Why is *THIS* U.S. VP debate important?

Hi Everyone, welcome! If you’d like to host the weekend’s Blank Page, please email Ros.

We wanted to give you a separate page to discuss today’s highly anticipated US VP debate. Your commentators (aka moderators) from the US covering coast to coast are: Jessica covering the east, Kelsie covering the mid-America from north to south and Mike covering the west. We look forward to a lively and respectful debate.

1) Why is *THIS* U.S. VP debate important?
2) What issues do you want addressed during the debate?
3) After the debate: Who won? Why? What was missing?

Please try to keep comments short in order to keep the conversation moving. World Have Your Say…

378 Responses to “Why is *THIS* U.S. VP debate important?”

  1. 1 Jessica in NYC
    October 2, 2008 at 19:14

    It’s important, because McCain could die in office and Palin would put the U.S. back in the stone age.

  2. 3 Brett
    October 2, 2008 at 19:41

    It’s important, because McCain could die in office and Palin would put the U.S. back in the stone age.

    With lots of un-named newspapers for everyone to read! You know, like, alot! Of different newspapers…. read over time….. alot

  3. October 2, 2008 at 19:42

    Winner or Loser:

    A quick look at the end from the the beginning, depending on which media outlet you choose to believe, each side will claim that their candidates won, so probably, the best possible way to determine who won could be by polls the results of which are often hotly contested.

  4. 5 Roberto
    October 2, 2008 at 19:43

    RE “”3) After the debate: Who won? Why? What was missing?””

    ——- Invalid question unless you’re trying to appeal to sports fans.

    People, and the media hates to admit that they are just like anyone else in this regard, they form subjective opinions, often before even viewing the debate. Oh, you could count the winners of the elections as the winners of the debate, but that strains credibility.

    This veep debate is important because ever since her selection, Palin has dominated the news coverage, and folks are hungry to know more.

  5. 6 Laura in Belfast
    October 2, 2008 at 19:44

    Does anyone know of a way I could watch the debate online? For the presidential debate I went to a family friends house and stayed up late to watch it, but that wasn’t possible tonight. It’s killing me not being home for this election, anyone have any tips?

    At the same time, it’s probably best I’m not there- I’d probably spend all day campaigning and watching CNN.


  6. October 2, 2008 at 19:45

    I have to agree with Jess and Brett.

    It is more important now because of circumstance. He [McCain] may be, but debatable, a better CiC but if he pops his clogs, the whole world is stuck with Palin for what ever time is left – and that is scary!

  7. October 2, 2008 at 19:46


    If you want a definitive winner change the debate back to what is was. No questions or answer from each other?

  8. 9 steve
    October 2, 2008 at 19:46

    LOL. Perhaps biden will tell us what George Washington said on TV after an early crisis in US history.

  9. 10 Jens
    October 2, 2008 at 19:49


    maybe palin will tell us that her grandparents and the dinosaurs used to watch TV together, or that putin’s head rearing over alaska could be used as a giant cinematic screen, or that that the state of health care is repsonsible for the economy and that eye-rack is a mission of god confered upon the great people of ‘merica.

  10. 11 Julie P
    October 2, 2008 at 19:50

    I wonder if Pastor Muthee has “prayed over” Palin just the way he did for her when she ran for governor?

  11. 12 steve
    October 2, 2008 at 19:53

    @ Jens

    Maybe the moderator of the debate will ask Biden about having cheated in law school and plagiarizing a speech? Palin might be naive and a fool, but at least she’s not a cheater. Biden is a disgusting person.

  12. 13 Jens
    October 2, 2008 at 19:53


    palin just turning-up and not drooling all over herself, while brabbling like the fool she is will be counted as a victory……

    her debate style is all snide remarks and being condesending to all the participants. plus the alaska debates were a shooin’, since the incubenant was hated, plus she had others there, she could put down and act supirior about, WITHOUT knowing anything. here she is on the hotplate answering specific questions, she has been trained for……..

  13. October 2, 2008 at 19:53

    @ Laura for now, try Sky News and you could listen to it on BBC 5 live If any thing pops up, I will let you know

  14. 15 Julie P
    October 2, 2008 at 19:58


    Palin was for the Bridge to Nowhere before she was against the Bridge to Nowhere. She may have killed the it, but she still took the earmark for it. To make it even more interesting she had the Road to Nowhere built with some of the money at the tune of $25 million.


    Thief and Liar are words that spring to mind when the name Palin gets mentioned.

  15. October 2, 2008 at 19:58


    So who would you prefer to be President, a “naive fool,” or a “disgusting person?”

  16. 17 Jens
    October 2, 2008 at 19:58


    palin opens her mouth and she lies, just look at all the stuff that happened in alaska, starting with a certain bridge etc etc.

    you said it more often than me. they are politicians and what do you expect????

    the entire giden stuff is in the past and has been rehashed to the up-tehth time. macnasty is now starting to bring wrigth back-up to scare whites.

    frankly i am by no means a radical liberal, but i am sick and tired of eight years of watching this country going down the toilet. there is not even a break to refill the water tank. no bush is hosing us 24/7/364 down while peeing on our heads and laughing at us…..who gained the most, not you and me…….

  17. 18 Angela in Washington
    October 2, 2008 at 20:01


    Biden may not be the best person but it has already been shown that many of the things that Palin has revealed about her accomplishments are false. I would rather have someone who makes misstakes and knows what they are talking about, than one that makes mistakes and has no idea what they are talking about. Palin is probably an intelligent woman but she is not qualified for the vice presidency. Additionally, she has had a crash course over a month’s time. I want someone that understand the complicated state we are in and truly understands. Although the one thing to remember is that even if something happened to McCain, Palin would not be making the decisions. Someone else would be thinking for her, just like someone is telling her waht to say. I don’t want a “six pack Joe” representing me. Is it to much to ask to have a president or vice president that can think for themselves, albeit get advise from others. At least both W. and D.C. both could think for themselves.

  18. 20 Angela in Washington
    October 2, 2008 at 20:06


    The stuff about Biden is old news, just like the stuff about McCain. People have heard about Biden’s incident. Just like people have heard about McCain’s involvement in the Keating fiasco. You discuss these topics as if McCain or Palin did not do anything unethical. They all have. I personally beleive McCain’s involvement was much worse than Biden’s.

  19. 21 steve
    October 2, 2008 at 20:06

    @ Jens

    For a lawyer, there’s no such thing as “past”. They are subject to ethical rules. He cheated in law school. He should have been expelled and never be allowed to sit for the bar exam. He’s a dishonest person. HE didn’t learn his lesson because he tried to cheat again in 1988.

  20. 22 Robert
    October 2, 2008 at 20:07

    From an outsiders point of view this VP debate seems importent for two reasons.

    1) It’s probably as close an election as you can get
    2) Both Presidential candidates are tight lipped about specifics of their policies and talk in vague terms.
    3) Last weeks debate was a draw.

    So this second round of debates is important because it may offer more insight into the exact policies and may tip the balance in favour of one party or the other.

    Finally there is

    4) Both VP’s have a history of gaffs.

    For those who care about politics a wrong gaff tonight may provide the ammunition their side needs against the other. For those off us without an interest in one side or the other this just adds to the entertainment value of the debate.

  21. October 2, 2008 at 20:10

    @ Jens

    A strong worded reply from Bryan for quoting the text below from this BBC article in last night’s TP

    “The one thing I found during the [2006] debates was no matter how knowledgeable her opponents were on the issues, it didn’t matter,”
    She has an amazing ability to turn a 45 second answer into a folksy story… she’s never been forced to know the issues.” – Andrew Halcro

  22. October 2, 2008 at 20:12

    Laura, watched it over yahoo last week it worked fine.

  23. October 2, 2008 at 20:13

    I think we need more Pro Palin bloggers here

    *ducks for cover*

  24. 26 Angela in Washington
    October 2, 2008 at 20:18


    Every professional is subject to ethical rules. Members of Congress are subject to a higher degree of ethics than most people, as are indiviudals in the military.

  25. 27 Jens
    October 2, 2008 at 20:19


    that is exactly the case, but to night some moosie folklore will not work, she will try it but it will fail.

    steve, in 1988, he actually quoted neil kinnock as the original source of the quote, BUT the press ignored it over and over again, by not including his reference.

    i know you have your beef with his cheating during his law dgree. that is over 40 years ago and i think one can make up for mistakes. hell, i screwed up at school, but i am an upright citizen and a good human.

    palin has had 6 years in some minor public office and she lied and cheated almost every minute. just look at this, build a hockey hall on somebody’s land without checking, leaving Wasilia in the dumbs, bridge to nowhere, using 50000 bucks to redecorate her office, circumventing building code of her property to be sold, trooper-gate still under investigation, airial hunting wolves so that her croonies can go shoot moose, intend of banning books etc etc. these all may seem to you small time issues compared to biden and your beef with him. BUT they show she will abuse power at a scary rate. add to this her unsurpassed incompetence and we have a disaster on our hands

  26. 28 Julie P
    October 2, 2008 at 20:23


    I’ve got a great arm, but I’m not sure I can throw a large pumpkin to Nigeria.

  27. October 2, 2008 at 20:25

    This VP is important because for two different reasons many feel that whichever candidate is elected, there is a better then average chance that they will not make it through their first term. A VP selection is the first demonstration of a nominees decision making capabilities. From that choice you can assess the candidate’s ability to recognize and fill their weakness. It shows what kind of people they will look to when they assign cabinet. Also, as the last VP has shown, the VP position can be very strong and influential.

    Now as to why this VP debate is important. Well it is slated to be SNL meets a beauty pageant. It is important more as a comedic work of art then an actual political historical moment. Again, my prediction. Sarah runs off the stage and the cameras chase her down like we are watching the Maurry Polvich show. “No Sarah, Joe is not the father.”

  28. 30 steve
    October 2, 2008 at 20:26

    @ Jens

    law school is very different, and everything you do in law school will affect you for the rest of your life. If it turns out you lied about something in law school, found out you cheated, even if 70 years passed there would still be consequences. There is no statute of limitations on things like this.

    The things you listed about palin isn’t lying or cheating. Poor judgment yes in some of the cases. What makes you think she will abuse power and not think that Biden would lie? Biden is a liar. He got busted for it, but they let him get away with it. I cannot believe that they allowed him to finish law school and get admitted to the bar.

    Lawyers even get disbarred for filing for bankruptcy because it shows poor moral character not repaying your obligations fully. Now cheating in law school is a lot morally worse than filing for bankruptcy, don’t you think?

  29. October 2, 2008 at 20:27

    @ Jens

    LOL I did not know you had a dossier on Palin too just like people have on Biden.


  30. 32 steve
    October 2, 2008 at 20:30

    @ Angela

    Ethics and politicians? LOL

    Given that they by nature are compulsive liars, I bet the congressional ethics offices are pretty understaffed, deliberately.

  31. 33 Jessica in NYC
    October 2, 2008 at 20:35

    @ Steve

    “Ethics and politicians? LOL”

    I double that LOL… I was on the hill for a NONE-partisan fellowship a while back. It was disgusting what lengths they go at to “bend” the rules. My little idealistic and young–at the time–heart was broken.

  32. 34 Angela in Washington
    October 2, 2008 at 20:37


    Congressional ethical offices may be understaffed but not for the military and McCain’s history is not all peaches and cream. Plus, you have even stated before that politicians are liars. Most people view attorneys as liars, anyways, even with all of the ethical rules. Additionally, I am more concerned about Palin’s poor judgement than a few lies that are almost as old as me. I know you don’t like Biden. I liked McCain, until he picked Palin. It shows poor judgement. I guess we have a ticket of poor judgement and a ticket of liars and “the wrong experience.” It doesn’t matter to me because I already voted, however in my county I am not sure if my vote will even count!

  33. 35 Angela in Washington
    October 2, 2008 at 20:38


    It is reassuring that you are one attorney that has ethical standards.

  34. 36 steve
    October 2, 2008 at 20:38

    @ Jessica

    Hence why I always rag on politicians. Hence why I don’t care about this election or any other. Becuase it’s just going to come down to, who is the more convincing liar? They are sick people, who desperately want power, because their narcissism drives them to do it. Horrible people. I’ve been surrounded by them my entire life. Again, we get what we deserve when we vote for these sick people.

  35. 37 Julie P
    October 2, 2008 at 21:22


    I guess your last post killed the debate! 😉

  36. October 2, 2008 at 21:38

    @ Julie P

    I’ve got a great arm, but I’m not sure I can throw a large pumpkin to Nigeria.

    Don’t understimate the power of the human mind at intercontinental pumpkin throwing … even VP debates 😀

  37. October 2, 2008 at 21:41

    Julie P
    October 2, 2008 at 9:22 pm

    I guess your last post killed the debate!

    In WHYS Land can ever be killed can also be brought to life, thanks to the power of global conversation

  38. October 2, 2008 at 21:41


    Do you know how many of those politicians are law graduates? 😉

  39. October 2, 2008 at 21:53

    Debate Update :

    Go after Biden 😀

    … Now that’s turning defense to attack

    which may backfire

  40. 43 Jessica in NYC
    October 2, 2008 at 22:15

    @ Will
    Actually, yes I may still be able to access that info, but not from this computer. (wirewall) Get back to you in a few hours.

    @ Julie P
    It’s hard moderating with a few people when things are subjective. 😦 We want to be fair to all and don’t want it to seem partisan– so asking everyone was easiest way to do it. Plus, Ros has said it’s easiest to keep the convo rolling if people don’t publish “essays”.

  41. 44 Venessa
    October 2, 2008 at 22:21

    I’m not a Palin fan but I won’t underestimate her in the debate tonight. (I too will have popcorn and a gin & tonic on hand!)

    As has been pointed out both candidates are great at gaffes, the difference is Palin does it with a smile on her face and people think she is being cute. Remember for the most part she has been out of the spotlight since her announcement as McCain’s running mate and I’m sure she has been coached extensively in preparation for tonight’s spar.

    I watched her previous debates and didn’t find her participation in them all that impressive. Much of her previous experience in the debates allowed her to watch her opponents hang themselves bickering since there were 3 people involved. While she added nothing of great substance to these discussions she still came out on top. What she has against her this occasion is there are only two people on the stage. She will actually have to come up with answers to the questions. If Palin really is bright (as some people believe she is) she will be a quick study and be able to redeem herself from the pitiable interviews she’s granted as of late.

    At the end of the day people will interpret the debate however they want and who “wins” is purely subjective.

  42. 45 Kelsie in Houston
    October 2, 2008 at 22:22

    Afternoon/Evening/Morning (choose one) all!

    With the debate a few hours away, what are some questions the WHYS community would ask either Biden or Palin (or both)?

    Some pro-Palin bloggers would be very welcome tonight, if we could round some up…

  43. October 2, 2008 at 22:26

    @ Kelsie, Any chance that our question would be put to the VP debate committee? And the Pro Palin bloggers, how do we round them up? I’d be very much interested in seeing friendly Intercontinental and Coast to Coast fireworks flying on the blog.

  44. 47 Venessa
    October 2, 2008 at 22:27

    Where’s Jennifer? She’s a Palin fan….

    Jennifer ~ If you’re out there, what is your opinion about tonight’s debate?

  45. 48 Kelsie in Houston
    October 2, 2008 at 22:29

    Unfortunately, no chance of a submission, but the exercise of fielding questions from the WHYS community would give us all a good understanding of what’s on folks’ minds around the world, not solely in the United States–and you never know. It’s the BBC, after all… 😉

    And you raise a good point: we are very interested in the discussion this evening remaining friendly and amicable all around.

  46. October 2, 2008 at 22:31

    @ Vennesa, I call the American election process ” The TV Soap opera: America Decides 2008″ and tonight’s debate is an episode in the season finale. Although I ought to be asleep then, I will be awake with several bottles of chilled coke and fried chicken by my side for my culinary delight. 😀

  47. October 2, 2008 at 22:33

    @ Kelsie, I totally concur with you on all fronts.

  48. October 2, 2008 at 22:35

    @ Venessa, tonight would be a very good time for all WHYS blog Republican spokesmen/women to show up. 😀

  49. 52 Jessica in NYC
    October 2, 2008 at 22:40

    Anyone else listening to the BBC radio? It’s funny to hear everyone discussing tonight’s debate. Most people are saying there will be more US and world wide people watching this debate than the first presidential debate. I sure hope the VP debate doesn’t disappoint us! I wonder if Biden and Palin will compare accessories like Obama and McCain did. Maybe hairdos? Beehive vs plugins? LOL

    There are a lot of Palin supports on this blog. I think everyone might come out to blog in a couple of hours.

  50. 53 Kelsie in Houston
    October 2, 2008 at 22:42

    @the VP debates:
    Does anyone have a memorable incident from a past VP debate?

  51. 54 Jessica in NYC
    October 2, 2008 at 22:47

    Did anyone see this?

    From Pink on another page:

    McCain Quits Michigan
    Two articles: one Detroit Free Press, one Politico via Yahoo News
    McCain giving up on Michigan race (freep)
    McCain pulling out of Michigan (politico)

  52. 55 Julie P
    October 2, 2008 at 22:49


    Lloyd Benson slaps down Dan Quayle

  53. 56 Kelsie in Houston
    October 2, 2008 at 22:50

    @VP debates:
    Some of the big issues I think the VP debate should focus upon:

    • How do you envision the role of the Vice President in the American political system? On the world stage?
    • What qualifies you to fulfill the goals laid out in your vision of the VP’s role?
    • Will you partner with your running-mate, or take a back seat once elected?
    • Many Vice Presidents have chosen a certain issue or batch of issues to concentrate on: what would yours be?
    • How will you work with your running-mate and the Congress to advance global issues such as hunger, the economic crisis, the Middle East conflict, and repairing our relations with other nations?
    • The primary job of the Vice President, aside from presiding over the Senate, is to step into the role of the President should he suffer incapacitation. Why are you, rather than your opponent, qualified to fulfill this requirement should it be necessary?

