To lesser or greater extents this is an issue for women in every country in the world. We’re taking our lead from reaction to several stories from Egypt, India and Russia. If you’re a woman, have you been harassed? What happened and how did you react? Should men be dealt with by strict laws? Is an immediate response the best idea? Or is nothing sometimes the thing to do?
And to all of you, how do you define harassment? Are there some circumstances where it’s understandable that men communicate their attraction to a woman they see in public? If women dress or behave in certain ways, should they expect men to want to touch them?
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BBC World Have Your Say 
Yes.Women should react strongly to sexual harassment.especially at the work places.A mong Many other factores females continue to safer in-
1.Homes in the hands of their own parents.In kenya we recently had a case where a girl was raped by her father.So will Will or Abdi Spare her?
2.Many continue to give in to their bosses in fear of been sacked.They fulfill his sexual desires in order for them to get Promotions.
3.Others find themselves in very difficults conditions of life,especially here in africa where one finds no one to turn to after his/her parents death.Hence it forces them to sell their own Body.
4.Otheirs are been sexually harassed because they are under aged.It’s very easy to cheat a girl of 14-16 years.Many Gentlemen buy them Drinks,Chips and Chocholates just to harass them sexually.
My MESSAGE TO LADAY’s
The time to say NO.is Know.THERE COMES A TIME IN LIFE WHEN ONE HAS TO SAY NO,IRRESPECTIVE TO WHO
you should never allow male beats to pit you.Once you follow legal procedures all men will stop this very bad behaviour.
I also suggest that those male who harass females should be castrated or jailed for life but not sentenced to death as they should be made to feel the pain.
@ All
As Will Rhodes Said Yesterday.What we are currently experiencing in WHYS is unheard off,so please lets watch out and respectful to one a nother.So many of us have complained against Mr X.So let’s see what WHYS will decide.. yours faithfully..Abdi..
I don’t think that there’s even ONE woman in this world who hasn’t felt harassed by men at one point or another in her life. I worked for four years as a flight attendant, and the amount of jokes, ranging from stupid to extremely stupid, far surpassed the thousands, ALL of them coming from pilots.
Harassment is not when a man just looks at you, unless he’s staring incessantly over a long period of time, making you feel uncomfortable. But when he starts touching you for no good reason, coming closer than you feel comfortable with, that’s when harassment starts. And when a man asks you how many orgasms you’ve had in your life, well that’s really harassing. Clothing has nothing to do with it, and at my previous work I had very little choice over my work-uniform and it was decent anyway.
In the end I believe it’s a way where men think that they can exert power over a woman just simply by making her feel uncomfortable. The best thing a woman can do in this situation is just laugh and shrug it away, then he will stop and move on… to the next woman.
Sexual harassment … that’s an interesting topic! I have had my deal of it too. Men who think that they can touch you here and there just because they feel the need to or because other women allow it.
I am strongly against it! And I think that those men who practice making a woman’s life HELL via harassment should be dealt with harshly!
As I said in the other HYS, it really depends on location. In a conservative nation, negative attention is pretty uncalled for as the women tend to dress very conservatively. In the west, where women sometimes dress like streetwalkers, they cannot suddenly get offended when they get attention from someone they don’t want, when they are out dressed to get attention. sometimes you’ll get attention from men you don’t want if you dress that way. Not every guy that hits on you is going to look like Brad Pitt.
I experienced it from a ‘friend’ of mine while attending University. It made me so furious that I used the only weapon i had then; a pen, to stab @ him! I acted in my anger, and I didn’t regret it. I wanted him to see that I didn’t apreciate what he did, or what he attempted to do! It has made me become very cautious and more aware of males I consider my friends, and my defense mechanism towards them has also intensified.
Can any male tell us why it’s done? Why do they need to act on their impulses? Where is the CONTROL? 😦
Here’s a funny Saturday Night Live skit about sexual harassment in the workplace, it’s so funny because it’s so true.
As a former female coworker told me, “it’s only sexual harassment if you aren’t attracted”
http://www.transbuddha.com/content/snl-sexual-harassment-you/
@ Steve:
Thats EXACTLY the clip I was looking for when I saw this title. We’ve spoken about it on here in the past. I can’t get enough of it haha.
@ Devra
It’s simple, becuase women reward very agressive men, and dismiss men that aren’t aggressive. If you ask just about every guy, he’s failed miserably with women if he was “respectful” with women, and was far more successful when he was aggressive. The best way to strike out with a woman is to be non aggressive, sexually with her. I’m sure just about every male on here can confirm this.
As a male, I find sexual harassment against females disgusting, and can’t excuse it on such feeble grounds as, “One should expect and handle this behavior,” &c. Katharina in Ghent is spot-on in her assessment of what constitutes harassment.
I think in today’s world the meaning of sexual harassment has been broaden than ever before. Because the way of sexual harassment also has been increased. Web world is becoming the major platform of virtual sexual harassment. So in my opinion it is necessary to redefine the meaning of sexual harassment.
Sexual harassment is being a major problem because of poor legal framework and open society. Verbal or written, Physical, Nonverbal and visual are the some examples of sexual harassment.
@ Hansha
Can you elaborate on what you describe is virtual sexual harassment?
here in nepal what we see is women generally ingnore any act of sexual harrasment towards them .unless women respond strongly toward this kind of atitude menwill take them for granted.womwen should give bold response to these kind of people.
Let’s ask Justice Clarence Thomas 🙂
Responding to sexual harassment, especially in the workplace, needs to be repsonded firmly and quickly. As someone who has worked in a male dominated work environment I have experienced some of the crudest comments, which I responded to quicky and firmly. One time I did have to go over someone’s head to drive the point home that it needs to stop before I take legal action. It was not about whether or not the man was ‘good looking’, it was unwanted. I never went into work dressed in anything other than the company approved uniform, which was black pants and company issued polo shirt. There was not a ‘sexual’ thing about it.
If there is no Demand, there would be no Supply. Cut off the demand and there is a fair chance sexual harassment would reduce.
@ Steve:
This is not about dresscodes! The story started on the Talking Points about women in Egypt getting harassed – I’m sure they dress modestly, keep their eyes down etc. and yet they get harassed! And no, we don’t want men to be aggressive towards us, respectful behaviour will bring you much further with 95% of the women and the rest aren’t worth mentioning.
@ Nelsoni:
Are you implying that there’s a demand by Egyptian women to be harassed?
@ Katharina
I had mentioned in my first post that in Egypt, I can’t see why this is happening, and thus it’s a serious issue that must be dealt with. I was drawing the comparison of the west, where women act shocked if they dress in revealing clothes, that men they don’t find attractive may given them attention.
“And no, we don’t want men to be aggressive towards us, respectful behaviour will bring you much further with 95% of the women and the rest aren’t worth mentioning.”
I wish that were the case, but from my experience, and everyone else that I know, this is not the case, and you can pretty much flip the numbers around. Every guy I know fails with women when he is “respectful” and is much more successful when he is very, very aggressive. I’m sure any of the male posters on here can verify this.
Steve,
I’m not sure I get what you’re saying. There is nothing more charming than a man who is respectful. I’m sorry but I am and was never attractive to AGGRESSIVE men! Maybe not all women feel this way. But aggression is not the way to go!
This is not about how one appears like
i will speak from my experience in Egyptian street; men can anticipate women reaction sometimes; will she be ok with that; will she be angry; will she be shy to react…. so my experience says raising the voice and insulting to attract everyone s attention is good way to keep him away. as he is afraid of being beaten by enthusiastic folk….
@ Steve
I think there’s a difference between “aggressive” and “assertive”. The first is when you pursue the woman to the point where she starts to fear you, the second is when you show her that you really care for her. Now that’s a very thin line that divides the two, but basically, as long as she apprecdiates you attention, you’re “assertive in your interest in her”, when she starts to despise your attention and you don’t give up, that’s “aggressive”. And I don’t think that there are many women out there who will change their minds after they started despising you.
If it were easy to enter a new realtionship, we wouldn’t make such a big deal out of it… sigh…
@ Devra
Perhaps jamaica is different than the US. But ask yourself, if their tactics don’t work, why do so many men do that? Hence, it must have a better success rate than being “respectful.” I almost laugh myself to death seeing how aggressive works. I was in montreal this weekend, and saw a guy walking down the sidewalk, he saw a girl on a payphone talking, we walks up to her, tells her that she’s hot. She ignored him, then he said “that’s rude” and grabbed the phone, said “she’ll call you back” and hanged it up. She yelled for a second, then they began talking. I came back 5 or so minutes later, they were still there,and they both went off together to some place..
The reason why men do that stuff, is because being aggressive works. Women reward (of course not in all cases) that behavior.
I used to be very shy, and as a result wasn’t very aggressive (believe me, today I’m not remotely like that montreal guy) and I would fail over and over again because women want very aggressive men. I learned to overcome it. But the “respectful” thing is a recipe for failing with women virtually 100% of the time, whereas you can be incredibly rude and have a much higher success rate.
In Japan, a Japanese woman I know was sexually harassed at work. As her boss is male and old, she was unable to take action against him due to Japanese society being male-dominated.
Although she rejected his advances (they are both married to other people), his WIFE found out about his husband’s actions and blamed HER for the harassment. The wife emailed my student and told her she would commit suicide if she “flirted with her husband again”.
The Japanese woman found it difficult to tell anyone else as there was no support network and hardly any female senior workers in her division or company, so she just put up with it (in Japanese, they say “shoga nai”, or “it can’t be helped” and “ganbare” or “put up with it”).
However, although the measures are a little strange in Japan, there are some measures. for example, the (hardly used and critisised) “female only” train carriages at peak journey times are available due to sexual abuse on trains by some Japanese men.
Regardless, I feel that Japan is a long way away from the sexual equality women may at least feel they deserve in my own country of the UK.
@ Katharina
Maybe it’s a generational thing, but being “assertive” in your interest in a woman actually makes her lose interest in you. The best method a guy can use is by limiting his interest, by making a connection, then disconnecting, because she’s prety used to having many guys pursuing her. If you show a lot of interest, she will think you aren’t a challenge.
once again, I think just about any guy can confirm this.
Steve:
I don’t agree at all: your experiences might validate such aggressive tendencies vis-á-vis women, but I and everyone else in my household find the image of the sexually-charged, panting, ultramasculine male distinctly unpleasant. Although I can’t say I’ve treated every female I’ve ever come into contact with respectfully, I can say that treating my female friends and colleagues with respect and understanding has gone much farther than others I have witnessed who take a hard-line, much more aggressive stance with women as colleagues/peers and friends.
As a male, I categorically disagree with the idea that being aggressive (a euphemism for “manly”) is somehow desirable when dealing with the opposite gender.
@ Steve!
Many thanks for your query. My point is that nowadays sexual harassment can occur and cross the boarders in a variety of circumstances and ways. Web world is only the medium.
I think in sexual harassment, the victim does not only have to be physically harassed but also by mentally. That’s why I said web world is becoming the major platform of sexual harassment.
Respectful doesn’t have to mean diffident or shy and retiring. It is entirely possible for a man to communicate effectively with a woman…even have fun…without unwanted sexual advances or innuendos.
As for Cairo, in my visits there I’ve noticed that the men try to conform to what they consider a macho image. This applies in all aspects of life–business, driving, dealings with other men…and their attitudes to women. I, for one, am please that woman are not longer accepting this but I fear it will be a long, hard struggle to change attitudes.
The problem as with many of these issues is that the definition is vague and varies from person to person as well as situation to situation. One girl’s “flirting” is another girls “harassment”. You can wave a dollar in the face of a woman and expect different outcomes. in an Office, that would be considered offensive in most cases. Yet not doing it at a strip club is considered offensive. A dance club where girls are dancing on the bar, there is a grey area. You may not offend the girls dancing, but other women around might feel uncomfortable.
Filling a kiddy pool full with pudding at an office Christmas party would be offensive, doing it at a bachelor’s party is expected.
The point is that a specific incident and person must be identified before the discussion can be fruitful. Otherwise it will end up as a typical tug of war with debaters arguing the opposite ends of the extremes.
If you show a lot of interest, she will think you aren’t a challenge.
Unless she’s really into you already. But if shes on the fence, Steve has it spot on.
This is not as well how one appears or walks, we should give respect to our sisters, mothers and grandparents. whenever they are they command some respect from us and above all, they should know that we need them as they need us.
sexual harrasment not only goes to woman only but they too do harass us sexuallyly.
the bottom line is we need to respect each other and obsserve a mark of self discipline.
thanks
This is may bit off topic though but Men are also sexually harassed by women although few men are ever willing to talk about it, I have had a few close calls, so it does happen.
@Nelsoni:
Agree completely…I think that “macho” image is a major element in why men do not report sexual harassment.
@ nelsoni
YOu have to not enjoy it for it to be harassment. I’ve been grabbed by women before, and I didn’t care in the slightest, hence it wasn’t harassment. But there would be a point, if a guy when to the authorities about sexual harassment, he would probably get laughed at.
Hello!
Thank you for your email. This is a tricky question, but it should start with a definition, as you’ve mentioned.
There are ways of cmmunication among people defined by conventional etiquette which preserve human dignity and exclude beastly ways. The problem nowadays is that men, especially those those that are rude and low and, judging by the press, even those that are influential and superior, overstep the limits. And then problems, endless discussions and legal cases ensue. Men should be reminded that there is no single category of women as there is no single rule of behaviour. Humanity has been fostered for centuries. Temperance has never been harmful. Why should all heritage to be human in a dignified and pleasant way be brushed aside mainly because the twentieth century undressed woman publicly? Thank you.
Marija Liudvika Rutkauskaite
I’ve been harassed plenty of times on the job. I even had a complaint with the State of California many years ago, and on another job, my contract was cut short for making complaints (totally illegal, but I couldn’t prove the cause-and-effect except that a female coworker had warned me it would happen if I stood up for myself). The problem is that, as much as I’d like to say here, it’s not going to have any impact on the knuckle heads going hardy har har over that SNL skit. The guys who think a woman wants to be harassed if the guy is good looking enough or because of what she wears — those guys will never understand. They’re emotionally stunted, their brains wired directly to their crotches, bypassing their good sense, compassion, maturity and decency. They blame the woman for everything, taking no responsibility for their actions.
Believe me, I deal with harassment at work swiftly and directly. And, if it’s severe, I won’t leave the guy much to hold when he takes a leak. Seriously, men should know better. But often they don’t — especially the good looking ones because they think they’re god’s gift. They are the most annoying ones. All I want to do is work and get my job done. I like my career. I don’t need to waste time kicking garbage out of the way while I’m making money and a name for myself. They are enough challenges without this nonsense. Anything less than a respectful workplace bogs down productivity and no one can do their best work.
@ Bob:
Respectful doesn’t have to mean diffident or shy and retiring.
But it does mean showing humility when being rejected or when someone is clearly not interested. Most macho guys don’t like to suck it up and deal with the fact that someone could not want them.
@ Steve, One does not have to enjoy it for it to be harassment but the acts could well be documented as sexual harassment but like you rightly said, for a man reporting sexual harassment, people would think you have lost a few screws upstairs ..
Firstly, i must say it is cruel to solicit an form of amity with women through force. Most women will resist depending on the situation at hand for example they easily give in to their bosses, and could resist a rude stranger. @ Devra, from rudimentary biology, you will agree that some nervous innervations are involuntary. Once a hormonal impulse is triggered, most men just cant suppress it. Which there was a way to stop people from harrassing others.
Men, and women alike, should be held accountable for how they treat others. I don’t think that strict laws will help the issue. I think it comes back to parenting and community values. As a community we are not standing firm on the value of respect for those around us, thus people, namely women in this discussion, get treated with ill-regard. Too address the matter of men touching women, they definitely should not without consent of the woman in question. Men need to learn to respect women as people, and not treat them as objects whose purpose is to fulfill their every desire. That being said, women, especially those who have been harassed, understand the risk they take when they dress (in some women’s case, barely dress) to draw attention. They are fully aware that men are drawn to certain looks, and they continue to dress in that fashion. I am not saying that it is the woman’s fault for being harassed, but it is within their power to minimize that risk.
That’s just my two cents. Thanks for this venue for discussion! I enjoy this broadcast.
@ kelsiejackson. Yeah. That “Macho” image would not think it was harassment. Another name would be coined up. Since men are too “Macho” to report, we would probably not have credible stats to show that sexual harassment by women on men also deserve media attention too.
