We noticed how popular this topic was when Brett introduced it on the blog last night and thought it deserved a separate post, so here it is….
Just to clear things up we’re not talking about necessary plastic surgery (sometimes called reconstructive surgery) here but about purely cosmetic, voluntary surgery. You can read more about the difference between the two types here.
With easy loans, a rise in cosmetic surgery tourism and even internet sponsorship available it’s easier than ever to afford to go under the knife, so is it time to stop fussing about cosmetic surgery?
In America more and more teenagers are having cosmetic surgery, nearly a quarter of a million last year. A 15 year-old girl caused controversy (especially among psychologists) in the US last month after she appeared on TV talking about her recent liposuction.
But it’s not just a Western phenomenon, more Chinese students are using the long summer break as a chance to recover from tummy tucks and breast implants before they’ve even stopped growing.
So is there anything wrong with voluntarily going under the knife if you want to look better and feel better about yourself? Do you feel sorry for people who choose cosmetic surgery? Or would you say ‘It’s my body I can do what I like’?
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BBC World Have Your Say 
I’m extremely concerned with the pressures in society which encourage ‘optional’ plastic surgery; Surgery not needed to correct a real ‘problem’. Are we as society really making people feel that poorly about themselves or their ‘flaws’ as they see them? I find it especially troubling with the growing number of youth engaging in optional cosmetic surgery procedures. Are youth having an increasingly low self esteem due to the picturesque images of what society prefers in a women or men?
The US, and I guess the entire west, is very very shallow, as well as materialistic. For women, good looks gets them a lot of power, and they don’t want to lose that “power” so they get plastic surgery. If you need any proof how shallow things can get, look to any womens magazines. They are 99% dedicated to how women look, and advertisements for cosmetics, plastic surgeons, how to “look hot”, etc..
While I was in college I made friends with a male model, he was only in his early twenties and undergone some plastic surgery. He wanted to do more. He was never satisfied with his appearance and often talked about it addictive. Frankly, I found it more of an obession.
I personally don’t feel the need to go under the knife for optional changes. Despite me not feeling perfect every time I look in the mirror, I am proud of myself, and what changes I do feel need to be made can be had if I can just get on a more strict workout schedule lol.
Now… what to do about my widows peak / receded hair line lol… *sigh* At least it hasn’t ever gotten any worse, was just born that way lol.
Also as a culture (especially in the US), cosmetic surgery, once thought of as taboo, has become near the point of being glamorized. Shows such as Nip Tuck, Before and After, The Swan, ABC’s “Extreme Makeover”, and MTV’s “I Want a Famous Face,” all show viewers young and old what ‘wonderful’ changes can be made with little money or effort by going under the knife.
http://www.apa.org/monitor/sep05/surgery.html
above is an interesting article mentioning the influence of TV shows.
Such people suffer from gross inferiority complex.
Hi WHYSers:
Personally, I am not terribly concerned. People should have the right to do as they please, insofar as they foot the costs and bear the responsibilities for the outcomes; that is, as long as there is no malpractise involved. In that regard, go under the knife as much as you like. If that means you come out looking like the woman who now looks like a tiger or whatever, that is your choice!
A 15 year-old girl caused controversy (especially among psychologists) in the US last month after she appeared on TV talking about her recent liposuction.
The comments on that blog are an interesting read haha.
I can’t believe this story, 15 and lipo because she had a little, yes it was a very little, amount of belly fat. I can understand the breast reduction, I have had a few friends go through the procedure, but lipo, at 15?! Are you just too lazy to eat right and exercise?! It’s not as if she was unable to do physical work, just lazy. I mean, I guess if you have the money and care to waste it…. but check out the message it sends to all of the teenage girls who are packin an extra 10-20 lbs. heck, get lipo! A life full of good habits.
What sort of role should parents play in allowing or dissallowing their children to go under the knife?
@ nelsoni,
But tell me this, inferiority complex or not, what is so wrong, really, with wanting to look like someone else? Is that not a basic desire most of us cherish at some point? Is that not why we go the gyms and get our hairs done, nails, toes and the works? With the hope that, that is going to make us look like a super fly version of ourselves? Is that the same as inferiority? I am not sure!
I just think that the extent to which the American and other publics expect parenting to become a collective national responsibility carried out by their media is, at best, a little misplaced.
Much to the contrary, plastic surgeries can, in fact, restore self esteem as we have been told! So, I would have to disagree on that one! Allow people the right to as they please/ choose, as long as it is not harming themselves and others, is what I say!
@ rawpolitics
the problem is that people won’t accept responsibility for their choices. The people who get too much plastic surgery will then start suiing the doctors. If people want plastic surgery, they should be required to have lots and lots of psychologicla evaluations first, except for obvious cases of fixing burns, a cleft lip, stuff like that.
@ Brett
Do you really think parents are the solution? The parents are the same ones buying their daughters thongs and juicy couture clothes. Their moms probably have had a bunch of plastic surgery themselves. It’s like how we can’t expect parents to encourage their kids to learn or do well in school. Parents expects teachers to do their jobs for them.