  54. 57 Kelsie in Houston
    October 2, 2008 at 22:52

    A real shock, evidently. Is this an isolated case or a cause for greater concern among Republicans?

    A classic! Somehow, everyone else’s imitation doesn’t quite live up…

  55. 58 Robert
    October 2, 2008 at 22:53


    I thought the primary role of the VP was to attend funerals of former foreign heads of state. I didn’t know they actually did something!

  56. 59 Kelsie in Houston
    October 2, 2008 at 22:56

    Oops–I forgot “appearing at presidential, papal, and miscellany other events” to the list…so here goes:

    • The Vice President is often deputized as a representative of the U.S. Presidency and the American people. Do you feel prepared to meet with heads of state from around the world at events such as these?

  57. 60 Miriam from Virginia
    October 2, 2008 at 23:00

    Laura in Belfast

    Someone on YouTube has set up a place that you can subscribe to the interview once it is over…

    If the link doesn’t work for some reason, type in Sarah Palin CBS interview and there should be a huge block that says subscribe to a high quality video of the Biden-Palin interview. If that doesn’t work, you can also go to one of the major networks, CNN.com, CBS.com, NBC.com, etc. etc., Good Luck! It should be fascinating.

  58. 61 Julie P
    October 2, 2008 at 23:02


    I remember wartching that debate live. My eyes nearly popped out of my head. That was a great slap down. I personally think that has got to be the best comeback of ANY debate. Bar none.

  59. 62 Pangolin-California
    October 2, 2008 at 23:09

    What is this blather on about Joe Biden’s college career when Palin refuses to release her transcripts.? If Palin’s six schools in six years don’t raise a few warning flags stay away from railroad tracks and crosswalks. Building on property you don’t own in cheating. Harassing state employees due to a personal vendetta is illegal in every state.

    Tonight is strictly dumb and dumber. We could have skipped the debates and put the candidates on “Are You Smarter Than a Fifth Grader.”

  60. 63 Jessica in NYC
    October 2, 2008 at 23:11

    @ Steve
    I wouldn’t say “everyone” in DC, specifically the new folks. There were some I respect greatly.
    @ Kelsie
    RE VP debate

    Sure. Dan Quayle compared his experience as Congressmember to JFK during the VP debate. Dem candidate Benten said something like, “Senator, I served with Kennedy. Kennedy was a friend of mine. You’re no Kennedy.” Quayle said, “That was uncalled for, Senator.”

    To be fair, I remember it b/c it’s been replayed on the radio all day as something Palin should not do. LOL 😛

  61. 64 Kelsie in Houston
    October 2, 2008 at 23:12

    Julie linked us a YouTube video of that moment–I agree, not a good idea for Mrs Palin; nor for Mr Biden.

  62. 65 Jessica in NYC
    October 2, 2008 at 23:13

    @ Julie P !!!

    You beat me! I did remember the commercial ads that came of it. “Quayle: just a heartbeat away.”

    I watched the link. I love the way they pronounce Senn-a-toor. That was a gentlemen’s snack down.

  63. 66 Jonathan
    October 2, 2008 at 23:17


    Try http://c-span.org . I don’t know if it’s available abroad, but I don’t know it’s not, and can’t think why it wouldn’t be. It’s the best source for uninterrupted, uncommented-upon, straightforward real-time US political events. Or any network, I should think. Like cnn.com .

    @Robert and everyone

    Until recently, vice-presidents reliably had lots of time on their hands. But Dick Cheney has shown how remarkably elastic the office can be; he is essentially running the government from the office of the VP. Of course, Sarah Palin is no Dick Cheney, there, yup.

    “Qualified to be vice-president” used to be a sly put-down.

  64. 67 Kelsie in Houston
    October 2, 2008 at 23:19

    Taking off from Jonathan’s post: Is it good for the VP to be as proactive as Mr Cheney? Would you want Mr Biden or Mrs Palin to take an engaged, active role in politics and government?

  65. 68 Julie P
    October 2, 2008 at 23:22


    I think, and I stress think, I recall that there is or was speculation that having Danny boy on the ticket in 92 sank the ticket.

  66. 69 Jonathan
    October 2, 2008 at 23:45

    Oh, please, please supply answers to Kelsie’s excellent list of VP questions–in character of course. 🙂 You’re so good!

    “Dick Cheney–less than a heartbeat away from the presidency!” (Harry Shearer)

    The Bush/Cheney situation of a decerebrated president and a boundlessly ambitious, clever, well-connected VP is an aberration, but now that Cheney has demonstrated the Constitutional loophole, others are sure to follow if they can. And no, it’s a terrible idea. “Engaged and active” sounds good, but “unaccountable” better describes the reality. Cheney has somehow purported that he’s not part of the executive branch, while of course retaining “executive privilege.” That’s a big flashing red light.

  67. 70 Kelsie in Houston
    October 2, 2008 at 23:50

    Good point about accountability; so you wouldn’t want an especially politically-active VP? Is that on major issues (such as Mr Cheney’s influence over the decisions to enter Iraq and Afghanistan) or including minor matters (Mr Gore’s advocacy of environmental issues)?

  68. October 3, 2008 at 00:00


    I think the advocacy of a vice president is a fantastic idea. The power was abused by the current administration. But in a world where you have a foreign policy issue like the Russia/ Georgia conflict at the same time you have a category 3 or better hurricane bearing down on a sensitive area, it would be nice to have a back up executive. It would be nice if you had a guy who had a strength in assessing foreign policy conflicts and a guy who had a knack for economic issues. The presidents job should be to make the final decision, but having a vice that he trusts on certain issues to be the liaison between the sources and the president could be helpful when multiple situations arise at once.

    I don’t know if you guys know this, but “being president is hard. It hard work. It can really wear on you.”

  69. 72 selena in Canada
    October 3, 2008 at 00:22

    Do you feel prepared to meet with heads of state from around the world at events such as these?

    Why wouldn’t she be? Call girls are always ready to meet them and listen to their problems. 🙂

    I am sure a good Christian girl would be qualified.

  70. 73 Jonathan
    October 3, 2008 at 00:36


    “Cheating in law school?” That’s what it’s come to? Aren’t you a bit embarrassed to be echoing that desperate ploy? Pretty sad stuff.

    “Biden’s “cheating in law school” (first I’ve heard of it) might have been important–if he didn’t have a long record as a US Senator to examine. He does, so it isn’t. The man is as poor as a church mouse, after 30 years as a Senator. Not a whisper of financial corruption, or abuse of office, or even personal failings.

    Palin’s ethical lapses are substantial, relevant, and current. (Quite apart from the whole idiot thing.) How do you reconcile that with your famously rigorous standards of conduct?

  71. 74 selena in Canada
    October 3, 2008 at 00:41


    “Cheating in Law School”

    What I will never understand is how someone can get all bent out of shape about cheating but find all manner of rationalization for collateral damage!!!

  72. 75 Pangolin-California
    October 3, 2008 at 00:45

    The odd thing is that if the GOP had run Christine Todd-Whitman or Olympia Snowe as VP candidate this conversation would be in an entirely different tone. We would all be asking what Obama could possibly have been thinking running Biden. If the GOP had run any combination of Linda Lingle, Governor of Hawaii and Olympia Snowe
    then Obama would be a dot in the rearview mirror now.

    As is the news is full of how Biden will have to keep leashed so as to not look like he’s bullying Mrs. Palin. I betcha she’s all prepared and has read an actual article or three in a journal by now. Maybe they’ll start having Palin carry around books she’ll never read like Bush does.

  73. 76 Pangolin-California
    October 3, 2008 at 00:54

    @ Selena~ Do you feel prepared to meet with heads of state from around the world at events such as these?

    Why wouldn’t she be? Call girls are always ready to meet them and listen to their problems.

    Well, that would quickly solve the problem with the government of Pakistan. Well, the President at least. What’s a little fatwa between friends anyway?

    I suspect that Putin and Medvedev have erm, other names on their dance card. Hostesses whose voice and grace are in line with their appearance.

  74. 77 steve
    October 3, 2008 at 00:57

    @ Selena
    Completely irrelevant and off topic. Cheating in law school is a huge deal and shows poor moral character which you have for the rest of your life. I went to law school, worked my butt off, and didn’t cheat. People who cheat get expelled and forbidden from the practice of law, and Biden basically got a get out of jail card. I cannot believe he has a law license after what he did.

  75. 78 Pangolin-California
    October 3, 2008 at 01:01

    I wonder what the Russian translation for I’ll give you a C if you get out of my office IS anyway? Do they have a phrase for that?

    Dmitri Medvedev might find it useful in negotiations with a Palin-McCain administration. A phrase she’s familiar with and is known to be responsive to.

  76. 79 Jessica in NYC
    October 3, 2008 at 01:04

    Sorry about my comment earlier asking you all to keep your post short. Write as much as you’d like.

  77. 80 Pangolin-California
    October 3, 2008 at 01:09

    @ Steve~ The ethical purity of lawyers is about a dead issue as Sara Palin’s virginity. The protestation is in defiance of all visible evidence. The intellectual flexibility of lawyers is taking a beating also.

    Nobody but you and three bloggers over at RonPaul.com give a rat’s hambone.

  78. 81 mirror Man
    October 3, 2008 at 01:09

    McCain could pick Charles Manson and I’d still vote for the ticket over the Socialist, racist, Anti American scumbag.

  79. 82 Julie P
    October 3, 2008 at 01:10


    I don’t time to rewrite “War and Peace” must get ready for the debate.

  80. 83 Kelsie in Houston
    October 3, 2008 at 01:12

    Please try to keep post lengths reasonable; it’s a blog, not a college sophistry page 🙂 . Many thanks!

    Less than an hour to go until the starting bell….any expectations (or fears)?

  81. October 3, 2008 at 01:16

    @ All .. I have a dream, that one day political campaigns will be without mudslinging and [attempted ] character assassination. I have dream that one day, politicians, bloggers and other stakeholders will focus on issues and not help the other guy wash his dirty linen in public. I have a dream …”

  82. 85 Kelsie in Houston
    October 3, 2008 at 01:18

    Very nice, Nelson.

  83. October 3, 2008 at 01:21

    @ Kelsie. Many Thanks. You heard it here first, it’s open source. 😉

  84. 87 Pangolin-California
    October 3, 2008 at 01:24

    @ Kelsie~ I object!!! Sophistry properly executed, is far more effective as a short post.
    Longer posts are far more likely to be either informative or pedantic.

  85. 88 Kelsie in Houston
    October 3, 2008 at 01:34

    Haha–very well, but remember your Shakespeare: “Brevity is the soul of wit”!

    Marking time until the debate…

    Some coverage from the world media:
    The BBC
    (the BBC will stream live for world readers–link will go up as soon as it’s available)


    The International Herald-Tribune


    The Hindustan Times asks why India’s politicians have not “faced the nation” as Mr Biden and Mrs Palin are.

    The Australian is hosting a live blog on the debate

  86. 89 Bob in Queensland
    October 3, 2008 at 01:57

    Hi all!

    Dang…all the good seats are gone!

    I’ll be watching this debate next to my body language consultant so if she says anything interesting, I’ll relay it live!

  87. 90 Julie P
    October 3, 2008 at 01:59


    I was hoping you’d wake up in time. Pull up a chair.

  88. 91 Kelsie in Houston
    October 3, 2008 at 02:02

    Bob’s here–the party can get started!

    Just in time: and we’re off…

  89. 92 Jessica in NYC
    October 3, 2008 at 02:03


    “I’ll be watching this debate next to my body language consultant so if she says anything interesting, I’ll relay it live!

    LOL– you’re here, now the party can begin.

    Opening remarks.

    Wow– clever, I liked that Palin asked if she could call Biden, Joe.

  90. 93 Kelsie in Houston
    October 3, 2008 at 02:04

    “Can I call you Joe?” Good…

  91. 94 Kelsie in Houston
    October 3, 2008 at 02:05

    Strong opening statement from Mr Biden…

    Good opener for Mrs Palin as well.

  92. 95 Kelsie in Houston
    October 3, 2008 at 02:06

    @Global community

    The BBC is streaming the debate live:

    Please join in!

  93. 96 Pangolin-California
    October 3, 2008 at 02:06

    One “betcha”


  94. 97 Jessica in NYC
    October 3, 2008 at 02:07

    OUCH! Attack her Biden for that comment!

  95. 98 Bob in Queensland
    October 3, 2008 at 02:07

    Psychology Consultant: Palin delivery way too fast…a sign of extreme nervousness…and a few shakes of the head on delivery means she doesn’t fully believe in what she’s saying.

  96. 99 Jessica in NYC
    October 3, 2008 at 02:07

    @ Pangolin-

    DRINK!! Two, for the smirk…

  97. 100 Kelsie in Houston
    October 3, 2008 at 02:08

    Mrs Palin feels REALLY rehearsed…

  98. 101 Jonathan
    October 3, 2008 at 02:08

    Role of the VP

    The VP traditionally is given some cause to keep him busy, as is the First Lady, but actual policymaking isn’t part of his Constitutional portfolio.

    Sure, the president can get advice and counsel and guidance and help from anyone he wants, in or out of the administration, including spouse and VP, but it’s informal. The VP is not supposed to be an assistant president.

    That’s a good thing. The VP is picked for crassly political reasons–usually to “balance the ticket” geographically or otherwise. Qualification for office has no role, as Dan “Potatoe” Quayle and so many others demonstrate.

  99. 102 Kelsie in Houston
    October 3, 2008 at 02:09

    John McCain as a maverick…?

  100. 103 Kelsie in Houston
    October 3, 2008 at 02:10

    “Hockey moms” — DING! Mrs Palin isn’t quite answering the questions…

  101. 104 Jessica in NYC
    October 3, 2008 at 02:10

    “Putting partisan politics aside.” Did you bite your tongue Palin?
    LOL— “bring something new to Washington.”

    Urggg, Gwen should have let Biden reply! [—-]


    Ah, “hockey mom”, DRINK!

  102. 105 Bob in Queensland
    October 3, 2008 at 02:11

    @ Kelsie.

    Body language agrees with you….Palin is struggling hard not tobe herself and follow her coaching…note busy hands down behind the podium.

  103. 106 Kelsie in Houston
    October 3, 2008 at 02:11

    Bob: How about that double-take on the camera. She looks stiff and inflexible.

  104. 107 Kelsie in Houston
    October 3, 2008 at 02:13

    “Darn right!” — folksy language…

  105. 108 Jonathan
    October 3, 2008 at 02:13

    Gosh darn it all, I fell behind on the Tivo over there and I’ll never catch up! Still Palin’s opening as I write. Biden’s was great though; that shifting of the ground was what Obama needs to do and didn’t.

  106. 109 Kelsie in Houston
    October 3, 2008 at 02:14

    Lots of statistics from Mrs Palin…her speech feels like she’s unleashing as much as possible.

  107. 110 Julie P
    October 3, 2008 at 02:15

    Biden’s keeping his cool.

  108. 111 Bob in Queensland
    October 3, 2008 at 02:16

    @ Kelsie

    Stiff demeanour is a result of her having been told to “tone it down” in coaching…but constantly moving hands behind the podium (and “near winks” which I haven’t seen for myself but I’m assured are there) are her personality trying to get out.

    Flick of her pen when told time was up was expression of annoyance at moderator.

  109. 112 Kelsie in Houston
    October 3, 2008 at 02:16

    “talk straight”–clever.

    Mrs Palin’s verbal and body language feel extremely insecure and evasive…

  110. 113 Jessica in NYC
    October 3, 2008 at 02:17

    HAHA, Palin could not answer the question and insulted the moderator!

    Biden it doing an excellent job of staying on topic, keeping the answers short and concise.

  111. 114 Jonathan
    October 3, 2008 at 02:18

    Greedy bankers fooled Joe Sixpack and Hilda Hockeymom into buyin’ that big expensive house, darn it.

  112. 115 Kelsie in Houston
    October 3, 2008 at 02:18

    Mr Biden feels relaxed throughout his speaking

    Mrs Palin responding to “redistribution”: immediate redirect to something less specific than a direct answer to Mr Biden…

  113. 116 Julie P
    October 3, 2008 at 02:19

    Palin’s trying to be condescending.

  114. 117 Kelsie in Houston
    October 3, 2008 at 02:19

    Mr Biden: “I don’t know where to start!” Me neither…

  115. 118 Kelsie in Houston
    October 3, 2008 at 02:20

    Yes, and it feels like she’s trying to turn up the “charm” factor–she’s so insecure, and it really comes out beside Mr Biden…

  116. 119 Jonathan
    October 3, 2008 at 02:21

    Darn right we need tax relief.

    Ew, I agreed with her. Now I feel all dirty.

    Speaking of which, just what are you implying about her hands Bob? 🙂

  117. 120 Bob in Queensland
    October 3, 2008 at 02:21

    “The ultimate bridge to nowhere” ROFL!

  118. October 3, 2008 at 02:21


    The audience couldnt help laughing at the joke about “the bridge to nowhere~!”

  119. 122 Julie P
    October 3, 2008 at 02:22

    “The ultimate Bridge to Nowhere” Good one!

  120. 123 Kelsie in Houston
    October 3, 2008 at 02:22

    Mr Biden is getting a bit verbose…

  121. 124 Jessica in NYC
    October 3, 2008 at 02:22

    @ Jonathan
    @ Palin’s Redistribution

    Yes, b/c oil companies and corporations and executives are the ones struggling to pay their mortgages and put food one the table.

    @ Biden
    Excellent, McCain is the bridge to no-where!

    Characterized! Come on, Biden!

