexual couples. I don’t agree but if that is what you want to spend your money on- have fun.

  62. 63 nelsoni
    August 19, 2008 at 21:43

    Another Homosexual story for your consideration. Spirituality vs Sexuality: http://www.africanloft.com/sexuality-vs-spirituality-can-nigerian-gay-church-stand/ . First Gay church opens in Nigeria. Here, homosexuality is punishable by 14 years in jail. Why can’t gay people just leave the church alone. Should they always drag the church into their matters?

  63. 64 Shirley
    August 19, 2008 at 21:47

    It is frustrating to see people suffering because of bad diet and lifestyle choices. I wonder, though, whether they ever received a proper education about nutrition and health maintenance, and whether exercise was an encouraged and regular part of their developing lives. To what extent are we failing our children? Does anyone here remember learning to cook real food at mother’s side when growing up? How many heard that there is a time for indoor play and a time for outdoor play? How many of us helped to tend a family garden plot as youth? What are we teaching our children today?

    Number of words: 102

  64. August 19, 2008 at 21:49

    I cant fine any space in my human faculty to defend homosexuality. It is immoral and barbaric. Though others have their rights to a sexual preference. I just cant help it.

  65. 66 Venessa
    August 19, 2008 at 21:51

    nelsoni ~ the link isn’t working

  66. 67 Venessa
    August 19, 2008 at 21:51

    it is now…

  67. 68 Shirley
    August 19, 2008 at 21:51

    Religious Extremism
    This is not the first time that the story of the boys forced to bleed themselves during Ashura has made it to the BBC news. There is also a report from January and another from earlier this month.

  68. August 19, 2008 at 21:53

    @portlandmike, please answer Steve’s question. How can homosexuals remaining homosexuals have children without the intervention of science.

  69. 70 Jens
    August 19, 2008 at 21:56


    no it is not? what has the fact that you prefere the opposite sex to do with the instinct of having children and/or passing on your genetic material?????

    heck in nature you have plenty of homosexual interactions and the groupe of animals stillrears the yound. do you really think we as humans a free of our instincts?

    i have no proble in gays brining up children. heck look at us heteros, we have done a fine job of divorce, single parent families, screwing behind the back of partners etc.

    the quality of giving love does not depend on the preverence of dick or fanny. it soley depends on the ability to share your love and happiness with a child.

  70. 71 Venessa
    August 19, 2008 at 21:57

    FYI ~ Sheikh’s comments are going into the spam box again….

  71. August 19, 2008 at 21:58


    You say, “Not them either. You weren’t meant to have kids in either scenario of being a homosexual or infertile. Doesn’t the world have enough people? and aren’t there plenty to adopt? how selfish does one have to be? How important do you think your “line” is? It’s a new life, not some trendy fashion accessary that’s a “must have”.”

    I hear you. Accusing infertile or gay couples that want to have children with their own DNA as selfish, and following some ‘trendy fashion,” who are worthy of your scorn makes your opinion clear.

  72. August 19, 2008 at 21:59

    If people of Sodom and Gommorrah were allowed to relive, i bet they would have serious issue to raise. What is happening now that is so different the days of old. Do we owe the people of Sodom and Gomorrah apology?

  73. 74 steve
    August 19, 2008 at 22:01

    @ Mike

    Would you bring someone into the world, against their will, just because you felt like you were entitled to have them, even when it was physically impossible for the parents to have them on their own?

  74. 75 steve
    August 19, 2008 at 22:02

    @ Jens

    “no it is not? what has the fact that you prefere the opposite sex to do with the instinct of having children and/or passing on your genetic material?????”

    I dunno, maybe becuase it’s possible to have children when you have sex with the opposite sex but not when you have sex with the same sex? Just a guess.

  75. August 19, 2008 at 22:03

    @gay church, it sounds funny. A gay church, a heterosexual church. I think since god embraces everyone, the rogues and the arm robbers too will room have their own religious institution.

  76. August 19, 2008 at 22:05


    You ask, “Would you bring someone into the world, against their will, just because you felt like you were entitled to have them, even when it was physically impossible for the parents to have them on their own?”

    “Against their will?” Hunh?

  77. 78 Amy
    August 19, 2008 at 22:06


    Are gay people not allowed to believe in a high power now? I haven’t had time to read the link yet but by your comment, “Why can’t gay people just leave the church alone.” it makes it seem that you feel that way.

  78. 79 steve
    August 19, 2008 at 22:06

    @ Angela

    “I don’t agree but if that is what you want to spend your money on- have fun.”

    But what else should people be able to do if they have the money? This is childish behavior, because you can do something doesn’t mean you should do it. It’s almost like a I want this, and I want it right now tantrum type thing. If people have sex with the same sex, it’s not possible for them to have children. They should accept that and live accordingly.

    Does anyone know if in countries with socialized medicine, does the taxpayer pay for homosexual couples to use artificial insemination?

  79. 80 Amy
    August 19, 2008 at 22:09


    Maybe it is a Portland thing, but agree with Mike – HUH? It makes it sound like you feel a child actually has a say in whether or not they are born. If that is the case, why would a child choose to be born to an alcoholic, someone who smokes, etc.

  80. 81 steve
    August 19, 2008 at 22:09

    @ Mike

    ““Against their will?” Hunh?”

    Please show me a child who ever consenting to being born.

    Think also of the consequences the selfishness of the parents will cause. They will likely be picked on by classmates. If raised by two lesbians, there will be no father figure, which tends to result in low self esteem girls and feminized boys..

    The ME ME I WANT THIS attidude can harm people. But if people are truly that selfish, i obviously don’t expect them to consider the consequences of their actions.

  81. 82 Jens
    August 19, 2008 at 22:11


    OK even gays can have sex withe the opposite sex to have kids and adopt them. I know more than one such case. does it really matter if the seamen is introduced via penis or syringe? i think love for the child is the most important aspect.


    i was just mockingly saying i prefere women over men, mainly because they have more attractive “curves”. plus some guys are just plane idiots. of course that dose not imply that women are A) not idiots sometimes and B) becoming homosexual ist the answer to scumbags of the opposite sex.

  82. 83 nelsoni
    August 19, 2008 at 22:12

    @ Amy, Of course they are. They can believe in what ever they choose. I’m no theologian neither am I a religious person but the teachings bible on which the christian faith is founded clearly does not support homosexuality. They can form their own sect but should not use the name church because the church is a body that follows the teachings of jesus christ. Clearly homosexuality is not part of that.

  83. 84 Jens
    August 19, 2008 at 22:16


    i don’t think that gay men should be allowed to grow their kids in labs, BUT why not at home in a grow bag in at 37 degree C. what’s wrong with that? they could bond early on with their kid and harvest it after 9 months. i think i might just patent this idea.



  84. 85 Venessa
    August 19, 2008 at 22:17

    nelsoni ~

    “Doesn’t House of Rainbow’s mission contradict biblical principles?”

    You could ask that of religions……

  85. 86 Venessa
    August 19, 2008 at 22:18

    i meant other religions as well.

  86. 87 Shirley
    August 19, 2008 at 22:19

    Religious Extremism
    Lubna, assalamu `alaykum. I wonder if the situation has actually come to the point where most examples of bleeding for Ashura serve to tarnish the image of Shia Islam (the condition of guaranteed prohibition), given the coverage by the media, the unfamiliarity with the practise by non-Shia Muslims, and the objections against it by non-Shia Muslims. One even has to admit that it is not an overwhelmingly popular practise among Shia Muslims. It is allowed in the masjids and shrines? Or is it restricted to other Islamic centres that don’t qualify as masjids? Have you heard of the new tradition of donating blood to the Red Cross/Crescent on Ashura? What do you think of it? By the way, I have also heard other terms used for the bleeding, especially zanjir. But some of these terms apply to beating in general and not bleeding specifically. What term is most common for the specific practise of drawing blood according to the hijazi dialect of Arabic?

    By the way, in this particular case of Mustafa Zaidi and the two boys forced to bleed themselves, there was most definitely an unhygienic practise ocurring: Participants at the men-only event take it in turns, in small groups, to flog themselves… (from the 18 August 2008 story) “It” referred to the chain whip with blades. This is also shocking, because in the West, it is commonly known that sharing items that come into contact with body fluids in that way is an inherent health risk.

    Number of words: 249

  87. 88 Jens
    August 19, 2008 at 22:21


    can the church truely afford to seggragate people these days? where in the bible are homosexuals being segregated? if god has created ALL men equal, why are homosexuals less equal? If god created men would god not be a little homosexual? how come so many priest are abusing boys? finaly i have no recollection of christ having spoken out against homosexuals.

    you see these and many others issues are the reason that I am convienced god does not exist. there are just too many inconsistencies and too many christians, as well as other religions, are making the ruels up as they go along. it’s a game where the church is playing with too many jokers in their pack……

  88. 89 Jennifer
    August 19, 2008 at 22:23

    @Shirley- Religious extremism

    Thank you for posting the extra links. I was interested in knowing more about this story.

    @ Doctors refusing to A.I. a lesbian woman

    The doctors did not have the right to refuse to artificially inseminate the woman. Regardless of the doctor’s religious beliefs they were under the obligation to complete the procedure. They should have kept their personal bias out of it. We have laws that say that people can not be discriminated against because of skin color, religion, etc……..

  89. August 19, 2008 at 22:25

    Shirley –

    Is there any reason why you add the word count?

  90. August 19, 2008 at 22:25

    Steve, i’m right with you on this gay topic. Offsprings are the results of sex between a man and a woman. How can a homosexual want a child when the result of their sexual intercourse cannot bring forth offsprings?

  91. 92 steve
    August 19, 2008 at 22:26

    @ Jens

    “if god has created ALL men equal, why are homosexuals less equal? If god created men would god not be a little homosexual?”

    I believe that’s from the declaration of independence,and not the bible. Clearly, not all people are equal. There are pedophiles, serial killers, cannibals, etc out there.

  92. 93 Amy
    August 19, 2008 at 22:28


    Again, your logic makes me think that you feel that anyone who wants to have a child is selfish. I “wanted” to have children with my husband so I guess I am one of those selfish people. I would have even spent my money on science to achieve that goal if it hadn’t happened naturally and if that failed (which it does more than it works) we would have turned to adoption. Put us at the top of your list of selfish people.

  93. August 19, 2008 at 22:34

    Hi again gang ! ;-)… As far as I know, Christianity prohibits homosexuality… So how can you be a Christian priest or bisop or whatever while you’re continuing to do something that your own faith strongly prohibits ??! Isn’t that considered to be ”moral schizophrenia” ?! And as for other species of animals kingdom practicing homosexuality, it’s really very interesting that we did actually reach this point where we, human beings, the most superior creatures on this planet go and seek justifications for what we do by saying ”Well, other species of the animals kingdom just do the same thing”… With my love… Yours forever, Lubna….

  94. August 19, 2008 at 22:35


    You say that, “…the church is a body that follows the teachings of jesus christ. Clearly homosexuality is not part of that.”

    Jesus was totally opposed to divorce and adultery. No where does he comment on homosexuality. Leviticus has a couple passages abhorring homosexuality. Of course those ancient books of the Bible also tell us how to treat our slaves, and what not to eat, and what to burn on our alters.

  95. August 19, 2008 at 22:37

    Lubna –

    The same can be said for Islam.

