10
Sep
08

BBC Special Debate in LA

I’m at the Skirball Cultural Center to host the first of the BBC’s special debates building up the US election. You can listen to it live here at 0300gmt on Wednesday. Check here for pictures, blog updates and the latest on the BBC bus. You’re welcome to post comment on this page on any the issues we discuss (here are your suggestions). We’ll be getting our teeth into what Americans want from their next President, and what the rest of the world wants from America.


78 Responses to “BBC Special Debate in LA”


  1. September 10, 2008 at 00:51

    I will try to listen, Ros 😀

  2. 2 Kelsie in Houston
    September 10, 2008 at 01:31

    Podcast it, please!!!!!

    I wish I could make it to Dallas for your visit to Texas 😦

  3. 3 Dennis @ OCC
    September 10, 2008 at 01:35

    i wish you and the team could come to Syracuse, New York…..

    😦

    Dennis

  4. 4 steve
    September 10, 2008 at 01:38

    ARGH! YOU ARE SKIPPING DC! Just because it has 3 electoral votes???? Virginia is supposed to be a battleground state.

  5. 5 Vijay Srao in Chattarnagar India
    September 10, 2008 at 03:55

    What I want the next US President(as well as the Congress and Senate) to do is to ABOLISH farm subsidies and import TARIFFS on Agricultural products so third world farmers can earn a living.
    Since agriculture is very important in developing countries if people can not make a living they might pick up a gun(uzbekistan,pakistan)or migrate to wealthier countries(West Africa,India)or grow narcotics(Afghanistan ,Burma Colombia and Bolivia)
    The EU shares the blame.
    The Doha development round of the WTO(GATT) specifically is an imperative.
    Agriculture is not important in real terms in the western developed world however it is the only thing for billions of people in the third world.

    (

  6. September 10, 2008 at 04:05

    Ros,

    Is the debate at Skirball open to the public?

    Could you ask Congressman Campbell what his thoughts are with regard to the influence of the pro-Israel lobby (AIPAC, JINSA, PNAC, etc.) on the US political system and media as conveyed in the Mearsheimer/Walt book (‘The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy’ – see http://www.israellobbybook.com) and in former Republican Congressman Paul Findley’s ‘They Dare to Speak Out’ book which is shown via the link of the cover at following URL?:

    http://neoconzionistthreat.blogspot.com/2008/09/talking-about-israel-lobby-with-brig.html

    Additional about the Mearsheimer/Walt book at the following URL:

    http://www.warwithoutend.co.uk/zone0/viewtopic.php?t=49800

    Why aren’t we talking about the Israeli connection to the Georgia-Russia situation as conveyed in the following Washington Times article by Arnaud de Deborchgrave?:

    Thursday, September 4, 2008
    COMMENTARY: Israel of the Caucasus?
    Arnaud de Borchgrave
    COMMENTARY:

    http://www.warwithoutend.co.uk/zone0/viewtopic.php?p=487313&sid=1ec523a6a5af2e680334613dd89d22e0#487313

  7. September 10, 2008 at 04:15

    Ros,

    Why aren’t we discussing the Israeli association with Georgia as Arnaud de Borchgrave conveyed in the recent commentary piece for the Washington Times?:

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/sep/04/israel-of-the-caucasus/

    Thursday, September 4, 2008
    COMMENTARY: Israel of the Caucasus?
    Arnaud de Borchgrave
    COMMENTARY:

    —————————————

    http://NEOCONZIONISTTHREAT.COM

  8. 8 Dave in Boston
    September 10, 2008 at 04:22

    To your guest that parrotted the Republican line saying Senator Obama has never passed an important piece of legislation I draw your attention to an article by Associated Press writer Jim Kuhnhenn during the RNC in which he compared Governor Palin’s claims and reality;

    PALIN: “I have protected the taxpayers by vetoing wasteful spending … and championed reform to end the abuses of earmark spending by Congress. I told the Congress ‘thanks but no thanks’ for that Bridge to Nowhere.”

    THE FACTS: As mayor of Wasilla, Palin hired a lobbyist and traveled to Washington annually to support earmarks for the town totaling $27 million. In her two years as governor, Alaska has requested nearly $750 million in special federal spending, by far the largest per-capita request in the nation. While Palin notes she rejected plans to build a $398 million bridge from Ketchikan to an island with 50 residents and an airport, that opposition came only after the plan was ridiculed nationally as a “bridge to nowhere.”

    PALIN: “There is much to like and admire about our opponent. But listening to him speak, it’s easy to forget that this is a man who has authored two memoirs but not a single major law or reform – not even in the state senate.”

    THE FACTS: Compared to McCain and his two decades in the Senate, Obama does have a more meager record. But he has worked with Republicans to pass legislation that expanded efforts to intercept illegal shipments of weapons of mass destruction and to help destroy conventional weapons stockpiles. The legislation became law last year. To demean that accomplishment would be to also demean the work of Republican Sen. Richard Lugar of Indiana, a respected foreign policy voice in the Senate. In Illinois, he was the leader on two big, contentious measures in Illinois: studying racial profiling by police and requiring recordings of interrogations in potential death penalty cases. He also successfully co-sponsored major ethics reform legislation.

