The Pope has said that saving humanity from homosexuality is just as important as saving the rainforest. He said blurring the distinction between male and female roles could lead to the “self-destruction” of the human race. Not surprisingly, the pope’s comments have been criticised by gay christian groups. But is the pope just voicing what many Christians around the world also believe? Or does this just show how hopelessly out of touch the leader of the Catholic church is?
In California, the issue of gay marriage has become a battleground of ideas , with many Christians campaigning tirelessly for a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage, leaving many gay couples in uncertainty over their marital status. A book about gay penguins aimed at children was the most ‘challenged’ book in the US this year. Do you share the pope’s concerns or do you think he is out of touch with the rest of the world?
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I feel far more at risk from over-population than I do from homosexuals. Isn’t it successive Popes who have ruled against birth control…over and over? The pope is not just out of touch…he’s DANGEROUSLY out of touch.
I find it very disturbing that the pope claims a morale high-ground over this kind of issues. What I do with my life should be my business as long as I don’t harm other people with it. I do not wish to be forced by religious people to go by their rules although they feel really happy living the life they do, just as I don’t force them to adopt my standards.
Does the world need to be saved from religions imposing their specific belief structures on the world’s population?
Homosexuality would only threaten the survival species if the vast majority of us were gay. But they aren’t, and the small minority of homosexauls and bisexuals don’t represent a threat to the survival of the species in anyway.
The constant terrorist threat, global warming, over population, lack of food and clean water, poverty, lack of education, womens rights and diesease are all issues which bring a lot of human suffering. These are the things the pope should be focusing on.
Homosexuality is disease according to some psycologist, but honestly I do not understand the actual reason for it. However boys and girs go throgh this phase and get over it sooner than later. It is not known as to why laws shold be passed leaglising homosexual Marriages.Marriages between man and women is legalised to ensure that children by marriages do not suffer financially, in the event of a Divorce . If men and women wants to be homosexuals or lesbians let them remain so wihout any hindrance by law or society. But legalising it ,serves no purpose ,other than to encourage such unnatural relationship.
“Marriages are Made in Heaven and it should not be Hell on Earth’
I think that the Pope’s comment’s, apart from the fact that they are terribly discriminatory, stupid and anachronic, are very dangerous. Homosexuals have always been around since time immemorial. Including (although little known or reported) in the Muslim world.
My feeling is that Humanity after having combated secular fascism during the 20th century is now increasingly facing the terrible danger of religious obscurantist extremism… just another face of the same fascism we (humans) all abhor.
A world without the colourful Elthon Johns, Freddie Mercuries, Christian Diors, Oscar Wilds? No thanks.
I tend to think that if anything, the world needs to be saved from religion, which is a tool used by dumb bigots to make their dumb ideas appear more legitimate and justifiable than those ideas are.
And for some dumb reason, society puts religious ideas into the category of things we must be question, no matter how absurd.
Religion legitimizes a great deal that is just dumb monkey logic. “You different, so you must be bad” et cetera.
The psycologist say that homo sexuality is a disease. I do not really understand it.Homosexuality is phase which boys and girls go through and get over it sooner than later,If a person wants to be a homosexual/lesbian let them be so, but legalising it only encourages such acts. Marraiges between men and women are legalised to ensure that children do not suffer in the event of a Divorce, but why homasexual/lesbian marriages?.
I will not be surprised if humans wants to have unnatural relationship with animals and ask for legal sanction.
‘MARRIAGES ARE MADE IN HEAVEN AND IT SHOULD NOT BE HELLON EARTH’
The world needs to be saved from organized religions long before it will ever need to be saved from homosexuality.
I’m currently reading, “Homosexuality and Civilization” which is a really fascinating book. I’ve just been reading that homosexuality was associated with valor, honor, and masculinity in the ancient world; Judaism was violently opposed to homosexuality probably to preserve their tribe/culture, and it just happened to be the seed (no pun intended) for Christianity…though, I wonder why Christians nowadays will take literally the violent laws against homosexuality when they disregard the laws on what to eat, how to dress, etc.
I dont know if having participated in WHYS prevents me from saying this publicly but I am just staggered and ashamed (not as a Christian- which I’m not- but as a person with some dear gay friends) that the Pope can be so small-minded as to pick on homosexuality, of all things, at Christmas, when he should be talking about war, poverty, famine and conflict. These are the 4 horsemen of the real apocalypse that are killing people in large numbers as we speak. But no, when JC’s anniversary comes round, God’s self-proclaimed vice regent on earth has to focus on what gay men do to each other in private. It should be no surprise of course, coming from an Ex Hitler Youth member now happily enconced at the top of the tree in the Catholic Church. But I was still stunned – not by the narrow-mindedness (which one expects) but by the sheer stupidity and appalling timing. There is only one possible benefit- that it confirms many waverers the world over in their unbelief, since it demonstrates so brilliantly the evil of established religion.
The world needs to be saved from bigotry and ignorance…
I keep seeing my remarks are “awaiting moderation”! I really dont know how to moderate my comments any further, without feeling I am being censored. Having immoderately insulted a large proportion of the human race, (including a gay friend of mine who has just gone back home to Italy to see his fmauily for Christmas) could it be that the Catholic Church is a litle over sensitive to the outrage it inevitably provokes by these barmy bigoted outbursts? The world needs saving from the Pope and all his immoderate works.
I think the world needs saved from homo sapiens. Cult leaders and religious extremist, such as the pope, need to be taken with a grain of salt. “The World” has offered its solution to sexual deviance. (By that i mean sexual activities that vary away from purpose of procreating.) The world’s solution is STD’s. We don’t need an army of Catholics to help out. You don’t live to be tens of billions of years old with out an understanding of how to maintain your health in a symbiotic and patient approach.
Homosexuality is boring.
The world needs to be saved from a large speeding asteroid that is racing toward us. the world needs to be saved from the killer octopus that stalks the Bermuda triangle. The world needs to be saved from invading aliens that hide among us.
Yeah, I think all of those seem really absurd too!
That statement is one of the most intolerant public statements I have ever heard. If the pope had said that on radio or had a show on A&E he would have been cancelled…
It’s a tenant of the religion. It would be like people asking christians to stop accepting Jesus as the Son of God because you don’t think he really was. If you don’t agree with the religion, don’t be a member of it.
The world needs to be saved from senile ex-Hitler-Youth Catholic bigots.
The Bible advises against homosexuality, as well as against murder, envy, stealing, lying, taking God’s name in vain, being selfish, being angry, and a lot of other things. For our benefit, actually.
BUT:
1. The Catholic church makes homosexuality one of its MAIN issues. And it shouldn’t be. The main issue is belief, and everything else is secondary. Why doesn’t the Pope condemn people with a temper?
2. The Bible is there to instruct the individual. It’s not a weapon for criticising others. This is made very clear in the Bible itself.
3. I find it odd that Catholics listen to the Bible in Latin rather than reading it for themselves, and listening to what the Pope (a regular human) says.
I think the Catholic church should remove the very big log from its own eye, before it tries to remove the speck from everyone else’s.
I think the Pope should get his own house in order before making such comments, There are two current topics that undermine his authority on this subject:
– Marriage for Catholic Priests
– Priests that molest.
He should select a different topic to preach on.
I agree with Bob ,the pope seems to be dangerously out of touch.but not the first time i guess.
It all boils down to a person being liberal or conservative. Live let live is what makes life easier.
Change is something people cannot accept easily i guess.
As for Marriages among homosexual people ,,,,,If marriages are made in heaven how do we know this pair-up was not made in Heaven.
If we believe in the concept of GOD then we accept things as they are.If god wanted someone to be homosexual then let it be.
By refusing to accept gods creation are we going against god ? hmmm food for thought.
The pope hit the nail right on the head. If the parents of those homosexuals behaved like them would they be born to promote homosexuality.
@ Kelly:
I wonder why Christians nowadays will take literally the violent laws against homosexuality when they disregard the laws on what to eat, how to dress, etc.
Convenience and self-serving interests. It’s easier to hate on gays when your not gay because you don’t have to change your ways to live in accordance with ‘God’s Word’…
Now taking care of the environment (‘God’s creation’), taking care of your body, caring about those around you, living a moral and spiritual life… Now that takes hard work! And, well, its easier to pick and choose your battles…. The ones which take the least amount of effort on your part to put into practice.
These comments are coming from a former child Nazi party member who currently oversees the largest religious cult in history. This man cannot even get the so called shepherds of the Catholic cult , the priests, to keep from performing homo sexual acts against the most innocent, the children in their respective parishes.
For nearly one hundred years, these Catholics moved the deviants around to hide them again once discovered. It took hundreds of victims to come forward before the world forced the Vatican to admit these heinous crimes against humanity. And yet, there are no doubt countless victims who may never see justice served for what was done to them.
May all the hypocritical leaders of this cult be purged from this earth.
I think homosexuals need to be saved from the world!
Maybe it is a bit dull being one, but I wouldn’t know.
Dangerously out of touch? Try just dangerous! Homosexuals need to be saved from the Catholic Church, from organized religion. As though there wasn’t enough suffering in the world to capture a church leader’s attention, starting in his own pedophiliac backyard, this Pope has done the classic ‘Look, a puppy!’ move by denouncing homosexuals. Thinking Catholics should close and lock their checkbooks and pray at home until His Holiness comes to His senses.
Lydia Nayo
Oakland, CA.
Hi everyone! 😀
I study the Bible, which really shows how incorrect homosexualism and any other unnatural sexual practice are. There’s no ambiguity in this book, as some people ridiculously pretend [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/3205727.stm].
What I don’t agree with is the way the Pope copes with the topic; it’s like saying that gays are a threat to humanity. They aren’t!
I believe that homosexualism must be avoided becuase God created us with a design that responds to his specific will, and our own pride and desire shouldn’t lead us to change the order of nature and God’s will. That’s all and enough.
And this point of view doesn’t involve intolerance against gay people, which is another tendency with no justification at all.
Cheers! 🙂
Hi WHYSers & Ros!
Thanks for the BIG UPs ‘Jamaica Style!’ Good vibrations! Though, I half expected to see (based in the message in my box, yesterday) some of the lesser known Reggae/ Dancehall acts giving a Christmas ‘Shout Out’ from in these parts, for the Season. The Wailers and the Marijuana smoking Bob are fairly standard when people think about Jamaica! Still, a BIG UP is always a good thing! So, mek wi work wid it! LOL!
That being said, let me turn attentions to the Pope’s remarks, above. As a Catholic, myself, I am a little conflicted about my response, as I do not share the Pontif’s position in the wider sense of equating sexuality with the destruction of the rainforests, for instance, as might also be inferred from these remarks.
The implied question of intent suggested here is flawed, not so much because His Holiness is not a learned man but because he seems to have substituted some of this learning for a sort general prescriptive right, at the level of the body. All bodies, according to his thesis, serve one purpose, in other words.
The Pope is promoting hatred.
i think that homosexuals need to be protected from getting hurt anti-bigotted church leaders in the catholic church….
some of the catholic church molested and in some cases; rape over the years young boys and men in the care! as advisors…..
–dennis
I wonder what ever happened to, “Live and let live”, or “Judge not”?
C’mon seriously, “saved” from homosexuality? What an ignorant, out of touch, unkind thing for him to say. I guess I am more disgusted than surprised.
Aren’t these people calling themselves Christian Gay Group Confused? How can a “christian’ (follower of Christ) supports homosexuality. I think the Pope was very right and he owes no man apology. Those who are possessed by the devil should call themselves “Lucifer Gay Group” instead of Christian gay group.
As I have said on here before, I WAS BORN HOMOSEXUAL! I suppose The Pope like Hitler and others would have me put to death?