  96. 97 Jens
    August 19, 2008 at 22:38


    you sure the declaration of independence mentions god’s homosexuality/

    you may have cut and past too much of my previouse opus 😉

  97. 98 Jens
    August 19, 2008 at 22:44


    we are still the monkeys that climed of the treezzzzz sometime ago. we might be able to rationalize, but our hormonal/endocrine system still reacts the way it does for many other animals. just look at the extrem similarities in genome accross the board. i know you god fearing people do not like to hear this since it clearly shows that a) the creater might not have been that creative or B) that evolution and not a creater, has figuered out on how to ensure survival of the fittest.

    homosexuality has always been part of living creatures, and we are nothing else but living creatures. why should humans be different/ that is just denying where we are from, but hell that is OK since some god fairy created us……

  98. 99 nelsoni
    August 19, 2008 at 22:45

    @ Portland mike, I am no theologian but I can assure you that the are specific references in the bible that clearly speaks against homosexuality.

  99. 100 Luz Ma from Mexico
    August 19, 2008 at 22:46

    By your comments about homosexuality & raising children, I gather that you don´t have children. The desire to have children and the ability to be a good parent are not exclusive of heterosexuals. Homosexuals can be amazing parents; I know a couple of them that are doing a really good job in that respect.

    By the way, I am heterosexual, married with two children conceived by natural means. I think homosexuals should be given the same opportunity as heterosexuals to procreate babies by artificial means and should have the right to adopt children. Like some WHYSers commented about: there are so many children in this world that need suitable parents!

  100. 101 nelsoni
    August 19, 2008 at 22:49

    @ Jens. We live a world where everything we do is governed by rules and laws. If a particular faith prohibits homosexuality why try to force your self on it, this is not common law where you can obtain a court order forcing the religious body to accept you. The rules say such conduct is not permitted. If you want to stick to your sexual preference fine but do it else where. Period!

  101. 102 Dan
    August 19, 2008 at 22:49

    Hi Gang.
    I was going to stay out of this one but I have a question and acomment.
    Do we abhor the homosexual or the act?
    As for homosexuals and children I only weigh in that the child have two loving parents who can present a male & female perspective to the child. Can two lesbians or gay men do that? I do not know.

  102. 103 Dan
    August 19, 2008 at 22:50

    @ Steve
    I have blue eyes …you do not want them…you sunburn too easily.

  103. August 19, 2008 at 22:52


    You say, “I can assure you that the are specific references in the bible that clearly speaks against homosexuality.”

    Yes there are, but Jesus in the NT comes out against divorce. One of the Ten Commandments is about adultery. And yet there are many divorced people, and adulterers welcomed into Christian churches.

  104. 105 Jennifer
    August 19, 2008 at 22:54


    I agree.


    The bible does say that homosexuality is wrong. However, it also tells us that we should love our neighbors. It tells us that we can be forgiven of our sins as well. I don’t feel that I have the right to judge anyone else. It’s not my place to judge them because I am not God. For people who think that homosexuality is a choice…..why would anyone make the choice to deviate from society and face ridicule? If a homosexual couple wants to have a child using science or adopt then they should go for it because it’s their choice. To say it’s wrong for a gay or lesbian couple to do so would be like me going to do the same and them saying that Native American women are not allowed. That would be wrong.

  105. 106 nelsoni
    August 19, 2008 at 22:55

    @ Venessa, I am not aware of any religion that supports homosexuality( I stand corrected on this one) . Clearly Homosexuality contradicts bible teachings. >

  106. 107 nelsoni
    August 19, 2008 at 22:59

    @ portland mike. The church does not chase homosexuals, after all Jesus christ dined with sinners; they are free to attend church but they trying to force the church into recognizing and to approve their sexual preference is not possible.

  107. 108 Jonathan
    August 19, 2008 at 22:59


    Jesus said nothing about or against homosexuality, and Christianity doesn’t per se prohibit it. Christ instructed us to treat each other with love and compassion. His message has been somewhat attenuated over the years and by the agendas of various institutions.

    How can priests molest children, of either sex? Because they are hypocrites, who preach one thing and practice another. Because people are imperfect. Christians are also instruced not to kill each other, but they do.

    The same mechanisms, weaknesses, and rationalizations that inspire or permit Muslims, who aren’t supposed even to make a red mark on another, to torture and kill each other.

    We must derive our morality from within–from our humanity.

  108. August 19, 2008 at 23:06


    And yet the churches have no problem recognizing divorces… and remarrying adulterers? These are issues that Jesus spoke out against.

  109. 110 Jonathan
    August 19, 2008 at 23:07

    If a tree falls in a forest and nobody hears it, does it make a sound?

    If a reactionary bigot says something predictably outrageous and nobody reacts, does he make a sound?

    I propose we find the answers by experimenting.

  110. 111 Venessa
    August 19, 2008 at 23:10

    nelsoni ~

    My comment wasn’t meant that homosexuality is supported by the bible but that the question I quoted was a bit ironic. There are other religions out there that “contradict biblical principles.” I was trying to point out that it’s not just the House of Rainbow that is guilty of the practice.

  111. 113 nelsoni
    August 19, 2008 at 23:10

    I must add at this junction, I abhor the act not the homosexual. I have come across nice and well behaved ones, outside Africa I must say because you will simply be signing your death warrant in Nigeria if you openly profess to be gay.

  112. 114 Luz Ma from Mexico
    August 19, 2008 at 23:18


    “Christ instructed us to treat each other with love and compassion. His message has been somewhat attenuated over the years and by the agendas of various institutions. ”

    Very well said!

  113. 115 steve
    August 19, 2008 at 23:19

    @ Jennifer

    “why would anyone make the choice to deviate from society and face ridicule? If a homosexual couple wants to have a child using science or adopt then they should go for it because it’s their choice. To say it’s wrong for a gay or lesbian couple to do so would be like me going to do the same and them saying that Native American women are not allowed. That would be wrong.”

    I don’t believe people choose to be gay, however some people choose to deviate from society and face redicule. Look at emos as an example.

    There’s nothing to stop a native amerian from having a child, but there is something to stop a homosexual, it’s called nature and needs the intervention of science.

    Does anyone recall the issue of designer defects in children of disabled people? Ie blind people deliberately wanting blind kids, or deaf parents deliberately wanting deaf kids? That’s an example of how selfish people can be when it comes to wanting kids.

  114. 116 Jonathan
    August 19, 2008 at 23:21


    That may be more instructive about the prevailing morality in Nigeria than about homosexuality, or homosexuals. It’s good to know that Nigerian society has resolved its more pressing issues, that corruption and brutal violence, for instance, have been eradicated so that the full attention of moral exemplars may be devoted to the torementing of homosexuals. Their behavior, regardless of its morality, is surely less destructive than murder and massive theft.

  115. 117 Jonathan
    August 19, 2008 at 23:25


    Hey, thanks! Not bad for an atheist, I’d like to think. ‘)

  116. 118 Shirley
    August 19, 2008 at 23:31

    Word Count
    Will, if anyone raises the issue of post length in the future, there will not be any question about how long those posts were. I’ve been making it a point to keep my posts under 300 words. I fail – I am human – but I am trying. I do think that the push towards soundbyte posts is rather ridiculous.

  117. 119 Shirley
    August 19, 2008 at 23:32

    Homosexuality (& Religion)
    Jens, paedophilia is it own monster. Heterosexuals have just as much tendency to that ugliness as homosexuals, even in same-sex abuse cases. In the case of Catholic priests abusing children, I think that it has a lot to do with the nature of sexual repression as a product of Catholic doctrine. That said, I do not believe for an instant that child abuse is intrinsic to the belies of practises of the Catholic Church. I think that it is an unfortunate result of some misguided policies. There is still a long way to go, but I myself have even seen changes in the right direction on some local dioceses.

    Number of words: 111

  118. 120 Venessa
    August 19, 2008 at 23:32


    Why does anyone need to be the moral police over who someone chooses to be in a sexual relationship? Is it because the bible teaches that it’s wrong or because society in general is opposed to it? Who cares! Can’t people just respect other people and let them live their lives?

    I don’t care if gay couples want to raise a child. There are plenty of people out there that should have no right to procreate. I agree that influences from both male and female are important. I know several gay couples raising children. I assure you that they have just as much love, if not more than I’ve seen in heterosexual homes and their children do have both male and female role models.

  119. 121 Shirley
    August 19, 2008 at 23:33

    Homosexuality (& Religion)
    Lubna, schizophrenia is a psychotic disorder in which one perceives things that do not exist, such as sounds, people, or objects. Multiple personality disorder is a mental illness in which one person bears several unique identities independently of each other, often without each personality knowing of the existence of others. I theorise, personally, that it is an outgrowth of suppressed memories in response to severely traumatic events such as abuse.

    It is more difficult, of course, to try to compare a dichotomy between the religious tenets of Christianity and the establishment of churches aimed at serving a homosexual Christian population as multiple personality disorder. Those who do establish churches for homosexuals speak of several reasons for doing so. Many, though they feel the spiritual connection with Christianity, have no desire to live in chastity or to live as heterosexuals. As you may have heard, most homosexuals feel it unnatural to attempt heterosexual relationships. Some homosexual Christians seek validation of homosexuality through the re-interpretation of Christian scriptures.

    You, as a future doctor, inshallah, might find yourself in the position of encouraging a homosexual patient to remain steadfast with his religion of choice, even though you would perceive a contradiction between his homosexuality and his religion. To experience a break with one’s spiritual path while one is struggling to recover his good health might actually slow the progress of his recovery.

    Number of words: 231

  120. 122 Dan
    August 19, 2008 at 23:44

    @ Vanessa
    I agree. I have no problem with homosexuals as their private sexual behavior in no way diminishes me as a person. I have known many gay men and a few lesbians all in committed relationships. I found them all to be great people.
    My only question is can a homosexual couple give a child the male & female love that I believe a child needs to develop. Is a man being effeminate enough. i do not know.
    As for what religion wants at one point religions demanded people stoned to punish them for their offenses. Have we not progressed….even just a little?

  121. 123 nelsoni
    August 19, 2008 at 23:46

    @ Jonathan. I have had the best of both worlds. African and European Upbringing. In Africa, homosexuality runs contrary to core African values and culture. Irrespective of religious affiliations people still hold this values strong. Homosexuality is seen as a negative influence on core African traditions. It is alien to African culture and it always will be. In the Developed World, it’s different … it’s one of their cultural exports.

  122. 124 Jennifer
    August 19, 2008 at 23:47


    There are also things that stop infertile couples from having children like men having low sperm counts, women not ovulating correctly, and etc. Shouldn’t they be allowed to have children?

    I don’t think there is anything selfish about wanting to be a parent!

  123. August 19, 2008 at 23:52

    About music:
    But, I know that the music that I listen to, does effect my mood.
    In fact, my mood effects the music that I listen to and the music that I listen to effects my mood.
    Music always has an effect on the person who is listening to it.
    We just get to decide how much.
    I am not comfortable with my children listening to or singing music that I find offensive.
    And, I am not a hipocrit, I don’t listen to it myself.
    It is the same as some TV shows — oh, don’t have to worry because have not watched TV in over 18months and commic routines, etc.

  124. 126 Jens
    August 19, 2008 at 23:54


    i am not homosexual, for starters, but i fully support their freedom.

    i am not saying they have to force themselves upon a given religion. i am rather appealing to the common sense that religiouse people should put away their homophobia. it’s not as if a homosexual is going to destroy their fundamental believe in god. what is wrong in believing in god and being homosexual. i guess the same thing as being heterosexual, since god does not exist.

    i just do not understand how peace loving jesus freaks are so free in condeming homosexuals, atheists ets. they can go and screw themselves, since their narrow minded attitude is what causes problems all over the world

  125. 127 Jens
    August 19, 2008 at 23:59


    not you as well. i thought i was the only token atheist here. 😉

    what is going to happen to all the gods if people stop believing in them……? a truely disturbing question.

    will they all become disilussioned?