  122. 125 Kelsie in Houston
    October 3, 2008 at 02:23

    “Back to the energy plan”–a definite nod to her coaching…

  123. October 3, 2008 at 02:23

    She’s reading her talking points?

  124. 127 Kelsie in Houston
    October 3, 2008 at 02:23

    A Republican “taking on” the oil companies? That’s a bit funny…

  125. 128 Julie P
    October 3, 2008 at 02:24

    “The nice thing about running with John McCain?!” Huh?

  126. 129 Kelsie in Houston
    October 3, 2008 at 02:24

    *smirk DING!!

  127. October 3, 2008 at 02:26


    Opening beer two!

  128. 131 Kelsie in Houston
    October 3, 2008 at 02:27

    Mrs Palin: “We need to appreciate John McCain’s call for reform…”

  129. 132 Kelsie in Houston
    October 3, 2008 at 02:30

    “…because that’s just a quick answer.” Mrs Palin getting a bit testy.

    “I want to talk about energy policy…” Not on the moderator’s topic.

  130. 133 Julie P
    October 3, 2008 at 02:30

    She is so coached she can’t be herself.

  131. 134 Bob in Queensland
    October 3, 2008 at 02:30

    Er…and this has WHAT to do with the question asked?

  132. 135 Kelsie in Houston
    October 3, 2008 at 02:31

    Somebody needs to inform Mrs Palin that the debate isn’t “Choose Your Own Adventure”–she needs to answer the question!

  133. 136 Jessica in NYC
    October 3, 2008 at 02:31

    @ Kelsie

    Don’t you know, it’s the moderator’s fault she’s not doing well and can’t answer the questions.. LOL

  134. 137 Jonathan
    October 3, 2008 at 02:31


    Yes, she does bash oil companies. Why funny?

  135. October 3, 2008 at 02:32

    Is there a “self” for her to be? A “Presidential Self?”

  136. 139 Kelsie in Houston
    October 3, 2008 at 02:32

    All those biased questions! “What are the causes of climate change?”

  137. 140 Kelsie in Houston
    October 3, 2008 at 02:33

    Not her personally really, the Republican Party in general. As Mr Biden is pointing out right now, the Republican Party has been the oil companies’ most generous patron in the U.S. government…

  138. 141 Jonathan
    October 3, 2008 at 02:33

    “Windfall profits tax?” Gag. Yuck. Stupid.

  139. 142 Kelsie in Houston
    October 3, 2008 at 02:35

    “Senator O’Biden”…he’s Irish, huh?

  140. 143 Jonathan
    October 3, 2008 at 02:35


    I’d say it’s a tie for first place: Democrats and Republicans, for “most generous patron” to oil companies.

  141. 144 Bob in Queensland
    October 3, 2008 at 02:35

    “Her blink rate is reduced on this (energy in Alaska) because this is a topic she feels confident on”.

    ….Not sure I call gas “clean and green” though!

  142. 145 Jonathan
    October 3, 2008 at 02:38

    Her mortgage policy is to pump oil from Alaska? Sorry I know I’m a little behind.

  143. 146 Bob in Queensland
    October 3, 2008 at 02:38

    “Hand gesture when Biden said “Obama-Biden” administration indicated he feels Obama’s equal. Gestures from Palin when referring to McCain are more like she’s talking about a father figure.

    Head shakes when talking about tolerance indicate Palin is NOT tolerant and doesn’t believe in/agree with what she’s saying”

  144. 147 Kelsie in Houston
    October 3, 2008 at 02:38

    @ Jonathan:
    Fair enough!

    The same-sex question:
    Mr Biden’s answer is very strong and comprehensive.

    Mrs Palin is contradictory: “I am tolerant. I have a diverse family and group of friends”–yet, “I don’t support defining marriage as anything but between one man and one woman. We can go round and round about what that actually means…”

  145. 148 Julie P
    October 3, 2008 at 02:38

    She is obviously irritated.

  146. 149 Jessica in NYC
    October 3, 2008 at 02:39

    Palin– and by “diverse”, I mean people that look, talk, sound and believe in the same things I do….

  147. 151 Kelsie in Houston
    October 3, 2008 at 02:41

    Mrs Palin: “We have a plan…” Which is?

  148. 152 Julie P
    October 3, 2008 at 02:41

    She really needs to learn how to pronounce Iraq. “Eye Rack” is just so grating.

  149. 153 steve
    October 3, 2008 at 02:42

    Biden is taking the Gore approach and says that Human caused global warming, ignoring that earth has gone in and out of ice ages throughout its entire history. If he had said humans are speeding it up, I would have agreed, but he’s being an alarmist. Humans don’t cause climate change. The earth’s climate always has been, and always will change, we just speed it up.

  150. 154 Jonathan
    October 3, 2008 at 02:42

    Oh no, another agreement: I too don’t think we need to find out if global warming is man-made before we get busy mitigating it. That’s been an excuse to stall, in fact.

    I do wish she’d get it straight though: Nobody says human activity is caused by climate change; it’s the other way around.

  151. 155 Kelsie in Houston
    October 3, 2008 at 02:43

    Mr Biden: “We will end this war. For John McCain, there is no end in sight for the end of this war.”

    Mrs Palin: “Your plan is a white flag of surrender for our troops in Iraq.”

  152. 156 Jessica in NYC
    October 3, 2008 at 02:43

    Booooooo on gay rights.

  153. 157 Jonathan
    October 3, 2008 at 02:44

    Steve, so shouldn’t we stop speeding it up? Policy implication is identical, isn’t it?

  154. 158 steve
    October 3, 2008 at 02:45

    @ Jonathan

    Perhaps we should, but we cannot stop climate change, it will happen with or without us. But saying that we CAUSE climate change is untrue.

  155. 159 Jonathan
    October 3, 2008 at 02:45

    Boooo to whooo on gay rights?

  156. 160 Kelsie in Houston
    October 3, 2008 at 02:46

    Mrs Palin is being a bit patronizing…

  157. 161 Jessica in NYC
    October 3, 2008 at 02:48

    I’m not feeling Guen Ifill as a moderator… Is it just me?

  158. 162 Jonathan
    October 3, 2008 at 02:48

    Steve, So say warming is caused by Martians, or leprechauns. natural cycles, whatever. We all (finally) acknowledge it’s happening, it’s harmful, dangerous, we can mitigate it, we should mitigate it, right? Cause is completely irrelevant.

  159. 163 Kelsie in Houston
    October 3, 2008 at 02:48

    It would help if the politicians could stick to the original questions instead of wandering all around the green…

  160. October 3, 2008 at 02:50

    Akmadinijad….Akmadinijad…Akmadinijad… so they learned how to say his name?!

  161. 165 Kelsie in Houston
    October 3, 2008 at 02:51

    Fearmongering. DING!!!

  162. 166 Jonathan
    October 3, 2008 at 02:51

    Good, Biden mentioned that Bush has already come around to the Obama Iraq timeline! Along with, for what it’s worth, the president of Iraq.

    Palin says “surrender?” Who would we wave that white flag at? Where’s Versailles, or the battleship, to surrender at or on? To whom would we surrender? Who’s the enemy? Have they thought this through?

  163. 167 Jessica in NYC
    October 3, 2008 at 02:52

    “A respect women’s rights?” How, Ms. Pa-lin? How, by having dozens of laws that legislate women’s bodies? Oh, oh but give big corporations all the leeway and unregulated space they want! Rotwiller bite the pitbull for that remark!

  164. 168 Julie P
    October 3, 2008 at 02:53


    You read my mind.

  165. 169 Jonathan
    October 3, 2008 at 02:55

    “You don’t have to believe me; you have the word of Al Qaeda.” Oh, OK, thanks Sarah!

  166. 170 Kelsie in Houston
    October 3, 2008 at 02:56

    LOL–such credibility, that.

  167. 171 Julie P
    October 3, 2008 at 02:56

    Girlfriend’s getting smug.

  168. 172 Bob in Queensland
    October 3, 2008 at 02:57

    Palin’s attempt to distance her ticket from Bush was risky…and appears to have backfired. A bit of passion from Biden in that answer…and the CNN opinion graph showed he struck a BIG chord.

  169. 173 Jessica in NYC
    October 3, 2008 at 02:57

    @ Julie P

    I am annoyed! Biden let it slip. That could have been the comment he bounced on and brought back an Clinton supporters that are on the fence.

  170. 174 Jonathan
    October 3, 2008 at 02:57

    They don’t hate us for our democracy; they hate us for our air strikes. (I forget who)

  171. 175 Kelsie in Houston
    October 3, 2008 at 02:59

    “They hate us for our freedoms, our democracy…”

    Abu Ghraib, Haditha….?

  172. 176 Kelsie in Houston
    October 3, 2008 at 02:59

    Is anyone else annoyed by “Nu-cue-lur” instead of “nu-clee-ur”?

  173. 177 Bob in Queensland
    October 3, 2008 at 03:00

    Aw, c’mon Jonathan…American bombs are a far more democratic way to die than the Taliban ones!

  174. 178 Jonathan
    October 3, 2008 at 03:00

    Pailin and McCain will “pursue passion together!” Yikes.

    Biden: “McCain won’t even agree to meet with Spain!” LOL Missed a good shot though, could have mentioned we have about a billion more enemies now than eight years ago for some reason.

  175. 179 Bob in Queensland
    October 3, 2008 at 03:01

    @ Kelsie

    Nuke-you-laar drives me up the wall!

  176. 180 Jonathan
    October 3, 2008 at 03:02

    Kelsie re nuculeuar

    Only to the point of apoplexy. Haven’t gotten to that part yet. Taking my pre-emptive swig of rum, thanks.

  177. 181 Jonathan
    October 3, 2008 at 03:03

    LOL Nelson, I’m way behind too.

  178. October 3, 2008 at 03:04

    Wow he was great on Sudan! Awesome! Presidential!

  179. 183 Bob in Queensland
    October 3, 2008 at 03:04

    Surely “I’m a Washington outsider” is a big “DING!”

    Caer is convinced she can see Palin ticking off talking points on a list…and that was a BIG tick!

  180. 184 Jonathan
    October 3, 2008 at 03:04

    Nukeelar weapons would be the “be-all, end-all of just too many people?”


  181. 185 Julie P
    October 3, 2008 at 03:04

    Who’s still sober?

  182. October 3, 2008 at 03:05

    sure portland mike. scored good points on Darfur.

  183. 187 Jonathan
    October 3, 2008 at 03:06

    Well they’re BIG points Bob.

  184. 188 Julie P
    October 3, 2008 at 03:06

    Bob, I was thinking she has a checklist. It was a hunch though.

  185. 189 Kelsie in Houston
    October 3, 2008 at 03:06

    I’m behind by a couple of minutes

    Mr Biden: Outstanding on Africa–as Mike says…outstanding.

    “Washington outsider” and “straight talk”–DOUBLE ding!!

  186. 190 Jonathan
    October 3, 2008 at 03:06

    I’m sober and it’s really buggin’ me there.

  187. 191 Bob in Queensland
    October 3, 2008 at 03:06

    Me Julie….a bit early in the day for me.

    …but LATER! 🙂

  188. 192 Jonathan
    October 3, 2008 at 03:08

    An awfully flimsy excuse for sobriety!

  189. 193 Kelsie in Houston
    October 3, 2008 at 03:10

    “Eye-rack” DING.

  190. 194 Julie P
    October 3, 2008 at 03:10

    What’s up with the winking?

  191. October 3, 2008 at 03:10

    I think the debate is 2 hours right?

  192. 196 Kelsie in Houston
    October 3, 2008 at 03:11

    1 1/2 hours.

  193. 197 Kelsie in Houston
    October 3, 2008 at 03:12

    Mrs Palin: “What do expect? A team of mavericks–of course we’re going to disagree…”

  194. 198 Jonathan
    October 3, 2008 at 03:14

    “Stomach for success” — has a ring to it. Unfortunate juxtaposition with Darfur though.

    Sudan will REALLY miss a piddling $40 million.

  195. October 3, 2008 at 03:14

    @ Kelsie

    mavericks my foot!!!

  196. 200 Kelsie in Houston
    October 3, 2008 at 03:16

    Mrs Palin: extra credit if you can stay on the question longer than twenty seconds.

  197. 201 Jonathan
    October 3, 2008 at 03:18

    How could I think they’d get through 90 minutes without saying “Main street!” This calls for more than a drink…

  198. 202 Bob in Queensland
    October 3, 2008 at 03:21

    You’re gonna be drunk, Jonathan…there were LOTS of “main streets”.

  199. 203 Jonathan
    October 3, 2008 at 03:21

    She comes from a house full of schoolteachers? Doggone it, how d’ya explain that then? What the heck happened there?

  200. 204 Jonathan
    October 3, 2008 at 03:25


    Maybe I’m already thinker than I drank I were.

    “John McCain has already tapped me and said, ‘That’s where I wantcha!'” Is it just me….


  201. 205 steve
    October 3, 2008 at 03:26

    “had been a good student” re: the appointment of judges. That’s HILARIOUS coming from Biden, who cheated in law school.

  202. 206 Julie P
    October 3, 2008 at 03:26

    Nice comeback about men raising children and knowing the tribulations, not just Palin.

  203. 207 Kelsie in Houston
    October 3, 2008 at 03:27

    “Maverick…….maverick” Double DING!

  204. 208 Jonathan
    October 3, 2008 at 03:27

    “VP Cheney is the most dangerous in history… Article 1 of the Constitution defines the role of the VP…”

    Well said, Sen. Biden.

  205. 209 Kelsie in Houston
    October 3, 2008 at 03:28

    Mr Biden: “Maverick he [Mr McCain] is not.”

  206. October 3, 2008 at 03:29


    this debate doesnot seem to be worth the hype

    *ducks for cover*

  207. 211 Bob in Queensland
    October 3, 2008 at 03:34

    Where were the gaffes? I was promised gaffes! I want my money back!

  208. 212 Kelsie in Houston
    October 3, 2008 at 03:35

    From the BBC’s live blog:

    Matthew Yglesias, Think Progress: I have some disagreements on national security issues with Biden, but he’s clearly able to express totally genuine opinions on issues he’s spent time thinking about. Palin, by contrast, is mechanistically reciting talking points.

  209. 214 Jonathan
    October 3, 2008 at 03:35

    “Excessive passion,” yes, that’s my only weak point too.

    Oooh, Biden choked up. I like that.

    Palen’s “diverse” list of supporters sounds like all rich white politicians. The gamut from A to C.

    To be fair, McCain WAS enough of a maverick that the GOP right wing hated him. (Hence the dingbat right wingnut running mate.) But now, not so much.

  210. 215 Julie P
    October 3, 2008 at 03:36


    Sorry too broke to refund you your money. Will you take an IOU?

  211. 216 Kelsie in Houston
    October 3, 2008 at 03:37

    So: the debate is over…

    Who won? Who lost? And of course, why? Was it everything you expected?

  212. October 3, 2008 at 03:37

    Biden hands down! To my eyes he was Presidential, and she wasn’t!

  213. 218 Julie P
    October 3, 2008 at 03:37


    I can completely agree with that.

    Palin’s checklist just hit the trash.

  214. 219 Jessica in NYC
    October 3, 2008 at 03:38

    @ Bob

    ME TOO! I am very disappointed… Especially on Biden for not going after her on the women’s rights comment she made.

  215. 220 Jonathan
    October 3, 2008 at 03:39

    “I like speaking to the American people without the filter of the mainstream media” = “I like talking about what I want instead of answering questions I don’t know in advance.”

  216. 221 Jessica in NYC
    October 3, 2008 at 03:40

    @ Julie P

    So much for a smack-down…. Lloyd Benson vs Dan Quayle gaffe is still #1.

  217. October 3, 2008 at 03:40

    @ Bob in Queensland

    Where were the gaffes? I was promised gaffes! I want my money back!

    You will when the $700bn is fully implemented …..

  218. October 3, 2008 at 03:41

    I don’t know who saw the line – but when Biden chocked up – it went through the roof!

    Biden won hands down. She tripped and was on script but that was it. Biden was the guy I always knew he would be – open warm and genuine!

  219. 224 Julie P
    October 3, 2008 at 03:41


    I think that smack down will be tough to even get close to. That was Lloyd talking and right from the heart.

  220. October 3, 2008 at 03:42

    Her gaffe was where they were asked how they had changed over time – Biden said why and what for – she said that she had to change her veto but other than that she was never wrong, lol.

  221. 226 Julie P
    October 3, 2008 at 03:43


    He great an excellent position on men and parenting. It’s not just for women anymore.

  222. 227 Bob in Queensland
    October 3, 2008 at 03:43

    Tacky time…did you notice Palin bringing a couple of her kids (including the baby) on stage at the end.

    Sorry, I’m cynical enough to take that as a deliberate “hey look, I’m just a regular mum” ploy rather than a natural thing…and I think it was tacky in the extreme.

    The thing is…I don’t want a “regular person from the main street” in high office.

  223. 228 Jessica in NYC
    October 3, 2008 at 03:44

    @ Will

    Of course, Biden won. He has experience. However, I don’t think Biden did his job. He had several opportunities to expose her incompetence and held back. He didn’t even correct her errors.

  224. 229 Jonathan
    October 3, 2008 at 03:46


    Correcting her would have appeared paternalistic and sexist, or so say the wise men. Um, wise people.

  225. October 3, 2008 at 03:47


    That is what was brilliant about him – he left her to have the rope and she basically hung herself.

    You can bet ya bottom dollar Hillary Clinton told him to do that – that was right out of the Clinton play book.

  226. 231 Julie P
    October 3, 2008 at 03:47


    Agreed. I also want someone in office who has command of the English language.

  227. October 3, 2008 at 03:49

    The baby prop thing was repulsive.

