Talking points 19 August.

Goodmorning it’s Karnie again…Thanks to Nelson in Nigeria, Steve in the US and Robert in the UK for looking after the blog over night.

We talked about President Musharraf of Pakistan accepting resignation yesterday instead of facing impeachment and we asked: Would the world be more dangerous without Musharraf? Ahmad on the whys blog would like to look at this topic again but he would like to focus on: A Democratic Pakistan. He says: “A Democratic Pakistan is the greatest benefit for the World.”

Ahmad also says: “Since dictatorship weakens a state, and democracy strengthens it, only a purely democratic government will ensure a strong Pakistan. Pakistan is back on the track of progress now.”

So, what next for President Musharraf and Pakistan? Is it only fair to give a democratically elected Pakistan a fair chance to prove itself to the world?


Russia continues to defy the west with troops still remaining in Georgia. NATO members will meet today to discuss the conflict between Georgia and Russia once again. Russia insists it has started to pull back its troops, but a BBC correspondent in the village of Igoeti, thirty-five kilometres from the Georgian capital Tbilisi, says Russian forces remain firmly in control there.

Is Russia right to ignore a rules-based International political system? It’s certainly not the only country in the world in defiance of International law. What is Russia playing at and what should the International community do next?


Viola on the whys blog wants to talk about Kashmir. This is her blog:

Is Kashmir proof that separating populations by religion or ethnicity doesn’t work? India was partitioned by the Brits into two countries with huge displacements of population resulting. Now, the same old conflict is taking place between the Muslims and Hindus in Kashmir. We all know the result of partitioning of the Palestine Mandate into Palestine and Israel. Isn’t it time to find some other solution to problems caused by differences within populations?”

More on Kashmir here.


And what about this topic you’ve been posting on: Going for Gold -Athletes changing nationalities in order to compete in the Olympics? What happened to national allegiance? Or is an Olympic medal more important than one’s country?

175 Responses to “Talking points 19 August.”

  1. 1 steve
    August 18, 2008 at 19:37

    Good afternoon/evening. This is one of the larger pieces of news in the US, though I don’t know why, the office of the Vice President, according to John Adams, is the least important job in the world. But apparently the VPs will be getting announced soon.


  2. 2 Julie P
    August 18, 2008 at 19:42


    It’s all a lot hype that is getting generated by the pundits. I’m sure that’s how they can rationalize their job.

  3. 3 Katharina in Ghent
    August 18, 2008 at 19:42

    Hi everyone,

    Take a look at this:


    A single watermelon in a community in Northern Labrador costs 55$ cdn. What I don’t understand why they even bother to ship subsidized perishable produce up there when the people still can’t afford to buy it, ever.

  4. 4 nelsoni
    August 18, 2008 at 19:44

    Hi every one. Nelson here. I came across this very interesting story. Freedom of expression vs Religion : Serbia Withdraws US Book after Muslim Protests.

  5. 5 steve
    August 18, 2008 at 19:46

    re: watermelon

    When I was in Japan I was amazed by the price of melons. I got really tempted to buy one of those square watermelons but realized I’d be just throwing away $100 and couldn’t bring it home anyways.

  6. 6 Katharina in Ghent
    August 18, 2008 at 19:56

    re: VP

    If the job of the VP is so unimportant, then why is Dick Cheney hated by so many? (Just asking, because I never quite understood the details about this.)

  7. 7 roebert
    August 18, 2008 at 19:57

    My sense of where the US is going wrong in the world is that those in power are committing one tactical blunder after another in the pursuit of a strategy that I can’t figure out.

    Does anyone know what, in a general sense, current US international strategy is? And how is this strategy being forwarded by the war in Iraq, threats of war on Iran, turning Russia into an enemy, wanting to install nukes in Georgia, alienating most of continental Europe, more or less ignoring Africa while China takes over the continent, and becoming China’s greatest all round friend?

    This isn’t one of those ‘the Americans are just plain dumb’ insinuations. I don’t think they’re dumb. I just really want to know what they’re up to, what their aims are, and why they seem never to achieve any stable settlements and relationships in the world?

    Or is it all on account of the Bush administration that things are looking so confused?

  8. 8 Venessa
    August 18, 2008 at 19:57

    nelsoni ~

    I think it’s ridiculous the book was pulled in the US market because some find it “offensive.” Please! Choose to read it or don’t.

  9. 9 Katharina in Ghent
    August 18, 2008 at 19:57

    re: Japan

    Food in general is quite expensive there, did you see their steaks from beef that had been fed beer and listened to Mozart all the time? It looked more like Italian marble than meat.

  10. 10 Julie P
    August 18, 2008 at 20:02


    The VP’s position in the past has normally been to turn up at dignitaries funerals and other functions befitting a high official. Normally a VP’s term goes down in obscurity. Occasionally a VP can have some impact on a president, like Dan Quayle did with Bush Sr. Quayle was in an idiot. Can spell potato(e)? Or fighting with a fictional tv personality? Cheney is the first VP who has given teeth to the vice presidency.

  11. 11 steve
    August 18, 2008 at 20:03

    Interesting story. A guy is threatening to kill himself by crashing his Cessna. Apparently a shopping center was ordered evacuated.


  12. 12 Venessa
    August 18, 2008 at 20:03

    Kathrina ~

    Have you tried it? Just curious if anyone has on this blog.

  13. 13 nelsoni
    August 18, 2008 at 20:03

    @ venessa. I think we are being held to ransom. I can’t think of a better word to use, being told what to read or not

  14. 14 Venessa
    August 18, 2008 at 20:07

    nelsoni ~ you are absolutely correct.

  15. 15 Venessa
    August 18, 2008 at 20:08

    Julie ~

    don’t forget he shot someone too…. 😉

  16. 16 Julie P
    August 18, 2008 at 20:10


    That was Cheney, but since Dan is a “Quayle” I would advise Dan to stay very far away from Dick. 🙂

  17. 17 Katharina in Ghent
    August 18, 2008 at 20:13

    @ Venessa

    No, I didn’t, it was really ridiculously expensive (just can’t remember how much exactly). But I’ve been told that it practically melts in your mouth.

  18. 18 Venessa
    August 18, 2008 at 20:14

    Julie ~

    I was referring to Cheney. Sorry I didn’t specify. Maybe those two should go on a hunting trip together…..

  19. 19 Julie P
    August 18, 2008 at 20:16



  20. 20 Venessa
    August 18, 2008 at 20:16

    Katharina ~

    I’m sure it does melt in your mouth. The beef are marinating in beer their entire lives how could it not be good! Maybe someone else here on the blog has tried it and can let us know. I would probably opt not to eat it either because of the ridiculous cost.

  21. 22 Katharina in Ghent
    August 18, 2008 at 20:22

    @ Julie

    But what exactly was it that made Cheney so unpopular? Being the VP of a not particularly smart president alone can’t have been the reason, right?

  22. 23 Katharina in Ghent
    August 18, 2008 at 20:24

    @ Venessa

    You shouldn’t have posted the story of the baby whale, it’s a tear-jerker!

  23. 24 Venessa
    August 18, 2008 at 20:27

    I hope the baby whale finds its mamma but highly unlikely. I wonder how it got separated. 😦

  24. 25 Julie P
    August 18, 2008 at 20:28


    I’m going to skip over his Haliburton role, that could be an entire forum.

    From what I can see about Dick is that he has a very strong personality and appears to be very dominating and domineering. There have been times where I swear George and Dick have played good cop bad cop, with George as the good cop and Dick as the bad cop. Personally, I’ve always felt that Dick is the one wearing the pants in the White House.

  25. 26 Ahmad Hammad
    August 18, 2008 at 20:34

    After discussing Musharraf’s resignation in perspective of a safer world after him, why shouldn’t we discuss a NEW DEMOCRATIC PAKISTAN without any further military coups ever…..?

  26. 27 Dan
    August 18, 2008 at 20:37

    @ Julie P
    If Dan Quayle is an idiot (Potato-e) what is Barak Obama “I’ll campaign in all 57 states”, Al Gore “E plurbus Unim means from one many”, Hillary Clinton who is still bothered by smniper fire. This can go on ad nauseum.
    The truth is that with rare exception no politician achieves position without making syntax mistakes. They are not idiots.

  27. 28 Ahmad Hammad
    August 18, 2008 at 20:38

    A Democratic Pakistan is in the greatest benefit for the World around.
    Since dictatorship weakens a state, and democracy strengthens it, only a purely democratic government will ensure a strong Pakistan.

    And a stronger Pakistan will be a greater friend of its friends…

    To Stephen P Cohen, every state around the world wishes for a stronger Pakistan, except India. This wish of the world can’t be fulfilled till a dictatorship is imposed over Pakistan.

    We don’t discuss Musharraf. We discuss dictatorship, any form of it named Zia, Yahya, Ayub or Musharraf…

  28. 29 Julie P
    August 18, 2008 at 20:45


    Dan Quayle is the only one who has ever gotten into a public fight with a fictional tv character. That’s stupidity.

  29. 30 Dan
    August 18, 2008 at 20:49

    @ Julie P
    he did not get into a fight with “Murphy Brown” he criticized the lifestyle and lifestyle choices she was portraying. Those are legitimate areas for criticism & debate.

  30. 31 Ahmad Hammad
    August 18, 2008 at 20:54

    Nelson and Steve!
    Greeting from Lahore, Pakistan…

  31. 32 Julie P
    August 18, 2008 at 20:54


    He fought with “Murphy Brown”. I remember it very well. And if all the VP of the US has time to do is be critical of a strong woman’s potrayal in a television, then the position needs to be eliminated. He did not have enough to keep him occupied.

  32. 33 Ahmad Hammad
    August 18, 2008 at 21:05

    Nelson and Steve:
    Ms Dorris Lessing who won the Nobel prize for literature last year, declared that Mugabe had lost his mental balance. And his companions were not announcing this much cruel reality because their benefits were attached to Mugabe’s being in power.

    Similarly, I (although I’m not a Nobel prize winner poet) decalre that Musharraf had lost his control over his mental activities. It was his companions who were afraid of declaring this reality because doing so would have deprived them of their benefits attached to Musharraf’s being in power.

    Pakistan is back on the track of progress now. The Taliban has vowed to stop their armed struggle against the state of Pakistan.

