21
Oct
08

Talking Points 21st October

Hello there, a British aid worker has been killed by Taliban insurgents in Afghanistan who accused her of preaching Christianity. Should aid workers be allowed to preach and convert?

Gayle Williams was shot because she worked for a christian charity, Serve Afghanistan – although Mike Lyth, the charity’s chairman says she was not preaching:
“We are Christians. That is what gives us the motivation to go into a dangerous and difficult country to try to help. But she was not involved in proselytisation.” This columnist in the Times thinks people shouldn’t use aid missions to spread their faith. But this US blogger thinks Christians should be praised for their work, not censored. It’s not the first time aid workers have been targeted for their faith, last year 23 South Koreans were taken hostage for preaching Christianity in Afghanistan and two killed.
So should aid workers always separate material needs from spiritual ones? Do they have a duty to provide help without conditions? Or should they be encouraged to spread their faith if it is important to them?

Let us know what you think.

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Also causing some controversy in the US and UK – a video game has been delayed from release because it contained some verses from the Koran as background music. Sony wanted to remove the verses before they caused offense, but how sensitive is too sensitive? Can you cause offence before anyone is offended?

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WHYS regular Jessica in New York pointed out this accolade that Obama has already won. His election campaign has been named Marketer of the Year by US advertising magazine ‘Ad Age’, beating big brands like Apple computers and Nike. Does this mean people believe in brands over politics?

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And one more for you to think about….a poll has found that nearly 60% of Americans think that McCain’s campaign has been “unfairly negative” towards Obama. Are personal attacks on politicians okay?


102 Responses to “Talking Points 21st October”


  1. 1 Jessica in NYC
    October 20, 2008 at 19:08

    Hi Kelsie,

    From the AP What’s a gift? Sen. Stevens testifies on freebies
    “The Senate’s longest-serving Republican, Stevens is charged with lying on Senate financial disclosure forms about $250,000 in renovations and other gifts he received from oil services contractor VECO Corp.”

    I [love] the way the US keeps harping on about corruption in other counties, but can clearly not stop our own “leaders” from it. I once worked in government, before I was contracted/employed I had so sign and read through a 50 page document that CLEARLY outlined what gifts where and that the total of gift from anyone be valued at more than $25 (I believe annually).

  2. 2 steve
    October 20, 2008 at 19:13

    @ Jessica

    You might want to wait until he’s convicted to make those comments. or do you think guilt should be presumed?

  3. 3 Kelsie in Houston
    October 20, 2008 at 19:14

    Hi Jessica:
    Yes, the U.S. protestations of corruption elsewhere seem a bit hypocritical in light of the graft oiling the cogs of our own bureaucracy. I wonder why this is–are we inured to the sins of our politicians, or “justify” political discrepancies by retreating into the assumption that, while corrupt to an extent, American politics are perhaps less so than elsewhere?

  4. 4 Roy, Washington DC
    October 20, 2008 at 19:24

    @ Jessica

    No kidding. We have legalized bribery in this country, masquerading as “campaign contributions”.

  5. October 20, 2008 at 19:26

    Kels –

    Sorry to remind you but, as you’re American, you are immune to being convicted of corruption let alone being accused of it!

  6. 7 Jessica in NYC
    October 20, 2008 at 19:27

    @ Steve

    My comments were general and I stand by my criticism that the US condemns corruption in other counties, but can clearly not stop our own “leaders” from it. There are many-many politicians who have lost their jobs over this.

    Sen. Steven’s case was an example of another scandal. While he reminds innocent until his guilt is is determined, as a public servant the overwhelming evidence against him allows the public to weigh in. This is hardly the first time such a scandal is rocked any house of our government.

  7. 9 Kelsie in Houston
    October 20, 2008 at 19:28

    @Will:
    We don’t even call it “corruption”–that’s a word for Italy 😉 …call it, “undue influence” or “impropriety”–they’re nicer words.

  8. October 20, 2008 at 19:29

    Jess

    You wouldn’t be saying that Stevens was being un-ethical are you?

  9. October 20, 2008 at 19:32

    Kels –

    I see, while their impropriety leads to improper conduct in an eventual tale of undue influence and juxtaposing of the not so complete eloquence of corroborative factoids – it’s all good?

  10. 12 Tom D Ford
    October 20, 2008 at 19:33

    @ Jessica in NYC October 20, 2008 at 7:08 pm

    On political bribes.

    What has always astounded me is how cheaply the pols sell out the people who voted for them.

    I’d like to see a website that looks like a stock exchange ticker board that reports on the various parts of the political bribe process, the newspaper reports with allegations, the actual charges, the actual trial and hearing verdicts, how many constituents were sold down the river, who did the alleged bribery and what they got for it, and then the newly established going rate to buy off politicians. Certainly the lobbyist firms know all of these details and going rates, I’d just like to see some investigative reporting done to make it all public.

    Ronald “Amiable Dunce” Reagan sold out for a million dollar ranch given to him after he left office, by the people who benefited from his screwing the American People. He deregulated the Savings & Loans, which cost Americans some 700 billion dollars and he only took payoff of a one million dollar ranch. Reagan, “The Great Prevaricator”, was a bad politician and even worse businessman!

  11. 13 Kelsie in Houston
    October 20, 2008 at 19:35

    @Will:
    Bwahaha! You’ve got it–Go grab the phone: it’s Senator Stevens calling you up to write his explanation for the investigation.

  12. 14 Roy, Washington DC
    October 20, 2008 at 19:37

    On China’s economy slowing down as a result of less demand — What did you expect? We buy so much from them that something like this was inevitable given our economic situation. There is a certain retailer here that I have heard people jokingly refer to as the “economic arm of the People’s Republic of China”. It’s hard to find just about anything these days that doesn’t have a “Made In _____” label. Americans want it now, and they want it cheap.

  13. 15 Jessica in NYC
    October 20, 2008 at 19:38

    @ Will

    You heathen… Americans are “NEVER-ever” unethical or wrong, for that matter. …/as my horse drops me on my [butt].

  14. 16 Julie P
    October 20, 2008 at 19:40

    @Jess,

    It’s just another day in DC as far as I’m concerned.

