One of the “darkest chapters” in Ireland’s history is how the Irish Deputy Prime Minister refers to the abuse of children in Catholic- run institutions.
Thousands of children were abused over 60 years according to a report which took 9 years to produce but will NOT be used for criminal prosecutions.
The Christian Brothers successfully sued the commission who produced the report to keep the names of the guilty anonymous.
This is John Walsh from the Irish Survivors of Child Abuse , who says :
“I would have never opened my wounds if I’d known this was going to be the end result. It has devastated me and will devastate most victims because there are no criminal proceedings and no accountability whatsoever.”
It’s not the first time people in the Catholic church has been implicated – and indeed found guilty of – child abuse.
There’s this case in Seattle. Here’s a few more. Here’s what one victim went through.
Compensation has been paid, apologies have been offered, procedures are said to have been tightened up and vetting is now more rigorous.
This Archbishop even praised the pervert priests for facing up to their actions.
So is it time to trust Church run schools and institutions with the welfare of your child ? Here’s one famous Catholic writer- Mary Kenny- arguing that these cases are aberrations and the vast majority of priests and teachers are decent and upstanding.
This writer – Laura Canning – argues that lessons still haven’t been learnt.
When the BBC put up a debate about this story we received thousands of responses from all around the world highlighting what took place during their education, and some of them vowing not to send their children to similar institutions.
Here’s a sample :
“I was born in the USA to Irish immigrants who thought I would get a better education back in Ireland rather than staying inthe USA when I was a teenager. By the time I left Ireland I was totally at a loss as to how to function in society. I spent most of my young adult life very dysfunctionally.”
“
This happened to me, both by Christian Brothers at Public school in the UK and by a Father in Trinidad . Sadistic treatment and sexual malpractices appear to be normal amongst certain clergy. As young boys we never mentioned to our peers.”
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Yez.I do, One man mistakes should not be put on the entire Catholic`s educations systems and therefore should fall on the owner!!! If Catholic Missionaries were never bolders enough to come to what was known to be voliatile Southern Sudan by then i`d have not been a member of literates society today in the time were they faces hostiles communities,tropical diseases,hostile environment together with us plus unprecidented pressure from the government,militias and the rebels.However rightaway from ma primaries i started my top class(Class zero) in Protestians owned school 4 years before i joined Catholic runs school but it gone well with me though these child abuses were not very common or absent at all in that periods.I trust them,i like them and i`ll definitely influences my future children to join Catholic`s runs schools if possible.
No, I would not trust the Catholic Church or any church with my children. My grandfather used to warn my mother when she was a young girl about the catholic priests, telling her that a priest is still a man. I wonder if they were allowed to marry, would there be less abuse? Or maybe it wouldn’t make a difference, I have heard people say it is less about sex than it is about power. In any case, I believe I read in the bible that the ideal priest in the husband of one wife. How did it go from that to the catholic church requiring celibacy from their priests?
I heard so many stories as you mentioned above. In my opinion,it depends on oneself to a situation. If she knows who he is, try not to be so closed to him (a priest). Even if she is called privately, she should know or learn how to refuse to go to him.
What happen to this situation is not the Catholic Church, but the People (men). Why I say this is there are also priests who could control themselves. Not to all priests are like this. So, please don’t get things the same way to all. Thanks.
The Catholic church has just moved sexually predatory priests around from parish to parish. As it appears that sexual predators cannot be “cured,” these priests should be removed from positions that will bring them into contact with vulnerable people: children and the mentally handicapped.
By not taking any action against sexual predators except to move them and try to hide the abuse, the Catholic church has forfeited credibility and any claim to moral behaviour.
it truly grieves the HOLY SPIRIT that the enemy is working such evil on children through men who masquerade as followers of JESUS CHRIST. the catholic Church does irreparable harm to the name of JESUS CHRIST and HIS Church, by not turning these criminals over to the legal authorities. but we should not be quick to judge all religious Church based educational structures, which give our children the only morality based teaching avaiable. how many children are abused in other institutional settings and how successfully do government run educational systems teach our children?
Here here Eric! I so agree with you and grieve with you…And this shows it is worldwide and not just the USA. Where in the Holy Bible does it say that Priests, Pastors or Ministers be single and celebate? This only exacerbates the problem. And the hypocrisy of the secretive nature and cover ups shows these priests and their elders may not even be Christians truly as in having the Holy Spirit deep inside their hearts. They “have the form of religion but deny the power thereof…” to quote Paul referring to the Pharisees religious leaders of their day.
I believe the Holy Spirit is sifting through and burning up the chaff in the Catholic Church today…separating the sheep from the goats…the true heart believers who are humble and the goats, those who do not follow God and His commandments and who obviously do not bow to His Lordship and Soverignity in their lives.
I feel for you and all other true Believers in the Catholic church and hope you will pray and pray that God will continue to expose the fowl leven inside this corrupt and stagnant rotten man made hierarchy. That is what it is!
God says that in the last days what is done in secret (Christ’s words in the gospels) will be SHOUTED FROM THE ROOFTOPS!
The sexual scandals within the Catholic Church shows that no one can be above temptation despite religious teachings.
The catholic Church in the West is in a crisis because of falling membership and church services attendance. Its teachings look archaic to many when it comes to sexual orientations, the use of condoms and contraceptions.
As there are less and less people committed to the Catholic Church, this means, there are less and less people ready to give their children a Catholic education. Because of a shortage in local priests in UK( mainly Northern Ireland) , now there are, for example Polish priest who fill the gap.
However, the mistakes committed by the few shouldn’t overshadow the good deeds by the religiously committed Catholic clergy. It doesn’t mean that the past of the Catholic Church was tarnished with sex scandals that it should close down with its schools. In any institutions, there is the good, the bad and the evil. It’s a matter of cleansing it from the bad and the evil to keep it in the image of the good.
No I don’t. It goes to show that no one is immune to sin and the abuse of power and trust that were reposed in the church.