  9. 9 Bob in Queensland
    September 10, 2008 at 04:32

    How about a quick show of hands for your rather vocal audience: “Does America really care about the image (positive or negative) their country has in the world?”

  10. 10 Theodorah McKenna
    September 10, 2008 at 04:39

    Of the many differences I have seen in the two Presidential candidates, one is the way they speak of others. I find Senator Obama to be consistenly respectful and inclusive, whereas Senator McCain often uses a tone of disdain. I believe respect and genuine attempts to listen, understand, and collaborate, are crucial in both foreign and domestic relations in the 21st Century. Senator Obama’s experience as a Community Organizer, which was ridiculed at the Republican National Convention, quite honestly make him a fair better candidate for President. What we don’t need is a hothead. In addition, we need a President who understands how much harder life has gotten for low and middle class families in the last several years. I don’t think McCain gets it at all.

  11. 11 Don
    September 10, 2008 at 04:40

    Which presidential candidate has a better track record of keeping their promises. Obama and Mccain both make promises but which one will actually get us anywhere? Obama promises a lot of great sounding ideas that sound like it will cost us taxpayers a lot of money. I am willing to pay higher taxes if it will bring a lasting improvement to our society.

  12. September 10, 2008 at 04:40

    The economy of the USA is in a shamble. The obssession of the US administration of lower taxes for the top 5% of tha ntion is in my view unpatriotic since we are not starving them and turning them into creatures of misery. Their lifestyle is still not affectled.
    After hearing that people are going to vote again for the Neocons after 8 years of mess and Bushitism, I believe i is itme to invest in Education and Skills!
    I find it amazing that the more the Neocons failed in the economy, they tend to susbsidisy the top 5% of the nation when their businesses run into troubles like recently with Fannie and Fredie.
    Time to save for the future of our children and grand children not to spend, spend and more spending on the diculuous.
    Regards,
    Nouri

  13. September 10, 2008 at 04:50

    Re: Immigration

    How are the US going to repatriate 12 million people? And at whose cost?

  14. 14 Mayson Lancaster
    September 10, 2008 at 04:56

    When is the press going to start doing its job? When will they start calling the Republicans for their lies?

  15. 15 Bob in Queensland
    September 10, 2008 at 05:26

    Frankly both parties are guilty of lies and negative campaigning.

    I find THIS SITE very useful for keeping things honest.

    Bob

  16. 16 Brian Larson
    September 10, 2008 at 05:44

    @ Vijay, (California accent style), DUDE!, BINGO, you got it! The ethanol mandate and other farm subsides are inflating food prices worldwide! US and EU realize your subsides to rich land owners are depriving million, nay, billions of desperately needed income. US and EU political “ding-dongs” wake up, the vast majority of the poor in this world are grain farmers and your subsides to a politically favored group are depriving them and their families of a living income!
    P.S. I hope McCain will stop these subsides! Obama forget it.

  17. 17 Brian Larson
    September 10, 2008 at 05:57

    Why did you pick LA, land of the ephemeral? Looking for a media job? Next time go to Bakersfield, like it or not, this is where America really is.

  18. 18 Brian Larson
    September 10, 2008 at 06:21

    OK, 1/3 of geographical California is in Mexico. California has always been mixed, asian, hispanic, anglo. We don’t even give it a second thought. Who cares?
    California has always been ditsy, a boom and bust economy, gold rush, original land rush, dot com bust, housing bust. That is California, LA LA land. Creativity, destruction, creativity again. We embrace change, reject convention. That is our strength and weakness. Come to California and become whatever you want!

  19. 19 bob pletts
    September 10, 2008 at 07:05

    turn the big hose on
    find the Higgs Boson

  20. 20 Per Carlsson
    September 10, 2008 at 07:47

    There’s far too much talk about Palin; anyone would think she was the one running against Obama! I’m afraid that the more the Democrats focus on her, the more it energizes the Republicans. The Democrats need to suck the oxygen out of her fire by refocusing on McCain, and relegating her to the backseat of the ticket.

  21. 21 Sherie M. - California
    September 10, 2008 at 08:37

    AIPAC wasted no time in getting a meeting with Sarah Palin. Quite the feat too since she has otherwise been unavailable. It has even been noted on C-Span.

    Check it out for yourselves:

    http://rnc08.c-span.org/?p=2161

    Huh. Makes you wonder how they pulled that one off.

  22. 22 Rose
    September 10, 2008 at 08:46

    Sarah Palin and AIPAC blog makes it on C-SPAN Convention Hub blog

    http://rnc08.c-span.org/?p=2161

  23. 23 Bryan
    September 10, 2008 at 08:48

    You people really need to keep up. Walt and Mearsheimer have been exposed as frauds, behaving like partisan journalists rather than academics and misquoting and distorting the words of Israeli leaders to make their case that Israel is the bad guy. They should hang their heads in shame:

    http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=7&x_issue=21&x_article=1446

    AIPAC had a meeting with Sarah Palin? How extraordinary. What is that supposed to prove?

