A WHYS dialogue about terrorism: As Kate has already said, today World Have Your Say will come from a West London hotel where The Centre for the Study of Terrorism is holding its annual conference Terrorism: Alternative Global Perspectives. It brings together influential Muslims from across the world to talk about terrorism.
It is poignant timing. Today a draft armed-forces agreement between the US and Baghdad is being considered that could mean all US troops leaving Iraq by 2011.
You can ask our guests for their perspectives on terrorism, the war on terror, extremism and how they want to see it tackled. Do you think the international solution really working or Is it up to Muslims to solve Islamic terrorism?
We’ll be there to get the guests and conference delegates talking to our listeners across the world.
Some of the speakers include:
Robert Crane, the former advisor to President Nixon and now an author of books on US foreign policy.
Alan Hart, a renowned journalist who’s work looks at political/religious issues.
Adnan Siddiqi, is from a website about Gunatanamo Prisoners called Cageprisoners.com
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WHYS blogger Jessica in New York asks if terrorism is ever legitimate in achieving national interest and there’s already been lively debate on this page about Iraq with the return of regular WHYS blogger Lubna in Baghdad ( welcome back).
So should the US stay in Iraq and, as Lubna says, “clean up their mess?” , or should the Iraqis now be responsible for dealing with Iraqi problems as Jens in the US suggests?
Let us know what you think….
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BBC World Have Your Say 
Radical Muslims are responsible for Islamic terrorism, yes. But what is continuously overlooked by those which are anti-muslim is the fact that the West (and yes, yes, I know, aw, everyone is so mean to the west, we blame them for EVERYTHING! How sad); anyhow, the West does more to instigate Islamic terrorism than help the situation.
Occupation, foreign policy, civilian deaths, economic policy, military action, etc. all lend credence and legitimize (at least in the minds of some) radical Islam as a means to stand up to what is perceived as a Bully nation/s.
Yes, we have the “War on Terror” but look throughout history at our [The Wests] hand in Muslim countries with regards to the above issues, and meddling in their affairs and you will see and hopefully be able to understand why, in part, there was a galvanization in the name of radical Islam against The West.
Now this is not taking into account Muslim on Muslim terrorism, or terrorism based on religion or other forms of terrorism not against the ‘evil’ West.
For every action there is a reaction. Islamic terrorism didn’t just spring up out of nowhere, for no reason.
Of course, there are arguments on both sides. The whole Radical Islam wishing to take over the world thing doesn’t help at all…
But honestly, what have we done to help the situation? Besides wage war and kill people? Or wage policy when its in our favor?
But to say its the responsibility of an everyday Muslim to tackle terrorism and hate for others is the same as saying its up to everyday Christians to stop the Falwell-type Christia-bigotry and hate.
It’s a world problem, hence it will require a world working towards a solution.
It has become almost common to associate terrorism with Islam in view of the terrorist attacks launched by Islamists who see them as a form of legitimate jihad. But it’s time for Muslims to promote a peaceful image of Islam by restructuring their religious field and cleaning it from those who have extreme views legitimizing random killing.
To solve Islamic terrorism has to go hand in hand with promoting justice for all Muslims and narrowing the great disparities between the rich and the poor. Despair and hatred are a gate to terrorism.
Also the most fundamental way to eradicate Islamic terrorism is to endow Muslims, especially the young, with an education promoting tolerance and open-mindedness. As long as there are Islamic schools in countries like Pakistan and Saudi Arabia teaching archaic views about Islam and considering anyone who isn’t Muslim as worthy of hell and fighting, terrorism will continue to have a breeding ground in Muslim countries and communities living in non-Muslim countries.
Can a Pedophile or Rapist reform themselves? I think the answer is NO!!
Arab Muslims “slipped a cog’ and radical Islam was born out of the Middle East.
It did not spring from Malaysia or any other Asian Islamic country. They became infected as radical Islam spread like a virus.
I believe that it will take a civilized external group to bring Islam back to its senses and up to modern standards. Perhaps that is why Muslims fear the Jews so much.
Whatever the decision Radical Islam must be dealt with before they honor their God by detonating a nuclear device.
Dan:
Whatever the decision Radical Islam must be dealt with before they honor their God by detonating a nuclear device.
I could not agree more with you on this.
Muslims cannot solve their own problems and differences when they fight with each other and argue endlessly amongst themselves on issues that confront them.
To ask them to solve the terrorist problems is like asking a horse not to drink water.
Religious Police Sentance Woman To Death For Witchcraft –
Who is responsible for solving state sponsored or sanctioned Islamic Terrorism? And acts against their own people?
Islam defininetely needs a reformation which leads to secularization of muslim societies. Problem is, is that it needs to be done from within. Problem for those in the muslim world, and outside, is that many people are going to get killed while waiting for this, and during this. The question is, how many people are you comfortable with getting killed over people’s belief in a fictional deity? 1? 1,000,000?
When people get killed over some fictional book character, you really have to start wondering about the lack of intelligence that our species has. People seem to think that humans are the “smartest” species on earth, yet I don’t see squirrels killing each other over fictional characters. Do you?
Hi!
I think it is a good idea, for Muslims [and anyone interested] should solve the Islamic Terrorism issues…
They need to have a greater say–in there own futures!
Dennis
Great, this should be fuel for the already paranoid and irrational that frequent this blog on a regular basis anyway.
It is the responsibility of the government of a region to protect its people. It is counter productive for a foreign government to send forces into a region to act as some kind of moral authority. “morals are relative”. As an example 9/11 was a logistics flaw. A fluke in the intelligence communications system. However the US answered it with a military solution that resemble, dare i say it, “a hatchet where a scalpel was needed”.
It is also the responsibility of a government that if it lets its citizens conduct business in regions where the government is unstable, they are allowing national security to be compromised. Once these activities leave the borders of the US business and government are no longer separate.
@Dan
I think it’s unfair to compare muslims to rapists or pedophiles. religion, islam included, is a form of brainwashing. Like people can be brainwashed into religion, they can be brainwashed out of it, whereas being a pedophile is a mental condition, something deviant, wrong. problem is that people take religion seriously. Religion is the worst fraud ever perpetrated on humanity, and unfortunately it’s muslims that are the most violent religious group right now. I can only imagine what middle age christians would have been like with 21st century weapons. Fortunately they didn’t have them. But people who take religion seriously, are a threat to everyone. they are a threat to themselves, and to other people. Willing to kill or be killed over their desperate need for some fictional sky friend. People are so stupid.
@steve October 17, 2008 at 2:26 pm
I hate to sound callous but if they die they die.
For 14 Centuries they have lived in ignorance and darkness. That simply cannot be allowed to continue any longer given the destructive technology available and ease of worldwide travel.
They did this to themselves and if their actions lead to a dead end for their belief system then so be it.
There are innumerable belief systems that have flamed out as they were no longer relevant.
For 14 Centuries they have lived in ignorance and darkness. That simply cannot be allowed to continue any longer given the destructive technology available and ease of worldwide travel.
They did this to themselves and if their actions lead to a dead end for their belief system then so be it.
There are innumerable belief systems that have flamed out as they were no longer relevant.
Please tell me your referring to only Radical Islam and not all Muslims….
@Dan:
Whoa–major difference between Islam and such things as rape or pedophilia. Islam is an expression of religious faith that can (and sometimes does) change over time or is even outright abandoned. Its moral gradient rests in the eyes of its beholders, both the faithful and the not. Pedophilia is a psychosexual condition whose moral gradient is wrong. Period. Moreover, it is possibly hardwired into the individual–making it more “insidious” than religious belief.
@ Dan
I’m talking about everyone Dan. Not just muslims. It wont just be muslims killed in a muslim reformation which will basically be a civil war that will involved non muslims as well.
Brett October 17, 2008 at 2:36 pm
C’mon Brett of course it is Radical Islam. They think they will destroy the West but in their hands they have the power to destroy all Islam.
@Kelsie in Houston October 17, 2008 at 2:36 pm
Clever argument but we were not talking the differences between rapists, pedophiles and Muslims.
We are saying that like Rapists and Pedophiles Muslims cannot reform themselves. They need an outside source.
@steve October 17, 2008 at 2:38 pm
I’m talking about everyone Dan. Not just muslims. It wont just be muslims killed in a muslim reformation which will basically be a civil war that will involved non muslims as well.
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Hmmm, truthfully I’d have to think about that more. What makes you say that? Convince me.
The problem with Islamic terrorism is that there are terrorists who live in inaccessible mountainous terrains as in the borders between Pakistan and Afghanistan. The US, despite its ultra-modern military equipments has so far failed to surround them and break their back. From their caves,these terrorists can spread their ideology and recruit potential terrorists thanks to the internet and other forms of communication.
Fighting terrorism isn’t just the job of Muslim countries but that of the international community. In other words , there should be aggressive intelligence cooperation between all the countries concerned.
There are many outstanding issues like the Palestinian cause and the invasion of Iraq that are used as a pretext to wage terrorism. There should be a solution to these. At least, the terrorists will have little ground to manoeuvre and the support they can get will drop to extinction.
@ Dan
Because muslims live all over the world, in Muslim majority nations and nations where muslims are a minority. some will want to secularize, some wont. There will be a fight. Kind of like the sunni vs. shiite infighting that has been going on for over 1000 years now. People need to realize that the fictional sky friend is not a very good reason for hating people and killing people. If you’re going to hate me and want to kill me, at least have it be for a rational reason.
