Former US Vice-President, Dick Cheney reopened the debate on torture on Sunday during an interview on ABC news.
Here’s an extract from the transcript of the interview:
CHENEY: I was a big supporter of waterboarding. I was a big supporter of the enhanced interrogation techniques that…
INTERVIEWER: And you opposed the administration’s actions of doing away with waterboarding?
CHENEY: Yes.
Waterboarding is classed as torture according the UN Convention on torture.
But according the results of this poll conducted only a few months ago, some Americans think torture is sometimes justified.
Those polled wanted to use waterboarding or other torture techniques to extract more information from Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab – the would-be underwear bomber.
It’s a story that’s crossed over the Atlantic and is being reported in the African press.
Liz Cheney supports her father’s arguments. In a television interview she said: ‘These “interrogation methods” kept us safe — and that’s all the justification they need.’
Her views are shared by one poster at the bottom of this article in USA Today.
The ticking time bomb example is often used to justify the use of torture for the greater good.
But commentators like Eugene Robinson of the Washington Post have argued that the the reasoning of saving other lives for the greater good is simply wrong.
In a TV debate with Liz Cheney, Robinson argued:
‘Efficacy isn’t the only thing we should be talking about here. We should also be talking about legality. We should be talking about whether what was done was legal. If I rob a bank and get away with it, there’s a lot of efficacy there, but it’s not legal.’
Likewise, this Christian blogger who thinks torture is never justified.
On safety grounds, is torture ever justified? If you knew torture was sanctioned by governments would you feel safer? Or is it always wrong, no matter what the circumstances are?
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BBC World Have Your Say 
Turture is inhumane,brutal uncivilized.unethical as well as illegal under international law. It should not be used under any circumstance.
hi every body,
actually we are moving toward humaliation, not towards humanity.
the reason is that we are wholly diverting our life towards world bussiness .every one is earning for his own life.
It always amazes me that the World can step so far backwards from 21st Century values as to allow people with Cheney’s medieval views any kind of power.
Almost as bad is the torturing of the English language by snide phrases like ‘enhanced interrogation techniques’, and euphemisms like’ water boarding’ for ‘drowning’.
Torture is never justified, and to those people who go on about justifying torturing bombers who know about an explosion which is about to happen, well, tell me when such a case ever occurs.
All that water boarding has done is give terrorists some moral high ground they don’t deserve.
Everything you do wrong in secret returns to hurt you.
Torture is NEVER justified. It is what we stand against, and not what we do.
Shame on Dick Cheney! He has exaggerated the threat of these religious maniacs 1000 times what it really is. The leaders of this “war on terror” live in caves. It’s not like they have an army, they aren’t going to take over. They aren’t the Commies.
RE “” CHENEY: I was a big supporter of waterboarding. “”
————————–
—— This guy is villain straight out of an old Dick Tracy cartoon.
It staggers belief to think of the Christian evangelicals getting Satan’s stooges elected to the highest office in the land.
It may take a century or more to clean up their mess.
It never ceases to amaze me that there are people out there who feel they are so special that protection of their lives justifies the torture of others.
I agree with Cheshire Pete.How do people with Cheney’s views get into positions of power?
I would tell to mr. Cheney:
Torture is- never- justified.
It is primative and used in the middle ages.
Information get by torture, will never be usefull for anyone.
Only as by waterboarding, it says something about the people, who ordered to do it, as Mr. Cheney did.
He is not a hardliner by using this methods of torture.
He is a war crimina.
An evil man with evil policiy in the past.
He was only helpfull to come into- and stay in a war,
Cheney and his waterboarding can go to hell.
.
They destroy lives, lives of so many.
People who wanted to live, instead of dead.
Torture is cruel, now and forever.
Mr.Cheney should read the gospel of Jesus Christ and
then be ashame.
Please define International Law – or even (International (Customary) Law. Please define justice. Please define torture.
It will and ultimately always will be power. Individuals and (definable) state entities (be they “democratic” (now there’s a minefield)) or not – will do, use, abuse, get someone else with lesser moral fibre to do whatever they want based only on the “principle” that they CAN. And no theoretical world laws will have anything to do with it, and those who end up behind bars are those that a deal has already been done with ‘the powers that be’ to get them off the world scene.
So, it is all might is right – nice and untidy as usual. Thanks for optimistic question though.
Regards,
I do not believe in the credo “the end justifies the means”, which I believe is the mentality used to justify torture. Flawed techniques yield flawed results.
Mistreatment of others is always unnecessary and demeaning to all involved…this is the high ground that fully evolved homo sapiens sapiens should occupy.
As an aside, there was a fellow 2000 years ago who suggested we love our enemies…good advice then and good advice today.
Following WW2 in the Tokyo Trials, the US executed Japanese criminals for war crimes which included torture. (one of the main forms of torture used by the Japanese on US prisoners was waterboarding).
60 years later, not only have the victors of WW2 regressed to the point of even debating torture, we have even committed torture and justified it and support (financially and militarily) dictators to do so too against their own populations.
The practice of torture is another step backwards into darkness.
Additionally to the above ~ “The UN Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment” only represents conventional wisdom as we don’t have a fully subscribed to World Court nor a World Police Force, precisely because of sovereignty issues and loss of individual “state” might. Nor do we trust other ‘State Mights’ to get it right on our behalf. America? No chance. Just think on the Middle East. God bless them for WW I & WW II, but everything since…? Well, no ones perfect eh? Go on then… God Bless America with real wisdom for the future.
Again regards,
Yes, we can be safe without torture. I’m fairly certain if I was tortured I would tell you whatever you wanted to hear, true or not; and if we torture, there isn’t much difference between us and the bad guys.
truly appreciate your braveness.
but the reason that-the whole human race carry on “torture” for thousands of years- is simply because its effective.
its sad to say but the truth is communication is a very effective way on solving problems while violence is best.
Torture to others creates Discouragement.Inferiority complex is advanced stage of discouragement.In the case of Dick Cheney it could be described as a technique for
self enhancement when feeling going down hill under adverse condition.Feeling Pleasure in Torturing others could also be sign of mental illness.
its hard to say,
see you have to shoot strangers in a battle or you will die
sometimes its inhuman, not legal, but truly necessary
try asking the relatives of 911 victims/ if US intelligence “tortured” someone before the event which could prevent that happened, will they think torture is not justified?
However, if torture is accepted legally, who can guarantee us that “some departments” wont have the problem of power abuse?
we all know that it’s easy to abuse one’s power
I’m far far more afraid my government taking away my freedoms than I am of any terrorist. We can never allow the loss of democracy, civil rights or right to a fair trial in the name of national security.
ENOUGH! I am sick to death of America being blamed for well… pretty much everything. Let’s take a step back and look at this…. If you think for just a moment that it is okay to brutalize children, make sure that women do not get an education, kids unable to play in the streets, not be able to vote, be forced out of your homes in the middle of the night, be blown up by some idiot witha bomb straped to his chest well then guess where you should live. Tourture is having bamboo shoved under your finger nails. Tourture is having your fingers broken one by one. Tourture is having a bag shoved over your head, a tape made and you decapitated. Granted there are people that take things too far. There always will be, but do not blame an entire country for the fault of a few misplaced souls… Or maybe we should do the same. hmmm. I do have to say that if my husband were stuck somewhere and his life in peril, I got news for all you sitting on your high and mighty throne types….. Would I hunt down the person who has him? Yes. Would I find some one who knows where he is and maybe cause them a whole heck of a lot of pain to get my loved one back safe and sound in one peice? Yes. Now for those of you who condemn me for speaking the truth I suggest you look in your own heart and see what it says…. Before you have sympathy for the one beinging held and bound make sure they do not have a hand in holding and binding one of your loved ones.
So would you be ok if they introduced torture into criminal investigations in the US? E.g. a kidnapping (to start off with)
I think that you are dealing with specifics and I am dealing with generals. In 2000 85 to 90% of the 876,213 missing americans were under 18. Kidnapping makes up about 2% of the violent crimes in the US. If your child was missing what would you do if you “know” someone had info but refused to share? What if 5 min was the difference between life and death for that child? What would you do? What if a family member was murdered and you “knew” who did it? As humans we are made for compassion. We are willing to lend a hand when ever we can. We have an unfathomable capacity to love… If that is threatened what would you you do? Although you raise an interesting point. I realize that we cannot go off half cocked and willy nilly grab people off the streets just because we can. I know that would cause chaos and destruction, but I also know that the protective instinct in humans is beyond infinite.
