01
Oct
08

Talking Points 2nd of October

Hello, this is Helen. Here’s some ideas to get you thinking today.

Will the credit crunch change the way we work? Does this spell the end of the 5-day working week? As the credit crunch erodes pensions, what effect will this have on retirement age? The credit crunch could also have other unexpected knock on effects, on chocolate sales, Playboy bunnies and tooth fairies..

An Australian accused of denying the Holocaust was arrested upon arrival in London yesterday. Should we be arresting people for “thought crimes”? Does this encroach on our freedom of speech?

Dignitas, the centre for assisted dying in Switzerland, says it has helped 100 British citizens to die. The UK law, which bans people from helping someone to commit suicide, is being challenged in court today by a woman with multiple sclerosis who wants the right to choose when, and how, she wants to die. British philosopher Mary Warnock thinks people should have this choice. Do you agree?

It seems that David Cameron, the British opposition leader, can do no wrong in the eyes of the media. Sarah Palin became the media darling when she was announced as McCain’s running mate, but that relationship has since cooled off. Ahead of today’s vice-presidential debate, why do you think some politicians become the favourites of the fourth estate?


224 Responses to “Talking Points 2nd of October”


  1. 1 Jessica in NYC
    October 1, 2008 at 19:06

    Hi Amy and Bob, Here three articles I found interesting. Any thoughts?

    From the BBC: Frustration as EU monitors barred
    —-
    From Aljazeera: Global crisis reinvigorates Brown
    —-
    From the LA Times: Supreme Court won’t reconsider death penalty for child rape

  2. 2 Julie P
    October 1, 2008 at 19:08

    Commander Amy,

    Chinese women’s gymnasts found legit, however two members are still under investigation.

    http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/10/01/china.gymnasts/index.html

  3. 3 Jens
    October 1, 2008 at 19:11

    @ jess,

    well that would be another descission that Mrs Moose could not remember…….

  4. 4 Jessica in NYC
    October 1, 2008 at 19:21

    @ Jens

    LOL, maybe Palin will check one of the “vast, vast” newspapers she reads regularly, but cannot name.

  5. 5 Sheikh Kafumba Dukuly
    October 1, 2008 at 19:22

    @ AMY AND BOB, HOPE YOU HAVE A THOUGHT PROVOKING NIGHT.

  6. October 1, 2008 at 19:28

    Former Kenyan presidential candidate and current prime minister Raila Odinga has a computer virus named after him. Should other leaders be given the dubious honour also?

  7. 7 Sheikh Kafumba Dukuly
    October 1, 2008 at 19:29

    @Jess, as a member of Amnesty Liberia youth club, i reiterate that the death penalty is too harsh and does not help in reforming criminals. The death penalty is stone age and should be abolished the world over.

  8. 8 Jens
    October 1, 2008 at 19:43

    sheikh,

    really it does not help reforming criminals???? fuuny and i always though killing somebody makes them a better citizen….bit of a way to obviouse statement then.

    plus, i doubt you can reform a child rapist or mass murder…..for some instances the death penalty just a fitting punishment, however cruel and unusal it may be, because some crimes are simple beyond the term of cruelty.

  9. 9 Jessica in NYC
    October 1, 2008 at 19:44

    @ Sheikh Kafumba Dukuly

    “the death penalty is too harsh and does not help in reforming criminals.”
    Hummmm, Isn’t the fact that they’re, dead, uhmmm, reform them?
    I completely understand your stance, but some criminals cannot be reformed…. This will get me stoned on the WHYS blog, but here goes: I am not pro or against the death penalty. […running and hiding].

  10. 10 Venessa
    October 1, 2008 at 19:46

    Jessica & Sheikh ~

    I find child rape deplorable but agree that it does not constitute the death penalty in our legal system. However I am not opposed to the the death penalty and would much prefer my tax dollars pay for that than giving criminals a better standard of living than many other law abiding citizens.

  11. 11 Jens
    October 1, 2008 at 19:52

    @ jess,

    no need to run an hide. i am not really a proponent of the death penalty, UNLESS it is really the befitting punishment for the crime and one is absolutly one hundred percent certain that the accussed did do the crimes…so i am on the fence on it as well, one half of my brain says no it is a cuerl puishment, the others says heck you raped a small child you deserve a slow and painfull death….it’s only human, because emotions play an important and sometimes ‘over’ valued term in such descisions.

  12. 12 Amy
    October 1, 2008 at 19:58

    Hello everyone…. Thanks for your thoughts on the death penalty. I am in agreement with you Jess that I am neither pro nor con death penalty. Some crimes are so horrible and some people cannot be reformed.

  13. 13 Venessa
    October 1, 2008 at 19:58

    Jens ~

    I should have specified I would be for a slow and painful death for the child rapist but that is my emotional reaction.

  14. 14 Jens
    October 1, 2008 at 20:05

    @ venessa,

    you see that is exactly the issue. the law does not allow for the death penalty, but i am sure 90% of the population would support a slow and painfull death for that crime. while this emotion is understandable, i see a much bigger issue in court houses where somebody is accused of such a crime but one is not certain. i feel these emotions will invariable end-up with the condemnation of the accused, simple because the crime is horrible and somebody has to ‘pay” for it….i guess maybe one of the reason for wrongful imprisonment

  15. 15 Venessa
    October 1, 2008 at 20:08

    Jens ~

    I agree with you about that. My biggest concern is unlawful imprisonment and i suspect it does happen quite a bit, especially in very emotional cases. That’s when you hope the legal system will actually work….

  16. 16 Jessica in NYC
    October 1, 2008 at 20:08

    RE: Death Penalty

    @Jens
    It’s difficult, because the ACLU pas shown how high the numbers of (what’s the word) mistakes were made during the court case for people who were put on death row. Also, if even one innocent person has been put to death, that’s too many, let alone 15+% of the cases (recalling the figure memory, so don’t quote me). Having said all this, in my mind there is no justifiable reason mass murders should be sitting contently in jail, watching TV, eating chocolate and having my tax dollars pay for it. Back to the other side, the amount of people on death row in Texas seem absurdly high and problematic. I flip-flop on this issue. I wish I could pick a side and stay on it.

    Again, I have said this before, but I think the courts need reforming more or just as much as our criminal justice system. It’s not working.

  17. 17 Dan
    October 1, 2008 at 20:09

    @Sheikh Kafumba Dukuly
    What do you do with those that cannot be reformed and are simply pure evil?
    Death penalty should remain.

  18. 18 Julie P
    October 1, 2008 at 20:10

    @Nelson,

    Better to have a compute virus named after you than an STD.

  19. 19 Jessica in NYC
    October 1, 2008 at 20:15

    @Venessa
    Absolutely! Not just in this child case, but what about mass murders. Why should tax players pay for them to be in jail.

    I do not have kids, but if I did and this was done to my child, not only would I want a slow and painful death for the perpetrator, but I’d be tempted to for the state to let me pull the proverbial switch. Hummm, turn the other cheek my [—], more like and eye for an eye.

    —-
    @ Julie P
    Glad to read the the Chinese gymnast won “fair and square”.

  20. 20 Venessa
    October 1, 2008 at 20:26

    Jessica ~

    I guess that’s my biggest beef with criminals in jail. While it’s no picnic in prison it’s much easier than some of the problems people abiding laws in the real world deal with. Of course not all criminal cases are black and white but when someone has been proven to have abhorrently broken laws and violated the rights of other people they forfeit their own rights to fair treatment.

  21. 21 Bryan
    October 1, 2008 at 20:31

    Hang ’em high, is what I say. Or just put them in front of a firing squad. It’s quick, clean and they die on their feet – which is far more consideration than they give to their victims.

    I don’t agree with this lethal injection business. I think it’s a far worse way to die than by firing squad. Not that I’m concerned about the criminals, but I think lethal injection was devised to make us believe we are executing people in the most ‘humane’ way possible. But being strapped to a bed while someone probes you to give you a number of injections is, in my opinion, far less humane than simply being put up against a wall and shot, with or without a blindfold.

    For some crimes, there is no sentence but the death penalty.

  22. 22 Amy
    October 1, 2008 at 20:32

    If the death penalty were to be outlawed, then there needs to be major reforms in how these people are treated in prison. For me, no more TV or anything else like that. Maybe you can have a book while you sit in your cell. I don’t care if you feel that you are being treated unfairly because the person two cells down from you who robbed a bank (and no one got hurt) gets to watch American Idol and you don’t.

  23. 23 Julie P
    October 1, 2008 at 20:35

    @Amy,

    Maybe being able to watch American Idol is the real punishement!

  24. 24 Amy
    October 1, 2008 at 20:35

    Bryan,

    Wow – it is a banner day – I am with you on your feelings about the death penalty. WIth science today, DNA testing should be mandatory and every possible lead should be looked into. If that has been done and there is no doubt about your guilt, it could be that the death penalty is the only option. What method is used can be debated from now til the end of time.

  25. 26 Amy
    October 1, 2008 at 20:40

    Julie,

    I thought that maybe watching David Hasselhoff on America’s Got Talent would be the perfect punishment.

  26. 27 Jessica in NYC
    October 1, 2008 at 20:42

    Another lefty to the rescue, from NYT: Buffett to Invest $3 Billion in G.E.

  27. October 1, 2008 at 20:43

    @ Death penalty

    On the flipside, If you are staunch supporter of the death penalty and your loved one happens to get on the wrong side of the law and is due to be executed by lethal injection, firing squad … fill in the blanks. I am sure you would still be a great supporter of the death penalty …

  28. 29 Amy
    October 1, 2008 at 20:43

    Here is something for everyone to ponder. If the death penalty were abolished world wide and we had to come up with something different, what would it be. I’m talking maybe life in solitary confinement listening to Barry Manilow or a lifetime of watching Barney (if you don’t have kids, he is the big purple dinosaur that is incredibly annoying!)

  29. 30 Jessica in NYC
    October 1, 2008 at 20:46

    @ Everyone in the USA

    RE Death Penalty

    Do I get a prize for uniting all Americans in WHYS against the rest of the world? Sorry world. America, I’d like chocolate please or you can just vote for Obama, that will suffice. LOL

  30. 31 Bryan
    October 1, 2008 at 20:47

    Amy, for me watching American Idol would be punishment in itself.

    I’m all for the chain gang. I’m sure there are plenty of ditches to dig. And movies should be a special privilege that you earn through good behaviour. No TV in the cells, but access to the library and a few hours daily exercise, but competitive games also only as a privilege to be earned. Good, basic nutrition with no treats. Opportunity to study for self-improvement and to be a productive citizen on release.

    Forget all this PC leftie crap about turning prisons into luxury hotels

  31. October 1, 2008 at 20:47

    Dutch in red light credit scheme: The Dutch city of Eindhoven is to award credit points to street prostitutes in exchange for good behaviour. *chuckles*

  32. 33 Julie P
    October 1, 2008 at 20:51

    @Amy,

    Re: Death Penalty,

    I tnink being made to listen to Muzak of Pat Boone’s remake of heavy metal classics for days on end, with the lights on, in an all white room deprived of sleep will suffice will drive an inmate to suicide, thus eliminating the death penalty.

  33. 34 Lauren
    October 1, 2008 at 20:57

    wow…. I so did not know that prostitutes had a union….

    And great job Jessica for uniting the American people- Jessica 08′ 😉

  34. 35 Jens
    October 1, 2008 at 20:57

    Jess,

    have some lindt truffels….the death penalty is such an emotional issue and i am always a little disturbed by the fact that the pro-livers are it’s strongest proponent….

    as i said i am on the fence BUT support it in cases of absolutly provable insidences of cruel etc crimes

  35. 36 steve
    October 1, 2008 at 21:01

    @ Jens

    I am very opposed to the death penalty

  36. 37 Jessica in NYC
    October 1, 2008 at 21:01

    @ Venessa & Amy,

    “someone has been proven to have abhorrently broken laws and violated the rights of other people they forfeit their own rights to fair treatment.”

    Agreed. None of us are saying all criminals or people in jail or should be treated inhumanly. We agree, let the crime fit the punishment. For example: serial killers, pedefiles (especially those who travel abroad to raps young kids) that and priest child molesters, serial rapist… [–] ’em.