When people have a civil war, especially when they live everywhere, outsiders will get involveld as well. It wont just be muslims getting killed, or doing all of the killing. I’m not sure if it will be like a world war, but it could be close given the history of all of this. Lots of people are going to get killed because some people take their religion too seriously.
It’s so stupid. All of it. I’d rather be killed by someone who was drinking and driving than be killed by someone who is so insane they think killing me would please their fictional friend.
I wouldn’t mind if all religion were eliminated, but honestly, muslims are the most violent religious people on earth right now. Wasn’t always that way, but we live in the present, not the past. I’m sick and tired of people getting killed over some idiotic book character. Just end it.I cannot believe how vast this mass delusion is. I cannot believe how stupid so many people are.
@Dan:
I am aware of what you were discussing; I am contending that the whole comparison is invalid in the first place.
@steve October 17, 2008 at 2:46 pm
I understand your point. I believe that the USA will be relatively immune from that civil war due to how good we are at assimilation.
I wonder how pervasive a civil war will be if Muslim reformation starts in the Middle East.
I cannot believe that there are any rational reasons for war but understand that from time to time they must be fought.
@Kelsie in Houston October 17, 2008 at 2:49 pm
I guess we agree to disagree.
@Dan:
Happy and glad to.
@ Dan
Also, don’t forget there are nations that are primarily pretty much Sunni or shiite. They tend to not like each other, and one of the major fears of Iran getting nuclear weapons is that it will make sunni nations want nuclear weapons as well. Lots of people could die, especially if you have religious nutjobs running the nations.
Yes, the US does to a much better job of integrating people than european nations do, but we aren’t perfect, and apparently, allegedly, there as an “honor killing” in texas. If someone is willing to kill thier daughters because they date non muslims, they will also kill over their religion. It will happen here as well.
There are rational reasons for war, but they tend to be in selfishness. You’ve got a resource that I want and need. That’s rational, but completely selfish. Irrational wars were wars fought over religion, or even just having alliances. WW1 was an irrational war. Do you think your average Briton really cared about the Archduke Franz ferdinand or Serbians wanting indepedence from Austria-Hungary?
@steve October 17, 2008 at 3:02 pm
I think Muslim nations outside of the Middle East might just sit out any “war”. I think they are fed up with Radical Islam but have no idea what to do.
Iran might be different wherein they will throw off the yoke of ignorance, superstition and feudalism.
I look at the world a bit different than you do. I believe in one God who spread natural resources around the globe such that to advance our individual societies we would have to learn to negotiate and trade with one another rather than fight.
As for WWI I do not think the average Briton even knew where Serbia was much less the reasons for the war. Similarly I am not all that certain that the Archduke Ferdinand’s assassination was the seminal cause of the War. Remember there was no mass media and news of his assassination must have taken many weeks to spread. My gut tells me that other pressures were at work and the assassination was a coincidence rather than a trip point.
@ Dan
Even if you are right about Iran, things are obviously cyclical. They want religion, then they want secular, then they will want religion. It’s kind of like in the US when one party runs things for 8 years, then they want to give the other party a chance..
As for WW1, the assasination was the direct cause of the war. Austria Hungary declared war Serbia because a Bosnian serb killed the archduke. Russia was bound be treaty to aid serbia, France was bound to aid russia, germany was bound to aid austria hungary. So these countries that had no gripes with each other had to declare war on the other nations due to treaty obligations. That’s irrational.
It would be like the US having to go to war with Canada because some country we are allied with in central africa is at war with Canada.
@Steve
I thought we went to war with Canada …. they won :))
As I have said previously, the problem is Islam as a doctrine, not Muslims.
Start with the basics. All Muslims believe that there is no god but Allah and Mohammed is his prophet. Simple, but it demands that Muslims follow the Koran and the perfect pattern of Mohammed’s words and deeds (his Sunna). The Sunna is found in the Hadith (Traditions of Mohammed) and the Sira (Mohammed’s biography). Today, these three texts, the Trilogy, are available in readable editions.
The doctrine of political and religious Islam is contained in these three books. It is very simple–three books–a Trilogy. To know Islam, read the Koran, Sira and Hadith; don’t go and ask your Muslim friends.
This “peaceful Muslims = peaceful Islam” statements are actually about Muslim-ology, not Islam. It is perfectly fine to study Muslims, but do not draw conclusions about Islam from them. There is a cause and effect relationship that is confused. Islam causes Muslims. Muslims do not cause Islam. Muslim-ology teaches little about Islam.
In my opinion, only Muslims are able to stem the tide of increasing Islamic terrorism, because they understand the background which the terrorists come from. If there’s one thing that we in the West should have learned, then it’s that you can’t throw all the terrorists into the same pot. Our general idea of the typical terrorist is that he’s male, comes from a deprived family with 16 children, has no education and sees no future, and the only way to do something supportive for his family is to blow himself up, because Al Qaeda will take care of them. But, as we’ve seen from the terrorists of 9/11, some of them were very well educated, came from a westernized family and, at least in our spoiled secularized eyes, had no reason whatsoever to do what they did.
That’s why I think that what we need are moderate, well scholarized Muslims who can argue with the extremists on their own grounds and show them where they go wrong. The typical Westerner would never be able to achieve anything.
@Alec Paterson October 17, 2008 at 3:37 pm
What you say may have been true in the past but now I think that you are pasing words.
Muslims are what they have made themselves as perception is always reality and the world’s perception is that the belief system is one of violence, death and destruction. That makes them incapable of self reformation.
@ Katharina
Could you tell us what are acceptable losses for the non muslim world to have to deal with until Muslims decide to do what you suggest? Do you think maybe 15,000 or less non muslims getting killed by religions fanatics is a price worth paying? What would be your number?
We don’t need well scholarized muslims to argue with extremists. We need people to realize that God is a fictional book character, that these people are absolutely insane that they would kill over a fictional book character. You cannot “argue” with insane people.
When people give up the mass fraud and delusion that religion is, the terrorism due to religion will stop. Not before then. So long as people believe in the fictional sky friend, people will get killed over it.
I can’t imagine a stupider reason to be killed than over someone being so insecure they need this fictional friend to get through their day.
YES! Muslims must resolve to fight Islamic fanatics rather than continuing to allow terrorist control them. The U.S. should aide where necessary, since it help destabilize the region by helping Bin Laden lead the Taliban into power in Afghanistan against Russia. Aiding Muslim countries does not mean sighting their civil wars, it is Muslims responsibility to stabilize the region!
U.S. policy seems to always conflict with international relations when national security issues, like oil, are in jeopardy. Diplomacy will always lose EVEN if this is to the detriment of the American people.
If the legion of elites in the Islamic soceity cannot reason together to change whatever elements in the Islamic doctrine/believes that instigates VIOLENCE, then joined forces would be required to impose justice upon the extremists among them,
@Katharina & Jessica
“Well Scholarized Muslims….” Excuse me but where have they been for the past decade? The truth is that it all sounds good but in practice it does not work.
Also asking the US to aide where necessary is making us the whipping boy again.
I thought Muslims wanted America out and now you want us back in?
Katharina makes an excellent point about where the terrorists of 9/11 came from and I think that needs to be addressed as if we can cut off the roots if hatred we can kill the “Hydra”.
@ Steve & Kelsie
Excellent point s about religion vs rape and pedophilia!
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@ Bret
Thanks for bring up the point of how women are treated in Islamic culture and one could be labeled a witch for simpling have a white robe. Women are always left out of equation when religion dictates they follow some outdated —- book.
Washington Institutionalized Islam!
TEHRAN – Muslim fanatics must forever thank Washington! This persistance of fighting anything and everything in the Middle East cum Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan has ensured Muslims a lifeline and steady income.
It is so easy to instill fear and terrify the public when you have the upper hand. Take Iran for instance: 30 years isolation which has led to the predominance of prelates in politics, trade and everyday life. They have got it all. Loan-sharking in the name of Islamic banking, trampling on people’s rights in the name of ascetic moral values and perpetually hounding the masses with threats and trash from their pulpits.
@ Dan
Just a few days ago there was a report on BBC World Service where they told the story of some “extreme extremists” who were in prison. The scholar came in and said “Salaam Aleikum” and the leader of the three prisoners threw the shoe at him. The scholar asked, “What have I just done? Salaam is one of the 96 names for Allah, so you just threw a shoe at Allah.” and left. The next day the leader asked to be moved to another cell because the other two were threatening to kill him… These are the kind of scholars that we need!
@ Steve
You are making very convincing arguments about the legitimacy of religion and the need to Muslims to stabilize the region. You lose me when you take it to extreme and lump all people of faith into a crazy people with a “fictional sky friend. People are so stupid.” Come on, is it necessary to attack someone for their believes in a “God”? Isn’t this what Islamic extremist are doing?
I think you are right, the heart of the issues is, “how many people are [we] comfortable with getting killed over people’s belief in a fictional deity?” Part of the issue, I think, from any religious extremist is a disrespect for their cultural and beliefs. What do we do when their views impose on our lives? We do not “play” by the same rules, so how can different forms of terrorism be fought when the legitimacy of their ideology threatens national security everywhere?
Hi Steve
Reyr October 17, 2008 at 2:26 pm post
Reformation yes, but on individual nation >>>>solution basis. It requires incentives. Gradual integration into secular and moderate society.