  15. 17 Dan
    October 20, 2008 at 19:43

    @Jessica in NYC October 20, 2008 at 7:27 pm
    You are way too cynical. After all there has not been a Congressman in modern times who has retired anything less than a millionaire despite coming to the Congress dirt poor.
    How did Obama afford his multimillion dollar home? How about “dirt poor” Joe Biden living in a multimillion dollar home? At least McCain had the decency & integrity to marry his fortune.

  16. October 20, 2008 at 19:45

    Kels –

    I would be the one prosecuting him if I could 👿

    Jess –

    I think that Palin will take that ethicalness to a new hight! Well….once she gets back in Al-ask-ha. Did she know Sen. Stevens? Hmmmmmmm, questions and questions.

  17. October 20, 2008 at 19:47

    Dan –

    I believe Mr Obama sold a few books.

  18. 20 Kelsie in Houston
    October 20, 2008 at 19:48

    @Will:
    You mean “truthiness” 😉

  19. 21 Dan
    October 20, 2008 at 19:48

    @Will
    A few…a very few!!! The audacity of it all……..

  20. October 20, 2008 at 19:49

    Kels

    That could be the word – if you really, really s-t-r-e-t-c-h-e-d it out a bit. 😉

  21. 23 Tom D Ford
    October 20, 2008 at 19:59

    Will Rhodes October 20, 2008 at 7:26 pm

    “Kels –

    Sorry to remind you but, as you’re American, you are immune to being convicted of corruption let alone being accused of it!”

    It’s about time you all learned that! We Americans are the very paragons of virtue, unparalleled in piety, prolific in profundity, and precise in various other positive uses of “P’ words!

    😉

  22. 24 Jens
    October 20, 2008 at 20:04

    Will,

    she will be all MAVERIKY when she gets back to moose state.

  23. 25 Tom D Ford
    October 20, 2008 at 20:09

    Palin has proven to a “Vindictive Woman” by the Alaskans investigating her role in “troopergate”, she abused her power as governor; now does anyone remember the Clarence Thomas hearings when his woman accuser was asked that by one of the Congressional questioners? Conservative Republicans did not like a “Vindictive Woman” back then, have they changed their alleged minds now?

  24. October 20, 2008 at 20:50

    Hi gang ! :-)… Well, how about this ??! Seriously ??!
    http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/10/19/iraq.ratchet.the.dog/?iref=hpmostpop
    With my love… Yours forever, Lubna in Baghdad…

  25. October 20, 2008 at 20:55

    Tom –

    They have changed so much that McCain has ‘un-officially’ employed the services of the guy that ‘slimed’ the McCain family back in the 2000 primaries, with his lie about McCain having a biracial child through prostitution.

    The child was legitimately adopted by McCain and his wife.

  26. October 20, 2008 at 21:00

    Jens –

    With the use of maverick in the Palin/McCain campaign there is now a new meaning “Maverick: Pronounced (Mav-er-I-Rac) old American/Latin “To stab oneself in the back” “Vote for all incumbent president’s policies, change those policies into your own and denounce those policies of the president” “To take umbrage at younger and more qualified person” “To ignore the obvious and state with complete lack of any knowledge that the economy is is fine fettle”.

  27. 29 Dan
    October 20, 2008 at 21:51

    Why not a discussion about “Why is Islam so weak?”
    No one seems able to answer this simple question.
    The Feds are prosecuting 5 Muslim men who were planning an unprovoked attack on the soldier in Ft. Dix NJ.
    The 5 men maintain that they were defending Islam. Obviously Islam is a very weak religion as Muslims keep saying to justify their terrorism that they must defend it with sadistic acts. If Islam is so weak does it deserve to exist?
    Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism and other religions tolerate criticism and in some cases ridicule. Why is Islam so weak?

  28. October 20, 2008 at 22:11

    Ah my Precious Dan, why is the US so weak ?! Because the justification Mr Bush often offers for the illegal American invasion and occupation of my Iraq is that the US military forces are in my country inorder to defend the US, doesn’t he ?! With my love… Yours forever, Lubna in Baghdad…

  29. October 20, 2008 at 22:15

    Dan,

    The average pay of a college professor is in the mid 80’s. A recent Harvard law grad from the top of the class can expect to make more then $100,000 a year. So such credentials with 20 years of experience can command at least $150,000 p/y easily. Now multiply that times 2 incomes. Because both Barack and Michelle have them. Next, consider what you make per year and what your house was valued at when you bought it. For a couple making minimally $300,000 a year, being “millionaires” is not that much of a stretch.

    Joe Biden has a net worth of about $150,000. His house is financed. And more then one source says he would be in the whole without the equity in his house. He makes $133,000 a year as a senator which he has been for 3 decades.

    My father once told me that, “You are going to have to get rich either by working for, inherit it, or marrying into it. I am taking this with me, you ain’t very pretty, so you had better pay attention in school.”

  30. 32 steve
    October 20, 2008 at 23:11

    http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/10/20/afghanistan.violence/index.html

    Taliban killed aid worker for “preaching”.

    Nice to know what constitutes a death sentence.

  31. 33 Dan
    October 20, 2008 at 23:16

    @Dwight from Cleveland October 20, 2008 at 10:15 pm
    Ahhhh Dwight you missed my acerbic humor. The truth is that I could care less about how they got their homes as they probably did what the rest of us did.
    I do not though for a minute believe that Biden is as “pedestrian” as he states.
    Now to let the big secret out….I supported Biden for President and will never understand why he could not get any traction in the media.
    My concern is that after Nov. 4th Obama will pigeon hole Biden and lose his most valuable resource and YES Biden is absolutely ready to be President if Obama dies.
    Palin is absolutely ready to go on SNL if McCain dies

  32. 34 Dan
    October 20, 2008 at 23:26

    Lubna
    Maybe it went unnoticed but America is NOT a religion, Islam is.
    The world looks to America for leadership (sadly there has been none for the past 7 years). People when they hurt look to regain their strength through their religion but Islam keeps saying it is weak and needs defending. How can one gain strength from weakness? The larger question you ignored is “Why is Islam so weak?”
    The roots of Islam are Judaism and Christianity. Islam has taken much from each but preaches against each. Is that like denying your Mother & Father?
    In America the various religions, including Islam, respect one another. What is it that we do right but they cannot figure out in the Middle East or even in Iraq?
    Lubna, these are tough questions I admit that but unless and until one starts addressing them Islam will continue to descend into the depths and Muslims will be reviled.

