27
Nov
08

Your reports from Mumbai

It’s sobering stuff following the situation in Mumbai. We’re going to hear as many of your accounts and comments as we can, as well as taking live updates from BBC correspondents in the city. If you have first-hand accounts, or have spoken to people involved, or simply want to share your reaction, please post here. There are twitter reactions coming in all the time here.


111 Responses to “Your reports from Mumbai”


  1. 1 Robert Evans
    November 27, 2008 at 13:43

    I would like to state that the people in the United Kingdom fully support India. We will do everything that is needed by the government in India.

    These people need to know that their actions can not and will not be tolerated by anyone and they will face the full force of Indian law.

    Here is the BBC news page with all of the information about the attacks http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/

    The attack sites

    Cama Hospital
    Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus
    Oberoi Hotel
    Cafe Leopold
    Taj Mahal Hotel
    Chabad Lubavitch Centre

    The world has condemned this outrage quiet rightly because I am frankly furious with the attackers not only because they attacked India but because they attacked the Indian people who are fantastic people. I also find the attack on Cama Hospital rather disturbing because a hospital is ment to get people better.

  2. November 27, 2008 at 13:54

    Mumbai blasts – Congress paying a heavy price for being secular

    Ruling party claims itself to be secular party , so always , it seems disabled when dealing with cases having religious links. such is the case wth terrorism , as islamic extremist are involved in it. it can be seen with recent examples. previous attacks in all major cities of india were not put to severe and serious investigations in congress ruled state.
    Party is of the opinion that if they arrest and punish muslims , muslim community will go against him, so they will fall from power in the next election. so congress is playing so called- vote bank politics.
    BJP, the opposition party , supporter of hindus, but i fear , communal unrest will increase if they come to power

  3. 3 Bekele Woyecha
    November 27, 2008 at 14:08

    I am utterly shocked with what happened in Mumbai. It is extremely disappointing and outrageous. This is an indication that anything can happen anywhere unless effort is exerted to find a lasting solution to the crisis worldwide. What a bad luck for innocent people to suffer from such a brutal and cowardly attack?

  4. 4 Robert Evans
    November 27, 2008 at 14:12

    @ Binay Prasad

    I hope you know that the entire world has condemned these terrorism attacks.

  5. November 27, 2008 at 14:24

    Such a ghastly chain of incidents, Oh God.
    India’s image as a safe tourist place has fallen from bad to worse.

  6. 6 Joe
    November 27, 2008 at 14:30

    If I hypothetically had a neighbor who told me one day that our neighborhood consisted simply of his house and “the houses yet to be conquered”, I would be alarmed and I’d think of preparing for conflict. Yet this is precisely what Islamists declare: There is the “houes of Islam” and the “house yet to be conquered”, meaning the rest of the world. These are the words supposedly given long ago by their warlord prophet.

    We need to recognize that although Muslims certainly did not commit 9/11 (yes, the evidence is clear, criminals in the US government killed did it, probably with Israel’s help), that attack has inspired many Muslims to take Mohammed’s original battle stance and declare war on non-Muslims. It may come to pass that Islam is found incompatible with the West, in which case an eviction from the neighborhood may be necessary.

  7. November 27, 2008 at 14:50

    Twitter seems to be going mad keeping abreast of what is going on over in mumbai. It certainly makes for sobering reading… although it was interesting that the indian pm has already said that it is the work not of indian nationals. The guardian is claiming that Britian already new that something was going to happen, and that already it is being focused around Al Queda.

    Some reports claim it is to do with indian troops killing people in kasmir, other say its related to pakistan athough the govt has strong denied this, and if you listen to the demands of the hostage takers they seem to have links to india.

    Either way its a bit confusing at the moment and my thoughts are with all those who have been caught up in this.

    Long term i wonder what effect it will have on business, India has always traditionally had a good link with both the west and the middle east, will this see a change in this policy?

  8. 8 Arnaud
    November 27, 2008 at 14:52

    We should ask “Does God permit suffering?” “Why God continues to allow wickedness?”

  9. November 27, 2008 at 14:54

    Hello Everyone,
    Its a sad day not only for India but for the whole world.This is another failure of the world’s “fight against terrorism”.I am in Dhaka,Bangladesh and here we are hearing speculations of the fact that this might be just another grand work by the various terrorist groups in India and abroad.I am not sure how safe a country can be.The Taj Hotel which is simply the best hotel in India is supposed to be one of the safest places,isn’t it?How come they not detect 15 terrorists coming inside with weapons?I fear the fact that if they(terrorists) decide to attack Delhi or any major city,the economy might just collapse.As a democracy India must try and strengthen its security and pull its people together in this moment of crisis.Also,providing aid to those who have lost their near and dear ones is a vital factor.
    Thank you
    Abhinav

  10. 10 VictorK
    November 27, 2008 at 15:10

    There is nothing shocking about this barbaric attack, which is just the latest incident in Islam’s never-ending war against the non-Muslim world.

    Western (and Indian?) politicians will doubtless embark on their usual damage-limiting mantras of Islam being ‘a religion of peace’ (the only religion for which this claim needs to be made, and always after some act of bloodshed), and that the killers were ‘unrepresentative’ of Muslims and have ‘perverted’ ‘true Islam’ (which seems to exist only as a kind of Platonic ideal, usefully called on to diminish the crimes of ‘real Islam’). The facts remain what they are: there is only one religion that habitually breeds violence against non-believers (and against its own co-religionists, for that matter), and whose violence can be justified with reference to its most basic teachings and the example of its founder (whose own record of terror and violence is incontrovertible).

    The problem isn’t about how to meet the legitimate grievances of some disaffected group, but how to respond to the permanent violence of a religion that is unique in, as a matter of orthodoxy, inspiring and authorising violence by its followers.

    p.s. – what has India to do with Iraq, Afghanistan or Palestine, the usual excuses?

  11. November 27, 2008 at 15:16

    Terrorism was one of our greta problem in our country. The difference among Mmbai blast and ours is religious motivation. Terrorism in Peru, 20 years of insane violence, left thousnad of injuried people, orfan children, economical crisis and a deep scar among peruvians. We were not able to pay attention on was was going on along the mountains ao isolated places in the country. But when it happened in the city, murdered people every day, blasted cars and ejecutions, then we realized about the problem but it was so late.
    Terrorism is bad not only for the society affected, it´s bad for the region, it gievs inestability to our neigbours and no possiblities to develop our societies.
    I can understand the situation in India because we lived the same. With the fear in the skin and with the uncentain feeling of be coming back home alive. Despite many of the leaders of Shinning path and MRTA are in jail, there have been some attacks aging army done by guerrilla supported by the narcos in the jungle of our country. The terrorism now is showing a different face: the face of the the organized mafia.
    What to do? reinforcement of goverment actions shod be taken carefully taking in count human rights. It´s difficult becuase the public sensibility but it´s the most convenient if the goverment do not want deep scars in future.
    We don not have some kind of religious fundamentalism , but it´s quite similar to talk about the fundamentalism and criminal actions done by Shinning path with this brutal actions in Mumbai.

  12. 12 Monica in DC
    November 27, 2008 at 15:24

    I just want to extend my sadness for and support to the people of India. This is a horrific situation, the footage I’ve seen on CNN has just made me want to cry. Today is Thanksgiving day in the US and I hope all Americans will remember the people of India in their prayers (and I’m not even religious but I might say one anyway).

  13. 13 Dan
    November 27, 2008 at 15:35

    The slaughter of innocent is now claimed by Muslims…Allah Akbar.
    When will we civilized people finally put down our political correct liberalism and terminate, with extreme prejudice, this scourge of Society?
    “My thoughts & prayers are with the victims”, “I’ll pray for them”, “I am shocked” “I want to extend my support…” accomplish nothing. One must stand up to these barbarians. When one stands up to a bully they back down. When one exposes evil to the light of day it withers and dies.
    When will WE decide Freedom and Civilization are worth fighting for?
    Must our children and loved ones die before we develop the common sense to terminate this Islamic garbage?

  14. November 27, 2008 at 15:35

    Hi Ros,
    Its a sad day not only for India but for the whole world.This is another failure of the world’s “fight against terrorism”.I am in Dhaka,Bangladesh and here we are hearing speculations of the fact that this might be just another grand work by the various terrorist groups in India and abroad.I am not sure how safe a country can be.The Taj Hotel which is simply the best hotel in India is supposed to be one of the safest places,isn’t it?How come they not detect 15 terrorists coming inside with weapons?I fear the fact that if they(terrorists) decide to attack Delhi or any major city,the economy might just collapse.As a democracy India must try and strengthen its security and pull its people together in this moment of crisis.Also,providing aid to those who have lost their near and dear ones is a vital factor.