  126. 128 Venessa
    August 20, 2008 at 00:01

    Dan ~

    “My only question is can a homosexual couple give a child the male & female love that I believe a child needs to develop.”

    I think you raise an interesting question and I couldn’t begin to answer it either. I don’t know and maybe time will tell. The question might even be moot given the circumstances that many children are raised in. I can’t help but think about how many children there are that are in homes with a mother and father and don’t get what they need. The gay couples I know are sensitive to the idea that their children need influences from both sexes and ensure that they have it. However I am sure there are exceptions to the rule just like there are with any other numbers of people out there that have children.

  127. 129 Robert
    August 20, 2008 at 00:02

    Homosexuality and kids

    I think the question you must first answer is what would you do if a married man/woman with a kids came out. If you accept that this person and their new partner should be allowed to raise the kid in their home (not just visitation rights, I mean full custody) then to me it is a logical extension to say that they should be able to adopt or use AI. You’ve accepted, by granting custody, the notion that a loving and stable home is provided to the kid and nothing else should matter.

    However if you think the kid needs to to go to the heterosexual partner for no other reason than the sexual preference (i.e. no income issues, criminal records etc) then the logical extension is that no homosexual people should ever be allowed to raise kids.

    I’m not sure where I stand on this issue. I’ve not seen the hard statistical data to see the impact and I have no anecdotal evidence to lean either way. But I think if you can answer the question of what to do with people you come out after kids are born, the rights of gay/lesbian couples re kids should follow automatically from that logic.

  128. 130 Venessa
    August 20, 2008 at 00:04

    Jens ~ you are by far not the only atheist on this site. Many of us do not believe in God, we equate it to the tooth fairy or Santa Claus. They don’t exist either.

  129. August 20, 2008 at 00:06

    Helping Nelson out:
    the bible tells us not to judge.
    But, it also says in the next passage that God judges and his word makes those judgements.
    And, we are to treat those who are not christians a bit differently than those who have professed to be Christians.
    If you are a nonchristian, whatever you do is your own business.
    But, If we feel that a brother or sister is doing something wrong: (And, for most christians Homosexuality falls into the “sin” category), , we are to go to them in love and discuss the issue with them. We are responsible for making the attempt to help our brothers and sisters stay “on the right path” and not “fall from Grace.”
    So, if the christian faith believes that homosexuality is wrong, then, the people have a responsibility to try and get their fellow Christians on the right path.
    Now, if someone professes to be a christian and sins (whether it is adultery, murder, homosexuality or not loving your brother), and says: that it is not a sin, this is where the church has a problem.
    Part of the problem with the church is that it has more readily accepted such things as lying (if good might be gained in the process), gambling and adultery.
    And, it tends to bash the homosexual person, instead of the act. Non-Christians might think that homosexuality is the worse sin ever.
    And,let’s face it, (unfortunately) many in the church are not seeming to act out of a desire for righteousness, but a fear of the sin and a distain for the person. .
    Now, If, I said that I had “homosexual friends,” I would sound like the gong of bigotry. We have all heard it before.
    But, I will say that I treat homosexuals with respect. Although I do not agree with their … “preference,” and yes, I believe that it is a preference;
    frankly, they did not ask for my opinion and I am not obligated to give it to them.
    And,I think that if someone did, I would speak with a heart of love and not fear, so my conversation would not be representative of many of Christian/homosexual conversations.
    BTW., I don’t like the act of adultery, lying, stealing, deception, …
    But, I am respectful and socialize with those who do. If necessary, they know where I stand on these issues and the subject is dropped unless they bring it up, again.

  130. 132 Count Iblis
    August 20, 2008 at 00:08

    Steve, then why not abandon all of science, go back to nature, to the jungle in Africa and join our cousins, the chimpanzees?

  131. 133 Jonathan
    August 20, 2008 at 00:10


    Well, no, actually homosexuality is not a “wstern cultural export.” Nor is it exactly accepted in the West, as certain comments here demonstrate, and as you must know from your exposure to the West. It exists in all cultures and regions and countries, and it always has and it always will. It’s as much counter to the Western tradition as it is to African tradition. The difference lies in the tolerance of one or another society to that which challenges its traditions. Tradition by definition looks only backward, and a progressive society must look forward.

    In some cultures, for instance ancient Greece, it was not considered separate or remarkable, and there was no particular distinction made between homosexual and heterosexual. Having thus saved themselves the time and energy otherwise wasted in obsessing about private behavior, the classical Greeks invented democracy. I wonder what modern socities could achieve, if freed from the necessity of this tiresome debate.

  132. 134 nelsoni
    August 20, 2008 at 00:11

    @ Jamily5. Well said. I could not agree more.

  133. 135 nelsoni
    August 20, 2008 at 00:13

    @ The Atheists, the fact that you don’t believe in God does not mean he does not exist. I have seen Atheists who changed their minds and believe there is a God afterall.

  134. August 20, 2008 at 00:16

    @Jens and others,
    You ask why shouldn’t homosexuals be granted the same rights, etc?

    What you are not understanding is that “homosexuality,” is as much of a sin as “adultery.”
    If you knew a preacher or reverend who was openly commiting adultery, the church would not want them to be in a leadership role.
    they would be setting the wrong example.
    Afterall, The Christians would want their followers “not” to commit adultery.
    And, since we believe that we must set the right example for others, then, the pastor who has commited these acts must step down from their leadership.
    It is the same with the homosexual.

  135. 137 Dan
    August 20, 2008 at 00:23

    @ Nelsoni
    I do not think that we have a good understanding of what God is.
    For me I believe for if there is no God and this is a biological accident then all of this life is wasted time and I would opt to spend my time in more base pursuits and pleasures.
    As God exists then he also created homosexuals. Does God have a sense of humor or is there something vastly deeper we must discover about ourselves?

  136. 138 Jonathan
    August 20, 2008 at 00:24


    To belabor the obvious, the fact that you believe in God does not mean that He does exist. I have seen religious people who changed their minds and no longer believe that there is a God after all. Many, many more of them go in that direction than atheists who find religion. But neither your observation nor mine proves anything.

    Surely we can find a higher plane for this discussion than ’tis/’tisn’t, or arguing whether God exists. That’s guaranteed to go precisely nowhere at all.

    We’d do better to argue Macintoshes vs. PCs, the conversation normally held to be the lowest order of discourse.

  137. 139 Luz Ma from Mexico
    August 20, 2008 at 00:26

    In my opinion quite good 😉

    It would be a better world if more Christians thought that way.

  138. August 20, 2008 at 00:31

    I see a commonality:
    Can a gay couple:
    or a woman who decides to conceive and raise a child without a father,
    raise a well rounded child?
    does there have to be a “mother” and “father?”
    And, if so:
    Can a feminine male
    or a masculine female
    play the part of the missing parent?

    I do believe that children need both parents: being active people in their children’s lives.
    Sure, there are many times when this is not the case.
    But, conceiving the child with the knowledge that there isand mostlikely will always be a missing person is foolish for the parent and potentially damaging for the child.
    And, for the single women who are artificially insiminated:
    I think that it is awfully selfish on their part.
    We need all of the extended family that we can get and for someone to make that bold statement that the child does not even need a father — or the bonding of an intact family —
    as if that one woman will be all that the child will ever need:
    I find that totally superficial and selfish.
    What are we, as women trying to prove?

  139. August 20, 2008 at 00:39

    @Dan and others,

    many people continue to ask:
    “God created Homosexuals, so why wouldn’t he accept them?”
    I think that you are missing a crucial point.
    Yes, god did create men and women.
    But, we believe that homosexuality is a choice: like adultery or lying.
    So, God created men and women.
    God created the person.
    The person has the choice because they have free will.
    Your choices have consequences.
    We(I think that I can safely: use “WE” to describe Nelson and I),
    believe that if you choose to follow your homosexual urges:
    just as someone follows their adulterous urges or kleptomanic urges or deceptive urges or selfish urges… …
    then, you are not following God’s word.
    I hope that this makes sense.

  140. 142 Amy
    August 20, 2008 at 00:43


    MACs all the way!!!

  141. 143 Jonathan
    August 20, 2008 at 00:49

    @Count Iblis–
    If we were all chimps, one of us would surely be flinging his poo in all directions?

    Oh,yes indeed, God must have a sense of humor as you suggest. And, good point that if He exists, He created homosexuals, and that there is something deeper for us to discover in ourselves.

    Instead of elevating ourselves to try to be what God intended for us to be, too many of us instead drag God down to human level, imagining Him to be interested in our petty prejudices and wars and politics and who we sleep with. That somehow doesn’t seem especially divine.

  142. 144 Venessa
    August 20, 2008 at 00:49

    Jonathan ~

    Well said on your post August 20, 2008 at 12:24 am.

    I would even add that it doesn’t matter if you believe in some higher being or share the same belief systems as long as people can mutually respect other.

    My frustration with religion is that it preaches love and acceptance and more times than not I see self proclaimed pious people condemning people who do not think like them. What a shame.

  143. 145 Dan
    August 20, 2008 at 00:50

    @ Jamily5
    You make sense but I only have one question. I am attracted to women. I did not make that choice. There is something inside of me that “clicks” every time I see a woman.
    Did I make that choice?
    If my daughter turns out to be a lesbian did she make that choice? It certainly will not affect my love for her.
    I cannot answer the question I only pose another.

  144. 146 Jonathan
    August 20, 2008 at 00:56


    What you say might “make sense” IF homosexuality were a “choice.” But how likely is that, really? Given the immense social, family, religious pressures, the complexity, confusion, and heartbreak, the hatred from all corners, do you really think anyone would “choose” to be hated and to undertake such a heavy burden?


  145. August 20, 2008 at 01:06

    @choosing to be a homosexual,

    If you believe it is a choice, then I encourage you to make that choice, but only for a minute. Then chose to go back to how you were before.

  146. 148 Shirley
    August 20, 2008 at 01:19

    Religion & Concept of Sin
    Jamily, you said, I don’t like the act of adultery, lying, stealing, deception. But, I am respectful and socialize with those who do.

    Do you see all of those as being equally wrong? Do some have a more direct or a deeper impact on society? Does that have a bearing on how you view one in comparison to the other? Take care.

    word count: nyahhh

  147. 149 Tom
    August 20, 2008 at 01:27

    @ Jens,

    What is going to happen to all the gods if people stop believing in them?

    I’d say this is similar to saying, to borrow Jonathan’s analogy, “If a tree falls in a forest and nobody hears it, does it make a sound?”

    If the gods, barring giving us another Great Flood, no longer make a tangible impact on us, do they still exist?

    Whatever happened to the Age of Miracles considering that humans today are no less sinful than before the flood?

    @ Atheism,

    I am not religious and I don’t believe God that is white haired white bearded and blue eyed, nor one that is bold smiling and with a pot belly like Buddha. That’s because I refuse to adopt a religious doctrine written by people whom, as one contributor has said, are fallable hypocritical beings capable of the damnest form of emotional manipulation.

    We live in this world governed by uncompromisable laws of nature. The laws are rational and is largely predictable by the most fundamental of human languages – mathematics. The laws have provision for life craving for self-preservation and propagation. These laws allows room for self-awareness, spiritual thoughts and free choice. I don’t believe that these laws are random and despite my non-religiousness there is a profound force underwriting and governing these laws that I’m still discovering and refuse to rule out.

