Variations on this question have been posted multiple times on Yahoo Answers this year (here, and here , and many blogs like this one and this one assert their pride in being white). And at the moment, it’s one of two issues that are being passionately debated as we approach the BNP‘s appearance on the BBC’s Question Time. (The other is whether they should have been invited.)
Are you white? Do you feel a pride in being white? And if you’re not white, do you think a white person should be able to express pride without being labelled racist? The BNP argues that if black and Asian people can proudly express their identity, then why not white people?
We’ve discussed related issues before (‘Is racism towards white people acceptable?’, ‘Is it acceptable to vote for a candidate because of their race?’). We’d be interested to hear if you feel this is a British debate, or one that feels relevant in your country.
Many attack the BNP as racists and fascists. They say they are simply trying ‘secure a future for the indigenous peoples of these islands in the North Atlantic which have been our homeland for millennia’. Thought he word ‘white’ doesn’t appear in its manifesto, inevitably the people the BNP are refering to there share the same skin colour.
(The BNP has recently agreed to amend its constitution which had previously said members should be “indigenous Caucasian” people.)
We’re not so much interested in whether you hope the BNP will succeed as a party, and more curious to explore the idea of white pride, whether it is a coherent identity and if it’s offensive for that pride to be expressed.
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I don’t find the idea of ‘White pride’ any more offensive than ‘Black’, ‘Brown’, ‘Asian’ etc. I do think them all equally superficial and ludicrous.
In the absence of a tangible White/Black/Brown/Asian identity, history, language and culture I don’t really see what there is to be ‘proud’ of. You can take pride in the achievements of a particular country and culture, but a racial abstraction? There are Whites whose attitude to the UK, say, is hostile and self-hating. There are non-Whites who hold and champion British values (the Archbishop of York is one) and who have performed the ultimate act of allegiance to Britain by dying for her in war. To attempt to reduce this to a matter of skin colour is to miss the real issues of allegiance and loyalty to a concrete way of life.
I completely agree with everything you’re saying: it’s ridiculous to praise one ethnicity when they’re proud of their heritage and call another ethnicity racist when they do the same thing, furthermore it’s just ridiculous to be proud of one’s ethnicity or even one’s country, because you can’t be proud of a history you played no part in, you can be chauvinist about that, but not proud.
Why should race or ethnicity be a source of pride? We had nothing to do with our race, it’s just an accident of birth. I don’t think it makes sense to have pride over something you have no control over. If I were white I might feel grateful that I was born that way, considering the obstacles other races face in getting ahead, but not necessarily proud. Those obstacles are lessening with time, though.
Appearance-based pride sucks. It’s the response of small-minded people who have weak personal identities.
National or cultural pride I can understand. Indigenous British peoples? Sure. I hope they’re promoting awareness of history and finding relevant issues for today (like protecting cultural heritage sites) rather than simply promoting “white people” in modern day.
I think in countries where one nationality/culture/race is a conqueror (America, South Africa, India, etc.) there is a great reason for racial sensitivity and a dissolving of pride.
Ultimately though, I think we should all remember that Pride is one of the seven deadly sins. Not for its biblical value, but because losing humility and being full of pride is usually a road to being an ass.
the biggest problem in the world today is looking for all the things which divide us, instead of understanding GOD’S will for us, which can be summed up in the simple statement which was given to us 2000 years ago by our one and only LORD and SAVIOR, JESUS CHRIST: “love your neighbor as yourself.” it is tragic that satan misguides the majority of people away from JESUS and into believing in hatred and divisiveness. JESUS came to bring us all together into one BODY unto salvation. it is not about legalisms or denominations, it is about our personal relationship with JESUS and loving our neighbors, whom HE identifies as not just our friends, but also our enemies: “Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him,” 1 John 3:15.
What has colour to do with any thing? I feel proud when I look at the mirrow and confirm that I am human. I feel proud when I have achieved something like helping others. I have never looked to some one and thought he/she was different from me because of pigments in their skin.
Before any one prides hiself/herself because of the colour of the skin, they should ask one question, have I achieved any thing in my life? Do I care about others irrespective of how they look like?
If the answer is yes, then you can feel proud of yourself.
