An interesting topic that got us talking in our editorial meeting today; the National Health Service in the UK have released new guidelines for the treatment of Attention Deficit and Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD). It advises doctors and parents to avoid the use of Ritalin (Methyphendiate) in all but the most extreme cases and stop its use altogether for those under the age of five. Should it be up to the parents to decide whether or not their children take the drug?
Children with ADHD have extreme difficulty concentrating, learning and sitting still. Ritalin is a stimulant which is commonly prescribed as a treatment. It has courted some controversy in the past due to the possible side effects it produces, one of which being stunted growth.
Ritalin use in the US has boomed in recent years, where 3-5% of children have been prescribed with the drug. Is ADHD recognised as a condition in your country? And if so how is it treated?
ADHD is also being diagnosed among children in other parts of the world. Over 15 million children in China are believed to suffer from the condition. How is it dealt with where you are from?
If you are a parent of a child with ADHD what is your experience? How should we deal with children who have ADHD? Is the drug a saviour for parents with children suffering from the condition?
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BBC World Have Your Say 
ADHD, another made up disease so that drug companies can make money….
Fat people have robust appetite syndrome, so we could make drugs for that.
I bite my nails and grind my teeth, so I’m sure they could create a drug then come up with aname for my affliction so they can make money off of it.
I’m curious, how did human beings get along for tens of thousands of years before there was Ritalin?
This is a related story:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/7633761.stm
Catholic school refusing to allow HPV vaccines for students.
When I was in school, there were mandated vaccines, but they were for easily contagious (airborne) virii. Unless there are orgies in class, a vaccine like this has no business being mandatory for students like MMR, or smallpox. This is people with a liberal agenda wanting to get their way.
Lets get our facts correct BBC. ADHD IS Genetic. It is not caused by video games or anything You could have found this out by a google search.
I have had ADD all my life. Stimulation is what anyone with ADD needs. It is actually only a disorder if you decide to look at it that way. There are SOO many aspects to look at this condition as it will effects these childrens lives in many ways. Many of them will become overcome with sever anxiety in early adulthood. The condition needs to be looked at with a bigger picture. 1 in 4 or 5 people in America are ADD, would assume its the same anywhere though.
I think there is a trend in the US that if your child is hyper he or she must have ADHD. Many parents and doctors want to “fix” the problem with a pill instead of taking time to address the whole situation. Medication can help, but it’s shouldn’t be the first and only option. Children aren’t zombies; I babysit sometimes and at the end of it I am completely tired! You can’t expect children to be calm and listen to what you say if the environment is not one that is calm. Sometimes the environment is actually what is causing the problem. I think some parents want to say their child has ADHD when they really have I don’t mind/won’t sit still because they let me run wild syndrome! 😀
@ Jennifer
You act like this is new?
People always want a quick fix and not have to do hard work. Why exercise when you can take a pill?
This is just more systematic laziness.
This is people with a liberal agenda wanting to get their way.
“This evil belongs to all of Middle-Earth. They must decide now how to end it. The time of the Elves is over”
DOWN WITH THE LIBERALS!!!!
[/sarcasm]
If someone doesn’t want to protect themselves against cervical cancer and other complications which can potentially be avoided with a vaccine against HPV, let them go unvaccinated, its their cervix… Though if they strictly followed their religion, this all wouldn’t be much of an issue now would it? 😉
ADHD? i must have suffered and still suffer from that. jeeze i had an attention span of a goldfish on meth, when i was a kid, although i never run riot or became uncontrolable. still today i need breaks to get up from what i do to get back on track. OR is this just normal????
steve,
a mouthguard will do just fine. ups the darn dentist makes money. seriously it is actually really good
@ Steve
That vaccine is an amazing achievement and young girls should have access to it. It’s horrible that the school will not work with anyone who is trying to do what’s best for their students. The reason they wanted to work with the school is because they have to administer the vaccine before a girl has sex for it to be effective.
@ Brett
The point is that liberals want to force this vaccine, which only enables promiscuity, which provides a false sense of security given there are hundreds of strains of HPV, and this doesn’t protect against all of them, let alone all of the cancer causing strains. It’s like a flu vaccine for an STD.
Brett. When you went to school, you were required to get vaccines for easily transmitted things that could cause an public health epidemic, like Measles, Mumps, or Rubella. You can get those just be being in the same room as other students who are infected. That’s quite different than something you can only get from having sex. The shcools have no business doing anything other than mandating for easily communicable illnesses that are airborn. last I checked, they don’t have orgies in class in school. That’s the only way students could get infected in the classroom environment. Schools have no business mandating things beyond that.
This is just the liberal agenda, many older women with HPV themselves not wanting Madison to get HPV either, when it’s not the business of schools do be deciding that. Parents decide that, not the schools.
@ Brett
Did you read the article about HPV Steve posted? It says that the Vatican said there was nothing wrong with receiving that vaccine so there is no going simply with their religious beliefs on this.
@ Jennifer
Nobody knows the long term consequences of it,and nobody knows the effectivity of it given how many HPV strains. And men get HPV too, so why not immunize all students rather than just females? What’s the reasoning behind this? And why in school? Why not for the parents to decide this?
Should schools also vaccinate against other things that cannot be transmitted? Perhaps if there were a vaccine to prevent people from wanting nicotine, should we vaccinate kids with that too?
This is a poiltical agenda being played out on kids. Can’t sink any lower than that.
The point is that liberals want to force this vaccine, which only enables promiscuity, which provides a false sense of security given there are hundreds of strains of HPV, and this doesn’t protect against all of them, let alone all of the cancer causing strains. It’s like a flu vaccine for an STD.
Thanks for clearing that up, I guess I just missed the part where they said “We are liberals and we want to force vaccines on these children to further our agenda and take over the world”
P.S.
Noone is saying the parents shouldn’t be responsible for their children, but where else can you find a large number of the target population to receive the vaccine? Schools! 😀
At the risk of sounding like somebody else, I fear that in the vast majority of cases ADHD is a convenient label for a child whose parents lack the necessary skills and don’t have enough discipline (or, indeed, love).
Better parents, not Ritalin.
@ Jennifer:
Did you read the article about HPV Steve posted? It says that the Vatican said there was nothing wrong with receiving that vaccine so there is no going simply with their religious beliefs on this.
I sure did, and the comment was on purity before marriage, not the religious ethics behind the vaccine. If these religious cats both saved themselves for marriage, there would be no issue to protect against HPV.
@ Bob
Were you around yesterday? The problem with society and the future is lal pretty much due to bad parenting, yet I got attacked for suggesting that the shooting rampages are due to parenting?
Parents now are the I WANT THIS AND I WANT IT RIGHT NOW, generation. So if something can be “fixed” with a pill rather than effort, they will take the pill route. So all the Connors and Madisons are getting drugged up rather than parents parenting. You can’t pick out granite countertops if connor is seeing a shrink for psychotherapy, but you can if Connor is being drugged with Ritalin.
@ Jennifer
“but where else can you find a large number of the target population to receive the vaccine? Schools! ”
It’s not for the schools to decide this. That’s for the parents.
Why don’t we test all sorts of drugs on students in schools given they are such a target population?
Let’s get rid of lab animals and use students intead.
@ Brett
““We are liberals and we want to force vaccines on these children to further our agenda and take over the world”
Way to enable bad behavior that leads to STDs. When these kids till wind up getting cancer AND more STDs due to a false sense of security, you’ll have yourself to thank for that by enabling bad behavior.
No, no, and a thousand times no. Kids today just need a swift kick in the butt. You start telling kids that there is a cure in pills, then they’ll be quick to take them as an answer well into their adult lives. That “quick fix” is never the best option, but that’s what America is about these days, we want things fixed about ourselves without wanting to do any work. It’s sad.
I used to have “A.D.D.”, and I’m glad my mom never gave me pills, because my “A.D.D.” made me a much more intelligent, interesting, and creative person.
-Anthony, LA, CA
@ Steve:
I’m with you on this one, just not in your mission to stomp out and blame or link all problems on earth to liberalism.
@ Brett
Please, you know that the people behind mandating the HPV vaccine are liberals.
@ Steve
Re-read the article. It does target HPV but also 70% of cervical cancers. It is fairly new and I am sure if studies show that it would be effective for boys and men they will make it available in time. However, in the meantime, isn’t it better to prevent what is possible as opposed to saying well, we can’t give it to boys and men too so we don’t bother right now. That doesn’t make much sense.
If there was a vaccination for nicotine, I’d get it for my kids. However, I think you are missing the point with the target age for receiving the vaccination. That is why they wanted to get the school involved-they don’t want the school to take over the parenting role. There is no political agenda.
Steve:
Biology enabled them to have sex, Steve. I have yet to see anyone claim “you have an HPV vaccine, enjoy unprotected sex now!” It’s a “just in case” vaccine. And with HPV being easily transfered, condoms or not, if the kids are going to engage in sex, is it best not to protect them best as possible and arm them with everything they need?
Or do we take the “Palin approach”? 😉
@ Jennifer
The vaccine deals with a virus. Virii mutate. The drug will not be effective for any substantial period, but those given the vaccine will hav ea false sense of security, and will likely take more risky behaviors due to the false sense of escurity, only making hte problem worse. If a virus couldn’t mutate, then this would be a good idea. The reality is that they do mutate and thhis vaccine won’t be effective. Given there are so many strains of HPV is some basic proof of this fact. And then if we do this, perhaps a more virulent strain of HPV will come about? That’s what happens when people do things like this.