  148. 150 Jamily5
    August 20, 2008 at 01:53

    Here is a question for you.
    If homosexuality is not a choice,
    Then, why are there some people who “once were homosexual” but are not anymore? And, I have met many lesbians who said that they loved their husbands at one time, but have now fallen in love with a woman.

    I do believe that environment does have some part to play in healthy sexual and gender growth.
    And, I do believe that there might be genetic markers.
    But, none of this is definitive.
    Many lesbians tell me that the reason that they are lesbian is because they understand women more clearly and can get along better with a woman. They say that they have a deeper relationship because they are both women and understand how the other one feels.
    I think that in these circumstances: these women did choose to be homosexual. They admittedly had a difficult time navigating the complexities of male/female relationships and thus, opted to have only female ones. Afterall, maybe their successful relationships were with their female family members.
    ****I am not stereotyping! I am just talking about some of the women that I know*****
    And, in some of the families that I know, almost all of the women in the family are homosexual.
    I know that this is only discussing the women that I know – but, I imagine that there are many more out there, that are just like the women that I speak of.

    Dan, if one believes that homosexuality is unnatural, then, the urge in in itself would be unnatural.
    If I had the urge to mate with my brother would it be okay because the attraction and urge to mate is not one made by choice?

    If one of my children were homosexual, yes, it would bother me.
    I would try and figure out what may have led them to such a “choice.”
    But, I would still continue a relationship with them. they would still know that they are loved. And, I would support their dreams and want the best for their well-being.
    I would love the person, but dislike the actions.
    Just as I dislike the actions of adultery, premarital sex, drinking alcohol, deception, murder, stealing, lying, mistreating others, etc.
    And, my children have done most of these, at one time or another.

  149. 151 Jamily5
    August 20, 2008 at 02:09

    Please don’t visit that website that was in my last message!!!
    This computer belonged to someone before me and I can’t tell you about their daughter’s website.
    PortlandMike said:
    If you believe it is a choice, then I encourage you to make that choice, but only
    for a minute. Then chose to go back to how you were before.
    I don’t have to. I know many who have already done this.
    Many men have told me in confidence that they “tried” homosexuality.
    And, many more women “tried” lesbianism.
    Afterall, men seem to be much more accepting of lesbians than they are of homosexual men.
    I might as well make the bold statement:
    Yes, I believe that if I wanted to:
    I could become a lesbian.
    But, I don’t want to.
    And, I don’t just mean that I could um… … have sex with a woman.
    I mean, I believe that if I wanted to, I could
    1. begin to tell myself that homosexuality is not a sin
    2. find good points and lots of literature to support homosexuality
    3. continue to accept it and have others around me who accept homosexuality
    4. envelop myself into the lifestyle
    5. have lesbian friends
    6. begin to become curious
    7. allow my curiousity to grow
    8. decide to “just try,”

    Now, before I get banned,
    I am not saying that anyone who accepts homosexuality or has homosexual friends: is or will bea lesbian.
    I am just saying that I could, if I talked myself into it and allowed myself to, be a lesbian.


  150. 152 Jonathan
    August 20, 2008 at 02:13


    That’s a pretty impressive list of achievements for your children. Do you present it as evidence of your tolerance, or of the importance of good parenting, role models, etc.? Or somehow as an attempt to link those horrendous choices to homosexuality, which is neither?

  151. 153 Jamily5
    August 20, 2008 at 02:15

    God teaches that no sin is greater than another.
    Actually, he does say that to blaspheme the Holy Spirit is an irreversable sin, but I have to get scripture on that one.
    But, he does teach that the sinof homosexual and the sin of stealing are on in the same.
    Yet, men have different consequences for these sins and we also must obey the law.
    Jesus says that if one man breaks any part of the law, then he breaks the law.
    A murderer and an adulterer still sin and are guilty of not obeying God’s commandments.
    Yet, if man and his laws have different consequences for these sins, then, we must also assume those consequences, as well.

  152. 154 Dan
    August 20, 2008 at 02:16

    @ Jamily5
    You raise such interesting questions. While I am usually very sure of myself in my opinions, I am in a grey area here and you ask things that I do not know the answer to. I am in process of learnin from all of you.
    I think that homosexuality is different for a woman than for a man but that is not objective.
    As for a man I think that we are sexually driven by urges rather than by emotions and rationality. It is only our belief in what is right & wrong, our values, that stops us from sinking to the level of animal actions. I hope that I have expressed myself well on this. Those values for me come from God and we have come full circle.

  153. 155 Jonathan
    August 20, 2008 at 02:25


    Yes, agreed. It’s ironic that religion, intended to elevate, is used by some to justify opression, war, torture. I wonder what Jesus would think of the people who act in his name, and the things they say and do.

  154. 156 Jamily5
    August 20, 2008 at 02:26

    The question was:
    Given the immense social, family, religious pressures, the complexity,
    confusion, and heartbreak, the hatred from all corners, do you really think anyone
    would “choose” to be hated and to undertake such a heavy burden?

    Do people make a choice to overeat?
    It effects their health.
    They are criticized.
    they are made fun of.
    They are discriminated against and ostracized.
    So, why do they choose to overeat and become obese?

    Adultery happened during the days when women were stoned for such actions.
    So, why would anyone commit adultery?

    Each of us has certain urges that we must control.
    For some, it is alcohol.
    for some, it is adultery.
    for some, it is homosexuality.
    For some, it is inssessant lying.

    And, while you say that there is hatred of homosexuals, I need to point out that there are also spots and people that are quite accepting of the practice.
    I am not saying that there is not hatred.
    But, there are also large pockets of society that accept and celebrate it.

  155. 157 Virginia Davis
    August 20, 2008 at 02:27

    @Mohammed Ali and the insanity of politicians:

    I was suggesting a sane political process. Test everyone who wants to vote. Have sane voters who are sensible enough to work for and elect sane leaders. Who is making the decisions in Africa! A power elite left over from colonialism?

    I DO NOT believe, as Steve does, that ALL politicians are narcissistic. That is crazy!
    Can we get some sensible dialog on what makes a good politician? Some sensible dialog on what makes a good democracy?

    And some comments on why two loving people can be good parents and involve their children in an extended loving family? Even if they couldn’t physically conceive their children themselves?

    And just because the Liberian leaders had advanced degrees doesn’t mean they were educated! My definitions of education has something to do with outcomes, not just going through a system.

    Virginia in Oregon

  156. 158 Count Iblis
    August 20, 2008 at 02:27


    If we were all chimps, one of us would surely be flinging his poo in all directions?


    About religion: I don’t think many people would believe in God if they were taught more about science at an early age (in primary school).

    I agree with Tom about the laws of nature. We should realize that the laws of physics apply to us, including our brains, our computers etc. The interesting thing here is that a computer can be programmed to compute anything, so it can simulate a hypothetical world which is governed by rules that are completely different from the laws of physics.

    When we open our eyes, look around, hear, feel and taste things, we are actually experiencing a virtual world created by our brains. That virtual world is, of course, modeled after the real world. In this virtual world there exist certain phenomena that do not exist in the real world, like pain, feeling sad or happy etc. etc. This not not a contradiction, as I explaind above.

  157. 159 Dan
    August 20, 2008 at 02:30

    @ Jamily5
    Surely there must be gradiations of sin with murder sitting at the top.

  158. 160 Venessa
    August 20, 2008 at 02:30

    Jamily ~

    Of course there is probably a subset of the population that experiment with the same sex out of curiosity or it’s trendy. This is not a way to quantify if people are gay. I would propose there is a population (as suggested by someone on a previous TP) of people that are not 100% gay or straight. I think there might be inherent tendencies that can alter your level of attraction toward the opposite or same sex. I have friends that have been in both heterosexual and homosexual relationships and it’s not because they thought they were gay. It is important to them to not exclude a good partner regardless of their gender. I see nothing wrong with this whatsoever. Also I have other friends that have never had any type sexual relationship with someone of the opposite sex. They have never swayed from knowing that the like the same sex just as I prefer men. There are also a lot of people that have tried to go down the “moral” path that society suggests with tragic results.

    I too can say I know both men and women who led heterosexual lives at one time and did love their spouses. They had mutual respect for each other and were best friends. One person in particular I can think of even has kids. He didn’t just wake up one day and decide to go catch some gay. He always had been and was trying his best to fit into the mold that society preaches should be right. He had just finally found the courage to speak up about it. In fact his children have said they always knew he was gay.

    There are always exceptions that can support our arguments. I still go back to the fact that there have always been gay people whether socially acceptable or not and why would someone “choose” to be something that would offer a lot of ridicule from other people.

  159. 161 Jamily5
    August 20, 2008 at 02:38

    I think that you have misunderstood me.
    Dan was saying that if his child was homosexual, he would love it.
    I was also agreeing with him.
    If my child decided to engage in homosexual activities, then, I would still love my child and want to continue a relationship with him/her.
    That is not a sign of my tolerance (I hate that word), but my love for my child.
    I was making a point that whichever sin my child commited, I would dislike the sinful behavior (although I know that many cringe at the word **sin**).
    But, I would still love my daughter.
    I could not support my child, if I felt that their actions were wrong.
    And, then, I pointed out that my children are not saints and actually “have” participated in some of these sinful behaviors although I did not like their actions, I still love them and tried ****try*** to help them make better choices in the future.
    I don’t hold my children up as “great examples.”
    And, I don’t praise my wonderful parenting… …
    I was not trying to be sanctamonious or pious.
    I am just trying to do what I think is right.
    And, that includes: not liking certain actions because I believe that they are wrong, but still loving my children.
    Each of us has certain values that we try to pass down to our children.
    You might disagree with my values, but you may raise your children as you see fit.
    And, I shall do the same.

  160. 162 Jennifer
    August 20, 2008 at 02:40


    Think of all the stereotypes about homosexual people, prejudice, dealing with their families, letting down God, etc…..Why would someone make the choice to do something that goes against what most people believe is right if they could simply choose? That is why many homosexual people get married, have children, and end up still not being happy. They try to do what is the most socially acceptable thing and it makes a mess for everyone involved.

    I do not know for certain if it truly is a choice that one makes or if they are born being homosexual, but again, I don’t see how anyone could make the choice of choosing to go against what is the most socially acceptable when it would be so much easier and better for them to be heterosexual. There would be no fighting for acceptance, marriage rights, and etc.

    I disagree about someone being able to make the decision to be homosexual if they choose. How would that work when you have to be attracted to that person? The thought of kissing another woman makes me want to hurl. No amount of “talking myself into it” would work! That is just ridiculous!

  161. 163 Jonathan
    August 20, 2008 at 02:43


    Thank you for making my point: that it’s as silly to think homosexuality is a choice as to think compulsive overeating is a choice. A compulsion is self-evidently not a choice.

    Oh, wait, sorry, you said compulsive overeating IS a choice.

    Never mind.

    What point do you imagine you make by saying there are “large pockets of society that accept and celebrate homosexuality?” First, oh yeah? Name five. Second, so what?

  162. 164 Venessa
    August 20, 2008 at 02:44

    Can anyone opposed to homosexuality tell me any other reason why it’s wrong other than it’s what the bible tells us? I’m curious if anyone has a reason that has nothing to do with religion.

  163. 165 Jamily5
    August 20, 2008 at 02:47

    I believe that you are referring to the Kinzngton scale of sexuality.
    The study was either done or published in Bloomington and IU (Indiana University) has a whole dept devoted to these studies and sexuality in general.
    I only know about it because they praised Indiana University for it and obviously, I am from Indiana, so the profs felt honored to have that collection and be associated with that ground breaking study.