Sorry I must diagree Jenni! If you study history and I mean checking the facts for yourself, not just believing what happens to be politically correct just now, you will find that the USA is responsible for more crimes against humanity than any other country in the last hundred years. Cheney is the man behind the Bush war against Islam and the lies concerning weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Nevertheless, even he should not be tortured, but he deserves to be put in prison for the rest of his life. How many people have died because of the lies he told? He and Blair ar a danger to us all.
Hmm. Research huh? Crimes against humanity huh?
Holocaust: 63% of the Jewish population from 22 countries killed for a total of 5,962,129. Tiananmen Square: Approx. 7,000 dead 30,000 injured. World trade center: 2,752 civilians killed. Vietnam dead over 116 year period BEFORE the US got there:
Vietnam: 3 to 4 million
Laos and Cambodia: 1.5 to 2 million
Comfort Women: 410,000 women forced to work in military brothels by the Japanese. While I realize what you are trying to say… and you have every right to disagree. I do not think that history shows us as having the most crimes against humanity.
If we followed your logic, then anyone who feels that they have been wronged by someone can have anything done to them in order to correct this wrong. No civilized society can allow that. Laws are there to put a wet blanket on emotions that often dominant the committment of a crime. Also, the government is not an individual, it must the rules that we live by. Also, it was not just a few ‘bad’ individuals who went over what you call ‘the line’, rather torture has been used across the board by this government all over the world. More than 100 individuals have died in the US’s custody and their deaths have been labeled as possible homicide by our own goverment.
I would hope that people would realize I was speaking in specifics and not in generals. Why is it that the US holds and obeys the Geneva Convention and other countries do not? You say “more then 100” individuals have died in US custody. How many in Russia, China, Japan, Thailand, Vietname, Iran, Iraq? We live by the rules because society dictates. I live by the rules beacause that is what my parents taught me. Think singular not general.
let me just comment on that, i don’t think anyone is blaming the american people for that,but when there’s a tendency to blame “america” for the use of torture to draw confession out of so called “terrorists”..would it make it better for you to say,the blame is on the american gonvernment?! and the reason for the blame is because it’s the american gonverment who had spearheaded the whole “war on terror” campaign against “terrorists” ..Come to think of it,look what the whole “war on terror” has started in airports around the world?! endless screenings of utterly innocet individuals, racial profiling, etc etc… A new type of emotional torture and exhaustion!
Of course, my instinct would be the same as yours. An emotional response to do anything to get my loved one back, which would cloud my judgement and may result in my actions being worse than the crime. In that state, we would all negotiate with the terrorists and pay the ransom to return the kidnapped prisoner, or if we caught the terrorist we would do anything to him including torturing/killing his family in the desperate hope that he would tell us anything at all, let alone something helpful.
Emotionally desperate responses shouldn’t dictate our policies. They violate the principles that make us civilised, and they diminish our humanity, while producing unreliable results.
On torture specifically, I remember a BBC documentary about Kurds who were tortured under Saddam. A Kurd was tortured until he gave the names of 2 other “co-conspirators”. 2 innocent Kurds were captured and tortured and so on. If you torture someone long enough and hard enough, they will confess to wiping out the dinosaurs.
The “ask the relatives of the 9/11 victims” argument has become pretty cheap and overused, and the people who use it tend to ignore the fact that plenty of those family members do not agree with torture either. You really do have to be a brave person not to turn into the enemy. There is a difference between shooting someone in the midst of battle and torturing a defenseless prisoner.
I’m sure many of the terrorists would argue that their actions are to save Islamic lives. Torture and terror are two sides of a coin and never justified. Cheney’s justification of a crime puts him on the same moral ground as Bin Laden.
Is no distinction to be made between advocating for the controlled torture of a terrorist planner and the planning for indescriminate killing of non-combatants?
People will say or do anything to make torture stop, making their “confessions” highly suspect at best. Torture-induced confessions aren’t valid.
As for extracting information with torture, it might work for Jack Bauer, but in the real world his behavior wouldn’t be tolerated. We live in a system of laws, not one where the urgency of the situation can override the rules.
Obvious point, but torture would only ever be effective on anyone you know 100% for certain is a terrorist otherwise it is just an exercise in sadism by powerless, unblanced people.
Most people would have no problem with torturing kidnappers or terrorists where people’s lives are at risk. But I would suspect that most who are tortured in the current war on terror probably have absolutely no idea or connection with what their captors are seeking to find out. So what is the point in that? Any information they obtain will be of no value and only serve to waste their resources verifying it. After all to stop the pain you would make up anything your captor would want to hear wouldn’t you?
Another point that deserves to be made in the context of this discussion is that using techniques like waterboarding does so much damage to our reputation that, ultimately, we could end up less safe than before.
I think Cheney watches a lot of Jack Bauer on 24. Maybe he is taking to using Bauer and his actions to frame the debate on American interrogation techniques read torture. Although he uses torture to get info on where the next nerve gas or nuclear bomb will be deployed, torture is deemed illegal whatever the circumstances. This is the reality.
NEVER!
As Ibraham in the UK says torture is a step back into the medieval darkness and it is too bad no one ever told the Muslim terrorists about that… Oh wait, that is where they want to drag the world back into.
Torture while not a welcome idea is a tool needed to extract information that can be combined with independently gleaned data to confirm an upcoming terrorist attack.
We need to be aware that we are not fighting civilized people/societies with differing political ideas and Governments but an entity that has no respect or caring for human life. International law (Ha!!, what a joke that is) has no meaning as no law has any meaning to them.
As far as I am concerned, any device or method that can be used to extract data must be used and the bleeding hearts can cry their tears but will never acknowledge that those methods kept them safe and their being politically correct only results in megadeaths.
People realize the threat the world is fighting and the complicity of its members who will rise up to protest their fear of a cartoon but will say NOTHING about the slaughter of innocents in the horrors of Mumbai, Bali, Spain, England, daily bombings in Iraq, the Taliban murdering ordinary people in Afghanistan.
Before a nuclear detonation is the result of political correctness we need to have and use all methods of extracting information from those whose ultimate goal is the destruction of the world.
The most immoral thing about the use of torture is the simple fact that it does not work. People will say or do anything to make that torture end, and thus the information is useless.
Lets face it, if I were strapped to a water board or hooked up to a car battery or whatever fantasy Cheney could come up I would admit to anything to make the pain and mutilation stop. I would admit to things it would have been impossible for me to commit. Anything to make it stop.
Given the the effects of torture I think the appropriate to ask, “Can we be safe with torture” instead.
The question is: can we ever be safe WITH torture?
I hope you will speak to Darius Rejali today. He has a lot of insight into the use of torture in democracies. He did write THE book on the subject.
what a slippery slope we seem to be on!! and where will it end.
a muslim child with a cupboard of illegal fireworks,arrested and tortured to find his supplier? a ridiculous comparison? maybe.
How many” terrorists”were convicted of crimes after torture and other abuses in guantamino bay.torture degrades the torturers and should make the whole world hang its head in shame..
lcan remember a us expression inthe 1950!s “the only good commie is a dead commie” during the mcarthy period ,and those innocents that were incarcerated.
have we learnt nothing.God save us all !!
The “ticking time-bomb” scenario so loved by proponents of torture only happens on TV – in part because our intelligence agencies work glacially, not in real-time. The brave warriors, like Cheney (who dodged the draft to avoid military service), who think that torture might produce useful information think that “24”, the TV series, represents real possibilities but they never acknowledge that Jack Bauer, played by Kiefer Sutherland, always says something like; “I know that torture is illegal, but there’s a ticking time-bomb and only I can keep LA from being vaporized which would be terrible for my career, so I’m going to torture this bad guy and I, Jack Bauer, will personally accept responsibility for my illegal actions.” In real life – Cheney should try it – there is no individual government operative who will accept responsibility for their actions. On TV, it is one rogue agent, not the entire government, who reluctantly uses torture in a scenario written for a 1-hour show.