  33. 35 Roberto
    October 20, 2008 at 23:48

    RE “” Ronald “Amiable Dunce” Reagan sold out for a million dollar ranch given to him after he left office, by the people who benefited from his screwing the American People. He deregulated the Savings & Loans, which cost Americans some 700 billion dollars ””
    ————————————————————————————————-

    —— My gorsch, have you ever held yourself to 1/100th of the standard you hold Reagan too?

    You’ve obviously confused the recent 700 billion wall street bailout caused when your hero, Billy Slick signed the Mortgage Credit Default bill back in 99 with the 120 billion dollar tax payer cost of the S/L crisis of the late 80s.

    I never voted for Reagan but do admire how he stabilized the country such that your hero had nothing better to do than diddle white house interns when he wasn’t accelerating global warming and global conflicts by signing NAFTA/global trade agreements that spiked the use and cost of energy.

    Why, Tommy, your vote, your guy responsible for creating the Guinness book of record for biggest me$$ ever. That’s why Slick’s filed hundred$ of million$ in tax returns since leaving office. Your hero makes Reagan look like a pauper, so you should be proud.

  34. 36 Jessica in NYC
    October 20, 2008 at 23:54

    Hey all–

    Guess who won Marketer of the Year 2008 from Ad Age? Team Obama snagged the spiffy award given by the CMOs of all the U.S.’s top marketers at the Asso of National Advertisers. Apple came in 2nd and Zappos came in 3rd.

    Is it when a brand became a movement or a movement becomes a brand? Personally, I think it’s the latter, but I guess advertisers have to make themselves indispensable.

  35. October 20, 2008 at 23:54

    Dan,

    I kind of noted the humor, but it is a statement made often by people of a more serious note. lol, Sorry I just used you as a platform to advance my true agenda. I am trying to get Obama and Biden Elected so that I can see more of McCain and palin on their sure to follow comedy tour.

  36. 38 Dan
    October 21, 2008 at 00:06

    Dwight
    I understand. No worries.
    As you might have guessed I am a bit older than you but I look upon Obama as I did with Jack Kennedy.
    “Let the word go out that the torch has been passed to the next generation of Americans…..” Obama is the next generation of Americans to take power.
    I try to avoid labels like liberal/conservative/neo-con etc etc and look at the policies of the individual.
    The fact that he is Black is also not relevant to me at all.
    My only concern about Obama is “Is Obama strong enough to stand up to his Party and others peoples agendas?”

    and while I have concerns in the end America will survive…of that I am certain.

  37. 39 Roberto
    October 21, 2008 at 00:31

    RE Obama:

    Reported he raised 150 million last month alone. Guess he’s around the 3/4 billion mark by now. Amazing and unprecedented. Would love to see how many foreign donors he has, though I would suspect they roll the money into American hands for donations.

    Oh, the divine irony of the dems doing what they always complained about the reps, buying the election. Niccolò di Bernardo dei Machiavelli must be buying all the rounds down at the local universal watering hole ensconced deep in the heavens.

  38. 40 Kelsie in Houston
    October 21, 2008 at 00:45

    @Zimbabwe:
    The power-sharing deal appears to be headed for total collapse–
    http://www.voanews.com/english/Africa/Zimbabwe/2008-10-20-voa43.cfm

  39. 41 Luz Ma from Mexico
    October 21, 2008 at 00:54

    Hi guys!
    I am very busy at work, but I have to take some time off… this is my treat for the day 😉

    @Kelsie

    I wonder why this is–are we inured to the sins of our politicians, or “justify” political discrepancies by retreating into the assumption that, while corrupt to an extent, American politics are perhaps less so than elsewhere?

    For sure it is less than in my country… and something will happen to that corrupt politician, at least his public image will be damaged.

    I truly believe that most politicians are corrupt. It is so much temptation. Also, their often narcisitic personalities gives them all kind of justification to their actions.

    Do you think is something that we have to learn to live with it? What is the way to effectively combat corruption? Any thoughts on this???

  40. October 21, 2008 at 01:05

    Dan~

    I appreciate your questions about Islam.

    Religious fanatics hijack a bus killing 27 people, one a child. What god supports this? What possible motive, other than to create terror and chaos in the hearts of the population do these thugs have?

    I would also like to know how these murderers can live with themselves? Blood soaked, and with the screams and prayers of their innocent victims still ringing in their ears, do they go laughing to dinner? That night do the killers of the meek pray to Allah?

  41. 43 Tom D Ford
    October 21, 2008 at 01:24

    @ Roberto October 20, 2008 at 11:48 pm

    Gosh, you used the diminutive on me, I am just so belittled and chastised!

    Snerk.

    Oh, and about Reagan, your pants are on fire!

  42. 44 Dan
    October 21, 2008 at 01:41

    @portlandmike October 21, 2008 at 1:05 am
    This has always been a disturbing question.
    After Friday night prayers it has been reported that Muslims come out of the Mosques and riot. I am not familiar with that behavior from any other religion.
    Why do they scream Allah Akbar before killing innocents?
    There are so many other examples but what is most appalling is the Muslims (many on WHYS) unwillingness to discuss this or even acknowledge that they have a problem. Instead they deflect the question almost as if they have been instructed to do so.
    It is almost as if they haven’t figured out that we are not still in the 7th Century and cannot understand that in the 21st Century global information is almost instantaneous.
    I submit that if they keep slaughtering innocents including women & children then they will turn Allah into Satan and at the Hajj must throw stones at themselves rather than the monolith they use as a representation of Satan.

  43. October 21, 2008 at 02:55

    Dan, @ Obama

    I am basking in the sun of the last few days where I like him. In a few months I am sure I will be asking, “what the heck is he thinking!!” I have been “in love” before (the last time was twice in 2000. First with this guy “John McCain”. I wonder what happened to that guy. Is he still in politics? Then with Bush.) and know too well that the heartbreak is probably on the horizon.

    But for now there is still this, “what if”. What if we got a president who actually considered the full impact of bills before he signed them. What if we had a president who accepted the intelligence reports and reacted to them instead of creating reaction and accepting only the intelligence that supports it. What if we had a president with the nads to say, “this is goanna hurt, My own party might turn against me, I might not get re-elected if I implement it, but every logical exercise says we the plan will work.” I do believe a Harvard law grad with a weird name that started in the lower income bracket has a pretty good chance of being that guy.