    So, you think that homosexuality is genetic?

    Sure, there were homosexuals 100/1000 etc years ago.
    So, if it is not environmental and we all just possess our own sexual scale, as it is, then, how to you attribute the rise inhomosexuality?
    Surely, you can’t deny that the percentage of homosexuals have risen within the past um… … let’s just say, 100years.

  164. 166 Venessa
    August 20, 2008 at 02:55

    Can anyone really definitively say that it has been on the rise in the last 100 years? After all it has been socially unacceptable. I suspect we see “it on the rise” because people can be more open about it.

  165. 167 Dan
    August 20, 2008 at 02:57

    @ Vanessa
    Has there ever been any successful homosexual society? That may be a contributing factor.
    Additionally male homosexuality is viewed as “dirty” and “vile” but lesbians are not. Think carefully what I am saying here. Is it the males or society who make the rules as to what is right & wrong? I am hesitant to describe that further but I think you understand my point.

  166. 168 Jamily5
    August 20, 2008 at 03:08

    Please read this post carefully.
    I did not say “compulsive,” but I will address that later.

    I know many people who “choose” to overeat,
    just as they “choose” to drink large amounts of alcohol,
    just as some “choose,” to do coke,
    Just as one “chooses,” to smoke a cigarette.
    just as some people “choose” to date their daughter’s boyfriend,
    just as some “choose,” to steal a car.
    Just as some choose to not have premarital sex.
    Just as one might “choose” to get a tattoo.
    There are good and bad consequences to each choice that one makes.

    a compulssion can be controled and *yes* I have seen it happen!
    when given the right tools, people “choose” whether they want to control their compulsion, or not.
    But, if you are going to put homosexuality into the “compulsion,” category, we are back to mental health.

    First Jonathan, you make the point that homosexuals would never choose to be homosexual because they are so ostracized by almost everyone.
    So, my point was that there are pockets and segments of society that *do* accept homosexuality.
    Then, you retorted:
    “What point do you imagine you make by saying there are “large pockets of society
    that accept and celebrate homosexuality?” First, oh yeah? Name five. Second, so what?”
    Did you really not get my point?
    It sounds as if I have offended you.
    This is not a personal attack.
    I am only trying to make my point that there are parts of society that condone homosexuality, I am aware that the ostracision that homosexuals face *is* certainly real,
    however, there are places where homosexuals are quite accepted and feel quite unified. and, I will even venture that these places are expanding.
    I was rendering a part of your argument invalid.
    If I have touched a nerve or if this is an emotional subject, then, we might just want to find another discussion.

  167. 169 Shirley
    August 20, 2008 at 03:09

    Religion & Concept of Sin
    Don’t worry about pulling a Bible verse for my sake. I know which one you are talking about in reference to blasphemy, though I’m also hard pressed for a reference or exact quotation right now. Don’t forget that I had converted to Islam from Christianity. There will be things that I remember. I asked about the degrees of sin because of how Islam treats the concept of sin. Check out one of our texts on “Greater Sins.” Once the text begins to discuss the sins themselves, it also provides some explanations about why Islam considers them to be more grave than others. Murder, number five, is listed as a graver sin than usury, which is considered more grave in turn than sexual sins or drinking alcoholic beverages.

    We Muslims place a tremendous emphasis on the gravity of sins that involve financial corruption or dishonesty because of how they tear away at the fabric of society. Our emphasis on sexual morality comes from an interest in being fruitful and multiplying, which I think you will recognise.

  168. 170 Jamily5
    August 20, 2008 at 03:19

    Well, if someone can “always tell,” who was homosexual and who was not, then, there must be a rise.
    think of your grandparents.
    How many homosexual people do you think that they knew/know?
    do you think that you know more than they did/do?
    We can’t count anyone who “so successfully hid his/her sexuality orientation that no one ever knew.”
    Afterall, either we believe that it is almost impossible to hide because it is so ingrained in a person —
    “We always knew that he was homosexual:”
    or, it can be successfully hidden, which would bring up the question of “choice.”
    Where are the stats??? I don’t know.
    But, if it is on the rise, then, why do you think at this is?
    And, if it is not, then, why doesn’t our grandparents report knowing as many homosexual people?
    And, we can’t say that many just hid it.
    Because, if it is so ingrained in them and “not a choice,” then, they could not “choose,” to hide with much success.

  169. 171 Suresh
    August 20, 2008 at 03:25

    “Surely, you can’t deny that the percentage of homosexuals have risen within the past um… … let’s just say, 100years.”

    There’s no statistical evidence to make this statement. The gay community is more visible in the media, but to say that their numbers have swelled bears no water. Maybe a lot of repressed individuals have come forward to accept their orientation publicly. Absolute numbers as percentage of population cannot have risen above the estimated 1%.

  170. 172 Jonathan
    August 20, 2008 at 03:30


    I don’t misunderstand you. Your point is that homosexuality is a “choice.” I’ve refuted it by every means I can think of, and failed to convince you, or even to engage you. So be it.

    At the very end of a very long comment, you graciously mentioned that if one of your children were gay, you would still love him/her, just as you would if one of your children were guilty of murder, theft, or another of a parade of horribles that you by implication equate with being gay, although (a) those are choices, and (b) those are inherently bad. Whatever point that was, if any, it wasn’t your main point.

    Separately, surely I CAN “deny that the percentage of homosexuals has risen with the past um…. let’s just say, 100 years.” More properly, I haven’t seen evidence of it. Perhaps you have, being from Indiana and thus positioned to osmotically abosrb the findings of Indiana University and the successors of Dr. Kinsey, to whom you refer as “Kinzngton.” If so, enlighten us. If not, you may be making the elementary error of noticing that gay people are more VISIBLE lately, and concluding that they are more numerous.

    Be that as it may, what is your point in that assertion? It wouldn’t support any of your contentions, even if it were true.

  171. 173 Bob in Queensland
    August 20, 2008 at 03:43

    Good morning all!

    Wow. That was a long read.

    One general comment about today’s discussions: if Christianity is a religion based on Christ’s doctrine of love and tolerance, why is it so often the self-professed religious who are the most reactionary and intolerant? The outlandish teachings of the old testament (that reminds me–I must get some stones to deal with my neighbour–I think she’s committing adultery) seem to get far more play from most “Christians” than the peaceful word of Christ.

    Maybe we need a new name for the religion which gives the old testament more weight than the teachings of Christ?

  172. 174 Jamily5
    August 20, 2008 at 03:46

    Thanks Shirley, I found that quite interesting.
    I was a bit surprised at the ranking, but still, found it quite interesting.
    There is lots to read on thatpage and I will have to go back to it.
    Thanks for the resource.

  173. 175 Shirley
    August 20, 2008 at 03:53

    Poll Taxes, Reading Tests, & Other Voting Qualification Methods
    Virginia, people of varied mental abilities might not take well to a sanity test as a qualification for elegibility for voting. (Let’s see that ID card now, shall we?) If I have misunderstood you, do let me know.

    You also said, My definitions of education has something to do with outcomes, not just going through a system. I couldn’t agree more. An excellent standard.

  174. 176 Venessa
    August 20, 2008 at 03:55

    Jamily ~

    I still respectfully disagree. Of course there aren’t going to be any stats just like you can’t produce any from 100 years ago that would tell us anything definitive.

    There are people I have met that are gay that I had no idea. You can’t always tell nor did the comment I make reflect that as my belief. It was simply a comment one of his children made to me. Of course a child living with a parent could probably make that observation as opposed to someone on the outside looking in. I have another friend whose mother has been in a relationship with another woman for nearly 20 years and she had no idea her mother preferred women prior to that. People do indeed find ways to live with secrets successfully without other people’s knowledge. It’s naïve to think that it cannot be done.

    As I said before we both probably know people in all the gray areas. What I fail to understand is why for the life of me some people have a problem with homosexuality and detest homosexuals and think it’s there moral obligation to sermonize how wrong it is.

  175. 177 Dennis
    August 20, 2008 at 04:06

    Good Night to my friends!!!

    I am sorry for not being around that much on TP on 20 August 2008! Currently having a sore throat!

    Dennis 🙂

  176. 178 Jamily5
    August 20, 2008 at 04:39

    first, I thought that I made it quite clear that I would love my child, even if they had done something that I don’t agree with.
    That did take up a considerable part of my message and certainly was quite an important point.
    The fact that you don’t want to recognize it does not make it untrue!
    But, just for the sake of you understanding me, I will elaborate, once more!
    *yes* I consider homosexuality a “choice.” *yes, I consider homosexuality “not a good choice.”
    *Yes* I would still love my child and be a part of my child’s life, if they “choose” to make the decision of homosexuality.
    My point is that we all make “choices.” I really have no problem with people “choosing,” to be homosexual. That is their right.
    We all make choices.
    My children who are in their late teens and early 20s, are making decisions that I don’t care for.
    What parent couldn’t make that statement?
    We all decide what our values are.
    We all decide which values that we want to pass down to our children.
    And, our children decide which values that they want to hold.
    But, just because I think that homosexuality is a “wrong choice,” does not mean that I am going to chastize my child to death or disown him.
    In my next post, I will address your other comment.
    I just thought that I might devote an entire post to this point so that my intentions would be understood more clearly.

  177. 179 Shirley
    August 20, 2008 at 04:41

    Religion & Concept of Sin
    Jamily, there do exist other rankings. Though this is one o the more popular texts on the topic from the persective of Shia Islam, I am more accustomed to seeing disbelief followed by murder, then a mix of things like backbiting, lying, financial misdeeds, et.c and sins of morality in the upper middle of the list with some odds and ends carrying on towards the end of the list. The text that I listed, though, is written by one of the highest-ranking Shia Islamic scholars of the mdoern era.

    I was accustomed to equating blasphemy with disbelief in Christianity. Is that how you understand it, as well?

    In the Catholic Church, there is a listing of cardinal sins and venial sins. Is it the same in other highly liturgical denominations, such as the Episcopal/ANglican and Orthodox Churches? Will?

  178. 180 Jamily5
    August 20, 2008 at 04:50

    Jonathan, you wrote:
    you may be making the elementary
    error of noticing that gay people are more VISIBLE lately, and concluding that they
    are more numerous.
    Be that as it may, what is your point in that assertion? It wouldn’t support any
    of your contentions, even if it were true.

    Vanessa and I were having a friendly exchange.
    ????Vanessa, would you confirm the adjective “friendly????”
    As we were discussing “choice” verses “genetics,”
    I asked her if she thought that there were more homosexual people today than um… … let’s say 100years ago.
    I certainly thought that there were.
    No, I can’t prove it.
    And, no, it is certainly not because of the media.
    If you had bothered to read my posts,
    I specifically said that I know more homosexuals than my grandmother.
    And, I would make a good speculation that many of us know more homosexuals than our grandparents.
    One person on the blog, it might have been Vanessa, stated that she knew a guy who tried to fit into society as a straight man, but finally revealed his “true sexuality.” she stated that the children commented that “they knew it all along.”
    So, if most homosexuals are homosexual from the start and show signs, the grandparents (while they may not have called it homosexual) would have actually been able to tell “who” was gay and “who” was not.
    And, if they knew less “potentially gay” people than we know, then, the question is “why is this?”
    Is it because more people are making a choice to be homosexual?