Now to Cheney’s real motive in talking about torture. He may be trying to get us, and the current administration, to normalize torture in order to provide a more favorable climate should he be prosecuted.
I can’t believe they (who indeed?) have wheeled this appalling man out again and given him media room, after the disaster that was 8 years of Bush & Co., with Cheyney as the Machiavellian intelligence behind the brain-dead George W, which sowed all the seeds for the near destruction of the US economy and brought the country’s international status and reputation close to that of Nazi Germany.
Apart from the obvious moral issues, already raised so eloquently by others on the blog, it is generally accepted, including in many “intelligence” circles, that torture just doesn’t work, a person having to suffer such pain and terror will say anything to make the torturers stop, so how can any information extracted in that way possibly be reliable?
The assertion that torture has “kept America safe” is a complete non-sequitur – there is absolutely no proof of this, just like the argument that the death penalty is a deterrent to murder, rather both attitudes are born out of hatred and the desire for revenge, hardly a rational basis for a security policy.
Abusing a prisoner tied to a chair or chained to a wall,is a good (Dramatic Time Filler) in an action movie.
In reality,if I beat you,electrocute you,pull your finger-nails out;you will say what ever to end the pain.And I would be a sick & disturbed indiviual for doing such things.
In the end to torture a prisoner only strengthens the resovle of your enemy;which prolongs the conflict.
Robz in Florida.
Sometimes, it seems sacrificing the dignity and even the life of an alleged terrorist is worthwhile if their confession can give a lead to arrest more awaiting terrorists and to prevent further terrorist actions.
But it seems the torture methods used against alleged terrorists who were detained in Guantanamo were of little help to eradicate terror networks as they are still roaming around the globe. Another example is the release of the majority of alleged terrorists who were sent home and acquitted after standing trial in their home countries.
As the US has method to extract confessions of its own citizens leading to their conviction or acquittal without torture, why didn’t it use the same methods with the alleged terrorists, many of whom had that ordeal in foreign countries?
Torture can never arrive at a truth,or even reliable information.It can only lead to the degrading of the captors and the captured.I have heard several interviews with torturers,and all regreted it,one even sought out his victim to appologise.So yes,torture does have an effect,mostly a mental effect on the tortureres.Torture is practiced in a lot of countries,but then,like the Cheyney’s,we will never learn.
Torture is all about values, norms, freedom and most of all protecting freedom, or what freedom is in our minds.
Torture can never be justified, but is War, a Surge or even the death penalty justified? I see a lot of comments that torture is darkness, middle ages, the dark site of human kind. Its a bit hypocratic in my mind. If your against torture now and your country of someone is killed in an attack by ‘terrorists’ you will do everything in the name of justice and freedom.
So is torture only justified by own perception, is torture not justified by own perception? Its a hard discussion and think the way of thinking depends on the situation. And one other thing, we see war and sorrow on the tellie every day, so we got used to the idea. Torture isn’t exposed in media as war, so more difficult for us to understand and to create a mutal thought about it.
Rob
Tortured isn’t justified humane. We might as well send slaves to war. Same thing, in the end we would be safer.
Then again, we are never safe. There are so many dangers out there. We cant control it. . It’s impossible to be secure. But we can feel safe by torturing a concrete enemy. It’s empowering. So it’s not incomprehensible.
But we also have to feel safe just to live our daily lives. And fighting an enemy that acts inhumane is basically impossible without getting hurt. So we can choose between getting hurt or fighting on the same level as the enemy – ignoring human rights.
Cheney isn’t stupid – he’s evil, and we are in far more danger today because of his promotion of torture.
Of the 775 “worst of the worst” at Guantanamo a total of 3 have been convicted of crimes while 420 have been released WITHOUT CHARGE. These people now hate Americans with a vengeance and they’re sharing that with thousands of others all over the world.
Cheney doesn’t care how many of us die to achieve his neo-con vision of American dominance. When blood runs again in our streets, how many people believe for one second that any of it will be his?
On a practical level, any discussion of torture has to be accompanied by an acknowledgement of how many of the Guantanamo inmates were eventually released as innocent.
I notice how the opponents of torture make personal attacks on politicians rather than use facts. Additionally they feel powerful mocking TV characters. Perhaps they cannot differentiate between real life and play acting.
Personal attacks only demonstrate a lack of an ability to formulate a cogent argument witnessed by the incessant hatred rather than logical arguments for those opposed to their politically correct views.
My belief is that we give those in the field all necessary tools to extract information that will prevent more megadeaths from a cult that simply wants to destroy the world and all in it.
Dan,
since this whole discussion came out of remarks by Cheyney, he is fair game.
Many of us are arguing that far from being a “field tool” whatever that may be (a hoe or a rake?) it is a about as useful as a rake withoug any prongs since it is unreliable and thus it is illogical to support its use (like the death penalty).
Dan, I didn’t use personal attacks, why don’t you address the points made by those not in favor of torture – namely that it doesn’t work.
Why should we use torture if it doesn’t work?
No wonder Maureen Dowd used to refer to Cheney as “Darth”! I am also sure he would have fit right in with HenryVIII’s court, for he seems to have a yearning for those times when leaders needed no justification for what they did. I have heard many former military interrogators say any info garnered through torture would be very suspect, as the tortured will say what you want to hear to make it stop. I am also very tired of the “ticking bomb” scenario! For it is nothing but a trite arguement put forth by people who must understand on some level that their arguements to support torture will fail without such an obvious appeal to human emotion. In fact, the entire M.A.D. was also all about peoples’ fear of “the other”!
In this day and age we expect civilized norms in the way of interrogations. Water-boarding is cruel and inhumane. There are sophisticated ways of getting terrorists to spill the beans. Gruesome tortures will only harden terrorists. Extreme physical torture goes against the grain of the declaration of human rights. We should try terrorists in proper courts of law and the punishment they receive should be decided by a judge and jury. Flogging terrorists, water-boarding and other cruel punishments will only remind us of the Gestapo. Thank God Dick Cheney is no longer the Vice-President. The Obama Administration is going all out to rectify the glaring errors made by the Bush Administration especially in the treatment of prisoners. Joe Biden is trying to ensure that the image of America is not tarnished again. By all means apprehend terrorists and make America safe but do not stoop to acts of barbarism like water-boarding. America should not turn the clock back. As an intelligent person, Dick Cheney has definitely overstepped his role. In fact he has lost his credibility! He should learn to be more humane. Lessons from Nelson Mandela would be compulsory reaging for the ex-Vice President.
I strongly recommend and applaud for having the courage to expound so eloquently on the crimes & barbaric and nefarious activities of Bush,Chenney,., Rumsfeld and others;viz.weideman,Osuviz.,Roy in Washington,Ndirangu in Kenya,Linda from Italy,Ibrahim in UK,Drake weideman, Osuagvu,Cheshire Pete, PDY Mike, Roberts,Audre, met endriks, ben from toronto,patti in cape coral,and Bob in Queensland,amongst others.Well done and I salute you. Hope Chenney will now SHUT UP and so does his daughter, forever.
The western ideals of democracy and law are now being held ransom to a form of abeyance since 9/11 and until the balance redressing justice has been reset everything now exists in state of legal ambiguity.
We are LESS safe with torture. Because of torture, we were thrown into a war based on lies, which resulted in our world being less safe. Also, because of torture we have created MORE terrorists.
How Cheney HASN’T been brought up on charges is beyond me.
-Anthony, LA, CA
PS – We should water board (and other tactics) Cheney for a year, I bet we can get him to say that there was a connection between Disney Corp and Bin Laden. These tactics are ridiculous.
Torture is should be a tool of last resort when nothing else can work – when circumstances justifies it. I differ with legal people because they seem to see life in terms of their profession – “deny everything” – they want to protect everyone and don’t care about the victims of crime. On the other hand I differ with those who believe it can be used inhumanely in all cases subjectively and selectively especially through profiling of certain ethnic or racial groups.