@ raw
you are very wrong about plastic surgery and self esteem. It’s becoming someone you are not. There’s a HUGE difference going to the gym and losing weight than having a boob job, or having your nose changed.
@Brett,
I recall my friend in college talking about his parent’s role in his repeated surgery. His father was of the belief that since he has the money to pay for his son’s plastic surgery and his son wants it, then go for it. Money was no object. My friend had no idea how to be satisfied with his appearance. It was never good enough and I think his parent’s not once talked with him about his self-esteem issues. Plus, I also think he was spoled rotten.
@ Steve:
Well parents surely are a starting point in instilling self esteem and love of oneself. But as you noted, with many parents acting the way they do in a materialistic and self absorbed way, it’s no wonder children turn out the same.
@Steve
Plastic surgery can increase someones self esteem. People who feel ashamed about their looks to the point can benefit. I personally like the way I look. I may have work done after kids but not to make me look younger but so I don’t shrink. Some women feel unfeminine because they have a small chest. I can’t say that I would feel the same way if I was in one of those situations. I am so glad I am not small or huge in certain areas and some people can’t stand to live with what they were born with.
I think it’s funny when people get stuff like that done. When someone gets plastic surgery and they are fishing for compliments, I do the opposite and say things like “wow, that looks really fake”, or “you paid 7 thousand for that???” or “geez, I guess the laziest of people can look good without working out”. I love the reactions.
Also, I hate when women get plastic surgery and start acting like they’re movie stars.
-Anthony, LA, CA
To clarify, I think there are defiantly some situations where Plastic Surgery is needed, but for the majority of American surgeries, it’s all rubbish for lazy, ego centric people to be more narcissistic.
-Anthony, LA, CA
@ Steve,
My comparison between loosing weight and plastic surgery or even going to the gym is really to make the point that, all this is part of a type of Capitalist ethic which teaches that human appearances are singularly more important than self worth. In that regard, how we look is of much more importance in the overall scheme of things than who we are. After all, I do not even need to know who you are, just be able to see a snapshot of you looking ‘fabulous’ and it is a done deal. Weight loss and gymned bodies are just one representation, in my view, of the sorts of extremes that compulsive plastic surgery represents in many ways.
As for self esteem, I would not be too quick to doubt whether the sense of genuine happiness occassioned by surgery is real. Some people genuinely feel that they have ‘defects’ that need to be corrected, even we cannot see them or don’t mind! State of mind is a hell of a thing!
@raw
I completely agree.
@ Steve,
As for evaluations, if that is another to get more doctors in on the money train, I say bring it on!
Seriously, though, I am not so concerned. Why? Because I think we all can recognise weird behaviour (I say that with respect!) when we see it. Some of these porn stars with the extremely large and firm chests for instance, seem a tad surreal to me! But that is what float their boats, give them full access to surgery!
As for the impact on the self esteem of young women and men, parents and caregivers will have to do a better job, it appears, with affirming their self worths from early!
@ Steve,
And, where people won’t accept responsibility, there has to be a mechanism put in place to address this. If people can prove that there was malpractise and or that they were over charged, then there is a case. All others should be thrown out if there are no bases for their admission.
To me it is very simple, really – personal choice and personal responsibility. Where there are abusers, develop a means to address those concerns and move on! I go to the gym and, quite frankly, would consider cosmetic surgery if I felt sufficiently pushed. However, I don’t. Not right now! Still, I have nothing against people who do!
@ Angella in Washington DC,
Thanks!
@ rawpoliticsjamaicastyle
remember the man called Michael Jackson?
He wanted to look like a white because he felt his natural complexion was not good enough. he has well documented health problems as a result of his exploits with plastic surgery. Every one who tries to upset the balance of nature through plastic surgeries will face the grim consequences in the future. Nature can never be cheated
@nelsoni
It was never fully explained why his complexion changed. He said it was because he had a disorder. MJ changed from a cute black boy into an unattractive white women. He has striaght mental issues that surgery cannot fix, some people are really concerned about their looks but it can get carried away when they want to change their whole appearance. However, if they want to spend their money on that I suport it. One of my friends is going to be a plastic surgeon so he will be happy.
Having worked as a professional cosmetologist for 14 years I recall a number of men who were distraught over their male pattern baldness. These men ranged in ages from middle aged to young men just entering college. A lot of them were extremely insecure about their appearance and constantly worried about, some for professional reasons, others because they thought would not be able to attract a mate; the reasons were many. Many of them would discuss the option of having hair transplant surgery to correct this natural occurrence. Like any surgery, especially optional, I always told them to visit more than one surgeon and to consider all of their options. Some, after getting to know me, would discuss their personal self esteem issues about their hair loss and after a while would abandon pursuing hair replacement surgery, as I always would talk with them to boost their self esteem. Having elective surgery is no minor decision.
Society through the ages has always been obsessed with youth. Is this just not an extension of that?
@ Angela in Washington
What else would change a cute black boy into an unattractive white women?
Micheal Jackson definitely did something to his skin. I know of most black ladies who regularly apply body lotions containing Hydroquinone to change their complexion from ebony to white. I think they call it bleaching or something …
It does not always end well for them ….