  37. 38 Julie P
    October 1, 2008 at 21:02

    @Jens,

    I’m of fond of my liver. So, does that make me a pro-liver?

  38. 39 Jonathan
    October 1, 2008 at 21:03

    Well, I think one of our number has as usual seen through to the heart of the matter: The truly compelling question is not the old argument of pro or con the death penalty, but a long, vivid, lovingly deailed, almost fetishistic analysis of the various ways to kill people.

    No, but seriously, we fortunately don’t need to decide about the death penalty today, do we? The case in question didn’t involve a murder. Surely we can agree that if there is to be a death penalty, it should only be for murder. Right? Only a couple of states even had it on the books for anything else. That seems a good place to draw the line.

    OK, now back to hanging vs. shooting vs. drawing and quartering, burning or burying alive, drowning, hmmm, who has a good one? With details, please.

  39. 40 Bryan
    October 1, 2008 at 21:04

    Amy October 1, 2008 at 8:43 pm,

    I’m with you on Hasselhoff. Guy can’t sing.

    Jessica in NYC October 1, 2008 at 8:46 pm

    I think you would surprised to find how many people are for the death penalty in the enlightened West. As the PC social engineers of the left make things easier and easier for the criminals, so the criminals become more emboldened and commit more an more horrific crimes, and societies that no longer have the death penalty start to consider reintroducing it.

    The old argument that the death penalty is no deterrent is easily countered by the observation that an executed murderer never murders again.

  40. 41 Jessica in NYC
    October 1, 2008 at 21:04

    @ Lauren

    “wow…. I so did not know that prostitutes had a union…. “
    Yeah, I heard about it, in Nevada, right? Not in every state.

    PS– thank for the vote of confidence, but I’m much too progressive to run on any political ticket under ANY party the US has… wait until Obama get elected, I’ll be [commenting] on the things I don’t like. I’ll Lauren ’16 sounds good.

  41. October 1, 2008 at 21:04

    @ Death penalty for child rapists,

    There could be other ways of dealing with them, castration and penectomy would be good starting points. 😀

  42. 43 Jonathan
    October 1, 2008 at 21:06

    I wonder what they do in the Dutch city of Eindhoven for bad behavior. Very, very bad…

  43. 44 Jonathan
    October 1, 2008 at 21:08

    Julie, that makes you a liver lover.

  44. 45 Julie P
    October 1, 2008 at 21:10

    Jonathon, what are you doing awake at this hour? For god’s sake the sun is out!

  45. 46 Amy
    October 1, 2008 at 21:11

    Steve,

    What do you propose to replace the death penalty? If it is life in prison, should the convicted be able to have privileges such as watching TV, conjugal visits, etc. Should those convicts be “rehabilitated” and who really decides if they truly are? Should tax payers be forced to foot the bill or should the prisoners work and pay for part of their incarceration. I know that happens in some places. Your thoughts…..

  46. October 1, 2008 at 21:13

    @ Jonathan

    …To earn credit points for street miles, the prostitutes must take part in activities such as workshops where they can learn a range of skills to equip themselves for other work.

    The City council probably have long term goals … 😉

  47. 48 Bryan
    October 1, 2008 at 21:14

    Jessica in NYC October 1, 2008 at 9:01 pm

    We agree, let the crime fit the punishment.

    Sorry I know this is a serious subject but that practically had me rolling on the floor laughing because it meant you get punished first and then you commit a crime to suit the punishment.

    Could be that you have inadvertently given ammunition to those who push for leniency….

  48. 49 Jessica in NYC
    October 1, 2008 at 21:15

    @ Bryan
    Yikes! Correction: Let the PUNISHMENT fit the CRIME. PS–see below for my flip-flop on the issue.
    —-
    @ Jens
    “The death penalty is such an emotional issue and i am always a little disturbed by the fact that the [anti-choice (edit)] are it’s strongest proponent….”
    I know, and those people would be hypocrites.

    “As i said i am on the fence BUT support it in cases of absolutely provable incidences of cruel etc crimes”
    I know, me too. As I said if any US state executives even ONE innocent person, that is too many and capital punishment should be done away with… *sigh* Oh, boy am I glad I am not a governor considering any says of executions or a judge for that matter. I could not do it.

  49. 50 Bryan
    October 1, 2008 at 21:20

    “Hey you.”

    “Who me?”

    “Yeah, you. Cmhere.”

    “Wha….”

    (Grabs him and shoves him in the slammer for fifteen years.)

    Guy eventually comes out and robs three banks, shooting and wounding a teller to make the crime fit his punishment.

  50. 51 Venessa
    October 1, 2008 at 21:20

    I didn’t know that Palin had a record of winning debates. Tomorrow should be interesting.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7643879.stm

  51. 52 Jonathan
    October 1, 2008 at 21:20

    Julie~

    Heh, heh. Just in to grab some more rum. Byeeee!

  52. 54 Bryan
    October 1, 2008 at 21:27

    Jessica in NYC October 1, 2008 at 9:15 pm

    I know, and those people would be hypocrites.

    Ain’t nothing hypocritical about it. I’ve never seen an unborn yet who is guilty of murder or child rape or gang rape, all of which deserve the death penalty.

  53. 55 Jonathan
    October 1, 2008 at 21:27

    The old argument that a murdered person doesn’t kill is easily countered by looking up the word “deterrent” and learning what it means.

  54. October 1, 2008 at 21:29

    @ Venessa,

    “The one thing I found during the [2006] debates was no matter how knowledgeable her opponents were on the issues, it didn’t matter,”
    She has an amazing ability to turn a 45 second answer into a folksy story… she’s never been forced to know the issues.” – Andrew Halcro

    If that is anything to go by, the Joe Biden has his work cut out come Thursday !

  55. 57 Lauren
    October 1, 2008 at 21:30

    Re: Death Penalty

    I have to wonder what crime is worse: one that leaves a victim dead or one that leaves them alive.

    When someone is murdered, it’s the families that want justice/vengeance whatever. When it’s a crime that leaves a victim alive but scarred physically and emotionally, shouldn’t the punishment be just as harsh seeing as the victim is the one seeking the justice?

    Don’t get me wrong, I’m on the fence about capital punishment but I tend to lean towards imprisonment simply because personally, I don’t want to be the person clamoring for someone else’s blood whether it’s justified or not

  56. 58 Bryan
    October 1, 2008 at 21:31

    Jonathan October 1, 2008 at 9:03 pm

    Well, I think one of our number has as usual seen through to the heart of the matter.

    Not only one. At least three or four. You should improve your reading comprehension or wait till you’re sober.

  57. 59 Venessa
    October 1, 2008 at 21:32

    Nelson ~ That caught my attention too. It bothers me if we don’t force candidates to know the issues or answer tough questions. I was a bit annoyed by the debate between McCain & Obama when they danced around some questions….I wonder how much worse it will be tomorrow night and if we can get coherent answers.

  58. 60 Julie P
    October 1, 2008 at 21:39

    @Nelson,

    Charm only goes so far.

  59. October 1, 2008 at 21:44

    @ Julie P

    When it comes to politics, impossible is nothing

  60. 62 Bryan
    October 1, 2008 at 21:44

    Venessa October 1, 2008 at 9:20 pm

    Quite a hatchet job that BBC article did on Palin – interviewing disgruntled, defeated opponents. The headline is a con since the content doesn’t follow it. Also note the respectful tone that is suddenly adopted when they mention Biden. Typical biased BBC reporting.

    If the Republicans win this election, the BBC will go into mourning.

  61. 63 Jonathan
    October 1, 2008 at 21:45

    Nope, just the one lovingly detailed, almost fetishistic ramble about exactly how to kill. Followed by a vivid and equally unlovely fantasy about exactly how to punish.

    Glad I didn’t come across it while sober, actually. A bit creepy.

    Hey, you personally insulted me! [runs off crying to tug at the sleeve of a grownup and complain]

  62. 64 Venessa
    October 1, 2008 at 21:46

    Lauren ~

    I think many people are on the fence and all are very good reasons why. I can recognize why the family wants to seek justice for their murdered relative just as the family that had a child raped wants justice. The victim left to live has a lot of horrible baggage to deal with and can hopefully recover. But the person that dies gets nothing, no choice to try to work through whatever unfair tragedy befell them and in that case why should the person who took that away have the luxury of living at all? It’s one of contemplations I struggle with.

  63. October 1, 2008 at 21:47

    In between: How would you react to this headline :

    Barack Obama and John McCain sign historic power sharing agreement. McCain to become Prime Minister.

  64. 66 Bryan
    October 1, 2008 at 21:52

    Nelson Isibor October 1, 2008 at 9:44 pm

    When it comes to politics, impossible is nothing

    Whassat mean?

    Jonathan October 1, 2008 at 9:45 pm.

    You know very well that I was looking for the quickest and cleanest method of execution. What do you think this means:

    It’s quick, clean and they die on their feet – which is far more consideration than they give to their victims.

    You really are behaving like a playground brat.

  65. 67 Robert
    October 1, 2008 at 21:53

    Jessica

    Regarding the Al Jazeera article. What an upbeat article about Brown. None of the British papers seem to be giving such a positive spin on him. The British press now see Cameron as a PM in waiting and the Brown is the sacrificial lamb for the Labour party come the defeat at the next election.

  66. October 1, 2008 at 21:58

    @ Bryan

    Both pro Democratic and pro Republican media organizations can’t hide fact that Palin has questionable debating skills.

  67. 69 Amy
    October 1, 2008 at 21:58

    Jonathan and Bryan,

    Let’s play nice boys or you both will be given a time out 🙂 I am most assuredly the mean mommy monster – just ask my girls. Time outs are given and enforced.

  68. October 1, 2008 at 22:06

    @ Bryan

    When it comes to politics, impossible is nothing

    Don’t discount any possibility.

  69. 71 Bryan
    October 1, 2008 at 22:09

    Venessa October 1, 2008 at 9:46 pm

    But the person that dies gets nothing, no choice to try to work through whatever unfair tragedy befell them and in that case why should the person who took that away have the luxury of living at all?

    Well, precisely. If it’s premeditated murder with no extenuating circumstances the death penalty is the only appropriate one.

    It’s one of contemplations I struggle with.

    I don’t struggle with it. My sympathies are with the victim and the victim’s loved ones.

    Nelson Isibor October 1, 2008 at 9:58 pm

    Both pro Democratic and pro Republican media organizations can’t hide fact that Palin has questionable debating skills.

    We don’t know much about her debating skills yet but I take your point. Still, if you follow the BBC’s reporting on this election (and I’ve followed it quite closely since the beginning of the primaries in January) you will see that the bias is unmistakable.

    Amy, I’m going to give myself time out. I have overdosed on WHYS today.

  70. 72 Robert
    October 1, 2008 at 22:11

    Death penality.

    I always struggled to decide where I stood on this issue until I went through a quick what if. What if I was the executioner, could I throw the switch and knowingly end the life of somebody who is helplessly chained up in front of me. I couldn’t, therefore I would never ask anybody to do it in my name either. Since then I’ve opposed the death penalty.

    As for a replacement, life imprisonment. As far as I’m concerned arguing that life in prison is too comfortable is not a reason to kill somebody instead. Make prison tougher and uncomfortable. Remind them daily of what they have done and how society views the crime.

  71. 73 Amy
    October 1, 2008 at 22:12

    Bryan,

    Usually my daughter’s time outs around 10 minutes or so (unless they complain about having the time out to begin with). Feel free to take a break but make sure to not leave us entirely 🙂

  72. 74 Bryan
    October 1, 2008 at 22:12

    Nelson Isibor October 1, 2008 at 10:06 pm

    You mean nothing is impossible? That’s the saying.

  73. 75 selena in Canada
    October 1, 2008 at 22:13

    For the people talking about Palin’s inexperience, let me say that it will be impossible to do a worse job than all those experienced people in the Bush government and on Wall Street have done.

    How can anyone talk about experience with a straight face? 🙂

  74. 76 Bryan
    October 1, 2008 at 22:17

    Amy October 1, 2008 at 10:12 pm,

    Thanks but real life is soon going to intervene here and challenge this virtual world.

    Selena I guess that ‘s true.

  75. 77 Amy
    October 1, 2008 at 22:21

    Bryan

    How dare you let real life interfere with the WHYS blog! That is an extra time out for you sir.