@ Nelsoni:
for a man reporting sexual harassment, people would think you have lost a few screws upstairs ..
Exactly, try working in the service industry. At restaurants / bars I’ve worked at, the females sexually harrass the males just as much as the other way around. Of course most of the guys like the positive attention so they don’t say anything (just like the SNL skit lol), but the negative comments and attention, the men hardly ever do anything due to associated embarrasment that would come along with saying anything about the situation.
Sexual harrasment is sometimes a serious issue, but generally my reaction is to laugh it off. For a semester last year I worked in a liquor store on campus across from my apartment building (i know, very glamorous- but hey it paid the bills). No matter what I wore, or what I did, as one of the only girls who worked there I always got comments from our mostly customers- sometimes EXTREMELY crude comments. Luckily I worked with a bunch of guys that didn’t appreciate it, and they generally asked said customers to leave.
What I learned from that experience though, is it didn’t matter what i looked like, what i wore, or who i was- I was going to get comments regardless. Maybe a liquor store isn’t the best sample, to put it in research terms, but it was my personal experience.
As a sidenote, when i’m out with my roommates shopping or whatever- we always get comments and whatnot. I think for a lot of women, it’s just something you get used to. Whether that’s a good thing or not is debatable.
Laura in Minneapolis
@ Steve and Nelsoni. At times a woman who is harrassed will enjoy the machoism of the doer. The point whether she is pleased with the end result, the initiation was cruel and illegal and so therefore the act to be wrong. The should always be a mutual consent in everything that is sex and satisfaction related.
@ Brett, Well said!!
@ Maria
The SNL skit is funny because it’s such an accurrate description of what offices are like in in the US. If Milton from Office Space asked out a female coworker, he would get a complaint against him, but if Tom Brady did the same thing, she would be thrilled… As a female coworker told me just before we went out on a date “it’s only sexual harassment if you aren’t attracted” as I had hesistations on going on a date with a coworker.. And if anything, she had been sexually “harassing” me, but I didn’t mind in the slightest.
I want to share a recent experience regarding this issue.
Last week I was waiting for my boss (a senator) in a breakfast organized by his political party. I was dressed in a black pantsuit and a loose blouse. My outfit was not revealing. One of the politicians that attended -and has a very bad reputation regarding sexual harassment- immediately started to look at me in a very crude way, specially my breast area. I felt really uncomfortable; I was the only women in the room at that point. I stared back at him with my face “what are you looking at?” He didn’t look back. When my boss stepped into the room, he stopped looking at me.
I told my co-workers -I am also the only woman in the office- about the very uncomfortable 15 minutes I had to endure. One of them -although sympathetic- told me that I should wear jackets in that kind of meetings. He is married and has daughters; I thought he would be outraged by what happened to me. It was not the case, he immediately blame me for the harassment.
Other co-worker, a single childless young straight man (who definitely would not “settle” into married life soon) was outraged. He told me that my outfit was right, that it wasn’t my fault. That even if I wear revealing outfits, there is not excuse to look at me like that. He was very supportive. It was a nice surprise, for a change.
My conclusion is that sadly, in many cases, the woman is blamed for being sexually harassed. It is the patriarchal idiosyncrasy that still reigns in the world (in some countries more than in others) and that it is usually the exception when men vocally denounce sexual harassment against women and feel outraged by it.
Women still suffer from being seen just a sexual tool by men. There are many women who don’t seek to report the harassment they suffer from, especially verbal harassment.
In general, unmarried young men are the most likely to harass young women. This can happen in crowded buses and streets where the harasser uses the lack of space for “inadvertent” physical touch.
Still in some societies, some women see verbal harassment by men as an expression of admiration. They like to hear what men think of them sexually although they pretend not to hear what they are saying.
But as long as there isn’t a vigorous law to deal with harassment, women will continue to be its victim, especially those seeking respect and wanting to be seen as persons and not just as mere bodies.
In the US, Sarah Palin, the republican Canidate for Vice President of the United States is having to put up with all sorts of harrasment by the media because she is a woman.
If she wasn’t a womans, would they be viewing her family so?
They even posed her with Bush’s Wife and McCains wife.
They are just wives of the candidates. She IS a Candidate for the Vice Presidency of the United States. She should be treated with the same respect as Joe Biden the other Vice President candidate.
So even in the USA, harrasment becasue you are female goes on….
@ Steve : It’s sexual harassment if you are not interested . To a certain extent that may be correct, because in certain cases where Ladies are sexually harassed by Men and vice versa, complaints are not lodged because they simply enjoy the attention but if some one else tries that same stunt, a prompt report of sexual harassment is swiftly filed. So there’s certain merit in that statement but I must add not in all cases.
Hmmm. “It’s sexual harrassment when you’re not interested”.
True to a point, but perhaps this points up part of the problem: the assumption that every social contact between men and woman should have sexual connotations.
@ Tom
It’s getting hard to deny that media isn’t biased anymore. They are really, really going after her, though the investigation is a legit reason to have issues.
I think i meant to say “it’s sexual harassment if you aren’t attracted”. That’s what a female coworker said to me, and I’ve heard others say that before.
Even if an advance is unwanted at work, generally, in the US, one time isn’t enough. If a woman says she doesn’t like that, if the man does it again, then a complaint can be made. But you can’t be found liable for sexually harassing a woman by asking her out on a date one time or telling her she looks nice one time.
@ Tom Popp
Hillary Clinton got the same sort of media “attention”, didn’t she? And she ran for president… The only thing that was different there was that she was running against a black candidate, so the media couldn’t decide whether they should go against her because she’s a woman or him because he’s black.
Good morning, Ros –
I think one help Egyptian women could use is to always carry
a light riding crop when out on the street. I always carry one
when walking my dog and once had to use it when a nut ( who
must have been on drugs ), refused to leash his part-Pit Bull
which had put a man in the hospital the day before with a
torn arm. He came at me with arms raised and, altho struggling
with my two dogs and trying to ward off his dog, I got a couple
good blows in on his shoulder before he grabbed it and
managed to break it in two. Then he ran off. I am 78 years
old and think every woman should have a crop in her hand for
just such unexpected scenes and harassment. A slash
across the face with a whip would teach Egyptian men a
lesson pretty fast – might get adverse media blare, but
if the custom became common, women could walk abroad
in Egypt whenever they darn well needed/wanted to. Just
because centuries of being doormats has let men get away
with this sort of thing, doesn’t mean it has to continue. Get
some steel in your spine, women, and Go Girl Go !
Mim
@ Steve:
Personally, I wouldn’t consider a one-time “You look nice today” or “How ’bout lunch together” as sexual harassment at all, but when these statements come all the time from the same person, then he’s just an attention-seeking harasser.
@ Mim
I can’t believe you are suggesting that women assualt men for looking at them or making comments? You can’t use physical harm in response to works or being looked at. You can use resonable force to stop contact with you, but when you are getting harassed, it’s normally just works or being looked at. To use violence against that, would I would pray, would land you in jail.
@ Katharina
In the sexual harassment training we have at work, making comments such as “you look nice today” can constitute sexual harassment if they are unwanted, but doing it one time isn’t enough. The person has to say it makes the uncomfortable, and if the person does it again, then a complaint can be filed. In summary, the presented basically said, to be safe, don’t date or compliment coworkers.
Hi WHYSers!
Interesting topic, Ros.
While, I do not think there is ever any excuse for sexual harrassment, regardless of whether a man or woman is attracted to another person or not, I am curious to know the following:
Is sexual harrassment (a milder version of rape?) about attraction or power?
Are women the only people who can be sexually harrassed? What about men and minors? And,
What of other men who also harrass men, sexually (?), because of positions of power which they hold over others, as well as more powerful women who oppress other women who are not as powerful?
How do we treat with those situations?
Given the very long hours people spend at work and the often very ‘intimate’ conditions under which most people work, I wonder if there is a need to revise some of the boundaries of what are considered ‘personal space’?
I am aware that there are people who constantly wish to communicate their likeness for other people, however, I wonder whether one cannot remain professional and still communicate feelings of regard for another person?
my lab is exclusivly staffed by you women, not by design, but by the fact somehow i got the repution of being a great mentor. this was actually rather starnge since this is my first lab as principle investigator. it is even stranger since my work place is male dominated. you can imagine what kind of stuid rumors and jokes are going around. nevermind, even though i never wanted a all femal lab due to experiances of my wife, we have a fantasic lab, since everyone has equal say and the women know that i will step in when anybody attacks them in any form. this has actually developt into an interesting relationship, where real trust has been build up. plus our lab is everything but pc. in such an enviroment it is ultra important that everybody knows they are respected to the highest degree.
raw,
you can. there is nothing wrong in saying “nice hair cut” or “looking good/happy etc today”. in my lab we say such things regularly and i think it makes everybody feel good when you complement them on let’s say weight loss, haircut, new cloths etc.
To me, women usually invite sexual harasment to themselves because of the way they dress.Women are mothers and are supposed to be role models in society, but if a woman dresses in a sexual provoking manner,what do you espect from a man who is sexually starved? He will definately rape or see her as a sex object because of the provocation of the dress code.Call me on +256-712-879064
I was a manager of a sporting good store. Here was what happened to a friend at another store:
There was a female, who was a brat and always wanted things her way. One day when she didn’t want to do her work, my friend said “why yes your princess!”. She called Loss Pervention, said that he said it in a sexual manner, and then he was transfered and told not to talk to her after. Then, the new manager was told not to fire her of “be mean” for any reason for fear of a lawsuit.
Complete load!!!
-Anthony, LA, CA
@ Jens,
I agree totally. I even think it is completely legitimate to transact sexual and romantic relationships with your colleagues, just not the most advisable, especially if and when the relationships go sour. My rule is to keep out of all likelihood of that happening by treating everybody the same way. Of course, there are some people that I am ‘naturally’ closer to than others. Still, I try to treat everyone the same.
@ Jens
“you can. there is nothing wrong in saying “nice hair cut” or “looking good/happy etc today”. in my lab we say such things regularly and i think it makes everybody feel good when you complement them on let’s say weight loss, haircut, new cloths etc.”
Actually those comments could constitute sexual harassment. All they have to do is be unwelcome and made known they are unwanted (meaning a second time you say “nice shoes” you could be out of a job). We were told, to be safe, don’t compliment coworkers on anything except their work product.
Steve,
it very much depends how you say it. i do not feel harrased by somebody saying “nice haircut, nice shoes”. it’s a statement. it also really depends on how you interact with people you complement. i would not dream to say this to somebody i do not know or i interact with regularly. we have a very equal relationship and we mock one another equally as we say “nice shoes”.
@ Jens
But that’s irrelevant. Some people get offended by just about anything, hence why sexual harassment can be pretty subjective, hence why you aren’t supposed to even risk it at work. Nice haircut and shoes implies you have been looking at them and noticed, and some people will be offended by that. And let’s not forget, a lot of harassment claims are from those who don’t get the comments, who are resentful, and they make allegations of a hostile work environment, due to how they feel about not getting comments. That’s another reason why you don’t comment at work, because of the person not getting the comments might be bitter.
Back in Cameroon, it is common knowledge that when a girl dresses in a manner that is sexually provocative, her aim is to entice men and thus any harassment that accrues is her fault. As such, this issue varies from place to place depending on the core values there.
wow! people feel strongly about this, seemed like i was going to keep on scrolling down forever page to write my comment. Women should reject and take a stand against sexual harrasment. In my country i bet 90% of women have been sexually harrased by relatives, guardians, bosses at one point. And its not just because of how we wear our clothes or how we walk. Some men dont even see it as harrasment. They keep on thinking if they touch you you’ll become attracted to them or if they call you every 10 minutes you’ll think they care – they will not accept your no is a no! and it is frustrating if the guy is your boss or a relative as you feel there is nothing you can do about it. If your guardian chases you back to the villages – where will you be? If your boss fires you how will you sustain? It all comes down to respect, for yourself as well as for those around you!!
Heres how to ALWAYS have a job if you’re a woman in California:
1) Find a job with males
2) Claim that one or two of them made sexual comments
3) When ever you want something like a raise, or day off, or just don’t feel like working, you just have to say “I think I’m being treated unfair, and that they are taking revenge because I told on them”.
Thats it, you’ll always have a job and never have to work as hard 🙂
-Anthony, LA, CA
steve,
did i not say we treat one another equaly in my lab and have the highest respect for one another??
it depends on how you interact with people. i seriously doubt that anybody in my close enviroment would even closly suggest that these comments are harrassment. due to my position, i am very aware of how to interact with people, especially women, since my lab is staffed in the age range 18-27. in fact if anything i am a go to point for women who are dissatisfied with their work enviroment, because i am taking discrimination of any sort seriously and will communicate this to managment. you have no idea what stories i have heard. maybe women like working for or me because i treat them as absolut equal and not something special. us lot say “nice shoes” because we mean it and not because we are a bunch of smary little gits. we equally say “now that is an ugly green jacket”.
@ Jens
What’s to say you won’t one day employ someone who gets offended by a shoes comment? Because you don’t find it offensive doesn’t mean that others won’t find it offensive.
RE: Harrasment of women
————————————————————————————————————-
——- It’s apples to oranges comparing the harrassment downtrodden 3rd world type women go through compared to Western women who have plenty of rights in the workforce and 911 if things get out of hand.
What’s happening in these 3rd world countries is as they adopt Western lifestyles and economies, males are being exposed to western porn and have a lot of unfufilled fantasies that they act on. Traditional social norms are being broken down like in any developing country so more agressive incidents seem to be happening.
Many western women have put the shoe on the other foot these days. I saw one of the kindest, most gentle men I’ve ever known be written up for sexual harrassment simply because the young ditzy girl didn’t like the way he looked at her and wanted to flex some muscle at work.
I’ve had women rub up against me at work in the most obvious way possible, had one stick her breasts into my face when I was on my knees unjamming the printer, and another flashed me. I was almost written up myself when the young company receptionist volunteered to type up a resource request for me back when we didn’t have a document program for our computers. Some bigshot obviously was threatened that she happened to be nice and volunteered me a professional favor.
When western women stop endangering my job, maybe I can take their claims more seriously as a whole class. I cannot prevent boorish clods from acting on them, but it’d be nice if more women showed some class in public themselves.
Why should anyone react less than strongly to any form of harrassment? Whether you are a woman being harrassed by a man about your sex, or someone overweight behing harrassed about it, or whatever… harrassment is harassment. Harassment is a person or persons excersising their feelings of superiority through the belittling of others. There’s nothing good or justifiable about that, whether you are a woman or a man.
I just don’t understand the desire to split off sexual harrassment from the greater issue of harassment in general. If my boss makes a joke about my weight, and I NEED the job so I can’t really respond, I feel just as bad as a woman when her boss makes a joke about her sex, and she NEEDS the job and feels she can’t respond.
Steve,
That montreal story is funny! :D:D:D:D
And myabe ur right … maybe u hav a point, there is a little bit of attraction towards aggression/being assertive. But not where that montreal guy is concerned! I think that was rude.
steve,
tha is why you have interviews and interact with people for sometime, before you complement their shoes. i make it clear that the work enviroment is build on equal trust and that we are not a laboratory of pc, we use apples ;). plus it might just be inherend that biology folks are a little bit more of a lose bunch than other job directions. i have never worked in a pc lab, maybe it has also to do with the fact that we treat one another as friends. this is probably best illustrated by the fact that i have staunch republicans and almost socialist democrates working next to one another, communicating their political views and then go out together and play soccer and have fun. i am personnaly proud of having such a dynamic and great group working for me, who do not look upon me as their ‘boss’ but more their mentor and friend, whom they can trust with any problem
@ Devra
Yes, it was rather extreme, but he had better odds of being successful with the tactic he took than being more “respectful” and nonaggressive. That’s just the way the world (or at least the west) works. If you aren’t very aggressive with women, you will aggressively fail with women. I don’t think any male in N. American can deny this as fact.
And heres the funny thing, not only can you not tell a sex joke to women, but you’re not supposed to tell it to your best buddy at work because then your excluding others, and it makes them feel alienated.
California won’t be happy until we can talk about NOTHING unless it has to do with your job.
-Anthony, LA, CA
Women actually hold all the power. Just tell crude men to grow up and learn how to spark interest with quiet confidence.