@ nelsoni,
I will go with Angela in Washington’s response to the Mj issue.
What is of more more importance to me is why are we so resistant to the idea that people should be allowed to do plastic surgery? I am unable to understand why this is an issue in the larger context of choice. I get it that this not something that people just jump into as JulieP notes above. However, of concern is the fact that we seem under the impression to be able to change your appearance, for whatever sets of reasons, is a bad thing. I am curious to know why is there that bias for the so-called ‘natural’ look?
If you recognize that getting plastic surgery can be symptomatic of mental illness, then how can you not view sex change the same way? As Angela pointed out, michael jackson did what he did due to self loathing. Transexuals are the same way.
@ nelsoni,
Who are these “most black ladies” to which you refer? And this “them” that it does not end well for? You might appreciate that there are some inherrent gaps in the argumentation above, no? I know of too many black people and people, more generally, who are completely at ease in the colour of their skin. What I don’t know is why it is that this question about Michael Jackson is somehow being generalised to “most black ladies”? What I also do not know, whether “most black ladies” are the only people guilty (?) of bleaching! That happens in almost every culture!
From what we hear the Indians are famous for this! Lighter complexion is considered an ideal there! Then, there are those Japanese (?) traditions in which brides paint the entire upper halves of their bodies white, as a mark of beauty! Is there a difference between that and the skin bleaching which you attribute to “most [of the] black ladies” that you know? Or, could it be that you have been hanging out with the wrong group of “black ladies”?
@ rawpoliticsjamaicastyle
I have absolutely no problems if people decide to alter the body via plastic surgeries. we have to look at from every possible angle and them form our objective
opinions. Remember Nature has a balance upset it , and there will be consequences. Remember all the stories about climate change etc … the balance of nature has being upset, the consequences are starting to manifest.
@ Steve,
I don’t know that I can agree with any of what you said above. I don’t know that Michael Jackson did any of what he did for the reasons you have claimed – self loathing, presumably, in the wider context of the pressures of “whiteness” (?) in American popular culture and society. Or, whether his actions are similar to those of people who do gender reassignment surgeries. What I can say is that most of us will accept that plastic surgery is not really an option for fixing whatever other issues were may have dealing with at the time of the surgery. Indeed, to the extent that that is so, surgery may even complicate matters.
However, as I am a strong believer in personal freedoms and the wherewithal to take responsibility I cannot support any project which claims to limit peoples’ choices on the premise that their choices reflect an inability to think for themselves. That, in a nutshell, sounds like the issue being addressed here. Limit the option to undergo cosmetic plastic surgery because it is a sign of mental illness. How outrageous!
@ nelsoni,
Your response above does not address any of my questions. Just a note.
As for nature and consequences, I will go back to my first response – your comments above do not address my questions to you.
I don’t think there is anything wrong with having plastic surgery but some people take it to extremes. They think that they can make themselves perfect and before you know it they don’t even look real anymore. If it’s not broke don’t fix it.
@ rawpoliticsjamaicastyle,
Let me rephrase ” I have come across many black ladies and men”. The skin bleaching I am referring to is using body lotions containing Hydroquinone with an organized schedule with the result culminating in their dark skins turning “white”. I am not talking about ceremonial bleaching or painting here. And as for hanging out with the wrong group of “black ladies”, I have travelled extensively across africa and other places where black people reside and I have always come across black people who always wanted to alter the colour of their skins. And Most of these people in question do so because they want to be “accepted”. That’s one reason why I said they suffer from inferiority complex.
@ rawpoliticsjamaicastyle,
you may want to take a look at this The widespread use of skin lightening creams in Senegal
@Nelsoni,
Your link expired, could you please repost?
When I lived in Canada and watched Canadian/American TV it became clear that there is a strong pressure upon the individual to be “perfect”: Look perfectly, cook perfectly, have the perfect home, the perfect child, the perfect Christmas tree, you name it. When you get constantly bombarded with this, and effectively are being told that the way you are now is not perfect, then this can have a very destabilizing effect on you. You have to be mentally very strong so that you don’t start thinking “Well, maybe, if I did this, then my life would be better and I would be happier…” My impression was that nobody ever tells you there that it’s good the way it is! Because that way, they cannot sell you the newest teeth-whitener, eye-liner, etc. One show that I watched occasionally kept telling the viewer that it’s practically perfectly normal to have Botox – I’d rather die than put some nerve poison into my skin!
@ julie P
The link is ok,
@nelsoni,
I’m going to have to try it from home. It could be all of the firewalls at my job that is preventing me from seeing it.
@ nelsoni,
Thanks for your link. But, I want to go back to my questions as posed. And, here is another one for you: how many of these Senegalese women/ people do you know? And, by “know” I am not refering to reading a link. So, the questions still stand, which means the comments are not only inaccurate but very much out of hand.