  33. 34 Dan
    August 18, 2008 at 21:11

    @ Julie P
    You betray your argument and show your bias.
    I too remember the incident. It is simply not possible to get into an argument with a non-existent character …… potato(e) or no.
    Dan Qualye argued in a San Francisco speech that the Los Angeles riots were caused in part by a “poverty of values” that included the acceptance of unwed motherhood, as celebrated in popular culture by the CBS comedy series Murphy Brown. The title character, a divorced news anchorwoman, got pregnant and chose to have the baby, a boy, who was delivered on last Monday’s episode, Quayle criticized that “It doesn’t help matters when a character who supposedly epitomizes today’s intelligent, highly paid professional woman is portrayed as mocking the importance of fathers, by bearing a child alone, and calling it just another ‘life-style choice.’ ”
    Now tell me…who is he arguing with or is he criticizing the lifestyle presented and asking if that lifstyle actually uplifts our society?

  34. 35 Julie P
    August 18, 2008 at 21:15


    If you are not citing your your source, you are plagarizing. You just copy pasted that from the Wiki website. By the way, your bias is showing.

  35. 36 Dan
    August 18, 2008 at 21:27

    @ Julie P
    Wikipedia is not accurate nor do I use it. I know that it is an easy way to look up background material without doing any work or understanding the material.
    What I wrote is a compilation from several sources which include Time magazine, NY Times et al.
    Your argument fell apart when you mentions “Strong Woman”. Does a woman become strong by willingly becoming a single parent? Does a child not need a father in their life? Is the ideal of a Mother and Father not in your lexicon?
    A woman becomes strong in many other ways. I would think you would have known that.

  36. 37 nelsoni
    August 18, 2008 at 21:33

    @ Ahamad Hammad. Hello 🙂 and Welcome to the talking points page. I agree with you that Robert Mugabe has lost mental balance and touch with reality. He is not the only one. I once advocated that aspiring political office holders should be subjected to a Psychiatric test and evaluation to ensure they are mentally stable. Because we potentially have a lot of Mentally unstable people as leaders of nations.

  37. August 18, 2008 at 21:35

    @nelsoni, the muslims will protest everything on earth till they will one day protest the existence of the very koran.

  38. 39 Venessa
    August 18, 2008 at 21:36

    nelsoni ~ I am all for a psychiatric test & evaluation for leaders of nations!

  39. 40 Julie P
    August 18, 2008 at 21:39


    My argument did not fall apart with “strong woman”. My argument did not fall apart at all. The character also was a vocal piece of strong opinions and was portrayed as a recovering alcoholic. That also makes a woman or a person Strong. The character went on to have a successful career and was a contributing person to a society.

    What’s more do not patronize me with “A woman becomes strong in many other ways. I would think you would have known that.” If a woman chooses to be a single parent and has the means to do it, meaning more than just monetarily, then it is perfectly acceptable.

    As for the other fallacious questions that you ask me, they do not dignify a response.

    Finally, history has not been kind to Dan Qualye. He had many gaffes as a Vice President and is not regarded as intelligent.

  40. 41 nelsoni
    August 18, 2008 at 21:41

    @ Mohammed Ali, as controversial as it may seem, I think we are being held to ransom. What is wrong about wanting to know more about his wife or is there something to hide? When Dan Brown published the DaVinci code, suggesting that Jesus christ was married, even though the book was a work of fiction, Christians did not go on Rampage or protests. Compare with the cartoon protests and now this book protests.

  41. 42 nelsoni
    August 18, 2008 at 21:43

    @ Venessa. You will be amazed to find out how many mentally unstable world leaders we could potentially have should such tests be carried out.

  42. August 18, 2008 at 21:46

    @robert, Bush’s foreign policy is to make enemy, ignore China’s expansion in Africa, make more war there by leading to insecurity abroad for ordinary americans.

  43. August 18, 2008 at 21:52

    @nelsoni, I wish I had one of that book to read. I read the Di Vinci Code almost every week. I love reading every controversial book about religion.

  44. 45 Ahmad Hammad
    August 18, 2008 at 21:56

    Well Said!
    I wonder if you could name a few…
    Is George Bush included among them?

    Well, shouldn’t we discuss the issue on the 19th of August i.e. “should aspiring political office holders be subjected to a Psychiatric test and evaluation to ensure they are mentally stable?”?

  45. 46 Venessa
    August 18, 2008 at 21:58

    Sadly nelsoni I don’t think I would be surprised…

    As far as suppressing writings of other people I suspect the protests occur out of fear. I also find that while the premise of most religions is not always bad, it humors me that no one wants you to question any of the reasoning (absurd as some as it is) behind a given faith.

  46. August 18, 2008 at 22:00

    @psychiatric test, this was the exact suggestion that Dr. H. Boima Fahnbulleh, Jr., one of Liberia’s foremost educated men and security advisor to the president, made when he appeared before the True and Reconciliation Commission in Monrovia. He said this was necessary because Liberia has had many mentally unstable leaders in the past who plunged the country into chaos. I agree with it too.

  47. 48 Ahmad Hammad
    August 18, 2008 at 22:02

    I hosted the blank page back in June and it was a marvellous experience for me. I enjoyed it altogether.
    I had been awake for the whole night and even after going to my office, I kept an editing eye on the blogs I was receiving that night.
    On that night, the page received the maximum hits ever till that date.

    I learnt from the blogs a lot. 🙂

    I am sure, you must be enjoying and learning a lot.

    “Well-done” for the so far editing and Great Wishes for the rest of time….


  48. 49 Dan
    August 18, 2008 at 22:02

    @ Julie P
    I have to admit that I am amused. It has been my experience that when one has a vociferous liberal (do not read liberal as being bad) viewpoint they shut themselves off from other arguments or points of view no matter how much data is presented.
    Having a baby absent a father does not make a woman strong no matter how much money she has. Women become “strong” in ways that I think you may not have discovered yet. However anger also does not make a woman strong and It seems that I have touched a nerve.
    Therefore “What makes a woman strong” may be a valid talking point one day.
    As for the other “fallatious” question how can you so blithely dismiss something so very important?
    Lastly history has not written about Dan Quayle. Talking heads and psuedo intellectuals have only expressed their opinion.
    Too bad we only get to talk thru WHYS I’d love to debate over a cup of coffee.

  49. August 18, 2008 at 22:07

    @Ahmad, i’m sure Bush will need a serious psychiatric test. McCain and Obama too will need to be tested.

  50. 51 Venessa
    August 18, 2008 at 22:09

    Mohammed ~ there should be no discrimination against who gets the psych eval. Everyone in the running should be evaluated plain & simple!

  51. 52 kpelly hezekiah
    August 18, 2008 at 22:12

    Yesterday, after a long silence(2 weeks) as I looked on to see if anybody will take up my comments about the crazy drive of a few selfish individuals calling themselves Multi-lateral companies who in their evil greed for money were pushing the world(humanity) towards another upheaval beyond the scale of 2nd world war, I said more trouble was eminent if we(journalists) don’t start sounding the alarm bells. Today musharaf has resigned. The taliban I hear, have already pledged to lay down their arms struggle with the pakistani government. Now, guys, listen to me. The truth is that the taliban wants to lay hands on the knowledge of nuclear weapons(how to manufacture them). They know they can easily get this information from any new administration apart from musharaf. Once they get this information their alliance will be broken and Israel will be attacked with the 1st nukes they would assemble. Please bbc play back the submission of a contributer during the 2nd half of today’s WHY and think through what he said about Israel. Let everybody remember that pakistan’s nuke were supplied by Russia(USSR) and India’s own was supplied by the US. US supplied georgia with the amunitions to start the troubles in their nation this year but Russia nonetheless has invaded that country. Guys the nukes are the target here and musharaf is tired of holding on to them in the face of the extreme provocation from the very people(US ) that he is trying to protect. God save the world.

  52. 53 viola
    August 18, 2008 at 22:15

    Harry S. Truman, among others, demonstrated the importance of the vice-president’s function, which is to become president in the event of the president’s death. It’s one of those positions that isn’t important until it becomes important.


  53. 54 Jens
    August 18, 2008 at 22:17

    it’s called kobe beef, and yes it is darn good.

  54. 55 nelsoni
    August 18, 2008 at 22:19

    @ Ahmad. Thanks

  55. 56 kpelly hezekiah
    August 18, 2008 at 22:20

    The sale of the knowledge of nukes is what must be protected. bush was forced to offer the sale this year but God being so good, level headed people is the US abrogated the contract. Can anybody guarantee now that pakistan’s politicians can keep this knowledge safe? They don’t have the strength. Their financiers will dictate the pace and who are those financiers? They are simply people who think only about money.

  56. 57 Julie P
    August 18, 2008 at 22:22


    Fallacies are faulty logic, the questions that you posed are called “begging the question”. Begging the question means it is a circular argument. Also begging the question can mean that the person posing question assumes that you come from the same position as they do, so that is no right answer it. If the person decides to answer the question, the person has already lost the argument. That is how fallacies work. I will never answer fallacies.

    I would like to address your selective reading. The character also had strong opinions of her own, and was a recovering alcoholic who became a contributing member of society. She turned her life around and was a success.

    Finally, I also stated other means for being a successful parent that you chose not to read. By the way, I have had male friends who are single parents. I find it interesting that they are never taken to task for being single parents. It is always just the woman. In this day and age it really goes to show that sexism is alive, well and doing fine.

    Sorry, Dan’s not been written well of, except those who are socially conservative.

  57. 58 nelsoni
    August 18, 2008 at 22:22

    @ Venessa. I totally agree with you. No one should be exempted. We can’t have mentally unstable people being commanders in chief of large armies, and nukes. That’s a recipe for disaster. Look around you, I am sure you see for familiar signs …

  58. 59 viola
    August 18, 2008 at 22:23

    Is Kashmir proof that separating populations by religion or ethnicity doesn’t work?

    India was partitioned by the Brits into two countries with huge displacements of population resulting. Now, the same old conflict is taking place between the Muslims and Hindus in Kashmir.

    We all know the result of partitioning of the Palestine Mandate into Palestine and Israel.

    Isn’t it time to find some other solution to problems caused by differences within populations?


  59. 60 nelsoni
    August 18, 2008 at 22:26

    I think the World would be a far better place with sane and rational thinking leaders at the Helm.

  60. 61 viola
    August 18, 2008 at 22:29

    Still think there is no world-wide Islamic expansion by war going on? Read http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/08/13/africa/AF-Mauritania-Coup.php.