Obvious crudeness only works with hungry women who usually carry diseases.
Worthwhile women usually prefer good breeding stock, not stupid people.
Also beware, there are women who prefer to destroy the stupid ones with over active glands.
What the world needs is a larger proportion of deadly women to put an honest check and balance on preditory men. They don’t actually have to kill them, just humiliate them or tazer them then when they are down stomp their gonads into pulp that will leave them with a strong message to think about.
This sort of thing would be especially helpful in those Islamic cultures where religous nut cases go around beating up women in barkas.
troop
The reason there are no easy answers here is that women react differently to the same behavior, depending on circumstances. Perhaps the biggest problem is that too many guys are too plain stupid to understand what a particular woman might appreciate and what she might not. Women are different. You can usually tell.
I’ve been embarrassed many times by what a guy will do or say to a woman. Like, staring her down in an elevator, or making comments in a club. When you mention this to them, their reaction is often, “They love it.” Funny thing is, some actually do. Go figure.
In the workplace, I find it unacceptable for any male to make comments about what a woman looks like, is wearing, her weight, or anything else personal like that. It’s simply unnecessary, only asking for trouble. Just be professional. Lack of self control, even just in what you say, is hardly “manly.” Makes the guy seem like an idiot, as far as I’m concerned.
@ Riddler562
I wonder if these culture of fear will continue to feminize men. If men are completely nonaggressive, there won’t be many men that women will even be attracted to given they like men to be very aggressive. These actions will have consequences. I still don’t see how wise it is to tell sex jokes at work, but outside of work, of course. Some of the filthiest mouths I’ve ever heard in public and in bars has been women.
Women should at all times react negatively and measure for measure to sexual harassment. Such demeaning attention is at all times improper. What I find remarkably interesting is how males react to this topic. Men should react in exactly the same way as should women; but many don’t! It hurts my soul every time someone writes or says, “She asked for it,” as if vulnerability conveys the right to act immorally. To them I say, “Try looking at this from the other side for a moment.” The ultimate object of discussion in society is not merely to describe its condition; but to improve upon that condition.
The truth of this issue is simple. The physical attributes of men and women are different. Their respective responses to all manner of stimuli are different. They have different reproductive tasks to fulfill. How do any of these differences grant a male the right to treat a female as inferior under any conceivable circumstance? The answer for any male sufficiently evolved to not pick fleas off his mate is in no way what so ever!
g
steve,
define aggressive? how come come i get along with women without being aggressive? i mean the comment ‘nice shoes’ is hardly aggressive, since women do exchange such comments with one another regularly. if anything i am the opposite of aggressive. i have strong opinions of this and that but i do not persue them aggressively and that is one of the points why women in gerneral trust me with issues. i communicate them and stubornly follow on, but aggressive is if anything off putting to women. at least that is my personal feeling. women are looking for respect and equal treatment, not aggression.
@ Steve, Jens,
In the rarest of occassions, I can totally empathise with your remarks about the ‘bitterness’ comments above. As in, people who feel they are entitled to being complimented. I see that alot in my own experiences, where people feel that you must compliment or even speak to them for whatever reasons! I am apply the all animals are equal rule to all, regardless of status in my work relatiobships. I also teach part time and insist on treating all my students as equals.
@ Steve,
by the way, the first part of my comment above is a joke…right?
Jens that means you are passive compared to people who are aggresive
@ Jens
Yeah, they are looking for respect and equal treatment until you give it to them, then they want a rugged “jerk”, and visa versa. It’s always the “grass is greener” with the majority of women my age (I’m 27 BTW).
I’ve noticed I get more women acting like a jerk, and if I start to act like “the nice guy” they start to go in the opposite direction. Go figure.
-Anthony, LA, CA
no i am not passive, nor am i passive aggressive.
i am cabale of interacting with poeple without aggression or without sitting in a corner saying nothing.
it’s called communicating and in interaction with managment i talk more than others, but i am not aggressive. i communicate my idea or point without aggression.
@ Jens,
I think that relationships are negotiated from person to person and in context. You do not have the same relationship with all people. In fact, I think if you set out to be ‘PC’ all the time you can get into alot of trouble in terms of attracting situations to yourself that force you to make these ‘difficult’ judgement calls!
In terms of people relationships in work spaces, I think we need to be practical – hang out with the people you like and share things in common with and who want to your ‘friend’ in the office. That means, if I say ‘nice shoes’, etct. then there is a context in which that is happening.
Surely, I would not be so obtuse as to ‘compliment’ people I either do not know or do not get along with – for whatever reasons!
@ Jens
I’m talking about something different, “getting” women. You are tlaking about just talking to coworkers. Pretend you were single for a moment, being aggressive with women works to your advantage, being nonaggressive (in the sense of not being very aggressive) will work against you. Women reward aggressive behavior, it has a higher success rate, hence why guys do it. Either that or these guys are crazy trying to same thing over and over and expecting different results. When I didn’t act as aggressively, I would invariably fail miserably with women. Acting aggressively gets better results. This is completely different than a married coworker talking about shoes with female coworkers. Though for some people, that shoe comment could be “offensive” if from the opposite sex, or I would imagine if a gay coworker complimented a non gay coworker, then that might be “offensive” to them as well.
If anything, when dating, women are not looking for respect and equal treatment, but rather aggression. Cannot tell you how many times I failed and my friends have failed by not being aggressive enough (some women literally want your to tear their clothes off within a certain amount of time of being in her apartment) and if not, she thinks you have anxiety, and thus care too much, thus aren’t a challenge becuase she knows she has you…
But I have confused the issue from workplace harassment and the issue of how dating is completely different.
tony,
very wired. i have excellent interaction with women without being a jerk, in fact much better ones than jerks do. might have to do with the fact that being 6’8″ and an outdoor person in itself already carries a certain rugedness without having to be a jerk. 😉
Okay, I’ll make two bold statements: Women are only human, and when a guy that they are attracted to makes a compliment they will by nature react differently than when a man they despise, or worse, fear, makes a compliment. Even when he just means it as such. Second, some women have lost the ability to recognize a compliment when they get one, and my gut feeling is that they are more common in the US than in Europe, where PC is still more of a nice idea than a way of live.
Lastly, I agree with Jens, while women also get harassed in Sciences, it’s less common because what really matters there is what’s between your ears and not between your legs… 😉
@ Jens,
I agree with you on the point about the need to respect women, however, I wonder if we have not strayed a little from the concpet of sexual harrassment here? Are we not at work to work? In other words, I find alot of these issues come into play where people seem to misunderstand their role in a professional context. As in all situations, treat people like how you want to be treated – women or men! I do not wish to be in any sexual or other types of compromising relationships with my colleagues, so I communicate that even while I am still respectful and, hopefully, productive. I do not believe that there are special rules that apply to dealing with women over and above men, whether at work or elsewhere.
@ Jens:
I’m sure that even if you got an obnoxious woman into your lab who deliberately misunderstands everything, the other girls would sort her out very quickly, that’s how group dynamics work.
@ Anthony
This is getting off topic, but yes, I can confirm what you say. If I treat women well, they lose interest, and the women I treated the worst were the ones craziest about me. I think that has to do with self esteem and how low it is in many women. If you don’t provide drama that the jerks, provide, there won’t be an emotional rollercoaster of drama, which keeps most women interested, as the lack of it, stability, from a nice guy, bores most women. But I think we should try to stay on target here, but the best advice I can give you, is to date multiple women at the same time, so all of your eggs wont be in one basket (and hence you won’t seem to be desperate to her) and you won’t develop the attachment that makes you want to be “nice” to her. If you simply don’t care, she will like you a lot more.
@ Jens
I have luck the “nice” route also, but its AMAZING the kinda attention when I act cocky, arrogant, and when I treat women with little respect (which I don’t do now). It truly is amazing.
-Anthony, LA, CA
steve,
i am not that old that i forgot when i was dating. i can tell you something i was reasonably successfull in dating the women, whom i wanted to date by being non aggressive. in fact it go me into some situations where i ended up discussing femal problems in a group of women and i was the only guy. in way it was strange and in a way it was rewarding, since they trusted me with problems and issues that were very personal. i learned a lot from that on how women think and feel. something that actually help me in interacting with women and meet/date women without having to pretend to be something different, ie testosterone fuel macho man.
@ Jens
Perhaps being 6’8 might have had something to do with it.
Hi gang ! ;-)… At home we’re going to break our fasting very shortly but I do feel very strongly about today’s on-air topic and that’s why I felt that I must have my say about it…
“It’s only sexual harrasment if you’re not attracted” !!!
Wow guys, such a very interesting phrase that gets directly to the point !!! Imagine with me guys that there’s a man that I do love dearly and do have a deep, but totally silent affection for, then one day my man comes and looks at me in a sick, deviant, and animalistic way, or says some really bad mannered or disrespectful comments to me, then I’d immediately press the “delete” button without any regret or hesitation…. My perfect match should be a true noble man who’s governed by his moral conscience, whose eyes do appreciate beauty, but are human eyes that look in a humane, classy, kind, and noble way, not in a sick, deviant, and animalistic way…
Unfortunately, due to the effects of global warming, it seems that the specie of “true noble gentlemen” is seriously facing the danger of extinction ! :-)… With my love… Yours forever, Lubna in Baghdad….
@ steve
Yes, I am getting off topic, so I guess women should just react responsibly to sexual harassment.
@ Jens
May I ask how old you are???
-Anthony, LA, CA
kathrin,
i think you are right. i actually include the girls in my lab in the hireing process, since they have to work with that person and let me tell you female intuition is something that one can count on. especially if all of them agree…..
Sexual harassment is the adult version of the little boys pulling a little girl’s hair, tripping her, trying to peek up her dress, or targeting her breasts or genital area when playing dodge ball or other games.
It should never be accepted. Unfortunately, only women who are very strong mentally are able to handle such attacks creatively and effectively. And they always risk being accused of being prudes or manhaters.
Canada
anthony,
early forties, but looking more like mid thirties. lucky genes, even though i have been living in the sunny southwest of the USA for nearly ten years, or maybe it’s the fact that i do look after myself a little. you know skin care and moisturizing creams with spf, very girly indeed 😉
steve,
did i not say that. height can be a disadvantage, think air planes, but also an advantage…….think top shelve in supermarket or……
I work in an a primarily male environment and have been complemented on my dresses or suits or hair. I have never been offended or felt like it was sexual in any way. I have also traveled quite a bit with the executives and gone out drinking. Never have I experienced sexual harassment by any of them. If anything they have been protective of other people bothering me. However when I worked in construction that was a completely different story.
Harrassment is like any form of vulgarity: you know it when you see it. The Corporate interaction rule is, “It’s harrassment if someone feels harrassed.” That may open a can of worms for those people who have the misfortune of working with someone with a thin skin, but there isn’t really a better definition of it either – at least not one that takes the problem seriously. And women are harrassed because of their sex, and it shouldn’t be tolerated. That being said, this wouldn’t be a sneaky way of keeping the press from giving Governor Palin a proper vetting, would it?
@ Jens
lol @ SPF. I’m Hispanic so never need that stuff. I just get darker, I never burn 🙂
I do think however, that even though there’s probably only a 15 year difference, young women now days are totally different, and like the cocky jerks more.
The 2 mid thirties women that I’ve recently dated weren’t as interested in me as a Jerk, but more in confidence, yet in that aspect they weren’t as bad. Maybe its just an age thing.
-Anthony, LA, CA
@ Vanessa,
I’ve worked construction, too. On behalf of decent construction workers everywhere, let me apologize for the jerks who brought shame on an otherwise honorable trade.
Ros Are men welcome to comment I hope so.To some extent women bring all this trouble to themselves and they have a nice mariah carey soundtrack to go with the scanty dressing. “Called touch ma body”How a woman should react when sexually harassed depends on how she was dressed in the first place if it was scanty, tone down on the rhetoric lady you asked for it.If it was decent get the culprit who harassed you lady dont back down.All in all the ladies should understand our hormones(men) are ravenous like wolves and the less they are triggered the better. So cover up ladies and men exercise self control.
anthony,
i am not sure if it is an age thing or the fact that society in general is getting rougher.
all i can say the women working for me a certainly everything but interessted in jerks. they actually commenting on men acting like jerks and how crap that is…….
jerks might get laid quicker, but will end-up playing only with themselves in the long run, since no woman wants to wake up next to an idiot every day for the rest of her life…..think about it and you know i am right.
I think it’s all about how people are taught simple fundamentals like respect.
If you respect other people you find it really difficult to harass them. Laws about things don’t always bring about the real change needed, but social stigma does.
james,
wolves are actually rather shy…………..they only get ravenouse when hungry and then they try to feed themselves rather than trying to get laid… just a thought.
do not discredit wolves, they are magnificent animals
Concent and Assent would Define the need for sex!
But what is sexual harassment? Is it free concent or Assent or use of force defilement or rape?
@ Jens
You would think that makes sense, but you underestimate how huge the self esteem problem is with women these days. I have a friend on the west coast that recently got dumped by his gf because he treated her well. She came from an abusive home, so sought out abusive guys. During their entire relationship, she was pining over some guy who was very cold and distant to her. She was in therapy for over a year about why he didn’t like her before meeting my friend. She missed that kind of abuse, and wants to return with it. Her sisters are all the same way. One of her sisters lives with an unemployed guy, his his mother’s trailer, AND he’s infected with herpes.. Women like these would never tolerate a guy who treats them well, because of daddy issues and low self esteem..
harrsament goes obth ways and women need to react in a stern and progressive manner so as to curb this thorn in the eye once and for all.
BRB
@ James Karuga,
How a woman dresses is not an excuse to harrass her. I can totally understand the need for decorum. However, I certainly do not agree that men are lead by their libido, especially in a context where there is no overt attempt at soliciting unwanted attention. People need to learn self control, not everyone who you like or even have an interest in will like you back. A work relationship warrants that we treat each other with that awareness, regardless of status. The idea that women want to be harrassed based on how they dress is really a myth. Being misguided and out of step with ‘good taste’ (whatever that means!) is a whole other matter. That does not mean that someone wants unnecessary and unwelcomed attention by those who see it as their God given authority to do so!
steve,
well you will always find extrems on both ends, but i fared realivly well by being a nice guy, who cares about the woman i was dating or mre importantly the one i am married to. she can drive me insane, but hell i know i do the same to her……
@ Raw
I disagree completely if it comes to just verbal harassment and being in public if women choose to dress a certain way. Of course any physical contact is an absolute no. But if you’re dressed in a bad midriff, completely showing off your cleavage, and wearing something that says “juicy” on your behind, then if someone that you don’t find attractive notices the way you are dressed, then you need to be adult enough to deal with the consequences of your own actions. Not everyone looks like Brad Pitt, so if you dress that way, basically walking around half naked, expecting only guys who look like Brad Pitt to notice you, then you are seriously delusional.
james,
a woman could be naked i would not harress her. that is one point where i would not say “nice boobs”, maybe “nicely painted toe nails” ;)……
heck dressing scantly is no reason OR EXCUSE to harrass somebody.
@ mboro,
Could you elaborate some more on that point about ‘both ways’? I find the gender bias here in terms of men so overwhelming, it seems hardly likely that anyone agrees that women can also sexually oppress men in work places with their power; that is, if they are more senior, etc.
Steve’s point above in relation to the issue of the sense of entitlement that some people feel warrants them to being complimented can make that whole situation even more problematic; that is, where a women with more power in a work situation feels that it is a man’s right to compliment, regardless of whether they are even friendly with and towards each other.
@ Steve,
While your point is certainly valid, in parts, it really only applies in a context where the aim of dressing is determined to be ‘getting a compliment, worse yet from either Brad Pitt or his look alike. I think some people are just genuinely misguided and do not seem to understand the need for adjusting to fit into their office culture. That can be easily overcome by HR issuing instructions on appropriate dress for a work context, as well as training staff in cases where this awareness seems lacking!
Regarding treating with unwanted attention in an adult manner, whatever that means, suggests that people, specifically women, are not allowed to dress in a manner that they feel represents a sense of their own self control, etc. How I dress is a function of comfort as well as a desire to ‘fit in’ to certain contexts. With the culture of nakedness that operates in many Western societies, it is understandable, though perhaps not wise in all instances, to dress in revealing ways. That is the style. All of us have to adjust, accordingly, in my view.