I WAS ALSO BAPTISED A CATHOLIC! As I was baptised long before I was old enough to decide for myself I claimed gross violation of my human rights and The Catholic Church revoked my membership. I am regarded as having “defected” from The Faith. At the time my friends said that made me a “deffect”?
Finally The Pope and other religious leaders ban family planning addiing to the world’s overpopulation, starvation and suffering. I try to live and let live but find as an atheist I feel more honest.
Dear BBC,
ask Pope whether this homosexuality is only sin that will destroy the world? There is injustice, corruption, mafia, killings, bad governance, AIDS, terrible diseases, hunger, global warming, stilling, etc. but no one complains… “what is in your mind falls on your lips” Pope should first caution his men “priests” for they make a good number of these so called homosexuals… the world should learn to be serious and care and mind what is important to all… one is born homosexual… is not a disease… doesn’t mean these people who may be our parents, brothers, relatives, friends, neigbhours should be killed or sent out from the church… if God who created them loves them why should we worry so much?
The poor Holy Father, he preaches the truth, primarily to Catholics but not only to Catholics, and is abused. He is a brilliant man, with the charism of the Holy Spirit, speaking within the Tradition of the Catholic Church, and is criticized. Well, what can one say? There’s just not time to educate people about Catholic doctrine, which is life giving, and they are hostile to it anyway, and will not listen or discuss. He calls everyone to a correct use of human sexuality. Repent, repent.
What people need to understand is that homosexuality isn’t new. It’s always been around. Why? Precisely because of genetic variation and biology. To be able to adapt and survive, the human species has always produced a variety of sexual behaviors. Some of them our society abhors, some it accepts. But to have gotten this far we HAD to vary and deviate, even if some of those behaviors were genetic dead ends. (And, incidentally, transsexuals get plenty of hetero sex action and some procreate. How about the “man” who’s now pregnant again, eh?)
So what The Pope is recommending is something just short of genetic cleansing. Let’s cleanse our gene pool of these “deviants” to save the human race.
Christianity in its many organized flavors is, as ever, a totally mixed up, contradictory load of poo, The Pope included. I wish people would drop this religious nonsense and embrace true love and compassion for their fellow human beings rather than this contradictory, conditional, punishing bunk. It makes me sick.
What must change in the Roman Catholism.> the assumption of BVM > The productions of saints > moralising on the divines behalf. > if gays are unnatural , so is celibacy .
Gays are born not by choice . Celibacy is a force onto priests. How many God fearing children would have been procreated by married priests.
Remember it is the will of God.
Hi! 🙂
@ Lei, Cambridge:
I couldn’t agree more with you. Your words are a very sensible point of view, as they keep in mind the Bible, not the words from the Church, as the main source for guiding our lives, enriching our faith and beliefs, rather than just doing things ‘because the Church says…’
I think today they should concentrate on more serious issues, and in a practical way. They should go further than condemning: a sensitive, friendly, practical but strong hand is needed now more than ever, and the Church is forgetting that.
Homosexuality is an issue to solve, but homosexuals are not a problem. If the idea is to reason with them about their behaviour, the Pope’s words are not the best alternative.
Cheers!
Hi gang ! :-)… According to Christianity, having sex with someone who’s not your husband or wife or having sex before marriage is forbidden, so why didn’t the Pope preach against that too ?! With my love… Yours forever, Lubna in Baghdad…
Where, oh where, is the tolerance… from the posters?
Homosexuality is an abomination before GOD and man.
I think that the whole World needs to be cleared of the mess.How can a man be making love to a fellow man and vice versa?It is quite unheard of in the olden days,but now it is common in the society.
All around the globe,there should be a serious campaign against this bug that is trying to turn the world to another thing altogether.Some men nowadays open their ears,plait hairs etc just like women which ignites the anger of GOD, even against the entire human race that allow them to exist on earth freely.
The Pope spoke like a MAN OF THE MOST HIGH and shold be hearkened to wtih all seriousness.With al hands on deck,the issue of homosexuality in our society will become a thing of the past.
Sir Mysticoh.
@ Jeff Burke, Canada
But SHOULD we be tolerant of bigoted, discriminatory….intolerant….views like the pope has expressed? Sometimes it’s necessary to speak up for the oppressed rather than tolerate the oppressor…whatever the reason for their views.
Gilbert –
Homosexuality “quite unheard of in the olden days”? Homosexuality has been around as long as sex. It’s been recorded as far back as ancient Greece – read the Iliad; Achilles and Patroclus were lovers, which is why Achilles flew into such a rage when Paris killed him. The Old Testament speaks against it, which means it was around when the books were written thousands of years before Christ. Denying homosexuality is denying parts of ourselves.
To even frame the “debate” in these terms is offensive. What’s next? A debate about the “solution,” which is 1) to eradicate the gays, or b) throw us all in jail? This is not responsible journalism in any way.
@ dwight
“The World” has offered its solution to sexual deviance. (By that i mean sexual activities that vary away from purpose of procreating.) The world’s solution is STD’s.
Does that mean that every person with STD’s is a sexual deviant? Is homosexuality truly deviant behavior, to begin with?
The continued existence of global homophobia, is unfathomable. Fear of the unknown and inability to accept the centuries old human propensity toward homosexuality stunts our growth as a species.
The pope is showing the same kind of ignorance that allowed thousands of children to be molested by priests, while the church railed against “sexual deviance” and shuffled its xenophobic feet.
Homosexuality is NOT deviant. It could save the world from overpopulation. Look at what procreation has gotten us into with too many mouths to feed and not enough to go around. Save us from what?
I think this is a very heavy handed translation of the Pope’s words, which were a challenge to all of us to live a life free of sexual wandering. There is a challenge regarding marriage, as a lifetime commitment to someone of the opposite sex. His comments address adultry, pornography, same sex marriage and other sexual issues.
Personally, I spent 2 years living in the same sex community. I had a partner, and was active in the “rights” movement. My experience in that environment showed me that I had gone in the wrong direction, looking for answers to the problems of life. For many years I have been clear of sex, and of its substitues. Recently, people have been asking me to share my experience, so I posted it here.
http://www.GayTestimony.com
So far it’s been a very good life, free of the dogma’s of the same sex community.
David
Could someone explain this concept to me? How is it possible that homosexuality will end up causing the end of humanity as we know it? Is it because of the fear that everyone will become a homosexual, therefore people will not have children anymore? Because that in an of itself is an extreme that won’t happen. There are too few homosexual people in the world in comparison to heterosexual people for this to be a reasonable fear. Is it because it will lead to the moral decay of our children? Once again, how, considering that there are many nations were homosexual people are KILLED for just being who they are. So many homosexual people are forced to spend their lives passing for heterosexual, and in doing so, they appear as anyone else, no more morally corrupt than their neighbors. In fact, children are in more danger from moral decay by watching t.v., or listening to music, or reading, than from seeing a homosexual on the street minding their business. Especially in this age there sexuality, drugs, and crime pervade all types of media. So how? My mind can’t figure this fear out.
Sexual activity, performed in private by consenting adults, is nobody’s business but their own.
Full stop.
Donnamarie in Switzerland
@ Kenny in Florida – your comment:
“The world needs to be saved from organized religions long before it will ever need to be saved from homosexuality”
is right on.
Donnamarie in Switzerland
@ Jeff Burke:
Apparently, you have not been reading all the posts here.
I know this may sound really flippant, however, I find this over obsession with peoples’ sex lives a little much! Frankly, I do not care who people are sleeping with, so long as they are, hopefully, acting responsibly.
Why in tarnations is this a matter for public/ political discussion? I have other, more critical issues with which to grapple than a question of one’s sex drive!
@ Gilbert,
You apparently need a history lesson. Even the Soddom and Gomorrah story was, at one level, in refrence to this issue. This is not a preoccupation of the present. Sexual desire transcends all time and even space.
Inherrent in the logic of the Pope’s address, as it is reported, is the sense in which all desire must be directed towards procreative uses. What is doubtful, however, is whether his challenging of gender theory changes the fact that not all people wish to either have kids, get married or even have sex (that is, outside of a priestly vocation!). It is entirely possible to use our bodies as we so choose – no disrespect to the Faith!
Oh gosh, he’s just promoting what he feels is right. You can’t blame people for not wanting the continuation of the KKK, Nambla, and AlQuida either.
-Anthony, LA, CA
Child Rape Claims Several Lives Each Day in Iran
If the Pope wants to go about it in a sensible way, why not. First eradicate child assault and male rape.
Homosexuals are a danger to themselves, not the public. They have no legal rights or protection. Assault, mass rape, and murder of homosexuals are on the increase, in and out of prison. They are exposed to AIDS through abuse or use of contaminated hypodermic needle.
I saw one poor lad whose head had been shaved, and who was forced to sit in the women’s section of the bus last week.
The Human Rights Office in Tehran was raided and shut recently. The authorities offered some lame excuse and evicted Iran’s Peace Laureate Shirin Ebadi from her premises.
The pope wants to save us from homosexuality? Why? It isn’t dangerous, so we don’t have to be saved from it. We have to save the rainforests, because we can’t live without the oxigen it produces. But homosexual people don’t make our lives dangerous. In my opinion, the pope is out of touch and intolerant. Nobody should force the gay to become heterosexuel.
I found that quote from Lynn Lavner (an American Jewish comedian and lesbian, who’s known for her political “incorrectness”) which I think is interesting given the context:
“The Bible contains six admonishments to homosexuals and 362 admonishments to heterosexuals. That doesn’t mean that God doesn’t love heterosexuals. It’s just that they need more supervision.”
@ Donnamarie
What about if they consent to be killed and eaten, like what happened in Germany? People can consent to some pretty messed up things, because there are some very disturbed people out there.
Homosexuals need to be saved from christian bigotry. The Pope, as history has shown, will always oppose progress and anything that diminish his power.
The world is full of diversities which makes it hard to describe what’s right & what’s wrong in general.Things whick may seem to be right to some people for some reason might look wrong to someother for the very same reason.Hence I think ‘what’s right & what’s wrong’ should be left to every person.
Moreover if somebody is trying to experiment with new things & they feel better by doing so,the society should’nt have a problem untill the act is causing any serious hazards.
The Pope has gone over the edge on this issue. The first post, from Bob from Queensland, hits it on the head: humanity is in more danger from overpopulation than it is from homosexuality. The recipe is simple: over-reproduce beyond the planet’s carrying capacity, have all-out wars over increasingly scarce resources using modern weaponry that devestates ecosystems even more, and voila… de-evolved societies in which human life becomes the Hobbesian state of nature: nasty, brutish and short.
I sometimes wonder if homosexuality is a natural response to over-population, although I have no proof. In any case, it appears quite clear that homosexuality occurs naturally in humans and other species. It is also quite clear that having homosexuals around doesn’t make straight people gay. I’ve had numerous homosexual friends, and I’ve remained completely, perhaps obsessively, focused on the ladies. And I’m doing my part to ensure the survival of the species!
Point is, the Pope is not only a bigot, the combination of his teachings on birth control and (possibly) homosexuality are empirically counter-productive to the good health of humanity. To further argue that homosexuality is as important an issue as threats to the global ecosystem (e.g. rainforests) that allows humans to thrive on this planet is downright insane. If anybody is going to bring about the destruction of humanity it’ll be those that think like the Pope. They’ll waste human energy fighting over what should be a complete non-issue, rather than addressing real problems such as how people in Brazil can make a decent living without destroying the rainforest. (To that end, a little more contraception + homosexuality would probably be helpful 🙂 )
Honestly, it just shows how out of touch and inconsequential the Pope and religion in general are with the actual living and breathing world.