    Cheers!
    Abhinav

  15. 15 Joe L.
    November 27, 2008 at 15:48

    No one on air has mentioned the recent execution in Indonesia of the Bali bombers. Possibly this attack in Mumbai is a canned quid pro quo response to those. Perhaps, unable to strike directly in Indonesia, Al-Qaeda hit somewhere they could. It would be interesting to know.
    My condolences to all the victims, their families, and the Indian People.

  16. 16 Himansu Gangwar
    November 27, 2008 at 16:01

    Hai friends,we became so familar of these terrerist attacks every thing will become normal after some days politicians will lagpull eachother.In india there is only talking there is no working.BJP is also worst(remember Kandhar,malegaon,kalyan singh,uma bharti episode so plz go and take a good sleep.plz don’t give it communal name becoz both communities have common ancestry PARTHIV PATEL is hindu but MUNAF PATEL is muslim.

  17. November 27, 2008 at 16:08

    Hi WHYSers!

    I was completely engrossed with the coverage of the Mumbai Terror Attacks on CNN and even got to work late this morning, though I also had a headache (for what it is worth!). What is alarming about the incident, however, was how easy it seemed for the terrorists to move in and over power the hotels. September 11 was so dramatic, for me, that the notion of terrorism in the modern world has been changed forever in my head; meaning, terrorists strike with a phenomenal amount of ‘shock and awe’. This one seemed so simple, though the effects were no less dramatic. The likely implications of some cross-border influences, as was intimated in some of the reports on CNN, is also very disturbing, as it may undermine potential outreach efforts by the Pakistani President.

  18. 18 selena in Canada
    November 27, 2008 at 16:08

    @Joe

    I guess we will never be sure but we can be sure that violence begets violence. History should have taught us that much, at least.

    This will test Obama’s mettle because, though the attacks happened in India, he will be pressured from people like Dan to “put down our political correct liberalism and terminate, with extreme prejudice, this scourge of Society and develop the common sense to terminate this Islamic garbage”.

    Now where have we heard that before?

    The more things change the more they remain the same.

  19. November 27, 2008 at 16:15

    This situation is unpleasant and tragic for everyone caught up inside it. And I don’t wish to appear callous, but the same assumptions and conclusions will be drawn over the next few days as more information comes to light and further events unfold. The inevitable body count and final number of casualties accounted for. One thing’s for sure the situation will not go away in a hurry and a similar scenario will be repeated in India or elsewhere. But before the so called “Age of Terrorism” there have been regional tensions, conflicts and attacks over the last 50 years or more in India and throughout the world. It is so easy to label this incident, others that have preceded it and those to come as prime examples of Al Queda, and the “New Terrorism in our Midst” as some so casually like to use it for effect and emphasis for their own purposes. It is so easy to instil fear in all of us these days by immediately referring to Al Queda, Osama bin Laden, etc,etc, etc… I’ll say it again and again and again, “there is nothing to fear but fear itself.” And so many of us have enveloped ourselves up in this and allowed ourselves to believe all that is fed to us by the main media networks, and never question the perceived notions and positions held by those in high and powerful places. They want this, and more than ever we fall for it without asking the salient questions and enquiring beyond that which is transmitted to us through our less than perfect media on a daily basis. Choose to willingly accept this and that includes BBC TV News most certainly, then what can you expect? Too many of us accept to being treated like mushrooms – kept in the dark and fed a load of bullshit! Until we do our own investigations and seek information outside the usual circles and venture away from the same old tired faces and them trotting out their political condemnations and various slanted speeches, then we’ll be none the wiser. What an unbelievable arrogance of David Milliband, UK Foreign Secretary, trying to tell the Saudis how to negotiate with the Somali pirates the other day re. the hijacked tanker. The absolute gall and contempt he displayed in that moment is a prime example of New Labour and all its repugnant behaviour.

  20. November 27, 2008 at 16:21

    The events in Mumbai are quite rightly labelled as an attack though as opposed to the invasion and occupation of Iraq carefully labelled merely as “a conflict” by the BBC Today programme in November 2006 and other one agenda media. A BBC listener couldn’t remember when other bloody invasions were reduced into such terms. The response by Roger Hermiston, Assistant Editor of Today to a written complaint was:
    Dear Listener, You may well disagree, but I think there’s a big difference between the aggressive “invasions” of dictators like Hitler and Saddam and the “occupation”, however badly planned and executed, of a country for positive ends, as in the Coalition Effort in Iraq.
    Yours faithfully,
    Roger Hermiston
    Assistant Editor, Today

    An invasion isn’t an invasion as such if “we” in the west do it. This is double standards and censorship in so called free and democratic countries. There is deliberately no official body count of dead civilians in Iraq! Why?

  21. 21 VictorK
    November 27, 2008 at 16:30

    @Selena: I think violence is often very effective, especially when directed against weak and irresolute opponents.

    Violence won the IRA a share of political power in Northern Ireland. Saddam – a master of violence, but more importantly a man of iron will – maintained order in Iraq for decades, and had no appreciable secular or Islamic terrorist problem, unlike the weak-willed Western Coalition that’s currently floundering over there; violence and terror gave the Russians victory over the Chechens (even though the Chechens were in the right); violence robbed the Serbs of part of their sovereign territory; violence defeated democracy at Tianamen Square and the threat of violence keeps the dictators comfortably in power in Beijing;…

    Violence often works and often provides a solution (if not always the best solution). Exterminating the terrorists through violence (rather than persuasion) is a perfectly legitimate and morally justifiable option. It’s when the terrorists know that their violence won’t beget even greater and (for them and their backers) more catostrophic violence by us that we ought to start worrying. A non-violent response is an incentive to terrorists.

  22. 22 John in Salem
    November 27, 2008 at 16:32

    Dan~
    These people do not represent Islam any more than Timothy McVey represented Christianity. They are simply little people with pointless lives who have been brainwashed and given guns. Don’t make them out to be bigger or more significant than they are – that just feeds the process that creates them.
    This isn’t some grand conflict of “The Civilized World Against The Forces Of Evil” here. Events like this are just growing pains and the people behind them aren’t worthy of a footnote in history.

  23. 23 Robert Evans
    November 27, 2008 at 16:44

    @ Joe L

    The execution of the Bail bombers doesn’t deserve to be mentioned in the media. This is because some people will class the bombers as marters.

  24. 24 Dan
    November 27, 2008 at 16:44

    @selena in Canada November 27, 2008 at 4:08 pm

    I guess we will never be sure but we can be sure that violence begets violence. History should have taught us that much, at least.
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Selena nothing personal but this is the nonsense response that I expect from bleeding heart liberals.
    Maybe the world should have let Hitler take over the world as “violence only begets violence”. No one should have retaliated in WWII.
    And after 9/11 we just should have said “Our thoughts and prayers are with you”.
    These bumper sticker sayings are nonsense and betray any intelligence.

    I want to know just what you think Obama is going to do? Do you think he will hold a prayer vigil or maybe send an invitation to the terrorists to come to the Whitehouse for tea & crumpets.
    Obama is going to do what every other President would do and not because you think I am a Neanderthal but because it is the right thing to do.

    These Islamic terrorists want you DEAD!!!! They do not want to reason with you.
    They want you DEAD!! They do not want to talk with you as you are a woman only good as breeding stock. Then they want you DEAD.

  25. November 27, 2008 at 16:55

    @ Matthew,

    The last question of your second post is worth considering. As I recall it, there was a report about a year and a half ago, on the said same BBC, that indicated that the UN had done a body count of Iraqi civilians which totalled over half a million (?) in the course of the Invasion. The Bush White House, immediately, condemned the figures and suggested some alternative number or questioned the report’s findings in terms of its counting/ investigative methods.

    I am not sure if that would, necessarily, suffice in terms of your remarks about an official body count of dead Iraqis during the course of the Invasion. What I will say however, is that it is clear that the BBC has an agenda in these matters, which is fine by me, so long as it is never assumed they do not or that their position is, somehow (more) objective, and, therefore, more truthful.

    It is always hard to build consensus around issues like these, not so much because listeners are unaware of the biases embedded in the news narrative, but because the narrative, itself, is a representation of long held biases within certain audiences. The value placed on Iraqi life compared to those of the Coalition Forces in the West will, obviously, not be the same as in Iraq, itself, or other parts of the ‘Eastern World’. Why?

    Well, among others, the goals of the Invasion, such as they are, are constructed, by and large, as a deep ideological struggle between East and West; Christians and non-Christians; whites and non-whites, etc. It is hard to see, as a result, a real way in which the news in this part of the world would readily open itself up to the kind of vision you are articulating above. No? And, does that change the seriousness of the Mumbai Attacks? I would venture no!