    Al-Quaida-linked group takes sides in recent coup.


  61. 62 Ahmad Hammad
    August 18, 2008 at 22:35

    @ Venessa and Nelson:
    You guys are very right. One person is Abnormal out of every three, they say.

    And the psychologists suggest that EVERYONE should put oneslef to the psychoanalytical tests at a regular basis during life.

    I attended a lecture on Abnormality a few years ago. The psychotherapist was requesting the attending individuals to undergo psytherapy every year, for it would help them know their weaknesses and strengths better than without undergoing it. And without doing so, one may fall into psyshic complexes that in the long run damage the personlities…

    We should think then that if psychotherapy according to an expert is very important for a commoner, how crucial would it be for a person sitting in a very sensitive office…

  62. 63 steve
    August 18, 2008 at 22:39

    @ Ahmad

    I would support that strongly, but the problem is that people have to be honest for a shrink to determine there is a problem, unless they are schizo. Many people with personality disorders don’t think anything is wrong with them.

  63. August 18, 2008 at 22:40

    @venessa, if testing all the leaders will give us some sane one for a better world, then I have no problem with that.

  64. 65 nelsoni
    August 18, 2008 at 22:46

    @ Ahamad. Such tests are very crucial for people holding sensitive offices, otherwise they could start chasing enemies real or imagined with disastrous consequences. Think about Idi Amin of Uganda. If you don’t know him, google him. That’s a clear case of a loonie being in power.

  65. 66 Dan
    August 18, 2008 at 22:52

    @ Julie P
    I am astonished that a woman of such obvious education hold a TV character so important ascribing characteristics to that character that make you draw improper conclusions.
    American Heritage Dictionary states that a fallacy is a false notion. A statement or an argument based on a false or invalid inference.
    Where did you get faulty logic?
    I am beginning to believe you are a professor or locked into Wikipedia which you refused as your cite.
    “Begging the question” is the EXIT to a circular discussion. We ae not there yet, we just disagree.
    Thus you draw improper conclusions and then arrogantly say you will not answer what you think is a fallacy.
    Murphy Brown was never a success. Murphy Brown was a TV creation and never existed in reality thus she could never “turn her life around”. It is the creative writing of the script writer. C’mon now, you must know that.
    I am truly astonished that you cannot see the difference between a male single parent and a woman single parent. It may come as a shock but men do not give birth. If a man is a single parent then he was given the baby because of an event caused by the mother.
    Now before you go ballistic I am talking about women who choose motherhood without having or wanting a man present. Women who end up as single parents due to their spouse dying or deserting are not persecuted as you believe.
    I strongly believe and there is sufficient evidence to show that a child needs a male & female parent.
    Lastly as I said only talking heads & pseudo intellectuals have written on Dan Quayle. History has yet to make its judgement just as Al Gore’s “the sky is falling” rantings have yet to be judged.

  66. 67 Jens
    August 18, 2008 at 22:54


    were is the stats to show 1/3 are nuts? i mean does normal become abnormal.

    you simply cannot lump all conditions of the mind into one big pot and say 1/3 of the populations is nuts.

  67. August 18, 2008 at 22:54

    I don’t know. A friend sent me this. I mean what is this world comming to. If it ain’t terrorist trying to blow us up it this….


    Sometime I wonder why we bother to try.

  68. 69 Ahmad Hammad
    August 18, 2008 at 22:56

    Shouldn’t we discuss this very topic tomorrow in WHYS?

  69. 70 Bryan
    August 18, 2008 at 22:59

    Nelsoni, I don’t know if you noticed this comment of mine from Blank Page 20


    which, though I mixed James Miller up with Tom Hurndall, was in response to this comment of yours:


    Any response?

  70. 71 nelsoni
    August 18, 2008 at 23:01

    @ Ahmad. yes we can It all depends on how much we talk about it, then if it survives the acid test at the WHYS morning meeting, it could make the show.

  71. 72 nelsoni
    August 18, 2008 at 23:04

    @ Ahmad some thing like should you know the psychiatric conditions of your leaders and how does it affect the way the country is run ?

  72. 73 Amy
    August 18, 2008 at 23:10


    I have had to count to 10 before responding to your bias against single mothers. I take it that you tend to fall onto the “conservative” (I hate labels!!) side of the fence. That’s great. However, that side of the fence likes to rake single mothers over the coals. Many are not single mothers by choice – they were abandoned by the men. If they chose to terminate the pregnancy, they are wrong yet if they have the baby while alone, they are wrong. How many women out there were told by the “fathers” to get rid of the baby or he’d leave (I have one of those in my family)? By making the choice (note that word – choice) to have the child, those women become incredibly strong. For you to say they don’t is just plain disrespectful to women. I’m not going to even touch the topic of Mr. Qualye – just look for the picture of him in Time Magazine holding the rocket launcher backwards gave me a good indication of his competence.

  73. 74 nelsoni
    August 18, 2008 at 23:12

    @ Bryan. Yes I did. And my response is this. The issue Journalists targeted or mistakenly shot at in Georgia resulting in the death of some of them was extensively discussed on a TP last week. I think the TP before the WHYS show on Rape ~ if you can locate the TP and go through it better.

  74. 75 Julie P
    August 18, 2008 at 23:22


    I took a class on fallacies and I understand them quite well. I appreciate your attempt to once again patronize me. I will not answer fallacies, which you presented, they cannot be won. Furthermore, I spoke to the “character portrayed”, which yet again you chose to ignore. I just love people who engage in selective reading, which when you read my comments, that is what is happening. I do not hold “Murphy Brown” so important, however, the point you are making of me is exactly what Dan Quayle did and is exactly what makes him a complete idiot. He held the character up as what not to do. She was a fictional character, which I initially pointed out. Oh, wait, I get it, because it’s coming from a woman, then bash away, but when it comes from a man like Quayle then it’s okay. Double standards are so wonderful.

    I am astonished that you cannot recognize that women and men are held to different standards. Women get trashed for being single parents, whereas men do not. Period. It is apparent that adoption has entered the vocabulary. When a single woman adopts it is the fall of western civilization. I’ve experienced it with my own eyes, yet when a man adopts the response is the opposite. What a wonderful human being he is. “an event caused by the woman”. Sorry, but the two men I know did not come by their children that because of “an event caused by the woman”.

    Sorry, women are treated very badly about being single parent no matter how it comes about. Hate to tell you this, but I’ve been a woman all of my life and I see it all of the time.

    Given that two parent households can be very dysfunctional with spousal abuse, alcoholism, or other problems, it is not always the best place to raise a child.

    I’ll be sure to pass along my university books on our recent presidents and vice presidents. Dan has not been written about well. Sorry, he just was not the sharpest knife in the drawer, and it’s not pseudo intellectuals and talking heads.

  75. 76 Amy
    August 18, 2008 at 23:23


    You say that “Women who end up as single parents due to their spouse dying or deserting are not persecuted as you believe.” I have to disagree with that. If it is due to a death, yes, you are correct. However, if it is due to desertion, they are gone after. They are the ones who frequently are criticized for not being around to raise their children, for putting their kids in day care, for going on welfare. As for women choosing to have a child when they know there will be no father around, what about a woman who has lots of love to give but cannot find “Mr. Right?” Should those women be denied the opportunity to have a child? If the answer is yes they should be denied, then why? Should they be allowed to adopt or is that off limits too? I bet if men could have children, you would see quite a few single fathers out there. Since science isn’t there yet for men to carry a baby, single women get bashed again.

  76. 77 Virginia Davis
    August 18, 2008 at 23:34

    @Cheney: does no one remember his collection of “pro-oil” energy people and a series of meetings which I understand gave Bush “an energy policy” and then Cheney’s refusal to allow any access to list of members of group and its discussions?

    @psychological evaluations of “leaders” – There for a while I suggested to people I talk with that Bush and Cheney, should they wish to remain in office, should be required to travel once a week to a psychiatrist’s office (different ones, of course) for an “hour on the couch” and their records to remain sealed until after their deaths.
    For history, intellectual history.

    Seriously, I do not see any realistic way to evaluate “leaders” Beyond a free and independent 4th Estate (press) and an educated citizenship. Traditions of dictators and oligarchs (present US) seem to be keeping us all down.

    I have just purchased “Getting A Grip” by Frances Moore Lappe (Diet for a Small Planet (www.smallplanetmedia.org). The book is jacketed by “a spiral of powerlessness” and “a spiral of empowerment” – the former is based on ‘human nature is selfish, competitive & materialistic so…..’ and the latter ‘Within human nature for fairness, cooperation, effectiveness and meaning so…..’

    Howard Zinn endorsement! and “democracy” an important concept is the empowerment spiral – I’ll keep y’all informed as I read through.

    This is long…..

    Virginia in Oregon

  77. 78 Bryan
    August 18, 2008 at 23:45

    nelsoni, no I wasn’t talking about that particular point. I was talking about you appointing yourself judge and jury and deciding that Israel was deliberately taking journalists out and then covering up for it and this was somehow a regular occurrence. If you click on the links I gave at 10:59pm, you’ll see your original post and my response.

    Dwight in Cleveland, I saw this post of yours on Blank Page 20:


    Just haven’t got around to formulating a response.

    A even more “better thing to do” was to not prop Saddam Hussein up in the first place. You gloss over it like it is a trivial fact of the matter.

    I wasn’t trying to gloss over it, I just didn’t think of it at the time of writing. But I guess you are right in a sense.

    But some countries are just not ready for democracy. It’s not how they function. The best the people can hope for is a benevolent dictatorship.

    Here’s a talking point:

    Was Israel right to take out Iraq’s nuclear reactor in 1982? Can you imagine a world with Saddam Hussein, that Satanic madman, threatening to use nuclear weapons? (OK it’s purely an academic question now.)

  78. 79 Virginia Davis
    August 18, 2008 at 23:53

    announcement of Obama’s VP: I am one of the email/text message people who will receive that “news” – Will let y’all know when I do.

    Virginia in Oregon

  79. 80 nelsoni
    August 18, 2008 at 23:54

    @ Bryan. I did not appoint myself judge and jury. Based on the suspicious circumstances involving the deaths of the journalists and coupled with the continued exoneration of the troops except for the James Miller case(as you rightly pointed out), it’s not far fetched to say that troops that will kill any journalist in the future would be exonerated. It is very rare that troops any where in the world who accidentally kill/murder Journalists will be brought to book. One way or the other they will be let off the hook.