  179. 181 Jamily5
    August 20, 2008 at 05:03

    And, here is another question:
    **Vanessa and anyone who is not offended,
    When a person was hetrosexual for quite sometime, then, decides to “display their true sexuality,”
    and declare their homosexuality, it is called not hiding anymore.
    They always knew that they were homosexual and have disgarded the shackles of societal norms to become their true selves.

    What about the person who was homosexual and now decides to proclaim his/her hetrosexuality?
    If homosexuality is so ostracized, why would he/she first feel homosexual and then, later claim hetrosexuality?
    Do you think that he/she is just repressing their sexuality, now?
    It would not make sense that a person is born hetrosexual, yet was homosexual at one time.
    What would be the justification for such a thing?

  180. 182 Bob in Queensland
    August 20, 2008 at 05:03

    Re: Homosexuality

    If homosexuality is a “life choice” rather than “nature” then how do you reconcile the fact that, to date, scientists have found more than 1500 species (ranging from insects to herd mammals) in which a certain percentage of animals engage in homosexual behaviour? THIS LINK gives details and there are also several entries in Wikipedia on this.

  181. 183 Jamily5
    August 20, 2008 at 05:12

    I noticed that not performing Salat was up there in the top.
    I would understand this, if I believe that prayers are like conversations with God and that I view God as my Holy father: benevolent and friendly. And, that by not performing salat, I am not communicating with God.
    But, as I understand it — and please correct me if I am wrong —
    Muslims don’t view God as their father and/or with that kind of personal paternal connection.
    So, it is just a ritual or an obedience thing??????

    Yes, we consider blasphemy a great sin.
    But, blasphemy, only after you have known the greatness of god and have felt the Holy Spirit and have decided to accept Christ and all that Christianity has to offer.
    thus, the sin of Blasphemy is after the one becomes a true believer.

    Yes, some catholic and other closely related religions have a kind of rating on sin.
    they distinguish between the sin that might hurt another and sins that will not.
    And, they distinguish between sins of action and sins of omission.

  182. 184 Jamily5
    August 20, 2008 at 05:17

    Interesting article, bob.
    I’ll process that one and get back with you. I welcome a friendly debate, even when the views expressed are differently than my own.
    But, it is after 12:00, here and I can’t stay up much longer.

  183. 185 Bob in Queensland
    August 20, 2008 at 05:29

    Sleep well Jamily5! I understand the pressure of time zones…I’m usually at the wrong end of that particular debate!

  184. 186 Jessica from NYC
    August 20, 2008 at 05:46

    @ portlandmike, Venessa, Jens and others.

    @ Steve
    If I understand your logic correctly, the intervention of science should not give people “unnatural” options.
    Does this include impotence men not getting erections with the assistance of vigra? Or women having their breast removed to prevent cancer from taking their lives? Or what about heterosexual couples who can’t naturally have children for various reasons and have In Vitro Fertilization or use egg and embryo donation or surrogacy.

    I imagine gay and lesbian couples want to have children for the same reasons heterosexual couples do who can’t naturally have them without the intervention of science. Their reasons have nothing to do with who they are sexually attracted to, just as you desire that supermodel others desire a fuller figured women.

  185. 187 Amy
    August 20, 2008 at 05:49


    I hope someone joins in soon so you have someone to debate/talk to. It is nearly 10 PM here and I’ll be heading off to bed soon. It’s been an interesting day and I’ll refrain from making my query about something so I am not accused of a personal attack.

    As for the whole entire homosexual discussion I really think everyone needs to agree to disagree. We’ve gone over it many times to the same conclusion. I hope that everyone will just treat all people with respect no matter what.

  186. 188 Venessa
    August 20, 2008 at 06:00

    Good night Amy & Jamily.

  187. 189 Jonathan
    August 20, 2008 at 06:13

    Bob– [waving my hand] I know! I know the answer to that one! As humans we should riise above the baser animal instincts that inspire animals to engage in, um, unnatural acts. Crimes against nature. You know. Also, maybe the animals are making choices too. First they say it’s unnatrual–a construct of a decadent society. Show em it’s natural because bugs do it, and they’ll say we should be better than bugs cuzza Jesus.

    They’ve gotcha coming and going in the steel-jawed trap of a circular argument. The more you wriggle, the more you’ll bleed. I generally just toss out a bit of raw meat to distract them, then play dead until their attentions turn elsewhere.

    Then I gnaw my leg off. It’s less painful than endlessly arguing with these folks.

  188. 190 Tom
    August 20, 2008 at 06:13

    @ Bob,

    Thanks for the interesting and insightful article. It does help to shatter the myth that only homo sapiens are psychologically developed enough to use sex for purposes other than procreation.

    Another example is that of the Bonobo chimpanzees. Their social interaction highly revolves around sex: male to female, male to male, parents to children. The act serves a range of purposes ranging from dominance to respect and, of course, procreation. As a natural reflection to human sexuality, the Bonobo chimps are the closest animal relatives to humans. They are closer to us than are the normal chimpanzees.

    I think based on these readings my opinion about homosexuality is beginning to shift from that of conscious choice to natural behaviour. Whether it is right or wrong, moral or immoral, however, is another matter all together – along with the natural tendancy of humans and animals to kill one another out of survival.

  189. 191 Jonathan
    August 20, 2008 at 06:15

    I’m with Amy! [tipping my hat]

  190. 192 Jessica from NYC
    August 20, 2008 at 06:15

    @ Bob in Queensland
    LOL–I think you have a moral obligation to stone your neighbor, that adulteress sinner for luring an innocent man. Keep me posted.

    Good night all!

  191. 193 Venessa
    August 20, 2008 at 06:26

    Hi Bob ~

    I hope you can take over; I’m not sure if there are any other mods around. It’s time for me to get some sleep so I can get to the gym early!

  192. 194 Bob in Queensland
    August 20, 2008 at 06:41

    Hi Jonathan!

    I know what you mean about circular arguments….I think I might join you for the leg-gnawing. (I’ll bring the BBQ sauce.)

    On a totally different topic, the American TSA (Transportation Security Administration) is not my favourite government agency, especially since they are another example of surrendering rights for security. However, they’ve been in the news a bit lately:

    First, they seem to have a secret “watch list” of suspected terrorists. The only problem is, the list seems to include AIRLINE PILOTS AND 5 YEAR OLD CHILDREN. Ironcally, there are very simple ways to avoid the list if you want to.

    Potentially more serious, the TSA now also seems to be BREAKING THE PLANES THEY’RE SUPPOSED TO GUARD. This one is potentially very serious because, had the damage not been noted, the lack of this tube would cause faulty altitude readings and, potentially, a crash.

    Do you feel safer now?

  193. 195 Bob in Queensland
    August 20, 2008 at 06:42

    Good night, Venessa. Yup…I’ll be around for a while so sleep well!

  194. 196 Jessica from NYC
    August 20, 2008 at 06:45

    Here’s an article regarding a discussion we had last week on the lowering the drinking age.

    Educators Urge Lower Drinking Age to Cut Bingeing

    Now, I’m off to sleep. Good night.

  195. 197 Shirley
    August 20, 2008 at 06:48

    Concept of God & Sin in Religion
    Jamily, There are many different forms of worship in Islam. Some are considered to be obligatory. Some are optional. Salat is obligatory. Du`ah is optional. Siyam is obligatory. Sadaqah is optional. Salat is usually translated as “prayers” for lack of a better word. It more resembles a very short version of the Catholic Mass. There are various positions in salat, and they are associated with the same liturgical phrases each time it is performed. It is a worship ritual unto itself and is much different from the prayers with which Christians are raised. The du`ah is more like what Christians are accustomed to for prayer. Siyam is fasting; and fasting Ramadan is obligatory. Sadaqah is optional charitable donations.

    Muslims believe in a very close and personal connection between God and man. We believe that He hears our supplications and responds. We believe that He is attentive to us when we do our salat, that he hears any supplications that we make in association with salat, and that He rewards us for obeying His command to worship Him as He instructed. There are passages in the Qur’an, narrations in ahadith, phrases in supplications, etc. that speak of or otherwise refer to the intimate connection between God and humankind.

    Number of words: 214

  196. 198 Shirley
    August 20, 2008 at 06:50

    Concept of God & Sin in Religion
    We believe that the basis of this relationship is not defined by gender or gender-based associations – we do not refer to God as our father. We believe that the very special connection between us and God is based on the fact that He created us and knows us perfectly. The concept of this connection exists in both Islam and Christianity. How it is expressed differs between the two religions.

    What we do with that potential connection, what we make of it, whether we take advantage of it or ignore it, is a decision that each of us Muslims makes individually. One can go through the motions of worship, but unless he has a sincere faith in God, they are nothing but empty and meaningless motions. This same concept exists in Christianity.

    Number of words: 138

  197. 199 Shirley
    August 20, 2008 at 07:17

    Airline “Safety”
    Bob: Do you feel safer now?

    On the level of sky-blue fuschia. Where does it rate on the colour-coded system?

    You leg-gnawers are seriously cracking me up. Laughter: excellent medicine, awesome exercise.

  198. 200 Shirley
    August 20, 2008 at 07:31

    Olympic Detentions
    This is not recent news, but rather the telling of a story that has already happened. It’s from a Reuters article on Yahoo News. [P]etitioners Wu Dianyuan, 79, and Wang Xiuying, 77, were sentenced to one year of “re-education through labor” after repeatedly applying to hold demonstrations in the areas Beijing has set aside for protests during the Games…

    It’s scary to me. Tom, if you’re awake, might you have any idea of whether their ages would be taken into consideration in terms of their (disagreeable, to me) punishment?

  199. 201 Tom
    August 20, 2008 at 07:34

    @ Jamily,

    If homosexuality is an innate part of human behaviour, then conversion between homosexuality and heterosexuality is perfectly possible. I have heard of stories where a mum correctly predicted that his son would become gay by judging his behaviour during infancy. On the other hand, a friend of mine was interested in the opposite sex but has recently “converted”.

    My opinion is that humans are capable of being on either side of the fence, chosen or natural, but their level of passion and desire for love and companionship remain the same.

  200. 202 Tom
    August 20, 2008 at 07:46

    @ Shirley,

    Laughter is a natural effective pain relief also! 🙂

    It’s only 4:46pm so I’m at work still.

    China is not afraid of detaining troublemakers for indefinite period of time. So in the case of Wu Dianyuan and Wang Xiuying, their 1-year sentence is relatively light. Either the age is the factor, or that the authority was only keen on keeping them away during the Olympics – as the last paragraph suggests.

  201. 203 Shirley
    August 20, 2008 at 08:01

    Well, then – the next time that I get one of those awful sinus headaches, I will have to try laughing.

    I certainly appreciate your insights into China, as well as your perspectives on spirituality. Very interesting reads.

  202. 204 Virginia Davis
    August 20, 2008 at 08:16


    A “test” to vote. No, you did not understand. It was in the context of a discussion with Mohammed Ali of Liberia. And of a number of African dictators. Insane African dictators.

    It was not to “exclude” which of course there have been a number here in the US, if not elsewhere.

    How to have a “sane” democracy with “sane” leaders and “sane” followers? By a simple test when you register to vote. It involves imagining a simple test which can, in fact, question the sanity of insane people. I have been diagnosed “insane” since my late 20’s but do not consider myself “insane.”

    How would you set up a democracy with elected officials which did not elect
    really crazy people who set the military against groups who opposed them and killed them, or in the case of George Bush, tried to severely change American government but being “the decider?”

    I hope this clarifies what I was getting at…..