  26. 26 steve
    November 27, 2008 at 17:02

    I first heard about this story last night while at a bar talking to some indian guy who has lived in Germany for 29 years. He works for Deutsche Welle Radio’s Hindi service and he got the phone call while we were talking and ran outside to make frantic phone calls to help prepare for the radio broadcasts. Sad irony.

  27. 27 selena in Canada
    November 27, 2008 at 17:07

    Why is it that no one notices the people who live out their entire lives in the gutters of Mumbai? Are they that invisible?

    The focus of this story is on the wealthy who can afford to frequent the hotels and live in the lap of luxury.

    The big story should be the global breeding grounds for “terrorists” of all kinds. Does anyone think that such terrorist acts will be wiped out by focusing on one religion and continuing to ignore the abject poverty in which millions of people live out their lives?

    If we continue to huff and puff and say, “bring em on” this kind of story will remain fodder for CBC, BBC and CNN. How often do we see continuous coverage of the misery of poor people? Why is this not as important as a terrorist attack on the wealthy?

    As John says, the events feed the process which creates them. If one takes the wealthy people at the wealthy hotels out of the equation, the events are not worthy of a blink in history.

    I am truly sorry for the people who lost their lives because of the blindness of world leaders. But I am equally sorry for the babies who are born, live out their lives and die homeless in the streets of Mumbai.

  28. 28 Dan
    November 27, 2008 at 17:14

    We are now hearing all the trite saying:
    “Violence begets violence”
    “Give Peace a chance”
    “An eye for an eye will only make the world blind”
    These are all bumper sticker level of intelligence requiring no thought or insight.
    These bumper stickers are poor substitutes for reality and actual national policy.

    The Islamic terrorists must be sent to their reward in Paradise where they get to rape their 72 black eyed virgins who get this as their reward for living a humble and pious life.

  29. 29 Vijay
    November 27, 2008 at 17:16

    @Robert Evans
    TJHS?

  30. 30 Dan
    November 27, 2008 at 17:16

    @selena in canada

    My how we excuse the brutality of Islamic terrorists by changing the subject to the homeless of India.
    THESE SUBJECTS ARE NOT COMPATIBLE TO THE HORROR DELIVERED TODAY BY ISLAMIC TERRORISTS.

  31. 31 selena in Canada
    November 27, 2008 at 17:20

    @ Dan

    These Islamic terrorists want you DEAD!!!!

    I know 🙂 but,

    since humans have inhabited the earth someone, somewhere, has wanted someone else DEAD.

    But death is the fate of all humans whether by the hand of terrorists or nature. There is nothing we can do to change that.

    So, knowing, that it is possible that I may die in an accident or by natural causes at any moment, I won’t waste my precious nanoseconds engaging in hatred of others, simply because they happen to hate me.

    I would rather spend my time trying to find an answer to hatred, even though that is a lofty goal and one which history demonstrates is most like unattainable.

  32. 32 VictorK
    November 27, 2008 at 17:24

    An Iraqi body count that distinguished between Iraqis killed as a result of Coalition action and Iraqis slaughtered by other Iraqis would be more to the point.

    @Selena: I’m fairly certain that most of Mumbai’s poor are not Muslims. Yet they aren’t committing acts of terror. Bin Laden was immensely rich. He’s an ideological terrorist and his ideology can be traced back to his religion. Many Islamic terrorists are well-educated and middle class (like the doctors currently on trial over here for attacking the airport in Scotland).

    The poor of Mumbai are a matter for the Indian government and nobody else.

    The reports aren’t focusing on the wealthy but on the victims of terror.

    Most Muslims are not terrorists, but most terrorists are Muslim, a fact that can’t be avoided in today’s world.

    Terrorism will never be wiped out, but it can be isolated by forming a cordon sanitaire around Islam and the Islamic world, it’s true breeding ground.

  33. 33 Dan
    November 27, 2008 at 17:24

    @Selena in Canada
    The answer to hatred is easy.
    The source of evil which is the spawn of hatred is in the bible. I believe it starts with Genesis when God said He created evil.
    We are commanded to fight and kill evil…not understand it or send it to therapy.
    So if you are still looking for it you have wasted many years.

  34. November 27, 2008 at 17:24

    These events in Mumbai are being reported one way courtesy of most western media, unfortunately.
    They are now wheeling out as referred to in the earlier post, all the old and tired voices; Paddy (pants down) Ashdown is wittering on as usual, as he bleated on about Yugoslavia and Bosnia. He’s a self-important, pompous and disingenuous man, who has to stick his oar in each and every time this happens. Does everyone know that he was put forward to do similar in Afghanistan as he purportedly did in Bosnia? Rt Hon Lord Ashdown Paddy Ashdown is a former leader of the Liberal Democrats (1988 – 1999). From 2002 to 2006 he was the High Representative and the European Union Special Representative for Bosnia and Herzegovina and was the US and UK’s preferred candidate to be UN High Representative in Afghanistan – a move blocked by President Karzai. President Karzai saw him coming and rightly so and obviously didn’t think he was the man for the job. What a glorious snub to man so up himself, it’s quite incredible to behold. He hasn’t improved or achieved any thing of value or purpose in Bosnia. His effect has been nil. He will have you believe different and offer up loads of waffle about progress and integration, and the nation advancing forward. I would like to see clear cut and unambiguous evidence of this. So far and to date nothing is forthcoming, and most likely won’t be as a consequence of his personal interventions. He like so many politicians at the time fobbed us off about this and that re. Yugoslavia and everything done by NATO and Western intervention was justified and well-founded. If the truth ever comes out of what happened over there and the independence of Kosovo following on from everything they’ll be a lot of deeply embarrassed individuals and proverbial egg upon politicians faces. Prime candidates for categorical investigation and sentencing will be Tony Blair, Bill Clinton and latterly lame duck President Bush.

  35. 35 selena in Canada
    November 27, 2008 at 17:29

    @Dan

    I am afraid the Bible does not carry much weight with me as an answer to the world’s problems. In my view, the way it is interpreted represents the cause rather than the solution.

    We can carry on a Bible discussion on the After the Show Blog, if you wish.

  36. November 27, 2008 at 17:30

    @ selena in Canada,

    I would venture in response to your last post about the focus on the rich and whether the story would have seemed relevant at the same levels at which it dominated the news headlines last night, no, not really! As came out of several of the reports between last night and this morning, India has had a long set of experiences with terrorism. Which is part of the original point I raised. It seemed so unlike the ‘drama’ of the 9/11 attacks it took a while for it to sink in, in terms of the seriousness of its implications in terms of actual life and the fear that it engenders, etc.

    I am certain this is why Mumbai was targetted to get attention to the ’cause’, such as it is, of the terrorists. To suggest, however, it is only just the poor and downtrodden who are the perpetrators of violence in the form of terrorism is to miss, in a way, the power of political differences and separatism in the modern age. Let us not forget that, in the earliest period of the Iraqi Invasion, it was suggested that powerful oil interests and other wealthy, non-Americans also had a stake in financing terror.

    It would seem to me that, the poor are the primary actors enaged in the ‘war’ on the frontlines, but there are just as many other, wealthy and powerful interests responsible for mobilising these attacks. What is to be questioned is how widespread is their involvement and how do they stand to gain by ‘financing terror’ in many of these instances? Or could it be that this ‘financing terror’ line is but part of the Western propoganda to demonise the East?

  37. 37 Dan
    November 27, 2008 at 17:32

    While we celebrate Thanksgiving in America giving thanks and expressing gratitude for our lives and what we have no matter how small, Islamic terrorists want to destroy God and his creation.
    When will you each understand that?

  38. 38 bjay
    November 27, 2008 at 17:32

    YE !

    To incite the ignoramus mined by religious ‘dogma’ is crime against humanity.

    Targeting people who is susceptible to influence.

    Go after those people of white color crime whos behind to all these.

    YE ! (high power ‘state’ financier/brokers?)

    bjay

  39. 39 Dan
    November 27, 2008 at 17:33

    @Selena I would love to but I am with family and I am about to help my nephews put a train set together while the food is cooking.
    Hopefully we can “talk” later on the other blog.
    Happy Thanksgiving

  40. 40 selena in Canada
    November 27, 2008 at 17:36

    @RPJS

    It would seem to me that, the poor are the primary actors enaged in the ‘war’ on the frontlines, but there are just as many other, wealthy and powerful interests responsible for mobilising these attacks.

    I couldn’t agree more. Thanks for pointing that out.

  41. 41 selena in Canada
    November 27, 2008 at 17:39

    @Dan

    Happy Thanksgiving to you, too. Your nephew’s a lucky boy.

    It is always good to count our blessings. Enjoy!

