The World Bank says the Palestinian economy won’t grow primarily because of Israeli restrictions on movement. It’s been picked up by hundreds of bloggers because of course it raises far broader issues about the relationship between Israelis and Palestinians and the route they see to a peaceful and prosperous life.
We’ve invited two Israelis, two Palestinians and a representative of an aid organisation into the WHYS studio to talk with us and each other. We’re not going to set a question. We’ll just let them choose which way to take the conversation. Please leave comments or questions for them here.
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BBC World Have Your Say 
To the Israilies: would you have continued your attack on Palestinians if not for the suppot given to you by USA in various forms?.
There must be a way of perhaps one day having a “Palestinian State”? While Israel continues to kill Palestinian Civilians no talks are possible. The USA who have financed Israel in many ways have a government split roughly 60% Christian and 40% Jewish, no Muslims. While that situation continues can they really be believed when they seem to be trying to get peace talks underway?
In The UK we do have Muslims in our government, as well as Jewish and Christian polititians.
Finally since the “birth” of Israel in the 1940s about 2 million Arabs have been killed? Is that not a form of holocaust too?
An obvious requirement is a “Palestinian State”. While Israel continues to kill Palestinian Civilians this cannot happen. The USA has helped Israel since it’s birth in the 1940s. The American Government is split roughly 60% Christian and 40% Jewish. No Muslims. They must therefore be biased when “helping” with peace talks.
In The UK we have all 3 major religions in our government.
Finally since the “birth” of Israel about 2 millions Arabs have been killed. Is that not a form of Holocaust too?
To have an economy one must have a legitimate and viable government. Palestine has neither, so how then can one even conceive them having an economy. They have lived on global handouts since the creation of the Israeli state and regardless of immediate courses of action, they will continue to depend on handouts. There are more pressing issues in this conflict which need to be addressed before we can turn to their non-existent development and economic centres (farming and manufacturing.)
Imran Khan wrote this re McCain comments and I believe it is a realistic argument on the subject. Old fashion rockets against gunships, Come on people. Who really is fooled. See WZAR TV .com
On March 20, U.S. Republican presidential candidate John McCain visited Sderot, an Israeli town frequently hit by Palestinian rockets from nearby Gaza Strip. His visit was part of a fact-finding mission to the Middle East, he said.
“The fact is that I come from a border state. If people were rocketing my state, I think the citizens from my state would advocate a very vigorous response.”
There’s absolutely no doubt that these are 100 percent true words, but one can change his words slightly. He said if people were rocketing his state, but what if those people occupied his state and forced its citizens from their homeland? Perhaps his words might have been like the following:
The fact is that others have occupied our state by brutal force, killing many innocent citizens and forcing us from our land, so it’s natural to attempt to regain our land via a very vigorous response.
If a portion of their land was returned to them, but all control remained in the hands of their occupiers, then his words might have been like this:
The fact is that a small portion of our state has been returned to us, virtually without any rights. But because citizens in our state want their full rights and their land back, our occupiers have made our lives miserable by not providing our basic necessities, instead using them as a tool for collective punishment. Surely, this sparks a very vigorous response.
Perhaps the last paragraph best describes the situation in Gaza, particularly Gaza Strip, where 1.5 million live in a territory 25 miles long and six miles wide, making it one of the world’s most densely populated areas.
Unemployment is 80 percent and thousands more have lost their jobs since last June. Approximately 79 percent of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip live in poverty. For example, 80 percent of the population is dependent on food aid, with at least 130,000 Palestinians estimated to be food insecure.
This situation isn’t new, as residents there have been suffering for more than 40 years. Israel pulled its troops and settlers out of the Gaza Strip in 2005, 38 years after capturing the territory in the 1967 Middle East or Six Day War. However, it still controls Gaza Strip’s borders, airspace and coastal waters, in addition to completely fencing it in, essentially making it the world’s largest prison.
Hamas won the 2006 elections and seized control of the territory from the Fatah faction in fighting last June. Since then, Israel has tightened its blockade of the Gaza Strip, worsening the situation there and creating a humanitarian crisis.
What McCain said regards simple human nature that if someone attempts to attack us, we will defend ourselves. Simply pressuring humans isn’t the answer to achieve anything. Everyone knows this, so why do people twist words in their favor and forget the others? McCain and others in the U.S. administration believe that it is Israel’s right to take revenge against rocket attacks on its towns. Let’s suppose their judgment is right.
On February 27, one Israeli was killed in rockets attack on Sderot. It actually was the first of its kind in nine months. Israel immediately launched a military offensive in Gaza, killing 120 Palestinians – mostly civilians – including women and children.
In fact, Israel has killed thousands of Palestinians over the past 40 years. Since 2000, more than 2,600 mostly civilians have lost their lives due to Israeli aggression and millions have been forced from their land, living in refugee camps in various countries.
So, who are the victims? If attack is the basis for revenge, then who should take revenge?
While there have been many efforts to bring peace to the area, no real gains have ever been realized. The basic reason for the failure of peace talks between Israel and Palestine is that the peacemakers (mainly the United States) primarily feel the pain of those who’ve actually inflicted more pain on the other side.
There’s an unofficial ceasefire between Israel and Hamas these days and Egypt is attempting to broker a peace deal between the two, while the U.S., the European Union and Middle East nations are interested in a long-term peace deal between Israelis and Palestinians.
However, peace comes with justice. Just as Israelis have the right to live peacefully, the same is the right of poor Palestinians also. Neither Israel nor anyone else can achieve any type of peace via force. That’s our human nature. McCain and others know this well, but they also must consider the situation from a Palestinian perspective as well.
Every individual, and by extension every society, needs food, shelter, and a way to regulate body temperature. In order to generate this society needs resources to either grow their own food or barter for it from another community. It also requires energy. Whether that energy comes from a power plant or slave labor, it needs energy to perform the tasks of growing food, producing products to buy food, building houses, making cloths, and moving these materials around their borders. This speaks nothing to the fact of making luxuries, securing sovereignty, and conducting governmental and educational functions.
If you restrict any one of these resources, or their derivative resource you will restrict the growth of the community. If Israel is restricting any of these for Palestine then they are directly responsible for the repression of the people who live there.
Hi Ros and the rest of the team,
i think both sides in the Middle East are not fully committed to amicable peace because they both know they will have to cede ground and agree to painful concessions if a lasting solution is to be found.
I think Israel and Palestinians should get it in their heads that coexistence is the only solution and could we please lower the religious attachment to the conflict?
Nairobi
Peter Gizzi, why don’t you come out and just say you don’t think Jews should be allowed to vote, hold office, or be employed?
“Finally since the “birth” of Israel in the 1940s about 2 million Arabs have been killed? Is that not a form of holocaust too?”
Come on moderators, why are you publishing this fool’s antisemitic rants? He’s trying to claim Israel has killed 2 million arabs? Perpetratinga holocaust? Blamign the arabs killing each other on Israel? Come on, is this place becoming a hate site? 40% of the US government is Jewish? Care you back up your preposterous claim, and even if it were true, is there a problem with that? We don’t have Nuremberg laws here Peter.
Hello Mr. Atkins,
I’ve spent an hour or so reviewing the history of this region. It seems a veritable googol of complication. I can barely get a handle on the actors, much less the actions. I could suggest only that since the shape of the future depends upon the current shaping of youth on both sides, lots of young people should be engaged in the conversation. Some facilitators armed with memorized copies of T.C.Schilling’s “Strategy of Conflict,” might help the conversation to achieve productive results for all (It’s not a problem with just two) sides. The adults need reminded the children on both sides are absolute innocents, not actors in the conflict, just victims of it.
Gary
I live now in the US and I am a proud American but I am originally from Palestine, born and raised there! If it was not for Israel occupying the West Bank in 1967, I would not be here in the US. My grandparents were driven of Haifa in 1948. In spite of all this, I want peace with Israel, I want to have an Independent Palestine. The people in Gaza are suffering because they let an organization like Hamas to rule them! They should have thought more before electing Hamas who only asking for the destruction of Israeal and its people. At the same time I wish Israel to stop building the settlements and sit with the Palestinians to have an evelasting peace.
Again, again, and again we are been bugged down by Israelis and Palestinian issue. Those two groups of peoples are warlike people, let them fight it out.