  76. 78 Jessica in NYC
    October 1, 2008 at 22:29

    @ Robert

    Re Al Jazeera article on Brown.

    I was wondering about that, because I had not seen anything regarding poll results are the article suggest and I regularly scan your major papers. It implied that the global economic melt-down has rallied the British people behind Brow. That polls show people believe he is the one to get Britain through the financial crisis. What are your thought on Cameron? Everyone, it seems lives and dies at the media’s hands. “What a difference a week makes!” Bold face lies?

  77. October 1, 2008 at 22:29

    Bryan
    October 1, 2008 at 10:09 pm

    @ Bryan

    impossible is nothing, nothing is impossible. Semantics

    The truth is, if you go fishing for bias anywhere, you will find it. The same goes for impartiality.

    We all have our bias, if you can spare a minute, look at this article

    The contents maybe highly debatable but I think it offers some Insight.

  78. 80 Bryan
    October 1, 2008 at 22:30

    It’s an offence warranting the death penalty at the very least.

  79. 81 Bryan
    October 1, 2008 at 22:41

    Nelson Isibor October 1, 2008 at 10:29 pm,

    My last comment related to Amy’s comment.

    I read that article when it was introduced here a few days ago, though it was quite a strain with that fruity red background. I don’t have time now to scout for the points I made on the article. I recall that he made some good points but I was amazed that he seemed to think bias was reserved for the reader or viewer and the journalist was a kind of superior being free of bias. That is ridiculous.

    I don’t go looking for bias but I have come to recognise it over the many years that I have been fighting it. Trust me, the BBC is among the most biased of media organisations. Its own journalists have acknowledged this fact.

    I ain’t got no time now. Gotta run.

  80. October 1, 2008 at 22:51

    selena in Canada October 1, 2008 at 10:13 pm Edit

    “For the people talking about Palin’s inexperience, let me say that it will be impossible to do a worse job than all those experienced people in the Bush government and on Wall Street have done.”
    ……………………………

    If you want to test your theory… vote for McCain.

    There is nothing that I would rather NOT see, than President Palin deciding whether or not our nation should go to war.

  81. October 1, 2008 at 22:54

    Hi all,

    Re: Death Penalty

    WIth science today, DNA testing should be mandatory and every possible lead should be looked into. If that has been done and there is no doubt about your guilt,

    Just not the case, V.

    DNA evidence can be proved false it is only 90% “proof” – science is not yet there where 100% can be said to be the case. DNA evidence can be destroyed just by the wrong kind of bag is it saved in.

    I have read about so many cases where innocent people are put to death it is astonishing that people are so gung-ho about it. As vengeance yes – we can see why people want their hurt and anger/hatred transposed onto the criminal. But one innocent death is one too many.

    I have children – if, and my God never let this happen, anything should happen to them I can guarantee I would want the worst possible punishment for them. But is that death?

    It comes down to this – is prison a place of punishment or rehabilitation? That is where you have to think first – then you can judge from there. Personally I think it is a place of rehabilitation.

  82. 84 selena in Canada
    October 1, 2008 at 22:58

    All I am saying is everyone thinks there is a need for experience like that of the wise old men in leadership.

    America has already been lead to war by the experience of those wise men! Colin Powell, for example! Well, no one, not even Sarah Palin, could do worse.

    Don’t think I am supporting Palin! The God crowd (whoever they happen to be) gives me the shivers. But it is impossible for Palin to do worse than the experienced men.

  83. 85 Robert
    October 1, 2008 at 23:00

    My thoughts on Cameron.

    Bias Disclaimer. My personal politics are slightly right of center. Therefore I’m roughly in line in Cameron on many things.

    Cameron reminds me of Blair 12-13 years ago. He’s united the party and made them seem fit for government again. He’s willing to listen and has his opponents within the party as part of the shadow cabinet (keep your friends close but your enemies closer).

    He’s challenged the government when it’s been needed, but seems to have stayed away from Punch and Judy politics on the whole (although there have been a few slips along the way, nobody is perfect). He’s also worked with the government when needed to get things done. Gordon Brown cabinet still blame the Tory decisions from 10 years ago for the problems we face now.

    As for exact policies, not much detail has been released, but with the next election likely in May 2010 (the last possible date it can happen) and the world changing weekly it is perhaps too early for the details. But again the general mode of his speeches is that the party is listening at last to what people want, not what the Tories think they should want.

    As he done enough to win? Probably but Brown will have given him a big hand in the victory.

  84. October 1, 2008 at 23:04

    Selena

    not even Sarah Palin, could do worse.

    Not even going to war with Russia?

  85. 87 Robert
    October 1, 2008 at 23:05

    There was a debate yesterday on the scale of the buy outs and debt. The BBC have a nice graphic that put things into perspective. Second set of graphics on the page

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7644238.stm

    Funny I thought that Freddie and Fannie would have been bigger than NR.

  86. 88 Jessica in NYC
    October 1, 2008 at 23:11

    @ selena

    “For the people talking about Palin’s inexperience, let me say that it will be impossible to do a worse job than all those experienced people in the Bush government and on Wall Street have done.”

    *My heart skips a beat* [good thing my dear Fenchie friend, does not get a VOTE. 😛 Ha!] Is there a doctor here, I’m feeling faint.

  87. 89 Robert
    October 1, 2008 at 23:15

    Jessica

    Re Brown strength on the economy. It’s a big lie and people are seeing through it at last.

    We have heard him say for the last decade about him being a chancellor of prudence. Now the hard times starts and all those fiscal rules have been re-written or re interpreted so he can get what he wants.

    He claimed to be able to lead the solution to the worlds economic crisis, but when he was heading to NY, Paulson wouldn’t even meet him.

    He has claimed all the credit for the boom time but blames the world markets for the current problems.

    He pushed us to save for pensions and then removed the non tax status of the pension funds.

    He abolished the 10p tax rate last year because it made the tax system too complex, yet it was him who started it during one of his first budgets.

    He sold his last budget as one that saved the average person tax, but failed to mention that the poorest in Britain would face a significant tax increase (by removing the 10p tax rate) doubling the rate in some extreme cases

  88. 90 Anthony
    October 1, 2008 at 23:17

    Re: Death Penalty

    I’ve been saying it for a long time. Kill them. People like Richard Ramirez, sending appeals to set him free when he would brag about how he got off on killing people slowly, watching them turn white. You can’t reform people like that, and even if you can, should we just let them free after?

    If you’re religious- Kill them and let God judge them

    If you’re an atheist- Kill them, they’re just gonna turn to worm food anyways.

    Either way kill them. I’d shoot Ramirez in the head myself if given the opportunity. It’s just a waste of money to have people like that in prison.

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  89. 91 Jessica in NYC
    October 1, 2008 at 23:22

    @ Robert, (evil Tory :P)

    “As he done enough to win? Probably but Brown will have given him a big hand in the victory.”

    *sigh* I don’t know, we felt that way about Bush. Although Obama is ahead in the polls and will win this election, it has certainly been to close for my comfort. Who would have thought a [beep-a-ty beep] like McCain would have given Obama a run for his money? Beside a lot can happen in 2 years… that’s decades in politics time.

  90. 92 Venessa
    October 1, 2008 at 23:29

    Will ~

    I’m not sure if your comment regarding DNA testing was referred to me but I think it was Amy that mentioned it. I struggle with the death penalty for the very reason you point out – innocent people are executed but as Anthony rightly points out there really aren’t alternatives for someone like Ramirez.

    I don’t have time to go into it now because I have a meeting on the other side of town to get to but I would like to talk about rehabilitation of criminals. What does that really mean and do people believe it really works? I’ve been to some prisons, visited with inmates, employees and people that have been released. From what I have seen I have little faith in “rehab” of criminals; not to say there aren’t people out there that turn it around. Maybe someone on the blog has a little insight they can share….

  91. 93 Venessa
    October 1, 2008 at 23:30

    Jessica ~ A lot can happen in the next 4 weeks…..That is years in politics…

  92. 94 Jessica in NYC
    October 1, 2008 at 23:30

    @ Anthony

    Kill them…kill them…kill the…I’d shoot…”

    If you ever take a trip to NY, can you give me a heads up? Please. I’ll be due for a vacation any where far-far away from you. BTW, WHYS is a gun-free zone. 😛

  93. 95 Robert
    October 1, 2008 at 23:31

    Jessica

    I have voted Labour in the past, when the party occupied a more centrist position so I’m not all that evil.

    On a more serious note. Remember the differences between UK and US elections. We don’t elect a Prime Minister. Either way Brown is unlikely to be Prime Minister for much longer. If Labour losses then obviously Cameron will be PM. If Labour wins however there are enough would be leaders lurking in the cabinent that could force a leadership contest soon after the election. Milliband and Straw seem the most likely people. Neither want the leadership now because they know that they are more likley that not to lose in 2010 and would rather be seen to be rebuilding the party than the captain at the helm as it goes down.

  94. October 1, 2008 at 23:37

    All,

    Let us say that the $700 billion dollar bill doesn’t pass. Can anybody think of a different way to put that kind of money into the economy? If instead of propping up Wall Street to save Main Street, why not cut out t the middle man and ask, “What does Main Street need?”

  95. 97 riddler562
    October 1, 2008 at 23:37

    @ Jessica

    So you’re telling me you don’t think Ramirez should be killed? If not, then why should we let him live?

    When a dog is “bad” and bites a child, we put it to death. That “bad” dog should be put down 🙂

    And I will prob go out there in December if my sister is doing any shows 🙂

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  96. 98 Jens
    October 1, 2008 at 23:39

    selena,

    i think palin can do a lot worse. let’s face it she makes bush look like socrates and aristotle all in one.

    the way she won the debates was by being snide and offesnsive, WITHOUT answering the questions, but brabbling on about some anectdotes…..that is call populisme and might work on some caribou hunters up north (well some down here as well), but is fairly easily picked about, by insisting on an answer. it becaomes clear when the same anecdote is being repeated. up to now both maccain and palin have proven to be good story tellers, an acrynom for liers

  97. 99 Anthony
    October 1, 2008 at 23:39

    @ Dwight

    I know what they (main street) need, to use the “Barter System” again!!! Would anyone like my Xbox 360 to paint my house 🙂

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  98. 100 selena in Canada
    October 1, 2008 at 23:40

    What would you do with 700 billion dollars?

  99. 101 Jessica in NYC
    October 1, 2008 at 23:41

    @ Robert
    Re Brown strength on the economy.

    AH let’s be fair all these yahoos claim to know what;s best for the economy. Admittedly so, I have been focused on what is happening in my back years these past few weeks and have not seen the market in the EU. Bown not being able to meet with Henry Paulson is not a sub, I would not take advice from him on how to balance my check book let alone as an insider to the economy.

    “He has claimed all the credit for the boom time but blames the world markets for the current problems.”
    Maybe I’m jaded, but all the politicians in Washington DC do this. Pass the buck?

    “He sold his last budget as one that saved the average person tax, but failed to mention that the poorest in Britain would face a significant tax increase (by removing the 10p tax rate) doubling the rate in some extreme cases.”
    So you HAVE heard of George Bush, the [–] person holding out White House hostage?

  100. October 1, 2008 at 23:51

    My apologies, V 🙂

    Re Palin debating skills

    If you watch her on her debates to get the Gov job – well…she didn’t debate. She knew she was onto an earner because so many people were frigged off at the other guy.

    She has played the same game with her ill-timed quips of late – she belittles people of the opposition and then cries foul when someone should show any sort of intelligent discussion. She is, after all, anti-intellect.

    Biden, either ripping her a new one or simply staying on topic will make her look a fool. She is, for want of a better term, “white-trash” with a lot of make-up. The conservative and right-wing press are now saying that she is ‘in-line’ with the American people. If that is the case – stop the world and ask America to get off please.

  101. 103 Robert
    October 1, 2008 at 23:52

    Dwight

    The problem I see is that any help you provide directly to people would need to go through the tax system. Unfortunately the ones who understand how to use the tax system to their advantage (via loop holes and accountants) are likely not to be the ones who would need the help.

    Otherwise your just throwing money out through a general method of distribution (say lowering interest rates) which is an inefficient means of spreading money around as even those who don’t need it get it. More that $700billion would be required in this case.

