08
Sep
08

You shall go to the Skirball

There was a time earlier today when I thought I may never stop watching Monster Buck Moments on ESPN. Fortunately for all concerned I’ve recovered my poise. On Wednesday at 0300GMT, I’m hosting the first of three special BBC debates ahead of the US elections live from the Skirball Cultural Center in LA (you can listen live here). It’s not a WHYS, but don’t think that let’s you off getting involved. Here are the details and the confirmed guests, and we’re looking for issues to discuss.

We’re not setting any boundaries for the kind of questions we’ll discuss, so if there’s an issue you’d like to raise, post it here and I’ll do my best to get you some answers.

CONFIRMED GUESTS

Tom Campbell
Former Republican congressman, who recently stepped down as Dean of Haas Business School at University of California. Has opened an exploratory committee to run for Governor of California in 2010.

Kantathi Suphamongkhon
Foreign minister of Thailand until September 2006. Now Senior Fellow at the Burkle Center for International Relations.

Martha de la Torre
She co-founded El Clasificado, a free Spanish-language weekly that publishes classified adverts and educational editorial articles for the LA Latino community. She was Hispanic Business Woman of the Year in 2000. Her family came to the US from Ecuador in the 1950s.

Richard Schiff
Played Toby Ziegler in the West Wing and campaigns for the Democrats. He supported Joe Biden in the primaries.


120 Responses to “You shall go to the Skirball”


  1. September 8, 2008 at 07:03

    Dear Ros,

    It is open to the public for anyone already in Los Angeles?

  2. 2 Pangolin- California
    September 8, 2008 at 07:51

    Here’s my question. Worldwide, economies are reeling from the consequences of unfetterred capitalism. Offer us a change that isn’t more of the same with a new coat of paint.

    Ros- I’d drive down but its 500 miles and my week with the kid. You should’ve come to Northern California. The weather was great today; only 102º F., a perfect day to tour the solar powered brewery on the pedal powered bus.

  3. September 8, 2008 at 10:30

    The Federal Reserve is going to print out BILLIONS more monopoly money to postpone a collapse of the US financial system with another bail-out like what happened with Bear Stearns as the BBC World Service mentioned this now that the US economy would have indeed collapsed in two weeks if this bail-out had not been arranged – see what Jefferson mentioned via his words at the end of the following youtube):

    Ron Paul: Secret Crowds:

    Here is the BBC article:

    US takes over key mortgage firms

    Story from BBC NEWS:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/business/7602992.stm

    ————————————————-

    http://NEOCONZIONISTTHREAT.COM

  4. September 8, 2008 at 10:55

    Issues to discuss? here’s one for you: As an outsider looking in, I must say I’m a bit disappointed with the quality of campaign ad’s. It’s either mudslinging or negative ad’s targeted at the other person. Why can’t both political parties focus on issues instead of trying to outwit each other in negative campaign ad’s ? For an “advanced democracy like The US, it’s embarrassing. If you can address this, great.

  5. 5 Lubna
    September 8, 2008 at 11:20

    Hi my Precious Ros… Oh, I must admit that I am really sick and tired of this whole fuss about the American presidential elections… But please Ros, ask your guests about Iraq on Wednesday… Let’s imagine that I, an Iraqi citizen, do have the right to vote in those elections… In your guests’ opinions, which one should I vote for ?! Mr Obama or Mr McCain ?! And why ?! With my love… Yours forever, Lubna in Baghdad…

  6. 6 Rose
    September 8, 2008 at 11:24

    The US Attorney General ordered the Israel lobby to register as the agent of a foreign government in 1962. Why have AIPAC gotten away with it and not complied even until this day? Why haven’t any US president made them register especially after the Pollard affair and these newer Israeli spy scandals? And they don’t have any business in making our war plans for us, which is for Israel’s benifit.

  7. 7 Sherie M. - California
    September 8, 2008 at 12:18

    I want to see a discussion on “what is true patriotism?” Is it blindly supporting your government? What if you love your country, but disagree with the path your government is taking? What is the patriotic thing to do in this instance?

    Also, “what can be said of a government that is feared by its people?” or “what can be said of a government that is stripping away the rights of it’s citizens in the name of security?”

    Inquiring minds need to know.

  8. 8 Vijay from High Wycombe UK
    September 8, 2008 at 13:00

    What are the chances of another Rodney King style beating occuring in LA?
    Any chance of urban riots?
    Are gangs more powerful than ever?
    Is the LAPD still institutionally racist?
    If I don’t speak Spanish will I have problems visiting LA or the Grand Canyon in AZ.
    Should California sucede from the USA?
    Should the government provide better public transport or start to subsidise petrol(gas)?
    Arnie for President?(after changing the law)
    Does LA have culture?(apart from frozen yogurt)
    NoCal or SoCal any difference does it matter?
    and East coast versus West coast(and nothing in the middle)?
    If the 21st Century is the Pacific Century is LA the capital?should it be ?how can it it become the Pacific Captial?

  9. September 8, 2008 at 13:35

    Hi Ros
    Iranian Prelates Throw In the Towel
    TEHRAN – Here we have a nation bursting at the seams, crying out for change.
    Is the US presidential election the same or just fun and glitter like the Olympics? “Good boy Obama, dad is proud of you back in Kenya.” and ‘Hail Sarah Palin!” If only she could take over the Republican candidacy!” When will the candidates commit themselves!
    Where does Washington stand on Iran? Is it ready to fight it out? Where are the cohort of supporters that it is supposed to have? Where is the highbrow talk of civil liberties and rights of mankind that we customarily hear on the campaign trail!
    The fraternity of sacrosanct patriarchs and most unholy Iranian prelates have thrown in the towel. They can’t cope. They don’t know what they are doing. Blundering and dithering is part of the daily routine of the Tehran government. We don’t want it, you don’t want it. When are we going to get rid of it!

  10. 10 Shirley
    September 8, 2008 at 14:28

    Why do Democratic and Republican candidates have to be bound by so many elements of the party platform? Can’t we either allow for more flexibility in the party platform or loosen the screws on third parties through more equal media coverage and such? I don’t feel that one has a real choice with the Democratic and Republican parties. They really are too similar for my tastes. The third parties really are not publicised enough to get the attention of the average person, either. A person can hardly talk about Cynthia McKinney or Bob Barr without spending ten minutes just introducing them to others. Even certain members of the Democratic and Republican parties don’t get the kind of media attention that others do – the way that the media stubbornly refuse to acknowledge the existence of Dennis Kucinich whenever he runs for President really makes me ill. Please make the platforms more flexible and truly open the field to third party candidates.

  11. 11 steve
    September 8, 2008 at 14:33

    @ Shirley

    Do you really think people who desperately want to be in power would willingly give it up?This is basically my entire point about narcissism and politicians (which independents wouldn’t be immune from, McKinney is a realy piece of work herself). They feel entitled to power, and wont give it up. The major political parties are a psychologist’s dream of personality disorders. In the US, we allow the insane to rule over us.

  12. 12 Bob in Queensland
    September 8, 2008 at 14:48

    Well, to put a slight international spin on the debate, perhaps you could ask something like:

    The international perception of the USA has plummeted over the past 8 years. Is this a matter of concern in America and, if so, what steps would the two main candidates take to try and repair the damage done and restore the position of the USA?

  13. 13 steve
    September 8, 2008 at 14:58

    @ Bob

    I’m curious, why does the US even have to do this in your eyes?

    Wanting people to like you is disturbing behavior that the most insecure people have. It actually if anything makes people dislike you.

