Google is considering closing down its operations in China following several “highly sophisticated” cyber attacks on its services and disputes with authorities over censorship.
Google wants to run an “unfiltered” search engine in China. But should Google have allowed itself to be censored in the first place?
Chinese Internet experts are concerned. Google leaving would be a loss for Chinese netizens and the domestic search engine market according to Fang Xingdong.
“If there is no competition in China’s search engine industry, Baidu cannot develop well in the future,” he adds. Baidu’s shares however have already shot up.
Even those who support Google’s stance doubt that it’s going to make any difference.
“Our space for expression on the Internet has been narrowing, because government control has become increasingly detailed and pervasive. I don’t see that relaxing,” said Xu Youyu, a Beijing academic.
This article thinks Google is doing the right thing but it has nothing to do with freedom of expression. They just aren’t making money.
“Four years later, Google’s search share in China is among its lowest anywhere in the world. ”
Techcrunch agrees that Google is ‘damned either way’.
And if Google was making money, would it stick around under censorship conditions?
Whilst revenues from China are not as big as the company might like, long-term growth might be sacrified if they leave now according to this article.
So is it too early to mark the end of Google.cn as this blog suggests? What should Google do?
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BBC World Have Your Say 
While I don’t think we know everything, I am glad that Google is taking a stance with be unfiltered.
It doesn’t matter to me a lick that they tried to do business there. Google declaring “Either do business without controling us, or we are out of here!” is capitalism at it’s best.
If they cannot abide by the Chinese rules then sure they should get out. There is no law or rule that says that Google has to be there.
While so many countries, Governments and companies seem to be scared, it was refreshing to note that Google is one of few who have guts to stand up to a bully. I hope that Microsoft, Yahoo and others will not take undue advantage of the situation.
I am surprised that it is Google complaining instead of the Chinese consumers. For all their whining, they (Google)admitt that they do not give us complete security and secondly it takes them a long time to find a breech of it. Its their profits that will be affected and nothing more. Different markets have different mixes and tastes and I surely do not see the Chinese taking to the Tianamen Squre to defend Google.
Perhaps Google entertains the notions that we feel ok in the free world. There is worse insecurity in the internet now and certain people and organizations do not have courtesy to respect us. Worse still they do these shameful thing in a covert manner. Why should the Chinese government be treated exceptionally?
May be the Chinese have a point and Google thinks it can monopolize the truth. Pulling out won’t solve anything and Chinesse are only telling us how we are not protected.
When in Rome you do what the Romans do. Whether we like it or not, China is not a democracy. They want they’re search engines filtered and that’s how it’s going to stay. I know capitalists. If Google was making profits in China they couldn’t care less about censorship.
A little rollback of this rhetoric needs to be taken into account. Notably we were trying to figure out how this first year of the new decade will turnout. We have started to see little by little of whats new.
What I have in mind is not different from your notes. We are slowly being ushered into an era of TURF WARS. My feelings stem from that incident involving the dead Indian student in Australia. Another swip takes us to what is turning to the intorelant of Christianity in East Asia who are treated like migrant religion. The majority of US citizens do not want migrant workers and now the Chinese are telling us how they don’t want migrant companies; Oh and the Japs do not want migrant airbases. Afghans? Iraqis? Georgia? Venezuela.
All these tell us about bad relationships that needs fixing. Interestingly, they are gaining ground when we are supposed to be interconected. Chinese too need to realize that they got where they by selling us substandard goods. That too is not funny.
The silver lining is that people are learning to think for themselves. Unlike in earlier times, when they were manipulated and brain-washed by idealogies of religions and political systems of the rich and powerful. May be things will get worse before they get better. Honest conflict and criticism is the first step to understanding. Thanks to technologies like the internet you and I can exchange our opinions today. Possibilities we did not have in the past. Even communist China can express their point of view and not be censored by western media with an axe to grind. Money just doesn’t talk it can silence too.
RE “” “highly sophisticated” cyber attacks “”
————————————————————-
———— Don’t take much sophistication for an “evil doer” to wreck anyone’s personal computer via the internet as myself and others have found out.
That Chinese hackers cum agents are targeting US military defense websites and now Google is to be expected in context to the current Chinese atrocities carried out on it’s own citizens and neighbors.
The Chinese Communist government has been playing the western democracies for the greedy fools that they are and poised in an ascendancy that recalls the era of genocidal Japanese colonialism in the 20th century that led to WW2.
Thought the Google company mantra was “Do no evil” or something along those lines. Nice New Age warm and fuzzy philosophy, but with unprecedented uses of their product everywhere, we need more than fluffy slogans.