    An easy answer maybe to increase government spending on big projects (contracted to the private sector). Those that loss their jobs could be re-employed quickly by these projects providing a safety net for those effected. The money would then flow from the government, through these new employees to main street. In principle I see the logic of it, but it is likely to cause future problems if your economy becomes dependent on this form of government spending and can’t break free from it, so I probably wouldn’t suggest it as a viable long term solution.

  102. 104 Dennis@OCC
    October 1, 2008 at 23:56

    Good evening Commander Amy and General Bob…Reporting for Duty, Commandant Dennis!!!!!!

    Thursday Night, is the Vice Presidential Debate, I am going to be watching it…I hope it will be entertaining and some comments will be made [and some Friday news will be made].

    Dennis

  103. 105 Dennis@OCC
    October 1, 2008 at 23:58

    @ Selena and everyone else:

    re: selena in Canada::October 1, 2008 at 11:40 pm

    I would not be attending Community College, I would
    be getting myself thru HARVARD, LONDON SCHOOL OF ECONOMICS
    and or a nice “college/university” internationally.

    Dennis

  104. October 2, 2008 at 00:00

    Richard Ramirez & anyone else like him:

    He was and still is a complete and total nut case of the first order! Why aren’t people like him not locked up for his and societies good well before they do any harm?

    Why are the not screened? What is it in society that lets them through the net?

    We do need secure mental hospitals from seriously crazy people like that – but, as has happened over the length of human history, it is easier to kill a mental health patient then treat them or keep them off the streets – it is just a matter of cash.

  105. 107 Robert
    October 2, 2008 at 00:09

    Jessica

    I’ll openly admit that I dislike Brown as a Prime Minister. Blair went against public opinion on many occasions but stuck to his guns the whole time, for which I have a great deal of respect for him. Brown has done so many about turns in the last year I ‘m not sure which direction he’s facing anymore. Too me he represents all that is bad with politicians and has no real good points to shout about.

  106. 108 Amy
    October 2, 2008 at 00:10

    My husband grew up in LA during the whole RIchard Ramirez thing. Ramirez even used the side of his house to hide from police. He wasn’t at home at the time but his younger sister and mother were. Thankfully they were not aware he was there until the police came running through the yard, guns drawn. The surprise and terror they felt was beyond words. My husband is very anti death penalty (mostly for reasons cited by many of lack of concrete proof, not having the eye for an eye mentality) but when it comes to Richard Ramirez, he would have no problem throwing the switch just because of his family’s experience. I can only imagine the feelings of those who were directly affected by that lunatic.

  107. 109 Jessica in NYC
    October 2, 2008 at 00:11

    @ Robert (ex-goody 😀 )

    Cameron appears untrustworthy to me, for starters he wants the UK to sever its alliance with the US and it membership with the EU. Between Jack Straw and David “hottie” Miliband, guess who I’d want as PM? I watched his speech during the Labour Party Conference, twice. 😛 Though, Straw would make for better political jokes. Yes, of course you don’t elect PM, but I simply wanted to make the point that whoever our next President is (Obama) would benefit one party over the other significantly in the UK. Plus, depending how the economy rebounds will also “make or break” Brown. (PS- I’ll pretend Labor is spelled Labour when we speak of the UK.)


    @ Anthony
    Ah, chucks, I’ll be out of town the WHOLE month of December, but I will have Hillary supports meet you at the airport. (Richard Ramirez, horrible! I was just joking with you about your strong views.)

  108. 110 Amy
    October 2, 2008 at 00:14

    Robert,

    If you dislike all the turns that Brown has done lately think about all of the twists and turns Sen. McCain has made. Just in the past few weeks alone talking about the US economy his about faces have made a lot of people here dizzy. Many ignore this fact and that is what, to me, is sad.

  109. 111 Julie P
    October 2, 2008 at 00:18

    @Richard Ramirez,

    Frankly, the guy was a whack job, no doubt about it. Had he gotten a life sentence like the serial killer and cannibal, Jeffery Dahmer, in a state where they do not have the death penalty, Richard Ramirez probably would have been ‘taken care of’ just like Dahmer was with the inmates there.

  110. October 2, 2008 at 00:26

    Re: Banking mess

    Listening to the news… some regulators want to “suspend” market value assessments. That is, they bought all of these now “worthless mortgages.” Worthless, because no one wants to buy them, or has the money or good credit to buy them. Sooo that’s just not fair the owners of these worthless deals are saying… they want MORE !!

    I sure hope this RESCUE BILL goes down in a blaze of laughter and scorn!

  111. 113 Jessica in NYC
    October 2, 2008 at 00:28

    @ Robert

    “Brown has done so many about turns in the last year I ‘m not sure which direction he’s facing anymore. Too me he represents all that is bad with politicians and has no real good points to shout about.”

    LOL–It remind me of a clown we have here named McCain. I agree someone like Brown is hard to take seriously, especially after we all saw him pick his nose several times during the Blair’s speech last year. Also, Brown’s scolding of our congress for failure to pass the $700 billion financial bailout made me wonder if it was “very disappointing” because his wallet was a little thiner.

  112. 114 Dennis@OCC
    October 2, 2008 at 00:44

    @ GUN FREE ZONE:
    That is true….

    @ THE BANKING MESS:
    It is a very sad day, that a has to go out of business …that
    is what happens when you “a bank” makes dumb
    decisions…..

    Dennis

  113. 115 Jonathan
    October 2, 2008 at 00:50

    So I keep hearing from, and about, McCain again lately. I’m assuming this means he “resumed” his campaign after saying he was “suspending” it until the econ. problem got sorted out?

    Funny, I don’t remember the announcement. Anyone else hear it? Yet, I KNOW the credit crunch is badder than ever. Huh. What a drama queen! Apparently he’s done this for years.

  114. 116 Pangolin-California
    October 2, 2008 at 01:12

    @ Death Penalty~ I will agree to the death penalty on the condition that any and all felonies committed by legislators, government executives and officers of the court be subject to the death penalty for ten years before the first ‘civilian’ is killed.

    Since these laws don’t apply to the lawmakers I’m thinking they shouldn’t apply. Arnold Schwarzenegger veto’d a bill that would have provided health care to every Californian the other day and no doubt that will bring more people to an early grave than Richard Ramirez could have done in a dozen years.

    Somewhere money changed hands to get that veto. I want a death penalty for corruption by politicians.

  115. October 2, 2008 at 01:14

    Jon

    McCain never suspended his campaign – he suspended his part in it, which isn’t much.

    The Bail-out – well I must admit I am all for it, I can’t see why any American would be against it!

    For your 700Bn you get a huge stake in Wall St with every single penny being paid back – with a profit. Not only that it will free up the credit market for companies so you can get paid and they then have a credit line – add to that you will have regulation brought back into Wall St.

    Plus, and this was the clincher for me – if Lou Dobbs is soooooooooooo against it, it must be good.

  116. 119 Amy
    October 2, 2008 at 01:26

    I’m stepping away for a little bit but Portland Mike is around to watch over all of you 🙂

  117. 120 Pangolin-California
    October 2, 2008 at 01:28

    @ Financial Bailout~ I’ve heard suggestions that peer-to-peer lending could be used as a means of avoiding corrupt financial institutions and as a means of getting financing. It’s not banking but then banking isn’t banking anymore.

    What do you think?

    On the same note Obama is quoted as saying the bailout is not “a welfare plan for CEO’s.” McCain is saying “the gears of our economy will grind to a halt.”

    Where the heck was the Senate last year on this issue. I still think this is a con pushed on us in a big rush. The big money party is what really runs america. I might support what I think is the slightly less damaging party but I’m not thinking these guys are on MY side either of them.

  118. October 2, 2008 at 01:30

    @ $700 Billion,

    I mean what other ways could they disperse it. For example, This area in the rust belt is dead. We live on the lake, but for years the cities and towns along the lake have snubbed the resources as non-existent. Along the lake we have abandoned factories and/ or high end housing. I have had discussions friends about knocking down the old factories and putting up something more friendly to the sport fishing and tourism industry that has always upheld the area in the slow times. I often site Virginia Beach as a model. The problem is that it would require an investment of about a billion dollars. So there is what I would like to see done with one billion of it.

  119. October 2, 2008 at 01:50

    Will Rhodes

    “For your 700Bn you get a huge stake in Wall St with every single penny being paid back – with a profit.”
    ……………………………..
    I think the key part is the “every single penny being paid back- with at profit,” that doesn’t make sense to many of us.

    The way I see it is that Wall Street bought stocks (“toxic assets”) that were worth about 30% of what they paid for them. When they went to sell them, not only did no one want them, no one had any money to buy them. They are saying now that they want that money back that they LOST by making stupid purchases. They will sell us those worthless papers for 60% percent of what they are really worth. That is a good deal? Hell NO!

  120. 123 Syed Hasan Turab
    October 2, 2008 at 01:53

    This 700 Billion bailout to incmpetant & huge bonus claimer’s dosent sound appropriate. Why not Govt bailout direct to the public by way of compesating to general public then this is there choice to whome they trust they will invest..
    This is Govt duty to publish a report about these failourers & detailed investigation just to buildup public trust.
    Time to quet with Credit card’s brutel behaviour & public retirement money, why not Govt support the house owner;s instead of criminal’s of USA. Govt belongs to public not to few Corporates, this is a critical time for US Congress & Senate to whome they have to support?

  121. 124 Jonathan
    October 2, 2008 at 01:53

    @Will

    McCain ANNOUNCED that he was suspending his campaign. Not just his part in it. He went on and on: “I’m suspending my campaign” was a pretty definitive statement. His campaign made a big to-do about pulling TV ads, etc. I even saw a leaked document about how to work the “campaign suspension” into the campaign. He was not going to go to the debate Friday until the bailout passed, until he did.

    I haven’t heard anyone on any side of the bailout claim that “every single penny will be paid back.” Let alone a profit. No economist, no congressman, not even Bush. Have you? Closest I’ve hard is someone saying, the numbers are so fuzzy that we don’t know, and hey, we MIGHT even make a profit, and wouldn’t that be wacky. The real estimates are we’d recover somewhere between nothing and everything. Remember, nobody knows what they’re worth; that’s the problem.

    Nothing Lou Dobbs hates can be all bad, but let’s not kid ourselves.

  122. 125 Tom D Ford
    October 2, 2008 at 01:57

    Around 1960-61 there was a propaganda film going around in the public schools in the USA, about the Domino Theory. The Domino Theory was that we had to get involved heavily in South Vietnam because if they went Communist then the rest of Asia and then the entire world would fall like a line of dominoes to Communism. It was pure fear-mongering propaganda and I watched it in school and fell for it. The Domino theory was later proved totally wrong.

    Now the garbage propaganda film making the rounds is something called “Obsession”. It is just the latest from our right-wing extremists; let’s remind ourselves that early in his first term, Bush declared a new Crusades against Muslims. Our right-wingers depend on fear-mongering to keep their ignorant base in line, fearful and willing to give up our freedoms and liberties to keep our Conservative Republicans in power.

    I fell for the Domino Theory film when I was a child, and now that I have learned how to recognize such productions as just fear-mongering garbage, I want to let people know that this “Obsession: Radical Islam’s War Against The West” is just more propaganda that should be rejected completely.

    Critical Thinking Skills are the best answer to junk like that, and I encourage their use.

  123. 126 Jonathan
    October 2, 2008 at 02:07

    @Tom

    So tell us about “Obsession”–what does it say, why is it wrong, when and where did you see it, etc.? (I remember that the domino theory didn’t come true 30 years ago.)

  124. 127 Dennis@OCC
    October 2, 2008 at 02:16

    Hi!

    Re: THE EU HAVING TROUBLE WITH THE MONITORS …
    I already figure that out,

    Re: SPAIN’S ARRESTS OF CHILD PORNOGRAPHERS….
    That is good, and i am very grateful that the criminal justice
    system, will have to punish them if they are guilty of this horrible
    crime….

    Dennis

  125. 128 Jonathan
    October 2, 2008 at 02:20

    Oops, I meant to add that, yes, exactly–critical thinking is our bulwark against dangerous delusion, propaganda, and manipulation of all kinds.