To catholics, the majority allready feel that homosexuality is wrong and agree with the Pope. For non-catholics, nobody cares what the Pope says.
Its like Chavez preaching about the evils of the USA. If you allready agree with him, then you like what he says. If you don’t agree with him, its just so much hot air blowing in the wind.
@ gilbert
” Homosexuality is an abomination before GOD and man.
With al hands on deck, the issue of homosexuality in our society will become a thing of the past.”
All hands on what? Man was homosexual long before they wrote the book you seem to be reading from. Your comments are a typical example of the hate and fear rhetoric homosexuals endure regularly. Zealotry is the true abomination.
We’d all be far better off without all these blind and narrow-minded men everywhere in the world who are convinced that they, and only they, held the One Truth (which makes quite a great number of One Truths, doesn’t it ?)
Whew, that was close! For a while there I was afraid we were going to have to talk about something that is actually relevant to the 21st century.
But just so we’re on the same page here – you DO know why the Dark Ages were called that, right?
Attending Catholic schools while growing up, the question of how one knew they were being called to the Priesthood or Convent often came up. We were told we would “just know,” and one sign would be that we would not be drawn to “things of the world” including members of the opposite sex.
I’ve always wondered how many young men & women, blessed with hormonal balances which didn’t produce fervent teenage heterosexual attractions, concluded that they were being called by Christ, and became some of the strangely socialized priests & nuns I encountered during my grade school and high school years.
We should not equate homosexuality with pedophilia, because they are two very different inclinations. And if homosexuality is a disease, then that may just be a result of the dis-ease a person feels when their God-given physiology dictates one thing, and the man-written bible dictates another.
In my opinion, he is definetely out of touch with reality. Homosexuality only affects others when the individual is “in the closet” and leads a double life. Otherwise, it is nobody business if someone is homosexual or heterosexual.
The head of the Church should rethink his priorities. I live in a country where the majority is Catholic. We have problems that really are taking a tool in our lives (corruption, drug/alcohol addiction, prostitution, child abuse, poverty, consumerism, family violence, violence against women, drug related violence, etc.) and I don´t see strong statements against these issues.
There is truth in bigotry. What is the truth? Why are the genders mixed up so much today. More hermadorphites at birth that are surgically formed into one or the other gender. More mentally and emotionally confused not knowing if I”m a man or woman. Why is this? What is the truth in our situations.
My hypothesis for which numerous relationships have been reported is that endocrine disrupting chemicals are the blame. Beyond genetics these EDC’s lurk, causing nuances in the physque to mutations in sex organs.
Faith is always a deterent to knowledge. God put us here to perceive, not to believe in nonsense.
Totally agree with Bob In Queensland. There are 6 BILLION people on earth. I’ve seen estimates there will be NINE billion by mid century. The human race is not under any threat from homosexuality, quite the opposite, we should be encouraging it as a means of birth control. It’s patently obvious to anyone with a brain cell that the earth can’t support that many people. Yet we go on breeding and breeding and breeding, with the full support of the church.
Why oh why in the 21st century do we still give so much air space and publicity to these out of touch, befuddled old men, popes, immams, rabbis etc. No I’m not homosexual, I’m boringly hetero with 2 kids, but I’m really, really sick of religion. (Went to Catholic school for 4 years so I know quite a lot about it too.) I don’t recall so much airspace being given to religion when I was a kid 50 years ago. We are going backwards not forwards.
I tend to think that if anything, the world needs to be saved from religion, which is a tool used by dumb people to make their dumb ideas appear legitimate and less dumb than those ideas are.
And for some reason, society puts religious ideas into the category of things we must never question, no matter how absurd.
Religion legitimizes a great deal that is just dumb monkey logic. “You different, so you must be bad”.
@ Archibald,
I wondered who was going to apply emotional constraints to a scientific statement. It is kind of like saying, “is everyone who dies of starvation, lazy and unwilling to do what it takes to get food.” Unfortunately nature is not emotionally discriminate. It addresses a problem with a wide net. Diseases such as AIDS, syphilis, Gonorrhea, HPV, and the like are all attempts to reduce the unsustainable growth of the population. To explain nature’s use of natural selection to target weaker behaviors world in a way that wouldn’t offend peoples emotions would take more text the WHYS would allow.
However, the word “Deviance” is defined as activities outside that considered normal. Since most people consider promiscuous, homosexual, and/ or multiple wives to be outside the norm, yes everybody who has an STD was involved in “deviant” behavior. Many were unaware of their involvement in a situation where their partner had multiple partners. However, the definition still sticks. I once got a speeding ticket after changing the profile of my car tires. The speedometer said I was doing the legal speed. The radar said otherwise. I was still guilty of speeding. I was still susceptible to all of the adverse affects of speeding, even though I was unaware. I was a “transportation deviant”.
Let us pray!
By the way, contrary to the BBC headline on this story, it isn’t just ‘gay groups’ or ‘gay activists’ who are upset at the pope’s remarks. It’s ‘regular’ hetero people with some humanity and grey matter too.
The Pope represents the ‘old guard’ of western religion. He is representative of the narrow minded and out of touch elderly men who presently control the catholic church. His statements are a reflection of an idioligy that still believes that woman are the servants of men and that contraception is wrong because it captures the seed of god. If there is a god he created homosexuals too and I am sure he loves all decent people equally. My father once told me that it “does not matter who you are or what you are as long as you are a decent person and what you do does not harm another person”. The refusal of the catholic church to embrace and endorse contraception has no doubt caused the deaths of tens of thousands of people from AIDS around the world and particularly in Africa. The world needs to be saved from the heirachy of the catholic church and in particular Karl Ratzinger (a.k.a. Pope Benedict).
The question should not be whether the world should be saved from homosexuality but whether the world should be saved from the Catholic church.
Of all the issues in the world that the church could make an issue of and put their weight behind to do dome good they chose an issue such as this that attacks people for their beleifs. Just another example of the church cementing their irrelevence in this world.
I live in San Francisco, California possibly the most homosexual town in the world. It has been an eye opener and I can now honestly say that I was much more homo-phobic before living here. When you are around something more it becomes real and lives outside your stereotypes and prejustices.
I have worked with many gay men and women now since living here and they have a unique perspective and rare outlook at life.
Simply said, being gay simply adds more diversity to life and makes it more interesting. Families in SF are forced to teach and show their kids here what homosexuality is at a young age and that decreases the chance for hatred towards gays. And it does not increase their decsion to be gay, but makes it okay for kids ot kow they will have a place in life, if they do not follow the main-stream idealogy.
Visit SF’s Castro neighborhood and you will feel the open self-expression of a people now living great outside the “closet”. Ohh and go see “MIlk”.
There will be no environment left if we don’t get our numbers under control.
The pope and bishops are all criminals and should be prosecuted for the silence about the sexual predation of children around the world.
How dare he speak out to condemn others.
This reminds me that the Nazi belt buckles read “Gott Mit Uns”. Hate and religion are two peas in the same pod.
Now we have the Nazi Pope.
I think the Pope should check his own sexuality. He seems way too threatened by the 10% or so homosexuals.
OK that guy Alan from Florida is CONFUSED… clearly he was never actually gay… probably bi at the very very most. I believe strongly that homosexuality is genetic, NOT a choice. In my opinion anyone who says that it is a choice is delusional.
This discussion can go on forever and people will always feel hurt. If what the Pope says does not suit you then so be it, most people prefer to be told what they would like to hear or better still interpret the Bible to suit themselves as a result when they hear anything different they get uncomfortable.
What did Vladimir Luxuria say? ‘i’m a transgender person someone who was born as male and has a spiritual and female soul’
Execuse me! i’m sorry if you have this in your head then you are really messed up as there is nothing spiritual about that. Indirectly you are saying God who created you made a mistake or better still did not do a good job right? you are soooo wrong! Wake up, clear your head and think straight!
If you are someone with a very low moral standard then complain all you want but the Pope has to say what needs to be said, Faith is not fashion and does not need to follow any trend, it is clear and precise.
I’m not a Catholic but i strongly believe the Pope is right about what he said.
This is the same church that banished it’s greatest fan because he dared suggest the earth was not the center of the universe. They were still deriding him up until 1990 and finally in *2000* apologized for being wrong.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair
Now that said, the church should feel free to be as vindictive, ignorant and hateful as it desires and people should be allowed to make the choice to follow that path. In no way should the law of the land, which is meant to govern all including those who find the position of the church and its followers abhorrent, tithe or reflect this position.
Marriage is a word defined in a religious context. If there are governmental regulations to be brought up around the coupling of persons, it should in no way reflect or reconstruct every religion’s individual definition of the word.
If same sex couples want to get married, US state law and US federal already allow for it. The people blocking it are blocking the will of the constitution.
@Tom
That you don’t agree with him, doesn’t make him a Nazi. It’s standard catholic doctrine to be anti homosexual lifestyle. Religion isn’t PC, and it doesn’t change depending upon what’s popular during any given era.
That the Pope is confused about homosexuality is fine (he is in the business of presumed celibacy) but he’s lost it when he equates it with saving the rainforest.
Consider this: China has actually highlighted the fact that her one child policy has significantly contributed to mitigating climate change! If one were to take that logic further, since most gay people choose not to procreate, their contribution to protecting the planet goes further.
The Pope has in one stroke reframed Catholicism as primitive and endorsed environmentalism as the religion of the 21st century.
@ “Homosexuality is an abomination before GOD and man”
Yea, but according to Leviticus so is eating Shrimp and Lobster.
-Anthony, LA, CA
Have I got this right. The Pontiff is worried about humanity wiping itself out by failing to procreate. The same organisation also elevates the lifestyle choice of celebacy. The Catholic church seems very confused.
Hi Tom D Ford, I think you are right about us having a Naizi pope. He was a boy in “Hitler’s Youth”. The Nazi’s were mostly Catholic too.
Humanity (and the survival of other living creatures) needs to be saved from over-population. What better way than homosexuality/lesbian way of life?
@ Steve- he actually was(is?) a Nazi sympathizer
If the Pope and Catholics must protect us, they should stop overpopulating the world in an attempt to dominate and extend their religion and beliefs. Certainly, it’s not about gays or gay marriage, it is about too many Catholics.
World have your say-
Why do you censor my comments???
World have your say
If you do not allow people to speak here on your blog how can you question someone like the pope that seeks to silence those that do not agree with him/?
I worry for the people who decide to change thier sexual orientation only for fear of sin. The man who spoke that he was saved from homosexuality and has now been married for 11 years with children, how long can it last. I don’t believe it’s choice, I believe it to be biological, how long will the marriage last? What happens to the children then? I think it would be much worse to have mom or dad leave because they realized they were living a lie than to be raised by a loving gay couple. The world should be saved from the Catholic church and from the closed mind of the silent masses. We are free to be who we need to be.
OF COURSE the Pope’s comments are interpreted, by any rational person who knows anything about Catholic dogma, as being anti-homosexual.
P.S. Ros, your moderation, especially with the Cardinal, is outstanding. Merci.
why should we look to a stone-age mythology for morality?
do you think the bi-sexual bonobos care what this sad man thinks of their frolicking?
no-one has the right to tell you what sex is correct
fred
den haag
holland
Your trying to engineer the news – I wonder God thinks of you and BBC.
Please review the 10 Commandments!
I just wanted to comment about the argument that what Pope said and what he meant:
Maybe Pope did not exactly say that but this is the sick way religion talks! religion is not sience, they don’t define things exactly and don’t talk about things clearly, so when they get trapped in a situation they, or people in their side, simply deny what they have said, or announce another way to interpret the text!
that’s just the way it’s been.
the fact is that Pope meant what he said, if not he should come out and explain what exactly he meant and why! clearly!
thanks,
Payam
The pope is a theologian whose message should be respected and taken as from God! The Bible talks about procreation and not homosexuality!!