This era is rapidly becoming the most corrupt and morally bankrupt in history. It lacks the leadership to muster the good fight needed to overcome new evils in spite of Obama being the newest anointed savior.
I’m a Chinese studying in New Zealand. I read a lot of comments on chinese website today, I’d say 99.99% chinese webusers support Google. We think IT’S NOT GOOGLE PULLING OUT OF CHINA, IT’S CHINA BEING PULLED OUT OF THE REAL INFORMATION CENTURY. Such a shame! As a Chinese blogger said “POLITICS KILLS CREATION”, I personally think that without creation, the rapid growth of our Chinese economy will stop soon. Till that day, Communist Party will no longer have any excuse for its dictatorship and then collapse. God bless China, I do hate those bad impressions caused by the stupid govornment.
Would you preffer China to be just another monoligual characterless melting pot of mediocrity?
Yes, pull out!
Finally we see Google take its responsibility and finally the Chinese government (who already feel themselves the new masters of the world) learns that their blood money can’t always buy off freedom.
There are many rules to control internet activities. Rule on incitement and pulling the plug when face with a crises. Its time the central government learn to manage its PR and using the libel law to sue libellious and barring sites through court action. Singapore is the best at this game.
Yes, Google should pull out. They are acting in an incredibly unethical manner by aiding and abetting in the censorship policies of the Chinese government.
One other thing I’d like to touch on is that while business interests are certainly at play, Google is far from “losing money” on the Chinese market. Yes, Baidu has over 60% of the search market in China. Google is around half that. What people are forgetting is that a third of one of the largest pieces of pie in the world is a pretty big piece.
The issue here has more to do with the results of the hacking attacks I believe. It seems to me that Google is afraid of (or already has) lost important source code to hacking, and it wants to cut it’s losses without looking weak in doing so.
In the end, it’s nice to see business interests align with human interests for once.
Krupa–
i think that google should honestly shut down operations in china, immediately..due to the fact of exposing human rights activtists accounts to the authorities….
~Dennis Junior~
Google should stay, and try mightily to stay ahead of the Chinese hackers for their sakes as well as for ours. China has several faces it shows its people and the world. How else can we discover the real one without constant communication? No one needs reminded that ignoring a sixth of the world’s population is a course filled with peril.
g
Finally someone is no longer KowTowing to the Chinese and is willing to stand up and push back.
I think the danger here is the arrogance of major corporations dictating what a country should or should not do. Google might just be using ethics as an excuse to exit because of financial economics. What hypocrisy!
A more far fetched approach might be to consider that one possible justification for censorship is the problem of an unregulated internet being a source of deliberate disinformation and uninformed opinion passing itself off as researched and documented fact. A compromise position might be for Google to offer a special service where only accredited information is allowed to be posted and any subscriber, including those in China, must accept all information approved by an independent accrediting council.
Of course, given the inherrent cost and sense of proportion involved, this proposal must surely be another one of my most ridiculous flights of fantasy.
The issue for Google appears to be Chinese attempts to hack into Google’s user files, and the fact that the Chinese cannot be trusted to do business even as they have negotiated to do it. I was disappointed that Google initially acquiesced to abide Chinese censorship of Google’s services, but I had hoped that Google’s compromise would have some good result for Chinese users. I think Google’s announcement that it MAY pull out of China is FIRST, a negotiating tactic, SECOND, a business decision that there is not much to be lost financially if Google does pull out of China, THIRD, realization by Google that the Chinese might someday be successful in their hacking of Google user information at which point the failure of Google technologly would be held responsible by the world public not the illegal Chinese actions, and FOURTH, an important public stance that DESPITE China’S powerful economic potential, the outside world will not kow-tow to China’s demands just to make a buck. At this point, Google would serve itself and the world better if it would employ its technological genius to finding a way to let Chinese users access Google services without Chinese government permission.
My mother used to say that, if you play with rattlesnakes, you’ll get bitten. This seems to be more about the fact that Google was okay playing by Communist rules until they themselves felt the fangs. I feel deeply for the Chinese people. They deserve access to information so that they can build even more productive lives. But really, what Google stands for was the antithesis of the Chinese Communism regime. This was, I think, inevitable.
Maria PLEASE . the Chinese government is categorically not Communist, Stalinist maybe in its oppression, but capitalist to the core economically.
I agree Google should pull out. Now that China is rich as a country, (but not the majority of its citizens), it thinks it can throw its weight around, particularly at this moment of financial weakness of the West.
If more western countries could accept making less money and pull out, not set up factories in China, even at the cost of earning less, in the long run, it will be better for the world. The communists in power in China must learn that they must trust its own people and give them more freedom.
i hope more companies would apply pressure on China to allow more freedom to its people.