Hi Precious Ros… My question to your two Israeli guests is : What do both of you guys think about the strategies of your government and your army regarding tackling Palestinian militancy. Extreme overreaction, aggression, collective punishment, indiscriminate killing, killing tens of innocent Palestinian civilians just to only kill one or two Palestinian militants, slaughtering the person who’s slapped you on the cheek. Does any of these wrongful acts sound familiar to both of you guys ?! I’m an Arab and a devout Muslim, but I’m also able to condemn strongly the senseless murdering of any Israeli civilian, no matter the excuses or the justifications are. Are both of you guys able to condemn strongly the senseless murdering of any Palestinian civilian, no matter the excuses or the justifications are ?! My Precious Ros, the FM broadcasting of the BBC World Service to Baghdad has been missing since yesterday. With my love. Yours forever, Lubna.
by having all these restrictions on palestinians israel wants to make sure that they remain the controlling “partner” in this dispute.israel is scared that one day palestinian economy will be better than their economy and palestine will be some self sufficient.by controlling the water,movement of goods,movement of people and taking away the best land for illegal settlements israel will soon be an apartheid state.(if it is not one already). and this is completely against the principles of judaism.
The Israelis are doing to the Palestinians what the Nazis did to them in Germany. It is as simple as that, I do not see any other rational reason for what is going on in Palestine. We are witnessing a revenge of immoral self righteous Zionists in the Holy Land. The world is being morally blackmailed to accept the immoral action of the Israelis government to innocents women and men in Palestine. Fortunately not all Jews approve of this, unfortunately they are too few to make a difference.
Jacques KO from Boston
Any restriction on movement by Isrealis against Plalestinian, which hurts the Palestinian economy is simply an economic crime against a nation state.And when such Blockade causes death resulting from hunger, sickness, etc, it should be treated as genocide. Those responsible should be tried as such.
One regretable thing in the resolution of the Palestinian and Isrealis age long problems or the so called peace talks is that both the USA, UK and indeed, the Western World, are only paying lip service and hence not interested in the actual resolution of the problems.The US, UK and their allies know what to do to bring real peace to the Isreali and Palestinian problems. They should stop pretending!
”
The Israelis are doing to the Palestinians what the Nazis did to them in Germany. It is as simple as that, I do not see any other rational reason for what is going on in Palestine. We are witnessing a revenge of immoral self righteous Zionists in the Holy Land. The world is being morally blackmailed to accept the immoral action of the Israelis government to innocents women and men in Palestine. Fortunately not all Jews approve of this, unfortunately they are too few to make a difference.
Jacques KO from Boston
”
More unbelievable statements. Why are you approving this rubbish? The Israelis are committing mass murder on the Palestinians? They have death camps, where they work palestinians to death or gas them to death? That’s funny, because Jordan killed more Palestinians in 1970 than Israel has in 40 years, but I wouldn’t want the facts to confuse you. Self righteous? At least I don’t have to make preposterous lies to have an argument. Why are you approving this antisemitic garbage? Israelis are doing to the Palestinians what the Nazis did to the Jews? Why are you publishing this antisemitic BS!????? Nobody with a straight face could ever say something as preposterous as that.
Steve, I am not sure i understand what you are saying. Are you saying that it is alright to drive people out of their homes and keep them downtrodden?
Are you saying that because people perceive events in different ways the opinions of the minority should be squashed?
Is that what you are saying? I am confused.
Thanks…
The world economy is already ailing with other factors that has seen the credit crunch to loose its burgaining power.
The major problem of the ailing economy is not the Israel/Palestine conflict but it is something that God proclaimed long many years time ago through his numerous prophets in the book of life – bible.
The Palestine economy has to some other extent been aggravated by Bush’s stingy ambitions to cow the oils of the world through dubious deals that has characterised the UN in Congo. This is what Bush wants to see, he wants to come from the back to steal other people’s wealth through what the UN peace keepers in Congo have done.
These UN peacekeepers and USA army come to other countries with false pretence as peacekeepers but in actual sense, they come for behind the scenes motives.
The Palestine economy has mainly dwindled not because of the Israel fortified perimeter that they built along the Gaza strip and all other borders bordering Palestine as the World Bank would like the world to believe.
Generally, the world is at the blink of another 1940s recession. There is no better country right now that is having a fresh breadth with this economy.
What is needed is to tell the Palestine and Israel to unite for the better world.
Do not bring the economic crisis into the Palestine/Israel issues.
Let Bush and Brown and the World Bank find a better solution to the dwindling economy before the economy sinks into deep waters of recession.
@ Selena
Can you answer me this question, Why didn’t Egypt and Jordan give the Palestinians independence between 1948-1967?
If the Arabs would have negotiated with Israel in 1967 instead of the 3 Nos of Khartoum, there would haev been no settlement,s no occupation, no nothing, the arabs refused, and was Israel going to hand back territories in exchange for nothing? Of course not.
Hi Steve. I appreciate you’re angry and that you feel very strongly that opinions being extressed are anti-Semitic. The issue of what is anti-Israel and what is anti-Semitic is one we have had a few times on WHYS. So far, I think the comments we’ve published are within reasonable boundaries of a debate on this blog, though clearly what they assert is highly contentious. There are very strong feelings on both sides of this issue. I’d just ask that we all engage with each other, and ask questions of each other. We don’t want a shouting match either on the blog or the programme.
Ros, stating that Israel is acting like the Nazis is dishonest at best. Are you suggesting by approving such messages that Israel has death camps set up and Israel is systematically trying to kill of the Palestinians? If so, then we must admit, the Israelis are really horrible at it, right? Especially given how their “arab brothers” have killed a lot more Palestinians over the years, but let’s not confuse ourselves with facts here.
Ros, look at the comments here. Israelis are like the nazis, Israel has killed 2 million arabs (that’s the most rediculous claim I’ve ever read on WHYS), 40% of the Us governmetn is jewish (that’s the second most rediculous claim I’ve ever read on here).. What are these comments if they aren’t antisemitic?
Would it be better to partition parts of Jordan and Syria and make that the Palestinian state?
With free aid from the west and Israel in the partition and cash to build up a infrastructure of housing, manufacturing industry, transport and a welfare and health system? Discount all sales of cars, buses and aircraft (non-military) so the new Palestinian state could come to fruition in a very short time.
Hi Steve. Comparisons between Israel and the Nazis is clearly controversial but it has been made on many occasions, by academics, politicians and many bloggers. It’s not an opinion we are going to stop being expressed here. The accusation against Israel adn how many Arabs it has killed depends on who you ask. It is like trying to assess how many people have died in Iraq because of the war. People differ on this wildly as they do in the Middle East more widely. It may or may not be right but it’s not anti-Semitic. And the stat about the US government does sound high to me (though I don’t know what percentage of officials are Jewish). It may be wrong, it’s not anti-Semitic. I’ve got to get on with my preparations for the show. I appreciate you getting so involved.
Steve,
I really don’t think the feelings being expressed here are anti-semitic. Well, anyway, I don’t take them that way.
What I think people are saying is, no one can dispute that the Palestinians are in a no win situation, as long as things stay as they are.
Unfortunately, strong language has to be used in order for anyone to sit up and take notice. It takes strong language for something to sink in.
For me, there is only one thing to consider. That is, people are suffering and Israel, being the dominant force, can stop the suffering if it chooses.
Steve, I know you can see this if you open your heart and find your compassion. We are all human beings on this speck in the universe.
It is time to move forward and do unto others as we would have them do unto us.
Unless Israel has set up death camps and have killed millions of people, are out to conquer the entire world, then any comparison of Israel to the nazis is dishonest at best. Ros the reason why the statement about the US government is antisemitic, is not that the stat is wrong, which it clearly is, but it’s saying something is wrong with having Jews in the government at all. I’ve seen people post on HYS (not WHYS) that Jews shouldn’t be allowed to vote, or run for office or be able to own property. Why didn’t Peter throw out a 100% stat, that Jews run the government? THey run the show. Why not just say that if you’re going to make up baseless accusations?
The World Bank says the Palestinian economy won’t grow primarily because of Israeli restrictions on movement.
Really?! Wow, because I thought that the measures of collective punishment employed by the Israeli’s and the continued ‘blind eye’ approach by other nations in the region were helping the economy!
Both sides are wrong in this and are continuing down their respective paths of error.
I see little room for the economy to grow until Hamas is removed from power by the people of Palestine, a [new] majority supported government installed by the people, and the Warsaw-like collective herding and punishment by the Israeli’s is stopped.
Regards,
Brett ~ Richmond, Va.