Transsexual behaviour and heterosexual relations are one very strange behaviours which i think has got some mental and pre-mature development of the human mind!
Ros,
You are one of the best and most fair host I have ever heard. But in this case you are wrong. What if the headline had said, “Pope affirms male role as dominate in leadership in the catholic church.” and then put that next to the context of the discussed statement? IT could easilly be just as accurate. This feels like a forced contraversy. Much like something FOX would do.
Your moderator today seems to have an agenda to push — this is unusual for WHYS, which normally allows people to freely express their opinions.
Denying the link between what the Pope has said and homosexuality is in fact a very weak attitude. Even he did not mention the word homosexuality explicitly but the implication very clear for any one who is familiar with the topic and has some courage and self-confidence.
The gentleman who has ‘reformed’ his homosexuality implies that there is a group of gays who want him back, as if being gay is some kind of cult. As an openly gay male, I wish him all the happiness in the world with his family. I also would hope that the pope would not divide people during the holiday season.
Let’s not argue over semantics here… the Church’s position on homosexuality is very clear and the Pope’s comments refering to preserving male/female gender roles clearly applies to homosexuals even if he didn’t say the words. What worries me most is the extreme wording… that not preserving these roles will destroy the world… could he at least say how?!
It seems many religious people only have children to use as fodder in a battle of faiths in order to populate the world with Catholics, Muslims, Jews, etc. This is why they feel threatened by homosexuality.
To the Cardinal:
The Pope has said that it is self-destructive to go against our own nature. That begs the question as to whether, for people attracted to others of the same sex, homosexuality is part of their nature. Clearly the Pope and the Church consider heteresexuality to be human nature as intended by the Creator. But for that surely does not ring true for homosexuals. The gentleman from Exodus International, by his own testimony, struggled for years against his own nature. Is the Pope being selective about which aspects of our nature it is self-destructive to go against?
Hmm, let’s see.
The Pope claims to speak for “God”.
But if “God” “speaks” through his actions and “God” created Homosexuals, logic tell us that “God” has made the Pope into a Liar, a Great Deceiver!
Therefore the Popes argument from Religion is self refuting!
QED
Gays and religious fundamentalsts alike looking for something to be offended by, please grow up! The word has enough real problems.
I agree that the pope isn’t necessary making a statement on homosexuality but something more general about gender roles. I think that this has to do with the fact that women are seeking equality.
Look at the changing demographics across the western world. The birthrate is drastically declining as more women are finding it difficult to balance work and work at home without state support or without the help from men or the church. It’s understandable that women are choosing not to have more than 1 child or none, which is flipping the demographic pyramid on it’s head. Our generation will have to support the vast number of elderly and the economy will collapse.
The pope’s statement is based on the assumption that homosexuality is a choice. This kind of thinking is based on ignorance and fear and should be addressed by simply educating the pope and his followers.
seemed like to me we could go our separate ways
Remember, the Catholic Church cooperated with the Nazis, so this is not at all surprising!
I figured that the Popes past as a young Nazi would eventually show up at some time and now it has. Let’s remember that the Nazis murdered lots of people besides Jews; they also attacked homosexuals, gypsies, and many others.
The Pope has exposed the Dark Side of Religion, the willingness and ability to organize movements of hate and divisiveness among the easily fooled and get them to attack and scapegoat defenseless minority groups.
Oh, the Irony of Evil!
Anything which is against the laws of nature is a disaster.
It may be homo-sexuality or climate change or whatever – Its not safe
until we restrain ourselves from working against nature.
We are in no danger of humanity’s population dwindling to destructively low levels because of the existence and actions of gays & lesbians. Is this what the Pope is saying? He seems to me to be deceptively unclear in his comments on Monday.
Isn’t the Church and the Pope supposed to serve the needs of believers? These needs might be controversial or difficult to understand but they still are all too human. Does the Pope know what his priests are doing? Why should the Church act in such a manipulative and insensitive way? I think that the Pope is dangerously out of touch of the moral obligations of the church in modern world. I am not a catholic but I am amazed by the lack of care to human needs and feelings and the pretention hidden behind authority and moral.
Jesus Christ spoke out against and rebuked the behavior of those around him and he was beaten and murdered for it. The pope will never fare any better even though he has the same right to freedom of speech as anyone else. The problem is that people HATE being told they are wrong. He isn’t trying to force his beliefs on anyone. He’s simply expressing his consern over this self-destructive behavior. If I saw a trend of people sitting down and stabbing themselves repeatedly, it would be my responsibility to say something.
Please note that all Christians and other religions believe that homosexuality is wrong . Medical science should research more into homosexuality.
Boston, MA.
The Pope, and all religious leaders throughout the world, should be preaching tolerance of all people and their personal activities. We need world peace and not rhetoric on who said what or what a man or a woman’s role should be. The Pope need only look inside his own church and its view on a woman’s role in the Catholic church to see the error of his words. Marriage or homosexuality is a personal choice. He lives and preaches a double standard.
Hi,
The “violent” reaction against the Pope’s comments is uncalled for. Calling for a distinction between male/female roles is no new message as we grew up with it from our homes. What is curious is the excessive interest the BBC has in SEX, HOMOSEXUALITY and ISLAM. Homosexuality will be natural the day I see the British Prime minister or American President being gay. Homosexuality is naturally anti life. If everyone is gay or lesbian the human race will go extinct.
Chika.
People honestly sound like religion is a democracy and a result of popularity contests. Fact: No major religion likes homosexuality. Because it’s a trend for there to be more social acceptance doesn’t mean the religions are going to accept it. It would be like Christians to think “hey, maybe the Jews are right, there was no Jesus”.. Not gonna happen.
essex girl
have just read your very astute comments, great idea using homosexuality as a form of birth control
indeed it’s sad that we give these bigots so much air-space
fred
den haag
holland
It is essential that the Pope highlights the stance of Catholic faith on matters of faith and morals. Nothing further need be said on the matter by catholics.
I do agree with the statements made by the Pope; the Catholic Church has always taught that we should “Love the sinner & hate the sin”…so I don’t understand why people feel that he is breeding hatred. I love homosexuals & all the other kinds of people, but I don’t like what the do. But then again, has our world ever listened to people who speak the truth???….
And to everyone who is saying that it isn’t a choice, that they’re born gay. I say this, I am naturally inclined to have sex with every attractive woman I see, but I choose not to.
Those who are defending the Pope’s statements as being about traditional roles between men and women and not homosexuality seem to be saying that it is ok for women to not be equal – as if that is a more acceptable position to take.
Any discussion about traditional roles between men and women must include the issue of homosexuality. In addition, it necessarily involves other issues of gender difference and equality.
Frankly, I’m appalled at the head of the Catholic Church from South Africa, Cardinal Napier, who thinks that the Pope’s position about “traditional gender roles” is defensible. His comments about the violence against women in South Africa is typical blame the victim. He thinks it is because women seek equality that this brings about violence against women.
@ Mel
Why would the pope or religious leaders preach for tolerance of behaviors they don’t agree with? Do you think the pope should speak out in support of abortion?
Dear homosexuals and lesbians,
I care not one whit what you do as long as it’s not to me and as long as it’s consensual. I have my own life to worry about as it is, thank you.
Have a lovely holiday!
Jane
We should not be too hung up on what the Pope has said about sexuality. The Pope has just demonstrated that he know very little about sexuality and with the concept of freedom. This is a universal theme and should be respected universally. The Pope has the right to his personal opinion and I hope the Pope can take responsibility for his comments. When you attack one group of people just because you do not like them you are playing in dangerous grounds.
I also feel that the Pope and church should speak more vigorously on global issues such as poverty, violence and global instability. They should be focusing their energy and especially their wealth on reaching out to the millions of people living in destitution. Look at poverty in Africa, the situation in Congo and many other places around the World.
What is bothering me is not the interpretation of what the Pope said, what should be is the intention of the Creator while creating us in male and female. It seems clear form the Pope’s speech that there is a purpose to serve maleness and femaleness.
Homosexuality existed for so long as an exception to the purpose of creation of male and female. yet, it existed as an isolated, unfortunate line of experience experienced by very few and remained limited. It would be unnatural to entertain exceptions equally with the rule.
Mitiku Ethiopia.
The idea of a gay gene is pseudoscience, more to do with wishful thinking than hard empiricism.
Every boy and girl is born of male and female. Therefore every individual is both male and female and more than that they are human beings regardless of which sex they prefer.
I’d like to know what the Pope says about people who are born Androgenous.
He might be talking about the birth rate in Italy?
@ dwight
Deviance is defined as, “fact or state departing from usual or accepted standards, esp. in social or sexual behavior.” This implies a subjectivity to the judgement of “normal”. As you said, there are people who have never been “deviant” in their sexual behavior, some of whom are married and never had another partner, who still contract STD’s . Some STD’s lay dormant in the body from birth, only to be triggered by unrelated afflictions in adulthood ( fatigue, exhaustion, malnutrition, stress, disease, etc.).
The speeding ticket analogy does not hold water. Yes speeding is “deviant” from the established traffic laws, no you are not a “deviant”, just because you were speeding. That is the same thinking that says, all of us sinners in the eyes of god, just because we are man and woman. Beautiful deviance?
Folks,
I do agree with the Pope. It is obvious that without procreation the human race will become extinct. a male and male union brings NO offspring and likewise a woman and woman union brings no offsrings, hence no procreation of HUMANS.
where would the human race be today without offsprings with all the wars and deseases killing us by the the millions.
Matthew
How can an organization that defends it’s own child molesters lecture the world on human sexuality? Clearly the world has moved past the Catholic church, which is not as catholic as it would like to be. Why remain stuck in the past, where a person’s sexual orientation is an excuse for violence?
On the BBC World Service Radio the Archbishop of Durban has just said (Tuesday 18:30 GMT) that he has the Italian text of the Pope’s message in front of him and that the words ‘homosexuality’, ‘gay etc’ are not mentioned.
I am shocked. It is the business of the BBC to report the Pope’s statements, and indeed the statements of other world leaders. It is not the business of the BBC to interpret them. Please let us have the original text of this message so we can judge for ourselves.
I have listened to the BBC World Service for over 40 years and regard it as the best and most reliable broadcasting service in the world, bar none. But this is the first time in all those years that I have ever felt the need to question it’s objectivity.
Your earlier speaker mentioned that there were two purposes for marriage: procreation and enjoying each other sexually….
So what about infertile couples? Should they be banned from marriage too? They have just as much chance (or less) of having kids as gay couples too…
I honestly haven’t read the Pope’s recent statements but, as a lifelong heterosexual Christian, I’ve long not understood why The Church makes such a big deal out of homosexuality at all. If you believe that the Bible does actually condemn that homosexuality is a sin (and I don’t think it ever actually does), then fine. Why do we/they treat it so differently than any other sin? “We are all born of sin”, so how are they really so different?
The story today should be that the announcer has continued to place words into the speech of the Pope that were not there. The issue here is why the media places it’s opinion above actual words and facts. It should be noted that the first two speakers clearly pointed out and quite effectively that -BBC Have Your Say- are not reporting the words of the Pope correctly but are continuing to report a false understanding of it.
Focusing in on the issue of Homosexuality instead of all the other gender issues including trans gender sex changes etc..
BBC please listen!
It is a slippery slope when the media take words and make them their own instead of what is actually said. It is a opinion not news. Clearly and sadly the BBC is wring on this.