@Bob
Better parents, not Ritalin.
I have lost all my faith… 😉
Please, you know that the people behind mandating the HPV vaccine are liberals.
You love posting links to back up your bashings, Steve. Please post one to support this claim as well, lets not get too slack 😉
@ Brett
a false sense of security is worse than the status quo. So if kids figure “now I’m protected from HPV and since condoms don’t protect from HPV, TEE HEE, LET’S NOT USE CONDOMS!” so then other diseases will be more easily spread too.
This is just going to enable more STDs to be spread due to the false sense of security it will provide. Look for the infection rates to go way up in the future.
@ Brett
There is no hidden agenda. The vaccine is needed. Schools are where you can find a large number of the target population to receive the vaccine.
@ Brett
Okay, let’s spell this out. The left are in favor of HPV vaccines, the right (religious) people are against it. So. hmm.. who could be behind the HPV vaccine movement? I’VE GOT IT! RIGHT WING CONSERVATIVES!
a false sense of security is worse than the status quo. So if kids figure “now I’m protected from HPV and since condoms don’t protect from HPV, TEE HEE, LET’S NOT USE CONDOMS!”
If HPV were the only concern and HPV was the only risk taught in sexual education, you may have a point. Something tells me this is far from the case.
HPV in fact is probably one of the least concerning diseases amongst sexually active kids… Theres far bigger ones out there to protect yourself against.
Steve:
The left are in favor of HPV vaccines, the right (religious) people are against it.
Jennifer:
It says that the Vatican said there was nothing wrong with receiving that vaccine
?
@ Jennifer:
There is no hidden agenda. The vaccine is needed. Schools are where you can find a large number of the target population to receive the vaccine.
Exactly. Why isn’t equal attention being applied to PHCP’s or family doctors?
@Brett
?
You have to spell it out. LOL
@ Brett
Q. Where else are you going to have access to a large number of the target population? Young girls that are able to receive the vaccination?
A. Schools! 😉
@ Selena:
Ah yes, lol. For anyone who didn’t get that contradiction, read it over again 😉
@ Steve
You are kidding me, right? A vaccine being a license to have sex? Man, I missed out on that I guess! That is very untrue. Of course new strains crop up however, that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t protect against the here and now. Advances are advances.
@ Brett
You should go and check into HPV. It is more common than you might think and it’s also passed on by many who don’t even know they have it.
@ Brett
I have a question for you regarding the catch 22 of the hidden agenda of the Vatican allowing the HPV vaccine. I am curious as to why that is so important when it should be the fact that we have made an advance that will help us be more healthy? Shouldn’t that be more important?
@Brett
RE ?
You win the prize for trying to combat ignorance.
The CDC recommends the HPV vaccine for (first) 11 and 12 year-old girls and (second) for 13 through 26 years of age who have not yet been vaccinated or completed the vaccine series. Based on ignorant comments posted above, the CDC must be full of liberal doctors. Some people’s biased and prejudice is so deep that ignorance is normal.
In the U.S. 12,000 women that are diagnosed with cervical cancer a year and the nearly 4,000 women that die from this disease must also all be liberal based on comments above.
@ Jennifer
What are all the madisons going to be told that the vaccine is for? They will believe they are safe, so when they are old enough to start having sex (13 these days) they will go around remembering that “mommy told madison that madison is now safe” and they will think they are safe and engage in irresponsible behavior. It’s called “enabling poor behavior”. If you don’t believe me, just watch the infection rates of all STDs start increasing.
@ Jennifer:
Exactly lol. Equal attention still should be paid to PCHPs though.
I have a question for you regarding the catch 22 of the hidden agenda of the Vatican allowing the HPV vaccine. I am curious as to why that is so important when it should be the fact that we have made an advance that will help us be more healthy? Shouldn’t that be more important?
Jennifer,
Are you thinking I’m against the vaccine? Im not, if I mentioned a hidden agenda it was out of sarcasm….
@Brett
Your sarcasm is too subtle by far… 😉
To get back on topic, since it was hijacked again, by Steve.
ADHD is not a drug I think I would like my kids to take, if they get out of hand lock ’em in a closet. LOL I’m just kidding close those mouths. Drugs in general should not easily be prescribed to children. I am not sure in which conditions parents choose to use it or how doctors prescribe it. There definably seem to be inconstancies.
@ Jessica
Your own stats are proof of the bias and agenda:
“In the U.S. 12,000 women that are diagnosed with cervical cancer a year and the nearly 4,000 women that die from this disease must also all be liberal based on comments above.”
Did you know that over 450,000 Americans die from heart attacks each year? We have an obesity epidemic, there are obese kids these days. I see them all the time. What do you think is a more serious public health threat, a few thousand cases of cervical caner and the hundreds of thousands of heart attacks and fatalities. Especially given how easily we could reduce this, by enoucouraging exercise, better diets, yet we are treating the HPV vaccine like it’s a public health crisis when it pales compared to obesity and the consequences. There HAS to be an agenda behind that. It’s the liberal, thinking promiscuity is empowerment basketcases that want their kids to be as messed up as they are.
@ Selena:
Lol, and here I am wondering if similar thoughts are being re-affirmed or what 😉
I need to be more bold in the sarcasm perhaps? 😉 lol
@Brett
I love it the way it is… but you know me! 🙂
@ Jessica
I’m tired of you accusing me of hijacking threads. This topic is about drugging students and I was talking about drugging students with a vaccine. Sorry if it offends you that you don’t like my views. Stop accusing me of hijacking topics.
@ Jennifer
Excellent points! By the way, Bret was being sarcastic in pointing out that the Vatican is supportive of having the HPV vaccine, since Steve made outlandish comments that is unnecessary and that only liberals are pushing for this vaccine.
@ Jessica
There is also a hidden agenda behind Ritalin. It’s so the drug makers can make money by creating a “disease” out of thin air by adding it to the DSM IV so they can then create a drug to treat it. Are you going ot accuse me of hijacking the topic again? Or maybe you agree with me on this, so it doesn’t count as hijacking?
What do you think is a more serious public health threat, a few thousand cases of cervical caner and the hundreds of thousands of heart attacks and fatalities.
So we ignore the smaller health threats entirely…. Good plan.
I have yet to see heart disease and obesity pushed to the back of the table of public health concerns.
It’s the liberal, thinking promiscuity is empowerment basketcases that want their kids to be as messed up as they are.
…. LOL
@ Steve
Cervical cancer? It doesn’t sound too stdish to me. It’s certainly not giving young girls a license to have sex. What about the 13 year old girls who don’t have the shot but have sex? They just won’t be protected because we don’t want to “enable poor behavior”? I would think the opposite would be true-teaching your daughter to take care of herself in all aspects.
@ Jennifer
That’s my point, they aren’t protected, yet you think they are. Even with the vaccine, it’s not going to stop HPV or cervical cancer (just might reduce some of the instances) of it, presuming the virus doesn’t further mutate, meanwhile providing a false sense of security.
Given how promiscuity is so common already, don’t you think it would make sense for it to only get worse given a false sense of security from a vaccine?
steve,
regarding the vaccine. think about it that way, it only takes one time intercourse with an infected male, who may have had only oce had intercourse previously and you are infected for a liftime and have a significantly elevated risk of HPV.
please try to be a little bit more open minded regarding bad chices and all. just think about it that a completely monogameouse woman can actually catch the virus……
@ Brett
So why is there 100x more attention and effort being put forward to vaccinate against HPV than there is to deal with obesity and the health consequences of it?
If they can mandate that kids get HPV vaccinations, they can mandate that kids have to run a mile a day. But they don’t, yet they mandate HPV vaccinations for the far smaller risk to their health. Why? Care to answer?
@ steve
You’re funny sometimes. So with your logic, since you can still die in a car crash even while wearing a seatbelt, well then we might as well just not wear one at all, right 🙂 The seat belt is just a false sense of security, lol!!!
-Anthony, LA, CA
steve,
i think people are still a wee bit more concerned about pregnacy.
what is wrong about being protected against some disease. hell in this case we should just stop vaccinating, because it is your fault if somebody sneezes in your face, or you eat something bad. stop treating people, i mean a broken leg, you idiot fell down on your own accord……..
@ Jens
“please try to be a little bit more open minded regarding bad chices and all. just think about it that a completely monogameouse woman can actually catch the virus……”
No, I am not going to be open minded to people’s poor decision making abilities. That only enables them to make further stupid choices.
Yes, a monogamous person can catch if it they choose to have sex with someone who isn’t monogamous.
Way to enable bad behavior people. Perhaps one day, when we all have HPV we can all have a victim, boo hoo my choices aren’t my responsibility, pity party where none of us are held accountable for our choices. How empowering!
@Jens
Steve
please try to be a little bit more open minded regarding bad chices and all
To dream the impossible dream… 😉
steve,
i doubt it is 100X. it only pops up when you see a news item related to it. obesity is much more in the limelight and rightly so.
@ Steve:
So why is there 100x more attention and effort being put forward to vaccinate against HPV than there is to deal with obesity and the health consequences of it?
Links? Facts?
Something tells me the public health campaigns, awareness and expenditures for HPV pale in comparison to those for obesity and heart disease…. I could be mistaken…..
It’s in the spotlight right now, fear not, attention will shift again soon.
@ All, I think several bloggers probably did not read the blog post before posting in this thread, it says ” Should we drug our children?” Reading some of the posts I wonder if I am in the wrong thread or if bloggers are posting in the wrong thread. Let’s try to keep our posts relevant to the topic in question. Thanks.