  14. 14 Bob in Queensland
    September 8, 2008 at 15:06

    Actually Steve I didn’t actually say I wanted the US to do anything. What I’m curious about is whether Americans in general and the presidential candidates in particular feel the need to do anything.

    However, from a purely practical point of view, America may be a superpower but even superpowers need allies and support from time to time. Surely international relations would be easier for the USA if they weren’t perceived as having an arrogant disregard for opinions in other countries.

  15. 15 Kelsie in Houston
    September 8, 2008 at 15:16

    @Bob:
    Your point about the need for allies is well taken. In a recent monograph on the French and Indian (Seven Years’) War, Fred Anderson observed that imperial control (apologies to those who disagree with this term’s applicability to the United States) can only be exerted with the cooperation of those being controlled–if such cooperation is denied, imperial control only exists within the reach of the empire’s guns.

    If the goal of certain aspects of the U.S. government’s policymaking establishment is to establish and preserve American dominance of the world’s geopolitical environment, the best step toward this goal would seem to be the creation of goodwill, rather than fear, toward the United States, and the fostering of amity between states and the U.S.

    I don’t know that America as a nation could successfully want people to like us, but it would be in our interests (if that is one’s sole focus) to at least cease giving the world reasons to not like us.

  16. 16 royston roberts
    September 8, 2008 at 15:55

    hi ros, tell the american people that they will be voting for the president of the united nations of the world, not the united states, because a president elects, will be responsible for policies that will involve every living soul under planet earth, so they must put somebody in the white house when that 3:00 a.m call comes in, that there is a terrorist attack in the northern hemisphere, or rebel incursion in a tiny african country, will be not looking for article in the constituition that surpport actions to be taken, but be willing to take prehemtive measures to make the world a safer place, dont put a coward in white house, dont put a man that only read politics and policies theoretically, but no practical skills,& experience,we are facing the greatest global threats of our life time, which needs men who can handel the wrong end people perceptions, like those of terrorists, and extremists. be american, think rationally, vote maccain,he is the man for the job.

  17. 17 Dennis @ OCC
    September 8, 2008 at 17:12

    i hope you have a great show…ros..

  18. 18 Carolyn from Cleveland (WCPN)
    September 8, 2008 at 18:01

    Ros, if you’re doing the moderating I’m sure it will be terrific. And thanks so much for bringing in Toby Ziegler – we so long for the intelligence and wit of that administration!

    I personally am terrified about this election. Frankly, I feel it’s our last chance to get it right. My greatest concern is the quality of a populace that could have given us the last 8 years. What can I say – here’s to better times.

  19. 19 Anthony
    September 8, 2008 at 18:08

    AWESOME!!! I live close, and I’m wondering if it’s like a WHYS forum where people can go and watch??? I would love to go (and hopefully get a picture with you)!!!

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  20. 20 Gloria in Oregon
    September 9, 2008 at 03:28

    Greetings, Ros,

    Welcome to the United States.

    My suggestion is an earnest discussion re: “Separation of Church & State”. I find the current political climate quite disturbing, what with the increasingly adhesive melding together of church & state. What is this incessant obsession about a nominees’ faith and religious beliefs?! We are supposed to be electing a new president of the country, not a religious leader of the country.

    Looking forward to listening Wednesday. Disappointed your tour will not bring you & your team weaving through the Pacific Northwest. Perhaps another time.
    Meanwhile, have a wonderful trip, Ros, one that is interesting, informative, fun, and safe.

    Thank you so very much for what you do, Ros. You are the best.

    Sincerely,
    Gloria

  21. 21 Jai
    September 9, 2008 at 03:49

    Richard Schiff has spent a fair amount of his “free time” both advocating for and raising funding for special needs children like my little autistic guy. Unfortunately, he’s not running for office, and there is a fair amount of confusion regarding which tandem is talking smack and which is genuinely interested in IDEA funding. Can your guest shed any light on this? -Poulsbo, WA

  22. 22 Bob in Queensland
    September 9, 2008 at 06:45

    Of course, my other question is who messed up at the BBC for them to put Ros on air at a time when I can listen without using toothpicks to prop my eyes open?

    Seriously, from the time of airing, am I right in assuming this show is aimed more at Americans than the British/European audience?

  23. 23 Bryan
    September 9, 2008 at 08:04

    Rachael Catran September 8, 2008 at 7:50 am

    James September 8, 2008 at 10:30 am

    Rose September 8, 2008 at 11:24 am

    Ah, yes, the “Israel Lobby.” A group so influential and with such control over the US government. Just seems a bit strange that this bunch of Jews can’t do anything to:-

    *Free Jonathan Pollard who has been languishing in prison in the US for decades for spying for Israel

    *Rein in Condoleeza Rice and the Arab-friendly US State Department, who keep on trying to whittle Israel down to less than toothpick size, thus bringing more Arab terrorists right up to the borders of a shrinking Israel.

    Such lobbying power can only be dreamed of by ordinary mortals!

  24. September 9, 2008 at 11:29

    Hi gang ! ;-)… Oh, the influential pro-Israel lobby inside the US ??! Come on guys, what on earth are you talking about ??! In fact, I do strongly demand the next American president to stop being coward… I dare him to criticise openly, clearly and firmly, even for once, the Palestinian government and the Palestinian defence forces when they commit a wrongful act against innocent Israeli civilians who are apparantly hungery, despaired, helpless, hopeless, completely isolated from the outside world, and being crashed on regular bases and devoided of their humanity !!! Obviously the Palestinian government and the Palestinian defence forces will always go on occupying the West Bank and East Jerusalem, will always go on building illegal colonies there, and will always go on crashing and harming innocent Israeli civilians by every means possible… And what will the next American president do about all that ?! Nothing except crying bitterly just like little girls in the lap of the Palestinian President… Oh my God ! It seems that the specie of ”True Men” is truely facing the danger of extinction… With my love… Yours forever, Lubna in Baghdad…

  25. 25 Rose
    September 9, 2008 at 12:57

    Rice said, “Israel’s security is key to the security of rest the of world.” When she has talks with the PM’s in Israel they cross their fingers (renege on promises) behind their back to stop settlements so the peace process can go foward and when she walks out the door they flip the bird behind her back.

    Pollard committed treason against the US, the American people wouldn’t stand for his release. Now they catch another guy tied in with Pollard, Ben Ami Kadish and Israel swore that they weren’t spying on us anymore.

    But, then comes the Larry Franklin case, along with Keith Weissman & Steven Rosen, the AIPAC case.

    They have allegedly committed treason against the US, their trial has been postponed many times and by whom?

    AIPAC brought these resolutions before congress against Iran – H. Con. Res. 362 and S. Res. 580.

    A US Navy sailor, Ariel J. Weinmann, is also suspected of spying for Israel.

    Mondoweiss says: Awareness of the Israel Lobby Is Now Out There in the American Hinterland.

    Not once did I mention anything about power, I asked a simple question and someone gets all bent out of shape and takes this into a different direction.

    When is an offical going to order AIPAC to register as a foreign agent, because the American people can no longer trust them!

