Sex education’s a live issue today- right around the world.
A report from Africa says many kids complain that what they’re taught about sex is not much use. They say that it’s all too moralistic – nothing to do with life in the real world. And they fear their ignorance puts them at greater risk of HIV/ AIDS.
In many parts of the world, sex education is a very touchy subject. But what’s the problem? Should we just get on with making sure kids know what they need to know, for their own safety?
In the UK, the government’s just announced all kids in state schools will have sex education starting, from the age of five. It’s caused outrage in some quarters.
So what do you think kids and young people be told about sex? And who should tell them? Their parents or their teachers? If it’s against your principles, should you able to prevent your child getting sex education?
In the US, Sarah Palin– despite the pregnancy of her own daughter- is against sex education and favours an abstinence-only approach.
In some US abstinence programmes, teachers can only tell kids about contraception if they talk about its defects and failure-rate. The US has spent $1.5 billion on abstinence education in the past 25 years but many say there’s no proof it works. Now there’s a new bill before Congress that would mean wider ranging sex-education would be funded.
Good sound common-sense? Or are we forcing sex education on people when they’re too young to understand what it’s all about?
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BBC World Have Your Say 
I have a question for the parents who read this blog. Do you REALLY think that if your child gets good, useful sex education, it’ll make them go out and start sleeping with lots of random people?
What’s the real issue here? Fear of having the ‘right’ type of education? Sex is only for making babies in marriage so you don’t need to learn about safe sex b/c it’ll only be with your partner? Fear of turning your children into little perverts?
For guys reading this: if you do nothing else, carry some condoms with you. And hetero guys: get a basic grounding in female anatomy — ie what is where. Trust me, your wife/girlfriend will thank you for it someday.
Do you REALLY think that if your child gets good, useful sex education, it’ll make them go out and start sleeping with lots of random people?
There have been a few on here who argue that by educating, you are enabling…
hhhmmm…
“I have a question for the parents who read this blog. Do you REALLY think that if your child gets good, useful sex education, it’ll make them go out and start sleeping with lots of random people?”
I’m not a parent, but I’ve been to school, and had sex education, and I know kids view it as a permission slip to do exactly what you describe.
RE “” A report from Africa says many kids complain that what they’re taught about sex is not much use. “”
——————————————————————————————————
——– Apparently being an adult in Africa not much use in preventing the spread of sexually transmitted disgraces and diseases.
The whole culture appears to be sick from the millions of marauding rebels and troops raping, mutilating and looting to the highest per capita existance of HIV/AIDS infections.
There have always been tribal wars and such, but nothing on the mindless scale of what is currently happening. The continent is not self-substaining any more. There has to be some sort of African cultural transformation for their children to have any chance. No amount of rice, beans, and water pumps can cure the internal dilemma.
Nelson Mandela was a start, but where is the next great African patriot to provide the leadership? It appears their best and brightest are fleeing for healthier climes.
Let’s thing logically here. If you actually had a teacher tell the truth, that pot is harmless, if they taught that in a drug education class, do you think that would encourage or discourage kids from smoking pot? When a teacher says something is “okay” either by just describing it as something that just happens, or says something is harmless (though nothing is harmless, especially sex), it really is a permission slip. I know had I thought pot was harmless in high school I would have smoked it then. Teachers have a lot of power over their students. If teachers had pushed particular political candidates, then students would have taken on those views as well.
So even in sex education if/when they teach about STDs, it’s still going to be “but if you use a condom, it’s much safer”, and that will be viewed as the permission slip. Sorry if it doesn’t agree with you, but having sex really young, especially for girls, really messes them up. Society will not be better off with lots of people with massive baggage and commitment issues, unless we like crime and children with no self esteem.
@ Brett
by educating, you are enabling…
And, if you’ll excuse me, that’s dumb. It’s the educational equivalent of plugging your ears, closing your eyes and going “lalalalalalala” really loud. Knowledge is never a bad thing.
If the statement is ‘educating is enabling’, then the logical converse of that is ‘if you don’t teach your kid, they won’t have sex’. Because children aren’t curious. And orgasms don’t make you feel good.
Ask Gov. Palin’s daughter how her lack of sex ed helped her stay pure.
Some form of safe-sex education is an absolute MUST for people these days. There are way too many bad STIs out there to not have this knowledge. It’s the same as saying everybody who drives a car should know how to change a tire. And believe me, you’d rather have your kids learn this stuff in school or from you than from the internet.
US sex education programs tend to emphasize abstinence, yet the US has one of the highest teen pregnancy rates in the developed world (source). This should be a pretty big hint that abstinence-only programs don’t work.
@ Shaun
Well, I’m a parent but probably not typical of the ones you’re asking your question of.
I believe that sex education should start the first time the child asks a question about sex–in my experience that’s usually between 18 months and 2 years old. As long as you answer simply but accurately and keep doing so as the questions get more difficult, the child should be fine.
To answer your specific question, there are plenty of sexual influences on children in this world. A good education about the facts is more likely remove some of the pressure on your children to “sleep with random people”.
Sex education should be taught as soon as it can be, at the earliest of age possible and by responsible individuals. Too many taboos exist that deny human pleasure that need not exist. Human population growth will begin to be controlled by the self control and choice of each individual. There will come to be more knowledge and medical advancements to promote sex and enhance it’s pleasure.
@ Shaun
That’s fine and dandy, but it’s still a permission slip. Do you understand what’s going to happen when it’s the norm for 12 year olds to be having sex, what basket cases these people will be when they’re adults?
You may want to deny it, but sex, really early, really, really messes people up, especially girls. These girls will one day grow up, not be capable of adult relationships, will have children, and then raise them the same way, and the cycle will get worse and worse. It will result in boys and girls with zero self esteem, more crime, etc. There is already systematic wide virtually zero self esteem these days, that leads to very, very bad behavior. If you think crime and STDs are a problem today, it will only get worse.
I was recently asked, “if you are opposed to abortion, how can you support a “pro-baby killer” candidate. I explained that I vote for results not rhetoric. I am an atheist, so it makes it a little easier to divorce myself from the whole moralistic attribute of the issue. It is simple, one candidate is opposed to abortion and feels they should be outright banned in all cases. That ideology is very close to mine. However their approach is an unrealistic abstinence only policy that has been shown to lead to more abortion. They like to water it down with “per 1000” figures. Multiple studies have shown that abstinence only leads to no reduction in “risky behavior.”
But his opponent believes that abortions are a problem along with teen pregnancy. He doesn’t believe that “choice” should be removed, but rather the situation. An idea i find appalling and out of touch with reality. However, his policies are that of well rounded sex education implemented to age appropriate programs. This has been shown to reduce risky behaviors, and by extension teen pregnancy and abortions.
The net reduction in abortions comes from comprehensive sex education.
@ Roy
Are you sure about that? The education I got did not focus on Abstinence.
@ lee roy sanders
Perhaps those taboos are what prevents 100% of the population from having herpes and HPV, given you cannot prevent either?
Self control in the society of instant gratification?? Don’t make me choke on my breakfast!
You may want to deny it, but sex, really early, really, really messes people up, especially girls. Society will not be better off with lots of people with massive baggage and commitment issues, unless we like crime and children with no self esteem.
This statement needs attitude education. If this is the result of the sex education that is currently being taught, then I despair!
@ Lawyer Steve
Your post raises a good point: is it possible to ‘educate’ and give the facts without giving it some sort of moral or good/evil framework?
Is it possible, using your pot example, to say “this is a drug, here are the effects and side effects. But at the end of the day it’s your choice.”?
We seem to be approaching this issue from different ends. I’m working under the hypothesis that young people are curious and will have sex regardless of what their parents say. If I’m reading your argument right, your hypothesis is that young people won’t have sex UNLESS they’re told about it. Out of sight, out of mind.
We all make mistakes. Bad decisions, bad hook-ups, being needy in a time of emotional stress. We have to live with our own consciences when we make mistakes…. but if it is at all preventable, we shouldn’t have to live with an STI.
@ Selena
Wow, just wow. Yes, 12 year old girls having sex results in sane women… Please.. The younger a girl is when she starts out, the bigger of a basketcase she becomes. You apparently aren’t aware of the effects of self esteem and how it impacts all aspects of someone’s life.
The problem is the the people fighting the introduction of sex education. They are doing immense disservice to humanity especially to very many young people of the Africa. In the face of the ravages of diseases such as AIDS, I am of the view that the young should be educated so as to be make informed choices.
As an undergraduate student, I remember we used to run monthly talk shows on various topics around youth sexuality and these sessions used to be very popular among students. We interpreted this to mean that there is a gap out there that needs to be filled. It makes sense to begin early in life.
Herbert
Nairobi
Remove the log from your own eye Steve!
@ Shaun
I’m not saying that “out of sight, out of mind”. Of course some will have sex regardless of whether their parents would allow it, or if they have sex education. But some others wouldn’t. But when you have something in school, from an authority figure, it functions as a permission slip. So kids that were unlikely to have had sex would be more like to do so.
@ Selena
Care to back that up? You are in some serious denial if you don’t think that self esteem is important, and sex early, especially in girls, really messes with self esteem. Throw away the “empowerment” foolishness, and sex, really messes up young girls. Sorry, but that sex and the city lifestyle, really makes for head cases. Beginning that at a younge age, will make just younger headcases, with more baggage and issues and the inability to have an adult relationship.
Back up what? That I think there are more people out there than girls who are seriously mess up?
Your statements about woman and girls (throughout this Blog) suggest that you have gotten the wrong messages somewhere. Was it from your sex education?
@ Selena
Calmness, please. Let’s not forget the different viewpoints between our two countries. Canada lies somewhere in between Europe and the US in terms of sexual freedom and liberation.
@ Steve
Sex education is not just “here’s this position, here’s that position, this goes here.” A well-rounded sex-ed program involves everything from teaching safer sex practices, to psycho-social hangups, to the emotional consequences and trials that occur if you have sex too early. It endeavours to be a holistic process and it HAS to be taught like such.
I’m going to say you’ve mixed up the cause-and-effect of sex = neuroses. If a 12 year old is having sex, it won’t CAUSE her to become a basketcase. Chances are she already IS a basketcase, or she wouldn’t be HAVING random sex. Now, it doesn’t help but unless I’m mistaken, most emotional issues that manifest themselves in adolescence have their roots in early childhood.
@ Shaun
Actually is does cause it. Girls with daddy issues will cause them to have improper relationships, so they will be single mothers, and then will raise daughters with daddy issues and the cycle will repeat and only get worse. Also the daddy issues makes women pick poor choices in men, and many girls are sexually abused, which means they’re pretty much handicapped emotiotionally for the rest of their lives. It’s a process that will get only worse and worse.
The problem with sex education is the ‘education’ bit. You see kids just don’t take adults seriously any more when it come to ‘education’. Too many lies,so much cheating, so much blatant hypocrisy. They let the adult “blah blah blah” away, because that’s what seems to make them happy, and then go off and do their own thing based on their own deductions and conclusions.
Kids don’t need sex education any more than dogs do.
AIDS was not started or proliferated by children. Bear that in mind.
Given the amount of children on the planet, the percentage of unwanted and unhappy pregnancies amongst them is minute, something you cannot say about the adult population.
Who does need sex education are the adults.
Steve,
Let us look at this logically. First, Pot is not harmless. IT is considerably less harmful then beer and cigarettes, but it is not harmless. left to their own devices, many kids are uninformed or misinformed into believing it is harmless and do it anyway.
Sex is harmful. Believe it or not, the results of which are understood by many parents, let alone their kids. There are a few sex ed radio shows on in this market. I am always amazed that once a week a teen caller will call into the show and ask, “is it true you can’t get pregnant if you, (enter your favorite urban legend here)”
Here is two bits of logic for you. 1) if you stuck a boy and a girl on an island who never heard about sex, would they figure it out. with about 90% certainty they would. Hormones drive the curiosity. You can’t control that.
The second bit of logic is this. “Sex ed” goes on whether you want it to or not. The kids who do figure it out are going to be the ones educate the ones who haven’t yet. Now when your 13 year old daughter is sitting there listening to the pleas of a 13 year old boy, do you want her only source of information coming from their hormonal boy who says you can’t get pregnant doing it standing up, or would you rather the logic of a respected teacher be a competing argument.
Calmness, please. Let’s not forget the different viewpoints between our two countries.
LOL Thanks Shaun for reminding me that most Canadians don’t blame everything on women. We know that there are just as many messed up boys as there are girls.
I guess I will just have to leave Steve to his own reality and the American woman here. 🙂
@ Steve
So having sex at 12 causes daddy issues? Because that’s what I got from your post.
Last time I checked, daddy issues start younger than 12 — like when you’re still using the word ‘daddy.’
@ Selena
http://www.todaysparent.com/teen/article.jsp?content=20060505_130144_4040&page=1
@ selena
I know several canadian women, they actually helped me base my views, lack of self esteem, sexual abuse, started having sex at a young age..
You would attack anything I say, even if I said the sky is blue.
Girls who have sex young have low self esteem. It affects every aspect of their lives, and their relationships. It makes them make poor decisions that not just affect themselves, but also others. You can feel free to deny it as much as you want, but it won’t make the problem go away.
@ Steve
You’re putting the cart before the horse. I’ll deconstruct your argument to show you.
Girls with daddy issues will cause them to have improper relationships
Right there, where you say ’cause them to,’ is a statement of a place in time. Or passage of time. It implies that something happened in the past is having an effect on the present. The past being before they started having sex. You can only get ‘daddy issues’ from ‘daddy.’ Hence the term ‘daddy issues.’
Also the daddy issues makes women pick poor choices in men, and many girls are sexually abused, which means they’re pretty much handicapped emotiotionally for the rest of their lives.
Sadly this is true. Some women pick bad men because they saw how their dad treated them/their mother. But again, it is something that happened early in life and is a CAUSE of the deviant sexual behaviour. Not a symptom.
They’re making poor choices BECAUSE of a previous early trauma. They’re not having previous early trauma BECAUSE of poor choices.
Face it, teenagers are going to have sex, regardless of whether or not they have had a sex education class. Teaching them about the risks involved with sex, as well as how to mitigate these risks, can only help them.
@ Shaun
Wrong. Women with daddy issues raise girls that have daddy issues, and begin having sex at a young age. Sex doesn’t cause daddy issues, but daddy issues causes early sex in girls. Daddy issues also leads to commitmentphobia and promiscuity because of the needing approval from multiple men. They use men as a self esteem boost, but since they cannot commit, since daddy ran out on her, she moves on to the next guy.