I find that, in our efforts to denigrate blackness, as the complete anti-thesis of whiteness, we sometimes do not formulate some of our questions properly. I have no doubts that skin bleaching happens in greater or lesser numbers amongst people who feel that they would prefer to look like someone other than themselves – whoever that is. That also happens when people visit cosmetologists and have peels and the rest of it! What I don’t get is why it is that this is being constructed as solely a “black problem” and how it is linked to cosmetic surgery of the kind which seems to warrant mental evaluations? What is really going on here?
I cannot agree with any implications suggested by your comments as posed above, notwithstanding that that might not have been your intent. The point is, the remrks are, at best, poorly formed.
@ Katharina,
Right on! Could not agree more!
Truth is, the question of self esteem has no real bearing on cosmetic surgery. Whether we feel confident about our bodies, noses, etc., does not change the fact that if we feel sufficiently pushed then we might go under the knife. I don’t have a problem with that. My question is, what explains the general resistance and why is that resistance couched in the language of mental illness?
@ Julie P & Nelsoni
You cannot view if your at work (most likey) or your computer doesnt allow cookies. If you’d like to see it go to:
https://www.vtunnel.com/ (its a proxy site, notice its HTTPS and not HTTP)
Then enter:
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118906983/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0” rel=”nofollow
Hope it helps 🙂
-Anthony, LA, CA
@ rawpoliticsjamaicastyle. If you have any alternative and scientic ways to disprove the results of the study in the link above, I will glad go through. I have supported my claim that lightening cream is wide spread in certain areas. Any one who changes the color of their skin in order to be accepted, suffers from inferiority complex. And of course I don’t expect you to agree with me that my comments are in order. Every topic under the face of the earth is debatable. And if you are to fault my comments. Please do, but with concrete evidence.
@ rawpoliticsjamaicastyle, self esteem does have a HUGE role to play in cosmetic surgery.
Since the advent of Genetically Modified crops, mankind and humna beings have sought oout every possible means to add a touch to their appearance through cosmetic surgery.
@nelsoni,
After I suffered facial injuries from a severe car accident I required some plastic surgery. During consultation with the plastic surgeon he questioned my motives for the surgery, and if I was in the right frame of mind for it, even though I was sitting in his office with a very broken nose. He wanted to be very sure that I knew what I was getting myself into and that I was ready for it. I recall telling straight to just fix the broken nose, that’s all I want. I wasn’t coming in here for a life changing event; I’m in here because of a life changing event, a car accident. He chuckled and went ahead with the procedure.
What I find really shocking are the shows where young people change their appearance to look like a celebrity. Here’s a news-flash: No matter what you do, you will NOT become Tom Cruise/Brittney Spears or whoever. You will still be you, only that you don’t recognize yourself anymore and no matter what your friends say to you directly, they’ll think that you’re weird. Rightly so.
If somebody really needs to get surgery because of some dramatic appearance issue (born or accident) then that’s one thing, but to change your appearance just so that you make it onto a show? Bad idea.
@ Julie P. That’s a very fine point. You had to go through a plastic surgery procedure because it was for a corrective purpose. Now think about some else coming in for a surgery for extend or shorten their noses not because they were in an accident or something but because they are more concerned about how much better they would look or how people’s perception of them might change for the better.
@ nelsoni,
I am less interested, with respect, with the findings of the study to which you make reference and more interested in hearing what it is that privileges these ideas? To the extent that you either choose to overlook that as my main premise or fail to see it, only serves to make the point all the more clear that there is an inherrent bias in terms of what you say above. Who are these “most black ladies”? Who is a “black lady” anyways? I mean, if you cannot see that there is something fundamentally flawed in these generalisations, notwithstanding as you say, your trips to Africa, then what is the point of the discussion?
Let me make my meaning very clear – I do not see a link between wanting to have cosmetic surgery with a mental imbalance. I also do not see that there is fundamentally anything unique about skin bleaching insofar as there is a larger, global beauty industry which pushes these ideas on people of every colour. Whether the bleaching of the skin – itself, not a cosmetic surgery procedure, is done for the sake of ritual or otherwise, does not change the fundamental point – the overarching notions of beauty which govern our realities speak to aesthetics that are not “natural”.
By “natural” here, I am referring to an alteration of the body in some form. That to me, has to be significant and therefore, of greater value in the implicit arguments of mental imbalance attribute to “most black ladies” and by extension “most black ladies and men”, in your initial post.
@ Kathrina in Ghent. Well said. Such people have no self esteem.
@nelsoni,
I had that conversation with the plastic surgeon at that time. He says he prefers working on people who need it than those who do not. He also told me that those who come in for elective surgery are also the most patients to work with. In short, they can be a real horror to work with.
Indeed, the extent to which these two things are differnt, at the very least part of a larger set of ideas about what constitutes modern definitions of beauty foregrounds my earlier point – we live in a world where Capitalism, especially pushes ideas about incompleteness as a human being, in greater of lesser proportions depending on where one is in the world.
while, I do not choose to speak for the Africans in your entry above, I do know that there are just as many other non-African peoples with all other kinds of anxieties about their bodies and notions of beauty, themselves intersected by these very ideas that “natural” is somehow “unnatural”. The extreme focus on blackness – whatever that means, then, as per your examples above, would have to be questioned, notwithstanding your efforts to correct your original comments.
