07
Oct
08

Talking Points 8th October and live reaction to the US Presidential debate

We’re doing WHYS from a Gypsy site just outside London in England tomorrow, here is the link to the page if you want to get involved or send us your questions. But in the meantime Will in Canada is hosting the global discussion and live reaction from the second Presidential debate


199 Responses to “Talking Points 8th October and live reaction to the US Presidential debate”


  1. October 7, 2008 at 19:23

    Good afternoon/evening/morning.

    Please feel free to add the stories that you want to talk about. The page, today, is split into two because as we know there is the second presidential debate tonight – I can foresee that the debate will take off because many of us will be watching it.

    Please don’t let that deter you from having your say…and with that….over to you.

  2. October 7, 2008 at 19:33

    Political correctness gone too far?

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/7656578.stm

    Comedian Harry Enfield’s BBC show has been labelled “disgraceful and distasteful” by members of the Philippine community in the UK.

    A petition has been launched condemning the Harry And Paul show for a sketch in which one man urged another to “mount” a Filipina maid.

    The scene, first broadcast on 26 September, was part of a running joke in which a family from the south of England treats a northern man like a pet dog.

    “Our chums up the road wanted to see if they could mate their Filipino maid with our northerner,” said Enfield’s character as the maid danced provocatively in his garden.

  3. October 7, 2008 at 19:35

    Now take into account – I am a Northerner and I wouldn’t take offence.

  4. 5 Robert
    October 7, 2008 at 19:39

    Looks like science and not just religion is now forecasting the end of evolution.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?view=DETAILS&grid=&xml=/earth/2008/10/07/scievolution107.xml

  5. October 7, 2008 at 19:48

    Good morning/afternoon or evening

    Well, Iam a Nigerian with our impending avanlanche of problems but Iam more bother about US present economic crisis.
    In my view, American polities is turning more of a negative polities rather than
    politics of constructive policies and ideas, please my advice to the republicans is to forget the polities of smearing and concentrate on solutions that will avert reccession.
    If these things should continued unabated we may experience lots of turbulence that may be in favour of China and Russia(economic perspective)

  6. October 7, 2008 at 19:50

    Kenya ‘will deport’ Obama author

    Immigration authorities in Kenya say they will deport the American author of a highly critical book about US presidential candidate Barack Obama.

    The author, Jerome Corsi, was in Kenya to launch his book which accuses Mr Obama of supporting an alleged plot to turn Kenya into an Islamic state.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7656546.stm

  7. 8 Dennis@OCC
    October 7, 2008 at 19:53

    @ Will,
    Thanks for being the “host”…..

    For the interest of full disclosure: I will be watching the U.S. PRESIDENTIAL
    DEBATE live on U.S. television for 2 classes…..

    And i will offer my talking points for the WHYS….Afterwards….

    **********
    Since most of the WHYS friends, are not from the United
    States, I would like to ask this question?
    *What issues would you like to know? i.e. Iraq, Economy and etc.

    Dennis

  8. 9 Robert
    October 7, 2008 at 19:56

    I’m with you. I’m an expatriated Northerner and don’t find it at a cause for insult. I wouldn’t find it funny as I don’t like Enfield but I don’t know anybody from back home who would find something like this offensive.

    This seems to be an extension of the compensation culture rather than PC (which would be holding back something you thought would cause offensive to others, not complaining about offense to you, but that distinction is a fine one perhaps only I use). If you can appear to be the victim of some wrong then you can claim some privilege as compensation. The compensation here would be getting a mighty western media company to apologies, playing into somebodies political agenda the other side of the world.

  9. 10 Dennis@OCC
    October 7, 2008 at 20:00

    @ Will,

    I am having a problem with my computer, Could you please erase
    the message at 7.59PM…..

    I was typing a message…it was to your post about KENYA DEPORTING THE “WRITER”

    *Could you send me a email* ….

    Thanks,
    Dennis

  10. October 7, 2008 at 20:03

    Good morning/afternoon/evening

    My dear Sarah Palins,please we should not use tactics to win elections but good implementable policies that will project America to its lost glory. Gender issue is totally out of this race.
    Bring out your policies that will restore US economy woes,global peace, American leadership of concent (Big Brother Role) and harmonious international relation then elctoarte will flock to vote for you not gender issues.
    Good luck and God bless Nigeria.

  11. 12 Dennis@OCC
    October 7, 2008 at 20:22

    RACE IN THE U.S. PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE!

    Is here and for everyone consumption….

    The story is on the BBC Website….

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/AMERICAS/7656382.stm

    Here is my opinion: It is very sad, that race is still in the
    United States after many years, i am not writing the number,
    since i was busy this moment…

    Dennis

  12. 13 Dennis@OCC
    October 7, 2008 at 20:27

    in case, will did not put the time of the presidential debate:

    i am copying this from the bbc news website:

    Watch the second presidential debate live from Nashville, Tennessee from 0100 GMT

    Dennis

  13. 14 Shaun in Halifax
    October 7, 2008 at 20:30

    @ Robert

    I’m working on an assignment that runs parallel with what we were talking about last night, and I was wondering if I could borrow (read: steal) your idea about the bonus structure to force traders and their managers to think in the long term?

  14. 15 Shaun in Halifax
    October 7, 2008 at 20:36

    You guys get it easy… do you guys have any idea how hard it is to be America’s northern neighbour? According to the Yanks, we live in igloos (with central heating, no less), get only 3 months of sun a year, the snow never melts, and (my personal favorite I got from an Alaskan) “Canada is so much colder than Alaska, b/c it’s so much farther north.”

    When people get offended by something that’s clearly in jest and with tongue firmly in cheek, I’m always wondering what sort of insecurities they have that makes them react so virulently to the satire. And it’s not even for things said in jest. We’re so afraid of being called bigots, racists, anti-semites or sexist that we self-censor ourselves. For example: let’s say I was a public figure and I said something innocent like “I believe the Palestinians might have some legitimate issues with the way Israel handles itself in that part of the world.” It’s a statement, and probably a true one at that. However I’d bet my yearly wage that within 1/2 an hour of that sentence coming out of my mouth I’m being called an anti-semite. Then 45 mins later I’m Hitler. Why is that?

  15. October 7, 2008 at 20:37

    Esquire Names Halle Berry ‘Sexiest Woman Alive’

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,433902,00.html

    Agree? Or disagree? Interesting pick, though.

  16. 17 Anthony
    October 7, 2008 at 20:40

    I’m not gonna watch the debate. I don’t think it’s gonna be any different from the last one. Here’s a preview:

    Obama: “We need change!”
    McCain: “Yes, and we need a Maverick to do it!”
    Obama: “But you voted with Bush over 90% of the time, thats not change!”
    McCain: “Well, you were against ‘The Surge’ with Bush, and it worked!”
    Obama: “Well, we shouldn’t have gone in there in the first place!”
    McCain: “Oh yeah, well….you said you’d meet with ‘Rouge Leaders’ without pre-conditions! I WAS A P.O.W., MAVERICK MAVERICK!!!”

    There you go. No need to watch.

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  17. 18 Julie P
    October 7, 2008 at 20:40

    “Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said Monday the road for the U.S. in Iraq has been “harder, longer, and more difficult than I personally imagined” and warned that despite some recent progress, success in Iraq is “not a sure thing.””

    http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/06/rice.iraq/index.html

  18. 19 Robert
    October 7, 2008 at 20:44

    Shaun feel free to use it.

  19. 20 Shaun in Halifax
    October 7, 2008 at 20:49

    Robert, Thanks!

  20. 21 Shaun in Halifax
    October 7, 2008 at 20:53

    @ Anthony

    Good synopsis, but I believe you forgot a few lines:

    Obama: “I know you are, but what am I?”
    McCain: “I’m rubber, and you’re glue. Whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you!”
    Obama: “Oh yeah?! Hello? Hello? Kettle? This is pot calling. Guess what, you’re black!”
    McCain: “Sticks and stones can break my bones but names will never hurt me.”
    Obama: “Lalalalalalala I can’t hear you because you’re old lalalalala”

    *slap fight ensues*

  21. 22 Savane, Nairobi
    October 7, 2008 at 20:58

    On Jerome Corsi’s book:

    Corsi’s being deported because of what he said about Kenya’s Prime Minister, and NOT because of Obama.

    I don’t subscribe to smear campaigns. It comes across (to me) as “My candidate doesn’t have any positive qualities to make him the better candidate for President, so I’ll trash his opponent instead!”

    Corsi’s promotion of his anti-Muslim sentiments perpetuates the myth that Islam = terrorism. He’s entitled to his opinions, but opinions are not always based on facts!

    I wonder if he’d have had anti-Catholic sentiments because of the IRA during JFK’s presidential campaign and presidency!

  22. 23 Robert
    October 7, 2008 at 21:21

    Shaun

    First to all, this is not directed at anybody on this blog and it is not intended to be an accusation against anybody. It is just a general perception I’ve encountered with similar issues in the past (the most common insult in the British scene I found being the left comparing opponents to Maggie Thatcher.)

    You’ve be called Hitler because it is an easy insult to through at somebody or negates the need to form a real world opinion.

    Some will call you Hitler and oppose you because they can not be bothered to research. They assume that because he was a bad man that any view he held is bad as well. In one swoop they have an opinion on anything you say, and it will be negative.

    Some will call you Hitler because they have done some research and have an opinion opposite yours. But when arguing to those less informed it is easier to use the previously mentioned tactic to cloud an issue than risk the chance of somebody siding with you. They think they can use a single word to summarize a very complex issue.

  23. 24 Jennifer
    October 7, 2008 at 21:25

    Re: Halle Berry-Sexiest Woman Alive

    Very interesting….I don’t agree but mostly because I have heard in the past that she does not have the nicest attitude.

  24. 25 Dennis@OCC
    October 7, 2008 at 21:42

    Re: HALLE BERRY, Sexiest Woman Alive

    Maybe in a good day, with all due respect…She is a beautiful
    woman alive..

    Dennis

  25. 26 Anthony
    October 7, 2008 at 21:43

    Re: Halle Berry-Sexiest Woman Alive

    All I need to say is Megan Fox, Megan Fox, and Megan Fox!!! By far, plus she’s SOOOO down to Earth!!!