  44. 46 Count Iblis
    October 21, 2008 at 03:30

    Neocon hawk Ken Adelman to vote of Obama

    Said Adleman, to Packer: “Why so, since my views align a lot more with McCain’s than with Obama’s? And since I truly dread the notion of a Democratic president, Democratic House, and hugely Democratic Senate?

    “Primarily for two reasons, those of temperament and of judgment.

    “When the economic crisis broke, I found John McCain bouncing all over the place. In those first few crisis days, he was impetuous, inconsistent, and imprudent; ending up just plain weird. Having worked with Ronald Reagan for seven years, and been with him in his critical three summits with Gorbachev, I’ve concluded that that’s no way a president can act under pressure.

    “Second is judgment. The most important decision John McCain made in his long campaign was deciding on a running mate.

    “That decision showed appalling lack of judgment. Not only is Sarah Palin not close to being acceptable in high office—I would not have hired her for even a mid-level post in the arms-control agency. But that selection contradicted McCain’s main two, and best two, themes for his campaign—Country First, and experience counts. Neither can he credibly claim, post-Palin pick.”

  45. 49 Pangolin-California
    October 21, 2008 at 04:21

    McCain greeted by 15 supporters in Columbia Missouri

    A crowd of about 15 people assembled outside the airport’s fence to see him descend from the plane.

    Now that’s just sad. I’ve stood in longer lines for a slice of pizza. The election in the US is all over but the crying. John McCain is looking so pathetic that he is even getting dumped on by his V.P. pick.

    Obama had 100,000 people in St. Louis Missouri and over 75,000 in Kansas City. Still, McCain shouldn’t feel too bad; all the 29,761 students, 4,149 faculty and 12,165 staff at the local University of Missouri were probably busy just then.

  46. 51 Tom D Ford
    October 21, 2008 at 07:35

    @ Pangolin-California October 21, 2008 at 4:21 am

    “McCain greeted by 15 supporters in Columbia Missouri’

    That is just wrong! How the hell can a hooker or call-girl make her living if the Conservative Republicans just don’t show up?

    Even whores have rights and needs, for God’s sakes!

    Just say no to sexual abstinence!

  47. 52 Pangolin-California
    October 21, 2008 at 08:37

    Think of all those college girls at U. Miss. that were hoping for a tuition boost from gullible GOP camp followers; and they’d been practicing their Sarah Palin winks all week too. Obama rallies are hopeless for drumming up business; liberals don’t really enjoy a spanking enough to pay for it.

  48. October 21, 2008 at 09:18

    Unprecedented Tragedy of Bush in Mideast
    TEHRAN – US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice says the Middle East is a better place for the policies of President George W Bush, but the abysmal legacy of US Republicans in Iraq, Afghanistan and Iran is unprecedented in modern history. A quagmire of over-lapping problems, threatening peace and stability, left to future US Administrations and EU to sort out.
    A Texan who sets out to consolidate ties with Mexico, let loose on the world stage to create havoc, destruction and fear! Is the US electorate responsible? Will future US Administrations proceed on the same lines, insensible to the issues, threatening the lives of millions, sinking more millions into poverty and destitution? Will there be safeguards in the future against the failures of a few misinformed and misguided men and women to destroy the world?

  49. 54 Bob in Queensland
    October 21, 2008 at 11:11

    Hi Kate,

    While Christian relief workers should be applauded for the work they do, their charity should not be in any way interlinked with an attempt to convert the people they’re working with.

    To the best of my knowledge, in the Bible the good Samaritan doesn’t place any conditions on the help he gives the unfortunate traveller.

  50. 55 Dan
    October 21, 2008 at 11:32

    @Akbar Javadi October 21, 2008 at 9:18 am
    I wish that you could see clearer and better understand American politics.
    I am also appalled at the amnesia that seems pervasive of the political, economic and social conditions in Iraq.
    The view from the West is that we believe that Arabs want a strongman to follow and are incapable of building a government for themselves. That appears to also be what you are saying.
    Saddam Hussein was a terrible evil man with two very sadistic sons. There is no argument about that.
    The judgment of Whether we should have gone into Iraq or not we will leave to history rather than opinions.
    The fact is that America is in Iraq but Iraqi Muslims cannot stop slaughtering one another long enough to understand that they can have a different future.
    I also take issue with your view of how the world sees America. How often do you travel in the world? No one risks their lives to get into your country for its freedom and opportunities.
    No doubt that mistakes were made but no nation is perfect even yours and if that is what you are looking for it does not exist and never will.
    Rather than wallow in hatred and hurl epithets the goal should be to get through this to “the other side” so that Iraq become a stable country. Isn’t that a better strategy?

  51. 56 Zainab from Iraq
    October 21, 2008 at 12:11

    @Dan
    “Why is Islam so weak?”

    Excuse me but why do you feel that Islam is weak!!! Oh, my God.. Islam is weak..!! does it really so ?!! Of course NOT. Islam is as strong as ever, if it is weak as you’re saying, how can it be still existing till now? (And it will continue foreverrr.. believe me)
    we Muslims are getting our strength from Islam, as you see when we are in critical moments we just turn to our book al-Qura’an to read some of its chapters, so that we feel comfort, or we just pray to Allah, or visit our beloved Imams… or etc. in other words .. we just return to our point of strength..I do not go despair and commit suicide if I lost someone, or some money or if anything has happened to me… Islam makes me strong to face life.. Let me ask you: If Islam is weak, then why do you fear it??

  52. 57 roebert
    October 21, 2008 at 12:14

    Re: Christian aid. While there can be no justifying the murder of aid workers as retaliation for proselytizing, aid should not be linked to conversion drives. I would go a step further and say that aid workers, be they ever so Christian or Buddhist or whatever, should not even label their work with any religious tags. It’s unwise, and it brings unnecessary controversy into the field of simple aid endeavours. Good work is good work: no need to advertise the giver’s religion. BUT, murder to defend one’s religion from proselytizers is the height of insanity and wickedness.

  53. October 21, 2008 at 12:20

    Are personal attacks on politicians okay?

    Sure they’re ok! The right (I know, pardon my jab at the right 😉 )will cry and moan about the public getting tired of hearing petty personal attacks with the defense, “Well its proof! The public must know!” and at the same time cry about bias when said personal attacks are made against their candidate and picked up by media outlets.