Steve – When WHYS first went to the States we spent a show discussing a major academic report on the influence of the Israel lobby on the US government. It is a legitimate area of discussion, and to be critical of the influence of that lobby is not being anti-Semitic. I agree that to simply state that such and such a percentage of Jews in a government makes it inherently bad is out of order. But to look at the influence of a group of people and the effect that has on policy is not. Steve – you’re distracting me from my prep!
HYS allows lots of antisemitic posts:
Added: Monday, 28 April, 2008, 12:42 GMT 13:42 UK
Who could possibly fail to believe the Assad family tyranny, well known state sponsors of hamas islamic fascism, assasins of lebanese christian politicians and so forth. Well anyone who is’nt a bbc educated dhimmi or mohammedan 7th century weird beard will, I suspect, harbour some scepticism.
James Sheen, United Kingdom
Why are jews allowed to make racist remarks like Dhimmi? Would I be posted if I was to suggest that the holocaust is a fairy tale?
grahame, herne
http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?sortBy=1&forumID=4686&start=45&tstart=0&edition=1&ttl=20080428164239#paginator
Let’s see, he assumes the person he’s responding to is Jewish, and then goes on with the holocaust denial stuff, then gets published, disproving himself. I guess they did it to make him look like a fool, but that’s not the only instance.
Here’s another good one:
“Nonsense. The Arab leaders for the most part supported the allies, and Israeli terrorists ritualy murdered British soldiers.
My Grandfather was stationed there mate, and it wasn’t the Palastinians he was scared of.
George Reddan, London, United Kingdom ”
Ritually murdered British soldiers? Is that the blood libel thing, making matzah out of christian blood?
May be Turkey should forget about joining the EU and do the world a favour by creating a sphere of influence in the Middle East(or West Asia as they say here in India) and Central Asia.
Better the Turks guiding nation building than the religious extremists or Russians.
What is the rationale for continuing to build settlements on land taken in 1967? Since it has been acknowledged for the last 40 years by the Israelis as disputed territory, how can they expect to have any credibility in negotiations when their actions continually compound the problem? The settlements have been repeatedly cited by everyone involved as being at the heart of the issue and yet they continue to expand. Why?
Don’t the Israelis see the contradiction?
2 million Palestinians slaughtered by the Jew-Nazis?
How absurd. Is there a single reputable source for such a figure? Then why allow such misinformation to be published on WHYS? The comparison with Iraq is hardly fair – in terms of the true casualty numbers not being known. Most people accept a figure in the region of 100,000 (rather than the propagandistic 600,000 extrapolated from some anecdotally gathered and carelessly estimated figures a few years ago).
Surely WHYS shouldn’t be promoting fantasy and vilification over reasoned and informed debate?
And 40% of the US government being Jewish? Not under a Republican administration, I don’t think.
@Will: interesting point. I believe that three quarters of the original post-Ottoman territory of Palestine became Jordan. It’s in this sense that some Israelis argue (self-interestedly, of course) that Jordan is the Palestinian homeland. It would make a lot more sense to place the West Bank under Jordanian control than to try to establish a (second) Palestinian state there, given the mess that Fatah and Hamas have made of things.
Questions for your Palestinian guests:
1. do your accept the UN partition of Palestine into two states?
2. In what sense are the Palestinians a distinct, historic nation, compared to their fellow Arabs in Syria and especially Jordan ?
3. Do you accept that historically, culturally, politically and spiritually Jews have a unique claim on the land of Israel?
4. Since Israel will never surrender Jerusalem, in whole or in part, do you accept that it will never be the capital of a Palestinian state. If not, do you propose recovering it by force?
5. Do you accept that the Arabs made a mistake in 1967 (calling and preparing for war against Israel) which led to the loss of the West Bank, Gaza and Jerusalem.
@ John, so they have bargaining chips. The palestinians are going to demand the “Right of return” so that israel can cease to be a jewish majority country, effectively detroying Israel, which they couldn’t do on the battlefield. In order to prevent this, Israel will dismantle the settlements as a compromise, otherwise the palestinians would just continue their war with israel indefinetely because they will be upset they didn’t get absolutely everything they wanted. It’s not like teh arab nations are going to provide a settlement for the same amount of jews that were expelled from muslim nations between 1948-1952
Steve,
Freedom of speech is freedom of speech, no matter who speaks and no matter what they say.
Otherwise, what YOU are able to stifle today, someone else will prevent YOU from saying tomorrow.
Remember, there is no absolute truth in any of those matters. Debate is always about who can make the better case.
It is time to look past debate, Steve, and look at what we really know for certain: innocent children are suffering and, more than that, are being brought up to hate, on both sides.
I’m an Israeli, who lived in the US now for more them 20 years. I see the Israelis pretense of being the victims of the situation, obscene. By comparison to the way Israel has systematically taken, stole, and disenfranchised the Palestinian community, in order to create a prosperous Israeli state. The Israelis I talk with, friend and family (considered liberals) haven’t a clue of the conditions the Palestinian people have to live under. Nor do they take any responsibility for there actions as a subjugating society.
Tami from San Francisco
Do the Israelis and Palestinians want to solve the problem and if so, what will it take?
There is a saying in my native language that translates into this : “it is ignorance that makes the mouse get up to try and attack the cat”.
Israelis just want to live in peace but the Arabs have made up their minds to harass them (the israelis).
Almost all of the time Israel wins the battles and Palestinians suffer, yet thay don’t learn their lessons.
Why not the Arabs respect Israel’s right to exist?
Look at the recent historic record of this region,lets say back to 1930. Jordan is close to 70% Palestinian. Why in the world havent the Arab countries supported the annexation of the West Bank and even Gaza by JORDAN???
Why hasn’t the United States and the United Nations worked on making this happen? Jordan IS Palestine and vice versa. This is a definate area that needs exploring and SHOULD be explored. The truth is that the Arab world, perhaps rightfuly so, perhaps not, wants nothing less than the destruction of the Jewish State.
If this wasn’t the obvious case, the above scenario would be very possible if not likely.
Hello Ros,
It seems that there is no “neutral” in this discussion. In any conflict, those with their backs against the wall will do what they must to survive. The basic facts suggest that the Palestinians are in a box that they are not allowed to emerge from, Israel is the keeper of the box. Without ears and eyes to see what would you do to escape?
Israel has the ability to change the situation, yet they continue with an agenda that keeps palestinians in a box. A sense of entitlement to the land does not give them the right to take it. History is long and there are many reasons for many things, but war is war is war and there is no right side only a victor. In this case it seems that jews and arabs are fighting themselves for a victory that can only be achieved through peace. Not anti-arab or anti-semetic, just anti-war………
Why not the Arabs respect Israel’s right to exist?
As occupiers in their own territory which was taken from them in 1967?
@ selena
I’m not stifling speech, I’m stifling lies. YOu don’t have free speech to defame, you don’t have a right to shout “fire!” in crowded theater if there is no fire. If I said a false statement about someone, say if I called them a rapist of a pedophile, they would have cause of action against me if my statement were not true.
I am tired of the situation. Like northern Ireland it will only change when the blood and guts goes from ankle deep to chest deep and people feel exhausted moving through it.
ISRAEL: RENOUNCE VIOLENCE AND RECOGNIZE PALESTINE
Hello,
My question is very simple to the Israeli side : Why don’t just you give the Palestinians their autonomy ? They have as much right to their own country as you do.
I’m interested to hear why the Israelis deny such basic right.
Sincerely
Daisy, Chicago
Why did Egypt occupy Gaza from 1948-1967 and Jordan the west Bank from 1948-1967, and why didn’t they give the Palestinians independence?
Steve
USA
@ Brett
“Why not the Arabs respect Israel’s right to exist?
As occupiers in their own territory which was taken from them in 1967?”
You are wrong Brett. Israel won Gaza from Egypt. Israel won the West Bank from Jordan, in 1967. In 1948, The arabs attacked Israel to destroy it, and failed. THey did win Gaza and the WB, and occupied it themselves, and did NOT give the Palestinians a state, but occupied the territories until Israel won them in 1967. Please don’t ignore the facts. It was taken in 1948 by the arabs.
Isreal needs to abandon all settlement areas in the West Bank, and return to the Palistinians all pre 1967 lands.
Golan Heights need to remain in Isreali possession, because they were lost in 67 by an obnoxious, invading Arab army from Syria. The Golan Heights are naturally more important to Isreal than to Syria as a purely defensive perspective.
One look from the Golan Heights will prove why that ground must remain in Isreali possession.
