28
Nov
08

Urban Warfare

Mumbai has come under attack. The city will never be the same.

On Saturday Newshour will be looking back at a bloody week for India’s business capital. We’ll be hearing from eyewitnesses, and talking to our reporters in Mumbai, Delhi and London, analysing the implications of this incident for the city, for India and the region.

What do you feel about what has happened? Do you fear that there will be more such attacks – and elsewhere? Are you worried about revenge attacks on Muslims, or an increase in tension between between nuclear armed India and Pakistan? How can this murderous hatred be brought under control?


25 Responses to “Urban Warfare”


  1. 1 John van Dokkumburg
    November 28, 2008 at 20:19

    It is disgusting how these hollow people have there mind set on . The only thing i can think of why they can do such immorality is the doctrines beneath these actions . The people who dont have hope our never got hope will do this , yes that must be the reason .. but if these people dont like good work our hope for a better day for you me and everyone .. all there decisions our action are lies and are primairly not of Gods dignity , now my clear conclusion : so give your “holy” life to the Lord this way ?? .. a hole of loosers , a – loooooser that shall dies ..

  2. 2 kpellyhezekiah
    November 28, 2008 at 20:52

    I am afraid there would be more such attacks. Yesterday I pledge to bring to public knowledge what I know on this site. What has happened in India is related to what is happening in Dr Congo, Chad and Suddan, New York, Liberia, Seirralone, London. The common factor here is that the fightings/attacks took/or are taking place at places of economic importance whether they be stock exchanges,mineral rich areas, oil, banks etc. Please, leave religion out of this especially those who are castigating islam. The system has been set up to PAINT THIS PICTURE. This is my 1st entry. Would someone begin to think about what I’ve just written. God bless us all. I am a christian.

  3. November 28, 2008 at 23:58

    All this posturing with talk of Nuclear retaliation does not help the situation. There needs to be strategic action to oust these attackers. The thought or even news broadcast of possible nuclear threat feeds the attackers egos. Even the Israelis refrain from nuclear action in the favor of use of intelligence and human-force to rid the area of this threat. Would Einstein reiterate his sadness of this possible event as he did in relation to the atomic bombings of August 1945.

  4. 4 Roberto
    November 29, 2008 at 00:13

    RE “” Mumbai has come under attack. “”
    ————————————————————————————————–

    ———- Apparently so has Long Island, NY.

    Marauding Walmart Shoppers broke down doors in advance of opening this AM and ran over an employee, stampeding him to death.

    The outrages of humanity remain unchecked well into the 3rd millennium.

  5. November 29, 2008 at 08:15

    Mumbai has come under attack. The city will never be the same.

    Who came up with that one? Warrington is back to what it was – London is back to what it was – hell, even New York is back to what it was.

    Sensationalism of an issue at the time doesn’t change a city – the people who live there changes it.

    12(?) men who did this cowardly act will not change one thing – other than making security a bit tighter, but, once the worlds security gets tight enough – what will they do then?

  6. November 29, 2008 at 09:33

    India, Pakistan One Race, Perpetual Enemies!
    TEHRAN – India has an enormous advantage over Pakistan although they are one people. Pakistan was at a disadvantage to begin with. Both started out fighting Brits, but Pakistan has had to struggle all the way since 1948. The two have fought several wars. The future of Muslim Kashmir is still uncertain. India believes that Pakistan is the root cause of all terrorism on the peninsula, but that just isn’t true.
    India is always in the limelight. Computer proficient India has gained international fame for its breakthroughs. The nuclear issue is another plus for India. France, Britain and US are feting the achievements of India and helping, but no such luck for Pakistan. India has carved a lucrative trade and investment deal with America and elsewhere. Inward investment before the global recession was brisk.
    No reason Pakistan shouldn’t share this prosperity. For the time being it’s either Waziristan, fighting Muslim extremists in Kashmir or being accused for Mumbai incident. Now and then Saudis may pump a little cash to Islamabad but that’s nowhere near enough to develop a nation of 170 million plus.

  7. 7 Roberto
    November 29, 2008 at 20:39

    RE “” 170 million plus.””
    ——————————————————————————————————————————————

    ————— Be a most excellent project for Planned Parenthood to take on.

    Doesn’t take an extensive education to figure out that parents cannot provide for all those children in a backward country. That would be the first step to better development.