Were I a Catholic, I would trust the church with the religious upbringing of my children.
I know many catholic-school-educated people, and – by and large – they are intelligent, upright citizens who contribute meaningfully to my society. That being said, many of the beliefs and values I wish my children to learn are contrary to church teachings, so I do not believe that my child would be getting a proper education.
For example, I have no problem with same-sex marriage, and I don’t believe intelligent design is a true alternative theory for how we got here (nor do I understand how anybody can ‘teach’ it – God did it, class dismissed). And I really don’t trust any institution who’s leader believes that access to contraceptives and sex education will actually spread HIV and lead to more deaths and teen pregnancies.
*now onto crackpot theories*
Isn’t the school system really another indoctrination tool? We teach the children how to be good little citizens of their society, not to cause problems and to ‘fit in’. And aren’t Catholic children already being indoctrinated every Sunday morning? The public school system is not flawless, but I would suspect that going through a public school system will make the child’s education experience much less insular as he/she will be exposed to the affluent, and the poor, different cultures and beliefs, and — most importantly — other religious viewpoints.
Hi WHYSers!
This story saddens me deeply! As a recent Catholic convert, I can certainly empathise with the feelings and heartaches of those who were either molested/ abused and then denied justice, as per your report. The focus on the Catholic Church, however, has been directly tied also to the question of the celibacy vows of religious communities, generally, and those orders which operate welfare and educational facilities, especially ones having to do with children. In that regard, I am not always certain the criticism, though valid insofar as it addresses the crimes of “pervert priests” – to use your expression, and the complicity of some of those in authority needs to be more targetted. Rarely ever in these reports are there are sufficient reasons to be hopeful.
I went to a Catholic school in Germany. It was a very liberal school. I liked to go there and had a very nice time. Even with private schools the government has to have an eye on the institutions. I think the responsible people should get punished, but it’s also dangerous to say “This happens in Catholic schools”. Every school – if public or private – should checked by the government. In Germany the private schools can’t do what they want.
It is amazing that the Pope mentions that Islam was spread by the sword, and forgets the violent nature of the history of the catholic church, from the pogroms that accompanied the crusades to the inquisitions in Spain and Portugal. Perhaps if the Pope wants to be a relevant force in world politics, he should come clean about the church’s past, including this scandal of the abuse of children. Sweeping things under the carpet just does not cut it, it has not worked with the holocaust denying bishops it did not work with the then pope’s resounding silence during the nazi atrocities, it did not work when the vatican gave fleeing nazis passports after WW2 and it makes them look morally bankrupt
That being said, I have also wondered whether I would allow my child/ ren, should I ever have any, to be educated at a Catholic run school and my answer is yes! Why? Without judging, I also believe that parents have a serious responsibility to their children in terms of knowing what is happening with them. If they are posted far away in some distant boarding school run by strangers, however noble their intentions, then one always runs the risk of this kind of problem. This does not mean those with responsibility for caring for others should not honour their committments/ vows. On the contrary, I am suggesting that there are many amongst whichever group who, as we say in Jamaica, ‘let down the side’! Which menas that parents will have to do as a former education professor once said: ‘read your child/ren like a book!’ Know what they are up to in a very real way!
@ Abdelilah,
Thanks for that! In fact, this was part of my reasons for becoming Catholic. In all honesty, I do not always agree with all parts of the Catholic theology; that is, insofar as the Church maintains its positions on condoms, abortions, sexual orientations outside of heterosexuality. However, I accept that I may be new at this, or we just see the issues differently. At any rate, there are many more areas of similarity, insofar as a deep and professed love for a Creator who loves all humanity. Teachings of abundant love, mercy and grace overshadow these disagreements, at least in my book!
It is not a matter of management, lies or hypocrisy. The problem is that the catholic church denies human nature in the belief that people can become a ‘greater’ person. The management, lies and hypocrisy shows up in dealing with the aftermath. When people claim to change with a word and then have to face their nature you are left with a mess like this. After a long fight and denial of what and who they are, we get some really twisted people.
I was raised catholic and now consider myself agnostic. This is one reason I left. Whether you believe in a ‘see all, know all’ god or are a solid atheist, Shakespeare said it best, ‘too thine own self be true’. There are some deceits that can’t work.
This bit in Ireland is not the problem, just a small painful symptom.
I wouldn’t trust the Catholic Church to rotate my tires. Individual Catholics are doing good works, as are Muslims, Jews and Atheists, but their respective institutions support corruption, oppression and violence. Atheists might remain righteous until we form a pseudo-theocratic institution. Maybe there is no higher proportion of pedophiles among priests, or sadists among nuns, than among a random sampling of the general population, but the sadistic perverts in the general population aren’t supported and defended by an institution with tentacles extending into government and broad impunity from the law. I hope that its not the case, but the lack of reports of abuse from the third world could just be due to remote geography and general disempowerment of the victims. Africa must look like a big box of chocolates to a pedophile priest. In what other business would a violent deviant enjoy the undying support of his employer and immunity from prosecution?
Gary Paudler
Summerland, California
@ Gary – Couldn’t have put it better myself.
Gary,
I agree with what you wrote. Absolute power corrupts.
Tami
Gary is right on target with his summation. When the realities of pedophile priests in the Catholic Churches here in the USA began to be publicized, my first thought was that this was just the tip of the iceberg. Time has proved me right. There is something fundamentally wrong with the Catholic Church’s enforced Celibacy for Priests and Nuns. I think it ultimately breeds aberration, perversion, and sadistic behavior. Such behavior is unfortunately easily disguised and hidden so it’s not easy to look at someone and say, yes, I’d entrust my child to this or that Priest or Nun. Until there is a true housecleaning of the entire Institution, I wouldn’t trust any Priest or Nun on face value. The Catholic Church has brought this general mistrust on themselves by their own actions and their lack of honesty about the depths of the problem within their Institution.