    Virginia in Oregon

  203. 205 Jonathan
    August 20, 2008 at 08:28

    Bob, I’ll feel safer in six months, assuming my almost-former- neighbor Sen. Obama makes it. Until then, it’s been eight solid years of one of those nightmares where you’re drowning.

  204. 206 Jonathan
    August 20, 2008 at 08:51

    Bob– I think “the religion that gives the old testament more weight than the teachings of Christ” is called Judaism… but it’s not so simple as that, and I’m pretty sure our help isn’t needed, renaming or otherwise!

  205. 207 Shirley
    August 20, 2008 at 09:09

    Virginia, as much as one sleep-deprived brain can be clarified, mine is. Thank you.

  206. 208 Bob in Queensland
    August 20, 2008 at 09:17

    @ Jonathan

    You’d think it would be Judaism, wouldn’t you. However, that description seems also to fit “good, old-fashioned, eye-for-an-eye, stone the adulterer, evangelical Christianity”….and that’s the one that could use a shorter, catchier name!

  207. 209 Bryan
    August 20, 2008 at 11:22

    Angela in Washington D.C. August 19, 2008 at 9:20 pm

    “The only thing I want is to make sure that when I have kids, they won’t think it is normal for two men or two women to be together. I beleive in tolerance but I do not appreciate being told that I must accept something when it is against my beleifs.”

    I agree completely. Ain’t nothing wrong with children growing up in a normal household with a mother and father figure, though it sometimes appears that the strident homosexual community would like us to think that there is.

  208. 210 Bryan
    August 20, 2008 at 11:23

    I meant to add that I gotta run so if anyone trashes my argument I wont be able to respond for some time.

  209. 211 Katharina in Ghent
    August 20, 2008 at 11:36

    Hi everyone,

    Of all the homosexual people I’ve met in my life, I would say that 95% of them had no choice about it, and they were it right from the beginning. The other five percent were attracted to that specific person, irregardless of the gender. I also have met gay/lesbian couples with children (through AI) and they were the most loving parents one can imagine. When you have to go through so many troubles to become a parent then you treasure it much more.

    As for the African church for homosexuals: I worry about their safety, primarily. As Nelson pointed out, being homosexual in Africa is like having a Death-wish, and to openly promote homosexuality and give it a public meeting place will make all those who oppose it just lighten their torches at the correct time. I think a lot more has to happen there first before you can go and fund your own church.

  210. 212 Bob in Queensland
    August 20, 2008 at 12:21

    In her introduction, Kate uses the phrase “traditional African values” to describe the opposition to homosexuality which seems to be the norm in Africa.

    This leads me to a question for our African bloggers: are attitudes to homosexuality really “African values” or are they an import brought to the continent by missionaries of various faiths?

  211. 213 Tom
    August 20, 2008 at 12:29

    Thanks Shirley. Likewise here. 🙂

  212. 214 steve
    August 20, 2008 at 12:30

    @ Jessica

    “If I understand your logic correctly, the intervention of science should not give people “unnatural” options.
    Does this include impotence men not getting erections with the assistance of vigra?”

    Well, that’s a good argument, but I could easily counter it with the examples you provided as being medical problems. Homosexuals not being able to have children is not a medical problem, it’s nature, because it’s impossible for homosexual sex to produce offspring. It would be like ME, as a male, wanting to give birth. I can’t, but I’m sure with science, I could. So when you take viagra, or whatever, you’re using science to treat a medical problem so that you become “normal” medically. Even in that case, it’s still different with homosexuals, because normal and natural means they can’t have kids due to impossibility. It’s the same with a 65 year old woman who wants kids. Normally, it’s impossible. At a certain age, women cannot have kids, that’s natural. But should you then use science to get you to be able to do what wouldn’t be possible naturally? That’s a bit different than thank taking a drug to make your kidneys work properly, as it’s not necessarily a normal thing to have failing kidneys, but every woman if she lives long enough, will stop being fertile.. There’s also a huge difference between taking medication to fight cancer and taking drugs for fertility. Cancer will kill you, not having kids won’t kill you.

  213. 215 steve
    August 20, 2008 at 12:33

    @ Jamily

    There are lots of people who are bisexual, but who think they are completely homosexual for some periods of time, then switch to the opposite sex. I’ve never been to Las Vegas, but my brother goes there all the time and he tells me about the “weekend lesbians” there. I’ve known plenty of women that go back and forth between men and women.

  214. 216 steve
    August 20, 2008 at 12:35

    @ Jennifer

    “I don’t think there is anything selfish about wanting to be a parent!”

    I think there is. The world is overcrowded, we have limited resources, can anyone ngive a reason why you need a child other than that you just want to have one for the sake of having one? That’s the definition of selfish.

  215. 217 Angela in Washington D.C.
    August 20, 2008 at 12:41


    Although I understand your opinion concerning women wanting to have kids, I can also state that some people really want to have their own offspring. Their kids represent a part of the parents and one can adopt kids and still love their kids, some people would give almost anything to have kids of their own. Usually those people do not think that their gene pool is so important that it must be continued but believe it is a blessing. This is for individuals that are infertile.

    However, homoesexual women make a big deal about having kids with their partners and I am always amazed because you always have to get a male donor. I don’t see why it would make a difference if it was natural insemination or artificial. Women still need a man and men still need a women.

    Both examples may describe selfish individuals but many times these people have a lot of love to give. They could adopt and often times they do. On the other hand, you have some men that will divorce their wives if they can’t concieve and vice versa.

  216. 218 Katharina in Ghent
    August 20, 2008 at 12:44


    I don’t think that having a child is selfish, rather the complete opposite: once your child is born, the least important person is yourself, and this wish to care for somebody else is the source of the childwish in the first place. Once you haven’t slept through one single night for 18 months and decide that you don’t want another child, that’s when selfishness kinda kicks in. – Or plain survival instinct…

  217. 219 Jonathan
    August 20, 2008 at 13:49


    Yes, I can give you a reason for people to haave children. Not “selfishness” (do you have any IDEA of the work involved in bringing up a child? Selfish is the LAST thing you could call parents!).

    A little thing called love.

    Never mind.

  218. 220 steve
    August 20, 2008 at 13:51

    @ Jonathan

    Then we’ll have to agree to disagree. I think having kids is selfish, because people do it for no other reason than just wanting them, or having a legacy, something like that.

  219. 221 Jennifer
    August 20, 2008 at 14:03


    I disagree. I don’t think there is anything selfish about having a child. The world may be overcrowded and we may have limited resources but is ceasing to have children really the answer? I don’t think so. I know alot of people who have children-they are always buying new stuff for them not to mention the basics of taking care of a child. If people live their life in a conscious way, don’t they have a right to have a child? I think so.

  220. 222 steve
    August 20, 2008 at 14:09

    @ Jennifer

    A “right” to have a child? Your rights end where mine begin. I brought this up a while ago, but this is a side issue really, but when your “rights” impact me, they should no longer be your rights. If they had baby airlines, where it was only families, more power to you. But your “right” to have a child had me sitting between two kids who were vomiting on me an entire flight across the atlantic.

    So people buying stuff for their kids means they aren’t selfish? So fashion accessory has the trendiest clothes, wow..

    Again, the only argument people ever have for having kids is because they “want them”. That’s the definition of being selfish.

    There’s lots of things that I want, and have the ability to get, but I choose not to.

  221. 223 Jonathan
    August 20, 2008 at 14:18

    Seriously WHYS, if we’re going to be talking about homosexuality, may I suggest that some better questions deriving from the cases in the opening post.

    From the first case: Why is Africa still in stubborn denial and hatred of homosexuals?

    From tehe second case: Can medical professionals cite religious grounds for refusing to do their jobs?

    The third case…. well, not much fertile ground there, pardon the pun.

    I might point out that the largest, richest state in the largest, richest country in the world made a seismic shift a couple of months ago by legalizing same-sex marriage. Might that circumstance possibly be of any interest to anyone in the world? How is it working out in California? Has marriage survived? Recent California wildfires–Coincidence, or God’s wrath?

    That’s my say!

  222. 224 Jonathan
    August 20, 2008 at 14:29

    Ooops, I see the parade passed me by. You still might save the California same-sex-marriage topic for a slow day though.

  223. 225 Jennifer
    August 20, 2008 at 15:07

    @ Steve

    Yes, people have a RIGHT to have children if they so choose. If a couple decides to have a child who am I to tell them that they can not do so? I guess if you found yourself on an airplane sitting next to sick children and were unable to handle it then it would be your right to choose to take another flight. While other people’s choices effect me to a certain extent and I might not agree with them I have no right to tell anyone what choices to make.

    With regards to parents spending money on their children, I was referring to the economy not fashion. Do you not think that parents spend a significant amount of money on their children? That money stimulates the economy. Our economy is already so stunted if people stopped spending completely we would only be worse off. Also, if couples did not reproduce how would the human species survive?
    I guess it wouldn’t matter then because noone would be alive.

  224. 226 steve
    August 20, 2008 at 15:11

    @ Jennifer

    “Yes, people have a RIGHT to have children if they so choose. If a couple decides to have a child who am I to tell them that they can not do so? I guess if you found yourself on an airplane sitting next to sick children and were unable to handle it then it would be your right to choose to take another flight.”

    So are you suggesting midflight, I can decide to take another flight? What’s to stop me from sitting next to kids on the next flight? I have no control over who the airline puts next to me. The result was that got vomited on for an entire transatlantic flight. At work, people get sick all the time because people’s kids get sick at school, then get the parents sick, and then the parents come into work and get everyone else sick.

    What do people have a “right” to have a child? Because they think they do? I know people who think they have a right to drink and drive, because they think they do. And they are incredibly selfish as you can tell. Hence how I view people wanting kids, becuase they only want them for selfish reasons.

  225. 227 Katharina in Ghent
    August 20, 2008 at 15:20


    Quite frankly, I worked as a flight attendant for four years and I’ve seen an equal amount of adults and children throwing up. I’m sorry that you had bad experiences with children on flights, but with the same conviction one can say that anybody who has the money to buy a ticket has a right to go on the plane, no matter what their condition. I’ve seen people being so fat that they didn’t fit into their seats and the person next to them had to be seated somewhere else, I’ve seen an old woman wetting herself and two (!) adjacent seats, effectively reducing the number of available seats for the return flight and so on. Children are not the only thing that can ruin your flight – or your life.

  226. 228 steve
    August 20, 2008 at 15:24

    @ Katharina

    It wouldn’t have been so bad had the parents at least done something. They just did nothing, didn’t even apologize, let alone offer to to pay a cleaning bill. I also had to go through US customs smelling like vomit, and that got me “special” scrutiny and as a result I got to miss my connecting flight, had to get another flight, to ANOTHER airport, and then spend a LOT of money to get back to the proper airport where my car was..

  227. 229 Katharina in Ghent
    August 20, 2008 at 15:33

    @ Steve

    Yeah, that the parents didn’t do anything doen’t throw a good light on them at all. But this doesn’t mean that all parents are like that, it’s more a sign of general bad behaviour and I can only wonder what they are going to teach their children. On the other hand, when I lived in Toronto, I was quite impressed with how the parents put the emphasis on teaching their children in the park to be considerate of other (younger) children. That’s not happening in Austria (or Belgium).

  228. 230 Angela in Washington
    August 20, 2008 at 15:34


    You have had a lot of bed experiences with children, so I can see your point of view. I have the same problem with dogs, as you have with kids. I can’t stand smelling them, hearing them bark, seeing the stuff they leave around parks and apartments. I have several friends with dogs but I would never stay at their place. I also can understand the love they have for their pets. I see pets as worse than kids.