Wow, I am a Catholic and could care less about their position concerning homosexuals, but to take someone’s words and assign meaning to them (even if the meaning is assumed) is not news = its opinion. I’m pretty disappointed with the show for cramming this down peoples throats. Especially the bullying going on by the host. Ouch
A comment about these ‘Ex-Gays’ calling in, especially the recent man talking about his experience in San Francisco – I’m disgusted when enormous generalizations are made about Gay’s as a group, and his comments about rampant drugs, abuse and such is his small world and inappropriate to claim as part of a community at large. Drugs and abuse span gender, sexual orientation, race, ethnic background and to point a finger at a specific group is inflammatory and discriminatory. The term Ex-Gay is ridiculous and very much in line with the Christian Rights’ spin on semantics – I don’t care what your church, your Pope, your pastor, your priest, your book says about me, but what the American Constitution says is that my rights are not determined by the majority and ultimately that’s where this battle will be fought in the US.
I think Homosexuality can cause no danger to mankind, but I do think tran-sexuals giving birth to children, like the one that happened last month in USA, can be a treat to mankind.
It doesn’t matter what the Catholic church has to say about homosexuality. All the Pope can say about it is what’s been written down for him over the past ~2000 years. The important statements come from the people who actually make laws. In the US the whole “definition of marriage” argument is generally specious because it is used by people who’s definition is grounded in religion. The problem is that in the US (as in many other countries) marriage is defined by the state, through laws, and not by the religion. Marriage in the US doesn’t have to involve a church of any kind–in order to get married, you just go to a courthouse and get a marriage license.
Thus, the critical definition of marriage is simply the legal one. Just as the definition of suffrage, or “a voter” has changed over time to comport with societal standards, so should the definition of marriage. There simply is no “definitional” reason why homosexuals shouldn’t be able to get married just like heterosexuals can–the definition is up to the legislators, theoretically acting on behalf of the electorate.
The Catholic Church, on the other hand, cannot change their definition of marriage. Unless the Pope is willing to claim that he’s received new instructions from God, he has no choice by to condemn homosexuality in the same way it’s been condemned by The Church since whenever this whole rigamarole got started.
I think that you made a link that was not there between women seeking equality and violence against women.
Actually, I’m not sure what it means overall about changing gender roles and the collapse of humankind.
Like I pointed out before however is that there is a major shift in demographics and a backlash of men against women who are suceeding in the workplace.
I disagree if what the pope intended was for women to go back to staying home with the children. I believe the state should support women in the workplace and punish violence and discrimination against women in a serious manner.
I don’t think “choice” has anything to do with it. I’m sure nobody chooses to be gay, but also nobody chooses to be a pedophile, yet we don’t want pedophiles to have sex with children, right? Not to equate pedophelia with homosexuality, but just because something isn’t a choice, or even is somehow “natural” doesn’t mean it necessarily should be tolerated.
Yes, gender roles ARE blurred now, compared to how it used to be even when I was a kid, and on the whole it has made people much happier. It’s certainly made all the women I know happier – if not the men. I’m a scientist, working with both male and female scientists (all hetero as far as I know, if it matters?) It used to be that science was seen as exclusively male, thereby denying women some fascinating and sometimes well paid work, and denying the world access to their creativity and excellence. Am I leading to the destruction of the world here?
What exactly in gender blurring does Benedict object to? Women earning as much as men and taking control of their lives? Women getting fed up with doing all the domestic chores (that would be me)? Men being able to admit they actually ENJOY taking care of their kids – even babies? This is really a debate about very basic personal freedom. Increasingly in the world, women are free and can run their own lives, and – whatever their sexuality – can support themselves and choose whether or not to reproduce.
That blurring of gender roles should free up both sexes (and all sexualities) to enjoy more fulfilling lives, but it also involves great responsibility and it terrifies many people. Personal freedom is a heady and powerful thing.
Those that say that homosexuality and homosexual marriage is wrong often say that the purpose of sex in marriage is for procreation. However, many heterosexual people get married or remarried after the female has gone through menopause, or the couple is unwilling or unable to produce children. If the Catholic church maintains that homosexuality is wrong, then perhaps it should also invalidate all marriages between couples unwilling to produce children.
I believe that one day we will look back at the debate over homosexuality as another dark episode of humanity, such as slavery in the USA or antisemitism. History shows us that when we inhumanize or or criminalize a group of humans, we will be judged harshly by those that come after us. All those that engage in a lifestyle that does not hurt others should be given freedom to do as they please, just as we that have been fortunate enough to be born into the mainstream group are allowed to do.
Listening to the discussions on air right now: Isn’t it SUPERsad that a man that should address an awful lot of people directly, hasn’t worked out a way of saying things in a clear and unambiguous way? He has managed to stir up a huge discussion about the way he has said whatever he had to say, in stead of focussing on what he actually wanted to say.
It is depressing.
Let alone that someone who has never ever put the bin bag out should talk about the roles of men and women in society.
Let alone that the pope is a leader of a community that consists largely of sexually frustrated men that, when their strength fails, abuse young boys that just happen to look like the boys they liked when they were young themselves.
Let alone the followers of a guy that has ran around with his 12 friends and talked about love all the time.
I think organised religion will destroy the world long before homosexuality manages to make a difference at all.
Best wishes to all.
Diederik
Amsterdam (yes, Sodom or Gommorra, take your pick)
The Netherlands
@ Moderator
You didn’t approve my messege, I’m assuming that you think that I was joking about the Shrimp and Lobster, but google “Leviticus abomination shrip lobster” and I assure you the bible says that eating shrimp and lobster is an abomination, and they say this RIGHT AFTER they say that beiing gay is an abomination.
-Anthony, LA, CA
A Pope who has totally rejected the traditional role of a male and all of his Bishops, Cardinals and Priests, who have also rejected the traditional role of males, now admits that failure to adhere to the traditional roles of men and women is dangerous to society? Finally, some wisdom from the church.
I think that this program could have done a much better job at presenting different thoughts on this topic. The Catholic church has made it obvious in this statement and in many others how they feel about the roles of men and women and homosexuality. It is not surprising that MANY people interpreted this statement to mean homosexuality.
That being said, why was there little to no representation of gay rights advocate groups or gay rights supporters? I was quite disappointed on the lack of real argument on this very touchy issue.
It would be better to give us the Pope’s words and let us judge how “anti-homosexual” they are, rather than telling us what they mean. Your interpretation tends to promote hate of Catholicism instead of a careful discussion of ideas and values — look at the hate responses you’ve received here at the blog.
I agree with Jane, except for the fact that heterosexuals should actually show open support of homosexuals, rather than simply pleading indifference (kind of sounds like the whole “Good German” thing if you’re just being indifferent). We need to speak out loudly against the dishonesty and stubborness of the Catholic church and of our fellow human beings who claim homosexuality is wrong. Any person who is physically, psychologically, and emotionally attracted to and loves another person should be allowed to openly act on that love without caring about sexual orientation. Instead of the Pope worrying about homosexuals, maybe he should worry about something like the worldwide divorce rate between heterosexual couples and the millions of broken families and orphaned children there are at this very moment.
If your comments have been censored, it means you are not being objective…!!!
unless, it is my imagination but two of my earlier comments have not been posted. why is that?
Let’s see if I can make sense of the question. Does the world need to be saved from homosexuality? I would say no! Does the world hav a problem with particular expressions of sexuality? Certainly! Is homosexuality one of these? Sure! Is it likely that we can change those attitudes, over time? Yes! With the aid of such powerful media as the BBC, CNN and others, sure!
What is absolutely unclear to me is why is it that we are so bogged down by the comments of the Pope, whether or not he actually said anything in reference to homosexuality? I am less interested in the sex of what he has said and whether there are real implications for supporting notions of inequality in terms of repudiating gender theory, specifically, and its take on ‘gender roles’, more generally.
Of greater interests still, is just how much of the (homo) sexuality discussion even chooses to acknowledge these distinctions, as well as the implications of a religious refutation of scholarship in the wider context of lived human experiences. Is it provable that a “blurring of the lines” between the genders in, inherrently, the cause for the (self) destruction of humanity?
Surely, I do not choose to argue with the Holy Father, in terms of his scholarship. However, what is in doubt, certainly in the context of the news reports, is whether this is either a proclamation of the Holy Spirit or scientific fact upon which his claims are made. If the former, then, it behooves us to hear more about this as much as if it is latter. Except, however, if the latter is the case then, the question of the legitimacy of scholarship which empirically gauges these connections need to be broadcast for greater consumption/ interogation.
A Pope who has personally avoided the traditional role of a male and all of his Bishops, Cardinals and Priests, who have also rejected the traditional role of males, now admits that failure to adhere to the traditional role of men and women is dangerous to society? Finally, some wisdom from the church.
One knows the Vatican’s views on homosexuality. No need for
elaboration there. In fact, it is refreshing to hear views spelled
out clearly and forcefully, a rarity in this goony, canting age.
I think it is time for Ros Atkins to return to well deserved obscurity.
His transparent manipulations and sensationalism, not to mention
bad manners, this listener can do without. Once upon a time
one expected rather more from the BBC. Not any longer.
In reality: The Pope Benedict should also….condemning sexual relations outside of the marriage and; not only interferring between two people who are of the same sex….
–Dennis
@David McDonald
I remember when I needed Jesus to make me someone I wasn’t so that I was no longer “burdened.” But back then, I didn’t like myself much, if you know what I mean.
And I think you do. Which makes me sad for you.
For vivid examples of societies that emphasize male/female distinctions the pope can look to Taleban Afghanistan or Wahabi Saudi Arabia. Very inspiring indeed.
As a public demonstration of his commitment to resist gender ambiguity, he could begin wearing trousers rather than his traditional beautiful gowns.
i was in vatican city the day he made that speech as a tourist. he says it to his people, the followers of the catholic faith so if he’s following the teachings of the religion its perfectly fine. everyone, straight or homosexual, catholic or not, should respect the man’s opinion!
I should probably state that I am not a Catholic. I have attended many different denominations, because I select a church based on whether the pastor is feeding his flock properly, and what he says, so I identify myself only as Christian.
There is a biblical precedent for getting your own house in order before trying to tackle someone else’s. We are dealing here with a Vatican that did not do enough to remove priests from positions where they could continue to molest children. That seems a much bigger deal to me than anything that is happening between two consulting adults.
Why, why, WHY are so many of my fellow Christians, both Catholic and Protestant, hitting other people over the head with their Bibles? This is not what we were told to do. We are supposed to be spreading the gospel–literally translated as “good news.” The good news is that Christ died to pay for any wrong that we have done–that there is forgiveness from God himself. The good news is that if we accept that forgiveness, we are not condemned.
The way to convince people that God loves them is not by attacking them. To all of my fellow Christians out there–do you ever feel moved to change your opinion on any issue when someone argues with you, calls you names, or denigrates your beliefs? Of course not. Why, then, do you believe that others will feel any differently?
TThe teaching of right and wrong should really be concentrated within the church itself–not so that what we believe is hidden, but because that is where you learn. What we are not supposed to be doing is being some sort of moral hall monitors, handing out demerits to people we believe do not measure up to our standards. Frankly, very few of we Christians live up to our own standards. I am very grateful that God has mercy on us anyway, and forgives the sins that we ourselves commit.
As another responder said, there are so many immediate threats to humanity–poverty, disease, wars, famine. Shouldn’t these problems receive the greater attention? And if we want to truly “clean house” then maybe we should concentrate on abuses within the congregation itself, like physical/emotional/sexual abuse within churches and families. This is what really tears at the fabric of humanity.
And sorry, that should have been two “consenting” adults.