@ Eric – Church-based education is not the only morality based teaching available. Morality does exist separate from religion. Ideally, education on morality should be coming from parents. That being said, I know there are good people out there who live what they preach, but there is no way of being sure, so I wouldn’t risk it with my children (or at this point it would be my future grandchildren).
Correction to my first post above: “In that regard…needs to be more targetted…” should have read: “….In that regard, I am not always certain WHETHER the criticism, though valid insofar as it addresses the crimes of “pervert priests” – to use your expression, and the complicity of some of those in authority SHOULD NOT be more targetted…”
The problem with child abuse at the level of the church is that it was institutionalized. Therefore many people knew about it but were afraid to speak.
1. How do we address child abuse in the 21st century?
2. What measures of accountability and transparency can be implimented in children’s home?
3. Do psyhological and sociological tests really identify prospective abusers so they can be prevented from becoming teachers and child care givers?
4. Is it legal to profile someone and prevent them from gaining employment on grounds they MIGHT become an abuser or is it an attack on their human rights?
I don’t see the catholic church (nor any other church) as a divine institution. These institution are run by worldly people. Some, possibly most of them, are interested in the common good. Having said that, it really is peculiar, that it should appear within the catholic church again. (Mentioning, Los Angeles, Belgium, Cordoba, Austria and Seattle) Does it have anything to do with the celibacy in the church? Where have such dealings not been uncovered yet?
I wouldn’t trust any brain-washing religious cults with the education of my child.
Such religions never present any objective arguments to the mind of the child,
Instead, they keep teaching out-dated dogmas not compatible with the 21st
Century scientific discoveries. They are too proud to edit their falsely inspired, so-called
‘Holy books’; they’re a bunch of hypocrites who still commit shameless acts and blame it on the devil for being
deceitful; they plunge our ancient world into a period of ‘dark-age’; and still preach lies
to blind fools, in their places of worship. I hate them, I hate them, I hate them ….
Mabewa from Nigeria.
Wow, my comment is awaiting moderation, but by who? If you think the
pope should be held accountable for the shameless acts of his priests in Ireland, then YES!
Because he is the head of the catholic church, and he is reponsible to the church for good
or bad.
Mabewa from Nigeria.
I went to a Catholic school from pre-school to high school. My experience there was very good. The nuns that run my school were very caring and fair. I never experience any kind of mistreatment, on the contrary, they were good educators.
However, I don´t deny that there are people on the clergy that abuse their power and do atrocious things to children under their care. It is a shame that they are protected by their superiors. I believe that a stronger response has to come from the Church and civil authorities to address this problem.
Also, it makes me angry and sad that these people stain the Catholic Church. There many others (priest, nuns, missionaries) that are very good people, that try to live upon Jesus Christ teachings, that are caring, loving and helpful to others.
My daughters don´t go to a Catholic school, because my husband and I believe that formal education should be secular. We believe that religious education should be given, primarily, at home. We go every Sunday to mass, and my older daughter is about to start going to catechism classes after school to prepare for Holy Communion at a center run by Jesuists. So, I am not leaving my faith for the bad doings of others.
Despite our moral and spiritual inclinations, an average human being ANYWHERE in the world is the SAME.
Religious leaders should face up to it and admit that human beings have basic instinct that need to be satisfied at one point or the other and or one way or the other.
In my town, I wanted to send my son to a private school (the average class size around Whittier was 35 kids, plus there were some low life cholo kids there), and I had a choice between a catholic and a protestant school (even though I’m not Christian), and I opted for protestant since I had many friends who went to the local catholic school, and they ended up (in my opinion) more “screwed up” than the average person who went to the protestant school. Plus all the sexual abuse doesn’t help my decision.
-Anthony, LA, CA
Hello, I’d like to say that I’ve been educated in a Catholic school here in Spain and I don’t have any kind of complaint or regret about it. Even I can say that I’m a better person with good values and principles which I think current society lacks today, and I’m very grateful for that reason.
I think Catholic Church is being treated unfairly because although this case is disgraceful and I think the people responsible for this acts (members of the irish church) must be prosecuted, is not the same case in the whole Catholic Church, I can tell from my own experience and thousands of people who have been educated in Catholic schools.
Child abuse and inhuman degrading behaviour and treatment is wrong, something that needs to be adressed.
How the catholic church is know to provide the best education and nevertheless,in history, education institutions, constructions and moral education came from the catholic church and later spread across the globe by other religions adopting the same method.
Yes! But only here in Africa because unlike in the west where such stories of child abuse are occurring, here in Africa, Catholic schools are generally better performers in the national exams. Very few miss entrance into a university and such stories of incest are not heard at all. We have heard about pervert priests but they are not limited to the Catholic Church.
It is difficult for one to find non religious environment per se and the advantages of getting a good education outweigh all other factors. It does not mean that if you are educated in a school run by the Catholic, Hindus, Muslims, and Mormons etc you end up as such. You can choose to ignore religion or stick to your religion of choice. We have Muslims who study among Christians and who are even given different sets of questions to answer during exams. So far no problem. Most individuals choose their own religious or sexual orientation later in life and may not necessarily follow religious denominations or teachings of their own parents and teachers.
In Africa, we follow the performance of the school in question and not religious background. A religious affiliation is up to the kid when he grows up. However this would not be the case if I were to be in the developed countries where these values might be reversed. It would require me to follow any advisory to the letter.
Yes , why not trust the Catholic Church with my children’s education? The Catholic Church have one of the best way of worshiping, by Kneeling down and submitting to God. Though I am a muslim, I got vast knowledge in the Catholic doctrine back in the 80s when I started my education on the Catholic Mission in Sierra Leone, and most of their doctrines are in line with that of the Islam religion. As a matter of fact, be it Catholic, Mothodist, Muslims, we are all serving the same one God, Almighty Allah.
