Good Morning, it’s Priya for the second time this week with some suggestions for today’s programme. Thank you ZK for watching the blog overnight and all of you for continuing the conversation while we were all asleep.
YOU SOLVE THE FOOD CRISIS
So, the Food Summit continues in Rome. World Leaders are attmepting to come up with solutions, although a fair few of you think that it is little more than a talking shop. So, what are your solutions?
Yesterday I suggested this one: Is it time to go vegetarian?
The rise in food prices is already being blamed on China and India – as millions in these coutnries ae lifted out of poverty, they eat more and they eat more meat in particular, putting pressure on food prices.
Should grain that is fed to animals be diverted back to humans?
Campaigner and writer George Monbiot has long argued that eating flesh is a really bad idea
There is plenty of food. It is just not reaching human stomachs. Of the 2.13bn tonnes likely to be consumed this year, only 1.01bn, according to the United Nation’s Food and Agriculture Organisation, will feed people.
Frogblog ponders the issue.
Here are a few facts:
• 760million tonnes of grain will be used to feed animals this year (biofuels will only use 100m tonnes) – that is 14 times the amount needed to feed the hungry.
• In the US alone 76% of grain will be used to feed animals.
• Beef requires 8kg of grain for every 1kg of meat they produce.
• Chicken needs 2kg of feed for every 1 kg of meat.
• 9.2bn -The world’s predicted population by 2050. It’s 6.6bn now.
IS IT TIME TO GO VEGETARIAN?
Or is it a terrible idea? Why?
What question would you ask an advocate of vegetarianism?
Meat consumption was not the only culprit put forward by various contributors to this blog. These ones got you going too:
*biofuels – land and crops are producing fuel when they should be producing food
*the Genetically Modified (GM) food ban in many countries – GM could help increase production
*over population – there are just too many mouths to feed
How should the food crisis be solved?
OBAMA v. MCCAIN
It looks like it’s on, Obama has declared victory, Hilary hasn’t quite conceded.
Last week, a poll suggested that if Obama was to become President, Europeans could fall back in love with America.
So, now we have two clear candidates, what does this mean for the rest of the world?
How would a McCain presidency affect you?
How would an Obama presidency affect you?
What are their foreign policy goals, really?
One columnist doesn’t expect a huge change from Obama.
McCain isn’t too keen either.
Glenn Greenwald isn’t very complimentary about McCain’s potential abroad.
Here is another dissection of what McCain may have to offer.
Perhaps you’ve got a question for one of their supporters? Get in touch.
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BBC World Have Your Say 
Hello Precious Chloe and Precious ZK… Please guys, check this out and tell me what you think : A shoulder to cry on in Baghdad, news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/7427372.stm. And to Precious Dennis from Madrid, USA : CONGRATULATIONS to you my good friend ! With my love… Yours forever, Lubna..
Hi…Chloe & ZK….
[Thanks Lubna}
Chloe, Lubna send me that message because i am attending Community College in Syracuse, New York!
I hope you enjoy your time on TP….
Dennis
Onondaga Community College
Syracuse, New York
Lubna’s article:
A shoulder to cry on in Baghdad
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/7427372.stm
The US military says levels of violence in Iraq are at their lowest for four years, but what psychological effect has constant unrest had on ordinary Iraqis? Caroline Wyatt returns to Baghdad after a 10-year absence to find out.
From mild anxiety, to grief and depression, schizophrenia or post-traumatic stress disorder, it strikes me that his patients’ symptoms were a sane response to the madness around them. Dr Amir Husain and his colleagues also seem a little anxious. They, too, suffer from insomnia, and a tendency to duck at loud noises.
“Have you seen the people in the streets just after a bomb attack?” [Staffan de Mistura, UN envoy to Iraq] asks me. “A few minutes afterwards you see them cleaning up, turning the page. For a moment, they cry, they show their anger, but then the Iraqis go and just get on with the job, as they have throughout their history. Now we need to give them the feeling that they are not alone.”
salam, Lubna
Have you got any mail from me? I sent you one a few days ago and have not heard back from you.
The symptoms that the people of Iraq are suffering are not unique. They are not insignificant, either. These are very real and very distressing symptoms of mental illness brought on by war. I was disappointed that the psychological impact of war was not covered more thoroughly. I would not be surprised at all if children have trouble sleeping, start up in the middle of the night screaming, and have trouble with bedwetting. These same symptoms are experienced by Palestinian children. The amount of stress in people’s daily lives also has a very real physical impact. The increased and long-term presence of cortisone affects the way that the body process food, the metabolism, and the rate at which ody ft is produced. Given the amount of time that we have illegally subjected the people of Iraq to this insipid war, the long-term presence of stress hormones, as well as the changed mentality that accompaniesd this new way of living, has likely produced the very same physilogical and biochemical conditions experienced by people who were essentially born with mental illness. But in the case of the Iraqi people and others so affected by war, is it something from which they can recover? Can they regain mental health? Will it be something passed down to their children and grandchildren?
And what of reparations?
@ Lubna [and everyone else]
Re: Story in the June 3, 2008 at 8:41 pm …
I wish that the world, would assist those people who have psychological, psychiastric and otehr related mental health problems……
And it breaks my heart.
Dennis
Onondaga Community College
Syracuse, New York
Is Europe and Japan seen as terrorist market places?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7434374.stm
And what of reparations?
in the bbc news story
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/7427372.stm
where are the money! probably in a swiss bank account.
Dennis
Onondaga Community College
Syracuse, New York
Chloe, if you are still there, could you tell us who’s who?
Shirley, apologies for the delay in my response I was cooking dinner! Although this picture is a little dark it has everyone’s name on it. Unfortunately I couldn’t be there that night as it was my mum’s birthday!
Hi Shirley,
Concerning your question, “who is who?” They are current and former members of the WHYS Team. I am glad to give you most of the answers on behalf of Chloe. I hope she will give you the rest of the answers soon.
The ladies from left to right are: Priya, Victoria Harrison, Rabiya Limbada, and Fiona Crack. I ma sorry I am not sure about the name of the lady in a green dress.
Behind the ladies, it’s Peter Van Dyk. The tall gentleman on the right with glasses is Maestro Mark Sandell. I am sorry I don’t know the name of the gentlemen near him.
For the guys at the front, they are from the left: Leonardo Rocha, Martin Vennard, Ros Atkins, and Richard Bowen.
This link can be of help to give you information about some of them: http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/worldhaveyoursay/2006/12/meet_the_team.html
Abdelilah,
Marrakesh, Morocco
Has to be a talking point and part of the show – Obama is the winner!
@ Will
where is Steve when we need him??
I don’t think HRC & spouse are going away, just yet.
Sit back and enjoy the show!
maybe spectacle would be a better choice of a word, rather than show
He has 2106 delegates, some have come over from her – he needs 12 more. 🙂
Go Obama Go!