I think long before His Holiness should worry about ‘saving’ us from homosexuality, he should consider what until now has been considered a taboo subject by the Vatican, namely the proven terrible sexual abuse, which has reached epidemic proportions, by people in authority over children, namely by a relevant large proportion of the priesthood.
… by the way, I forgot: I wished to contact some form of Vatican forum on this subject, but found nothing where one’s comments can be ‘listened’ to by the Vatican. Does anything like this exist, or is it again proof that the Vatican is only interested in expounding, and not listening to its flock? How demagogic.
I do agree with Gabrehiwot. There is a purpose for us being the way we are created. Be it divine or natural. There should be a balance, and it should be respected.
Gillion says the pope should concentrate his efforts on poverty, violence and global instability. These are topics tackled daily by the church, but it is hardly taken notice of because we are used to hearing of that in our every day news. Homosexuals feel insulted? What would they say of all those who had to be discriminated by the society when HIV break out?
This is a sensitive topic we all know, but it is a situation which must be spoken about. I am against this practice, and have only one thing to say;
It is time you look down onto what has been divinely given to you and respect it.
At this time of Christmas, the Pope should be preaching peace and joy….
Homosexuality will destroy mankind – HOW ABSURD!
Live and let live, preach compassion and tolerance! The world does NOT need any more hatred! Every person has the right to lead her/his own life on her/his terms, as long as it harms no one. Gays are some of the most loving and caring people around. DOWN WITH RELIGIOUS EXTREMISM in all forms!!!
i think the pope has a responsibility as a religious leader to speak openly about the disintergration of human morality. however, as much as i believe homosexuality is unnatural, homosexuals should not be stigmatized. homosexuality should stop being glamourised by the media because it s un-Godly.
As an atheist I do not believe what the Pope believes. But in nature there are two sexes with the idea of getting offspring. As such, homosexuals are an oddity, because they do not have the correct attraction to create offspring. However since they do not recreate the logic is that eventually they will die out. So the alarm from the Pope is a bit unfounded here. Also homosexuals are socially not dangerous, only people who see everything that is not the same as themselves as dangerous, may dislike them.
I can’t think what the pope was trying to get at & I wonder if he was misquoted.
Everybody knows that all the major religions peddle homophobia-some are just more unctuous about it than others.
You sure of that, Taco?
If I were pushed to say I “be” anything, I think I’d have to say that I’m a lesbian. And I have 3 sons, and they all have children.
And as to sex & gender, how about the lovely piece of graffiti that goes “As far as I’m concerned being any gender is a drag!”
Gotta love it. There’s none so queer as folk…
The Pop is wright bout wht he says about homosexuality.
coz when God created Adam he Created for him Eve, if the homosexuality is a good thing God would have created an other man for him.
RE “” The Pope has said that saving humanity from homosexuality is just as important as saving the rainforest. “”
————————————————————————————————————————————–
——– Bit late since Adam and Steve can be see exchanging marriage vows in public.
Pope doesn’t have the moral credibility Pope John Paul had coming on the heels church sexual transgressions. Be sorta like the US calling for peace at a UN address.
Perhaps we the public can be saved from the unceasing puerile parade of gay issues which invariably feature relgious and hetero bashing to complement any gay bashing. There is general dumbing down of politics in the culture at large instead of what could be enlightened and instructive debate and discussion over common issues that impact everyone and the future.
Pope would be better respected if he asked whether humanity can survive global corporate piracy and fraud along with symbiotic global mafioso smuggling networks to go on top of overpopulation, another issue the pope is loathe to target.
Dare we bother to mention war anymore.
I think gays should be able to marry, but not have kids given it’s physically impossible for them to do so without the intervention of science. If you want a child, you should have to be forced to have consentual sex with someone of the opposite sex, otherwise you obviously weren’t meant to have kids. That’s simple biology, not morals.
is catholic church under pope the real orginator of gays and lesbianism around the world as priests and nuns who were stifled by canon laws of not marrying satisfied their biological needs through this unnatural biological acts?
so in a way stifling the basic biological need of human beings to have sex pope and catholic church are doing dessrvicetohumanity?
agreed with the current propositionofthe pope about homosexualitybringing in destructionto humanity like destroying rain forests but is the catholic church and pope ready to resurrectcanonlaw and allow priest and nunsto marry so that sexual pervations by bishops and nunsoccuring around the world churchcan be in a way avoided?
devadas.v
kerala
The Catholic church preaches that the only reason for sex is procreation. I know several lesbian couples who have produced children. Therefore they should be accepted even under the very narrow definition.
But my main concern is that the Pope’s statements lead to hate crimes against gays and others who don’t fit the norms of the dominant culture. Even if the Pope doesn’t encourage violence against gays, others take his views and conclude that all “deviants” should be killed. The Pope is speaking entirely opposite to the words of Jesus, supposedly the real head of the Catholic church, who calls us to love our enemies. Jesus also accepted many of the outcasts of his time and welcomed them into his group of followers. The Pope should be following Jesus’ example. When he makes ridiculous statements, he just makes himself more irrelevant.
DeEtte:
I challenge you to find me a homosexual couple that can have kids without the intervention of science or a third party. it’s physically impossible for homosexuals to have children having homosexual sex.
Why don’t we sit down and ask the one question that should be asked, and that is: What am i so afraid of and how do I try and understand? You see those that are comfortable with who they are. and run there own life tend to look the other way. So no the world does not need to be saved from Homosexuals, it needs to be saved from those that want to get into bed with me and my lover, but are afraid of the intense feelings that they will have afterward. Maybe they will actually find themselves.
we are moving towards a world where individuals decide what is good and bad for them rather than ideas and institutions. It is the right of each individual to pursue happiness especially if it does not effect the surrounding communities at all. Religions need to be updated in accordance with modern times.
The pope seems to be advising humanity to look to the future and to think deeply about what you want human society and institutions to be like. I don’t believe he would say to hate homosexuals and lesbians and if someone interprets his words that way, it is not the pope’s fault. We’re all responsible for ourselves and our attitudes and blaming the pope for hate crimes is a useless thing to do.
Personally, even though I’m not Catholic, I’m glad this pope is something more than politically correct.
Everyone has a personal point of view and understanding of reality.
The Pope is quite justified, because his world, the Roman Catholic Church, has received near-mortal blows from homosexual pedophile scandals.
The World at large is in no danger from homosexuality, and would undoubtedly benefit from monagomous relations between those so inclined.
Homophiliacs — man-lovers — should engage in rational thought prior to attempting to engage in emotional warfare. The motives of the global cultural majority are simply based in survival of the species in all it’s wondrous variety. The motives of those who define themselves exclusively by their performance of sexual acts with those of their own gender are somewhat more self-centered. Having lived for almost a decade in the Castro district of San Francisco — and marching with my (female) girl friend in the Halloween parade before it ever became fashionable — all of my neighbors were and many of my friends are queer. That doesn’t make them right; it just makes them queer.
I don’t agree with Pope’s view that homosexuals are the stigma to society .It is biased view . Homosexuals too have right to survive.They should not be excluded or marginalized from the mainstream society.But their marriage should bre discouraged coz it brings anarchy and disorder in the society .However their other rights should be preserved by thje state
As a Jew and a retired GP I condemn the popes comments . He is a fool and has no idea of the complexities of the human psyche .
His background explains his attitude to the gay population . He is only a man with poor acting ability and hides behind his extravagant surrounds . He urinates and empties his rectum like everyone else .
There is something rotten in the State of the Vatican.
I wanted to see the South American candidate get chosen as pope.
This world needs leaders who unite people instead of creating intolerance and sowing the seeds of hatred.
Shame on the pope for being so rude to gay people on Christmas! And hearing that he spoke out against child abuse made me think of the dilemma that I had heard concerning Einstein’s Theory of Quantum Mechanics. The pope is not going to let priests live openly as gay but he condemns child abuse. There is something wrong in the equation, something wrong with this pope.
I for one , side with the Pope on this one. There’s a danger that the fear of not being Politically Correct or vague notions of being liberal can cloud the issue. An aspect which is all too often glossed over is the traditional and scriptural warning from the world’s Holy Books (respected for generations as a source of guidance on moral questions).This is an aspect all too frequently ignored by proponents of homosexuality. Instead of accepting a situation which can be treated (hormones) or through therapy we have a lasses fair attitude to a degeneretive and corrosive influence on human society(as if we needed any more! ). Not only are we supposed to put up with artificial standards of political correctness but also their clamour for ever increasing rights vis-s-vis recognition of marriage (not sanctioned in scriptural text). In this case I wish they’d stayed In the Closet, personally, And what kind of message is this for children nowadays especially when nature itself indicates the need for a mother and father. For their sake more than anything else we should address this issue head on with all the cards on the table!
The Pope is playing metaphysics (blurring the sexes and lowering the population) and failing ethics in the Roman Church. The Pope cannot even save the Roman Church from perversion. I usually respect the Pope, as he does not always claim the low ground as he claims today. He and his ilk have been celibate too long, and I am sorry not only about that but about the philosophical consequence in his thinking.
Bob is right.
Overpopulation is a far more urgent problem.
Do we really believe that we can get away with adding 75-80 million people a year while exhausting farmland, forests, aquifers, non-renewable resources?
Birth control should be made available everywhere and abortion should be allowed, on demand and free and there should be incentives for small families (1 or 2 child-policies).
If we don’t do this we’ll end up like the Mayas, Easter Islands folks: starvation, genocide, civil war, cannibalism.
The Chinese have been forced to understand this.
Immigration in industrialized countries should be reduced to preserve resources, air quality, aquifers etc.
And for homosexuals, they’re a blessing as they traditionnally don’t contribute to the overpopulation problem.
PK
Canada
The question is: HOW is the pope proposing to “save” humanity from homosexuality?
By pretending that it doesn’t exist? Like pretending that priests weren’t molesting kids?
How does not acknowledging the presence of homosexuality “save” humanity from homosexuality? Or are we now kids playing peek-a-boo?- If I don’t see you, you don’t exist….
dust mites, definately the world must be saved from dust mites. and just think what a wonderful world it would be, no more dusting furniture or your tv, no more stuffed sinuses, or allergies, etc
I am just amazed how many people here are blind to the fact that life has a purpose.
Merry Christmas
Haven’t read all your comments – but here is some SCIENCE to help you make up your mind…
LIFE DOES HAVE A PURPOSE indeed – reproduction (and exploration of all sorts of ‘set ups’ that will work). Please remember : 2009 is DARWIN year (he was born 200 years ago, and his theory of evolution is probably the biggest jump in enlightenment we have ever made – mind you, 50% of Americans still have to learn this…).
Now the LATEST SCIENCE tells us that about 470 animal species do perform homosexual acts, from birds to primates to big brained marine mammals. It also tells us that the chances are VERY HIGH that we will soon know for a fact that homosexuality is a by-product of reproductive strategy. All recent studies point to a GENETICAL background to homosexuality (in humans, at least). And the most likely explanation right now (still to be definitively proven) is that the gene (or genes ?) that would ‘help’ homosexuality develop is also one that helps men being attractive to women in general. THIS would explain why such a gene would still be around after so long (after all, if the gene was detrimental to reproduction in total, it would have gone – and as far as we know, homosexuals are EVERYWHERE in the world and have been there for AS LONG AS we know things about humans in some detail.
Of course, all this does not take away the value of some arguments I have read about here, telling for example that the pope would have far more pressing issues to deal with (sex between unconsenting ‘partners’ as performed by many of his personel – maybe a reason to go around “gay bashing”, because that helps draw attention elsewhere ?-, overpopulation, health, poverty, destruction of our habitat and our climate, etc.).