@ Brett
OMG, please don’t make me laugh. You’re suggesting that the awareness of HPV pales compared to obesity, yet we have a mandatory vaccine, sex education, yet we have 30% of the population obese and doing nothing about it? RIGHT.. okay.that’s good Brett. If they spent remotely the amount of attention on obesity as theyd did on HPV, we wouldn’t have so many obese people. You think that might be true, right?
Again, which has the greater risk and thus should have more attention to it? A disease the kills hundreds of thousands or a disease the kills 4 thousand?
@ Nelson
Gardisil is a drug given to kids in the school environment.
@ Steve,
“Stop accusing me of hijacking topics.”
-Stop doing it and I’ll stop calling you on it.
“Your own stats are proof of the bias and agenda”
-Not mine, THE CDC’s stats of ALL AMERICANS, not just the ones you dislike.
“This topic is about drugging students and I was talking about drugging students with a vaccine.”
Vaccines necessary to prevent cancer are not the same as ADHD (unnecessary) drugs to keep your child sitting still.
“Sorry if it offends you that you don’t like my views.”
Steve, you don’t offend me. I find you very entertaining and enjoy many good laughs from your post.
@ Steve
Of course this vaccination is not 100% effective. Do you know of one that is? Isn’t x amount of being protected better than no protection at all? There is no false sense of security. I don’t think that promiscuity would be worse if a girl had the vaccination. Honestly, it’s just common sense that if there is something available to at least help in preventing something why not do it? This comes from someone who usually has a fit about taking Tylenol for a headache.
@ Jennifer
A 13 year old girl given a vaccine and beingi told in the language they speak to 8 year olds, she’s going to think she’s safe. Sorry, but that’s just reality. You’re thinking from the perspective of an adult, not a 8 year old or a 13 year old. They will think they are safe.
steve,
you come accross holier than the frigging pope.
peopel are going to have sex, that is what we are programmed to do. if not we as a species are dead.
this vaccine does not enable bad choices. it protects people against a potentially leathal threat. nobody walks around with HVP tatooed on their forehead. are you sure you are not a carrier?????
do you think everyboddy tells everyone in detail whom they slept with, how often and with/without protection.
in this case the women who catches the disease is a victim of men not being aware of the disease. i am absolutly certain that the vast majority of men are not aware that they are carriers. this means even in a stable relationship for years they can infect a women, and obviously the other way round happens as well. only women are probably more aware of it especially after pap tests and potentially altered cell morphology.
pleas try steve, it does not hurt to be a little open minded.
@ Steve
You said-“Yes, a monogamous person can catch if it they choose to have sex with someone who isn’t monogamous.”
What about those who have a significant other who cheats without their knowledge? It isn’t fair that they be held accountable as they were not the one cheating.
It’s funny that you mention people have to take personal responsibility. They should. They have the responsibility to receive the HPV vaccination not just to protect themselves but anyone they may have sex with at a later time. 🙂
@ Jessica:
“Vaccines necessary to prevent cancer are not the same as ADHD (unnecessary) drugs to keep your child sitting still. ”
They are necessary to prevent cancer? Really? I’d think that not having sex would do a better job of that.
Also last I checked, Gardisil was a drug, and this is in the school environment, so it’s completely on topic. Had it been something done in doctor’s offices and only with parental persmission, you’d have a point.
This is an issue of schools forcing their views on particular drugs on students. Gardisil or ADHD drugs, it’s still about shcools and drugs.
OMG, please don’t make me laugh. You’re suggesting that the awareness of HPV pales compared to obesity, yet we have a mandatory vaccine, sex education,
This extends far beyond awareness and effort spent on combatting HPV…. To boil it down associating sex ed solely with HPV is a bold mistake.
And yes, I am suggesting that effort spent on HPV awareness pales in comparison to heart disease, obesity, especially HIV…. You brought it up, you have the burden of proof legal-eagle… Prove me wrong.
yet we have 30% of the population obese and doing nothing about it?
Your big on enabling… are we not enabling them by allowing McDonalds’ and Starbucks to be posted at every corner? 😉
If they spent remotely the amount of attention on obesity as theyd did on HPV, we wouldn’t have so many obese people.
Wrong! People know what makes them fat, they chose not to follow proper diet and exercise habits. Make a vaccine for obesity and we can have a discussion with these two topics on a proper parallel.
@Jennifer
“It’s funny that you mention people have to take personal responsibility. They should. They have the responsibility to receive the HPV vaccination not just to protect themselves but anyone they may have sex with at a later time. ”
Yeah, and given the untested nature of it and the potential health risks, is it really “responsible” to do that?
nobody knows the long term consequences of it, and drugs have long term consequences whether you choose to deny this or not.
@ Brett
“If they spent remotely the amount of attention on obesity as theyd did on HPV, we wouldn’t have so many obese people.
Wrong! People know what makes them fat, they chose not to follow proper diet and exercise habits. Make a vaccine for obesity and we can have a discussion with these two topics on a proper parallel.”
And kids could choose to not have sex and not expose themselves to STDs.. Be careful of the arguments you make especially when they prove my point. Way to enable bad behavior.
@ Jens
Look at carolyn Hax in the Washington Post today and yesterday, and look at the stories of horrific behavior, and ask, do you think given a license to have sex is going to help things out? You need to understand the horrific behavior people are engaging in these day. Gardisil = license to have sex because “you are safe now”.. Things are only going to get worse.. It’s funny how clueless so many people are!
@ Steve
Maybe you would like to speak with my mom. She works at a health department that provides that vaccine. I assure you they do not speak to 13 year old girls like 8 year olds, poke them in the arm, then tell them to go have sex with anyone they choose. That’s just not true! Most of the time they focus on the benefits as they relate to cervical cancer and also do say that it does NOT protect against all strains of HPV.
steve,
it is a vaccine, what do you think is the long term risk. it recoginzeds the epitop of a protein on the virus……..do you know of any long term risks of other vaccines?
Be careful of the arguments you make especially when they prove my point.
The incorrect point about more attention, spending, etc being paid to HPV than obesity, heart disease, or HIV?
To believe that you are enabling bad behavior by administering a vaccine which protects against some types of HPV to people who will undoubtedly engage in sexual activity regardless of the vaccine is so far fetched its amazing.
But yes, we can take the position of your coveted ‘right’ and go without protecting against preventable (some strains) diseases as much as possible…
Hell birth control and condoms enable bad behavior too!!! Lets do away with those!
@ Jennifer
This is what they do they give the shot to 8 year old Madison, and say “now little Madison is protected” and then madison remembers she has had a shot for HPV, she was told she’s protected (do you think they’re going to tell madison that , “well, this protects against some of the cancer causing strains, your chances of hetting HPV and thus cervical cancer are reduced by 70%”. please Jennifer. They talk to them like little kids and give them lollypops). Madison remembers this at age 13, thinks she’s safe, and then has sex and gets HPV or herpes.
I don’t buy into this whole “rise of ADHD kids”. Where were these kids 50 or 60 years ago, after WW2? I can tell you: they ran around outside and climbed on trees or between the ruins, and when they hurt themselves they got a whack on their heads to “pay better attention”. When I went to school (20-30 years ago), I still had 4 hours of gym every week, and school was only in the mornings anyway. Now my son started school – full day, and he has exactly 1 (one) hour of gym per week. Every child is different, and some have more energy than others, but the more energetic kids get no outlet anymore today to work their energy off. Instead they have to learn all they and when they come home they are parked in front of the TV because the parents are too busy and tired themselves from work. As a parent, when you notice that your child has too much energy, you make him do sports, not make him swallow some pills that make the energy go away.
@ Jens
Have you been watching the News? Drug makers are being sued left and right by people balming their children’s autism on vaccines.
http://www.injuryboard.com/national-news/fda-adverse-reports-on-gardasil-made-public.aspx?googleid=243428
More risks from Gardisil. Some people have died after being given the injection, lots of adverse reactions..
@ Steve, read the blog post again.
steve,
these are by your own words “stories”. the vast majority does not. doe innocent people have to suffer because the world is also inhabited by idiots?
as jennifer said what about men or for that matter women cheating and the partner falls ill as a consequence. do you seriously believe that person who is affected has made a bad choice, espically let’s say after 20 plus years of marriage?????
you always go to extrems and that is maybe part of your profession. i tend to stick to the side of reasonability and probability, which might be part of my profession.
This is what they do they give the shot to 8 year old Madison, and say “now little Madison is protected” and then madison remembers she has had a shot for HPV, she was told she’s protected (do you think they’re going to tell madison that , “well, this protects against some of the cancer causing strains, your chances of hetting HPV and thus cervical cancer are reduced by 70%”. please Jennifer. They talk to them like little kids and give them lollypops). Madison remembers this at age 13, thinks she’s safe, and then has sex and gets HPV or herpes.
WOW! What a story!
I could see this as plausible…. If the child receives no form of sexual education whatsoever, except that she is protected from HPV and that there are no other risks out there.
@ Katharina
It’s a scam. The drug companies want money so they create a new mental illness so they can treat it. They have rules where drugs can only be marketed for on lable uses, so they had to create a new condition so that the drug could be marketed and sold.
@ Steve,
I can’t help you if you refuse to see the connection between the scientific research that shows this vaccine could PREVENT one form of CANCER. The cost of vaccinating a person is much lower than paying for the medical cost for that woman’s cancer. We have access to the same data. Since, the 4,000 deaths of women are not that valuable to you what if it were 4,000 deaths of men using vigra?