  26. September 9, 2008 at 13:38

    Excellent post, Rose…

    James Bamford (the most respected intelligence author in America who discussed the ‘A Clean Break’/war for Israel agenda in his ‘A Pretext for War’ book – see the ‘A Clean Break’ link at http://NEOCONZIONISTTHREAT.COM) mentions the ongoing AIPAC espionage case in the following article (the paperback version of ‘A Pretext for War’ includes an additional section about the AIPAC case which the pro-Israel biased ‘American’ media is hardly covering either):

    Iran: The Next War:

    http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/10962352/iran_the_next_war/1

  27. September 9, 2008 at 13:40

    Congress is about to pour lighter fluid on Iran

    http://www.startribune.com/opinion/27827654.html?elr=KArksc8P:Pc:Ug8P:Pc:UiD3aPc:_Yyc:aULPQL7PQLanchO7DiUr

    ———————————————–

    Ron Paul steals McCain’s thunder:

    http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/Find-Freedom.htm?At=037895

  28. 28 Jeanne
    September 9, 2008 at 14:25

    America’s uncritical support of the Israeli theft of Palestinian land and water in the West Bank and East Jerusalem has brought down the rage of the Muslim world (1.4 billion) on us. If the United States were the first concern of the Israeli Lobby, they would demand that Israel not occupy and settle those lands in return for the billions and billions of money and arms we give Israel. Do American Jews who are not member of AIPAC etc. care about the harm that Israeli policies are doing to the United States? If so, why don’t they speak up in opposition to these powerful lobbying groups?

  29. 29 steve
    September 9, 2008 at 14:28

    @ Jeanne

    Here we go again….

    Blaming Israel for the actions of 1.3 billion muslims is like blaming women for being raped due to how they are dressed. It’s not Israel’s fault that muslims go insane that Israelis are even born. It is THEIR responsibility to not goin into a frothing rage every time israel defends itself.

    Tell us Jeanne, what should happen with Israel so you can sleep better at night? Should all of them die so that muslims are happy world wide? Small price to pay, eh?

    I have a BRILLIANT idea, why don’t you put the blame where it belongs, from the insane, religious base crazy reactions.

    It’s the fault of fanatic religious followers, not israel. I know it might be hard for you to blame someone other than israel, but try…

  30. 30 steve
    September 9, 2008 at 14:30

    oh no! neoconzionstthreat dot com! I know, let’s have a contest to find websites that blames the jews for most every problem on the earth! Then we can blame our unemployment or underemployment on the jews rather than ourselves!! JOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOS!!

    JOOOOOOOOOOOOOOS!

  31. September 9, 2008 at 14:35

    Excellent post, Jeanne..

    Please take a look at the ‘What Motivated the 9/11 Hijackers? youtube video which is linked on the right at http://NEOCONZIONISTTHREAT.COM

  32. 32 Sherie M. - California
    September 9, 2008 at 14:38

    Have you all seen this? We, the taxpayers, are the ones this expense is going to fall on. How about we use some of the money we send to every man, woman and child in Israel on the men, women and children here in the US who need it?!

    Commentary on the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac bailout.

    ‘More Communist than China’

    http://www.cnbc.com/id/26603489

  33. 33 steve
    September 9, 2008 at 15:02

    @ Rachael

    Care to blame any of your other problems on us? Overweight? Why don’t you blame me?

    Not paid enough? It must be a conspiracy. Blame me.

    I know, the Russia-Georgia thing must be the fualt of the Jews, ooops, I meant Zionists.. Those eurpean Jews, I mean zionists, are to blame from everything from the zit on your face to the credit crisis. Feel better now?

    So how will Israel not exist in a few years? The Iranians, and their “nonexistent” nuclear weapons? It seems like people like you really want Iran to get nuclear weapons, yet deny they are making them. I’m curious, who will you blame for everything if your “dream” of no more Israel comes true?

    Did you think about who you would blame for every problem if you don’t have the jews to blame it on?

  34. September 9, 2008 at 15:06

    Did you think about who you would blame for every problem if you don’t have the jews to blame it on?

    Well thats simple…. White people, America, and the west lol

  35. 35 Jeanne
    September 9, 2008 at 15:54

    No one answered the question. Why do American Jews support Israeli policies such as the occupation and settlements that are against the stated position of eight US Presidents? For many American Jews, support for Israel is not enough, they want the land of the Palestinians as well as the land of Israel. I have always supported the state of Israel but not the occupation and settlements. Can you answer the question please – do you support the theft of Palestinian land and water?

  36. 36 steve
    September 9, 2008 at 16:07

    @ Jeanne

    So every jew does as you say they do?

    While we’re at in Jeanne, did you have a problem with Egypt and Jordan occupied Gaza and the west bank, or do you have only a problem when jews “steal” land?

  37. 37 Jeanne
    September 9, 2008 at 16:23

    While there are many instances of theft of land (Darfur etc.) which we all oppose, it is the theft of Palestinian land and water that brings down the wrath of Muslims on Americans, because it is with American taxpayers dollars and weapons that Israel uses to steal their land and water. I certainly understand American Jews support for Israel. But how do they support the use of American tax dollars to steal Palestinian land and water which causes so much harm to each and every citizen in the United States?

  38. 38 steve
    September 9, 2008 at 16:49

    @ Jeanne

    China is helping sudan to do what it’s doing in darfur, which is far worse. will muslims be killing chinese soon, or perhaps they just really hate the jews?

  39. 39 Jessica in NYC
    September 9, 2008 at 17:18

    Ros,

    I like Bob and Kelsie’s point s about international allies. We don’t “need” to be adored by the world, but it is in the US’ best interest and for the security not to be loath. For Americans traveling abroad it would be safer for us if we were not hated or targets, because of our government’s foreign relations. Thanks.

  40. 40 Sherie M. - California
    September 9, 2008 at 17:19

    @ Steve

    You aren’t even denying that the Israelis steal the Palistinian land and water, because you can’t. Instead you are desparately trying to distract and detract from the very real crime against humanity going on here. You want to talk about Darfur and China, knock yourself out. But, don’t think anyone with any kind of rationality and intelligence will be fooled by your sorry smokescreens.

    We are talking about America’s unequivocal support of Israel because as Americans that effects US too. I suppose if I lived in China, I might be more concerned about any Chinese enabling of the crisis in Darfur, but I’m not. I am an American and my focus is on America’s exacerbating role in the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people. I expect any American loyal to America first would too.

  41. 41 steve
    September 9, 2008 at 17:23

    @ Sherie

    Yes, Israel is “stealing” land from the Palestinians in a war it didn’t start. But how about this, unless you give back the land you are sitting on California that was stolen from the natives, dont’ tell Israel what to do. That makes you a hypocrite. At least Jews are from there. Are you a native american? If not, admit your hypocrisy, then dont tell Israelis to do what you aren’t willing to do yourself. The US won lands in offensive wars. Israel won a war it didn’t start. That must pain you, that Israel won and didn’t get wipes out by it’s enemies.

  42. 42 Jens
    September 9, 2008 at 17:25

    steve,

    let’d br honest, the orthodox russian jews are not realy from there….otherwise all christians and muslims can claim to be from there as well…….

  43. 43 steve
    September 9, 2008 at 17:37

    @ Jens

    Is this going into the Khazar conspiracy theories that white supremacists use to deligitimize israel by saying jews aren’t real jews?

  44. 44 Jens
    September 9, 2008 at 17:47

    No,

    i am just saying that orthodox jews coming from russia, probably do not have a direct gentic connection in terms of origin to that strech of land.

    by all means they are as jewish as jews can be. there is no doubt that religion is a question of commitment and believe and that this is and has to be independent of race and origin. there are asian christians that are as christian as anybody that comes from the “holy land”.

  45. 45 steve
    September 9, 2008 at 17:51

    @ Jens

    Who in their right mind, especially in Russia, where they had systematic antisemitism, pogroms, etc in the past, would convert to judaism?