Do you really believe that the capitalist west will ever agree to earn less? If not money what do they have?
Could someone please explain why Google has to be physically located in China to run an unfiltered Chinese-language search engine there?
Thanks.
big lolz frank, tnx
Google has the right to protect itself from corporate espionage,be it private or state sponsored.
Companies in China have a history of counterfeiting goods as soon as they can get their hands on a new or high-demand product.
Intellectual property rights have to be respected in order for business to practiced in a fair manner.
Internet resrtictions should be voluntary,no government should be allowed to interfere with any kind of global communication network.
Rob in Florida.
Capitalism doesn’t care about China’s human rights record, it only cares about business. In this case, Google’s business involves the sharing and freedom of information, which is not compatible with China’s policies. If China was a small and weak country not complying with the demands of Western companies, then it would face Western pressure to be more obedient, which could culminate in revolutions and wars. But China is strong and vital to Western economies, so Google will have little support and little effect in it’s business decision to withdraw from China.
If the same restrictions and censorship existed when Google went into China, it appears opportunistic to cite them as a reason for getting out of China.
First, keep in mind that not everybody agrees with “American” democracy. Which means that if Google doesn’t like that, then yes, pull out of the market.
Yet, nobody’s talking about the online monitoring that the U.S. govt. continues to do. Then again, if it stops “terrorism”, who cares if it’s illegal?
Yes, Google should leave. They had an agreement going in and the Chinese tried to cheat.
While Google might lose China as a source of income in the future, it isn’t going to hurt as much as it would have if they had gone along with being used as an arm of the state. I quit using Yahoo because of what they did in China and I’m glad Google is showing some integrity.
Google did not help to bring 500 million people out of poverty. Tiananmen students activist hampered rather than help. There are still millions who only waiting for the central government to bring them out of poverty. They don’t care if googles stay or leave. Asked the billions of people all over the world still starving, can they eat google. Instead of creating dissent , maybe the world can help shape good economic modals to bring prosperity to the poor Chinese. Judge China accordingly.
When in Rome?
Im sure you would all have the same positionsin this was Nazi germany.
” well face it, they just like to kill jewish people’. But thats not our concern we are just here to make money and do business. )
Grow up. Google (and others) should leave and start squeezing the Chinese government the way it likes to try to do with others. They CANT do it alone (no one can)
I don’t know If Google should leave. What I think is they will eat humble pie and stay. For they have too much to loose, with the size of the market China affords.
The value of Google’s core source code is worth many times the entire Chinese market. There is no way they will “eat humble pie” and expose themselves to more corporate espionage in exchange for making a bit of money in China. That kind of thinking is incredibly short term.
RE “” Google China “”
—————————
——– The follow up to my post was a google search on Google China which turned up a gizzillion matches of course.
Upon clicking what looked to be the official website I was bombarded with malicious spyware and virus warnings demanding immediate attention, so I immediately turned the computer off to reboot and ran my own programs my son installed.
Don’t know what’s going on at Google China, but I won’t make the mistake of even attempting to visit anything that sniffs of Google China after that near disaster.
Trouble with this one know is that it’s all a bit late, I think Google should have made a stand in the first place and refused to impose government bidden censorship – it would have been nice to see someone standing up to Chinese arrogance for once. After that truly sickening Olympic Games, their shenanigans over COP15, and some of the horrors they’re perpetrating in Africa, isn’t it time we consumers started boycotting all that cheap trash produced by workers on subsistence wages, no right of protest, no health care and little or no health and safety work protection. Last time I looked, this was anything but socialism, rather one set of ruthless capitalists ganging up another, the Western variety to keep their paws on the real power, which is economic power. .
Not difficult to feel more than a bit cynical about Google though.
I don’t think Google should pull out of China, I think it should allow total access to it’s user everywhere. The information age that we are in is a global phenomenon that shows people crave knowledge. Whether Google operates in China or not, it’s citizens will find ways of getting the information they desire. I, like Frank, do not understand why Google has to be in China to operate on it’s Internet. I believe that in the future, Google will house most of the worlds databases, information, books, and pictures and it needs to let the entire world know that the information is available to all regardless of location. Also, Google has a duty to maintain the security of non-public information and China should be ashamed if it hires hackers to invade a companies source coding to find those who may oppose it
I’m a bit concerned that Google’s systems are so vulnerable to these “cyberattacks.” Does this mean my Google Docs are subject to the same attacks? I think Google should provide much more information about these attacks. Are their systems in the U.S. somehow more secure? Given Google’s past record on divulging information of this nature, I am not hopeful we will get many answers.