    Pat Buchanan is saying how great she was. It is amazing that he can see a President in her speech and presentation. I agree with Bob… I don’t want Joe Six-Pack for a President.

  228. 233 Jessica in NYC
    October 3, 2008 at 03:51

    @ Jonathan, Will and Julie

    Ah, yes you are absolutely right and have good points. I’m just disappointed, he let the women’s rights comment go… it’s an important issue for me. 😦

  229. October 3, 2008 at 03:51

    @ Will

    You can bet ya bottom dollar Hillary Clinton told him to do that – that was right out of the Clinton play book.

    *Well said!!*

  230. October 3, 2008 at 03:53

    Palin’s Consistent blinking was a bit scary , some sort of code or what?

  231. 236 Bob in Queensland
    October 3, 2008 at 03:54

    I suspect that Biden was firmly instructed to avoid appearing a bully with her–which would have been easy.

    Instead his approach was more subtle…but as was said, Biden came across as open, warm and genuine…and presidential. Palin twisted questions to suit what she could talk about and seemed ill at ease and unsure of herself.

    That difference may be enough…and is probably safer than the risk of appearing to be an agressive bully.

  232. 237 Jessica in NYC
    October 3, 2008 at 03:54

    @ Bob

    “regular person from the main street”

    Yes, that’s what got Bush elected and look at where we are now…

  233. 238 Jonathan
    October 3, 2008 at 03:54

    Over for me too finally. By odrinary standards, she was not perfect, but by Palin standards, my stars, she was spectacular/super-duper/stellar! Let’s savor the experience; it’s the last we will see of her before November.

    Better than the Presidential debate, if you ask me.

    [Oh NO, I just realized I’m Sarah Palin. No matter what the conversation is about, it turns into taxes. Time for a serious rethink. Yuck. ]

  234. 239 Venessa
    October 3, 2008 at 04:00

    “I like speaking to the American people without the filter of the mainstream media” = “I like talking about what I want instead of answering questions I don’t know in advance.”

    Jonathan ~ You nailed that one. I agree that it seemed there was a checklist for Palin and although she looked nervous she was well rehearsed. This I’m sure pleases Republicans that were worried.

    Bob ~ Did you hear her immediately ask for her kids after the debate? If there was an alterior motive for getting them on stage fast it was recorded.

  235. 240 Bob in Queensland
    October 3, 2008 at 04:00

    Could be worse Jonathan…at least you don’t fear monger on security no matter what the question is!

  236. 241 Jonathan
    October 3, 2008 at 04:02


    That’s just cuz I got nothing to lose.

  237. 243 Roberto
    October 3, 2008 at 04:07

    RE “”Biden won hands down.””

    ———- Typical cheerleading comment.

    Both did well by their supporters, but it’s independent vote they are scrapping for, the nonbelievers.

    One thing I’ve noticed is both McCain and Biden are considerably more animated and passionate about issues than their much younger counterparts. Their convictions are much more developed and stronger. Obama and Palin haven’t lived through the thick and the thin long enough to have any more than policy points they recite.

    It strikes me that if we could eliminate the congress and executive branch and just have these two govern by a mutual concensus, the country as a whole would be better served at this point or at least buy time until the country stablized and people weren’t stampeded wall street pirates.

  238. 244 Jonathan
    October 3, 2008 at 04:09

    It pains me to say this more than anyone could know… but Sarah Palin “won,” just because she was coherent. “Lowering the bar” succeeded with bells on.

    Absent that, she looked stiff and brittle, but that’s the elephant in the room.

    MSNBC guy just said she was like “a wolverine attacking his pants leg: attack, attack, attack.”

  239. 245 Kelsie in Houston
    October 3, 2008 at 04:10

    “It strikes me that if we could eliminate the congress and executive branch and just have these two govern by a mutual concensus…”

    We tried that, with the “Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Friendship”…it didn’t work so well.

  240. 246 Jonathan
    October 3, 2008 at 04:16

    (I think everyone is off looking up the “Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Friendship”)

  241. 247 Julie P
    October 3, 2008 at 04:18

    Just so they don’t have to look up the Articles of Confederation here it is:


  242. 248 Jonathan
    October 3, 2008 at 04:19


    You mean, they would become judges? Supreme Court justices?

  243. 249 Kelsie in Houston
    October 3, 2008 at 04:22

    Jonathan and Julie:
    LOL! Thanks for the link; I think Roberto was referring directly to the candidates, but the Articles of Confederation vested executive and legislative power in the Congress–very similar to what was (humorously) suggested…

  244. 250 Jonathan
    October 3, 2008 at 04:30

    Thanks Julie. Duh, I thought it meant that other Confederacy, from the unpleasantness of ~150 yrs ago. War between the States, I think y’all call it. OK, never mind….

  245. 251 Bob in Queensland
    October 3, 2008 at 04:31

    I agree that, in one sense at least, Palin “won” but as was said, this is more because she wasn’t the disaster many wanted. to see. However, this does represent a “lowering of the bar” because of the Couric interview.

    Overall, Biden still put in a more statesmanlike performance but this was expected by most…so no surprise.

  246. 252 Jessica in NYC
    October 3, 2008 at 04:36

    I can’t wait for Oliver Stone’s new movie to come out, “W”. Whooa!

  247. 253 Jonathan
    October 3, 2008 at 04:37

    @Bob, like McCain said today (about I know not what), life just isn’t fair. Any more insights from your better half?

    @Julie~ Wow! Thanks also for that libertarian website. I just never get enough.

  248. 254 Jonathan
    October 3, 2008 at 04:46

    Wow, this is strange. I just went to another site for a second to sniff out “W” and now everybody’s avatars and gravatars are gone.

    Guess it’s another couple of weeks until “W” release Jessica. Hopefully it will be [coughs delicately] available somewhere before then.

  249. 255 Bob in Queensland
    October 3, 2008 at 04:48

    @ Jonathan

    I just asked Caer if she had any further comments…her big summary is that it was clear Palin’s performance was the product of intensive coaching but that she will quickly revert to self.

    …and she defines that “self” is to rely on the family down home image instead of facts…and to “go flirty” when when she doesn’t know an answer.

  250. 257 Jessica in NYC
    October 3, 2008 at 04:55


    🙂 Yeah baby, NYC gets everything first… Yay! I guess this is why we pay $13.00+ for movies.

  251. 258 Jonathan
    October 3, 2008 at 04:59

    Thanks, Bob. Tell Caer hi for me. I was certain that Sarah Palin would be locked up tight after the debate, but that was before the debate. Unfortunately, if she can continue to be coherent, that will be more than enough for the purpose, down-home and flirty and all. We’ve seen how her rabid fans didn’t even seem to mind it before, when she was a complete cipher. Bless their hearts.

    Biden was not entirely innocent of the yucky folksy touch himself. My least favorite was “Where I come from, we don’t call that [confiscatory taxes for wealth redistribution] redistribution; we call that fairness.” Ickypoo. It was a race to the bottom by both, in terms of populism and aw-shucks us-little-people cornballing.

    Looks like just us and the crickets, so I will say tallyho–whatever that means–and thanks to all for a fun real-time experience.

  252. 259 Jonathan
    October 3, 2008 at 05:00

    Wait a minute Jessica, so do we pay that much for movies. I think. (Been a while.) It’s already open there?

  253. 260 Bob in Queensland
    October 3, 2008 at 05:05

    Good night Jonathan….though I believe “tally ho” means you’re off to chase a fox!

    As for cringe-worthy moments, at least this debate didn’t feature a moment as bad as the “battle of the bracelets” last time.

  254. 261 Jonathan
    October 3, 2008 at 05:11

    Bob (can I call ya Joe?)

    Fox-chasing–not tonight; gotta get up early tomorrow. So long….

  255. 262 Jessica in NYC
    October 3, 2008 at 05:18

    Jonathan, (Can I call ya Joe? Wait, let me grab a baby at 11 PM)

    Where Cali? Nope, not for another week. I’ll let you know.

  256. 263 Dennis@OCC
    October 3, 2008 at 05:25

    I hope everyone enjoy the DEBATE….So, i promised that i would update you regarding my opinions….

    I am running late….


  257. 264 Tom D Ford
    October 3, 2008 at 05:26

    @ Jessica in NYC October 2, 2008 at 7:14 pm

    “It’s important, because McCain could die in office and Palin would put the U.S. back in the stone age.”

    I admire words and wordsmiths highly, I like concise, elegant, (in the mathematical way), direct and poignant words and the people who write them, and I love exposing the truth starkly.

    Thanks, Jessica, you nailed it!

  258. 265 Jessica in NYC
    October 3, 2008 at 05:33

    Where was Jens all night? He didn’t come out to play… Venessa? Amy?

    SO it was not a smack down, but as Will so eloquently put it, she did hang herself.

  259. 266 Tom D Ford
    October 3, 2008 at 05:46

    OK, I’ll eat some of my words; Palin showed up appropriately dressed, she was not an airhead although she worked beauty queen “Smiling Bimbo” to death, she read the monitors like the “Media Pro” that she is, she reframed questions and answered them as the questions she would rather have been asked instead of the questions Gwen Ifill actually asked.

    And Joe Biden was honest and forthright, stumbling over some words and correcting himself immediately when he knew he erred.

    The question I was really left with was: Why does the magnificent Gwen Ifill use crutches? She came up with good questions, she was dressed appropriately, and acted appropriately, she did a great job.

    Ifill? Presidential!

    Biden? Vice Presidential!

    Palin? She was “Peter Principled” way over her head with Mayor let alone Governor.

  260. 267 Tom D Ford
    October 3, 2008 at 06:04

    @ selena in Canada October 3, 2008 at 12:22 am

    “Do you feel prepared to meet with heads of state from around the world at events such as these?

    Why wouldn’t she be? Call girls are always ready to meet them and listen to their problems. 🙂

    I am sure a good Christian girl would be qualified.”

    You do cut deep. I’m in awe.

  261. 268 Tom D Ford
    October 3, 2008 at 06:22

    I am embarrassed for the US, I hated Maggie “TINA” Thatcher and what she stood for, but I sure recognized her intelligence, and I just cannot say the same for Palin.

    The US and the world deserves better.

    President Palin?

    President Palin?

    Well, OK Bush has set the precedent but do we have to suffer from an extended reign of stupidity for four more years with McCain-Palin?

    Isn’t it time to elect a smart person?


  262. 269 Jessica in NYC
    October 3, 2008 at 06:27

    @ Tom D Ford

    “I admire words and wordsmiths highly, I like concise, elegant, (in the mathematical way), direct and poignant words and the people who write them, and I love exposing the truth starkly.”
    Thanks, 🙂 I have brief moments in which my hands convey exactly how my brain “feels”.

    “Well, OK Bush has set the precedent but do we have to suffer from an extended reign of stupidity for four more years with McCain-Palin? Isn’t it time to elect a smart person?”
    God, I sure hope so. I crave change from the cow-boy politics that have devastated the US for 8 years. We cannot take much more. Bush has brought us dangerously close to a depression. How much worst does it have to get, before Americans wake up!

  263. 270 Caer, Australia
    October 3, 2008 at 06:29

    @ Jonathan

    Thanks for the greetings – I’ll try to hang around a tad more on the weekend and maybe catch you in realtime…


  264. 271 Tom D Ford
    October 3, 2008 at 06:33

    @ Kelsie in Houston October 3, 2008 at 2:18 am

    “Mr Biden feels relaxed throughout his speaking

    Mrs Palin responding to “redistribution”: immediate redirect to something less specific than a direct answer to Mr Biden…”

    “Redistribution” is a code word for “Communism-Socialism” among the fearful far right.

  265. 272 Tom D Ford
    October 3, 2008 at 06:42

    @ Kelsie in Houston October 3, 2008 at 1:34 am

    Haha–very well, but remember your Shakespeare: “Brevity is the soul of wit”…”

    And E. Hemingway.

    But my brother taught me about J Fennimore Coopers very long and exquisitely descriptive sentences to counter my insistence on short.

    Write on, wordsmiths!


  266. 273 Tom D Ford
    October 3, 2008 at 06:55

    @ Jonathan October 3, 2008 at 2:31 am


    Yes, she does bash oil companies. Why funny?”


    Alaska is a whore for Oil Companies! Palin gets to “bash” them as long as she puts out the “Big Oil Dividends” for the Alaskan people, she is the ultimate “Welfare Queen Statist”.

    The real question is: what the hell will Alaskans do when the oil runs out?

    They’ve wasted their Big Oil Dividends on whoring for votes when they could have created new industries and jobs!

  267. 274 Jessica in NYC
    October 3, 2008 at 06:56

    @ Caer, Australia
    Hi there…. thanks for your point by point body language interpretation through Bob.
    Nice having your input. *kissypoo* LOL
    @Tom D Ford
    “Alaska is a whore for Oil Companies! Palin gets to “bash” them as long as she puts out the “Big Oil Dividends” for the Alaskan people, she is the ultimate “Welfare Queen Statist”.”

    LOL, preach it!

    “Do you feel prepared to meet with heads of state from around the world at events such as these? Why wouldn’t she be? Call girls are always ready to meet them and listen to their problems….I am sure a good Christian girl would be qualified.”

    I have ne-ver heard such language… my poor virgin ears. 😛

  268. 275 Tom D Ford
    October 3, 2008 at 07:11

    @ Kelsie in Houston October 3, 2008 at 3:37 am

    “So: the debate is over…

    Who won? Who lost? And of course, why? Was it everything you expected?”

    At the end I tried to imagine Sarah Palin in control of what for some forty or fifty years has been called the “nuclear football” in the US and …

  269. 276 Tom D Ford
    October 3, 2008 at 07:39

    Say goodnight Bob.

    Goodnight, Bob!

  270. 277 Charles
    October 3, 2008 at 08:03

    You say you are disgusted at Biden because he lies. Yet Palin has lied constantly about many things in the last month and you defend her.

    She has demonstrated a history of having the same power abusing, I’ll do what I want attitude as W., not just with Trooper Gate but also while she was Mayor.

    She has told the entire world about her very extreme beliefs. People with extreme views commit extreme acts, that is an historical fact. You need only look at Stalin, Hitler, Islamic Terrorists, the KKK, Religious Cults, and many more groups both past and present. Remember those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. What you need to be asking is given her views, past history, and beliefs compared to Bidens who do you think is more likely to push the button?

    As far as her debate abilities, I have watched several of her debates and interviews as well as read comments from people who have debated her. The one thing that is clear to me, the people she debates, and most intelligent people is that she almost never actually answers a question. The fact is she doesn’t have a clue what the issues are, and she doesn’t care. When she excepted the VP position she thought she could pull the same stunts she pulled to become Governor of Alaska and found out that the American people don’t want childish behavior and anecdotes.

    Even in the VP debate with all of her obvious coaching she still failed to answer questions. I think it was great that Biden called her on it. If you pay attention to her at first she looks like a deer caught in headlights. Her eyes were all wide, and she was barely moving. As the debate went on her answers were much like a school bullies taunts, not like someone that is ready to run this country.

  271. 278 Hilina
    October 3, 2008 at 08:40

    Hello America

    When are you guys going to wake up? have you not learn in the past .you chose Bush again and again and know you want the same .Because I do not see the difference between Bush and McCain.Sarah I do not have anything to say .She is just not qualified at all !


  272. 279 Pangolin-California
    October 3, 2008 at 09:55

    Face it world. American voters who haven’t made up their minds yet about this election are swimming at the thin end of the intellectual pond. That’s the quick and dirty explanation as to why this “debate” is an insult to informed voters.

    There is no “clean coal” technology that is deployable. The US cannot, as in defying the laws of physics, solve it’s energy problems by drilling for more oil. It can’t even solve it’s transportation fuels problem. Climate change solutions generally involve capping emissions of CO2 rather than burning more. The financial bailout will have to be funded by loans from outside the US. There is no definition for “winning” an occupation. Both tax plans proposed are works of pure fiction in the face of a recession. The list goes on.

    If you were an honest person looking for help solving the worlds problems there was no meat here.

  273. 280 Matthew
    October 3, 2008 at 10:16


    Well said and well reasoned synopsis of Sarah Palin’s real character, and her calculating and ill motivated stance on issues she has no experience of whatsoever.

    I think she gave a good account of herself though and didn’t falter to any great extent. Joe Biden was choking at the leash on a couple of occasions to snap and bite, but drew himself back in and took a valium for good measure. Probably advised to do so, in case he upset too many floating Hilliaryites still out there, and by their actions might have a wholly negative effect and outcome on the result, come polling day. Go ahead and BURN YOUR OWN PARTY if you so wish. But be ready for the consequences. A frail and misguided old man – McCain, living on borrowed time, that with the huge weight and pressure upon his shoulders to turn things around away from the Bush years (just another cleverly hidden version of the same in my book), would be an immense burden to anyone.

    Also no one is asking any serious questions about his many failings inside and outside of political office. He’s Mr Cuddly & Wholesome, like the “Hockey Mum” persona of Palin being projected to the people and the more than likely all and decisive mid-West USA where it’s all going to play out in the end.

    Why did the Republicans back a potentially coffin in waiting candidate? Why not get a similar man in age and stature to Obama to take the reins in the race?

    I can’t work that one out. A maverick for maverick sake. Why?

    If he does go to the great Republican cafe in the sky and sits down to share a cup or two with Ronnie and others. Then the presidential mantle immediately passes to a woman who has not once ventured outside of the North American continent and doesn’t possess the ability to communicate on an equal footing with seasoned leaders, because her mindset is USA IS RIGHT you whoever you are YOU’RE WRONG!
    Democrats playing a clever and waiting game yes, but you can hold back too much on occasion!

  274. 281 selena in Canada
    October 3, 2008 at 11:50

    Ah! Say what you like guys, she surprised everyone. She fitted in as well as any of the past Vice-Presidential debaters.