    If you can’t play the game, leave. And if you can play the game, realize that theres going to be a winner and theres going to be a loser. It just so happens that McCain’s camp and the poorly chosen personal attacks on Obama are backfiring on them. Citizens are tired of hearing it, so what now?

    Thanks for the personal attacks Mc-Palin, your losing support looking like sore-losing-schoolyard bullies.

  54. October 21, 2008 at 12:24

    If Islam is weak, then why do you fear it??

    On snap!
    Good point…

  55. 60 steve
    October 21, 2008 at 12:25

    There’s a difference between weakness and insecurity. Muslims are incredibly insecure about their beliefs, hence why they overreact so much to any percieved offense. If God was truly all powerful, then he cannot be offended by anything people say.

  56. 61 Dan
    October 21, 2008 at 14:03

    @Zainab from Iraq October 21, 2008 at 12:11 pm
    Of course Islam is weak as Muslims continuously say “We have to defend Islam”. That makes the logical and perfect case that Islam is weak.
    The inherent weakness was demonstrated to the world when Muslims, frightened by cartoons, protested worldwide.
    How about death threats and actual murders to anyone that criticizes Islam? Of course it is weak. The question is “WHY?…and does that weakness make a Muslim insecure and does that insecurity cause the terrorism that we have all seen?”
    As a footnote no one fears Islam what we fear is a Muslim who knows that Islam is so weak that they feel they must defend it by murdering innocents.

  57. 62 Dinka Alpayo Aliap, kampala
    October 21, 2008 at 14:26

    No . Its ludicrous to takes Aides working opportunities as away of changing religions because aids duties is a bout glamourising siuation but not converting people. If it continue as that it will affects a number of aides workers negatively , there4 we should seperate missionary from UN works. As a christians i also regret the unprecidented departure of our sister, MAY HER SOUL REST IN ETERNAL PEACE.

  58. October 21, 2008 at 14:30

    So Disappointed!
    TEHRAN – Hi Dan. Perhaps our expectations were too high. Remember the 1970’s, and the open door policy of Iran. It’s always the same story, you say: “We’re one of a kind and we’ll prove it.” Here we are nearly fourty years after, still no satisfaction.
    Now and then, we see some of our old age pensioners coming back for a couple of months from America and going back.
    You are a wonderful nation but we have values of our own. We should ultimately fall back on the traditional, partisan and ethnic origins to which we belong. The war years in Afghanistan and Iraq have left a pungent smell. If we can help Iraqis along the way, all well and good. Afghan refugees are everywhere. Scores of them arrive every day looking for work. It doesn’t hurt to give them a helping hand.
    Ultimately, we leave the world very much worse for wear and tear, but that’s just the way it is!

  59. 64 Jennifer
    October 21, 2008 at 14:34

    Re: McCain greeted by 15 supporters in Columbia Missouri

    I found this to be an interesting story. I was in MO and KS yesterday on business. There were many more McCain/Palin signs than Obama signs? The McCain/Palin signs were huge. I also heard one radio ad for McCain. I expected more advertising from Obama but maybe he is already so sure he has won over both states? HMM!!!

    Re: Personal attacks on Politicians

    I think they should be fair game if they relate to the politician’s character. I do not see how calling into question Obama’s citizenship status, connections, and outright lies are considered personal attacks. These relate directly to the course of him being President. There is a difference between those type of concerns and some of the things I have saw from Obama’s campaign and supporters. As McCain said during the last debate when there have been instances where he felt that a line had been crossed; did call people out. Obama calls NOONE out. The end result is people on the left being pretty disgusting with attacks that have no relevance at all to the election.

  60. 65 Monica in DC
    October 21, 2008 at 14:43

    I don’t think the aid worker should have been killed over this, but maybe just deported. However, I have a big problem with people who try to convert others, especially in a country not their own. If you are going to go somewhere to help people, just help them. To me, using “aid” as a cover to preach and convert.

  61. 66 Dinka, kampala
    October 21, 2008 at 14:54

    On Zainab. I think you are judging the covered of the book or (prochalistic acts), why i said so, 90 % of the violence committed in your country or midleast before /after Americans coming to Iraq were/are committed by muslims, muslims killing other muslims, SHUNIS VS SHIITE or killing of innocent childrens/ women/elderly people is that a strong you talks about or which strong is that? Zainab .So your religions can not gives you strength or make u very strong than others as u are suspecting to be having.Now you walk in fear in all days and nights because of being killed or kidnapp is it a strength?. Please!! stay out of religions and focus on development, this world is a world of multi-religion with their multi-strengths.

  62. 67 Jennifer
    October 21, 2008 at 15:00

    @ Obama-Marketer of the Year

    If we take that article to heart what that implies is that now the presidency can now be bought? It’s about hype and how someone presents themself rather than hard facts about who they are? We may learn a less the hard way on this one. If Obama is elected and fails miserably we will see that that is not the appropriate way to choose a President.

    Brings up alot of other questions like is the person with the most money is the most capable? Should the presidential campaign be a popularity contest through and through or should there be some experience and substance to back up popularity? Should celebrities be allowed to use their status to publicly endorse a candidate? Oprah did that with Obama; however, she has refused to have Sarah Palin on her show until after the election. How is that providing unbiased information to the public? When you are Oprah don’t you have an obligation to provide access to all information even if you don’t support or agree with it? Since she does have that ability now, are people really receiving unbiased facts about candidates?

  63. 68 Kelsie in Houston
    October 21, 2008 at 15:09

    …now the presidency can now be bought? It’s about hype and how someone presents themself rather than hard facts about who they are?

    Now? Mr Bush established a new fundraising record in 2004 vs. John Kerry that Mr Obama recently broke–I suppose that is on the level where your particular ideology is concerned, but there is nothing “new” or “just now” about money’s influence in elections. That’s not an “innovation” for Mr Obama–anyone familiar with the last 20-30 years of American politics can attest to that.

  64. October 21, 2008 at 15:17

    Here we go again at the subject of Christianity and proselytism.
    I don’t know why whenever this issue of spreading one form of religion comes up, it’s always a call for concern.
    People, as far as I know have never been forced to convert to Christianity so I see no reason why there should be that phobia whenever Christian organizations come into Muslim countries with the dual purpose of delivering humanitarian assistance and spreading the word of God.
    As far as I know, not all Arabs are Muslims so that leaves room for the others to be converted to any faith of their choice.

