Hamas has ended its six month ceasefire today, which for the umpteenth time brings the search for a Middle East peace process back into the forefront of many of our minds. Jonathan Freedland is a leading commentator in the UK and has written that a new approach and a new reality need to be acknowledged. He’ll be live on the show to explain his reasoning and answer your questions and comments.
THE NEW REALITY THAT JONATHAN FREEDLAND DESCRIBES
A four state problem involving Israel, Gaza, the West Bank and Judea, the latter being an extension of the Israeli settlements in the Palestinian territories that already exist.
A POSSIBLE NEW SOLUTION
Try and negotiate a deal between Israel and the whole of the Arab world, rather than just between Israel and the Palestinians.
Full Jonathan Freedland article here.
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BBC World Have Your Say 
I think that if the four are included as one, we’d have a problem of internal aggression since I feel it would be against the will of most of the minorities i.e. Gaza and the like. If Israel would assist these states to develop as if they were her own, I’d say things would be better, since in my opinion, Israel has the larger blame of the conflict in the middle east.
While I think the Jewish settlements make peace less likely, to say Israel cannot have them would be very hypocritical, especially given most people (at least in N. America) are settlers themselves. Who is to say that Jews aren’t allowed to live there? But from the Palestinian perspective , it is their land, but imagine if we in the west said “stay out, nobody is allowed to live here but us”. Not very politically correct, but for some reason we tolerate it when it is done not in the west, but we ourselves are settlers or their descendants. The protestants in Northern Ireland are, Americans are, Canadians are….
I honestly don’t see how even a peace treaty with all of the arab nations would hold over time. Most of those nations have very oppressed people, with dictatorial governments, so they are ripe for an islamist overthrow some day. I think it’s absolutely inevitable, and do you think an islamist government is going to honor a peace treaty with Israel?
The problem that has, is, and will continue to plague the middle east is that they have a completely different perspective on political structure.
We are vehemently opposed to separation of church and state in the west. They are equally opposed to not having spiritual influence in their politics. In the Middle Eastern Muslim countries their allegiance lies with their God over their country, here in the west it is the other way around. Their political structure is more bottom up then we in the west. Our federal laws supersede our state laws, our state supersede our local laws, and our local laws supersede our family laws. Many nations in the Islamic identified countries observe laws in the opposite direction.
4 state, 6 states, 100 state solutions? Where do you want t stop it? As soon as you accept that, the 4 will break into 8.
The end of the conflict between the Palestinians and Israel should be based on the respect of mutual rights. Ceasefires between the two sides is just a prolongation of the conflict which resumes once it ends.
A four state solution isn’t the right solution as that will mean continuous division in the area. Thee will be continuous suspicion between them, especially between hard-line Palestinians and hard-line Israelis. At the same time the establishment of a Palestinian state is now just a wishful thinking as it has been postponed since the Oslo peace agreement in 1994 on many occasions.
Almost each year after this date there has been optimism that the Palestinians can have their state. But the differences between the Palestinians themselves on one hand and Israel on the other hand has put this plan on halt.
A small reminder ; have a look at Jonathan’s article and share your views on whether you think what he says might work. I won’t approve stuff of the “it’ll never end til X does Y and that’s the end of it” variety. Feel free to take that somewhere else.
all best
Mark
I am curious to understand how a little 4th state filled with Jewish Extremists could be an economically viable proposition for statehood. No I don’t buy into a 4 state solution it will only result in more problems.
Israel needs to comply with International Law and pull back the settlements to within its UN recognized borders.
Hamas just needs to stop lobbing rockets over the border, and recognize the state of Israel.
Only then will there be a prospect of peace and a proper life for Oppressed Palestinians.
Seems simple doesn’t it.