  126. 129 Kelsie in Houston
    October 2, 2008 at 02:22

    Senate passes bailout bill.

  127. 130 Bob in Queensland
    October 2, 2008 at 02:30

    Good morning all!

    I’m very pro-liver. I particularly like it lightly seared with some crispy bacon and some red onion marmalade.

    As for the death penalty, my big objection in not with the penalty itself but rather with the rest of the criminal justice system. If you can find me a system which absolutely guarantees that no innocent person is EVER convicted, then I’m willing to debate the rights and wrongs of the death penalty. Until such time, I can’t accept the possibility of error–as somebody has already said, even one innocent person put to death is too many but history shows that such errors are far from unusual. It’s not like the innocent person who has been executed can be released and given compensation.

    Funnily enough, this is an area where I’ve never had a response from the advocates of the death penalty. Do you really think that the state sponsored murder of multiple innocent people is a “price worth paying”?

  128. October 2, 2008 at 02:33

    Just curious: Is it true that the Senate has just started to vote on the bailout?? It is 9:30 pm. EDT. I thought that they were upposed to begin voting at 7 p.m. EDT. Can anyone clarify? Does anyone have access to CSPAN?

  129. 132 Kelsie in Houston
    October 2, 2008 at 02:35

    @Pink:
    An amendment to the bill passed 74-25–if the amendment passes, it is assumed (usually correctly) that the bill itself will pass. About the time: my guess is debate ran long; the Senate is more relaxed on that than the House.

    The BBC:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7647622.stm

    CNN:
    http://money.cnn.com/2008/10/01/news/economy/senate_rescuebill2/index.htm?cnn=yes

    The Wall Street Journal:
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122286874792094117.html

    (sorry, Nelson! I know they’re messy–I was in a hurry!)

  130. October 2, 2008 at 02:38

    Jon – I agree with you – I was just being factious. 😕

  131. October 2, 2008 at 02:43

    Mike –

    If it is in-built into the bill where Wall St HAS to pay back every penny – it is a loan rather than a gift. If you also have interest on that, which you should, you make a profit.

    I can’t see anything wrong with that. 🙂

  132. 135 Bob in Queensland
    October 2, 2008 at 02:46

    Re: “Obsession” DVD

    Some 28 million copies of “Obsession” have been distributed free with newspapers in the USA–almost all of them in the “swing states”. Clearly this opens the producers and distributors to the accusation that the DVD is part of a fear campaign to encourage a pro-right vote.

    The DVD itself was funded and produced by an organisation called “The Clarion Fund” which was founded in 2006 with the stated mission “to educate Americans about issues of national security. ”

    According to the incorporation papers of the Clarion Fund, they are based at the same address as Aish Hatorah, an Israeli organisation. The three founder members of the Clarion Fund were or are employees of Aish Hatorah and Raphael Shore, head of the Clarion Fund, is still an employee of the Israeli organisation.

    Not exactly an unbiased source then.

  133. 136 Bob in Queensland
    October 2, 2008 at 02:49

    @ Will

    Re: $700 billion loan payback

    …but isn’t the crisis we’re presently in caused because the people who will receive these loan are insolvent and unable to meet their commitments…i.e. they’re defaulting on loans?

  134. 137 Julie P
    October 2, 2008 at 02:54

    Here is the PDF of the bill the Senate just passed. It’s a 451 page document with three inch margins on either side and 20 font.

    http://money.cnn.com/2008/10/01/news/pdf/index.htm

  135. 138 Dennis@OCC
    October 2, 2008 at 03:25

    Whoever predicted the bill would be defeated! Was wrong….It was pass…

    That means, another question on my next Political science class test…..

    Dennis 😉

  136. October 2, 2008 at 03:25

    134 Bob in Queensland October 2, 2008 at 2:46 am
    Re: “Obsession” DVD
    According to the incorporation papers of the Clarion Fund, they are based at the same address as Aish Hatorah, an Israeli organisation. The three founder members of the Clarion Fund were or are employees of Aish Hatorah and Raphael Shore, head of the Clarion Fund, is still an employee of the Israeli organisation.

    This is so disappointing. Aish is one of the reliable sources of information about Judaism. I would expect more of a religious group/person than a hateful campaign of misinformation. An attack on a mosque in Ohio has already been blamed on Obsession (though police have rulied it not to be a hate crime).

    initial report

    folow-up

    commentary

  137. October 2, 2008 at 03:29

    Senate passes $700B rescue; House votes lured
    So far, the article does not seem to have any content?

  138. October 2, 2008 at 03:38

    roll call of Senate vote on Amendment S.Amdt. 5685

    roll call of Senate vote on H. R. 1424 As Amended; Paul Wellstone Mental Health and Addiction Equity Act of 2007 (same numbers as above)

    I cannot seem to find a non-PDF format of the amendment yet.

  139. 142 Jonathan
    October 2, 2008 at 03:42

    @Pink~

    I too would HOPE for more of a religious group than a hateful campaign of misinformation. As for EXPECTING it….. not so much.

    [/cynical]

  140. October 2, 2008 at 03:44

    That AP article on Yahoo News seems to have flesh now.
    some excerpts:
    The Senate added $110 billion in tax breaks for businesses and the middle class. [House opposition] were also cheering a decision Tuesday by the SEC to ease rules that force companies to devalue assets on their balance sheets to reflect the price they can get on the market.

    There were worries, though, that the tax breaks would cause some conservative-leaning Democrats who voted for the rescue Monday to abandon it. As revised by the Senate, the package extends several tax breaks popular with businesses. It would keep the alternative minimum tax from hitting 20 million middle-income Americans and provide $8 billion in tax relief for those hit by natural disasters in the Midwest, Texas and Louisiana.

    Sen. Bernie Sanders of Vermont, an independent who’s a self-described socialist, said the rescue was fundamentally unfair. “The masters of the universe, those brilliant Wall Street insiders who have made more money than the average American can even dream of, have brought our financial system to the brink of collapse,” Sanders said, and are demanding that the middle class “pick up the pieces that they broke.”

  141. 144 Dennis@OCC
    October 2, 2008 at 03:46

    Remember The VICE PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE is coming….

    I will be watching it….

    Good Night, my friends….
    Dennis

  142. October 2, 2008 at 03:57

    Bob

    Not Wall St, this is who this loan is going to. And to relax credit so many things can be done.

    What has been happening over the days is that leaning has been drying up unless you have a perfect record to take out a loan. What we do know, the world over, is that not all loans were given to those who had a perfect record – if that was the case the crisis wouldn’t have happened in the first place – but…what is happening now is that it is the small business owner that is waiting to be paid, but still has to pay wages – frugal business practice? Well we would obviously say no – but that is how business is run – you have 30/40.60 days to pay the invoice – what to do then?

    So the credit line has to be backed up – if not, you either shut up shop or ask your workers to wait until you are paid before they can get their wages. That then leads on to those workers not paying the power bill – etc, etc.

    With this loan/bail-out that gives some room to manoeuvre. Will it off set a full blown recession? I don’t think it can – but it will make it a little less longer than what it would have done. Nobody paid, no taxes, no VAT/sales tax that means no governmental income and the whole thing grinds to a halt – then it won’t be Wall St – it will be the ordinary bloke on the street.

  143. 147 Jonathan
    October 2, 2008 at 04:12

    @Will
    You were kidding me? Aw, don’t do that! This thing is already so complicated…. 🙂

    @Pink~
    You can’t read PDFs?

    @Bob
    LOL @ your liver recipe. A bit “Silence of the Lambs”–all you need is fava beans and a nice Chianti. Re death penalty, yes, I fear that fans of state killing are indeed willing to accept the occasional mistake as cost of doing business. They’re surely aware of the record. Many even want to REDUCE the appeals along the way! It’s pretty horrible to read the details–trials where the defense atty. was asleep and/or drunk, the judge was asleep, etc. For my part, I’d like the state not to kill my fellow citizens even if it could be 100 perfect and certain and fair. It’s just not moral or useful. It doesn’t save money; it costs much more. It doesn’t deter. It’s been studied to death (ugh) and we know all this. Yet it appeals to an unlovely instinct in the dark part of the soul. It cheapens and lowers us all, as slavery stained everyone, even those who didn’t own slaves.

  144. 148 Jonathan
    October 2, 2008 at 04:26

    @Will

    Very nice bailout explanation, yours of 3:57 a.m. I especially liked the part about “no governmental income”–almost sounded worth it, except for the part about shutting down the real economy too.

    From what I read and hear (in my vast variety of news sources there, Katie, I read all of ’em), the bailout will turn a dreadful and fearsome crisis into just another recession. If we’re lucky. It could be worse. Oh, and they added big tax cuts, hooray.

    I just heard that AT&T is having trouble raising money. AT&T! Yikes! And GE just today scraped up a few billion with a special new stock issue, or two–I think a common and a preferred–and a deal with Warren Buffett.

  145. October 2, 2008 at 04:30

    PDFs: I am able to access them at a public computer. If the bailout amendment is as short as some are describing it, then it should not be a problem to copy-paste it to my email, send it to myself, and then read it at home, right?

  146. 150 Bob in Queensland
    October 2, 2008 at 04:31

    @ Jonathan

    It took me years to realise that “fava beans” is the American name for what I call “broad beans”–quite like them too! However, the Chianti should be a “Classico”, perhaps a 2002 Marquesi di Frescobaldi.

    As for the death penalty, I’m with you in having objections about both the morality and effectiveness. However, my point was that the issue of error has to be resolved in my mind before we even start to discuss the possibility.

  147. 151 Amy
    October 2, 2008 at 04:36

    Count Iblis,

    I haven’t been able to watch much of the CBS interview but wow, watching the two VP candidates side by side really does show the gap of knowledge. Talk about comparing apples to apples.

  148. 152 Bob in Queensland
    October 2, 2008 at 04:38

    @ All (but especially non Americans)

    I’ve been meaning to post this link for ages but (probably due to age and advancing senility) kept forgetting.

    For a good (and, as near as possible, unbiased) overview of American politics I can recomment REAL CLEAR POLITICS. They are a very useful way to cut through much of the hyperbole, spin and outright lies.

    While on the topic, I notice we haven’t heard about poll results for a while. I notice that the average of national polls now gives Obama a 5.3% lead in the popular vote and a 96 seat lead in Electoral College votes. Still 5-ish weeks and 3 debates to go, but it’s getting interesting.

  149. 153 Julie P
    October 2, 2008 at 04:53

    @Shirely,

    Just copy paste the hyperlink and send it to yourself.

  150. 154 Julie P
    October 2, 2008 at 04:54

    @Will,

    Just so you know we don’t have VAT.

  151. 155 Bob in Queensland
    October 2, 2008 at 05:17

    @ Julie P

    …which is probably why Will phrased it “VAT/sales tax” since most states do have a sales tax.

  152. 156 Jonathan
    October 2, 2008 at 05:28

    @pink~

    Well, if 451 pages is what you call short. Extracting text from PDFs can be tricky; I seldom have occasion to do it and I’m not sure it’s ever really worked for me.

    @Bob

    Yes, I got your point. I also think only murder should be a capital crime (if anything is). The conversation on TP yesterday got pretty scary; a bidding war among some of our more bloodthirsty brethren ended with almost everything on the far side of jaywalking meriting the chair, needle, rope, or firing squad. (The discussion started when the Supreme Court declined to reconsider its ruling that a crime other than murder shouldn’t carry the death penalty.)

  153. 157 Julie P
    October 2, 2008 at 05:38

    @Bob.

    There is a difference between VAT and sales tax. Sales tax is at the point of purchase where as VAT is a value added tax that is applied at different stages of production. We don’t have VAT here at all, so even VAT/sales tax is inaccurate. I’m trying to prevent an American conservative from hyperventilating when they see VAT in that comment.

  154. 158 Bob in Queensland
    October 2, 2008 at 05:47

    @ Julie P

    re: VAT

    True. In countries with VAT what most consumers see of it it very similar to your sales tax…it’s just an amount added at the point of purchase–sometimes hidden in the price and other times actually added separately.

    However, you’re quite right to point out that VAT is added at other points in the production chain (though, in the UK at least, each time it’s “passed along” the company involved is allowed to deduct the amount from the VAT they own).