There’s nothing wrong with being proud of who you are, be it skin color, nationality, religion, or anything else. The problem comes when you start identifying your way as being innately superior to someone else’s.
Very Well Said!
“Pride goeth before the fall,” applies well to any skin color. More to the point, I’m usually in favor of giving folks like BNP as much public exposure as they desire. They usually come off as complete asses. There was though that bad outcome with the guy named Hilter…
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True, but there’s no Treaty of Versailles hanging over our heads and the BNP seems to lack the same experience under arms that old Adolph’s mob had.
There is nothing wrong in feeling pride in your ancestry whatever it may be. I was born in America and like most Americans my family immigrated here generations ago. Embracing my heritage makes me feel like I am part of something bigger. I feel cut off from the rest of the world here in the states. Learning about my ancestry (mostly Irish, German, English, and Welsh) helps me feel more connected to the rest of the world. My step-father is Jewish so that was also a big influence growing up.
It’s when you say that your better than someone else because of where your family originated is the problem. One can feel pride in being “white” without being racist. As long as that line is not corssed there is nothing wrong with it at all.
I think any kind of “pride” is really based in insecurity…
Perhaps that’s the point, the ethnic English have been insecure for quite sometime now but their leaders have done nothing about it. It’s time for the British politician to feel insecure and to remind them they work for the people, not the other way around.
Being proud of having the chance to be born with a particular skin pigmentation, and believing that skin-pigmentation is a sign of superiority over all others… doesn’t sound sensible. Basing national policy on this belief sounds dangerous.
As others have said, there is nothing wrong with pride. The trouble is when it is a false front to hide insecurity. True pride allows you to live with others with no doubt, fear or hate. As a false front, it breeds hate, contempt and distrust. And when documented it becomes a tool to spread its self.
That last part is what I hate about some Amendments to the US Constitution. The original document had the right idea. But it was worded in the language of the day, not meant to be clear through the rapid changes language faces. The words ‘man’ and ‘all men’ should have been mankind. Because of this we have Amendments that institutionalize the biases of race and gender.
This is the trap for the world to watch for. Real pride doesn’t need documentation or permission.
First, I do not relate to my indigenous Scottish and Irish ancestors as “white.” Grandad was Black Pat and had disdain for the English but not for Africans or Jews. Grannie Robertson was Scottish all round and rather dark complected. I am not sure the white power people would call them white if they saw them on the street.
Scottish and Irish pride yes. White pride no.
Maybe it shouldn’t be what’s wrong with white pride, but more why all the white hate?. The only thing that is wrong is this totalitarian world government, that is reaching into all western countries. One can be proud of being black or brown, in fact living in the USA for a time I heard people announcing on radio and TV how proud they were to be black or hispanic and identify with and stand up for and ask for special rights of these groups. In the UK there are associations for every non-white group you can imagine. But if you dare even mention you are proud to be white, or want a white group or special treatment for indigenous Brits a whole litany of nasty words are SCREAMED at you, nazi, bigot, racist, facist, hater. Doesn’t anyone ever stop and think for a minute, hey what’s going on here, why is it so terrible to be proud of your culture. The answer is straight forward – political correctness, whites are identified as oppressors, all others as victims who have been “oppressed” by whites and therefore can do nothing wrong and need special treatment. I don’t know about anyone else, but I for one and sick and tired of this double standard and judging by the growing support for the BNP others are too!
Sorry… what totalitarian world government? Please correct me now and tell me that you’re not some crazy conspiracy theorist, so that I can take your comment seriously.
First of all… us whites did oppress other cultures, regardless of what your friend Nick Griffin might think or deny. It’s a fact. It’s written in history. Deal with it.
Secondly nobody is suggesting that we make ammends for what was done in the past, simply that we now level the playing field and choose to treat all people equally. Part of that means, not thinking that you’re racially superior to others (i.e. White pride, Black pride, Indian Pride, Gay pride… who cares… you’re not more special becuase of how you were born)
Thirdly… it’s a fact that there is still prejudism towards ethnic minorities. It is still more difficult for you to get a high profile job if you are black. So can you really blame minorities for hudling together and coming up with orginisations that look out for their own? I don’t.
I think you should replace the word ‘ethnic’ in the last paragraph with the word ‘local’. As I understand it, things are rough for whites in South Africa.