  80. August 19, 2008 at 00:16

    @ Dan, you are correct in most of what you say, where you are not will come to light. One place is to say that Al Gore’s “the sky is falling rant” has not been judged. He is a Nobel prize winner. The result of 10,000 voting scientist saying he was correct compared to 100 who are paid for by the big energy companies who say, “he might not be.”

  81. August 19, 2008 at 00:17

    @ Julie and Amy,

    First I am certainly not on the “conservative” side of the fence. Then again Neither am I on the “liberal side. I often find myself with the fence post stuck right up my…….. Anyway. First, we are all the result of our choices and our circumstances. The problem is that many women, like all other varieties of humans, don’t realize what all their options are. So they make bad choices.

    Getting pregnant is a choice. If unprotected sex lead to death as often as it lead to pregnancy, you could believe that more women would be careful. (Then again in Africa, that is about the case and they still do it.) They would adjust their “choices”. Everything that you are right this minute is the result of situations and choices. Situations are things that you can not do anything about. Choices are the things you can do something about. Making good ones lead to better situation with more available desirable choices. You learn to make good choices from having good role models as you grow.

    A girl who meets a guy in a bar and get pregnant, she made a bad choice. Not all guys are that way, but the one she met, was. The guy? Well as far as he and all his buddies are concerned he made a good choice. (Again if his thing fell off every time he had unprotected sex he would be more careful, but it doesn’t.) Yes a woman that makes bad choices and ends up on welfare is looked down upon. She has to be. If she wasn’t more women would do it.

    There is a sector of this country emerging where getting pregnant when you can’t possibly financially afford to, is starting to be expected. Being a single mother in our current cultural structure in the US is not conducive to raising a child who makes good choices. It is to the benefit of the whole society to dissuade single parent homes. A single parent means a single income which means that child is actually being raised by everybody else but that “single parent.”

    As for not being able to “get what you want” because you “can’t find Mr. Right”, that is what we call a “Too bad”. I wanted to be a Rock Star or a Pirate. The “situation” didn’t pan out. Some women want to be mothers, but they can’t find an accommodating situation. “Too bad”. Your parents lied to you when they told you, “ you could be anything you wanted.” They also lied about the Easter bunny and the tooth fairy too.

    The system requires that we try to reduce people making choices that leads them to sitting at home collecting a welfare check. It is also bad for the system to acquire children raised in a parentless environment where they are forced to raise themselves. Many of these children grow up selfish and self-absorbed men who get women pregnant and leave them.

  82. 83 Shirley
    August 19, 2008 at 00:30

    US VP Richard Cheney
    Katharina, you’ve been wondering about Dick Cheney’s relative unpopularity. I know that he has been mentioned in some of PBS Frontline’s coverage. Check out these links:
    The Dark Side
    Cheney’s Law

  83. August 19, 2008 at 00:31


    What with Google having photos of ‘everywhere’ on Earth, I figure that it won’t be long for the super spies to have live photos of ‘everywhere outside.’

  84. 85 Dan
    August 19, 2008 at 00:32

    You read me wrong I am stating that being a single Mother does not necessarily make a woman strong and that fictional TV characters are the invention of a writer’s grey matter and are not real.

  85. 86 Dan
    August 19, 2008 at 00:34

    @ Dwight from Cleveland
    I remind you that hey gave a terrorist, Yassir Arafat, a Nobel Prize. Other than for the physical sciences, the prize is WORTHLESS.

  86. 87 Julie P
    August 19, 2008 at 00:36


    I appreciate yet again your patronizing of women. Bravo!

    Okay, men make bad choices too. They choose to have unprotected with women they do not know and then have the nerve to blame the women for having unprotected sex. They too can get STDs and, can be made to pay child support, but of course that makes the women is evil if she does that. He assumed the risk, but will not accept the responsibility , In all cases the man could have used a condom, yet chose not to, even though he does not want to be a parent or catch an STD, but the woman will get blamed for his bad choice. There were two people there, but let’s bash the woman. AGAIN.

    Not all single parents are welfare, that is a myth and a stereotype that’s been going around for eons. There are working women who are single with children, but I’m sure this is a new revelation for you. If it’s not, then I am sure some other stereotype will get rotted out bashing women for supporting herself and the child. There are enough of those going around.

    Interesting that you bring up parents “lying to women about being whatever they want to be”, what about men? Were men not lied to about being whatever they wanted to be? They adopt and raise children on their own, yet you are not bashing them for that choice. My how sexist.

    As for women not finding “Mr. Right” there are men who do not find “Miss Right” either, but men are not trashed for that. It’s okay for men to remain single, but not women. Oh, no! What other other stereotype are you going to drag out about women when it comes to that? I can tell you one very real reason why some women remain single, it’s the same as men. We want to remain single because we can and it’s perfectly fine.

  87. 88 Shirley
    August 19, 2008 at 00:47

    Single Mothers
    If it is so morally reprehensible to be a single mother, then why the fuss over abortion being legal?

  88. 89 Dan
    August 19, 2008 at 00:49

    @Julie P
    Because you cannot answer the challenge I presented you deem it a fallacy. How wonderfully arrogant.
    Dan Qayle commented on what Murphy Brown as a fictional character reprsented and proffered as normal.
    He asked the qestion if this is good for society but your origina statement was that Quayle had an argument with a fictional character. That is false.
    Of course men and women are held to different standards but that is non sequitur as you held that Murphy Brown was a strong woman because she was a single mother and an ex-alcoholic. Again nonsense.
    Furthermre you take an anecdotal incident of someone you know and make it a statistical certainty. Again, how wonderfully arrogant.
    Do not get me wrong. I am not out to demean you just to say that I think you are looking in the wrong places to justify what is important to you and it is making you angry. Anger detracts from a woman strength.
    Lastly please detail your qualifications to determine the sharpness of Dan Quayle’s intellect.
    As for me, I will wait for the judgement of history as I do not know and have never met the man but he is due the respect of having been our Vice President.

  89. 90 Dan
    August 19, 2008 at 00:51

    Jlie P
    You are getting too worked up and are confusing Dwight in CLeveland and me.
    Chill out….we can all disagree but remain friends….yes???

  90. 91 Venessa
    August 19, 2008 at 00:53

    Dwight ~

    I think your assertion is very well put. I too am bothered by the encouragement of people to have children they can’t afford let alone raise properly. Life is not fair and it does come down to choices. Unfortunately this country has a system that perpetuates the cycle of poor choices people make.

    Too bad “thingy’s” didn’t fall off and people died more often from being stupid. And I do mean stupid because it’s not as if there isn’t a ton of information thrown in all of our faces daily about the dangers, downfalls, and struggles one will face when making bad decisions!

    No one get me wrong here ~ I have no issue with single parents, abortion, sex, etc. I’m just commenting on poor choices made by what seems to be a large number of the population and people that make good decisions are the ones who get to pay for it.

  91. 92 steve
    August 19, 2008 at 00:59

    @ Julie P

    “It’s okay for men to remain single, but not women. Oh, no! What other other stereotype are you going to drag out about women when it comes to that? I can tell you one very real reason why some women remain single, it’s the same as men. We want to remain single because we can and it’s perfectly fine.”

    If there’s pressure on women to attach, it’s from other women. I’ve noticed that women want the approval of other women, and are very competitive with each other. They want a bigger house than their friends, they want a wealthier, taller husband than their friends, etc… Ever look at women’s magazines at the check out aisle? They are totally dedicated to superficial things, landing the “perfect guy” (which doesn’t exist). I don’t know a guy on earth who thinks that a woman could possibly be perfect. Even if they appear perfect, normally after 2 months being with them, you find out, and quickly, how imperfect they are.

  92. 93 Shirley
    August 19, 2008 at 00:59

    Dwight, when an unmarried man and an unmarried woman have intercourse, do you think that men should be made to pay the consequence when pregnancy results? Normally, the woman is the one who becomes financially and personally responsible for raising the child when two people have unprotected sex. This is because of the biological necessity of the physical union of mother and unborn child. Also, what is your opinion of the divergence in attitude towards men who are sexually active outside marriage and towards women who are sexually active outside of marriage? What steps would you like to see taken towards your ideal positions?

  93. August 19, 2008 at 01:11


    First, the event took place in June of 1981. The Russians and the French who supplied the technology and facility both claim that it was not capable of producing a weapon. Two weeks later Israel announced its own nuclear capabilities and intention to develop a nuclear weapon. By, “announced” I mean that it was forced into admitting it. At the same time the US was busy supplying Saddam with biological, and most notable, chemical weapons. He was to use these against his enemies. This not only included the Iranians, but the Kurdish rebels in the north. The same one turkey keeps zipping across the line into Iraq and bombing these days. (They have a lot of oil.)

    It is no coincidence that “the monster” is always the guy that your leaders oppose. The Germans felt the same way about the US, Brits, and Russkies. To be completely “academic” you must put yourself in Saddam’s shoes. Here he is doing the dirty work of the US. (Unlike the religious sectarian nut jobs that surround him, Saddam is driven by capitalism.) He had paid dearly for nuclear energy technology from the Russians. (Note that the Russian border wasn’t that far away from Saddam. Yet they felt comfortable enough with the technology they were giving him.) Yet here comes Israel and strikes them in his country and blows up the stuff he had just bought. The west did nothing. If I were him, I would be a little P.O.ed. At the very least I would start to consider my trust of these westerners.

    So that was the situation in the early 80’s. Now applying other “best” examples to the situation. The one thing an economy needs to enter a “boom” is a reliable and plentiful energy source. Time and again we have seen that the Middle Eastern countries like nuclear for power and to sell their oil. It works out nicely because we in the west like it when they sell their oil instead of burning it. Using China and India as examples, we have seen that as economies grow, so do the power of the people. As that happens they become much more vested in world peace and the well being of the US. If Iraq had been allowed to continue with a stable energy source, there is a very good chance they would have made a great ally and trading partner. That is an “opportunity cost” that we can only speculate irrationally about.

    One thing is known. Pakistan has had nuclear bombs complete and deliverable since the mid 90’s They officially tested it in 1998. This is currently the place where US enemy # 1 is and we haven’t seen any one of them use their capabilities to date.

    There are a lot of “if”s. One thing that I am sure of is that hypocrisy will never lead to world peace or US security. You will never teach your kids not to drink in smoke by yelling at them with a beer and a cigarette in your hand.