    However, Will’s main point–that the credit crunch will eventually lead to revenue shortages for governments–is still valid.

  155. 159 Jonathan
    October 2, 2008 at 05:55

    @VAT

    If anyone cares, VAT is an especially dreadful way to tax, “dreadful” defined as a tax that destructively distorts the market along the way to collecting revenue. For one thing, its structure results in companies growing to gigantic size so they can vertically integrate (make their own components). They’re way too large to be efficient for anything other than minimizing the VAT bite.

    [/taxdork]

  156. 160 Jonathan
    October 2, 2008 at 06:02

    Oops, did I just make myself an “American conservative hyperventilating about VAT?” Kind of, except for the conservative part. But when I saw “VAT/sales tax” I interpreted it as “VAT or sales tax, as the case may be.”

    Alright then, I’ll just be slipping away for a while….

  157. 161 Tom D Ford
    October 2, 2008 at 06:05

    The problem with the Death Penalty is that the state, the People, justify killing People.

    You become that which you abhor!

    No!

    Design a way for killers to live to regret what they have done for all of the rest of their lives, and hopefully teach by example why some aspiring killer should not Kill!

    Doh!

  158. 162 Tom D Ford
    October 2, 2008 at 06:15

    @ Bryan October 1, 2008 at 9:52 pm

    “You really are behaving like a playground brat.”

    Such Sublime Irony.

    I can’t stop giggling.

    Yow!

  159. 163 Bob in Queensland
    October 2, 2008 at 06:18

    @ Jonathan

    Don’t hyperventilate too much! It’s bad for you!

    I also don’t like VAT as a tax but my objection is that it’s labour intensive and a very inefficient way of collecting revenue. I guess it keeps lots of accountants in work (not a primary goal of mine) but it turns companies into tax collectors.

    That said, I’ve never heard of any company vertically integrating to avoid paying VAT–back in my gainfully employed days I was often involved in discussions about this sort of thing and VAT benefits were never a consideration.

    Perhaps the UK is different in this regard but the VAT system there allowed companies to offset VAT collected against VAT paid. If I bought a million quid worth of equipment, the VAT on that was £175,000 and we had to pay that with the invoice. However, when we collected VAT from our customers, the first £175,000 we could keep and not pass to the government. When budgeting for purchases, I could use the non-VAT price since, with this offset, we effectively didn’t pay VAT on purchases. (I’m ignoring the overhead of accounting for all this of course.)

    So, inefficient, yes…but not as market distorting as you say, at least not in the UK.

  160. 164 Julie P
    October 2, 2008 at 06:19

    @Bob,

    The point was taken about tax revenues going down because of the credit crunch. In fact, that has already started happening even before this. There just is not VAT here. I have sat in more than one economics class where VAT has been railed against and in other places. We don’t have VAT and it’s highly unlikely we ever will.

  161. 165 Tom D Ford
    October 2, 2008 at 06:37

    @ Anthony October 1, 2008 at 11:17 pm

    “Re: Death Penalty

    I’ve been saying it for a long time. Kill them.”

    And when you killed the wrong man/woman?

    I’ve served on a Grand Jury and I have signed an indictment for someone who confessed to two murders and I just hope to hell that I did the right thing!

    You cannot “effing” imagine what it is like to to hear only one side of the testimony of a confessed killer and his prosecutors and be left to imagine what his reason was for doing what he did.

    Guy got jail and I got wondering for the rest of my life if I was presented with all of the evidence about the case.

    So.
    No.

    Don’t “Kill Them”. Stick them in prison for the rest of their life and hope that you did the right thing. I could have been wrong and the guy lived but if I was wrong and the guy was killed?

    I have had enough of macho men! I p** on you from high places!

  162. 166 Tom D Ford
    October 2, 2008 at 06:52

    @ # 115 Jonathan October 2, 2008 at 12:50 am

    “So I keep hearing from, and about, McCain again lately. … What a drama queen! Apparently he’s done this for years.”

    OMG, you nailed it!

    “a drama queen! “

  163. 167 Tom D Ford
    October 2, 2008 at 07:08

    @ Bob in Queensland October 2, 2008 at 2:30 am

    “Good morning all!

    I’m very pro-liver. I particularly like it lightly seared with some crispy bacon and some red onion marmalade.”

    Me too. But it has become hard to find liver, chicken hearts, gizzards,and livers, or any other kind of different meats that I used to like. I have not seen liverwurst sausage for years and I used to love it just once in a while.

    Now, elk liver and onions, well that’s bliss. And if it’s fried in bacon grease, well, that’s in the past, but there’s no words for it.

  164. 168 Tom D Ford
    October 2, 2008 at 07:18

    @ Bob in Queensland October 2, 2008 at 2:46 am

    “Re: “Obsession” DVD

    Some 28 million copies of “Obsession” have been distributed free with newspapers in the USA–almost all of them in the “swing states”. Clearly this opens the producers and distributors to the accusation that the DVD is part of a fear campaign to encourage a pro-right vote.

    The DVD itself was funded and produced by an organisation called “The Clarion Fund” which was funded in 2006 with the stated mission “to educate Americans about issues of national security. ”

    According to the incorporation papers of the Clarion Fund, they are based at the same address as Aish Hatorah, an Israeli organisation. The three founder members of the Clarion Fund were or are employees of Aish Hatorah and Raphael Shore, head of the Clarion Fund, is still an employee of the Israeli organisation.

    Not exactly an unbiased source then.”

    Bob, you’re far better with words and sources than I am and I appreciate that you posted this clarification.

  165. 169 Nofal Elias
    October 2, 2008 at 07:30

    Regarding VAT in UK

    Is quiet simple, it is very similar to the sales tax in US. Only the end customers pays VAT @17.5% to the goverment. Businesses can claim back all the VAT paid to their suppliers/services charged to them to run the business.
    eg As a business, I buy a TV for £100 from my supplier and charged £17.50 VAT.
    and I sell the TV to my customer say for £100 as well and charge the customer £17.50.
    The goverment will only get £17.50 and not £35.

    As my business doesn’t have to pay VAT at all when I fill my VAT return, as I collected £17.50 and paid £17.50 so the balance is zero.

    My TV supplier who collected £17.50 from me will pay the goverment.

    Sounds complicated but it is not.

  166. 170 Tom D Ford
    October 2, 2008 at 07:33

    @ Jonathan October 2, 2008 at 4:12 am

    “… For my part, I’d like the state not to kill my fellow citizens even if it could be 100 perfect and certain and fair. It’s just not moral or useful. It doesn’t save money; it costs much more. It doesn’t deter. It’s been studied to death (ugh) and we know all this. Yet it appeals to an unlovely instinct in the dark part of the soul. It cheapens and lowers us all, as slavery stained everyone, even those who didn’t own slaves.”

    Better words than mine and better than I imagined from you, I think that I have misjudged you and I apologize.

  167. 171 Pangolin-California
    October 2, 2008 at 07:57

    @ Tom~ I charge you with internet cruelty to broke gourmands; “elk liver and onions fried in bacon fat” indeed. YOU Sir, are a braggart.

    Poor little me I once worked in a charcoutarie for a season and was able to taste various pates, terrines (sp?) sausage and other delicacies. While I am very pro-liver I must say it doesn’t compare to duck kidneys or lamb sweetbreads.

    b.t.w. The Trader Joe’s chain sells an acceptable liver pate if you must have it. Or all the organ meats are available at your asian butchers.

    Now I have to fish the last of last years grass-fed lamb out of the freezer.

  168. 172 Pangolin-California
    October 2, 2008 at 08:07

    @ Death Penalty~ Just for starters it’s a staggering waste of resources. Death penalty inmates cost about ten times what a life without parole inmates will cost from the moment a prosecutor announces his intention to seek a death penalty charge. Then there is the fact that a dead body contains far less information than a live body and we might want to run these guys through advanced MRIs or prion scans at some point in the future.

    Then there is the fact that the deterrence factor is zero. Life in a concrete box is far more terrifying to many disturbed individuals than death at the hands of law enforcement. Suicide by cop is a frequent phenomena in the US. Far more frequent than state executions.

    Nevermind it’s just flat wrong on a moral basis.

  169. 173 Jonathan
    October 2, 2008 at 08:26

    @ Tom

    Well, thanks very much. I was hoping someone might notice that; I rather liked it. Words is what I do….

    Lucky for you, I don’t know how you judged me, so you’re forgiven.

    [straightening my tie, whistling happily]

  170. 174 Pangolin-California
    October 2, 2008 at 08:33

    @ Palin-Biden debate

    I just read a refreshing idea. Have the debate moderators choose a constitutional amendment at random, perhaps by roll of the dice and ask a candidate to speak about their understanding of it. Then repeat with the other candidate. The official job description of the President and Vice President of the US includes “to protect and defend the constitution.”

    One note: Just list those amendments by number. No prompting if a candidate thinks the 14th amendment restores the right of the american people to buy alcoholic adverntures.

  171. 175 Pangolin-California
    October 2, 2008 at 08:52

    Aack. Darn medicine doesn’t say nothing about blogging. No driving, I got down.

    The last word of my previous post should read “beverages.” It’s a snarky reference to the 21st amendment. The 14th amendment involves citizenship rights but also contains this article:

    4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned.

    I’m looking for the quote but at one point George W. claimed that the US wouldn’t repay the treasury debt to the Social Security trust fund.

  172. 176 Bryan
    October 2, 2008 at 08:58

    Bob in Queensland October 2, 2008 at 2:46 am

    Not exactly an unbiased source then.

    That’s quite an hyopothesis. Just because Israel has been in the front lines against the Islamic Jihad for 60 years it doesn’t follow that someone with links to Israel must be biased about the threat of radical Islam. It’s equally possible that their take on the threat will be more accurate, through being a little closer to it, than someone from Iceland, for example.

    I had another look at the abridged version of Obsession: Radical Islam’s war against the West. It begins with this disclaimer: Most Muslims don’t support terror. This is not a film about them.

    Re the sending out of this DVD prior to the elections, I doubt that it is clear in the minds of Americans whether Obama or McCain would be more able and willing to counter the threat of radical Islam.

    The 12-minute clip is interesting and damning. It’s here:

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6331994107023396223

    (Must do my bit for the Israel Lobby.)

  173. 177 Jonathan
    October 2, 2008 at 08:59

    Warren Buffett is on Charlie Rose talking about the bailout, and I feel much better. He is such a pussycat and such an unpretentious, plain-talking, straight-shootin’ common-sense regular guy.

    He says the economy has had a heart attack, and needs to be resuscitated, and there isn’t time for the paramedics to argue about details–what hospital to take it to, what the treatment plan for the next week should be, whether it should have changed its diet. We need to get the defibrillator on while it’s still breathing. We can argue later. He also says tough times are ahead even if everything works right, but the disaster we’re avoiding would have been far worse.

  174. 178 Jonathan
    October 2, 2008 at 09:07

    @Pangolin

    Yes, or we could engage her in discussion about the “privacy” guarantee in the US constitution, which she mentioned in conversation with Kaitie C., but which does not actually exist.

    Barney Frank, incredibly, is babbling about the federal deficit. The mind reels.

  175. 179 Bryan
    October 2, 2008 at 09:10

    Robert October 2, 2008 at 12:09 am

    Brown has done so many about turns in the last year I ‘m not sure which direction he’s facing anymore.

    I agree. But there is one good aspect to him: he is pro-Israel and has a solid grasp of the problems Israel faces.

  176. 180 Bob in Queensland
    October 2, 2008 at 09:27

    @ Bryan

    Re: Obsession

    One of the quotes in that cut-down video clips says “a child isn’t born hating, it has to be taught”. That’s my objection to this DVD. It’s sole purpose is to teach Americans to hate Muslims. It’s not investigative journalism looking into an issue; rather it is a propaganda piece designed to show Islam in the worst possible light and, at the same time, create an atmosphere of fear and hatred in an effort to affect the outcome of the American election.

    Yes the clip is damning. Damning of the vested interests who try to use fear and paranoia as a political tool.

    Just an example of why the content of the DVD is suspect: every arabic clip shown has a super crediting the translation to “MEMRI”. The Middle East Media Research Institute is, itself, a controversial organisation with a reputation for selective and inaccurate translations. Three of the original founders were former members of Military Intelligence in the IDF. My arabic is practically non-existant so I can’t comment on the translations seen–but I certainly won’t trust them automatically.