In an adjacent topic,
I recently got an email praising the merits of Cindy McCain. As i read it I couldn’t believe how somebody could be so obsessed with appearance. Besides her own cosmetic surgeries, there were her charities. She was involved with a charity that helped children by giving them cosmetic surgery. Then the child they adopted was in dire straights because it had a cleft lip.
I am not saying that any of these charities or activities alone is not gallant. It just seems she is pre-disposed to physical appearance.
Generally I don’t care what a candidates spouse is about. Ultimately you have to judge whether the candidate has a history of making good decision irrelative to who surrounds them. But, this email really made me ponder cosmetic surgery and the people who are involved with it.
@ nelsoni,
I certainly was not suggesting that self esteem does not have a role to play in cosmetic surgery. In fact, we are agreed.
My point is: allow people to do as they choose so long as it is not harming others, or even themselves. What is the big deal? Can they afford it? Then, bring it on!
@ dwight in cleveland,
I love this post on Cindy McCain. Just another interesting tid bit on the politicians as Election Day draws nigh. LOL!
Seriously, the beauty culture industry is absolutely out of control! It is a like a beast – telling people to diet (excessively in most instances), exercise, wear this, do that but never advising, in a real way, on how to feel better about yourself with or without these add ons. Simply put? This is all about money, in my view!
@ rawpoliticsjamaicastyle. My point still stands. Any person from what ever race who chooses to alter the colour of their skin for any variety of reasons including acceptance has a problem with esteem. And may be I should add this Identity crisis. James Aggrey said ” any one who is not proud of his/her skin color is not fit to live. That is also debatable.
@ Raw:
My point is: allow people to do as they choose so long as it is not harming others, or even themselves. What is the big deal? Can they afford it? Then, bring it on!
But it’s important to look at the social pressures and their impacts on society. I think elective plastic surgery is reflective of social pressures and problems arising from such pressures and ‘standards’. A topic with similar roots to many eating disorders.
@ rawpoliticsjamaicastyle. I did not draw a link between cosmetic surgery and mental balance. That was steve I think.
@ nelsoni,
I certainly do not wish to suggest that you said this, outright, however, you did imply as much in your collectivisation of “most black ladies” and then the conflation between that an mental imbalance regarding comments about accceptance. More care has to be expressed in terms of how we argue. I am certainly not suggesting that you cannot do that. However, I am challenging the notion that there is as easy a link between mental imbalance, social pressures notwithstanding, and activities like skin bleaching.
From where I am sitting people are at liberty to do as they choose, social pressures aside (in response to Brett). It is a clear bias on the part of so-called mainstream society against peoples’ right to choose that allows us to feel that elective cosmetic surgery is the best if not the clearest indications of a mental imbalance. I choose to disagree and strongly too, not because I do not think there are risks but that notwithstanding such risks denying someone the right to choose is not shielding them from said risks.
The question is not whether it is risky, necessarilly, but why is it that inspite and perhaps because of these risks – mental disorders, etc, that we refuse to see some kind of benefit to cosmetic surgery? What is so fundamentally wrong with altering one’s body for the ‘sake of beauty’? Is this not almost always the case, based on all the examples above – gymns, facials, peels, perms, manicures, pedicures? Are these not all part of a wider constellation of ideas about what constitutes beauty?
And, if so, why is it so wrong (?) that one should choose to use cosmetic surgery as the ultimate option? I am always worried about when we get into these judgements where we want to tell people how to live and what is right for them? How do we know our way is the right way? I say live and let live! To each his own!
Nelsoni,
“Any person from what ever race who chooses to alter the colour of their skin for any variety of reasons including acceptance has a problem with esteem.”
Does this apply to Caucasians that chose to tan? That is altering the color of our skin, even if it is temporary. I’m not saying it is the same as permanently bleaching your skin but your statement seems to make the two equal. With my Irish heritage, my skin is VERY fair (I call myself pasty white) so I like to get some color on my skin to make me look somewhat less than Casper the ghost. Does that make me have self esteem issues?
@ rawpoliticsjamaicastyle. I would deeply appreciate it if you can provide evidence to support your arguments. @ Amy In the light of what you said, No.
@ nelsoni,
And what evidence might this be, pray? I am making a case about how you have collectived all “black ladies”, whoever they are, and have moved from that into an argument about acceptance. I am suggesting that not only is the term “black ladies” prejudicial, even when corrected to “black ladies and gentlemen” counterpointed by your claims about your travels across the African continent, it is also not true. The fact that one expresses anxieties in relation to notions of beauty which are, in the main, accepted as a sort of generic standard is no less a comment for the collectived group of “black ladies” as it is for non-black laddies – whoever those are.
I for one, do not understand the anxieties about peoples’ anxieties in relation to issues concerning beauty, as I noted before. Indeed, also as noted before, there are numerous other instances where people have engaged in all sorts of alterations of the body, over time, as a demonstration of beauty. These ideas have been with us since we were living on the savnannahs of Africa and the caves in Europe and elsewhere.
The medicalised version of body alterations to achieve idealised versions of beauty, currently, through the technology of cosmetic plastic surgery is but a development of same.