Sometimes there is no choice when criminals refuse to cooperate. Criminals want to have world without deterence – this is impossible since not everyone of us is a criminals whereas criminals do have an alternative to avoid crime and torture – if they abandon crime. We cannot do without jails too and remember these are forms of benign torture centres. Torture is not so much a gray area and that is why it is always debatable if extreme forms are encountered.
Yes – lets have civilized torture and only that.
If it works for us (and real experts say it does not) then others will useit automatically on our troops and citizens suspected of espionage. Hitler did not get away with it, Stalin did; which are we most like? The other problem with torture is that you have to torture innocent people who know nothing and sometimes you chicken hawk pals will torture just to get “even” with enemies they can not reach. The end result is what has happened in the USA, you can’t even let the innocent go because they will tell on you, but it does leak out, so when someone wants to try to kill you, no one bothers to tell you, they don’t see the need to get involved in saving people who torture. It would like running to tell Stalin someone is trying to kill him. Who will care if torturers are punished? No one. The reason the US knows that Iran is trying to get nuclear weapons is that we have them and we would use nukes on them. If they are not tying to get them, they even more nuts than they seem.
Torture and cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment are NEVER justified. All those swept up in the so-called war on terror (I long for the day when we ditch the damn term forever) must be treated as either criminal suspects or prisoners of war, and granted the appropriate safeguards under the Constitution or, in the latter case, the Geneva Convention. What truly amazes me is how many detainees are totally innocent, aid workers targeted by warlords under a no-questions asked bounty program, for instance. Yet my government, apparently, is prepared to assassinate people on this kind of say-so. Despite the Obama vs. Bush & Cheney contrast, I see plenty of loopholes for torture under Obama policies. At best, the current president is “Bush lite,” and in terms of targeted assassinations and drone strikes, he has even gone further than Bush.
Yes, we have been safe for years in the United States before the ENTIRE idea of using torture…Except during the time of George Bush (2001-2009) administration–when his associates thought it was a good idea of using torture and illegal techniques against terror suspects……
(Dennis Junior)
In Cheney’s case it is not so much about torture. It’s his lost credibility that he is trying to retreive and yet it was tainted in a big percentage of the cases due to the methods used on innocent people. I do not trust what he says. He is the type that don’t say sorry if they goofed and he want’s to get away with it.
I just tried to look up any studies on the efficacy of torture on getting information (ignoring for the moment the legal and moral questions), and I couldn’t find any unbiased resources or information. Depending on what side you are on, there are plenty of arguments to support your side, instead of the information you find leading your argument (sigh). Does anybody out there know of any unbiased source of information?
When the alleged enemy is internal and is made up of powerful and highly respected politicians and military personnel who are suspected of being involved in conspiracies, would the use of torture be acceptable in having questions answered?
Does torture give an assurance of truthful answers? Certainly not. What it does is to determine that innocence can no more be an acceptable concept not even in the case of being guilty until proven…”innocent.”
Who, what, when, where, why and how questions can never offer answers that justify torture! The act of torture is symptomatic of everything that is wrong – pride, greed, fear, selfishness – in the world.
Yes, we can be safe without torture. We must focus on the Golden Rule and what is right in the world.
“Former US Vice-President, Dick Cheney reignited the debate on torture during an interview on the US broadcaster ABC news.”
“He said that… “to the extent that those policies [allowing the use of torture] were responsible for saving lives, that the administration is now trying to cancel those policies or end them, terminate them, then I think it’s fair to argue — and I do argue — that that means in the future we’re not going to have the same safeguards we’ve had for the last eight years.””
Cheney parses his words so carefully.
The only “safeguards” he and his administration has had for the last eight years is the the wildly imaginative legal justifications he had his “lawyers” wrote up to try and justify breaking US and International Laws prohibiting Torture. Those “safeguards” only “safeguarded” Cheney from prosecution for illegally torturing people. Those “safeguards” only saved Cheneys’ life from Justice.
Now Cheney is protesting the restoration of the US to US and International Law, because under US and International Law he is a Criminal and should be brought to justice and if the US doesn’t prosecute him our International Treaties obligate the Hague to prosecute him and obligates the US to extradite him to the Hague.
I agree ,the fact that the US and UK have not brought Bush et al and Blair to stand trial for their war crimes has made a mockery of their claims of moral superiority Societies without moral conscience descend into barbarism and chaos Democracy falls to autocratic rule ,dictatorship ,with no constriants of the “Rule of Law” Trading security for slavery is a fools game.with hideous consequences.
Anyone who shoots someone in the face with a shotgun would support something as heinous as torture.
Torture has been done fo thousands of years so as to get information. It will not be stopped in the future. People have died from being tortured which is tantamount to murder and the torturer should be tried in court for the death of the person who was tortured.
I saw the interview with Former VP Dick Cheney and, he is just spewing his usual stuff regarding that Republicans can keep the U.S. (safe) from the terrorist and its effects on using torture as a tool…
(Dennis Junior)
Torture is never justified or justifiable. Full stop.
Yes, DonnaMarie in Switzerland…Also, in the U.S. Military Code of Justice there is rules against any type of torture.
And, I have to agreed with you comments fully..
(Dennis Junior)
Please read the rest of the posts and you will note many references to the fact – exposed by many in the intelligence community – that torture just plain does not work! As you are all about facts, please cite one single instance of useful information that was gained by the use of torture. Just one, Mr. Fact Man. Cheney, himself, presents himself as the personal face of the pro-torture Bush administration, he surely is prepared to be addressed and rebutted personally. The 9/11 attack which so many present as justification for any barbarity could have been prevented if President Waronterror had simply read the intelligence briefs that his own agencies presented to him and acted appropriately. Obama has made it through his first year in office without losing a citizen to a terrorist attack, too bad Bush wasn’t as effective, I guess he just didn’t torture enough people.
Gary, you surprise me you mean Bush could actually read??? 😉
Gary, the idea of that idiot Bush and his scurrilous crowd controlling and desecrating our nation ‘s honor was a torture for me every day.
Of course, torture is a stupid idea, even setting aside the ethical issues.
1. The person tortured will lie just to stop the torture.
2. Evidence garnered from torture is not admissable in court.
3. It makes the US look very bad and garners more support for Al Qaeda, or whatever terrorist organization the person tortured belongs to.
I suspect it is one tool that will never be laid to rest. Even the civilised nations will always use this at some point. Openly it might be condemned, but it will not be acknowledged when it is used, or outsourced as is often the case to keep one’s hands clean.
the problem in this debate is the definition of torture. is keeping somebody awake for hours on end to confuse the person and misorient them torture? is playing ABBA’s waterloo without a break for 48 hrs torture? where is the fine line between physoclogical and physical torture? i am sure that interogations are a little bit more differentiated than what we see and hear. plus don’t forget that whatever a person says will be cross reference as much as possible.
anyway I am certainly not a proponent of torture but we need to etablish a baseline as to what constitutes torture whan are legitimate interogation thechniques.
plus if anybody here ever believed that Chenny will ever see anything wrong with waterboarding then you have not listened to him at all. he will defend it on his deathbed and he will be convinced thaty it worked
According to the Geneva Convention,
The term “torture” means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted to obtaining information or a confession, that he/she has committed or is suspected to have committed.
The problem here are the 2 phrases “has commited” and “suspected to have commited”.
If we sure teh suspect knows somthing about a certain plot to blow up an airline what do you do, just sit there hoping he will have a change of heart and spill the beans. On the other hand if there is even an iota of doubt, torture is useless as many have already indicated, they will admit to anything to escape the pain. Don’t we have a CATCH 22 situation here?
These are hardened criminals who are not afraid to die. I have a suggestion, by giving them sample of what’s coming one can tell by the reaction if they are really the bad guys or just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. You can hate Cheney all you want, but the fact remains we did not have a single incident in the 8 years he was in office.The flood gates are open, go figure!!
The Big Lie is that the US uses torture to find out the truth. Actually it’s the opposite. The torturers want the victim to tell convenient lies that “justify” more repression and war.