@ Steve,
I agree – with the following proviso: looking is fine. Ogling, not so much. Verbal commentary on how she looks (i.e. “Hubba, hubba,” etc.) is harassment.
@ Nelsoni
What exactly would you propose we cut off of women to stop the “demand”? Before you decide, I’d also like to point out that women come in many shapes and sizes, the “ones” with small breast or bottoms also get harassed. I find it hard to believe that there are women out there who have not been harassed.
@ Steve
Women rarely ever welcomed or appreciate aggressive men in the work place. We may occasionally laugh off dumb innuendos to defuse the situation. Women are more attracted to men who respect them and show manners. It should go without saying, men should never ask women who work for them out, it’s sleazy!
@ Anthony
These woman who respond to you more as a “rugged jerk”? Are they in a jungle? Or perhaps you are more keen on the aggressive attention and, therefore, think woman want you more? Would you prefer a woman to “throw down” in the middle of the conference room, because you offer her a pen when hers stops working?
@ Jessica
It’s pretty common for coworkers to date, though not in the same area. People in different divisions, etc. It’s notorious in law firms for paralegals to date lawyers, etc… Respect and manners perhaps in the office, but outside of it? That’s a recipe for striking out with most women. Experience speaks louder than words.
@ Jens:
6’8”?! You must have eaten Wheaties like it was your job!!
@ Jack
But it’s very common for guys to make compliments to complete strangers based upon how they look. You said it’s harassment. But that’s basically how pickup lines are. For example, you see a girl in a bookstore, you notice her glasses or something, use that by saying “those are some great glasses, where did you get those?” as a “ploy” to get her talking, then steer the subject to something fun, then try to get her number. Are you saying that is inherently harassment? I’m sure if she finds you attractive, she won’t think it’s harassment, but if she finds you unnattractive, she will find it to be harassment.
@ Jessica in NYC,
Very funny post! Totally agree!
I think that the issue is not whether people are attracted to each other at work and who is aggressive or passive, but more what constitues harrassment under these circumstances? If, in the most ideal situations, people commit to acting professionally towards each other I think this issue of sexual harrassment, etc., would be lessened. HR has to take a strong lead in this area, not by presuming that people will behave themselves and show manners, but insisting on cultivating a work culture that makes clear what is accepted and what isn’t. Of course, that is the ideal situation, presuming there is even an HR department to do this.
I think we should do a test, have 6’8 Jens compliment a woman on her smile, and then have a 5’5 guy compliment a woman on her smile, and see which guy the woman thought was harassing her?
I’m sure if she finds you attractive, she won’t think it’s harassment, but if she finds you unnattractive, she will find it to be harassment.
EXACTLY, and the problem with this is that men who are inadvertantly sexually harassing women in this situation don’t even know they are doing it, or intend to. The ball is in the womans court for this one. So maybe the ugly men should just not be allowed to compliment or initiate talk with women.
We could do licensing for men so that they may compliment or initiate talk with women. But only if the men are ‘hotties’.
Please please please don’t get my comment mixed in with those rude or crass men who are intentionally harassing women.
I’m not surprised that all the juvenile, brutish responses are from American men. This culture fosters immaturity and insensitivity in men.
That aside, my own experience in being sexually harassed was with a boss who took me out to lunch for my birthday and then tried to force himself on me in his truck. I was a secretary, and I told the female office manager what happened. She didn’t want to get involved, and intentionally withheld her opinion on what happened. So I ended up quitting because she, the sole HR-type person, did nothing.
Harassment impacts more than the victim. It creates a terroristic atmosphere, full of insensitive jerks. Way to go, America!
Everyone here is splitting hairs on what is harrassment and what is not.
For the most part in India, when a girl /woman claims she is harassed, I tend to believe them because the very act of complaining only comes after the dam of patience has broken. This is a step of helplessness in itself, and 99% of the time it is a genuine thing.
Now to talk about dealing with people who commit these acts of sexual harassment. The person in question is usually someone who needs to be made to understand the consequences of such behaviour.
In India for example, if a woman raises an alarm after being molested in public, people around will immediately come over. A sound thrashing is usually the outcome, but police action is slow and cumbersome. However the threat of public humiliation is enough deterrent most of the time.
@ Heather
Way to generalize.
Why did you go to lunch with a boss on your birthdya, especially alone? How could you coworker know what happened if she wasn’t there? All she could do is retell what you told her.
@ Steve,
Aren’t we getting a little carried away with the defintion of ‘harrassment’ regarding your point about the woman in the bookstore and your ‘ploy’ in relation to commenting on her glasses to get her talking? Attraction in those situations, I find, is often mutual, at the very least not a one way affair. Part of what, I think, would push someone to talk to a complete stranger yet alone ask for their number would include ‘the vibe'(attraction). I cannot imagine that that would constitute harrassment, would it? Forcing yourself onto someone else is a completely different matter. That it is both unsolicited and goes beyond a simple (?) question of sex, no?
I have a friend that is a fire fighter and she was sexually harrassed by her captain. She is a very beautiful girl with long blonde hair, blue eyes and an amazing body. He wanted to take her out on a date and she declined. From there on out he was hard on her as well as the other men in her station. She started to bring a law suit against the fire department but feared that she would not be able to get another job fire fighting and so she dropped it. She was concerned about keeping her job and had I been in her position I would have probably done the same!
I agree that a lot of times others don’t want to get involved and that the harassment is still seen as a “private” issue. That’s why it’s great for programs like this to cover these topics and bring attention to important issues like sexual harassment and street harassment that a lot of times go unaddressed.
Donnmarie in Switzerland emails:
I think the question of sexual harassment needs to be divided into two sections, modern societies and traditional ones. In many of the latter, sexual harassment, or its equivalent, is part of the culture and one can only hope that those cultures will abandon the practice in our increasingly globalized world.
I myself am past the age where I have to worry about sexual harassment, but my 19 year old daughter is working on her black belt in Aikido. If a simple word such as “no” or “stop” doesn’t work, she can throw a grown man across the room. Good for her!
P.S. A woman should be able to walk down the street stark naked. It’s up to the men to control themselves, not the the women to have to hide themselves to avoid being harassed!
@ Vanessa
if you were a man, and you described your friend as having an “amazing body” as you said, would that not be sexual harassment (presuming your friend wasn’t attracted to you?). The very things men get accused of sexual harassment of, you did yourself!
What example of things did she said they did after she declined the captain? And if it was truly so bad, why is she still there? She would be forbidden from firefighting all over the country because of quitting that one job? Doesn’t seem realistic to me.
Other men were difficult to her because she declined dating the captain? If anything, you would think they would be happy about it. Something sounds a bit fishy about that story.
I think woman are funny when they wear little skirts, revealing shirts, and tight “juicy” pants, yet they say they don’t want to be looked at in a sexual way. If they have the right to look like a tramp, then I have the right to refer to them and act like they are tramps. Thats just fair.
-Anthony, LA, CA
@ Donmarie
If a woman can walk down the street naked, she should be free from unwanted physical contact, but not from being stared at or comments being made. If you want attention, don’t be shocked when you get it. It’s part of acting like a grownup. Actions have consequences. If you are basically naked, you’re going to get male attention.
Women should report cases of sexual harrassment, where possible and in others, take as much security precautions as are feasible under specific circumstance. If at work, discuss the matter with HR – however, experience tells me that they are usually impotent and unable/ unwilling to do much in the vein of assisting with some of these issues. Walk around with Mace! LOL! And take self defense classes. Don’t sleep with the boss and fellow co-workers unless you are prepared for all the unpleasantness that goes with that, as it often does.
And, because men can also be sexually harrassed, my question is: how are men expected to react to these unwanted advances?
Sexual harassment deprives women of equality in education, the workplace, and society at large. To tell women to shrug it off or to claim that the law can do nothing is to endorse male supremacy.
@ Katharina in Ghent
Well said! I have learned to laugh some of it off, but sometimes Human Resources needs to be involved.
@ Luz Ma
That is awful. Once in a similar environment as you, I was in a political campaign office and a union leader came in who had been drinking with other campaign donors and decided to put his hands on my shoulders then moved them all the way down my back. I was wearing jeans and a baggy t-shirt. The worst part was this happened in front of the “politician” (male), the chief-of-staff (woman) and campaign director (woman). The chief-of-staff has he was “just friendly” and the politician shrugged and said “What do you want me to do, he’s a donor”. I was very young and dumb then, given the situation again, I would react much differently today.
There is no real standard for individual discomfort when it comes to harassment. Arguing what is and what is not harassment is irrelevant. If people prefer aggressive then they will certainly find it soon enough and many people actively pursue it. For those who lament that respectful tactics tend fail, they should consider the people they are trying to attract. You get what you put out there and beyond that there are a whole lot of screwed up people looking to hurt others for the sheer pleasure of it, nothing a good riding crop or knee to the nether regions wouldn’t fix. If character and respect are not enough, move on, cause it won’t get better and probably will get worse…….
@ Anthony:
If they have the right to look like a tramp, then I have the right to refer to them and act like they are tramps.
OH MY GOSH! How shovanistic of you! Don’t you know, its their right to wear whatever they want and the world has to deal with it and not say a word… Even if it is trashy, unactractive, unprofessional, etc.
Ruth in Cleveland, Ohio emails:
I’m always amazed that men want to blame sexual harassment on the way women dress, saying that the men wouldn’t annoy women if they dressed differently. Are rich people responsible for people stealing from them because their property is so attractive? Wealthy people also have something that other people want.
Charissa in Portland, Oregon, USA emails:
The argument that women who dress in a provocative way are “asking” for sexual harassment is bogus. Firstly, sexual attraction is subjective; how are females supposed to read the minds of all men to know what is provocative? Secondly, I doubt anyone would make the argument that a well-dressed person walking down the street was “asking” to be robbed just because they were wearing well made, expensive clothing. Why are women any more responsible?
Men are responsible for their own actions. If they find a woman attractive, then they need to either restrain themselves or walk away.
Sexual harassment @ clubs:
Go tell the bouncer, that is what they are there for. A male bouncer will always love to kick out a random guy for a female patron. It makes them look tough and ‘hero-ish’.
NOT ANIMALS?
There is a lot of talk on this blog about a sort of animal behaviour among some humans (mostly men). Along the lines of—if they appear sexual and openly flirtatious they are less developed humans. I often feel like this about others and I personally never display these behaviours because they seem tacky! But is there any inherent validity in this? Or is the curbing of noticeable flirtations a form of repression? Many people from less developed countries sometimes are more willing to be flirtatious in a literal sense—are these people savages (as many have made the claim) or are they closer to the reality of what an uninhibited human is like?
P.S. I don’t want to confuse the above with harassment—which is indeed a different bird.
@ Brett
That’s funny, I’m shocked clubs don’t have policies banning men shorter than 5’9 from entering, as their presence might sexually harass women who want guys to be 6’3+. Better prevent them from entering than risk sexually harassing women by looking at them.
@ Anthony,
I am not so sure it is that they do not want to be looked at ‘in a sexual way’ as per your comments above, as it is that, that ‘look’ can be offensive when taken too far. The question, of course, is what is ‘too far’? Given that not all women can walk around in flowing robes in all instances, the question is a legitimate one. After all, even people who wear long flowing robes and veils, etc. are sexually harrassed, even raped. This happens all the times and is not a function of dress, necessarily, though that certainly helps the process along, I am sure. Harrassment is just that, unwanted, unpleasant and should be punished under the law.
@ Brett
Yes, they can wear whatever they want even if they look trashy, and unactractive, but if they have the freedom to dress like that, then I have the freedom to think and say whatever I say. Just like if someone is wearing a shirt that says “I hate asians and blacks” they have the right to wear that, but I have the right to comment and think badley of them. Would you say the same thing for the second scenario???
-Anthony, LA, CA
Steve ~
The point I was trying to make is that she gets a lot of attention from men because of her looks. She is someone that carries herself very well, dresses conservatively and is not flirtatious. That fact that these men kept harassing her was because she didn’t want their attention; she wanted to do her job but feared losing it.
Some countries (e.g. India and Mexico) have very strict laws protecting women from abuse from men. Apart from cases of assault I think women should get a thicker skin and stop making a legal issue out of cases of social etiquette.
One suggestion for women to protect themselves from harassment. hold some kind of self defense device, like pepper spray, and use it when someone approaches you. That should teach them a good lesson.
@ Anthony:
My response was sarcastic, I was somewhat agreeing with you. 🙂 And yes I would find the second scenario true too.
@ Clubs
You’re at a club!!! If you don’t like it, don’t go!!!
I think its funny when married women get all dressed up to party at a club/bar with her single friends, then get upset when some guy is trying to pick up on her.
@ Brett
Ohhh, gotcha.
-Anthony, LA, CA
Women should always defend themselves from sexual harassment! This is not acceptable! It does not matter how she is dressed men are not entitled to do this to women!!! Are men animals that cannot control themselves? I think NOT! Therefore they have to respect women. At times women can confront the man and she should do this if she feels her safety is not threatened. Other times she should take him to court if she has the ability to do so.
The female guests are saying that women should be able to dress any way they want, which I agree with. But that doesn’t make them free from being looked at or comments being made by guys. Actions have consequences, and if you dress in a way that exposes a lot of skin, then expect to be looked at by men. This doesn’t excuse any kind of assult.
United States
I think it’s absolutely ridiculous that a anyone should even have to worry about being harassed. Don’t people, men and women, have enough self control to keep their hands off? I think a slap is completely justified, or even something a little harsher.
In response to Anthony’s posting: There is a huge difference between hitting on a girl and sexually harassing her.
@ Anthony
Upset? Please, they go to clubs for attention. Men go to clubs to get women. I suppose getting attention from the wrong guy can be upsetting. But this is my argument about clubs, they are purely for women about getting attention, and for men, to get women. Why do women dress up? If you think about it, why would woman go to a club for anything other than attention? Music? Dancing? They have music at home, and you can dance at home. The real reason is the desire to be seen by lots of people, dancing around… It’s an attention thing.
@ Steve
Yes, of course it’s common and a given people in the work place will date, but that was not what I was referring to, was it? Male or female should never ask their subordinates out. Dating in huge companies should not be baned, but people dating their subordinates is always frowned upon if not strictly prohibited. Yes, respect and manners should always be mandatory in the office and outside of it what ever floats either one of your boats. Women who want you to be more aggressive will let you know. When a women walks away or says no, it doesn’t mean dial-it-up a notch and act like a “rugged jerk”.
Karen in Oregon emails:
I have been sexually harrased since I was 5 years old. What on earth did I do to deserve at age 5?
I was raped at age 8, what did I do to deserve that? I am now 64 years old. I have finally found a way not to be harassed, I stopped dying my hair, and I quit wearing a bra. I’m also 100 lbs overweight. Peace at last, but at what price? Karen in Oregon
Pascal, give me a break! Do nothing.
@ Jessica
But subordinates date higher ups all the time. There are lots of “shoulds” in the world, but like those other shoulds, it doesn’t happen, and higher ups date subordinates all the time.
I’ve never heard of a woman telling a guy to be more aggressive, as he has lost his chance, and she’ll keep on looking for guys that dont need to be told to be more aggressive.
I think women often dress in order to receive attention from men. However, this desire for attention is not an invitation for men to touch or speak to a woman inappropriately. Men take it too far and use the woman’s dress as an accuse for their behavior.
I am a Human Resources professional in California. Sexual harassment can go both ways. The offender can be of either gender. There is no justification for sexual harassment. I have found the best way to deal with sexual harassment in the workplace is to directly inform the harasser that it is not acceptable behavior and if it the behavior occurs again that they will move it along to superiors. Outside the workplace I have found that if you are confident and hold yourself with respect then you are treated with respect. If someone does touch you without your consent then that is assult and is a criminal offense and should be treated as such.
I’m thinking pepper spray.
The whole discussion is rather pointless… Women are NOT AT FAULT… they are really victims of the general malaise affecting the society…
I was born in a period where we were taught by our elders and betters that women were our equals and partners – though physically weak. I remember reacting rather violently and angrily seeing a woman being pushed around by some males in the street at night way back in my youth…
In my college days the girls in our class would have no hesitation being held back wherever we end up at any time of the day or night – as long a at least one of her male class mates was around knowing that any attempt at harassing her would be resisted by the male members of the party…
But now I have daughters at the university and I have it on good authority from them that the boys of their class are more trouble that the strangers??