Yes, we have a problem with heart attacks, money from HPV is not being taken from heart prevention programs. I don’t see you attacking corporate America for putting snapple and other crappy vending machines in schools or the FDA for not having stronger nutrition regulations for food. Where fast-food chains are allowed to sell something called chicken, but actually contains less than 10% meat. In NYS (or at least in NYC) fast food restaurants are not allowed to use certain trans fats. Harp on about this… oh wait, there is no “liberal” in the White House and in Bush’s Admin, so I’ll wait for when Obama is President for you to complain about these problems.
PS- Schools have something called heath class and gym to help combat things like heart attacks due to unhealthy weights. Maybe they weren’t offered at you school…
steve,
i know a lot about that topic. these claims are bogus beyond belife . it all started with one doctor from a gastroenterology department in london, claiming that this is the case. i have read his studies and without expetions all the statistics employed are wrong, there are not adequate control groups employed etc. there have been thousands of proper double blind studies that have show that this is not the case. but then it’s easy to start a rumor on false evidence, since people want to have an explantion for a problem.
Free Sarah Palin – she will sort this one out!
@ Jessica:
PS- Schools have something called heath class and gym to help combat things like heart attacks due to unhealthy weights. Maybe they weren’t offered at you school…
*GASP!* Come to think of it, I recall even being taught about this triangle thing in school where the food was inside…. Though I can’t quite place a name on it…. 😉
Oh and Physical Fitness Testing… UGH! I remember that lol
On a roll, Brett – too funny, man! HAHAHA!!
@ Jessica
To combat obesity would basically be free if we mandated that kids exercise, yet we don’t even do that, yet we mandate a vaccine that might prevent a disease that kills far, far far less people? Why?
I assure you, the health costs due to obesity will far, far far outweight any of the cancer costs of cervical cancer, and the problem is going to get worse and worse as more and more people get obese, while focus is on cervical cancer more than a dieases that will affect many millions of people, whereas cervical cancer involves 12,000 a year, and not all of them got it from HPV. Again, where should the priorities be? And how can you say ther eis no agenda behind these priorities?
What does the President have to do with the state law in NY? I don’t understand what you’re getting at.
@ Steve
I really feel like I am talking to a brick wall here. They are not telling Madison that she is protected. The shot is for HPV/Cervical Cancer. Have you seen ads for the vaccine? They focus on the cervical cancer aspect which is not giving anyone a license to engage in sex.
My mom is a nurse. I assure you she and her co-workers to not encourage any young people to go out and engage in sexual activity. What is the odds that a teenager will engage in sex on their own, without any persuasion? Isn’t it better to prevent what you can as opposed to not protecting any at all?
I am outraged because I didn’t get a lollypop! haha Seriously, please look at the other side of this. Would you want your daughter out on the loose without every possible protection?
@ jennifer
I never said that they are told to go out and have sex. But they are told they are safe. You don’t really think that the medical practitioner who gives them the gardisil reads the technical side affects list to an 8 year old kid? Do you really think a kid would understand 1/10th of what it means? They just say “Here Madison, we’re giving you this shot so you’ll be safe, here’s a lollypop” then Madison later as she’s older realizes what the shot was for and thinks she’s safe. 13 year olds think this way. After I got a tetanus booster, I thought I was immune to just about everything as a kid, and I became fearless and often got injured because I thought I as “safe”.. That’s how kids think. Stop thinking from the perspective of an adult, and think about what a 13 year old thinks. They think it’s safe, so they go out and do it.
@ Steve,
“This is an issue of schools forcing their views on particular drugs on students. Gardisil or ADHD drugs, it’s still about shcools and drugs.”
Sorry, wrong again. You might be interested in reading information in National Network for Immunization Information http://www.immunizationinfo.org/
When I was in school, I did not get vacines in school, but in doctor’s offices. Plus antyhing the school administed had to have a parent’s permission slip acknowledging their consent. Once there was a “mandatory” TB test conducted at my school, because two students were diagnosed with it. I had to have permission to take it, if permission had not been given then parents had two options: 1) take their kids to their own doctor and bring a slip showing the test had been give and the student was cleared to be around other kids or 2) not bring the child to school.
steve,
i give you the argument about health risks and costs associated with obesity.
i give you very simple solutions to this problem. one is excersice as you stated, the other is stop supporting corn farmers, because only due to the substedice they get it is possible to produce all theinsane products full of high fructose syrup. stop vendin machines in schools and regulate fast food restaurants. yes it is an issue of making bad descisions, BUT we need to educate people about them and make shure that they are finacially welkl enough off to afford better choices. we humans maximaize calories per effort, we always have. we judge likelyhood of killin mammoth and amount of calories from picking berries….
@ Jessica
That’s because the US doesn’t have socialized healthcare like the UK does. That’s why students get shots in schools in the UK. When I was a kid, I had to get my shots from my pediatrician. I’m sure the poor kids got them free from their clinic. Even to go to university, I had to provide proof that I had been vaccinated. The reason why schools had those mandatory shots wre because the diseases they prevented were readily transmissible and posed a very serious health risk to kids at those very ages. HPV is not a serious health risk to kids, only a risk as they become sexually active and years later. Measles Mumps and rubella can kill kids at school age, HPV can’t. This is why they mandated those other vaccinations, but not the HPV is more of an “empowerment” thing otherwise they would do this for just about everything else out there as well.
But they are told they are safe
AGAINST HPV! (and only some strains at that)
Please stop ignoring the fact that they may very well be told there are other concerns and risks out there aside from HPV which they were vaccinated against.
Can anyone on this blog confirm that theres other STDs talked about at home, in school, on TV, etc than HPV? Maybe I get different channels, went to a different school, and grew up in an odd family….?
plus,
obesity already costs more than smoking related issues. now go and combine fat people smoking and we are heading for a health meltdown in the order of wall street.
come to think it is mainly the lower income/poorly educated classes that smoke AND are obese. does that tell me something……?
@ Brett
Do you honestly think an 8 year old kid is going to understand risks and benefits of a vaccination while they are holding a barbie doll? Please.. It’s a kid. They just say “this will make you safe”. I don’t recall ever before getting a vaccination them ever telling me any health risks involved. They just gave me the vaccine, said this “this will protect you and make you safe” and gave me a lollipop. I’ve seen gets get vaccinated very recently, and they still do the same thing.
Even as an adult, getting the flu shot, they don’t tell it to you. They make you sign a waiver, and have it written down, the risks. Do you think kids would read the consent and waiver form? If you do, I have a bridge in brooklyn to sell you.
Brett,
pretty much name it and it is mentioned, viral and bacterial….that’s why it is called health education 😉
STOP! We all need to take a step back and think….. WWLDD
steve,
just minutes ago you were arguing that it was a 13 year old being treated like a 8 year old….or am i getting it wrong
will,
no let unreasonability RULE……..
I have to agreed with Will Rhodes comments at 5.42pm….
Because i was drug with heavy duty medications, when i was younger….
Dennis
LOL @ Will!!!
Steve:
They just gave me the vaccine, said this “this will protect you and make you safe” and gave me a lollipop
I must have gone to different doctor then. I knew even at a young age what each shot I was getting did. Now I may not of understood the disease, the risks, etc. But I was never poked in the arm and given a blanket statement that “now your safe”…
Are we to understand then that its not possible to vaccinate a child and make them aware of the risks, what the vaccine did, then properly speak to them about sex? Are we really that deficient?
@Nelson
In my view the conversation is bang on topic.
The conversation is flushing out the reasons why we should or should not vaccinate children. It is also revealing what is behind the various opinions on the subject.
@ Steve
“To combat obesity would basically be free if we mandated that kids exercise, yet we don’t even do that, yet we mandate a vaccine that might prevent a disease that kills far, far far less people? Why?”
We do we have PE (physical education for people outside the US). I remember, having competing for a president’s award (paper stamped by the current President seal) for students who could run a mile, do push ups, and sit ups under a certain amount of time.
@ To my lefties,
IN PE, as a competitive child I remember fighting for a top spot in the fitness challenge. I was motivated when I thought I’d get a certificate or trophy, but right as I was about to finish the coach said “President Bush (sr.) Award” I stopped and crossed my hands. A coach had to push me past the finish line. I think my parents might have supported I be place on ADHD drugs, if they had been available.
@ Brett
Right.. I’m sure you knew what Measels Mumps and Rubella was. I’m sure you knew what Polio was, I’m sur eyou knew what any of the things they were vaccinating you for were. If anyting, if you wree told anything about Polio, you were told about FDR. Please… Don’t tell me they tell you what the shots are for other than name only, and don’t you dare tell me they tell a child the risks of vaccinations. Please, I don’t need to laugh this hard.
@ Steve
This vaccination is not just for HPV; it’s also for cervical cancer. Is cervical cancer a STD? How is that giving a young girl the green light to have sex? Because she has a vaccination that will help prevent some types of cancer? That doesn’t even sound remotely close to anything having to do with sex. Are parents going to want to admit that their daughter as young as 9 may have sex? No, but they will be interested in a vaccine that will prevent her from getting cancer. That is what they will discuss with her and it IS what nurses discuss when they administer the shot.
You didn’t answer my question-would you want your daughter to have every protection available?
@ Jessica:
I remember fighting for a top spot in the fitness challenge. I was motivated when I thought I’d get a certificate or trophy, but right as I was about to finish the coach said “President Bush (sr.) Award”
I never got Bush’s Award 😦 I was always bummed out… The V-Sit Reach was the deal breaker for me 😦 A runner with no flexibility…..