  94. 95 Julie P
    August 19, 2008 at 01:11


    “you are looking in the wrong places to justify what is important to you and it is making you angry” “Anger detracts from a woman strength.”

    That is arrogant and patronizing as well.

    In my original statement I did state that Dan Quayle did argue with a fictional character and he did. He argued with the woman who portrayed “Murphy Brown” and the producers of the show after that speech. He looked in the wrong place to attack single parent, not me, but since we were on the topic of a fictional character, then it is perfectly acceptable to point the good qualities of said character. I know it’s okay for Dan Quayle as he is a man, but not for me the woman.

    I do not have to explain myself to anyone about why I choose not like Dan Quayle and his intellect. I live in a free country where I free to arrive at my conclusions about our leaders regardless of who they are.

    All of the question you posed to me are fallacies, I just do not respond to them. It is not because I cannot I simply do not. Anyone who answers to a fallacy automatically looses. Period.

    What is more, I am well beyond tired of seeing women getting bashed in these on a routine basis. Women are coming here and bashing men, but men are. Thank you so much for telling us that you really do not like us. We appreciate it.

  95. August 19, 2008 at 01:12

    sorry these are long, butthe whole post is related and all points are crucial.

  96. 97 Julie P
    August 19, 2008 at 01:21


    I’ve read Maxam, they give the same tripe story to men as they do to women. I died laughing when I read one of those magazines that one of the men brought into work. It is the male version of Cosmo. Please do not forget the images of women that are portrayed in porn mags. It leads men to believe that women can look like that and if they don’t, then it’s okay to say nasty things about women who do not measure up. I cannot tell you how many men want to date and marry the stripper type. It’s unbelievable.

    Sorry, but women are not as competitive with each other as you think they are. For those of who are adults we don’t do that. However, men can be just as competitive as about with each other over successful careers, money, investing, cars, houses, “the perfect mate”. I’ve worked in a male dominated environment for 14 years. I have seen and heard it all coming out of men. You guys gossip just like women do too.

  97. 98 steve
    August 19, 2008 at 01:26

    @ Julie P

    I think everyone realizes Maxim is a joke and it’s only bought to look at pictures of chicks in bikinis. I’ve never heard of any guy wanting the perfect mate, just a woman that is in shape, and doesn’t nag, and is down to earth, and not a golddigger. i’ve never heard guys gossip before, especially about celebrities. The worst I ever have witnessed was at a bar with a then girlfriend and when she got up to use the restroom, some guy who had been talking to us said “wow, you’re a lucky guy” based upon her physical appearance.

  98. 99 Amy
    August 19, 2008 at 01:33

    Steve, Dwight and Dan,

    You are partially correct when you state that women put pressure on other women. But if “perfection” isn’t being sought why are men (mostly single ones, but not always) out on the prowl? I have seen too many times that a guy is with a girl until the next best thing comes along. There are women like that too, I admit, but it happens more with guys. But society tends to over look that.

    But Dwight, you talk about women making poor choices but what about men? Don’t they have a responsibility too? “If unprotected sex lead to death as often as it lead to pregnancy, you could believe that more women would be careful. (Then again in Africa, that is about the case and they still do it.)” One would think that your statement would apply to both sexes, but yet you just single out women and it seems (and I hope not since you do seem like a nice person) that you are blaming the AIDS crisis in Africa on women. There are some women out there that are getting pregnant just to get pregnant and the “welfare” class is growing. Maybe if sex education were taught in school and sex wasn’t such a taboo subject things might improve. Maybe then young boys might learn that a condom is not a bad thing and can protect them.

    Dwight, my parents didn’t lie to me when they told me that I could be anything I wanted to be. If they did, then your parents lied to you too. Telling your child to dream isn’t lying to them. One dream can lead to or morph into another one. Just because you didn’t become a rock star doesn’t mean you can’t still play in a band or pass on your love of music (I assume you love music) to others.

    It looks to be shaping up to be another battle of the sexes on this topic and I really don’t see any of us agreeing anytime soon. Just for the record, I do respect all of your views even if I disagree with them. Maybe if the WHYS congress comes to pass we can all discuss this face to face.

    Sorry for the long post.

  99. 100 Julie P
    August 19, 2008 at 01:38

    Well, Steve, I’ve seen and experienced differently. Men act the same as women and, yes, they gossip about celebs too. I don’t keep up with the celebs, frankly, they are there to entertain me. As an example, the men had a some rag sheet out one day and tried to get me in a conversation about one woman. I had no idea who she was. It was Victoria Becham. On another occasion the men were trashing Lionel Richies daughter whatever her name is. I didn’t even know who she was. Men do it too.

    I have listened to men describe their friends to me who I have never met, I get: he has this title, earns this much. gives description of the house he owns, what type of degree he has, where it is from, what kind of car he drives, and explains his portfolio to me. Then I hear the same man describe me: education, career, appearance, and some other pedigree that fits the “trophy wife/girlfriend.”

    You guys sure have a strange way of looking for what you claim men are looking for. It seems you guys are setting yourselves up for a lot of what you claim you don’t want.

  100. 101 steve
    August 19, 2008 at 01:43

    @ Amy

    “You are partially correct when you state that women put pressure on other women. But if “perfection” isn’t being sought why are men (mostly single ones, but not always) out on the prowl? I have seen too many times that a guy is with a girl until the next best thing comes along. There are women like that too, I admit, but it happens more with guys. But society tends to over look that.”

    It’s very simple for a guy to successfully date, he has to date multiple women, so he doesn’t put all his eggs in one basket. If he does, he becomes desperate, and if he loses out, he gets upset. Women also desire men that other women desire, hence when you’re involved, you’ll find more women being interested in you than when you’re single.

  101. 102 Dan
    August 19, 2008 at 01:53

    @ Julie P
    Men and women are different that is simple fact. Men want to date & marry the stripper type as men are visual and that is what stimulates us.
    It takes age & maturity for a man to grow beyond that but we still lust for the stripper type.

    @ Amy
    You raise so many interesting topics we can spend weeks discussing and despite the bible thumpers it isn’t black & white. When kids hormones are raging it’s “damn the condoms full speed ahead” not giving any thought to consequences.

  102. 103 Julie P
    August 19, 2008 at 02:01


    I’m talking about men who are in their 30’s, and 40’s. Evidently there are those who do not grow up. And the scenario I just described to Steve about a male friend describing his male friend and then me is in his 50’s. Yes, men are visual, but they can incredibly shallow about it. Once you’re a female and have been accepted as “one of the guys” they will talk with you about anything. Really I’ve worked in a male dominated environment for 14 years I’ve been in the locker room. I’m speaking metaphorically.

  103. 104 Shirley
    August 19, 2008 at 02:04

    HTML: Working with Frames?
    I’ve got some good help from web pages that give a basic introduction to using frames in HTML. I need help, though, with something. Is it possible to click a link in one of the frames on a page and have it take over more than one of the frames?

  104. 105 steve
    August 19, 2008 at 02:10

    @ Julie P

    Women are just as shallow if not more shallow. I’ve never heard of a guy rejecting a girl because she wore a brown belt with black shoes. Although I know the “rules” women are a lot more picky, given until a certain age, they tend to have a lot more options than the average guy does. Any and every reason could be used against them. The key is to not care. To realize that you have options, and any particular rejection isn’t the end of the world. I was in a bar 3 or so years, ago, there were three women, ranging in age from 25-40, and they were talking to the bartender about the “perfect man” (again, there’s no such thing) and they determined that he was at least 6’3, made over $400,000 a year, and had an english accent. This is Arlington, VA. How many men do you think are there that satisfies those requirements? I later joined in, and was totally disgusted. The youngest one kept on talking to me, but referring to herself to her friends as a “princess” so when she asked if I was single I lied and said I was very happy with a girlfriend. I wouldn’t want to deal with anyone so deluded they consider themselves a princess. She was incredibly good looking, but not worth it to me.

  105. 106 Amy
    August 19, 2008 at 02:11


    Something we can agree on. YEAH!!! It isn’t black and white. Sex is a very gray area.

  106. 107 Dan
    August 19, 2008 at 02:18

    @ Amy
    Just because we all have strong opinions does not mean we cannot find some common ground. This is why I love WHYS so very much.

  107. 108 Amy
    August 19, 2008 at 02:21


    “It’s very simple for a guy to successfully date, he has to date multiple women, so he doesn’t put all his eggs in one basket. If he does, he becomes desperate, and if he loses out, he gets upset. Women also desire men that other women desire, hence when you’re involved, you’ll find more women being interested in you than when you’re single.”

    You just proved my point that society will over look a man dating multiple women but if a woman does it, she is a, starts with “s” and rhymes with mutt. You also seem to be validate that a man wants women to be interested in him when he is involved, therefore looking for the next best thing.

  108. 109 Amy
    August 19, 2008 at 02:22

    On another subject, did you all know that oil doesn’t come from fossils? Ha Ha


  109. 110 steve
    August 19, 2008 at 02:24

    @ Julie

    “You just proved my point that society will over look a man dating multiple women but if a woman does it, she is a, starts with “s” and rhymes with mutt. You also seem to be validate that a man wants women to be interested in him when he is involved, therefore looking for the next best thing.”

    That’s because you think that. Women do that all the time. Every time I begin dating a woman she’s dating many other guys. You have to be “the best” for her to get anywhere. Women also tend to be so insecure, and petrified of being single, that they find replacements for their boyfriends while they still have one, so that, well, makes them cheat. Very few women can be single for more than a few minutes at a time. I’ve had this done to me, and I’ve been the other guy being tried to get lined up as a replacement.

  110. 111 Julie P
    August 19, 2008 at 02:25


    There was a time when I swore up and down that men wear clothes just to keep from getting arrested, expect the gay ones. (I’m not even going there, I’m a recovering hairdresser.) Then one day I talked with my brother at length about clothes. Surprisingly he has many of the same complaints about inconsistent sizing as women do and just as steamed. I still think he doesn’t care as much about fashion as women do, but he sure does have a strong opinion about clothes.

    Sure when I see someone wearing a combination of something I think doesn’t go together, or match, I raise my eyebrow and then move on. It really depends on the circles you’re traveling. Yeah, we have more options until you wake up one day, for me it was mid-twenties, when the thought crossed my mind that “the industry” wants to dress us like dollies and to change the dollies fashions, so they can fleece us for our money.