    -Anthony, LA, CA

    P.S. Don’t forget , this is Megan Foxtober, so decorate your computer with her pics for all of October 🙂

  26. October 7, 2008 at 21:44

    What I would like to see, though I know I won’t, is for Obama to come out on stage Look McCain straight in the eye and say, “Do you think that I am a terrorist or any variety of a terrorist or any connotation of one as suggested by the “pallin around” comment. No politics, yes or no?” If McCain says “no”, then have him explain why he is allowing that message to be distributed on the campaign trail? If he says yes, Obama should thank the moderator, turn to John and say, “Here is a lesson you guys on the right haven’t learned yet. If you inaccurately and aggressively mislabel somebody, they will refuse to talk to you.” Then just leave the stage and never come back until John apologizes. Obama is winning. He has nothing to gain by the debate, and it will show he is ready to be a tough negotiator.

  27. 28 Robert
    October 7, 2008 at 21:45

    The British bail out. But instead of buying the bad loans at an inflated price the taxpayer gets to buy cheap shares in the bank. Hopefully IF this is enough to save them we make a decent profit in a few years time.

    http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/economics/article4902837.ece

  28. October 7, 2008 at 21:56

    Robert~

    Reductio ad Hitlerum

    (From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

    Reductio ad Hitlerum…is a modern informal fallacy in logic. It is a variety of both questionable cause and association fallacy. The phrase reductio ad Hitlerum was coined by an academic ethicist, Leo Strauss, in 1953. Engaging in this fallacy is sometimes known as playing the Nazi card.

  29. 31 Robert
    October 7, 2008 at 21:59

    Perhaps the most useful piece of software ever to be invented.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/oct/07/google.email

  30. 32 Jamily5
    October 7, 2008 at 22:05

    Will’s article on PC:
    Personally, I would not find that kind of humor funny and would be a bit offended.
    But, drawing attention to the show just might make people watch it more.
    So, I’d quietly turn off the set and urge anyone in my circle of friends to do the same.
    There is lots of humor that I don’t like and find personally offensive.
    I just don’t watch it.

  31. 33 Robert
    October 7, 2008 at 22:06

    Mike

    I didn’t know it had a fancy name. I guess it’s a sign that the argument is used often enough that it needs to be formalized recognized.

  32. 34 Jennifer
    October 7, 2008 at 22:40

    @ Robert

    Re: Google mail goggles software

    I think it’s handy. I wonder if it would just work on weekends or what? It may be needed on blogs! 😀 I am going to get a gmail account just to try it out. 😀

  33. 35 Roberto
    October 7, 2008 at 23:31

    Looks like science and not just religion is now forecasting the end of evolution.
    ——————————————————————————————————

    —– Heard that report on the beeb early this AM.

    That evolution spokesman was complete pants. His explanation of skin color differences is laughable, and the notion that if evolution ain’t working in your favor it must not be evolution any more is ridiculous.

    Typical evolution flow chart always shows man in ascendency, a holdover from religious theory that scientists are loathe to admit, when in fact man could well be in descendency if one follows daily rehensible news stories.

    He did straighten out a few commonly added on homiles often attributed to Darwin like the notion of “survival of the fittest” which is a term Darwin never used.

  34. 36 Luz Ma from Mexico
    October 7, 2008 at 23:34

    @Google mail goggles software
    LOL! That is a good application…

  35. 37 Roberto
    October 7, 2008 at 23:42

    RE “” Then 45 mins later I’m Hitler. “”
    ——————————————————————————————–

    ——— Wait, Palestinians say Israelis are Hitler Nazis.

    I say Hitler was really Shicklegruber and Ringo was the walrus. Lots have been Batman and The Riddler.

    Now, if McCain is Maverick and Obama is Osama, would that make Dick Cheney the Bionic Man?

  36. October 7, 2008 at 23:50

    How about this for keeping your kids safe on the road?

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7656602.stm

    Cars could soon come with parental controls that limit what younger drivers can do with a vehicle.

    Developed by Ford, the MyKey system limits a car’s top speed, how loud its stereo can be and sounds warnings if seatbelts are not being worn.

    Ford will introduce the controls on some US makes of car that are due to debut in 2009 but go on sale in 2010.

    The Ford Focus will be the first to have MyKey, but the car maker said it would become a standard feature.

  37. 39 Julie P
    October 8, 2008 at 00:11

    Portland teen hopes webcam can nab Obama sign thief after two of his Obama/Biden lawn signs are stolen. Teen is now getting international attention, which he never expected. He just wanted to catch the thief.

    http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_100608_news_sign_webcam.e9b2bfd4.html

  38. 40 Julie P
    October 8, 2008 at 00:28

    Jonathon, when I saw this I thought of you, so this comment’s just for you!

    http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2008/10/07/miller.in.woman.rescued.wish

    Rescued from an exploding car.

  39. 41 Bryan
    October 8, 2008 at 01:09

    Shaun in Halifax October 7, 2008 at 8:36 pm,

    I doubt whether anyone would call you Hitler for making such a mild remark questioning Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians. Has this ever happened to you?
    Certainly there wont be too many Jewish people making such a dumb comparison simply because Jews know what Hitler was.

    Funny thing is, when I came onto this blog a few months ago, one of the first comments I saw contained the accusation that the Israelis were Nazis. There it was, just out of the blue and not part of any debate. Only someone who knows little about the Israelis and less about the Nazis could make such a remark.

  40. 42 Dennis@
    October 8, 2008 at 01:17

    Hi!!!!

    Only under 1 hour till the start of the DEBATE…

    Predictions on questions?

    *I will try to gave everyone my take after that*

    Dennis

  41. 43 Dennis@OCC
    October 8, 2008 at 01:24

    To anyone from the United Kingdom or Europe…..including Will in Canada:
    The NHS needs “flying doctors”..!

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7648577.stm

    Dennis

  42. 44 Tom (of Melbourne)
    October 8, 2008 at 01:58

    The Australian Reserved Bank has cut its interest rate by one full percent citing economic condition has taken a turn for the worse. The standard rate now stands at 6%.

  43. October 8, 2008 at 02:07

    McCain tries a joke LOL

  44. 47 Pangolin
    October 8, 2008 at 02:08

    Whoo-hoo!! McCains going to buy everybody’ s mortgage without raising taxes!!! Watch the dollar dive!!

  45. 48 Kelsie in Houston
    October 8, 2008 at 02:11

    Streaming the debate (and one of those pesky, biased BBC live blogs):
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7658160.stm

  46. October 8, 2008 at 02:12

    McCain left his campaign?! 😐

  47. October 8, 2008 at 02:16

    No pointing fingers – quite correct Obama.

  48. 51 Pangolin
    October 8, 2008 at 02:16

    John McCain’s campaign manager Rick Davis owns a firm that collected over $2 million dollars in the last few years. Last check deposited as recently as August.

    Obama gave McCain a break on that one.

  49. 52 Kelsie in Houston
    October 8, 2008 at 02:20

    Mr Obama: “Senator McCain voted for four out of five Bush budgets.”

  50. October 8, 2008 at 02:22

    Obama biggest liberal – we knew that one coming.

  51. October 8, 2008 at 02:25

    McCain: All priorities at once? How?

  52. 55 Pangolin
    October 8, 2008 at 02:26

    McCain just tore the floor out from working people who have no retirement. They don’t own houses. Their 401K just took a dive or disappeared. McCain is telling them they won’t get the pittance of Social Security pensions?

  53. 56 Kelsie in Houston
    October 8, 2008 at 02:28

    Somebody must’ve forgotten to pack a wristwatch…

  54. October 8, 2008 at 02:29

    Earmarks here we come. Some earmarks are indeed good!

  55. October 8, 2008 at 02:36

    McCain goes on the attack with false tax claim.

  56. 59 Pangolin
    October 8, 2008 at 02:38

    If you’re not going to tax and spend or borrow-and-spend that leaves print-and-spend. That’s the Zimbabwe plan.

  57. 60 Jessica in NYC
    October 8, 2008 at 02:45

    Could someone please have McCain stop saying “my friend(s)”…. I’m tipsy already.

  58. 61 Kelsie in Houston
    October 8, 2008 at 02:46

    Mr Obama: “It is important to look at the record…he [Mr McCain] voted twenty-three times against alternative fuels–twenty-three times.”

  59. 63 Kelsie in Houston
    October 8, 2008 at 02:50

    Question: “Do you believe health care should be treated as a commodity?”

  60. October 8, 2008 at 02:50

    Healthcare is NOT a commodity!

  61. 65 Pangolin
    October 8, 2008 at 02:52

    My lack of health insurance has me bankrupt. I have to sell my car to pay rent next month and qualify for medicare. My sister, who has millions, is excluded from coverage due to a pre-existing condition.

  62. 66 Kelsie in Houston
    October 8, 2008 at 02:53

    Mr McCain: “The fundamental difference between myself and Sen. Obama: he’ll impose mandates.”

  63. 67 Kelsie in Houston
    October 8, 2008 at 02:55

    Question: “Is healthcare in America a privilege a right, or a responsibility?”

  64. 68 Kelsie in Houston
    October 8, 2008 at 02:56

    Mr McCain: “Government mandates make me nervous…”

    Mr Obama: “It [health care] should be a right…. People are going bankrupt to pay their medical bills.”

  65. 69 Pangolin
    October 8, 2008 at 02:57

    Obama just won the election.

    Most americans want an absolute right to health care.

  66. 70 Kelsie in Houston
    October 8, 2008 at 02:58

    Mr Obama: “It is absolutely imperative that the government crack down on insurance companies that are cheating customers.”

  67. October 8, 2008 at 02:58

    I have to agree with you Pangolin.

  68. 72 Pangolin
    October 8, 2008 at 03:01

    “We are peacemakers”- McCain

    Peace of the graveyard.- Pangolin.

  69. 73 Kelsie in Houston
    October 8, 2008 at 03:02

    Question: “How will all the recent economic stress affect our nation’s ability to act as a peacemaker in the world?”

    Mr McCain: “History shows us that nations that are strong militarily over time must have a strong economy… We are peace makers and peace keepers.”

    Mr McCain: “In his short career, he [Obama] does not understand our national security challenges…”

    Mr Obama: “It’s true–there are some things I don’t understand: how we ended up invading a country that had nothing to do with 9/11…that was Senator McCain’s judgment; it was the wrong judgment.”

  70. 74 Tom (of Melbourne)
    October 8, 2008 at 03:02

    “Is healthcare in America a privilege a right, or a responsibility?”

    Citizens (and also many non-citizens residents) sacrifice significant amounts of their earnings towards tax. Healthcare, along with education and law enforcement, are among the essential services that a government is expected to provide to its people.

  71. 75 Jonathan
    October 8, 2008 at 03:04

    Hello my friends! 🙂

    @Will

    A service isn’t a commodity? The folks who supply it charge money. Is this a semantic distinction?