The idea that we are even here today, debating whether the US or the UK should use torture as a weapon of the state proves that the terrorists have won. The goal of terrorists aren’t to kill or destroy people or things, it is destroy the rules that the countries they attack live by. It is now obvious that they have won. In the US a majority of the population believe we should torture, even though this is prohibited by are own laws and those of the international organizations that we belong. We seem almost eager to give up our civil rights so we can feel ‘safe’. We fly drones over countries we are not at war with and kill people that have never been proven to be terrorists and we kill the innocent civilians that get in the way. So again I state that the terrorists have won, so end your debate now.
If Cheney is such a supporter of torture then I suggest he is subjected to it in order for the investigating committee to get to the truth about who gave the ok to use such methods in the first place!
To follow up on my last post. For those of you who advocate torturing these ‘bad actors’, who decides if they are guilty of being a terrorist and thus deserve to be tortured? You all seem to believe that if the government says they are bad, then by golly torture away. The government said all the people at Guantanamo were the ‘worst of the worst’, so I guess they all deserved to be tortured right? Unfortunately, it turns out that 100’s of these prisoners turned out to not have been terrorists, and once the courts saw the evidence against them, they let them go. What would you say if they picked up one of your relatives, and without and judicial hearing accussed them of being a ‘terrorist’ and then preceded to torture them. Would you think it was fine because the government said so?
If I, as a man of sincerity and peace, violate my own principles just so I can save my skin, what am I preserving? I am only preserving my physical body and my material existence. But I am trashing my spirit and annihilating the very “person” I am supposedly trying to save.
NO!
We will never be safe with Torture!
Can it be justified? Unfortunately Yes! As long as there are people who can’t seem to get along. If the world could just be a place of smiling happy people. There would be no Terrorists, War, Torture or Genocide!
As long as there is one people who want to eliminate another group of people, there will always be fighting, war, death of innocents, idiots spouting unfathomable rhetoric. Then there will be the need to torture people for information. That’s all there is to it.
What I find to be unbelievable is the fact that world seems to know about an interrogation 10 minutes after it is over. Whatever happened to a need to know. Who keeps letting the cat out of the bag?
All of this activity should be a state secret, not Tabloid fodder!
We should never get to this question. We have laws to prevent us from becoming what we stand against. There will always be those in our society, without the courage and moral strength to stick to these principals. We need laws to stop them from dragging us to the level of those we oppose. The end can be achieved by honorable methods. This is why I strongly oppose groups like ISS, MI6, CIA, Mossad….
Safe from what ..? What endangers us and whose ‘ us’ anyway??
Cheney’s interests are certainly not those of 90% of the worlds population ….
…the likes of Cheney are more of a threat to all of us .(thats the 90 %)…..a deluded little man with an ” I’m a victim” complex.
The idea that Dick Cheney – who presided over the worst terrorist attack in US history due to inattention and incompetence – is taken seriously leaves me nearly incoherent with rage.
Leaving aside the moral argument, the fact is that torture is ineffective. People who actually conduct interrogations say this over and over. Furthermore, this “ticking bomb scenario” that gets cited over and over exists only in fiction. In real life such a situation is vanishingly unlikely.
Dick Cheney is a war criminal. He should be facing charges rather than being allowed to bloviate on national television.
Perhaps Mr. Cheney is on to something. Let’s torture him and count the lives that are saved.
Why is this question even asked again and again in the media? There is no empirical support for the idea that torture is an effective way of extracting correct information from someone – rather the opposite.
I would recommend Mr. Cheney to be exposed to some “safe” water-boarding himself. If still likes it afterwards, maybe it is a good thing.
Thank you,
Johann Bauernfeind
Honestly, we never had an attack for the eight years of Bush/Cheney, and it was a result of the intelligence we received through torture? What about 9/11, which was one of the greatest intelligence failures of all time, followed by Iraq’s supposed WMD, which was also one of the greatest intelligence failures of all time as well. Seriously?
“The ticking time bomb example is often used to justify the use of torture for the greater good.”
We can’t let the “Chicken Littles” run the world according to their “the sky is falling” fears.
We need to have rational and logical people in charge.
Sheesh.
The “perception” of Torture alone creates more damage in the long run than its supposed-effectiveness ever could.
QUESTION: Aren’t we trying to make this world more progressive and more civilized??? How does use of torture play a role in this?
Matthew
My conviction and justification to or not to comes from the following:
All the argument about the torture came in to suport “Geneva Convention” and “War Law” on how to treat POWs.
the question is are “Terroist” ..”Soldiers”? and are they following the same rules of war. If they can “Behead” a civilian and kill innocent civilian with-out disregard for human life lets face it “it is a crime againt humanity . so I think “Terrorist” are not “Soldiers” and also “Geneva” convention Does Not apply to them. And if torture of one “Terroist” willsave millions of innocent lifes then “Torture” is fine with me and after all everything is “fare” in Love and “War”.
A question for the former Army officer –
Would you mind discussing what sorts of techniques generally produce useful and actionable intelligence? Where do techniques classified as torture (waterboarding, electrocution, etc) fall into this?
A question for the gentleman discussing the nuclear bomb scenario. What is stopping the “terrorist” from simply giving nonsense intelligence? After all, if the bomb is about to go off, the individual won’t suffer for long, and how are we to know if the information being given is correct?
My jaw dropped when just now I heard the BBC repeating, without comment, an astounding lie from a listener, to the effect that in the eight years that Cheney was in office, we suffered not a single terrorist attack.
I guess that listener doesn’t live in New York, Pennsylvania or Washington.
This is an example of the peculiar genius of the right-wing in my country: they are willing to use 9/11/2001 to fan fear and hatred, and then when it’s convenient, simply forget that it happened on their watch!
Please, BBC, don’t just regurgitate any comment anyone makes — challenge mis-statements of fact, or don’t air them at all.
Torture is always wrong; human beings don’t engage in torture. Once you decide you are willing to do that to a human being, you are an animal, and worthy of treatment contemt as any animal hurting a human deserves.
John
Cleveland
There are several good reasons we should not tourture.
It does not work.
We do not tourture because of our morals. We are better than this.
John
Since today’s conflicts are more economical and not ideological therefore torture is never justifiable.
It seems a consensus that I could live with would be the following:
Define torture as illegal. It is a crime.
If this law against torture is violated by authorities under very specific circumstances, those circumstances must be investigated in a court of law. It is conceivable that those circumstances would mitigate the guilt of the perpetrator. The perpetrators would be guilty, but their sentence might be reduced due to extraordinary circumstances.
It seems this is a fairly common sense approach that perhaps all sides could live with.
Thank you,
Charles
The flaw in the argument with torturing “extremist terrorists” is that if such a person is willing to die for their cause they aren’t going to submit to anything, or more importantly they will give false information. Comparisons to ww2 examples are apples and oranges. There is a level of dedication to their cause that few westerners can comprehend.
Charles
Portland OR
For the young Israeli lady talking!
If the population of your country who were ( just theoretically ) destroyed by numerous WMD’s , could have been stopped using the information of a person you could have interrogated. Do you think hind sight after the destruction would save your country? NO!
There are times in a societies life were a decision will make or break the future of a people. 1 life for millions. How will you choice?
The liberal view is that we should abide by laws and rules. Only one problem with that: terrorists will NOT abide by our laws and rules. So we go into the fight bound to our rules and laws when there are no rules and laws to govern the fight from the other side.
One question for the panel: is it true that only 3 prisoners at Guantanamo were water boarded?
If we want to use torture then fine, make it legal, draw the line in the sand and dare those to cross it.
But lets stop pretending that we are seeking liberal democracy and admit that we are not mature enough to have the right to self determination. If those in charge are so right then ignore the say of the people, discard democracy and get on with living in the past and admit that that we are not sophisticated enough to defy barbarism with intelligence and the high moral ground.
and to the the plummy English chap, we will never be able to stop all terrorism. Get over yourself.
No, Torture can never be justified.
This nuclear bomb scenario only happens in Holywood and is regulary used by scaremongers.
Waterboarding is definitely torture and has been used in the past by Khmers rouges and the spanish inquisition. I’m sure in their mind, they had the best of reasons to use it too.