    Look there are all kinds of people out there and not one of them is perfect. I’ve listened to the stripper scenario more than once and I’ve heard some women talk about men. In either case, bars seem to bring out the worst in both sexes.

  111. 112 Julie P
    August 19, 2008 at 02:27


    One more thing. I don’t know where you are meeting these women, but PLEASE change playgrounds. We’re just not like that when it comes to being and having boyfriends.

  112. 113 Venessa
    August 19, 2008 at 02:34

    Steve ~

    I think you have pointed out some flaws that a lot of women have but it’s not all of them. Julie has made some fine points regarding men being guilty of the same behavior. I too have worked in mostly male dominated industries and they are like a bunch of little girls in a room gossiping. They’ve even tried to perpetuate fighting between the females in the office. Sad.

    I do agree with Julie ~ you need to change playgrounds. Sounds like you meet more psychos than quality women. I don’t know if it’s where you live but you don’t seem to have very many positive things to say about women you meet.

  113. 114 nelsoni
    August 19, 2008 at 02:44

    @ Steve/Venessa/Amy. Please could you guys moderate for a few hours? its almost 3 am here. I need to catch a few hours of sleep. I will be back soon. Thanks.

  114. 115 steve
    August 19, 2008 at 02:45

    @ Vanessa and Julie

    I have a feeling psychos are a lot more common than normal.. if there is a normal. I relate the experiences of myself and my friends. I’ve met women in every possible place you can, the result is usually the same. But that’s life, and hence why I don’t take things too seriously.

  115. 116 Venessa
    August 19, 2008 at 02:50

    nelsoni ~ no problem. I’m around.

  116. 117 Dan
    August 19, 2008 at 02:54

    @ Vanessa
    Women aren’t psychos? Thanks for the laugh.
    I agree with Steve.
    So I guess your next question is if women are psychos why do men chase them? Aside from the obvious answer, Rocky Balboa said it best “we fill gaps in each other”.

  117. 118 Julie P
    August 19, 2008 at 02:55


    I can come with psycho stories of my own about men I have met, dated, and dumped. I can even talk about my girlfriends who’ve had the similar experiences with dating or marriage. I just don’t drag them out. Although I think there are men who are less than desirable, if I concentrated on them, then I would never be able to see a good, decent, kind man when he came along.

  118. 119 Venessa
    August 19, 2008 at 02:58

    Dan ~

    There are plenty of psychos on both sides of the fence! I agree with Steve that it’s hard to meet good people. Many of the points he illustrates regarding his experiences with women are nearly the same as what my male friends have described.

  119. 120 Amy
    August 19, 2008 at 02:59


    I hate to say this, but do you think it is you and not all the psychos? I am not trying to be insulting and I don’t think you are psycho (although being an attorney in the D.C. area makes me wonder 🙂 ), really, I don’t.

    Because some women are looking for a replacement, that is why a man cheats? Again, it seems to be you are blaming the woman when the man makes the choice to stray. What about the women who are being cheated on? How many times does “Honey, it didn’t mean anything” come out of a man’s mouth? More times with men than with women.

  120. 121 Venessa
    August 19, 2008 at 03:04

    “I think there are men who are less than desirable, if I concentrated on them, then I would never be able to see a good, decent, kind man when he came along.”

    Well said Julie! I’ve got plenty of stories of my own; fortunately I was always quick to run the other way if things were a little off. Focusing on negative traits that someone might not have automatically sets you up for finding many flaws; which by the way we all have.

  121. 122 Dan
    August 19, 2008 at 03:06

    @ Vanessa,
    It is damn hard to meet good women. I have many women friends but they do not hold a marriage interest for me. I am sure the same is true of women.

    @ Amy
    There is no good answer why a man strays. Ssome say that it is a mans nature to have sex with as many females as possible, others say we get bored and need new stimulus. At the same time we want our women at home as the anchor. Is that in our genetic makeup? How can we ever answer that question.

  122. August 19, 2008 at 03:06

    Amy and hopefully Shirley.

    It is great that you think that way, and I wish the rest of the world did. However, “you can wish in one hand…” Life doesn’t work that way. It is not how we are marketed to as a culture. Turn to “MTV”, “FOX”, or pornography in general. It is not easy to make the right choice, or we wouldn’t have the problems we do. Most humans take the “path of least resistance”. In system design we don’t deal with what “would be nice if it worked that way.” We deal with the reality. It is an undue burden that nature has put on the female to consider her choice more thoroughly then men when it comes to sex. This isn’t just true because of pregnancy, but also because of disease too. Whatever it is that you think created us, they really gave you women a raw deal. (You bleed, suffer from chemical imbalances, and are propped up as objects by most societies. On top of that you have to have the baby and put you body through that?) But that is the breaks. All the complaining won’t change it.

    The irony is that in this society, women hold all the cards and still don’t play them right. If women would gain control and make policy, or agree, or whatever that men would be singled out and chastised for doing things that men do. Men should be fined for having unwed unprotected sex. If it leads to pregnancy they should have to go to jail. That would make men think about it a little harder. Something tangible, not something wishful.

    I am told I am a nice guy. I treat women with up most respect. My wife could walk in on me stripped naked and wrestling in pudding with strippers, and my wife would accept my explanation because I have never given her any reason not to. If calling a spade a spade makes me, “not nice” in your eyes, I am disheartened, but I will have to accept it. For the same reason many see me as not “Patriotic”, “American”, “open minded”, and/ or “suave”. If so, sorry that you feel that way.

  123. 124 Venessa
    August 19, 2008 at 03:07

    Amy ~

    I think he was saying that’s why women cheat. You do bring up a good point though….being an attorney in the D.C. area…. 😉

  124. 125 Julie P
    August 19, 2008 at 03:08


    One of life’s little lessons. It wasn’t the easiest one to learn.

  125. 126 Bob in Queensland
    August 19, 2008 at 03:17

    Good morning/afternoon/evening all!

    @ Dan (1234AM)

    Actually they gave nobel peace prizes to TWO terrorists. Menachem Begin got one too as I recall. Look up the “King David Hotel bombing” amongst other things.

    (Funny how being on the winning side changes how history portrays you.)

  126. 127 Amy
    August 19, 2008 at 03:19


    I am sure that you are a wonderful person and I know that you are open minded, otherwise you wouldn’t be here posting on the WHYS blog. You are right, women did get the short end of the stick when it comes to procreation but trust me, women are not the only ones who suffer from “chemical imbalances” so please do not put that on females alone.

    I hope your wife would question you if you were wrestling naked in pudding with strippers. I know that even though my husband has never given me reason to doubt him, I would question his choice to engage in that act. You do seem to put a lot of emphasis on personal choices and that would be on that I most definitely would question and have a problem with. Having said that, if that happens, please share the photos 🙂

  127. 128 Venessa
    August 19, 2008 at 03:20

    Julie ~ you’ll get no argument from me!

  128. 129 Julie P
    August 19, 2008 at 03:20


    Good morning! How goes it on the other side of the planet?

  129. 130 Amy
    August 19, 2008 at 03:21

    Hi Bob,

    Welcome to the estrogen – testosterone battle field! How is life down under today?

  130. 131 Dan
    August 19, 2008 at 03:22

    Bob in Queensland
    Yes you are correct but Menachem Begin not only ended up as PM of a nation his “terrorist” attack was against the British military not innocent civilians.
    Additionally Begin did not hold his people hostage in refugee camps for 50 years preaching hate while he stole their international aid money.
    Remember…it is the victor that writes history.

  131. 132 Venessa
    August 19, 2008 at 03:22

    G’day Bob!

  132. 133 Bob in Queensland
    August 19, 2008 at 04:03

    Hi Amy, Julie P, Venessa

    Life is pretty good down here today–clear blue skies and pleasantly warm. A typical winter day in fact!

    I’ll stay out of the “Murphy Brown” debate (it didn’t help the VP much!) but make the general comment that it’s rarely, if ever, a good move for a politician to start making speeches about “family values”. It almost always backfires–the too much possibility for some form of scandal, marriage breakdown or affair in politics and, as soon as that happens, the press have a field day!

  133. 134 Bob in Queensland
    August 19, 2008 at 04:10

    Of Presidents, Vice Presidents and Intelligence…

    I’m sure I once saw a quote from somebody who said that very few VPs complete their term without improving their golf handicap but, despite some searching, I haven’t managed to find it. However, while the VP job in itself might not be very important, the American penchant for “ballistic impeachment” means the chance of them assuming presidential office is frighteningly high.

    Regarding intelligence levels and GW Bush, I see two possibilities. Maybe he is the rambling, semi-literate bumpkin he appears to be when he says things like “nook-you-laar”….or maybe he’s merely posing as a “man of the people” to cover up his tight connections with big business, in particular the petrochemical industry.

    Either option is worrying.

  134. 135 Julie P
    August 19, 2008 at 04:26


    Good that you’re having pleasant weather. Clever witticisms.

  135. 136 Bob in Queensland
    August 19, 2008 at 04:31

    @ Dan

    I’ve seen the rationalisation before that Begin’s terrorism was acceptable because it was directed against a military target rather than a civilian one.

    So…I expect we’ll soon see a post from you confirming you feel that US soldiers are a valid target for suicide bombers in Iraq, with only attacks on civilians being condemned?

  136. 137 Amy
    August 19, 2008 at 04:39

    Goodnight everyone. Hubby just got home from tae-kwon-do so I want to spend a little time with him. Bob, glad you are having nice weather. It finally cooled off here in Portland after unusually hot temperatures (100+ F) for that past few days. I look forward to catching up later.

  137. August 19, 2008 at 05:00

    I do put a lot of merit on personal choice. When it comes to children, I believe demonstrating good personal choices is more important then teaching them to go in the potty. (I am currently struggling with both of them myself. I mean teaching my daughter. Not me. I am a lost cause.) The question is how do we get more people to make good personal choices. Then again, our economy is based on people making bad personal choices.

    My co-worker just turned off “the NFL cheerleader playoffs”. That is a testament to the fact that women have a different station in life. There are venders selling this male chauvinist agenda. They are because there are buyers.

    I am off the clock and on my way home. It will be nice to see if we can figure out a valid way to make men in general be more respectful, or to make women only pick the ones that are to “mate” with.

  138. 139 Amy
    August 19, 2008 at 05:14


    I agree with you that, in general, the only way to move forward is to get people, not just men, to be more respectful. Maybe then people will make better personal choices.