Mohammed Kondawa
Monrovia Liberia
child abuse is a worst antisoscial activity ever known . . the abuse can result in aberration of child’s development and total devastation of their life course. it may make them vulnerable for many psychological and psychiatric conditions ultimately results in various dysfunctions and disabilty.so child abuse has far flung effects on society.
The persons who victimised children are antisocials deserving punishment
Individuals with abnormal personality practices their antisocial behaviour while having a facilitatory environment. it is just like a recidivist resorts to manifest their characteristics when they are in the company of similar peers.
if the information related with catholic schools and child abuse is true, the time is up for the authority and the clergies has to think of changing the pattern of selecting the persons running schools and residence for children.
the temperament and personality of such candidates has to be assessed before selecting for the roles or assigning duties . frequent monitoring is needed regarding their behaviour and it must be addressed apropriately.
The gulity must be punished according to the laws of land
Hi all,
I would be more hesitant to condemn the Catholic Church which is a very powerful institution, were it not for the fact that it continually provides some kind of shielding and protection to those priests{which I want to believe are a small percentage} that commit these despicable acts.
For a Church that is in the fore-front to condemn homosexuality { of which i totally abhor} it is a crying shame that a supposedly righteous man does it not with another man, but with an innocent child and the church continues to shield him by being non-committal on punishment on the offender and justice to those offended.
On the issue of entrusting a child to a Catholic institution, it is a big no-no not because i fear they will be molested, but because I fear the kind of indoctrination that my child would be subjected to, by part of a church that has over the centuries seemed to have abetted corruption, had an insatiable greed for raw power as well as financial crime as witnessed during the reign of Paul Marcinkus as the head of the Vatican Bank.
simply no!
So people have handed their children over to a group of sexually repressed adults living in a fantasy world of Bronze Age mythology and are shocked at the results?
I feel a deep sympathy for the children involved and an even deeper contempt for the naivete of their parents.
Yes there were problems in the Church in the past and there may well be problems still lurking about. But when you think that pedophile rings exist in the world today which are run by supposedly beyond reproach types such as judges and teachers and in some cases protected by police forces you can never be certain of any starta of society. Consider that most and legitimate sources will concur that virtually all child abuse occurs within families and you are more likely to be abused by a family member than by anyone else. The Church is addressing this now if only to protect itself, but it is doing something about it now. I was educated in a Catholic school as were many others in my area. No one was molested or abused and the priests serving our diocese were for decent men and well respected. This is not to say it can’t happen, we live in the real world after all, but not everyone involved in the Church is a deviant and many people have thrived in that environment and gone through life happy for the opportunity it provided. We cannot condemn the whole system and everyone within it and these days it would be harder for anyone to cover this sort of abuse anymore. I suffered no problems as did my peers and I would send my children to a Catholic school. A lot of bad things happen in the world and much we do not hear about, but Catholics seem to be targetted more so when something does go wrong.
Why should I have my children to be trained by nuns and monks when I don’t want them to be monks?
Here in the US, at least, it appears the Catholic Church still refuses to acknowledge the depth and breadth of its problems. In the area where I live, the Catholic high school has the worst drug problem yet it is the only school that will not allow State Police to come in and make arrests or make presentations on the dangers of drugs. Their attitude is, “We will take care of it ourselves.” It seems that their definition of taking care of it means hiding the problem or pretending it doesn’t exist. This is the same type of head in the sand behavior that has allowed the sexual abuse problem to go on for so long.
Out of curiosity, are there any reports of mistreatment or abuse from nuns? My mother was taught by nuns in a catholic school in Colombia, and she always said it was the happiest time of her life.
You really don’t know the people that you think you know. Many people have various thoughts of abuse and some act on it. Actually some of the people on this blog and the program could well be abusers. We tend to trust those who are religious or those who say the right things in condemnation of brutal acts. But you can truly never know a man/woman.
@ Konstantin in Germany,
I am not sure whether it has anything to do with celibacy as much as, perhaps homophobia. I do believe you can be celibate, for all kinds of reasons, and not abuse people or even break those vows. However, as it regards the questions raised by deryck/ trinidad, the issue of the selection policies of the Church for people who do not wish to acknowledge some of these anxities, or perhaps are unable to, is a larger part of the problem. That, by the way, is only a personal opinion.
However, it seems to me that in the same way that some people get married as a means of diverting attention away from themselves on some of these issues, so too do people join religious orders for similar reasons. This does not mean that everyone with a particular interest/ desire acts on it. On the contrary, it does suggest that where people are not compelled, for whatever reasons, to live up to high standards of self regulation then we are treading in dangerous waters.
I would not (and did not) trust the education / indoctrination of my children to any religious establishment until my kids were of enough age to be able to think and act for themselves. My daughter became very involved with the church when she was fifteen and for more than a year was a devout follower of its doctrine. This particular church was manipulative in their Youth Group meetings, but after a year, she began to understand the methods used and the effects of these methods on her and those around her. If she had been much younger and had been isolated with these adults’ manipulation in a school or institution, she very well might have carried their impact into adulthood.
I drove her to every meeting and event, and experienced our daughter become “their” daughter. The fact that she was older and that I made myself part of her experience (on the side lines) assured her another adult’s ear, which ultimately permitted her the confidence to stand back, question, and make her own choices. I believe it is the age of the child and the relationship of that child to its parents that work to protect children from being abused outside their home experiences.
There are some bits I have read here that are a bit hidden that I want to point out.
1. Academically, in my case and with others I’ve seen, catholic schools are usually better than public schools. Jesuits are incredible teachers.
2. The church is consistently protecting homosexual pedophiles. This hurts their credibility on all levels.
3. Women ( nuns ) are far less likely to commit sex crimes.
4. Children that are somewhat socially dysfunctional seem to come out worse from catholic schools.
The question of child safety and justice has to be paramount in the activities of not just the Church but also the state. I am curious to hear what further actions, if any, are the victims about to take regarding this investigation, especially as they were prevented from hearing the report read, officially. Refusing to acknowledge a problem is just as bad as committing it in the first place. I hope the Church leaders are aware of this and are taking the necessary steps to ensure that these problems never happen again. As for payouts, I am not sure just how effective those sometimes are in addressing such problems, though from all appearances they appear to be an effective strategy for some. Very sad, I must say!