I would rather like to propose a three-state solution. The states will be Israel, Palestine and city-state Jerusalem. The latter will be managed by a joint Israeli-Palestinian administration or commission, with an agreement on allocation of administration positions, revenue, et cetera. As part of the 3-state solution, Palestinian refugees will be allowed to return to the state of Jerusalem, based on an agreed criteria as part of the settlement.
Hi, everybody! 🙂
I’d go for the second option, negotiation’s always been the best choice. The problem is that none of them want to give up, and I guess this option is less likely to take place now that they’ve resumed attacks.
A four state solution is not the most convenient, but I’ve got the feeling it’s one of the strongest possibilities. 😦
Cheers!
A four state solution isn’t the answer as that will mean more interventions and influence from the outside. Hamas will look to the Iranians (Israel’s enemy number one in the Middle East) for its protection and support. Fattah will mainly rely on the West and moderate Arab states. As such, the problem will continue as it’s unlikely to create trust between all the four parties. The conflict will continue under different forms. But Lasting peace is hard to achieve in view of the intransigent views from all sides. It’s like asking Gaza to unite with Egypt and the West Bank to unite with Jordan and to leave the rest of the land to Israel.
In case of the establishment of Gaza and Judea as states, it will be interesting to see how diametrically religiously opposed entities can survive and coexist and if Israel West Bank can really make good neighbours.
I have a question for Jonathan Freedland :
Won’t the creation of Gaza and Judea as states deepen extremism in this area? In other words the two states will become the centre of extremism which can create even more divisions between liberal and religious Israelis on one hand and the liberal and religious Palestinians on the other hand?
I can buy a “three-state solution” (Israel, Gaza, West Bank) because of internal dissent between the Palestinian Arabs, but I think Freedland is overstating the case for a separate state of Judea. If Israel can negotiate its eastern border to include the Jewish towns in Judea-Samaria (the West Bank) there will be no break-away, no matter how disappointed the Zionist idealists are with the Israeli government. If the negotiations go the other way and these communities end up on the Arab side of the border, I expect many to demand that they be allowed to stay on as a Jewish minority. The argument will go: “Israel has an Arab minority, so why can’t Palestine accept a Jewish one?” I don’t speak for the stability of that arrangement, though—but I don’t see it leading to the creation of another Jewish state.
Can someone with better knowledge of Hamas/Fatah politics or the situation in the West Bank & Gaza give an opinion of how likely a split Arab state is?
But Mark,
The closest this article comes to suggesting anything is “Soon we might speak of Israel, the West Bank, Gaza and a new, zealous, rebel entity: call it Judea. We are not quite at that point yet.” That is not a suggestion. The rest of this article is filled with assumptions, obvious observations, and possible outcomes. How do you comment on a “plan” that has no substance itself. The Israel/ Palestinian conflict’s history is littered with planed based on unsubstantial assertions.
If u want a lasting peace , its either Jerusalem becomes international property or if an earthquake swallow up Jerusalem. Then there is nothing to fight for.
Solution #1 won’t work, since it would require the Arab world to put up with what the “Militant Jewish settlers in Hebron” (as the article puts it) are doing. This just introduces another conflict zone, which will repeat the cycle we’ve seen in Gaza and the West Bank.
Solution #2 MIGHT work, but it would require the Arab world to be more accepting of Israel’s right to exist than it currently is. There are several Arab countries that not only refer to Israel as “Occupied Palestine”, they will refuse entry to anyone with an Israeli stamp in their passport. Getting these countries to negotiate with Israel would be an uphill battle.
The unavoidable fact here is that there is more than one religion that views that area as its holy land. That fact alone is probably always going to generate conflict.
Of both of these options, I think option 2 would be the best. However, I am not sure that it would work because Israel is one little place sandwiched in among………unwilling peacemakers. It seems that a treaty with the entire arab world would make them vulnerable.
The introduction about Jonathan’s article did not enthuse me to read the article in detail. I guess he is trying to drag things that would result into utter confusion. If I remember correctly, Arafat has missed a golden chance of solving the problem during Clinton’s time. I think the Palestinians should pick up from where Arafat failed and try to move forward. My belief is that we would not see peace in the middle east even after the emergence of separate Palestinian country.