As a young white male who only left South Africa 4 years ago, I think I can say with some authority that things are not nearly as tough for “Whites” as they have been and continue to be for the millions upon millions of black people who live there in poverty.
Yes, there is some affirmative action and as a consequence some white people might find it harder to find jobs. But when you compare this minority to the many who are now benefitting from affirmative action, I think it is more than justified.
It is all about levelling the playing field, building up the middle class. Nobody can argue that that is not fair, and in the best interest of the majority of South Africans.
Here in the U.S. we have African-Americans, Mexican-Americans, Asian-Americans… They have another culture with which to affiliate. Notice it is not Black-Americans, Brown-Americans, etc…
On the other hand, white Americans for the most part do not want to be branded as Europeans, although we are well aware that is from where our ancestors originated. Sorry Europeans, but for the most part white America is not proud of its European heritage. Our ancestors left because they did not like it there and it has been passed down through the generations. Since white-Americans are different than African-Americans, just as Mexican-Americans are different than Asian-Americans, etc…, the only way to identify us is by our color. So whereas the non-whites may identify themselves by a culture, white-Americans have only their color — and it is almost always the other cultures who use that “white” brand. Maybe if white-Americans did go by Euro-Americans, the other cultures would better accept this, but that is not going to happen.
I thought most people left Europe to make a better life for themselves in North America. Because they didn’t have the advantages of wealthy European families, they came here to try to make something of themselves. It was more the working class that came here.
Black or white,in this nuke era we should be discusing more objective issues than abstract issues like skin pigments.lets leave such issues in kindergerten classes and tackles issues like that realy affect our daily lives l.e reducing the povervty levels in africa e.t.c
Dave,
my feeling is very different. i heard plenty of americans proudly telling me that they are from german, england etc. white americans are in fact very proud of their european heritage.
what shocked me was a statment of one of my wife’s best friends (39 years long firnedship), she is black, that color is more important than friendship. to me that is absolutly horrific. how can you chose color over a friend? in such an enviroment we will never come together.
An absurd lack of education makes some people to take pride in the pigmentation of the skin a superficial difference whereas the other important organs of the body are the same.
The white british could certainly take great pride in so many things that the British invented that has benefitted people all over the world.
There is nothing wrong with being prideful. Take pride in being a good person; not the color of your skin.
Being proud of having a white skin is just as stupid as being proud of having black skin or one of the colors in between. It makes as much sense as being proud that you have eyes.
White pride advocates and black pride advocates are, at best, deluded and, at worst, malicious.
It’s just a sneaky way to try for some pay-back.
A pox on both your houses, I say.
It is wrong because if people are interested only in colour, they are interested in only superficial things. They have no deep thoughts & deep understanding of things. What is the use of having dark minds & thoughts inspite of having white skins? I am white too- okay I am tanned- but I saw & met several Africans who were very good & beautiful. I see deep & think deep.
My skin burns when I go out in the sun & doesn’t give me any protection ( it is created for this purpose ) from UV rays.
It wrinkles fast & weathers fast. Why should I be proud of it?
Dr. Krishna Kumari Challa
The BBC should be ashamed of inviting a ludicrous Black History fabricator on Question time.
I agree with everthing that Joshua Soap has written. I’m white – Irish/Scottish ancestry, but born and lived in Uk until aged 33 yrs. I consider myself British/Australian. I honestly think White skinned people are disliked by Coloured skinned people far more than the other way. Joan-Anne.
While we have every right to take pride in our cast, colour and creed; nevertheless, it must never be misused for discrimination or intimidation of each others.
Pride is one of the original sins. No good can ever come from this, and therefore society must act to expose individuals and organisation.
Why is white pride a dirty word. Since when did caucasion ancestry become so second class. It seems all cultures despise us including caucasion people. Sometimes I feel we are the opressed minority in Great Britain. Oh , should I have said Great??? Never know what to say these days!
I agree about the “white” bashing, so let’s get a little perspective now. What has been the “white’s” contribution to the well being of the world and civilization?