+ It will be quite interesting to see whether Mr. Obama sells-out on his alleged “change” and offers the vice-presidency to Mrs. Clinton for the sake of a sure win. I suspect he will. I suspect supporters of both will twist logic and reason, yet again, to explain why this isn’t selling-out.
Voting is all about the lesser of two evils. Of course logic needs to be twisted to be justified!
@ Vanessa,
+ Thanks, Vanessa, I was just waiting for that—that “lesser of two evils” nonsense that is used over and over to justify just about everything. It’s unacceptable to me, but apparently for many others it’s the modus operandi. This dumbing-down of principles, to make things more palpable for a mediocre public, really needs to cease.
How is it unnacceptable. For people like me (Independent) I absolutely am never satisfied with either candidate. Look at it as voting for most acceptable, best under circumstance, or lesser of two evils – the point remains the same. Unless party politics is tossed out the window I have no other choice.
It seems that he has gone over the 2118 needed and Barack Obama is the nominee for the Democratic party.
To those American that supported and voted for him – you have created a day in American history and you should be exceptionally proud!
Are politicians any different than kids on a playground? I wonder sometimes and agree completely with Vanessa about pitting your demons, I changed my mind since I last voted.
Presidents from Zimbabwe and Iran are at the world summit hosted in Rome: this is the news all day about it all day and some actually are ensuing that they should have been rejected but they can’t even come to a conclusion on GM crops, you have to search to find a story, ridiculous.
What’s wrong with Iran’s president A, who’s name I refuse to even try to spell because he’s not worth the effort. Did he forget where the map goes after Egypt; does he even understand that to delete Israel they would wipe Palestine away as well? Does he really expect to be invited over to his friends house for cookies and milk after regurgitating that garbage in front of a world summit on hunger. You don’t even have to guess: natty’s not coming to dinner. The next string of words would start with the slang for donkey so I’ll just leave it at that.
@ Tino,
Why? Because it’s the same reasoning folks like Mr. Bush use, to justify taking away rights and freedoms, for the sake of a war on terror, for an outcome they perceive as the greater good—or the lesser of two evils. If we all go down this path our society will be lessened. This is the plea bargaining of intelligence and it’s the perfect recipe for mediocrity.
Hey guys, apologies I’m late. Just got into work. I see that obviously the top story right now is Senator Obama’s winning of the Democratic nomination.
I’ll leave it to you, ZK – I have to get some material for my blog but you can bet it will be about this historic win!
As a side point – Hillary Clinton has still not conceded the race.
Reparations:
We broke it. Now we need to pay for it to be fixed.
If the U.S. government and its funding (funding, $$) corporations were to pay out reparations in order to right the wrong and equalise the inequalities that it has caused from the beginning, I am certain that the government and its buddy corporations would be bankrupt.
I almost don’t care.
Reparations is the most absurd notion ever. Since when has a new generation been responsible for the previous one’s crimes. Do we jail the sons/daughters of murderers or force them to pay money?
“Why? Because it’s the same reasoning folks like Mr. Bush use, to justify taking away rights and freedoms, for the sake of a war on terror, for an outcome they perceive as the greater good—or the lesser of two evils. If we all go down this path our society will be lessened. This is the plea bargaining of intelligence and it’s the perfect recipe for mediocrity.”
It is just a term, not a big deal the way I see it. In addition, as far as I can tell, The Patriot Act has not been abused at all. G-Bay is 100% ok with me (why should we have to give rights to people who try to kill us and do not even have said rights in their own countries?).
It’s my sincerest wish that for the purpose of WHYS we could frame the US election around issues that we’re discussing relevantly. That said I do support Obama. But I listen to a lot of African American news and they’re so elated with his Presidential prospect, rightly so, but the saturation level is literally like going from black and white to color. Unfortunately this allows people to become blinded and you can just see all the negativity that is going to be thrown at Obama by his opponent. I just wish that Americans could see the real prospects of another Republican Presidency:
Decades or centuries more in Iraq surpassing the 6 Billion estimate that would include us paying for our exit somewhat in the reparation style that Shirley is talking about. On the food crisis: McCain has admittedly no idea how to solve the economic side of this issue so how will he affect it, he has no stand on moderation of GM crops. Obama at least supports labeling GM products and I believe he would have a more natural ability to negotiate compromises in Africa for instance where the famine is so severe.
So if the BBC is going to make this a global conversation let’s involve the globe and ask what the candidates can do for this planet.
With McCain in office you won’t have to worry about reparations once he’s used up the next 3 billion that would have given Iraq some money to rebuild upon our exit, he’ll keep on using money until they’ve sucked out all the oil and built new roads and ‘infrastructure’ to get to it. There not only won’t be any money left for Iraqi’s; there won’t be any money left for Americans, your kids will get to feel the ‘success’ of food prices hitting the inflation rate of the imminent fuel shortage.
The U.S. Dept of Homeland Sec. today announced the new policy that requires citizens of the 27 visa-waiver countries (France, the UK, Japan, Singapore, Australia among them) to register their information online with the U.S. Govt at least 72 hours before departure.
Was this really necessary? We’re already required to use biometric passports to enter the U.S..
Linking this back to the election, I’ve no idea what Obama’s stance towards this is, although I’d expect McCain’s to be in support.
I love going to Canada. I just get a retinal scan and blam, I bypass border control. I wish coming into the US could be as easy.
I’d like to suggest getting a closer look at Tony Blair’s brand new Faith Foundation. What are its own specific aims (given the fact that numerous such foundations and organizations already exist). Will it be more focussed on socio-political and humanitarian issues than on merely interreligious matters, given Blairs experience in global politics? It is prepared to take a stand on human rights violations, and speak out on them? Or does it have less political, and more authentically spiritual aims?
Also, what lies behind Blairs conversion to catholicism? Are we seeing another Cardinal Newman/Oxford Movement tendency here? I mean, the shift to catholicism must imply a critique of the C of E, not so?
As author of ‘Samdhong Rinpoche: Uncompromising Truth for a Compromised World’ ( published in 2006 ), and ‘The Gospel for Buddhists and the Dharma for Christians’ (due out in Jan 2009), these questions are of great interest to me…
…together with the question: how does Blair reconcile this faith venture with his record of solidarity with the Bush administration and the Iraq misadventure.
I know we have discussed this topic on two occassions on air on WHYS, the issuse of Barak Obama’s nomination for the Democrats as their candadite for up coming presidential elections i the USA. On both occassions I have ardently argued that Obama will not be nominated simply because he is black and the white Americans will want to see that.
Well, it seems that the Americans have proven me all wrong and have gone for Mr. Obama. What does this mean for American politics, has it set an example for the entire world to follow, will Mr. Obama go on to clinch the American Presidency and many more questions will be asked.
Even in my home country, Liberia, our constitution is racist in that it does not allow whites to become citizens or own land. Can we now learn from the American example and erase that clause from the constitution.
Lastly, I want to say that I am extremely proud of the American people, they have shown to the world that racism is a thing of the past.
Congratulations to Mr. Obama.