HI WHY’s Gang James the virile Kenyan Here
A 4 state WHAT! it will never work, reason being, you can split people all you want but if the ideology never changes violence never stops. The ideology of the 2 Palestine states would still be we see Israel as an eyesore. The ideology of Israel to other Arab states would be, they threaten our peace. For Judea well it would just be part of an already complicated bloody puzzle.
I only think only GOD can bring peace to middle east, only I dont know how?
the solution is none of this,there would never be a solution.
Well, I’ve read the Freedland article twice and all I can see is that he seems to propose is rewarding and regularising the most extreme elements. For a 4 state solution to work as Freedland describes, Hamas would have to agree to the same treaty as a small nation composed of the most hard-line Israelis. Nope.
Extremists on both sides need to be marginalised by more sensible voices, not rewarded with nationhood.
Instead of having a four state problem, why not have a one state solution? Combine Israel, Gaza and the West Bank, make it one country, where people are free to come and go as they choose, live where they choose and worship in the way that they choose
The time for even a two-state solution may have passed, due to Israeli intransigence, continued settlement-building and demographic changes. In time (yes, it will take a long time) the only viable solution is a single unitary state in Palestine/Israel with equal rights for Jews, Muslims, Christians, etc.
The Western world rightly criticizes Islamic states such as Iran and Saudi Arabia for their exclusiveness. Why then do we accept a “Jewish state?” Israelis and Palestinian Arabs are more alike than different. They share longstanding cultural and historical roots that can transcend the modern divisions created by colonialism, Zionism and Arab nationalism.
I just got an email update saying that Jonathan Freedland is talking about a ‘four state problem’ rather than proposing a ‘four state solution’ (which he doesn’t think possible).
Very well, but still I say he has much overstated his case. Israel has among its Haredi (“ultra-Orthodox”) residents many who oppose the existence of the state; will Freedland consider them a fifth state in the confusion? Are the Arab neighborhoods within Israel a sixth state? Et cetera, & cetera.
The many political divisions within Israel do not each qualify for separate consideration. The battles between Fatah & Hamas, each controlling a definable region, just might.
As long as Hamas sticks to its charter and remains a power in Gaza, I don’t see how any peace agreement that includes Gaza can be made.
The Hamas charter, adopted in 1988, specifies: “reinstitution of the Muslim state,” “over “ever inch of Palestine.” It states that “so called peaceful solutions are contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement.” It goes on to state “renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion,” and says “There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad.”
Before any peace can be made, all the parties must actually be seeking peace and be open to compromise. The Hamas charter specifically denies the possibility of either.
Donnamarie in Switzerland
4 state side by side in my opinion is not the right solution. We must understand that Hamas will continue to attack Israel on grounds that the entire land that Israel currently occupies is for Palestine.
The extremist israelis will always think that the land is their God given right because it so in their holy books.
FATAH and Hamas will continue in fighting to prove to the outside world which group has more internal support than the other.
Solution: Take the two group of people from the middle east and carry them to two separate continents for settlement. Resettle peace loving people to that spot.
Freedland is dreaming. No accord – not 22 states plus one or 4 states – is going to work because the people wouldn’t believe it would work. You can establish all the borders you want but you can’t de-institutionalize hatred or mistrust.
@ Neal
People criticize Saudi arabia not because it is a muslim state, but because it is so intolerant of other religions. All other religions are forbidden there. You cannot legally openly practice any other religion there. Non muslims are not even allowed to enter Mecca. you have to be a muslim to set foot enside of the entire city. That’s not exactly what Israel is like.
‘four state problem’ ‘four state solution’
this regional conflict will ever come to an end? the solution can be found in God’s hands.
I believe there should be a 5-state solution, with the 5th one populated entirely by angry monkeys.