  72. 76 Kelsie in Houston
    October 8, 2008 at 03:04

    Mr Obama: “[We must] fundamentally change Senator McCain’s and George Bush’s foreign policy…”

  73. October 8, 2008 at 03:06

    Moral obligation from Obama.

  74. 78 Kelsie in Houston
    October 8, 2008 at 03:06

    Mr McCain: “Senator Obama would have brought our troops home in defeat. I’ll bring them home with victory and honour, and that is a fundamental difference.”

  75. October 8, 2008 at 03:07

    McCain claims to be a cool hand – who is he trying to kid?

  76. 80 Kelsie in Houston
    October 8, 2008 at 03:08

    Not hearing a statement of a “McCain Doctrine” here…just a history lecture.

  77. 81 Kelsie in Houston
    October 8, 2008 at 03:09

    Question: Should the United States respect Pakistani sovereignty…or should we ignore their borders?

  78. 82 Jonathan
    October 8, 2008 at 03:11

    McCain defined his Pakistan doctrine last time: Do what we want but don’t admit it.

  79. October 8, 2008 at 03:12

    McCain to co-operate with other countries and claims Afghan war with Russia was a US victory.

  80. 84 Kelsie in Houston
    October 8, 2008 at 03:13

    Mr Obama: “I do believe that we have to change our policies with Pakistan. We can’t coddle, as we did, a dictator… We’re going to encourage democracy in Pakistan, expand our non-military aid to Pakistan…but insisting that they go after these militants, and if we have Osama bin-Laden in our sights and the Pakistani government is unable or unwilling to go after him, we have to take him out…we have to crush al-Qaida.”

    Mr McCain: “Senator Obama likes to talk loudly…. Our relations with Pakistan are critical because the border areas are being used as havens by the Taliban…we need to help the Pakistani government…to get the support of the people and turn them against the cruel Taliban and others…and where necessary, use force; talk softly, but carry a big stick.”

  81. 85 Kelsie in Houston
    October 8, 2008 at 03:14

    It’s getting a little tense, now…

  82. 86 Pangolin
    October 8, 2008 at 03:14

    Apparently we’re supposed to bomb the Pakistani hill tribesman in Iraq like we did with the Iraqi tribesman; with money. Paying your enemies to sit on the bench isn’t sane or sustainable.

  83. October 8, 2008 at 03:18

    Same strategy in Afghanistan as in Iraq from McCain.

  84. 88 Jonathan
    October 8, 2008 at 03:20

    @Pangolin

    Why not? Seems much more effective, much cheaper, more humanitarian, sane and sustainable.

  85. 89 Kelsie in Houston
    October 8, 2008 at 03:23

    Mr Obama: “Energy is going to be key in relation to Russia.”

  86. 90 Jonathan
    October 8, 2008 at 03:23

    That was supposed to say, paying off the enemy is more effective, cheaper, more humanitarian than blowing them up. It worked in Afghanistan, it’s working in Iraq. It’s a new idea, but it plays to our strength, and seems sane and sustainable to me.

  87. 91 Kelsie in Houston
    October 8, 2008 at 03:24

    Question: Is Russia the old Evil Empire?

  88. October 8, 2008 at 03:26

    McCain to commit troops to Israel if threatened by Iran.

  89. 93 Kelsie in Houston
    October 8, 2008 at 03:28

    Mr McCain: “We will not wait for the U.N. Security Council [in responding to a hypothetical Iranian attack on Israel]…. We can never allow a second Holocaust to take place.”

    Mr Obama: “We cannot allow Iran to get a nuclear weapon–it would be a game-changer in the region…. It is important for us to use all the tools at our disposal to prevent the scenario where we have to make those kinds of choices.”

  90. 94 Pangolin
    October 8, 2008 at 03:29

    Obligatory groveling of both candidates to appease the Israeli lobby.

  91. 95 Jonathan
    October 8, 2008 at 03:29

    Mischievous question, about “sending troops to defend Israel.” Israel has never asked for one single American soldier, during any of the wars they’ve had to fight, which is better than our other principal allies can say.

  92. 96 Kelsie in Houston
    October 8, 2008 at 03:29

    @Pangolin:
    Right on.

  93. 97 Kelsie in Houston
    October 8, 2008 at 03:33

    Last question: “What don’t you know, and how will you learn it?”

    Mr Obama: Presidency full of unknown challenges; “I wouldn’t be standing here if it weren’t for the fact that this country gave me opportunities…. We need fundamental change–that’s what at stake in this election….” Not really an answer…?

    Mr McCain: “What I don’t know is what all of us don’t know, and that’s what’s going to happen both here at home and abroad…. There are challenges around the world that are new and different…we will be talking about countries in the future, that we don’t even know where they are on a map….”

  94. October 8, 2008 at 03:33

    McCain says Americans don’t know geography!

  95. 99 Jonathan
    October 8, 2008 at 03:33

    Love the last question, “What don’t you know,” great opportunity for O. to say something about curiosity and being young and fresh and open-minded, instead of Bush/McCain/Palin–but he didn’t do it.

  96. 100 Jonathan
    October 8, 2008 at 03:35

    I liked O’s humor though, and McCain managed to sound old and grumpy without O having to say it.

  97. 101 Kelsie in Houston
    October 8, 2008 at 03:36

    And the debate is concluded…the usual questions:
    Who won? Who lost? Why? How did this format benefit or hurt Mr McCain and Mr Obama?

  98. October 8, 2008 at 03:37

    For me – biased or not – Obama won that one, too.

  99. 103 Jonathan
    October 8, 2008 at 03:39

    @Pangolin

    Rick Davis got $ from whom?

  100. 104 Pangolin
    October 8, 2008 at 03:39

    Watching John McCain move around the stage I kept having this eerie feeling that I had seen this film before. Then it struck me; John McCain is the spitting image of Grandpa Cotton Hill on the american cartoon television series “King of the Hill”.

    The image match is going to be in the back of millions of american’s minds. No doubt.

  101. 105 1430a
    October 8, 2008 at 03:39

    A great debate.Better than the last one.Well i also agree that Obama took this one.

  102. 106 Julie P
    October 8, 2008 at 03:39

    Is anyone sober?

  103. 107 Julie P
    October 8, 2008 at 03:40

    @Will,

    I agree 100%.

  104. 108 Kelsie in Houston
    October 8, 2008 at 03:42

    CNN:
    “McCain wants to buy everyone a house, Obama wants to give everyone free healthcare, which I think is amazing for a country that’s broke.”

  105. 109 Paul Harbin - Waco, Tx.
    October 8, 2008 at 03:44

    Anyone know where one might find video from the beginning? I recorded it, but the high winds we had in Texas today have put a “kink” in the line somewhere. Most of CNNHD feed is digitized. Bleh, I don’t want to have to wait till tomorrow.

  106. October 8, 2008 at 03:45

    You tube or CNN will have it on, Paul. But the full debate is repeated on CNN later.

  107. 111 Pangolin
    October 8, 2008 at 03:54

    @ Kelsie- The houses are priced above peoples incomes. The health care is priced above the EU average expenditure. Should we buy mortgages above market price or health care? Either?

    @ Jonathan- re: Rick Davis
    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/24/us/politics/24davis.html

  108. 112 Tom D Ford
    October 8, 2008 at 03:57

    I watched that “debate” and I got the very strange feeling that I was watching the death throes of the American Republican Party.

  109. 113 Tom D Ford
    October 8, 2008 at 04:00

    O’bama and Michelle are young and vibrant and Ol’ John and his wife are old, wrinkled, and out of style.

  110. 114 Roberto
    October 8, 2008 at 04:33

    RE “” John McCain is the spitting image of Grandpa Cotton Hill on the american cartoon television series “King of the Hill”. “”
    ———————————————————————————————————

    ——— Could be, but weird cartoon viewers not likely to turn out election day.

    Best new policy of the campaign: McCain buying up mortgages at the new reduced evaluations and redoing the mortagage at the new level. Unclear if the original mortgagee will be allowed to buy back his mortgage, but potentially it’s a game changer.

    Most unsettling question of the night: Iran attacking Israel and what the US response would be.

    Best assist of the night: When asked what he didn’t know at the end of the debate, Obama immediately reached up to acknowledge his wife’s role and for support of his wife. A bit of comedy with some leavening at a fanciful question.

    Quickest move of the night: After stilting around awkwardly in the lifts in his shoes, McCain showed unparalled quickness with an NBA quality leap aside when Brokaw mentioned he couldn’t read his teleprompter.

    Smoothest move of the night: After setting up center court for the first question and then watching McCain move around the perimeter in response while connecting with the panel, Obama effortlessly hit the perimeter to score points and made it look like it was his idea to begin with.

    Lehrer news panel was mixed, ie both did well with no significant advantages, but Mark Shields noted both are running economic platforms from months ago rather than dealing with new realities.

    Both repeated their fair share of dreary policy points for their supporters, but perhaps the funniest moment was when McCain tarred Obama with a Bush/Cheney bill Obama signed and hit the punch line like a pro.

    Those King of the Hill aficianados appreciate a good punch line if they were watching.

  111. 115 Roberto
    October 8, 2008 at 04:43

    RE “” O’bama and Michelle are young and vibrant and Ol’ John and his wife are old, wrinkled, and out of style. “”
    ———————————————————————————————————–

    ——– There’s your muse to follow.

    A Brittanny/Paris write in campaign. Smooth out this country with some sex videos, viagra in every medicine cabinet, and J Lo as secretary of the Bootylicious.

    Brilliant!

  112. 116 Paul Harbin - Waco, Tx.
    October 8, 2008 at 05:09

    Better than depends and denture cream any day of the week in my opinion.

    I think the most important thing about McCain’s age is the fact, out of all the senior citizens I know, you can’t convince them of anything, because their mind is already made up. I think that sort of attitude is more predominant with older generations, and lessens with younger ones. I don’t see McCain being able to move beyond his personal beliefs on a given matter. It’s going got to be his way, or it’s wrong. I think it’s important for a leader to be able to remove personal opinion away from making a judgement or coming to a decision as much as possible, in order to make the best viable choice.

  113. 117 Dennis@OCC
    October 8, 2008 at 05:13

    @ the idea of J-Lopez, Beyonce Knowles, Britney and Paris in the Cabinet in the U.S. Government —i loved the idea of those people…

    i would like to add Justin Timberlake….