  8. 8 Syed Hasan Turab
    November 29, 2008 at 21:57

    India dont believe in admission of error & foul play, while living in the region with corruption, hate & unionism, on the top of that try to take advantage of each & every political blunder.
    Presance of 800 thousand Indian army with all sort of crimes against humanity against Kashmari nation’s including 60 years histry of Birth Controll policy against future muslim’s generation’s is the worst crime against occupied people of Kashmir.
    Histry of crime against humanity started after UNO resolution in favour of Kashmari nation in which India agreed to conduct refrendom weather Kashmari want to affeliate with Pakistan or India, since 1948 Indian Govt is trying to avoid the free wish & will openion right of Kashmari nation.
    Instead of Refrendom a 60 years long histry of Crime against humanity is available to understand real well to India.
    India never ever try to resolve the issue in a peacefull manner, & dont have any justified reason of occupation in violation of UN resolution.
    This is why any sympathy with evil may be understand as crime.

  9. 9 Arvind Joshi
    November 30, 2008 at 05:19

    The Mumbai Terrorists seem to have learnt their lessons from a PC Game GTA Vice City. Millitant games should be stopped being created.

    Arvind Joshi
    New Delhi

  10. November 30, 2008 at 17:28

    How can this murderous hatred be brought under control?

    When all sides admit to their guilt in all aspects of any armed conflict then and only then can we begin to establish any type of constructive dialogue, a meeting of minds, and then press forward small step by step in to developing a platform for consistent political discussion and debate. It sounds so simple doesn’t it? But it isn’t by a long way. It will be a painfully slow process, lasting many months and quite possibly years. But if all sides are truly committed to the process then progress of some sort can be made.
    In this instance Hindus have perpetrated massacres upon Moslems past and present, well before Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda appeared on the scene. Their method and all the efforts from either side, wish to do harm and create even greater division than before in all regions of the world, is all the more visible due to 24 hour news media bringing it into every living room of the country and countries of the world. We can’t escape from it and every single perpetrator of terrorist acts, politically and legally sanctioned acts of terrorism (invasion and occupation of a foreign territory). World Wars I & II and all consequent wars brought terror to all its victims. But we fail to view the whole these days and are wrapping ourselves up wholly in the present. And all the time we are succumbing to the fear that is all around because we unwittingly have created that environment of fear, foreboding and uncertainty of the future amongst ourselves, due to the 9/11 factor, the 7/7 factor in the UK and all other incidents that have put a barrier between and created an even greater “Us and Them.” It was there before but I’m pretty damn sure to a much lesser extent than it is today.
    We must look beyond the most damaging 8 years of a US presidency and strive forwards with new aims, ideas, and above all with hope in all our hearts!

  11. 11 Jack Hughes
    November 30, 2008 at 20:22

    Dude, you’ve caught Bush Derangement Syndrome.

  12. November 30, 2008 at 21:52

    Jack Hughes,

    Do you have anything of substance to offer apart from died in the wool cliched comments?

  13. 13 viola
    December 1, 2008 at 01:31

    When all sides admit their guilt? Is that another way of saying, as do Christians, that all are sinners, all equally guilty and in need of (God’s, if you’re religious) saving grace? That all we have to do is confess, get forgiven, hug each other and love will reign supreme?

    Good luck convincing a suicide bomber or a member of a military incursion team like the one that just hit Mumbai that he needs to admit his guilt. Or the people who support them.

  14. 14 Jack Hughes
    December 1, 2008 at 03:24

    This thread is about the islamic terrorists attacking Mumbai/Bombay.

    There is a lot of islamic terrorism around at the moment. In Spain, London, southern Thailand, the Philippines, Indonesia, northern China. And islamic terrorism happens in spades in the Middle East and other muslim areas.

    They hate

    books
    statues of buddha
    women teachers
    teddy bears
    schoolgirls
    jews
    gays

    Their hatred is caused by the islamists themselves.

    Not caused by President Bush – who will be leaving office pretty soon.

  15. December 1, 2008 at 15:32

    Matthew December 1, 2008 at 2:47 pm
    Viola,

    Two recent examples of peaceful negotiation are those in Northern Ireland, and the pardoning of the guilty and racist oppressors in South Africa, under President Nelson Mandela. Both are imperfect examples of peace and negotiation, as will all others be.
    But a framework and basis on all sides of a conflict that can be established and everyone is prepared to negotiate over has to better than what be currently on offer, surely! Getting them to that negotiating table and establishing a dialogue and communication of some sort is by far the hardest but also most worthwhile part, and is the first step on the path to peace, be it it Al Qaeda, religious separatists, nationalists, any armed force of opposition no matter who they be.

    Otherwise don’t be surprised at any situation or incident terrible to behold that perpetuates the struggle, cause, the ingrained hatred and rejection of a governing power, if it is one of suppression and subjugation of a constituent part of its citizens. But it doesn’t consider them to be its citizens, because they just don’t fit the criteria that as been ascribed to them. Justice, Freedom & Respect are there to be trampled and spat upon by those in control!