It must begin at the top since it implies safegaurds and legal protection for anyone involved. We must dispel fear and the notion that anything on earth is above criticism.
Turkey is an excellent example of Jews, Christians and Muslims living and enjoying life side by side.
Modern days Muslim’s behaviour is because of constant denial of justice & hipocracy of Euopen’s been exposed in Lawrance Of Arabia’s achievement’s.
No doubt second WW promises with Jewish been full filled in shape of Isriel, but the promises of USSR war never been fullfilled by USA & Europe.
The journey from MUJAHDEEN to TERRORISTS is full with blunder’s, we USA & EU suppose to understand our mistakes, we are not brave enough to adress core issue’s & root cause of terrorisam, just might is right kind of behaviour may not work all the time.
We suppose to understand that Islam never be understand complete without Muslim’s believe in Jesus & Moses.
No one ever forced to Jewish & Christines,, to convert as Muslim, this was there choice & this is how Muslim’s domination is very clear in Arab world,
Any wild behaviour ever been noticed in regard to Holy places though Terrorisam is going on.
Only power abuse will not stop terrorisam unless we adress core issues, and this can be done by Ideological front.
Yes or No. Terrorisms is not just for certain groups,radical,religions or races but is just a modern word uses to fight a certain wars in different part of the world because terror is about fear and if its about fear then anyone who is carrying a killing weapons is a terrorist no matter what kind of weapons he/she hold. Therefore terrorisms would be inherited and will remain and still remain as one of the major world challenger in generations to come wether in small or large scales it will coutinue,continue and continueous……. .
Is it up to Muslims to solve Islamic terrorism?
Even if Islamic terrorism only effected Muslims it would still be “our ” duty to help out,however since it is a worldwide phenomenon every country should contribute to diminish the threat.
Short answer? Whereas Jesus is a prophet of Islam, and Jesus taught us to love our enemies, then Islam does have great power to overcome the deceptions of those who would confuse its message to convert its followers as a means to their own corrupted ends.
The Reverend Martin Luther King Jr. has already demonstrated the power of faith to overcome terrorist violence born closer to home. It is a sad insult to his legacy that we must even ask such foolish and misleading questions. What is the real root cause of “Islamic” terrorism anyway?
@ Jessica
Yes, I do. Because I think so long as people are getting killed over religion, my “mean words” are not remotely as bad as people getting killed. I guess I just value life, and think the stupidest possible reason to get killed is over religion. So yes, if it hurts someone’s feelings, I absolutely don’t care, becuaes if I had my way, people wouldn’t be getting killed. So long as people are getting killed, I don’t give a damn about someone’s feelings, or their beliefs. SO long as people get killed over religion, religion is illegitimate. It should be mocked every chance you get, until people stop killing and being fanatical over their fictional fairy friend.
Hi again gang ! :-)… Wow, so I am as dangerous as a paedophile or a rapist ??!! I’ll take that as a compliment and I do hope that my senior doctors at the hospital would see me as you guys here on this blog see me… Anyway, I am a 22 years old female Baghdadi medical student who proudly practices Islam, if anyone here on this blog has got a question for me about today’s on-air topic without the intention of intimidation or insultation, then I’ll be more than happy to answer it… I am an ordinary Middle Eastern Muslim citizen, and I have been raised also by an ordinary Middle Eastern Muslim family, and I am also a woman, so is there anyone outthere who’s interested in asking me ?! With my love… Yours forever, Lubna in Baghdad…
RE Iraq
As Jens pointed out yesterday, Iraq had 70 billion surplus. Iraqis should sort out their own civil war and the U.S. to withdraw ASAP. I think it’s ridiculous for Iraqis to want for U.S foot the bill for their civil war and have our military lead the battle against the terrorist attacking their own Muslims bothers and sisters, but to keep U.S. foreign policy. My tax player dollars have better use at home.
Great question. Muslims should definitely be brutal about root causes of this rise of terrorism, but I doubt they can change much themselves. The problem lies equally elsewhere.
But, I doubt anyone really wants to hear that Western oil and other kinds of extraction companies and their governments and their military forces
1. paying off and supporting anti-democratic dictators that enrich a few at the top,
or
2. asserting territorial control since the 1910s over important Muslim countries to guarantee Western access to oil
are potential root causes, exacerbated by nearly a century of Western money pouring into despotic coffers, .
Or, the British Empire uni-lateral decisions for the Balfour Proclamation that unleashed a rise in Arab Nationalism since the 1930s,
or occupying military forces and illegal right-wing settlers and land-grabbers who the West does nothing to stop, despite UN resolutions from the World Community.
All of these issues have contributed to a relative deterioration of quality of life in former Ottoman Empire lands over the last generations, incredible widening in inequalities and injustices there, and mass emigration out to Western countries All creating new disenfranchised ethnic minority groups struggling in economically constrained, historically zenophobic and increasingly overtly anti-Islamic societies.
How can Muslims alone change that? But, sure, they should be their own best advocate to try to do so.
Of course Muslims hsould be at the helm of the effort to rein in terrorism. In fact, some Muslim-dominated coutries have already been fighting terrorism, with guns and with books. Check out Saudi Arabia’s re-education camps (also in the NYT and on NPR). Add to that the hundreds, if not thousands of people and groups who have signed statements condemning terrorism and declaring it antithetical to Islam.
This cannot be a Muslim-only effort, however. Terrorism is a gobal problem now; and all global leaders must be involved in the struggle. I would suggest that certain global leaders study the Saudi method, which has been successful in turning out level-headed thinkers, reformed jihadists. Our guns and bombs seem only to be making more of them, not re-educating them.
Yes. Terrorism need reductions but not solving and the simple way to reduce it is by Muslims scholares to tells their pupils/student that Allah is God when we come to its meaning in english. Also as a Sudanese myself i knew that Allah or God mean thesame thing to me,therefore reduction in terrorist activities is about languisic or those who know many languages to play their part in curving terrorism or radical Islams.
WE ASKED FOR IT
Muslims should certainly try—considering it is being done as a religious act. Can’t Muslims pray to stop the terrorism? Or will this not work? Or is the terrorism okay, because it is deserved?
How lovely that terrorists don’t discriminate against who their victims will be; killing innocent people. Then we are asked to be objective in our intellectual response to the plight of the terrorists and Muslims at-large—because we apparently all asked for it, what ignorant moronic pathetic stupidity!
hello everyone,
Well its not just Muslims.When there are Muslims creating terrorism around the world,if a Hindu goes and requests them to stop terrorism,that would certainly not help.Why would Muslims ever hear what Hindus have to say or vice versa?So I think Muslims can understand fellow Muslims better and can help restoring peace.
But as they say:’An eating mouth cannot be blocked by a mustache.’If a group of people set an aim to kill people and spread terrorism,no one can stop them.
Thank you
Abhinav
Terrorism has become a business with entrenched interests,terrorists turn to drug smuggling, human trafficking and protection rackets to raise money for their cause and earn a living.
I remember hearing about a scheme to eradicate ferral mink in the U.K.,this would be encouraged by offering a bounty for each dead mink handed over,what happened was the mink population did not decrease as expected ,why because people started raising mink in order to get the bounty.
The same holds true for terrorists, if you offer a bounty for every terrorist, people cultivate terrorists, so they can hand them in dead or alive for the money.
This happened in Kashmir and Punjab in the 1980s and 1990s and I guess it is also the case in Pakistan and Afghanistan today.
@ Steve
You either haven’t had your angry juice today or you’ve been listening to George Carlin WAY too much. Because I’m agreeing with you.
As far as I can tell from historical research, humans have an innate need to believe in something. There are simply too many Bad People and Bad Things and we need to believe that some day, somewhere these people/things will get their comeuppance. Now as far as I can tell, religion (as in the organization, ritual, and formal codes of conduct) was invented by man as a way of thought control and to capitalize on the ignorance and superstition of masses that didn’t understand cause-and-effect.
Now, in this next part I know full well I will be called a bigot, racist, intolerant and any other of a dozen insults. But self-censorship is stupid when there is a legitimate reason to discuss something.
In the following two examples, ask yourself — rationally — which one is the more likely.
Moses was given the 10 commandments by God on Mt. Sinai. The Lord chose him among all others to give His Big Ten Rules to follow. OR could it be that Moses wanted some way to control his followers so he went up on a mountain, all by himself, when no one was watching, made up the Big Ten and SAID that God had given them to him.
From ~610 until his death, Muhammad received visions from Allah which were recorded by his followers. The Koran is only a copy of an eternal book that is kept by Allah in heaven as his complete message to humankind. OR Muhammad suffered from any one of a laundry list of psychological conditions that caused him to hallucinate. Or he just suffered from sun stroke. He just happened to be a charismatic leader who rose to prominence in a time of great civil strife, upheaval and stress.
Just a thought to consider.
Hi Lubna
Reyr October 17, 2008 at 4:43 pm post
I do object to compulsory Islamic dress for women; I object to bigotry and bias when it comes to choosing a woman at work; I object to the downward scale of pay for Muslim girls; I object to constant bullying of female staff at work; I object to travel restrictions on Muslim women; I object to their silence and fear when walking on the pavement; I object to the subservience of Muslim women and their paltry income in editorial sweat shops; I object to the deprivations of women and their absence in Parliament or Cabinet; I object to the silence of Muslim women in fighting for their rights.
@ Steve
“SO long as people get killed over religion, religion is illegitimate. It should be mocked every chance you get, until people stop killing and being fanatical over their fictional fairy friend.”