What has happened to the male of the species???? Have they all lost their sense of fair play and to use an old fashioned word “Chivalry?”
Baiju
India
@ Susie
“However, this desire for attention is not an invitation for men to touch or speak to a woman inappropriately. Men take it too far and use the woman’s dress as an accuse for their behavior.”
The problem is that “appropriateness” is so subjective. If you saw a woman wearing a low cut t-shirt that said “i put out” on it, dress in low rise jeans, an dyou went up to her and made some comment about her boobs, do you think that’s inappropriate based on how she was dressed? Maybe she would love that comment, maybe not, but her clothes gave out a message. Believe me, I’m not making this stuff up, I cannot believe the shirts I have seen women wearing before.
You should be free from unwanted physical contact, but not free from unwanted attention and words in public. It’s a free society, and with that comes responsibility for how you dress. If you wear a shirt saying “proud to be a slut” (which I’ve seen) don’t be shocked if men come up to you.
@ Baiju Philipose
Right on.
@ Steve,
Another challenge in the art of the pickup. There’s a difference between “nice glasses,” even “nice dress” and “nice butt.” Sneaking a glimpse of cleavage when she her head’s turned qualifies as “looking,” which is fine. Staring at her chest to the point that she gets up and leaves the room, not so much. Making advances is fine, but you have to show some class. Again, using your example of meeting an attractive woman in a bookstore, “nice glasses” is fine, but I would think flattering her choice of book – and hence showing interest in something other than the physical – would be more effective and definitely less risky. I’ll grant you that the phenomenon of sexual harassment complicates things for men when it comes to the auld “mating dance,” but it’s also a good thing. As a gender, we used to objectify women. Now, we’re expected to show them respect, and I’m okay with that. I see it as win-win, since a man has to show some class to get a date with a girl he’s attracted to and women have to recognize that the “men are pigs” dictum has exceptions.
Luke from New York emails:
What about the men who get sexually harassed? I am 27 and the only male who works in an office with 20 woman. I have been pinched, had my backside slapped, and had comments made towards me that would be a closed case in any court! I mean it gets really bad! But to be honest with you, it doesn’t bother me too much. It is not that big of a deal to me. It is kind of faltering. But if the same kind of action were to happen to a woman, then forget it, that man would be in jail. I tend to think that it might be more of a case of “revenge” on men for how woman have been treated for years. At least here in the States. I can not speak for the rest of the world. I think woman like the attention they get from men, which is why they dress the way they do. then exert their power when they feel they can. If a man were to complain about such actions, he would be looked at as strange for not accepting the woman’s approach.
As in a previous WHYS discussion on rape – no one in this debate has made the point that SOME men do interpret the way women dress as a gauge of whether or not that woman is open to sexual advances.
@ Baiju Philipose
Chivalry is dead in America, although I’m actually trying to bring it back myself (but only for those who deserve it).
-Anthony, LA, CA
@ Steve:
They have music at home, and you can dance at home. The real reason is the desire to be seen by lots of people, dancing around… It’s an attention thing.
Also they could get a membership at Victory Lady Fitness, then dance all they want in the aerobics room with only other women…
Denise from San Francisco emails:
It is a little tiring that people are still trying to blame the victim for their victimization. It has already been established that sexual predators are not after sexual release, but power. How come women all over the world can go to nude beaches and not be abused? How come women in their 70s and 80s are being raped and even babies… Where the provocation there?
I liked the testimony from the woman who responds to sexual harassment by photographing the perpetrators. There needs to be a strong way to condemn this practice as it’s happening but without increasing the risk of further violence to the victim.
But I also wonder what would happen if women took drastic action and began to carry weapons? If women responded to groping by pulling out knives and maybe even delivering non-fatal stabbings perhaps word would quickly get around that women were no longer tolerating harassment. But I doubt women have the legal protection to commit drastic self-defense actions in these countries where harassment is most prevalent.
Giselle
The Netherlands
I just started listening a few minutes ago, when the conversation was around the way some women dress, as if “they were asking for it” by the clothes they wore. That is pure B.S.! That king of thinking is blaming the victim, pre and simple. It is 3/4 way through 2008! I truly wonder if men have not evolved sufficiently to curb their sexual urges? I am a male and find ANY type of sexual harassment disgusting and have ceased knowing former guys who I though to be friends with because of their attitudes toward women.
Im with Anthony on chivalry.
And Jessica? In Richmond?! Richmond is my city! I rep Richmond on WHYS lol.
Women should be able to dress however they want. Men don’t have to school how they dress to avoid harrassment, so why should we? This is a ridiculous and sexist approach which needs to be weeded out. If women can control their sexual drive so can men. They should respect women not belittle them in this way. Just because a women is in a club doesn’t mean she wants to be asulted. She wants to enjoy herself without having to worry about being attacked by the men around her.
As to a reaction, it definately depends upon the situation. It can be dangerous for a woman to physically reprimand a man. The problem should be verbally addressed sternly, immediately, and legally if necessary.
Amy, UK
If I dress and look like a gang bangger I will get messed with by gang members. If I dress and look like a stoner, someone will prob ask me for, and try to sell me pot. If I dress and look like a business person (suit and tie), people will prob treat me with more respect. So is it so hard to understand if you dress like a tramp you might get treated like one???
-Anthony, LA, CA
What disgusts me is when women call out sexual harassment when it’s an unattractive man giving her attention. If the man is good-looking, women tend to welcome the comments.
Katie – Portland, Oregon, U.S.A.
Why is chivalry? Maybe because it lessens your chances of getting a woman? I always opened car doors for my exes, held doors open, paid for meals, etc, and they seemed to prefer thugs. My friend’s ex girlfriend prefered being abused to being treated well. Given this is pretty much the norm, chivalry is probably dying out via observing. Treat a woman badly, she likes you. Treat her well, you lose out.
@ Steve
It feel like we’re getting into what a particular woman is attacked to and what a man wants. This is not what I am referring to. The topic in discussion is harassment and how women react to it. Even if a women is “attracted” to a man, harassment is not welcomed. Men are responsible for their actions and when women say no, it should be respected. In the office, if the person in question is your boss it makes the situation much harder, because the lines of professionalism have been distorted.
Joan in Oregon emails:
Something as simple as going through security in an airport, the man checking my driver’s license noticed that my hair is shorter than what was on my picture. He commented that “men like women more in long hair”. I’m demeaned whether I am unattractive to men or whether I dress in a manner in which to receive positive attention from a man. I should have spoken up, but was surprised and mute.
@ Anthony / Riddler:
So true, yet so not PC haha.
This seems to be turning into a similar debate as the last rape topic on who is to blame, and use of discretion.
@ Luke
Yeah, my old manager used to offer me sex all the time in the “gun room”. I declined, yet I didn’t freak out or think it would effect much. Another manager used to call the girls “sweetheart” and got written up.
-Anthony, LA, CA
everyone has the right to dress whether it’s a woman or a man. i totally refuse the exsuses men make and think they were attracted with the type of dress a woman wears. rather men should control the movement of their eyes as part of their ethics.
Josimar in Kingston, Jamaica emails:
I don’t believe that sexual harassment is contextualised, because complimenting a woman’s physique or expressing a sexual attraction to a woman (whether in public or private) does not constitute sexual harassment. Ask Deborah which Jamaica she lives in, because unless a man demands sexual intercourse from a woman there is definitely not sexual harassment.
You should have asked “How should someone react to sexual harassment?”
It is not only a problem for the female gender.
You have to include male experiences of sexual harassment as victims and offenders so that the debate is more balanced,even though the vast majority of incidences are male on female.
What should women do ,well
I have seen a woman on a bus in India push a man,who had put his arm around her shoulder then get the busdriver to stop the bus,and in another incidence a women sitting infront of me quietly lecture a young man about his misbehaviour towards her.
Helen Salka emails:
It sounds like the term”sexual harassment”is being misapplied.And that the men,or some of them,are just making passes at women they might want to meet.
And use nonverbal communication.Women have the choice to ignore it or move away or stay put.It sounds like alot of it is guys,in their often awkward-puppy guy way,are just doing what guys do.And for some reason,in this conversation,the attitude and response is overly hostile and anti-social.Or am I misreading the gist of the situation and responses?
Te difference is that I would welcome sexual harassment.
@ Jessica
“Even if a women is “attracted” to a man, harassment is not welcomed.”
As I stated several times, females have told me “it’s not sexual harassment if you are attracted”. I had a female coworker tell this to me, and we’ll say I got to know her biblically after I had concerned about that with a coworker.
Please watch the video link I provided. Even though it’s a joke SNL skit, it’s just accurate. That’s what makes it so funny. Just now another female commentor stated the same thing, backing up my point.
What a woman wears has nothing to do with the majority of harassment. I spent 6 months in India and was physically harassed daily, I remember counting 23 occasions on one single shopping trip out in Bangalore. Conscious of the culture I was often more covered than an average Indian woman wearing a sari, and always wore clothes that hid my body shape.
I found when I went out wearing inappropriate dress it happened less. The reason for this was when inappropriately dresses more eyes were on me and therefore it wasn’t as easy for men to get away with it.
The main perpetrators were middle aged Muslim men, but I’ve never had a problem in the 4 Muslim countries I’ve visited.
After talking to an elderly Indian woman after she had dragged a man out of the public toilet he had followed me into, she advised me the only way to deal with it was embarrass them. I then took to slapping and/or shouting loudly whenever it happened and it stopped them and other potential harassers in their tracks.
Men of that mindset will do what they think they can get away with, it’s as simple as that!
Anthony you are being both ridiculous and incredibly shallow! This is a problem for society as a whole . To use an old fashioned statement: don’t judge a book by its cover! Does a women deserved to be leered at for wearing jeans and a long top? because thats what happens!
Amy, UK
Its a matter of basic human decency. No one should do anything that makes other people uncomfortable. if a man’s behavior makes a woman uncomfortable(or vice versa), then they are being disrespectful. How could someone even try to justify doing something to someone that makes them feel bad? No matter what they are wearing.
John Niemer in Portland, Oregon emails:
This is absurd.
I don’t care if a woman walks down the street naked. This does not give anyone, man or woman to impose his or her will or force her to do anything to her. That is a complete violation.
If a man walks down the street with a tank top and big muscles does that mean he is inviting someone to fight him? I have a gun, I should just shoot him! He was asking for it!
I worked in a pizzeria when I was fifteen and a manager would constantly make lude comments. That was the first time I was sexually harassed and I was wearing jeans and a baggy T-shirt. What am I supposed to wear? A poncho?
Point 1) No one has the right to harass anyone. Period.
Point 2) Why is it that a woman can dress like a tramp and nobody is supposed to care or look? You don’t see men showing off nearly as much as women do? I just find it very odd this double standard.
Adrian in Derby, England emails:
I’m a man – I think it’s up to women what they wear.
If women dress to look attractive it doesn’t mean they’re trying to attract that particular person. Ask one of these guys who says they’re provoked by certain dress sense – if they were walking down the street eating a pizza, how would they feel if a hungry person attacked them and justified it by saying it was provocation for them to be eating in public?
TO ALL THE ROBIN-HOODS!
Gee, just because people look wealthy doesn’t mean you get to rob them! Even if someone looks like a slag—it doesn’t mean you have the moral authority to respond with harassment. If we follow this logic it would be okay to rape every stripper because they ask for it.
Under no circumstances should I ever make an advance that is unwanted, however I have told women who present themselves well how much I appreciate the fact that they have dressed and groomed them selves well. Those who present poorly, or in a provocative manner need to be left alone. They is never a time when fashion should displace good taste.
@ Jonelle-Los Angeles, Pangolin-California,
Right on!
This is a topic I feel very passionately about. I wrote my master’s thesis on it at a university in the US in Washington, DC and am currently working on a book proposal on the topic. To learn more visit http://www.stopstreetharassment.com To answer the questions:
If you’re a woman, have you been harassed?
YES! I’ve been harassed more times than I can count – including when I studied abroad in the UK and when traveling to other countries like Belgium where I was stalked. Mostly I experience being whistled and honked at from passing cars while running, but some of the more harmful case include being: groped on the street outside a party at college, chased while I was running at a park by myself at dusk, told I have “nice tits” by a group of men as I passed by on the street, and hearing sexually explicit comments that I don’t want to repeat. I am 25 years old and have been harassed for about 12 years. For some reason examples, in the last two weeks I have been harassed four times – once while walking to work, two times at two different gas stations, and a fourth time while out for a run by my neighborhood.
What happened and how did you react?
Most of the time the harassment has happened too quickly for me to respond – the person is gone by the time I can react. I am not good at confrontations and so I usually only glare at the person and then the rest of the day I wish I had done something else. The more horrific experiences like being stalked, chased, and groped left me crying and angry once I was safely at home. The following are suggested strategies for dealing with street harassment based on my research which I try to practice now as well as preach: http://www.stopstreetharassment.com/strategies/index.htm
Should men be dealt with by strict laws?
I’ve found that the definition of harassment and perception of it is so varied that it would be hard to create a law that everyone could agree on. Plus, it would be hard to prosecute someone who yells “nice ass” from a car speeding by or someone who grabs your breast as he disappears into a crowded street. I would love to think we could have laws to stop street harassment, but I think in most cases it would be difficult to enforce. What I think is that the laws that do exist to prosecute people who assault others should be taken seriously by police and if someone reports being groped on the subway, the police should respond professionally, etc.
Is an immediate response the best idea? Or is nothing sometimes the thing to do?
It’s very hard to assess in an instant what the best response is – will saying “stop harassing me” cause the person to become angry and physically attack you or will it shame them and make them apologize? Either response could happen but you never know which one. Women have to do what makes them feel the most safe, which in many cases will be ignoring the person and doing nothing. Thus, I think that men really need to be educated from a young age about not harassing women in public. The media reinforces the idea that women like to be whistled at on the street and I think that needs to stop too.
And to all of you, how do you define harassment?
For me, anyone who interrupts my personal space to objectify me or make me feel uncomfortable or threatened is harassing me. From a feminist perspective, many comments and things like groping and stalking on the street seems to be men objectifying women and disrespecting them.
Are there some circumstances where it’s understandable that men communicate their attraction to a woman they see in public?
Men can say hello to a woman just as they would to a man and if she responds favorable, then try to start a conversation. If she says hello back abruptly or without eye contact or without smiling or moves away quickly, he should leave her alone!! Just because one is attracted to another doesn’t mean they have to exclaim, you’re beautiful or nice ass or actually grab the woman to show their attraction. Showing respect for another person’s personal history, background, and their current agenda (on the way to work, school, etc) is essential and can be done simply by saying hello, how are you. most people don’t say that to strangers, so it would almost be implied that they must have some interest in you.
If women dress or behave in certain ways, should they expect men to want to touch them?
NO, NEVER. Women should be allowed to wear what they want without the fear of being touched or assaulted. If men cannot keep their disrespectful comments or hands to themselves, then they should not be allowed in public.
Baiju in India emails:
The whole discussion is rather pointless… Women are NOT AT FAULT… they are really victims of the general malaise affecting the society…
I was born in a period where we were taught by our elders and betters that women were our equals and partners – though physically weak. I remember reacting rather violently and angrily seeing a woman being pushed around by some males in the street at night way back in my youth…
In my college days the girls in our class would have no hesitation being held back wherever we end up at any time of the day or night – as long at least as one of her male class mates was around knowing that any attempt at harassing her would be resisted by the male members of the party…
But now I have daughters at the university and I have it on good authority from them that the boys of their class are more trouble that the strangers??
What has happened to the male of the species???? Have they all lost their sense of fair play and to use an old fashioned word “Chivalry?”
Sexual harassment will not stop just as armed robbery will not stop. we know that police advices that we should avoid making ourselves targets for armed robbery, likewise women should not make themselves a target for sexual harassment by the way they dress. Its not about right, but about self protection!
@ Amy
No, if she is dressed in a respectible manner, then I think it’s wrong to be treated and called a tramp, but if it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, and smells like a duck, it must be a duck.
If I wear a t-shirt in Iran saying “Mohammad was a fraud” I will expect something to happen, just as women who dress trampy should understand.
-Anthony, LA, CA
Rick Alcorta emails:
It is very simple. If you dress like a slut you should expect to be treated like one. If it bothers you, put some clothes on. I dont think it’s right, but it’s life.
Fashion is no substitue for good taste.