  42. November 27, 2008 at 17:42

    @ Dan,

    You may well be right in suggesting that religion has played a key role in precipitating these deeply divisive tensions/ conflicts/ wars between the West and East in the form of Christianity and Islam, specifically in the context of modern terrorism. However, there is more to this than suggested by your post. People are just as easy to abscond, as well as question religious ‘obligations’ in other areas, including sexuality, choice, etc. However, we are not as keen to also question these other ideas like the ‘hatred’ you claim that the Bible encourages believers to develop towards ‘evil’. That is the part that is most worrying.

    We revise those pieces of the equation that does not suit us, but are quite content to ‘believe’ other areas, even those as obviously destructive as the ‘hatred’ which you claim is to be found in the Bible. Everything is up for questioning. People need to make these decision not because it is written in a book somehwere but because they see a value in maintaining such ideas.

    I would, therefore, venture that the East-West tensions, as I have heard the Mumbai Attacks being characterised here, have served various agendas in this part of the world. It is way too easy to carry religious lines like yours without also acknowleging how hypocritical such a position is, given how much ‘Christians’ disagree with several areas of their own theology. No?

  43. November 27, 2008 at 17:46

    Rawpolitics,

    Thank you for that and all concise and valid points made by you. But we’re no nearer any answers, and the deliberate obfuscation of the truth once again rears its ugly head.
    It does appear that the level of so called “terrorist acts” has risen quite considerably during the Bush years. The evidence is there. Before there appeared to be considerably less. CIA and “Black Ops” come to mind. These are very real just thoroughly under examined by the media. America is under the illusion and misapprehension that current policy is allowing the security and safety of the US to prevail. The US has actively destabilised and assisted in the removing of democratically elected heads of government, in their pure self-interests. So many people just don’t want to accept it or just can’t, due to their wholly misplaced and misjudged belief in leader, country and state at all times, and at any cost. Better known as being blinded and blinkered to reality. Ignorance is bliss! I’m not saying this is the case in this instance. But stranger things have revealed themselves to be true after the story disappears and is investigated or reappraised at a later date. Most of us won’t give this or Mumbai a second thought in a few days, because we’ve become immune and numb to how we should look upon this and research further events that have preceded this and question our perception and understanding in relation to how we view the media informing us on this and all similar issues.
    These guys actively went after US & UK passport holders, if that is to be believed. It’s obvious why. The chief proponents, aggressors, invaders and occupiers of Iraq and Afghanistan are chiefly American & British Forces. They wanted to send another message to the West and its two main leaders, again if that is to be believed. A word to the wise, I suggest you take everything you see, hear in the media and are told by certain people in high positions with a distinct pinch of salt!

  44. 44 roebert
    November 27, 2008 at 18:18

    Victork: If Islamic terrorism could be defeated by counter-violence, I would reluctantly agree to whatever violent measures were needed. But it won’t be defeated by violent measures because it is too elusive. Its elusiveness and unpredictability are its (successful) strategy for outwitting and outmanoeuvring powerful conventional forces. The problem of Islamic terrorism can only begin to find resolution once the talking begins. We need to put aside the far-fetched notion that Islam wants to ‘rule the world’, and go about finding out what world-Islam wants and how agreements can be reached. It is time to talk to Islamic terrorists and to world-Islam in general. If this does not happen, the futile and horrible cycle of violence will continue, and it will worsen.

    I am furious at what the Muslim terrorists have done in India, the country and people I love most in the world. I hope that the Indian government will quickly locate and punish the criminals. But I also hope that India’s leaders will find the wisdom to convene with the Muslim radicals and begin talks to resolve the grievances. There is no other way to a lasting security.

    And as for islamic terror and butchery, and Islam itself, and all practitioners of that religion: When are you going to look to your own house? My God, your religion has become synonymous with barbaric butchery, and you can find no one wise enough to make it a respectable faith again?

  45. 45 jens
    November 27, 2008 at 18:31

    the problem is that we westerners are prepared to tolerate the intolerable. the muslims what this and that and we give in in the name of PC etc etc. we need to start to treat this intolerable religion the same way others are treated no special excuses etc. if they don’t like it one way ticket back to the countries they came from.

    evrn beter re-educate tham that their imaginary sky-fairy does not exist, counts actually for all religions. funny how many people have been killed in the name of so-called peace loving gods……..i am sick of this.

  46. 46 F Anjum
    November 27, 2008 at 18:32

    I have been following the news channels in India since yesterday and was under the impression that the terrorists where looking particularly British and American citizens(that’s what most news channels said eg: CNN IBN). Now I heard one of the victims of yesterday say now on the BBC worlds service that there are certainly people of all nationalities and that there are also Arabs! The innocent lives lost is a great tradegy but the media is somehow never fair and completely true.

  47. November 27, 2008 at 18:34

    The division that terrorism wants to lead to is evident here – quite.

  48. 48 F Anjum
    November 27, 2008 at 18:40

    By the way, terrorists follow no religion. No religion preaches or supports terrorism, going by the religious scriptures which are the soul of that religion. “Islamic terrorists” or “hindu terrorist” is an extremely wrong teminology used by most ignorant people of today.

  49. 49 viola
    November 27, 2008 at 18:46

    To the GOOD people of India: Bless you. May you find consolation to help you through this terrible event.

    Remember that the war against terror has not failed– because it is not over. Terrorism is merely a tactic in a war being waged in the world today and, as such, must be opposed by all who want a peaceful world.

    There are tactics to destroy the effectiveness of .these terrorists. It is the task of our militaries, that are charged with the protection of our countries, to find and use those tactics against the enemy.

    Canada

  50. 50 steve
    November 27, 2008 at 18:46

    How do you reason with people crazy enough to think you get 72 virgins after you are dead? Remember, you cannot have sex with a virgin if you are not alive. So what is the logic in thinking you get that? So clearly these people are insane. Can you “talk” to insane people? That was what I was discussing with the indian guy before DW called him up. He kept on saying “we need to understand the root causes” and I said “you mean we need to understand insanity?” and he kept on making all sorts of statements that all we have to do is “understand” and they won’t want to kill, then he got the call, and I probably wrongly said “do you still believe what you said? A lot of people are dead now because of someone’s crazy religious beliefs, they won’t ever live again” and he had to go.

    So basically a lot of people are dead because some mentally retarded people think they’re going to get some virgins by murdering innocent people.

  51. 51 Vijay
    November 27, 2008 at 19:00

    1.The Government of India has not provided enough employment opportunities for the nations young people(50% of the population are under 25)minorities are more effected than others due to discrimination hence they get frustrated and pick up the gun.
    Indian companies(the ones who pay the politicians to keep the Indian market closed and trade restricted)can not employ all the people in India,foreign companies should be allowed to enter the country and operate freely and trade freely.
    As President Bush said recently what is needed in the world today is Free Markets,Free Trade and Free people

  52. November 27, 2008 at 19:02

    Here we are twenty four hours after one hundred plus lives lost doing what they were doing in Mumbai, India. This story coinciding with the possible subway attacks alert in New York City on the Thanksgiving travel week made me to stay home with my kids even if my wife has to go to work not to lose pay on this recessionary time.

    This can happen any where and any time I do not think we can totally eradicate such danger because our world is full of problems which lead some to take such action to avenge those they blame violating them.

    Thanks God, It would have been a major disaster if these armed men had nuclear arsenal with them. We are still not sure how is it going to end it seems, however, the worst is over and my condolence for those who lost loved ones.

    On tonight Thanksgiving dinner I will be thankful to be alive and be with my family and friends because you are not sure what tomorrow will bring here in New York City where I live.

  53. November 27, 2008 at 19:07

    Whoever slays a soul, unless it be for murder or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men. (Qur’an 5:32)

    Words could never be enough to convey the grief that we as a global community bear as we are made witness to the worst crime imaginable: mass murder. Let us stand together as one against these senseless acts of terror and death, and support and console each other. These monsters will not divide us, inshallah (God willing).

  54. 54 Ogola Benard
    November 27, 2008 at 19:11

    Its so unfortunate. It sounds so bad and many people are in fear! other foreigners have expressed fear of such a strange attack!

  55. November 27, 2008 at 19:14

    @ VictorK,

    Even while it appears that you no longer speak directly to me, allow me pause to question your claim above in relation to who has been killed by whom in the Iraqi Invasion. I am just a little unclear about the point in relation to body counts, in terms of those slaughtered.

    It seems to me that part of the upsurge in violence in Iraq is the direct consequence of the Invasion by the Coalition forces. Whether they killed the people themselves, misreported the facts or in some way facilitated an unstable environment as a result of the ‘war effort’, does not change the fact that the plan to bring ‘peace’ has had the completely reverse effect.