You make an excellent point, but it is wrapped in inflammatory [prejudice? criticisms?] that it is lost. The reality is that the majority of people (90% of the world’s population, was the last figure I heard?) on this planet believe in god. We need to combat the problem from this premise. Your “mean words” are not the issue. LOL
As usual everyone has good points – sadly few of the Muslim faith see fit to render an personal opinion.
so many interesting posts
I would like to see a ‘reformation’ in the US of the Fundamentalist Christian movement which is dangerously sounding like NAZI in their political rallies, getting ready to burn books and stop science through legislation…
and also a reformation in Orthodox Judaism which is violating the mystical tenants of Torah and the Prophets everyday in the illegal settlements, and in the the wobbly Knesset where it is allowed to continue on, and at AIPAC meetings all around the US.
talk about 14 centuries of dark ages…our own legis processes are about to snap off the lights again…and the powers that be work real hard to keep people in the dark here.
About 14 centuries of Muslims:
the Abassid and Umayyid caliphates were the ones responsible for translating and preserving Greek mathematics, engineering, medicine, Persian, and Hindu manuscripts on Mathematics, science, astronomy, at a time when Europe was under the dark tyranny of state sponsored religion, and roman numbers had no zero or multiplication function!
All their muslim stuff eventually got translated into European vernacular at the end of our own Dark Ages…when Baghdad was at its height as a center of learning…establishing the basis for the ‘reformation’ so many of you so authoritatively talk about, but few connect to the Arabic language culture flowering that enabled it…
I agree with Brett in the first post that all of this rise of ‘fundamentalism’ in all of the Monotheisms is a direct result of threats perceived from outside and loses of economic standing and security for basics of life…
all their religious books support war and hatred of rivals for land, riches, food…in the name of g-d
brought on in no small way by Western countries asserting their economic power over Middle Eastern countries for almost 100 yrs since the fall of Ottoman-ia!
I`d say the first step is to do something about US terrorism which is now being directed at American citizens who protest or speak out..
@ Jessica
“The reality is that the majority of people (90% of the world’s population, was the last figure I heard?) on this planet believe in god.”
That’s scary.
Then again most people have to be in a relationship as well. People are just very needy.
Ros and WHYS team,
I’d like to know how your guest propose we should fight religious fanatics and terrorist when their views require them to annihilate our way of living? Since we cannot agree to fight by the same rules, so how can different forms of terrorism be fought when the legitimacy of their ideology threatens national security everywhere and the safety of everyone?
Please? Thanks.
@Lubna
As a medical student do you make ward rounds with senior doctors?Have you tended to patients yourself?
Have you ever treated anyone who was perceived or labeled a terrorist
Take this next question seriously please,since there have been a lot of dead bodies around Iraq recently have some relatives donated bodies for you medical students to study anatomy or dissection?
@ Steve
“That’s scary… Then again most people have to be in a relationship as well. People are just very needy.”
LOL, it is, but not to worry, I heard last night from the speeches at the Catholic Charities event in NYC that the Messiah is coming November 4th. So Obama will unite us all. (If you did not watch, McCain and Obama made very funny speeches. McCain had some of the best and very funny zingers where he jokes about Obama being a god.) Making light of a very tense topic.
BOWLING FOR TERRORISM
TERRORISTS: Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, killed 13, wounded 23.
ANALYSIS: Did the victims deserve it? Many were perhaps morons, bullies and jocks?
CONCLUSION: It’s great to ask questions, and to try and create environments, that won’t exacerbate the anger that can feed terrorists; but to suggest justification for these actions is evil and barbaric.
I believe that the U.S. should stay in Iraq until such a time as it has some stability. I don’t think that it is our place to address their issues. However, since we have already taken it upon ourselves to do just that we need to finish what we started and be done with it in a responsible and orderly way. Even though we are “helping”, we are still doing this because ultimately terrorists are threats to our security as well.
As far as Muslims solving Islamic terrorism, I don’t think it’s their place. As long as a person is not involved in terrorism it’s not right to lump them with people who are over the extreme. However, I don’t think it’s going to work to have big brother take care of it when the bully will return after he leaves. As it is, I wonder if things will just return to the way they were before. I find that very sad considering all of the American troops who have served there and lost their lives as well as innocent civilians. As for fixing things that are broken, I can’t say that I think that should be done. This isn’t a store where the saying is you break it you buy it.
Here’s a practical question I have. How come the Imams and Priests don’t like people questioning things?
Around the time those comics appeared in the newspapers, I asked some Muslim friends of mine just WHY it is sacrilegious to draw Muhammad. Their best response was “because it says so in the Qu’Ran.”
When I used to go to Sunday School, my favorite question was always “If God knows the heart and soul of every man, why did He bother testing Abraham? It’s not like God didn’t know.” The answer was always “It was a test of his faith in and obedience of God.”
Doesn’t it seem cruel for an omnipotent being to ask a father to kill his son then at the last minute go, “Psych! Gotcha! It was all a giant test. BOY you’re gullible.”
Einstein once said: I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation and is but a reflection of human frailty.
Problems and debates are everywhere but truely speaking the Muslim’s are quite strick espically interms of their religion. If they
don’t want other’s intervention in their religion then why don’t stop intervening on other’s.
Overall Muslims should start to honor other religion and contol their temper nor WAR is only what I can predict.
Brett “…the West does more to instigate Islamic terrorism than help the situation.”
Quite so. And there has been a bit of a history of this, from Knights Templar setting up trading routes to the recent Afghanistan, Iraq (Iran?) fiasco.
“The West” always seem to after what “The East” have, and instead of asking nicely, or maybe even paying for it, just go and take it.
To quote Charles de Montesquieu, (theory of separation of powers);
“I can assure you that no kingdom has ever had as many civil wars as the kingdom of Christ. “. This is not much of an example. “The West” has also been very quick to point the finger to “The East” and the people who instigated this particular “war on terror” have a lot to answer for, as do those politicians who so quickly and with gusto jumped on the bandwagon!
Unfortunately due to the much enhanced global communication systems, it has raised the question of “Who are the real terrorists?”.
The main problem is with the ‘rulers’, whether democratically elected or not, it makes little difference. The answer lies in The People getting a bit more of a grip on those who ‘rule’ them and those who ‘educate’ them.
A lot could be done there.
@ Shaun
Why God is so messed up and so self contradictory in the bible, is that we created God in our image, not the other way around. We’re so nacissistic, we think God must be just like us, so whoever wrote the bible gave God very human characterisitics. Honestly, ask yourself, if God were a person, would you be a friend with such a person who demands to be worshipped, who kills those that don’t worship him? No way. God would be seen as a egoist, a horrific excuse for a person, who has no friends, because who would want to be around someone like that, let alone worship them???
Time to make this fictional book character go bye bye before more mindless sheep kill in his name.
I put this on “talking points” but it seems relevant here. From the writings of my brother who died in 2004:
“Whether we are selfish or noble is a matter of some concern to a good citizen. Is what we did in Iraq simply another means of eventual profit, or was it done for reasons of security? Was it altruism? Or an aggressive expression of Machiavellian politics? I am certain only of not knowing, and find myself in the ridiculous position of hoping as a nation, we are behaving in a way proper to our position in the world. Of course, there’s no way to guarantee that we will, but SO LONG AS WE REMEMBER THAT POWER IS BEST USED AS A MEANS OF ASSURING MUTUAL SURVIVAL, NOT TO BULLY OTHERS INTO SUBMISSION, WE ARE WELL ON THE WAY TO DESERVING WHAT WE HAVE.” Oct. 17, 2003
Canada
Steve:
Honestly, ask yourself, if God were a person, would you be a friend with such a person who demands to be worshipped, who kills those that don’t worship him? No way. God would be seen as a egoist, a horrific excuse for a person, who has no friends, because who would want to be around someone like that, let alone worship them???
But I mean, what if he offered you 70-some-odd virgins… Would you be his friend then? lol
The way to damage the terrorists is to not be the evil force in the lives of muslims they say we are. As long as we are bombing villages in Iraq and Afghanistan and supporting Israel the terrorists win.
While the scorched earth tactics are said to be successful in Iraq it’s fair to note that an ethnic cleansing has become a reality on the ground for most Iraqis. There are also several million Iraqis that are unwilling or unable to return to Iraq after fleeing as refugees.
Fighting fire with fire leaves only scorched ground. The proper way to fight a fire is to carefully remove the fuel before the fire starts and leave healthy growth. That would mean very carefully supporting healthy movements in Islam and pruning armed and active militants with the greatest care. If you cut down the orchard because a single tree has a diseased limb there isn’t much to eat afterwards.
@ Brett,
70-odd virgins, jessss that’s a lot work…..
Islam has a responsibility to keep an eye (and a hand) on it’s fringe elements that espouse violence. We, on the other hand, have a right (and a responsibility) to prosecute those who do us harm.
So far as Iraq is concerned we had no business invading in the first place, but as soon as we did we assumed the responsibility for the future of Iraq and we cannot dismiss that because it’s unpalatable. We have a duty to clean up the mess that we let those we put in office create.
WOW!!! The Rapist and Pedophile example must have really struck a nerve as the words and meaning were twisted then ridiculed. Typical response when there is no justification to unanswerable aberrant behavior.
But again I will make my point that Rapists and Pedophiles are unable to reform themselves so I believe is the Muslim world unable to reform itself.