@ Jodie in Virginia,
Excellent point!
I’m dealing with the Vatican concerning a Prima Primaria Order the Pope is personally responsible for, where his immediate subordinate put the children of an entire commune at risk. Repeated attempts to call the Vatican to order are scorned, and we are being hornswoggled at every turn. If the Vatican itself can behave like that, what chance does the ordinary Joe have?
@ Jodie in Virginia
You’re generalizing. Not all youth groups are like this. I went to a Christian youth group (and an adult one now once in a while) not believing in Christ as the “Son of God”, and they even knew this, but I went, and we all had a great time, talked, pondered, etc.
It’s funny that you take such a negative view on that, maybe it would have been better for her to join a gang, or start smoking crack, or joining a White Power group?
And how would that be abuse? Talking/teaching about how not to abuse drugs, or how not to sleep around with every person you can, or how about the teaching of treating people with respect and love (and yes, I know about what has been done “in the name of Christ”, but regular Christians these days [at least around my town] are very mild and excepting).
-Anthony, LA, CA
Both Church and religion are archaic and outdated organizations – out of touch with present day society and responsible for many of the problems endemic to our global community today. They adhere to doctrine, formulated thousands of years ago and refuse to evolve with the times. I would not trust my child’s education with any organization that has been shown through these abuses to be corrupt and willing of covering up their crimes. Moreover, I would not entrust my child’s education to any religious organization which follows a doctrine of hate and intolerance towards women and alternative sexual orientation. It is high time religious organizations quietly go away.
the church as an institution has always been focused on its own self interest rather than that of the individual.
RE: Priests molesting kids
The only reason this keeps on happening, is because they get away with it. If they were to get fired, and sent to prision, that rate would go down a WHOLE LOT.
-Anthony, LA, CA
priests are not immune to criminal trial and punishment if they commit crimes. the sexual crimes against children is un pardonable offence. providing religious shield for such persons is a big shame.
Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. There is no power greater than the power over another person’s immortal soul.
The Catholic Church (and many other churches in cultures and religions around the world) has exercised this power for millennia. Anyone who fails to recognize that abuses such as this have been happening for centuries is simply not thinking cogently.
Until people understand that God is within and and directly accessible; until they realize that no church can be allowed, by its adherents, to exercise this sort of power over people, such abuses will inevitably continue.
What i would like to know is what has the church been doing to address the problem since clearly it is one that has existed for such a long time?
I agree with Luz. I was fortunate to have, with all seven of my siblings, attended Catholic schools through eighth grade. Each and every one of us were, when we entered public high school, academically and socially well ahead of our public school peers, and also blessed with years of instruction as to how a faith-based, caring community of people work together for the good of all. Of my four brothers and three sisters – and all the classmates we had – I can report not a single case of clergy abuse of any kind.
Likewise, I have sent each of my three children to Catholic schools, from kindergarten through high schoool, and have found the experience rewarding for all of us. My children have all learned the value of service to others, as well as the reward of challenging academics and a very active and supportive parent base. The result is that our schools, on average, have outperformed all public schools in our district by a wide margin, on the academic front, have earned more college scholarships per student than any of the public schools, and have placed more students in leadership and voluteer positions than any of the public schools. Our high school’s college matriculation rate is 100%, including National Merit Scholars and military academy appointments. And, again, through all of the years of our children’s schooling, I can report not a single whif or allegation of clergy abuse.
We may be just lucky or blessed, and I recognize the problem is real, but I fear that the Catholic church is just a scapegoat for a much wider problem that is truly underreported in other faiths and walks.
@ Anthony,
In defence of Jodie’s points earlier, I read from it where she was saying that she supported her daughter through a formation process which she ultimately did not find to her liking, specifically on the matter of indoctrination. Even as a Catholic (practising?) I object to that way of teaching people about love! That is best learned through examples. Adults have to demonstrate that what they say children are not supposed to do are not being contradicted by them. For my part, I feel little inclination to impose what I believe on others in the sense of – a singleminded recruitment through indoctrination.
My parents received a Catholic education from elementary school through college. I also went to a Catholic college. The Catholic church can & does provide an excellent education to many children throughout the world that benefits those children as well as our society. Nonetheless, I agree with your guest & feel that this is an institutional problem within the structure of the Church that has wounded the Church in a way that it has not fully recognized. Additionally, I can’t help but wonder if it would have been handled differently if women were in an equal position within the Church. In direct answer to your question, I feel that children can be entrusted to Catholic schools at least here in the US since many are staffed primarily by non-clergy.
How ca we trust the church and all the “Men of the Cloth” that man this enormous structure? First, the church is seen as a safe haven from sexual predators and not a perpetrator of sexual abuse, Second, it is supposed to be a beacon of light for good and proper behavior.
It is always an unfortunate situation when others have to take the heat for the crimes of one priest. Bottom line, the Pope and the administration failed to do their job and what is done is done.
If some doctrines and practises are not changed, i believe that it is heading in the wrong direction. I will DEFINITELY not send my child(ren) to Catholic schools.
Human frailty is a inherent fact and all institutions are subject to corruption.In both cases the only course is to act promptly to acknowledge and amend transgressions .Child abuse in the Church is particularly heinous in the light of Christ’,s sermon where he warned of such misbehavior “Better that a man have a milstone put around his neck and cast into the sea that he should harm one of these ” It is the arrogance of the heirarchy which allowed them to ignore the wide spread problem .An increasingly independent and better educated laity are no longer prepared to tolerate such behavior .The expulsion of Cardinal Law of Boston is a case in point.The secondary tragedy is the blight on the benefits educational and sprititual in Catholic schools.In the US where public education has descended into chaos the Church run institutions are sought after by rich and poor as the best choice by enlightened parents.for their children.It is incumbent on the Vatican and the Cardinals and local bishops as well as the teachers clergy and lay to openly rerassure parents that redress will be made ,offenders drummed out and procedures followed which guard against. abuse.A civilized society can demand no less.