    I recall where the BBC did a feature in which life in the ‘green zone’ was critiqued beyond the ‘spin’ of the US military machinery. In it, a comparably more grim and decidely unsettling picture of the violence caused by the war was painted, which undermined the notions of stability inherrent in the American military logic about the war and the ‘green zone’, specifically. I find it hard to believe, as a result, that whether more Iraqis have killed themselves, or whether they were the direct victims of the Coalition in its efforts to ‘bring peace’ and ‘win hearts and minds’, are unrelated events.

    In fact, I would go so far as to suggest that the destabilisation issue addressed by Matthew’s post might well be partly responsible for the horrors visited on many Iraqi civilians, who more often than not are counted as part of the ‘collateral damage’ of war. The reality is that Iraqi lives, by any stretch, seem far more expendable/ disposable than any number of service men and women from the Coalition. More to the point, the efforts to carve up Iraq and the surrounding nations in the quest to control energy, etc., have come at a very high cost in terms of human life and political/ economic consequences.

    On a side note, I would gainsay that President-Elect Obama’s plan for a ‘green revolution’ of US energy needs may, indirectly, benefit those who sit on the vast resources of ‘black gold’ that power the world today.

  56. 56 jamily5
    November 27, 2008 at 19:15

    WHYS,
    Will you regularly put the link to
    “After show discussion”
    on the blog?
    I always forget it and usually don’t get to read much until the show has been broadcast and put to bed.
    THX.

  57. 57 Vijay
    November 27, 2008 at 19:17

    2.The BJP(the political wing of the group that killed Mahatma Gandhi)spreads it message of hatred across India and incites minorities by their actions (Babri Masjid ,Gujrat riots and Malegaon bomb blasts) therefore it isn’t surprising that a criminal like Dawood Ibrahim or disaffected youth turn to violence to protect their community from attack,by committing atrocities as retaliation against oppression and discrimination.
    Their allied organisation , Bajrang Dal encourages attacks on Christians in Orissa and Karnataka.
    A National General Election is coming in February or April 2009 therefore the more communal discord there is the better the chance of a BJP victory.

  58. 59 VictorK
    November 27, 2008 at 19:28

    @Roebert: Islamic terror needs to be confronted on several fronts. One of these is military force. That might not be sufficient in itself, but I can’t agree with those like Selena who seem to think that it must never be entertained (at least by the West).

    It’s not an option for India, but in the West another tactic in the war being waged by Islam is simply to end Muslim immigration and the reception of Muslim asylum seekers. Then there’s the matter of getting tough on Islamists and Jihadists who are already here, with the ultimate aim of castrating Islam as a force in the West.

    Re what you say about Islam ruling the world: I don’t think it’s that farfetched. It’s an orthodox position as far as Islam is concerned and so will always inspire Muslims to violence against non-Muslims (and such violence is explicitly commanded by the Koran). What is there to talk to such people about, except the terms of our surrender? And the conquest of the West can be achieved through non-military means, i.e. demographic transformation (a point that some Muslims have openly boasted of achieving). On current trends Western Europe may very well be Islamicised within 100 years.

    If you’d told an American in 1950 that within 100 years his country would have a Black-Hispanic-Asian majority, he’d have called you insane. We can’t afford to be complacent.

  59. 60 Sole
    November 27, 2008 at 19:28

    I am so sorry for all those who had to experience this! we need to take better care of each other so this type of horror will stop…… and so we can renew some kind of faith in humanity.

  60. 61 katemcgough
    November 27, 2008 at 19:29

    @jamily5
    Of course – here is the link to WHYS after the show.

  61. 62 Vijay
    November 27, 2008 at 19:31

    There may not be as much sympathy for the people of Bombay from South India or North India because Mumbaikers are famous for their rudeness and due to the activities of the Shiv Sena and its splinter party (who want Mumbai and Maharastra to be only for Marathis;just like Deutschland fur Deutsch auslander raus)
    South Indians were refered to as “monkeys” and North Indians have been lynched in the street in broad daylight.

  62. 63 Hunter Shirley
    November 27, 2008 at 19:32

    The Indian security response to the Mumbai terrorist attack was disgracefully inept. Your announcers and political analysts were equally incompetent in failing to criticize the outrageously inept response of Indian police and army.
    In each hotel attacked by terrorists, the military “Special Forces” should have instantly sent three or four dozen security personnel to each floor simultaneously. Instead they sent one small force of “Special Forces” to work its way up floor by floor! This freed the terrorists to climb floor by floor ahead of them breaking in doors and collecting hostages while setting fires as they went!
    Can you imagine?! They left the terrorists free to climb upward floor after floor collecting hostages! All security people needed to do to prevent this was to send police or army security personnel to each floor simultaneously, which would have trapped the terrorists on whatever floor they were on that moment. And that would have prevented them from collecting hostages!
    From the small number of “Special Forces” sent in, your political analysts who observed this should have noted how disgraceful it was to leave all those people trapped in their rooms, waiting for terrorists to break down their doors. Yet no announcer or political analyst on any international broadcasting company noticed this! Notwithstanding the charm and communication skills of your announcers and political analysts, perhaps you should include IQ tests in your hiring criteria.

  63. 64 David Young from the US
    November 27, 2008 at 19:42

    Condemnation by the world community against the cowardly scum that attacked Mumbai is not enough to stop this sort of thing. It’s going to take a global effort against any and all violent extremist movements. They also need to be hunted down and given the only treatment they seem to understand; slow, painful, and inglorious death.

    As a citizen of the United States, I’ve always been taught to believe that this kind of treatment of people was abhorrent and cruel, but taking “the high road” with terrorism obviously hasn’t and won’t work. It’s time to deal with these people at their level and in terms they can understand.

    It’s also about time for moderate religious leaders to step up and become more vocal against religious extremism. Until that happens in conjunction with the more aggressive treatment of terrorists, I don’t see how the world terrorism threat can be dealt with successfully.

  64. 65 rabinder henry
    November 27, 2008 at 19:43

    Another example of India’s failure. The government and the security intelligence lack the tooth and nail to put off such attacks.The political parties have learned only to blame each other after such incidents.This again proves unless Indians shed their inhibitions about caste ,religion ,regionalism,economic inequality and disparity ans stop electing hypocritical politicians these kind of attacks will continue.

  65. 66 Vijay
    November 27, 2008 at 19:51

    Why attack tourism and tourists?
    Incredible India! Is the latest Indian tourism campaign,
    India is neither Incredible nor shining nor rising for the majority of the population.

    Why attack 5***** Hotels ?
    These are the playgrounds of the rich and dens of vice(slags dancing at the Ministry of Sound as the london bomber put it)

    Why target Britons,Americans and Israelis?
    Geopolitics ,Al Queda 101.

  66. 67 Fayia Tamba
    November 27, 2008 at 19:51

    My special thanks and appreciation to the Indian Government. Last week it was a pirate ship that was sinked by the Indian Naval and today, it’s George W.Bush’s enemies (the terrorists)that were killed.

    I will support any Government that will fight terrorism to the last. Who knows about tomorrow? If we don’t take an action now, I might be the one to fall victim in the hands of the terrorists tomorrow.

    May the Almighty God help us to fight terrorists to the uttermost part of the earth in Jesus name. Amen.

  67. 68 VictorK
    November 27, 2008 at 19:51

    @Vijay: that’s another box checked in the list of standard cliches to defend Islamic terror – when Muslims commit violence, attack the past violence of other religions. We’ve already had other dearly-loved favourites such as McVeigh, Iraq & Afghanistan, the conpiracist loons, and ‘the BBC is lying to us again!’. If someone could just mention ‘Haliburton’ that should be a set.

    @Matthew: I think your position is, to be frank, repulsive. How can Afghanistan or Iraq justify this? Are Indian troops in either country? Or do you think that so long as Westerners are targeted (a euphemism for ‘whites’, btw) that makes it OK?

    As it happens, I believe the only way to end Islamic terror directed against the West and Westerners lies in complete disengagement by the West from the Muslim world, and the gradual extrusion of Islam from the West. We should trade and have diplomatic relations with Muslim countries…and that’s it. We should pursue whatever happens to be in the interest of the West, and not waste our blood and treasure trying to bring democracy, liberty, prosperity etc to places like Iraq and Afghanistan. No more humanitarian missions to places that even God has forsaken like Somalia. We should deal with theocrats in Tehran, democrats in Ankara and despots in Riyadh without any preference. The Palestinian issue is something that we should leave to Israel and the Palestinians to sort out, and we should end all economic aid to both sides. Anybody who wants to buy arms from Western dealers should be able to. If as a result the Muslim world continues to destroy itself from within, very well.

  68. 69 jens
    November 27, 2008 at 19:58

    @f anjum,

    strange that these islamic fundamentalist kill in the name of allah then. it is islamic terror, as much as the terror in norther irealand was catholic and protestant. if you kill then the name of your religion then that religion is the cause ot the terror, period.