  65. October 21, 2008 at 15:28

    Brings up alot of other questions like is the person with the most money is the most capable?
    Where did he get that money from? Donations, which are made by who? Supporters. Should he be scrutinized because voters are willing to back him financially, moreso than Mc-Palin?

    Should the presidential campaign be a popularity contest through and through or should there be some experience and substance to back up popularity?
    The voters determine that, backers of Obama find just as much substance in him than backers of McCain. It is both a popularity contest, but it is tied closely with substance as that is a large factor in support / popularity.

    Should celebrities be allowed to use their status to publicly endorse a candidate? Oprah did that with Obama; however, she has refused to have Sarah Palin on her show until after the election.
    Shes an entertainer. She has no obligation to show impartiality. Celebrities are just as capable of supporting Mc-Palin.

  66. October 21, 2008 at 15:41

    And Jennifer,
    Not sure on the answer to this one, but Palin is a VP; Has Oprah had Biden on her show?

  67. 72 Jennifer
    October 21, 2008 at 17:11

    @ Brett

    Yes, Sarah Palin is the VP candidate. She has not had Biden on her show either. He’s been almost non-existent in this campaign. The most I’ve heard about him is the stand up Chuck thing so maybe that’s best for the Obama campaign.

    Sure, we can say that Oprah has no obligation but do you think that only democrats have supported her throughout the years? No. She has no place in any political arena but if she wants to step into it, considering her name and popularity, she needs to be fair and give both a day on her show. I personally believe that she did not have Sarah Palin on her show because she was afraid viewers would connect with her. That’s an abuse of her power and it’s very offensive to those who have supported her in the past who want her to be unbiased.

  68. October 21, 2008 at 17:18

    @ Jennifer:
    She has no place in any political arena but if she wants to step into it, considering her name and popularity, she needs to be fair and give both a day on her show.

    Well then to be fair she has to have every candidate and VP candidate on her show. Im sick of a 2 party system with only 2 choices, so lets give some of the underdogs time on her show too, you know, while we’re being fair.

    Until Biden gets a spot on her show, Palin should just shut up and press to get McCain on there.

    Your absolutely right that she has a portion of her base which is republican and republicans in the past may have supported her, but if she doesn’t want to support McCain or Palin, why should she feel obligated to be paraded around by a republican leash simply because those are the candidates the party chose… even if she doesn’t like them… That doesn’t make much sense to me?

  69. 74 Sher Singh
    October 21, 2008 at 17:36

    No! You can not convert people. And if you do, then you shouldn’t complain if you get a hostile reaction as you have done in Afghanistan and in India. These cultures are thousands of years old and are quite happy. But converting people you’re destroying cultures and societies. For God’s sake when are you people going to learn as to how many cultures, religions you have destroyed in an effort to spread the so called the “Word of God”! The list is endless and you’re continuing. People will do anything for food, shelter and education. You are converting them when they’re in a vulnerable state, is this what Christianity teaches? If Christianity is a such a great and strong religion, why are you failing to convert the educated and the well off? If you want to breed violence and create more individuals like Bin Laden, then go ahead, but then don’t complain when you see the consequences of your actions from the other side!!

  70. 75 Jens
    October 21, 2008 at 17:52

    jennifer,

    hand on heart, obama can not do worse that what the current muppets have done, even if he tried his hardest

  71. 76 Tom D Ford
    October 21, 2008 at 17:57

    I watched a recording of SNL with Palin and I noticed at the end that she was wearing Dominatrix boots with very high stiletto heels, now those aren’t normal cold weather gear in an icy snowy place like Alaska, those are pretty specific to a particular kind of sexual fetish. Apparently the Palins enjoy a little kinkiness in their sex life. And it sure shows who wears the boots in that apparently un-Civil Union AKA marriage.

    So it continues to be interesting to see how she presents herself.

  72. 77 Roberto
    October 21, 2008 at 18:42

    RE ” Oh, and about Reagan, your pants are on fire! “”
    ——————————————————————————————————–

    ** My dearest tomkins, I’m completely fireproof, having been soaked liberally by typical rep/dem koolaide nonsense on this blog.

  73. 78 Sher Singh
    October 21, 2008 at 18:47

    If Islam is weak, then why do you fear it??

    Who fears it? People fear the violence it propagates.
    Look at Israel, they give the islamic nations the same
    treatment as they receive. I don’t think they’re afraid. If
    one responds in the same manner, there’s nothing to fear.
    It’s people who do nothing, that are passive, they are the one’s
    that fear it.

  74. 79 Pangolin-California
    October 21, 2008 at 19:13

    Sher Singh~ I find it interesting that when I went on a college class tour of the local Sikh temple (world religions) we were fed a very nice lunch along with what were obviously several locals. I was told that all Sikh temples have kitchens that feed the poor. Most notably while the elderly gentleman was quite willing to talk to us I couldn’t wheedle even so much as a pamphlet from him. This earned my lasting respect.

    A religion that feeds the poor without demand and required true interest on the part of those that might convert. A welcome change.

  75. 80 Sher Singh
    October 21, 2008 at 19:25

    Yes, thank you for that. I’m actually a Hindu. Sikhism is an offshoot of Hinduism and we have many similarities. But you’re correct all Sikh temples, the Gurudwaras, have a kitchen or what is called a Langar. After prayers, anyone, and that means literally ANYONE off the street can walk in and enjoy the blessed food. No one is going to ask you who you are, what you are doing there, if you’re a Sikh or not. ALL are welcome. I have friend who was unemployed in the UK for a few months, he didn’t have a single penny to buy food, and he used to go and eat there. He was very thankful and donated his first paycheck to the Gurudwara after he got a job.

  76. 81 Jennifer
    October 21, 2008 at 19:39

    @ Brett

    What makes little sense to me is that she uses her name “Oprah” to endorse Obama. It’s like her stamp of approval….saying I think he’s best. It is influencing people. However, she is not showing people both options and letting them choose which is the best for themselves. I think it’s because women would relate to Sarah Palin as well. I don’t think there is anything restricting about showing both sides of a coin-republicans and democrats-for people to make their choice. It’s called being informed. I would think if Oprah was confident in Obama she would welcome all of the candidates (Pres. and VP) because she knows herself that Obama is best. She wants to do nothing that will cost him votes. As it is, women are boycotting her because they watch Oprah because they believe her to be informed and a good resource for information. How can that be so when we just see one side of something?