I think celibacy is the root of the problem. It is perfectly normal for all men and women to have sexual needs, and when priests and nuns are not fulfilling these needs through marriage, these sexual abuses of children are sadly not surprising.
there is no need to mistrust the catholic institutions and schools because of the wrong doings of few priests and nuns. The abnormal personalities who abuse the children are not necessarily be high in number. unfortunately these psychopaths brings tarnished image to catholic institution. best way to get rid of this problem in the future is such individuals with anti social traits must be trialed and punished
why are these issues handled by the Vatican and not the civil authorities?
I definitely would not trust the Catholic Church with anything relating to children. While I know many very fine Catholics, the widespread abuse of children at the hands of officials of the Catholic Church has been so almost unbelievably widespread trusting this organization with children would be something I would never do. Also, compounding this horrendous tragedy is the fact that there was an active systemic effort to attempt to cover up these crimes rather than have them see the light of day. Indeed, there’s a report that Pope John Paul himself approved a memo advising that American Bishops attempt to keep this abuse from being widely known.
@ rawpoliticsjamaicastyle.wordpress.com
Yes, but you do follow a doctrine, thats what the law is, written rules. If you saw a little girl getting raped, I’m sure you would impose you’re belief that agrees with the law, but stopping him and probably beating him silly. You follow the laws of the land, just as some follow laws of “Christ”. I follow some of the teachings of Christ (even though I don’t believe in the “magic” Jesus) because I feel they are universaly good, but some are just garbage.
-Anthony, LA, CA
The leadership of the Catholic church have shown that there is no doubt they are more interested in protecting their friends than the people than the children. Abuse of children should be a capital offense. Nuns are no better than the priests. Prostitutes, pedophiles, homosexuals, quite a record to be proud of…
The on air show is about the best and most productive discussion I have ever heard. Most especially a credit to the open mindedness, practicality and lack of blind loyalty I have seen in a long time of seemingly opposing positions.
I’m a muslim basically, so my choice for my children would be to become muslims as well. But this wouldnt stop me for feeling so sorry for all those boys who were abused and felt rerally irritated with what the church did. What happened in Ireland would have happened elsewhere in the world no matter what the religion is. I think it’s part of the human nature which is corruptable, so we might be able to forgive the preaches. BUT to cover it all up, and pretend nothing happened and insist on that, this so ENORMOUS and UNFORGIVABLE. Commiting a sin is something, but covering it all up and pretending nothing happened that’s the WORK OF DEVIL HIMSELF, any religious authority doing this would blow up people’s confidence in it.
CHEERS,
sorry again for all the abused people
The Cardinal’s point is moot because its not supposed to happen regardless of the child’s situation
This is a topic that is both very sad and angering. I am not Catholic so I am looking in from the outside. My anger is that this problem of sexual abuse has gone on far too long without any effort on the part of the senior hierarchy to correct this problem.
I have a possible explanation: The hierarchy is all men. Men, in general, are sexual beings, who are biologically driven to have sex.
My conclusion is that the senior hierarchy accepts this sexual abuse as a cost of doing business. Of course, they can’t acknowledge this publically, so they maintain a wall of silence, broken only when they are forced to defend an accused priest.
If those predatory priests were punished appropriately, the Church probably would have far fewer males entering the priesthood.
This abuse will continue until priests have the right to marry.
OK, here is how they fix it. LET THE PRIESTS GET MARRIED. Thats it. Sure they will still be some, but if you LET THEM GET MARRIED AND HAVE SEX, the rates will be reduced to almost nothing. It’s an old rule that has to do with property anyways, come on Catholic church, it’s 2009, let them be human and have sex!
-Anthony, LA, CA
Sheldon you know that the main reason that Catholic schools here are sought out is mainly a class issue
This has been going on for years and the leadership knew and the covered it up and protected those who were guilty of a horrific crime. No way would I ever send my child to a Catholic church/school no more than I would send them to a school that has a violent history with crime and guns. My job as a parent is to protect my child at all cost and that is what I will always reguardless of God/religion.
~Rhoda
the Cardinal needs to realize that the entire church is condemed because the church has to be hels accountable for the actions of its representatives
I wouldn’t send my children to catholic school (i’m roman catholic). Not becouse of child abusing, homosexuals or other strange things. These things happen even in normal school – we have to remember about this. I wouldn’t send my children to catholic school beacouse these schools are not professional, most of them have middle age thinking…
we can not attribute celibacy as sole factor for this criminal offences of sexual abuse
apart from that the basic temperamental deviations and charactor defect is the prime factors behind such pervertsion.
I believe we are all being a bit hard on the church and not hard enough at the same time.
On one hand the individual who perpetrate this abuse are wrong and not to be absolved in any way. while the majority of individuals who conduct themselves appropriately in the church should not be vilified.
The catholic church also should be respected as a group of followers of a doctrine that ideally seeks the betterment of humanity, while understanding the imperfection that is present with any of mans interpretations and administration of things of a supernatural,spiritual, metaphysical nature.
We must hold each other accountable in truth with understanding and compassion.
The church should be held responsible
The lack of proper or healthy context for sex in the western or “new” world leads to sexual deviance and perversions.
Let us take this time also to recognize the similar abuses committed in synagogues and even mosques. There was a story on NPR not long ago about the coverup within the Jewish communities surrounding the abuses commited by highly revered Rabbi’s. and the even the in the mikvah (communal ceremonial cleansing bath)
I think that it would be good to discuss educational issues with your kids on a two way traffic. It is not easy for kids who communicate with parents openly to be molested by anyone let alone priests. Whether it would be at the church run school or eslewhere, victimization is bound to come to children whose lives are not monitored by the parents. Children can talk shamlessly and openly and you are bound to know if there is any hanky panky in the background.