  24. 24 Sherie M. - California
    September 10, 2008 at 09:03

    Bryan, it is extraordinary because she’s been off limits to other organizations. But of course AIPAC is the lobby like no other and had to be assured they would have her in their backpocket too..

  25. 25 Bryan
    September 10, 2008 at 09:38

    Rose September 10, 2008 at 8:46 am,

    When you conduct a propaganda campaign with your friends, you should at least make sure that you don’t duplicate the propaganda a few minutes apart on the same blog. We have James correcting Rachel Catran’s link a few comments up and now you parroting Sherie M. Makes you all look silly, as if you can’t think for yourselves.

    How about actually entering into a debate here? We could discuss the relative power and influence of the Israel lobby against the Arab lobby and how that impacts America’s foreign policy. The Arab lobby is quite impressive when you think about it. The Arabs have transformed their unprovoked attacks on Israel during the wars of 1948 to 2006 and their brutal terrorist slaughter of Israeli civilians into “defence” against “Israeli aggression” – and actually got most of the world to believe that fantasy. They have done everything they can to ensure that the Palestinians remain in “refugee camps” as a thorn in Israel’s side and turned the blame onto Israel for the Palestinians’ plight. They have created UNRWA – the UN “refugee” agency devoted to assisting the Palestinians alone and with no time limit on Palestinians being “refugees.” They have practically the entire UN General Assembly voting with them for endless anti-Israel resolutions and they have got much of the Western media jumping through their hoops like trained circus animals.

    And you concentrate on the “Israel lobby?!”

  26. September 10, 2008 at 09:57

    Bryan,

    CAMERA is a known truth distorting propaganda organ of the pro-Israel lobby – see the following article to see how the head of JINSA was the head of CAMERA as well:

    http://www.rense.com/general18/JINSA.htm

    Additional about CAMERA mentioned at the following URL:

    http://www.wrmea.com/archives/junejuly2002/0206018.html

    Colin Powell even conveyed that the JINSA crowd was/is control of the Pentagon for Washington Post correspondent Karen DeYoung’s bio book about him (simply look up ‘JINSA – Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs – in the index):

    http://neoconzionistthreat.blogspot.com/2008/08/dont-let-neocon-agenda-get-us-into.html

  27. 27 Bryan
    September 10, 2008 at 10:02

    Sherie M. – California September 10, 2008 at 9:03 am,

    You want us to believe nobody apart from AIPAC is allowed to talk to the future VP? Who are these organisations that are “off-limits?” Hamas? Hezbollah?

  28. 29 Jessica in NYC
    September 10, 2008 at 11:45

    Ros,

    I’ll be listening!

    Please podcast and keep updating the pics. The bus is funny looking, looks like the BBC got an American make over. LOL

  29. 30 Lubna
    September 10, 2008 at 13:46

    Hello to my Precious friends Rose, James, Rachael, and Sherie, and a very warm welcome to the four of you guys from Baghdad… Well guys, any human brain, even with only one single neuron functioning adequately, can NEVER deny that all American presidents and also all American presidential candidates regardless of their backgrounds are just like helpless, sweet, and shy little girls infront of Israel, period… With my love… Yours forever, Lubna in Baghdad…

  30. September 10, 2008 at 13:49

    If you want to talk real life politics or the future of the world you must include the past to find the future.
    My name is Phillip F Tourney survivor of the brutal murder of my shipmates by the govrment of Israel June 8 1967, I am also three time president of the USS Liberty Veterans and combat wounded veteran.
    If the attack on our ship is so cut and dry as a case of mistake in idenity how come Israel and the United States are so affariad to talk about this piece of history? Why did Israel jam our radios why did they attack us when they said they new we were in the area and American?
    Why are all related papers to this mass murder TOP SECREAT even today 41 years after the attack? Why are the survivors called names jew haters nazis and the such when all we want is the truth to come out we did not murder anyone Israel did all the murdering when they new we were an a American ship.
    Explain that to the America explain the sinking of our life rafts to insure no survivors were to survive a flat out war cime one of many Israel commited that day and must be held accountable for there evil deeds.
    Israel gets a pass from our bought and paid for congress by AIPAC, ADL,and many othewr Israel firsters in the land of the Brave and the Home of the Free.
    No one should be allowed to murder Americans on the high seas and get bt with it not even Israel the truth will over come the lies of the past the survivors will see to that that isnt a threat it is a fact. Phil Tourney Liberty Survivor

  31. 32 steve
    September 10, 2008 at 14:00

    @ Phil

    If Israel was trying to insure there were no survivors, why were there survivors, including you?

    What are you thoughts in the USS Stark attack? Do you forgive Iraq? They hit the stark with 2 missiles, killing many US sailors. Why is that solved and settled. Because the attacker’s name is spelled IRAQ instead of ISRAEL?