    Using Obsession to inform you of the Islamic threat is like trusting a Democrat-produced video to tell you about the Republican threat.

  177. 181 Bryan
    October 2, 2008 at 09:39

    Tom D Ford October 2, 2008 at 1:57 am

    Now the garbage propaganda film making the rounds is something called “Obsession”. It is just the latest from our right-wing extremists;

    Have you seen it? There are quite a few quotes in it from people on the inside, like like the daughter of a “martyr,” and ex-Palestinian terrorist Walid Shoebat. The latter is particularly interesting with the parallels he draws between Nazism and Islam. This is backed up by footage in the film and testimony from someone who was a member of Hitler Youth. You should do some research before coming to your confusions.

    Tom D Ford October 2, 2008 at 6:15 am,

    Your comment adds nothing to the debate. At least when I made it I was responding to a personal attack and it was at the tail end of a comment I was making. Perhaps instead of snide remarks and fake merriment you should have a look at the video. It might help your debating skills if you knew what you were talking about.

  178. 182 Nofal Elias
    October 2, 2008 at 09:50

    We need to differentiate between terriorst and freedom fighters. You don’t hear on the news much of operations carried out by the freedom fighters in Iraq against the occupation force, you only hear about the terriorst blowing up cars killing civilians, to whom these terriost answer to, what are their objectives, please don’t say shia against suni … etc, their masters have hidden poltical agenda.
    I hope these individuals who carry out operations against innocent Iraqies will burn in hell, and Saddam was right to execute them all without any merecy.

  179. 183 Bryan
    October 2, 2008 at 10:09

    Bob in Queensland October 2, 2008 at 9:27 am,

    Bob, I though you were being tongue in cheek with that comment at first until I realised you were being serious. Why is someone in Israeli military intelligence be immediately suspect to you and where is the proof that Memri’s translations are inaccurate? Furthermore, why would you imagine there is the slightest need for inaccurate translations of what these raving lunatic clerics and leaders like Nashrallah are saying? They damn themselves with their own words.

    It’s sole purpose is to teach Americans to hate Muslims. It’s not investigative journalism looking into an issue; rather it is a propaganda piece designed to show Islam in the worst possible light and, at the same time, create an atmosphere of fear and hatred in an effort to affect the outcome of the American election.

    No, they make a clear separation between radical Islam and the rest of Islam and they make the disclaimer I mentioned. Besides some of the people they quote were themselves caught up in radical Islam. Do you imagine those people don’t know what they are talking about?

    Your post is a distortion of what is actually going on. Radical Muslims are the ones endlessly pumping out the hatred. And you accuse those who expose the hatred of doing the same thing?

    Re being designed to affect the elections, the movie is quite a few years old. And do Americans automatically assume that Democrats would be softer than Republicans on terror? That question I guess would be best put to the American contributors here

  180. 184 Vijay
    October 2, 2008 at 10:20

    In India it is a national holiday,the birthday of Mahatma Gandhi and the UN International Day of Non-Violence.
    I wonder what he would make of the communal violence in Orissa and Karnataka,the Indian Mujahadeens activities , bomb blasts in Tripura , J and K conflict ,Maoist naxalite insurrection which run from nepal in the north to Sri Lanka inthe south and the forcable aquisition of farmers land on behalf of companies such as Tatas.
    Africa is supposed in a mess,a basket case but it receives 54 8illion US$ of foreign investment and India is supposed to be booming but receives only 27 billion US$ dollars of Foreign direct investment.Africa has a population which is about 922 million and India has a popluation of approxiamately 1200 million.

  181. 185 Jonathan
    October 2, 2008 at 10:45

    Well, I’m off to bed, so long Bob. I have a ringing in my ears like one note being played, endlessly. Do you ever get that?

  182. 186 Bob in Queensland
    October 2, 2008 at 10:46

    @ Bryan

    Why do I immediately suspect somebody from Israeli intelligence? For the same reason I wouldn’t trust somebody from Hamas to give me an accurate opinion of Israel…or John McCain to explain Barrack Obama’s economic policy.

    Proof of MEMRI’s controversial stance and selective/inaccurate translation? I’ll leave you to do your own Googling but you’ll get many pages when you enter “MEMRI” in the search. There are lots of firm examples of their bias.

    I completely agree with you that radical Islam pumps out a steady diet of hatred against the USA and Israel but how does that fact prove that this film isn’t the same thing in reverse? Despite the disclaimers you mention, this DVD has been used by many (including at least one poster on this blog) to justify a hatred of all Muslims.

    As for the effect on the US elections, first off the organisation that produced this DVD was only formed in 2006 (about the time candidates were throwing their hats into the ring) so the production isn’t all THAT old. The DVD itself may not be designed to affect the election result, but the strategy of giving it away for free in swing states certainly is.

  183. 187 Bob in Queensland
    October 2, 2008 at 11:05

    Good morning Helen!

    The Dignitas story you mention is a good one. The World Service had a long interview with Debbie Purdy (the woman asking for clarification of the law) a week or two ago and it really is a heart-rending story.

    THIS IS THE UPDATE on her story but the basic summary is that, even accepting assisted suicide is illegal, she has had trouble getting assurances her husband won’t be prosecuted for, say, helping her onto the train to Switzerland. Knowing you have a degenerative disease must be bad enough–having this level of legal and bureaucratic uncertainty is unacceptable.

    A worthwhile topic.

  184. 188 Paul
    October 2, 2008 at 11:13

    re: financial stuff up

    why does the government not instruct the banks to credit every personal homeloan with a figure – say $50 000 which the government will pay to the banks. It gives the banks liquidity; it’s government working for the people and not buying wall street; Ok – not everybody gets 50 thou, but at least it isn’t 700 billion given to a few bankers! Sub-prime mortagages become prime – sure some will still lose their homes, but suddenly a vast number would be able to meet repayments. The bank’s assets would become worth something again. And it’s a verifiable procedure which government can easily check – maybe they can employ some of the bankers losing their jobs to check their former colleagues.

    Or is this just too simplistic for the complicated financial instruments that wall street genuises put together?

  185. 189 Bryan
    October 2, 2008 at 11:17

    They didn’t make the DVD, as far as I know. And In fairness, if you are claiming that Memri is fraudulent, you should be providing the proof, not me. How do you know these sites you have Googled are not simply anti-Israel hate sites?

    Let’s employ some common sense here. When you see video of Nasrallah or another crazed sheik yelling with bulging eyes and clenched fists in front of an enormous, baying crowd why would you imagine the translation is somehow twisting or exaggerating his words? Also, can anyone find any contradiction between what the regular, and not pro-Israel media, like CNN report on Nasrallah and Memri’s translations?

    And when you see video of Hezbollah doing the Nazi salute, don’t you believe the evidence of your own eyes?

  186. 190 Katharina in Ghent
    October 2, 2008 at 11:48

    Oh My God! Price question: Who’s the chap looking like John McCain?

  187. 191 selena in Canada
    October 2, 2008 at 11:51

    The truth according to Karl Denninger

    http://market-ticker.denninger.net/

  188. 192 Roberto
    October 2, 2008 at 12:05

    RE “” Do you really think that the state sponsored murder of multiple innocent people is a “price worth paying”?””
    ——————————————————————————————————–

    ——– It’s a dilemma only because of human frailty, error, and propensity to go along to get along with any system until such time as a crisis forces a change.

    The alternative is the state sponsored release of multiple guilty murderers or life without parole. I’m reminded of the Kenneth McDuff case in Texas where a convicted death row murderer was released by the parole board after the US Supremes overturned the death penalty, leaving him serving life with possible parole for raping/murdering 3 teens.

    Check his wiki profile. Known as the “Broomstick Murderer,” you’d think that would’ve clued in the parole board to his nature, yet he was released to go on another spree. His case culminated when he abducted a tiny waif of a girl at a carwash next to a home I used to live at only years before. She was washing her car early one morning when he swooped in to throw the tiny girl into the back of a Mustang as the driver sped off.

    Her body was recovered a couple of years later after he became a suspect in more murders and was arrested along with the guy who drove the car. The girl was strangled after he used her up and buried in a remote area.

    It strikes me that the anti and pro death penalty could take a cue from the pro life/choice folks, some of whom work together on common ground ways to prevent the neccessity of the choice. I’m all for major criminal justice reform as the system has become an albatross, but just abolishing the death penalty alone does nothing to protect the public.

  189. 193 Robert
    October 2, 2008 at 12:14

    Paul

    Your idea really lacks details to proberly comment on. Some questions I may ask are (and tried to show the pitfalls)

    What happens between a single person with a sub prime mortage on their own and a couple with the sub prime mortage? Should the couple get twice the amount for paying twice the tax? Or should they get the same simple for having a mortgage?

    What about those of us who have no houses? Should we get a sudden cash bonus that is more than the average salary? Think of the choas it would cause to the job markets! But then if only homeowners get it it you further cement the haves and have nots on the property ladder using our own tax doing so.

    Should the payout be scaled on how big your mortage is or how much tax you paid? Either way, that money would flow to those with the biggest houses or biggest salaries, who are the least likely to be suffer from sub prime. But then blanket bail outs will likely not give enough to those who need it and they still lose their home and too much to those that don’t have a problem to start with.

    Finally, and I’m sorry I don’t intend to insult people , but if somebody lacked the forthought and took a mortage out that was plainly beyond their ability to pay, would they really have the savvy to place that money asside for the mortage? Or are we just delaying the problem by another couple of years.

  190. 194 Pangolin-California
    October 2, 2008 at 12:21

    @ Nofal~ If you want to understand how Iraqi society fell apart so quickly after the US occupation you must study the left’s critique of John “Death Squad” Negroponte’s involvement in the Central American dictatorships of the 80’s. The bombings, the disappearances, the tortured bodies and the rise in ethnic violence are all out of the US’s anti-socialist playbook. All of this is still common in US client states in South America.

    It wasn’t sufficient to get rid of Saddam. Iraqi’s had to see themselves as dependent and grateful for the US occupation.

    @ Bryan~ Surely you must realize that the internet is riddled with mouth-foaming Israeli activists crying wolf on every board that doesn’t throw them into the troll cage. When I see a raving mullah on a video clip I have to wonder “why is that man angry?” When I learned of Israeli destruction of farmland and wells of the Palestinians I started to understand. When I saw the wall the Israeli’s are putting up to partition the West Bank and steal land I knew the truth.

    Israel learned much in the camps of the Nazi’s. I’m not thinking it was peace and compassion. They learned walls, and camps and barbed wire. They learned house searches, routine humiliation and the power of the gun. What they didn’t learn is to judge when to stop.

    It’s a good lesson that; knowing when to stop.

  191. 195 Robert
    October 2, 2008 at 12:21

    Ops, that last entry was supposed to read properly comment not proberly comment. Spell check without a grammer check is a pretty useless tool.

  192. 196 Pangolin-California
    October 2, 2008 at 12:30

    @ Finance~ I keep hearing little bits on the BBC World service about how France and Spain have spared themselves the bulk of the pain of the financial crisis. It appears that old fashioned, erm, banking (lacking another term) results in stable and reasonable financial markets.

    I’m shocked. To hear the US caterwailing in DC and Wall Street you’d think there had been no other alternative to traunches, credit default swaps and other toxic financial instruments.

    Why aren’t I hearing more about SANE BANKING instead of bailouts of a bunch of whingers.

  193. 197 Robert
    October 2, 2008 at 12:37

    Pangolin

    Not sure about the Euro zone. I’m just reading an article in the Telegraph that seems to say Europe is on the brink as well.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/3118994/Financial-Crisis-So-much-for-tirades-against-American-greed.html

    However as for old style banking, Britians building societies that stayed as building socities seem to be doing reasonable ok. (sorry I don’t have a link as yet for that statement)

  194. 198 Pangolin-California
    October 2, 2008 at 12:46

    @ Roberto~ Could you spare us the ghost stories for three weeks or so. It would be so much more fun closer to Halloween. Yes, life without parole should be available for exceptional cases. Yes, the court system will make errors that will kill people. Drivers make errors that kill far more people but all of us keep driving don’t we? A shockingly large number insist on driving to bars; and then driving home again drunk.