Is Jodie in Virginia (16:07) suggesting that China is uniquely guilty of spying on its own citizens? I was reading about the size and business of the NSA in alternative publications in the mid-eighties, a good decade before it became the code letters of verisimilitude in all the good spy movies coming out of Hollywood.
If Google is concerned about privacy, then why don’t they close up shop altogether and let facebook handle the data mining for security and profit?
Is safety the real concern? Is “security” in China on the level of the Stazi in the former East Germany, and if this were the case, would Google’s presence or absence be the preference on the side of Kontrol? Is Google simply washing its hands of any blood which may or may not be shed on its account?
It really is hard to have an informed opinion in the face of so many unanswered questions.
Google is a shining beacon for democracy in China. If it leaves the country, China would be the poorer! By trampling on people’s rights and freedom of expression, the Chinese government is closing the windows of opportunity and is starving its citizens of vital knowledge and power. As a search engine, Google is almost unrivalled. The Chinese should think long and hard.
I do think of Google as being a highly ethical and thoughtful company. I was not privy to the discussions but I imagine that their thought was that their practices would evolve as the rest of Chinese society eventually demanded more openness and the Chinese government relaxed their oppressive control. If Google leaves China as a matter of principle – hard as that might be to distinguish from a pure business decision – they will be far ahead of most of us who, while decrying the repressive regime, continue to support China with every bicycle and computer we buy. China’s power is thanks to their commercial success not any righteousness inherent in their nominal political ideology and they would not enjoy that position without our profligate consumption. It is said that in the US, capitalism is for the masses while the wealthy enjoy many of the benefits of socialism. In China the reverse is true as communism is only a mechanism for controlling the masses while the elite benefit fully from the fruits of unbridled capitalism. In trying to control information, China’s government is fighting a battle that they will ultimately lose.
What about the idea that information is free. I don’t think the people of China need to be punished for the governments shortcomings.
The internet is meant to break the boundaries and to widen the scope of getting and spreading knowledge. It shouldn’t be a tool for further censorship and even imprisonment as some bloggers in the Arab world were detained because of their publication. Google or any other search engine shouldn’t be used to police internauts.
Google should be applauded if it uses more pressure on the Chinese government to allow its people free access to the internet without censorship or fear of detention. As a huge search engine, it should develop software to block sites that are a threat to society like those about child pornography. Also as a giant internet company it should make a balance between revenues and the defence of the right to knowledge in whatever form as long as it isn’t a threat to human values in general.
What about the idea of simple business? Why do people think others are obliged to do things that are not in their best interest. To use a military analogy, how can you complete your mission if you are dead? Success is what forms the future. Not beating your head on a wall. If China is wrong and they want to join the world, they will change by small degrees over time. If they hold their ways and flourish, then they are right. Time will tell.
CensDispute over censorship may not be the only reason for Google’s decision to withdraw from China. Clearly there must be other economic reasons for it. Google had previously gone length to please the Chinese government and have presented distorted facts and images on many issues that are sensitive to the Chinese government . Tiananmen Square is the one most spoken of ,but Google’s China map in China also includes disputed territory in India’s north east and any information about Dalai Lama is not found.
Such hand in glove at with the Chinese authorities itself is a shame. Google’s pull out is not going to make communists government buckle, instead they might firm up policing on information to convey to the international community that China doesn’t care about what the world thinks about their internal policies , and secondly, it will also go down as warning to those within China who dare to the defy government censorship . Dispute with international community has been a convenient way for the communist to stoke up nationalist feelings that is completely uncritical of any Chinese government policy. My own interaction with the Chinese students in Britain has made me feel that the Chinese students are furiously nationalist and collectively defend themselves on petty matters leaving no scope for healthy discussions. This dispute will only strengthen the Communist stronghold in China.
When the going get’s tough, the tough get’s going.
The question of should or should not does not arise. It is just another business transaction.
If the Chinese strict ruling counters the benefits and original intentions of Google, the latter may just leave and let Baidu do the job.
What is the big deal?
I have a My Space account with lots of friends in China. Now, if I want to send them a friendly message, it’s blocked.
As for Google, what about Bono’s recent comments re: China and online piracy? In a sense, he’s right. If you’re serious about stopping a certain type of content/activity, then yes you build the infrastructure to do it. Lord Mendelson is caling for this. Others are calling for it. And yet people are taking the Mickey out of Bono.
You can’t have it both ways. If a firm operates in the U.K., you follow U.K. rules. So why should it be different in China? Not everybody believes in “American democracy.”
Especially not if you are twisting their arm and showing it down their throat !
If Google doesn’t want to play by the ruels set forth by the Chinese Government then they should just pack up their toys and go home.