    What would Israel have to gain from attacking an ally? Why would the US agree to cover it up without going into conspriacies that the Jews run America?

  32. September 10, 2008 at 14:18

    I can tell you why the survivors were spared because of an incorrect meassage that help was on the way and that drove off the attacking air craft that was sent there to finesh us off. There were over 800 canon and rocket holes in our ship a 40×40 foot hole in our starboard side from an toperdo tens of thousands of fifty caliber armor piercing bullets in our ship.
    Belive me they were trying to murder us all remember they shot our life rafts out of the water what dose that tell you?Why did our goverment order us never to speak of the attack under penalty of prison or death stright from orders by John Mc Cain Admiral Jr.USN relayed to us by Admiral Isacc Kidd?
    As I said before if this attack is so easy to explain away lets do it in an open debate in front of congress the Survivors have nothing to hide and we are not liars like Israel and the Goverment of the USA.
    Israel and this goverment can”t handel the truth.
    Phillip F Tourney Survivor
    Three time President Liberty Veterans
    Co Host the Liberty Hour
    Evey Saturday at 0900 am MST on republicbroadcasting.org

  33. 34 steve
    September 10, 2008 at 14:24

    @ Phil

    Is it possible that if they thought you were an Egyptian ship, they were trying to kill you because they thought you were the enemy, like in every other war?

    There’s lot of damage in attacks, like in every other war as well. On the HMS Hood, there were only three survivors and it was the UK’s largest battlecruiser of all time, only three survived. The germans were trying to kill them because they were Germany’s enemy. There are friendly fire attacks all the time. It’s a shame, but it happens.

    I ask you, what did Israel have to gain by deliberately attacking the Liberty, and why would the US engage in a coverup of this?

  34. September 10, 2008 at 15:18

    OK steve let me try this one more time Israel had made a postive ID on our ship many hours before the slaughter of American souls. They new we were the Liberty AGTR5 American, Israel has addmited they new we were American and friendly no friendly fire here only on purpose fire.
    They wanted to sink us fast blame it on one of the Arab states and bring the USA into the war peroid. The US goverment was in on this from the get go thats why they recalled the rescue aircraft but we did not sink only from the grace of God so we may tell the truth of the real facts.
    Israel and the US wanted complete control of the middel east and they would have gotten it if our ship went down.
    Thats why we are in this war now all for the sake of Israel don”t you get it Steve Israel controls the congress and the President of this Goverment we sure as hell don”t were the ones who put thease cowads in office and they do the bidding of the ADL, AIPAC, thats a fact. We need money in this country we should not give Israel not one more dime along with all the other free loaders in the world if they want money go earn it. Lets take care of America first and foremost. If Israel wants war let them fight there own wars leave America out of it. Phil

  35. 36 steve
    September 10, 2008 at 15:26

    @ Phil

    Sorry if I don’t believe you, but I don’t. If the US didn’t want its own ship there, and the US wanted to take over the middle east in 1967 (recall that US-Israel relaions only became close in 1973, France was Israel’s arms suppliers), the US could have ordered it’s own ship out. So instead of ordering the ship out of the waters, the US and Israel agree to destroy the American ship? I don’t think so.

    Yeah yeah, Israel controls the US… Actually the american public elected the government, but you think Israel put them in power. Intesting.

    Could we get your opinion on who conducted 9/11?

  36. 37 Mulumba
    September 10, 2008 at 15:36

    America’s next President should do away The Hypocricy that is embedded in America’s foreign policy, One Kiligramme should be 1000 grames when dealing with all stake holders. not 1500 grames when dealing with Israel and 300 grames when dealing with Iran

  37. September 10, 2008 at 16:03

    James,

    Moderators note. If you post a link you risk getting auto-sorted to the “Spam Bin”. If you publish more then one link, It will defiantly get sorted to the “SPAM Bin”. I recovered the ones that seemed not to be a repeat, and they are awaiting approval. The links will have to be checked out for content. You would not believe the amount of spam WHYS gets. some of them can be pretty crafty and seem to be ligit.

  38. September 10, 2008 at 17:46

    Thank you for kindly letting me know, dwightofclevland..:)

    PS: Don’t know what we would do in the USA without the BBC and other international media that we can access on the Web..

  39. 40 steve
    September 10, 2008 at 17:46

    It’s kind of funny they are talking to Mexicans about who the US president should be, and making all these demands of Americans in their benefit rather in the benefit of Americans. Do Canadians vote for what’s in the best interest of Americans? Do Mexicans vote for what’s in the best interest of Americans?

    Tear down the wall, don’t deport, the US must fix mexico’s economy.. Right. It’s mexico’s job to fix their economy, not the US.

  40. 41 Sherie M. - California
    September 10, 2008 at 18:46

    FYI
    Hear is a site for very informative documentaries in case anyone would like to brush up on their knowledge.