    **********************************
    @ Will remarks to Paul,
    About the repeat performance of the DEBATE,
    most of the Cable News Channels i.e. Fox News
    Channel and MSNBC [and] CNN will replayed this
    for several days…

    if you are in the U.S.A.—C-SPAN is also well-known
    for playing this programme…

    Dennis

  114. 118 Dennis@OCC
    October 8, 2008 at 05:15

    To the question about GEOGRAPHY:

    I know about and i am from the United States!!!

    Dennis

  115. 119 Matthew
    October 8, 2008 at 05:27

    It was an ok debate, not great, but not rather lame like the last one. A little bit of banter here and there between the two candidates and at the expense of Tom Brokaw, was good to see.

    The difference to me is whether you agree with Obama or not he comes across as confident and statesman like, unlike McCain who was prowling and pacing around like a melancholic and wounded lion on occasion wanting to pounce one more time while having to contend with the prospect of drinking at the bar in the last chance saloon of politics. Be careful not to over burden the ticker too much. On top of that having sleepless nights about what sparkling piece of well constructed and adverse comment the Hockey Mumbo Jumbo Palin is going to astound the world with and launch in the general direction of Obama, better known as Osama the enemy within. “I ain’t voting for no Moooslem” I witnessed from an enlightened member of the electorate earlier today. The ignorance level in too many Americans is truly staggering to behold in so many instances.
    Guys need to GET OUT MORE not just beyond your state borders, but OUT OF YOUR COUNTRY and into the REAL WORLD! What befell you on 9/11 might be a dreadful and horrendous act not easy to comprehend, but it is one of many similar that have been on hold for too long and an event of such magnitude and far reaching consequences to the day!

  116. 120 Dennis@OCC
    October 8, 2008 at 05:31

    I have to agreed with Will Rhodes:

    Who won, I am a citizen of the United States and i think that Barack Obama….Won this DEBATE hands down….

    I am not forcing anyone to vote for him or John McCain, This is my personal opinion….

    Dennis

  117. 121 Tom D Ford
    October 8, 2008 at 05:36

    @ Roberto October 8, 2008 at 4:43 am

    Nice try.

    But McCain looked like he had a brain stroke right after the moderator asked about a deadline for “entitlements”.

    Ol’ John just wandered around like he was lost!

    It was the saddest thing I have seen in the “debates”.

    I don’t know if you have ever seen a person whose brain has gone, but I’ve seen and talked with an old boxer cowboy and it is not pretty.

    I have tremendous respect for our elders but McCain, well words are failing me now, … he ought to just withdraw, step aside and let the youth take their place in government and history.

    McCain is an old warrior and he ought to stand up and acknowledge that younger and better warriors have taken to the field for the United States.

    And Lipstick on a Pit-bull-dog just doesn’t make the grade.

    It’s still a dog.

    We have highly respectable “Lionesses” on both sides in America, we don’t need dogs with lipstick!

    Choose leaders, not scavengers!

  118. 122 Dennis@OCC
    October 8, 2008 at 05:47

    I thought the debate was OK…Tom Brokaw, presenting it was like watching a very unscripted talk show…..

    But i got [extra] credits in my political science course…So, i don’t care about the show….all i care was that i was in attendance.!

    **************************
    Question: Should the United States respect Pakistani sovereignty…or should we ignore their borders?

    I am going to answer : The U.S. needs to respect Pakistan
    sovereignty, because that when the U.S. invades another country
    troubles always comes…
    **********************************************************
    @Google mail goggles software
    What is that?

    Dennis

  119. 123 paul
    October 8, 2008 at 06:50

    it really seemed that neither of the candidates actually answered their questions. they just danced around the issues, taking the key word and stating their pre-stated opinions. nothing was really accomplished with this debate. it also seemed that both candidates think that Putin is still the president of russia

  120. 124 Peter
    October 8, 2008 at 07:58

    Poor America.Its enemies dance over the prospect of a particular candidate winning, and it (America) finds itself agreeing.Does America for one moment imagine it has enemies with even the slightest scintilla or shred of love for it?Clearly not.Sept 11 proved its enemies will hate it to the end.If they (the enemies)imagine Obama a better President,they betray their preference to thrive best under him at the White House.Now,if I was American,by jove,I’d do my darnest to make sure such a man never even smells the patio flowers of that White House.

  121. October 8, 2008 at 09:03

    The White House has reacted angrily after a judge ordered that 17 Chinese Muslims held at Guantanamo Bay should be released into the United States.
    …………………………………………………………………………..

    The way the President Bush and his advisors have utilized the American military for these last eight years has been a disgrace. These Chinese Muslims have been held for seven years! How can and honorable country do that? We should return Guantanimo Bay to Cuba after we raze that prison and base.

  122. 126 Pangolin-California
    October 8, 2008 at 10:15

    Does anybody know what’s happening to the Asian and European markets? Are we just in a period of general distrust and panic or is there some factual loss that appeared yesterday?

    Any personal takes on this?

  123. 127 Bob in Queensland
    October 8, 2008 at 10:43

    Well, not one of the big ones, but the Australian stock exchange suffered massive losses today.

    My personal take on this is that this is much more to do with the “lemming factor” than any logical reason as the Aussie economy is pretty healthy and certainly at a different point in the economic cycle than many other countries…interest rates here have been rising steadily for several years to combat a booming economy but had a major cut yesterday which the market seems to have ignored.

  124. 128 Bob in Queensland
    October 8, 2008 at 10:52

    Ooops…I forgot to add the LINKY I had about events on the Aussie stock exchange today.

  125. 129 Roberto
    October 8, 2008 at 10:59

    RE “” I have tremendous respect for our elders but McCain, well words are failing me now, … he ought to just withdraw, step aside “”
    ——————————————————————————————-

    ———- Well, now ol’ Tom, let me be the first to congratulate you on the eve of incorporating your planned business model.

    Yes, a bank cum government financed, government mandated and government subsidized assisted suicide hospice cum glue factory will be a huge winner in the new nationalized order.

  126. 130 Roberto
    October 8, 2008 at 11:07

    RE “” These Chinese Muslims have been held for seven years! “”
    ———————————————————————————————————-

    ——- These Chinese Muslims have been held because they were arrested on the battlefields of Afghanistan. If the US releases them to China, they will be tortured and the usual suspects will be howling to the moon.

    I agree, they should be released, but released under your custody to live in your home and making you responsible for their oversight………sorted…….next…..

  127. 131 Pangolin-California
    October 8, 2008 at 11:15

    Oz is panicking? Whaffor? You lot have all the coal, all the uranium, the best geothermal resources and lots of minerals.

    Admitted you have that nasty water problem but with enough power it’s solveable. I’d ditch California for Australia in a hot second if they’d let me in.

  128. 132 Bob in Queensland
    October 8, 2008 at 11:20

    The UK now has its own BRITISH VERSION OF A BAIL OUT PLAN. Basically it’s something like £50 billion to invest in banks but, in return, they will be part nationlised and there will be controls on things like executive salaries.

  129. 133 Bob in Queensland
    October 8, 2008 at 11:30

    @ Kelsie

    “McCain wants to buy everyone a house, Obama wants to give everyone free healthcare, which I think is amazing for a country that’s broke.”

    I can’t speak for McCain’s houses, but Americans are already spending lots of money–way over the odds–on healthcare. A proper health plan certainly doesn’t have to cost more than is being spent already.

  130. 134 Bryan
    October 8, 2008 at 11:40

    Here’s a video clip of a CNN interview with that gem of a guy, actor Jon Voigt, loyal supporter of Sarah Palin (for the one or two people here who might want to look at the Republican side of things):

    And here’s part of the transcript:

    JON VOIGHT, ACTOR: The thing that concerned me about the debate… I found so many things that I found Joe Biden said … that I recognized as out-right lies. So I’m saying, isn’t anybody on this? And of course, we’re talking to CNN and I know where you guys stand. And I’m saying, guys, we’ve got to not have a partisan press. We’ve got to have real journalism here. And it’s a sad event for me to witness this.

    ….Obama’s saying that the democrats wanted regulations. The democrats did not want regulations. …

    …. Check Barack Obama’s record — with William Ayers, with his alliance with Sol Alinsky, tactics and philosophy. With his work with ACORN…

    Yes, folks, there is another side to this debate.

  131. 135 Robert
    October 8, 2008 at 11:40

    Bob

    I saw the bail out last night and thought it was sounded a reasonable package. Then this morning I saw this.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/financialcrisis/3157728/Gordon-Brown-hails-500-billion-bank-rescue-plan.html

    The £50 billion is just part of a £500 billion package! That is $800 billion. So have we Brit’s over speading on our package, in a worse situation that the US and needed the bigger spend or have the US underestimated the costs on a grand scale?

  132. October 8, 2008 at 11:57

    Hi Will Rhodes
    & Kelsie in Houston
    Reyr October 8, 2008 at 3:28 am post
    Do I sense sympathy for Iran?
    Just as well since judging by the latest gathering of al-Qaeda, Taliban, Pakistani and Saudi leaders at Saudi King Abdullah’s invitation, we will all be negotiating peace soon. Just as well since we will be able to concentrate on the real issues -credit crunch and oil prices.

  133. 137 Bryan
    October 8, 2008 at 12:06

    Anyone know where I can watch the whole debate online? Can only get snatches of it here and there on BBC and YouTube.

  134. 138 Bryan
    October 8, 2008 at 12:17

    Jonathan October 8, 2008 at 3:29 am

    Mischievous question, about “sending troops to defend Israel.” Israel has never asked for one single American soldier, during any of the wars they’ve had to fight, which is better than our other principal allies can say.

    Too true.

    Pangolin October 8, 2008 at 3:29 am

    Obligatory groveling of both candidates to appease the Israeli lobby.

    Kelsie in Houston October 8, 2008 at 3:29 am

    I don’t know why you regard it as “grovelling.” Are you saying countries don’t have the right to form alliances and defence pacts with others and a common threat? Seems it has passed you by that Israel is in the front line against the barbaric evil of Islamic terrorism.

    And which hotel is this “Israel Lobby” in? The one next door to the Arab Lobby that we never hear anything about?

  135. 139 Bryan
    October 8, 2008 at 12:18

    Er.. I meant “…others faced with a common threat.”

  136. 140 Pangolin-California
    October 8, 2008 at 12:38

    Can we dismiss the meme that Obama was an eight year old terrorist already? Just a small clue would be that the FBI doesn’t allow such people to hold elective office. Anything that would be outside the bounds of normal political activity gets outed.

    Well, if you’re a Democrat anyway. Dick Cheney shoots a guy in the face and the guy ends up apologizing to HIM. Dick also managed to be out of touch for those post-shooting police interviews and blood tests that go along with hunting “accidents.”