Now let’s see the words twisted again.
Steve ~
God sounds like a dictator to me….
I don’t know why people take God so seriously. We humans createed everything. We are the ones who created god, religion, culture,etc. It was great at some age but now the age of god and religion is over. Its the age of technology and development.
Let me tell you my concept on God “I think people created God because in the old age people needed answer to various question related creation and the best solution was god”. Now its time to move forward and leave the past in the past.Religion and God should be in HISTORY BOOKS, MUSIUM and LIBRARY. Not a part of living.
Its time to unite as HUMANS.
Last night on Charlie Rose, Nancy Pelosi connected the current economic crisis with the invasion and occupation of Iraq. It’s time for the Iraqi people and government to step up to the plate and spend some of their own billions on their own country to fight their own fight against terrorists and illegal millitant groups.
Terrorism by radical Muslims can be contained by united action against it. It will only be ended when there is no sympathy or support, overt or covert, for terrorism in the Muslim communities and from knee-jerk liberals everywhere.
Canada
Hm. People do a lot of good things in the name of God as well though — we owe our modern hospital system to the Knights Hospitalers, our current understanding of physiology and medical techniques has roots in the ancient medicines of Arabia and India. St. Thomas Aquinas was a VERY influential thinker.
I remember watching Kingdom of Heaven and hearing “God Wills It!!” come out of everybody’s mouth, both Muslim and Christian.
I checked my Bible and “Love thy neighbour” didn’t look like “Love Thy Neighbour”*
*Unless he believes in a different invisible man in the sky from you.
And I checked the Qu’Ran and “To me unto my religion, and to you unto yours” didn’t look like “To me unto my religion and to you unto yours”*
Unless they’re an infidel. Then by all means, kill the heathen.
If God willed anything, He’d will His almighty boot up the keister of anybody who presumed to interpret His word or message — which as far as I can tell is Love, Peace and Honor towards your fellow human.
I support VENESSA.
GOD is as a Dictator.
If God is there, then it is sure that he is mean.HE CREATED US SO THAT HE COULD RULE US.
the simple answer is YES. only muslims can tell their own to lay the weapons down. anything else is percieved as the “western world” telling them what to do, which is part of the problem.
@ Sasankh
Even if the unlikely is true, that there is a God, yes, we are God’s antfarm. God, if he’s real, is a very sick and twisted individual, not worthy of being worshipped. yet people not only worship, they kill over him.
I wish someone would just finally stand up and say “hey guy, it’s all just a joke, there’s no such thing as God”. Biggest fraud ever perpetrated. These same idiots who wrote the holy books were the types that though evil spirits caused what we today would view as mental illness. These morons thought the earth was flat. These fools thought the earth was the center of the universe. They’re so wrong about EVERYTHING, yet they’re right about God and religion? Please.
I cannot believe people still fall for it.
If God willed anything, He’d will His almighty boot up the keister of anybody who presumed to interpret His word or message — which as far as I can tell is Love, Peace and Honor towards your fellow human.
Exactly, God needs to come down and lay a backhand to those (Muslim and Christian, and otherwise) who twist his ‘words’ to inspire hatred towards fellow humans, whether theyre of another religion, purple, blue, white, black, gay, straight, whatever.
Pastors, Preachers, Caliphs, Ayatollahs, Mullahs, Mujtahids, Muezzins, Sahibs, other religious leaders and scholars, and everyday people do a wonderful job of manipulating or mis-interpreting scriptures to re-enforce and spread their own hate, fear, and ignorant prejudices.
What does the Muslim insurgency in thailand have to do with Israel or western influence over Arab nations?
Why do little girls get beheaded in Thailand? You can’t blame this on Israel or the US. It’s time for Muslims to stop blaming everyone other than themselves.
What is terrorism. To one it is terror, to another it is heroism. How do you fight an ideal. Islamic Terrorists are obviously fighting for an ideal, the only way to stop idealism is EDUCATION. It is too bad that in America Muslim, Arab, and Islam have become bad words almost evil. This is what happens when you try to fight ideals with force. Force requires an enemy and the enemy is an idea therefore a group of people become the enemy. The only way in my eyes to stop this kind of terror is to show how we are the same not focus on how different we are. That being said I think that Muslim leaders and influential members of Islam should step forward and strictly punish the people that want to use their religion as a vessel for hate. Militarized religions will only listen to their religious leaders. I know that if many of my kinsmen were using my religion as way to inflict terror on the world I would be outraged. MUSLIMS must unite to chop off the ugly cancer that is growing on their religion. These people are ruining their reputation and chances in the world that is just absurd. Not supporting it is not enough you must speak out and stop. This must happen from all muslims around the world from Canada all the way into the deepest reaches of Africa.
Is this entire show going to be muslims blaming the west for islamic terrorism?
Sorry, plenty of the people in the west hate the policies of muslim nations, like Iran, yet we have no desire to kill Iranians. Stop the excuses.
Stupid, blind, religioius people are murdering people because they are religious nutjobs. it’s that simple. There is no excuse for terrorism.
Get rid of these stupid religions, you’ll have one less reason for people to kill each other. Accept you worship a fictional book character.
Re: Religion and terrorism
I don’t see how this goes from a debate about Muslims being accountable for Islamic terrorism to religion being at fault. Do extremists practice the same exact religion as peaceful Muslims? They must not or at least they interpret it in a completely different way. They are using their religion, or view of it, as validation for killing people. It’s the terrorists that are the problem not religion! If you take it away, people will find another way to validate what they do.
The only way to confront terrorism is through the love of GOD. CHRISTIANS need to reach across religious lines and minister to the poor, displaced and ill in the islamic world. The roots of terrorism are sown from a lack a of love and compassion. The sense of hopelessness is the seed of hatred.
Eric
For terrorism to come to an end we need concerted efforts but i think the west and America in particular need to do more. The west need to realise that this war can never be won militarily. They need to change their approach towards the muslim world,they shouldn’ be forcing the muslims to do what the west think is right. They need to change their policy towards Palestine,leave Afghanistan and Iraq. Muslims need justice. As long as persecution persists towards the muslims their is little that muslims can do to change the status quo.
Ali mohammed in Zambia
Absolutely, of course it is. If Muslims state that their religion is one of peace and they do not agree with violence perpetrated in the name of Islam then they must defend its good name and prove the ideal they hold. If not them, then who else will end this cycle of violence. If they truly insist their religion is one of peace and has been hijacked by extremists or fundamentalists to give it a bad name then they must take it back, they must stop those practitioners within their religion. If violence is perpetrated in the name of Islam then to simply say that it does not represent them is not an adequate response to the problem. If anyone who follows a religion commits a violent act in the name of that religion, then it represents that religion, whether they are a minority or a majority they represent it.
Andrew
Australia
I think people in select groups want to hide behind religion to try and gain supreme power.
Mandie
I am a white male and walking around the streets people assume that I am a racist, child molesting, brutal pervert because, it seems, all men are like that and I have had looks directed at me many many times to that effect just because I am a man in a paranoid western society. So why would Muslims be taken aback when many believe their religion is about violence and terrorism when we see terrorist acts done specifically in the name of Islam. It is the same thing, guilt by association. But who will correct these misconceptions, if you say it is not me but your group does such things, then you have to weed out those elements in your own group and stop them because you cannot expect others to solve such problems. They do it in your name and if you do not stop them you are seen to passively condone their actions and their acts.
Lee in Auckland
NZ
@ Jennifer
No, religion is the problem. People have always killed over religion, and always will. Religion is part of a need people have, to deal with the insecurities and fear of being alone in the universe. When people lose their lives due to religion, religion loses its reason to exist.
Will these guests stop blaming muslim terrorism on the west? There is NO excuse for terrorism. These terrorist are INSANE people. Just insane. Sick, stupid, insane morons. Too bad there’s no hell for them to burn in.
Stop excusing them by blaming the west. These are religious nuts, their stupid beliefs cause them to kill people.
Reply to radio:
It is not justified to use your Religion as a way to attack people. As a species have we not learned this. It never works. Fighting for your country show patriotism NOT religious ideas. Fighting foreign troops shows that these people want their country the way it was. American Troops are not telling Muslims they cannot practice Islam.
The arrogance of the US and other western governments is disgusting. They refuse to recognize the role they played in the development and growth of extremist Islam. Since the end of World War Two the West has seen the Middle East as a gas station. They have chosen their allies by what political and economic advantages could be gained, ignoring their claims to be fighting for the freedom of all peoples…just look at such relationships as that of Saddam Hussain in the 80’s and the ongoing relationship with Saudi Arabia, neither of whom stand for the expressed core beliefs of Western society….this situation has helped make life extremely difficult for many people in the Middle East, leaving them little choice but to turn to madrases for education and a way to improve their family’s situation…that being said, Muslims around the world need to resist violent organizations and interpretations of the Koran, but the west needs to work to make it more beneficial for them to do so…build schools, build infrastructure, improve the lives of the people.
Mason
Park City, Utah
Pink and Gens – Reality check – Israel is not the reason that we have radiucal islamic terrorism. Whatever Israel does in the West Bank is positively mild compared to what Britain did during the mandate. Whatever strict rules are applied are watered down versions of British Mandate rules. After the Second World War Britain set up detention camps for holocaust survivors and brutally prevented survivors from reaching their homeland and had an extremely one sided policy in clear breach of their mandate. But we did not see Jews exploding on the streets of gaza.