When it comes to quality, unless for true adherents of the said church, most people would choose the quality offered based on reputation of that particular school.
In the community where I live, catholic schools perform better and their schools are usually given preference by poeple who are not even christians because. Among the board members in one of them (St. Clare) is a Moslem elder who is proud to play the role due to the fact that Moslem children attend here too without discrimination unless due to lack of discipline; an aspect which is never tolerated in this school.
I think this would be the right approach towards solving this problem now that piety is a touchy subject and all of us want to occupy the moral high ground, and, competition in holiness is open to everyone.
No, most people as well as I do not trust in any religious based or sponsored educational or training organization any more.
I would still take my kids to Catholic Schools. An evil by a few doesnt discredit the whole system. However a proper displinary system should be put in place to deal with abuse cases. This system should be transparent to all.
What discredits the whole system it that the church tries to hide what happens and protects the perpetrators from prosecution. If they helped to fix the situation or at least quit trying to hinder the ‘law of man’, they might actually get some respect.
I am Jamaican in Portmore, St. Catherine.
Firstly, No we should not continue to send children until the reforms are in place globally for all the institutions that does this to our children. We should in fact have them attending warn, loving, organic learning systems and not cold and hardened structures. The should be run by all the communities areas and interests.
Secondly, pastors must be seen as regular people too and not above others in the society. The equality of people should become re-established across the world. This way they too will be held as they should by the standards of laws in the countries they live and serve.
Thirdly, everyone and all the institutions that cause any form of oppression, repression and suppression on humanity will result in abnormal and rage related behavior.
The modern world’s views of civility could use some help from those of old that generally served all their people and not just the wealthy, well known and those meeting criteria laid down by them. We are all important to the harmonious and peaceful running of the earth.
Thanks for bringing this issue back to the eye of the world’s public – where it should remain until resolved.
Abuse of children is a crime against any modern state. This clearly suggests that some governments are to blame because we have not been told that priests are imune to prosecution.
In my opinion this is a social and state failure. Churches should not be left to regulate themselves when it comes to such matter. Has the Catholic church in the said country resisted law suits?
I’m shocked that so many commentators can’t see through religious holiness which is so full of holes. As a child in a Catholic school in Australia, I was taught lies and inuendos but was llucky enough to have enough common sense to overcome as an adult. Just put the kiond bvack into humankind and there would be no need for any relilgions which are man made to give men power.
I certainly wouldn’t trust anyone who professes belief in the supernatural with the education of children! It’s sensible to educate children on the beliefs people hold, and the past follies inappropriate beliefs have led humanity into, but I reckon any so-called “religious” education is child-abuse. Reality, or what little we know of it, is inspiring enough. And Morality and Ethics don’t require superstition for support – they are merely the insights and wisdom of examined human experience.
Religion is child abuse!
The first Great Lie taught to children is that there exists some supernatural being.
All other evil about religions has that as it’s root stock.
It is the basic training to believe authority figures without question.
It is basic training to be pliable to future propaganda.
It teaches children to not trust their ability to read peoples facial expressions and body language and so be able to tell when someone is lying or telling the truth.
QED, Religion is child abuse!
Religious people are supposed to be extra sensitive and conscious of what they are doing, unfortunaltely it is not the case with every religious person. Religion is just a device to make a human being a better person but religion can not gurantee this tough task so let us not be disappinted if religious persons go wrong. Let us rather be prepared to see all sorts of people everywhere incluing in the pulpit.
I think junior and intermediate level schooling is too important to be left to religious institutions. It is not just one or two bad apples, rather the system as a whole that should be changed. The last few decades has documented our world become more polarized on the basis of faith / religious grounds. The polarization has led to escalating feelings of intolerance… not just in Christian communities but also in Moslem and other faiths. Instead of escalating intolerance and taking our cues from religious rhetoric, we need more people who are happy to work together in mixed faith societies. With religious education I have experienced our countries divided – from childhood into adult life – into individual solitudes. If we want cosmopolitan society to work the solitudes need to be mitigated. We need people who are less prepared to live and vote based on what the pulpit says, replaced with people who are willing to live and vote based on common societal goals, not the religious dogma of the day. We should work individually and as a society to identify and reduce inflammatory sentiments, dialog and subtexts coming from religious schools, societies and meeting places.
The Roman Catholic tradition has many admirable qualities around the world. It has many fine graduates who received excellent schooling at church-run institutions. The contributions are selfless and endless, much to be thankful for. However we should also recognize there are long term negative side effects to religious education. I think we should honour the RC school institution for its past and over time publicly work to replace it gradually with something better, non-religious schools up to university level.
It’s obvious that the catholic church is envolved in many abuses such as paganism and a lot of non biblical practices ; the benediction of homosexual marriage, world political implications, some reports from down Africa go that some catholic priests have been facilitating rebells to pass weapons in the country. ” Like father like son ” beleivers learn nothing positive of this, i better prefer to educate my children by myself rather than taking them to kind of churches.
As a happy person, who knows full well that there is no god, I am appaled that people want to trust the education to a bunch of people who do not allow women any say in the running of their organisation. Secondly is it not the moral duty of the parent and not an institution to instil the norms of their society in their children? Why are religious people meant to behave in a way that is different fron non religious people? Human behaviour is what matters, not some ideology put together to keep a few in power in a vast institution that were it a business it would have been investigated by the authorities for mismanagement.
I work as a teacher in a catholic school, and I wouldn´t take my children there. It´s just a bussiness, and my point of view as a professional is that education never has to be a bussinnes,..
I went to St Peters Catholic School in Sussex, England during the 1960s. It was run by the Sisters of Mercy, all of them Irish nuns. It was a fantastic school, they were great teachers, and beautiful people. There was never a hint of any impropriety at all, just care and love. They were the true face of the Catholic Church.