  46. 46 Jens
    September 9, 2008 at 18:02

    steve,

    just look at the historic distribution of jews all over europe. a lot of jews lived in central and eastern part of europe. i doubt that all of these people have a direct genetic link to the holy land. judaism has been the second largest religion all over europe. if you look at the influx of people to israel, a significant chunck has come from eatern european countries and is still coming from there, in large parts because they were supressed for such a long time. from my little bit of understanding, this is actually a problem for israel per se, since the future of israel is build on high tech industries and many of the othodox jews are opposed that development, wanting a much more conservative policy. these people never converted, they have hundreds of years of ancestry in europe…..

  47. 47 Jeanne
    September 9, 2008 at 18:06

    Steve, I am not suggesting that we give back Israel to the Palestinians or CA back to Mexico or the US back to native Americans. But I would not support the further theft of land from Mexico or native Americans. Most Americans support Israel but do not support the theft of more land from the Palestinians. Eight US Presidents have stated that the occupation and settlelments are illegal. In a big speech before at the UN, our Ambassador to the UN announced to the world that the US considered the occupation and settlements illegal. I do not support the theft of land or water anywhere, but when it is done with American tax dollars we will incur the rage of those whose lands are being stolen. Please answer the question, do you support the Israeli theft of Palestinian land and water? Do you understand, why I resent my tax dollars being used by Israel to steal Palestinian land and water?

  48. 48 steve
    September 9, 2008 at 18:12

    @ Jeanne. Name me parts of the US that weren’t won in war? Israel won that land in wars it didn’t start. It didn’t win it from The Palestinians either. It won them from Egypt and Jordan, who themselves didn’t give the palestinians indepdenence. You answer the question, why do you expect israel to do what you aren’t willing to do yourself? If your problem is with israel winning land and not giving it back to the natives, then you only look in the mirror and ask yourself why you don’t do it, and then you’ll have the answer of the israelis likely as well.

  49. 49 Jens
    September 9, 2008 at 18:16

    steve,
    i actually agree with you on this one. not many countries have given back as much land as israel has done, which it gain in wars it did not start. plus not many countries have given back that much land for so little gain, since israels security was went to be improved by these actions but clearly has not. the palenstines are generaly not very welcome by it’s arabs neighbors and alleged friends……

  50. 50 Sherie M. - California
    September 9, 2008 at 18:17

    Steve,

    This isn’t first grade, “They started it!”

    If you don’t think continuing stealing land and water isn’t instigating war then you are beyond reason. I expect you also think the Palestinians should THANK Israel for CONTINUING to steal their land and water while locking them behind an apharteid wall to the effect of creating a present day concentration camp. “We will never forget” I guess that doesn’t mean anything to you so long as it’s happening to someone else.

    You want to call me a hypocrite for something that didn’t even happen in my lifetime. “GUILT”, you want to guilt me? I bet you are good at that aren’t you? Isn’t it what you do best?

    I’m sorry I can’t redress a grievance that happened before my lifetime. And I do not choose to accept your guilt laying. I do choose to concern myself with the present, where I and others like me, might actually be able to make a difference, to have a positive impact in this lifetime. That’s what you’re afraid of.

    I’m not telling Israel what to do, I can’t possibly, I wish from a humanitarian point of view I could.

    BTW, humanity is everyone’s business.

  51. 51 steve
    September 9, 2008 at 18:23

    @ Sherie

    So since hte US stole land, that’s okay. So you can sit on stolen land in California, telling Israelis to do what you aren’t willing to do yourself?

    ““We will never forget” I guess that doesn’t mean anything to you so long as it’s happening to someone else.”

    Are you trying to compare the holocuast with is what is happening to the Palestinians? I’m curious when people bring that up, it either means you are a holocuast deniar, or thing that the Israelis are killing millions of palestinians. Which is it?

    Israel won the best bank and Gaza before my lifetime. I’m sure before your lifetime as well. Another double standard you have?

    if humanity is everyone’s business, how about focus on more pressing humanitarian crises? People ignore a lot of things so they can focus on bashing israel for everything it does.

  52. 52 steve
    September 9, 2008 at 18:24

    @Jens

    I agree with you completely. Yet Israel gets bashed for doing things for peace tha tno other country ever has been expected to do.

  53. 53 Bridget Panzer
    September 9, 2008 at 18:38

    END THE FEDERAL RESERVE – A privately owned bank controled by JP Morgan, Chase Rothschild and Rockefeller. The same men that created the United Nations one world government bank.
    “Owe no man nothing, less you be his slave”
    Every American personally owes them $30,000 from America’s debt.

  54. 54 Jeanne
    September 9, 2008 at 18:40

    Israel can steal every last inch of Palestinian land and every last drop of Palestinian water if they choose — but to do it with the weapons and tax dollars of Americans puts everyone in the United States in harms way. Again, I ask you, why do American Jews lobby for American aid which is used to steal Palestinian land and water which hurts America? There has been theft of other peoples lands all over the world which concerns us, but it is THE THEFT OF PALESTINIAN LAND AND WATER WITH US TAX DOLLARS THAT HAS PUT US IN HARMS WAY. Again I ask, do Israelis and American Jews care about this harm to Americans?

  55. 55 steve
    September 9, 2008 at 18:47

    @ Jeanne.

    So now Israel is stealing every last square inch of land and water? I thought the peace proposals were to return 97% of the land?

    So, if you hold American Jews responsible for the actions of Israel, then it would be logical to hold all muslims reponsible for the action of muslim militants right?

    The theft of Darfuri land is happening with Chinese taxpayer money. Georgian land with Russian taxpayer money. Yet people like you focus on Israel, i wonder why?

    How does the actions of Israel harm the US? Because some crazy religious whackjobs go nuts that jews dare live near muslims causes them to attack buildings? That’s their irrational reponse. As I said before, blaming israel for the actions of islamic extremists is like blaming women for getting raped. It’s for the muslim extremists to behave in a civilized manner. So if Israel does something, it’s okay for some fanatic in pakistan to target civilians? Justify anything they do by blaming it on Israel?

    Pleaes. Time to hold every human up to the same standards of civilized behavior and stop excusing terrorism. The jihadis are just as human as you and I. I don’t like Iran’s policies, but I don’t go trying to murder Iranian civilians. Stop the double standard.s

  56. 56 Jeanne
    September 9, 2008 at 18:52

    Steve, You never mention that GB (the Balfour Declaration) and later the US gave away the homeland of Palestinians to European Jews which was the beginning of the whole mess. But that wasn’t enough — American Jews and Israelis wanted it all. But that isn’t enough, they want the American taxpayers to finance the theft. That is Chutzpah!!!!!

  57. 57 John
    September 9, 2008 at 19:16

    No one holds all American Jews responsible for the policies of Israel. But AIPAC the big Israeli lobbying group (and there are many others) is made up of American Jews who support the occupation and settlements. While they have every right to support Israeli policies, they lobby for American money to support policies that are against the stated policy of the United States. How can American Jews support policies that damage America?

  58. 58 Jeanne
    September 9, 2008 at 19:38

    Steve states that we took land from the Indians and Mexicans so it is OK for Israel to take land from the Palestinians. Most Americans are well aware that we have several BLACK marks in American history for which we are ashamed — slavery and the lands taken from Native Americans and Mexico. Those black events were hundreds of years ago and since that time we have given back land captured in war (Germany and Japan) as is the new standard of international law — lands captured in war cannot be occupied and settled. But even back then when there was no sense of international law, I bet we would have been far more generous to the Native Americans if they had 1.4 billion angry brothers and sisters who surrounded us. But does that bother Israel? No, they just get the US to be their point man against the Muslim world. Israel, the neocons and the big Israeli Lobby in the US campaigned for a US invasion of Iraq and are now campaigning for a US attack on Iran. In other words, take all of Palestine with US aid and if that angers the Arab world, campaign for the US to “take them out”.