@Shirley, you are quite right. Those symptons affect almost everyone in a condition of uncertainty on whether you will be alive the next minute or dead as a result of guns or bombs. That is something we actually experienced here in Liberia during our 15 years long civil war. i am sympathy with the Iraqis and hope that their woes will have an early solution.
@donovan robert, Tony Blair Faith Foundation is all about publicity. What he did not do change when he had the power to do so i.e. when he Prime Minister of Great Britain, he will not do or changer now.
I’d like to expand a little on the approach that I’d take to a discussion of the Tony Blair Faith Foundation:
My feeling is that religion in today’s world must needs stand very close to humanism (even atheist materialist humanism) in order to effectively address the huge global concerns that face us today. Religion can’t stand aloof from these and from all institutions which are attempting to remedy these ills, including science and politics.
The rescue of the planet from severe deterioration is a religious concern, and religion must act and speak into the factors that are causing this deterioration, the more so as it impacts on the quality of life of all living beings, and on their eventual destiny.
Central to the problem of planetary deterioration is unchecked and de-moralized human economic (and other categories) of intervention. In these areas greed and violence play a huge role, and it is surely a priority of religious bodies today to act effectively into these fields of human endeavour. It is the most important issue around which people of all religions can and must unite; the unquestionable starting point for all united religious endeavour, I’d say.
So, are we going to see the TBFF moving in this direction? And who are the people they will be working with? Will we see them taking advice from James Martin, Martin Rees, James Lovelock et al.? Will we see them standing in solidarity with outspoken religious figures of genuine charism, such as Desmond Tutu and the Dalai Lama?
To Mohammed Ali I’d like to say: Yes, it’s difficult not to think of Tony Blair in those terms. But, given the very risky step he has taken in setting up the Faith Foundation (risky to himself and his reputation, I mean), shouldn’t we at least give him the benefit of the doubt and wait for the first results before writing the whole thing off?
Donovan, lets agree that religions have a major role to play in saving the earth and stuff like that. They can play important role in getting politicians to cut back on the emission of green house gas and hence limit the destruction of the ozone layer of the atmosphere. But if we are to take it at solving political problems/crisis/wars, like the one in the Mid-East, then I think religions will play no meaningful role and this is simply due to the fact that most of those problems have religious undertone.
I beleive that religions and religiously groupings are causing more conflicts than helping to solve them.
I agree that religion plays a big role in initiating ideological conflicts which lead to violence. But this is precisely why it is a religious problem, and needs to be solved within the context of religious debate leading to religious renewal and unity, at least in terms of honouring fundamental human rights and upholding human dignity.
In this regard, for instance, I think that Christianity needs to revisit with great seriousness the idea of the ‘just war’, and to define much more closely what a ‘just war’ is, and then condemn ‘unjust wars’,such as the war in Iraq. the same holds good for Islam. I can see no reason why prominent and respected Muslim scholars and commentators cannot make the simple statement that Jihad is allowable only if it does not cause intentional harm to others. Then Jihad can really be what it is supposed a be: a struggle against harmful and unspiritual behaviour.
I’ve been an advocate of vegetarianism as part of the solution to the global food crisis for a LONG time. There really isn’t much debate about whether or not its right or wrong. The debate lies in peoples unwillingness to change their lifestyles for the better of their health, the general public and the world; environment included.
As prices continue to rise, it will push more and more people towards lessening the amount of meat they consume due to the ever-increasing prices. Rather the world as a whole will lessen its overall meat consumption, that I doubt. I see more of a re-distribution of meat stocks around the world with the increasing affluency of Chinese and Indian diets, among others. So while some countries will be consuming more meat, the fat and heart-diseased westerners will be reducing theirs (hopefully).
Click to access Global_benefits_summary.pdf
Obama will become the next US president.I have no doubt about that anymore.
The food crisis is hiting hard over here.I heard the UN Secetary General mention Liberia in particular, and he was quite right.Now the problem is in the hands of local governments to formulate policies that will actually work for small farmers here.I was ashame when I heard the Senegalise president speak at the meeting. The views he was expressing was not that of lot of hungry people on this continient.That is one of the greatest problems we have here, presidents without vision and ideas on how to resolve the real problems we face.Shame on Wade and Mugabe.
Agree with Mohammed on religion issue, especially with regard to the Faith Foundation – it will do nothing at least in the middle east.
As for Obama, he is an awful choice for President. He could not ‘disown’ Wright which is ridiculous. For someone claiming to want Unity and to transcend race he sure botched that one – and there is simply no way you did not know his views beforehand. His Auschwitz claim was ridiculous no matter how you look at it, claiming that on memorial day is completely offensive (and he had done something similar before). He has terrible foreign policy ideas, when he is not busy switching his views on the subject. For the rest of his policies he advocates ‘change’ without spelling out exactly what he means.
I will vote McCain (and would do so happily for once if he would choose someone like Lieberman for VP). Obama is terrible.
Being vegetarian is unnecessary in light of many GM advances which could provide for plenty of people:
“https://worldhaveyoursay.wordpress.com/2008/06/03/talking-points-3-june/#comment-28430
$1 billion dollars ~= 4,166,666,666 pounds of rice @ these record prices which were NOT how much it cost at the time of the article writing so consider it a fairly conservative estimate. Not sure how many people that feeds but it sounds like a whole lot.”
I do not see why I should change my ways if you are not willing to change yours (anti-GM). I absolutely love meat and have no intention of giving it up, even if I had to hunt it myself. There is no better taste in the world. In addition 4.167 billion pounds of rice is pretty huge no?
“I can see no reason why prominent and respected Muslim scholars and commentators cannot make the simple statement that Jihad is allowable only if it does not cause intentional harm to others. Then Jihad can really be what it is supposed a be: a struggle against harmful and unspiritual behaviour.”
Are you an Islamic scholar or are you spouting off the PC-Nonsense we hear today? Jihad is legitimately regarded as fighting: it is not ‘supposed’ to be a personal struggle. Read the Qur’an for once, please. That is the reason they cannot make such a ‘simple’ statement, because Jihad pops up frequently in there and discussing the Qur’an is not a valid option since it is regarded as the LITERAL word of God.
@ Tino:
How can you hate on one candidates affiliation with a lefty-radical preacher, and not acknowledge and have every bit of the same disdain and disgust for the even greater number of NeoCon bigoted religious leaders that the candidate you back has ties with?
Its a bit like the pot calling the kettle black…
Here is a small summary of some of his ‘pastoral’ backings and ‘spiritual leaders’:
http://mediamatters.org/items/200803250012
2 bits of news:
(1) Obama wins, Hillary refuses to quit. How predictable. Like I always have said, she won’t leave without a kicking and screaming and foot stomping temper tantrum like a 4 year old child would do. Politicians are mentally ill people.
(2) Due to “unprecedented fuel costs” United Airlines is grounding 100 planes (meaning fewer flights) and firing 1600 employees. Message to oil industry: Your greed is costing people their jobs. That means they cannot buy your product.