@ Jessica
Many schools got rid of PE and sports due to budgetary constraints. When I was in high school, PE was only mandatory during freshman year, and this was when there was much fewer obese people.
Did you see the link I posted in another thread about the mother who bought her high school age son a gun and gunpowder? He was obese, so was his mom, he was teased for his weight, and he planned on killing his former classmates… Had the mother and perhaps the schools encouraged exercise, that entire situation would have been avoided. But schools do not emphasize sports now, and also risk of lawsuits, etc discourages any physical activity, thus worsening the obseity problem that is already vast, vastly more serious in nature than HPV. Yet we choose to do nothing about obesity, and act like HPV is the most important issue when it pales in comparison to obesity.
@ Steve:
Right.. I’m sure you knew what Measels Mumps and Rubella was. I’m sure you knew what Polio was, I’m sur eyou knew what any of the things they were vaccinating you for were. If anyting, if you wree told anything about Polio, you were told about FDR. Please… Don’t tell me they tell you what the shots are for other than name only, and don’t you dare tell me they tell a child the risks of vaccinations. Please, I don’t need to laugh this hard.
My father is a doctor, so….. yep, I knew and had every subsequent question I had, answered after the shots, including the risks.
Hope you get a good giggle out of the truth 🙂
@ Steve:
Yet we choose to do nothing about obesity
Links? Facts?
@ Jennifer
Out of curiosity, how common is cervical cancer without HPV? IF it’s closely related, then cervical cancer basically is an STD if the virus that causes the cancer was sexually transmitted. There’s no better definition of an STD than that.
That’s like saying HIV/AIDS isn’t a STD because the people wind up dying from something else. Nobody dies from AIDS, they die from other diseases like cancers or pneumonia becuse they have no immune system.
Jessica. Every protection available is not having sex. That’s the ONLY way to make sure you don’t get an STD.
@Brett
I knew even at a young age what each shot I was getting did.
If you don’t know much when you are eight years old, you might assume that others won’t know much.
I was totally responsible for myself at eight years old. I understood the dangers of the chest x-rays I was given, for instance, when someone in the school got TB.
It really depends on the child. But we can’t make a blanket assumption that all children do not understand. Those who don’t understand probably won’t understand much more when they are older.
steve,
it’s lawyers that enable these insane lawsuits, that prevent schools from offereing PE……….”my little rick bumped his preciouse fat little head, i want a million for the traumatic experiance, so that ricky and i can go do MacDonalds and comfort eat, because of this big bad world”.
my solution reeducate 805 of the lawyers and make them get a proper job, instead of leeching of society and making bogus claims.
that was 80% of lawyers
@ Brett
“@ Steve:
Yet we choose to do nothing about obesity
Links? Facts?”
Why do you fight everything I say? Do I need to provide a link to prove the sky is blue?
We have HPV vaccines in school, yet we have 30% obesity rate, yet no mandatory exercise programs, PE has virtually been elminated from schools. To mee, and a reasonable person it seems they are focusing more on HPV than the more serious threat posed by obesity. Do you need me to provide proof that there is an obesity epidemic and it is beginning in childhood? Are you in denial brett?
There is an huge upsurge of diabetes in kids these days. Kids are getting heart disease earlier and earlier, but please continue to fight everything I say. Help enable the problem by denying there is one.
steve,
actually they die because of AIDS, they do not die because of HIV. HIV only facilitates AIDS……and death.
just a wee hint
@ selena
” I understood the dangers of the chest x-rays I was given, for instance, when someone in the school got TB.
It really depends on the child. But we can’t make a blanket assumption that all children do not understand. Those who don’t understand probably won’t understand much more when they are older.”
I’m sure you drove yourself to the doctor at 8, since you said you were responsible for yourself then..
I bet even as an adult you don’t understand the risks of xrays, so you surely didn’t at 8. Ever had a CT scan? Just one of those provides a lifetime of Xrays for a normal person. People don’t realize this and are getting radiation related tumors due to CT scans. Even adults don’t knonw much about risk, so an 8 year old surely isn’t going to know it.
@ Steve
All I have to say is oh my.
I am done.
@ Steve:
Why do you fight everything I say? Do I need to provide a link to prove the sky is blue?
No, I was just really hoping to see a link or publication proving that nothing is being done about obesity…
I don’t deny obesity as an epidemic. If you look back through countless topics, you’ll see my stance and yours were actually quite similar (I know, I was surprised too!)
I still see PE classes outside in every school I drive by during school hours… Maybe they didn’t get that memo to do away with PE?
@ Jens
Lawyers, eh?
will,
what else can i say…..
@ Steve,
“..but not the HPV is more of an “empowerment” thing…”
LOL– Oh dear, whatever god you pray to, I guess I do see humanity trying to prevent any form of cancer as an “empowerment” thing”. And definitely a good thing for schools to educate kids on. Thankfully, you won’t have to sign the permission slip to prevent your kids from getting this form of cancer ad adults.
@ Brett
http://newsinfo.iu.edu/tips/page/normal/1836.html
@ Jessica
“Thankfully, parents who wish to prevent their kids from getting this form of cancer ad adults, don’t have to sign the permission slip.”
That’s really funny Jessica. Given the #1 cause of death in men and women is heart disease, and given that 30% of Americans are obese, your odds of dying from obesity is much higher than d ying from cervical cancer, yet we don’t do anything to fight obesity. I would rather my parents want to prevent someting far mor elikely to kill me then something not remotely as likely to kill me.
But I know… Obesity is a “disease” so it’s nobody’s fault, we can all be victims! hurray!
steve,
nobody disputes the obesity epedemic…..
I’m sure you drove yourself to the doctor at 8, since you said you were responsible for yourself then..
Well actually Steve, if you are interested in hearing the facts instead of ass/u/me (ing)
there were no roads, no cars and no doctors where I lived. An X-Ray boat came to the wharf in my community and I went on Board and got an x-ray. I knew what the boat was there for and I went. No one even told me to go. I also asked a lot of questions at the time because i prefer to ask questions than ass/u/me.
As for understanding the risks today, my medical training has given me some idea. But we never fully understand, of course, unless our name is Steve.
@ Jens
What is more serious? HPV or obesity? And if HPV is not as serious to the overrall general health, why do we mandate HPV vaccines, but not exercise and diet fo rthe far more serious health risk??
@ Steve:
http://newsinfo.iu.edu/tips/page/normal/1836.html
“As part of Kolbe’s research, he works with the nation’s 120,000 schools to find ways to improve student and school employee health.”
That article is about the calling for improvement in health education in schools… Not one stating nothing is being done.
Im in complete agreement that the health education in public schools is lacking and needs to be improved… That doesn’t mean that nothing is being done, or that HPV education outweighs current health education on the agenda in public schooling….
well expect all the obese people who claim it is genetics. i have several of those in my family.
i guess their genes are telling them that 8 doughnuts for breakfast is a health start to the day and that two bottles of red wine are good for them, since it contains tanins, and that pints of mashed potatoes are a health dose of fiber…….and that the batter of their deep fried crap contains essential oils………BUT heck i am drinking diet sodas…..
@ Selena
So why do even medical practictioners today ingore the risks that CT scans pose? Imagine, a lifetime of Xrays in a few minutes.. I almost had a CT scan until I looked it up and wondered why they never warned me of it, and opted with an MRI instead. I’m sure the dye they inject in you is really healthy too!
steve,
did I not AGREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE with you?????
but should we not try to prevent something if we can?
steve,
not sure a lifetime, but the doses are definatly significantly higher and i mean SIGNIFICANTLY.
doctors should warn you about that issue
@ Brett
I really have to spell it out for you, but you knew what I mean, that not enough is being done, given 30% obesity rate, and is getting worse. The priority should be on obesity, and since it’s only getting worse, obviously not enough is being done, as the article states. Stop nit picking everything I write. You know obesity is a more serious risk to society than HPV, yet so much more is being done for HPV than for obesity. There’s an agenda behind that.
@ Jens
Given obesity affects a lot more people than cervical cancer, and we are basically doing nothing about obesity, and the problem is only getting worse, I think we have more important priorities. 4000 people die from cervical cancer per year. 400,000+ people die from heart disease every year. You do the math and I do pray you don’t need for me to spell it out any clearer.
@Jens
The point is is that doctors do NOT warn you about the radiation from CT scans. If anything, they tell you “this garbage pail is for you to throw up in” from the poison they inject you with. They insisted I eat before it. I’m more curious, had I actually had the CT scan, am I vomiting from the dye or from the extreme radiation exposure they didn’t even mention?
And if they didn’t mention this to an adult, do you thikn they mention risks to kids?
Again, brooklyn bridge if you think they do.
@ Steve
Since you do selective reading or maybe missed one of my post, I have already agreed that heart diseases are important. School already do something about this in TWO classes. Go nag the FDA and the President to do more about regulating corporate America and for selling unhealthy stuff pretending to be food. Your parent’s can choose either or for you, mine will choose both preventions.
The comment I mention earlier about NYS (or NYC) laws, all our fast food restaurants list the calories next to the cost. At Starbucks in NYC you will see how many calories a frap with caramel and whip cream has before you order it.
@ Jessica
Good for NY, but what does that have to do with who the President is?
@ Jessica, the federeal government has nothing to do with the hstate policies in the school systems. It’s the states that are the problem by emphasizing tiny risk problems like HPV over obesity, which affects far, far more people and kills far far more people.