  59. 59 Jeanne
    September 9, 2008 at 19:43

    John is my husband. Does he have a right to state his opinion?

  60. September 9, 2008 at 19:46

    John is my husband. Does he have a right to state his opinion?

    Oh snap! lol

  61. 61 Sherie M. - California
    September 9, 2008 at 20:28

    No Honor among thieves! Check this out:

    Israeli Settlers fight amongst themselves over stolen land

    http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1220526713663&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

  62. 62 James Gragg
    September 9, 2008 at 22:08

    My questions for discussion are:

    When will the Federal government repeal the 1871 Act and begin to defend the rights of its citizens? When will the “corporate intrest’s first” seitiment of this government stop? The military/industrial complex has strangled and perverted our government, our economy, peaceful technoloy advances, benifits to our citizens by use of these emerging technologies and have bankrupted our nation. When will this stop?? Must a second revolution or civil war be fought to curb futher coruption?

  63. 63 Bryan
    September 9, 2008 at 22:55

    James
    Rachel Catran
    Rose
    Sherie M. – California
    Jeanne
    John

    Goodness, what an energetic flurry of activity there’s been from the anti-Israel crowd since I last popped in this morning. You guys are almost starting to resemble a lobby.

    Pity your enthusiasm is not matched by knowledge of the history of the Israel-Arab conflict. You’ll be bound to get a wildly distorted picture if you access funny websites that rant and rave against Zionism, but I guess that’s what you want.

    Predictably the tired old emotional cry resounds about Israel “stealing Palestinian land.” In fact, the early Jewish pioneers purchased much of the land and reclaimed much unused land like swamps and desert to make it habitable. And the Jews can hardly be blamed for the Palestinians who fled the nascent state of Israel so that the invading Arab armies could “drive the Jews into the sea,” in the hope that they could return and claim all the land.

    And the other resounding cry comparing Israel to the Nazis is no less insulting for being a stale old repetition of a gross slur from people who either know nothing about the Nazis or who know, but prefer to hide behind that slur rather than engage in honest debate.

    Palestine was never a country. But the Arabs (they were not calling themselves Palestinians then) could have already had a state more than sixty years ago if they had accepted the UN Partition plan of 1947. The Jews accepted it but the Arabs chose to opt for the destruction of the newborn state. We all know how that and the other wars worked out. Now Israel is the only country in the world required to return land won in defensive wars.

    Regarding America’s defence of Israel, if anyone really imagines that radical Islam only has Israel in its sights, they have been asleep for the last few decades. Iran is the main centre of Islamic terrorism. And its reach extends far beyond Israel.

  64. 64 Jeanne
    September 10, 2008 at 00:13

    And still no one has answered the question — how can AIPAC lobby for the tax dollar of each and every American to support the Israeli occupation and settlements which 8 American Presidents have stated are illegal? How can American Jews who belong to AIPAC etc. put America in harms way?

  65. 65 selena in Canada
    September 10, 2008 at 01:13

    For your guests:

    Does the bailout of Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae, by a Republican government, signal a change of attitude toward the free market? Does it set a precedent?

    Should the bailout be debated rigorously during the election campaign?

  66. 66 steve
    September 10, 2008 at 01:33

    @ SElena

    Everyone is going to agree it was unfortunately necessary. The economy would basically collapse otherwise. The real question is, has everyone learned a lesson from this or will it enable banks to think they can make poor loan decisions?

  67. 67 steve
    September 10, 2008 at 01:34

    @ Jeanne

    How is AIPAC putting america in harms way if everyone is in control of their actions? I don’t like Iran’s policies yet I don’t want to go out and Kill Iranians, and I highly doubt if i did, anyone would say to iran, “yes, we condemn what steve but, but this is why he did it”.

  68. 68 steve
    September 10, 2008 at 01:36

    @ Sherie

    Did not settlers squabble in Okalahoma? The “Sooners”? What about druing the Gold rush in california?

  69. 69 Dennis @ OCC
    September 10, 2008 at 01:36

    We all have our right to post our opinions….

  70. 70 steve
    September 10, 2008 at 01:59

    Rachael,

    Thanks for confirming my suspicions. You blame the jews for every problem in the world, and even deny the holocaust. You did everything in one little paragraph. Wow, the Liberty. An accident Israel apologized for, and the US accepted. Did you know allied forces (British) in WW2 sank the german ship the Cap Arcona, which was full of allied POWs and concentration camp victims? Killing over 5000. But of course, israel wasn’t involved, so it doesn’t matter. Brian, I’ll let you takeover if you so wish.

  71. 71 Sherie M. - California
    September 10, 2008 at 04:20

    Actually Steve, it is well known the USS Liberty was no accident. Israel deliberately attacked the Liberty and meant to sink it and blame it on the Egyptians. The incident was covered up and swept under the rug. The surviving crew were ordered not to discuss what happened, not even with each other. Fortunately, the truth has a way of coming out and even now there are crew members speaking out about this heinous crime against Americans by it’s supposed ally.

    Just google USS Liberty.

    Here is just one such link:

    http://www.ussliberty.org/voices.htm

  72. September 10, 2008 at 04:21

    Ros,

    Great show!

    My question is what do the mudslinging and ad hominum attacks advertisements say about the American voters?

  73. 73 Tom Goodwin
    September 10, 2008 at 04:24

    This question of Barack Obama’s experience is one more of the myriad examples of Republicans calling the tune, not unlike an unwelcome drunk grabbing the mike at a wedding… very hard to wrest it from him.
    The REAL question should be, what are the respective candidates’ intellectual capabilites, their ability to think on their feet, and their life experiences. How telling it is that since the Republican convention, John McCain and Sarah Palin have repeatedly given the exactly same editted versions of their convention speeches. No interaction w/audience or news reporters. No live thinking.

  74. 74 simon marriott
    September 10, 2008 at 07:06

    So it is official, the world wants Obama to be the next president of the US. Surely this is not a critisism of McCain but of the Republican party and the worlds most hated man George W Bush. To me it is not so important who wins the election as long as it is not a Bush follower!

  75. 75 Bryan
    September 10, 2008 at 07:41

    steve September 10, 2008 at 1:59 am

    Brian, I’ll let you takeover if you so wish.

    I wouldn’t dream of it. We need to watch each others’ backs as the anti-Israel gang attacks from all sides. Yes, and Rachael Catran has everything in one, as you said. She has revealed herself as not simply anti-Israel, but anti-Semitic since the Holocaust had nothing to do with Israel, which obviously had not yet been established, and everything to do with the fact of the Nazis slaughtering millions simply because they were Jewish.

    (A note to Rachael Catran at 1:49 am: if you are going to deny the Holocaust, at least get the spelling right. If you spell it Holicost people might think you don’t know what you are talking about.)

    Jeanne September 10, 2008 at 12:13 am

    Let’s have a link to these “eight American presidents” who have said the settlements are “illegal.” If you would actually like to learn something about the situation, study the background to UN Resolution 242. Israel is required to withdraw from settlements not from the settlements. The choice of language was deliberate:

    “The elimination of the definite article ‘the’ was an explicit compromise engineered by the United states in order to permit the retention by Israel of territories necessary to assure secure boundaries.”

    ‘The Case for Israel’ Alan Dershowitz p 96.