@ Steve:
Message to oil industry: Your greed is costing people their jobs. That means they cannot buy your product.
Short… To the point… I LIKE IT!
RE: Steve’s note about the fuel costs and United Airlines. India is going to stop subsidising fuel, it has been holding the pump price low, more poor are going bite the dust. Pure greed and a careless attitude by the speculators and the multi’s, have created the high prices. Come on our leaders get a grip and stop them right now, no excuses, no more very costly surveys as to why not, Just action.
1 Stop the trading and speculation of oil as a commodity by law, through out the World.
2 Face up to the multis, they are always complaining, finding excuses for the high prices of crude. Just look at the annual results to see that they are playing with you.
Keep the promises you made us when getting ready for the elections.
3 Stop this im alright jack attitude of the speculators, you are destroying the so called middle class, that which you call the solid supports of any nation. as well as forcing thousands on to the bread line.
We completed our part of the agreement when we voted for you, don’t talk every thing to a stand still, don’t entertain those that you know only want to benefit themselves. Millions will thank you.
Remember we are your people, and we cant afford expensive lobbyists. Thats a point, would oil be cheaper if the lobbyists were stopped? im only asking.
John in Germany.
@ Brett
You do realize he rejected their endorsements the minute those stories came to light right? And that he never attended the church’s of any of these people? The two situations are worlds apart. McCain did not sit through either one’s sermons for 20 years so to expect him to know their views is ridiculous. And, as I said, the minute he knew of them he rejected their endorsements. No BS about how Wright is like his supposedly racist white grandmother who he also cannot disown.
“In a statement to CNN on Thursday, McCain said “Obviously, I find these remarks and others deeply offensive and indefensible, and I repudiate them. I did not know of them before Rev. Hagee’s endorsement, and I feel I must reject his endorsement as well.””
“I believe there is no place for that kind of dialogue in America, and I believe that even though he endorsed me, and I didn’t endorse him, the fact is that I repudiate such talk, and I reject his endorsement.” (In reference to Parsley)
Sorry, not even remotely the same situation. Of course I am sure you being blindly left-leaning would cause you to miss that (for the record, I am registered independent and assumed I would be voting Democrat this time around, but their choice of candidate is completely ridiculous).
The article above regarding the shifting dietary habit of China has a very meaningful ending:
“According to an old Chinese saying, we should wear enough clothing to avoid feeling cold and eat enough food to avoid feeling hungry. That means we should not eat too luxuriously.”
When I was a child growing up in the 80’s in then not-so-affluent Hong Kong, the old Chinese phrase “every grain of rice is the result of a farmer’s labour” has been repeatedly drummed into my mind. Because of that I’ve always endeavoured to finish every grain of rice and strand of noodles to avoid sinful food wastages. Now in the affluence of Australia, however, I’m amazed at how many restaurants continue to serve out more food than a customer could consume without damaging his/her health. More often than not I would leave my plate half empty. Because of that phrase I would initially feel guilty at having to leave so much perfect food to waste. As this occurred more and more, this guilt gradually became replaced first by acceptance, then followed by indifference, especially when plateful of unfinished food are everywhere to be seen in restaurants that serve more food than the customers could finish. That’s when I was at last fused into the local eating culture!
The current food crisis could be blamed to a large degree on a culture of luxurious, wasteful abundance in affluent societies. One single dish could be a day’s worth of food or even more for many people in poorer countries.
Nowadays I rarely eat out not only because it’s becoming expensive, but by cooking for myself I’m able to adjust and to cook just “enough food to avoid feeling hungry”.
@ Tino,
You are so wrong about McCain rejecting the endorsements of Revs. Hagee and Parsley. Their statements were out in the public domain for a VERY long time and the McCain camp actively sought their endorsements. Either they didn’t do their homework (all you had to do was Google them) or they didn’t care. It took many weeks for Sen. McCain to reject the endorsement of Rev. Hagee and only did the same on Rev. Parsley once the general public began to see the Rev. Parsley for who he is. McCain has run so far to the right it’s amazing. Please don’t call me a bleeding heart liberal simply because I can see the truth. Do I agree with everything that Sen. Obama says? No. But I do think that he will do a better job at leading the U.S. and restoring our reputation.
Amy in Beaverton
@ Tom
I agree with you regarding the mindset of finishing every part of a meal. I think this is especially true with regard to meat where some animal died to feed you. It seems like a small thing to expect one to finish their plate – and if they cannot to take it home/store it for later.
@ Amy
He did not actively seek his endorsements as far as I understood, if you could provide me with evidence that would be appreciated. The point still stands that he never attended their church and it is unreasonable to expect him to know their full views. They came to light and he rejected their endorsements, at a large cost to himself politically. The majority of people that would be hugely upset by this are left-leaning to begin with. The people he risks alienating by rejecting him are those that are on the far right which he currently needs to build support from. Obama did not reject Wright until way later, and he MUST have known of those views beforehand since he attended the church for 20 years.
@ Amy
“But I do think that he will do a better job at leading the U.S. and restoring our reputation.”
There are more important things than reputation. Great, so when you go to Europe you won’t have to pretend you’re a Canadian. The economy will still be terrible, gas will still be expensive. For a republican, mccain is putting a lot of stress on climate change and alternative energy sources. He at least says something other than “change”. If you’re voting only because of “reputation” then I suggest you take a harder look at the candidates. This isn’t high school, popularity is irrelevant.
McCain did not sit through either one’s sermons for 20 years so to expect him to know their views is ridiculous.
But yet he can claim them as a ‘spiritual leader / guide’? Something there in that argument doesn’t quite add up.
I’m still missing the difference between Obama’s denouncing of statements and McCain’s denouncing of statements of their religious affiliates. Both have come out to say they don’t agree, yet neither has fully turned their back on these idiots. What then makes McCain so much better than Obama in these regards?
And I’m sorry you feel my views are blindly leaning to any side because I do not agree with your justification of McCain and his ‘religious’ affiliates. To ignore such affiliations on any side or of any candidate is blind, Tino. Personal attacks lend little credibility to your argument.
(for the record, I am registered independent and assumed I would be voting Democrat this time around, but their choice of candidate is completely ridiculous).
That is wonderful, I am registered as an independent also. And I agree the choices on both sides are lacking, at best.
As Brett has pointed out, going vegetarian has obvious positive consequences for the food crisis. It’s important to qualify this, however, by adding that vegetarians should try to avoid gm foods for a whole range of reasons, from moral to health to bad economics.
I speaking recently to Miyere Ole Miyandazi, the Maasai human rights activist, and he was expressing his concerns about the invasion of Kenyan agriculture by gm sales crews: ‘It’s like trade in addictive drugs: the first fix (of seed) is for free. After that you pay and pay and pay. Then, when you realize your complete dependence on the seed salesmen and want to get free, you can no longer find your old seeds. People must do everything in their power to hold on to their (non-gm) seeds.’