@ Steve:
yet so much more is being done for HPV than for obesity.
That is the statement I have a problem with! A good way to gauge the amount being done is through money spend on awareness, drugs, programs, research, etc.
I have an incredibly hard time believing that obesity is lacking behind HPV in any of these regards. You are unable to provide any evidence of this aside from perception, and that Steve, is why we simply just don’t seem to agree on this. Since you made the statement I was just asking you for facts or to back it up. It seems you are unable to do so. Thats fine, we will just continue to disagree.
We both agree that obesity is a huge problem and one which needs to be dealt with, but both the problems and solutions are different with each and as such will always catch different types attention (especially media).
ADHD and ritalin: the alternatives: homoeopathic and herbal remedies, lifestyle changes, special approaches to education and educational pressures, adapted diets, and certain very effective meditational techniques. There’s no need to put your kids on drugs. It’s just the easy way out, with very bad consequences.
steve,
you are to a certain extend comparing apples with doughnuts.
the risk of cervical cancer can be prevented by a single injection. OK we agree on this. so it is a fairly easy way of preventing something.
obesity is only preventable by a lifetime of commitment to heating healthy. it is only reduced by educating 300 plus million americans. it is only reduce if the goverment and all food producers come to n agrement that stuffing food with empty calories is bad and they do something about it. i am not sure legislation is the right way, BUT i guess at this point of time probaly the only way.
i do agree with you on the numbers etc, there is not doubt obesity is a much much higher health risk to the population per se. BUT please try to understand that one single injection to a problem is easier and therefore feasable than getting an entire nation of the high fructose syrup train…..that is my point of argument, we can prevent something with one shoot, obisty is a much harder problem, and I know that a significant amount of money is flowing into education about food. if it registers in the clog brains is another issue.
steve,
are you now argueing with me about something we agree????????
you remind me of my wife……she can argue with me about the blueness of the sky…….ie i completly agree with her and suppport her, BUT she still argues with me, telling me the diameterically opposed of what i have just said. i think i suggest to her she should become a lawyer, since she is almost as good at it as you are. i am sure with some training she could beat you… 😉
nevertheless i do love her, maybe just because of that
@ Roebert
I agree about medicine being an easy way out. There are other alternatives for children that do have ADHD.
jennifer,
you must mean rope amd duct tape…………. 😉
@ Steve
“There is also a hidden agenda behind Ritalin….Are you going ot accuse me of hijacking the topic again? Or maybe you agree with me on this, so it doesn’t count as hijacking?”
It is irrelevant if I agree or disagree with you. Since Ritalin is directly connected to ADHD as it is the FOCUS of this this topic, then you did not hijack the discussion with this comment. “It advises doctors and parents to avoid the use of Ritalin (Methyphendiate) in all but the most extreme cases and stop its use altogether for those under the age of five.” It was posted as part of the discussion, maybe you missed it?
@ Jens
haha, Yeah! 😉
@ Bret
RE At Steve: Links? Facts?
I second your request that Steve provide links and facts to substantiate his opinions…. Oh wait, opinions don’t need the to have truth substantiate them.
RE: I never got Bush’s Award
Ah, well Bushies are from Texas so maybe that’s why we got presentational treatment? 😦 I’ll email my school and see if they’ll give you mine.
Ah, well Bushies are from Texas so maybe that’s why we got presentational treatment? I’ll email my school and see if they’ll give you mine.
Any way they can get Lil Dubya to sign it too? That’d be the ultimate! I’d be fit as fit can be 🙂
@ Bret
“*GASP!* Come to think of it, I recall even being taught about this triangle thing in school where the food was inside…. Though I can’t quite place a name on it…. 😉 Oh and Physical Fitness Testing… UGH! I remember that lol”
Yeah that triangle food pyramid was thingy was cool, dude. We even got pictures of it to color and puzzles.
jessica,
the problem of the triangle puzzle thingy must have been that it was made out of cookies and artifical colors…..;)
i grew up in switzerland and we did not have any triangles and nonsens like that, BUT we had a public school milk and apple program for breaks. no frigging soda and vending machines and over 4 hours of PE each week, plus one could opt to join the school teams and do an extra 6 hours a week, plus competition.
still you see only very very few fat people in switzerland. i was embaressed to stand in AA check-in line at the airport in zurich. it was like a line of masting cows getting ready to be slaughter. welcome back to FAT-merica.
@ Steve
I know I said I was finished but there is a difference between obesity and HPV. Is obesity contagious? Can someone pass it to someone else without the other person knowing? No. But we do have initiatives for being healthy-look up Healthy families 2010 sometime.
@ Jennifer
Cancer isn’t contageous either, and i thought you said the vaccine was about preventing cancer?
Far more people die from obesity related illness than die from cervical cancer. What is the more serious problem?
Great, incentives for healthy families 2010. Meanwhile more and more people are becoming obese, there’s the fat acceptance movement that treats obesity like it’s a disease, hence nobody is responsible for their choices and nothing can be done, they are victims, and hence we just have to accept this, and pay for it by way of insurance premiums going way up, while it could be so easily avoided if people just stopped being politically correct. I cannot believe people would rather not be offended than be alive. It’s so pathetic.
steve,
yes the fat-acceptance movment is a problem. HOWEVER, i can see the reason why. it’s is much easier to accept it than actually doing something about it. loosing weight ain’t easy, so accepting it and preferentially blaming it on somebody else is much easier….
obese people often have no concept of how many calories they actually consume a day. just writing a food diary will show how much you take in. Just think two beers or glass of wine after work with dinner are already over 300 calories, i coke or sprite is 150 cal etc etc.
look at the portions in restaurants and you get sick. check out the salt content of stuff and you know why people crave more etc etc. look at the food advertisments. i have not seen the broccoli growers of the usa advertise. yeah orange juice growers do but a glass equals 120 cals.
weigth watchers is right; “diets don’t work, including their own!!!!!!”
life long lifestyle changes work, but these are hard
@ Steve
You made the point several times that giving young girls the vaccine would make them feel safe to have sex so you consider it about HPV. I consider the benefits to be about lowering the risk of cancer. Yes, it can be be caused by PERSISTENT HPV infections. However, that is why one needs the shot, right? Think about this: If someone doesn’t know that they have HPV, don’t receive treatment, and end up with cancer. Why not have a vaccination that might help reduce the risk?
As far as obesity goes, I do think that people need to start eating right. They need to accept responsibility for what they put into their mouths and parents need to monitor what their children eat.
How can you compare cancer to obesity?
@Jennifer
People won’t be responsible though, hence why we are requiring girls to get HPV vaccines, and why the obesity epidemic is getting worse. We only get results when we FORCE people to do things. They won’t do it on their own. I cannot imagine how worse the situation will get if we had socialized healthcare, the obesity problem would get much worse because then we’ll have the “oh, the system will pay for all my health problems”
How can I compare cancer to obesity? I dunno, maybe because obesity causes cancer as well as heart disease?
Far more people will die from obesity related disease than will die from cervical cancer. Why can’t you see this?
@ Jennifer:
Don’t bother, he doesn’t get it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_(fruit)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_(fruit)
brett,
i am glad you compare apple and oranges and not aplle and pears, since apple and pears are actually almost identical, when it comes to texture, appearance and composition. yes somebody studied this and published it….
@ Steve
“Many schools got rid of PE and sports due to budgetary constraints. When I was in high school, PE was only mandatory during freshman year, and this was when there was much fewer obese people.”
Steve, schools can’t do everything. Ten (10) years of PE (assuming k-9 in the US were taken once) is more education and time dedicated to it than other subjects get. I took trigonometry, geography, physicists as electives NOT mandatory. As a matter of fact, my counselor tried to talk me out of it, because it would bring my GPA down if I did not get an A, that I should take choir. I definitely think PE should be extended to 12th grade (last year of high school for people outside the US) especially in light of the growing obesity problem. Then again, I think math and science should be mandatory at all levels.
Individuals bear responsibility as adults and so does the FDA. In school situation, it is not reasonable to expect a hungry child not to eat the pizza, chicken fingers and fries that is served in the cafeteria.
i am glad you compare apple and oranges and not aplle and pears, since apple and pears are actually almost identical, when it comes to texture, appearance and composition. yes somebody studied this and published it….
Well maybe if schools served those items in place of (not in addition to) tater tots and french fries as side items, we would be one step closer to working through this obesity epidemic 😉
But pears… mmmm… I like those too!
Besides, one of the above is fabled to keep the doctor away 😉
@ Steve
Noone is asking the system to pay for their health problems and noone is forcing it to be given. People have to PAY for the vaccine.
As far as I am concerned Obesity is not the issue here. Honestly, I don’t care about it. If people care enough about themselves they will adapt a healthy lifestyle. I consider this about protecting young girls from HPV (in your view) and cancer (in my view). It is VERY important!
@ Jessica
Given Obesity is a vastly more serious problem than cervical cancer, why are the schools doing more to prevent cervical cancer than they are to prevent obesity?
Again, over 400,000 people die from heart disease per year. 4000 die from cervical cancer. I think you can do the math given the classes you took in high school.
Schools are doing virtually nothing about obesity, and are mandating HPV vaccinations when obesity is the far more serious risk.
Brett,
it must be the orange….no the apple…………surely it is snapple…… let me get this one right……the pear
well we actually had an aplle program at my school. each day against some small contribution, one would get a ticket and go and pick up an aplle for break. they even used reusable tickets over 30 years ago, but that was good old switzerland
Steve,
alright already, we concede about an hour ago that obesity is a much bigger and more expensive health problem.