Antibiotics, invented by a “White” has saved millions of people all over the world, Vaccination against many sickness like Polio, T.B. etc. likewise invented by a “white”, Radio and Television, (by a White), The Rights of Man, Printing Press, Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to animals, Aviation, Space Exploration, Votes for Women, Electric motors, generators, and electric distribution, Equal Rights for Women. There are many others. Am I proud of being “white? How absurd. Now when I go for my radiology check up to morrow for cancer I will silently thank those inspirational people who are saving my life.
Nobody bashes whites, so stop acting like you’re so hard done by!
We’re simply saying that the notion of taking pride in ones race is a ridiculous one, since it isn’t an achievement of any sort. Why should we feel pride in something we haven’t accomplished?
Also, if being white makes you so great, please tell us about your amazing achievements. We would love to hear about them, but please don’t take the credit for inventing the vaccines for Polio and T.B. The last I checked, the other great inventions that you mentioned were not invented by a certain Maxine.
They were invented by human beings, and you have no right taking credit for their work, or even thinking you’re superior because you happen to have some arbitrary characteristic in common with those people.
The only reason people of African descent haven’t made more of a scientific contribution to humanity to date is because they have constantly been put down and told they are inferior. This has slowly been changing since the 1950’s.
When you are white and part of a small (less that 1.0% of population) minority who is associated with leading the unpleasant historical past of slavery, indenturship, and colonialism, added to which you are considered to be part of a current day “privileged minority” and all the class bogies that go with it, you are often forced in to thinking in terms of black and white and regularly have to reinforce acceptance of who and what you are to avoid being led in to feeling that you might have something to be ashamed of. Most of the time however life goes on and people’s colour are not an issue.
What to say to people who have never been ashamed of the hideous treatment whites have dished out based on the delusion of natural superiority?
@ Jens
Color over friends. My next door neighbor was black, we were best friends outside of school, would always play together, hang over at each other’s houses, but as soon as we got to school, he would only associate with other blacks. As soon as we got off the bus in the neighborhood, we’d be best buds.
Pride is excessive belief in one’s own abilities that interferes with the individual’s recognition of the grace of God. It has been called the sin from which all others arise. (deadlysins.com)
If we remove the religion from the interpretation of pride then sin becomes self inflicted nonsense.
If self inflicted nonsense is abstract then so too is “white pride.” This abstraction however manifest itself in the warring nature of “white pride” which has caused much suffering to many peoples of the world.
Non-white races can be accused of having fallen prey to the sin of pride because they allowed themselves to feel second class – by white pride – and need/needed to boost their collective egos from time to time.
Expressing white pride is the wrong way to balance weighted scales but it is important to expose sinners to the unsuspecting many.
This is a stupid question.
Why should anybody take pride in something they haven’t achieved?
Another way of phrasing this question is: Do you think being white makes you superior? It might still give you some sort of cultural advantage, but why celebrate that?
Perhaps those of us who weren’t born disabled should celebrate that too, and rub it in the faces of those that are?
Clearly this sort of thinking is warped, and just sick to be honest.
We might all come from animals, and it might be instinctual to promote those basic principals such as “survival of the fittest”, but you would think our superior intellect would enable us to rise above this, and reason that we want to strive for a humanity that is principled above all else, one of the obvious principals being fairness regardless of race, disability status, class etc.
Not only is there an ethical argument for this, but for those of you who are motivated more by selfish desires, this kind of principled perspective would benefit all of humanity (by ending the reason for most wars, encouraging co-operation between nations etc.) and in so doing, benefit you.
I really like this comment:
I don’t really give any significance to the complete random chance that resulted in me being born white. I don’t give it any moral, sociological, cultural, intellectual, or profound physical meaning or content. I think of it as a minimally interesting, primarily cosmetic characteristic that has been invested with some significance by others so that I have gained an unfair cultural advantage in this society by it. I recognize that I’m lucky enough not to have to notice or worry about race, usually, or even to consider it or think of myself as white.
I think a lot of people are being rather disingenuous over this one. The whole Black Pride ethos arose because of the way people of non-European descent were treated by those of European descent when in positions of power during colonial times, attitudes that survived until very recently, notably in the US and South Africa. Because those oppressed people were considered by society and the law to be inferior the only logical response was to engender an attitude of pride in their ethnic origins as a way of combating that oppression. If people can’t feel that they are equal human beings, how on earth can they fight back?
Don’t quite see how “white pride” fits into that equation.