Besides the other bad aspects of the gm drive for food monopoly, this type of dealing is criminal, plain and simple.
Tino: Yes, I am familiar with the Q’uran. As in the Old Testament Christian scriptures, there are calls to violence. But the point I was trying to make is that religions today need to redefine their scriptural bases and bring them in line with the pressing needs of the planet and the living beings which inhabit it. I know that I am appealing to enlightened Christian and Muslim scholars and laypeople, and that the current state of world religions (and especially extremist Islam) does not give one much grounds for hope. Again, this is no reason to give up trying.
The hope must be that eventually these sorts of arguments will get through even to people like yourself, who disagree so strongly with the idea that change is possible.
“I’m still missing the difference between Obama’s denouncing of statements”
Obama did not reject Wright when his sermons first came to light. McCain did, and to me that is a huge difference. In addition, as I said, Obama should be expected to have known those views before hand having attended the church for 20 years.
“Both have come out to say they don’t agree, yet neither has fully turned their back on these idiots.”
How has McCain not fully turned his back on them? Also, has Obama not – after a lengthy delay and much excuse making before that – also turned his back on Wright? My biggest problem with what Obama did is that he did not immediately reject Wright. I would have zero problem with what happened, though would reserve doubts (due to 20 year issue), if he had instantly rejected Wright.
I would have zero problem with what happened, though would reserve doubts (due to 20 year issue), if he had instantly rejected Wright.
I completely agree with you there.
“But the point I was trying to make is that religions today need to redefine their scriptural bases and bring them in line with the pressing needs of the planet and the living beings which inhabit it.”
As I stated, you cannot redefine the scriptural basis of Islam, as the book is regarded as the Literal Word Of God. It is therefore above criticism from man. While some Christians also feel that way, the majority believe that it was penned by man and therefore open to some change. (Ref: http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?PageID=1084)
That presents a huge problem, for obvious reasons.
“It’s important to qualify this, however, by adding that vegetarians should try to avoid gm foods for a whole range of reasons, from moral to health to bad economics.”
Could one of you anti-GM types please address the rice example I presented? Could you also state to me your objections based on morals and health? Trust me you stand on unsteady ground. In addition, why is it ok for you to crusade against us carnivores? Live and let live I say, you do not see me trying to shove a cow at you guys.
An FAO news article seems to indicate that Western extravagance does have a real impact on the access to food by the rest of the world. I especially agree with the lines that he drew between our military spending and activities and food shortages around the world. Jacques Diouf noted that in 2006 the world spent US$1,200 billion on arms while food wasted in a single country could cost US$100. He also called us out on our anti-environmental policies, stating that US$11-12 billion of subsidies in 2006 were used to divert 100 million tonnes of cereals from human consumption. This has also been a concern of mine, one that is hard to balance with my views that a fossil fuel-based patrol system causes too much environmental damage.
There was also a piece mentioning an FAO Initiative on Soaring Food Prices. The Initiative is described as calling for “seeds, fertilizer, and tools…improve[d] infrastructure…better handling, milling and storage, defending crops and livestock from pests, sickness and disease…” It concerns me, because I don’t want so much Western technology being poured on Africa if it is only going to destroy Africa’s ecology. Pieces such as FAO’s news article on a “Green Revolution in Africa” offer some comfort, but I have not yet seen the kind of assurance that I want that technologies introduced to Africa will not harm the environment. The article quotes Kofie Annan as saying, “We hope to spur a green revolution in Africa which respects biodiversity and the continent’s distinct regions and great variety of crops…” He is the Chairman of AGRA. Some initiatives mentioned in the article were to develop and promote higher yielding seeds, soil fertility options, water management systems, and market development.
Question for Brett:
Embracing diversity vs. animal rights, which is more important to you?
Think of all those sheep being offered to the fictional sky deity.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/7434193.stm
Mohammed Ali, haven’t there been other minority presidents in other countries previous to Obama? Btw, what you said about anti-white policies in Oberia struck me. I have the very unique position that there is no reason to have ingratiating policies towards white pople in Africa. If discrimination against whites is legalised there, then there is a whole world for white people in North America and Europe. I feel that it is a moot point. It seems so often that the white presense in Africa is a hangover from the colonialist days, anyway, so I really do not ave any sympathy for htme. My view is that they should go home where they came from, even if that home was left by their parents or grandparents several decades ago. Why not let Africa be the haven for black people; and why not lend our assistance to the development of the African people as part of the West’s reparations for the criminal slave trade and colonisation?
Steve, the reason that I pestered you the last time that you referred to the Islamic concept of deity as “sky deity” is because proper Islamic belief does not hold that God is located in the sky, or up high, or on the throne, or any of that fictional nonsense propounded by the literalist salafist extremists. They are the breakaway. They are the minority. Can you at least find another insulting way to refer to God in our concept that is based more on the reality of our beliefs?
UN Food Summit
There are some points of confusion and holes that I feel are missing in news coverage of the summit. A Yahoo News article mentions trade barriers, but does this really mean that the UNFAO supports pieces like NAFTA and CAFTA?? NPR mentioned a “key policy document prepared for the summit,” but I have not seen it in my searching. If anyone else comes across it, please let me know.
Mugabe is claiming that the West is attempting regime change in Zimbabwe. The linked article referenced land transfers in conjunction with destroyed agriculture, a link that I do not understand. And the Telegraph gave some details of Ahmedinijad’s diatribes. I don’t yet make the conections that he did. What was published of Ahmedinijad’s words fails to make a connection between Zionist/Western(?) bullying power and the food crisis, unless high oil prices and the weak dollar are to be assumed a cause of the crisis. Perhaps IRNA has published all or most of his speech? It will be interesting to see whether he has addressed the food crisis as such at all. Or perhaps he is more out of field than am I?
why is it ok for you to crusade against us carnivores?
Do you mean aside from the obvious reasons of unhealthy meant-packed diets and its effects on the healthcare system and ultimately health insurance prices? Problems range from hormones and their effects on the human body to heart disease and obiesity and cancer.
So while America gets fatter and sicker, I help foot the bill with rising insurance costs and taxes to pay for these problems.
Aside from its damaging effects on the environment?
Aside from its production and manufacturing hogging resources which could be better spent elsewhere?
As of now, you wont catch me at any protests or rallies, I wont tell people what they can and can’t do, but I will present the facts.
Now these arguments could all be justified with comments such as “Well theres alot of bad things out there and bad industries and unhealthy foods, why this one?” We could go all day rationalizing every industry that is harming us if we wanted to. But why do it?
I look on this epidemic in a similar light to smoking. Except smoking doesn’t have the same impact on the environment, just a health epidemic.
I’m not calling for everyone to STOP eating meat, just reduce it. You dont need sausage and bacon for breakfast, a big mac for lunch, and a steak for dinner.