    ACORN chapters assume that one of their regular and most verbal attendees is an FBI plant and give that guy or girl all the scut work. Promote violent revolution at a liberal political function and you get shoved out the door. Promote secession from the union as a right-winger and your wife gets nominated for vice president.

    So until Obama actually downs a few too many and shoots somebody…..let’s drop it.

  137. 141 Pangolin-California
    October 8, 2008 at 12:50

    What I’m saying is the subversion of the US media and federal political elites by Israel rides an atoms width this side of treason. I believe there are several people in Federal prisons for crossing that line.

    If Israel wants to be the front line against Islamic terrorism they are welcome to the job. I just don’t see why the US needs to play in that pond.

    I’m just fine with dealing with terrorists from THIS side of the Atlantic. Anybody who straps guns on and gets in trouble 8,000 miles away from home went looking for it.

  138. 142 John in Salem
    October 8, 2008 at 13:06

    Re: the debate
    When you preface something with “my friends…” people expect that what you’re going to follow it with will be sound and logical and reaasuring.
    Instead what we hear is that McCain is going to give everyone a $5,0000 tax credit to buy their own health insurance.
    Can anyone tell me where I can buy health insurance for my family for $5,000 a year? It now costs an average of $12,000 just to maintain COBRA coverage for a year for one person!
    He reminded me of Dole in the debates with Clinton, only worse. Just saying “my friends” isn’t enough to fill in the holes or make him look like a wise elder statesman instead of a confused old man.

  139. 143 Kelsie in Houston
    October 8, 2008 at 13:25

    @Bryan:
    I do not agree with the syrupy, gushy praise both candidates (and their VP nominees) pour out on our “good friend,” Israel. Am I saying we should simply abandon Israel? No–but rubber stamping it and treating it as the 51st state–as though it is somehow more valuable to us than the United Kingdom or Germany, &c–is not the right rhetorical course of action. What I don’t like is the need the candidates both feel to heap lavish amounts of praise and reaffirmation of friendship with Israel, when Israel is not our “best friend”, and when there are certainly other nations making useful contributions to this conflict against Islamic extremism.

    As regards the Israeli lobby:
    http://www.amazon.com/Israel-Lobby-U-S-Foreign-Policy/dp/0374531501/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1223468327&sr=8-1
    http://www.amazon.com/Deadliest-Lies-Israel-Jewish-Control/dp/1403984921/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1223468327&sr=8-2
    http://www.amazon.com/They-Dare-Speak-Out-Institutions/dp/155652482X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1223468327&sr=8-3
    http://www.amazon.com/Good-Jews-Crisis-Americas-Israel/dp/038551025X/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1223468327&sr=8-9

    CNN should carry the whole debate online eventually–it may be processing. Both CNN and the BBC did post the previous two debates in their entirety…

  140. 144 Pangolin-California
    October 8, 2008 at 13:43

    Re: debate

    In the US, if you go to a used car lot and you hear the words “my friends” aimed in your direction: leave. That applies to any establishment that doesn’t serve noodle soup or gyros.

    McCain isn’t selling sandwiches.

  141. 145 Bryan
    October 8, 2008 at 13:55

    Tell you what, Kelsie, I’ll make a deal with you. I’ll access those weird-looking links of yours, which I suppose will take me to blurbs advertising anti-Israel publications, if you access information on the Arab Lobby, supported by the Arabist US State Department, so that you can become aware of the damage it has done, and continues to do, to both the US and Israel. There is no reason on earth why this should just be a one-sided game here.

    But thanks for the info on the debate. I’ll try to access it and get back to you on the gushy, syrupy bit.

    Pangolin,
    If Israel wants to be the front line against Islamic terrorism they are welcome to the job.

    As if Israel has a choice in the matter.

  142. 146 Jennifer
    October 8, 2008 at 14:02

    Re: Debate

    Tom Brokaw was a pretty good host but seemed really worried about time constraints! Both Obama and McCain went over their allotted amount of time to respond. The fact that people asked the questions made this debate more interesting because we got to see how both relate to people. McCain did well at actually answering the questions instead of skirting around the issues. He did well! This debate did not change my mind about Obama. He is just giving the same rehearsed speech over and over again. He wasn’t even attempting to connect with the audience or viewers. Obama flip flopped many times saying he wanted regulations for this and that. Isn’t that a Republican thing since they want to “take away freedom”? Obama never discussed the terrorist link either.

    With election day coming up, both candidates are going to be aggressive about slinging mud because they need every vote possible. I found Obama to be less arrogant last night which to me says that he knows that is is possible for him to loose this election.

  143. 147 Kelsie in Houston
    October 8, 2008 at 14:09

    Bryan:
    LOL@my weird links…they’re just publications on Amazon that I’ve never read; just did a text search. I agree: it’s not a one-sided game, and I think you’ve a valid opinion. If/when you provide links, I’ll be happy to peruse them–I think the two “lobbies” are equally undesirable–but that’s me.

    @Jennifer:
    Mr Obama can’t give an answer to a question (about William Ayers) that was never asked. Perhaps that wasn’t on people’s minds in Nashville…

  144. October 8, 2008 at 14:22

    93 Kelsie in Houston October 8, 2008 at 3:28 am
    Mr McCain: “We will not wait for the U.N. Security Council [in responding to a hypothetical Iranian attack on Israel]… We can never allow a second Holocaust to take place.”

    1. Iran nukes Israel. 2. Resulting fallout wipes Palestine off the map, slaughters Palestinians by the thousands, leaves the rest to die of radiation sickness. 3. Sunni Muslims around the world rise up in protest, declaring Iran to be an infidel state whose infidel citizens are permissible to kill and their property permissible to pillage. 4. The U.S., England, and anyone else whom they can bully into joining them bomb Iran into the Stone Age after suppressing any attempt by the U.N. to enforce international law on them.

    Ahmadinejad might be a Holocaust-denying nut, but he is not so stupid as to attack Israel. (words: 139, chars: 865, posts: 1st today)

  145. 149 Jennifer
    October 8, 2008 at 14:25

    @ Kelsie

    I know there was no question asked about William Ayers, but why not simply address the issue to move past it? End the rumors once and for all!! As a American I am concerned about terrorists and I am sure I am not the only one.

  146. 150 Kelsie in Houston
    October 8, 2008 at 14:30

    @Jennifer:
    Again, where? There was nothing remotely related to that in the debate last night. People don’t care about the bones in either candidates’ closets: they want to know where both stand on the parlous state of the economy, the wars, and other real issues. There was no place for Mr Obama to address the issue. I don’t hear disgust over Mr McCain’s failure to assuage questions about his own past trysts.

    @Pink:
    Is fixed.

  147. 151 D.Hunt
    October 8, 2008 at 14:51

    I don’t know why everyone is excited about the American elections. This is a country which is continually at war with the rest of the world whether militarily or economically They have a cotton subsidy which cripples the rest of the world and makes it impossible for other countries to market their cotton.This subsidy costs the American people 4 Billion dollars a year and the cotton produced is sold on the open market for only three billion dollars.Militarily the U.S. has killed thousands of people in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan and the Bush adminstration should be tried before the world court and branded as War Criminals.

  148. 152 Jennifer
    October 8, 2008 at 14:56

    @ Kelsie

    For all of Obama’s changing the subject it would have fit in easily in a number of places. Terrorism is a very important issue to discuss. It shouldn’t be about passing the buck to McCain’s failures, it’s about Obama doing what he needs to do to make people feel that he is the best choice for President. We are the friends we keep.

    Right now the U.S. is vulnerable and for a country that is seeking to attack, wouldn’t now be the perfect opportunity to attack us? Think about it. The fact that Obama does not address the issue and tuck it away says to me that there is deception on his part. Imagine everyone being so elated at the fact that they elected Obama only to find out after the fact that he was a wolf in sheep’s clothing-much worse than George Bush could have ever been. And, that opinion comes from a democrat.

  149. 153 Pangolin-California
    October 8, 2008 at 14:58

    The truth always outs. Sara Palin is running around denouncing Obama for an association with a ’60s radical who was active around about when Obama was eight years old. At the same time the adult John McCain had a friendship with the 1960s radical David Ifshin. Apparently Ifshin went to Hanoi with Jane Fonda and denounced the US on Radio Hanoi. Details on dailykos.

    Is Sara going to start calling McCain a terrorist from the podium? Thou shalt not bear false witness and all that.

  150. 154 Kelsie in Houston
    October 8, 2008 at 15:02

    @D.Hunt:
    I understand your frustration–I think many Americans and many more people around the world watch this hoping that, beginning with the next president, some of that will begin to change for the better.

    @Jennifer:
    I think Mr Obama was right not to answer an issue that Mr McCain himself did not raise. This paranoia about Mr Obama being a “wolf in sheep’s clothing” does not add up, in my opinion. It does the Republican (or anti-Obama) argument and Mr McCain himself a grave disservice if those who oppose Mr Obama are unable to articulate real, viable reasons for doing so–but instead resort to base mudslinging. In what is arguably the most important presidential race of my lifetime, possibly ever, and during our economy’s darkest hour, we really need to focus on the things that matter, instead of taking a play from the Rt. Honourable David Cameron’s book and dredging up the past to obfuscate the future.

    Gotta run now–will catch up with you later this evening. I am glad you stayed, Jennifer: it’s good to have voices like yours.

  151. October 8, 2008 at 15:06

    @ Jennifer:
    Right now the U.S. is vulnerable and for a country that is seeking to attack, wouldn’t now be the perfect opportunity to attack us? Think about it. The fact that Obama does not address the issue and tuck it away says to me that there is deception on his part.

    So should he continue on the path of fear-mongering that the ‘pubs and Dubya love so much? Would that make you feel more comfortable? Just more of the same?

    If the U.S. is so vulnerable to attack, why do we act like our poo smells of roses and lavender?

  152. October 8, 2008 at 15:09

    Perhaps our leaders should act a bit more humble in the international community instead of focusing on scaring the US citizens at every turn so they follow and back policy like little sheep.

  153. 157 Bryan
    October 8, 2008 at 15:25

    Kelsie in Houston October 8, 2008 at 2:09 pm

    …..my weird links…they’re just publications on Amazon that I’ve never read; just did a text search.

    That was pretty obvious. It was clear from the text of the links that they were to Amazon. Now if you would actually like to debate the issue instead of flinging links around to publications that you have never read, be my guest.

    (Strikes me that it would be quite funny of those Amazons books were debunking the Israel Lobby myth.) You would be arguing against yourself.