The more mothers we have that have daddy issues means they will likely pick men they won’t have an LTR with, meaning the daughter will grow up to have daddy issues and the cycle repeats.
@Shaun
Do you REALLY think that if your child gets good, useful sex education, it’ll make them go out and start sleeping with lots of random people?
On the contrary, I think that sex education is the way to prevent your children from having random sex and the risk that involve this practice. Or at least, if they decide to have several sex partners, they will be more careful.
I have some friends/relatives that got pregnant in their teens, they (an the guys who got them pregnant) didn’t know many basic concepts about sex or the use of contraceptives… that is why they got pregnant! And they were lucky not to get any STD…
I agree with Bob. I am also one of those non-typical parents that think sex education should start the moment your child ask you “what is this?, why don’t I have a ‘thing’ like him?” And the answer is: “that is your vagina and you don’t have a penis because you are a girl.” As simple as that…
Finally, sex education is also a very good way to protect your children from sex abuse. Child rapists tend to prey in children that are clueless about sex or that regard sex as a taboo subject.
@ Shaun
“They’re making poor choices BECAUSE of a previous early trauma. They’re not having previous early trauma BECAUSE of poor choices”
That’s valid at the beginning, the trauma causes the poor choices. But then as adults they continue to make poor choices. Then those poor choices leads to more trauma, then more poor choices, more trauma.
@ Selena
Aw heck I’ve seen my fair share of bad guys. And I empathise with you — just go to a bar on any given night to see some sterling examples of ‘manliness.’ Idiot meatheads rutting around in an alcohol-fuelled stupor.
Frankly I’m surprised you ladies manage to root through all the feces and find a decent guy.
@ Shaun
If you go to a bar looking for a relationship, then you deserve what you find there. There’s a lot of crappy women out there too.
@ Steve
I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said so far. I’ve witnessed that behaviour first-hand. The question these days is not “do you have issues?” it is “Are my issues and your issues compatible?”
Where you lose me is how you can infer that sex education somehow makes the daddy issues worse.
By your own admission, these are things that happened earlier in life. If, as you say, these girls are making poor choices by getting pregnant and perpetuating the cycle, wouldn’t sex education (ie use of contraceptives) at least HELP them by, oh I don’t know, PREVENTING them from having a child and stopping the cycle?
@ Shaun
My point is is that sex education will, by functioning as a permission slip, cause more young kids to have sex. Not all girls with daddy issues have sex young, but more would, and then their issues will only get worse, more quickly. It doesn’t matter when someone with daddy issues has a kid, they could have one at 15 or 35, and the result will be the same. The kid is going to be messed up. So basically more sex will be encouraged by this, and the problems we have will only get worse.
I’m sure just about every guy on here has been involved with women like I’ve described, and you know what a nightmare that can be. Imagine more and more women like that, and imagine what will happen to society.
Sex education; why not. If parents are against and they are afraid, as i read in top post, to turn there kids in to little perverts. Do those parents also tell there kids that watching MTV movie clips, movies etc is bad. Do they shut down the tellie and have a parentcontrol-lock on it? SEX is one of the main topics of this century, because its more accepted to talk open about it.
Sex eduction is just an instrument for information. To prevent and to teach norms and values. It doesnt exclude that unsafe sex will happen, that sex on very young age will occure. But it can elavate the awernous of unsafe sex. I think 2/3 of the class will learn and actually will think about it and 1/3 just won’t.
I say too all people against Sex eduction, dont keep living in the past. The days of non-sexual talks are over. It helps too be aware of the topics of the present and sex is part of that, as well is drugs. Give them some rubbers to play it safe, because we can’t control the life outside the family house. You can’t be a 24hour watch.
My experience: To talk about it keeps the conversation open and accepted. To neglect and to forbid is asking for a rebellious attitude.
@Steve
Girls who have sex young have low self esteem
Obviously, and the low self esteem problem comes from way back time, when they were below 4. The first four years of life are the most important in the personality/emotional makeup of the individual. Self-esteem is built in those years. If the parents were crappy, didn’t love their children, etc. the result is children with low self esteem who, in many cases, will start having sex at a very young age.
So giving your children a good emotional environment, loving them, helping them to built a high self-esteem, etc. will result in happy and responsible children who would listen to their parents about the importance to wait until the right time to have sex and be responsible when engaging in sexual relationships.
Hopefully, when my kids take sex-ed class in school they would already know the information from me and my husband. And I am hopeful also that when they decide to have sexual relationships it will be after careful thinking and with the right person.
I think if young adults have the right information, they would behave differenlty.
Sex education should be encouraged to thrive.
It should however take into consideration the ages of the kids who would be taught.
Parents should come out of their shelves and discuss sex education topics with their kids. Well informed children act and think differently, i am writing from experience.
We can’t just close our eyes and wish it away, its staring at our kids on television, on billboards, over the radio, in the streets, everywhere.
Sex is everywhere, so if they get the rigt information, they would be better persons” if you are not informed, you would be deformed’.
Information is power.
@ Luz
I agree completely, but the problem is that so so many people (especially girls) have low to no self esteem. It’s the norm these days. So they are having sex earlier, and getting even more messed up, and it lowers their self esteem even further.
perhaps in addition to instead of sex ed, some self esteem education since parents are obvioulsy failing iat this? The cost to society of low self esteem is going to be catastrophic.
Well said, Bob!
I am a parent of 3 girls and 3 boys, all have sex education which is applicable to their age. They ask I (we) tell, there is no shame, there is no silly myths, there is only the answer to the question and that is it.
I can’t see why this is hard. Teachers have the overhead projector and we have a pencil and paper – “Where does a baby come from?” Ask my kids, they will tell you – and why certain things can go wrong etc etc etc.
Sex isn’t a taboo, it is a talking point that our children should know about. The mechanics are easy – the emotional aspect has been the harder part to explain.
No puns of any sort are intended! I just can’t find a simpler way of saying what I think.
Humans fashion, employ, and modify all sorts of tools. Whether a broad-headed axe, a computational algorithm, or written symbolism and spoken sounds of language; the desiderata of pedagogy is always the same: The student is introduced to the tool, shown it uses, cautioned concerning its inappropriate uses or willful misuse, taught how it might be properly maintained, carefully guided along a contrived obstacle course involving real life uses of the tool, then beset with an appropriately difficult assessment examination. How does this tool (sex) differ from all others? It, as does ant tool, differs only in its importance!
My opinion is: A culture’s lack of willingness to train their children in proper uses of humanity’s most important tool – its ability to procreate – is indicative of immaturity, lack of foresight, or just plain ritualized stupidity.
g
@Steve
Completely agree!!! Even I think a pre-requisite course to take sex ed should be self esteem ed.
Low self esteem is the base of many problems in teenagers nowadays, like drug abuse, eating dissorders, early pregnancy, depression, etc. All is about lack of love.
@Will
The mechanics are easy – the emotional aspect has been the harder part to explain.
For sure!
@ Luz Ma
Problem is, society thrives on low self esteem. The left and the right both need people to have low self esteem. The pharmaceutical industry needs it as well. Look at any woman’s magazine, 75% of it is devoted to advertisements for beauty products. Walk into a drug store, and 30% of the store is dedicated to makeup. All things to make you look different than what you are, all the get the approval of either men or other women. It’s completely systematic, even the rampant materialism behind all these credit crisis garbage is due to the “if I had this, then I’d be happy” which normally is from low self esteem. I think the economy needs low self esteem to function as it current is disfunctioning.
How typical, yet another topic that opens the way to blame women and girls for sexual promiscuity. I don’t even know where to start, so I’ll just jump in:
—–
@ Brett
“There have been a few on here who argue that by educating, you are enabling…hhhmmm…”
So is your “hmmmm” to be interpreted as ignorance is bliss? Logic has proven that if a situation is ignored, the situations does NOT disappear. The problem only gets bigger. Educating the young adults is the best tool for empowering them to make wise decisions.
—-
@ Steve
“When a teacher says something is “okay” either by just describing it as something that just happens, or says something is harmless (though nothing is harmless, especially sex), it really is a permission slip.”
Wow you never falter in your absurd claims and thruthiness. Sex is dangerous and comes with a lot of responsibility especially at a young age. What kind of incompetent teachers taught you about sex education. The true is not a permission slip to be promiscuous and irresponsible, it’s a information for you to arm yourself and know the responsibility that comes with your actions.
Anakor Jeremiah
http://www.anakorez.blogspot.com | anakorez@hotmail.com | 217.21.81.202
I guess the reason why it seems as if sex education does not yield fruit in africa is that while some parents are reluctant to talk sex matters with their children, Curious young ones are very attentive to what looks like Sex Education but Deception in disguise, and what happens is that these false teachers brainwash whoever falls at their mercy.
In public places the modes of dressing is totally different from the messages preached about sex and indecent dressing even in our Churches.
It sure would work better if Mum and Dads learn sex education thesame way the learnt Family planning so they can have convincing logics whey they finally open up to discuss sex:
What it means,
when it is said to be,
what might likely suggest it,
what to know about it,
AND IMPORTANTLY Sexual Safety precautions for the uninformed who most usually become victims.
Steve, in free countries like the US it is difficult to control children by not telling them the truth. By telling children that smoking pot is dangerous, teachers discredit themselves when children find out for themselves that it is harmless.
The information they get from their local drugs dealer then turns out to be far more reliable than what they are told in schools and by their parents. Then, what will stop them from experimenting with other more dangerous drugs?
Let’s get one thing straight here. Sex education isn’t a “permission slip”.
The sexual influences and pressures on children come from all sorts of directions these days: TV, films, magazines, records…and, most important, peer pressure.
Add to this the fact that teenagers are raging bags of hormones and it’s obvious that sex education has little or nothing to do with the likelihood of having sex at a young age.
As Dwight asked, who do you want your 13 year old daughter learning about sex from? A 13 year old boy? Or responsible parents and, as appropriate, teachers? For that matter, who do you want the 13 year old boy learning about sex from? Other 13 year old boys? The copy of Penthouse he’s shoplifted from the corner shop? Or the same responsible parents and teachers?
Finally, just to say it’s amusing to see non-parents, some with their own hang-ups, pontificating about the best way to raise children. You soon learn that they’re all individuals and all the theories in the world aren’t worth a thing when you have your own and discover they’re small people, not robots.
Yes, sex ed is a permission slip. people, PLEASE, think back to your childhood. Don’t think from the perspective of being an adult. PRetend you are 5-16 again. Teachers were massive authority figures for us. If a teacher told me “the water is safe” I would trust them and drink water if they told me.
You need tot hink from the persepetive of how a child things, not how you think.
I first recieved sex ed when I was 8 and if done corretctly and focusing on the right aspects I think that it is a great age to start teaching the subject. Remember that there whole subject doesn’t need to be taught in one go, but phased over the years.
My teacher did a matter of factly description of the purpose of sex in reproduction (inlcuding some graphic (for a kid) videos of child birth), never pointing out that it was enjoyable as well. We were also told about sexually transmitted dieseases. We were taught some basic facts and then had all the bad stuff explained and the good stuff left out. As a young teengage my thoughts on the subject was why would anybody bother with such an act.
When I compare those of us who reached pubity who had recieved this class to those who hadn’t, there was far less fascination about sex by those who had recieved the classes. It lacked the tabboo status to us.
In the end its about how you teach it as well as when you teach it.
@ Shaun in Halifax and Selena
I blame religion for brain washing the ignorant men in this country about sex-education, even the ones that “claim” to be atheists or agnostic.
I grew up in the conservative south surrounded by religious nuts who refused to acknowledge sex. However, when a boy got a girl pregnant, it was ALWAYS excused as “he’s a man and men have needs.” For the girls/young women it was always what an “embarrassment”, ship her off to a convent. The ignorance and double standards is appalling.
@Steve
Yes, when you are a parent, and are trying to provide your children with a high self-esteem it is hard to ignore the fact that many people (including the media) will tell them “you are not beautiful/handsome enough” “you are not thin/strong enough” “you are not sexy enough”… For girls the message of success is to be desired by many boys… For boys is to have many girls.
It is not easy, but hey, that is parenting!
@ Jessica
If you’re going to lightly veil your attack on me, at least mention me by name.
If you actually read the posts in this, nobody is blaming girls/women, I’m blaming “daddy issues” and low self esteem and the cycle getting worse due to more and more having sex younger and younger, making their issues even worse at earlier ages.
Read before you attack.
When I was growing up I had an experience I never wished to share with any one and til date not even my parents know about it.
ANAKOR CHIGOZIE
LAGOS
234-8066270696
@Jessica
Wow you never falter in your absurd claims and thruthiness.
🙂 There are none so blind as those who cannot, or will not, see. The really scary thing about all this is the blame is placed squarely on the shoulders of the girls.
How can anyone in a right frame of mind talk about girls exclusively? If there were no irresponsible men there could not be any irresponsible girls. Isn’t that obvious?
Of course, it cannot be obvious if men believe that there are two types of girls… the good girls and the bad girls who are there for men to exploit.
Remember Prince Charles had his share of the bad girls and then went looking for a virgin.
How can the system deprogram attitudes such as this, when supposedly educated men sit in judgment and cannot see the hypocrisy of their reality?
You’re completely wrong, Steve.
First, there’s a huge gulf between 5 and 16. At 5, yes kids trust their parents and teachers but if any parent or teacher is telling a 5 year old “the water’s safe” with regard to sex, they’re crazy. At the same time though, you have to be careful not to make them think sex is dirty or evil.
By the time they’re 16 though, kids are questioning everything an adult tells them. They also think they know everything there is to know about sex by this point…and if you don’t believe that, you don’t know any teenagers and don’t remember your own youth.
However, hopefully by this time the kids will already have been taught some of the facts about sex: the risks, the precautions you can take to combat the risks and, most important, that they DON’T need to give into peer pressure if they don’t feel ready.
“Just say no” and “do as I say” are two phrases that will have about as much effect on a hormone driven teenager as King Canute had on the tide. A few reasoned facts just might help though.
Kids have minds that can assimilate anything teachers feed it. Once such information is passed these kids assimilate it and such facts begin to grow in them. Simply put, how can a five year old kid not get confused with sex education? What kind of policy is this?