    It is however, important to teach children to go to the potty! Do you really want to be changing their diaper when they are 16? Having 2 daughters myself, I’ve been where you are. With both of them, I let them choose their “panties” and then put them on, set the timer for 15 minutes and then made them sit on the toilet. I gradually expanded the length of time and presto – potty trained. I even did this when we would be out. I used my cell phone alarm and learned where all of the restrooms were whenever we were away from the house. Good luck!

  139. 140 Tom
    August 19, 2008 at 05:40

    @ Nobel Peace Prize / Terrorists

    Nelson Mandela was once considered a terrorist and a communist, both politically taboo labels, by the South African apartheid regime. He too won the Nobel Peace Prize along with F. W. de Klerk for shutting down apartheid.

  140. 141 Tom
    August 19, 2008 at 05:45

    About men suffering ‘chemical imbalances’. This is a very common self-inflicted problem a.k.a. alcoholism. It’s particularly prevalent among young and middle-age male during a drawn out party, a backyard barbecue, and after a heavy football loss.

  141. 142 Mohammed Ali
    August 19, 2008 at 09:58

    @Psychiatric Test,

    I think this topic needs serious attention like nelsoni and others have suggested.
    This was a very serious suggestion made by Dr. H. Boima Fahnbulleh, Nationa Security Advisor to the president of Liberia, when he appeared before the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in the earlier part of August.

    Liberia and Africa in general have had leaders whose actions suggest some level of mental unbalance. Examples from Liberia:

    1. On April 14, 1979, a group of Liberians went in the streets of Monrovia to peacefully demonstraste against a propose increase in the price of rice, the country’s major and staple food. President William R. Tolbert, Jr. ordered the police to shoot the lower extremity of anybody who went in the street to take part in the demonstration. On April 12, 1980, he was overthrown and killed along with 13 senior members of his government.

    2. In 1990, when the civil war started in Nimba County, the northern part of Liberia, President Samuel K. Doe went on national radio and TV to warn that if the war did not end immediately, he will eliminate Nimba County and its citizens from the map of Liberia. On September 10, 1990, he brutally murdered by Prince Y. Johnson and his INPFL dominated by people from Nimba.

    3. In 2001, citizens of Liberia attempted a peaceful against summary executions by security forces, President Charles G. Taylor went on national radio to challenge anybody who mother did not born them properly to get in the street. He was going to order his security to shoot and kill. He’s now in the Hague.

  142. 143 Mohammed Ali
    August 19, 2008 at 10:02

    I strongly beleive that if future public office holders are tested to know the degree of their mental balance, we will avoid such embarassing circumstances as I’ve mentioned above.

  143. 144 Virginia Davis
    August 19, 2008 at 10:29

    @Mohanned Ali:

    Thank you for the examples of insanity in (your country?) of Liberia. I did not mean to make light of your suggestion.

    However, from my own point of view “education” rather than “testing” is closer to an answer. See the discussion above the men vs. the women. And one of the conclusion that men need to be more respectful and women need to make better choices. If people exchange and change their opinions, then reality changes.

    Maybe a way to start would be to require that every person who is registering to vote, be required to pass a simple “mental balance” test? That group would include leaders (who after all vote for themselves; I did when I ran for Mayor of Portland, OR in 2000), as well as “followers” – all the rest of the citizens. Who even care enough to register.

    Or to vote. You may not be aware that here in the US we have very poor voter turnout which is one of the reasons Obama is doing well, as he is getting people involved again.

    Steve, after all, is touting potential parents get a license to have children.

    Yours for a better world,

    Virginia in Oregon

  144. 145 Bob in Queensland
    August 19, 2008 at 10:35

    Noticing Karmie’s addition to the Talking Points, I’d like to ask why Democracy is thought to automatically be the best for Pakistan? I could just as easily foresee a scenario where more extreme elements are able to win a majority and use the mandate to create a fairly extreme state based around Sharia law.

  145. 146 Bryan
    August 19, 2008 at 10:41

    nelsoni August 18, 2008 at 11:54 pm

    When you speak of “continued exoneration of troops” it makes it seem as if the killing of journalists by Israeli soldiers is a frequent occurrence. So far we have had three deaths in sixty years, that we know of, or, if you want to disregard the first 55 years of the conflict, three in the last five years or so. Given the frequency and severity of the clashes, this is evidence of the opposite of what you are trying to portray.

    Put any other country in Israel’s position and try to imagine how it would handle incessant and unprovoked wars against it and incessant terror attacks from those who hide amongst civilians. Put Russia, as an example, in Israel’s place, and imagine the civilian death toll you would have with the Russians combatting their enemies.

    Why put a disproportionate amount of blame on Israel?

  146. 147 Mohammed Ali
    August 19, 2008 at 10:52

    @Virginia Davis,
    I am not disagreeing with you, but the leaders represent the country. Of the 3 leaders mentioned above, only Samuel Doe was the least educated. Tolbert had a doctorate in Divinity, Taylor a masters in Economics.

  147. 148 Bryan
    August 19, 2008 at 10:53

    Bob in Queensland August 19, 2008 at 4:31 am

    @ Dan

    I’ve seen the rationalisation before that Begin’s terrorism was acceptable because it was directed against a military target rather than a civilian one.

    The argument, from me anyway, was not that “Begin’s terrorism was acceptable” but that it wasn’t terrorism, especially when you couple the fact that the King David was home to British military headquarters with the fact that three warnings were issued, one to the hotel, to evacuate. The British would not evacuate, saying, “We don’t take orders from Jews.” Interesting, isn’t it, that since Israel had not yet been established, the British could not hide their anti-Semitism behind an anti-Israel declaration, but had to come straight out with it.

    Suicide bombers attacking the US military? On another thread, in connection with the IRA, I mentioned that this is a difficult question but I think it’s fair to say that an attack against soldiers, no matter what one may think about the methods, is not terrorism simply because soldiers are there to fight and have the means to defend themselves.

    If you want to equate Yasser Arafat with Menachem Begin, you have to put on blinkers in order not to see some glaring facts. Arafat presided over countless cold-blooded terrorist attacks and attempted attacks exclusively against civilians, simply because they were Jews. And he exalted in their deaths.

    Yep, it’s the old moral equivalence from you for the nth time, Bob. Bombs explode and people die, therefore all the perpetrators are equally guilty, right? Wrong.

  148. August 19, 2008 at 10:59

    I think the world can deal with terrorist without president Pervez Musharaf, and this is a good decision for Musharaf to accept resignation for the seek of the people of Pakistan to live in peace and to elect civilian government that can bring development and promote of multiparties Democracy and good governance in Pakistan. the USA who is also expanding Democracy and fight terror in the world will keep their allies with Pakistan people if their future election will be free and fair.

    Nelson Makoy – Juba , Southern Sudan

  149. 150 Dan
    August 19, 2008 at 11:06

    @ Bob in Queensland
    Bryan said it so well no one can say it better.

  150. 151 Bryan
    August 19, 2008 at 11:25

    Well, thank you for that, Dan.

  151. 152 Mohammed Ali
    August 19, 2008 at 11:31

    If you agree that attacks against the military is not an act of terrorism, I have no problem with it.
    You have to know that Yasar Arafat was defending his people just as others do. There is no difference between what Begin did and that of Arafat.

  152. 153 Bob in Queensland
    August 19, 2008 at 12:08

    @ Bryan

    Yep, it’s the old moral equivalence from you for the nth time, Bob. Bombs explode and people die, therefore all the perpetrators are equally guilty, right? Wrong.

    If those bombs are designed to force your political cause on somebody else who disagrees with you, yeah I find an equivalence. It must be remembered that, in 1946 (the mandate period) the British carried political authority while Irgun WERE a terrorist movement. Although Irgun is best known in history for the King David Hotel bombing, they also killed hundreds of innocent arabs over the years. It’s worth noting that most of the Jewish poltical movement unreservedly condemned Irgun for their terrorist activities.

    Yeah, I see a moral equivalent. Irgun was in 1946 what the PLO was in the late 1990s….and perhaps what Hezboallah is today.

  153. 154 Suresh
    August 19, 2008 at 12:12


    Non-state actors in today’s world that use violence to further their political cause in the *presence* of the option of a ballot box are indisputably terrorists.

    Hezbollah’s cause does not give it the license to random acts of violence on civilians. God only knows where you find such absurd moral equivalences.

  154. 155 Bob in Queensland
    August 19, 2008 at 12:23


    In 1946, Menachem Begin was a leading member of Irgun, a “non state actor” that used “random acts of violence on civilians” as well as British officials to further the cause of the formation of a Zionist state. Read up on some of Irgun’s attacks on arab buses.

    Now, 60 years later, Israel is an established state and the object of terrorism–but that doesn’t mean it’s beginnings weren’t from exactly the same sort of bloody terrorism. ‘

    That’s where I find such “absurd” moral equivalence.

    I don’t write this to justify Hezboallah. I condemn their actions today as much as I condemn Irgun 60 years ago. However, ignoring the terrorist origins of Israel and some of the politicians who came to prominence years later is simply re-writing history.

  155. 156 steve
    August 19, 2008 at 13:13


    “right to be a mother” my rear end. If you want to become a mother, then have sex with a man. Don’t act entitled to science for you to do the impossible.

  156. 157 steve
    August 19, 2008 at 13:14

    @ Mohammad Ali

    “There is no difference between what Begin did and that of Arafat.”

    Begin didn’t steal money from his people and put his wife and kid up ina luxurious life in Europe

  157. 158 Angela in Washington D.C.
    August 19, 2008 at 13:18

    @Julie P

    I realize the discussion about Dan Quayle was from yesterday but the man was an idiot. I know some people disagreed because everyone makes mistakes at times but he made more mistakes than W. I don’t think W. is that smart. At least you can tell young children that you don’t need to be smart to be the President of the United States or the Vice President, as long as you come from a good family- you can be an idiot.

  158. 159 Dennis
    August 19, 2008 at 13:50

    Good Morning!

    Sorry for being around on the TP 19 August 2008–we had no power and had limited internet following a bad storm…


  159. August 19, 2008 at 13:55

    not potty training until she is 18 The guy is really
    I am thinking about going to have to like her he is going to get by the whole “still in diapers” issue. at best i might teach her to change her own diaper. Just a thought that my wife is not warming up to yet. We can get on to discussing cool stuff like physics and cause and affect.