    And, if I am not greatly mistaken, main street is sick and tired of the supposed intellectuals running currently running the show. To many on main street she is change!

  275. 282 Roberto
    October 3, 2008 at 12:53

    RE “”American voters who haven’t made up their minds yet about this election are swimming at the thin end of the intellectual pond.””

    —— Yessssssssssssss!!!!

    And and when all the lockstep reds and blues are sleeping soundly the nite before election, us slimey doofs are gonna ooooooze out of the pond and muck up the world in high gloss slippery green and brown so we can have a nice place to practice our backstroke and defective breeding operations.

  276. October 3, 2008 at 12:55

    Well, crap. She didn’t flop and make the whole thing a lot less stressful for the next to weeks as we meander towards the growing evidential end.

    Palin was well instructed and applied a classic debate technique taught in high school and beauty pageants across the globe. Every politician uses the technique to answer questions outside their area of expertise’s. Palin used it to answer every question. That technique is to first repeat the question, and then craft the answer to talk about a topic you want to talk about. An example can be seen here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj3iNxZ8Dww

    Done right it can make you look insightful. The key word is “look”. It worked last night, especially under reduced expectation. When done wrong it looks like the youtube video.

    Her school girl “gotcha” tone that was intentionally trying to draw out the Joe Bidden that puts his foot in his mouth often was annoying. I was relieved to see Joe didn’t take the bait.

  277. 284 Brett
    October 3, 2008 at 13:19

    I love how Palin continuously tries to relate to ‘soccer’ moms and sports mothers lol

  278. 285 Hilina
    October 3, 2008 at 13:37

    “ street is sick and tired of the supposed intellectuals running currently running the show”
    Because they are tired of “supposed intellectuals” let us chose something else let us go for Miss Alaska
    WOW! I am very surprised by peoples reasoning. Based on what they chose there candidates

  279. 286 Angela in Washington
    October 3, 2008 at 13:55


    I may be biased but I want an intellectual running this country. I want someone who knows more about the economy, foriegn policy, energy, and the healthcare issues than me. Palin performed better than expected, sfter the interviews but everyone knew she could perform because she is a governor and she did well at the convention. My main issue with her is that I think she has experience but her knowledge deals with Alaska. I did not like her style it was annoying but she appeals to a different sector. I have nothing in common with this lady, except the fact that I am a woman. If the truth be told, she reminds me of my neighbors down south and I don’t want any of them running this country.

  280. 287 Kelsie in Houston
    October 3, 2008 at 13:55

    Claim: Joe Biden said that the US “commanding general in Afghanistan said the surge principle in Iraq will not work in Afghanistan”. Sarah Palin responded by saying that “McClellan did not say definitively the surge principles would not work in Afghanistan”.

    Fact: On 2 October, the Washington Post quoted the head of the Nato-led coalition in Afghanistan, Gen David McKiernan, as saying: “The word I don’t use for Afghanistan is ‘surge’.”

    Verdict: Mrs Palin not only got the name of the US commander in Afghanistan wrong, but it would seem she also distorted his position.

    From the BBC’s “fact-checker” page.

  281. 288 Angela in Washington
    October 3, 2008 at 13:55

    Palin performed better than expected and I beleive the people that liked her at the convention had another reason to gravitate towards her again. She was unappealing at the convention to me. I respect her but I don’t agree with many of her values and I would hate if she were the VP of the US. However, if she is then so be it. This country has already be represented by someone less than perfect, it is ok if the VP is a couple of rungs lower than him. I think W. and Cheney were so much better than her. There is something about her that I throughly dislike.

  282. 289 selena in Canada
    October 3, 2008 at 14:03


    Like you, I am surprised by people’s reasoning.

    People think that because Sarah Palin comes from a small rural State and was Miss Alaska that she doesn’t have any brains. They think because she is a woman she has less brains.

    How on earth can people keep stereotyping at the very same time the economy has been ruined by the people with brains?

    Yes, yes, the reasoning of people is something to behold. 🙂 Graduate from Harvard and you have a free ticket to rule and plunder.

    Sarah Palin has deeply religious right wing views, which are outside the pale. But get this… the Republican Party is filled with such people and some of them are Harvard graduates.

  283. 290 Hilina
    October 3, 2008 at 14:24


    You know one thing I am sick and tired of us a woman. When we cannot handle criticism we just go like that is because we are woman. We will never progress if we could not face our criticisms .Sarah, it is not because she is a woman she has les brain it is just she does not have the experience and the knowledge for the job, and it is ok it has nothing with being a woman. It happens to man as well, And for all the republicans if the vote goes in public I think they will get the same criticism

  284. 291 Brett
    October 3, 2008 at 14:26

    I did like the 3rd grade shout out / extra credit statement Palin made…. It was cute lol

  285. 292 Jennifer
    October 3, 2008 at 14:38

    This debate was so important because who is elected will play a big factor in if we are able get out of the mess we are in. Of course, these people aren’t going to work miracles overnight but we do have to start somewhere.

    I believe that Sarah Palin won the debate. The fact that SP stated right away that she may not answer questions the way the moderator or Biden liked was acceptable to me. We have seen the media distort many things about this woman because of it’s bias and Pro-Obama stance. It was not a time for being passive especially considering this little morsel:


    If the moderator wrote a book about McCain; the dustbunnies would hit the fan in protest! We would not hear the end of it when Biden failed; that would be the reason for sure.

    Biden stumbled many times because SP beat him to EVERY punch. All he did was point out how bad Bush is and how great Obama is! I have a hard time believing someone who has stated Obama is not experienced enough to be President tell me how qualified he is at every turn. Bush made mistakes but he has become everyone’s scapegoat. When will we stop playing the blame game, accept responsibility, and make the changes necessary to stabilize ourselves? Yes, the past matters, but we can’t get so bogged down by it that we do not move forward. Even when the moderator asked what would be different if they were president, Biden stated that he would carry out Obama’s policies. He has no brain of his own? As for the crying incident; that was a nice power play. I really dislike insincerity. I also realize that if it were SP who had done that they would have pounced on her like no tomorrow for being “weak”. Biden directed all of his attacks at McCain which shows that he realized that he could not attack SP directly or be seen as a bully. As it was, I saw him as a good lap poodle!

    As for the other trivial things; SP’s accent, her clothing (totally appropriate by the way), and having her family with her on stage at the end of the debate; these are all petty attempts to find any reason under the sun to discount her.

  286. 293 Roberto
    October 3, 2008 at 14:38

    RE “”“The word I don’t use for Afghanistan is ’surge’.”””

    ——– The question arises, not only what part of the above don’t Biden and Palin understand, but what part of it don’t you understand?

    The statement doesn’t directly address whether or not a surge would work or is even called for. It’s an open ended oblique statement that essentially means nothing, save filling reporter’s space for sound bites, column requirements, or talking heads interpretation.

  287. 294 Roberto
    October 3, 2008 at 15:05

    RE “”There is something about her that I throughly dislike.””

    ———– Ms Palin has very sharp diction that she mixes with with little “aw shucks” plainfolk/country mannerisms as she fires off the attack. There is a reason why the Arnold Schwartzenegger/Jesse Ventura posturing, preening, anti intellectuals are making inroads into the political process.

    People are fed up with the professional, lawyered politicians dominating politics which was originally set up to be a more representative background mix. The farmer/rancher, foreman, firefighter, teacher, small business owner seldom has the clout or profile to overcome the party lawyer selections save some local races.

    It’s a sounding of the alarm that the politicians haven’t been taking care of their constituencies and have run the wheels off the country. More sensible types wish for more sensible government, but until they start making better choices and holding pols responsible, Ms Palin and more to follow will continue to make inroads as Americans are desperately wanting someone to fight for them.

  288. 295 Bryan
    October 3, 2008 at 15:22

    We got good nooze and we got bad nooze today from the World Service:

    First the good news – from the BBC bus touring the US, driven (though probably not physically) by Alan Little. From the bit that I heard, this was a well-balanced and interesting discussion, with Little making no attempt to stamp his own views on the proceedings. Contributors appeared to fairly represent Democrats and Republicans. (I recall that a programme by Ros Atkins from the bus was also hosted with an easy, non-partisan style and was a pleasure to listen to.)

    More good news in the form of this statement from an early morning newscast:

    For the most part, Sarah Palin spoke fluently, without the gaffes that have become the staples of late night comedy slots.

    It’s good news because it veers sharply from the BBC’s incessant trashing of Palin.

    And it made this bit of bad news, in the form of an e-mail read out on the programme, all the more incongruent:

    She seemed to be struggling to form coherent sentences.

    Nothing wrong with reading out a negative e-mail, but this one was obviously aired so that the presenter could make this punchline:

    That about sums her up, proving he doesn’t understand that his function as a reporter is not to try to impress friends who might be listening to him, but to report the news.

    I’m not making this up.

  289. 296 Angela in Washington
    October 3, 2008 at 15:35


    I think it is awesome that Palin was able to excite you. I may be a bit biased but I was not impressed. She did not appeal to me and she did speak to me in a way that helped me. I view her as a woman who has kids and is working, plus the governor of the great state of Alaska. She may appleal to some people with her folksy comments but they irritated me. She tried to get people to see she was like them, which I understand but she wasn’t able to show me why she would be ready to lead at a moments notice. Perhaps I am just picky but I want the number one and two politicians in this country to know and understand the issues. Her performance showed a person who was lectured on the policies and issues but she did not understand those issues.

    However, as I said before I think she is good for Alaska I just don’t think she is good for the nation. McCain is an able politician but I widh he would have picked someone more experienced, at least understanding what affects this country and not just Alaska. Things need to change in Washington but she would not do much to bring people together.

  290. 297 Bryan
    October 3, 2008 at 15:40

    (Having some difficulties posting comments. They just vanish. This second part of the above comment doesn’t want to appear on the blog with its red stripe awaiting moderation):

    And it made this bit of bad news, in the form of an e-mail read out on the programme, all the more incongruent:

    She seemed to be struggling to form coherent sentences.

    Nothing wrong with reading out a negative e-mail, but this one was obviously aired so that the presenter could make this punchline:

    That about sums her up, proving he doesn’t understand that his function as a reporter is not to try to impress friends who might be listening to him, but to report the news.

    I’m not making this up.

  291. 298 Angela in Washington
    October 3, 2008 at 15:48


    I already voted, so the debate didn’t sway me one way or another. I perfer someone who is more polished but that is my opinion. It scares the living daylights out of me that people that I was around in high school could work their way up to the most powerful position in the country. I am not against small town values but her beleifs are contrary to mine. Many people were pleased with her performance but I just don’t understand the appeal. I want a leader that can lead and bring people together. Regardless of how she came across, I don’t agree with the policies. So she wouldn’t appeal to me, anyways.

    I would never say that she has any of the views of people I know but she reminds me of many of the people from where I grew up, which is a very backwards place. Hence the reason I said there is something about her that I throughly dislike. I don’t know her but she comes across that way and that is quite unsettling. Again, I am not saying that she is backwards she just reminds me of certain indiviudals.

    I apologize for the length and the scattered thoughts.

  292. 299 Bryan
    October 3, 2008 at 16:17


    I’ve watched around half of the recording of the debate. Palin is looking good. I like her style and frankness. She’s used the expressions “heck” and “Bless their hearts.”

    The left would sneer and say that’s just an indication that she doesn’t know where she is and is not behaving appropriately.

    I think it’s down to earth and refreshing. I like this woman.

    Wouldn’t it be something if we could have more traditionalMom and apple pie type of people in positions of power in the good old US of A?

    What would be wrong with that?

  293. 300 steve
    October 3, 2008 at 16:29

    @ Bryan

    It sounded like she just memorized some talking points. Her performance was like how Bush would debate. However, Biden’s no angel himself, and the great irony he was on the judiciary committee and deciding whether judges should be confirmed, and he stated one of the criteria for that is whether they were “good students” while he cheated in law school.

    Neither Palin or Biden admitted the real problem, people living beyond their means. She blamed the bankers for making the loans, and not the poor credit people who wanted to live way beyond their means.

    You can’t all have that HDTV. But nobody would dare tell people to live within their means.

  294. 301 Bryan
    October 3, 2008 at 16:39

    Nelson Isibor October 2, 2008 at 8:10 pm,

    Yes, I just thought it was more of the same from a BBC that seemed intent on trashing Sarah Palin, and had started trashing her from the very moment that she gained the nomination. This was not simple bias, but active political campaigning against a perceived opponent. It was unbelievable behaviour for an allegedly impartial news organisation.

    But, as I indicated at 3:22 pm, the BBC seems to be moderating its stance somewhat.

    Could be that someone high up in the BBC has become aware of the bias through complaints or simple observation of the news output and is, as they say, kicking butt.

  295. 302 Bryan
    October 3, 2008 at 16:56

    steve October 3, 2008 at 4:29 pm

    I agree that they wont dare tell people to rein themselves regarding spending. This is a basic dishonesty that is widespread among politicians. Gotta get the people on their side and anything that vaguely resembles criticism of the voters is a no-no.

    Still, I prefer Palin. Biden is just too PC for me.

  296. 303 steve
    October 3, 2008 at 17:02

    @ Bryan

    If Biden didn’t have his dishonest streak, the cheating in law school, etc, and the hypocrisy of that while sitting on the judiciary committee, I think he would be vastly more qualified to be President than Palin, even though they are running for the VP. I think Biden is a lot more informed than she is. She may be good on a state level, but not national level. But since she’s only going to be the VP, which holds basically no power, it doesn’t really matter.

  297. 304 Angela in Washington
    October 3, 2008 at 17:19


    I am glad you want a traditional “mom and apple pie’ as the VP or the President of the US. I respect your opinion. Her quotes got under my skin. She seems like she is a capable person to govern Alaska but I don’t want her in DC. I have a problem with the folksy comments I have heard them most of my life, they are condensending. I was talking to a co-worker today and stated that I want someone polished and able to speak with dignity to our allies and enemies. I want someone who represents the best and brightest Americans but who can understand the struggle of all people. The only thing she can understand with me is the fact that I am a woman.

    I don’t respect Palin because she distorts her accomplishments but I presume everyone does. To be completely frank when I listen to her I think about the “—necks” that I went to school with. Please tell me why I would want to support someone that reminds me of a —neck?

  298. 305 Charles
    October 3, 2008 at 17:23

    I am amazed that most of you still don’t get the point. It isn’t that Palin isn’t an intellectual. It is that in all of her interviews since being selected and all of her debates when running for Governor she has not once shown even a basic grasp of the issue, nor does she care and it shows. If you were interviewing her for a job and she answered your questions with non-answers, you would be like that sounds great but you didn’t answer my question so I have to assume you aren’t qualified.

    Anyone with confidence could debate as well as she did if they were coached for a month. The fact is that most Americans have a better understanding of what is happening and the world around them than she does. Even without the coaching she should have been able to answer the question about what she reads to get her news. Seriously, how hard is it to say I get my news from the Internet, or The St Louis Post Dispatch, or The New York Times, or Stars and Stripes, or some local paper. It’s not rocket science she could have even said she watches CNN or listens to radio stations.

    Sarah Palin makes Dan Quayle look smart. I remember watching W. speak next to Tony Blair and thinking people in other countries must think Americans are uneducated because the man sounds barely literate. Palin takes this to a whole new level. Could you imagine having this woman in diplomatic talks with another world leader? First someone would have to coach her on what to say and point to a map of where their country and possibly her own as well. Then the other leader would ask her a question and she would either repeat his question and go on some tangent like she did when asked about the bailout and she started talking about jobs and health care. Or maybe she will say she will get back to them on it like she did with so many other questions. Is this really a person you want to represent our country?

    When she was running for Alaska Governor she was asked in a debate to name a bill that was passed into law that she didn’t agree with. OK, nobody expects you to say the full formal name of the bill, but they expect you to come up with your answer in a way that everyone will know what you are talking about. For example if the question were asked in Illinois many people would say the Smoking Ban. What Palin did was what she always does. Repeat the question and go off on a tangent about something totally unrelated. That time it was about the former Governor.

  299. 306 Charles
    October 3, 2008 at 17:23

    Now let’s forget for a moment the woman is clearly a simpleton and her and McCain both believe that American voters are dumber than she is.

    The woman is also very, very extreme in her views. So extreme in fact that most normal people would think that she was insane. Really, does any sane patriotic American even think about banning books? Do normal people really go to church and get hands laid on them or just the crazy people you read about in tabloids? Does any rational or compassionate person think it is OK to make the victim of incest or rape have a child they don’t want? Then you have her beliefs in Creationism. Neither the Bible nor science can explain everything. The difference is when science discovers something new it changes its views, when a religion is told an old belief is no longer true it rejects the evidence and believes what it wants anyway until it no longer can. Do we really want to go back to believing the Earth is flat and the Sun revolves around the Earth? Let us not forget that our Constitution grants Freedom of Religion. So even if she and some other extremist believe in Creationism it is still religion and has no place in our schools unless you want to teach the beliefs of every other religion as well. You can not legally or ethically teach one set of religious beliefs without teaching them all.

    I am a US Army veteran. I have served in other countries and I have seen how life is different here compared to other places. I don’t want to see this country loose any more civil liberties or constitutional rights than it already has under W. McCain is not a Maverick, Ron Paul was and you see where it got him. Palin is a liar, and extremist, and totally clueless.