I am blessed to be attractive/voluptuous and to get approached a lot by men. The way you dress does not deter men from approaching but it does change the nature of the advance. Men are emboldened by what they perceive as sexually provocative clothing. However, we as women send mixed messages that confuse men. Some giggle and appear receptive to things others find offensive. We have a responsibility to ourselves and other women to teach men how to treat us. Physical contact must be dealt with swiftly. Please do not ignor the behavior but make it clear prior to contact that it is unwelcomed and will not be taken lightly.
Women’s Rights Require Proper Legal Safeguards
TEHRAN – Nowhere more than in Iran are the rights of women trampled on and their pleas for help and assistance left unheeded.
The same impudence and disregard for international norms and moral values which led to the current chaos and tyranny in Iran, now ingore women’s rights in the work place and the home.
Abuse is so widespread and women’s rights are so neglected by prelates that rape, extortion and blackmail persist on a daily basis. It is simply unchecked. Worse still, the cultural divide makes it very difficult for international observers to confront the issue. The same is the case in Pakistan, Afghanistan and the entire Middle East.
Can the United Nations help? It has done nothing so far. Can the EU help? It certainly has the resources and will power but there are simply no local agencies to coordinate an extensive and all-embracing campaign to fight for women’s rights.
for those who defend mens right to harrass:
This show has been speaking very abstractly or from the perspective of a woman. I want to hear you speak from the point of view of the harrser. What goes through your mind when you grab or say something lewd to the woman? id like to hear you describe and defend this line of thinking.
@ Josimar,
What nonsense is this that you are talking: “unless a man’s demands sexual intercourse from a woman it is not harrassment”? Surely, you jest! Or, is it that sexual harrassment and sex are both one and the same? The conflation is a little ludicrous, no?
@ frank,
Right on!
The difference between harassment and appreciation is the goal. Harassers don’t care if they intimidate or humiliate their targets. Men who want to compliment a woman actually care about how their comments will be received.
People should consider whether the comment, whistle, etc., they’re thinking about offering is likely to garner a smile or a frown from the woman they’re talking to, and judge their actions accordingly.
I used to wait tables in a regular uniform and had comments from time to time over the years. I treated most of them like any other rude customer… smile, serve them dinner, collect the check.
But some men go too far. One, in particular, continued to ask for my phone number, smack my butt on my way by, ect. I told him that his behaviour was not appreciated and if he could not keep his hands to himself, he would be asked to leave. I don’t think he belonged in jail, but I did appreciate it when my supervisor escorted him from the restaurant.
Perhaps these boys who can’t control their libido move to Afghanistan. You’re not allowed to see women at all there.
Having been fired for sexual harassment before, I have seen the way sometimes how harassment is handled in companies. However, I believe that the push to get women equal and protected in the workplace has now caused problems within the workplace and caused an environment of fear amongst workers who are afraid of harassment suits being filed. A harassment firing follows you wherever you go, and no matter the circumstances, it leaves a stain, and mostly upon the men.
Innocuous compliments are now taken as harassment, and many women who believe they should be equal within the workplace are still very oversensitive to anything a man says, does and acts. I won’t argue that a glass ceiling does exist within parts of the United States, but some people within the workplace are so desperate to break it, whether it is real or not within their workplace, that they will cry wolf at first opportunity, knowing that what they say is given more weight.
While I believe the harassment in the workplace should be stopped when found, and there needs to be systems in place to make the workplace free from harassment, I believe it has gone too far at times.
Maureen Reynolds in Edinburgh emails:
I suffered sexual harassment for many years. it was heavily disguised, and it was not until I left, and asked this man why he often made a point publicly of disagreeing with me. He said it was because he fancied me. I had not even noticed that he fancied me, as I was too busy doing my job, and besides he was a married man. He made my work life difficult for many years, causing me huge stress and eventually illness. He was in a position of power and his behaviour meant other colleagues viewed me as either not being good at my job, or being disliked by him. they accepted his word over mine on important matters. He had influence over them. By the way, I was very good at my job.
We were both Trade Union Officers. Unbelievable!
I have seen a woman walk down the street naked she was carrying a pile of sticks on her head and wearing a single string around her waist and genitals ,I asked my driver what she was doing he said “Oh she is a tribal”,but it was in the middle of a town and there weren’t any tribal people within 500 miles,I did not see anyone harass her or pass any comments.
in the USA it’s not just the workplace, it is that guys feel free in any situation to bring it to sex. why i can’t enjoy biking, running, hiking or just walking around downtown without comments and glances that make me feel little and demeaned. i have never actually had this experience while i felt dressed ostentatiously-it’s only when i’m dressed in normal, covering clothing. i think to some extent men have been made to realize that they ought not to respond to women who are showing skin or shape, because they risk litigation. instead they target the everywoman to gratify their desires to feel loved or in power, granting the woman “validation”. i don’t feel validated by comments. i am a person too, and would rather enjoy your company, your thoughts, your equality, than your self-serving, self-empowering flattery that tells me only that i have served your appreciation for beauty.
Rory emails:
If a woman does not desire attention from men then she must not dress in a way that will attract that attention she does not desire.
I agree with the man from Venezuela who just spoke. It is acceptable to compliment a women, but never to touch or taken it beyond that.
Bishnu from Nepal emails:
Sexual harrassers are men with low self-esteem.
However, women should react in less extreme ways and feel pity rather than angry.
And I WOULD RATHER ASK A GIRL BEFORE TOUCHING HER AND I’M 99/100 SURE THAT SHE WON’T SAY NO!!
Dressing:
IN PUBLIC PLACES dresses should be less exposing. Exposing body is sex appeal so you should not be appealing it on the street.
Dress is definitely culturally motivated. Certainly, the !Kung San have no prohibition against women exposing their breasts. Likewise, men some tribal groups in Papua New Guinea sheath their penises in long, hollow sticks. But the idea that sex crimes never happen in these groups is a fallacy. Women are raped and harassed in these societies. The fact that they’re topless doesn’t mean they have to put up with it, nor does it prevent their brothers, fathers and husbands from taking blood revenge.
@ steve & Brett
Hey steve & Brett, ever been to “Hooters”? I knew this girl who would get upset because of some comments some customers would make. Any woman who thinks these things wouldn’t happen at a place like Hooters must have a mental problem!!!
-Anthony, LA, CA
Nadine in Dublin emails:
I think the problem is not what women wear it is how men perceive what women wear. What a man considers provocative dress is often woman dressing to make themselves feel good, attract attention, or to assert your femininity. Personal choice of clothing should NEVER result in harassment.
in my opinion the women responsible for all these things becouse sometimes they wear very attractive dress which make the men make bad deeds towards them so the behaviuor of women is the big problem which creates most of problems for women but we should be fair some of the gentlemen have very bad deeds towrds the women becouse ethier they are not married or some phisical problems anyway i think the women should behave politly towrds these deeds and should not try to create any problem to those who try to do any thing to them becouse it will be scandle for them in socity
Helen Morgan emails:
If society treated women as human beings, with respect, we wouldn’t need this discussion. Can you imagine having a discussion about the way men dress? Blaming men for wearing tight shirts or pants? No, of course not, because men would never be accused in such a ridiculous way. Women should be able to walk down the street naked without fear of harassment. Men need to learn to control themselves, and if they can’t control themselves, they should wear blinders.
In Zimbawe this is a very debtable issue. just about six ago harare was hit with a hysteria of discimination aginst women who wore shore skirts and any skimpy oufits that were not offensive in my opnion. Men need to ovecome the whole idea of the patriach society.
Sarah T. in Tigard, Oregon, USA emails:
I am a young attractive female and I can easily say that the way I dress has a tremendous impact on how EVERYONE treats me, including males. My dress is telling others how I want to be perceived. I think that most incidences of sexual harassment are wholly uninvited; however, there are many incidences based upon a woman not taking a clear stand in her dress and behavior on how she would like to be treated. I find it close-minded and irresponsible for women to expect men to take responsibility for their actions, while not taking any for her own.
When I was younger, I dressed provocatively in the workplace and I was constantly dismayed at why both male and female co-workers treated me with less than respectful behavior. One day it occurred to me that myself and everyone I know judge people based upon the visual and verbal cues we send out. I was sending out the message in my dress that I was “open for business” which my female co-workers did not appreciate and my male co-workers responded in kind. I started dressing more appropriate to the workplace and the responses from both sexes changed.
BOTH men and women should be expected to practice restraint and appropriate behavior in the workplace, taking in mind the differences in men and women. The impetus for change is not only on men, but in women as well.
@ Jack,
you are so on point above, re the comments in relation to the woman and her glasses. I especially love your intervention as it brings up the question of class and good taste. (I am not sure if my post made it onto the board, on this very matter!). I think we have all become so weirded out and defensive on this topic that there seems an implicit effort at justifying crassness, even threatening and potentially criminal behaviour. The fact is, as Amy points out, as well as others, women are harrassed.
I keep reminding that men are too, especially in work situations where they are felt to not have as much power as well as that sexual harrassment is not only through the heterosexual matrix, there are all other forms of sexual harrassment in a work context, as well as elsewhere. The discussion needs to be widened out.
@ Anthony:
Have pitty on her, she will scream she couldn’t get another waitressing job elsewhere.
Or that she can’t make the money she makes at hooters elsewhere…. Gee, I wonder why….
And yes, I have been, havent gone in the past 4 years though, they don’t seem to cater to vegetarians lol, though they have good beer specials as I recall.
this is Bishnu from Nepal.
Sexual harrassers are men with low self steem.
However, women should react in less extreme ways and feel pity rather than angry.
And I WOULD RATHER ASK A GIRL BEFORE TOUCHING HER AND I’M 99/100 SURE THAT SHE WON’T SAY NO!!
Dressing:
IN PUBLIC PLACES dresses should be less exposing. Exposing body is sex appeal so you should not be appealing it on the street.
If society treated women as human beings, with respect, we wouldn’t need this discussion. Can you imagine having a discussion about the way men dress? Blaming men for wearing tight shirts or pants? No, of course not, because men would never be accused in such a ridiculous way. Women should be able to walk down the street naked without fear of harassment. Men need to learn to control themselves, and if they can’t control themselves, they should wear blinders.
This women rights is going out of hand. Women have committed a lot of crime by using seduction destroyed souls and caused a great deal of wars. Seduction is rape. Women have caused a great deal of crime with out having to pay for it. The way a woman dresses depending on how she dresses is tis a form of communication and invitation. Women are not the victims they want us to believe.
Isaac
Rory emails:
If a woman dresses like a prostitute you can not blame a man for asking “how much”.
A woman can not understand a mans sexuality. If a woman dresses immodestly she will be seen as immodest and treated as such.
There is a difference between dressing nice and respectable in the work place and dressing sleazy and provocatively. It seems to me down south a woman here in the states can easily see where her fashion gets her. Sleazy dressed women end up in trailers with a medium waged, beer drinking womanizer of a husband and woman who know good style, yet remain conservative (in respect to clothing choices) end up in the nice, cookie-cutter suburbs. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.
@ Anthony
I haven’t been there many times. But it’s a restaurant, not a strip club, so she might have a point. if she was at a strip club and got offended by some comments there, then I would agree with you. Hooters is a place where you should be expected to bite your tongue. And though that was rude, I have a feeling the massive tips she probably gets from drunk men who want her probably more than makes up. She makes a LOT more money at hooters than she would at TGIF.
@ anthony
Hmmm, it depends what you mean by harrassment I suppose. I don’t think a women deserves to be touched by a man no matter how she dresses if she doesn’t want it, thats assult as well as harrassment. As for being whistled/leered/yelled at. Unfortunately it happens. But some women look gorgeous no matter what they wear. What do they do then? Go into hiding!
Amy, UK
Sean from New Hampshire, USA emails:
Here in the USA to say there are “standards” or company policies to gaurd against this is really ridiculous and window dressing. In particular when the harassment is women harassing men… a woman where I work harassed three men and never got fired (one of them was a VP!) “Reverse harassment” is just as rampant and to say it gets treated under an “equal” legal umbrella isn’t so. How does a woman harass three men and not get punished? Yet a man once and he does? Double standards – I think so.
I pose this question …Would you treat or want someone to treat your family member or loved on in a disrespectful manner? It goes back to the golden rule. Treat others how you would like to be treated.
Pepper spray! That sounds like a solution! 🙂
An anonymous emailer in Portmore writes:
I love the analogy of shooting the muscle-man in the tank-top. If a woman deserves to be harassed because of her dress, then we all have the right to assault anyone based on how they look.
I agree with Rory.
steve,
it all depends on how you complement a womans smile.
matter of fact or in a slimy way is very different.
Brett,
no i did not eat wheeties at all. swiss muesli must have done the trick and my viking genes…..
Isaac emails:
This women rights is going out of hand. Women have committed a lot of crime by using seduction, destroyed souls and caused a great deal of wars. Seduction is rape. Women have caused a great deal of crime without having to pay for it. The way a woman dresses depending on how she dresses is a form of communication and invitation. Women are not the victims they want us to believe.
Anthony ~
If you’re a stripper or work at an establishment like hooters you should expect sexual innuendo. How could one not when the entire point is showing their bodies for money!
@ Erik in the US
What exactly did you do to get fired on the grounds of sexual harassment? It sounds like you believe you were fired on bogus grounds; for someone “crying wolf”. How do you know it wasn’t harassment, legally?
@ Amy
Then you dress in those muslim womens clothing. That or a sweater even if its 90 degrees in California. (j/k by the way 🙂 )
-Anthony, LA, CA
@ Anthony
I beg to differ. Maybe, you perceive to look a duck is actually a a chicken. As a friendly example, you do not have the right to take advantage or harass a woman no matter what she is wearing, just as I do not have the right to smack [someone] no matter how ignorant [his] comments are? See what I mean 🙂
Its wise not to wear a t-shirt that say “Mohammad was a fraud” in Iran just as it is wise for a woman not to wear a bikini in prison. In a civil society, one should respect their environment, but one should not react physically or abuse person’s choices.
Chris Walker emails:
Men will harass women regardless of what they wear. Because of this, it becomes one party engaging in offensive and unwelcome behaviour towards another. This should never be acceptable.
@ mboro,
i could not agree more on the point of patriarchy, however, I think that that is easier said than done. There has to be more education about what is patriarchy and how it affects our abilities to reason as well as act. in fact, it would appear that there is a bias here in favour of seeing women as ‘tramps’, basically, ‘asking for it’, if they dress in a particular way. Very strange as it suggests a very linear relationship between dress, sex and power – usually an excuse for failing to acknowledge that we are really trying to say that, men own women. After all, that all women have experienced some form of discrimination this way clearly makes the point that clothes are not the only consideration.
Get that mace and exercise a greater sense of security; if at work report it to superiors if your own interventions are not effective and, surely, the authorities if you feel that you are under threat. Even ‘tramps’ have rights too, I am sure! There could be no disagreement on this point, could there?
Helen Salka emails:
When a woman dresses with body parts on display that create arousal or interest in men, that is also sexual harassment. If he has to be in contact with her and is confronted with thighs and cleavage, he responds on a level he has no control over.
At work, what man really wants to be bothered by an erection which he cannot possibly satisfy,or hide? This conversation made every female the victim and every male the perpetrator; in real life the facts do not fit the stereotype or myth.
@ Amy
If you went into hiding, I’m afraid men would interpret that as an invitation to come look for you.
@ Vanessa
Hooters very different than a strip club. It’s still just a restaurant, but where they were skimpy clothes. I tihnk the standard of behavior there is and should be much different than at a strip club. If anything, non sexual inuendo in a strip club would make you stand out as a weirdo or something.
At my hotel in Montreal this weekend, there was some Fetish convention, where every woman was kinda dressed emo and had on black fishnet stockings. I have a feeling that’s the kind of place where you would be pretty free to make such innuendo and direct talk, whereas in a church, probbaly not a good idea. However the hooter’s waitress does make a killing in tips, and that’s the pro, whereas the con is some short, fat, bald, drunk guy told her shes hot. I’m sure the money more than compensates.
steve,
i have never been to hooters, i am a way to big a culinary snob for boobs to make up for bad food…, but even there one should treat the waiting staff politly. i mean big boobs do not protect from mental hurt, due to stupidity. i know your argument will be she does not need to work there, but as you said money is often a motivating factor….sound a bit like p….tion
Anthony Redelsperger emails:
Perhaps it’s the way I was raised, but I find people like Pascal pathetic. Because he and others like him can’t control themselves, they blame the women they harass for tempting them with the way they dress. If a man’s sexual desire is piqued, perhaps instead of harassment or rape of a woman, he ought to go home and masturbate.