Let parents do this mentoring and training. Charity begins and home. So, also morals. If teachers can’t control kids due to the restriction on scolding kids, what makes the self-moral authorities believe teachers can train kids better than parents and their community?
Dolapo Aina,
Lagos, Nigeria
Sexs educauations can not stop the spreads of STDS alone in the society but can encourages its rampants,because sexs defends on invidual feeling about it but not teaching .
Sex education is NOT a permission slip. The Boy Scouts taught me how to handle a rifle at age twelve and I didn’t regard that as permission to shoot up the neighborhood. Rather, I figured out that things always don’t happen the way you want when you pull a trigger.
Kids need to be taught the difference between the illusion of control and actual control. Actual control of sexuality is much more difficult than “Just say no.” We know that doesn’t work. Actual control of sexuality recognizes that initiation of sexual congress can result in events ranging from pleasure, friendship and intimacy to violence, disease, pregnancy and lifelong burdens.
Bad information leads to bad results. The proof is that cultures with comprehensive sex education have lower pregnancy, STD, and early sexual activity rates among teens. ‘Abstinence only’ education has worse outcomes than comprehensive education; this is proven.
@ Steve
“PRetend you are 5-16 again. Teachers were massive authority figures for us. If a teacher told me “the water is safe” I would trust them and drink water if they told me.”
Apparently, I was a smarter kid. My parents taught to think for my self and question anything that contradicted my mind or gut feelings. That’s the problem with your premise for the argument, you assume children are dumb and cannot appreciate the dangers that come with certain responsibility.
I guess the reason why it seems as if sex education does not yield fruit in africa is that while some parents are reluctant to talk sex matters with their children, Curious young ones are very attentive to what looks like Sex Education but Deception in disguise, and what happens is that these false teachers brainwash whoever falls at their mercy.
In public places the modes of dressing is totally different from the messages preached about sex and indecent dressing even in our Churches.
It sure would work better if Mum and Dads learn sex education thesame way the learnt Family planning so they can have convincing logics whey they finally open up to discuss sex:
What sex means,
when it is said to be,
what might likely suggest sex
what to know about sex
AND IMPORTANTLY Sexual Safety precautions for the uninformed who most usually become victims.
However, when a boy got a girl pregnant, it was ALWAYS excused as “he’s a man and men have needs.”
Yes exactly! And to see that the attitude still exists and is flourishing amongst the young men today is appalling.
And what is more appalling is they try to skirt the issue by playing arm chair psychologist and calling the consequence of their own behaviors… daddy issues?
The mind boggles! 🙂
I have a problem with the way that the post information for this discussion is worded. Yes, Sarah Palin favors abstinence but she’s not “against” sex education. I would think this program would pride itself on not posting inaccurate information because people could take it as fact.
Birth control is not 100% effective and it does not prevent against STDS. Of course, young adults should have access to information on birth control but there is nothing wrong with showing abstinence as an option too. Both should be discussed in schools but more important at home. I wouldn’t want my child’s school being the sole source of such important information.
A parent can talk to their child until they are blue in the face about using protection or birth control but ultimately, it’s the child that must be responsible. Parents know that all it takes is one time for their child to become pregnant or to contract a STD that will last a lifetime. I think that’s why many still want their child to know about abstinence. It’s the only 100% way to safeguard against pregnancy and STDS. Just because a child received sex education does not mean that he or she will use it.
@ Selena
Please read what I write before you make all sorts of attacks. I blame this on low self esteem, not girls. Wow, you really just love attacking people and have no desire to actually read what they right.
I have a feeling what I’ve written probably makes you realize something perhaps about yourselves, since I’ve obviously hit a sore spot?
If you want others to continue the spiral downards, into worse self esteem, more irresponsible behavior, more poor choices, more low self esteem mothers raising low self esteem sons/daughters, then I hope you are prepared to deal with the societal consequences.
I have a feeling some of you are even in denial of the self esteem crisis that’s going on. Sorry, but having sex with 7 guys in one week isn’t “empowerment”. But that’s what women with low self esteem do. You want this to get worse? Attacking me won’t help the problem. But denying it will make it worse. Ignoring the problem will only make it worse.
I want a better society, do you?
@Bob
I loved your last comment! Well said!
@Robert
But only talking about the “bad stuff” that could happen is you have sex (giving birth is not a bad stuff but surely hurts a lot!) is not good either. They are only providing a deterrement for engaging in something that it is in fact -if well done- a pleasure and a good thing.
Many -if not all- of the problems that adults have regarding sexual relationships come from the vilifying of sex. That only result in frustration.
@ Selena
LOL. You don’t even admit about daddy issues. Now, I know not to take you seriously. Anyone who’s ever left home and has been on a date knows what daddy issues are and how it makes women absolutely basketcases. I’m sure other male posters will tell some of their stories about these kinds of women.
This is it in a summary, they have low self esteem and have commitment issues because daddy either wasn’t around, or left. So they ensure that their life goes that way by picking unavailable men (ie married men, guys who won’t make a commitment) or are actively commitmentphobic themselves, so they are serial monogamamists, and just dump a guy if things get too serious.
That you deny this is common makes you have no credibility, Selena.
Jess
Not really speaking for Brett – but I would say that he was being a little trite at the thought that education isn’t any good, he was, I would say, saying that education isn’t enabling – it is educating – something all children need.
I m an african adult, and would like to say that because we have a culture that treats sex as taboo(parents can not talk about it openly to the kids) we have rampant sex amongst the teens. sex education will not stop the kids from having it but will reduce the negative consiquences that come with it. For example contraception will save you an arm and leg in looking after a child when you a child or looking after a grand child you did not plan for. I m for sex education and equiping the kids with all the facts and let them make imformed decisions.
@ Steve
“If you’re going to lightly veil your attack on me, at least mention me by name.”
LOL! Hit a nerve, did I? Steve, I am not afraid of your generalizations and unsubstantiated claims. So why don’t you “think logically here” and wonder if my comment offended you, because I said it or because it you found truth in it that hurt.
specifik –
And there you have the other problem! Well said!
Sex education should not only be taught to kids – but to parents. Some of the things I have heard parents say is, well, erm – WHAT?
Jennifer
I am sure you mean “and it does not prevent 100% against STDs’?
Sex Education~
You start teaching children about sex when they start asking – as long as you remember that the child is going to focus on what you DON’T say you’ll be fine.
And, when you’re teaching morality, explaining why doing something is stupid is always easier than explaining why it’s wrong.
@ Selena
“There are none so blind as those who cannot, or will not, see. The really scary thing about all this is the blame is placed squarely on the shoulders of the girls.”
Don’t say this, shhhh some are hell bent on “daddy issues” and “low self-esteem”. That is the contrition, if there were no irresponsible boys there wouldn’t be any irresponsible girls. However, first it would require men to acknowledge that some of them have “mommy issues” or lack “self-esteem”.
@Jessica
You have made me smile. 🙂
So why don’t you “think logically here” and wonder if my comment offended you, because I said it or because it you found truth in it that hurt.
Playing armchair psychologist here…
We always hate the things in others that we don’t like in ourselves. (I don’t know if you are old enough to know but that great American J. Edgar Hoover, who was himself a homosexual, despised other homosexuals.)
Truth always offends if we are forced to reexamine our dearly, deeply held and cherished beliefs.
Luz Ma –
Teaching girls and women that they can enjoy the intimacy of sex isn’t the right thing to do – don’t ya know!
Sex is only for men’s pleasure! I thought everyone knew this! 😉
@ Jessica
Low self esteem in men manifests itself in the opposite manner, these males tend to be celibate/virgins, so they don’t contribute to the cycle, they are left out of it. Women, with low self esteem tend to be very promiscuos, having a high chance of getting pregnant, then raising a child to have low self esteem.
If you look at the studies, it’s low self esteem girls having sex with high self esteem boys.
If you want ot continue denying this, please, feel free. I’m sure the world needs even more messed up people.
@specifick & Will
Exactly!
Sadly it is hard to address those issues in conservative societies.
I am regarded by some people as a bad mother because my 7 year old daughter knows how babies are made and my 3 year old daughter knows the name of all her body parts.
@ Will
Does birth control-the pill, NuvaRing, etc. protect you from stds? Nooooooooope! 😀 Do condoms protect you from stds? Not if they break or are not put on correctly.
The only 100% way to protect yourself from pregnancy and stds is abstinence!
Maybe that’s why some people wold like it to be discussed in schools with sex education.
Go figure! haha
@ Jessica
LOL. Yes, low self esteem in modern society isn’t a major problem. Get out of your dream world of denial! I cannot believe someone can come here and claim this isn’t a MASSIVE, massive problem. Do me afavor Jessica, go into your closest Duane Reade, and tell me how much % of floor space is devoted to makeup, then grab a woman’s magazine, and then tell me how much of it is advertisements for makeup, then try to claim to me that self esteem isn’t a major issue that impacts even so far as the composition of a drug store.
I cannot believe you! You are either lying or are in total denial.
@ Jennifer
Even if condoms are properly used and don’t break, you can still get herpes and HPV with condom usage. Those are probably the most common STDs out there. So yes, abstience is the ONLY way you can stop herpes and HPV for sure.
Again, kids in sex education will get the message, “I can use a condom, and so long as it doesn’t break, I’m safe” and this is why HPV and herpes infection rates are so high.
way to go liz, i m with all the way, in africa we treat sex as a bad thing and yet children see adults chnaging women?men like clothes and then, they decide to tryout this “thing” called bad and yet people are ven willing to spend all their money on it.
@Will
LOL!!! 😀
That is why the world is full of hysteric women and egocentric men…
Luz Ma
Well I must be hated beyond reproach then! LOL
One of the boys was watching a piece on the news – advert came on and he asked about it – it was for Cialis (The ad is on all through the day). He asked questions because it perked his interest. Now taking into account this was an American ad – I wondered why he was interested.
He just wanted to know what it was for, explaining to him what it was for led to a real conversation about quite a few different things. After that convo he looked at the TV, said that Obama was speaking and went to play on his PS2 – he certainly didn’t go looking for a Play Boy or Penthouse – he really never thought any more about it. Even when the ad came back on again later he didn’t even notice it.
What I am saying is that sex ed etc doesn’t have to be in a smoke filled room with curtains closed like some believe, just being open and honest works just as well.
there is nothing conservative about sex because even the bible in the book of songs of solomon say’s it must be enjoyed by lovers, people who are commited to each other, so we must teach our kids and tell them that if the decide to use the facts well they will enjoy their sex life.
The problem is how do you teach it??? Church taught me wait until you’re married. Science Class taught me that evolution wants me to spread me seed as much as possible. Kids were telling me wrap it up and put it wherever you can. Everyone has totally opposite views on sex, and thinks the other views are 100% wrong (much like the problem with religion).
Asking “How do we teach sex right” is like asking “What is the best religion.” People will never agree.
-Anthony, LA, CA
Another question: Would you let sex-addicts to be the teacher for sex education? Or do you prefer a guy or a girl as teacher?
Jennifer
Really? OK. 😕
@ Will
“Jennifer
The only 100% way to protect yourself from pregnancy and stds is abstinence!
Really? OK. ”
Think it through will, she’s right, unless you have an immaculate conception. If you dont’ have sex, it’s impossible to get pregnant or get an STD.
@ Jessica NYC
First off: sorry! Didn’t mean to come across as blaming women! It takes two to tango, so both parties are equally responsible and accountable for their actions.
Now a word about ‘daddy issues.’ You’re familiar with the idea that boys learn to treat women by how they see their dad treating their mom? So if the boy has a bad role model for a father, chances are he will perpetuate this behavior with other women in his life.
In my experience, something similar happens with girls. I’m not sure how to best articulate it, but it seems that some women who have bad fathers seem to seek out men who treat them like their father did. I’ve had a few female friends over my life that consistently wind up with men who abuse them, belittle them and all the rest. And these aren’t one-off events. My friends almost have an inability to pick good men and almost exclusively choose the ones that treat them like crap (pardon my french).
The strange part is that the men’s actions mirror the actions of the girl’s father. I don’t know whether it’s a psychological attachment issue or what, but that’s what ‘daddy issues’ means. At least in men’s world.
@ Will, Bob, Luz and any other parents
How did you feel the first time your children asked you about sex? And how did you approach the delicate subject?
@ will Rhodes
well said the approach and atmosphere we creat when we talking to the kids about sex is also impotant, we can moderate, certain things depending on age, and situation, otherwise will may miss the mark.
@smackie
i think a female teacher for the girls and male teacher for the boys, but can have featured session where a male teacher can go to the girls class with female teache present and give the other side of the story.
@ selena in Canada
“We always hate the things in others that we don’t like in ourselves… Truth always offends if we are forced to reexamine our dearly, deeply held and cherished beliefs.
RE Hoover
Not, old enough to have lived through his reign as president, but old enough to have taken several history classes. 😉 If you look at all the tyrant men who have caused the most perilousness in history it can ALWAYS be attributed to their beliefs being challenged. Or was it just “mommy issues” and “penis envy”? LOL
@ Steve
I am not so sure I believe that sex education will lead to a child feeling as though they can go out and have sex. Maybe it’s where they get their information from and if they choose to use it or discard it. Chances are if a child wants to have sex they will. They have to make a decision about what they consider the best choice.
@Will
Yes you are…LOL!!!
@Steve and Jennifer
You can always ask your future sex partner to take a STDs tests before having sex.
Obviously this not apply to casual sex. But the purpose of sex ed is to tackle causal sex, doesn’t it?
@ Shaun
“My friends almost have an inability to pick good men and almost exclusively choose the ones that treat them like crap (pardon my french). ”
That’s how they are passive commitmentphobes, by picking guys like that, also another big thing is them going for married men. All becuase they have low self esteem and want men that other women have approved of…
The other way daddy issues manifest themselves is to be an active commitmentphobe, which can and does involve going after men that want serious relationships and treats them well. They just wind up dumping these guys, and get into another relationship. When that gets serious, she’ll end that as well.
I believe that 50% of children are born to single mothers these days, so there’s bound to be more and more daddy issues as the percentage gets larger, so there will be a larger and larger problem of women making poor choices in men, or active commitmentphobia, leading to even more single parents, and the problem will just get worse, and worse, and worse.
@Jessica
However, first it would require men to acknowledge they have “mommy issues” or lack “self-esteem”.
Playing arm chair psychologist again… isn’t it a well known fact that men who have relationship issues are always looking for their mother and not finding her?