  229. 231 Amy
    August 20, 2008 at 15:34


    Okay, I’ll bite. When are your “rights” infringing on mine!! Or are you the center of the universe, emperor of all things? If you detest the thought of being seated next to child, fly business or first class. Rarely have I seen children there. Before you go into the cost issue, since I think it is easy to assume you aren’t married and have no children and as you have said, “There’s lots of things that I want, and have the ability to get, but I choose not to.” If you want to have a peaceful flight, choose to sit up at the front of the plane. I bet you also think we selfish people shouldn’t be allowed in a restaurant either (unless it is fast food, but then we are bad parents for feeding our children junk). It really seems that with you, it is a lose/lose situation. If a poster has kids, they are selfish. If a poster is thinking about having kids, they are selfish. I think you might be the selfish one, thinking that your rights (or perceived rights) trump everyone else.

  230. 232 Bob in Queensland
    August 20, 2008 at 15:37

    @ Steve

    I share your pain. I once had a stewardess pour orange juice and champagne all over me right after take off and spent the entire flight sticky and smelling of wine…which didn’t do me much good at the car hire desk.

    However, if I reacted with the same venom as you I guess I’d have to say that anyone who decides to get a job in the cabin crew is selfish and clumsy.

    Get a grip! One bad experience doesn’t make all children sick or all parents selfish.

  231. 233 steve
    August 20, 2008 at 15:38

    @ Amy

    “If a poster has kids, they are selfish. If a poster is thinking about having kids, they are selfish. I think you might be the selfish one, thinking that your rights (or perceived rights) trump everyone else.”

    My actions and choices don’t impact other people. How is that being selfish? It’s less selfish if my choices impact other people? Think about it.

    So if I buy a massive SUV, which weighs a lot, and put’s everyone else on the road at risk, becuase I have kids, that’s not being selfish. Better for you to die than for me and my kids to die? Wow, I’m so flattered..

  232. 234 Katharina in Ghent
    August 20, 2008 at 15:38

    @ Amy

    Well said, but I think Steve was just calming down a bit… or am I mothering him now? 😉

  233. 235 Katharina in Ghent
    August 20, 2008 at 15:40

    @ Bob

    I hope that wasn’t me… no, can’t have been, I only spilled red wine on white shirts.

  234. 236 steve
    August 20, 2008 at 15:41

    @ Bob

    It wasn’t just one experience. That was just one example. In my apartment building, a couple recently had a kid, and they let her play in the hallways. While the rooms are soundproof apartment to apartment, it isn’t soundproof from hallway to apartment, so we all get to hear the screaming, etc. They also leave the toys in the hallways. That’s not that big of a deal, as I don’t live next to them. The worst aspect is they change the diapers in the hallway, so their apartment doesn’t have to smell, but now the hallway smells. of course that’s not selfish! Making everyone else pay the price for your choice to have a kid.

  235. 237 Jennifer
    August 20, 2008 at 15:43


    I am suggesting that if you do not want to sit by children on a flight that maybe you might notice it before the plane takes off since it is of great concern for you? You stated yourself “your rights end where mine begin”, right? That works both ways.

    If someone makes a choice to drink and drive that would be what it would be: a choice. I do see your perspective of thinking that it is selfish of someone else to have children who may cause you an inconvenience at some time but in my view that’s selfish; expecting others to base important life decisions around if you are inconvenienced by children.

  236. 238 steve
    August 20, 2008 at 15:50

    @ Jennifer

    Flights these days are COMPLETELY booked, becuase they have fewer flights due to increased fuel costs. It’s not a realistic possibility to get one’s seat changed once seats have been assigned when a flight is full. As I said, your rights end where mine begin. I’m curious how I’m infringing on someone’s rights while sitting on a plane. I’m being quiet, reading, and I’m not overweight. That’s different than me screaming, spilling over onto someone else’s seat, or vomiting on someone.

    It’s selfish of me to not want people to inconvenience me or annoy me? I guess I’ll bring a boombox into the next movie I see in the theater. I’ll make sure it only makes as much noise as a crying baby does. maybe I’ll talk on my cell phone. Oh wait, if I want to talk on the cell phone, I shouldn’t go to the movie. If you’ve got a baby, you’ve waived your privilege to seeing movies unless you get a babysitter. If you want to go out to a nice dinner, you’ve waived your privilege unless you get a baby sitter. I don’t pay money so that you can ruin my evening. I actually find that worse than the flying thing, because sometimes you have no choice but to fly your kids. ie if a family member dies in europe, and you’ve go to go. That’s very different than bringing your screaming kid to a nice restaurant, ruining everyone else’s time becuase you were too selfish to stay at home or get a babysitter. Sometimes it gets so bad that the management will apologize to customers and offer free deserts. They’ll often say they wish people wouldn’t bring their kids to places. Imagine having your anniversary disrupted by a screaming kid.

  237. 239 Bob in Queensland
    August 20, 2008 at 15:56

    @ Steve

    I now have this image of you as that L’il Abner character with the dark cloud permanently over his head. I can’t think of anyone else I know who has been as unlucky as you in terms of dealing with neighbours with children.

  238. 240 Amy
    August 20, 2008 at 15:56


    Thank you!


    I do think you are probably a nice person (since we’ve never met I’ll jump to this conclusion) but you do seem to have a problem with other people inconveniencing you, which makes your comfort level more important, which is selfish.

    Changing diapers in the hallway so your apartment doesn’t smell is incredibly rude to everyone else in that building and is uncalled for but you seem to think this is how all parents are. It simply isn’t true. Maybe you have a rude and insensitive magnet buried in you that attracts these people (could it be named the D.C. area? No offense Angela!!) For all the parents out there who do try to do their best and make sure that their children are well behaved, I apologize.

  239. 241 Amy
    August 20, 2008 at 15:58


    Thanks for the L’il Abner mental image. I think it is perfect!

  240. 242 Bob in Queensland
    August 20, 2008 at 16:01

    @ Katharina in Ghent

    I hope that wasn’t me

    Not unless you were working for British Scareways on a LHR to LAX run in the late 1990s!

  241. 243 Julie P
    August 20, 2008 at 16:30

    @Amy and Bob,

    There is just no pleasing some people, L’il Abner is a perfect example.

  242. 244 gary
    August 20, 2008 at 17:12

    As a casual observer of humanity, I find debates concerning homosexuality most fascinating. Few topics generate more hot air supported by such miniscule understanding. Many speak of subverting science and of offending nature, as if they understood either. Others speak of offending the Creator as if they had His phone number on speed dial. My observations suggest homosexuality is a relatively common (certainly more so than the occurrence of genius), involuntarily developed sexual behavior pattern. I don’t know what, if any, role genetics, epigenomics, or nurture play, and I don’t care. All parents start has amateurs and many fail to progress much beyond this status. They make mistakes with a first born, vow to not repeat them, and make completely different mistakes with its siblings. Fortunately, the good they are able accomplish usually results from loving and caring, not professionalism. I see nothing in homosexuality that precludes being a loving, caring parent. And in the end, these are the characteristics that make society strong and resilient; but simultaneously soft and supportive.

  243. 245 Jamily5
    August 20, 2008 at 17:39

    Is something wrong with the BP?
    I posted the following message quite sometime ago and it says that the comment is “awaiting moderation.”
    It sounds like something is wrong with the bp.
    Also, before clicking on it, it reports that there are only 113 comments: yet, I know that there are at least 183.
    August 20, 2008 at 5:17 am
    Interesting article, bob.
    I’ll process that one and get back with you. I welcome a friendly debate, even when the views expressed are differently than my own.
    But, it is after 12:00, here and I can’t stay up much longer.

    Your comment is awaiting moderation.

  244. 246 Jennifer
    August 20, 2008 at 19:39


    You have a right to do anything you like, but so does anyone who has children. With regards to your rights being infringed on by a child throwing up on you, how can a parent control if their child is ill? If they know their child is ill before they fly then that is a choice they make. It is not the choice every parent would make but they have the right to make that choice for themselves because like you said, they could be on an spur of the moment emergancy trip.

    If a family decides to dine at a nice restaurant, they should be able to take their children. That does not mean the parents should let their children run around like hooligans but they have the right to eat there just as everyone else does. The way I see it is if someone goes so far as to let a child’s crying ruin their anniversary night out they are hard pressed for things to complain about.

    I think we should just agree to disagree because my opinion will not change. 🙂

  245. August 20, 2008 at 21:13


    You say, “I think having kids is selfish, because people do it for no other reason than just wanting them, or having a legacy, something like that.”

    I may be wrong, but when I had my daughters we didn’t just “want to have kids.” It is, or was, much deeper than that. It was like my marriage was ripening.

  246. 248 Jamily5
    August 21, 2008 at 00:17

    Is something wrong with my comments?
    Every time I post a comment, it takes hours to show up.
    It continues to be on the “awaiting moderation” list.
    Explain please?

  247. 249 Jamily5
    August 21, 2008 at 00:27

    It sounds like Steve has found some quite selfish and impolite neighbors.
    My children went into nice restaurants and they never ran around or called any attention to themselves.
    We were there for the same reason that you would be there: to enjoy a nice meal.
    And, I believe that you should take children to such places.
    They need to know how to act in such places.
    I find that children who have not had such experiences, might not know how to act when they do.
    So, parents should take their children to a nice restaurant, to the theater, to a concert, on a plane etc.
    I am interested to know:
    Steve, when you find that these children are ill-mannered and untrained, do you say anything to the parents?
    If so, what?
    I have politely expressed my annoyance to parents.
    Sometimes with rude neighbors, I have had to do this several times.

  248. 250 Jamily5
    August 21, 2008 at 00:41

    Concerning dogs,
    I had the same concerns about getting a dog.
    I don’t like dogs that jump up on people, or are too rowdy, or get on furniture, or chew up property, or bark insessantly, or growl at anyone/anything, or … … …
    But, I now have a guide dog. I have found that a well trained dog will not do these things.
    I was at a meeting, once and another blind woman brought her guide dog.
    she let her dog run around the meeting place.
    when she finally did put her dog on the leash, the dog pulled at the leash, as if she had not ever been trained. Her dog wanted to play with my dog.
    Her dog had been known to take food from unsuspecting hands.
    And, to top it off, she had (on two other occasions) left her dog’s “deposits” for others to tend to.
    I was disgusted.
    If my dog ever makes a mess, I always try and clean it up.
    And, my dog is well trained in public places.
    And, I have to continue with that training. I have to continue to re-enforce it.
    If my dog causes anyone inconvenience, I appologize and attempt to make the situation better for them.
    I even try to stuff my dog under chairs, etc so that other people don’t have to step over him.
    But, there are both parents and dog owners who are unwilling to take the responsibilities that go along with having children or owning a dog.
    That does not mean that we are selfish for having them.
    But, many are selfish for not training them properly.
    I am not saying that children are dogs.
    I am just saying that parents bear the responsibility of teaching and that takes time and effort and consistency… …

  249. 251 Bryan
    August 21, 2008 at 08:57

    There was a fairly simple solution to Steve’s dilemma on the plane. One of the parents should have sat with the children so that Steve could have sat with the other parent, away from the children. Some parents can be unaware that other people exist in these situations with a selfishness that is quite extraordinary.

  250. 252 Philip Dewhurst
    August 21, 2008 at 19:36

    Jamily5, I do not mean to be rude, or in any way inflect personal injury or abuse, but how do you manage to gather all these facts, considering that your dissability requires you to have a guide dog, best for you and your dog.

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