Maybe you can see this as a radical belief, but I disagree 100%.
What I do feel is that there should be a one state deal. I don’t mean the disintegration of Israel, what I do mean is negotiations to start whereby Israel, the Gaza strip and the west bank all become one nation with Palestinians members of the nation of Israel parliament and government.
What you would call that country is all a part of the negotiation – but once you have all people living as one nation then you can get to dealing with the extremists on both sides.
Will that ever happen? I doubt it, but to me it is the only real, viable solution.
The primary source of conflict in Middle East is NOT between religions, it is between Secular (non-religious/scientific) and Fundamentalist (of any religion) society. The U.S. (along with Middle Eastern States the U.S. props up) is increasingly Fundamentalist. Unlike the U.S., Europe’s future is with Secular society. Europe is the main force behind secular society in the world today. Europe is the only force capable of ruling the Middle East with secular state mechanisms. The U.S. will lose its grip on control in the Middle East. Again, it is NOT about Jews or Muslims, it is about REALITY based society VS. FAITH based society. EUROPE is the only REALITY based force in the world left.
I note that religion is the problem.
They are all of the same “One God” Abrahamic religion and that religion has them divided and murdering each other. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all worship the same God and that God has them murdering each other.
Some God!
I would rather like to propose a three-state solution. The states will be Israel, Palestine and city-state Jerusalem. The latter will be managed by a joint Israeli-Palestinian administration or commission, with an agreement on allocation of administration positions, revenue, et cetera. As part of the 3-state solution, Palestinian refugees will be allowed to return to the state of Jerusalem, based on an agreed criteria as part of the settlement.
Israel needs to become a true secular democracy, instead of an antiquated religious state run by a religiously defined group. Italy has the vatican, Israel needs its own “vatican” to protect the Jewish religion, but the rest of the country needs to be run like a modern democracy, with votes for Israeli Arabs, instead of oppressing them. The fact is a separate state for the Palestinians is ridiculous unless it is economically viable, and without water, geographically valuable features, like a port, or enough fertile land for agriculture, or other natural resources, a Palestinian state is doomed to remain little more than a jail, with the Israelis as warders.
We need Finland to represent the EU to negotiate a balance between secular and fundamentalist forces in the Middle East. But first the U.S. has to be crushed and kicked out of the Middle East by the EU (economically). Both England and the U.S. are primarily responsible for the blood shed in the Middle East (historically and present). Get them out, put in a secular EU force that can negotiate between secular and fundamentalists…..pesto! We have peace and real globalization again!
These discussions always leave me so angry. My Grandmother was born in Palestine and was forced to leave the village she and her family occupied for generations because Israeli soldiers and settelers claimed the land as their own. As the film “Gaza Strip” by James Longley depicts, the Israeli’s are pushing the Palistinians into smaller and smaller areas, reservations if you will. In response to the claim that Israel is being menaced on all sides by Arab states like Gaza or the West Bank, I ask this: How can the occupier be the victim?
Why, if the Israeli’s get their own state, the Arabs can’t?
There can never be a solution between Israel and the Muslim World so long as there is religious fanaticism -on both sides.
A four-sided problem maybe? A four-sided solution, doubtful. The causes of the division are many, however, the primary issue is undoubtedly religion. The idea of creating talks between Israelis and Arabs is a hopeful solution. But to go into such talks with a preconceived “four-state” solution is retrograde to the process of peace.
Your speaker from Gaza is ignoring the fact that the missile barrage from Gaza started immediately after Israel withdrew and not as retaliation for Israeli attacks. It would be interesting to hear him deal with that question.
What did people think was going to happen when Bush was elected and basically abandoned the entire peace process?
Oops, my last post should read:
The world is fortunate that they can’t get along.
The three groups of the One God religion could rule the world if they got along with each other and they are all of one of the nastiest religions the world has ever experienced.