Live and let live Look where that American mentality has gotten us though. A public transportation infrastructure based on the automobile, packed full of trucks and SUV’s on the brink of a collapse due to high gas prices which we never prepared for. A society rife with cancer and sickness due to our own irresponsibility with our bodies and our environment.
If I can peacefully change someones mind to get them to eat meat only a few times a week so that they can live a healthier life and have less of an impact on the environment, why shouldn’t I try?
“If I can peacefully change someones mind to get them to eat meat only a few times a week so that they can live a healthier life and have less of an impact on the environment, why shouldn’t I try?”
That is fine, but you look hypocritical when you are against the rice strain I brought up simply because it is GM. Please address said issue, any of you who are anti-GM. Or is it just an empty, evidence-lacking fight?
@ Shirley
If God has any objections to what I call him, let him post on here. If he doesn’t, I presume he has no objections.
Question for Brett:
Embracing diversity vs. animal rights, which is more important to you?
Think of all those sheep being offered to the fictional sky deity.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/7434193.stm
Well, we are the dominant species for now. So human rights come first, followed by animal rights. Human rights should not be sacrificed to make way for animal rights, but a balance should always be sought.
I hope they at least ate the slaughtered animals or used their fur.
Furthermore to stun animals before they are killed. If you do it correctly, there is no need to stun them in my opinion, just keep them from suffering. The problem is when you have cows and other animals on their way through the slaughterhouse, hanging upsidedown, still alive and flailing because they were not properly put down at the begining of the process.
@ Tino:
That is fine, but you look hypocritical when you are against the rice strain I brought up simply because it is GM.
How do I look hypocritical? Please show me where I was against that rice strain. I never said anything about it. I’m not against it, skeptical, yes, but not against it. I have not voiced my opinion at all about it… You must be thinking of another user. (?)
@ Brett
You really believe that a human “need” to kill animals for the pleasure of a fictional book character outweighs the animals right to remain alive?
Race Relations
Mohammed Ali, haven’t there been other minority presidents in other countries previous to Obama? Btw, what you said about anti-white policies in Oberia struck me. I have the very unique position that there is no reason to have ingratiating policies towards white pople in Africa. If discrimination against whites is legalised there, then there is a whole world for white people in North America and Europe. I feel that it is a moot point. It seems so often that the white presense in Africa is a hangover from the colonialist days, anyway, so I really do not ave any sympathy for htme. My view is that they should go home where they came from, even if that home was left by their parents or grandparents several decades ago. Why not let Africa be the haven for black people; and why not lend our assistance to the development of the African people as part of the West’s reparations for the criminal slave trade and colonisation?
President
I’ve heard that Obama will be meeting with Israeli leaders today. His staunch pro-Islarael stance is a deep concern for me. There are many who doubt his seemingly unwavering support of Israel, such as this article author. I know that Obama used t suuport Palestine, but I don’t think that he is going to stop kissing up to AIPAC even after he becomes President. Obama dropped several liberal issues as he progressed along hsi political path. As a liberal, I am disappointed.
@ Brett
You really believe that a human “need” to kill animals for the pleasure of a fictional book character outweighs the animals right to remain alive?
If they are killing them and then eating them, what is the difference if it is for religion or in a slaughterhouse? They are being killed either way. As long as the remains are being utilized and not wasted.
And no I don’t agree with killing in the name of religion and that includes people and animals.
Religion
Is there really reason to think that Tony Blair’s switch to the Catholic Church is a sign of disagreement with the Archbishop of Canterbury? I am curious about why nothing more has been said about the Faith Foundation. Donovan Roebert brought up a very interesting link between religion and the environment in the context of bringing rleiigon and humanism closer. Donovan, I do not yet understand what you mean by “humanism.” Can you explain? As for the environment, I know that reently Pope Benedict included the abuse of the environment as a cardinal sin. And while it is not broadcast loudly, Islam does include envionmental concerns in its academic circles. A Sunni Muslim webmaster has this article on the topic; and the late (shahid?) Ayatullah Muhammad Baqir as-Sadr devoted quite a bit of space to it on the 2nd chapter (“Economic Relationships“) of his book “An Islamic Perspective of Political Economy.”
Donovan, your mention of the concept of the “just war” in Christianity reminded me of a similar concept, manifest destiny, which I opine still plays a very important role, even if subconsciously, in the policies of today’s Western leaders. What you said of jihad, though, does not seem enough to the point: the concept of jihad needs to be returned to its original importance. Originally, jihad was more an internal struggle than a combative one; and the combative struggle was reserved for those situations in which Muslims or any pepole were being oppressed by a tyrannical leader. Today, the added quid-pro-quo is the qualifications for the call to jihad in that only the Imam/Caliph (both Sunni & Shia), or a council of the majority of scholars (Sunni) can cal for it. These days, the literalist extremism of the salafism has the backing of huge amounts of Saudi (oil) dollars, and their miseducation has been spread around the globe. Included among their wilfull errors is the thinking that combative jihad is the greater jihad, while internal jihad is the minor jihad. Think about that next time you fill up your tank.
Tino,
You are not even a Muslim, much less a Muslim scholar. Why should you be considered any kind of authority on what are the beliefs and teachings of Islam, especially as concerns jihad and which version of jihad is emphasised in Islam?
Steve,
I made my request of you not because I feared that God might be offended, but because I knew that I was personally offended. You continue to assume that I worship a physical entity that calls the sky his home. It’s another one of the many asumptions that non-Muslims are making about my religion, and usually incorrectly.
@ Shirley
I’m not singling out Muslims, I’m talking about anyone who believes God, be it Jews, christians, or whatever. Given there’s no evidence of God, God has never communicated with anyone because it doesn’t Exist, and given that people get killed over said fictional deity, I think religion has done more harm than good, and if god has a problem with me not believing in him, or calling him fictional, then let him post a message on here. Better yet, why doesn’t he prove his existence for the world sooner, rather than later, and perhaps get people to stop killing in his name? Or to get people to stop sacrificing animals in his name?
Again, words are only words. I don’t kill people over my belief in fictional book characters. Do you honestly think this is worse than killing?
Steve, You’re a cooler dude than you or I seem to admit. :=)
Race Relations
Mohammed Ali, haven’t there been other minority presidents in other countries previous to Obama? Btw, what you said about anti-white policies in Oberia struck me. I have the very unique position that there is no reason to have ingratiating policies towards white pople in Africa. If discrimination against whites is legalised there, then there is a whole world for white people in North America and Europe. I feel that it is a moot point. It seems so often that the white presense in Africa is a hangover from the colonialist days, anyway, so I really do not ave any sympathy for htme. My view is that they should go home where they came from, even if that home was left by their parents or grandparents several decades ago. Why not let Africa be the haven for black people; and why not lend our assistance to the development of the African people as part of the West’s reparations for the criminal slave trade and colonisation?