Just another example of the west trying to cram our ideals and ways of life down someone elses throat.
If China wants to block material that they believe is detrimental to their society who is Google or anyone else to say otherwise. It’s their country country let them run it the way they want. Lord know western govenments aren’t perfect themselves.
At least China is smart enough to make a statement along the lines of ” What works for China is for china and may not necessarily work for other countries.”
Un like the west who believes our way is the best and only way. That our form of democracy is the formula for happiness and prosperity. What a bunch of crap! Last time I look we are falling apart and China is growing stronger. I don’t know abou the rest of you but I’m learning Chinese.
Right On!
Talking of censorship in communist China is hypocrisy, the largest democracy India is censored by inefficient governance. Half the time there is no power and the rest of the time the internet connection is erratic. The ISP’s tell me its a broadband connection, my computer tells me the bandwidth is insufficient. I know corruption is not non existent in the communist world. But it is never as rampant as in a democracy. It cannot be for it isn’t a free for all, where everybody is busy feathering his own nest. . In the developing world it is at every level but in the so called developed world even corruption is so developed and efficient thanks to their media, that most of the citizens are absolutely unaware of it. So there is no point in the pots calling the kettles black. It is only the ignorant who believe that the democracies of the world are inhabited by saints.
Google absolutely should pull out of China and build a second faclity here in The Dalles….. We need the jobs
It there are two choices, which one you pick?
(1) A country that the governemtn can provide immediate relief (food, water, medicine, equipment) to its citizens when there is a major earthquake withouth begging others, can pull out 400 million out poverty, but does not allow you use google to visit certain political sites; or
(2) a country that there is nothing to eat, to drink, and free to die under the rubble of the earthquake, but you can use google to visit any site.
I pick the first one.
But you don’t have that choices, nor a raft of many others. That’s the point.
Agree –you in UK may not have to choose from those two options. But for those living in the “undeveloped” countries, those choices seem to real. Of course, it would be ideal that we can have both free google and effetive government plus prosperity for the developing countries, but it will take time for the socieities to mature. Meanwhile, those societies have to pick their priorities and strike a balance.
…to pull out or not to pull out. why do i have a feeling this not only about that great philosophy DON”T BE EVIL
Does your understanding of “DON’T BE EVIL” include saving people’s lives from starving to death? Don’t be evil is not that difficult to do — just stand in the distance and watch. It is much difficult to be on the ground and do the heavy-lifting to develop a country with one billion people. Eventually, the watchers do not have to bear the consequences of a failed state of China — they can comfort themselves with the ideal that they have done nothing, evil or good.
this is not about being hypcrite..this is about intergrity, this is about democracy and this is about freedom which China lacks in everybit. People, we should learn from Google’s stance against Chinese rising bully, rather than breaking your head to find out so called “Google self interest” regarding this pull out.
In short term, Chinese govt. seems to be gain position but in long term it’s google who will have laugh…
“this is about freedom which China lacks in everybit.” Really? If China is such a terrible place, why more and more Chinese students styding abroad going back? Why more and more Westerners move to this hell and to live there? Why your assessment of the situation of freedom in China is so different from the assessment of westerners who really lived in China for long period of time? Seeing is believing.
i am not a lover of how China is ruled but they should look to what happened in Russia when they went capitalilistic people pushed out of homes for others to make a fast buck,take no notice of google or any other so called free enterprises they only excist for profit! the people of China could go back to “freedom”to starve and beg like in old “free”China.
krupa — there is a tendency by the west to publish half truths and innuendos about China and attempts to post my allegations has always failed. http://www.antiwar.com/ips/shorrock.php?articleid=3018
http://www.asiamedia.ucla.edu/article.asp?parentid=14621
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SbX0gAk3zRA&fulldescription=1&hl=en&gl=US&client=m
I like to show such links to show the reasons why the Chinese government is paranoia with free speech. Unless BBC does not practice what it preached then don’t bother.
Seriously, I hope Google exits China. I’d love to see more local brands achieve scale in China than the tired handful of well-advertised western brands. The last 200 years of western industrialization and colonization have tilted the game way too much in favour of the west. The developing world needs to be able to change the game now and then to not lag too far from the competition.
Informations you get from the net is so unreliable especially from international news agencies that gavethe Chinese government a legitimate excuse to filtered the nets. Even the BBC cannot be rely on to give unbias news . They will hush you up to stop you from saying it .
…hmmm i guess ‘hu let the dogs out’ is is the 0.01 percent ‘hu’is’ rooting for Baidu
Ukah from Nigeria, for me Google will be doing the right thing if they pull out of China.