The world is better off without them!
I know this isn’t relevant but Bryan will you please send me an email.
I want to ask you about a Podcast I have started listening to. (Marty Roberts Show) who lives in Israel. He talks about this ceasefire.
Re “” Why, if the Israeli’s get their own state, the Arabs can’t? “”
——————————————————————————————————————————————-
——– Have you been asleep the whole of your life? Israel is surrounded by largely hostile Arabs, out numbered 50-1.
Arafat was offered an Israeli signed final peace settlement as part of the last stage of the Oslo accords began in 1993. The agreement was backed by the US, EU, and UN, signed, sealed, and delivered to Arafats quivering hand in the 2000 negotiations.
He threw it into the trash and started up the infitada, a wave of more than a hundred suicide bombers sent into Israel, causing closure of travel, their borders, economic trade, and security operations together. Net result is the massive “Wall” being built, Palestinian anarchy and self genocide, and the forcible takeover by Hamas of Gaza.
There would be peace between Palestinians and Israelis if all those uninformed and vitriolic folks would join you in a long enough nap so that the agreement could be struck.
4 state solution is D.O.A. Half the Jews living in Israel are those and their descendents who were forced to abandon their homes and assets to flee for their lives in Muslim lands after Israel was formed. Palestininans and Arabs in general don’t give a fig about these Jews who have no right of return nor desire to return to hostile Islamic states..
The old testament says, I’m not really sure where but I know it’s in there. Before the Messiah comes all the nations of the world will make war on Israel and the messiahs arrival will bring peace. I think the Jews are trying to make war on the whole world to bring forth this Messiah. Well so far all they have created is a mess. I think the Jews should have land promised to them by the United States in Texas on the basis of close to same latitude and nearly same climate. They leave the Palastinians land and go to promised land in Texas.Name it new Jerusalem.
All the fighting and deaths are for what again? Is real estate really that important? I think not.
This is a phony suggestion, seeking to promote a phony solution.
The Saudi Peace plan, including the removal of “settlements” is the answer.
As persuasion, halting all American aid: 10 billion loan “guarantees”, 3 billion a year, military aid is the inducement.
Prosecution of the responsible Israelis for genocide toward the Palestinians might begin to awaken a sense of justice.
Before we take up sides, it is good to remember history. Many lines have been drawn since then, it is not as simple as drawing up some more lines to fix it. ALL of the people must be compensated for their loss as a civilization at the hands of Imperialism, where this mess began. Only then will their be true accord.
Britain conquered Palestine from the Turks in 1917-18. First Her Majesty’s Government promised Palestine to the Jews in the Balfour Declaration in 1917, and then again in the League of Nations Mandate for Palestine of 1922, in which it solemnly accepted as “a sacred trust of civilization” to “be responsible for placing the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home.” Then it repudiated that promise in a “White Paper” of 1939, which announced her intention to allow only 75,000 Jewish immigrants into Palestine over the next five years (this as World War II and the Holocaust was just beginning) and after that to allow no further Jewish immigration without Arab consent. The White Paper also placed severe restrictions on the purchase of land by Jews. And it promised the Palestinian Arabs that Palestine would become an independent Arab state within ten years. All this was in flagrant violations of the League of Nations Mandate for Palestine; the League of Nations Mandates Commission noted this, and refused to ratify the White Paper. Britain implemented it anyway…………….
http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/05/triple_cross_how_britain_creat.html
Why not make Jerusalem the world state where the United Nations works out of.
Have a Nation like Finland establish the boundaries for both Isreal and Palistine.
Start with the boundaries as they existed pre 1967 being the starting point. Add a few lines based mostly on natural features of the land. Let Arabs and Jews decide under which state government they want to dwell.
Jewish settlements in occupied territory get to be Arab citizens if they want to stay there….otherwise leave and give those settlements to the Palistinians.
Arabs who want to stay inside Isreal remain Isreali citizens.