    There is even a short film on the Israeli Lobby:

    http://freedocumentaries.org/film.php?id=173

    The site has this to say about it as well:
    “This is a well made film. Due to the influence of the lobby, this film could not be filmed by the United States but rather by a news station in the Netherlands. The topic of Israeli influence in the United States is one which faces incredible censorship whenever there is an attempt to discuss it. At the heart of this matter is AIPAC a powerful organization who influences US policy. The Israeli Lobby influence is so strong in both parties that relationship between the US and Israel will probably not change regardless of whether republicans or democrats are elected. If you want to understand U.S. policy in the middle east, you first should understand AIPAC.”

    Check it out for yourselves.

  41. 42 Jonathan
    September 10, 2008 at 18:50

    @Steve

    You could do a little research on the USS Liberty incident, instead of just shooting from the lip and attacking a US Navy veteran, and you will find that the incident is not an invention by some crazed, drooling conspiracy theorists. There’s a consensus by now on the history. It’s in the category of Israel’s acquisition, by questionable means, of a nuclear weapons program around that time: Officially denied, but the facts are pretty well accepted.

    If you genuinely want to find out what Israel had to gain, and why the US would have covered it up, knock yerself out. There’s no shortage of material.

    It’s more than a little bit ironic to see a friend of Israel attack a survivor by saying, oh yeah, well how could you survive then?

    That’s what Holocaust deniers say to Holocaust survivors.

  42. 43 steve
    September 10, 2008 at 18:58

    @ Jonathan

    He said that Israel attacked lifeboats to ensure there were no survivors, yet there were tons of survivors. I asked him about that.

    Jonathan, if it’s not a cospiracy theory, why did Philip say the Us and Israel worked together to destroy the Liberty, when the US could have ordered the liberty out of Egyptian waters? Philip made the accustation that the US was in on it as well. I never got an answer. Why would the US allow Israel to destroy a ship that the US could have ordered to be moved out of Egyptian waters? Which conspiracy site should I got to find out the reasons why Israel would have deliberately attacked a US ship? Remeber, the ship was in the middle of warzone. You guys act like this is the first friendly fire incident in history.

    That’s why I think this is conspiracy mumbo jumbo, especially since Israel is involved. Had any other nation done that, it would have been forgotten, but not when israel makes a mistake.

    Anyone even remember the USS Stark?

  43. 44 Jonathan
    September 10, 2008 at 19:04

    @This page

    I should say that by correcting Steve about the USS Liberty incident, I don’t intend to join, or indicate approval of, the repellent Israel-bashing that for some reason infests this page.

  44. September 10, 2008 at 19:15

    Excellent Dutch documentary on AIPAC, Sherie… Thank you for posting.. Press TV (the Iranian channel in English) did an excellent interview with Dr. Mearsheimer as well via the link at the following URL:

    Must watch interview with John Mearsheimer: Interview with John Mearsheimer author of “The Israel Lobby” (see http://www.israelobbybook.com):

    http://www.presstv.com/Programs/player/?id=58527

  45. 46 Jonathan
    September 10, 2008 at 19:18

    @Steve

    If in fact you are a friend of Israel, you should know that you do her no favors with your angry, offensive tone and your insults.

    Again, if you renuinely want to learn any of this, you may do so. Use your own discretion to distinguish the wacky conspiracy sources from the credible ones. One useful technique for this is to look at sites run by credible news organizations, like the NewYork Times, and/or the Independent, Times, Guardian of England, for a start.

    Or, of course, you can just decline to do any homework, and keep on improvising off the top of your head.

  46. 47 steve
    September 10, 2008 at 19:21

    @ Jonathan

    What insults? Using the word “conspiracy”?

    Again, show me credible proof the US wanted the Liberty Destroyed rather than just ordering it away. That was Philip’s accusation. You’re supporting him, so perhaps you can find me this proof. And I’m sorry, but I’m not going to accept as credible a source like

    zionistcontrolamerica.com or something like that. I can create a blog and write anything I want as well.

    You do the homework, find me a link that it was a deliberate attack, from a credible source, and let me know why the US agreed to have some coverup.

  47. 48 Jonathan
    September 10, 2008 at 19:23

    @Steve

    Does anyone remember the USS Stark?

    Yes. Does it have any relevance whatever to the USS Liberty incident? If so, you haven’t demonstrated it.

    Why did we forgive Iraq for the Stark?

    You can’t be serious.

  48. 49 Jonathan
    September 10, 2008 at 19:31

    @Steve

    No, Steve, it is not my job to educate you.

    It is your job to learn something about a topic before you go mouthing off about it.

    You may of course decline to do your job, and retain a safe distance from the facts,and just keep making stuff up. Your opinions will be received and evaluated accordingly.

  49. 50 steve
    September 10, 2008 at 19:33

    @ Jonathan

    As I figured, you couldn’t find anything from a reputable source. Sorry, but the US government accepted Israel’s apology it was a terrible tragedy, like the USS Stark attack by Iraq. Again, it makes zero sense for Israel to attack a US ship deliberately.