A strip of land for all utilities and road access between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank must be formed to connect, and not isolate the Gaza Strip from the West Bank. This Gaza-Bank strip needs to be large enough to support homes and shops, businesses all along the way.
Jerusalem needs to be a shared City. Like Berlin was between the two nations.
United Nations Head Quarters needs to be built there in a District of International Peace that is Neutral ground inside Jerusalem yet it be neither Arab or Isreali.
troop
nehalem, oregon
Russ,
The middle eastern countries have always been at some type of conflict with each other. These conflicts always have something to do with either land or religion. There have been talks of peace on both sides, but do both sides really want peace?. To make a long story short, these countries have been fighting since the beginning of time and will until the end of time.
If you want peace in the middle east, leave!
Thanks
Michael
Hey WHYS:
I find it curious that you have equal number of Israelis and Palestinians, to give the illusion that there is parity.
There can never be an equality as long as the present situation continues. That Israel uses million dollar tanks, helicopter gunships and F-16 aircraft and you really think people around the world buy your propaganda. The Palestinian people are left with crude home-made rockets and suicide bombers.
Never mind, the Palestine people will prevail in the end.
Have a good day.
WN
Madison, WI, USA
Europeans took over the United States from the native Americans, should America hand America back to the native Americans?
Can a one state solution, based on strict secular democracy, work for the entire Palestine-Israel region?
If American sponsorship ended tomorrow morning, how many months would Israel be able to survive economically?
Thank you,
Yani
Ottawa Canada
Isn’t the “Why?” irrelevant at this point? How much time has to pass before the actions of the past do not predicate the current discourse?
I think both sides need to heed the effective lessons of cognitive therapy: not how we got here, why things are this way or who is to blame, but how can we fix it? Isn’t this the intelligent solution.
-Portland, Oregon
hm. a 3000 year right of return?
to the people who support this who live in america, how do you reconcile this with the native americans? don’t they have at least a 10,000 year right of return?
should they have the right to THEIR ancestral lands?
The woman speaking right now is proving to me the fact that Israel is in the wrong. She is a hate monger and wants this conversation to explode! I feel terrible for Palestine.
All parties in this mess have got to step back and take a breath and a cup of tea. Then the parties must acknowledge each others existence and go from their. It all goes back to the U.N. in 1948, when the state of Israel was created. There would have been a Palestinian state if only the leaders of the Arabic countries had stayed and talked in the general assembly. IN the time since all has been forgotten, and new problems have arisen. It is now time for the Palestinians and Israelis all of them together sit down and make the Palestinian state that was denied in 1948. These are the people who must do it nobody else.
I was wondering why people cannot understand how the Palestinians feel. Most people would not accept being taken off their land so a new nation can emerge. Although Israel is the home of the Jews, the Palestinians had made it their home and people are not allowed to go to the land where their grandparents are born. I try not to get on either side, but I can see both viewpoints.
If you watch the Fitna video, it has footage from documentaries produced by the Palestinians, where little children would say that Jews are descended from apes and monkeys. Do you really think peace is possible when Palestinian kids are taught to hate jews from the day they are born?
Back in 1990, in my high school, there was a Palestinian kid in my driver’s ed class. He was very unpopular because of the Iraq war, and how the palestinians sided with Saddam hussein, I befriended him, not knowing I’m Jewish, and he would go on and on about Israel, but he took it further, he said not that “We are at war with Israel” but rather “we are at war with the Jews”. He really hated Jews, and had no idea that I was Jewish. I didn’t like that, but it wasn’t the only things we would talk about during our long drives in the class.
Steve
USA
if the Israelis want to talk with the Palestinians – they can start by reading UN resolution #242.
It orders Israel to return to the 1967 borders.
-Chad (in portland)
Even from listening to the people talking on air, one can see intimidation of the Palestinians. My eyes are being opened more and more.
The Jewish woman jumped on the young man because his father was imprisoned. Then she said, in anger, that the other was angry.
Then she topped it all by saying that her only goal would be to make life tolerable for the Palestinians. I wonder if she would accept a “tolerable” life.
My question to her is: Is it possible for you to show compassion for a fellow human being for the hardship that he has suffered due to this conflict?
Great show Ros! The neutral lady is making a lot of sense.
Trying to place blame in this situation is impossible, ALL sides deserve blame, Israeli, Palestinian, Arab, and the United States. That being said, the Israeli policy of agression and manipulation, supported by the United States (if not directly, then in thier complicancy), is most responsible. After the 6 Day War the Israelis refusal to withdraw (and LBJ’s refusal to apply pressure to bring this about) dispite international pressure has created the problem. They began constructing setlements less than two weeks after the war, indicating thier “preventive strike” in that war was, if not originally, quickly developed into a land grab.
I feel for the Palestinians, the anger of the ordinary Palestinian is certainly justified. How would the United States respond if the UN decided that the Eastern Seaboard was to be returned to the American Indians?
Mason
Park City, Utah
I think each side just needs to calm there own people. It seems like once things die down, it just takes a couple idiots to start things up again. At least that’s what it looks like to me.
-Anthony, LA, CA
There’s only one way to break the deadlock and start solving the problem:
The troubles can all be reduced to “Lebensraum”. Israel must limit automatic entry of Jewish immigrants to the tiny country of Israel.
-Will, Berlin
Hau
I am amazed at the unchallenged sophistry of your Israeli supporting guests. 2 points. 1, when asked about the historical position of Israel responded that, essentially, part of Zionist vision. That is not historical precedence. 2, As to Israel’s economic viability, if it were not for US hand outs and support, Israel would not exist as a viable self-supporting nation.
I’m a dsabled American Indian veteran and I am dismayed that thousands of our best are dying to support the Israeli occupation of Palestine.
Fred
Wolakota!
(peace)
@ chad
wrong chad. This is UN 242. It means the arabs have to end their state of belligerency. THey don’t get land returned for nothing:
1. Affirms that the fulfillment of Charter principles requires the establishment of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East which should include the application of both the following principles:
(i) Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;
(ii) Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;
2. Affirms further the necessity
(a) For guaranteeing freedom of navigation through international waterways in the area;
(b) For achieving a just settlement of the refugee problem;
(c) For guaranteeing the territorial inviolability and political independence of every State in the area, through measures including the establishment of demilitarized zones;
We callled, but you said you wanted questions rather than comments. So — here’s a question: how can there be peace when both sides live apart and one side has all the power? How can they have peace when both sides have a religious belief which tells each of them that they are the owners of the (sacred land?)
WHYS:
This discussion is swinging wildly into the absurd.
If we’re going to bring the Bible into this discussion, may we remember that God drove the Israelites out of Ancient Israel, and into slavery? That would suggest that Jews have no claim to the land, God drove them out, end of discussion.
Who are Israeli’s to complain that Palestinians are angry when they try to discuss the subject? Who wouldn’t be? They lost their land, their nation. They are cut off from jobs, subject to uncounted miseries at the hand of Israel, who only knows militarism as a solution.
In all the articles I’m reading about Israel at 60, the best case scenarios for Israel see Israel melting away (Israeli-Jews interbreeding), getting voted away by it’s growing Arab majority, or surviving as an Apartheid state, with minority rule. All the rest have Israel going away more violently.
I’m tired of Palestinians being regarded as the aggressors and terrorists. They lost their land to foreigners, have been betrayed by their Mid-East bretheren, and left for nothing. I’d be angry too.
Paul
San Francisco
Have the Israelis and Palestinians EVER coexisted in peace? If so, what will it take to get back to that point. If not, then why should anyone believe that peaceful coexistence can ever be achieved!
If Jews keep sparking the fire with second-rate settlements why do they expect the flame to go out?
Perhaps other Muslims should get together and stop building tacky buildings, five-star hotels, buying Chanel and Versace and support the Palestinians with some more oil money. If Muslims can’t even get along with each other, Shias and Sunnis killing each other, etc. etc. how can they expect to get along with Jews? How can they speak with any moral authority at all.
Its just a case of dumb and dumber.
-Portland, Oregon
One must understand that when a powerful country occupies a country that does not have the ability to establish itself a sovereign national entity, the imbalance of power results in an unjust suppression of natural human rights. Palestine has not been given a chance to protect itself from daily invasions, bombing raids, assassinations, slaughters of civilians, and land grabs that all violate various tenets of international law. One should also realise that in a world where the more powerful naturally has more of an ability to voice its complaints than the less potent, the one who speaks out for the voiceless should not always be demanded to apologise for the weaker entity and condemn their violations when those violations have already been condemned by everyone else.
how can there be no anger ???
admission from israel that they are occupying a land of peoples that they displaced and abused in the process would be very helpful.
fingers are always more pointed at the wrongs of palestinians…..