In school I was taught about male and female biology, even in a Catholic grade school in the 70’s. I learned about birth control from my mother and at Planned Parent, which was from peer pressure from girlfriends. We were never to get “caught” getting pregnant. That was taboo. Not one of got pregnant in high school. We all went on to lead healthy lives. My girlfriends got married, some went on to college and got married, and I went to college, had my own business, and consider myself a serial monogamist; long term relationships, but no marriage. We were taught morals, to value ourselves, and birth control.
@ selena
“Playing arm chair psychologist again… isn’t it a well known fact that men who have relationship issues are always looking for their mother and not finding her?”
So if all men are abusive and rapists, as radical feminists think, are men looking to abuse and rape their mothers?
i’m confused on this.
That you deny daddy issues is absolutely hilarious. Kinda funny. I mean really funny. You might want to tell that to my best friend’s ex girlfriend, who had such daddy issues she lost her virginity at 14 to a 35 year old man. I’m sure she’s not a basketcse at all.
Please, continue to deny it. You’ll only hurt other women by doing this.
I can only speak for sex education in Texas, but alhough it is “abstinence only” we do learn about STDs and contraceptives in health classes. Aside from basic clinical information, I fail to understand why the schools should promote any world view. I am of the opinion that they will be as effective in changing students minds as they are in education in general, which is not a good prospect with the US educational system rated so badly. Wouldn’t schools be better served focusing on improving education and thus the ability to make informed decisions? Besides, no one listens in any of those health classes or “special programs” anyways.
just to throw in some controversy. rember what bill maher said about oral sex……..
@Steve,
Concerning the 35 year old man having sex with a 14 year old girl, society does not question their “self-esteem” they are considered pedophiles.
@ Will
Yes, Really! HAHA 🙂 If you do not have sex you have zero chance of getting pregnant and zero chance of getting a std!
The education of children, in regards to sex, relationships and appropriate behavior needs to start young. My roommate teaches second grade and one of her little girls (8 years old) announced to the class that she “wanted to be a stripper” when she goes up. Children learn about these kinds of things at a young age. I think it is appropriate that there be a system to answer their natural questions and inform them, rather than them learning from hearing others.
I do think it is very important that what they are learning is age appropriate and the educators need to work with the appropriate professionals to ensure the system is properly structured for each age group.
@ shaun,
“The strange part is that the men’s actions mirror the actions of the girl’s father.”
wrong, my wifes father was a violent and controlling man, I am not.
@ Julie
My point was that, do you think her having done that raised or lowered her self esteem, and do you think it’s a coincidence she is incredibly promiscuous?
What happens when she, a low self esteem woman, raises a kids? Do you think someone with low self esteem like that will raise kids with high self esteem? I don’t think so.
As a note to the on air gentleman (on Europe Today). The HPV vaccine is available, but you don’t have to have sex to get HPV. If they so choose, or parents choose, the vaccine can gaurd against cancers that can exist before sexual intercourse.
@Steve,
Any man who chooses to have sex with a young woman like that serious problems of their own. I think the man is mentally ill and needs to be in prison. The 14 year old young woman is the victim of a vile crime.
If that were my daughter and you, Steve, at the age of 33 had sex with my 14 year old child, you would be facing criminal charges.
@Julie
Technically is statutory rape, not pedophelia. A 14 year old girl has gone through puberty. But that’s not the point, the point was to show what daddy issues causes women to do, and puts men in situations to take advantage of them. This isn’t even rare. It leads to even lower self esteem and more baggage. The cycle gets worse and worse.
@ Luz Ma
I may do that anyway just to be safe.
When I took sex education, we did not exclusively talk about casual sex. I think it was also more of being informed and making good choices over the long haul.
@Steve,
Nice rationalizing. The man is mentally ill for singling a out a young woman like that to have sex with. She is not old enough or mature enough to understand that she is being manipulated.
Tha man in this case is the predator and the cause of all of the problems in this instance. Again, he would be facing criminal charges, those chosen by myself, the detective, and the DA.
@ Julie
I know her, have spoken with her. She knew exactly what she was doing, and went after him. Of course he shouldn’t have, but My point was to show what low self esteem and daddy issues leads to. Had she any self esteem and didn’t have daddy issues, I think it would have been far less likely she would have been in that situation.
@Shaun
How did you feel the first time your children asked you about sex? And how did you approach the delicate subject?
I prepared myself for that day. Growing up I didn’t have open talks with my parents about sex. This lead to some problems when I reached adult life, but luckily I could overcome them through theraphy. So, when I became a mother, I read books and articles about how to talk to your children about sex and other difficult issues (like death, diseases, war, etc.) I also talked about this with my husband to be in the same track.
She was like 2 years old when she asked her first question (it was related to why she didn’t have a penis). The clue is being cool and answer like any other question (like why the sky is blue, or why her grandaddy has white hair). If you get anxious they would think that there is something wrong about it.
So far, being easy and answer straightforward has work for me.
@Steve,
He is 34 years old. He is at fault. He is old enough to know what he is doing. If he had any self respect and respect for her he would have turned her down. Period.
Sex education is not sexual education. It is a way of instilling confidence and commonsense in children.
Hopefully, India will follow its former colonizer (Britain) very soon.
I do not know how teachers will cope with an uneasy subject to teach in a class room and that calls for a fundamental change in our attitude.
A physically aware young boy or a girl can bring about a much needed change in his/her family hygiene, especially in rural parts of South Asia and Africa.
People say that a literate mother can become a lantern for atleast ten children.
The reverse logic becomes equally important when the mother is non-literate and remains unaware of her physical needs.
I submit the idea that we are all mammals who are acutely aware of our own sexuality- even at a young age. I think innocence is an illusion perpetrated by adults who are hung up about (and loathe) sex. This type of repression is appalling considering the age of “enlightenment” we supposedly enjoy in the western world. This is evidence we are not as advanced a civilization as we fancy ourselves to be.
It is ABSOLUTELY false, WRONG, CORRUPT, AND CORRUPTS, to claim that open-speaking about sex and early teaching about sex helps children control their sexuality or reduces STD. If it were true, we would have been seeing reduction since sex education was introduced. But instead, we are seeing progressive increase in sexual expressions or intercourse, contraception and abortion among children.
Jennifer
One reason STDs spread is because people think they need to have sexual intercourse to become infected. That’s wrong. A person can get some STDs, like herpes or genital warts, through skin-to-skin contact with an infected area or sore.
http://kidshealth.org/teen/sexual_health/stds/std.html
Can I get pregnant if I don’t have sex? Answer: Yes
http://pregnancy.about.com/od/canigetpregnantif/f/nosex.htm
Education is good.
@ Julie
Please stop trying to get off the point, which is about self esteem. Had she had self esteem she wouldn’t have gone after him. The fact is, when you have low self esteem and daddy issues, and you are a female, you do things like this. If she didn’t want to have sex with an older man, that older man wouldn’t have had sex with her. The problem is that the daddy issues creates this problem, it makes her want someone she can’t have a proper relationship with, and at a young age. The problem is only getting worse as time progresses. Wasn’t Mohammed’s wife, Aisha, only 9 years old? Apparently they had daddy issues in the 7th century as well, though I have a feeling the problem is worse today, thuogh I seem to recall girls would get married very young, long ago.
People, please understand. The reason why the authorities want to teach sex education, is because parents aren’t doing it. But the parents aren’t also teaching self esteem skills. So the combo of the two, the permission slip, plus the low self esteem = nightmare.
We’ve established on this show in the past that parents are doing a horrible job parenting, so kids have no self esteem these days. A recipe for an absolute disaster.
I come from a city in England with one of the worst teenage pregnancy rates in the country. There may be lots of reasons for this, but I can tell you for a fact that social poverty and a lack of available housing is a huge factor. I know many girls and young couples who have chosen to have 2 or more children in their teens simply because that is the only way they can get a council house. The practice is widespread.
Why do people feel compelled to even hide sex from their children? It’s a basic biological function that has nothing to do with morals. There is nothing wrong with teaching the children FACTS about sex, especially when many parents are even unwilling to do that.
Shaun
At first I was taken aback – this was with the first one. The reason was I did expect her to be older – it was the question of why is that lady’s belly so big. I proclaimed that she was carrying a baby – then the other questions came.
I read up about explaining the ‘facts of life’ pretty damn quick after that one.
With the others I just remembered the advice of making it as comfortable for you as well as the child and being open, frank and not too clinical about it. Since then it is just another conversation.
A five year old child has so many things to learn other than sex education.
By the way, why the hurry to teach that 5 year old about sex. The only objective may be to further destroy moral values in the society and create unwanted pregnacies, school drop outs and massive illitracy. Why because, once you teach your child how to drive he/she would want to test drive.
@Shaun
“The strange part is that the men’s actions mirror the actions of the girl’s father.”
I with Jens in this one… Some people break the patterns. It is also the case of my husband and myself. He is the opposite of my father and I am the opposite of her mother (THANK GOD!).
It is sad that sex education is necessary in schools. Parents are unwilling or incapable of speaking to their own children on these subjects. By not doing so it makes it absolutely necessary to teach these issues in schools. How will a 5 year old know what is or is not appropriate behavior by an adult or other child if the dialog about sex education is not started. It is pathetic that parental rights are becoming abdicated by negligence. Do we really want someone we know nothing about teaching our children about these issues, instilling their morals on our youth.
Teaching 5 year olds about sex is insane. We’re just going to have younger kids having sex. Imagine the absolutely insanity that these kids will face as adults if they begin having sex at 7 or so instead of the 13-15 that is typical today..
I dont see any problem with sex education.
It gives the correct direction and perception to the young and the old who would abuse it.
@ Will
Refraining from having sex is the ONLY way you can be 100% protected from AIDS and STDs. This includes all of that extracurricular funny business which I do consider sex just as much as going “all the way”. Please tell me you aren’t seriously wanting to split hairs that way just to dispute my statement?????
@ Will
I did mean pregnancy and STDS in my above statement…..
@Steve,
I am on point. Had he any self respect, aka self esteem, he would have turned her down, but he did not. He is at fault. He’s got some serious issues and would facing criminal charges.
@ Julie
She lied about her age to him, so he didn’t know. As far is he was concerned, he had sex with an incredibly attractive 18 year old. You don’t have low self esteem and do that. The point was, she deliberately went after a much older man.
Hhaha, the guest is trying to force parents to allow their kids to take these classes. No opt outs? He just wants to shove his agenda down a 7 year olds throat.
“The US has spent $1.5 billion on abstinence education in the past 25 years but many say there’s no proof it works.”
“abstinence education’
Now there’s an oxymoron for you!
“Abstinence education” is really abstinence from education.
Just more of Conservatives keeping people ignorant.
Early sex education is a key element to protecting children from sexual abuse. Knowledge is power.
Your guest from NY who just claimed that America is as open, frank and honest about sexual discussions as the Netherlands is completely clueless. Presumably, she has never been to the Netherlands, and doesn’t know what it is like to live in a society that is frank about sex. America is sexually repressed in a big way. Just look at the Republican candidate for vice president! Despite seeing firsthand the consequences of only preaching abstinence instead of actually teaching children about sex, she obstinately maintains her position based on doctrine instead of being willing to consider the reasonable solution of teaching children about their own bodies.
My own parents were quite frank with me from a very early age. They weren’t talking about birth control, but when I was in second grade they were willing to provide accurate information about where babies come from. Children wonder about these things. It is not a bad idea to answer their questions.
@ Steve
“I cannot believe you! You are either lying or are in total denial.”
To not agree with you makes me “a liar” or or “an dumb”. Careful, Steve, your law education fails you and the quality of it shows. What a debate!
Here is some research facts that contradict your ludicrous opinions, in case you care to be educated on this matter:
-the Sexuality Information and Education Council of the United States
-http://www.advocatesforyouth.org
-Sex-role identification and self-esteem in college students: Do men and women differ? By Johnson
@Steve
What would you answer to a 2-5 year old child if he/she asked you why that women has a big belly, where kids come from, why I don’t have a ‘thing’ like my baby brother, etc???
Those are sex related questions. That is the kind of talk you have with a 2-5 year old. Obviously you don’t tell about the whole mechanic of the act at that point, but those questions and answers will lead to more complicated questions when they grow up. There is not such thing like “the sex talk”. Sex education is about many talks that will start when children are very young and will probably end when they reach adulthood. It is a work in progress.
@Steve,
He’s an adult. He really should be able to distinguish between a woman and a child. If he were anything of a man he would be attracted to women near to his age, not someone who is that much younger than him. We are not talking about man who is 45 going after a woman who is 25. We are talking about a man who is attracted to women who could still be in high school. I seriously question the man’s self-esteem and motives. The man is sick.
@ Alimi
“A five year old child has so many things to learn other than sex education.”
I agree with you 100%. There is plenty of time for those discussions later.
To the young lady from NY on the program. Children are already thinking about their bodies and things of that nature before ten years old! Especially with all of the growth hormones in food these days, children are starting to undergo the physical and emotional changes of puberty much earlier than the last generation. Unless we teach them BEFORE these things happen, they will be frightened and ashamed, where shame is the last thing they should feel.
Also, today’s kids learn about these things from tv and older friends before they do at school. We have an obligation to give them the information they need, before they have to put it to use.
is it all about sex eduaction that is causing the tennagers to have sex,it’s not the sex education that is making them have sex in their early,it’s their environment they are in,sex education is very important at very early ages coz this would give them an view on how it’s all natural that goes on in our body,so i think we should not avoide sex educataion but as per my view i think we should banned the sex videos in tv and should be only sold to person who is in the proper age,and any underaged child should not be allowed to see those kind of stuff.
We cant fear giving information. The point of parenting is to give children the tools to choose. Growing up is all about learning to being able to choose wisely.
Children need to learn to choose, and need information and guidance to do that. I don’t think we can under inform kids and so they are comfortable and able to own the choices of their life. Parents do this first, and should never leave this to a school, but if parents do it too late, they cause damage. Which is why schools need to teach something.
The critical mistake parents repeat with kids is to protect them as growing adults that HAVE to make choices for their lives. We can’t be afraid of openess, which is age appropriate.
Jennifer
You made a generalisation, I didn’t split any hairs, just gave you proof that with your reasoning you can both get pregnant and contract an STD. Now you have been more specific – that changes what you said and meant.