    Please don’t accuse me of making up facts when you can’t provide any.

  50. 51 steve
    September 10, 2008 at 19:34

    @ Jonathan

    Because the USS Stark was another case of friendly fire, that’s why. The US accepted Iraq’s apology and moved on. like it did for Israel.

  51. 52 Jonathan
    September 10, 2008 at 19:57

    @Steve

    Kindly stop telling me that I “can’t find anything” or “can’t provide” any, just because I refuse to spoon-feed you. I didn’t suggest that you talk about this, and my suggestion that if you do talk about it, you might want to learn something about it, does not mean I assume the burden of teaching you.

    The age of Google has made it so very quick and easy to learn that ignorance can only be explained, and maintained, by stubborn determination. Against that, I’m helpless.

  52. 53 Jonathan
    September 10, 2008 at 20:05

    @Steve

    If by “accepted and moved on,” you mean “Started two wars against, and imposed crippling sanctions upon, and finally invaded and occupied,” then yes, I guess you could say that we “accepted Iraq’s apology and moved on.” Or more properly, “moved in.”

    None of which has anything at all to do with the topic at hand, of course.

  53. September 10, 2008 at 20:30

    Boy you guys really are so far in the dark it is hard to belive you say the things you say. Israel did not attack an enemy of there goverment they attacked and mudered 34 American Sailors and Marines in cold blood dose that strike a coard with you at all?You talk of it as no big deal it was a mistake that this happened to American sons at the hands of Israel no big deal. Well it would be a hell of a big deal if it was your brother or dad that just got murdered by Israel.
    Do you think that the Liberty SURVIVORS are so stupid to say what we say with out bullet proof evedence you are living on a differnt planet . We were intrusted with the most secret information this country had at the time and you think that we would put our selfs out there to be caught up in lies just to get even you are nuts if you think that. We have eyewitness accounts of the attack,we have top secreat documents that prove that we are not liars. We have the lawyer that did the board of inquriy that states it is a fabrication nothing but lies all to protect the murders Israel and our goverment. Captain Boston and Admiral Kidd were ordered by Admiral John McCain yes you guest it Senator McCanis dad to LIE and LIE they did.You all are on standing on water I know you cant walk on water so you are sunk you all are dead wrong peroid. And we can prove our case you cant ,sure would like any one that wants to try. How is this the Liberty Veterans will give you ten thousand dollars cash if you can prove that we are not telling the Gods honest truth if this is so easy come on and pick up your ten grand.
    Guess what the ADL, AIPAC, or any other Israel firster has not taken us up on our offer I wounder why? Also if you can collect the ten grand we will pay for air time on any TV or radio station and call ourselves liars. That is one hell of a deal for you guys and gals dosent cost you a penny you put up nothing but your facts against the Liberty crews facts. As I said before no one not even Israel should be allowed to get by with cold blooded premeditated murder of American sons.
    Please try and make us out to be liars we cant wait!!!!
    Phillip F Tourney USS Liberty Survivor

  54. 55 Jonathan
    September 10, 2008 at 20:48

    @Phil

    I don’t think you’re a liar, Phil. The person calling you a liar admits he knows nothing, and refuses to learn anything, about the incident, so you may decide how much attention he deserves.

  55. 56 Jonathan
    September 10, 2008 at 20:51

    @Phil

    If you want to make your case persuasively to those who can’t be bothered to spend half an hour learning it for themselves, you could help yourself by providing, in your comments, links to articles and primary materials from credible sources.

  56. 57 steve
    September 10, 2008 at 20:57

    Jonathan, don’t speak for me.

  57. September 10, 2008 at 21:21

    good job of finding a far left wing university professor to comment on sara palin. contrary to his opinion, she appeals to women throughout the united states, including women who live in california! ros, please try to find one person, who is politically neutral to talk to while on your bus tour!

  58. 59 Sherie M. - California
    September 10, 2008 at 21:28

    Small note please, esp. to the moderators.

    The documentary site link I referenced above is no longer working properly. It takes one to something entirely other.

    I tried a couple times to post a you tube link to the aforementinoned documentary on the Israeli Lobby, but it didn’t take.

    If you find it in your filter, please let it post, it isn’t spam and the documentary is valuable and well done.

    Thanks.

  59. September 10, 2008 at 22:30

    Very good Idea Jonathan I should have done that already go to ussliberty.wordpress.com then go to USS Liberty and it lays out the story as plain as day there is also much more on the site you must take a peak at.
    Good Luck All.
    Phil

  60. 61 Jonathan
    September 10, 2008 at 22:42

    Steve, I didn’t,and I wouldn’t speak for you. Sorry if you’re confused.

  61. 62 Bryan
    September 10, 2008 at 23:05

    Jonathan September 10, 2008 at 7:18 pm

    @Steve

    If in fact you are a friend of Israel, you should know that you do her no favors with your angry, offensive tone and your insults.