    The nastiest thing about death penalty advocates is that many of them seem to take ghoulish glee in details of murders and executions. A person could get to thinking that it really didn’t matter to who got executed as long as somebody did. Preferably in public, with a wood chipper.

    Do you ever wonder if it has something to do with all those statues of the torture-execution of that Jewish guy? Maybe there’s a bit of an attraction to that.

  195. October 2, 2008 at 13:08

    This may sound silly, but is Lubna around? Are you ok? Please post something.

    A couple of non-bailout stories:
    Taiwan says melamine found in Nestle milk powders

    Study traces AIDS virus origin to 100 years ago

  196. 200 Nofal Elias
    October 2, 2008 at 13:24

    @Pangolin

    Are you saying that US is behind all the bombings in Iraq, that is impossible, I am sure Steve will strongly disagree with you.

  197. 201 Shaun in Halifax
    October 2, 2008 at 13:30

    Morning all.

    Just a quick question for the US posters.

    Let’s assume for a second that I was a non-party-affiliated US citizen. And let’s also assume that I don’t believe that America’s political problems stem from ‘who’ is in the Whitehouse, but rather from the toxic political culture in Washington. And let’s also assume that I believe that no matter which candidate wins the election, he will be hamstrung by this ‘me-first-country-second’ culture. How should he vote? Spoil the ballot? Ron Paul?

  198. 202 Vijay
    October 2, 2008 at 13:33

    @Helen
    What do YOU mean by the fourth estate?

  199. 203 Paul
    October 2, 2008 at 13:35

    Robert

    I totally agree my vague idea lacked detail. But just the thought of actualy trying to help people as opposed to a few on Wall Street is more my point I think.

    And I definitely agree that the consumerism culture in the West is hugely to blame. Ordinary people are as much to blame for over extending themselves as are the people who gave them the loans without adeuate checks and balances.

    So put 2 000 dollars into every individuals account in the states! Totally impractical – multiople accounts, etc etc – but better than giving 700 billion to the genuises who started the whole thing off.

    Basically – Wall Street billionaires and some minor shareholders of these banks and finance houses benefit by 700 billion. Nice One – can I get a job like that

  200. 204 Pangolin-California
    October 2, 2008 at 13:42

    @ Nofal~ I’m not saying that the US is behind all of the bombings in Iraq. I’m saying that John Negroponte arrived in Iraq and ethnic cleansing arrived shortly afterwards. I’m sure the two events were as coincidental as they were in Central America.

    You can come to your own conclusions.

  201. 205 Robert
    October 2, 2008 at 13:50

    Paul

    If ordinary people are as much to blame as the banks, why should they recieve the $2000 in their account vs. the $700b to the banks.

  202. 206 Pangolin-California
    October 2, 2008 at 13:52

    @ Shaun~ Well, the Democratic Party has a faction in it that believes that you should be picked out of the road, should you be waylaid by thieves, dusted off, fed and your wounds treated. They have hold of one of the donkey’s ears and occasionally are rewarded with a change of course.

    The Republican Party is largely composed of people that feel that you should be arrested and put on the chain gang for vagrancy. In the evening you will be treated to prayer meetings before meals. Those that don’t pray to the satisfaction of the proctors don’t eat.

    The other parties mean nothing. They have as much power to change events as a gnat in a hurricane.

    Figure it out.

  203. 207 Paul
    October 2, 2008 at 14:02

    Robert

    If there has to be a cake to rescue the mess rather everybody gets a little cut of the cake. That seems somehow to be fairer? More democratic, maybe? Ah what the hell – almost time for a beer – maybe it’ll all be magically sorted over a few cold ones. I can sort most of the world out then.

  204. October 2, 2008 at 14:03

    lol, John McCain just said, “The fundamentals of this package are good and strong. ” OK now I am really worried. It seem i have heard this before.

  205. 209 Nofal Elias
    October 2, 2008 at 14:14

    I am very impressed with Tesla motors 100% electric, 0-60 mph in 3.9 seconds, burns no oil, 244 miles per charge and pennies per mile,
    well that is impressive “www.teslamotors.com”.

    All the money that the company makes will put back in research to go to the next stage, to make the car’s roof solar panel.

    My point is instead of giving the $700bn to the muti millionaires bankers to bail the out, i.e money down the drain. This money should go in supporting companies the like of Tesla.

  206. 210 Jennifer
    October 2, 2008 at 14:16

    Re: Right to die

    I agree with Mary. I believe that people should have the right to pull the plug if they so choose when they are ill. Especially with people who are ill and may feel an extreme amount of pain, loss of motor skills, etc. I think it is inhumane to make an individual suffer in those cases if they do not want to continue living. Criteria I would set would be that the individual would have to have a disease that would progressively lower their quality of life and ultimately lead to death-like ALS. I would also have a waiting period to ensure that the person has adequate time to think about their choice.

    Re: Politicians in the Media

    Sarah Palin is intelligent, experienced, and I do believe she will win over many voters. Lately, the media has portrayed her in a negative light. I think this is largely because it creates good ratings and creates hype. If people really take the time to educate themselves on the candidates and rely less on the latest news headline they will be much better off and make a far better choice when voting.

  207. 211 Nofal Elias
    October 2, 2008 at 14:16

    @ Pangolin

    Well that is bluntly obvious – is just logical

  208. 212 Pangolin-California
    October 2, 2008 at 14:22

    @ Dwight~ Be nice about poor John McCain. He only repeats what he hears in his earpiece. Just like that other republican we all know and mock. It’s why the GOP candidates talk so funny.

    Me, I think Katie Couric snuck a jammer into the Sara Palin interview. Twice.

    What is the frequency Kenneth.

  209. October 2, 2008 at 14:31

    What is the frequency Kenneth.

    OH! REM! But with so much more meaning 😉
    On a side note, I love that song.

  210. 214 Roberto
    October 2, 2008 at 14:34

    RE “”Let’s assume for a second that I was a non-party-affiliated US citizen. “”
    ———————————————————————————————————

    ——– No need for me to assume as this Texas citizen is completely independent of party affiliation other than an occasional party stamp affixed in rep/dem primary elections.

    Independent parties are an alternative when the two parties field equally non compelling candidates to run. Better yet is when you get an independent party that zeros in on an important issue being ignored by both parties. If the independents build enough strength, the parties have to address it as most recently exemplified by Ross Perot’s national debt outrage.

    Arguably cost Bush Sr the election and ushered in tighter budgets for a while.

    Enter Ralph Nader who wanted more ethical government than the cat/dog spats between the two parties during the Slick administration. Arguably cost Gore the election.

    In short, alternatives make sense sometimes, but a vote is seldom a majic bullet with an ideal candidate with broad popular consensus and vision is the only clear choice. Not voting is also a legit strategy, particularly if you don’t know the candidates which happens in large cities in school board elections and minor municiple offices.

  211. October 2, 2008 at 14:35

    Exerts from the unedited version of the PAlin Debate.

    Couric: So, many scientist and even a few child actresses stars have surmised that the Sun will come up tomorrow. How do you feel about that?

    Palin: Katie, I have a deep appreciation for the Sun. I know that people say it will come up tomorrow. I have personally met some of those people in Alaska. You know in parts of Alaska the Sun doesn’t come up everyday. That is what I base my judgment on. I talk to these people and I have faith that if they say the Sun didn’t come up, it must not have. It is my goal to helo Joh McCain to se to it everybody in America gets an equal share of the Sun.

    Couric: So can I get you to give me just one answer to 1+1. Just one specific answer.

    Palin: I have a real appreciation for number. We have numbers in Alaska. I don’t want to be the one to label what 1+1 should be. As you know I am pro life. I have also fought corruption in Alaska where people used numbers to do some pretty nasty things. I was not one of, you know , of those privileged kids that got to go around the country learning about numbers as a kid. I am more like those people in America who don’t know what 1+1 is?

  212. 216 Nofal Elias
    October 2, 2008 at 14:40

    @ Jennifer

    Sarah Palin is intelligent ??? how did you come to that conclusion. She is potician for god sake, if she is intelligent she wouldn’t enter poltics.

    How do you define intelligence ?

    Logic and Poltics don’t get on very well together.

    I have never heard of an honest polticians, they don’t exist.

  213. 217 Dennis@OCC
    October 2, 2008 at 14:58

    @ THE COMMENTS THAT PALIN IS INTELLIGENT:
    That is cute, but she is stubborn and will do whatever, she
    has to do…to get it her way…

    @ PINK re: LUBNA
    Lubna, left me a message on my FACEBOOK page, couple days ago…and she is celebrating the EID [Holidays]….

    Dennis

  214. 218 Dennis@OCC
    October 2, 2008 at 15:02

    Good Morning Helen, and the rest of the friends on World Have Your Say….

    Thursday night is the VICE-PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE…

    Reuters, is reporting that ALL EYES ARE ON PALIN and how
    she does on the VP Debate….

    [sorry, i am not able to do the link….]

    Dennis

  215. 219 Dennis@OCC
    October 2, 2008 at 15:06

    ASSISTED SUICIDE:
    I think that in most cases, if the person’s life is that fought with
    pain and causing them that many problems…They should be
    given the RIGHT to end it…

    I am not endorsing it one way or the other…

    i am writing my own opinion…

    PS: I am not talking about someone who is having
    a bad day at work or in problems in life generally…

    Sorry for the long post!

    Dennis

  216. 220 Dennis@OCC
    October 2, 2008 at 15:10

    ABOUT TAXES LINGO:

    Canada’s has the G.S.T.

    Dennis

  217. 221 Roberto
    October 2, 2008 at 15:54

    RE “”Reuters, is reporting that ALL EYES ARE ON PALIN””
    ————————————————————————————————-

    ——— Apparently the Pakistani prez, Asif Ali Zardari had both eyes very carefully upon Ms Palin upon their introduction. He calls her gorgeous and offers a hug.

    Don’t think that plays so well with the mullahs back in Pakistan, but he won’t be around long as nobody has any credibility with the people there.

    It’s always refreshing to see the dems shoot themselves in the feet as they fly the
    progressive equality banner for women. From Paula Jones, Monica Lewinski, Kathleen Harris, and now Sarah Palin, any woman who threatens their national power base trips spontaneous eruptions of crude vicious personal attacks about their appearance.

    I’m sure Ms Palin has endured much worse though as any woman might living in a frontier outpost and she looked to handle Zardari quite adroitly with nary a hitch.

    Right now, in boxing terms, she’s having to wear the cuffs and go through the motions. Obviously McCain is fast tracking her with intense grooming to complement the election strategy. The real Sarah Palin won’t reemerge until after the election whatever the outcome.

  218. 222 Jens
    October 2, 2008 at 17:03

    Tom and liver-lovers,

    you find find liver etc in WalMart here down south!!! plus we have a buther that sells anything from rocky mountain oysters to calf liver, herats kindneys etc etc.

    i like my calfs liver cut into strips (1 inch) quick fried in a little olive oil, then add some brandy mix it gently for a minute and then add a couple of tablespoons of sour cream. season with some herbs of your liking and pepper and pour over some nice brown pasta with a side of freshly steamed vegetables. getting hungry right now

  219. 223 Dennis@OCC
    October 3, 2008 at 01:21

    Why are we talking about receipes! No that is important!!!

    Dennis

  220. 224 Bryan
    October 3, 2008 at 19:12

    Pangolin-California October 2, 2008 at 12:21 pm,

    As I’ve said a few times on this forum the stale old comparison of Israelis to the Nazis loses none of its insult through overuse. It also fails to gain validity through mindless repetition.

    Now it seems you have been nettled by my observation of who the real Nazis are in the Israeli-Arab conflict. This goes back to the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and his adoring relationship with Hitler, whom he actually met, and his plans to use Hitler’s methods to carry out a final solution, Arab-style. He didn’t have the excuse of Israeli settlements and the wall then, did he.

    You have a basic lack of understanding if you think people who defend Israel on this site are trolls. The troll likes to bait and taunt others. Nobody who uses valid arguments and historic fact backed by links where necessary can be considered a troll. Now go back and reread your comment and you will see who the troll really is – one who sneers at opponents because he cannot present a valid argument.


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