If the west really wants to do something about Islamic extremism and your really believe that all Islamic extemism world wide is caused by the Palestinian self inflicted problems – then give your support to the Abbas government. Palestinian society is split in two – one side seeking peace and co-existence and one side in Gaza breeding hatred.
Appeasement is not the problem. the real problem is poverty. Islamic fundamentalism targets the economies of the Arab world, Hammas has done this in Gaza to devastating effect, the Iran backed militias have done it in Iraq, they then blame use the poverty to cause hatred of the West.
At the same time the West is being drained by collosal oil prices and let’s face it the Arab world does not lack a penny or two. the problem is that the wealth does not reach the mass of the Arab world it is concentrated in a few hands who fiannce the religious schools which are often a stepping stone on the road to terrorism.
The saudi’s have financed things for a long time buying relative peace for themselves but creating a time bomb for mankind
Question for the guests. I realize most of you will blame Israel, so let’s discuss that. There are Palestinian christians as well, live under the same circumstances as Palestinian muslims. Yet there are no Palestinian christian suicide bombers. Why is that? Perhaps it might have something to do with Islam?
@steve
Religion is like a rotten egg whose time and age has ended. Its time to move with time. Its time to make the world a God free paradice.
Islam is in conflict with:
~Jews (Israel & Palestine)
~Catholics (Philippines & Indonesia)
~Protestants (Europe, UK, USA & Africa)
~Hindus (Kashmir, Bali-Indonesia)
~Buddhists (Thailand)
~Zoroastrians (Iran)
~Baha’is (Egypt, Iran)
~Atheists/Buddhists/Taoists (Sinkiang, China)
~Sikhs (Pakistan)
~Itself (Shia vs Sunni, Sufi vs Sunni, Wahabi vs …).
Either Islamic terrorism stops of its own accord or people Will act in concert and the backlash will make WWI + WWII look like a picnic!!
The answer to your question is very simple: The Rest of the World needs to take issue with terrorism once and for all.
@ Steve
Steve from your comments I guess that you are a believe in unbelief. Therefore you cannot realize why these people are not insane. They are doing what they believe they must. People did the same thing about science in the 16 and 17th century, there were brutal fights about the shape of the planet. It is passion not insanity. It is uneducated to think that people who fight for what they believe is insane.
We need to mind our own business in the Middle East, including Arab countries and Israel. Our unwavering support of Israel is angering a lot of people in that part of the world, and I see no reason why we should be doing this. If you live by the sword, you’ll die by the sword.
This of course won’t stop all terrorism against the West, but it will be a start.
I dont think there is relation between Islam and terrorism…some isolated people are just using it and western news agency like BBC,CNN are using it to publicise . It seems like there is all the wrong is done by the Islam. Its not true and because of that attitude Western countries will never know true Muslims. Theuy will think we are terrorists..thats ridiculous
Pavel(melbourne)
(Bangladeshi living in australia)
@ Jay
“It is uneducated to think that people who fight for what they believe is insane.”
So I guess it was sane for John Hinckley to shoot Reagan to impress Jodie Foster? At least she’s real. God isn’t real.
People fight and kill for some “being” there is not a shred of evidence of, is not insane, and it’s uneducated to think that’s insane?
How many other things that you have no shred of evidence of that you would fight and kill over?
CAN YOU HATE RELIGION?
What’s wrong with hating a religion or its followers? We can hate bigots. It just so happens many religions are bigoted, so what is wrong with hating them for it? Especially, if its members, are by proxy bigoted?
Why tolerate the intolerant? Which is what many are suggesting we do. Religions are ideological, just like fascism and many other things. If I can dislike or even hate fascism; then I can certainly dislike or hate religions and their members.
You cannot equate religion, with skin color and sexual preference; because people don’t chose skin color or sexual preference, but they certainly choose religion.
Not entirely. Countries like US or UK can not come to places like Afghanistan and Iraq to protect them selves (as they say) from terrorism and then later say Muslims have to solve their problems. Terrorism is a complex problem with deferent root causes depending on were it is happening, however one think that is common between all of them is the fact that usually multi-nations are involved in them.
@ Steve
You are unable to wrap your mind around a concept of something bigger than you.
What “Spew” from your people on air.
Muslims blame everyone else but they cannot take responsibility for their own complicity in the violence.
Furthermore the nonsense that everyone needs to read the Koran and decide for themselves is:
A. A recruitment tool
B. Will end up with a billion different opinions.
The problem of terrorism has nothing to do with religion. It is the result of extreme social injustice, repression and violation of a people’s and a country’s right that has not been remedied by the international community. Sooner or later the people will revolt against injustice. This happened in northern ireland, south africa and palestine. Religion is only a banner for those who wish to rally around causes that will help articulate their grievances.
James in Oman
Oh yeah it’s all America’s or Israel’s fault. These Muslims are children unable to take any responsibility for themselves!!!
Muslims are not able themselves to combat islamic terrorism. They need help of the “west” in to overpower it.
Igor in Ukraine
Why is it the Muslim World. Why must land dictate your religion. Can you not be a muslim anywhere. Nations rise and fall, like waves, using your religion to inflict pain upon people only shows stupidity. Blowing yourselves up like idiots is not a way to tell America, or whatever country you decide to hate, to leave.
The core of this problem is lying within conflict of Israel and palestines. If western country and United states become neutral in this conflict we would see less radicalization
@ Jay
Wrong. I’m just one that doesn’t need some easy answer to the big concepts. How convenient it is for you to have the “God, that’s the answer, and if you don’t believe exactly as I do, you get to go to hell. That’s how right I am, and everyone else is wrong, so right, I go to heaven, you go to hell”…
You can’t wrap you rmind around the concept that you simply cannot know why the universe is here. I can admit that I don’t know, whereas you have the easy solution. Some fairy created everything, and don’t you dare question this, or you go to hell!
There’s no God, I’m strong enough to admit it, that I don’t know all the answers, whereas, you have them all. The simplest possible solution, some all powerful being must be the answer.
Come back with one shred of evidence of there being a God other than some stupid fictional book. That’s not evidence. I can write a book about whatever I want as well, does that prove anything? Sorry, but your sky fairy is a human creation. WE created God. Can you accept this?
I think a primary point that needs to be highlighted is the fact that this violence is not IN the name of Islam, it is being used for political ambitions. Many scholars on Islamist terrorism emphasis that Islam is used for political gains, and does not have religious motivation–just as one may dispute the motivations of the Christian Crusades, which was more related to power and control of land. Today displaced, opressed young men from war-torn countries need something to latch onto, and the perversion of Islam purported by many of these radical leaders provides that purpose, mission and meaning to their lives. If approached from this perspective, I think it is clearer to see how this can be resolved. Islam is not the problem, it is the people who take it and use it for their own purposes.
Emily
Hurray, more blaming Israel for insane people blowing up themselves. Why aren’t there palestinian christian suicide bombers? Anyone care to answer this?
I know, that would divert attention from the real problem.
Muslims cannot stop the murders in Darfur why would anyone think they can stop the terrorism?
I disagree with the English Somali lady who says that the world should leave Somalia and Afghanistan to be governed by radical terrorists. I would prefer these countries to be occupied by those promoting democracy rather than Islamic extremism, so that the people themselves can decide their future rather than as in Somalia the terrorist Islamic Courts Militia.
Maria from Omagh in NI
Education, freedom of expression, human rights are key factors in eradicating terrorism.
Liviu from Westlake,Ohio
If there were soldiers from a foreign country half way round the world roaming around my city with tanks and guns I would do anything I could to stop them. I would throw anything I could at them at any opportunity. And you should know I am a woman of 66 who lives in San Francisco. Soldiers and tanks in my city would turn me into a terrorist overnight.
Hi again gang ! :-)… And Al Salaam Aleikum my dearest brother Akbar in Tehran… As for your points about the way women are treated in Arab and Muslim countries, let me tell you a little more about myself and my enviroment : I am a 5th year medical student at Baghdad medical school and I wear the Islamic headscarf since I was 11 years old… More than 50% of students in my college are females, and the head of the department of the Internal Medicine in my college is a Muslim woman… We also do have many senior doctors of different specialties at our hospital who are Muslim women… Women are very well represented in both our parliament and our government… In Iraq women are doctors, nurses, dentists, engineers, teachers, college professors, lawyers, judges, MPs, ministers, ect., ect.,. Trust me Akbar, I do have so many things to worry about concerning my day to-day life, but the way I am treated as a practicing Muslim young lady isn’t included… In my college, some female students like myself are committed to the Islamic dressing code, but there’re also many other female students who are not, and nobody at all so far has forced them to be… My best girlfriend at college is practicing Christian, also our dean and many of our college professors and senior doctors are Christians… Akbar, Allah in the Holy Quran says : “There’s no compulsion in religion”, and that’s totally enough for me… With my love… Yours forever, Lubna in Baghdad…
For those who do believe, we must endeavour to make the taking of innocent life a crime against god.
If you must commit suicide, go do it off in distant corner where you don’t damage anything or disturb anyone with a mess of your own making.
Blaming the media? They only report the news. They aren’t the ones killing people over their fictional sky friend.
Who cares about the positive things? It’s a fictional belief system. I don’t give a damn about the positives of people’s religious beliefs. It’s a fictional system for insecure people.
There was much more muslim protest against mohammed cartoons than there were were against the terrorism.