  154. 158 Jennifer
    October 8, 2008 at 17:17

    Would it be possible for a moderator to contact me?

    Several of my posts have been lost in space and them are posted and one is missing.

    Thank you:)

  155. 159 Jennifer
    October 8, 2008 at 17:44

    @ Kelsie

    It seems that my last post in response to your comment about fear grew legs and ran away. In a nutshell I said it’s interesting to discuss fear when Obama would have everyone alienating an entire political party. Both democrats and republicans got us into the situation we are in. At some point we have to say enough and just stop blaming the other guy. We don’t accomplish anything until that time.

    I thought about what Nelson said regarding second chances and I thought I would give it a try after stepping away for a little bit. However, I think my return was very short lived seeing as my posts have decided to disappear. I will miss reading the opinions of a few people but I don’t see anything changing here. Thanks for your kindness anyway. 🙂

  156. October 8, 2008 at 17:58

    Obama is right….

    health care should be a right. Medicare should take up universal health care for everyone and pay 80% with private health care companies offering insurance for the other 20%….no questions asked. If you pay taxes you should get something personal and it would make our citizens more resistent against bankruptcy.

    Obama is right…..

    There should be another economic stimulous package. At least $50,000 to each tax filer who filed last year. This would get money into the markets. Help citizens pay down debt. Giving the money to the rich wall street types to blow on celebration parties is exactly the wrong way to go.

    Obama is right….., but here is what he or McCain needs to do.

    We need to use all federal and state prisons plus all illegal alians to fill in as emergency soldiers to cordon off and search out all tribal areas inside both Afghanistan and Pakistan. This would be an air lift and parachute drop of millions of people to find, close with and destroy the enemy. There is no way the folks dropped in there would be able to do much except ally with each other and fight together or be killed as invading infadels. or defect to be the problem of the folks who certainly would not like them very much and be one hell of a burdan to feed, and house.

    Obama is right….

    95% of all American should get a tax break. Matter of fact it should all be a 10% across the board flat tax for all who earn less than $200,000 . A flat 20% for those earning more than $200,000 a year.

    Tax form be on a post card and simple:

    gross income………………………………………….40,000 average american
    business expenses………………………………..20,000
    net income………………………………………………20,000

    pay 10% of $20,000…………………………………..2,000

    First $2,000 of everyone’s tax pays for their co-payment of medicare

    Obama is right….

    First priority has to be a national energy plan. Adopt T. Boone Pickens Plan.

    If either Obama or McCain would stand up and front for these issues they would get my vote.

    troop on Oregon coast

  157. 161 Dennis@OCC
    October 8, 2008 at 18:03

    I want to revised my comments and add to them by saying that, HEALTH CARE is an RIGHT for every person…

    2ND: National Energy Plan: i support the T.BOONE Pickens programme towards energy solvency…

    Dennis

  158. 163 Jens
    October 8, 2008 at 19:46

    jennifer,

    obama could not be as bad as bush if he tried. all these attacks on his integrety are just attacks nothing else. i look at palin talk and i am getting sick. she says she is a good christian and the lies. she is a hypcrite and that is it. she even supported the alaskan sessaction, now how american is that then…..i am just listening to maccain and his whipped up supporters. looking at these gastly faces of his supporters i start to understand why we have so much hate in this country. it these idiots klining to their bibel and their guns. a sick cheering bunch of lemmings being guided into the abyss. they lost almost all their money while bush and his croonies get rich. how blind can one be. only the dummest of cows sellects his own buther and follows him the slaughterhouse.

  159. 164 Venessa
    October 8, 2008 at 19:58

    Thanks Count Iblis, I was just getting ready to do some research. My suspicion was that it had to do with something educational. The way that it was spun was a bit disingenuous.

  160. 165 Jennifer
    October 8, 2008 at 21:37

    @ Jens

    Obama IS as bad as Bush! I have failed to see any of his integrity just evasiveness. In both debates, he has been afraid to say anything definite for fear of a catch 22 or being caught in a flubb. We did not get in the mess we are in today just because of Republicans; both Democrats and Republicans had their hands in the cookie jar.

    I find it interesting that many people on several occasions on this blog have referred to Christian people as if they have the plague. What is a “good Christian”? One who doesn’t exhibit ANY sign that they believe in a higher power for fear of interfering with someone else’s belief or non-belief? I don’t see how someone can be objective enough to discuss something in a reasonable manner when they do nothing but sling insults about something they have little unbiased knowledge of.

    ________

  161. 166 Jens
    October 8, 2008 at 23:57

    jennifer,

    maccain and palin are inciting violent and aggressive behaviour with their false claims and spreading the lie that obama is a muslim. they have not once stepped out and said that is not true. you have no people at republican rallies scream “terrosist” and “kill him” when obama’s name is metioned. now tell me that this is christian behaviour. they are liars and cheats, who want to manipulate with fear, just as bush did. i am sick and tiered of it AND we do not need another war to bolster macnasty’s ego.

  162. 167 Venessa
    October 9, 2008 at 00:13

    Jens ~

    I believe most of the clips I have seen of Palin she is preaching about “winning wars.” What kind of “good Christian” promotes wars before diplomacy?

  163. 168 Venessa
    October 9, 2008 at 00:20

    Jennifer ~

    I think it’s a matter of what we want to hear. With biased ears we pick the things out of these debates that support our views. Regardless the same assertion to describe Obama’s evasiveness could be said of McCain as well. Politicians in general are good at skirting the questions. Both are guilty and I don’t see how either one is worse than the other in this regard. Each is being equally vague. They both have an agenda to get as many votes as possible and avoiding concrete answers is the way to appeal to a greater audience. No one wants to alienate potential voters this late in the game.

  164. 169 Kelsie in Houston
    October 9, 2008 at 00:29

    Bryan:
    Congrats: you’ve exposed me. Yet another left-wing crazy who “hurtles links” instead of “engaging in debate.” At least I fit in around here…

    I would like to debate, actually–and, I might remind you, this is not a “one-sided” game, so where are your links about this “Arab lobby?” Given your past record of impassioned opposition to “bias,” I expect your information will be totally centrist, without a hint of right-wing bias or paranoia.

    I’ll be waiting.

  165. 170 Kelsie in Houston
    October 9, 2008 at 00:30

    @Jennifer:
    I didn’t see that one–unless it’s your 2.56pm; I see a 9.37pm, but it’s to Jens, not me. I’ll take you up on that one, though: I am an Episcopalian Christian, and have noticed that the most vitriolic of all topics on this blog is Islam, not Christianity. Some of the contributors here are violently opposed to any rational view of Muslims as human beings. I do think, as an Episcopalian, that Mrs Palin’s religious beliefs are worrying as they relate to her policy stances (especially vis-á-vis climate change). That being said, I don’t think the mere fact that she is a Christian is troubling–only the way she chooses to channel that into the political arena. If we excuse that, we’re guilty of the same thing we profess to dislike in such places as the Islamic Republic of Iran.

    I think we would want to be careful about equating criticism–legitimate criticism–of Christianity with “insults.” It is not insulting to call into question the beliefs of a person who professes to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ but sings, “Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb-bomb Iran.” That isn’t insulting, imho. It could be considered crass vis-á-vis Mr McCain, but it doesn’t insult his (our?) religion.

    Jens’ most recent question–What kind of “good Christian” promotes wars before diplomacy?–also fits into that mould.

    Back to Obama/McCain: I agree about not blaming the other guy, but dredging up dirt from the past is accomplishing the same ends. Neither of the candidates is truly interested in bipartisanship; I don’t think this election is going to usher in a major era of peace and harmony where Capitol Hill is concerned. I do think that fearmongering and painting that mythical place beyond the River Oceanus known as “Everywhere-That’s-Not-America” as some kind of “here there be dragons” horrorland is counterproductive, and that is what I personally see Mr McCain doing…but that’s just one voter’s opinion.

  166. 171 Kelsie in Houston
    October 9, 2008 at 00:54

    @Jennifer:
    I’m reminded of a stanza from Leonard Bernstein’s (in)famous Mass:

    God made us the boss!
    God gave us the Cross!
    We turned it into a sword
    To spread the word of the Lord
    We use his holy decrees
    To do whatever we please–yeah!
    And it was good, yeah!
    And it was good, yeah!
    And it was [—][—-] good!
    (stage direction): They dance, drunk with power

    Christianity, like any religion, has a perception problem that can’t been laid wholly at the feet of its detractors. When the President professes himself to be a “born again believer” and “speaks crusade” on the Middle East, I think people have a right to question whether or not religion is being misused…

  167. 172 Jennifer
    October 9, 2008 at 04:52

    @ Kelsie

    I was hoping the message would show up but it didn’t. Diplomacy is more desirable but the reality is that it does not always work. I am not saying that we shouldn’t meet with other leaders, but there should be pre-conditions. McCain believes that to be appropriate while until recently Obama did not.

    As far as Christianity goes, it is seen as dirty here. Just because SP makes it known that she IS religious every decision is said to be made because of that fact without considering she may have other logical reasons for her political decisions. I wonder if you have really looked into her policies and what she stands for or if you just buy into liberal paranoia.

    As for the bomb bomb bomb thing, I’d say some people aren’t able to lighten up or take a joke. A song parody? That is ridiculous paranoia. It makes all of the other more horrible things I’ve read seem like seem all the more terrible to me. How can you compare that to a claim that someone is a terrorist? Try…Sarah Palin will exchange sexual services for her place in office, Sarah Palin may be beautiful but we know she has bad genes (referring to her child with downs syndrome), Her youngest son is actually her grandson, etc.-all unfounded stupid lies. Obama has said several times that families should be off limits. That works well for him because he never makes any accusations himself; his “fans” including Lindsey Lohan, Oprah, and all the other celebs do it for him. I think with as many people as I am sure have doubts as to Obama’s faith and links, he should have addressed it to dismiss it altogether. Instead, he lies by not answering it at all. I”ll always believe that we are the friends we keep. These are not friends that he stole a candy bar with or something…these are connections that could be re-kindled once he is in office.

    Yes, instead of defining a “good Christian” Jens asked a flippant question shifted the blame back to Christians. I know his answer will always be to find some blame with people who are religious. As a matter of fact, in his answer and even in the stanza you quoted there were stereotypes. Not all people use their Religion to get power or validate their actions. As far as my military friends, they did not enlist to spread the word of God in foreign lands-just to have some money for college, learn leadership skills, etc. They just wanted to fulfill their commitment and get home to their families!