Don’t abuse women for your own lack of self-control. That’s just archaic and chauvenistic to no end.
Francis Banks emails:
I think that most of your contributors have got the wrong end of the stick.
Sexual (or other) harassment is only harassment – whether it consists of looks, touches, pinches or whatever – once it is unwelcome. Men (or women) should be sensitive and judge what is welcome or not. However not all men are blessed with such sensitivity, and it is up to the woman (or man) to indicate what is welcome and what is not. Dress has nothing at all to do with harrassment, though a woman must expect more attention from men if she dresses provocatively.
We must remember that cultural norms vary enormously around the world and what is acceptable in one place is not acceptable in another.
@ Jessica
But you have the right to treat that person like an idiot, not smacking him, just like I can treat that kind of woman like a tramp, but I wouldn’t grab her or smack her.
-Anthony, LA, CA
@ Anonymous,
I see the Jamaicans here are making quite an interesting case on this matter! LOL! Love the idea about harrassing people based on how they look; that is, if women are to be harrassed for how they dress…Now, let the Games begin and to heck with civil society, as per Jessica note above! If ‘tramps’ have a right to be harrassed because of their dress then all bets are off!
Dorna emails:
This idea that women’s clothing has to do with whether they’re sexually harassed has already been tested! Look at Iran, women have been forced to cover themselves from head to toe exactly for that reason, for their own “protection.” Do you think women are not sexually harassed in Iran?? Me and all of my friends were pinched, slapped on the butt, rubbed, grabbed, been yelled and whistled at 5 times a day until I got out of there when I was 17!! It has NOTHING to do with how you’re dressed as a woman or how you look.
It’s all about who has power, who is dominant in the society. Men don’t whistle at women just because they’re attracted to them, there is also the requirement of “power,” the guy should feel dominant and confident and think the woman is weak and can’t do anything about it.
Jens,
I would agree that being a stripper is very similiar to being a prostitute, but Hooters, that’s stretching it. Sure, she is using her body to try to get a larger tip, but so to real estate agents, perfume sales women, etc.. In fact, women tend to get bigger tips from men than men get from women, yet women don’t seem to complain about this..
@ Jens
2 words, Spicy Chicken Sandwich with Hot Wings. Not bad food at all. That meal is one of my FAV meals over all. I wish I could get it without the girls yelling and screaming and clapping and blah blah blah B.S.
-Anthony, LA, CA
@ Steve and hooters:
It’s ok and guitless for hooters waitresses to use their body (and sometimes, though rarely, their personality) to scrape tips out of men, but not ok for men to look at them or comment…
(of course most of the comments are probably out of line lol). But its not like your working at Fridays or Applebees and it’s happening. Its another one of those “you put yourself in the situation” sort of things. The discretion issue… But then again thats what managers are there for… Of course most of the managers at hooters are male… Sooo, bias may be made if any complaints are issued….
There are a number of females, who face sexual harassment even before they know the literal meaning of the word. And there is not a single women who does not feel offended by it. Some people say that it is because of the our dressing sense. Myself, being from India where women get dressed in a number of ways. There are women who prefer traditinal clothes that covers them from toe to bottom and there are other women who do not hesitate in exposing their body part. But when you ask both the geners if they have experienced sexual harassment or not. Answer will be affirmative. So, it is not the dress that evokes such behaviour. The problem lies in the psychy of men who do not like missing a chance when they get it.
steve,
i agree with you for once, but just for once…..
@ Chris Walker,
Right on!
anthony,
i bet you, i could cook you a better spicy chicken snadwich and hot wings, and i might compliment you your shoes or smile 😉
Sunction can’t solve the problem in zimbabwe but increase the surfering of local population until mugabe leaves power.
@ Jens,
LOL!
The idea that it’s women’s clothing has been tested before. That’s exactly the argument that Iran’s government used to force women to cover up from head to toe.
Having lived there for the first 17 years of my life, being completely covered up, it had NOTHING to do with my or any other woman’s clothing.
If it had to do with clothing there would be no harassment there, given women were dressing normally before the revolution and were all of a sudden forced to be completely covered, it did NOTHING to stop men from harassing women. So it is absolutely uncorrelated.
It is all about showing dominance and power over women. If anything, men figured out they’re more powerful than women because of how women were forced to dress, and they had the excuse that well, I’m just a man, I don’t need to be responsible for my own actions. All it did was to give an excuse to guys that they can do whatever they want when it comes to their sexuality and they’re okay.
It’s a basic fact that positive attracts negative it’s the same for humans. When girls dresses vulgarly than it will surely make them vulnerable To men
@ Brett, technically hooters is a family place. I think, though am not positive, I saw kids in one the last time I was there. Ironically, I think it was a year ago really soon. It was the Redskins opening game last year, saw it in Rockville, MD. Believe me, every second the waitress walks away, she knows that the guys are talking about her. My friend wouldn’t shut up about our waitress. I like the one working another section more. But Hooters is one of those places where it’s pretty much a waste. The food is terrible, and she’s not going home with you.
@ steve and Jens
At Hooters they actually TEACH the girls to flirt and touch the mens arms and backs for the tips. They are gonna get some of that stuff with mentalities like that. Plus they wear skimpy outfits and its based around boobs!!!
-Anthony, LA, CA
@ Baiju Philipose & rawpoliticsjamaicastyle
Point taken! It is important to teach the next generation of women to stand up for themselves and the boys, soon to be men, that harassment is not acceptable.
steve,
are you suggesting that perfume sales women are lesbians, since they promote a product for women. maybe the counters should be staffed by suave looking italians
@ Anthony in LA, CA
How would you feel if someone demeaned your mom, sister or wife/girlfriend by sexually harassing them? Do your rules still apply?
@ Jens
HAHAHA, LOL! Ok, but you’d be lying because I have Payless Buy One Get One Half Off shoes!!! Man, now I want some of those Hooters Wings and Spicy Chicken!!!
-Anthony, LA, CA
@ Steve:
The food is terrible, and she’s not going home with you.
Haha, they should have that quote on the front door.
@ Anthony and waitresses touching men:
See, it IS like a strip club… The girls can touch you, but you can’t touch them.
Furthermore, I thought it was about Owls, not boobs… False advertising?!
anyway,
i off to hooters for lunch…….or is it just the local mexican restaurat called rosters.
ciao
Pat from California emails:
Harassment is the issue, whether “sexual” or not; by any human being to another. No one should have to submit to being talked to, contacted, followed or touched by ANYONE else, unless explicitly invited to do so. If we all respected each other’s right to privacy of their “personal space”, this problem would not exist.
Clothing, behavior, body movement should have no bearing….because, as we have heard from the African man on the program today, he is ready to give his unwanted attention to any female without acknowledging that there is a person inside that clothing who should have the same rights he does to go about his business without being groped or worse. Would this man also feel free to put his hands on another man in this way? If not, this is a lack of respect for WOMEN, over whom he feels a privilege of power.
@ Jonelle -Los Angeles
Yes. My sister would sometimes dress like that in highschool, and I called her names and told her to put clothes on. If any of those family members dressed like that the rules would very much apply.
-Anthony, LA, CA
Scott emails:
I totally agree with the Dutch man who commented late in the broadcast that it is entirely down to the actions of men who cannot accept “no” from a woman.
As far as I am aware, the word “no” exists in every language spoken on this earth?
We must teach young boys that when they are older they should respect girl friends/women when they say “NO”.
Equally, girls should be taught that it is their right to say “NO” and shout it out if they want to.
But, sadly, too many cultural and religious barriers exist in the world to accommodate this principle and women are treated as lower status beings in so many places of the world.
Until such time as this is recognized and acted upon women will have to suffer men whose brains are in their trousers !
@ Anthony in LA, CA
Good to know that you consistant. If that harassment turns to assult do the rules still apply? Or have they then crossed the line?
@ Anthony
“But you have the right to treat that person like an idiot, not smacking him, just like I can treat that kind of woman like a tramp, but I wouldn’t grab her or smack her.”
How exactly do you disrespect a women by treating her like a tramp?
@ Jonelle -Los Angeles
Oh yes, the touching has crossed the line in my view. Assault on a woman for ANY reason unless the woman is trying to kill you and has a knife or gun. Besides those reasons a woman should NEVER be physically attacked.
-Anthony, LA, CA
Malcolm emails:
This argument depends on the definition that each person has on this harassment. The lady from Kenya where I come from has to understand violence begets violence as we have seen recently. Sexual harassment versus harmless flirtation. Behind every man is a woman has absolutely nothing to do with the topic.
@ Jessica,
Totally!
@ Jonelle-Los Angeles,
Very funny!
PS: In relation to the bit about coming to look for women who went into hiding!
Leonel Francisco Rodriguez texts:
Women should be respected and whenever time they’re victim of harassment something according to the law should be done.
Women are not the only one who can be harrassed. In America, men have been harrassed yet the laws favour women.
Robert texts:
Can a man be sexually harassed by a woman? Just hearing the lady in Nairobi reminded me when I was in a club called Florida 2000 in Nairobi, a lady touched my bottom! I was choked! Should I have slapped her?
Eisa in Kabul texts:
Everyone has the right to dress whether it’s a woman or a man. I totally refuse the excuses men make and think they were attracted with the type of dress a woman wears. Rather men should control the movement of their eyes as part of their ethics.
@ Jessica
Well, if I told you some stories then I would be violating the WHYS terms, but basically, most act like “they’re all that”, or like they deserve special treatment. I’ll just say something like “shut up you stupid tramp” if I get any attitude. Or if I were to say something like “nice butt” and she gets upset, I’ll say something like, “well what do you expect, you look like a floosy!!!”. Something along those lines.
-Anthony, LA, CA
Banks in Amsterdam texts:
Perhaps these boys who can’t control their libido move to Afghanistan. You’re not allowed to see women at all there.
Umair in Kuwait texts:
A woman can not understand a man’s sexuality. If a woman dresses immodestly she will be seen as immodest and treated as such.
Jobs that put women in a vulnerable position are not good. Women should always be firm when talking and dress modestly, so bad people should not get a wrong signal.
@ Anthony
Please tell me your mom dropped you as a baby? 😛
Let’s add a twist to this. Say if a man sees a woman, and tells her he would like to have sex with her. She slaps him. Whose behavior is worse? His crude comments, or her assault and battery? Only one tort and possible criminal attack occurred, her assault of him, yet this is probbaly common, and probably never gets prosecuted. So on the other side of the coin, society excuses batteries on men by women who are offended by cruel words. Should that be acceptable? Violence in response to mere words?
This from an anonymous texter:
It’s a basic fact that positive attracts negative – it’s the same for humans. When girls dresses vulgarly than it will surely make them vulnerable to men.
Each of us should be responsible for how we treat one another. Our cultures determine what type of behavior is acceptable in each of our societies. In American culture it is unacceptable to be harassed in a sexual manner though it still happens.
In my experience the gender that is in the minority is the one that receives the harassment. When I was in college I interned in a office mostly made of women. A day did not go by when some type of sexual advance, remark, or a slap on the butt wasn’t thrown at me by multiple women in the office. It was made clear to me by my boss that my chances of being promoted would improve if would reciprocate those advances. I did not and was eventually laid off. I guess I wasn’t right for the company. LOL.
I did not dress seductively or immodestly. I did not create an environment that it was impossible for my co-workers to control themselves but I was gender in the minority and the employer had set a tone for the work place that it was fun and acceptable for the women(some of whom were married) to make off color remarks and advances at the young male interns.
We are in control of our actions. Let’s be responsible for them.
Men committing sexual harassment sometimes know that this is morally wrong, like the way human beings know that honesty is best policy but fail to follow that. Men think that they are born to dominate when it comes to men-women relationship. And at the same time, they feel that women are meek, an object of display and weaker sex. Sexual harssment exists beacuse they do not respect females, they want to show females that they are weak. Sexual harssment or any kind of harrasment germinates from the idea that there is a ruler and their are others who are to be ruled, that there is a master and other are to be tamed, that there is superiority and inferiority and inferiors are supposed to face the wrath of superiors. And above all if you want to have full control over some-one, you have to show your power, what ever way you adopt.
In my opinion, sexual harassment (so long as it is only verbal) falls into the same category as political harassment.
There’s a true story of a heroic soldier who returned from Iraq (and there’s a good point I’m going to make with this story). One night he was out somewhere in his fatigues and was approached by some guy bent on convincing him the U.S. was evil and that Bush was a liar and that the American army does terrible things, etc… After repeated respectful requests to be left alone, the crazy man would not go away.
Had the soldier been your average woman, and had the harassment been of a more sexual nature, half the people there would have stood up for her and thrown the crazy man out. Rightfully so. In fact, she would have been allowed to slap the man’s face without repercussions. In the true story however, after further provocation, the soldier gave in to the constant verbal abuse and punched the crazy man. The soldier was subsequently arrested.
Such is the nature of verbal harassment (physical harassment is obviously a different story and workplaces make their own rules as well). I think that our society should decide that everyone has to just deal with being harassed or that no one should have to deal with being harassed. If verbal sexual harassment on the street should be banned, then so should the protesters in Salt Lake City who deride and insult the mormons and their religion every time they try to have a peaceful gathering.
Who are men to decide…what is vulgar or not???
Tunde Kuoye from Ekiti in Nigeria texts:
Regardless of how a woman dressed men who harass women are animals,they should be treated as such.
Arinze from Adamawa, Nigeria texts:
Sexual harassment exists between both male and female, it is not peculiar to women. Don’t be feministic.
Idriss in Ghana texts:
Men & women can never be equal, whether you like it or not. The reality is, men are the people who have the upperhand, it’s god given birth right, no one can change it.
@ Jessica,
LOL!
@ Shweta,
Very good question. I found myself wondering as well. Just another attempt at regulating women and their bodies, is what I say! Which is good, so long as that is your cup of tea.
@ Sam,
Interesting point!
@Anthony and Steve
I think is not fair to generalize. I don´t like guys who are cocky, arrogant, mean, etc. I had my share of bad boyfriends and personally I despise those kind of men. I am sure that many women -like me- look in future partners respect, trust, kindness, pasion, etc.
I don´t get men who think that being aggresive is the way to go with women. I am married and still I have to deal with guys coming after me agressively. I remember a classmate that asked me out constantly, I told him several times that I wasn´t intersted and that I was MARRIED… He told me: “It doesn´t matter, I am not jealous” Sincerely… WHAT A JERK!!!
@ Luz Ma
It’s just reality, most women want and desire aggressive men, and men who aren’g aggressive like that are failures with women. You have to be very aggressive to get anywhere with most women these days. Any amount of shyness or hesitation is a total turnoff to women.
@ Steve,
I know a lot of men who refuse – in an era of sexual equality – to accept anyone striking them. The law is fairly clear, and if you want to call the cops and have her charged for striking you (or throwing a drink in your face), you are within your rights. However, it is considered “unchivalrous” to retaliate against a woman who strikes you, particularly when your behavior was rude enough to provoke her the first place. I would be embarrassed to call the cops if a woman hit me. If that woman is Laila Ali . . .
@ Jack
But shouldn’t violence not be condoned? If it’s deemed acceptable for a woman to smack (Assault) a man for what he says, then should it not be acceptable for a man to do the same if a woman says something to a man? If not, why the double standard? It seems to me that violence is a lot worse than words. So long as we can admit there is a double standard, I’m fine with it. But I can even see the situation if he stops her slap, hencing his hand comes into contact with hers, he could get arrested.
The point about how women should not dress in a manner that men find sexual:
Which men? It seems to me that each man as an individual has his own individual ideas about what is unnecessarily provocative. Are women mindreaders that they can look at a man and predict that he thinks her feet are sexually provocative, therefore she should keep them covered? The only way to make such a concept work is to totally separate the sexes.
Get real. Blaming women for being harassed because they did not meet some man’s personal understanding about what is modest and what is not is simply an excuse for bad behavior.
If you are a man and you believe that, then you are excusing bad behavior. In fact, you are approving bad behavior.
@ Steve,
I don’t doubt that you might have point. However, I wonder how much of what this is really what women want? (And, by that I am not proposing to know myself, I am just curious is all.)