    You could not be more wrong. In fact, steve is incisive and to the point. And I think he is remarkably restrained when you consider the anti-Israel and often anti-Semitic garbage that gets scattered all over this site at times, as in the last few days.

    What are Israel supporters supposed to do in the face of the attacks, which you acknowledged as real in another comment?

  62. 63 steve
    September 10, 2008 at 23:07

    @ Phil

    The thing is, I could create a blog and write whatever I wanted on it. I’m not accusing you of making it up, but I cannot consider a blog as a credible source for unbiased information on a subject.

  63. 64 steve
    September 10, 2008 at 23:08

    @ Jonathan
    “The person calling you a liar admits he knows nothing, and refuses to learn anything, about the incident, so you may decide how much attention he deserves.”

    You first said I accused him of being a lawyer, then you said I admit I know nothing.

    If that’s not speaking for me, I don’t know what is. Please try not to do that again.

  64. 65 Sherie M. - California
    September 10, 2008 at 23:43

    Hi.
    I’d like to provide a different link to the documentary I discussed earlier as the original one is not functioning properly.

    This is the Google video for the English version of that Dutch AIPAC documentary (must watch especially for what Lawrence Wilkerson mentions about WW 3 at the end!):

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3994543425032066015&q=&hl=en

    The Israeli Lobby
    For many years now the American foreign policy has been characterized by the strong tie between the United States and Israel. Does the United States in fact keep Israel on its feet? And how long will it continue to do so? A Dutch public broadcast shows insight on the subject.

    One more note, some people are crticizing the use of links in some of the posts. If I may say, in many cases, the links are provided as a support of points made. No one who isn’t interested in viewing them has any obligation or compulsion to follow them.

    Personally, I like links, because they allow me to further evaluate the post. Of course, that’s just my opinion.

  65. September 11, 2008 at 00:34

    In fairness to all of you on this site I must admit that I come on pretty strong about the USS Liberty attack on our ship by the Goverment of Israel because it is true.
    With that being said I have no reason to take out my anger on any one elses opinions however I lived threw it and was close to being killed.
    It haunts me that this sort of stuff goses on between Goverments and they should be held accountable for there actions. I also served two tours of duty Vietnam but that has not scared me like this act of two goverments togerther planning the murder of American Sailors and Marines on the high seas.
    Its like having your parents shoot your brother and sister in the head killing them dead then being told never to speak of this crime.
    The Liberty survivors are not built that way all we have ever asked for is a fair hearing instead of that we get called names like jew haters nazis and on and on we are the not ones that did the killing Israel did and our goverment is covering up for both of them.
    Phil

  66. 67 steve
    September 11, 2008 at 00:39

    @ Phil

    I understand why you would be angry. You were attacked by Israeli planes and naval forces. But mistakes happen. If I were in your shoes, I’d be angry at them too. But unfortunately these things happen, and fortunately, haven’t happened again. It was an absolute tragedy, a completely and total blunder and can’t bring the dead back. But to think the US and Israel collluded to destroy a US ship, rather than order it away, I just can’t accept. Terrible things happens in wars. If you think the LIberty was bad, google the Cap Arcona.

  67. September 11, 2008 at 00:56

    Phil,

    Steve couldn’t care less about such Israeli treachery against America when the rogue state deliberately attacked your ship.. He is a fifth columnist if he is even an American at all.. Founding Father George Washington warned US of his ilk in his warning against having a ‘passionate attachment’ for a foreign country (like Steve has for Israel) which was associated with his ‘Farewell Address’ which is linked at the bottom of http://astandforjustice.org

  68. 69 selena in Canada
    September 11, 2008 at 01:20

    May I remind posters that posts which are too long will not be approved. The desired length of posts is what can fit in the reply window. However, we are all human and slightly longer will slip by. 🙂

    Selena

  69. 70 selena in Canada
    September 11, 2008 at 01:27

    @Sherie

    We have had lengthy discussions about links. There does not seem to be a problem with one or two links.

    Many links in a post sometimes cause the post to end up in spam. But the real reason (my understanding) for less links is we are looking for the opinion of the contributor, not win a debate. Google is always available for anyone who likes to dig deeper.

  70. September 11, 2008 at 02:02

    Another excellent youtube put together by Tom who manages http://representativepress.org and http://neoconzionistthreat.com as well:

    9/11 and Wrong Policy, what the 9/11 Commission Report did to us:

    Here is a tiny URL for the above one:

    http://tinyurl.com/66o2qy

    Courageous anti-Zionist Jew Phil Weiss mentioned Tom in the following blog entry as well:

    Report: ’60 Minutes’ Cut Ahmadinejad’s Statement, ‘Solution Is Democracy’ in Israel/Palestine

    http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2008/09/report-60-minutes-cut-ahmadinejads-statement-solution-is-democracy-in-israelpalestine.html

    Here is a tiny URL for the above one:

    http://tinyurl.com/6faepr

    ——————————————————-

    http://NEOCONZIONISTTHREAT.COM

  71. 72 Jonathan
    September 11, 2008 at 05:12

    @Steve

    I did not say anything about anyone being a lawyer, or accusing anyone of being a lawyer, or anything at all about lawyers. I don’t know what you’re talking about. I’m sorry you’re confused.