    It was nice talking with you! 😀

    /End of conversation

  168. 173 Kelsie in Houston
    October 9, 2008 at 05:07

    Jennifer:
    I have really looked into her policies, and I am personally disturbed by her use of my religion to justify decisions such as a refusal to acknowledge global warming. That’s not, as you say, “liberal paranoia”–I respect her right to hold her positions, but I don’t agree with them–and I don’t appreciate that being written off as “paranoia.”

    I don’t think Mr McCain’s “joke” was very humorous given the present state of world affairs. For a man who prides himself on being seriously committed to leadership, that kind of gaffe is even a bit out of character for Mr McCain.

    I don’t know where you’re dredging this information up about Mrs Palin in a vain attempt to attribute it to me, but you will be hard pressed indeed to find instances where I have made such allegations. And I don’t agree with your insinuation that Mr Obama is either encouraging this or somehow to blame. Your accusations of paranoia are somewhat questionable in light of the following: “These are not friends that he stole a candy bar with or something…these are connections that could be re-kindled once he is in office.”

    “As far as my military friends, they did not enlist to spread the word of God in foreign lands-just to have some money for college, learn leadership skills, etc.”

    I have never claimed otherwise, Jennifer–you’re attacking straw-men here. Christianity itself has a long legacy, however, of spreading the Word of the Lord by the sword–that is what Mr Bernstein was indicting; not “your military friends.”

    And do not be so presumptuous as to post the following : “/end of conversation.” That’s very rude.

  169. 174 Bryan
    October 9, 2008 at 08:05

    Jennifer October 8, 2008 at 9:37 pm

    I find it interesting that many people on several occasions on this blog have referred to Christian people as if they have the plague.

    I also find that interesting – and quite disturbing as well. As if Christians are the ones currently beheading people and blowing up civilians on a daily basis across the planet for the “crime” of not following their religion. If Christians were doing that, one could understand antipathy towards them. But they aren’t, and in fact very often they themselves are in fact the victims of such barbaric behaviour.

    (Spot the missing word in that paragraph.)

    Jens October 8, 2008 at 7:46 pm

    looking at these gastly faces of his supporters i start to understand why we have so much hate in this country.

    Looks like you’ve fallen for the Democrat-supporting cameraman’s camera angle and choice of subject. Don’t be so easily conned.

    And on the subject of hate, read the Democrat and far left blogs and you’ll find them riddled with it.

  170. 175 Bryan
    October 9, 2008 at 09:16

    Kelsie in Houston October 9, 2008 at 12:29 am

    Sorry to be pedantic, but I would never write, “hurtles links,” since I don’t think the verb can be used like that. I only point that out since you attributed the quote to me. I wrote, “flinging links,” which is similar to “hurls links.”

    Now I’ll hurtle over this hurdle and get to the point that you seem intent on missing. We can both plaster links all over the place but that is a poor way to debate. I think links should be used sparingly, to back up a point made in the course of debate. I’m quite prepared to discuss the relative influence of the Israel lobby and the Arab lobby without any reference to Google at all. I did so here:

    https://worldhaveyoursay.wordpress.com/2008/09/10/bbc-special-debate-in-la/#comment-72063

    Regarding bias, I never claimed to be unbiased. As an example, I am biased in favour of a country that suffers terror attacks on a daily basis through no fault of its own and biased against the terrorists committed to the slaughter of that country’s civilians. I would have thought that to be a natural human response, though, rather than bias in its usual sense.

    What am saying is that the publicly-funded BBC is obliged by its charter to be fair and impartial. Unfortunately, it is anything but evenhanded, especially when reporting on the Israeli-Arab conflict.

  171. 176 Jonathan
    October 9, 2008 at 10:23

    @Bryan

    Looks like you’ve fallen for the Democrat-supporting cameraman’s camera angle and choice of subject. Don’t be so easily conned.

    Hoo boy. Bryan, I gotta say, you and I may have had our rough patches, but you always leave me smiling, at least.

    Let’s see: A McCain rally. I can’t say I watched it, but I’d bet that the cameras were usually on McCain, with his very many adoring fans all around him, and sometimes shots of crowd reaction? Was that the “choice of subject?” Yes? And it didn’t look good? Hmmmm. Of course, he looked pretty strange in the “debate” when he snarled at the moderator that he wouldn’t make him Treasury Secretary, and when he called his opponent and fellow Senator “that one,” and when he blundered in front of the moderator, and mumbled about hair transplants–you suppose that was more wizardry by the notoriously anti-McCain TV production people?

    So do you actually know something about the politics of CNN camera operators, or that one in particular? Or are you just, well, making it up? You don’t even feel obliged to qualify your fantasies with, say, “I bet,” or “I wonder if,” something like that?

    On a serious note, if you’re not American, what compels you to be not just interested in American politics, but utterly obsessed with them, and to be more feverishly partisan than most Americans? It’s very unusual.

  172. 177 Roberto
    October 9, 2008 at 10:46

    RE “” I do think, as an Episcopalian, that Mrs Palin’s religious beliefs are worrying as they relate to her policy stances (especially vis-á-vis climate change). “”
    ———————————————————————————————

    ——- Hmmmm, Mrs Palin is a non-denominational Christian.

    Fresh off a Pentecostal period and raised as Catholic according to bio. She might ven be considered an infidel to many evangelist religions.

    As far as climate change, never heard her use religion. She says global warming is a combination of natural warming cycle and man made changes to the environment. This is a factual summation that cannot be scientifically refuted.

    Now, she may see God’s hand in the natural cycle of things, and she may see God’s hand in the man made side of things and she may dicker over where responsibilities should be assumed and by whom.

    Yes, she invokes God as all politicians are want to do, but at the end of the day, that’s her primary job, to get elected and as such, she has to out manipulate a very manipulative process, and it ain’t purty. She did describe herself as a pitbull in lipstick, so there is some truth in the advertising here.

  173. 178 Bryan
    October 9, 2008 at 11:10

    I wasn’t referring to the camera work on that particular debate (and I think jens was talking more generally as well) but to others where they will home in on less attractive Republicans who happen to be gaping in admiration at their leaders. I am surprised that you have never picked this up. It’s just one of the dirty tricks the media use and it’s well-known. No, there’s no way I can know the political inclinations of a cameraman but there ain’t no doubt whatsoever that media like CNN are positively pickled in leftie PC. But since you turn your nose up at video links I post here and wont watch them, I guess there no point in providing you with any evidence.

    No, I’m not “utterly obsessed” with the election, I’m giving it the amount of attention it warrants since the result will appoint the leader of the greatest country on earth. And I’m actually not that partisan. I’m not that sure of McCain, for example, and distinctly unimpressed with the dirty tricks and adverts from both sides. I’m also quite interested in the fact that this blog is so partisan. Perhaps since “impartial” BBC reporters hang on Obama’s every utterance like groupies at a rock concert while ignoring McCain, and this is a BBC blog, I guess we can conclude that like attracts like in this instance.

    Someone on another blog mentioned that during the BBC’s live broadcast of the 2nd debate (I didn’t see it) the tape along the bottom had quotes exclusively from Obama for some time, with one or two from McCain only featuring far into the debate. If you want to talk about “feverishly partisan” you have much better targets than myself.

  174. 179 Jonathan
    October 9, 2008 at 12:07

    @Bryan~

    You really, truly are serious about the camera bias then? I gotta love it.

    The participants on this blog are a self-selected population, being people who are interested in international affairs, which differentiates them from the low proles who comprise what is appropriately called the “base” of support for the likes of McCain, Bush, Palin, et alia. In case it has escaped your notice, the Republicans in recent years, and never more than now, are aiming very low, specifically for bozos and Bubbas. They’re anti-intellectual, anti-science, jingoistic, and in general packaged for consumption in the dim, distant, downmarket reaches of the heartland.

    What I mean is that they’re playing at the shallow end of the gene pool, so to say. It follows that the audiences may well actually BE less attractive than their relatively better educated, more affluent Democratic neighbors who do “elite” things like reading and wearing shoes and getting dental care and listening to foreign radio shows and even going to foreign countries. Might be just that simple.

  175. 180 Bryan
    October 9, 2008 at 12:21

    Poor, biased, defence Jonathan.

  176. 181 Kelsie in Houston
    October 9, 2008 at 12:47

    @Bryan:
    I got 1/4th through your English lesson and chose not to subject myself to yet another tedious diatribe attempting to fling as much mud as possible in an attempt to obfuscate a lack of substance. I think I’ll adopt the same stance as many others have re: your posts, and simply scroll on past them–life is too short.

  177. 182 Bob in Queensland
    October 9, 2008 at 12:48

    @ Bryan

    I don’t personally think Jonathan’s defence is “poor” or “biased” but let me give you another one anyway.

    The production side of TV news coverage just doesn’t work the way you assume. The technicians don’t sit there considering the finer points of nuance–they often have minutes–or even seconds– to do their jobs and just get on with it. Note that I’m talking about broadcast techs here, not the “shoot it yourself documentary maker”.

    As a group, broadcast technicians (despite what you may think of me) tend to be right of centre in the political spectrum. I’m sure a sociologist could give a formal reason for this but I assume it’s to do with relatively good pay coupled with a bigger interest in matters technical than political.

    At a typical news event there is a “media scrum” with camera crews having to grab shots as best they can. The camera crew is generally separated from the reporter and working independently with shot choice determined more by practicalities than any deliberate editorialising.

    Finally, the pictures shot by the cameraman go through various hands before getting on air. At a live event, a director is calling shots “Camera 3, get me a crowd reaction…Take 3”. In the case of a news edit, the journalist will (usually) work with an editor. Very occasionally the journo with ask for a specific shot, much more typically, his input will be along the lines of “I need 15 seconds of the crowd then into the soundbite at 19:57:21:18 time code”.

    TV News is a far more mechanical and far less cerebral process than you think.

  178. 183 Bryan
    October 9, 2008 at 13:10

    Bob, thanks for that. I was actually hoping that you would give us your input here. The kind of thing I’m talking about is the camera going back again and again to dwell on the most vacant-looking people in the audience for no apparent reason. The process you outline is interesting. Though I can see how it might be tough to engineer bias given those constraints, I just don’t see how it precludes bias.

    Kelsie in Houston October 9, 2008 at 12:47 pm,

    Adopt whatever you like in order to avoid the debate but it’s a bit rich of you to accuse Jennifer of being “rude” for wanting to end a particular conversation while you show far more rudeness by walking away on a permanent basis. As I said, the only reason for my “English lesson” was that the quote you attributed to me was not mine.