Should you want to INQUIRE and READ about the subject before making more comments about how evil gays are, please go to the New Scientist website – there’s quite a few articles on the subject, if you are BOLD ENOUGH TO WANT TO READ AND LEARN (which is, by the way, a very ‘human’ PURPOSE OF LIFE).
The pope pushing the demographic bomb increases the likelihood of the Silent Spring. Homos harm nobody.
Belated Christmas greetings to all!
I am aware that this is a very emotional issue, however, when I listened to part of the discussion on air at the time, I was not as convinced as to its legitimacy as a real issue. Indeed, on the day in question I asked, why are we so bogged down in the remarks made by the Pope, that is; at the level of sex. I would like to revise that position, in retrospect.
I totally understand why the Pope’s remarks would be considered inflamatory in this regard. However, what is unclear to me is why is it that, if we are in disagreement with the Pope on this issue, we do not just say that and move on. Some of the remarks here have been downright offensive, which is not the same as saying we cannot disagree with each other or that, the Pope’s position is, necessarilly, right or even that, he requires being defended.
It is very interesting that, there seems to be an implicit desire for the approval of certain religious leaders, in this case the Holy Father, for our actions/ ideas, etc even if they run counter to the dogma held/ preached by such leaders. From where I sit, this is a futile project. We are, fundamentally, responsible for ourselves and must, therefore, give an account on the ‘Day of Reckoning’ for ourselves; that is, if we subscribe to such a philosophy.
The Pope is human and the Church has been known to have appeared, if even on the face of it, to support positions which it later disagreed with, etc. That would mean that, the institution of the Church, even outside of Roman Catholicism, is run by fallible beings, often with their own agendas and limitations, etc.
It is entirely possible for us to disagree with the Church/ leader/ Pope and still be right; that is, insofar as that ‘right’ is a position which is formed out of deeply held and considered positions, informed, hopefully, by more than just our narrow self interests.
As a Catholic, I submit to the teachings of the Church, however, only insofar as they hold meaning and significance for my own life. What the Pope believes, regardless of the basis on which he claims its legitimacy, is really, in a way, only what the Pope believes. The proof of the pudding is truly in the eating. It boils down to how we love, respect and treat with each other, regardless.
I don’t share the position that the world needs to be saved from homosexuality. I feel the world needs to be saved from people who are unable, or unwilling to make distinctions between their own consciences (whatever that is!) and the sense of obligation to believe/ profess whatever dogma/ philosophies/ ideas they feel compelled to, for whatever reasons!
It is the blurring of the lines between moral expediency and political convenience from which we need saving – people who hide their consciences in the interests of the so-called ‘greater good’, as a way of conforming with the political establishment. At Christmas, the Word continues to be Love!
Well, the pope’s position will SIGNIFICANTLY alter the situation of ALL the gays and lesbians who are unhappy enough to live in places where the position of the church helps dictate social -or, far worse, LEGAL- impediments on a “gay” way of life. That is enough, I think, to make the pope a REAL THREAT to a part of humanity. It’s easy for us “westerners” (in particular Europeans who do now live in pretty much secular societies) to forget how AWFUL it must be to be a homosexual in places where that is not allowed… The pope helps perpetuating a state of affairs that is detrimental to many – as did his good friend Bush on environmental questions, for example… So I think it is DEADLY SERIOUS business we are talking about here…
To Ana Milenia (Columbia)
“Homosexuality is an issue to solve” – please explain ?!
To Richard :
“Instead of accepting a situation which can be treated (hormones) or through therapy” – please explain (scientifically) ; if you find it hard to explain what you say, you may want to know that -unless YOU prove the contrary- there is as yet NO proven “therapy” for homosexuality. If you cannot stomach scientific proof – STOP USING YOUR COMPUTER, because it’s SCIENCE that created it, not a god of some sort.
Its possible overseas areas become uncivilized due to a lack of a civilizing internal and external force. It might be G~d.
. come back to the bigining of the humanity history and remove the greatest genius of the times Leonardo da Vinci, remove the great Michelangelo Buonarroti, remove all the homosexuality structure of all times who give enormously to this world, and see where you will guide the world
some acts if not checked they will escalate, not only in the church but in the world as a whole.As much as people advocate for homosexual it will never be right be it in the bible or outside the bible.Even those who practice this act they know its naturally wrong.Some acts advocated for even wild animals dont do them why then degrade the human life.
The BBC is lying about what the Pope said. Even if you make charitable allowance for its reporters’ ignorance, carelessness and bias, there simply is no other interpretation for the BBC’s distortions in this instance — other than a deliberate, willful, contemptible lie.
The BBC MUST fully retract and apologize for its coverage of this topic and set the record straight.
Meanwhile, what more is the BBC lying about?
The differential between the humans and animals are humans have moral standards and animals don’t. Different cultural has different moral standard which is define through their religious believe. I guess, if you are a religious person then you should obey the rules of your own religion and for those of you who are not religious then the life styles should fit into your living society which is define by law. Changing the law is a totally different issue than arguing about the religious moral standard.
I think that the Pope’s comments are hostile towards many people in society; that think that the Catholic Church is out-of-sync with the common people struggles in daily life…
~Dennis
Yes.
Please do not confuse issues with “practice of Pope”. We need to put end to Homosexuality. Just because we can do anything, we can not substantiate every actions of Human beings.
Animals never substantiate their actions.
The Catholic church has proved, time and time again, that chastity is far more dangerous than homosexuality. It is also unnatural, while homosexuality obviously isn’t, as anyone who has observed the behaviour of mallards will bear out. Anyway, If God exists (which I very much doubt), then might homosexuality not be a sort of anti-population-bomb safety valve built into creation? Furthermore, if the Pope believes that we should be breeding like rabbits, why doesn’t he set an example?
As I read this only one thought came through my mind… “What???!!!” I am not homosexual, but I believe that everybody has the right to decide what to do with their lives as far as they don’t bother anybody else. Why doesn’t he talk about the hundreds of children that are being killed by all the futile wars in the world? Why doesn’t he say that we have to be saved from the tyranny of those who decided to invade a country just because of oil? What is next? “The world has to be saved from scientist”?
I fail to understand why the sexuality of consenting adults is anyone’s including the church’s business.
Homosexuality is as natural as heterosexuality, – and in fact the range of human sexuality is wide, including asexuality, bisexuality. It exists in the natural world, and can be observed among animals as well as humans, and while not as common as heterosexuality, perhaps, and not having an obvious evolutionary purpose – that does not mean such a does not exist – there is nothing wrong with it. Fear of sexuality of any kind strikes me as more of a danger to society than sexuality itself.
It is this homophobia and bigotry which is the danger – and those who which”get rid” of behavior of others which posits the danger makes our world an unpleasant place, not love of one human being for another no matter what their sexuality.
Homosexuals are the new victimes of the everlasting human characteristic hate
Hate that is normally developed with in groups of majority against successful minorities
The natzies hating the Jews
The whites hating blacks
Men hating successful women
Now hating the fact that 2 adults with a different type of relationship,different only at the complete personal choice of sex, can still be a successful and normal couple
Let’s save the world from this hate
Hi,
How come you never printed my recent contribution. ?
Anyway, I have developed my thinking since reading so many contributors, especially Essexgirl and Samuval Raj. Now, I think the Pope is very frightened by the naughty behaviours of many of his priests, especially in australia, where I live and in the USA, and has just over-reacted.
Perhaps the Pope thinks he will become a homosexual person and wishes to avoid this by saving the WORLD from homosexual people – which is very much of an over-reaction, if you ask me. I mean, there are easier ways… like he could surround himself with women instead of men which is what he does now.
Or, he could simply stop being the Pope and start a new way of life where he doesn’t get into such a tizzy.
Eustacia from Perth
Reading these comments, I can only despair at the frenzied and unthinking hatred that the BBC has stoked with its LIES! Did a single one of your reporters or producers actually READ what the pope said — much less bother to comprehend it? If so, then you know you are LYING! BBC = LIAR!
@ Ulric,
I completely empathise with your position in relation to the influence of the Church and its stranglehold (?) on moral and legal institutions in some places. What worries me, however, especially where the disputed (?) claim about the text of the Pope’s speech in relation to homosexuality, as reported by the BBC, is the especial sensitivity on this matter.
While, that is understandable, it seems odd to me that some of the opinions expressed seemed to want to urge the Pope to agree with an alternate position or to insult him outright for not doing so. The Pope can defend himself, no doubt, against such attacks (?), however, what is unclear to me is why there would be a need to seek support from one who is so overtly intolerant towards a particular position.
There isa clear need to be freed from the oppression of institutions like the Church, etc. However, just as important is the need for the enhancement and strengthening of civil liberties, education and real tolerance throughout all areas of society. Not all Christians, or even Catholics for that matter, agree with positions like teh Pope’s.
We, of course, could never tell based on how these discussions evolve, though.
I suppose we are to supposed to agree with all of you less we be called bigots, hatemongers, etc. Little advice, liberal BBC fans: Just like the Pope, practice what you preach, and stop judging people who think differently than you!
I am christian and I am gay, I can’t understand the pope when he says that homosexuality is a threat to humanity. Because nowadays gay and lesbian couples have children and perpetuate the institution of family . Besides the pope doesn’t represent all christians, for instance the Anglican church is more open and accepts gay couples in some churches. I don’t think that the pope is someone very attuned to our world’s problems, he isn’t in touch with the issues we are facing today. I have a christian religious leader that I love very much : the archbishop Desmond Tutu. he supports openly the gay community and is an advocate for gay’s rights . He fought against an illegitimate regime : the apartheid, so he thought it was illogical to discriminate another minority . As gene has said he practised what he preached, namely love for one’s neighbour. Hating people is not a christian principle, Jesus was against hatemongers.
Julian from France
Here’s an idea: why not remove marriage from ALL laws and statutes leaving it only to the domain of religious persuasion? Then, the state can honestly recognize civil unions– which should be little different than forming a corporate body of 2– purely for legal purposes. This way, marriage can remain the “divine” institution that is among its Christian supporters wherever/however they worship– straight or gay– while aetheists and other non-Christians can enjoy the legal recognition and rights associated with a civil union.
Marriage, as it is now, is still a vestige of the prejudice of the Judeo-Christian world embedded in secular ritual which subtly excludes “heathen” non-believers much like the swearing on a bible or the inaugural prayer, just more evidence that at the core of religious proselytizing, there is no room for anyone else.
People are entitled to their own opinions but have no right to infringe upon the lifestyle of others. Love is love. Whether one wants to admit it or not, if you believe in God and that he/she created us, then he/she created homosexuality as well. Get over it! And quit all da hatin!!!~
I find it interesting that the same book advocating the death penalty for working on the sabbath, using blended fabrics, and being uncircumcised is actually quoted in persecuting homosexuals. Please remember that in the 1960’s, these same religious leaders were speaking very cautiously to the world about the rights of people with different colored skin, and the right for people of different ethnic backgrounds to marry. The world is constantly changing, and people are evolving to be able to understand lifestyles that are different from theirs.
To the Catholic Church, and the Church of Latter Day Saints, please be a real religion and not a hate group. Use the massive amounts of effort and spiritual energy you are utilizing to discriminate and persecute, and maybe add to your aid programs in Africa. You know there are Catholics and Mormons suffering all over the world, right? Why don’t you worry about that.
Ok my last commet was not allowed, so I ll try to say the same thing not as directly as I did before: We, human societies have to stop patronizing this kind of hate; the magisteria of men, only can invite us to hate each others, despite it preaches love, hates whatever is diferent. Please there are really more urgent issues in this planet that if I kiss Mary or Frank.
Hi,
I have a lot of sympathy for J.A.M. and Gene – name-calling, judging and despairing do sooo not get anyone, anywhere.