    As for taxes there is a cartoon on Fiscal Conservatives and Tax and Spend Liberals. Do your research, while the figures may not be 100% accurate the general message is. It list:
    1. Ronald Reagan – Fiscal Conservative – $200+ Billion Deficit
    2. George Bush – Fiscal Conservative – $300 Billion Deficit
    3. Bill Clinton – Tax and Spend Liberal – $200+ Billion Surplus
    4. George W Bush – Fiscal Conservative – $482 Billion Deficit

    Anyone see a pattern here? Most of our Presidents have been Republicans, do some research and you will find the economy, unemployment, and the deficit are almost always worse under the Republican. In fact income taxes where started in the early 1900’s under a Republican President. Before that the government got it’s income mostly from foreign and not it’s own people. The amendment that stated no direct tax shall be laid on the people for longer than 2 years was repealed. This would be much like saying we passed a new amendment that takes away your Freedom of Speech, or Right to Peacefully Assemble, or Right to a Fair Trail. Forget the fact that it is unconstitutional for the government to spy on Americans without just cause, they are already doing that in the name of National security.

    Under McCain/Palin you don’t need to worry about terrorists destroying this country because they will just continue taking away rights and freedoms given to us by our Founding Fathers and paid for with the blood of our Veterans.

  300. 307 Angela in Washington
    October 3, 2008 at 17:24


    You and I differ because I want a PC politician. I am glad that many people enjoyed the folksy antedotes. I am one that cannot stand the way many people talk, to the point that I will not watch certain programs. It is a really bad trait but those antedotes and the sound just annoyed me. I was cringing throughout the whole debate. Which is ironic because I also hate the sound of my own voice. I wouldn’t want someone that sounded like me in power either, I sound like a complete airhead.

  301. 308 Bryan
    October 3, 2008 at 17:54

    selena in Canada October 3, 2008 at 12:22 am,

    That was a really foul comment. What have you got against Sarah Palin and what have you got against Christians? Imagine if someone had made a comment like that about a Muslim lady. Does anyone imagine for one minute that it would have been allowed on this blog?

    You should delete it along with the references made to it by Tom D Ford and Jessica.

    Since you are a moderator you will be able to that.

  302. 309 selena in Canada
    October 3, 2008 at 18:02


    I am one of few on this blog who is supporting Sarah Palin. You don’t read my posts??

  303. 310 Angela in Washington
    October 3, 2008 at 18:08


    I beleive the comment was meant to reiterate if someone with no morals and values could meet with foreign leaders, a person who had values and morals would definitely be able to associate with leaders. I think my comments were probably more offensive than hers.

  304. 311 Bryan
    October 3, 2008 at 18:14

    Selena, yes I have read some of your comments where you mention that Palin would be good because of her inexperience since those with experience have made such a mess. And I agreed with one of them. But I didn’t realise you were actually expressing support for her.

    I came across strongly because your comment made me really angry. Maybe it was ironic or maybe you were mocking the others who were mocking Palin and maybe I have not read you correctly. I don’t know, but I still think that comment, as it stands, should be deleted.

  305. 312 steve
    October 3, 2008 at 18:18

    So what were the major gaffes? Palin got the commander in Afghanistan wrong, and Biden got Article I of the Constitution wrong.

    “BIDEN: Vice President Cheney has been the most dangerous vice president we’ve had probably in American history. The idea he doesn’t realize that Article I of the Constitution defines the role of the vice president of the United States, that’s the Executive Branch. He works in the Executive Branch. He should understand that. Everyone should understand that.”

  306. 313 Bryan
    October 3, 2008 at 18:32

    Angela in Washington October 3, 2008 at 6:08 pm

    Yes, I see your point. But I think you can also see how that comment could be seriously misinterpreted.

    Anyway, people talk about setting the bar low for Sarah Palin. I guess that really is setting the bar low.

  307. 314 Charles
    October 3, 2008 at 18:42

    @Steve, yes Biden was wrong that Article I was about the Executive Branch when it is really about the Legislative Branch. However he was right about Article I defining part of the role of the VP.

    Article I Section 3 The Vice President of the United States shall be President of the Senate, but shall have no Vote, unless they be equally divided.

    Palin doesn’t just get minor facts wrong or mix things up, her entire statements are commonly no where near the topic in question. In fact she practically endorsed the terrorist group Hamas in one of her ramblings.

  308. 315 Angela in Washington
    October 3, 2008 at 18:47


    I don’t agree with her views but she is obviously an intelligent women. She does not always come across that way but she has to have some intellect to get where she is. The same goes for W. There are times when I think he has no brain but I think some of it is actually a ploy. In fact, I personally beleive Palin performed badly in those interviews on purpose. I heard her on Hugh Hewitts show and she sounded exactly like she did last night. I just realized I am an extreme liberal and her style, as you said does not appeal to people like me. However, her style, including the misstatements, appeals to many Americans. I obviously still hope she, along with McCain, will not be in the WH on January 20.

  309. 316 Charles
    October 3, 2008 at 19:07

    It’s funny, the people that are arguing for Palin thinks she represents change.
    Fact: Political Parties are groups of people that have similar thoughts, views, beliefs, and goals.
    Fact: Republicans have been in power for the majority of US history.
    Fact: Many people voted for Bush mostly for his faith, moral values, and stances such as pro-life and pro-guns over real issues such as the deficit, health care, social security, and the economy.

    Palin is a Republican, her views and goals are basically the same as our current unpopular President. If you want a big change you should vote Democrat or for a smaller party such as the Constitution Party.

    Palin has the same moral stances as the current President only more extreme. She also has demonstrated the same ethics and attitude as our current President.

    Given everything you know about her and all the things you apparently haven’t noticed that I pointed out, how can you possibly say with a straight face that Palin is Change?

    She couldn’t even run a very, very, small town without leaving it with extreme debt and several legal issues. Does this sound like change to you? To me it sounds like the same irresponsibility we already have.

  310. 317 Bryan
    October 3, 2008 at 19:26

    Angela in Washington October 3, 2008 at 6:47 pm,

    It’s fine to be a liberal. I’m sure you will not become a humourless social engineer as happens to so many of them. Being PeeCee has its dangers if you start to regard those outside the cocoon of PeeCeeness as being somehow unworthy.

  311. 318 Venessa
    October 3, 2008 at 19:32

    Well, I think Palin did a good job given her recent fumbles and I think I was right not to underestimate her. She was a quick study and although she didn’t really discuss the topics she still came out looking good. Both candidates did well although I feel like Biden actually did give answers to some of the questions rather than diverting to some coached checklist of points to make.

    Angela ~ I’m in agreement with you. I see her “apple pie” style to be condescending and used conveniently when she can’t address the real issue. To me it seems a bit disingenuous rather than straightforward. She obviously has intelligence; unfortunately I think she also has her own personal agenda that does not align with what is best for the American people.

  312. 319 Angela in Washington
    October 3, 2008 at 19:43


    I don’t look at non-PC indiviudals, as unworthly. I just perfer someone who will represent all of America. Granted many people don’t beleive that Obama or Biden represents them but I see them as trying to bring many individuals together. I am not referring to party lines but even after the election. Most liberals respect the views of all people, not just liberals. Most conservatives just like to discuss the differences that drives us further apart. That is the one thing I respect about Obama, he seems to care or at least want to help and hear many peoples opinions, even if he does not agree. McCain is not as graceful. I have heard many stories about McCain that makes me think twice about his leadership, but he is a respectable man. I just wish he would have picked someone else. This country does not need someone else that people will laugh at for a leader. We need reassert ourselves and one needs to be someone eloquent to do that. I disagree with you and my views about Palin are not positive. However, I respectfully disagree.

  313. 320 Roberto
    October 3, 2008 at 20:23

    Fact: Republicans have been in power for the majority of US history.

    ——- A bare spare majority.

    Billy Slick was elected twice on a plurality of popular votes. If Obama is elected to 2 consecutive terms, it means the dems and reps will have evened up their numbers as the reps currently hold a slight lead.

    Obviously the American people have swung both ways, and prefer a balance over one or the other generally voted for a balance in Congress between the houses and the executive branch.

    Like I pointed out, if you look at the overlapping votes of McCain and Obama, I’d speculate there’s an 80-90% overlap of their records. It won’t matter who’s elected this year. The economy will dictate the policy, not the president. Ship of state has already run aground.

    2012 will be the key election for planning the future. 2008 is mop up the mess and basic maintainance required to shove the ship off the middle eastern sandbars in good shape for a new direction..

  314. 321 Venessa
    October 3, 2008 at 20:51

    Roberto ~

    “2012 will be the key election for planning the future. 2008 is mop up the mess and basic maintainance required to shove the ship off the middle eastern sandbars in good shape for a new direction..”

    Well said, but the question still remains: Who do you actually want to attempt to mop up the mess? If it’s done wrong it can get worse….

  315. 322 Bryan
    October 3, 2008 at 21:21


    Most liberals respect the views of all people, not just liberals. Most conservatives just like to discuss the differences that drives us further apart.

    Gotta stop you right there. It’s a fundamental misconception. There is also a hint of wishful thinking in it. My experience is quite different. I find that many people who style themselves as “liberal” (I’m not including you here) are quite intolerant of differing views.

    I’ve seen plenty of it on this “liberal” blog, some of it quite venomous.

  316. 323 Jens
    October 3, 2008 at 21:50

    @ Bryan,

    traditional mom and apple pie cuts it for running a small village. i seriously doubt any forgein leader would even contemplate taking her seriously.

    the scary thing is that maccain is not the healthiest of people, i mean he had a stage 3 melanoma removed and the survival time for such a cancer is not the rosiest. just think of her running this country and i am get very scared. “oh Putin bless his heart…….” is that the way you want the president of the most powerful nation sound like.

  317. October 3, 2008 at 22:20

    lol All,

    Don’t know if anybody has seen it, but I just got a copy of Sarah’s flow chart from last night’s debate. Sarah’s Answer Flowchart. IT is useful and can be used when stuck in a debate right here on WHYS.

  318. 325 Venessa
    October 3, 2008 at 22:56

    Dwight ~ You betcha, that was good!

  319. 326 Jonathan
    October 4, 2008 at 03:15


    Exactly what “laws of physics” prevent oil drillers from producing oil and thus solving our “energy problem” (oil shortage) for the years that will elapse before our solar flying cars are invented? I’d say the laws of physics thus far are working in favor of oil production and consumption, unfortunately, since the alternatives haven’t yet proven practical.


    Palin raised taxes on oil companies in Alaska; she is not their favorite person. She rode into office on a wave of populist, tax-the -oil-comapnies “reform” mania, which to my mind is at least as much qualified as patriotism to be considered “the last refuge of a scoundrel.” I’m not a member of her fan club, but she has run on a platform of (iof you will) soaking oil companies, and she did it. There’s enough real reasons to loathe her without inventing any.

  320. 327 Bryan
    October 4, 2008 at 06:30

    Jens October 3, 2008 at 9:50 pm,

    Yes, I can see you don’t like her. It’s strange, all other nations on earth (except Israel) are free to have their own cultural qualities and peculiarities and the PC left fawns over them and regards them as exotic and oh-so-interesting. But American hockey moms get spat upon and Israelis are fair game for anyone who wants to trash them.

    I don’t see why her down to earth qualities disqualify her from leadership. I think it would be good to see people being real on the world stage rather than trying to communicate from within a PC cocoon. Where is this careful diplomacy getting us with Iran, for example? They laugh at it and continue with their demonic preparations to develop the weapons to kill more and more people who don’t look or think like them – Israelis first, Americans second and anyone else they choose after that.

    Strangely enough, I saw Condoleeza Rice almost get angry at Ahmedinejad the other day concerning his vile attitude to Israel and obsession to destroy the country. I believe it was at a meeting of the Security Council. She was tapping her pen on the table to emphasize her words. I wonder what the body language experts would make of that.

  321. 328 Jonathan
    October 4, 2008 at 07:31



    This blog is “liberal” according to, um, whom? Or do you just make this stuff up so you can condemn it?


  322. 329 Charles
    October 4, 2008 at 08:06

    @Bryan, no one has said being down to earth or a hockey mom disqualifies you for leadership, however they aren’t qualifications either.

    A leader needs to be able to understand what is going on, Sarah Palin clearly does not.

    A leader needs to inspire confidence in their abilities to the people they are leading, Sarah Palin does not.

    A leader should be a good example, Sarah Palin is not.

    A leader should not abuse their subordinates or use their power for personal gain, Sarah Palin has been repeatedly accused of doing both.

    A professional regardless of their field should at least know and understand some basic facts for the job they are applying too, Sarah Palin has demonstrated repeatedly including in this debate that she doesn’t know anything beyond what she has been coached and she doesn’t understand anything that is going on in the US as a whole or the world.

    If you were someone in HR and you had to hire someone to run a new division who would you hire? The applicant that is cute and personable that doesn’t answer any of your questions and clearly doesn’t have the basic knowledge of the job or the applicant that knows and clearly explains not only the basics but more complex issues?

    That is what you are doing when you vote. You are hiring someone for a very important, influential, and powerful job position. If this were the private sector and not the government there would be no argument, the woman simply is not qualified for the position. However since you are obviously a Republican you will vote for McCain/Palin no matter what common sense tells you. If she where a Democrat running for VP with Obama, you would be talking about how dumb she is. You know what the liberals and independents would agree with you.

  323. 330 Bryan
    October 4, 2008 at 10:06

    Charles October 4, 2008 at 8:06 am,

    I’m not American, so I can’t vote. I’m just amazed at the venom directed at Sarah Palin, much of it on this blog. I have never found an answer to the simple question of why “liberals” get so sneering and sarcastic and vitriolic during these political debates. She’d barely accepted the nomination and people were already bashing her. Believe me, if she were a Democrat she would have had a much easier ride till now. I certainly would not have been vindictively putting the knife in regarding her pregnant daughter, for example. “Liberals” show that they are anything but liberal when it comes to the crunch.

    A leader should not abuse their subordinates or use their power for personal gain, Sarah Palin has been repeatedly accused [my emphasis] of doing both.

    You are so keen to make an impressive list you have to include mere accusations? How about fact or proof?

    Sarah Palin has demonstrated repeatedly including in this debate that she doesn’t know anything beyond what she has been coached and she doesn’t understand anything that is going on in the US as a whole or the world.

    She doesn’t, not even in her own field of expertise? That’s a trifle judgemental, wouldn’t you say? Well, if that really is the case, at least she’ll be coming fresh to the job, not weighed down by layer after layer of PC, in Biden’s case and a history of rubbing shoulders with the enemies of America, in the case of Obama.

    Now I’m going to disappear from this blog for a little while. And if anyone says anything nasty about me in my absence…..

  324. 331 Shakhoor Rehman
    October 4, 2008 at 11:06

    Let them debate and the discerning eye will see their limitations or otherwise. I do not believe these debates determine the result of an election. Memory past and present determine that.

  325. 332 Pangolin-California
    October 4, 2008 at 12:45

    @ The Physics of US oil consumption. A short primer. (or why Sara Palin is full of it)

    A)The quantity of oil in the US is limited and the oil that it is cheap or easy to get has already either in production or is depleted and declining. This includes ALL of the major oil fields; what is left is the dregs.

    B) US oil consumption in 2006 was supplied by 60 imported liquid fuels. US oil production peaked in 1970 and we are now producing roughly half of that amount with regular declines in production showing a clear trend. Since 1970 oil consumption has doubled with the trend generally climbing.

    3) To assume that the US could be independent in petroleum we would have to find, drill and produce better than double the amount of oil we currently do since our existing fields are declining. This oil would have to cost us no more in energy or oil to produce than current supplies.

    4) Oil fields with these quantities of oil are not known to exist in North America much less the US. You can’t drill what isn’t there. Oil sands and shale don’t count due to complicated reasons involving production inputs exceeding outputs.

    E) Conservation efforts have been largely futile in recent years although the economic downturn looks promising.

    Don’t believe me. Check out the US Energy Information Administration website for wildly optimistic projections or The Oil Drum website for doomer projections. The doomers have noted the credit crunch has slowed down oil projects as well as everything else.

  326. 333 Matthew
    October 4, 2008 at 12:49


    A man of simple, basic and forthright views who displays an honesty and deserves to be further heard and allowed to resonate in a wider arena beyond these confines. He has ventured into the real world of life and witnessed it firsthand, not through vicarious means like so many of us do, and think we are automatically entitled to make comment upon any issue or subject from the luxury of our armchair lives.

    I noticed that hardly anybody with the exception of Roberto wanted to contend with the clarity and conciseness of his comments.

    For Roberto – I’m sure you’re aware of this, but I don’t think many beyond you are, in reference to farmers/ranchers, and those of the working man being given the privilege to hold the reins of power in the future in America.
    I say this – The Chief Head of Gestapo and SS in Nazi Germany and one time RELIGIOUSLY DEVOUT CATHOLIC -Heinrich Himmler, a man who studied agronomy and a onetime chicken farmer. And from what he learnt in his studies he applied this method to the herding and rounding up of Jews better known as “The Final Solution.” This was the attempted and systematic extermination of the Jewish populace and wiping out of all Jewish identity, Roma gypsies, Orthodox Serbs, the mentally retarded and those considered to be practising aberrant sexual behaviour, (basically all those that didn’t fit with the proposed and desired Aryan model) from the entire face and continent of Europe during 1941-1945. An unimaginable genocide that has no parallel of its type and manner.
    You may consider this an extreme example to entertain, but by establishing and pursuing one rigid political and philosophical ideology and method, one steadfast point of view entirely by itself, then quickly can follow the unfettered and unchallenged forces of suppression, confrontation, aggression, ignorance, follow the herd mentality and before you know where you are events are rapidly spiralling out of control taking over in a decisive and destructive fashion.

    Some people will always desire this no matter their background upbringing and status in life. So I don’t think you can make sweeping assertions that the country or any country for that matter would be better off in the hands of the working man. Just because one achieves academic excellence doesn’t necessarily exclude them from having an understanding or empathy with their fellow man. Empathy is a rare quality in most individuals. Indeed it can and may lead to them having a greater insight into the daily struggles and difficulties most have to undergo and contend with in their lives. There are no absolutes in this world or in life in general.