Now, if you had said that boys and girls should always keep at arms length from each other and not mix – that would have been different.
You ain’t Catholic are you?
@ Jens
Sorry, misunderstanding. In my experience, and the girl friends I’ve known, the men they date and sleep with treat them the exact same way their fathers did. It’s just a phenomenon where she dates a guy, realizes he’s a jerk, then asks “why can’t I find a decent guy?” Then she repeats the same cycle again.
Sex education whats the problem?.
5 years old is to late to tell children about strangers ,relatives ,family friends and babysitters touching them in an unappropriate way,probably 2 years old at nursery school,would be a good time to start.
If you grow up on a sink council estate(project) with only one parent who may have a lot of friends or disappear once in a while state sex education is a necessity,your guests are middle class and probably come from a stable family environment.
I think that children should be taught about sex at an early age, I don’t think that informing people will hurt them by putting dirty ideas in there head. Your talking about kids here. We jsut want them to have some sort of general idea about sex by the time there body starts to change. As for whether or not the 54% of American teens that are virgins are actually using abstinence, I think that they are jsut being mature and realizing that they might not want to have sex. The age when teens first starts having sex varies everywhere in America, for various reasons and I don’t think its logical to say abstience is working. People will have sex whether they have been informed or not, and it is better to teach them safe practices while they are still young.
@ Shaun in Halifax
No need to apologize I understood what you were saying and I did not interpret it as you blaming girls/young women/women. I agree with your assertion that many issues play a role in low-self esteem. My issues is with the callous generalization by others that puts all the responsibility on women and their issues and deny the role men/boys play.
@ Will
You did split hairs but I was much more specific in my answer which corrected that! Not everyone is going to practice abstinence and look for a loophole at the same time. Wouldn’t that defeat the purpose?
I am Catholic.
Greetings from Sunny Britain,
It’s the parents who should be teaching children about sex, and the earlier the better, even if they don’t understand. Put the knowledge into their minds while it doesn’t mean too much, they grow up having that knowledge, and when as they get older, the understanding will come gradually too. Then it won’t be a problem for them to assimilate the knowledge, and it won’t be something to be hidden, or to be shy about, or to be silly about. But they will have enough knowledge to behave sensibly.
It’s how I taught my two boys. No problems there.
Chris from Namibia.
@ Will and Luz
Thanks! I’m taking notes as I read that. I’m sure it will help me prepare for when that day eventually comes (no time soon I hope).
I am a nurse in the United States. I worked for a time with homeless teenagers, and I was impressed both by how smart they are and how much they are exposed to at an early age.
My point here is that girls find out about sex early, 7 and 8 years old is not too early to introduce the topic in a safe, informative environment that allows them to speak to each other and their teachers about their bodies and about sex. It is important who talks to kids about this first, because if it is introduced in a disrespectful environment first, then there is quite a lot of catching up you have to do.
thanks
Nicole Valcour
Honolulu
the british ex-headteacher on your programme talks about the importance of explaining a long term stabel loving relationship. Why not help children rather than say life is all about choice. Children need to know the correct context for such a powerful, intimate and vulnerable relationship is marriage, designed for one man with one woman. When we tell them less than this, we are selling them short, poor kids.
@ Jens
“just to throw in some controversy. remember what bill maher said about oral sex…”
Don’t start with me… LOL He just got back on my “good list” after watching his documentary.
Jess,
you know it as well as I do, it is always easier to blame the opposite sex……..especially in a country where responsibility is writen in the smallest of font
In China, when we were “allowed” to talk about HIV/AIDS we found that sex education from the biological point was essential – many thought they knew things and did not understand the basics, – but also we got lots of questions about relationships and such things as how to say “no” – how to negotiate with a boyfriend or girlfriend what to do, not only in questions of making love, but questions about wanting to live together or not.
Learning to negotiate needs/wants and to explore ways of expressing love other than sex or as well as sex, learning to not feel guilty when saying “no” about something – anything – was a huge issue.
Moralising is NOT a good idea, but opening options IS. – Learning to negotiate, learning about relationships – that is even a bigger issue than the biological facts. (though biological information is also vital)
Would anybody be adverse to gearing the sex education to the age/maturity level of the child?
I mean there’s decades of research on psycho-somatic development and life-stages. Obviously we shouldn’t be teaching young children about intercourse. But they will ask questions about “how come he can pee standing up?”
Then you have to teach kids about puberty and what that means — menstrual cycles, hair where there wasn’t, estrogen/testosterone. Then you have to realize that at some point having sex is a choice. Some people will choose abstinence, some people won’t. Regardless, if a teenager CHOOSES to have sex, shouldn’t they should be equipped with the knowledge and tools to minimize the risk to themselves and their partners?
I have a fear of drowning. It doesn’t stop me from swimming.
I have a fear of getting hit by a car. It doesn’t stop me from driving or walking across the street.
I have a fear of alcohol poisoning. It doesn’t stop me from drinking from time to time.
I have a fear of contracting HIV/AIDS or some other gift that burns when I pee. It doesn’t stop me from having sex. What it DOES do is make me choose my partners wisely and always use some contraceptive. It’s not 100% safe, but then again nothing is (not even abstinence).
Why is there so much fuss about sex education when blood, guts and violence is so freely available to, and enjoyed by kids of all ages worldwide, without restriction? It just shows how incongruous our society is.
@ Jessica NYC
What was the name of that doc? Was it the religion one?
jess,
common, it was a dirty but funny comment. I know we discussed it at length…..still got to go and see his movie.
The fact that we are having this debate at all is just another reflection of the pernicious effects of the belief that all morals must be founded on the irrational, magical thinking of religion.
The facts are:
Kids who are educated about the basic facts of sexuality, reproduction and birth control are LESS likely to have sex at earlier ages and MUCH LESS likely to suffer the life changing consequences of sex (pregnancy, STDs, etc.) when they do choose to have sex. Many, many studies have shown this.
That so many people continue to insist that sex education will lead to promiscuity shows simply that they would rather live in a world of made up facts rather than in the real one we have.
I think that 5 may be too early. I think Chris’s approach of 7 years old is a good one. Even better would be 8 or 9.I started my menstrual cycle at 10 years old and it was then that my mother told me about what it meant and how it meant that I could get pregnant if I had sex. I think that families need to get more involved in this discussion. There is no “losing innocence” because these days children don’t even seem to have much of an innocence, especially with the immense amount of images and cultural implications of sex. Sex education is VERY important. I used to work at a teen program and there are so many myths about sex that teens actually believe. If children had more information about sex and its consequences, meanings, implications etc, whether they choose to remain abstinent or have sex, they can make a VALUED and educated decision.
Fuuny, how the pro-lifers are the ones that have issue wit sex-education. is sex not part of life……
let’s face it these religiouse crowds want everything to be so moral and perverted. what is more natural than sex or for that a naked body? without sex no reproduction, unless you belive in virgin births….even apostols of high morality have to “do it” to reproduce 😉
I have two teenage boys and we have been having gradual discussions about their bodies and sex for many years. Making these conversations casual and open is important to allow children to ask questions and makes sexuality and bodily functions not taboo. Unfortunately, some parents are uncomfortable talking to their children about sex and this is where sex education comes in to play. This should take place in the primary grades because girls are menstruating much earlier and they need to be prepared for the changes that are taking place.
The caller from Oakland has the right idea about how sex education should be taught to different ages of children.
@ Shaun in Halifax
“The strange part is that the men’s actions mirror the actions of the girl’s father.”
Is is true for some, but as with anything one mold does not fit all. This is the problem these generalizations can not be imposed on all women. My grandfather was very sexist, but my father was not and would get VERY upset when anyone said anything to impose limits on me.
I believe that part of the issue here is not just sex education, but it is “relationship education”. It is one thing to teach the mechanics, but a completely different (and perhaps more important) issue to teach about the emotional and feeling aspects – which seem to be ignored. Many children do not get a good example of what it is to be in a healthy relationship, and I think that there are many who perhaps mistake and confuse sex for love and comfort.
Sex is everywhere in our advertising, movies, music, conversations, jokes, etc. Our children are exposed to inappropriate material before they are off their mother’s breast or the bottle.
However, most people react vicerally to the term “Sex Education” and think only of intercourse and related sexual activity. Perhaps the terminology needs to be progressive, something like Staying healthy K-4, with more defined health and sex education classes for the upper grades. Very young children need to know simple, clear information about what they se around them everyday. This is giving them the tools so they the knowledge to better avoid being victims of a sexual predator, even if that predator is an older child.
When I was in high school it was required that I take health education. I learned more about my body, how to maintain health and, of course, conception, contraception and STD’s. My mother was relieved when my much younger sister asked me about menstruation and I abliged her with what I learned.
I tell teens today, who are often to embarrased to talk about the specfics of sex that,”If your to embarrassed to talk about it and learn more about it to be a better sex partner, then you are not ready to engage in mutual satisfying sex with a partner, so you should wait.”
No one can teach children their sex organ, its nature, how it can be used in a relationship with an opposite sex, the sexual reproductive right to use it, that it is pleasurable to use it , and how to avoid pregnancy, HIV or STD, without creating sexual emotions or urge in the children.
Does sexuality not come with age? Why catalyse it, if you do not intend the product of the catalysis?. Margaret Sanger began this and since then to this day, more children have been having sexual intercourse. The age at first sexual intercourse now is as low as nine years in some countries and first pregnancy comes at as low as twelve years in some countries. Moreover, the population of sufferers of STD, including the human immune system-devastating virus HISDD/HIV, and infertility, due to four reasons, namely, early-begun sexual intercourse, the use of contraception, and abortion has been rising.
The logic is very simple: If sex education was intended to reduce the rate of sexual intercourse among children or to reduce the infection of children by sexually harmful viruses and bacteria, the measures that would help them to preserve their virginity until they are married would have been adopted. That God forbids anyone to have sexual intercourse before marriage and outside marriage would have been taught. That God would punish the violation of the command would have been taught. But such education is denied them and what they are educated on are what create sexual urge in them, create also false sense of security or protection against sexually harmful viruses, bacteria, and pregnancy.
We know that the so-called sex education began a long time ago, especially as a deliberate action by Margaret Sanger in the 19th century, intended to reduce the fertility and hence, the population of African-Americans and Hispanics in New York where she worked as a midwife, as a racist political measure of ensuring that “those waste matter” do not rule the “best breed” — Anglo-Saxon Americans. Obama is about to make history as a “waste matter” that would rule “the best breed”. Will they assassinate him after he has made it?
Prince Awele Odor
Lagos, Nigeria
Please do tell children that there is more to sex that the sex act itself. Also tell them about relationships, love, and friendship, holding hands. That will be far more emotionally healthy and will equip them for life. This is about love, not only about reproduction.
I teach about sex/sexuality/our bodies to pre-schoolers at church. We use the OWL (Our Whole Lives) curriculum developed by the Unitarian Universalist Association and United Churches of Christ.
Right now there is a speaker on (woman) talking about what is age appropriate, what are teachable moments for the child, and who your trusted adults are.
That is absolutely the path used with this curriculum.
I think the point needs to be made that Sex Education is NOT only
reproduction details and NOT only *heterosexual intercourse details”
and your moderator is using the term totally undefined.
I always wonder what religion people grew up in because I have noticed that kids raised in one of the fear based religions, that is, under a regime of fear, tend to develop one or another of many and various behaviors and beliefs to try and help them lessen the effects of that fear or compensate somehow.
I notice that kids raised in a Conservative version of religion, fear-based, try to find love and respect in some very self destructive ways, like sex, drugs, and alcohol.
And they tend to do weird behaviors to lessen the fear, like just totally giving up, depression, suicide, cutting themselves, anorexia, bulimia, becoming sneaky and doing things behind the parents back, rebelliousness, ect.
I think that religion and its effects don’t usually get questioned and it ought to be.
@ Jessica
Never meant it to be for everybody. And I never meant the generalization to be applied to all women. I know that nothing ticks a person off more than being shoved into the wrong pigeon-hole. I was merely trying to explain and frame the idea of ‘daddy issues’ as it related to what Steve and I were discussing earlier. And that I have seen some women in my life that fit the pattern.
I agree with Jeanette. I believe we are missing a key point, sex is apart of being human. We should be teaching children how to be a compassionate human and how to be in healthy relationships. Sex and the body is a part of that. I think many adults need basic “how to be human lessons” —
My mother had to tell me about sex when I was six years old because some older children in the neighborhood were telling me false stories about sex. She wanted to give me the real story instead of letting me believe these stories.
I remember the day very well. I remember when she told me how sex happened, I said to her: “Eww, that is awful. I never want to do that.” But I do distinctly remember knowing that one day I would want to engage in that behavior also.”
After that, I never thought much about it again. The knowledge didn’t make me feel more promiscuous later. I didn’t feel uncomfortable at all about the facts. I feel it helped me later because I did understand when other children didn’t. I remember my friends being very squeamish about sex education at age 10.
@ Will
——–
“One reason STDs spread is because people think they need to have sexual intercourse to become infected. That’s wrong. A person can get some STDs, like herpes or genital warts, through skin-to-skin contact with an infected area or sore.
http://kidshealth.org/teen/sexual_health/stds/std.html
Can I get pregnant if I don’t have sex? Answer: Yes
http://pregnancy.about.com/od/canigetpregnantif/f/nosex.htm”
——–
You’re simply brilliant! It’s is baffling the ignorance people have about sex.
What sex education are you going to teach an African child? rape by Aggressive forces, Molestation by Teachers,Early marriage or HIV? All works out but the African child is already aware about that given that there are already many NGO’s doing the same.
Prostitution is at the ground due to poverty but even the prostitute will have some spare condoms with her. many young girls and boys move around with these gargets in their wallets, bags and pockets and very many outlets sell them openly.
So the persons teaching sex education in schools should first be taught about behavioural change in society. The teacher should be taught not to ask his or her pupil or student out. The question of how much one has and prestige is a major contributor. what about the lecturer at the university who would mark well in good faith?
could somebody please ask the prince to take his medication.
Jens
They also believe that sex is for procreation – ALWAYS!
Tom
Conservatives always rely on guilt as the controlling factor. Make em feel guilty – they won’t do it, which as any rational person knows, doesn’t work.
How many have they hanged or lopped off heads in Iran and Saudi for having ‘illicit’ affairs? Way too many – but it still goes on.