BUT PLEASE WITH ICEING ON TOP (ot good calorie wise), can we do-gooder liberals please save women from getting cervical cancer. please steve let us do so, pretty please…
@ Steve:
why are the schools doing more to prevent cervical cancer than they are to prevent obesity?
Again, over 400,000 people die from heart disease per year. 4000 die from cervical cancer. I think you can do the math given the classes you took in high school.
Given that your using math in the second argument (a very justified argument at that), where are the facts and numbers in the first argument to finish up the equation? I still haven’t seen these anywhere in the discussion despite numerous requests…
Who says they’re doing more? And how much more are they doing?
But what your telling me is you will be happy when the money spent on obesity or heart disease is 100 times that of HPV (the ratio of deaths)?
steve,
even the poor have a right to be protected. i prefer my tax dollar go some poor girl and prevent her from getting cervical cancer than have it go to iraq, just a wee thought
@ Brett
Sorry, but you asked for it:
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2003/05/07/obesity-cancer-part-two.aspx
(obesity causes 100,000 cancer deaths per year)
http://healthlink.mcw.edu/article/1031002183.html
(this one says that obesity causes 300,000 premature deaths per year)
http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/topics/obesity/calltoaction/fact_consequences.htm
Even if it’s only 300,000
How many times more is 300,000 than 4,000? Which again deserve more focus??
@ Brett
For the love of God, read what I wrote. You question whether they are doing more for HPV than for obesity. They are MANDATING vaccinations for HPV. They are not mandating ANTYHING for obesity. They won’t even require students to exercise every day. So how are they doing something for obesity when they aren’t mandating even exercise, but mandate vaccines for HPV?
@ Jens
“BUT PLEASE WITH ICEING ON TOP (ot good calorie wise), can we do-gooder liberals please save women from getting cervical cancer. please steve let us do so, pretty please…”
I think Jens summed up my point about people not understanding what a vaccine can do, especially the HPV vaccine. Jens is an adult, and thinks people are safe if they get the vaccine when it in no way shape or form will stop all HPV or cervical cancer. If Jens thinks it make sthem safe, what would a 13 year old think?
Thanks for proving my point Jens.
the issue with obesity is that it leads to other problems like type 2 diabetis and we see this in children, heart disease, stroke, joint problems, gastrointestinal issues etc etc
the cost of obesity in the usa is estimated to be nearly 50 billion bucks a year, cheap compared to the bail-out of fail banks, though
I’m not debating the deaths Steve, I’m debating your mislead idea that HPV is getting more focus, attention, dollars, etc than heart disease, obesity, etc.
I didn’t ‘ask for it’ lol, and what I did ask for you still haven’t provided.
Just admit that its your perception and I will stop bugging you for the facts that don’t exist and let you live alone in your fantasy world.
steve,
it saves over 70%, so stop being A) insulting and personal and B) childish.
as a lawyer you should no that there is never a 100% risk reduction, but 70% is pretty good considering.
plus SAVE and SAFE is not the same. even i do know the difference, ejj, please read and understand before you insult me….
@ Steve
People have to pay for the vaccine.
Young girls will not be using this vaccine as a safety net. I did not use it as a safety net.
I don’t say the same thing about HPV. Tell that to the girl whose boyfriend told her that she must have contracted it from “swimming”. That’s right-she went swimming and caught HPV. But, I guess that’s not important.
@ Jennifer
” Tell that to the girl whose boyfriend told her that she must have contracted it from “swimming”. That’s right-she went swimming and caught HPV. But, I guess that’s not important.”
That reflects her poor choices in men. I assure you, girls will use the vaccine as a safety net. It’s like how Ros asked the female guest if abortion were off the table, would she go out and have drunken casual sex without a condom? After being pressured, she said “no”. People use things as a permission slip. If obseity is considered a disease then they don’t see them being able to do anything, thus they continue on doing what they do..
People seriously unerestimate the damage done when you enable people.
Mandatory vaccine which takes seconds to administer:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple
Mandatory daily exercise:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange
Besides, most schools still have PE….daily (or at least every other day).
When they make a vaccine for obesity we can have a level argument comparing the two. Until then why not focus on the crud food the schools serve the students, and the vending machines litering schools if we’re that concerned about obesity in schools? PE great idea! lets keep it up! Always a good break from the day to get out and run or play some ball with fellow classmates.
@ Jens
Who am I insulting, and how is you calling me childish not insulting?PLease explain the difference between save and safe? You said:
“BUT PLEASE WITH ICEING ON TOP (ot good calorie wise), can we do-gooder liberals please save women from getting cervical cancer.”
You want to save women from gettin cervical cancer, obviously from the HPV vaccine. So you mean it will make them safe. How can you save women from cervical cancer without them being safe from getting it due to the vaccine?
The vaccine even admits it only would stop 70% of it in its current forms, which will lose effectiveness.
So you said the vaccine can save women, when it in fact cannot. A false sense of security like this is the problem.
@ Brett
LOL
“Until then why not focus on the crud food the schools serve the students, and the vending machines litering schools if we’re that concerned about obesity in schools? PE great idea! lets keep it up! Always a good break from the day to get out and run or play some ball with fellow classmates.”
So they can give vaccines but can’t change their foods? Again, you question where they put more of a focus on?
LOL
stop. you’re killing me.
@ Steve
“Again, over 400,000 people die from heart disease per year. 4000 die from cervical cancer. I think you can do the math given the classes you took in high school.”
One (1) vaccination that prevents one form of cancer compared to 10 years of PE, numberious health classes, nutrion seminars and after school sports programs seems justifiable. Sadly, the mad doesn’t add up. Maybe it’s, because my trig class had no books, since the state would not pay for them. My geography teacher was the prom adviser, so that was more of an event planning class.
@ Steve
Her poor choices in men? I don’t think so!
Also, what does it matter if girls use the vaccine as a safety net? HPV is not the only STD out there so it does not mean that a girl could throw out all responsibility where birth control and good choices are concerned.
@ Steve
Schools are doing virtually nothing about obesity, and are mandating HPV vaccinations when obesity is the far more serious risk.”
I think we have different definition of virtually. In NYS, they are doing a lot more than other states.
@ Jessica
If you read the stories, it’s not one vaccination, they never several shots to get the full effect, and it doesn’t prevent all the cancers. Hence the false sense of security it will provide.
steve,
70% is not bad realy isn’t and the way you argued was childish and insulting. mainly insulting though, since you tried to reduce and compare my comments to the ones of a child…
whatever, the entire discussion is based on the fact that you do not care if women get cervical cancer, since it is their fault.
however, i do care about it.
i am ever so glad we agre about the obisity debate……although, we might disagree on how to solve it. in any event the sky here in the southwest is VERY BLUE
@ Jens
Please provide examples of your accusations. You’re the one who called me childish. I have never said anything like that.
Then you accuse me of wishing women get cervical cancer? Where do you come up with this stuff?
My point, which is the topic of this thread, is if schools should be drugging students. I don’t think they should. And that includes a non communicable illness that could only have an outbreak in class if the students had an orgy, unlike measles, mumps or rubella.
Steve you compare me to a child, maybe i misundrstood, then sorry for that.
no i did not say “YOU WISH”, i said “YOU DO NOT CARE” this is a huge huge difference.
again you did not read it properly…
uhh,
a quick re-edit as well
@ Jens
I in no way called you a child or childish, but you called me childish.
also you said ” you do not care if women get cervical cancer, since it is their fault.”
Where did you come up with that? You think I don’t care if women get it based upon my belief that it shouldn’t be for the schools to mandate a vaccine to prevent something they cannot acquire or spread in schools (assuming they aren’t having sex in schools)? That’s quite a leap there. All other vaccines in schools are to prevent outbreaks. Yet HPV is very different. Hence the shcool has no business mandating it. That’s the parents’ job.
@ Steve,
“They are not mandating ANTYHING for obesity.”
For the love of god, you read what you wrote. You can’t get a high school diploma without passing PE. Actually, you cannot advance from any grade K-8th grade without passing physical education class.
@ Jessica
Okay, so you might needa PE credit to graduate. They had that when I was in high school. But the are far more obese people now than when I graduated in 1993. So obviously they are not doing remotely enough and need to be doing more, which they aren’t, but are focused on less serious things like HPV.
@ Steve
I wouldn’t come out and say it but I think you don’t care if a woman gets cervical cancer just from your opinions in this conversation.
@ Steve
“If you read the stories, it’s not one vaccination, they never several shots to get the full effect, and it doesn’t prevent all the cancers. Hence the false sense of security it will provide.”
I did read the article, it’s one (1!) vaccination that must be administer in three doses that prevents one form of cancer. Who said ALL cancers? The world according to Steve? Please get informed.
steve,
your argument comes very much accros like that………since you take the porogative of taking a strong stand so do i.
anways i did apologized did i not. need some iceing on top of it, but it will not be good for your waistline though 😉
ohhh here I come in as the devil’s advocate. purely on an economic base the HPV vaccination makes no sense, (but then so does the war and we still are paying for it…..), but how can we quantify a family losing their mother or loved one….as long as the dollar rules we will never address diseases properly, because almost all diseases, especially the ones of the first world are hard core business….why cure them if you can treat them…
@ Steve
“But the are far more obese people now than when I graduated in 1993. So obviously they are not doing remotely enough and need to be doing more.”