Connect Gasa with the West Bank with a reasonable corridor of land for trade and useability issues.
Finland, or a non interested nation with no real interest in the situation; has to have the descression to waste areas, that are used by terrorists who launch attacks from either state.
Massive B-52 Arc-Lite strikes over a total area, at least a mile radious out from center of missile launch site………if there are any attacks from irrisponsible elements.
A totally neutral party must be in charge of Arc-liting an entire region to make it unthinkable for either side to launch an attack. When I say attack..I say fuel air bombs so deadly that all life in the vacinity will be wiped out, which would really cause the citizens to insist on terrorists not using their neighborhood to launch attacks from. Consequences really do have to be rather harsh…beyond all reason.
Isreal has to ensure that Palistines economy does well or they have to supply all food, shelter materials and energy to make the Palistine State work.
It is long past time for the two state solution to come to pass. Do it by asking a neutral party to be the enforcer of peace. Consequences for both sides not working to ensure peace will have to be substantial.
troop on the Oregon Coast.
the second paragraph should have quotations. Sorry WHYS
This was a ceasefire that wasn’t, as there were frequent missile and rocket firings from Gaza. The Hamas Islamists used the lull to stockpile weaponery for the restarting of hostilities. They have no interest in a peaceful solution, only the demise of the only Jewish state.
There is no solution in sight and no gimmick, such as a 2/3/4 states, that will bring such an outcome. The PA and Fatah, which few reporters can even mention without inserting the word moderate before their names, isn’t anywhere near moderate enough to make peace. If you examine in detail the composition of the PA or Fatah, the nature of its leadership, the articles in its newspapers or its television shows, the slogans at its rallies, the contents of its textbooks, the themes of its officially appointed clerics sermons, and so on, the combined inability and unwillingness to make peace could not possibly be more obvious.
This phony “peace process” continues to ignore The Real Core Issue: Islam, and the refusal, by Muslims, properly following the texts and tenets of Islam, to countenance the permanent existence of an Infidel state, whatever its size, on land once ruled by Muslims, land and, what’s more, on land that is smack in the middle of Dar al-Islam.
I think Lawrance of Arabia is still alive, just the approach is optomistic. Religion never be a problem in the region unless we use it as a shield & abuse it for our political & economic purposes.
If Isriel is demanding more then 1967 boundries sound abusive behaviour to live in a society, where majority already gave up Judaism rights by way of converting to islam in old days.
Any way consperious revival of Judaism sound like sucide.
There is no simple solution- but wait, actually there is. It’s called PRACTICING the Golden Rule in our daily lives. This is the solution to most of our problems since the Golden Rule is recognized in practically all religions. But, you say, this is unrealistic, too idealistic and maybe even dangerous. A variation of the Golden Rule is, trust, but verify. If enough of our leaders did this, many problems would disappear. OK, call me naive, but its the only way to REAL peace.
By the way, I do like Manx Shearwater’s solution. Scroll up to read it. Thanks for the levity, Manx
First, it’s refreshing to read the care and intelligence in most of the posts here. Myself I agree most with Donnamarie’s observation, that as long as one major party in the region, Hamas, specifically states that it does not want peace with, but only the destruction of, another major party, Israel, peace is not possible.
I also agree with those who cite the disproportionate power of religion as an impediment to peace. Religion may have some place in the modern human psyche, but since we are no longer cave dwellers, since we have come to understand the math and the mechanics of life and of the universe, we no longer need to sublimate reason to superstition.
And reason would say that peace is preferable to war, especially now, when our scientific prowess has given us weapons that can end all life. Such weapons in the hands of religious fanatics will doom us all. Actually I’m amazed that a bomb from Russia or Pakistan hasn’t already destroyed Tel Aviv or Washington or London or New York. We really need to figure out a way to overcome the hatred in those who desire to do these things. Evidently religion can’t do that. In fact, just the opposite.