  69. 70 selena in Canada
    November 27, 2008 at 19:58

    @VictorK

    If you’d told an American in 1950 that within 100 years his country would have a Black-Hispanic-Asian majority, he’d have called you insane. We can’t afford to be complacent.

    Aren’t statements like yours part of the problem? There is no human/universal law which says that Black-Hispanic-Asians should be set apart upon earth to be ruled by Anglo-Saxons, is there?

    But if you believe that, then I understand that you would not wish for anything other than an all out battle to prove who is the greatest.

    As George Bush said, “Bring ’em on.”

  70. 71 jens
    November 27, 2008 at 20:04

    let’s not condem the indian forces etc. ever thouight about how hard it is to defend against a co-ordinated attack? remember how the USA handeled 9/11? such attacks are so devastating that any response seems not to be enough. bare in mind 9 different locations were attacked. how many special forces are immediatly available? how easy/difficult is it to actaully figure out where what is happening?

  71. November 27, 2008 at 20:20

    Untill I was 15 years of age I lived in Calcutta, my parents and I used to visit relatives in Bombay which is now renamed Mumbai, during the world War2, when Japaneese forces were a threat to Calcutta.
    I feel the time is now past due for much stronger actions against all terrorist organisations the world over, which brings me to the point of suggesting that the free nations of the world should join together to get rid of them once and for all.
    These terrorists operate on the basis to kill innocent men women and children is mostly part of its policy and they do not regret doing so, it is not accidental but it is in fact intended.
    Accordingly, all nations effected should band together and declare war on their leaders and followers. Through the media of TV, press etc: they should let it be known, also drop leaflets explaining to the people that live among terrorists that they will be using any means such as bombing areas where it is believed these terrorists and their leaders seek shelter and that innocent people may die as a result. After all in a war this usually happens. These organisations are killing innocent people so that the same methods should be used against them. Perhaps then where law abiding people live, they will see that they are at risk, may very well get rid of these terrorists for their own safety.

  72. 73 VictorK
    November 27, 2008 at 20:22

    @Selena: the statement about the American, circa 1950, is completely true, however little people might not like to hear it. It has nothing to do with Anglo-Saxon supremacy (though I have no problem with an Anglo-Saxon country preserving its Anglo-Saxon traditions and character, in just the same way that other countries preserve their historic traditions and character. The hypocrisy of the liberal-left is their fanatical insistence on ‘diversity’ for the West but not for anyone else). On a practical note, does anyone really believe that a USA that is more like Mexico and Jamaica will be better – socially, politically, culturally, economically – for anyone, including those Americans who look like Mexicans and Jamaicans?

    An all out battle, fought the way I’d like to see it, would certainly leave no doubt about who was ‘the greatest’ (and it may be a bitter pill for many, but Western civilisation is supreme in almost every way that counts; it is the only civilisation that counts; by contrast, the civilisation of Islam has been dead for centuries, and its remains have decayed into the present-day death cult that now passes for Islam) . But I think you know all out war has never been my position (as opposed to the judicious use of violence). Complete disengagement between the West and the Muslim world would make redundant the need for an ‘all out battle’ that could only end in (further) catastrophe for Islam.

  73. 74 Syed Hasan Turab
    November 27, 2008 at 20:30

    Incident of Bombay is correct & true future of India, drama of socalled secularism & Democracy is about to end as the founder father Mr. Ghandhi was big time hipocrate & never be Democrate & Secular.
    Prevailing Election’s in Kashmir in the presance of 800 thousand army with all kind of division in violation of UN resulation of 1948, focefull occupation over Hyderabad State , attack over Golden Temple to eleminate “KHALISTANE” State concept & Tamil movements, appears to me hunch back in BHARAT (India).
    Knowingly unknown Bharat is helpless against Struban & wornout Ghandhi kind of political forces.
    Be brave Bharat to seprate political issues from Terrorisam & Criminal political behaviour with neighboures.
    Bharat try to understand USA & EU with Geographical & political changes in Central ASia, please join the neighbours to cleanup the region from foreign forces & settle down political issues in a peacefull manner, this is what is the best for you otherwise brutal division like former USSR will be your future & hardly 6% of the world population will dominate over 60% of the world’s population in immediate region.

  74. 75 roebert
    November 27, 2008 at 20:35

    First, thanks WHYS for a (distressing but) very comprehensive and mobile report on the situation in Mumbai. Radio journalism at its best.

    Victork: My views on this are closer to yours than may be apparent from what I write. Where we differ is in the approach. Yours seems just too radical to be workable. And I think that, if we view ourselves as the civilised part of the equation, it is up to us to encourage ways to peace, especially by talking. The ‘we don’t talk to terrorists’ argument has to be abandoned in the face of the reality we have to deal with. The same is true of Islam in our midst. The way to peace is not to throw Muslims out, but to begin a clear and frank process of talking with one another, a process that has been stymied by leftist pc taboos. Talking need not mean appeasement. It should actually be anything but appeasement. It should deal with the truth. This hasn’t yet been tried, in spite of the clear fact that the ‘war on terror’ is doomed to failure.

  75. 76 roebert
    November 27, 2008 at 20:41

    Pink at 7.07 pm: Your quote from the Koran has me perplexed: What is meant by ‘causing mischief in the land’?, and isn’t this a convenient clause which can be used to justify blowing up anyone considered to be causing such ‘mischief’? and who decides what the ‘mischief’ is? Is it only the Muslim who decides on this?

  76. November 27, 2008 at 20:47

    @ Ros,

    Great show today in terms of the coverage of the Mumbai Terror Attacks! Listening to all the voices of the Indian people criticising the government (from the Hindi Service blog), as well as those on the ground was such a refreshing departure from the conjecture of the blog, which though useful, seems to have overlooked in some ways the actual terror of the experience. This must be a very dark day for those who live in Mumbai, rich, poor or in-between – a clear statement that terrorism is one of the defining challenges of the twenty-first century, globally.

  77. November 27, 2008 at 20:52

    @ Hunter Shirley,

    You make a very important point. I found myself wondering how prepared are governments like India’s to handle and appropriately deal with issues emanating from the attacks. That doctor who said: “unprecedented, horrifying…” in the BBC report captures it best, in my view. This kind of attack against, whether rich or poor, Americans, Brits, or others was all the more effective in undermining Indian civil society, such as it is, because there seemed such little in the way of infrastructure (?) to deal with it by the Indian Government, as well as that their chief of intelligence (?) was also killed in the attack.

  78. 79 selena in Canada
    November 27, 2008 at 21:02

    @Roebert

    Talking need not mean appeasement. It should actually be anything but appeasement. It should deal with the truth.

    The last thing I would ever advocate is appeasement. In fact, I am quite hard nosed on the fact that I would never give people their own way when they act up.

    You are right. It is the truth we need to uncover. Not your truth, my truth, Victor’s truth, nor the Islamic terrorist truth. We need to lay bare the reality of poverty, disease and abuse and the reasons for it.

    Other than that the cycle will continue. I like to dream that there is a ray of hope because of advanced communication networks but admit I am somewhat naive.

  79. 80 kpellyhezekiah
    November 27, 2008 at 21:17

    May the soul of those who lost their lives at the hands of the terrorist whether they be just gunned down or working to rescue hostages rest in perfect peace. As for the terrorists may the Lord forgive those of them who are alive for they do not know what they are doing. I am shedding tears even as I post this comment. I’ve wept today until now.

  80. 81 kpellyhezekiah
    November 27, 2008 at 21:21

    Arnaud please read the book of Habakuk in the bible.

    Dan you are on the wrong trail

    Selena Let’s wait and see. God bless you my dear sister

    Steve You are completely lost.

  81. 82 VictorK
    November 27, 2008 at 21:27

    @roebert: I think that talking to a group like the Taliban makes sense, because they are serious players with deep roots in Afghanistan’s political landscape. I also happen to think that they are as entitled to defend their country from invasion as anybody else, and by whatever means that they consider necessary. Similarly with a group like al Quaeda, who have made themselves part of the political equation in a place like Iraq, and insofar as they are comprised of indigenees.

    But some terrorists really can’t be dealt with, either because they are too frivolous to be taken seriously, however much carmnage they may be capable of (such as the ignorant and fanatical band of 21/7 Somalis here in London), or because their views are hopelessly incoherent or naive (the 7/7 bombers in London: no British government will change its foreign policy at the dictation of a gang of disaffected youths), or simply because they are psychopaths (and not much more besides – which I suspect applies to anybody who kills for a cause that he hasn’t a direct stake in – e.g. Somalis, Jamaicans and Pakistanis exploding themselves or planting bombs for the sake of Iraqis, Palestinians and Afghans ). When political channels exist for influencing government policy, then terrorists should simply be exterminated (the distinction I’d make in Iraq and Afghanistan is that nobody is obliged to respect democratic channels established under the auspices of an occupying army).