The irony is that all human beings, all peoples, are descendants of the African “Lucy”, the first hominid. We are all black first, black is the basic central core of our DNA.
So. At the core of it, a racist hates himself, hates the center of his own being.
A member of the BNP hates himself.
I replied to another comment earlier today, but it appears that it hasn’t been published. This is probably because I find it difficult to hide my disgust.
For the sake of a good debate, I will try my best to do that now, and re-publish some points I made earlier, specifically addressing some points raised by Josiah Soap:
First of all, white people did oppress other cultures, regardless of what Nick Griffin might think or deny. It’s a fact. It’s written in history. Deal with it.
Secondly nobody is suggesting that we make amends for what was done in the past; simply that we now level the playing field and choose to treat all people equally. Part of that means, not thinking that you’re racially superior to others (That means: White pride, Black pride, Indian Pride, Gay pride, etc. Who cares? You’re not more special because of how you were born)
Thirdly… it’s a fact that there is still prejudism towards ethnic minorities. It is still more difficult for you to get a high profile job if you are black. So can you really blame minorities for huddling together and coming up with orginisations that look out for their own? I don’t.
I have to agree with many here – taking pride in the cards we are dealt at birth diminishes the pride we can feel for what we achieve, either as individuals, as members of an enlightened society or as human beings.
Tom,
we are still the monkeys that climbed of the tree. this explains why we have issues with other monkey tribes…..
pride of color is as absured as me being proud of being 6’8″. While i look down on short people due the height difference, i do not look down on short people for being short…..
There is nothing wrong with the white pride, or brown pride or red pride or black pride.THE PRIDE LIES IN ONES WORK,CAPABILITY,YOUR DEEDS. Britain was rulling the World, there is no pride in that.The entire world is FREE, TO SHOW THEIR CAPABILITIES AND STAND WITH THE HEAD HIGH UP WITH PRIDE.
So we must have a strong heart, and pacience to listen to the Leader od BNP not oppose him or distract him in any way. He is a human being not an animal. One day he will realise that the World does not go arround the colour of the skin, but only the capabilities of a person, a nation for that matter. Please give Mr. Griffin time to realise the facts of life. He does have the capability to realise them with time.
May God, Waheguru, Allah bless you all
B. S. Bhatia
The excess is pride, the moderate is esteem
While I am not fully up to date with what the BNP stands for, this man is an MP ..which means that he has been elected to power.
What is everyone so scared about ?. The BNP is hardly going to run the country after the next election …or even be the opposition.
It was a sad sight outside the BBC today ..the people protesting looked like ..out of work louts shouting and screaming and acting like animals, but they did one thing , the entire British press was there …and that’s publicity money can’t buy.
Why are there no protests when Muslims preach hatred against British people?
I am not a BNP supporter and never will be ..but will be watching tonight ..and it’s my guess they will attract a few more supporters.
Well done protesters ..you made your point.
seeing those protests filled me with a deep sense of hope for humanity
It is hard to keep track of whether I am in “Hispanic Heritage Month”, or “Black Heritage Month” so I will check with the Black Congressional Caucus, or the Hispanic Congressional Caucus. I hope I don’t run into the Gay Pride parade on the way. If I do a police officer from the Black Policemens Union or the Hispanic Policemens Union, or the Asian Policemens Union, will probably give me a ticket. Maybe the Asian Chamber of Commerce can direct me to a racial sensitivity class so I can learn how to properly understand “diversity”. Right now all I understand is that since I am white I am not allowed to be a part of it, and that I have no heritage, and if i thought that i did i would be a racist. It’s really very simple.
Nothing wrong — just don’t over-exert ones’ pride to oppress the poor, the disadvantaged, the less-than-fortunate or any other ethnic group.
Remember, everyone has pride, it is their unquestionable right.