AND….the dramatic way israelis emotional pain is a little overdone….
this show represent the inability of some to not empathise with the other and people need to stop being objectified and recognized as suffering human beings
marie, san francisco
This is Luciano from Brazil.
We see this conflict from a distance and the question is why the palestinians keep firing towards Israel and keep saying they are the one that are loosing.
How on earth can the Israelis say that there is no analogy between the Apartheid South Africa and the one in Israel/Palestine?
Very similar situation.
Self determination of ALL people, not of “both” people. Let’s have one person, one vote across all Israel and the occupied territories.
–brad
Hi WHYS,
My questions are:
to Israelis
How long do you expect to keep the palestians enslaved- 100, 200, 300 years? Your enslavement in Egyptl lasted 400 years but it came to an end. Don’t you expect that the palestinians will be free one day?
to palestinians
Why do you seek to win freedom by your own human efforts such as the depraved suicide bombing tactings and pathetic racket launch. Why don’t you employ the tactics of non-violent resistance? This is what Martin Luther King used successfully as your enemy’s alli – the USA.
Carlos.
I have another question : I would like to ask why the Israelis keep on building illegal settlements, which is clearly a violation of the international law. I don’t understand why, after the abhorrent otrocities commited by the Nazis, the Israelis treat the Palestinians so negatively !
Doesn’t the peace simply just start with having to autonomous states ?
Daisy
Chicago
Comment on the land … did the Jews not buy the land back during the time before 1948 ?
@ VictorK and Steve, especially.
I hear the point about the promotion of false data, especially in a news context where real information is to be dispensed – hopefully, with a view to enlightening others. However, I rather suspect that the claims of anti-semitism are just that – claims. There seems, from what I have read so far, very little reason to feel that such comments are, necessarilly, valid.
As I have noted in the past, comments have been made here which I have not been very happy with and have said as much when and where these have occurred. Steve is especially culpable in this regard. I can see very little difference between that and what has been posted here so far.
People are entitled to their opinions, as well as I did not notice where WHYS endorsed this as a factual/ institutional position. So, please explain to me the basis of your grouse?
Thanks in advance.
If you watch the Fitna video, it has footage from documentaries produced by the Palestinians, where little children would say that Jews are descended from apes and monkeys. Do you really think peace is possible when Palestinian kids are taught to hate jews from the day they are born?
Back in 1990, in my high school, there was a Palestinian kid in my driver’s ed class. He was very unpopular because of the Iraq war, and how the palestinians sided with Saddam hussein, I befriended him, not knowing I’m Jewish, and he would go on and on about Israel, but he took it further, he said not that “We are at war with Israel” but rather “we are at war with the Jews”. He really hated Jews, and had no idea that I was Jewish. I didn’t like that, but it wasn’t the only things we would talk about during our long drives in the class.
Steve
USA
Why not a land that includes everyone?
I simply cannot understand how anyone could say that this is in-solvable! I am of Northern Irish extraction, and I sincerely doubt that there exists any other people who are more hard-headed and opinionated, with a tendency towards violence. Yet something approaching a coexistance is slowly emerging in Ulster! Therefore it can be done, if there is true WILL to do so!
CJ
Amherstview, Ontario, Canada
@ Victor –
It is one thing that never seems to be addressed in all this, Victor.
After all – with a Palestinian homeland in or on top of Israel – eradicating it’s borders you have the political and cultural demise of Israel – which is what is wanted.
BTW – Syria and Jordan don’t want their Muslim brothers and sisters. Another issue that isn’t open debate – I wonder why?
George W. Bush’s feeble attempt to salvage his foreign policy legacy by forcing a peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians is not going to work. Peace MUST be possible, but it is going to take discussions with ALL sides, Jimmy Carter should be hailed as a hero for his willingness to talk to everyone who needs to be involved for a true peace. The Palestinians and Arabs must accept Israeli existence, but the Israeli’s must also acknowledge their occupation of the West Bank and Gaza was unlawful, and they must return those lands to the Palestinians, Since they will not give up Jerusalem, something needs to be done to establish an international city, under the direction of representatives of the three religions, sadly this will return us to the original UN Resolution (181) that the Palestinian Jews accepted back in 1947. .
Mason
Park City, Utah
The British sounding Israeli seems like the biggest obstacle to peace… anyone who says “far left” is most likely “far right.”
Just another question …
Why do the countries surrounding Israel keep the “refugee”camps for years and years open … And not give those arabs .. the same right as their own civilians ??
Libanon, Syria, Jordan … Egypt… all have butter on their heads…
Thank you BBC for letting us share our views and having this type of topics, you are truly a true democratic global radio station. I have been listening to BBC since I was 15. Thank you.
Now back to the topic. I am really sorry for what is happening in that region, I am a Moroccan, Muslim and independent thinker.
Let’s look at the facts, Israel was created since 1948, the Palestinians lost their territories, and now we have a war that has no end in sight. There is absolutely no way that Israel can disappear, there is no way that Palestinian can win any war against Israel, and I don’t any way for the Arab countries to come to a settlement with Israel.
My hope and it’s only a hope is to sit down for as long as it takes, to listen to the people from the little ones to the old ones, and listen to their hopes, needs, and dreams, and then have some leaders that do not have any political or religious agendas to debate the matters and reach a compromise that can satisfy both sides.
Let’s see, both political parties (Likud and labor) had a shot at solving this problem and no one was successful, both Fatah and Hamas had a shot and no one was successful at reaching a compromise with Israel. The reason is that these parties have their own political and religious agendas and as result they are not seriously trying to solve people’s (Israelis and Palestinians) problems.
It’s better to sit down for as long as it takes and try to understand each other than to keep killing each other. Many years had passed and people are still dying every day. We know for a fact that killing doesn’t solve any problem.
May God help both of them and bring them together and live together.
Peace to all.
Haas
Chicago, IL, USA
Steve, your card of ”ANTI SEMITIC” is just nonsense.
You are doing a fool cry on hollocost and doing the same thing on the Palatenians.
If israel is really intersted in peace stop the aggression and settlement extenstion. Things will fall on its way.
@ Khalid
Yup, the ISraelis are just like nazis and have death camps and are killing millions of palestinians. Yup, you’re right, I was wrong. Also the world domination thing too. How foolish of me to doubt what was written on here.
One thing I would like to pick up on was a statement made by the Israeli guy who said that Israel has a healthy and thriving economy..
Palestine, too, would have a healthy and thriving economy were it not for Israel.
Ingrid
Norway.
What would the Israelis do when eventually the Chinese become the biggest superpower? Javad London
I have heard many programs on the BBC on the Israelis and Palestinians.I felt that after getting Both parties across your table ,the conclusion was that I heard that both parties criticized & did not agree to each other & todays program was even worst with the palestine doctor ( whatever) used very aggressive languages to the israeli counter part ” I dont care if you feel bad.”
Its worth if the BBC waist their time to call leaders of both parties with a mediator to cool down & use decent languages between both parties , after all its the leaders on both sides who will make the difference & not some israeli & palestinie representative to talk on your program who have no power to take any decision to stop the fighting & live in peace & also they fear they will be called traiter by their leaders if they have to say any good against each other & critisize their leaders.
BBC should now change their policy that if only the program if going to achieve positive results to encourage more dialog program, so that it can be remembered that if this issue is finished , it’s the result of BBC & NOT the quartet countries working to solve the problem for years now.
But what I see now is BBC hosting such programs & the hatred & arragant languages used by both sides are only encouraging youngsters to be more agrevated & make more trouble.
I hope to see the fighting by both parties stop & they live peacfully, cause the root for all troubles( I will not call terrorism, cause one calls it terrorism , while the others call themselves as freedom fighters,the world terrorism is no more in my dictionary) in the world starts for a fight for a land between Israelis and Palestinians.
What would the Israelis do when eventually the Chinese become the biggest superpower? Javad London
Steve~
Bargaining chips? You mean all those thousands of people building communities on the disputed lands think of themselves and their homes as “bargaining chips” for a future peace deal?
Well, gee! How selfless of them! It’s all so much clearer now.
First of all thank you for having this discussion so openly. It is very important to the future of not only the region but the world.