    He also points out on the same page that Resolution 242 “for the first time in history ordered a nation to return territories lawfully captured in a defensive war.”

    That was the 1967 Six-Day War of course.

    I see you are avoiding my comment of last night at 10:55 pm. I pointed out that Islamic terrorism has far greater prizes than Israel in its sights. Also I don’t see you complaining about the fact that US aid to Egypt is similar to US aid to Israel. Egypt has been destabilising the situation for decades by turning a blind eye to weapons smuggling by Gaza terrorists. You should also be complaining about the cosy relationship between the US and Saudi Arabia – also a major sponsor of Islamic terrorism.

  76. September 10, 2008 at 10:35

    Bryan,

    I had left you a comment but it hasn’t shown up. Here is a link to it:
    http://representativepress.blogspot.com/2008/09/bryan-you-have-repeated-usual.html

    I hope this one posts because it has important info which debunks several of the Zionist myths you posted.

  77. 78 Rose
    September 10, 2008 at 11:00

    Bryan to your dismay I’m not neo conned like the rest of the sheep in America who languish in front of the TV watching the soaps and American Idol, that’s why that crap is on television, to keep Americans busy doing something else and being oblivious of what is coming down around them.

    Bryan where did you get that history from? The funnies? Hahahahahahahaha

    You can keep your re-written Zionist history about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict to yourself or use it on the ignorant, because I know better.

    The Origins of the Palestine – Israel Conflict
    Written by Jews for Justice in the Middle East

    http://www.cactus48.com/truth.html

    There’s a real threat to America and that is Zionism, our founding fathers NEVER put that BS in their equation for the future of America. Zionism is not Americanism whatsoever. It’s a radical political movement that needs to stay in Israel where it belongs!

    http://www.stopaipac.org/perspectives.htm

    PRO-ISRAEL LOBBY IN US UNDER ATTACK

    http://www.upi.com/InternationalIntelligence/view.php?StoryID=20060320-124726-1902r

    JINSA Behind Drive To
    Cover-Up Israeli Spy Scandal

    http://www.rense.com/general18/JINSA.htm

    *********************************
    Alan Dershowitz the plagiarist is an attack dog for AIPAC, good choice for a reference Bryan. 😉

    Alan Dershowitz The Plagiarist
    http://www.thenation.com/doc/20031013/cockburn

    ************************************

    DEAD IN THE WATER

    Saturday 21 August 2004 7pm-8.10pm; rpt 1.50am-3am

    During the Six-Day War, Israel attacked and nearly sank the USS Liberty belonging to its closest ally, the USA. Thirty-four American servicemen were killed in the two-hour assault by Israeli warplanes and torpedo boats. Israel claimed that the whole affair had been a tragic accident based on mistaken identification of the ship. The American government accepted the explanation.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentaries/features/dead_in_the_water.shtml

    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5073.htm

    http://www.wrmea.com/archives/junejuly2002/0206018.html

  78. September 10, 2008 at 11:55

    Thank you James for all the work you do to get the truth out about the main motive for the 9/11 attacks.

    You can see James at one of the 9/11 Public Discourse Project’s hearings challenging Lee Hamilton, vice Chairman of the 9/11 Commission about how they were avoiding talking about US support for Israel which was the main motive for the 9/11 attacks. SEE VIDEO HERE: http://tinyurl.com/5nlhs6

  79. 80 steve
    September 10, 2008 at 12:24

    @ Sherrie

    So why does both Israel and the US say the attack was a mistake? ANd there have been many other friendly fire attacks in history. Why are y ou focusing on the ONE that israel did? Why?

    In the 1980s, while the US was allies with Iraq, the the iraqis attacked the USS Stark, killing many sailors. Iraq apologized. Conspiracy? Or since they weren’t Israelis, it’s fine with you?

    Do you know how many attacks there have been like this in history yet you likely ignore because ISrael didn’t do it?

  80. 81 selena in Canada
    September 10, 2008 at 12:57

    @Steve

    “So why does both Israel and the US say the attack was a mistake?”

    Do you have to ask that question, Steve? You have such a low opinion of politicians. To you, of all people, the answer should be obvious.

  81. 82 selena in Canada
    September 10, 2008 at 12:58

    @Tom

    Anyone who thinks that US support for Israel was not the motive for 9/11 must be living in an alternate universe.

  82. September 10, 2008 at 13:05

    @Selena

    Anyone who thinks that US support for Israel was not the motive for 9/11 must be living in an alternate universe.

    Wait a minute…. I thought it was retribution from God for abortions and homosexuality… (?)

  83. September 10, 2008 at 13:07

    Thank goodness that bigot’s creator decided to take him back.

  84. 85 steve
    September 10, 2008 at 13:11

    @ Selena

    ACtually Osama said it was about US troops in Saudi Arabia. Take off your anti Israel goggles for just a second. He used to never even mention Israel.

  85. 86 steve
    September 10, 2008 at 13:12

    @ Selena

    So I’m only right about politicians when it deals with the US/Israel, but wrong every other time?

    What about the USS Stark being attacked by Iraq?

  86. 87 Sherie M. - California
    September 10, 2008 at 19:15

    FYI
    Hear is a site for very informative documentaries in case anyone would like to brush up on their knowledge.

    There is even a short film on the Israeli Lobby:
    http://freedocumentaries.org/film.php?id=173

    The site has this to say about it as well:

    “This is a well made film. Due to the influence of the lobby, this film could not be filmed by the United States but rather by a news station in the Netherlands. The topic of Israeli influence in the United States is one which faces incredible censorship whenever there is an attempt to discuss it. At the heart of this matter is AIPAC a powerful organization who influences US policy. The Israeli Lobby influence is so strong in both parties that relationship between the US and Israel will probably not change regardless of whether republicans or democrats are elected. If you want to understand U.S. policy in the middle east, you first should understand AIPAC.”

    Check it out for yourselves.

  87. 88 Sherie M. - California
    September 10, 2008 at 20:21

    Hey folks, I’m updating the link on the Israel Lobby documentary because it seems as if the primary one is experiencing technical difficulties. Sorry about that.

    Here is a Google video for the English version of that Dutch AIPAC documentary (must watch especially for what Lawrence Wilkerson mentions about WW 3 at the end!):

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3994543425032066015&q=&hl=en

    The Israeli Lobby
    For many years now the American foreign policy has been characterized by the strong tie between the United States and Israel. Does the United States in fact keep Israel on its feet? And how long will it continue to do so? A Dutch public broadcast shows insight on the subject.

  88. 89 Jeanne
    September 10, 2008 at 21:09

    Steve asks how does AIPAC harm America? AIPAC has lobbied for billions and billions of US tax dollars and weapons which are used to imprison Palestinians in their own homeland and steal their land and water. On page 147 of “The 9/11 Commission Report”, it states: “By his own account, KSM’s (Khalid Sheikh Mohammed) animus toward the United States stemmed not from his experiences there as a student, but not from his violent disagreement with U.S. foreign policy favoring Israel.”

    KSM was the mastermind of the attack. He was water boarded so his reasons must be as stated.

    Many, many others, including Michael Schuer (former head of the CIA’s Bin Laden Unit) writes at length in his book “Imperial Hubris” on the damage that Israel does to the US and how Israeli policies inflame the Muslim world.

  89. 90 steve
    September 10, 2008 at 21:15

    @ Jeanne

    That’ KSM’s responsibility he decides to murder people due to a country’s foreign policy. I don’t like Syria or Iran’s foreign policy and I would never murder people of those countries due to their policies, and I would pray nobody would excuse it if I did.