The guest from New York stated a few interesting numbers:
“54% of the youg people in America are virgins”
Then she followed a few minutes later with:
1 or of 4, or 2 out of 4, young people in America have STD
This seems to indicate that 50% or all Young people in American have STDs.
In the case she forgot to qualify here statement to “Of the yound prople who are sexually active, 1 of 4 of 2 of 4 …” She still is saying the 25% of sexually active young people have STDs. I’d like to know the source of her data, because I don;t believe the numbers
The only 100% way to protect yourself from pregnancy and stds is abstinence! -Jennifer
When do all those conservatives who preach abstinence start practicing? It looks like the Bible Belt has the highest rates of teen pregnancy, STDs, violence, divorce, and abortion. Look here and here and here.
It looks like those Christians can’t back up their mythologies with practical results.
@ will,
Guilt AND fear. your willy will drop off if you do this, you will become blind, bla bla
LOL – Thanks, Jess – but I have to disagree.
I just asked a few questions and got the answers.
But I do agree with you: “It’s is baffling the ignorance people have about sex.”
Some use the internet – they just don’t know how to use Google. 🙂
What we learned about sex in the playground was sex information and it was mysterious, fun, scary and exciting. But mostly right because it was collegial. What we learned about sex in the classroom was biological, mechanical and mostly boring because it came from adults. It added nothing to what we had already worked out in the playground. Leave sex education to kids, their friends and their parents – they aren’t stupid – and keep teachers out of it.
Because of the upcoming election, sex education has been an issue that Americans have been talking about lately. I think what is important to keep in mind is that teaching a 5 year old sex education is more about avoiding sexual predators and topincs such as “where do babies come from?”. These are things that I discuss with my three year old son.
Jens & Will ~
Fear & Guilt obviously aren’t working. When will people recognize that another approach might work better? Like, I don’t know, telling the truth…..Novel concept eh?
Humans have evolved to be sexual after puberty but most societies want sex delayed until some later emotional and intellectual maturation and that delay needs to be effectively educated into the kids.
Like a former head of US health said, I forget her name, kids ought to be taught how to masturbate so that they can deal with their sexual urges without having actual sex.
Give them all of the education, tools, and support possible to help them make good decisions in negotiating the minefields of life, give them the map!
To those who advocate sex ed being restricted to parents, that’s fine, but the problem is that it’s NOT happening. Therefore, it falls to the government to attempt to do what needs to happen to protect its citizens. I don’t believe that sex ed needs to be graphic at a young age, but we need to begin to teach kids the things they need to know to protect themselves. The more graphic stuff can be discussed when they get older.
Education should start with the parents. Too many parents are nervous or embarrassed to talk to their children about sex. Which I believe they are more concerned about their children asking them questions about their own past than actually talking about sex itself. Not only does that make a boundry between parents and children but parents are taking the dont ask dont tell approach thinking that if they simply dont talk about it, nothing will happen. Which in my opinion is totally wrong. My parents never talked to me about sex; the only education I recieved was in school during my middle school years (6-8 grades). I wish my parents would have talked to me about it. I would have had a greater respect for them, for myself, and I believe it would have created more trust between us. Now Im a mother of a 2 year old and Im 24 years old. As soon as I become pregnant with my next child (which we are planning by the time he is 5), I plan to tell him exactly how it happened and why mommy’s tummy is growing. It has to be age appropriate and within context. Sex is everywhere in todays society and if people think teaching abstinence is really going to work, thats just silly. Get realistic! You cant stop someone from having sex, but you can educate them to make the right decision. Using condoms, birth control, choosing the right partner, waiting until the right age. I applaud those who have chosen abstinence. I wish I had the knowledge back then. But in todays society we have to face reality. Raising your children in a sex driven society is like raising them in a pack of wolves. Arm them with the knowledge and education they need to stay healthy, and survive.
venessa,
the truth, what a strange concept…..
@ steve October 23, 2008 at 4:45 pm
“@ Selena
LOL. You don’t even admit about daddy issues. Now, I know not to take you seriously. Anyone who’s ever left home and has been on a date knows what daddy issues are and how it makes women absolutely basketcases. I’m sure other male posters will tell some of their stories about these kinds of women.”
So why do you think that you attract women with “daddy issues” instead of mentally healthy women?
Consider owning your own stuff.
but here is something we haven’t discussed:
if you are pregnant at a very young age and you don’t know until the moment you give birth you obviously have had NO pre-natal care, you may be giving birth in a VERY unsafe situation, you are more likely to have been the victim of incest.
THESE THINGS ARE ALL HUGE RISK FACTORS FOR GIVING BIRTH TO BABIES WITH MAJOR HEALTH CONCERNS!!
not to mention the risk factors for the young woman.
you need to know when you are seven or so what the functions of your body parts are and how things happen! there are age-appropriate programs for this and not all children are just parked in front of films showing people having sex!
Tom ~ Masturbation?!? That is so awful and you should feel guilty….
(end sarcasm)
It would be very helpful to have a brief description of the curriculum designed for young children, 5-7yrs.
I support sex education for health reasons and also to give boys & girls the tools to say no to sexual pressure from their peers. I have friends who became pregnant & had to marry; they never talked to their child about sex!
I think it is important to clearly define what the contents of sex education are for different age groups. Many people seem to be put off by the expression “SEX education” for 5 year olds, while at that age it is about learning about your own body in an age appropriate way as well as providing children with knowledge that helps them should they be confronted with sexual abuse for instance.
Jens ~
Living in a dream world for some people is easier than facing what happens in real life.
Tom,
not masturbation, your willy will fall off if you do that……plus you kill millions of spern in such a sensless and selfish act.
There is a difference between biological information on how menstruation or the moment of conception, take place, and the values-laden instruction that encourages youth to experiment, to be sexually active, and to feel that this is a reasonable activity at an age long before they are mature emotionally, independent financially or legally.
If a person is 13, and will still be living as a dependent for 5 or more years, it is not logical to give them the impression that sexual activity is a decision to be made by themselves alone.
Also, sex education is most effectively transmitted within the natural relationship of parents and children. If parents aren’t giving the education, schools could send home an “assignment” to be carried out jointly by parents and children, to facilitate that discussion.
And while we’re at it let’s mention male genital mutilation, AKA circumcision. What’s up with that?
Please do tell children that there is a lot more to sex that the sex act itself. Also tell them about relationships, love, and friendship, holding hands. That will be far more emotionally healthy and will equip them for life. This is about love, not only about reproduction.
Well lets talk about. 5-8 years old, talk about their private parts. Only mommy, daddy, and doctor can exam or help you with those. Explain how they work and why they are there. 9-12 years old, explain the changes they will be happening to their bodies. Menstrual periods, hair growth, breast growth, and maybe even intercourse, all normal things around that age. 13-17 years old, talk about sex and stds. Talk about boys and their hormones, and girls and their hormones. Talk about vulnerability and hey…drinking and drugs for god’s sake. These are all real issues. And you shouldnt just have the talk once, it should be a reoccuring conversation between you and your children.
I truly believe sex education is a must. It should be a partnership between parents and teachers. By teachers getting the parents involved before the class takes place will help the parents prepare their child for the information they will recieve at school. Once they recieve the factual information at school the parents then must show their children the value of a good relationship and all the aspects of what they will eventually find out anyways.
@ Jessica
Why did you not direct your insult directly to me? I mean, I am after all who Will was referring to. I would love to “debate” this with you! Why would someone practice abstinence if they were going to look for a loophole to have some form of intimate contact? That makes no sense at all.
If we were to discuss ignorance, I would like to discuss how many on here….not to name any names but I believe the person I am typing to was one of them, ran with the stick when discussing Sarah Palin’s view of “abstinence only” sex education which was ignorantly WRONG! Where was Google then? Maybe it hadn’t been discovered yet! haha
@Will
I love how you threw in there at the end………are you Catholic……as if sex education should have anything to do with religion or vice versa. It’s nice how YOU generalize! My reasons for being abstinent are simple: I value myself and I want to ensure that the choices I make are the best ones possible. Rushing out there and having sex just to do it is very foolish. It’s playing Russian roulette. Frankly, I value myself much more than that. I don’t want a disease that I will have to deal with for the rest of my life. As much as I LOVE babies and think they are miracles, it’s not the right time for that either.
Tom D Ford
October 23, 2008 at 7:04 pm
I knew if we waited long enough I’d find something that I agreed on with Tom.
The Sec’y of HHS was Donna E. Shalala and she was forced to resign for saying that kids needed to be taught how to masturbate.
Tom D Ford
It must be snowing in hell.
Jessica ~
You sound far too reasonable for the moral police in your ideas about sex education.
On a serious note, what you say is logical and makes sense. My suspicion is that some people automatically assume sex education means talking about intercourse only. Progressive steps are all it takes. As children mature they have questions and to deny answers is dishonest. Kids aren’t stupid and if you don’t tell them they will surely learn from someone else who is most likely less informed.
@ steve October 23, 2008 at 5:22 pm
“@ Will
“Jennifer
The only 100% way to protect yourself from pregnancy and stds is abstinence!
Really? OK. ”
Think it through will, she’s right, unless you have an immaculate conception. If you dont’ have sex, it’s impossible to get pregnant or get an STD.”
It seems that a little sex ed is in order. The fact is that those little swimmers can last for days and they are very good at swimming upstream. You can get a woman pregnant without sexual penetration.
@ Pangolin
“When do all those conservatives who preach abstinence start practicing?”
I do practice what I preach.
@ Tom D Ford
“I notice that kids raised in a Conservative version of religion, fear-based, try to find love and respect in some very self destructive ways, like sex, drugs, and alcohol…I think that religion and its effects don’t usually get questioned and it ought to be.”
Another brilliant man. I completely agree. I grew up in a very religious conservative environment where the only thing discussion was being a virgin was good the not being one sent you to hell. Luckily I had a brilliant father who started speaking to me about “boys” at a young age. It was ridiculous when the callers on todays show implied that sex conversation you have with a child of 7 is the same one you have with a child who is 10-13 years old experiencing puberty. The information is not given all at once and if done properly starts at a young age.
We should educate those of any age what to be aware of just as they should be aware of drug use. I have 4 children and if they are opld enough to go out of my sight I always tell them beforehand, “don’t take anything from a stranger or go with them. If anyone gives you something that looks like medicine or a sweet, or anything at all and he’s not the doctor , don’t take it.” Like wise i say, “the private place is only yours, even Mummy shouldn’t look or touch if there’s nothing wrong there”.
As for sex, it should come in stages. At 5 I think we shouldn’t go beyond cautioning them and telling them that it’s private. After all, if kids see a kiss on the mouth, they want to try (whether you tell them it’s wrong or not), who’s to say they won’t try to experiment with anything else you contribute.
However, I do believe all children of 8+ should get sex ed. since they are close to puberty. After all, many parents find this lesson very difficult. The only rule I think should be that it shouldn’t be a regular teacher, it should be the nurse or a visiting doctor from the local family planning clinic. I also think it’s better to teach the boys separately to girls so that they are more comfortable, ask questions, and don’t feel tempted to treat it as a comedy.
Where I come from sex ed. is a part of Religious studies at around 11 because the children have to know how to ritually cleanse themselves, a requirement for Muslims. If it ween’t for this saving grace, who knows where the children would learn about this and how accurate or helpful would be.
@ Jessica in NYC October 23, 2008 at 5:28 pm
“RE Edgar Hoover
Not, old enough to have lived through his reign as president, …”
J Edgar hoover was head of the FBI for many years, not President; Hoover just blackmailed presidents by constantly investigating them and keeping secret files on them.
Jennifer ~
You may practice whay you preach but it’s absurd to think that everyone else does as well.
@ Venessa
Please provide proof that I said sex education should not be taught?
Jennifer ~ I didn’t say anything about you saying education shouldn’t be taught. I was pointing out while you may not be a hypocrite there are plenty of people that are.
@ Shaun in Halifax
“How did you feel the first time your children asked you about sex? And how did you approach the delicate subject?”
While I am not a parent, I would like to add that you and your husband/partner should be on the same page with the information you give your child. I use to compare my parents answers to see if I was being told the truth. I would wait until my mom was cooking, so she was “glued” top the stove to ask my questions. Then I would run to my father when he was working on the car to ask him the same questions.
And about the other “stuff”, no problem, I understood.
@ Tom D Ford
Damn! Was thinking of Herbert Hoover.
Sex education is good; a unique kind of education that concerns emotional matters at the heart of our nature as human beings. It should be encouraged and promoted. However, the timing of introduching children to sex education is crucial: at 5, 6, 7 years; no no! Where, why and how? May be from ten and above – relative to various situations and societies. We must note, however, that sex education can only help as much, in our societies “infected with sexual misbehaviours” that are – to say the least – “celebrated and promoted”. Sex education, no doubt will help, but childern remain sadly at the mercy of our “sick societies” that will shape their lives and emotional development.
I wish people would stop thinking about sex education as intercourse only.
And I think parents should know their children enough to know the age that would be best for them to talk about certain subjects. Some children are more mature and responsible than others at the same age. It all depends on the household, community and part of the world you live in. But it should be taught in any case. Progressively.
@Jessica.
Not all religious parents are that disturbed about sex (my parents are devout Muslims but Dad was open with the boys and Mum was open with us). If you know your religion, heck quite a bit is about sex! Sex Ed. should be seen as a part of Religion, not against it.
Abstinance not Ignorance.
@ Pangolin
“When do all those conservatives who preach abstinence start practicing?”
I do practice what I preach.
A sample size of one is not valid in a group of millions.
I absolutely agree with you, Jessica!
We can banter back and forth all day about the value or cost of sex education in schools, what it really comes down to is the home environment or lack there of. A child will process all information through the filters of his/or her experience. In the years leading up to adolescence, the home environment makes up the majority of those experiences, obvious exceptions apply of course. Point being, if a child has been given a firm foundation for living and a secure environment in which to nurture that foundation, then sex education would only edify that child. The only people that have problems with teaching kids about sex are the people that have problems with sex……….
@ Jens
“common, it was a dirty but funny comment.”
(How about if I agree to laugh at the comment with you, but under no other circumstance) 😉 … And the movie was [–] fantastic.
—-
@ Shaun in Halifax
“What was the name of that doc? Was it the religion one?”
Help, I missed something… maybe it was a comment by someone else.
—
@ All
fyi— Jessica with a green icon is not Jessica in NYC.
duly noted. my comment was for you Jessica in NYC.