  16. December 1, 2008 at 16:47

    Matthew December 1, 2008 at 3:34 pm

    Viola,

    What we seem to forget is that civilisation is skin thin, and to propose otherwise is being disingenuous. Societies, communities and cultures are held together with narrow levels of respect and “try doing unto others as you would in turn expect of them to do unto you” being appropriate to the cause. Now if these simple codes are not adhered to and are torn and ripped asunder by others, this will inevitably lead to conflict of some sort. Such is the human condition, our fallible nature and an all too easy disposition to resort to aggression and conflict of some type, at the slightest hint of threat, insecurity and invasion of one’s personal space. In those all too prevalent instances then we are all subject to committing acts of violence upon one another, when all elements of restraint and control have been wrenched from our grasp, in terms of response and defence of our very existence. Until we rise above this evident failing within all of us, yes all of us! We can all snap when we are at the end of our tethers. Even peacemakers wrestle within themselves as how to turn the other cheek and pull back from raising their fists in anger and frustration at a complete lack and stalling of progress of any kind in their immense effort to do good in the world. We are all subject to human failing of some kind, no matter what moral pedestal we are content to place ourselves, our societies, communities, cultures and nations upon. But when restrictions, oppression, subjugation, freedom of expression and worse is rudely visited upon those at various or at all times from particularly within and also without the country, state and nation is imposed upon one in such unrelenting fashion then there will inevitably be a backlash and response of some kind. It will reveal itself in an ugly manner and mirror actions to a certain extent and above and beyond that of the oppressor.
    Is this what we all desire, perpetual conflict of some kind, I’m better than you and we’re civilised and you’re not scenario being played out in the most willful and destructive manner? I think not.

  17. December 1, 2008 at 17:50

    Jack Hughes,

    Yours is such a simplistic argument that has no basis in the reality of Moslems, Moslem communities, Moslem nations and countries. I have to ask myself do you know any Moslems at all. Do you associate with any Moslems, converse with them, or have any type or sense of communication whatsoever. If indeed you do then I wonder what you have learned from them if anything at all.
    In your list of offences carried out by Moslems, there is a certain basis and evidence to support some of the acts perpetrated by those responsible. But you are referring directly to the Taliban are you not and a genuinely mistranslated Iranian president? If you research what was actually said by him on various occasions, you will find he has been deliberately and maliciously misquoted and therefore misrepresented by most of the highly prejudiced western press, working in their own self-interests.
    You can’t cast all Moslems in the same mould as one faction and one oppressive movement representing the faith and its adherents as a whole. To even try is displaying a real lack of knowledge and understanding on yours and others behalf. “He who is without sin let him cast the first stone.” You must know that one.

  18. December 1, 2008 at 17:52

    Jack Hughes,

    I can cite you endless evidence and examples whereby the US past and present has been less than forthcoming in admitting to its military misadventures, underhand methods deployed in any given situation with spurious reasons put forward in the effort to supposedly protect and preserve National Security at all costs.
    Since the end of the Second World War America’s military interference, foreign and secretive operations are unprecedented. Your whiter than whiter picture you wish to offer up to the world is sorely tarnished. Bush has simply up the ante to such an extent that discontent, despair, hatred, violent insurrection has been raised to such a level that the global response by disaffected individuals has been exacerbated to such a massive extent, it doesn’t bear thinking about.
    The CIA has been responsible for the deposing of democratically elected heads of state, destabilisation of nation states, assisting military Coups d’etats, aiding and abetting various international and nefarious activities and individuals, arming and financially aiding Osama bin Laden and the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan to fight the Soviets in the interests of Jimmy Carter’s government.
    An ex-Chief of the CIA is on record and has written a book discussing, exposing and outlining the extent of underhand activities and operations undertaken by the CIA over many years. Executions, attempted and successful assassinations of various individuals. Black Operations so named to underline the covert and secretive nature which knows no bounds as to method and type of mission in order to achieve the required ends.
    Moslems causing all the world’s problems, not by a long shot. Do thorough research and find out the unpalatable truths surrounding your so called National Security & Defense as applied on a global scale over the last 50 years. You’ll find it enlightening and/or shameful and embarrassing depending on your take on things.
    The countries you have mentioned have a history of regional and territorial conflict long before 9/11 and 7/7, including the UK re. Northern Ireland. The UK and Spain chief proponents and supporters of the US Coalition Forces in Iraq and Afghanistan. An illegal invasion and occupation of a sovereign territory and foreign land. Need I say more?