    It’s time to expect everyone to behave in a civilized manner. Stop excusing terrorism.

  90. 91 Bryan
    September 10, 2008 at 22:24

    selena in Canada September 10, 2008 at 12:58 pm

    @Tom

    Anyone who thinks that US support for Israel was not the motive for 9/11 must be living in an alternate universe.

    I noticed that steve deflated that particular balloon of yours at 1:11 pm

    I also noticed that you didn’t respond. You might like to reflect on the fact that Islamic terrorists regard Israel as the “Little Satan” and the US as the “Great Satan.” That should tell you something about their motivation.

    Tom September 10, 2008 at 10:35 am

    Rose September 10, 2008 at 11:00 am

    Sherie M. – California September 10, 2008 at 7:15 pm

    Jeanne September 10, 2008 at 9:09 pm

    I note that none of you has debated one point that I made at 8:48 am and 9:38 am. Too busy pasting links all over the place and groaning about “Zionists.” I don’t access links that people shove in my face without any debate. I could just paste links back but that’s not a game of ping pong that’s worth playing.

    Funny how in the minds of some of you Zionism is a swear word.

  91. 92 selena in Canada
    September 10, 2008 at 22:31

    @Bryan

    Sorry I didn’t see anything from Steve. I do not read all the comments because I am looking after a sick relative.

    But that’s my comment on 9/11 and I am sticking to it, for the time being.:-)

  92. September 10, 2008 at 22:34

    Excellent response, Jeanne.. Can read such about what KSM (Khalid Sheikh Mohammed) conveyed in the Los Angeles Times article by Terry McDermott which is referenced near the top of the following URL:

    Gorilla in the Room is US Support for Israel:

    http://www.itszone.co.uk/zone0/viewtopic.php?t=39590

    One can simply look up ‘Israel as a terrorist’s motivation in the index of James Bamford’s ‘A Pretext for War’ book as well..

    Also, scroll down to the ‘What Motivated the 9/11 Hijackers?’ youtube video at the lower right of http://NEOCONZIONISTTHREAT.COM

  93. 94 selena in Canada
    September 10, 2008 at 22:37

    O.K. just read Steve’s comments.

    Why is it that when someone makes a statement calling into question Israel’s behavior they are pegged as anti Israel?

    Some Americans on this blog questioni the actions of George Bush on a regular basis and no one ever calls them anti American.

  94. September 10, 2008 at 22:47

    Sherie,

    I don’t know if Phil posted to this message thread yet, but they definitely are still showing at the following one:

    BBC Special Debate in LA:

    https://worldhaveyoursay.wordpress.com/2008/09/10/bbc-special-debate-in-la/

  95. 96 steve
    September 10, 2008 at 23:04

    @ Selena

    Because there were vicious antisemitic comments made in this thread, that’s why selena. Antiamericanism is always pointed out on this blog.

  96. 97 selena in Canada
    September 10, 2008 at 23:13

    @ Sherie and James

    It is good to see you both taking part and posting to the Blog. Could you please try to engage us in conversation rather than post so many links?

    Bryan is right! We are trying to have a conversation about various global issues and (I believe I am right in saying) we would rather have your opinions and your reasons for them than have to look up the opinions of others who may agree with you.

    As has been said many times on this Blog, we can always find experts to agree with what we say. That doesn’t mean that we or the experts are correct. It is only by engaging in a conversation with each other that we may truly begin to see the other point of view.

    As a moderator, I thank you for your contributions and look forward to continuing the discussion.

  97. 98 selena in Canada
    September 10, 2008 at 23:14

    @Steve

    Vicious is in the eye of the beholder. Perhaps it is time for us to listen.

  98. 99 Jeanne
    September 10, 2008 at 23:33

    Steve,
    Our invasion of Iraq and Israel’s bombardment of Lebanon with cluster bombs is seen as terrorism by many in the world. As one European said: WAR IS TERRORISM OF THE RICH; TERRORISM IS WAR OF THE POOR.

  99. 100 steve
    September 10, 2008 at 23:39

    @ Jeanne

    There are many poor nations that engage in conventional war. At least in “rich” nation’s wars, though war is always regrettable, they don’t target civilians. The goal of the terrorist is to target civilians. I hope you see the difference.

  100. 101 selena in Canada
    September 10, 2008 at 23:46

    @Steve

    The difference between targeting civilians and killing civilians is what? A word maybe?

  101. September 11, 2008 at 00:37

    Speaking the truth about US support (in the BILLIONS of US taxpayer dollars which would be better spent at home in America) of what Israel does to brutally oppress the Palestinians and the US fighting wars for Israel and profit in the Middle East (Iraq quagmire with Iran still to come by the look of it) is hardly anti-Semitic. But the Israel first crowd (which Steve is obviously associated with) doesn’t like such a forum where the truth can out to other Americans who might happen to visit.

    In addition, one might be interested in taking a look at the Dutch AIPAC documentary (the interviews with John Mearsheimer, Tony Judt and Colin Powell’s former assistant Lawrence Wilkerson are in English) which is linked after the UPI article at the following URL:

    U.S. Middle East policy motivated by pro-Israel lobby:

    http://www.warwithoutend.co.uk/zone0/viewtopic.php?t=49800

    It is hardly ‘anti-American’ to put America first (something which Steve has a problem with if he is even an American to begin with). Read the ‘passionate attachment’ warning (against having a passionate attachment for foreign countries like Steve apparently has for Israel) associated with Founding Father George Washington’s ‘Farewell Address’ which is linked at the bottom of the following URL:

    http://astandforjustice.org

    ———————————

    http://NEOCONZIONISTTHREAT.COM

  102. September 11, 2008 at 01:26

    I have some very impotant facts I want to share with you all I must go now but will get you up to speed on Liberty facts soon.
    Thank you all
    Phil

  103. 104 Jeanne
    September 11, 2008 at 02:36

    Steve, It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that the millions of cluster bombs dropped by Israel on Lebanon were meant to kill civilians. A UN Belgiun Peacekeeper (in Lebanon) was just blow up by one of those cluster bombs.

  104. 105 Bryan
    September 11, 2008 at 07:23

    selena in Canada September 10, 2008 at 11:13 pm

    Thanks for that. I know some BBC forums have rules against lobbying. There is little doubt that is what is happening here with the anti-Israel crew and they are not even trying to be subtle about it. Four or five of them joined the debate at the same time, pumping out much the same anti-Israel vitriol. And one even posted the same link another had posted a few minutes before, evidently without noticing that it was already on the thread:

    https://worldhaveyoursay.wordpress.com/2008/09/10/bbc-special-debate-in-la/#comment-72055

    https://worldhaveyoursay.wordpress.com/2008/09/10/bbc-special-debate-in-la/#comment-72057

    Seems these people know one another.

    selena in Canada September 10, 2008 at 10:37 pm

    Why is it that when someone makes a statement calling into question Israel’s behavior they are pegged as anti Israel?

    Much depends on motivation, which can be partly detected from the language of the comment. When people not only insist that “Israel steals Palestinian land” but wont even debate points that are made to refute that notion, preferring to plaster links from suspect websites all over the place in response, then we are dealing with anti-Israel behaviour.

    When James, September 11, 2008 at 12:37 am, goes on about Israel “brutally oppressing the Palestinians” – naturally without giving any evidence to back his assertion – the language is evidence of his anti-Israel stance, especially when the facts show the opposite. I’m sure he would somehow find “brutal oppression” even in the fact that Israeli doctors care for Palestinian terrorists in Israeli hospitals, when those terrorists have been wounded in attacks on Israeli soldiers and civilians.