Jess,
OK agreed
@ Lori In Oregon, USA October 23, 2008 at 6:50 pm
“I think many adults need basic “how to be human lessons” –”
Interesting point.
That will generate some thinking.
Wow, there wasn’t too much that I would have wanted to say that wasn’t. One thing did stick out.
Jennifer,
Sarah Palin’s 17 year old daughter is pregnant. Taking sex educational advice from her is about as valid as taking business advice from Joe the Plumber. Hell, it seems that her own youngest was not exactly planned. I mean who plans a pregnancy 2 months after getting into the governorship? So whatever Sarah thinks about this is a moot point.
Also, where did you find out about the failure rate of birth control and STD’s. I heard about them in school. My parents told me it was impossible to have sex until you were married. That was all the info given. Turns out the word “impossible” has a different meaning.
If people want to stop welfare families from growing, you had best find a way to educate them. Watch Maury Polvich for one afternoon, and tell me this kids were properly educated in sex.
You might want to tell that to my best friend’s ex girlfriend, who had such daddy issues she lost her virginity at 14 to a 35 year old man. I’m sure she’s not a basketcse at all.
NO, she is not a basket case! He most definitely is a basket case. He should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. His issues run deep!
How can anyone use this sad example to prove a point? We have more problems with men than we can ever imagine, it seems.
@ Venessa October 23, 2008 at 7:13 pm
“Tom ~ Masturbation?!? That is so awful and you should feel guilty….
(end sarcasm)”
Oh I do, I certainly do. Often.
Er, ahem, feel guilty of course, not that other un-mentionable activity.
(another end sarcasm)
@ Jessica October 23, 2008 at 7:45
“I wish people would stop thinking about sex education as intercourse only.”
Completely agree with you. Sex ed for me was never taught as only intercourse. It is unfortunate that that is the only aspect that is often discussed.
—–
@ Om Ali
“Not all religious parents are that disturbed about sex (my parents are devout Muslims but Dad was open with the boys and Mum was open with us). If you know your religion, heck quite a bit is about sex! Sex Ed. should be seen as a part of Religion, not against it.”
I do not think that abstinence is ignorance. I think that teaching abstinence ONLY is ignorant. More parents should be as progressive as yours and not be threaten by discussing sex education. The unfortunate part about religion is that it’s “teachers” often focus and emphasis the aspects they see most important and frown upon questioning any aspect of their religion or teachings.
@ Selena
She lied to him about her age, she looked back then to be an adult. She would hang around in bars, that sort of thing. She went out to get much older men at that age. she’s the one with issues. Sure, what he did was statutory rape, even if you are lied to about age, there is no defense. But he thought she was an adult. She’s the one with the issues. And it came from daddy issues and no self esteem.
@ David Blaker October 23, 2008 at 7:19 pm
“Please do tell children that there is a lot more to sex that the sex act itself. Also tell them about relationships, love, and friendship, holding hands. That will be far more emotionally healthy and will equip them for life. This is about love, not only about reproduction.”
Several others have posted this obvious quote from somewhere and without attribution.
I just want to say that I have had sex at times just because it is fun. And fun sex is really fun!
There’s nothing like spending an entire Sunday in bed reading the newspaper and having fun sex with my girlfriend.
Re-creation does not have to be Pro-creation!
Tickling, laughter, play, yep, sex can be fun!
@ archibald in oregon
“A child will process all information through the filters of his/or her experience. In the years leading up to adolescence, the home environment makes up the majority of those experiences, obvious exceptions apply of course. Point being, if a child has been given a firm foundation for living and a secure environment in which to nurture that foundation, then sex education would only edify that child.”
I very much agree with your statement about a child filtering experiences from early childhood. It is important for a child to have a firm foundation for living and a secure home environment because those go hand in hand with self respect and set the stage for how we view ourselves and others in the big wide world.
My mom was an active parent. She did not wait for me to ask her questions; she would often bring up things on her own and we would discuss them. I have always been close to her. I took the things she told me much more to heart than the sex education I received at school. There was of course the facts of birth control, pregnancy, and the emotional commitment. but there was also the seeing those things come into play firsthand that let me piece it all together and make a choice.
People who don’t want to discuss sex with their children are not afraid of sex. There is a time and place for everything. If a child asks a question, answer it in an age appropriate way. But, no, a 5 year old doesn’t need to know about condoms, the pill, etc. Talk about parts of the body and answer questions but don’t tell them everything at once. The first time I asked my mom where babies came from, she told me that she picked us from the cabbage patch. That is not factual; however there was no harm in it. I remember my mom laughing more than her giving me “misinformation”. Later that day, I asked again and got a factual answer.
@ Tom
Have “fun” reading this:
http://preventdisease.com/news/articles/herpes_explode_by_2025.shtml
@ people who criticize parents for talking talking about sex
Why don’t you have sex in front of your kids? Why sugar coat the truth and not give them the gory details, otherwise you are ashamed yourselves? So tell your 6 year old about your one night stands, all the acts you’ve done. You’re talking about other parents being ashamed about sex, so why don’t you not sugarcoat it?
@ Dan October 23, 2008 at 7:25 pm
“Tom D Ford
October 23, 2008 at 7:04 pm
I knew if we waited long enough I’d find something that I agreed on with Tom.
The Sec’y of HHS was Donna E. Shalala and she was forced to resign for saying that kids needed to be taught how to masturbate.”
And @ Dan October 23, 2008 at 7:25 pm
“Tom D Ford
It must be snowing in hell.”
Dan, thanks for that acknowledgment, and as long as it’s snowing let’s go skiing, we might as well have fun while we’re suffering. I don’t snowboard but you’re welcome to if that’s your preference.
@ Dwight
We are not talking about Sarah Palin’s daughter being pregnant. We are talking about sex education and the fact that in the post information for this discussion it stated that she believes in abstinence only. That is inaccurate. You don’t think that parents talk to their children about sex but they get pregnant anyway? If you think that’s accurate you had better lock your kids up or you are in for a big surprise if one of them comes up with a bun in the oven!
The information I took to heart about sex came from my mom; who is a nurse. I do believe that sex education should be taught to children but abstinence should too! It is the ONLY way to protect yourself from unplanned pregnancy and disease. Of course, I should note that it MUST be complete abstinence so that I don’t generalize. You know, people try to find all of these loopholes just so they can say they are abstinent ‘case it’s cool and everything!
@ Jennifer October 23, 2008 at 7:29 pm
“@ Pangolin
“When do all those conservatives who preach abstinence start practicing?”
I do practice what I preach.”
I suspect that you are one of all too few Conservatives who do and I tend to think that you have had the benefit of a well-educated and concerned mother while growing up.
I don’t agree with you about abstinence but I’ll sure admit that I respect you for it and for your knowledge about all of it.
Care to join Dan and I in skiing in hell as long as it’s snowing there?
Why get into such a tizzy over this? Children start asking questions about where they come from at a very early age and they need an answer to process. They do not need anyone’s baggage – just something simple and straightforward. There is no good reason for all this angst and kefuffle.
I think that sex-ed at an early age can be a way to help protect young children. It seems to me that young children are amongst those most susceptible to sexual predators. Perhaps we should educate young children in such a way that might help protect them from sexual abuse and exploitation.
tom,
got to disappoint you, there is no hell…….although i would be working very hard to get there if there was skiing there….
There’s a lot of talk of sex-ed, but little about what this sex-ed actually is.
Malc
Berlin
tom,
got to disappoint you, there is no hell…….although i would be working very hard to get there if there was skiing there….– Jens
Bakersfield CA will do in a pinch. There’s no skiing there either.
@ Steve
Sorry to not rise to your Strawman argument but, in fact, to some extent that’s exactly what parents should do.
Oh, I’m not talking about putting on sex shows for toddlers but any discussion about sex (and your toddlers WILL ask embarrassing questions) needs to be in the context of “Mummy and Daddy love each other and that’s how we came to make a lovely baby like you were”. If the child asks a follow up question, answer it, simply but accurately.
As for sex in front of children, I bet there are few parents who haven’t been “walked in on” by children at some point. What are you going to say to the inevitable questions? I’m not sure my kids would have believed that we were just practicing for a Greco-Roman wrestling competition.
pangolin,
i have actually been to bakersfield and yes you are right…..
I lived in Victorville, CA for three years, right in the middle of the Mojave Desert, it was toasty warm. Back in the fifties. I was a kid and it was fun.
Jens, I know there is no literal Hell, that’s why I can joke about it.
On parents, kids and sex.
Now I am wondering about when and how sex became something to hide away, something shameful, to feel guilty about. Cavemen? Nomadic tribes? First villages? When religion first showed its ugly head? And how did the early Inuits, other Native Americans, Australian Aborigines, Mongols, etc, deal with it? Little houses on the prairie? And did any civilization celebrate it openly?
Tom ~ I would like to blame religion for making sex shameful but I can’t prove it…..
TO VENESSA
Venessa, I do not know what took me to the debate again, but it was good I did because I have the oportunituy to read your corrupt and shameful contribiution. What I mean is that religion did not make sex shamful, innate morality and spirituality makes it shamful. If you can demonstrate that it is not innate morality and spirituality go on and have sex in tbne open any time and every time that you want to have sex. Go on, do it, and see if you can do it. Even women who are married have to get over a tinge of uneasy state of mind when they become pregnant because of the interaction of the innate morality and spirituality with social sensitivity.
Even in ones privacy innate morality and spirituality limit what one does and that happens to everyone, including atheists, secularists, mihilists, agnostics, materialists and naturalists. Everyone has innate morality and spirituality that retrains or regulates thought, beliefs and actions. These virtues are what we generally call conscience. We all act against this innate morality and spirituality or conscience when we do what is wrong , think what is corrupt, and speak what is corrupt; and when we defend what is corrupt — as when sex education, children having sex, contraception and abortion are defended, or argued for.
You can say that man is innately religious; in which case we could speak of innate religiosity as a restraining factor and what makes sex shameful. That is a virtue. Its lack is a perversion of humanness and its destruction is a vice
Prince Awele Odor
Lagos, Nigeria
@ tom,
that is why i joined in. no place like hell……
@ Venessa October 24, 2008 at 4:13 am
“Tom ~ I would like to blame religion for making sex shameful but I can’t prove it…..’
Celibate priests?!?!?!
I suspect that the “mysteries” of life, puberty, sex, birth, love, etc, have been used to gain control over people to the peoples detriment.
If we strip away all of the controls, judgments, religious strictures, etc and just look at humans as human beings who evolved to reproduce themselves sexually because it feels good to do so, well, we get down to basics.
Then we can build our understandings from there.
Religion? Who benefits? And how do they benefit?
Well i think the parents are the best people to talk to thier kids about sex education. Most parents put fear in thier kids by making them scared that if you have sex you will contact HIV/AIDs, most times the relationship they keep with them will make them go out and try it because they will say, A is having it and is ok and says is fun, B confirms it as well. Parents should build a FRIEND to FRIEND relationship with thier kids, not father and child or mother and child relationship with them. By building a FRIEND to FRIEND relationship with them they will tell you things about thier sexaul life and know that they will be safe and get good advice from thier FRIEND not thier parents, because a friend will not slap you or shout at you about what your problems are concerning sex but parents would do that. Parents should build that kind of relationship and see what will happen, we will have less of premature pregenacy.
Sex Education is a very broad subject. There is need to do careful selection of what is taught to these children.
They should instance not be taught love making skills!
Re: Religion making sex shameful
“Everyone has innate morality and spirituality that retrains or regulates thought, beliefs and actions. These virtues are what we generally call conscience.”
I think the above statement is more accurate than pointing fingers at religion as if it is to blame for anyone seeing sex as shameful. There are many other reasons people can view sex as shameful such as poor body image or past sexual abuse. They may also feel like they are being pressured into something they are not ready for. There should also be a distinction made between being shy or modest and seeing something as shameful.
If we were to say that people should let go of all personal reservations and just have sex whenever we choose with no forethought at all it would be a disaster. As it is, today we have people so do choose to just have sex for the fun of it. The end results are not so fun….people loosing their self respect and dignity because they think that sex = love. It cheapens something that should be special. Unwanted babies being born and spreading disease are fun? No. People should use good judgment and self restraint because if not, you are putting yourself at risk for life changing occurrences that won’t be fun at all.
@ Tom D Ford
(October 24, 2008 at 3:18 am)
Regarding your question of nomadic tribes and do any modern native people celebrate sex freely within the family unit:
I hold a Ph.D in Anthropology and studied the Motu people of the highlands of Papua New Guinea who tend to have familial huts where the parents enjoy a normal sex life with no shame or need to hide their actions, the whole family sleep on the one ‘sleeping mat’ made of reeds/grasses/palm leaves & can often include siblings of the main parental couple and their mates or children that have taken their own mate in due course…
The age for a first pregnancy is usually within the 18-21 age group which I’m sure is older than many more industrialised nations stats.
I have no doubt that this is/was the case with other nomadic tribes and as you say yourself, cavemen et al
Sex is not dirty or embarrassing, it’s a shame that often the parents are the ones to put their own ‘hang-ups’ onto their children by the nature that they discuss the subject.
Dr. C
Even if religion makes sex shameful, I think there’s still a purpose for it. If everyone was having sex with everyone else, all the time, there would be mass infections of STDs. Also, people no longer need to have 10 kids to ensure that 2 survive. The world would get even more overpopulated, and STDs would be rampant, and even worse diseases would come along.
Hi WHYSers!
I missed this discussion yesterday, though I did catch the tailend of the discussion on the way to lunch. That being said, I think that this topic is especially timely given the high numbers of Sexually Transmitted Infections (STIs) that may result whether from early sexual initiation or lack of adequate information. I am all for education in its broadest sense. That means that sex education should encompass all the components that children need to know, including abstinence and contraception. Age appropriate information complemented/ reinforced by accurate information from the home is also important. Over exposure is obviously a matter of concern on this subject. However, children must be equipped with information, including the religious and moral perspectives on these life and death issues. Goverments, through their education systems are obligated to facilitate the realisation of this right in even the youngest of their citizens!
@ Caer, Australia October 24, 2008 at 3:51 pm
“@ Tom D Ford
(October 24, 2008 at 3:18 am)
Regarding your question of nomadic tribes and do any modern native people celebrate sex freely within the family unit: …”
Thanks for writing that. That’s about what I suspected but I very much appreciate your writing about it.