There 22 Arab nations dreaming of destroying the Jewish state and Jews. How is it possible to have peace as long as there mission is to subjugate and control others?
On our way to the new year, far away is the new year,
be not afraid of the plans that were made ,as we are walkin in a winter wonderland.
In the meadow we can build a snowman, we can paint his face like colon powell,
he will say are you married she will say no man! Because I dont marry snow so ugly and brownnnnnn.
So later on they will conspire, as they dream by the fire, about the friends that were made, across the oceans they played, walkin in a winter wonderland.
Oh yes, we are so happy tonight ,and filled with delight
Walkin in a winter wonder laaaaaaand.
Just a little festivus for the restofus. Yes republicans
Zzzoney
has any one of you asked God what HIS will is in all this?
There is a one state solution. It’s called The Middle East.
. peace for everybody!
How can this 4 state solution; going to work under…
Ex:
one state for israel, one state for the palestinians and etc…..
I wish and hope that any ideas will work towards; making peace in the Middle East.
Dennis
the solution is for israel to stop pretending that it is the underdog in this conflict and for israeli/palestinian arabs to stop having negative fear of jews..afterall,everyone here on earth is sitting on areas formally inhabited by other people and even dinosaurs as said by scientists.there must be one israel or palestine..the names are one.
uthiru/tambua,hamisi,kenya.
I look at Gaza, a ghetto created by the Israeli’s, and ask how a people who suffered repression, pogroms, the holocaust can condone this? I look at the camps and the displacement of hundreds of thousands, the imprisonment of tens of thousand of Palestinians and ask the same.
Peace? More than once it has been said, peace will come when there is respect, equality, equity.
Palestine, the home of the Palestinians, was occupied in 1948 by force, by acts of terror and war, by Zionists supported by the US and the British. Peace comes when occupation ends.
What astounds me, there are still Palestinians willing to share their home after 60 years of occupation.
Stephen, Your historical knowledge of the Middle East is non existent.
For example to say that “Palestine, the home of the Palestinians , was occupied in 1948 by force,” is total nonsense. a) Palestine as a nation has never existed. b) Palestine was a British Mandated territory following the collapse of the Ottaman empire. c) This territory had an ethnic mix including Jews and Arabs. d) Current day Jordan was part of that territory, but was hived off by the British and given to the Hashemites. e) Gaza was occupied by Egypt and Judea & Samaria (West BanK) by Jordan In 1948.
Get your facts before spouting.
We’re not getting into a big general historial debate here. Sorry. If you post in that vein, we’re not going to publish. let’s keep it to jonathan’s original points.
Then talk about the Saudi (Arab) Peace Plan.
Essentially, a return to the 1967 Green Line and internationalization of Jerusalem, compensation for the Palestinians driven from their homes.
The “settlements” are the key to peace and must be removed.
Balkinization of Palestine is a tired ploy to destroy any hope of a viable Palestinian state..The Jews did in fact share the area with Arabs during the British Mandate but their numbers swelled geometrically with the invasion by Zionists after WW 11 .The British attempted to stem that tide but were attacked by the terrorist gangs ,Hagganah, Stern ,and Irgun who were the shock troops of the Isreali invasion.The British ended their Mandate and the slaughter of the Palestinians began .Ben Gurion stated unequivocally that the aim of the Jews was to have a “Final Solution” to the :Palestinian Problem by driving the Arabs out ,over time .The ongoing settlements are a proof of that policy which is unchanged .The so called “reality on the ground ” is a euphormism for complete Isreali control and occupation of Palestine . Plans will come and go but the colonization of the West Bank and the suppression of Gaza will go as long as the US continues to allow its Congress to be cowed by the Isreal Lobby to continue funding this aggression.Ultimately the issue wil be settled by war ,at first conventional ,then nuclear with horrific consequences.The folly and arrogance of politicians hixstorically brings misery to the world..