  160. 161 Suresh
    August 19, 2008 at 14:01


    Irgun was 1946.

    I’m talking about today’s world. One cannot apply contemporary moral standards to the post-WW 2 world from 60 years ago. Today’s Israel should be judged by today’s standards.

    Moral equivalences should be drawn from the same time frame – I’d say plus or minus 5 years is fair.

  161. 162 steve
    August 19, 2008 at 14:05

    re: Terrorism

    Don’t the British view the US’s founding fathers as terrorists or at least traitors? Were not the loyalists “ethnically” cleansed to Canada?

  162. 163 Bob in Queensland
    August 19, 2008 at 14:21

    @ Suresh

    Actually Irgun operated from 1931 to 1948.

    As for dates, limit yourself as you like, but I’m sure you’re aware just how arbitrary you’re being. This debate started because somebody made a post critical of Yasar Arafat getting a Nobel Peace Prize for entering negotiations with Menachem Begin. The same poster saw nothing wrong with Menachem Begin using similar terrorist tactics 50 years previous to further the Zionist cause.

    Otherwise, by your standards, assuming that one day there’s an independen Palestinian state, in a few years you’ll have to greet the present Hezboallah leadership as great statesmen.

  163. 164 Angela in Washington D.C.
    August 19, 2008 at 16:28


    I just read the article about the two women. I think Americans are too happy to sue. If you don’t agree with the physician go to someone else. You don’t need to sue just because you don’t like what someone believes in. However, I think most lawyers like the fact that people are so ready to sue.

    I just read the discussion you all had last night. It was so interesting. I am disappointed that I missed it.

  164. 165 jamily5
    August 19, 2008 at 17:42

    I missed the discussion, also.
    I will say this about psych evaluations:
    Many times counseling is a broad field.
    If you go to marriage counseling or take your child: there is lots of work that you should do before hand.
    You need to find out what type of counselor that you are seeing.
    Psych evaluations are subjective.
    Sure, there are some guidelines, etc:
    But, we have to guard against
    1. counselor bias
    2. cultural differences and how they would relate to the tests
    3. if the person is being honest about his feelings/emotions/thoughts etc (After all, what is at stake)?

    All that said:
    Make it a mandate and I’ll go get my Masters/Doctorate.

  165. August 19, 2008 at 19:53

    @mental evals

    I don’t care if my leaders are mentally insane. In this country we have a tradition of making mountains out of mole hills. I also don’t care about a degree. I know people who would talk circles around most “degreed individuals”. Degrees in a country where it cost $150,000 to get in some disciplines would be a way to discriminate.

    I do think the candidates should have to take an exam that covers topics found in the “101” versions of economics, history, government, geography, psychology, sociology, and logic philosophy.

    They also speak fluently should also speak two languages fluently. They should be able to defeat a chess computer at the beginner level. AND they should also be able to pin down two strippers in a pudding pit.

  166. 167 Venessa
    August 19, 2008 at 19:57

    Dwight ~

    With those requirements I suspect our current president would have never made it in to office.

  167. 168 Angela in Washington D.C.
    August 19, 2008 at 20:05


    I concur. But he might have made it if he were able to cheat.

  168. 169 Bryan
    August 19, 2008 at 23:23

    Mohammed Ali August 19, 2008 at 11:31 am,

    Yasser Arafat was defending “his” people against what, exactly, peace and prosperity? Arafat was an Egyptian and the PLO was formed when he was outside of Palestine. This is precisely the same kind of nonsense that Hezbollah terrorists come up with when they talk about their “resistance” against Israel. Israel withdrew from Lebanon and has no interest in going back in unless attacked.

    The only thing that the Arabs are “resisting” is any Jewish (or Christian) presence on the sliver of land they see as Muslim property.

  169. 170 Bryan
    August 19, 2008 at 23:52

    Bob in Queensland August 19, 2008 at 12:08 pm,

    and Bob in Queensland August 19, 2008 at 12:23 pm

    Links, Bob. links. Let’s see the evidence of all these terrorist attacks from the Irgun, since you appear to be half-conceding that the King David was not your standard terrorist attack. And yes, there was a great deal of conflict, some of it violent, between the various Jewish groups at the time, especially between Ben Gurion and Begin. Politically, it suited Ben Gurion just fine to disparage Begin.

    And while we are mastering the art of moral equivalence, let’s not forget that terrorism in then Palestine was started by the Arabs against defenseless Jewish men, women and children. I suppose you have never heard of the Hebron massacre? We have to go back to the 1920s for that horror story. The British inflamed and armed the Arabs in their terror attacks on Jews from the twenties right through to the establishment of Israel. They conducted raids and set up roadblocks to disarm Jews, making them more vulnerable to Arab attacks. They encouraged Arab immigration while denying Jewish immigration, turning desperate Jews back into the embers of the Holocaust, away from the land they were mandated to help establish as a Jewish homeland. And they did their utmost to set the Jews up for a new Holocaust at the hands of the Arabs. There was even a British commander of a Jordanian force in 1948.

    But hell, Bob, let’s not concern ourselves with putting anything into context.

    One thing that fascinates me in these debates is the amount of times I hear someone say they condemn Arab terrorism without ever coming up with the condemnation independently. It’s always linked to their condemnation of the Jews to make their attitude appear balanced. Funny thing is, the condemnation of the Jews always comes first.

    I wonder why that is the case?

  170. 171 Bob in Queensland
    August 20, 2008 at 03:12

    @ Bryan

    Links? I suspect you know the history of the area full well and are just being disingenuous. However, if you want a summary history of Irgun and Menachem Begin I’d refer you to the Wikipedia entries for those two titles.

    No, I am NOT conceding that the KIng David Hotel attack was not terrorism. To start down the road that attacks on military targets is “okay” while cilvilan targets are wrong is a direction I don’t want to travel and I suspect you’d reject if it was turned around. If I posted in here that the murder of the two Israeli soldiers recently by Hezboallah was acceptable because they were military, I suspect you’d rightly reject that argument. The same works in reverse.

    As for “who started what”, that sounds more like a playground argument than international politics. One thing that characterises the mideast conflict is that both sides justify their actions as retaliation for a previous attack. Do you really think you can trace the problems between Israel and the arabs back to a single specific attack by one side? I doubt it and, in any case, afer 60+ years it’s a pointless exercise.

  171. 172 Bryan
    August 20, 2008 at 09:19

    Bob in Queensland August 20, 2008 at 3:12 am

    “To start down the road that attacks on military targets is “okay” while cilvilan targets are wrong is a direction I don’t want to travel and I suspect you’d reject if it was turned around.”

    No, I don’t reject it at all. Perhaps you missed the bit where I mentioned that I don’t think an attack on the military is terrorism, simply because soldiers are armed and able to fight back and go into conflict knowing that they are likely to come under attack. The suicide bomber who blows himself up at a US checkpoint is most likely a terrorist sent by terrorists, since it is only a matter of the luck of the draw that his target was not a market crowded with women. But the former attack is not really terrorism while the latter most certainly is. War is ugly. Can one terrorise armed soldiers, trained in battle?

    When Hezbollah captured Ehud Goldwasser and Eldad Regev, killed other soldiers and fired Katyushas as a distraction at Israeli towns, that was an act of war. If the two died of their wounds shortly after being captured, and if an effort was made to get them medical assistance, that is one thing. If they were murdered, and the Israelis suspect that at least one of them was, I would regard that as terrorism, since at that point they were obviously unarmed and helpless.

    I am trying to be fair here. To the extent that the Irgun committed random acts of murder of Arabs unconnected to terror against Jews, that is terrorism. To the extent that they pinpointed Arab venues that were terrorist strongholds, it isn’t.

    As far as who started what when, I tend to agree that that particular debate gets pointless, though it is a principle of war that the original aggressor bears the blame for the conflict. I guess terrorism is no different. But I’m not just talking about starting points. I’m talking about the history of Arab terror against Jews from those early days up to the present. The Arabs, under no threat of annihilation, had numerous opportunities to swap terror for peace, starting in 1947, with the UN-proposed partition of Palestine through to Oslo and beyond. They didn’t take them, preferring to reject compromise and hold out for the utter destruction of Israel – which intention they have never renounced. Contrast that with the Irgun and other groups, fighting for their very lives against a repetition of the Holocaust – this time at the hands of the Arabs and facilitated, as I said, by the British.

    The vital differences between the motivation and the actions of the two sides in this conflict as well as the vast qualitative and quantitative differences when it comes to terror cannot be ignored or wished away in the interests of “balance.”

  172. 173 Bryan
    August 20, 2008 at 11:18

    Links? I suspect you know the history of the area full well and are just being disingenuous

    No, I try not to be. I’m just genuinely interested in your evidence of Jewish terrorism in those days. I’m trying to dig up some of my own but it’s a difficult enterprise on the internet with the kind of sites you get exposed to when typing in the key words. Could endanger the old computer.

  173. 174 Bob in Queensland
    August 20, 2008 at 13:29

    If you have a genuine desire to read up on this part of Israel’s history, there are two books I can recommend.

    The first is Menachem Begin’s own book, which I believe is called “The Revolt: Story of Irgun”.

    The other is “By Blood and Fire” by Thurston Clark (not positive on the spelling…it may have an “e”).

    Sorry, I can’t help with ISBN numbers etc. My copies went into storage and didn’t come with me to Aus.

  174. 175 Bryan
    August 20, 2008 at 22:54

    Why would you doubt my interest is genuine? Unlike some news organisations I could name, I’m not only concerned with one side of the story.

    I recently read a biography of Begin, though I don’t recall the name right now. I’m sure not too many people know that he served with the British Army in some capacity, I forget which, during the war. His take on the conflict with Ben Gurion is interesting. I’ve also just finished Ariel Sharon’s autobiography, titled ‘Warrior’. It’s surprisingly well-written, for a military man, with religious attention to detail and even moving at times. He goes in some detail into the conflict between the various groups opposing or at times cooperating with the British. He also goes into detail on Sabra and Shatilla. That might interest you. He is adamant that he made it clear to the Phalangists that there were to be no attacks on civilians and that the Israeli cabinet was fully briefed on the issue. He was most bitter that he was made the fall guy and lost his position as Minister of Defence. He successfully sued Time Magazine, I think it was, for lying about his involvement in Sabra and Shatilla.

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