Like any human institution there will always be people who abuse it for their own ends, and we need to be especially vigilant when it comes to looking after our children, nevertheless I would not hesitate to send any child of mine to a Catholic school.
I went to catholic schools from grade one way up to grade twelve here in Zambia. My experience during primary schooling was somewhat hospitable and conducive for learning probably because the teachers were of mixed arrangement implying those that were priests and those that were not or seconded by government. As for my senior schooling the experience was a bit different my former Irish geography teacher was very harsh and l remeber at one time he threw a world map wire made at one of my colleagues while insisting to be given the correct answer.
It is a shameful news to hear of what is happening in the catholic church. However, these behaviour scams being unearthed are not very strange to our societies particularly when there happening in the catholic church because year in year out we often hear of one or two either here in Africa, America, Asia or Europe. The catholic church has taken this world for guarranted simply because they have enough financial resources and can portray to be undertaking pro-poor programmes does not mean the priests can do whatever can impulsively drive their minds or heads and hope to get away with it. I would like to urge the UN to commit such abusive practices to the UN Security Council and also recommend them to the ICC because these practices erode the freedom of the children and has a long term adverse effect on the lives of these children and including those surrounding them.
As for Africa how can we attain the MDG’s when the catholic church is indirectly making society to painfully pay them by allowing them to abuse children. It is obvious that children will stop concentrating while at school if they are continually subjected to these awful practices. I want the world to pursue these catholic priests so that the world can have a punitive case law and which can be used by all countries a reference point. Why should the police be hard on thieves stealing cars or cows when there dangerous persons destroying the lives of children and at the same time restricitng their enyoyment of total human rights.
Regards
Kelvin Kamayoyo
Lusaka-Zambia
No, I would not trust the Catholic Church until MAJOR reforms of in the educational system they operated the service thru….
~Dennis Junior~
When the church renounces its archaic (and politically originated) celibacy rule, it might produce more rounded individuals. I was educated by Christian brothers in Dublin. Most of the brothers were deeply comitted, well balanced individuals. Others had an unhealthy interest in sex.
I don’t believe any serious abuse went on at our school, which was fortunate for everyone concerned. I am convinced that some of the more ‘unstable’ brothers had suffered from years of sexual repression. Some of the older brothers had joined – or been persuaded to join – the order in their early teens.
I don’t think the church attracted perverts. I do think their arcane rules and practises had detrimental effects on some of the brothers, rendering them unsuitable to be in charge of children.
No. Any establishment – religious or otherwise, that can essentially give a carte-blanche to the illegal, perverted and immoral actions of its membership represents Moral and Spiritual Bankruptcy to its very core.
The irony of this whole sick, sordid – and also sad situation is that, just recently, the Catholic Church took it upon itself to ADD a litany of other sins to what global humanity anecdotally term The Seven Deadly Sins. Imagine! The nerve – not to mention the Hypocrisy.
But perhaps – similar to what obtained in the Holy Bible, where Christ used the denunciatory phrase of: “Pharisees. You Hypocrites” so many, many times, the Catholic Church – with its horribly chequered PAST of murder, political intrigue and sexual excesses, and its PRESENT of thinly-veiled almost arrogant misogyny and overarching mock-piety, this same denuciation appears not only still relevant, but by the implacably un-changing modus-operandi of the Catholic Church, also looks set to be paired with ANOTHER well-known admonition, namely: “Depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. For I know you not…”
I’m not sure what the the point of the question is: trust the Catholic church with education? Sure! Trust anyone in the education system (other than the parents) with absolute authourity and power over children? Duh, of course not.
I’m an Anglican, and have been tecahing in Roman catholic school for years. The sexual undercurrent of boarding schools is always very strong: the boys espescailly love to experiemnt. And there are a good number of students who seek to entice the teachers, too.
Obviously, a teacher mustn’t ever respond to advances, nor initiate them, but my point is: this has nothing to do with Catholicity. Yes, the scandal is greater, bot that priests would “do this” and that naive -nay, stupid- parents so worship the heirarchy that they dont pay attention to what’s going on in the schools. In my school, when we tell a parent about “inappropriate behaviour” by a student, they won’t believe it.
Parents: face the facts.
Teachers: stick to teaching.
Catholic-bashers: get a life
My father, who went to the best schools himself sent me to be educated by 18 year old Irish Catholic nuns. Being child of a mixed marriage I did not have an easy time. One nun decided to teach me how to spell ‘beautiful. by forcing me over the day to say I could see red gnome called “Red Cap” who had come t punish me.
I spent three hours standing on top of my desk while the whole class waited. nobody was allowed to leave the room until I saw the invisible being which sister and the rest of the class could see and I was the only one who could not!
It was at this moment I knew there was no invisible being of any kind. To my sadness I gave in as many were wetting themselves and crying in shame.
This nun continued in this vain for years until I was rescued by my father at the age of 12.
Is this a way to educate children? Every child deserves a secular education!
My spelling has never recovered!
I would not!. I live in Canada and the Federal and Provincial governments and the catholic and protestant churches are paying out billions for sexual abuse of our regional schools from the 1920s to the 1970s where young native children were abused sexually and pyscologically. The native children were brainwashed to leave their traditions and forced to learn christianity. Its time organized religions disappeared.
Any priest/bishop/cardinal who has been convicted of sexually abusing anyone should do hard time in jail, not the catholic church opening up the vaults and paying off the victims with collection plate money. Any priest/bishop/cardinal who was or is aware of any priest sexually abusing a child and did nothing or is doing nothing should be charged with aiding and abetting a crime. I am an ex catholic and whats going on in Ireland is going on around the world within the catholic church. The only reason the pope and cardinals are apologizing is because they GOT CAUGHT!
I have a question about this program. Why was there no mention of the abuse Indian, Inuit, and Metis children suffered in Canadian residential schools at the hands of their primarily Catholic but also Anglican and United Church “supervisors”?