Incidentally, what does ‘very aggressive’ mean re the above? A punch and a kick, ever so often, to remind her who’s boss? Berating her in public/ private and especially in front of friends; calling to check up on her all the time; stalking? What? Forced sexual intercourse? Belittling, patronising comments? What do you mean? Please explain.
And as for hitting a woman, how about trying to ensure that we never have to get to that place, in the first instance? All this focus on agressive, violent, crass, crude behaviour makes it all sounds like a sport. Like we are going out of our way to be in the gutters. Why the focus on these fairly unpleasant elements of male-female relationships and not on what a woman should do if she feels that she is being sexually harrassed?
Is it that only men can harrass women and are the actions of some men to be excused because women are basically ‘tramps’, as per the foregoing? Should women not have the right to expect to be safe, secure and respected and shouldn’t men feel obliged to comply, accordingly, and expect the same in return? What about avoiding people who are disagreeable, angry (all the time) and vexatious to the spirits? Or, is it anything is permitted in the name of sex? Is this how low the bar has been set? What’s really going on in this discussion?
@ Steve,
As it turns out, there is a lot of research to back up what you’re saying – again, with the following proviso. However, this research focused exclusively on Chimpanzees, Orangutans, and simple human societies (Yanamamo, Mae Enga and others). While it’s true that aggressive males are rewarded with inclusive (sexual) fitness, this has more to do with their violence against other males than it does with their persistence with women. While small male orangutans tend to actually rape females, when given their druthers, females choose the larger males – the ones that don’t rape them. There have been cross-cultural studies, of course, but oddly, the groups cited in these studies tend to be urban gangs. There really isn’t any cultural evidence that Western women, however, go for the guys that hassle them.
RE Sandra: “” However, we as women send mixed messages that confuse men. Some giggle and appear receptive to things others find offensive. We have a responsibility to ourselves and other women to teach men how to treat us.””
—————————————————————————————————
———- Thank you Sandra, this is what I’ve been asking for.
Perhaps if the women on this blog will go to utube and request girls fighting, bitches fighting, girls drunk, bitches drunk, bitches n hos, girls cursing, cussing, and every pornographic variant one can imagine, perhaps you’ll understand where many of these misanthropic chaps are coming from.
Amy Winehouse, Naomi Campbell, Lindsey Lohan, it’s a modern cultural twist to an age old problem. The biggest problem on these blogs is that many want everyone to be reasonable, and that ain’t what life is. Women have just as much say in western society about how culture shall be conducted, so, here we are.
What has anyone done to improve things? We could start by holding ourselves accountable, but looking at the voters, they’ve failed to hold the two parties accountable and helped mainstream a mean culture that used to be hidden.
The buck stops with all. I liked the pepper spray idea for starters. Maybe get together and get a box to split. Of course wait until above mentioned gals start spewing it like spritzers. Oh well.
Yes. It was horrible because it can make a work relationship strained. I did say something immediately which seemed to do no good so I left.. There is a definite line between men being self-assured and being aggressive. If a woman says no and a guy persists he’s harassing her; no matter how she is dressed or regardless of the fact he thinks permission is implied by her actions or any other factor. No means no always.
It’s not entirely about dress code, sure if a man woman dresses in a provocative way it will tempt a man to harass her. but should he? It’s all about judgement and control a man has over his temptation to harass her.
@ Steve (on the slapping thing). Again, the law is clear. If she hits you, you can have her charged. Culture is a little dicier, and it’s not a particularly good planning device. One advantage to it, however, is that it does change over time. In a generation or so, it might become unacceptable for men and women to hit each other, period. Or not.
@ Jennifer,
Right on!
@ Jack,
You are as bad as they come! Seriously though, was there really a similarity between the behaviours of the animals you mentioned and urban gangs? Most curious, if true!
Insecure people – men and women, resort to violence, force and, even boorishness to get what they want, no questions ask. If a man has to belittle or attack a woman’s self esteem in order to feel better about himself then there is more going on in that situation than sexual harrassment, in my view.
@ Raw
You confuse the message with the messenger. Feel free to trash me for being well read, but I thought we were having an open, intelligent discussion here. You may, however, consider taking up the matter with Napoleon Chagnon, Richard Wrangham, Jane Goodall and others. Further, I didn’t compare urban gangs with primates – as much as you would like to say that I did – I simply said that violent behavior being rewarded by inclusive fitness had been found to occur there. I also said it occurred in certain small-scale societies.
@ Ros, et al,
I am aware that these programmes usually follow what goes on in the news, often international politics, still what is the deal with always seeing this as an issue about men against women? I wonder how much of discussions like these reinforce stereotypical ideas about gender; like, women are victims and men are agressors?
I know that the present tone of the discussion has not done much to alter such an opinion, but it could be that the question(s) usually focus(es) on women in this way. I would be interested to hear also a discussion/ question outlining the extent of sexual violence meted out to men by other people, including women. How widespread is this problem and is it worthy of making ‘news’ in this same way?
@Steve
I don´t desire aggressive men. I know there are women that like this type of guys, but I also know MANY that regard violence and aggresiveness as a total turn off when looking for a boyfriend, partner, etc.
When I was dating, I liked guys who were a little bit shy around me. Sweet, nice and funny.
HI there,
There is this funny incident that just took place here in my province; Katanga province/Lubumbashi DR Congo. A man went out one evening, took a lot of alcool and then went in serch of a woman to satisfy his sexual desires. He managed to get one but which at the end turned onto a fiasco, he had a small portion of his tongue chopped off by the prostitude. they were still at the begining of the proceedue when the lady bit the mans tongue and went away with the peace of meat.
I do not know is this is the way women should react to sexual harassement for I am sure that man will always run away from women. Funny ehh!!! But it’s a reality.
@ Jack,
It seems that my posts are either being deleted or not making it onto the board at all, I am not sure what is happening. However, I did respond earlier to say that I was, in fact, not suggesting anything other than that your remarks in the context of what you said to Steve earlier were funny! Simple! I fear saying more, as I may be edited. So, I will leave it at that!
Hi Editor,
It appears that some of my remarks which were posted here earlier either did not make it onto the board, or have been deleted subsequently. Would anyone be so kind as to inform me why this is?
I responded to comments made by Jack regarding remarks which he made and apparently misunderstood my response. Now, I see where neither remarks have been posted on the blog – that was several hours ago. In fact, I could almost swear that I saw them earlier. What is happening?
With reference to my earlier post on on the demand and supply
In Cutting of the demand, I implied that proven cases of sexual harassment by men should be dealt with by the full weight of the with strict penalties to serve as a deterrent to other men.
@ Nelsoni
Rephrased well! 🙂
Thanks Jess …
Has anyone thought about the reason WHY men do this? If it didn’t work, and they got no results from it, then they wouldn’t do it, right? You’d think if treating a woman with “respect” and “kindness” would produce better results, then men would take that route. But apparently, that doesn’t seem to work, so these men figure they have better odds getting what they want going the other route, and life experience tends to confirm this. Of course everyone is different, but there’s got to be a reason why this happens, and it’s very likely because at least in some cases, it actually works, whereas they’ve probably failed miserably using other routes.
I have a friend who is very handsome and has confident with women, he would say anthing to any woman and never saw a single woman who would tell him off. Once he said something to strange woman I wouldn’t dare to say it to my wife.
I think all depends on the person, looks and the way you say it.
.You are refering to sexual harrasment of women only.It is applicable to both sexes.Where do you draw the line to sexual harrasment.?.Sexual harrasement is done by thought, word and deed. I am against harrasment by words and action. Howevever certain comments on ,dress, Physical attracctiveness are also considered harrasment by some but appreciated by others.Essentially vulgur remarks and pinching and deliberately knocking against a man or a women could be considered a form of harrasement..
Womens way of dressing causes mental harrasment to men.Some men consider this as mental torcher.Thus they may not be able to control themselves in lonely areas. Hence I would suggest that women should dress decently and act in a manner acceptable to the society.
Don’t forget the fact that men consider certain behaviour of women as an invitation. Nature has made the man the ‘Prime Mover’ and put him into trouble.
We shouldn’t disregard this reality,
every man have a sexually mad animl inside ,
this animal always remained peacfull,
and ubder strict contrl,
but availing the chance become out of contrl,
and commite offence ,
called,sexual harassment,sexual assult,commit sexual intercours by force.
As have seen,
experience is also witness,
strict laws has been failed,
in this connection,
men were hanged,
sever punishment was awarded,
but the trend still going on,
women are targeting of sexual abuse.
It is natural affence,not unnatural,
so need to contrl by other means,
taking amendments in the law,
relating to marriage system,
For example,
a group of thirty years old male unmarried
what will do avaling a young girl with paragon beauty,
she was sexually harassed ,
or subject to lust.
In this regard,
islamic social system,
and laws are better than,
must be fully impose,best treat ment of this disease.
If women dress in a sexy way, then they can’t complain if they are harrassed????
When I dress to look nice, as opposed to drag myself into the clothes on the floor by my bed, I get two reactions from men who I pass in the street:
1) “Hey gorgeous”, or something similar, respectful, maybe makes me blush a bit, but i feel flattered and smile or say something back.
2) “Whe, he yeah, I could show you a good time, give us a snog, don’t be mean, I’ve got a hard on….” and it gets worse.
The difference between them is not just my reaction or their language. It is that the first one is intended as a compliment and a respectful flirt. The second is meant to denigrate the woman because the man cannot bear his own resentment and jealousy of the sexuality she can bestow and chooses not to on him.
Now these are extreme examples but I am shocked by the number of male contributors who genuinely seem to think that “success with women” is achieved through aggression. When do you start this aggressive pounce? After you have got to know her and had a couple of conversations? – that must seem like a character shift. Or as soon as you see her and she is hot? – are you surprised that she is angry that you want to attack her with your sexuality but not engage her respectfully and equally in a conversation.
All these male contributors keep saying “ask any of my male friends, they’ll agree”. Surely you should be talking to women about how to find and attract the right women?
And even if your aggression is successful occasionaly, do you want to look back and say: “I’m with my girlfirend because I bullied her into it”???
ISAAC WROTE:
“This women rights is going out of hand. Women have committed a lot of crime by using seduction, destroyed souls and caused a great deal of wars. Seduction is rape. Women have caused a great deal of crime without having to pay for it. The way a woman dresses depending on how she dresses is a form of communication and invitation. Women are not the victims they want us to believe.”
I would like to ask, in his opinion, if seduction is rape, and women use their seduction, sometimes with unpleasant effects for others, and sometimes intententionaly so… then do women deserve to be raped, so as to be made to pay for it?
personally I think that women should react agressively to sexual harrasment.It is because if you just response softly they think that she is inviting you.Many woman have became the victim of seduction simply because of her naivity.so they should resist strongly so as to teach what does it mean to violate the right of woman.Furthermore, women too are to be blamed partly for sexual harrasment because unless men got little ‘hints’he will not dare to approach her.Anyway it is a crime to sexuaually harrass the women.
I am a man and I have epxerienced workplace sexual harrassment on two separate occasions (once I was cornered in a walk-in refrigerator when I worked in a kitchen at university).
We need to shake the idea that men are always perpetrators and women are always victims.
I call on the BBC to acknowledge a bit of gender equality for a change.
They should choose the appropriate “weapon”.
I’m shocked and saddened at some of the comments on here. Sexual harassment has nothing to do with the way a woman dresses – most women will tell you, and have stated on this site, that they can state many instances in which they have been harassed regardless of what they were wearing. I live in Minnesota. Half the year we are all in coats, hats, and scarves – but harassment is not seasonal. I live in the suburbs and used to walk to nearby stores. Even when I was in a giant sweatshirt though, I would get shouted and honked at the entire way, cars would slow down and circle back. Instead of it being a pleasant walk I would arrive at my destination feeling anxious.
As far as the men on here who have claimed that women who respond to sexual comments by slapping the guy – I don’t think they understand the nature of harassment that women endure. I was on a study abroad trip this summer, and two of the men in our group (who were Americans) insisted on calling myself and the other women bitches and whores to our faces. We politely asked them to stop and clearly stated that we were not comfortable with their comments. I even told the program directors. It continued. The daily treatment from these men was intimidating and ugly. I never hit either of them, but I came very close. I am a black belt in Tae Kwon Do and participate in kickboxing. Part of the reason these men continued their action was their sense of invincibility. I don’t believe physical violence is a sound solution, but I also couldn’t argue that these men didn’t deserve to be hit.
What I think it is difficult for men to understand is the way in which most of us women experience sexual harassment daily for so long, that a strange man coming up to you and asking for sex is part of a constant barrage. And “no” often isn’t accepted as an answer.
As far as men who have experienced harassment – I’m very sorry. That is not alright either. Culture needs to change so that it takes everyones reports seriously. When someone asks you to stop, it is NEVER permissable to continue. No matter what the woman is wearing or what twisted notions of dating you have (Steve, you may have had a few odd experiences – but please don’t try to say that your interpretations of your own romantic past make you qualified to state that women want “aggressive” men).
I was sexually harrassed at work. I tried my best to handle the situation but it ended with me being severely depressed and suicidal, and i had no option but to leave my job; just as my harrasser intended as I wasnt giving in to him.
I reported him and felt like i was being made out to be a liar. At the end of the day he was a major investor in the business, and so it was easier to try and make me shut up.
I wouldnt touch “dominating” men with a barge pole.
Karen,
you should have contacted a lawyer and it prob end up you being the major investor then lol. And for those people that feel they cant respond because they afraid of getting fired, respond anyways what you feel so they know you are for real and if they fire you then you deserve to work at a better place where they wont treat you like that, collect unemployment and sue them. Take a nice long vacation on them.
@ Jediwan
What do you suggest for someone who is doing their internship? They aren’t hired as an employee and are being graded as part of their education. Going to their internship coordinator would put them in an even more vulnerable situation because not only would they maybe be called a liar but also might have to deal with the negative consequences as they relate to their education. That’s why I did not say anything. And, it did start over time with compliments and progress to a whole lot worse. I am shy and I think he used that to his advantage. Instead of having a nice long vacation, I’d rather just be treated like a person.
Ugh, thank you, Kelly, for saying what I was pretty much despairing to say after reading the other comments on the board. All the blokes making smug comments about women asking for it, or about aggressive men being more attractive, are spewing rubbish. I’ve lived in a few countries so far, and my experience has been that it doesn’t matter how old you are, or who you’re with, or what you’re wearing, or what your mood is… at some point you *will* be harrassed, if not more, by some smug jerk who thinks he’s god’s gift to females. The reason has nothing to do with what you look like or what you wear (how else can I explain the incessant honking from cars approaching from far behind, often when I’m dressed in a coat/sweatshirt)? It has to do with the fact that they think it’s expected, and that they can get away with it, and that they probably enjoy the slightest bit of reaction they get from you, because to them they have earned your attention. I know some girls don’t mind “eve-teasing” (what a word), but the majority of them do, and it is extremely frustrating to not even have the freedom to just be in a public space without feeling like a piece of meat. You can ask me to be less sensitive about it and I can ask you to sod off, because unless you’ve felt that frustration and helplessness, you don’t know what it’s like.
Also, Steve and Anthony, you’re talking out of both sides of your mouth. You can’t say harrassment is unacceptable but also say the woman/girl is asking for it by dressing in a particular manner. Also, Steve, I don’t know what sort of women you were interested in dating, but I can’t imagine many confident, intelligent women going for an aggressive man of the kind you describe. Assertive and confident in his own right, sure; we like a backbone. But your description is rude and sleazy. Pardon me if this offends you, but my observation is that you weren’t a genuinely nice guy, but a Nice Guy(TM). Look it up.
Please don’t publicize my last name again.
Aggressiveness (defined here as butt-grabbing, name-calling, telling-her-where-you-want-to-stick-it) works only with mentally-unstable abused women (the kind described in steve’s example). I think it is pretty much established by normal women that they no more want boors than they want wimps. As for attractiveness, a man who treats a normal woman like a piece of meat fast becomes unattractive in her eyes.
Those men indulge in sexual harrassment only because they have no other route, being either woefully unattractive or of brutish character or of rough manners. Otherwise, they would actually be with a woman rather than out harrassing her. Should they succeed, aforementioned mentally-unstable abused women are all they’ll ever get. So it does work, but only for that kind of man and that kind of woman.