I didn’t expect this:
“The age for a first pregnancy is usually within the 18-21 age group which I’m sure is older than many more industrialised nations stats.”
That brings up questions about when do they start sex, how do they prevent pregnancies until that age, is there a taboo about sex until marriage, what do the adults teach about sex, what can the US learn from them about how to delay pregnancies like that, how do they get kids from puberty to that age without pregnancies, etc.
“Sex is not dirty or embarrassing, it’s a shame that often the parents are the ones to put their own ‘hang-ups’ onto their children by the nature that they discuss the subject.”
Parents and religionists, both.
On sex.
If it is not fun you’re not doing it right.
I wasn’t going to comment originally. But, just a couple of points. Allow children to have a childhood for God’s sake! It’s down to all of us to take on that responsibility, and not allow political correctness in all its insidious shapes and forms to grab hold and manacle us to a world, where we no longer know whether we’re coming or going.
Only in the UK could we do this and pretend we’re doing what’s best for the children. Why is there a considerably lower pregnancy, abortion rate and level of STI’s throughout practically all of Europe. It’s because there just isn’t the same emphasis on the whole subject of sex. Children are allowed to be children by and large and to show affection and to be hugged by uncles, aunties and sit on grandpa’s knee without a second thought.
British children were recently in a survey shown pictures of children in certain situations like a child on their grandpa’s knee, and the exact same shown to European children. Outcome of this and other findings was: Euro children said what a nice picture of Grandpa, British children with no hesitation – paedophile and pervert. What the hell has happened here! What have we inculcated and indoctrinated very young minds with! Every other scene was Euro children positive and British children negative and disrespectful. This is a complete, utter and sick joke!
Their is so little respect amongst young children once they reach a certain age in the towns and cities of the UK. Add to that next to nil discipline by parents and none allowed to be given by teachers. They quickly find other outlets of interest, when no interest is taken in them, and this often leads to a very negative path.
It’s very simple kids in the UK have TVs in their bedrooms at a very early age in a lot of cases, and are on computers non stop. Again statistics show UK kids spend 70-80% of leisure time on computer games with less than 20% of their time spent on exercise and physical activity. Euro kids 20-30% of their time on computer games and 70-80% on exercise and physical activity. This behaviour develops itself very early on from when they’re young children and continues into their teens and beyond. But if you have a child who’s sole interest is nothing beyond material goods in the main and their all pervasive influence, what can you expect! Never mind their dietary habits in the UK in comparison to Europe once more. I have a sneaking feeling that there is a similar pattern in large swathes of the young population in the USA.
I’m sorry to have to say this, but the UK seems to have a wonderful habit of committing and repeating the same excesses of worst behaviour as shown to us by America. We are a mirror image of the USA but in miniature.
On sex.
It should be painful,feel guilty, shameful, and avoided at all costs!
Hmm. Very interesting that my first post about sex being fun was rejected twice but my post that it should be negative was immediately given the OK by moderators.
So. Does anybody moderate the moderators?
Does anyone track ‘vindictive” moderators?
Does anyone track moderators who reject posts out of political or religious objections? AKA moderators who believe they are the judges of Politically Correct writing?
Is there a certain Politically Correct moderator who “stalked me” for a post on the sex education topic so that she could reject my post?
Is there a better time to post that avoids judgment by the Politically Correct Conservative moderators?
Is paranoia fun or what?
What’s the definition of “is’?
@ Tom D. Ford
Blog posting should be painful, make you feel guilty & shameful and should be avoided at all costs.
Seriously, I can’t answer your question about moderation–I just got in from running some errands and found a number of posts awaiting approval including your “painful, guilty” one which I approved without hesitation. Your “fun sex” post was already approved the first time I saw it. So…dunno what may have happened earlier but it appears all is okay now.
@ Bob in Queensland October 25, 2008 at 8:09 am
Thanks Bob.
Usually everything just goes fine but every once in a while some weirdness happens at what seems to be coincidentally weird times and I just can’t help but wonder if some people who have moderator status misuse the trust they have been given.
It always amazes and amuses me how people like Steve visualise hypothetical situations like the one above, where everyone has sex with everyone else. Such nonsense – it would never happen no matter how hard you think about it – should stay in its place – in the heads of people like Steve.
The same hysterical scenarios were created by those who fought legalising homosexuality: “if we allow it, just imagine what would happen”, and off they’d go describing a fantasmogorical scenario. Homosexuality became legalised, and none of the scenarios materialised.
@ Tom D Ford
October 25, 2008 at 1:42 am
Firstly, thank you for the positive feedback, I wasn’t sure you’d check back to read my response.
In answer to your question regarding the Motu age range for first births: This information only relates to these people although I’m sure other nomadic or less industrialised populations have their own similar customs.
Firstly, as sex is not hidden away from children or other members of the familial hut/home by the adults, children learn by both verbal and visual/aural means. They grow up with the concept that sex is both normal and natural in a committed relationship.
There are at least three factors that prevent earlier pregnancy:
1) That these tribes still have a ‘Bride Price’ and to not be virginal would seriously deplete their worth in pigs or whatever (pigs are the usual form of payment) – when I did my thesis, a woman of medium to high status was worth up to about 5-10 pigs with a high value for the ruling family at about 15 pigs
.
2) I know the females ‘of age’ chew Betelnut and another root of a local plant to dry their cyclic vaginal secretions, thus decreasing the chance of pregnancy greatly. Abortion is almost unknown, although I’m sure a woman with an unwanted pregnancy may attempt to miscarry through strenuous work etc. etc. but the costal people (not usually Motu due to geography) will leave an unwanted child below the tide line for their gods to decide it’s future. Naturally this is only if nobody else in their tribe will take the child.
3) Rape is very rare as a man who has ‘stolen’ a girl’s maidenhead would be fined the ‘Bride Price’ at it’s highest level and usually also then banished from their traditional tribal lands.
I know this may be in more detail than you may have wished, Tom, but it’s hard to explain in less words when I’m talking of a people you may (I assume) know little of.
Caer
The first thing to register about this issue is that in the 21st Century it is still an issue at all. Children should have sex explained to them by their parents. The fact that vast numbers of “parents” are either too childish,stupid or lazy to do the job means that their characteristics are paseed on to their kiddies and so the cycle begins again from one generation to the next. All parents should be educated about how to explain to children about sex. Then the schools should devise their own programs so the kiddies get a double dose of intellectual expansion. Once they become thinking humans it is their decision about how to conduct their love lives and they must bear the consequences. As always, ignorance is public enemy number one.
Tom. Tom, Tom…
Is there a certain Politically Correct moderator who “stalked me” for a post on the sex education topic so that she could reject my post?
Why she?
@ selena in Canada October 25, 2008 at 1:39 pm
“Tom. Tom, Tom…
Is there a certain Politically Correct moderator who “stalked me” for a post on the sex education topic so that she could reject my post?
Why she?”
Good point. I just assumed that Jennifer was a female because it seems to always be a female name. Some time ago when Jennifer was “moderating” some of my posts kept mysteriously disappearing until other moderators came around and started asking what was going on and then the mysterious problem cleared up.
I am willing to be wrong, though.
@ Caer, Australia October 25, 2008 at 12:14 pm
“@ Tom D Ford
October 25, 2008 at 1:42 am
Firstly, thank you for the positive feedback, I wasn’t sure you’d check back to read my response.
…
I know this may be in more detail than you may have wished, Tom, but it’s hard to explain in less words when I’m talking of a people you may (I assume) know little of.
Caer”
Thanks. When I ask questions like that I usually check back, because I know that someone somewhere can help relieve me of my ignorance.
I don’t know anything about the Motu but I have had some learning about such cultures from Margaret Mead and others and so when I run into some religious conservative who asserts absolute knowledge and judgment about humans I ask for and look at other cultures and how they deal with the subject at hand.
The detail was just right, though I have a habit of going off and studying other peoples when I happily run into someone like you.
I had not considered any of the three points that you wrote about, and I am glad that you did write. I don’t see any way that they could be useful in the US for delaying pregnancies.
Britney spears and bride price pigs?
Palin chewing Betelnut?
And “a man who has ’stolen’ a girl’s maidenhead” and being banished; I’m afraid that the attitude of boys being lauded for getting laid and girls being called sluts for getting laid still prevails in the US.
Thanks Caer, I appreciate your help.
Signed; A little less ignorant, Tom D Ford
@ Shakhoor Rehman October 25, 2008 at 12:36 pm
‘… As always, ignorance is public enemy number one.”
Yes, but on the contrary, ignorance is Conservative friend number one!
@ Tom D Ford
October 26, 2008 at 3:27 am
“Britney spears and bride price pigs?
Palin chewing Betelnut?”
In Britney’s case, maybe a hindquarter?
*smirk*
As for our pal Sarah, the Motu women chew Betelnut as a general habit, much like an American may use Wrigley’s… but as the nut also makes their teeth a rich dark red/burgundy colour, they also polish their teeth to show it off:
For the contraceptive purpose, it needs to be combined with the root of another local plant, as I said above.
The look could be her new fashion trend when she loses the election and has to return to Alaska.
It’s considered remote and removed to most Americans, isn’t it? – a bit like PNG is to Australia… 😉
Thanks for your friendly reply, I’d be happy to hear from you anytime I may be of use with info. and the like.
Caer.
@ Tom
Normally, I choose to simply overlook you but I will address your posts here with regard to your moderating questions.
You should know that this politically correct female moderator has a rock solid alibi. I was at my grandmother’s house all day yesterday. I drove 4 hours and spent the day and drove 4 hours back home. My computer was not even turned on yesterday. Any problems with your posts were not in any way connected with me. Stalk you? Tell me you are not serious…….
You are such a special gem; I’d never want to do anything that would stifle your opinions. As much as I don’t agree with your viewpoints there is NO WAY I would ever not let your posts through just for that reason. I did post your comments the one day I moderated. All of your posts were approved but when I refreshed my browser your first one was gone. When you resubmitted it, I assumed that it had been deleted by someone else because it was gone so I deleted it again. There was no intentionally censoring you by me. EVER! I would never misuse the moderating privileges I have; no matter who’s post it was.
As for moderating now, I asked for rights again because my posts were disappearing. I only now have moderator rights again-for my own posts. I find it very curious that anyone would think deleting someone’s posts would be anything other than immature and small minded. It would take someone who had a hard time accepting the fact that there are many varying viewpoints on this blog to do that. I couldn’t imagine feeling threatened just because people had different beliefs. It’s pathetic. I am for the moderators being moderated! 🙂
And, yes, I am a girl.
@ Tom
P.S.
I recommend if you have a snip tool on your computer you use it. That way you have proof you submitted your posts in case there is ever a problem with one. 🙂
I hope that helps you.
i will speak from my soceity and cultutral point of viwe, in Orient sex is a taboo topic, although many crimes could be going on in the secret or in “cachette”. recently only some enlightended people tried to speak up and talk that taboo, it is importnat for children to protect them from sexual harassements for example, but the informayion should be given according to each age and each year. as more of it can be harmfull….
5 yrs old for sex education is too young! i think mine started in the upper primary level. like 11-12 years old where there were videos with guys asking their parents why did i wet my bed or girls being told that they’ve stained their skirt. then we got free pads from sponsors! only in secondary school we got to really open up to the subject of sex, abstinence etc etc, still with videos and some very reluctant teachers. in junior college/high school my sch invited a gay who was educated in catholic schools all his life to tell us about his life story and the different sexual orientations. i guess this slow build up in knowledge is much better than shoving them into kids faces so fast!
@ Caer, Australia October 26, 2008 at 10:43 am
“@ Tom D Ford
October 26, 2008 at 3:27 am
“Britney spears and bride price pigs?
Palin chewing Betelnut?”
In Britney’s case, maybe a hindquarter?
*smirk*” …
Considering what you wrote about open family sexuality and also rigid taboos, I wonder if the Motu children play “pretend sex’, in imitation of their parents, in the same way that American children play ‘family”.
Role modeling is so important but how do the Motu people deal with role modeling sex to their children?
I admit that I don’t even have the right question in mind, I don’t even know how to frame it.
Hm, considering the taboos, how do they let children know that sex is appropriate in the right circumstance and also let them know that it is forbidden in the wrong time?
Kids play and compare, but how is that dealt with?
@ Jennifer October 26, 2008 at 4:17 pm
“@ Tom
P.S.
I recommend if you have a snip tool on your computer you use it. That way you have proof you submitted your posts in case there is ever a problem with one. 🙂
I hope that helps you.”
What is a “snip” tool?
You are a Conservative and so cannot be trusted, the record of Conservatives is well marbled with lies and deception, WMDs for example. In the eyes of the world a Conservative is a Liar and should be punished for deception.
So. I have no reason to believe your current “explanations”.
You Conservatives have a long way to go to re-establish any semblance of credibility.
Tom
Unfortunately some posters on this blog have a problem that we moderators don’t moderate quick enough, delete their posts, or do all and sundry not to allow their voice (type) to be heard.
A snip tool is a software program that you can capture an image of what you see on-screen, anyone has it for free with ‘screen-shot’ or the PrtScn key on your keyboard.
People do this so they can ‘Prove’ they have submitted a post, quite odd really. As a point of interest, we have our guidelines to live by, we use them – but if anyone wishes to see how we bend over backward to get people to have a say here, go to CNN blogs and try to post a link in your reply – the standard is, CNN will just delete the post. Email them until you are blue in the face, they will not reply and delete your mail, too.
Hope that helps.
is this the second same discussion on when to and how to teach kids about sex and its consequences…if i was taught that mosquitoes could bite me at even a tender age and cause malaria,then i wanna be taught too about those ailments that aint a respecter of age.
THE LAST DAD
papa rock
vihiga or uthiru/kenya
@ Tom
A snip tool allows you to use your mouse and select something on your screen and save it. I use it now because my posts often seem to delete themselves. It provides proof that your post was submitted which allows you to verify that it was sent to be posted, if say, your post is deleted for no reason and after many attempts no moderator lets you know what’s going on, or words are changed around within a post….. It’s very useful! That’s why I recommended you use it from now on if you have questions regarding your posts.
You are more than welcome to not believe anything I have to say with regards to my explanation. I didn’t owe you one, but I felt it necessary to set you straight in your far out thoughts. I did nothing to your posts.
@Will:
Good points—after watching the BP today (27/10), I wonder if the BBC wouldn’t be better off to take CNN’s approach.