I wonder what the Pope is thinking, about how we converse with each other about his opinions, on World: Have Your Say. Does he read what we write?
Does he care?
For myself, I’m withdrawing from participating in this topic – I sooooo do not wish to get my ‘knickers in a twist’.
I’ll bide my time until we encourage each other to converse amongst ourself with ocassional humour, some smiles, a wee bit of laughter and lots of interesting surprises.
Maybe this could be a future topic? “Do contributors and the show’s Presenter(s)/Producer(s) contribute anything, to World anything?”
Eustacia
The Pope claims a moral authority questioned by all except devout Catholics. Isn’t it time for people unfettered by Catholic dogma to examine a few fallacies in the argument over homosexuality?
I am a homosexual having experienced my puberty during the 50’s during which I discovered that I was a pervert and, if I dared to actually have sex , I was a criminal!
There was no informed source that I could turn to ;it was a very lonely and frightening time.
The Church is muddle-headed over the matter simply because it implies that our God-given sexuality is a matter of choice. Many Christians fear that homosexuality is a disease and an infectious one at that. I ask them can they change their sexuality? I can assure them that given the circumstances that i grew up in I too prayed mine would change. There is no choice in the matter. How can it be a sin??
A straight man has no Authority when he feels free to judge another man’s way of making love. If he wants to know about homosexuality he could ask a homosexual and maybe get some real questions answered by someone who IS a homosexual.
The Church has no right to make pronouncements over these matters.The Catholic church has an extraordinary history of persecution. It should examine its own house before pontificating to the rest of us. It has fostered libels against Jews and other groups throughout the centuries of its existence.
Please do not tell me how to love until you show yourself as a true vehicle of love and not a conduit for self-righteous cant. Then and only then can you claim true Authority.
Such a wonderful comparison made by the Pope. It truly shows how in his eyes the gay population is as destructive as the effects of destroying the rain forest would have.
But of course, this mentality is as outdated as the Church and the religion in general. We cannot help who we love, and we should not be condemned for it.
Trying one last time to interject some small kernel of SCRIPTURAL KNOWLEDGE here without being censored, either the question of what the Pope thinks is incompetent in and of itself or several of the posted responses which are nothing more than a defense of homosexual practices without reference to any moral standard are irrelevant to the question as posed.
Bashing religion in it’s typically (mis)defined sectarian denominational manifestations may gratify those who may or may not accurately know about the nuances of what the various denominations actually teach, but launching into invective about the Christian faith itself (in it’s quintessential form as a FAITH RESPONSE and not a political manifestation) is just ignorantly throwing the baby Jesus out with the ecclesiastical bathwater that I’m rather sure He doesn’t appreciate being sullied with in any event.
To quote that “God is love” and then to infer from that affirmation of generalized truth that He therefore loves acts which His inspired writings label as “unseemly” and “abominations against nature” demonstrates an unfortunately all-too-prevalent tendency to refuse to “put away childish milk and grow in spiritual maturity to ingest doctrinal meat” fit for those who have developed their spiritual knowledge beyond that of only vaguely aware infants in faith.
I agree with the Pope. Although I’m not Catholic, I agree that humanity has engaged in many activities that deny our biological nature: destroying the environment, genetically altering the food (so-called franken-food), etc.
As an American, I believe 100% that people should live as they wish, so long as they cause no material harm to others. As a denial of the third biological imperative (maintaining homeostasis, surviving, reproducing), I believe it’s not “out of touch” to see homosexuality as a cause for concern.
I also believe that it’s LONG OVERDUE for humanity to take a good, hard look at what we’re doing to each other and the world. We’ve learned a lot about the dangers of messing with nature, yet we still have no idea what the ramifications of what we do will affect us as a species.
I have no idea on what the sociological answers are, but I know that we need to sit down and seriously discuss this. The Pope is opening dialogue on a subject we NEED to talk about. So long as the critics try to shut people up with intimidation and name-calling (this has gotten really bad in the states) no such meaningful dialogue can take place.
Why does it seem to be difficult for so many people to recognize the difference between condemning sinful acts and condemning people? Many of those who have used this forum to criticize the Pope’s pronouncements seem to direct their invective against him as a person in order to divert attention away from the relevant issue – namely; irrespective of how demonstrably right or wrong may be his opinions regarding any other issue (let alone bringing up events which occured some hundreds of years ago over which the current Pontiff obviously had no possible control), is a spokesperson for the teachings of Christ obligated to speak out against actual acts (not tendencies or thoughts) which violate certain clearly-stated moral prohibitions? I would answer difinitely in the affirmative. So far as criticism of the infitesimal percentage of clergy who engage in perversion, it is incompetent and itrrelevant to the question at hand. If this were not the case then no atheistic humanist could avoid being tarred with guilt for the bloody massacre of mechanized decapitations which occured during the French Revolution or the horrors of the openly atheistic Stalinist regime. Any of these propositions are blatantly intellectually dishonest. As for those bloggers who seem intent on imposing guilt by association by accusing the Pope of Nazi sympathies merely because he is a Gernman national who was alive during the Third Reich is the basest form of totally unfounded ignorant racist bias.
If we destroy the rain forest, we all die. If a few percent of the world’s population are gay, some of us are offended. I don’t see the comparison. However, if the world’s homosexuals were to suddenly disappear, like in the Rapture, many of us would be surprised at who wouldn’t be around to repair our car, teach our kids, take our x-rays, or fight our wars. Many of us would lose parents, children, siblings and friends. I don’t think we’d be bettter off for it.
Marcia thanks you have a good point there. And Mr Don Lax:
Of course we can not “let alone bringing up events which” as you said occured centuries ago,beacause it this same Magisteria, imposed on population based in fear and blood, the same that claims being the only truth! The basis of the moral in the occidental world. And it is not about blame religion for being one of the most powerfull political devices in all occidental history,the problem is keep on feeding this hates,and it is not defending homosexuality, it´s againts hate, because it have no cientific nor sociological demostration of homosexuality as a threat,it is only a diferent choice, away from the dogma, anditis as harmful as islamisms, so whilingly confused with terrorism lately.
I hope you post it
As an atheist I have nothing in common with the Pope except we are both human beings. The Roman Catholic Church has a lot to answer for regarding the spread of aids in Africa and assisting overpopulation in many parts of the World due to its disgraceful stand on teaching that using contraception is sinful .However, I do find the sexual act carried out between two men abhorrent. Sex is primarily for the continuation of the species: so we therefore have man and women. From the health aspect I believe the aids epidemic, which started in the West in the latter part of the last century, started amongst homosexuals and although they were the most at risk many others, such as women, were infected by bisexuals. Blood transfusions initially also contaminated many hemophiliacs.The reason it is more transferable between men is to do with the greater chance of damage to blood vessels during the act but does not stop it being given to women who have less chance of passing it on except through child birth. I trust the bluntness of my comment is not a cause to prevent its inclusion in comments?
The ‘world’ is a lump of rock and doesn’t need to be saved from anything – it will still be here a long time after humanity has vanished. The world as in ‘our environment’ is an arguably fragile system that is far more at risk from the ravages of overpopulation and the depletion of natural resources than from anything that happens between two people of the same sex.
If the world means ‘humanity’ then I would propose that heterosexuals and their ill-considered desire to over-breed are much more of a danger to our continued existence. Perhaps the relevant question should be; ‘does the world need to be saved from heterosexuality?’
Yes, of course over population, depletion of the World’s resources, along with the destruction of the eco-structure appears to be a serious threat to our existence. But at least the former could be mitigated to a large extent if those such as the Catholic Church encouraged safe sex (as in contraception), instead of bleating on about it being sinful to prevent a birth as a result of sexual intercourse. There was a time when the Catholic Church-quite disgracefully -spent much time pressurising catholic women that they must do nothing, apart from abstinence, to prevent a birth. Even when many a retched, poor woman, already had more children than she could feed and look after in anyway approaching healthily. In fact, as we know, many a child died of hunger and neglect and of course still do in the undeveloped World. But then, being married to the church was, and still is, hardly the best way to understand a family’s predicament. Frankly I don’t think they cared as long as they perceived what they preached was the word of their God. Never mind humanity!
If a successful outcome is reached regarding the over population of the World it will more likely be down to science, but certainly not resulting from the teaching of many of the World’s religions..
Ivan Martin:
I am sorry but I desagree: In the first place, AIDS epidemic it is NOT homosexuals responsability, as you saddly suggets, It doesn´t start with homosexuals, even ( in what we do agree) they were in high danger of contagion by its sexual habits. But I wish to let this clear, homosexuality is NOT the cause of the epidemia, only one of the most notorious patterns in theese early days.
In the other hand, no matter how abhorrent you find homosexual intercourse,It exist and there is nothing we can do to change it, as it was said before in this same debat: Can you change your sexuality??? Really hope that you do not have to find some of your beloved abhorrent.
Going back to the over population problem, finally, we can consider homosexuality as a by-product of Darwinian Natural Selection in human kind in order to, paradoxically would save the world.
Look at all the abominations in the Book of Leviticus (Old Testament).
Why do modern day Christians choose to keep the abomination referring to a man sleeping with a man, and reject the following:
It is an abomination:
1) To sleep with a menstruating woman.
2) To place meat and dairy products on the same plate.
3) To eat pork or shrimp.
4) To get mildew on clothes.
5) To wear different fibres at the same time.
6) To commit adultery (women stoned).
7) To plant different crops on a rotation basis in the same field.
8) Not to circumcize a male child.
9) For a man to lie with a man. (No mention of lesbians in Bible).
Why is only the 9th abomination in place today for Christians?
Note that other Old Testament customs have been disgarded:
a) To give your daughter to the stranger.
b) To have multiple wives.
c) To slaughter every man/woman/child/beast of your enemy.
Why pick and choose? Does the Pope presume to know the mind of God? Does he have a right to keep the 9th abomination that I have listed.
Confused.
I find the Pope’s comment prophetic! It seems we have to conform to the culture, when we as Christians(Catholics) should not be conformed to this world or at present hedonistic culture! But rather put on the armor of God! Conform or rather to put on the mind and love of Christ! Conform to His Will, which is better then ours!
Marriage is a religious institution, and every religion has a different definition. What we are talking about it a change in MAN’s law, NOT God’s law. God did not write the laws of any country in the world, men did, and men are fallible. Government has no business involving itself in marriage. In every country, governments should revise all marriage laws and replace the word “marriage” with “civil unions,” strike all references to gender, and only allow public officials to perform these unions. The government should not recognize religious marriages, and churches should never be required to recognize civil unions. This allows every religion to maintain its own definition of “marriage” and keeps government out of this religious institution all together.
Even within Christianity, some churches bless same-sex marriages, while others still view it as a “disease” to be “cured.” The Catholic Church even recently ordained a gay bishop! And if two men marry each other it has absolutely no effect on my life. It’s no threat to my relationship, and it costs me nothing!
I have heard over and over the arguments against same sex marriage that range from completely false to entirely irrelevant. Perhaps my favorite was an argument by a U.S. Senator on the Senate floor explaining that because there are too many illegitimate children being born in Norway, the United States must have a Constitutional Amendment to prevent same-sex marriage. How is this relevant!? Is there some idea that if we prohibit same-sex marriage, gay men will fall in love with gay women, get married and have children?
Dear Ros,
Why do you want me to modify my comments?
Is there a special set of rules and regulations that govern comments?
Please let me know so that I will try to conform to them.
Philip
Dear Sir,
I fail to know what your comment , “Your comment is awaiting moderation”.
Philip
Sir,
If you want to you can print my comments the way they are or just stop posting ANY comments on your Blog.
Philip