Stop the terrorism and the bad press will stop. Stop blaming everyone else. Get a GIANT MIRROR.
I guess it was an act of elevation celebrating Islam when Muslim Terrorists threw a man in a wheelchair into the Mediterranean.
What about the Intra Muslim violence?
Is Shia,Ishmaili,Ahmedia and Sufi Islam as valid as Sunni Wahabi Salafi Islam?Are those sects Heretics?
@ Steve
Religion is not the problem. Take it away and people will find another means for validating whatever motives they have.
I suggest that the elephant in the room here that is being ignored is the business interests that drive all of the Western interference in the Middle east.
If there was no Oil there would be no Western presence, The House of Saud would still be nomads riding around on camels, Iraq would still be whole, Iran would still be well educated and civilized, on and on.
There must be a better way to do business than invasions and occupations that offend religions and local peoples.
If the centre’s premise is true, and it should be left to Muslims, what is keeping Muslims from doing something about it?
Irene
Singapore
Saying that it will be muslims who solve the issue of Islamic terrorism sounds rather accusatory, but while I would express it differently I agree with the premise. Given the comical rumours of senator Barrack Obama being a “secret muslim”, perhaps this is another reason to vote for him?
Jude
Vancouver, Canada
Muslims (defined as those that submit) have a genetic problem with the very fundamentals of that which they’ve submitted themselves. No amount of positive press, nor intellectual scholars shall be able to overwhelm the clearest and most honest interpretation, and subsequent immulation, of the life of Mohamed. As a guest has said, many translations are available of the Koran, Hadiths, and popular Suna. Read them.
Religion is not the problem! People are the problem!
If there were no such thing as religion, people would find a way to kill each other.
One has only to read some of the comments on this blog to see how committed people are to their own beliefs, religious or not.
We really need to understand that Muslims are simply people like the rest of us. Let’s get over ourselves.
@ steve
I never said I believed in god
Please ask your guests why there are no Palestinian christian suicide bombers, despite living under the same “brutal israeli occupation” that Palestinian muslims live under.
Steve
sp
“emulation” no pun intended
The entire premise of discussion on islam is incorrect. the real issue is religious fundamentalism (both islam, christian, jewish, etc.) in general vs. secular society in general. This is the real source of the conflicts. Which direction should the world go? Fundamentalism or secular?
Joseph
Seattle, Washington State, USA
As an American Arab & Muslim the state of Muslim thought in the world distresses me. From within Islam a dialogue must and is slowly emerging regarding how to express it’s beliefs within the modern political / secular world, however, this will not do much unless Western powers take an evenhanded approach to the Israel/Palestine conflict, a symbol of Western prejudice in the region, as well as disengaging responsibly from Iraq. Nevertheless, the burden for dealing with this mess is shared by both the Muslim world and Western States that have been meddling in the region.
Ahmed in San Francisco
Lets just get it out there
The world hates Muslims.
The most effective way to combat islamic terrorism in the west is for governments to focus on the integration of muslims into society. The demonisation of Islam leads to social prejudice and limmited opportunities for young muslim men in particular. This makes them easy targets for recruitment to terrorism. I believe it would also be helpfull for young muslims to have access to imams who speak their own language, instead of imams imported from the middle east.
Nathalie
Amsterdam
Listen how they parse the words. This is why no one believes them. These people cannot accept any responsibility. Bah Humbug!!!!
If there were soldiers from a foreign country half the way around the world roaming around my city with tanks and guns I would do anything I could to stop them. I should mention that I am a woman of 66 who lives in San Francisco. Soldiers and guns in my city would turn me into a “terrorist” overnight.
Jean
San Francisco
Muslim are like black people in America. Nothing is ever their fault. They just blame it on everyone else. They are Reactors not built on action.
ooops…NEW EXCUSE…Now it is because they do not have an elected Government.
Geez…when will Muslims take personal responsibility?
Obviously NEVER. That is why outside forces must destroy Muslim terrorists and reform Islam.
Islam came to Somalia by force through left handed Mohammod Gra’n not by peaceful means.
What is called Islam is not Islam at all. It is Mohammed’s uncles plan who sought to conquer Arabia that will conquer the world which the prophet Mohammed disapproved.
Sam
On facevalue, it is a good initiative indeed. However, I can tell you… the sub-continental experience tells us that it never works.
You may think that the Islamic fundamentalists may lend a more sensible ear to moderate people from their own religion. I wish they did. Unfortunately they don’t.
Such meetings often lead to reasonable consensus among the participants. However, it isolates the ‘moderates’ from the rest of the solution. We need sensible people from all the religions to exchange their points in a level playing field.
It is always very difficult to look at the source of the problem without looking at its ramifications.
No government that is stupid. Christians live all over the world many in China.
Watching the US elections, one is reminded just how theocratic our nation is. It’s not a big stretch to say that when a presidential candidate’s religion is taken into account in an election, whatever violent acts that president does after the election in the name of the country is also in the name of his or her religion. So Islam is not the only religion in whose name violence is committed. But the blame is fundamentally misplaced, religion will only reflect the social and economic conditions of the region. When people are angry because they feel oppressed, they will fight back whether or not they find justification for fighting back in a religion.
Diana
Other than apostacy, there is no one best solution.
Muslims of immpeccable reading comprehension and intestinal fortitude will have to be dealt with by police and militaries. Nominal Muslims whose heart isn’t really in the hatred of we Kufar, might be reasoned with.
So presuming the insults, etc are true, is being called names enough to radicalize someone and want to blow themselves up? Think about being a black person in the US in the 1950s, and being harassed by whites, or being segregated. Yet there were never any black suicide bombers, despite having much worse done to them than being called “Osama”.
Nope, the religion is the problem.
False flag provocations are responsible for as much terrorism as dedicated terrorists – the Clash of Civilizations is fabricated – The Global War Of Terror is Gladio for the 21st C. Islamofascism is Monolithic Communism for this time. This must be addressed.
Until and unless Muslims deal with radical Islamists, no substantial changes will happen. It is not media or governments that will make the difference. Talk about a double standard…. the speaker said that media generalizes….what about terrorists generalizing that all westerners and specifically the US are bad and should be exterminated.
Nancy in the US
Doesn’t Islam have a great deal of responsibility for terrorism conducted in the name of Islam when it requires scholarly interpretation of the primary religious text to teach people that Islam is not violent.
David
The IRA NEVER identified themselves as Catholic or Christian, in fact they were ex-communicated by the church. Muslim terrorists base their terrorism on Islamic texts.
Maria, Omagh in Northern Ireland
False flag provocations are responsible for as much terrorism as dedicated terrorists – the Clash of Civilizations is fabricated – The Global War Of Terror is Gladio for the 21st C. Islamofascism is Monolithic Communism for this time. This must be addressed.
Jackie in SE Portland, US
Selena in Canada,
Religion is indeed a problem. How is it not? If people are allegedly the problem, what exactly does that mean anyway? Religion is an answer to the ultimate questions of life based on nothing but speculation. Faith in this speculation is then used to justify all kinds of bigotry. These people also often claim they are the only correct people and everyone else is inferior. This is a problem!
Large, organized groups of people who believe they have the answers to the most difficult questions in the world, whose answers are based on nothing—are a big problem. Groups of people create power. And, the power of religions and the religious to control others is a huge problem. This is probably one of the biggest afflictions to effect humanity.
It’s not just the people! Unless you take the view that without the people, the religions wouldn’t exist in the first place; this circularity leaves you with nothing.
All I hear is blame. I am American, and though George W. Bush certainly does not represent me, I do take responsibility for the fact that others may have a negative impression of Americans because of his actions.
Could this issue of terrorism towards the West be more deeply seeded in the historical conflict between Islam and Christianity?
I have not heard one course of action that any of these scholars on your panel would recommend taking to curb this problem if Islamic radical terrorism. Could we end with some ideas?
Jason
Seattle, WA
Your guest says the media needs to be fair. News flash: It ain’t gonna happen; so what do you do? Blaming someone else does not solve the problem so how do you propose to fight inaccurate reporting?
Their is no doubt that this is a religious war.
Talha if from Cleveland, Ohio
America is not there to KILL MUSLIMS. That is absurd. America was trying to establish YOUR DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY. Just becuase none of you have backbones to stand up to your leaders and get what you want you turn your hatred towards America. America is nothing but open to all people. Maybe America shouldn’t be in Iraq, but to think that the only reason we are there is to destroy ISLAM, come on get over yourselves. Our government doesn’t give a damn about your Religion that is built on hate.
STOP BLAMING EVERYONE.
PLEASE SAY THIS ON AIR.
Moderate consensus does not help. There are ghastly people out there. We need a completely re defined UN like interference.
Islamism, Protestants or Catholics (omitted The Jews has they will always oppress in any forms believe systems that deviate from Jacob’s … Abraham’s… teaching) the mass media (hmmm wonder which group {dividend lovers} control the medias) propaganda is evil zing any believe system which does not fall inline with their core teaching therefore they do not seek corporation but confrontation in other world social harmony is tolerated as long as their believe system is not threaten (example the elimination of any biblical references or signs into the pubic sphere (forums) of influence has been eradicated over the last 10 years by the elected officials) Sunday is not longer a day for Family or Priers in America because their believe systems were been threatens in favor of others group, in other world elected official turned their back on God in the name of the Charted of Rights.
No common purposes for civilizations except for the Stock Markets Citizens of this New World Order array of hope was no more part of the world daily life.