Peace can only be acheived when the Israelis concede to their moral responsibility for the occupation of Palestine and accept the illegality, under international law, of the occupation. A withdrawal to the 1967 borders, including east Jerusalem, and ceasing to claim the right to control the borders, politics and economy of Palestine is the only path to peace. Israel must abide by international law and the multiple UN resolutions to this affect. Without Israeli recognition of this necessity there can be no negotiated peace. The burden of peace lies on the shoulders of the occupiers.
-Joe in Oregon
To the palestinian who said that Arabs were disposesed by Israel, what about the same amount of Jews expelled from muslim n ations at the same time? As he said “I don’t care”, will likely be his response. He’s why there won’t be peace. Too filled with hatred.
Steve
USA
@ Ingrid:
“Palestine, too, would have a healthy and thriving economy were it not for Israel.
Ingrid
Norway.”
Actually Palestine would have a healthy and thriving economy if they spent their time trying to create a nation (Palestine) instead of destroying a nation (israel). They want to destroy Israel more than they want a nation. That’s the wrong priority. But if it’s easier to blame Israel for everything, go ahead.
Israelis deserve a self defense since palestines have chose to also carryout terror attacks over innocent israelite who always seek to have peace with palestines. What palestinian do against israel isn,t just by themselves but an arab world reinforced agendas to ruin israel such that it remains arabized state. Palestines are now intruding everywhere in Sudan via Sudanese NCP support to mobilized the mujahidiin to liberated/killed Israelis. Why don,t anyone ask oneself, why do you have to destroy Israel and why are the palestine are always the caused of voilences? Why would arabs mobilized to support palestine against Israel and they are not support peace? .
Why is nobody actually looking at the FACTS.
First, history.
Fact: The West bank was ANNEXED by Jordan from 1948 to 1967. Where was “Palestine” then? “Palestinians” were Arabs who lived in the region (not nation) of Palestine. In 1948, Palestine was divided. 70% turned into the nation of Jordan (where most Palestinians live to this day), and 30% went to Israel, which was further divided. If anything, the west bank is Jordanian territory, legitimately captured in war.
Fact: Jews living in the British Mandate of Palestine, and even before in Ottoman times were also known as “Palestinians”.
Fact: While most Palestinian Arabs were urged to flee in 1948, many Palestinian Arabs, stayed behind, and are now citizens of Israel. In fact, Druze and Bedouin Arabs serve at all levels of Israeli society, including the military. There are over 1.5M Arab Israelis, the vast majority of whom enjoy a significantly higher standard of living than in surrounding Arab countries. Having been to East Jerusalem, Haifa, Akko in Israel, and Cairo and Amman, I’ve seen this with my own eyes.
Fact: Gaza was “occupied” by Egypt from 1948 to 1967. Nobody WANTS Gaza..in fact, Israel is glad to give it back. If only they would stop launching terrorist attacks and rockets from there, the restrictions would cease.
Question:
Name ONE nation, victorious in war, that was ever required to give “land for piece”. Not one. Should the US “give back” Texas to Mexico? or Manhatten Island to the Indians for that matter?
Question:
Why, after 5 generations, have the “refugees” not been resettled anywhere in the Arab world? From 1948-1967, over 800,000 Jewish refugees, deported from Arab nations were absorbed into Israel. Why have the other Arab nations not absorbed the Palestinian Arabs? Jordan for example is 85% Palestinian Arab, with a small Hashemite ruling elite that BRUTALLY represses any dissent (see Black September) for one example.
Hello all.
I wonder if in today’s world we had just discovered “the new world”. Would the Europeans have so easily colonized the North American continent if they had the rest of the world watching them? Would the “Native Americans” have some of the same arguments that the Palestinian’s use today. Would the colonist have some of the same ones that Israelis have today? (The one about your ancestors living there 3000 years ago is a moot point. They left that long they loose their claim.)
If I understand things right, the Jews started migrating at the end of the 19th century to what is now Israel. That “illegal minority” eventually got so big that they weren’t a minority any longer. The Palestinians tried to control their population, but too late. The Jewish community had grown too strong and too entrenched. A struggle between the cultures erupted and the Jews won one for once. They had much help from the Europeans who certainly didn’t want them to return back to europe. Eventually the Europeans gave the Jews their own country as long as they promised not to come back to Europe. Israel turned to Palestine and said, “You lost, we are here to stay, get used to it or we will finish you off.” The Palestinians along with some very economically powerful (thanks to the new world drug, Oil.) members of the Middle East, said, “Not so fast, you are on OUR land and now that your European buddies are hooked on our oil, we are not going away with out a fight.”
That is where we are today. The US and Europe hold Israel back from turning Palestinian lands into ceremonial Casinos because the US needs to appease the Saudi’s and other key Mid East players. The Palestinians want the impossible, all of Israel to pack up and go anywhere else. They are willing to go to insane lengths to get their wish. Meanwhile their generations are growing up each more hungry, uneducated, and spiteful of the Israelis.
Am I close?
Now for the present:
Let us take a look at the Israeli reaction, and try to judge Israel by normal US, or European standards, shall we?
What would the US do if a native american tribe decided to smuggle heavy weapons into their reservation, and start firing rockets at major US cities….do I even need to expand on this?
What did the US do in the 1990s, during the LA gang riots? Oh yes, they sent in the national guard, with tanks and APCs.
What would an EU nation..say, France, do if people started rioting in the streets, burning cars, destroying property, and attacking police? Oh wait, that happened already, and they sent in the riot police. I wonder what would have happened if the Arab gangs in the Banlieus had been shooting AK47s at the French cops, who are, after all, noted for their restraint *cough*.
Perhaps a British style population transfer is in order? How many hundreds of thousands died when Britain decided to split Pakistan from India?
The analogies are endless. The simple question to ask is: What would ANY Western democracy do if heavily armed gangs of civilians started throwing stones, sniping, firing assault weapons, rockets and mortars off. They would send in their national guard, or riot police to brutally surpress the problem.
If anything, Israel has been far too lenient. Look back in history for what has been done to surpress rebellion and revolt.
I GUARANTEE that Hosni Mubarak, Sadaam Hussein, Hafez Assad etc, have killed far, far more Muslims than the government of Israel in surpressing dissent and revolt. I won’t even talk about the atrocity of Darfur, with over 1 Million Muslims murdered by other Muslims.
Why is Israel judged by such hypocritical standards? And, lets not forget, this entire mess was caused by Britain in the first place, carving up the middle east along geographic boundaries without regard to tribal culture.
One thing I am unable to understand why USA & EU are feared to address core issues, they might know in principal they are wrong.
An unsupportive behaviour of USA & EU with Isriel & India can play a vital role in achieving peace.
Conteminated media along with corrupt politicians are playing with human lifes even ballot power been used & abused in the past along with hopeless future & help less victoms i.e general public.
Violence begets violence. We are all born with wonderfully open, clean minds, and then the brainwashing starts: First: a language, second: a religion, third: a nationality, fourth: a history. Children are forced to wear little labels: “Israeli”, “Palestinian”, “Jew”, “Muslim”,
“Christian”. Children are forced to believe that it is people who wear the same labels as they who are the Great Victims of history, the ones who must be avenged. In Yugoslavia Milosevic specialised in getting Serbs to swallow victim status, so that they would commit shocking acts of cruelty in the belief that they were avenging past deeds. But the Croats, Kosovan Albanians, Slovenians and Bosnian Muslims – all cherished and cultivated their own victim status, ramming it into children’s heads. And once the children have been programmed and wear their labels proudly and unquestioningly, once their hearts have been filled with poison brewed and nurtured over the centuries, then they can be given bombs and machine guns. And sent out to play.
Dwight,
While Jews had been migrating starting from the 19th century, there was ALWAYS a continuous Jewish presence in Israel (Palestine). One has to look at the history of the region to understand that this area was Jewish until conquered by the Romans, then the Arabs, then the Ottoman Empire (which sold much of the land, legally to the Jewish Agency). Finally after WWI, the British took control of the Mandate, which included present day Jordan. The point however, is that there has been a CONTINUOUS Jewish presence there for over 4000 years.
Mark,
You’re absolutely right. To get a good example of this, look for Hamas TV on Youtube. Farfur the mouse is particularly revealing. Palestinian children’s TV in general is completely shocking, if you view the translations, and should be viewed by anyone who remotely claims the Palestinians are interested in “peace”
both israel and palestine are guilty of crimes but sadly, ” the conquered should know when they are conquered”. religion and extreme idealism makes them blind, zeleous and slaves to their cause. if you cant make peace, join or reason with your enemy/conqueror then move and start a life elsewhere, But if your beliefs, ideals or religion makes you stay and fight an unwinnable war, then you and your generations will continue to die, live in poverty, ignorance and slavery. The reality is two religions are at war, two gods with their people laying claim to the land. After many centuries the exiled Jews have returned to their homeland to find they are not welcomed.