    @Jens

    I think we should hold up on making that statement, at least for right now. 🙂 Obama hasn’t won but if it does; we will eat those words.

    Re: Sarah Palin’s dress on SNL

    There was nothing inappropriate about Sarah Palin’s dress on SNL. There are some people out there who would make those rude comments regardless of what she wore. Their curiosity about this woman’s sex life is creepy to say the least. You wish.

  77. 82 Tom D Ford
    October 21, 2008 at 20:19

    @ Jennifer October 21, 2008 at 7:39 pm

    “Re: Sarah Palin’s dress on SNL

    There was nothing inappropriate about Sarah Palin’s dress on SNL. There are some people out there who would make those rude comments regardless of what she wore. Their curiosity about this woman’s sex life is creepy to say the least. You wish.”

    You are not qualified to comment about things of which you know nothing. You have no experience and thus no credibility in such things.

    Oh. And I don’t “wish”.

    I find Palin, her politics, and her perverse version of the Christian Religion repugnant.

    Like I first posted about her when she came out, I didn’t expect the face of evil to be pretty.

  78. 83 Jens
    October 21, 2008 at 20:27

    jennifer,

    why? lately looked at the economy, the deficit, the sensless war, the uninsured, the unemployed, the homless….etc. the entire system is broke and was broken by the current administartion. heck even mccain has a chance do better than what we have right now, since it is virtually impossible to do worse.

  79. 84 Jennifer
    October 21, 2008 at 21:05

    @Jens

    I recommend you look at the cost of all Obama wants to do. That lovely picture you painted in your post will get much worse if we try to start shelling out money we don’t have as he wants to do. We should be sucking it up not going crazy like a kid in a candy store! We can still offer assistance programs but spending has to be cut down right now to get over these problems. The thought of him trying to deal with all of that considering his lack of experience makes me feel sorry for him a little….

    Re: Sarah Palin on SNL

    For someone to come up with such outrageous claims; something must be going on in the deep dark crevices of their brain. If there was a true problem with Sarah Palin’s dress, it would be all over the place-not just coming from one lone source who seems to be fixated on this subject with regards to Sarah Palin.

    No matter what qualifications we are talking about mine are not any of your business.

  80. 85 Jennifer
    October 21, 2008 at 21:31

    Dear moderator,

    Please help my last post. It’s stuck……thank you! 🙂

  81. 86 Jennifer
    October 21, 2008 at 21:32

    Dear Moderator,

    Please contact me regarding my last post. It is now gone.

    Thank you.

  82. 87 Jack Hughes
    October 21, 2008 at 22:32

    Tom D Ford writes:

    …Apparently the Palins enjoy a little kinkiness in their sex life…

    What a creepy thing to write – or even to think.

    Psychiatrists have a word for people who fantasise about the sex lives of the famous.

  83. 88 Jacklynd
    October 22, 2008 at 00:51

    It shows our government’s insensitivity to the situation in Afghanistan. Aid workers should not be preaching, especially the born again whack jobs. They irritate me. I can only imagine how the Afghanis view them.

    Ok. Ok. No, I don’t think they deserve to die but remember Solomon Rushdie ended up with a blanket death warrant placed on his head for publishing something offensive. A cartoonist was almost lynched for depicting a cartoon picture of Mohammed.

    Our government should know better and shame on them.

  84. 89 DENNIS@OCC
    October 22, 2008 at 02:14

    Re: Are personal attacks on politicians okay?
    i think that in a perfect world, personal attacks are not okay! but
    it is going to be around for a time….

    Re: Does this mean people believe in brands over politics?
    i think so….

    Dennis

  85. 90 Tom D Ford
    October 22, 2008 at 07:35

    @ Jennifer October 21, 2008 at 9:05 pm

    “Re: Sarah Palin on SNL

    For someone to come up with such outrageous claims; something must be going on in the deep dark crevices of their brain. If there was a true problem with Sarah Palin’s dress, it would be all over the place-not just coming from one lone source who seems to be fixated on this subject with regards to Sarah Palin.

    No matter what qualifications we are talking about mine are not any of your business.”

    LOL.

    You lack understanding of “Fashion”.

    I understand that someone who is sexually without experience because of religious fear would make the response that you have made; but attacking me instead of acknowledging your own problem is what psychologists call “projecting”!

    Human beings pleasure themselves and each other in many and various ways that I, and especially you, do not understand, and I suggest that you ought to stop judging people about things you do not understand.

    As to complaining about “your qualifications” please stop making your “qualifications” public!

    You stated that you are not sexually active, nobody asked you to do that!

    Hmm If I recall correctly, someone once said that chastity is its own punishment.

    Er, enjoy.

    Hmm, I bet you’d like wearing “Dominatrix Boots”.

    Ha ha ha !

  86. 91 Tom D Ford
    October 22, 2008 at 07:44

    Jack Hughes October 21, 2008 at 10:32 pm

    “Tom D Ford writes:

    …Apparently the Palins enjoy a little kinkiness in their sex life…

    What a creepy thing to write – or even to think.

    Psychiatrists have a word for people who fantasise about the sex lives of the famous.

    Ha ha ha!

    And a bunch of words for people who present themselves “sexually” in public.

    I’d prefer that she and the Republican Party back off from selling Palin as a sex object!

  87. 92 Jennifer
    October 22, 2008 at 15:02

    Re: Sarah Palin on SNL

    Being “fashionable” does not mean someone is presenting themselves sexually. There is nothing wrong with the way Sarah Palin dresses. Believe me, if there were, we would have more than one person commenting about it on here.

    You have asked me about what college I attended in the past. Whether that is what you meant or not, I don’t care. Anything I have posted here, including when there was a discussion about abstinence, I added because I am in no way ashamed of who I am and it was relevant to that conversation. I make the choices that are right for me; definitely not out of “religious fear”. You are the one who brought it up in this conversation, which was tasteless and does not even coincide with this conversation.

    As far as I am concerned, Jack Hughes is right; it was a creepy thing to think/write. I would prefer if people would stop seeing Sarah Palin/women as sex objects and nothing more.

  88. October 22, 2008 at 15:06

    I would prefer if people would stop seeing Sarah Palin/women as sex objects

    Something tells me there is a reason that the ‘publicans wouldn’t have chosen someone who looked like madeline albright and didn’t for a reason (among many others)…
    The ‘pub party no doubt saw it as a selling point that she is [to some, especially men] considered sexually attractive.