Of course, in the West there is the temptation to feel that there is a unique difference between bigger breasts with wanting ‘lighter’ skin. As far as I am concerned, it is all part of the same discourse – the domination of society by aesthetic ideals which are fairly harmless, most of the times. But which can also become very deadly when misunderstood.
Whether you choose to see a problem with your unceremonious generalisations about “most black ladies” and what you claim is “their” “need for acceptance” (read deficiency!), as evidence of this conflation that the ‘problems’ of self esteem as a response to beauty culture (skin bleaching, etc.) is not immediately of value to me.
What is of concern is that the connections in the argument, as I have read them above, are erroneous, at best. At worst, the request for ‘evidence’ as well as your intimation that you “know” “most black ladies” reflected in your claims about the African continent, as demonstrating this obvious pathology, is unacceptable! Plain and simple! There are all sorts of errors in your claims and where it does not suit you to address what I have said you ask me for evidence. Common strategy for people who refuse to acknowledge such shortcomings!
the point is, you are allowed to say what you wish. What I am not sure of, is whether what you say is either valid or correct. The claims must be able to withstand the rigours of reasoning. As it is currently, I am not sure I would agree with the premises in your argument very readily. Hence, my follow up comments.
@ rawpoliticsjamaicastyle. With all due respect you have strayed very far from the starting point. I suggest you read up my earlier posts and keep the debate within the context of it.
@ rawpoliticsjamaicastyle. For the avoidance of doubt. These are the things I have stated here. 1. I have no problems with people who modify their bodies through plastic surgery. 2. The body has a natural balance and altering it comes with consequences. 3. There is a relation between self esteem and Cosmetic surgery. 4. People who want to change the colour of their skins in the case of blacks, could use other options including body lotions containing Hydroquinones. People of other skin colors use other skin treatments applicable to their skin color. So far, your well written posts has not successfully addressed any of these points.
@ nelsoni,
You might appreciate that it was never my intent to address claims which were either made in relation to the more specious aspects of the remarks above, as far as I am concerned, or further to it. I am actually challenging an implicit set of presumptions in your post at the start in relation to who or what you claim are “most black ladies”, to speak to the larger question of the flaw in your conclusions.
From what I can see, you are not disagreed that I have interepretted these correctly. Whatever else is said further to those more than questionable, albeit prejudicial remarks, about ‘evidence’ and address really is of no consequence. This is for the simple reason that they move from a flawed premise which, itself, is doubtful, based on the above.
I feel no pains then in saying I am fairly confident that I have a fix on your meaning and am, therefore, suggesting its error by pointing to these. My claim, fundamentally, remains that the international beauty culture industries as well as notions of beauty across time, space and culture have always incorporated body alterations as a crucial part of the transforming of appearances to achieve certain ideals.
I refuse to accept that, in and of themselves, these are evidences of mental problems and that “most black ladies” – whoever these people are, are, in fact, trying to gain “acceptance” as a form of mental deficiency over and above regular societal issues – whatever those are! This being the case, the same could also be said of anyone else who traffics in similar dispositions and practises.
It is in that regard that I disagree with your convuluted reason; that is, insofar as it compresses a number of questionable claims all as part of the same premise. These need to be unpacked for clearer understanding.
You, I don’t think, have managed do that at all. More to the point, you do not seem interested in doing so, and as a result, offer me the burden of proof for your remarks. I will pass, thank you very much!
@ rawpoliticsjamaicastyle, Well written post but still misses the mark. You have had your say and I have had mine, but still your replies clearly circumvents the crux of my posts, for some reason you are elaborating on areas not covered within the context of the issues raised.
While I don’t have a problem with cosmetic surgery, I do find it sad the number of people who feel they need it. The media is constantly bombarding people with unrealistic images that we have started to think their real. I mean sure, so-and-so on the cover of a magazine is gorgeous but that picture has been airbrushed and altered after a ton of foundation was applied with a spackle, that it’s really not a good idea to use him or her as an example.
For example, a models body-type is really rare, yet when I see 20 of them is the same room (i.e. America’s Next Top Model ) I feel horrible about myself! Lipo here I come!!! Even though I know that’s not the “norm”, I can’t help but think that if I was standing next to a model in a bar, she’d be the one getting all the free drinks- heck I’d probably buy her one too!
@ nelsoni,
Unless, it were my imagination, which I am sure it is not, you are the one with the remarks that you wish to have inaugurated as ‘facts’. None of which, incidentally, are provable based on the above! So, inasmuch as you seem bent on point to my style over and above the substantive claims made in the posts above, I shall have to disagree. And, not only will I disagree in that regard, but will also offer that this is not a case of a misunderstanding at all. Much to the contrary!
Indeed, this argument that you raise seek to establish certain kinds of pathologies about blackness which I wish to both challenge as well as part company with. In fact, you choose to locate those same biases/ prejudices in the larger context of a set of questionable remarks about beauty. Whether one skin bleaches or not, I regret to add, is in no way a comment on mental stability or the lack thereof. That, I would suggest, actually requires proof, as its inverse assumes that by not bleaching one’s skin – the obvious purview of “most black ladies”, one is mentally stable! How much more ridiculous can one get?