Shirley: As you know, the Q’uran defines four types of Jihad; Jihad of the heart (interior struggle for righteousness), of the tongue and hands (speech and action for just purposes), and the problematic Jihad of the sword (conversion of infidels by the sword). It’s this last type that needs to be re-defined. It should be remembered that Jihad of the sword is a Q’uranic doctrine that, at the time of the writing of the Q’uran, corresponded exactly with the practices of the Christian Byzantine Empire, which converted ‘infidels’ to Christianity by the sword, a practice which continued for about a thousand years. One might justifiably argue that the Muslim Jihad of the sword was a response to this Christian practice. However, Christians have of course abandoned forced conversion, and it’s high time that Muslims ( yes, the Imams and scholars) reinterpret the Q’uranic Jihad of the sword so that it can never again be used to justify violent insanity in the world.
Muslim teaching, in other words, is in some respects very overdue for adaptation to the modern world.
As for your comments about Whites in Africa, I have to say that I find them both uninformed, heartless and stupid.
I am a White South African and I can assure you that no country in Europe or the Americas will admit African Whites without the same emigration criteria as apply to Blacks. African Whites belong in Africa, where they have been for centuries. We cannot reverse history to suit your theories about who belongs where. If Whites are discriminated against in Africa, that is a human rights violation as worthy of the world’s (and your) disapproval as any other human rights violation anywhere else in the world.
Blimey, weren’t you the one going on some time ago about generalization being racism? And now you’re taking a blatantly anti-White racist stance against Whites in Africa! You need to revise your view and get informed about what is really going on down here.
“You are not even a Muslim, much less a Muslim scholar. Why should you be considered any kind of authority on what are the beliefs and teachings of Islam, especially as concerns jihad and which version of jihad is emphasised in Islam?”
I do not care what it says in the book, I am merely pointing out that the Qur’an is regarded as the literal word of god, which is a fact. I also remind you that your religion is the ONLY ONE carrying out terrorist attacks in its name and justifying it by reference to Jihad. Sorry if reality bothers you but there it is. I, for the last time, do not care what your imaginary allah thinks or says or does. I care only that his followers are SLAUGHTERING INNOCENTS EVERY SINGLE DAY, yes every single day – today: http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=12827 . The only possible explanation is religion – they are not poor or uneducated, they attack us even when we are not overseas, they OPENLY STATE they are doing it for religious reasons. Thus, the only possible conclusion, seeing as how all of you think cartoons of mohammed are more offensive than 8-year olds strapped with bombs and blown up, is that Jihad is regarded as a justified use of violence as long as it is directed at us Kaffir. Perhaps you disagree, but, as your friend Bashir Rahim admits, you are in the minority. Maybe you would like to refer back to your book and see its instructions (the literal words of god) in reference to unbelievers: http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=simple&q1=unbeliever&size=First+100
Wow that sounds so nice…
“Today, the added quid-pro-quo is the qualifications for the call to jihad in that only the Imam/Caliph (both Sunni & Shia), or a council of the majority of scholars (Sunni) can cal for it.”
Your choice of evidence previously (Desai) was saying violent Jihad in Israel is fine. Does he not know his own religion also, lol?
“How do I look hypocritical? Please show me where I was against that rice strain. I never said anything about it. I’m not against it, skeptical, yes, but not against it. I have not voiced my opinion at all about it… You must be thinking of another user.”
You are or are not anti-GM? The rice strain is genetically modified, with another gene from rice plants. This is why i think the anti-GM stance needs to be modified, for there is zero reason to be against said strain and many others. Be against Bt protein splicing (since it comes from bacteria and can at least be regarded as unnatural, though since it is currently sprayed on organic crops one has to wonder why you guys are anti-GM at all but for organic…) but pick and choose your battles, do not write off the entire technology.
“Muslim teaching, in other words, is in some respects very overdue for adaptation to the modern world.”
Exactly. The issue becomes more important when countries like Iran could have access to nuclear weapons. It only takes a couple of people to slaughter millions now, and they get their inspiration from Islam.
“Why not let Africa be the haven for black people; and why not lend our assistance to the development of the African people as part of the West’s reparations for the criminal slave trade and colonisation?”
Because thats racist first off. Secondly, why is the Arab world not asked to pay reparations, considering they have been at slavery for a longer period of time?
Oh, Shirley, could you please explain to me how this article matches up with your views on Islam: http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/749096/britains-slide-into-dhimmocracy.thtml
It certainly matches up with mine 100% – wherever Islam is in control you find intolerance taking over.
Tino:
Can you please post my longer one, or at least tell me why it is not allowed so I can alter it?
The post was caught in the spam filter. Often lengthy posts and/or posts with links are caught up. I have approved it for you.
Much appreciated sir!
Donovan,
You are right about the fact that I formed my views in the absence of information about the history of the white presence in Africa. I also recognise them as racist views and see them as the abberation from my general views against racism. And yes, it does feel odd to have both sentiments in one emotional house. Hopefully as I gain more experience in this world and meet or dialogue with more people, my emotions will follow my mind.
Your reference to four types of jihad is variant from the presentation given by Islamic scholarship, though it is well-researched and a convenient way of approaching the topic. Thank you. The way that we distinguish between the kinds of jihad is to present a jihad akbar and a jihad asghar, or greater jihad and lesser jihad. Jihad akbar is the internal struggle for good and against wrong. Jihad asghar is an external struggle. The other three forms of jihad to which you referred serve as a requisite lead-up to combative jihad, in the case that other requisite conditions for the validity of jihad asghar exist. One should note at this point that Islam does not allow one to force conversion to Islam at swordpoint. It is worth pointing out that I view the 711 offensive against Spain to have been morally offensive and lacking any religious validity, regardless of how nicely people might have got along afterwards. It is also worth pointing out that those misguided souls who follow Osama bin Laden’s teachings will vehemently and vocally disagree with my perspective, based on their source of mis-education in Islam.
I feel that if traditional Islamic teaching were made more broadly available to Muslims around the world, support for bin Laden and his type would wane. Not only would the concept of jihad be better understood, but the fact that the legitimacy of any modern combative jihad is slim at best, and only in the Sunni Muslim world. But most of all, they would be distracted from jihad asghar by jihad akbar, according to which they would be performing daily spiritual exercises to increase their sincerity of belief and practise, keeping up their worship, reading and studying the Qur’an, and interacting with their families and religious communities. Militant extremists would becom the outdated fad that is looked down on in the same way that illegal drug use is depricated. Such traditional Islamic teaching does exist. However, it lacks the extreme funding that the salafists have because of Saudi Arabia’s oil wealth. And much as Saudi Arabia might claim that it does not support or fund such extremist views, the fact that it funds salafist missions links its funding instrinsically to the dissemination of extremist and militant teachings. I would like to see the fading of the salafist sect and the reabsorption of its followers into mainstream traditional Islam.
No matter how much we go on and on and on about the finer distinctions of the various meanings of Jihad, I still think that a simple formula would suffice to restore the world’s trust in Islam: to wit, Jihad should never be practised with the intention of harming others. If that cannot be said roundly by any Muslim, I would not be able to trust their spirituality. For me, the essential value of religious life is that it trains one to honour the life and wellbeing of the other, even if the other is one’s enemy. That is what it means to be fully human, and religion should function to make us fully human.