    I probably didn’t express myself as well as I’d have liked to when I wrote about ‘extruding’ the Islamic presence in the West. What I had in mind there was not the physical expulsion of Muslims (something that only a real disaster, such as the detonation of a dirty nuclear bomb in a Western city, could justify as a preventative measure) but the practical elimination of Islam as an ideology (akin to denazification in post-war Germany). Of course, Western politicans wouldn’t say that that was there goal, but it would be (if, for instance, foreign mullahs were not allowed into Britain and the spiritual needs of the Muslim population had to be ministered to by British-born Mullahs, that by itself would go a long way to eliminating Islam as an organised religion over here. But I wouldn’t expect any politician introducing such a requirement to give that as its justification).

  82. 83 Jonathan
    November 27, 2008 at 21:29

    @Selena~

    By starting from the (manifestly erroneous) premise that terrorism is caused by “poverty, disease, and abuse,” you are exactly appeasing terrorists and terrorism at the most fundamental and important level. You imply that they are somehow a consequence of poverty and disease, and that they are somehow fighting it, so while we might deplore their means, their ends are proper.

    In fact, of course, terrorism has nothing at all to do with poverty or disease, except as evidence of poverty of spirit and disease of the soul.

  83. 84 kpellyhezekiah
    November 27, 2008 at 21:32

    My dear brothers and sisters on this blog. What has happened in India today is linked to what is happenning in Thailand and the Dr. Congo and Iraq and Afghanistan and China(the baby food poisoning) and is fully related to the economic recession being experienced in the developed world now. I have been silent for some time now but with the images I’m seeing today I am going to go public with all that I know. Evil must not be allowed to triumph. No!

  84. 85 selena in Canada
    November 27, 2008 at 21:41

    @Jonathan

    How do you arrive at the fact that I am manifestly erroneous?

    Let’s just look at one little thing. Who would fight the wars if every individual on earth was well fed, respected and part of the good life?

    If everyone understood from birth that s/he was as good as everyone else, there would be no need to prove such a thing.

    Of course, if you are of the opinion that terrorists are born bad you will not agree with me.

    I don’t think that anyone is naturally bad. It is my belief that the circumstances of birth and upbringing determine our future beliefs and behavior.

  85. 86 VictorK
    November 27, 2008 at 21:43

    @Selena: the reality of poverty, disease and abuse is for individual sovereign states to deal with. It’s not an international responsibility.

    Poverty, disease and abuse in Muslim countries are just as likely to be caused by adherence to a non-progressive, all-embracing, anti-modern, mentally stultifying religious ideology as by any other cause you could mention (and the absence of rich, happy and non-abusive Muslim societies surely points to something of significance?). Mullahs have been the reason why the World Health Organisation, for instance, has found it so difficult to eradicate polio.

  86. 87 selena in Canada
    November 27, 2008 at 21:56

    @Victor

    Apart from the responsibility factor, aren’t you agreeing with me? Let’s cut the beam. 🙂

  87. 88 kpellyhezekiah
    November 27, 2008 at 21:58

    Long before it became public knowledge I had categorically stated on this site that both the US and Europe was going to go into recession and It has happened. When the real perpetrators of todays diabolic acts as at that time had invaded the the world markets throwing both food and oil prices out of gear I said on this column that it would not last and that oil prices would finally settle at between $50 -$70. This has also come to pass. These evil people are the cause of the economic troubles of both the US and Europe. Just as they are using the politicians in these places to do their dirty works for them, in the middle east and asia they are hiding behind Islam and in africa democracy(full of corruption) and rule of law to do their biddings, but as surely as the Lord lives they will fall into the pit they have dug for the blind world. God bless us all, amen.

  88. 89 kpellyhezekiah
    November 27, 2008 at 22:02

    selena, please keep on educating them. You’ve got the key. Kindly open the door and enter just as how I did and you’ll be shocked by what you will see, my dear sister.

  89. 90 kpellyhezekiah
    November 27, 2008 at 22:07

    victor, the mullahs didn’t just take that position. They were encouraged, coerced and enticed into it by evil people who DID NOT WANT POLIO TO BE ERADICATED because that would lead to they losing money in their so-called fight against polio. They disease must be there sol that year in and year out there would be the need to be given money to fight it, period.

  90. 91 VictorK
    November 27, 2008 at 22:08

    @kpellyhezekiah: I was very alarmed at what you wrote.

    Do ‘they’ have a name?

  91. 92 kpellyhezekiah
    November 27, 2008 at 22:13

    my dear brother Victor, you see, right now in africa, especially in Nigeria we are re-orientating the mullahs and they are seeing the true picture. They are now allowing the vaccinations. And do you know that it was some muslim medical doctors who were responsible for the false educations?

  92. 93 Jonathan
    November 27, 2008 at 22:17

    @selena~

    Let’s stay focused on one thing at a time; it’s clearer that way. Terrorism doesn’t come from the poorest populations in the world, terrorists are not the poorest people in the world, and terrorism doesn’t do anything at all to help any poor people in the world. The two are completely unrelated. Does that help?

    I didn’t say you were erroneous; I said your premise was. You invent a connection that doesn’t exist between terrorism and poverty, which imputes to terrorists a noble cause (helping the poor) which they do not serve or even pretend to serve.

    Terrorism is ideological, not material. It’s a very narrow perspective to imagine that if people were “well fed,” they wouldn’t have malevolent ideologies.

    Clearing the rest of the fog, I didn’t say, and I don’t think, that people are “born bad.” You ask, “Who would fight the wars if every individual on earth was well fed, respected and part of the good life?” Hmmm. No people in human history, or anywhere on earth today, are better fed and richer than Americans, yet something like a quarter million of us are in uniform, even without a draft. If you mean “Who would START wars,” well, all it takes is one bad person in power. But war is rather a wander from the topic here.

  93. 94 F Anjum
    November 27, 2008 at 22:45

    @ Jens
    Millitants in Kashmir are figthing for the freedom of their state, not for Allah. They are still referred to as “Islamic terrorists”.

  94. 95 selena in Canada
    November 27, 2008 at 23:12

    @Jonathan

    Let’s stay focused on one thing at a time; it’s clearer that way. Terrorism doesn’t come from the poorest populations in the world, terrorists are not the poorest people in the world, and terrorism doesn’t do anything at all to help any poor people in the world. The two are completely unrelated.

    If you really believe that the hierarchy which exists across the globe does not contribute to terrorism, then that is your belief.

    My belief, on the other hand, is that in order to begin a real conversation about terrorism it is necessary, but not sufficient, to start from inequality.

    I don’t believe I said that terrorism helps the poor but, in my opinion, the poor and terrorism are intertwined. You cannot separate one from the other, as many people would never join groups or the army if it were not for their economic circumstances.

  95. 96 Robert Evans
    November 27, 2008 at 23:38

    The nine who are in custody should be tried and if / when found guilty they should be executed as soon as possible.

  96. 97 Vijay
    November 28, 2008 at 01:11

    @VictorK
    Unfortunately in India,discrimination,violence and atrocities against “weaker” sections of society are a daily reality.
    India is a” might is right”, “facts on the ground” “tit for tat””eye for an eye”kind of place.

  97. November 28, 2008 at 06:09

    What is the universal meaning of terrorism? What is the universal cause of terrorism?

    We all speak of terrorism, label some actions terrorism, and label some people terrorist; but have not asked the two questions that every intelligent man who honestly wants to solve an undesirable circumstance should and must ask: What is the meaning of terrorism? what is the cause of terrorism?

    Except we ask these two questions, find answers to them that would satisfy every party to the violence in the world — the USA leading one side and Muslims leading the other side — and address the issue based on the answers, there will NEVER be and end to it.

    the basis of my argument is that cause begets effects or consequences and except cause is addressed and removed, effect or consequence will NEVER go away.

    Do the powerful governments — especially the USA government — have the moral and political WILL and OBLIGATION to address cause in this issue?

    Prince Awele Odor

    Lagos, Nigeria

  98. 99 Dinka Aliap Chawul,Kampala
    November 28, 2008 at 10:20

    Hi dear siblings. Terrorisms is a world major threats especially NON-MUSLIMS and JEWS arround the world whom they(Arabs/Muslims) considered as PAGANS, WoW these people needs a world actions-reactions to curve these threats they poses on the entire world but my warning for these guys is that they should know why SOVIET UNION,USA & GREAT BRITISH were broken down economically,socially and politically in other way.Therefore these people are not against NON-MUSLIMS & JEWS only but they are also destroying the presents of Islams as a religion and i hope that they will complete its destruction( violence religion(Islams)) in a decades to come. Critisms and suiciding are not new to me so you highly welcome to do so…….THE WRITTER IS A ONE SEEKING FOR EDUCATION HELPS AFTER VIOLENCES EXPERIENT IN SUDAN.