This whole thread is just so much “hot air”. There is no simple solution. The whole Palistinian/Jew problem stems from before 1940. How can you compencate a family who were forcibly removed from Jaffa in 1948 and then spent the next 60+ years in a squalid refugee camp in the north of Lebonon. Dont look at islamic extremist look at weak politicians, European, American and Middle Eastern. Instead of looking for a black and white solution, suggest a way farward by going right back to the root of the problem. Do not forget this is about justice to all former residents of Palestine, and to the current residents of Israel. There is an acceptable answer to the problem. The hard bit is to find it. How about you people out there putin up a few suggestions. Surely of 600,000,000 or so souls just one acceptable solution could be found. GO FOR IT!!!
Ros, “We’re not getting into a big general historial debate here. Sorry. If you post in that vein, we’re not going to publish”.
Why is it then, that you allowed postings on historical matter following your comment? Are we not allowed to respond to these comments, as they may reflect inaccuracies. Why was my comment in response to LesMajestey
December 22, 2008 at 19:26 not posted. It would seem there is censorship and bias in your action.
lesMajesty is Xie Ming, who was banned, yet got approved, interesting.
A two state solution is the most viable, simplicity always trumps the elaborate, and extremists should never be catered to. Israel, however, must be made to obey international law and quit hiding behind its existential arguments and old wraiths of the Holocaust. In the very near future, Israel’s Arab minority will become its majority and whatever fibre of morality Israel can claim will vanish with the emergence of an apartheid Israel.
I think i have came up the solution:
1) State for the Israel
2) State for the Palestians
And, how can it be made up for the 4-state solution? Just figuring out the way?
~Dennis~
Why Four?.
Since time begin, the Jews have been chased around the World. In Israel they have built a viable country to make the Israelis a home where they have settled and prospered. It is a country where many races and nations have melted under the Israel Flag, where even Arabs have felt at home.
They are being attacked daily by no other than Islamic terrorists, that are not even welcomed in thier own areas. (It would be interesting to listen to the Palestine People in thier own four walls). The truth is that Hamas were elected on the re-coil from Arafat, and have bought nothing but misery to the Palestine people.
Every country in this world have radical groups and movements which in the main do not result to violence-violence being the alternative to to a non functioning diplomatic capability. Israel has the right to use force, and as much as she wants. Hamas would not hesitate to apply everything, if she had it, and it is irrelevant to whom started. Anyone that thinks different has not woken up to reality. I have had enough of this-if the Israelis kill its murder, if Hamas does its self protection.
The Christmas Dream is over, were on the road to reality. God help us all through the 2009 to don’t know when morass.
A good friend of mine, very well educated, with both feet on the ground, asked me a question. John what would you rather have, Politicians or Bankers ?.
Any one got an answer.
John in Germany.
The peace in the region should be brokered by all the peoples in the region on the grassroots level–relying on the governments has not worked so far; QED.
Peace has not manifested so far, because all of them, the “bad” and the “good” guys, have individually different ideas of what “peace” should look like, and they go to war again and again to enforce their idea of what peace should be like.
All the differences of what all the people on all sides of the conflict think that peace should be like should be peacefully resolved in models that would be inputtable by all involved in the conflict till a, to all optimally acceptable, portrayal of a peaceful co-existence is achieved. It would cost no lives, it would avoid wastage of time and resources. We have all the knowledge and technology to do this kind of modeling–the costs would be truly negligible.
More at “Designing a Lasting Peace” – http://www.modelearth.org/peace.html
Thank you – Hearthstone.
THE NEW REALITY THAT JONATHAN FREEDLAND DESCRIBES
A four state problem involving Israel, Gaza, the West Bank and Judea, the latter being an extension of the Israeli settlements in the Palestinian territories that already exist.
*Revised Comments*
I think that the 4-state solution that is being proposed by Jonathan Freedland, is something of a good idea…..
~Dennis Junior~