  179. 184 Bob in Queensland
    October 9, 2008 at 13:41

    @ Bryan

    At the risk of trivialising this debate, the main bias you’re likely to see from TV cameramen is in favour of any women with tight, low cut tops or short skirts.

    Is the particular clip or clips you were talking about available online? I’d like to have a look.

  180. 185 Bryan
    October 9, 2008 at 14:18

    Bob, I’ll scout.

  181. 186 Jennifer
    October 9, 2008 at 16:59

    @ Kelsie

    I am sorry if I offended you by placing [/end of conversation] at the end of my post. It was much longer than I anticipated it would be. I respect your opinions for what they are but I don’t feel that I have anything else to contribute to the conversation. I will say this….what is different from saying the Christian legacy as opposed to for forever Christians have……followed by a stereotype? You can not lump EVERY of anything together. People are individuals and when we only see a label of man, woman, christian, etc. we fail to see the whole person.

    From the statements you have made in your comments regarding SP’s stance on things…..that she uses her political career to further her religious agenda, I do not believe that you have looked at credible sources for information on SP or you would not believe as you do. With regards to climate change and the concerns that some have regarding it, how is that worse than taking an innocent life? You have concern for a tree or the air but not a child that did not ask to be created? I guess different people have different priorities….

  182. 187 Jennifer
    October 9, 2008 at 17:52

    @ Bryan

    Re: Media Bias

    I have watched the debates on MSNBC. I specifically remember one of the reporters giving his endorsement for Obama while there was a huge Obama sign in the background. I think those things have the ability to persuade (brainwash?) people. As a journalist, I think it would be hard to set aside personal opinion but I want to receive the news in a manner that allows me to formulate my own opinion, not be coaxed to believe a certain way because all I hear is praise for one particular candidate.

    Like I was telling Kelsie, the bias can come in the form of what is said about a candidate but also about what is smeared against the other candidates. Obama does not do his own smearing. This allows him to maintain his good guy image to some people. We heard nothing after the VP debate that the restaurant Biden talked about going to, Katie’s restaurant….which closed down years ago? If it had been Sarah Palin’s remark, they would have jumped all over it! The same with his crying and breaking down. Either it would have been a show of weakness or her trying to use her femininity to win votes by crying. Yet, when she or McCain say anything back they are “negative” or “stupid”.

  183. 188 Venessa
    October 9, 2008 at 18:04

    Bryan ~

    “Though I can see how it might be tough to engineer bias given those constraints, I just don’t see how it precludes bias.”

    I can back up Bob in this. If you have ever been in a studio or operated a camera it goes fast and you don’t have time to be biased. You have time to find the best shot that fits the director’s request. Sometimes they end up being ugly. I’ve directed and operated a camera in a live situation and neither lend a lot of time to thinking about personal interests.

    I too would be curious to take a look at the clips.

  184. 189 John LaGrua/New York
    October 9, 2008 at 19:21

    A charade ,two arm wrestling puppets on a railroad track oblovious to the oncoming locomotive.A septuagenarian past his sell by date ,and a young junior executive type who would need a decade of training before entering an execuvtive suite.tNo one with the courage to bluntly tell the US voter what he already knows ,”We are up to our neck in dung and its rising” Time to lead by setting a serious agenda and not sugar coating the bad medicine.What if Churchill had told the Brits in 1940;” Elect me ,I will fix it while you go off to the beach’Hitler would have enjoyed a performance of Wagner Ring Cycle at the Royal Opera house in London on his Christmas break. History has often brought great leaders at the time of great peril .Where are you WC and FDR when we need you!

  185. 190 Bryan
    October 9, 2008 at 20:01

    Jennifer October 9, 2008 at 5:52 pm,

    Yep, the media is biased alright. Against my better judgement, I just watched a clip of that raving subversive, the “Reverend” Wright, delivering one of his “sermons” to his faithful flock. Anyone who had different views to Wright would not have been able to remain in that church for five minutes under an onslaught like that, leave alone twenty years, as Obama did. I also saw a buddy-buddy photo of Obama with Wright, both grinning broadly, though I suppose that could have been faked. And then there is his enduring relationship with unrepentant terrorist Bill Ayers and communist Saul Alinsky. Obama is a highly suspect individual. But what does the lefty MSM, including the BBC, do about all this? It basically ignores it, preferring to attack John McCain Sarah Palin:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/10/flipping_the_ticket.html

    I’m wondering how an “impartial” BBC journalist can justify calling Palin “ignorant” and describing her as speaking style as “screeching.” Yes. it’s a blog and therefore more informal than a news report, but this guy is BBC North America editor and blogs are these days competing with more formal media as a news source.

    How does the BBC justify this?

  186. 191 Bryan
    October 9, 2008 at 20:37

    Venessa October 9, 2008 at 6:04 pm

    I’ve had a look online, but I have not been able to find the clips I was thinking of. But it’s strange that on the next thread they were discussing Fox News objecting to an unflattering photo of Sarah Palin on the cover of Newsweek. Now I can accept that you and Bob were not involved in trying to present unflattering images of people out of political bias, but there is no doubt that it happens all the time – though I concede it would be difficult to achieve in a strictly controlled TV news environment where time is short.

    Dunno if you recall the fauxtography scandals during the Israeli-Hezbollah war, like the photo that Reuters cheerfully accepted that had a column of smoke duplicated to make it appear that the damage after IAF bombing was worse than it was in fact. (To Reuters’ credit, they eventually refused to accept more work from the photographer.) And the ambulance that the Israelis had allegedly attacked with a missile, except that the perfect hole in the roof was an existing hatch, the cover of which had been removed. This didn’t bother the lefty Western media. They didn’t look at the photographs with eyes open, evidently because they wanted to believe that the Israelis were deliberately attacking Lebanese ambulances.

  187. 192 Venessa
    October 9, 2008 at 21:00

    Bryan ~

    You will get no argument from me that there is a lot of media bias, especially in print. Doctoring pictures and posting them as truth is deplorable. In the case of a live production that is not fully scripted, most likely has a shot list and is tightly scheduled it can be quite difficult to add ones own partiality.

    Hopefully you’ll come across those clips at some point. My interest is piqued. I did see a portion of the objection to the Palin Newsweek cover. Unfortunately that’s not news, it’s a time filler and something I would expect to see on E news.

  188. 193 Jennifer
    October 9, 2008 at 21:19

    @ Bryan

    I agree with you about Obama being evasive about some things. If only I could have 5 minutes with him; I’d get the dirt! haha I don’t understand why he does not address issues head on to discount them. I’ve tried to find positives about Obama but as hard as I have tried I can’t.

    I think the BBC like many other media outlets is swept up in the frenzy of Obama. Probably the ones who don’t think he’s all that are the only ones that notice he gets most of the positive press. As for SP’s accent and “screeching”, well I would go so far as to say those are just desperate attacks. I think they are underestimating her!

    The BBC is not the only one caught up with Obama; all media outlets seem to be. I don’t think the public notices unless they do not support him. Blogs are less formal and if they are not official blogs (even if they are) people should take what is on them with a grain of salt! This is the first blog I’ve participated on. I try to read every post but some I value and some I just chunk as jibberish. That’s important too! 🙂

  189. 194 Bryan
    October 9, 2008 at 23:39

    Venessa, I haven’t yet been able to find the clips. But I’ll keep looking. The internet is full of evidence of the fauxtography I mentioned. The Palestinians produce a tremendous amount of it on video. You probably know that its been coined “Pallywood” and you can’t trust a foot of the footage. The Mohammed al Dura hoax is a case in point.

    Jennifer, while scouting the net for evidence of the bias I was talking about I watched Sarah Palin’s acceptance speech again. She certainly is good at public speaking. She was on fire. This contest should be between Palin and Obama with McCain running for VP. Imagine how that would change things. I’d like to see Palin debate Obama. Sparks would certainly fly.

  190. 195 Bob in Queensland
    October 10, 2008 at 02:46

    @ Bryan

    Do you think so? Palin’s strength seems to be in delivering a prepared speech. I have yet to be impressed by her ability to think on her feet in an interview or debate format where she’s dealing with the unexpected.

  191. 196 Jennifer
    October 10, 2008 at 03:57

    @ Bryan

    Maybe you have already see it but if not you should look for the Wink video on youtube…..where it has all of her winks during the debate set to the song by Neal McCoy! haha Even though I do believe it’s meant to be offensive; I think it’s funny because there’s nothing wrong with it at all! SP is underestimated. I think all the people who have mocked her fail to realize that she possess the ability to connect with common people. For all the crap everyone has gave her, she is doing well! 🙂 I find her to be very genuine and a very good speaker. If I want to hear a prepared rehearsed speech I just listen to Obama. Between Obama and SP, there would be a heck load of sparks flying. 😉

  192. 197 Bryan
    October 10, 2008 at 08:33

    Bob in Queensland October 10, 2008 at 2:46 am,

    Fair point, but leadership is also about qualities she has that the others seem to lack: for a politician she’s quite uninhibited and direct in her attitude. She also has a clear idea of where she’s going. Leaders sometimes have to lead, not continually be looking around to make sure everyone is following them. Otherwise why would you need someone with leadership abilities. You could just pick anyone out of the crowd and say, “Look, you’re it, you lead we’ll follow.” I think she’d be good in a crisis.

    It’s actually beyond me that so few people on this site have any reservations about Obama and his intimate and long-term associations with extreme anti-American subversives. Is it just that people don’t want to know about it or has the MSM succeeded in sweeping all that under the carpet so effectively that many people genuinely don’t know about it? Yet the smallest error that Sarah Palin makes is put under the microscope. The left wing of the MSM has failed miserably in its obligation to bring us the facts about the candidates. This is not journalism.

    Jennifer October 10, 2008 at 3:57 am

    I’ll check it out, wink. I wonder if Sarah Palin’s detractors have considered the fact that not everyone is able to wink.

  193. October 10, 2008 at 20:52

    The onset of the present financial and economic crises in such a short time, at least in the public domain, underpins the dire need for the next President to be one who has the capability to grapple with the complex problem (with his top Advisors) and set them on a more straight, and sustainable course for the future. One can only hope for a successful Presidential outcome to re-build future confidence and growth.

  194. November 8, 2008 at 21:08

    Do you think that Obama is going to win because the Republicans have such a bad candidate?
    Why did John McCain make his final argument against Obama… coal?
    That’s his closing argument? William Ayers, Rev. Wright, spreading the wealth, Born Alive, meeting dictators without preconditions, etc. all have to take a back seat so that McCain can go to Colorado and New Mexico to talk about coal? Does this more or less explain why he’s going to get his clock cleaned Tuesday?


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