“The ticking time bomb example is often used to justify the use of torture for the greater good.”
Little boys in elementary school are constantly making drawings of fearful scenarios of bombs and other really imaginative horrible things, so would the guest constantly torture those little boys just because they are so wildly imaginative?
Dick Cheney has no soul. I don’t think his opinion should be sought out on the subject of anything involving the treatment of human beings, terrorist or not. How he was ever in a position to the pulls the strings for my country for any period of time sickens me.
Making torture an option will make the world reliant on an unreliable source of information. That’s the equivalent of making government policies based on the content of The Weekly World News.
The most powerfull nation in the world used torture to effectively extract valuable tactical information. That strongest nation in the world, Nazi Germany, was soundly defeated and is a perfect example to not misuse, abuse, and dehumanize other human beings.
If you give an excuse for torture to be legitimized them someone will find a way to make any situation an excuse. Torture can never be allowed in a civilized and law based culture.
Dick, George, Alberto and their cabal were simply practicing the same sadism that little George enjoyed exploding frogs with firecrackers as a child.
Cheney lives in a fantasy world, still insisting that Saddam had WMDs. It suggests brain damage, perseverating on fixed ideas irrespective of all evidence invalidating them. He should be indicted for war crimes, not provided public platforms.
The solution to terrorism is elimination of its motives, not torture of people enraged enough to perform extreme acts. The rage behind terrorism including 9/11 is largely a result of our violence and military aggression against Arab and Muslim peoples, especially our support of Israel its state terrorism against the Palestinian people. This was the stated motivation of bin Laden, reported on page 147 of the 9/11 Report.
Stop Neo-Colonism and there will be no terrorism and naturally no need to torture. Cure the cause and you will change the effect.
Mr. Cheney is the best recruitment tool for joining terrorist groups all over the world. Every time he speaks I want to rise up and fight him and his like! And I freaking live here.
I just looked up the geneva convetion and the last magor ratification was 1949 and did not have anything to do with weapons of mass distruction. So most of the geneva convesion does not evn take into acount weapons that have the abillity to wipe out a whole city. SO back at the time they were writen a ticking time bom woulf have at worst destroy a build with people in side which is terable but no where near something like a whole city. Had they had weapons of such destruction at the time of the original convesion maybe they would have considered things differently.
You haven’t heard of Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945?
Venkat Gopal, North Carolina, USA ,
You are kidding RIGHT???? Not a single incident??? how about 9/11, sure that was an incident, or am I wrong on that? how about reid the shoe bomber? What about London? or maybe Madrid? Do those incidents not count, since it happend only to an allied country? i though terror was global.
Dear oh dear you are lapping the republican propaganda up with too big a soup spoon.
The Bush/Cheney regime used torture not as an interrogation technique but as punishment. This is unequivocally proved by the number of times prisoners like Moussaoui were waterboarded, many times more than recommended by their own torture consultants to produce “intellegence”.
Cheney is a sick man making these ridiculous statements attempting to justify his cowardly and criminal actions while in power. These are picked up by sensationalist media because his status as a former powerful politician provides an excuse for dragging this torture story out yet again to attempt to stir people up. Dick Cheney doesn’t need more media exposure, he needs to be brought to terms with his past criminal actions and given the opportunity to redeem himself.
World have your say is culpable in pandering, yet again, to his insanity. I’ve had to turn off your show because there is no longer anything interesting in this discussion. Shame on you. You need to move on to a more relevant topic.
Western powers, such as the US and the UK authorizing any form of torture, are allowing a direct form of terrorism against the very terrorists they claim to be fighting. Water boarding and ‘extreme interrogation techniques’ do not yield useful information, they degrade any moral high ground and provide no safety to anyone by any measurable scale.
It is sheer folly to listen to our fear-mongering leaders; our safety is not their concern, simply out complicity in these crimes.
“You can hate Cheney all you want, but the fact remains we did not have a single incident in the 8 years he was in office.The flood gates are open, go figure!!”
Um… He was in office on 9/11/2001…
It really scares me when people from free democratic countries like the U.S. speak in favor of torture. They should be an example of how to deal with suspects on the basis of human rights. If they use torture, how can they ask of such countries as Iran not to use it?
The guest on the air who supports torture and talks about its effectiveness by Nazis on the French Resistance ignores the fact that the situation in Europe back then was very different than our situation in the Middle East is now. Instead, there are a lot of parallels socially and culturally between World War II *in the Pacific* and now. Americans got valuable intelligence *not by torturing Japanese POWs* but by treating them humanely. There’s an interesting article in the San Francisco Chronicle (Jan 24, 2010) about this. A man who was given the job of commanding Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq after it was revealed that U.S. soldiers had abused detainees, says, “If we used some of the things that worked back in World War II, it might result in a lot more intelligence and a lot less of the international condemnation we’ve received — which actually fuels the fever among jihadists.
Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/01/24/BAUV1BMC1Q.DTL
Its insane to call waterboarding torture, this is a modern psychological tool for extracting information from terrorists. The same people who critisize these methods will be the first ones to point fingers at the security services for failing when there is an attack. Also dont say this violates the Geneva Convention, these people target civilians, have no government ties and wear no uniforms. Grow up people.
On torture: Why stop at waterboarding? What about gouging out eyes, the rack, the iron maiden, boiling alive, ripping out nails, electric pokers, flaying the skin, or lopping off limbs?
I mean, if it’s going to save us from a bomber, why not? Why set ANY limit on “Techniques”? The argument is specious at best.
In spite of his persistent interruption of the other participants (rudeness), I find myself ALMOST agreeing with Bruce from Israel. But my system would be as follows:
1. Absolute ban in all circumstances.
2. In the event of a genuine belief in a ticking bomb that was nuclear, most responsible leaders, would, I expect readily *ignore* such a ban.
3. The person who authorized torture then goes before a court and pleads GUILTY. Because they are.
4. In light of successfully saving 10,000 or 100,000 lives, the court likely moderates the leader’s punishment.
5. The leader who authorized the torture is a viewed as a hero and justifiably sleeps well at night knowing that s/he saved thousands of lives.
It’s vital that the legal prohibition be absolute and that there be strong (humane) punishments for perpetrators of torture, so they really ONLY DO IT when they’re convinced they’ll be saving numerous lives.
We’ve seen what happens when we loosen the restrictions in advance: Abu Ghraib, the horrors at Bagram Air base in Afghanistan, etc. etc.
Cheney forces us to face the ghastly fact that such a barbarian could hold high public office in the US .Bush is grossly stupid and Rumsfeld an arrogant egotist but Cheney is thoroughly repugnant to any civilized person.It would be appropriate to indict him along with the others criminals in that Bush group and give them a Gitmo spa treatment ,including his favorite torture.to see if he has the stomach for such brutality.In the kind of cruel inhuman regime that he would have created his fall from grace would have been shortened by summary execution.He does us a great service to warn us that the greatest threat to our failing republic comes from within.The price of freedom is eternal vigiliance.
I agree with Cheney 100%. Most of these terrorists are normally ready to die instead of jeopardizing there cause. Most of the time, they are not ready to cooperate with the interrogators as they see it as a means of hurting their cause. The only means remain to get information from them is by means of torture.
There is NO bomb!! There will never be! So stop supporting it.
Mr. Chenney never mentions how much false information comes out of those who have been tortured – people will say anything to make the pain stop. With all of the medical knowledge regarding the brain and how it is affected by drugs like sodium pentothal – surely better methods than half-drownding an individual exsist!!!
The answer to the question is no, but the question is wrong. It should be: Can we be safer WITH torture? And there I think the answer is clearly NO, because I am convinced that any state sanctioned violence at the end creates more violence and therefore is bad.
To be honest, I am quite sick of all the war…Is it just me, or does it seem to be mostly only MEN who engage in this sick game?
I would honestly like to see a discussion evolve from this regarding the number of men who START wars as opposed to the number of women who do.
Can anything good come out of a Cheney? What do you expect from a dynasty that has long prided itself with condoning the most evil and barbaric of practices. Taking after her father, Liz Cheney is learning the family trade of torture, really fast.
Isnt there a truth serum thats usefull?