Exactly! However, this has nothing to do with being more focused on HPV. This has to do with factors that are out side their control at the state and federal level. The FDA and government have a responsibility not to be using our tax player dollars on crappy food or to be making a blessed-buck by allowing coke and snapple machines on every floor of every school.
@ Jessica
But there is far more focus on HPV than there is on HPV. There was HPV back when I was in high school, and there was obesity. But the rates of obesity have gone up, but the HPV rates haven’t gone up, so why shoudl the focus be more on HPV when there’s more of a problem with obesity?
@ Jens
“Oh here I come in as the devil’s advocate. purely on an economic base the HPV vaccination makes no sense”
Excuse me? On a purely economic base, it is less costly to vaccinate a woman than pay for the cancer treatment. Geez!
Jessica,
a women yes, the cost of a vaccination is much much cheaper, but taking the cost of vaccination of all women, compared to the treatment cost of all cervical caner patiens. this has been one of the main arguments against the vaccination….
HOWEVER, it think it is imaterial since one cannot put a price tag on the life of a person….
i hope you get what i am trying to say, since i think all women, especially young ones should be vaccinated
@ Steve
“But there is far more focus on HPV than there is on HPV. There was HPV back when I was in high school, and there was obesity. But the rates of obesity have gone up, but the HPV rates haven’t gone up, so why shoudl the focus be more on HPV when there’s more of a problem with obesity?”
A lot of factors and research has changed. The fight against obesity has also changed. More money is used to educate people. Should, more be done? Absolutly, ref most of my post above. This is as much an arguement about nutrition as it is about exercise. Do you not care the role the state and federal government have played in this and deliberately ignoring it? If so I will leave you to keep harping on about obesity and parenting.
@ Jessica
I would think that the cost of vaccinating millions of schoolgirls, and basically 50% of the US population is not cheaper than treatin gthe 14,000 cases of cervical cancer per year.
@ Jens
I do understand and got your initial sarcasm, BUT I disapprove of using your version of economic “logic” as a means to say the vaccination doesn’t make financial sense. Oh, but of course from a conscious and moral perspective it makes total sense to vaccinate. =[
@ Jessica
Say if the vaccine turns out to do more harm than good? Would that make better moral sense? Given they have NO CLUE what the long term consequences of it are, you cannot possibly know. there are NO long term studies on it because it is so new. So you cannot possibly know.
@ Steve
This is the case with all drugs at one point. Look at hormones as a recent example. The FDA approved various hormone be used on meat and recent research has shown this is the direct effect of girls reaching puberty at a much younger age.
“Say if the vaccine turns out to do more harm than good?”
If you had used this point as the basis of your arguement, then I would have left you alone. Science has shown this to be true with almost all drugs. So if a parent want to take the risk with their kids, then it is their choice.
@ Jessica
But it’s not their choice. In some cases the schools mandate it and the parents aren’t allowe to object, which makes me know there is an agenda behind the HPV vaccine campaign. I can understand why parents shouldn’t be allowed to object to MMR vaccines, because your kids can pass it on in class and kill other students. But HPV can’t be passed on like that in class. There’s an agenda behind HPV vaccinations. Just like with Ritalin, though by a different group. And it were truly about saving lives and stopping the spread, they would be vaccinating boys as well.
@ Steve
They are not going to force a little girl to have a vaccination against her will at 9 years of age. They are doing studies to vaccinate men and boys as well. Please be genuine. There is no agenda behind HPV vaccinations! An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure! 😀
@ Jennifer
“An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure!”
LOVE IT!
@ Steve
Give it time…
@ Jessica
Courtesy of my mom-the person who comes up with the coolest saying ever! 😉
jessica,
IT IS NOT MY LOGIC. i think is fundamentaly flauwed but has been used as an arrgument. i just brought it up because nobody mentioned it and i find it actually rather repulsive how certain people argue health care on the basis of economics, while blowing over 5000 bucks a second in iraq.
i am sorry if i did not make that fundamentaly clear
when our first son (who is now 18) was diagnosed with adhd, the doctor suggested ritalin. I was against drugging him until the doctor asked me if i wore glasses? of course i did, he could plainly see them. he asked, why did i wear them? to focus, i replied. that’s exactly what ritalin will do for your son, he said.. think of them as glasses for the brain. my son went on ritalin and without that drug, and the various behavioural mods we have done over the years, i have no doubt he would be in jail today. instead, he is a first year cadet in a service academy and playing two sports, in addition to his school work and military training. to have refused him ritalin would have been the same as condemning him to certain failure.
@ Jens
No need to apologize, I understood your fundamental and sarcasm correctly. I do understand, that you are being the devil’s advocate, and as such I commented. Can of worms, buddy…
jessica,
unfortunatly it is one, because you start putting a monetary value on a human life and let’s just say, not all lifes are apparently equal in that equation…..
Jens,
*SIGH*
’tis the problem here… were are def not treated or valued equally no matter what is said during the election season.
@ Garry
I enjoyed reading your post. Sometimes medication is an asset. It is great that you coupled it with behavior modification. You should be very proud of your son! 🙂 He sounds like a son to be proud of.
Here is a direct link to the NICE guideline http://www.nice.org.uk/CG72. So don’t take my word for it, you can read for yourself.
It DOES NOT say parent training and education should be used instead of medication to treat ADHD.
There is conduct disorder, and there is ADHD. These are two different things. However, they can overlap in some children, and symptoms and manifestations are similar and it can difficult to discern between the two.
What the NICE documents do state is that drug treatment should only be used as a FIRST-LINE ADHD treatment for children with severe symptoms AND impairment. For less severe cases, the guidelines suggest parent and patient education and a wait-and-see period of up to 10 weeks. If symptoms and impairment do not improve during this time, then drug treatment is the next line of ADHD treatment.
In cases with severe symptoms and impairments, it is very clear that ADHD is the cause and medication is the most effective treatment. Since ADHD is a spectrum disorder (i.e. everyone is distracted sometimes, everyone is impulsive sometimes), in cases with moderate symptoms and impairment, the purpose of the education and wait-and-see period is to determine if symptoms are not the result of something else, such as conduct disorder or bad behavior.
The guidelines call for more comprehensive treatment of ADHD, i.e psychological and behavioral, not JUST drug treatment. Like if you have high cholesterol, you are better off if you eat healthier and exercise more instead of just taking a pill. If your cholesterol is only a slightly elevated, sometimes better diet and exercise is all you need.
Plain and simply, we have become a society too dependent on pharmaceuticals. We diagnose every problem and then buy the latest medication for the problem – Restless legs (we can control it), tiny bladder (we got that too), do you find yourself thinking in an exam (we got a pill for that).
We fall prey to researchers and pharmaceutical companies who collude to get our hard earned money and then lawyers who sue when the drug is found to have been harmful.
Why take a pill with 50 side effects to “control” one problem….if we drug the kids now, then can we reasonably expect them to grow normally. Will there be a pill to control the abnormality later, or will we just sue.
“warning some patients have indicated loss of appetite, loss of sleep and even death in clinical trials”
Why do we depend on a pill? an attention disorder is not a legitimate reason to have a prescription, especially ones like Ritalin. a kid took a bunch for a test, and just sulked around school for another week. His whole demeanor and personality changed. This drug is taken to frequently and without reasonable restraint.
Also, why do people go to doctors with the request of a pill? A doctor does not spend a third of his/her life to be told how to diagnose a patient based of a commercial. As the patient we are at the mercy of the doctors expertise. Why should some catchy slogan about an enlarged prostate or a acid reflux disease automatically formulate a reasonable and rational prognosis?
People must be more critical of what is fed to them on the television, internet, and radio. ( along with any other mass media source)
Jessica:
One (1) vaccination that prevents one form of cancer compared to 10 years of PE, numberious health classes, nutrion seminars and after school sports programs seems justifiable. Sadly, the mad doesn’t add up. Maybe it’s, because my trig class had no books, since the state would not pay for them. My geography teacher was the prom adviser, so that was more of an event planning class.
Again, apples and oranges. He refuses to understand that a vaccine is different from the 10 years of PE, nutrition classes, after school sports, etc. As if somehow the simple fact that there is a vaccine completely negates the schools focus on sports and fitness.
OMG!!! A VACCINE!!!! THEY DID MORE FOR HPV!!!!!!!
He still has yet to provide any concrete evidence to back this up aside from his perception and keeps skirting around the issue everytime its brought up, just attacking other points made in a post containing a request for the source of this incorrect information.
*sigh*
You can’t argue with someone who is being irrational and refuses to accept it. Well you can, but you wont get anywhere…. See above in the 200+ posts 😉
Brett,
🙂
but is that not part of his charm…..
Bret,
I hear ya, but somethings we can’t let the ignorant comment go and that is part of the fun. 😉
After the thalidomide horrors of decades ago there are plenty of reasons why people shoud be concerned about the use of drugs to alleviate or cure illnesses. Any drug to be put on the market must first face the most rigorous tests available with no exceptions allowed before it can be sold. The rest is a matter of decision making pro and con by the consumer. The big danger to be avoided is to be afraid of science in medical practice based on “scare stories”.
@ Emile
That’s a good point, though with Thalidomide, the mother took the drug, to deal with morning sickness, and as a result, some children had severe birth defects. I saw once someone who had this, when I worked as a cashier at a grocery store. He was a frenchman, and his arms were incredibly short and basically didn’t go down like normal arms. Just giving his change to him was very difficult. He paid the price for officials who allowed a drug to go on the market without substantial enough testing.