@ Dan, with the exception of the native Americans, all of the other examples are cases where the traditional inhabitants of the land would be fending of a immigrating population. I have parents older then Israel. I have grandparents who have been around longer then the Second Aliyah (migration of the Jews to Palestine region), and I have known family members who have been around during the First Aliyah. I can only assume there are people in both Israel and Palestine that have the same claim. What has happened there would be like if the whole world got together and said to the South Americans, “You have native ancestry in the U.S. The land is your now.” Then the 20 million Illegal immigrants, more squatters and however many million legal immigrants stood up and started booting us off our land. To help out they got supplied weapons from some alien force with technology that makes ours look like slingshots and catapults. Do you think we would be garnishing help from anybody who would grant it. I know I would start lobbing bombs at whatever target I could find.
Israel became a state in 1945. The people there lobbing bombs are not some thousand year old distant could be relatives, like most feuds in that region. They are the people who got booted from the land as children.
Now that said, I am a Darwinist at heart. Somehow the Palestinians ended up drawing the shortest straw in the evolutionary chain. I would love to appeal to the Jews religious side to try to stop them from inevitably crushing Palestine. However they are Jewish. That means they don’t believe that Jesus came to save humanity and brought a “new way” of forgiveness, tolerance, and peace. They still believe in the God of the floods, Babylon, and plagues that kills millions at an angry whim. They think they are his “chosen people”. The best I can do is try to petition my own government into not supporting such contradictions in morality. But nobody has been able to keep the US from going to their box seats at that dog fight yet, and I doubt they ever will.
What I was saying is that if the world didn’t have the ability to see what everybody is doing, the Israelis would have preformed genocide on the Palestinians already. If anything maybe we should let them do it before too many players in the middle east get nuclear weapons. Unfortunately the world is still run by animals. Every now ant then a cute little baby seal gets eaten alive by cute little baby polar bear cubs. That is nature.
I agree with the Palestinian psychologist is mostly right on this issue.
This issue is never going to get resolved until the occupiers
acknowledge that something happened in 1948 that caused millions of
Palestinians to lose the land, homes, and livelihood – not through their
own decision, nor their fault! To resolve this issue Israel will have to
acknowledge that a crime was committed against those millions, and
something has to be done to try to rectify it. A Palestinian homeland
AND reparations for the displaced is what’s needed. The Palestinians are
doing no more, nor no less than any of us around the world would do
facing the same circumstances. Giving a fair deal, the Palestinians will
respond.
Jonas
San Francisco
For all panel members – this is a great discussion – one thing I
notice is that there is a lot of asking WHY of each other about things
that you were not directly involved in – asking why often causes us to
try and justify a position/action/statement – this is really difficult
when you are not the originator of the particular position/action/
statement – may help the discussion if the focus could shift from why
to:
– what caused…
– how did this come about…
– what can we do…
Thanks so much!
Lynn listening via KALW in San Francisco
I wonder if the same conversations would be going on here in the states if the Native American’s were around when the internt, Global TV, and World awareess that we have today was taking place then?
Dwight
Lord of logic
When the world community takes responsibility for the dispossessing the Palestinians of their land and confronts the racist basis of the Israeli state.
The human rights of both peoples is essential in order to resolve the conflict within a framework of international and humanitarian law.
Janfrie
I recall
“We (the Palestinians) are the only people on Earth asked to guarantee the security of our occupier …. while Israel is the only country that calls for defense from its victims ..” Hanan Ashrawi
i REALLY believe , and many better learned than i, historians also believe that israel wants to take over ALL of palestine…
i work in acute care psychiatry and one of the main approach in crisis is ” start where you are”..
history has to be admitted to and then put behind after each, make amends
marie
san francisco
Take your pick…
1) If justification for Israel is that the Jews were in Israel 3000 years ago, then do the American Indians have the right to take back their land? The Mexicans to take back California? Where does that line get drawn, that ends the claim for land based on people who were there once, but no longer?
2) What would a solution look like geographically, politically according to the Palestinians? What “final resolution” would be considered acceptable, allowing both Israelis and Palestinians to live in peace?
3) Why is it that only the United States and Israel have voted against the UN Resolutions regarding Israel and Palestine?
Everyone has had a history of racism and a conflict with another country, yet everyone has evolved. Why can’t these two countries evolve? It’s not a fact at looking in the past, it’s looking toward the future. It’s petty to say you kicked me first, so now I’ll kick you back.
Allan, Ohio.
Israel WAS a direct result of the Holocaust. Even though the Zionist movement dates back to the late 19th century, international support for the establishment of a Jewish state would not have solidified if it were not for the western guilt and horror of the Holocaust. The Balfour declaration had established British support for the creation of a Jewish state, but subsequent white papers had severely backtracked on this promise, the Holocaust changed everything. As a basic political manuver the establishment of Israel was truly unprecidented. Returning land to a group of people who had been expelled from that land almost 2000 years before could only have taken a horrible event, and the subsiquent guilt caused by the holocaust.
Mason
Park City, Utah
What happend in 1948 was the fault of teh arabs. They invaded. If the
arabs didn’t invade, there would have been a palestine in 1948. your
“arab brothers” occupied gaza and the WB for 19 years after they invaded
and didn’t give you a state, yet you blame the Jews. Look in the mirror,
that’s why you don’t have a country. He wants israel to be destroyed. He
is why there will never be peace. He was taught to hate from the day he
was born.
Steve
USA
My name is Stephen and I live on the Oregon Coast. In this country, it seems that you cannot criticize the Israeli government no matter what they do (you are labeled as an anti-Semite).
Is this prevalent in the rest of the world, and how can we get over this? The Israelis are as guilty as the Palestinians – they are starving and killing civilians and need to be held accountable.
Thank you.
i am sure the palestinians would love to exchange their poor little rockets for the helicopters, tanks, guns that israel uses against them….
this whole thing is the classic “blame the victim’ scenario..
HOW ABOUT RACHEL COREY??? WHAT WAS SHE DOING ????
marie
san francisco
A solution:
One Truly Democratic State with equal rights for everyone!
Tom, San Francisco
Did the Jews displace the Palestinians, or did the Arab nations induce them to give up their land with false promises of liberation?
What I do not hear from each of your guest is the acceptance of each others points of view. Each point of view is legitimate to each individual. Everyones interpretation of their history and events is correct for them. Peace cannot happen until all recognise and acknowledge this.
Sheryl in Beaverton Oregon
Hi,
I am a listener from Virginia, USA. I’d like the Palestinian who refuses to recognize the right of Israel to exist and yet hopes that this will be resolved one day to elaborate exactly how the recognition he seeks should take place .. he is a bit vague on exactly how the recognition should take place or how both sides should live together.
Thanks
Victor
I would like to hear one of the Israelis answer this question: what would happen if in a generation from now the same process by which Israel was established was used for the establishment of a Palestinian state on the same land. If it was justified 60 years ago would it be justified in the opposite case in the future?
If it can not be acceptible in the future, why was it acceptible in the past?
My name is Juan Angel from Buenos Aires Argentina, I would like to ask to the two persons from Israel, Is the ocupation and the building of settlements in Palestinian territory a policy of the State of Israel or not.After the answer I think that would be clear many points. thank you
So the question is, How do they live together?
They both claim the same land, So they really need to figure out how
to live together on that same land.
Unfortunately, Israel has been set up as a “Jewish State”. By
definition, exclusionary to non jews.
(Interesting that the US is always “Alarmed” my Islamic States, but
finds no problem with Israel.)
This is Israel’s argument on why the Palestinian’s can not have a
right of return to the land they have been forced off.
If Israel was not a Jewish State, meaning that Palestinians could move
back into their land, and Democracy could start with both people’s on
the same land.
Democracy, what a concept.
Bert
Vancouver WA, USA
I really wish each of your participants would allow one another to
finish his or her comment rather than talking over and talking down
one another. The so-called conversation is certainly no a dialog but
rather reflects in speech the state of affairs in Palestine: power
overcoming power without true respect.
Nevitt
Austin, TX
listening at KUT
The professor is not being heard, he makes a good case!
Felix
There are too many powerfull people in the USA who do not want a viable Palestinian state.