  72. 73 Bryan
    September 11, 2008 at 08:17

    Sherie M. – California September 10, 2008 at 11:43 pm

    One more note, some people are crticizing the use of links in some of the posts. If I may say, in many cases, the links are provided as a support of points made. No one who isn’t interested in viewing them has any obligation or compulsion to follow them.

    If you go back over the comments you and your fellow anti-Israel lobbyists have made in the last few days you will find that most of the time links are simply shoved in everyone’s face or quotes pasted directly from them without any “points” being made at all. I couldn’t be bothered with that style of ‘debate’. I’m sure there are sites on the internet where people enjoy sheltering behind the propaganda of others, but I don’t think this is one of them. There is nothing wrong with the occasional link but it seems to me that people are here to debate, not endlessly plough through suspect sites with suspect agendas.

  73. 74 Bryan
    September 11, 2008 at 08:53

    selena in Canada September 11, 2008 at 1:27 am,

    James on September 11, 2008 at 2:02 am proves your point (and mine) about links.

    There is nothing in that ‘comment’ of his, with its excessive links, that relates to any comment anyone has made here. He could cut and paste the same thing to any number of sites on the internet without altering a thing. He probably does. This must be the sixth time I’ve seen his “Zionist threat” link, now posted twice in one comment. Perhaps he is frustrated by the lack of response here to his links. Whatever the case, he is spamming this site.

    Still, he is apparently able to string a sentence or two together, as he proved on September 11, 2008 at 12:56 am with his personal attack on steve, claiming to know all about steve’s motivation.

    Funny how people on the internet become instant experts on the psychology of those they have never met and know nothing about. The tactic is transparent. It says nothing about steve and everything about the style of ‘debate’ James finds it appropriate to indulge in – when he’s not flooding the site with anti-Israel links.

  74. 75 Brian Larson
    September 12, 2008 at 02:19

    1) Israel lobby, yes it is powerful. There are a lot of Jewish folks in the US. Many are very successful and in the media. I doubt if it is a conspiracy just a natural tendency to be concerned for a group you identify with. Conspiracies are really hard to pull off. There is too much reward in disclosing the truth. This is the argument for a diverse free press as a human right. Why we should be suspicious of a governmentally controlled press.
    2) As for the USS Liberty, I remember it being reported as an intelligence gathering vessel that the Israelis heavily damaged as part of the 7 Day War. The Israelis were trying to make sure the US didn’t disclose their military actions. It was presented to the public as a mistake at the time, but was later found to be deliberate.
    3) As for meetings AIPAC with Sarah Palin, of course, they’re shopping for votes.
    4) I don’t known if everyone is aware but some fundamentalist Christians believe in an interpretation the Book of Revelations, which foretells of the reestablishment of the nation of Israel as a precursor to the biblical End of Days. So, some fundamentalists have a natural affinity to the state of Israel and see its reestablishment as god’s will.

    Personally, I think it is tragic that the Palestinians are paying for all this. If only coexistence could be achieved, I’m sure Europe, North America, Australasia and the arab world, among many others, would be glad to make Palestinian lands super prosperous. The areas the BBC bus is visiting now was a wasteland.

  75. 76 steve
    September 12, 2008 at 02:26

    @ Brian

    According to who was the Liberty attack now “found to be deliberate”?

    If I look online, i typically find hate sites talking about the liberty. David Duke sure has a lot to say about it. So do lots of islamist sites, as well as conspiracy type sites. The US accepted Israel’s apology for the tragic error. Why would the US cover it up? Remember, the US and Israel weren’t very close in 1967. The Us and Israel only become close during the 1973 war. Israel was much closer to european powers until the arab oil embargo of 1973.

  76. 77 RobRoy
    September 12, 2008 at 04:56

    Steve says: Remember, the US and Israel weren’t very close in 1967.

    Well, I guess Truman who gave Israel statehood in 1948 doesn’t count by your dubious standards, huh?

    He also allowed 100,000 displaced Jews into Palestine in 1946.

  77. 78 Bryan
    September 12, 2008 at 11:20

    RobRoy, it seems that you get your history from textbooks for Palestinian schoolchildren.

    Truman did not “give” Israel statehood, something he had no power to do in any case. He recognised Israel as a state. Two completely different things. And he did not “allow 100,000 displaced Jews into Palestine in 1946.” He recommended it based on a report he received on the appalling conditions of Jews in camps after the Holocaust.

    In 1946 Palestine was obviously still under British control and they rejected the recommendation, since they were cuddling up to the Arabs out of oil interests and ideological sympathy. The British stuck grimly to the provisions of their “White Paper” and only allowed a small trickle of Jews in.

    US support for Israel is not unconditional and never has been. And for the first few decades it was ambivalent, to say the least.


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