Torture has always been with us and always will be. While I have never tortured anyone as a former member of the military, I have certainly been present, and witnessed it. Only those who know nothing about it or warfare in general would make the statement that it NEVER works, and thus should never be used. So-called ‘experienced interogators’ who are against it, probably don’t have that much experience. I can gaurantee that it works at least half the time, and that very good information can be gained.
Torture is a part of warfare and always will be. These so-called ‘practitioners’ who are against it simply have never taken part in a successful session. I have an extreme dislike of those who actually enjoy using it, but to absolutely preclude it’s use is utterly silly. I can further guarantee that regardless of the rules, it will always be used in the field by every nation on earth……..
I am surprised that there is any debate about using water boarding and other forms of torture as an effective method of interrogation. Cheney and his discredited legal team forced this approach on the military interrogators. The military knows this is not an effective method of getting information from suspects. Torture also undermines our nations core principles. It is really a form of punishment, that is why the Nazi’s used it, not because it was an effective method of getting information from French Resistence prisoners.
The better question is why is Cheney continuing to bring this up? Why did Cheney and the Bush National Security Team miss the 9/11 attacks on America? Why did their intelligence efforts totally miss the on the ground reality of Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction capability? Over and over through their eight years on the job, America’s national security got it wrong. Why not ask Cheney why his efforts to improve airline security failed during the “Christmas Bomber” episode? It was the Bush administration that was on the job and still owns much of the so called “improvements” to airline security. Cheney never took responsibility for any of his mistakes and always blames others. It is his credibility that needs to be questioned, examined and exposed.
It seems impossible to me that defenders of democracy can let it all go because of “what if” arguments.
…as if the wife and children knew where the “bomb” is. Bruce lives in his imagination… and not in the real world. Cheney and Bush created torture prisons where innocent people were tortured every day!
If we practice what we fight, we have lost. Those that support these practices need to change sides. They are not welcomed by most people in industrialized society. If we support torture we make those we fight consider us hypocrites and feel justified in their actions.
Whenever you try and draw a line then that line has the ability to move. You should not draw a line but ban it all together.
It’s a dangerous world we live in and the price of freedom is that we have to deal with the ticking bomb scenario without the option of torture.
Ticking bomb? WMD’s? Please pay attention, people.
We’re dealing with box cutters and a flying lesson.
Drive your tanks all through the middle east, torture all the likely suspects, but terrorists will continue to light themselves on fire in coach or mix fertilizer to blow up a neighborhood.
Our best defense is our wits and sound moral attitude.
It is perfectly okay to torture in the “ticking time bomb” scenario, if and only if you are willing to suffer the consequences.
Torture the terrorist, find the bomb and go to jail for performing torture.
I find it amusing that Mr. Chenney is so worried about our safety when it is he and his cronies, through their foreign policy and greed, put us in danger in the first place.
Andrew : Interestingly enough Waterboarding was used by Khmers rouges and the Spanish inquisition. would you say it wasn’t torture back then ?
Since the actual interrogators all agree that torture is counterproductive and does not work, we have to ask what vicarious thrill Cheney got from watching those torture tapes? What perverted things does he think while watching those tapes?
Cheney made us Unsafe by torturing people.
It seems that the need for torture shows a glaring incompetence in interrogation techniques in the applicable agencies. The ticking time bomb excuse, show an instance where it has been justified.
Bruce, insofar as slippery slopes are concerned, please recall that it used to be the United States would only go to war if our national interests were severally threatened. After World War II, however, we started going to war to stop the spread of Communism. Now we’re going to war to defend “humanitarian rights” around the world. As much as I admire and respect your ability to stand up and defend such a touchy subject you cannot predict how far such brutal measures will be carried in the future.
And again there can be no black and white with torture; either it is okay or it isn’t and there are no gray area such as a ticking bomb scenario because you’ll need public support behind you.
Finally: do we really want to stoop to the level of terrorists? Is this how we’re going to rationalize such draconian acts?
For Bruce, how many people, in your opinion, would have to be at risk to justify using torture “as a last result”?
I think Bruce just revealed his true colors when he said that there might be a case for the torture of the children & wife in the ticking bomb scenario.
In some ways, I think torture is an emotional response. Not because we think it will provide a solution, but because we want to see the person suffer. We think they are bad enough and so we can go as far as we want to dehumanize that person. The truth of the matter is that torture is really about us and our values and not about the terrorist.
Mr. Cheney and those who agree with him haven’t thought this through. They don’t answer the question of what we would do next. Mr. Cheney believed in preemptive warfare. So if we found out we were going to be attacked, what then if we couldn’t verify it with certainty, preemptively strike a country from where they trained or who supported the terrorists – when would it stop???
Jon
Portland, OR
OPB
Ticking time bomb? Iraq was 100% certain to be a ticking timb bomb according to Bush and Cheney. They would have every Iraqi prisoner tortured until the weapons were found. After the fact (no WMDs), they simply say “oops”…no harm no foul. Morons! They’re also presuming that every detainee is a bad guy and therefore deserving of torture. Cheney has the mind of a child….i.e. let’s only torture the bad guys….he’s judge, jury, and executioner.
I think dialogue has been very interesting to listen to. However, I was not aware that the topical question was “Can we be safe without torture?” I think that’s a bit non-sensical to ask. Perhaps it would make sense to ask that question if we were able to demonstrate that we could be safe WITH torture. I don’t think we’ve proven that we can safe under any circumstances. It seems to me that so long as there is disagreement between 2 people, groups, countries, etc… there is always the chance that violence will occur in the furtherance of one position or the other.
I do not see how it is possible to outlaw torture in a world where people now kill the innocent with complete abandon and impunity, and where the line between who is or is not a soldier is almost erased.
If we could use drugs exclusively. We would! Unfortunately better living through chemistry isn’t always a possibility. It’s unfortunate that physical violence has to be used in an interrogation. But there will always be people who will question a prisoner, shot them in the head and walk away with no consideration of the information, the source or it’s use.
Yes, I’m talking about most of the countries not involved with NATO or the US.
WWII Germany
Cold War USSR
China
North Korea
Old North Vietnam
Israel
Iran
Iraq
and numerous other countries around the world.
Don’t look at the US, Britain or NATO when people get tossed out of a plane over the ocean.
I completely agree with Steve Skeete…thanks Steve…
Torture the wife and children of suspected terrorists? Is he serious? Sounds like a good recipe for churning out more terrorists.
The crucial point not mentioned in your debate is that torture is ILLEGAL. The Geneva Conventions and the U.S. law (War Crimes Act of 1996 and the Federal Anti-Torture Statute of 1994) forbid it. It can’t be a tool in our tool box because it is forbidden.
The real debate should be why governments refuse to enforce their own laws. Also, the Geneva Conventions require that other signatories MUST enforce the law if the offender refuses to.
The Obama Administration refuses to enforce the law for political reasons. Why doesn’t the UK do its duty and prosecute Bush, Cheney, et. al.?
If no country chooses to enforce the law then why don’t we just abolish it?
Mike Konopacki
Madison, Wisconsin, USA
Even if you have decided, as one of your guests clearly has, that human decency can be put aside when there is a greater number of others who are at risk of harm, the numbers just don’t work out for torture. Given the low probability of a “ticking bomb” scenario and the high probability that people who have done little or nothing wrong will be harmed when torture is allowed – especially when you consider the enmity we stoke by embracing such a policy – even a cold-eyed calculation would caution against condoning the use of torture in any circumstance. America’s unwillingness to ban the use of landmines despite all the misery they inflict on generations of non-combatants fails the same test of logic.
I think people have been buying too much in the Jack Bauer action hero. Let’s not forget we are talking about torturing real human beings.
Yes, and why does the BBC even carry this international war criminal’s comments? Is the widespread bombing of Baghdad in 2001 any different from the widespread bombing of London in 1941? The only difference is 60 years and people too young to remember. How utterly disingenuous to state that “lives were saved.” 1,000,000 were lost and are still being lost.
Thanks Jane Steele,Alan in Arizona and Patti in Cape Coral,amongst others whom I have not yet read,for hitting the nail on Chenney’s head!!