US aid could be linked to a settelment.
Cormac,
California
The same resolution that created the State of Israel also created a homeland for the Palestinians. Perhaps if they had spent 60 years building a nation for themselves rather than attempting to destroy ours, they would be as successful as we are.
Mauricio
East Hanover, NJ
Where is the Arab leadership on this issue? it seems that the greatest asset that regimes such as Saudi Arabia has is their ability to continue to use the conflict as a distraction from the way they run their country. in many ways, the worst thing that could happen to the Saudi’s is for there to be peace between the Israelis & the Palestinians.
patrick
indianapolis
I want to echo the American lady who called and asked why they can’t suck it up and comprimise. There was a country started in the middle of someone else’s country. That is enough to make anyone mad, but it happened before most of us were even born. Tell them both to just work things out as they are.
I think they do need the argument, it has seemed to begin to define the lives of those on both sides. they wouldnt know what to do without the conflict.
Aaron
Portland, OR
DOES THE NAZI CLEANSING OF JEWS FROM EUROPE JUSTIFY THE ZIONIST
CLEANSING OF PALESTINIANS FROM PALESTINE ?
ISRAEL DOES NOT WANT PEACE. THEY WANT PALESTINE TO CEASE TO EXIST.
ISRAEL HAS STEADFASTLY TORMENTED THE PALESTINIANS AND CONDEMNED THEM AS
TERRORISTS WHEN THEY FOUGHT BACK.
NO MORE SYMPATHY FOR ZION
BLAZES
I am always dismayed over the Israeli-Hamas issue. I believe Hamas holds the key to peace. Can they not exercise unilateral restraint? I am sure Israel hold back.
Elton, Monrovia, Liberia
Hi, i like Isreal, but the best peacefull way is for Isreal to stop occupation, invasions and the rest will fall in line. Even animals in zoos will always try to get their way out, of course not in peaceful way.
From James. Northern Uganda
Hello,
You have to think about a better way to keep order in those discussions, which tend to get very ugly too often.
Regards,
Tsvetan
I sympathize for the deaths of the civilians. But Hamaas has to stop
the rocket attack. Stop the rockets and Israel too will stop their
attacks. Why is Hamaas attacking the trucks delivering fuel to Gaza?
Mathew, USA.
dear Rose Atkins, its only GOD who can solve the conflicts between israeli and palenstinian since both have a common ancestral origin.
JONAH – NAIROBI, KENYA
I don’t propose to know a great deal about this issue but it seems fundamentally wrong to me that the answer to the violence, whether on the part of the Palestinians or the Israelis, is more violence. That would seem to me to be a very clear reason as to why there is this much turmoil between the two peoples/ countries.
Indeed, the Jews have every right to their pain, but so too do the Palestinians over their occuppied lands in the Gaza Strip. I was appalled to learn on the BBC that a young man recently died of a curable disease because the Israeli army officials would not allow him to leave because of the occupation and did not seem to see where his family’s request to leave to seek medical treatment – either in Jordan or Egypt, was justified. This type of strong man posture is, at heart, a serious part of what builds the bad blood on either sides. In addition to what appears to be Israel’s unrelenting position that it is always right.
The Palestinians “need to spend time building their nation” (Steve) but so too do the Israeli’s need to work at achieving peace in a more committed way than happens at present. The “Road Map to Peace” has obviously not worked as here we are still even after much hoopla about that, years later. I rather suspect that the tallying of past crimes on either side is an untenable state of affairs and one which does nothing to further the peace process.
The Palestinians, obviously, cannot win the physical victory, epecially by with their significantly smaller and less powerful fighting machinery; that is, in comparison with Israel’s. However, it remains to be seen whether theirs is only a physical fight intended to rout Israel from the occupied territory. How much of their persistence in the form of the Hamas lead hostilities is about evoking the world’s conscience?
@ Blazes
Implying that israel is committing genocide, eh? Whatever… Israel wants palestine to cease to exist? Kinda difficult given that a Palestine has never independently existed in history, but I wouldn’t want to confuse you with facts. Please, go on continuing to compare Israel to the nazis, and make a fool. Only your fellow antisemites will pat you on the back.
Jumping into the fray. Is less filtering and monitoring how WHYS is responding to a poster’s charge made on last weekends’ blank page that WHYS shows pro-Israel, anti-Palestinian bias in its filtering and monitoring functions? If so, don’t be surprised if those with a different perception of the Israel-Palestine issue choose to mount a similar, non-fact -based emotional attack on the Islamic world. That’s not a good dog to unleash.
Why are Palestinian claims picked up by the media as if they were gospel?
Why are assumptions made that the Palestinians are suffering like no other people on earth? Why are their false claims taken at face value and not examined closely by professional reporters and journalists?
Let me give just one example. (I have many).
You have heard that the Gaza Strip is the most densely populated area on earth, leaving Palestinians living in inhuman condition.
The truth is that the Palestinian population in the Gaza Strip is 4200 people per square kilometre, by the most exaggerated estimate.
Both Singapore and Hong Kong have more than 6000 people per square kilometre.
London has 5100. Moscow 4900, Tokyo 4750. All far more than the Gaza Strip.
Even Tel Aviv has more than 5000 people per square kilometre.
My point is to please check, and double check, all Palestinian claims of suffering.
Sure there is a conflict. From my perspective caused primarily by the Palestinian leadership.
However, look at the facts. Examine the truth, and you will find that, put in proper
proportion the Palestinian lot is not as bad as they make out.
It can be made a lot better. Let them truly give up the Hamas creed of wishing to destroy the ‘Jewish and Zionist entity.’ This will never happen.
Its time for Israelis and Palestinians to think big and become Middle Easterners. I used to be Bangladeshi, Pakistani, Indian until I raised my intellect and became an Asian. Take it from me, it is liberating.
Israel is not now committing genocide.
It IS following a religio/ethnic ideology and government-implemented policy of ethnic cleansing.
The many Israeli peace groups claim a majority of the population and give evidence that this government policy is NOT the policy of all Israelis.
Unfortunately, the structure of Israeli politics gives great voice to fundamentalist extremists.
Hearing from more Israeli peace groups might aid those would would seek a just solution.
Unfortunately, the structure of Israeli politics gives great voice to fundamentalist extremists.
Hearing from more Israeli peace groups might aid those would would seek a just solution.
————————————–
— There can be no peace as long as Palestinians as a whole support terrorists.
They need to blame themselves for their miserable status since 2000. They had the best economy and education of any of the non oil producing middle eastern groups, AND peaceful AND cooperative AND business relations with Israel with much freedom of movement.
What happened? Everyone wants to blame Sharon for showing up at the Temple Mount as was his right, but it was the Palestinians who rioted and restarted the infitada, destroying all the substantial progress and agreements since 1993, and indeed, the peace process itself. No country can substain repeated suicide bombing attacks on it without implementing defensive measures.
Indeed, Bin Laden was forefront in praising the restart of the Infitada, taking heart in advance of his wave of suicide bombers wrecking havoc around the world.
I keep hearing the usual suspects wanting a return to 1967 borders as a condition for a “truce,” but that ain’t ever going to happen any more than Islamic nations will provide guarantees to the right of repatriation and reparations to all the Jews, Christians, and other minority religions who have had to flee these lands. National Geographic demographics show there have been close to a million Jewish refugees from North Africa and middle eastern countries who sought refuge in Israel since 1948 alone.
Until credible Palestinian leadership emerges, which is not likely until the Islamic reformation and civil war is over, the conflict remains. May take a century or two and US presidents only seeking legacy trying to strongarm the peace process have only exacerbated it, specifically Clinton and Bush.
Yeah, Sharon’s “crime” that started the 2nd Intifada was Sharon visiting the holiest site in Judaism. How terrible of him! If you use any excuse to use violence and to kill people, then perhaps the problem is with you. Should Jews kill muslims world wide because muslims go to the qa’ba in Mecca, their holiest site? Of course not. Stop making excuses to hate and kill, and stop teaching hatred to your kids from the day they are born.
Steve said: “Kinda difficult given that a Palestine has never independently existed in history, but I wouldn’t want to confuse you with facts.”
Is it a fact that people lost their homes when the state of Israel was created?
This is a situation where facts don’t amount to a hill of beans. Does it really matter whether Palestinian existed as a country or a state or whatever?
If one single person was displaced, then that matters!
Until the debate stops and we get to the real issue, which is the suffering of people, there will never be an end to this foolishness.