And, if it hasn’t yet been done, I think that the most respected Imams in the world should stand up as one council and not only condemn the practices of the salafists, but should actually excommunicate them and deny them the right to call themselves Muslims and to pray and to perform Hajj etc etc.
This will not only help others to gain respect for Islam, but will give to authentic Muslims a new basis for credibility. It must be very hard, after all, always to have to argue and fight to demonstrate to others by all sorts of finicky arguments that one’s religion is a way of compassion and mercy. Much easier if your religion says out straight : harming others, even your enemies, is immoral.
Donovan puts it much more eloquently and peacefully than I can, agree with what he said. That is exactly what will need to be done before I ever trust Islam again. I think especially denying Hajj and excommunication would be good steps.
Tino,
You’ve been using words and expressions that appear to be very prejudiced and hateful. Is there some bad experience that you have had with Muslims?
Bashir Rahim did indeed refer to a majority vs minority dichotomy. Here is his quote: “The Muslims were led to believe, and many still do, that taking up arms for any cause of muslims was a jihad… The views expressed by the Shi’ah ‘ulemah were unheeded if not dismissed… The majority distanced themselves from the true meaning of jihad…” He is referring to Shia Muslims as the minority; and naturally our teachings on jihad would be the teachings of the minority.
The reason that I feel that the view of combative jihad as lesser jihad is the majority view is because this is the teaching not only of Shia Islam, but also of the four schools of thought (madhhabs) of Sunni Islam. Only the extremist salafists who
have broken away from traditional Sunni Islam consider combative jihad to be the greater jihad. The reason that a majority of lay-Muslims today consider combative jihad to be the “jihad akbar” is because of the wide dissemination of the teachings of the minority. The scholars of traditional Sunni Islam, as well as the scholars of Shia Islam, all affirm that the “jihad akbar” is the “jihad an-nafs.”
I also initially thought that Mufti Desai advocated combative jihad in Palestine. However, he has been reticent to validate one’s going to the Middle East to fight against Israel. For example, he once advised someone, “We do accept that the Jihaad in Palestine is a true Jihaad. However, don’t allow your emotions to overcome your common sense.” He also referred indirectly to the fact that many Palestinian groups are purely nationalist resistance fighters who do not wish to impose Islamic law in any established Palestinian state and used that reference to discourage a questioner from going over: “In Palestine, there are many groups. Those fighting to establish Islam are undertaking a correct Shar`ee Jihaad. Those who do not have Islam as their aim are Munafiqeen. Their harm to Islam is even greater than that of Israel.” Finally, he disadvised another quesitoner from going to Palestine to fight because of the chaotic situation there: “The Palestinian people are making every possible effort to do that but are faced with many obstacles. From the apparent situation there, it is unlikely that your physical presence there may make any signification difference. We, therefore, advise you assist in any other way.” So no, it does not appear that Mufti Desai is advocating combative jihad in Palestine.
Donovan,
From what I have read on the topic, combative jihad is supposed to be a defensive device. That’s the generality of it, at least. I really do appreciate your advice to exommunicate the salafists. I think that the world would be much safer for non-Muslims and for Muslims if traditional Muslim scholars were to declare them infidels. My mind is always making “what-if” lists when I come across or think up ideas that I like. One of thsoe what-ifs here is what if those affected by salafist teachings are so offended at the excommunication that, rather than join mainstream Islam, they declare their sect to be the true Islam, excommunicate us, and carry on picking up adherents and using big oil money to fund their proselytisation efforts? Is there a substantial chance of that happening? What might people in general, as well as Muslims in particular do to combat or prevent such a situation?
Btw, where might a person find reading material online regarding black-white co-operative initiatives in South Africa?
“Is there some bad experience that you have had with Muslims?”
Yeah quite a few – 9/11, london bombing, madrid bombing, 1993 WTC, USS Cole, many US embassy bombings, danish embassy bombing, strapping bombs to 8 year olds, strapping bombs to mentally handicapped women, virulent hatred of Jews, Daniel Pearl/other journalists, protesting cartoons/teddy bears instead of terror attacks, I mean the list is honestly endless at this point. It also shows no signs of stopping.
“because of the wide dissemination of the teachings of the minority.”
How does this possibly happen without the silent consent of the majority or at least their indifference – which is further backed up by the lack of them doing ANYTHING to stop it even now.
“Those fighting to establish Islam are undertaking a correct Shar`ee Jihaad.”
Hamas fights to establish Islam, so does Al Qaeda. Thus, by his words, they are in a correct Jihad.
“From the apparent situation there, it is unlikely that your physical presence there may make any signification difference. We, therefore, advise you assist in any other way.””
As in monetarily/materially assist. Or did you actually think he meant assist with negotiations?
As for being hateful I do not think so. I am angry, furious even, at the fact that we can sit here and debate theory/theology all day long but what really matters is that people are dying everyday because of your religion (this is a statement of fact, not opinion). The sooner Islam rises up and stops it the sooner I can believe in moderate Muslims. There is currently not one other religion that acts in the way Islam does.
For example, are you familiar with the “Piss Christ” ‘artwork’ and the feces covered virgin mary? No one died, because Christians PEACEFULLY protested it. Could you even imagine such art in reference to Mohammed? So many people would die I cannot even imagine putting a number on it. Your religion has serious problems, that is reality.
“One of thsoe what-ifs here is what if those affected by salafist teachings are so offended at the excommunication that, rather than join mainstream Islam, they declare their sect to be the true Islam, excommunicate us, and carry on picking up adherents and using big oil money to fund their proselytisation efforts? Is there a substantial chance of that happening? What might people in general, as well as Muslims in particular do to combat or prevent such a situation?”
Sounds fine to me, then we can ID exactly who needs to meet Allah personally. If Muslims separate the bad from the good we can finally stop tip-toeing around who the enemy is.
Shirley, just read the daily South African newspapers. The whole of South Africa is a zone of cooperation between white and black South Africans, otherwise it would be hell to live here, which it aint.
Then read about Zimbabwe where the whites were dispossessed and forced out, and where it now is so hellish that black zimbabweans (3 million of them) have fled to South Africa where the rotten whites have at least sustained an economy and functional infrastructure that makes it possible for black refugees from all over Africa to find a ‘haven’ here.
If I were to want to establish a haven for blacks, the last place I would suggest would be Africa, and most blacks would agree with me on that one.
Donovan,
What is your perspective on why the land switches in Zimbabwe have resulted in a failed agriculture? How might black Africans gain more land sovereignty without lsing out on agricultural potential? Is the land switch policy the only thing that Mugabe has done to ruin Zimbabwe? I know that he has devastated the country, but it seems that no-one feels the need to explain beyond that. I really don’t think that whites are intrinsicaly better famers than blacks. There must be something else going on.