  19. 19 viola
    December 1, 2008 at 23:21

    @Matthew

    While it is true that many people do not place current conflicts in their proper historical setting, don’t assume that people who disagree with your analysis of events and causes are necessarily in that category. You may assume that people from different cultures will be exposed to different versions of history. On this BBC participatory site, I constantly read versions of history that don’t even accept that certain things happened on certain dates, let alone the causes for those happenings. This happens incessantly in the conversations about the creation of Israel and Palestine. I’m sure the same thing happens with respect to the India-Kashmir-Pakistan issues.

  20. 20 viola
    December 2, 2008 at 00:10

    But to the questions asked: Yes, I think retaliatory attacks on Muslims are worrisome, as such attacks are unlikely to target those who carried out this bloody attack or those who planned it and supplied the weapons, transportation and information to the soldiers who did the dirty deed. An increase in tension is inevitable between India and Pakistan if it is found that Islamists are behind this attack. Another threat of a nuclear exchange is worrisome. Hopefully, cool heads will prevail and the world will unite to defeat this enemy.

    In this day and age terrorists can choose any target they like and deliver crippling blows anyplace on earth. It is therefore appropriate to call it world terrorism and the whole world must respond to it. “United, we stand, divided we fall.” Simple, but not easy.

  21. 21 Jack Hughes
    December 2, 2008 at 07:56

    // retaliatory attacks on Muslims are worrisome

    There have not been any “retaliatory attacks on Muslims”.

    This is like the headline from the UK’s left-leaning Guardian newspaper:

    Community leaders fear backlash after tomorrow’s bombing

  22. 22 VictorK
    December 2, 2008 at 14:39

    Matthew December 1, 2008 at 5:52 pm

    The bottom-line is that the problem is Islamic terrorism. The options for countries threatened with this religiously inspired terror vary. Within the West negotiation with Muslim terrorists can never be an acceptable response, as it might be in Palestine, Afghanistan or Iraq. The terrorists do not, in Western societies, represent credible or legitimate interests that a government would be justified in engaging with (this is what distinguishes Muslim terrorists in the West from the likes of the IRA and ETA, the latter two both being genuine ’sons of the soil’, while Muslim terror is waged on behalf of interests and issues completely alien to Europe). Not being Westerners, Islamic terrorists have no right to attempt to dictate to Western governments and peoples. They are simply criminals.

    Any country that finds itself the victim of a dirty nuclear bomb – which we are told is a future inevitability – or fears that it may become such a victim, will be perfectly aware of the logical implication of the following fact: it’s only the presence of a Muslim population that creates an Islamic terror problem.

  23. December 2, 2008 at 22:20

    Viktor K,

    Osama bin Laden was a CIA operative and worked on behalf of the US government something US politicians and Bush’s government want to thoroughly disassociate itself from now. It sits uncomfortably that yet another man was used and abused by the CIA and thrown out into the cold. This is not the first case of it happening. But if we are to believe that this one (bogey) man is behind all of the terrorist atrocities throughout the world over the last 15 to 20 years, then the West has nobody to blame but itself for what it may have unleashed upon the world. I have deep suspicions about the whole subject but that can wait for another day.
    I can only strongly urge you and others to watch a fascinating and factual documentary called “The Power of Nightmares” and deduce from it what you will. At the very least it is a highly interesting thesis and premise to work from. Let me know what you think.

  24. December 3, 2008 at 16:15

    Hi WHYSers!

    I am always very worried about these discussions of terrorism which, in the main, seek to demonise entire groups of peoples because of the actions of particular groups, however small. Yesterday’s programme on-air about the need to acknowledge violence as an almost inherrent part of the Islamic faith continues this very line.

    Indian intelligence failed to the extent that they were alerted by the US government about a likely sea attack, as well as the Taj hotel which also recieved intelligence of an attack on the hotel, but did nothing. Further, the delay and the apparently uncoordinated response during the attack, itself, are also matters for consideration. In that regard, it is odd to me that the discussions here centres only on the question of Islam as the all-encompassing villain in the piece when, in fact, there are other layers of this problem.

    The question of how to treat with the sense of injustice, whether real or imagined, that is said to fuel these terror cells as well as the rooting out of fundamentalism, both of which apparently go hand in hand seem to have escaped the notice of many. Violence only begets more violence and is part of the psychosis of terror, which is to keep us all in a state of bloodshed and fear. How can that be a basis for peace and calm? How do we achieve the justice required to mobilise such a reality? Those to me, seem like much harder questions than the promotion of fear, albeit implicitly, of entire communities on the basis of the reprehensible actions for specific groups within their borders.

  25. December 3, 2008 at 16:34

    I would not be so presumptious as to say the West is deserving of the ‘war’ currently being waged against its ideas by certain terrorists within the ‘Muslim World’. But, I would not be as quick to say that all Muslims are violent and that, their expulsion, removal or whatever else suggestion from Western societies is the solution to stemming/ eliminating these attacks.


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