Really, nelsoni! I continue my position! Trust me!
As a matter of fact, I find these arguments in which people make such wild claims without any basis must, somehow, be viewed as factual either because they are popular or have political traction. By which I mean, there appears little if any effort to actually offer any real insights into what they suggeset. Yet, when challenged they defensively assume that the challenger, in this case me, needs ‘proof’ or ‘evidence’ largely of the kind agreed upon to make such claims acceptable in the first place.
There is no doubting that there is much to be said in the way of esteem and physical appearances. However, what cannot be conceded, whether now or later, is whether such esteem is always negative and that, in instances where there are specific manifestations of physical appearances vis-a-vis these ideas (about beauty) that they necessarilly suggest a shortcoming of the kind which uniquely marks one as desirous of wanting this ever esoteric term “acceptance”.
What migh that mean and, who is making these claims? Your ‘evidence’, of course, is that you have met, by your own concession, “most black ladies” who, so badly in need of “acceptance” resort to skin bleaching as the manifestation of this desire. Really? Where do you get off with these claims?
Nelsoni, please!
I could even accept that you misspoke, or that you were not certain about what you had intended to say. The premise is simple, really, what is the big deal with people who get cosmetic plastic surgery?
What I hear in this is are there concerns sufficient as to warrant this crucial and who would care really? While, I understand the concerns, such as they are, about the impact of this on others I often wonder why the focus on people who are not actually get surgery and not on some likely reasons for electing to do this surgery in the first place. In that regard, I choose to disagree that all people who elect to do cosmetic plastic surgery are mentally unstable. And, I also refuse to see a connection between that and the particular case of “black” who bleach their skins as, necessarilly wanting “acceptance”. Those arguments do not follow readily from each other.
@ Raw
I really don’t think you’re getting nelsonis point here. Why don’t we change the subject onto the 08-22-2008 page 🙂
-Anthony, LA, CA
In fact, I don’t even know if those who undergo procedures of this kind are, in the first place. That is incorrect premise by any stretch! I think it makes us feel better that we are not going under the knife!
From where I sit, who really cares? And, why? That should prove to be a most interesting discussion.
@ Anthony,
I actually think I am getting nelsoni’s point. What I believe is that these kinds of careless lapses are suppose to form the basis of a real discussion. I disagree.
@ Raw
OK, we’ll be on the 08-22-2008 page 🙂 TTYL
-Anthony, LA, CA
@ Anthony,
As a matter of fact, I find this is always a concern on this blog. People make all kinds of wild statements and when asked to clarify their meanings, it is suggested that you are misunderstanding their meaning. The premise is wrong, plain and simple. And, to ask that I give an explanation of why I believe this, especially after taking issue with the logic of the remarks is a little much, no?
@ Anthony,
Do as you must! I shall pass on the invitation. Thanks, all the same!
@ Raw. At this point, it would be futile to continue this debate you with because your replies simply veer wide of the mark of the points I made. It seems that we are talking about two different issues, I have tried to bring your attention to the points I have made but you keep wandering way off the mark. None of your posts successfully addressed the points I raised and your posts don’t fall within the context of my points. I have repeatedly made clarifications which you have chosen not to respond to. It’s being nice debating with you. I am off to the 08-22-08 talking points page. Nuff Respect.
@ steve
i think it’s hilarious when men shake their fingers at women’s magazines and call them shallow. ever seen sports illustrated or ANY car magazine?
it is not women who are shallow, it’s the gaze of MEN that is horridly shallow, and in their position of power it is absolute. men have been in dominant for a long time and created their ideal of beauty for woman from that position. if women don’t conform (ie weigh under a certain amount, have good skin, styled hair and nails, new clothing, etc, and i’m not talking about being a slob) they are considered outsiders and are undervalued as human beings, be it in relationships or their careers.
women who do conform to the male standard of beauty then look down at other woman as they are in competition for value and chasing the idiocy of male given self worth (such as in marriage, a man ‘choosing you’, or not being married and being called a spinster)
women need to learn to value themselves beyond the physical and beyond the concept of men making or giving worth to a woman. we need to learn to love ourselves and get out of the social bonds that have been put into place by the male gender.
@ Line Walker
”
women who do conform to the male standard of beauty then look down at other woman as they are in competition for value and chasing the idiocy of male given self worth (such as in marriage, a man ‘choosing you’, or not being married and being called a spinster)”
I look at car magazines all the time, and they have car advertisements in them. There’s nothing about beauty products on every single page. You seem to think men are responsible for the happenings of women’s magazines, which isn’t true. And even if it were true, I don’t see any guns pointed at women’s heads. Any possibility they might be responsible for their own decision to be shallow and be overly concerned with appearance? or is it always someone else’s fault?
I wonder if there has ever been a culture where the young men and women didn’t compete over their looks, and tried to improve their appearance to others with clever guidance from the fashions mavens?
And in those countless cultures there are always a few men and women kissing their teeth at the vanity of the stylishly combed, painted, and bejeweled.