It all boils down to this:They treat the prisoners,99% of whom are innocent beings,just picked up in a raid on their homes at midnight,vide Iraq,as animals, and not human beings.They do extra ordinary renditions etc and tortures of all kinds
and varieties,just to satisfy their lust for innocent BLOOD.!!! and display their unquestionable supremacy in this wicked world of ours.
I believe torture in every form is bad. Those who torture have never experience it. There is a wise saying which says, “if you wish to know the weight of a cat, be a rat.” Torture only shows the degree of wickness of man to his fellow, BUT it never helps with any lasting solution to the issues we faced in this 21st century. Let’s do away with torture.
I commented on this subject here a few months back, so at the risk of repeating myself, here’s the gist of what I wrote:
Personally, I find even the idea of torture distasteful.
But even a liberal Harvard professor and defense attorney Alan Dershowitz publically advocated it if the stakes are profoundly high, especially given the threat of a terrorist nuke rolling around NYC.
Interrogators know full well that any evidence procured under duress (let alone torture) is not only inadmissible in court, but, if found out, knowlege of it could destroy their careers, submit them to financial ruin, public opprobrium, imprisonment and, in extreme cases, the death penalty … while the man they’ve tortured walks free … especially if they’ve hired Alan Dershowitz for a lawyer.
So if an interrogator wants to take that chance, the only thing we can do to stop him is with this forewarning.
–Snowed Under in Louisville, Kentucky, US.
PS.: Nora Ephron’s “Julie & Julia” was a very pleasent way to spend the snowstorm.
Dick Cheney is trying to stoke up the “Fear factor” to increase support for Republican polititians. Dehumanising your percieved enemy is an old trick to justify behaviours that are not be acceptable in any society that claims to be civilised. It seems to have escaped his notice, that his preferred course of action makes his country much less safe as it radicalises many who would otherwise have ignored the political gesturing of the Bush administration.
The most effective way to make people hate you is to behave towards them as if they were lesser members of humanity. The most effective way to make a country safe is to treat people with respect and to set examples of just and fair behaviour that others may aspire to. Cultures which we may find disturbing have to grow into just and fair societies in their own time and in their own way. Constantly harping that “we know best” is likely to fall on deaf ears. We would do better to put our own houses in order before criticising others.
The results of using torture at a large scale can be seen by the Inquisition and the Nazis.Although torture has existed and will exist, in a country that claims that Democracy and Christian tenets are their banners, it is not justified. A country or Empire is secure when people acknowledge the positive side of it.
But no country and no empire can say this. When the japanese in World War II
used the refinement of torture in the countries that were conquered and on soldiers of the Ally party, they were marked as barbarians. The best example of refined torture was the crucifixion held by the Romans. Then Christ is an example of torture not to be done in other human being. But the evil part of the torture is that people love it. The daughter of Cheney is a good example of this
whatever the reason of doing it.
I’ve been convinced for a long time that Cheney, and only a couple of others, were behind all of the plainly wrong decisions made by the last administration.
The more I hear, the more convinced of this I become.
The problem was, checks and balances don’t work very well in these matters of national security. The Commander in Chief gets a lot of latitude. Ideally, this would be for very good reasons, but the law worked against us in this case.
You will note, on the other hand, how much harder it is for Obama to get programs passed when they don’t have widespread public support. The difference is, these programs (e.g. health care, energy) are not national security issues, so the President does not get his way.
Torture is totally unacceptable to me. We have no business using it. Why the BBC even gives airtime to the views of such a person as Cheney, I’ll never know.
Sorry I missed this discussion today. As a USA citizen, I can only say that torture normally produces results that are worthless. Think about it, what would you do to avoid it? Tell them anything they want, but mostly lies. I might add that if we or any nation uses torture, then other nations have the right to torture our citizens, and will. I cannot believe Cheney nor President Bush…what a mess we are in due to both of them.
Well!, why this question is not ask to our Military’s? this terrorist are cold criminals
see if any of you came out with a better way to question this criminals when a Love one is capture or kill!!.
When I was in U.S. Marine Corps boot camp in 1966, we were told very clearly that torture was prohibited under any circumstances, that it was illegal under U.S. military regulations, and under the Geneva conventions.
U.S. Army generals were court-martialed and cashiered from the service for allowing waterboarding under their command – in 1903, during the administration of President Teddy Roosevelt.
As has been pointed out in some of these posts, the U.S. executed Japanese military who had committed torture, including waterboarding.
Dick Cheney is guilty of Crimes Against Peace, War Crimes, and Crimes Against Humanity, including conspiracy to initiate aggressive war, conspiracy to manipulate political processes to initiate aggressive war, and waging aggressive war. These are capital crimes. Members of the German and Japanese military and governments were executed for these crimes after World War II. Cheney, Bush, and their whole clique should hang.
People who talk about “ticking bomb” scenarios to justify torture are soliciting capital felony. They should be arrested and tried for that crime.
Where is the war crime tribunal when you need it. Here you have Cheney, openly admitting to committing acts of terrorism against foreign combatants (It was Bush who declared a war and therefore invoked the Geneva Convention) held during a military campaign.
Thank you very much and congratulations and salute to John Smith in Jamaica for so aptly expounding on torture and the “:clique” who strongly flouted all rules,norms,and Conventions,to go around torture,and, still adamantly and arrogantly and with impunity justify torture in all forms.
The world will still await to see justice being meted out to the nefarious,heinous,barbaric and notorious clique who ordered torture to be carried out,not only in Guantanamo Bay Prison but in all secret extra-ordinary renditions prisons around the world,.and, will wait to see an end to war-mongering by super power.The truth is, this world is sick and tired of wars and its aftermaths.
Well done and congrats to Roberto, pdxmike, audre, and mat hendriks for coming out strong against Cheney’s nefarious,barbaric,satanic,and evil ideas.
Torture is usually useless because it produces unreliable results. It should be illegal and strictly defined (preferably not by Amnesty International, because they would probably rule imprisonment itself to be torture). What I would do in a ticking bomb scenario? I would probably torture if I thought it would produce meaningful information and keep my fingers crossed for a Presidential Pardon (I do believe a Presidential Pardon should be an option if, with hindsight, it turns out the informations saved a lot of lives).
I’ll probably get lambasted for the response above, but let he who is without sin cast the first stone: how many of the people here that claim to be “above torture” have never watched a tv-show or movie and sympathized with the story’s “hero” who tortured (and that includes something simple like beating) a villain? How many of you would not even torture to save the lives of your own family?
In short: if Cheney cannot prove his “policy” saved many, many innocent lives, he should be put on trial. I however will not be so arrogant as to say I am “above torture” and none of you can say you are unless you’ve been in that situation. Finally I suspect there wouldn’t be such a fuss if it wasn’t about America. After all, I’d be a rich man if I got a penny for every time I heard someone saying that Hamas torturing Israelis or dissidents was just legitimate “resistance” or that Iran/Cuba/North Korea/China torturing alleged “foreign spies” (Westerners) is no biggie.
Again the point is missed. It doesn’t matter what we think, torture is ILLEGAL under international and U.S. law. The point is that the law is not being enforced.
In the U.S. the easiest way to shut Chaney up is to read him his Miranda Rights: “You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to an attorney. If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed to you. Do you understand these rights as they have been read to you?”
Unfortunately the Obama Administration doesn’t believe in the rule of law. Instead it views obeying and enforcing the law as a political matter. It’s not, it’s ILLEGAL!
Torture of the strongly suspected and the proven terrorists becomes a necessary unpleasant duty to extract information for the purpose of taking measures for better preparedness to safeguard the general public as well as the public/government properties.
Torture today is Ebl ( Electronic Brain Link), Rnm ( Remote Neural Monitoring ) and Frey Effect forced intracranial voice.
I am a victim of torture and having Ross Adey Torturing biochips on my body I know what I am talking about, torture today consists of superimposing the Brain frequencies of a person with 24 hour artificial intelligence interrogatory. Torture is sosophisticated today it is performed directly from Satellites and Elf towers, scanning, reading and tampering with the human brain real time. As a writer and a victim I have written a book on this subject.