  99. 101 Tilak Pokharel
    November 28, 2008 at 12:27

    Mumbai episode, growing Maoist insurgency (they call it “Naxlite movement”) and series of other violent incidents inside India suggest that India has to make its own house clean before presenting itself as a lion or a big brother in the region and the world. Now, what do we as Nepalis learn from India? If this incidents are to become so frequent, their advances in the IT, science, military and other areas are meaningless.

  100. 102 Justin from Iowa
    November 28, 2008 at 13:19

    Its a terrible Travesty, but also a reminder that terrorism isn’t just a Westerner’s problem, as often gets portrayed in the media. The US and other western country’s methods and some of their motives for fighting their “war on terror” we might question, but whatever their motives, what they are fighting against IS worth fighting against.

  101. 103 Tom (of Melbourne)
    November 28, 2008 at 13:26

    Terrorism is a tactic. It is a tactic employed by desperate individuals, groups, or governments to further their own goals. These goals may be economic, social or ideological in nature.

  102. 104 Roberto
    November 28, 2008 at 13:37

    RE “” India has to make its own house clean before presenting itself as a lion or a big brother in the region and the world. “”
    —————————————————————————————-

    ——– Exactly the point I made previous talking about the rise of new powers as US power declines.

    Really, there is no so called superpower left. US and Russia still capable of nuclear destruction of most of the world, but as military operations goes, greatly reduced from their heydays.

    Where is the matching rise in Muslim organisation to combat the jihadist threat to their families and self proclaimed religious beliefs? I know the Saudi’s have a well financed anti terror organization, and Egypt/Jordan have done well tamping down incidents before they happen.

  103. November 28, 2008 at 16:29

    Rawpolitics 7.14pm Nov 27th,

    Thanks a lot for acknowledging other lesser well known factors that should be put under the microscope and be given a proper arena for debate and discussion, whether it is here on WHYS, or in the wider arena of broader and the main media networks. But with the odd exception, these issues are discarded within the current restrictive media frameworks and it is so evident for all to see for those who have eyes to see. If only we’d all get off our backsides and stop accepting the information that is being broadcast and thrust at us on a daily basis so as we can try to gain a clearer understanding as to what is going on in any given situation. Unless we truly make that effort it never will be examined, open to question at any real level, or given a second thought, because thorough and honest investigative journalism has almost died and only very few “bona fide journalists” are left who wholly warrant the title and truly put themselves and their lives on the line for “the story.” But embedded journalists, half hearted foreign reporters and received information doesn’t sit comfortably or exactly fit with that criterion. The media wants to convey for our supposed benefit, through newspaper, the main TV and radio channels one version of events and one only, despite other factors that could and should be examined.
    More than ever we’re being sold a dud and being done a thorough disservice by the news gathering media, whose duty it should be to discover as much evidence as possible and get to the truth and heart of a story. We seem satisfied with only getting a kernel of truth, instead of submitting governments, politicians, businessman and all their nefarious activities to honest and forthright investigation.
    Mumbai might be as we are being told it is, it might not, but without the freedom and unfettered access to all aspects of the situation and events there, and all sides being examined, then we can I’m afraid be none the wiser as to explicitly why it happened, what lead up to this, interior and exterior factors, the region as a whole, the history of regional conflicts, sectarian divides, all people involved at any level be subject to questioning, otherwise we will never know.
    But the media moguls and powers that be will have you believe a simplistic scenario of Us versus Them. Good versus evil, Wrong versus right, Moderate Western powers or Western model governments, versus Moslem radical fanatics, Al Qaeda versus the Christian moral West, terrorism versus good democratic honest governments, etc, etc, ad finitum.

  104. 106 CJ McAuley
    November 28, 2008 at 19:28

    Despite the general progress of “humanity”, it appears that it is incremental, at best. I am quite tired at hearing “god” referred to so often in these days and hours; as if “god” has anything to do with these depraved acts! Religion is a form of power and power is often held through religion. Until the day when a truly ecumenical paradigm takes hold on this planet, things like this will occur. To quote Robert Burns: “Man’s inhumanity to man
    Makes countless thousands mourn!”
    My thoughts are with all those effected by this disgusting event.

  105. 107 renju
    November 29, 2008 at 12:29

    one can’t beleive this thought process of “eye for an eye ..kill them all ,bring em on “..kinda
    hollwoodian crap and thinking people get goosebumps or energised
    listening to that..

    what do you think the history of the world has been upto this point except this ‘eye for eye,kill your opponents and their generation’….
    if this is the new idea to fight terrorrism ;then you have to assume those people who think so are in some kinda “histotric kintergarden”

    …from egyptian ,romans ,crusaders,mohammadians,and
    all the middle age massacares and all the small
    kingdoms that had existed in the indian
    planes “wipe out ur opponents and conquer them all”
    has been always the “motto”

    so to think that this is some kind of
    new idea of the brave to fight back or kill or be killed kind of crap..or;that will end every trouble that exist on this planet…the baggage
    we carry from our seperate or collective history is what has been our biggest curse

    well if you take care of all the terrorist today by some”magic wand’ of western imagination the hate will be transfered
    to another generation and they will wait until they can unleash it on the future generation to come….

    so may be,not being hyperboil at every inhuman terror acts and to restrain ourlselves to react in the same way and to..move forward with more resolve ,to
    undermine such acts on humanity can been seen as far far better resolution than the ideas of souls who are
    stiill in some theatre waiting for a hollywood or bollywood style end…..

  106. 108 Aditi
    November 29, 2008 at 13:14

    My grandmother is 72 years old, and she was narrating her experiences of her formative years, deeply interwoven with the freedom movement.
    She was brought up in traditional Hindu fashion, but went to a Christian school with even Muslim classmates. There was no hatred, no ostracism between races and religions.
    Their lives were heavily influenced by Gandhi, Nehru, Patel, and other stalwarts of the Independence movement. These leaders created an India, and my grandmother laments how this India has changed.
    The India we know now is not the one Gandhi dreamt of creating. In her opinion, the present day politicians have forgotten Gandhi and his ideals, the very ones which gained India her freedom.
    She asks, “Would we leave India in their hands? Is the result of their leadership, this deeply scarred country, what we want to leave for future generations?”

  107. 109 Syed Hasan Turab
    November 29, 2008 at 22:22

    Infact India change after arrival of evil Ghandhi, full with hate & Hipocracy. The best Indian secular histry start from Mugal king of Akbar, muslims never hate any religion & never force to any one to join then unwillingly.
    Muslims claim seprate land because they want to live in the peace & this how Pakistan appear on the world map.
    In violation of UN resolution India is heavily involve in crime against humanity in Kashmir & presance of 800 thousand Indian army in Kashmir proof it.
    In violation of International Laws Indian Army Occupied “HYDERABAD STATE” from 61 years, first they robbed to prominant muslim families the occupied the land.
    Tamil are still victom of Indian Govt & are open civil violation movement is going on from 50 years.
    Siks are suffering with emotional crises since the holliest place i.e.”GOLDEN TEMPLE” been ruined & Bombort by Indian Hindoo Army, & are in demand of seprate state ” KHALISTAN” since 1984. A pararl Govt in this regard established in England under kind supervision of Mr. JAGEET SINGH CHOAN, & all these people are ready to go back to india.
    India have long histry of IAEA violations too beside UNO & International rules & regulation’s.With all these blunder’s every thing is possible in this Indian human desaster of the world, india please learn Crystel Clean & Clear way to learn as hard way choice is yours.

  108. December 1, 2008 at 06:18

    Independent, reliable sources says,
    Pakistan is not involved in the incidents,
    occured in India recently.

    The team, consisting on the experts,
    investigating the matter,
    still failed to reached the real conclusion.

    But inspite of it,
    indian leaders carelessly issuing statements,
    in which they are directly, indirectly describing Pakistan responsible for.

    It is very dengrous game,
    they are playing,
    and don’t know the senstivity of the situation,

    God forgive me,
    in case confrontation taken plsce,
    it would be nuclear warwhich automaticlly result of mass destruction,
    who would be winner?
    those hatching conspiracies and insurgencies.

  109. 111 subroto
    December 11, 2008 at 09:36

    A lot of the victims in the mumbai attacks were muslims as well, and a lot of muslims(not all) are angry about the terror acts as well. We need their support as well, lets not blame it on islam and loose their support. The same mistake the Us made with iraq initially.
    The muslim community in mumbai even refused to bury the bodies of these terrorists in their graveyard..thats how mad they were at the terrorists. Lets not divide ourselves now by blaming it on islam. Right now muslims, hindus and christians can take on the terrorists collectively. United we stand divided we fall..
    subroto , calcutta


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