@ nelsoni,
Your responses are rather convenient in regards to your implicit criticisms of most of what I have said in terms of asking for your clarification of one very simple, though deadly point – what do you mean by: “most black ladies”? And, who is this “they” that are seeking “acceptance”, as you originally posted.
For the sake of clarity, insofar as that applies to me, I have asked this one set of questions in several different ways, none of which you have chosen to address. In addition to which, you have suggested that I am somehow ‘misunderstanding’ your clearly offensive remarks and not only have you suggested that you have proceeded to accuse me of not wanting to answer some obviously crucial point that you have been making throughout.
I, on the other hand, have indicated that I do not find your qualifications of that term sufficient insofar as you have outlined your travels across the African continent as well as the example given of Senegalese women, all of whom I can only presume you “know” as you indicated above. This being the case then there would be a perfectly valid contention that “most black ladies”, including “blacks” (your term!) are seeking this acceptance as a result of what you identified as a rampant culture of skin bleaching.
Indeed, you have even suggested that there is a difference between the particular expressions of skin bleaching in the cases you have highlighted, as the clear examples that speak to your point about mental imbalance, and other ritual forms of bleaching/ painting the skin.
Now, I do not know that these differences, such as they are, are as real as you would like to suggest in your analyis. In regards to which, there can be no denying that yours is a patently biased arguments which conveniently side step some key points which I have raised cautioning against your sweeping generalisation about what amounts to saying that all “blacks” (on the African continent), specifically Senegalese women who bleach their skin, do so in the interests of seeking “acceptance”, presumably from some nameless, unidentified others. I have made the point through out that that is not true, necessarilly or otherwise, as you have presented no evidence to bolster this claim, nor have you appropriately qualified the comments about “most black ladies”, “blacks” and “seeking acceptance”
If, indeed, that is so, then your arguments have to prove the following:
– all people of African descent, indeed, all people of any descent who engage in the techniques of skin bleaching are seeking acceptance and that,
– this acceptance is part and parcel of the unchallenged premise in your arguments about “mental imbalance”. Please note, I accept that you might not have said these words yourself. However, that you proceed to suggest the inclusion of their meanings into your thesis about acceptance and skin bleaching, a point i was clear in making is not even cosmetic surgery in the strictest sense, implies your adoption of said position.
So that, the conclusions which follow from this, in my humble opinion, poorly reasoned argument and unqualified thesis must also be flawed. In that regard, your intimations that my interventions insofar as I have responded to you throughout are, really, form over substance is doubly offensive, as is your suggestion that I have misunderstood you.
So, yes, you are welcomed to go elsewhere just bear in mind that where I am sitting this analysis especially flawed. Unlike you therefore, I take no special joy or otherwise in what you claim is “this debate”. I am simply suggesting that these convenient premises need to be revised in your position.
Please tell me whether I have misread your comments, as per the foregoing.
From where I sit cosmetic surgery is not about lack of self-esteem. It is simply about following the latest fashion.
There is always a type… type of shoe, type of dress, type of pants, type of hair, type of body…
Sadly men dictate this type because they have the power. Women are the followers.
As long as society is organized in this way, it is necessary for some woman to conform in order to compete in their work and/or group.
The question of why anyone would put their body into the hands of another person to be carved up, according to another’s idea of beauty, remains moot, as long as we remain followers.
women are to preoccupied with there appearances!!, cosmetic surgery is ok depending on what and why!..i don’t like the fought of a surgeon cutting into a body,and fat from one place being placed elsewhere on the body,such as lips.its a bit too much!
People will always look for an easy way to do things. Everyone wants a magic bullet to look better, thinner, younger, and so on. Cosmetic beauty involves serious medical procedures that are marketed as lifestyle enhancements rather than potentially dangerous surgery.
Hello all,
Well i’m not against cosmetic surgery if there is something urgent, like distort, or embarrassing thing… or etc, i believe that people must do anything they could to be good looking, and to prevent him/herself from being in an embarrassing situations.
But what is happening here in our (out-of-real) world is that people turned to be empty minded, they got bored of everything , even their looks, whenever they find one did something, they rash to do the same, without knowing anything about the consequences. I’m against doing these surgeries for no reason.
Old age is not a shameful thing, i find no reason to do cosmetic only to look younger, cuz i feel the surgery will make a woman only looks weird, not beautiful. God has created us like this: child, young, and then old, and every age has its own beauty… In fact what surprises me is that young girls are making the surgery more than old women!!! even though these young girls are beautiful. (actually, i feel sorry for these young girls, they have no confident they are only followers)
I’ll talk about the Arabic world, (cuz i know it better) as soon as one celebrity (usually male or female singer) wears something, or does a cosmetic surgery to him/herself, we find all the Celebrities , then all people just do the same, if one takes a look to the Arab Celebrities he’ll immediately recognize that they are all alike, they are all making the same cosmetic surgery. Of course they didn’t need it, but they only follow appearances.
yours truly,
Zainab from Iraq
Capitalism and modern society at it’s “best”? Cosmetic surgery has it’s place, but I think that in some cases, more conseling should be done as the results can vary.