  327. 334 Jonathan
    October 4, 2008 at 14:41


    Hey, no fair shifting ground! You said laws of physics prevent drilling from solving oil shortage. Now you talk about drilling only IN THE U.S. Totally different conversation. Of course US oil is harder to get; that’s why we import it. World reserves last I heard are around a trillion barrels, guesstimate of course. That’s enough to keep going ’til the flying cars come along.

    “Energy independence” is just a mantra for pres. candidates. It would be both pointless and impossible, or rather prohibitively expensive, a solution in search of a problem. Who needs it? We’re not “kiwi independent;” we import the furry fruits. Countries with oil are happy to sell it. Heck, we’re not exactly friendly with Venezuela, but the fuel flows. That’s just boob bait for the bubbas. “Clean coal” is useful chiefly to get Obama votes in key states, otherwise conversion consumes too much energy that carbon output is actually worse than burning the coal, though easier to sequester. But there’s oodles of oil. It’s accounting and politics, not physics, that prevents it from being “proven.”

  328. October 4, 2008 at 18:25

    It’s that reference to the “pitbull” that might make one nervous. She held her own in the debate but Biden sounded more than vice-presidential. Not long to wait for the results now.

  329. 336 Charles
    October 4, 2008 at 18:34

    Yes, I said accusations. Whenever a police officer or other public official is accused of a wrong doing their career is effectively put on hold pending an investigation. You don’t promote someone or endorse someone that is in the midst of scandal. The accusations were there before she was selected to run for VP. If she was accused after being selected, many would consider it political maneuvering or a smear campaign. The fact is she was already under charges and being investigated when she was selected.

    So here is someone that is being investigated for abuse of power, and you essentially offer her a promotion before all the facts are known. So what happens now if McCain wins the election and a few months later she is found guilty? How would it look to the rest of the world if our VP faces civil or criminal charges, not to mention possible though highly unlikely jail time? Then how would it look if McCain decided to pardon her?

    Once again Troopergate is not a new scandal and her firing of a librarian over book banning enraged the town where she was Mayor even though no formal charges were filed. McCain knew that or should have known that and still he selected her.

    If you think what I am saying is only because she is a Republican and a woman than you should know that Palin refused to endorse Alaska Senator Ted Stevens because he was accused of accepting gifts even though Palin had endorsed him in the past. Senator Stevens has since had all charges against him dropped, but it would have been political suicide for her to endorse him or select him for a position while he was in the midst of a scandal. However this is exactly what John McCain has done, any other politician would have kept their distance until she was cleared or charged.

  330. 337 Charles
    October 4, 2008 at 19:43

    As to professional expertise you need to have knowledge in the field to which you are applying. If you are a truck driver and you apply for a computer position you better have a reasonable amount of computer knowledge or you won’t get the job because you are not qualified. It is irrelevant that you have knowledge in your field because you are trying to work in a different field.

    If she were applying for a job as a fisherman or sports journalist than yes she is qualified. But she is running for the number 2 spot of the most important job in the country. What do you expect the leader of your country to know? World events? Foreign policy? How the government the person will be serving in works? Controversial laws or just at least knowledge of laws that have or are about to be passed? How the economy works? What groups your country considers to be enemies and where they are located?

    She knows none of those things and I challenge you to prove that she does. Palin could not even tell the American people what publication she reads to get the news. Call me crazy and and not politically correct, but where I come from we call people that can’t answer simple questions stupid not leaders.

  331. 338 Bryan
    October 4, 2008 at 20:19

    In an ideal world, what you say holds. But politics is a dirty business. Besides, politicians habitually refuse to resign when they face charges while in office so I guess they can be appointed under the same conditions. Also, these are not life-threatening allegations against her, but petty stuff. She hasn’t defrauded anyone or killed anyone.

    I like her. I think she is frank and has the courage of her convictions. And she is wonderfully un-PC. Yes, Biden comes across as more vice-presidential. He has a lot of presence. But let’s not continually be fooled by appearances.

  332. 339 Bryan
    October 4, 2008 at 20:34

    Don’t always assume the worst. Perhaps she didn’t want to answer the question on the newspapers because she was wondering what her (numerous) enemies would hit her with, depending on her reply. Yes, I think she knows who the enemies of the US are and where they are, even if people are irritated by her pronunciation of “Iraq.” Wasn’t she the one in the debate who spoke about the difficulties of the location of Afghanistan compared to Iraq?

  333. 340 selena in Canada
    October 4, 2008 at 20:35


    What qualifications do you think George Bush has to be President? Is it just because Sarah Palin is a woman that you think she is unqualified?

    There are many people in jobs for which they are not trained.

    Just without thinking off the top of my head, I can think of two people I know in positions of authority over financial matters who learned on the job. (Maybe that is the reason for the mess lol).

    One, is a person who got a large settlement in an international court case. Without even a High School education the person was sought out by a global bank and ended up as a financial adviser.

    The other person has an arts degree but got a job as a financial adviser. In this case the mother was the best friend of the CEO of the bank.

    How many of those types do you think are out there?

    Last summer I was at a scientific retreat with physics students. One of them was ready to graduate and already had a job lined up with Lehman Brothers. I can’t say where that went!!! Poor Guy!!!

  334. 341 Charles
    October 4, 2008 at 20:50

    I agree, politics is a dirty business and not one politician is clean. You are right, most politicians do not step down until they are forced to. However as I said before, you don’t give someone favorable action while they are facing charges. Whenever a politician is facing charges all other politicians avoid them until after the issues are resolved. It would have been fine for McCain to select her had the scandal been favorably resolved rather than as it is with the investigation being well under way.

    Abuse of Power may not be murder, but it is not moral or ethical. Also it is not change which so many people claim she brings. Abuse of Power is what got us into the Iraq war in the first place. I’m not saying that Saddam was not a bad man and he didn’t need to be removed, because he did need to be removed. The Iraqi people will be better off in the long run as long as things are handled correctly. World War II occurred because things were not handled correctly and suffering people were desperate for someone to blame their troubles on, a leader such as Hitler would never have come to power in a stable country. Remember those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

    Personally I couldn’t care less about political correctness, I think it is a sham.

  335. 342 Charles
    October 4, 2008 at 21:23

    First while I do not believe George Bush is a good President, he still knew what was going on in the world, and the issues concerning this country.

    When interviewed he did at least give intelligent answers. True he didn’t answer every question and he twisted facts, every politician does the same. Have you even watched any of the Sarah Palin interviews or any of the debates she was in to become Alaska Governor? She almost never directly answers a question. When she does answer a question she either rambles, or twist it to talk about whatever she wants. I mean seriously how is the $700 billion bailout related to health care reform? How hard is it to say where you get your news from?

    You think I’m sexist because I don’t think she is qualified to lead this nation? Get real. Even though it is none of your business, I’ll tell you anyway. I would rather see Hilary Clinton become President than anybody currently running because I do believe she was better qualified than all 4 of the current candidates.

    To your assertion that many people there get jobs they aren’t qualified for, has it ever occurred to you that formal education is not the only indication of skill or knowledge. In the computer industry for example there are many people without degrees or certifications that are very knowledgeable. Some places don’t mind training someone on the job, as long as the employer feels the person could do the job. Most US companies do not like to do on the job training because of the cost to train people and the risk of loosing their investment after they train you because you found a better paying job somewhere else now that you are qualified.

    Her qualifications would not even be an issue if her running mate were younger, than I agree, she would have time to learn the job. Dan Quayle was not qualified to be President either, but it wasn’t an issue because the first Bush was not so old nor had health issues that brought into question Quayles experience.

    I can name dozens of women in each party that are better qualified and more prepared than Sarah Palin. Condalisa Rice, Claire McCaskill, Jean Carnahan, and Hillary Clintom to name a few.

  336. 343 selena in Canada
    October 4, 2008 at 21:50


    Dan Quayle was not qualified to be President either, but it wasn’t an issue because the first Bush was not so old nor had health issues that brought into question Quayles experience.

    Age has no bearing on when a person will die. How old was John Kennedy?

  337. 344 Charles
    October 4, 2008 at 22:16


    Age does have a bearing, the older you get and the worse your health the more your death comes to mind. Young people never think they will die, and most people around them don’t consider the possibility.

    Also, while assassinations, accidents, and illnesses are always possible, old age and health problems increase the likelihood that you will die. It isn’t that people think McCain will die, it is that he has a bigger chance of dying so people are more concerned about it. After all McCain is 73 the odds he will die before Obama barring assassination or accidents is really high.

    Now lets keep in mind as we age death is not the only concern, there are also several diseases that tend to be age related that could remove him from office as well. How many people are in nursing homes at his age because of diseases like Alzheimer’s?

  338. 345 Charles
    October 4, 2008 at 22:45

    You know, I haven’t seen any of your arguments in favor of Palin go beyond she is a woman and you like her. I realize you are Canadian and can not vote, but it would still be interesting to hear objective, impersonal statements that reflect why she should be in the White House. The only arguments I have seen in favor of her revolve around 3 central points 1. Woman 2. Republican 3. I like her

    None of those things are objective or impersonal. I know several people that really like her that think she does not seem as ready as the opposition. That doesn’t mean they won’t vote for her and McCain anyway, it just means they are able to look at things objectively.

  339. 346 selena in Canada
    October 4, 2008 at 23:07


    I don’t have any arguments in favor, or not in favor, of Palin. Her politics are so far removed from mine as not to be on the same planet.

    What troubles me is people saying that she is not qualified when being qualified is subjective. All the arguments used to put her down flies in the face of reason, when one considers the qualifications of those who have been President and Vice President.

    Is anyone being objective when they say she might be OK for Vice but not President and McCain might die so she would have to be President? Come on… age has no bearing on when someone might die.

  340. 347 Charles
    October 5, 2008 at 00:59

    Regardless of facts and examples that I have and could present as evidence that she is not qualified for the position, you have already decided that she is so further discourse is pointless.

    Her interviews and the debate underscore the points I have made. If you think her interviews were intelligent and she knows what she is doing based on her responses, than there is nothing anyone can say or do to change your mind short of her becoming President and doing a worse job than W. If you think the $700 billion bailout was about jobs and health care, than by your standards she is qualified. In my opinion since the bailout is in fact about the government uses tax payer money to keep businesses that were financially irresponsible from going out of business, her answer was no where close and it shows a lack of knowledge.

    When asked how the terrorist group Hamas should be handled since they just won a Democratic election, Palin started talking about how we should support Democracy. It was clear she didn’t understand the situation.

    When asked about Supreme Court cases she could only name Roe vs Wade which is about abortion. Most of Americans and even people of other countries can think of other cases.

    When asked what she reads to get her news. She answers “all of them.” When asked to clarify she said “everything that has come across my desk these many years.” Come on this was not even a tough or political question. Ask any child a similar question and you will get a simple answer. If she can’t answer something so simple what is going to happen when things are much more complex?

    Qualified is not subjective. Every job has basic requirements in order for you to be considered qualified. Write down what is expected of a leader of a nation. Then write down the basic skills and knowledge required to perform those task. Then ask yourself which of those basic requirements based on her interviews and debates does Sarah Palin fulfill. Any rational person would find she meets very few of those requirements.

  341. 348 selena in Canada
    October 5, 2008 at 01:16


    When asked how the terrorist group Hamas should be handled since they just won a Democratic election, Palin started talking about how we should support Democracy. It was clear she didn’t understand the situation.

    Well that seems like a very intelligent statement, to me. Can one pick and choose what democracy one will support?

    As for the 700 million dollar bailout, I can imagine that Sarah has about as much of a handle on that as anyone involved in the process. No one has a clear idea of what happened and what will happen.

    She trained as journalist. Do you really think that she doesn’t know her newspapers?

  342. 349 Charles
    October 5, 2008 at 01:19

    So based on your argument if John McCain was 80, 90, or even 100 years old it shouldn’t matter? On the CDC’s own website it states the average American life expectancy is 77.8 years. How many people over 70 do you know? 80? 90? Have you ever even met someone over 100? Maybe you don’t know that many because most people die before they get that old. But by your logic that can’t be right because age has nothing to do with how long you might live.

  343. 350 selena in Canada
    October 5, 2008 at 01:30


    I actually didn’t say that. And I actually know people in all age groups.

    But that is not the point I was making and I apologize for not being more clear. What I am saying is if John McCain wins he will live out his term because people live when they have a purpose. You don’t think he will die after he achieves his liftime goal, do you? Unless his goal was the journey to the Presidency and I somehow doubt that. Power is usually the goal.

    If John McCain loses, his chances may not be so great.

  344. 351 Charles
    October 5, 2008 at 01:56

    There is difference between supporting Democracy and supporting government. Often governments will withdraw embassies and impose trade sanctions if they do not like the people in power, not endorse their government.

    I didn’t say anything about what happened or what will happen with the bailout. When someone says what is, it is the same as saying define. She was not asked what caused the situation or how to fix it, she was asked to explain the purpose of the bill. I didn’t hear anything in what she said that explained what the bill was. This is a copy of the interview transcript.
    COURIC: Why isn’t it better, Governor Palin, to spend $700 billion helping middle class families who are struggling with health care, housing, gas and groceries — allow them to spend more and put more money into the economy instead of helping these big financial institutions that played a role in creating this mess?

    PALIN: That’s why I say I, like every American I’m speaking with, we’re ill about this position that we have been put in where it is the taxpayers looking to bail out. But, ultimately, what the bailout does is help those who are concerned about the health care reform that is needed to help shore up our economy, umm … helping the … uh, it’s got to be all about job creation, too, shoring up our economy and putting it back on the right track. So health care reform and reducing taxes and reining in spending has got to accompany tax reductions and tax relief for Americans. And trade, we’ve got to see trade as opportunity, not as a competitive, scary thing. But one in five jobs being created in the trade sector today, we’ve got to look at that as more opportunity. All those things under the umbrella of job creation. This bailout is a part of that.

    Read it, it is clear she didn’t have a clue what she is talking about. What does health care reform have to do with the economy? It has absolutely nothing to do with the bailout. What does it have to do with reducing taxes? The government already has a huge debt, how is adding almost a trillion dollars to that dept going to reduce taxes? And how does trade come into risky loan practices? And then the job market. What she did was state a bunch of catch phrases about issues and didn’t answer anything.

    These are quotes taken from the interview Katie Couric had with Palin.
    “Does it worry you that you don’t know too much about foreign affairs?” asked Couric. “You haven’t traveled much and you haven’t met any foreign leaders.”

    Palin brushed the criticism aside: “Katie, I was not chosen by John McCain because I know a lot about foreign affairs. In fact I know next to nothing. Ask me to name the capital of Moldavia and I’m stumped. That’s not my role, Katie. I can google that stuff. I’m a figurehead and a spearhead. I speak the same language as small town moms and dads all across this nation. I don’t pretend to know the answers. I think of it this way: I might not be able to connect the dots, but I can connect with people.”

    A noticeably puzzled Couric asked: “Does the McCain team pretty much control what you say?”

    Palin answered candidly: “The liberal media, and that includes you Katie, acts like it’s a big secret that I don’t know foreign affairs. That’s so stupid. I’m open about not knowing this stuff. That’s why I need John McCain’s help. He supplies me with index cards on all the major issues.”

    She herself admits she doesn’t know anything, how can anyone say she does?

  345. 352 Charles
    October 5, 2008 at 01:59

    First you say age doesn’t matter and now you say he will live because he has a goal. Are you serious or are you debating just for the sake of debating?

  346. 353 selena in Canada
    October 5, 2008 at 02:55


    I am very poor at explaining what I am saying, it seems.

    What I am trying to say is Sarah is no different than all the others, except that she is refreshingly honest, if what you write is true.

    How many of the politicians do you think know much about foreign countries and policy? They simply parrot what so-called experts tell them to say.

    Don’t you know they are all coached? if you don’t know that then what can I say?

    As for the age thingy, age does not matter. How old is the Pope?

  347. 354 Charles
    October 5, 2008 at 03:23

    Of course they are all coached, but not to the same extreme. As to knowing about foreign countries and policies, 2 of the 4 know both and 3 out of 4 know enough to tell you something more than a few catch phrases. I’m not even a politician and I know more about foreign countries and policy than she does.

    As to Palin being honest, that is a matter of opinion. Personally I think she is just as dishonest as the other 3, and I could list examples, but as I said before you are determined to believe what you want.

    The only thing that sets Palin apart from the others is that she is trying to get buy solely on the argument that she could be your next door neighbor. Frankly, I wouldn’t want any of my neighbors to be President either.

    The age point is moot. You keep saying age doesn’t matter but it is to apparently everyone but you, directly related to how likely you are to die soon without outside intervention. What does the Pope have to do with it? Are you still stressing that someone will live because they have a purpose? Many people die that feel they have a purpose. For McCain to die shortly after he becomes president is statistically probable and would be ironic, nothing more. People have no control of when they die, if they did no one would ever die.

  348. 355 Charles
    October 5, 2008 at 03:51

    I forgot to reply to your remark:
    She trained as journalist. Do you really think that she doesn’t know her newspapers?

    There are many types of journalist. Palin studied as a Sports Journalist. This does not mean she is on equal footing with a News Journalist. Many people today don’t read newspapers. By the time a paper is printed you probably already heard about it on the radio or saw it on TV or the Internet. It isn’t a question of whether she knows any newspapers. It was a simple innocent question, and only required a very simple answer. Even if she said “Katie, I don’t read the paper, I watch CNN” it would have been a simple honest answer. Instead she avoided answering the question. To my mind if I can’t get a simple honest answer to a simple question, how will I get answers to more complicated questions?

    This reply also goes to Bryan.