I think white pride is hypocritical. The same people who are battling so hard for a “pure white” and nationalistic England, have intruded and are continuing to intrude in Africa, India, Australia, and so many regions they are not natives of. I am not a supporter of Robert Mugabe, but are not Black Zimbabweans trying to be nationalistic in wanting the whites off of the majority of agricultural lands or all together out of their country? Why? because the white minority are limiting black native opportunity and white land owners wield most of the economic power? Whether it is White, Black, Red, Yellow or whatever color pride it might be, it is insular in and of itself. The more any country is exclusively and racially nationalistic, global economic activity would be hampered, and would would set the stage for war; because with this concept of exclusive ethnic nationalistic pride, enters the adjoining voice of domination and supremacy of one race/nation over another. History has reminded us of this fact all too often. Ancient Egypt, Ancient Babylon, Ancient Pagan Rome, Early Papal Roman Empire, Islam, Mongol Empire, Ottoman Empire, Hitler’s Germany….need I go on?
Its self defeating to try and rally support or achieve power riding on the back of the ugly beast of racism. One should be proud of his skin colour,right! but should never judge a man by it. Martin Luther preached it,Barack Obama practicalised it.
I have no problem with white pride; But, we all need to be inclusive with other races and ethnic groups in our society….
=Dennis Junior=
What is “white”?
I’m “white”, but I’ve been mistaken for being:
– Greek
– Arab
– Jewish
– Iranian
– Muslim
– Spanish
– Italian
– Romanian
– Gypsy
My true heritage is:
– English
– Russian
– Polish
– Baltic German
– French
– Indian
– Portuguese
– Jewish
I’ve got an obviously German surname, and I’m as British as fish & chips, born in Scotland, raised in London, my family’s Russian Orthodox by faith and my kids are Danish.
So all this “White” stuff, is really a load of old cobblers, isn’t it?
This is the silliest thing I’ve ever read on WHYS. Considering the way many whites have (and continue to) treat various people of color, what the hell do they have to be proud of?
If someone tells you that as a white you’re not entitled to be proud of yourself under any circumstances, why should you care? You should know your own worth. People who know their own worth don’t have to trumpet it from the hilltops or find fault with other skin colors. They concentrate on actualities of wrongdoing rather than some silly concept of skin color or ancestry being all-important. That applies to those of all skin colors and nationalities.
The danger inherent in parties like the BNP is that they will try to ride the dragon of fear, hate and anger to power. The time to shut such parties up is when the voters go to the polls.
However, as in the German NAZI era, BNP- type tactics work if the other political entities fearfully agree to give credibility to thuggish elements because they mistakenly believe they can use that demon for their own aims and can control it. They were wrong in Germany, with horrible consequences.
Pray whar exactly is this US construct Hispanic?
I fail to understand what it means – other that people from South/Central America and possibly parts of the Caribbean whose countroes were colonised by the Spanish and Portugese – since when has that been an ethnic group?
I am European and wouldn’t dream of differentiating people from the Iberian peninsula as somehow ethnically separate.
Someone please explain.
Any pride that comes from a person’s birth situation whether it is skin color or birth place is not founded. People can be grateful for these things, but take pride in???They haven’t done anything to get these.
People regardless of color have done racist things to others. Look at the US. White presidents, black president, they still all send troops to fight and to kill people in other countries who happen to be another color.
I don’t think it’s a color issue. If people want to play the color card, everyone will see through it anyway. Hitler wasn’t so much white, as he was a politician who was prejudiced and there are many of those all over the world today. This is not primarily a white issue, but a racist issue. Germany is not the only country in the world who had/has a racist leader. There have been and continue to be genocides through out the world. It’s just there have been more movies made of them. When Hollywood starts making movies about African nations, Asian nations, etc. it will be a genre.
There is usually a couple of proud ‘Black Man in Prague’ on Charles Bridge. Would it be the same if a White man did the same in Zimbabwe ? Personally I think you would be incredibly brave if you were a White person in Zimbabwe at the moment. Like for like discrimination and anti-discrimination is not the path to a fair society.
It’s the fact that you’re saying “White” as opposed to “English” etc. By saying “white”, you are saying that you have pride for all people of white skin colour. If someone was to say “English pride”, it would not be offensive to non-white people.
Im sick not being able to stand up and be proud of who i am I AM WHITE , white as they come and i am very proud to be SO STOP THINKING JUST BECAUSE I STAND UP AND SAY WHITE PRIDE IM racist …to be honest as of today i am racist do you wanna know why??? because of the blacks Mexicans and Asians always getting on my case of being white pride you turned me racist by being prejudice towards me so guess what America you just made another Nazi :p