    Im begining to think that her appearance had more to do with her chosing than her experience (or lacktherof).

  89. 94 Jennifer
    October 22, 2008 at 17:13

    Re: Sarah Palin being chosen as VP

    “Something tells me there is a reason that the ‘publicans wouldn’t have chosen someone who looked like madeline albright and didn’t for a reason (among many others)…
    The ‘pub party no doubt saw it as a selling point that she is [to some, especially men] considered sexually attractive.”

    Whether people like it or not; Sarah Palin is on the ticket. They have to decide whether they want her as their VP or not and vote accordingly. Barack Obama had the chance to choose Hillary Clinton as his VP pick but he didn’t. McCain used the disappointment that many HC voters had with regards to not doing that to his advantage. It was a good political move. He wasn’t the talk of the town for his speech the next day, was he? For people willing to vote outside of their party; it gave them greater cause to look again at McCain’s side again.

    The media has played a huge role in the way that people see Sarah Palin. She should not be judged by her appearance. However, because she is what some would consider attractive it seems like that is what people choose to focus on. That’s their choice.

  90. October 22, 2008 at 19:01

    She should not be judged by her appearance.

    Agreed, but then why did her party fund 150,000 for her and her families wardrobe? They are playing into and along with this…

    Whether people like it or not; Sarah Palin is on the ticket. They have to decide whether they want her as their VP or not and vote accordingly. Barack Obama had the chance to choose Hillary Clinton as his VP pick but he didn’t. McCain used the disappointment that many HC voters had with regards to not doing that to his advantage. It was a good political move. He wasn’t the talk of the town for his speech the next day, was he? For people willing to vote outside of their party; it gave them greater cause to look again at McCain’s side again.

    Im not debating the outcome of her on the ticket, I’m debating the motives. Your upset that people are focusing on her appearance. That, in my opinion and the opinion of many was one of the reasons she was chosen!
    McCain looks old and ready to kick the bucket, what better than to have someone come in who is young, fresh… oh! What better than a young, fresh, woman?!
    Palin was chosen for her gender, her age, her appearance, her family, and her conservative affiliations, nothing more.
    Her party put her in the position to be paraded around and shown off, that is what she is getting, they along with those in her party should be happy about that, it’s working for her. Her looks seem to be one of the few beneficial things she brings to the McCain campaign. They made a good choice to gain votes… No need to deny some of the obvious reasons she was chosen, what more needs to be said?

  91. 96 Jennifer
    October 22, 2008 at 19:37

    Re: Sarah Palin being chose as VP

    I am not upset that people are focusing on her appearance. If they want to focus on her appearance; fine. Say she’s beautiful or say she’s ugly……but don’t say that because she is fashionable she’s trying to seduce everyone and go on to make disgusting presumptions about someone’s sex life. As for the money being spent on her clothes, would gunnysacks in every color of the rainbow been more appropriate? Women face much more scrutiny in the public eye than men do. It was the campaigns money. I don’t care how they spend it! Move on to important issues!

    Since you left out experience and intelligence I guess you rank her about as high as I rank Obama! 😀 Congratulations-we agree to disagree on this! I guess you prefer this candidate? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ymy0Woaz81U haha Sorry, but no thank you.

  92. October 22, 2008 at 20:13

    @ Jennifer,

    Lol, Naïveté’, how cute. Next you will say the Budweiser doesn’t used sex to sell beer. The bikini clad model laying on front of the corvette is a knowledgeable and skilled sales representative. Let me tell you something. I walked into work ranting and spouting on about McCain’s dangerous selection of Sarah Palin to my conservative cop worker who waited patiently until if fizzled down. He looked at me and smiled like the cat the just ate the mouse and said, “yeah, but you are just mad cause she is hot.”

    At any rate. 12 more days until she drifts back into the world of obscurity. Anybody who openly says they know their husband abused her office on her behalf should be sent to jail. But I will happy if she just shuts up.

  93. 98 Jennifer
    October 22, 2008 at 20:47

    @ Dwight

    We are talking about a person; not alcohol. Want to be sexist and classify Sarah Palin a pretty bimbo fine but there should be a definite line of respect and decency that should not be crossed. Her clothing is her clothing; if someone finds it attractive that’s their choice. I have never seen Sarah Palin dressed in anything less than something professional. Someone’s sex life has nothing to do with her ability to be VP and for someone to insist that everything has a sexual connotation is just stupid. If you agreed with some of her beliefs on important issues maybe you’d see past her face and realize there is more to her than being “hot” for some people. Yep, 12 more days until someone wins the big prize. We had all better hope it’s not Obama! 😉

  94. 99 steve
    October 22, 2008 at 20:49

    @ Jennifer

    I disagree with some points. I think someone’s sexlife is fair game if they are running for office, and you’d certainly have a right to know if they are a pedophile. that’s part of “sex life”. But also things that are legal, but show poor judgment, I think people have a right to know about. Nobody forced you to run for political office, so if you do, your life is fair game. Got a problem with that, then don’t run.

  95. 100 Jennifer
    October 22, 2008 at 21:39

    @ Steve

    I was referring to people making assumptions about every single thing about Sarah Palin. As if she is one super seducing machine. That’s ridiculous. Obviously, there have been people who have dug up dirt on her so I am sure if she was a pedophile, wouldn’t we know? That’s very different from what I was talking about anyway…..Of course people have a right to know about things like that, but as for other things, I really don’t think they do.

    An example:

    “Apparently the Palins enjoy a little kinkiness in their sex life. And it sure shows who wears the boots in that apparently un-Civil Union AKA marriage.”

    Sorry, but no.

  96. October 23, 2008 at 12:12

    Want to be sexist and classify Sarah Palin a pretty bimbo fine but there should be a definite line of respect and decency that should not be crossed.

    LOL, sexist? Quick to pull that card…
    We’re talking about a person, not a gender. 😉

  97. 102 Jennifer
    October 23, 2008 at 16:51

    @ Brett

    Please! I am not pulling any card! 🙂

    You said “Palin was chosen for her gender, her age, her appearance, her family, and her conservative affiliations, nothing more.”

    I took from that that she’s nothing more than a pretty face in your opinion; or a prop.

    You left out that even though she may be those things; she can be intelligent and experienced. In my opinion; she is. The media has done well in “proving” otherwise.


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