  349. 356 Abi
    October 5, 2008 at 09:20

    To say that the debate ‘s importance was to identify Mr McCain being too old and may die in the office and Mrs Palin will take the USA to the Stone Age is nothing but an insult to every intelligent person who participate in this debate and took the time to watch the debate on TV. There is no doubt of my mind that a large section of the media as well as their friends on the left were expecting Mrs Palin to fall so they can bring their knifes out . Sadly for them and to their disappointment Mrs Palin ‘s performance was brilliant, she was articulate and the USA should be proud to have a person of such a calibre. I wish I was an American citizen, so I can vote for them . Let me say Go Sarah Go Mac … God bless you both.

  350. 358 Marge
    October 5, 2008 at 12:57

    What a puzzle. Why is it that so many people have so much hatred for successful , intelligent and atractive women? Funny how Biden gets no criticism. I guess I can recognize predjudice when I see it. Oh, yes, and how dare she have children too.

    How tiresome of you all to say Obama is black. He is as much “white” with a white mother and brought up by white grandparents, who had no racial predjudice.

  351. 359 Charles
    October 5, 2008 at 17:49

    @Abi and Bryan
    Did you even read the entire discussion or just the parts you wanted to? The discussion since you you either did not read it or you did not comprehend it was about why Sarah Palin is not qualified to be VP. To say the fact that McCain who is 73 is not important is unrealistic. There is a very real, very probable possibility that he will die in office of natural causes, the chances of which significantly increase the longer he is in office. That means that the person that is Vice President will become President. Based on her befuddled and confusing interviews, and the fact that she rarely answers questions in debates (not just this one, but the ones in Alaska as well), how can you honestly say she knows what she is doing?

    This debate was to show how prepared the VP candidates are to replace the front runners. Bidens knowledge, capability, and experience were never in question. His ability to keep his responses short, to the point, and without major factual blunders was. He was expected to talk non-stop, be condescending, and get major facts wrong.

    Palin was expected to babble incoherently, say folksy things, and say lots of catch phrases. The only thing she succeeded in was not babbling like she did in every prior interview.

    You know I bet if I waited a few years for you to forget who said what, and posted gender neutral transcripts of the interviews and debates as Candidate 1 and Candidate 2, you would say she didn’t know what she is doing too.

    Abi, as you said you are not an American and you will not have to live 4 to 8 years living under a poor choice and deal with problems caused by that choice many years later. A part of me wishes that she would become President just so my points become undeniable. The idea is to vote for the person you think will do the best job regardless of how you feel about them as a person. But as you can see, people voted for who they liked the most in the past 2 elections and look at what we got.

  352. 360 Charles
    October 5, 2008 at 17:51


    It’s amazing how anytime someone has something negative to say about anyone that is not a white male everyone plays the race or sex card. If it was possible to compare candidates without knowledge of race, gender, or political party like reading a resume, I think we would start getting better quality elected officials.

    Apparently you haven’t read everything either. How can you say that people dislike Palin just because she is a woman ? What about all of the men and women that supported Hillary Clinton? I live in a state that has 2 female Senators, how can you say people hate her just because she is a woman. I have even named a few woman above that are way more qualified to run this country than Palin. If it were 4 women running, I still would say Palin is not qualified. If that were Hillary Clinton in this VP debate against Sarah Palin the same would hold true. There would be very little anyone could say negative about Hillary in a debate. She is knowledgeable, experienced, and well spoken, Sarah Palin’s only ability in a debate is to charm people.

  353. 361 Jens
    October 5, 2008 at 18:48


    the issue is not that she is a hockey mum etc. the issue is that she is not qualified and fundamentaly believes that the world will come to an end as we know it, that christ will appear in her live time, that the old testament is true and that the world is only 6000 years old. now mix in her completly confused view of what foregien policy is, and how the economy works. do you seriously think that winking at putin will soften his stance. she might have been a competent mayor, although her track record there points to lying and cheating, with a good dose abuse of power.

    i think she is not qualified, not because her kids play hockey, a game I have played myself and absolutly adore, not because she took part in some stupid beauty competion, BUT becauise she is simply not even close to be qualified to running this country.

    by the way i consider myself liberal, but do support israels stance in the fight against the fundamental muslims that are not only threatning israel but very much stability in the middle east

  354. 362 Jens
    October 5, 2008 at 18:54


    if Obama would have had a witchdocter blessing him and endowing a prayer of protection against witches in one of his races for office, this election would be over. NOW tell me who has it easier……..search for palin and witchdoctor and you will see what I mean. it is shocking, ‘nough said

    well thah is on top of all the other BS, she has come out with.

  355. 363 Jens
    October 5, 2008 at 19:01


    we must have watched a different debate, palin was NOT brilliant, she performed adequatly. the reason why you project her as brilliant is simply that the republicas lowered the bar for her performance so much that anything short of her drooling over herself was going to be a good performance. i am not sure how you feel, but right now we need leadership and understanding of complex times and events and not Mrs I telling ya anothet folksy little story.

    maccain is way to angry and palin way to iggnorant. not a good combination

  356. 364 Charles
    October 5, 2008 at 19:36

    Jens, thanks. I was getting tired of having factual statements twisted into being sexist. If Palin being a woman or likable is the only reason to vote for her, than people must not have learned their lesson after W.

  357. 365 Roberto
    October 5, 2008 at 20:44

    There would be very little anyone could say negative about Hillary in a debate

    ——– Oh brother, spare me a dime.

    If Mr and Ms Slick didn’t have such high negative ratings with voters, the first African American with a Muslim/middle eastern name wouldn’t have been selected instead.

    As far as “qualifications” go, your above statement would DQ you in my world. Obviously you ain’t paid attention. However, in this world under constitutional requirements, you are allowed to vote, and Ms Palin is allowed to run for veep,

    Some apropo divine justice me thinks.

  358. 366 Bryan
    October 6, 2008 at 00:39

    Jens October 5, 2008 at 6:48 pm,

    Yes, I have noticed that you are not the typical anti-Israel liberal and I really appreciate it

    Re Palin, I’m not sure why everyone is so concerned about her lack of knowledge. No doubt she’ll learn fast if elected. If McCain is elected, I doubt very much that he will keel over and die the next day. He’ll have everything to live for, as Selena pointed out above. Obama worries me because he has extremely dubious associations with some very dicey people and he is too smooth. What is really behind that mask?

    Marge October 5, 2008 at 12:57 pm,

    Thanks for that refreshing comment. It is wonderfully un-PC. Yes, Obama is not black, but mixed-race. I was jumped on here for making that exact observation. Liberals, who are forever trying to prove a point to everyone, want him to be black and elected so they can say, “Look, America is not racist. We’ve got a black president.” Relax, guys. We know America is the least racist country on earth. It’s been proven.

    But people are not trashing Palin because she is a woman. They are trashing her because of the kind of woman she is. Conversely, they simply will not criticize Obama. This thread was a real eye-opener:


    The WHYS guys and girls jumped in, boots and all, against Palin and her pregnant daughter before they even had a good idea of who she was. It was enough at that stage to know that she was Republican and pro-life.

  359. 367 Charles
    October 6, 2008 at 04:33

    I don’t believe I called anyone names or used derogatory nick names to describe anyone, which you have.

    It is funny how you take a partial quote and put a spin on it. You say I haven’t been paying attention, and you act as if Obama being nominated was because no one wanted Clinton. Did you pay attention to the Primaries? The Republican race was in the bag very early and would have been over much sooner had the last hopeful conceded. The Democratic race went for much longer and was much closer, Obama won but not by the landslide you imply.

    You don’t like the Democrat candidates, that much is obvious. But you are entitled to your opinions without insult, something you obviously don’t believe in. We live in a multi-cultural society you assume that because Obama has a name that sounds Middle Eastern that he is not American. With a name like Roberto would it be fair for someone to call you a Mexican Illegal? No of course not.

    As Bryan pointed out the negatives about Palin are about who she is, not what she is. The majority of the negatives I have seen about Obama focus on what he is. You say Obama is a Muslim as the Republicans assert however there is only rumor and no hard fact. I say Palin is extreme in her religious views, and to back that up there is a video of her being blessed by a man known to hunt witches, another video where she states his “bold” blessing helped her win the election, and her many public statements about creationism and the will of God.

  360. 368 Charles
    October 6, 2008 at 06:13

    Bryan, I’ll agree with you Obama is too smooth. As far as experience Obama is nowhere close to McCain or Biden. And yes it is true Obama is not %100 black. However even though some of you feel otherwise I am not concerned with sex or race. I am interested in their views, their knowledge based on interviews and debates, their demeanor, and their experience.

    Nobody has said that McCain will “keel over the next day,” only that there is a good chance he could die in his first term with a much greater chance that he would not finish a second term if it came to that.

    As to who Obama associates with, I agree it bares closer scrutiny. Such scrutiny needs to be based on provable fact not opinion. There are plenty of reasons not to vote for Obama and McCain. Most of the reasons involve what kind of person you think they are based on what you know of them and who you feel will act in the best interest of this country. Personally I don’t think either of them is a great choice. They both have some serious detractors that give pause.

    You worry about the people Obama is around, and rightfully so. But shouldn’t you also be concerned about Palin being under investigation for using her elected position to carry out a personal vendetta? Or how about all the other times she has been accused of abusing her position that she has not been formally charged for? Or how about the fact that the town she served as Mayor for now has some serious debt and legal issues as a direct result of her doing things without following proper procedures? Or what about the fact that while she was Mayor rape victims were charged for the examination kit that is used to capture the rapist?

    Do I know for certain that Palin has abused power? No, but it is enough to cause concern. Is it certain that Obama is a friend of terrorists and shares those views? Once again no, but as with Palin it is enough to make a reasonable person nervous. Another thing to consider is Palin is in fact under investigation for at least some of her accusations and there is documentation to testify to the rest. In the extremely paranoid country that we live in that has many people who are obviously not terrorist listed as terrorist, do you really think it would be the Republican Party making the accusations against Obama rather than the FBI or CIA?

  361. 369 Bryan
    October 6, 2008 at 08:54

    I’m far more concerned with Obama’s negatives because they are much more serious. The allegations against Palin are trivial by comparison and they seem to be a vendetta by political opponents in her home state and beyond. People are trying to make mountains out of molehills here. The rape kit accusation of perceived callousness on her part, for example, was countered by the observation that it was one aspect of a far more complex issue involving insurance.

    Even if it cannot be proven that Obama is anti-American, or at least anti-white America, consider the evidence:

    *Long association with the racist anti-white “Reverend” Wright
    *Association with Bil Ayers
    *A wife who was never proud to be American until he was nominated Democratic candidate.

  362. 370 Roberto
    October 6, 2008 at 09:20

    RE “”You say I haven’t been paying attention, and you act as if Obama being nominated was because no one wanted Clinton.””

    ——- Perhaps a lack of attentiveness mixed in with your personal projections which you attribute to me.

    I never said no one wanted The Slicks. I said they had a very high negative rating which is the reason Obama could come from a weak nontraditional base to gain the nomination. The Slick Family were the power base of the party, yet they couldn’t control the votes in the democratic primary.

    I don’t hide my personal disgust at the Slicks, but unlike you, I’m quite objective in my view of politics in general. If I point out that Gulliani has a high negative rating among rep voters which allowed the oldest man in the history of US elections to win the primary, it doesn’t mean that I don’t like old people or McCain. That would be a silly projection.

    Maybe you don’t like Palin’s qualifications, but most assuredly she has demonstrated more qualifications as candidate than you have as voter. She’s not telling the public that your not qualified to vote if you meet Constitutional requirements like you are doing with her.

  363. 371 Angela in Washington
    October 6, 2008 at 11:40


    I you discuss Rev. Wright and Michelle Obama, as if they are so different than most Americans. The whole issue with Wright is not that he was anti-American but he tried to get his congregation to look at society and the way blacks have been treated. He may have said some unpleasant things but, this may sound awful, it is not different than the way people have discussed blacks for years.

    My parents were raised during segregation and the Jim Crow days. If you had been around during that time you may not have understood what was so great about this country. Even today some blacks are still treated as second class citizens. I have seen this with my own eyes. I have seen and heard horrible things that non-blacks have said about blacks when they thought no one was listening. People in this country like to ignore the racial issues but they are real and Wright was just expressing his views.

    Every man in my family has been in the service, except my brother. A couple of people even died for their country but they were not entirely proud because it is hard to be completely proud when you are always told you can only get so far.

  364. 372 Angela in Washington
    October 6, 2008 at 11:46

    I am not defending either one of the things that Wright or Michelle said but you have to take it all in context. Wright was in the Marines he fought for his country but he wanted this country to be a place that people like him could get equal treatment and would not be treated any differently. We still have a way to go but like Michelle said many people are proud of this country now because they are starting to realize things have changed. I am not one of those people that blames things on soemone else. If I do something wrong it is my fault. I have had many opportunities and I am black, plus I love this country. I just hate that people cannot look at things from a different point of view. I have had relatives that have been lynched and mobbed. My grandfather was riduculed because he wanted to vote. However, with all the history I beleive this country is still the greatest in the world and I realize that we have come a long way.

  365. 373 Charles
    October 6, 2008 at 20:55

    I have not made any personal reference or inference about your character or your intelligence. Nor have I once questioned anyone’s right to vote. You have made such comments about me in your past 2 post. You don’t agree with my views and that is fine. That is what makes this country great and it doesn’t make you less of a person to me just a dissenting view point. However you have a rather childish mentality and seem to think anyone that disagrees with your views and opinions is stupid and below you.

    As to my person I have served in the US Army for 2 enlistments. I have been deployed to a combat zone. I do have an education above high school. I have been to several other countries and several states for extended time periods. I do speak languages other than English. I have held a secret security clearance. I have been involved in complex logistical operations. I have done joint operations with French, German, and British soldiers. I have been part of a multi-national peace force. And I still have friends in other countries which helps me maintain a broader world view than the average American. Despite everything I have done I do not have the arrogance to assume I am qualified to run this country even though it is my constitutional right to try.

  366. 374 Charles
    October 6, 2008 at 21:25

    I agree, you do have some very legitimate concerns. If Obama had to go through the same security clearance procedures as every other non-elected public servant it is very doubtful given his background that he would be given a secret or top secret clearance. However elected officials are not subject to the same scrutiny since they are considered to already have the public trust since the people put them in the position.

    The fact is we don’t have any great choices, none of the candidates are outstanding. I think the problem is the 2 party system we are stuck with. There are a large number of people that only vote Republican and a large number that only vote Democrat with the deciding votes coming from the group in the middle. Since such large numbers of people are dedicated to a certain party it is extremely difficult if not impossible for someone that is not a Democrat or Republican to get elected.

  367. 375 Charles
    October 6, 2008 at 21:49

    You claim to be objective in your political views. However I doubt given your comments many people would agree you are objective. I find it odd for someone to claim objectivity and use insulting nick names and derogatory comments to address Democrats and just names to address Republicans. I have not once used an insulting nick name or a derogatory remark to describe anyone.

    I have not once made any comments regarding anyone’s right to vote or their intelligence to do so. You however have made those comments about me in your last 2 post. Unlike you I don’t have a negative view of you based on your opinions. You have a right to express your opinions without insult just as everyone else does, that is what makes this country great. You do seem to have a childish attitude and the belief that anyone that does not agree with your views is less intelligent and not as valuable a person as you.

    You assert Palin has a constitutional right to run for office. Not one person here has argued that fact. In fact the majority of Americans also have the right to run. Just because you have the right to make the attempt does not mean you have the knowledge, skills, experience, or ability to run a country. You can apply for a job to be CEO for a corporation too, that does not mean you are qualified to do the job. The requirements to run for office are very simple, the requirements needed to perform the duties of office are not.

    Article Two of the Constitution sets the principal qualifications to be eligible for election as President. A Presidential candidate must:
    * be a natural-born citizen of the United States;
    * be at least thirty-five years old;
    * have been a permanent resident in the United States for at least fourteen years.

  368. 376 Bryan
    October 7, 2008 at 08:34

    Angela, I appreciate everything you say. But I see Barack and Michelle as people with huge chips on their shoulders about being black in white America and I see no evidence that they give white America any credit at all for putting its racist past firmly behind it. They themselves appear to be embedded in that past.

    Regarding Obama’s dubious associations, these were not brief, youthful mistakes, which can be easily forgiven, but enduring, long-term relationships. At best Obama is a socialist with strong anti-white sentiments. At worst he is an anti-white racist and an anti-American subversive. Is this really the man you want to lead the greatest country on earth?

  369. 377 Angela in Washington
    October 7, 2008 at 12:49

    Bryan, I could understand if you stated that Michelle may have had those sentiments but not Barack. He was raised by white people- his mother and grandparents. This was a man that was not around that many black indiviudals, in the early part of his life. He has a different perspective than most blacks because he did not see as much racism, as most perople did. Additionally, his mother wanted him to see other parts of the world. Barack does not seem to be one that is holding on to the past. The problem is that his family was never slaves, since his father is from Africa, and he had no understanding of the struggle of many blacks until he went to Chicago.

    People say things that can be construed many different ways. People take what Michelle said to mean she wasn’t patriotic. Most blacks feel bitter because many whites just feel that we should just forget the past and say farewell but it is our history. I went to school with some people whose ancestors were in the Confederate Army and they were very proud and voiced their opinions about the war. White America, as you call it has not given up its racist ways. It takes admitting there is still a problem.

    I am proud of my country and I realize that there are problems. I realize that some of our previous presidents may have had anti-black sentiments. I know for a fact that some of the people in the present administration are racist but they keep it at home.

  370. 378 Bryan
    October 8, 2008 at 01:17

    Well, I dunno what the solution is here Angela. Should be an interesting debate in a coupla hours. I wont be watching it. Will have to catch it tomorrow online.

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