    I also note that James has posted his “Zionist threat” link for about the fifth time now.

    (There is no need to shout, James. We heard you the first time.)

    I am sure James and crew miss the rich irony in the fact that their tactics in opposing the “Israel Lobby” have shown them to be part of the anti-Israel lobby.

  105. 106 Bryan
    September 11, 2008 at 07:35

    Jeanne September 11, 2008 at 2:36 am

    Steve, It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that the millions of cluster bombs dropped by Israel on Lebanon were meant to kill civilians.

    And it doesn’t take a genius to figure out that you say that without any logical basis to your assertion. You can try to take the heat off Hezbollah terrorists as much as you like, but it wont change the fact that they, and not the Israelis, are in fact the ones who target civilians. And it wont change the fact that Hezbollah terrorists, and not civilians were the target of the IDF during the war. The IDF even dropped thousands of pamphlets warning Lebanese civilians to vacate areas dominated by Hezbollah and where they had set up their Katyusha launchers.

    I don’t agree with cluster bombs either, but you should at least try to temper your propaganda with some awareness of what is going on in that conflict.

  106. 107 Katharina in Ghent
    September 11, 2008 at 08:31

    @ Bryan

    You missed the fact that not only James & co. know each other, they also love to applaud each other. It seems that the moment one of them got approved, they fell over us like a swarm of moskitos. I’m all for open debate with as many divers opinions as possible, but this group moves like one and for a while it felt like they tried to occupy the blog.

  107. 108 Bryan
    September 11, 2008 at 10:01

    Katharina in Ghent September 11, 2008 at 8:31 am,

    Thanks for that Katharina. You made me laugh with that direct, no frills comment. As a moderator you would have access to info I don’t, but I’m pleased to see that my take on the group is correct.

    I have this image of a motley crew, led by James, roaming the internet and hijacking threads where there is even a modest “Zionist” presence. Who knows, they could even be funded by Saudi oil money. If I were into internet jargon, I’d say “LOL.”

    But I was interested to note that you mentioned James and company in the past tense. Have they been shown the door is this simply wishful thinking on my part?

  108. 109 Katharina in Ghent
    September 11, 2008 at 10:12

    @ Bryan

    Let me put it this way: we’re keeping an eye out for them. I won’t say that we’ve seen the last of them, but they won’t be able to post links only without proper discussion – which is as it should be, anyway.

  109. 110 Bryan
    September 11, 2008 at 10:59

    Good news, Katharina.

  110. 111 Jeanne
    September 11, 2008 at 12:04

    ISRAEL STEALS PALESTINIAN LAND

    On Nov.22, 2006 in the LA Times (page 5) was an article entitled: ISRAELI GROUP SAYS DATA PROVE LAND THEFT (I will quote from the article)

    Jerusalem –Israeli peace group said Tuesday that it had obtained government data showing that nearly 40% of land covered by Jewish settlements in the West Bank is privately owned by Palestinians, including big portions of blocs that Israel intends to keep under any future peace agreement. Activists from Peace Now said digital mapping data it obtained indirectly form a government source showed a widescale land theft by Israel, which has long asserted that it respects private landownership in the West Bank.

    Did you read the part where it said: A WIDESPREAD LAND THEFT BY ISRAEL

  111. 112 Jeanne
    September 11, 2008 at 12:27

    CLUSTER BOMBS

    This is an exact quote from Christopher Clark, program manager for the UN Mine Action Service in Lebanon in reference to Israeli cluster bombs:

    “We found them pretty much everywhere — in villages, at road junctions, in olive groves and on banana plantations.”

    For Israeli apologists it goes this way — Individual acts of terrorism are bad, but state sponsored acts of terrorism are fine. You cannot have it both ways!

  112. 113 steve
    September 11, 2008 at 12:32

    Jeanne, you might want to read up on Coventry, Rotterdam, Tokyo, Dresden, Hamburg, Berlin and the bombings before you criticize Israel. Has ISrael destroyed entire cities and killed 100,000 people in a single day?

  113. 114 Jeanne
    September 11, 2008 at 12:54

    Steve– so now your defense is BUT LOOK AT ALL THE OTHERS WHO HAVE DONE IT

    The problem for each and every American is this: Israel and Jewish organizations in the US lobby for our tax dollars and weapons to be sent to Israel to be used to steal Palestinian land and water. Our Ambassador to the UN spoke to the world announcing the settlements and occupation as illegal; 8 US Presidents have annouced to the world that the settlements and occupation are illegal.

    My question which has not been answered is — Why do American Jewish organizations lobby for our tax dollars to be used to steal Palestinian land and water when it is opposed by the United States? How can American Jews support Israel when these policies enrage so many people in the world, many who will strike back at us in retribution?

  114. 115 steve
    September 11, 2008 at 13:15

    @ Jeanne

    If you are allowed to refer to events in the past, so can I.

    Do you live in the US? If so,w hy don’t you give your land back to the natives it was was stolen from before you ask others to do what you aren’t willing to do yourself?

    Do you expect muslims to speak out against terrorism but you expect Jews to speak out about Israel?

    Why the double standard?

  115. 116 steve
    September 11, 2008 at 13:19

    If you can name me one inch of the US that isn’t occupied land, please, inform me. So how can what US presidents think matter when they have done what Israel is doing on a much smaller scale?

    Britain and France still have overseas possessions. THis is okay so long as they aren’t Israel? Remember, Israel won that land in a war it didn’t start. Can’t say that for Britain and the US, can you?

  116. 117 Jeanne
    September 11, 2008 at 21:59

    Steve, As I said before, Israel could steal every last inch of Palestinian land as China is doing in Tibet. The problem is that Israel is doing it with our tax dollars and weapons (despite US announcements to the world that the settlements and occupation are illegal) so the citizens of America reap the whirl winds. The taxpayer gets to pay for their own destruction.

    Another question: How can American Jewish organizations lobby for the release of Jonathan Pollard who spied on the US? As William Safire, a Jewish Zionist, said there is something terrible unethical and immoral about a country who asks for billions in foreign aid and then pays an American Jew to steal our secrets.

  117. 118 Jeanne
    September 11, 2008 at 22:53

    We are leaving for the weekend with a couple who have told us several different times that Jews (they are Jewish) frequently argue amongst themselves about Israeli policies. My friend argues that this is their country, not Israel, and they are concerned for the future of their grandchildren. One of her friends of many years hung up on her when she expressed this opinion. She states that many Jews are worried that Americans are slowly beginning to realize the damage done to America by Israeli actions with weapons and foreign aid from the US. They worry about the backlash when that realization reaches critical mass. She loaned me a magazine TIKUN in which Rabbi Michael Lerner whose entire family were active Zionists expressed that fear. He, too, opposes the occupation and settlements and thinks that it is bad for Israel, bad for America and bad for Palestinians.

  118. 119 Jeanne
    September 11, 2008 at 23:04

    One more comment, several of you have stated that England, France, China etc. etc. etc. have stolen other peoples land. BUT THEY DID NOT DO IT WITH AMERICAN TAXPAYERS DOLLARS so we do not have to suffer the consequences.

    Someone mentioned that we stole land from the Native Americans, Mexico etc. Please go to the above comments where I dealt with that.

    The US dropped 30,000 bombs on Baghdad during Shock and Awe which we will suffer the retribution. I must accept the responsibility for what my country does, but I highly resent the retribution coming our way due to the policies of Israel carried out with American weapons and foreign aid– when we have announced to the world that the occupation of Palestinian lands is illegal.


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