Islamism terrorist (I rather call them the last freedom fighters for religions) understand that circulars states are immoral, inhuman & has a believe systems that threaten the Islamic states as their religion (morality& decencies for mankind) is a big part of their political system remind Westerners not so distant ago early 60’s (before Woodstock’s & the come of age of the baby boomers) religions figures were part of the decisions process.
If the biblical revelation comes to be,
I must conclude that God will have to rule with an Iron Fist if you think Islam is evil base on past history ; Rome , crusaders, Northern Ireland , Christianity is for from immune from been evil itself some others alternative have been cultivated for the last 40 years like freedump markets where utopians ideologies drive mankind to beastiality not divinity regardless of it authorities.
Knowing decisions are be made on behalf of a civilization threw divinity like characteristics would be reassuring, that is what differentiate circular states from God like states (Islamic State & the Resurge of the Orthodox Church in Russia).
As this New World Order & its Financial Systems along with the beastiality utopian ideologies of capitalism as the ultimate happiness in a box is disintegrating into the abyss, new ideas are(will) immerge, but the old forces of this New World Order , they do not to change their way of life.
Islam like earlier Christianity is still an infants, forces are tearing it apart as the old world order is dying & new forces are egger to replace it , like Rome fell as Christianity took its place into the new world as Islam will take it place into a new unknown world.
Like Christianity, Islam will make mistakes but in due course God will will always prevail over the world.
Islamic label as Terrorists , I disagree who are calling them Terrorists are the same people who once call them freedump fighters.
May God Bless this New World Order & Its financial systems,
In Only God I trust,
This conversation is, once again, maddening. WE have plenty of racism in the USA, but the only people in the US espousing the ideas being expressed on your show right now are only expressed on the fringe right.
Terrorism is NOT a “muslim problem.” There are plenty of Christian terrorists (ireland, Vasques), Hindo terrorists (India), and atheist terrorists (China in Tibet).
If a Muslim person chooses to wear their traditional clothes, it’s no different than anyone in Scotland wearing a kilt and THEIR traditional garb. There is no reason for someone to have to shave their faces and wear traditional western clothes – this is NOT a slam against the host country. How naieve. That’s the same thing that ignorant whites say here in the states when immigrants speak their native language. Every time Spanish is spoken, monolingual ignorant whites automatically assume that they are being talked about – how egocentric.
Get over these superficial issues, and get INTO the root causes of terrorism…….power, privilege, oppression, racism, religious bias.
You are only discussing these superficial issues precisely becase the REAL issues are too painful to address for WHITE people. You can;t even HEAR the realities of the Muslims in your own countries You can;t even think for one minutes that their outrage may be, in fact, totally legitimate.
Shameful.
Amy Potter,
Portland Oregon, USA
to those who say that violence is different from Islam, they should check records of suicide bombings and other sorts of violent crimes to see which nations record the greatest hits and which religions the pepetrators identifir\es shsmelesslly with
A large part of the problem is that Islam has not yet evolved to the point where religion is separated in the minds of its followers from statehood or the tribal nature of the Arab region. If a country with a Christian majority were invaded we would never hear someone calling all Christians to rise and defend “the land of Christianity” like we heard one of our guests presenting a thinly veiled justification for the violent insurgency in Iraq as defense of the “land of Islam”. But this is the nature of religious dogma rather than Islam itself (look at Northern Ireland and radical Jewish settlers). Islam happens to be responsible for the largest part of the pie of fundamentalism because of its position in the process of evolution of the three Abrahamic religions.
Ashraf Sewailam
Cairo, Egypt
The press did not report IRA terrorists as Catholic terrorists. But neither did the IRA call themselves The Catholic Freedom Fighters, or some such name. If they had the press would certainly have reported them as such. Much terrorism by Muslims identifies itself as Islamist and bring its reputation uponitself. The press,for all its faults, isn’t responsible for this
David
Auckland, New Zealand
Saying that all Muslims are the same is like saying all humans are the same. That is just absurd. Extreme views of any kind breed intolorance. Citizans of the world need to work at better understanding each other and our differences. Fear of the unknown or what you do not understand closes the doors of communication.
Muslims were killing each other far before Christopher Columbus ever left for America.
This show is a bad joke. Shame on you
Anon
Your guests are now making me sick. Sorry buddy, but 9/11 was due to people being so stupid, so insane, they killed over their religion.
I don’t like Iran’s policies but in no way would I, or any sane person, hijack iranian airliners and crash them into office buildings. You sir, obviously think that terrorism is justified. Nothing the US did caused 9/11. The Insanity and stupidity of people who are religious caused 9/11. Thank God the show is now over, I would puke hearing all the excuses, and the blame. This show is why religion needs to be wiped out.
The show summed up “it’s everyone’s fault except us!” we’re victims, yet blowing things up. If someoen blows something up, it’s the US’s fault, or Israel’s, or the media’s fault.
Disgusting.
I am disgusted by those who profess violence in the name of their “god”. Any belief that holds a justifiable violence clause is fundamentally flawed. In the true sense, both Christianity and Islam are non-violent beliefs. To think and act otherwise is just plain wrong. The general “Us V Them” attitude that I even detect in some of your guests shows that this problem can never be solved.
David in Victoria Australia
@ Jonelle
The problem with Muslims, is that “understanding” is a one way street. Non muslims are expected to understand and accomodate muslims. But muslims are not expected to understand or accommodate anyone else. In Saudi Arabia, they don’t bend over backwards to please religious minorities. In fact, other religions are banned. No more accomodations until Muslim nations start doing this. And if muslim nations, and islam is so great, why do so many muslims leave these nations, that happen to be third world nations? Could it be related that perhaps the religion is behind the third world nature of the country? Imagine if Saudi Arabia had no oil. It would be a dirt poor, third world nation. Nations like Israel have no resources, yet are first world, because they aren’t living in the 9th century.
Sorry, but Islam is the problem. need to live in the 21st century, not the 9th.
All that was said is the Muslims are too infantile to take care of their own affairs. Like a 5 yr old on a playground Muslims on the program blamed everyone else and invented new excuses.
How does murdering hostages in the Philippines have anything to do with Palestinians? Of course it does not but why waste a chance to lay more guilt upon a liberal West.
All the guests said today is Muslims are children deserving of a good spanking.
The problem of terrorism can only be dealt with, if the very muslims who committed 90% of the global terrorism, decided to choose an other medium of voicing their anger and frostration. the pope cannot leave rome, neither western leaders leave their respective capitals, to go and persuaded a “baby groom -to- adult trained” terrorist to renounce an act they have been inductrinated with, so they the very muslims need to preach tolerance, the right to live as a fundamental human right, and refusing safe haven for terrorist, then they will be able to curb terrorism. so the answer is, they (the muslim scholars, governments, religious leaders and even family members) have a major role to play to solve this problem.
Royston
freetown, sierra leone
@steve October 17, 2008 at 7:00 pm
Your guests are now making me sick.
I could not have said it better,
@Scott
These people also often claim they are the only correct people and everyone else is inferior.
What I see is the same thing from some people here who claim not to believe in any god. Every day someone is calling someone else stupid!
I am all for getting rid of religion. But do you really think that if there were no religions people would all come together in peace?
Just read all the posts this afternoon. There has been not much attempt to understand. Most of the posts fall into the blame category.
We can always find reasons to justify what our group is doing. Muslims justify Muslims, Jews justify Jews and Christians justify Christians and so on…
If there were no religions, we would justify wearing the color green against someone wearing the color black.
I say again, “People are the problem!”
People are the problem; not religion. If religion was the problem why is it that not every religious person commits crimes? It’s in the way people interpret their beliefs that is the problem. They are using their beliefs as validation for killing because they want rewards whatever those are for themselves.
I think Steve is confused between the root cause of the problem and what people are prepared to do about it. What you may do about it may not be appropriate which does not make your cause legitimate. The Palestinians, muslims or Christians, are both united and have the same cause which is to take back what Israel has taken from them. Both are in desperate situation and their freedom hijacked. Unfortunately, some muslims take their faith into the wrong hands by misusing their believe that it is ok to dies fighting for your land or your religion/God.
The problem with Muslims, is that “understanding” is a one way street.
Substitute the word Jew for the word Muslim in the statement above and the person who made that statement would be highly insulted.
How can we expect the Muslims not to be insulted?
Well, today’s show made me realize I shouldn’t hold my breath at any islamic reformation happening anytime soon. It was all blame, blame, nothing else. So long as muslims blame the west, israel, arab governments, for islamic terrorism, then there’s no chance terrorism will stop. Now the media as well?
I wish they had some balance, perhaps a guest that didn’t blame everyone except the terrorists for terrorism. Dissapointing, but not at all shocked this happened.
It does no good to give Israel a free pass from wrongdoing in the West if any significant fraction of the worlds one billion muslims decide that Israel is the source of the problem. The blow up any muslim who objects plan isn’t working either.
The west is losing whatever shreds of moral authority it had in the Islamic world with every day we occupy Iraq and Afghanistan. The US support of the repressive regime of Saudi Arabia isn’t helping either. It’ isn’t lost on the Islamic world that the 9-11 terrorists were Saudi nationals for whose crimes we kill Iraqis and Afghans.
We can yap all we want but the actions of the US prove their hypocrisy.
@ Selena
That’s too bad. It’s reality, understanding is a one way street when it comes to muslims and the west. Nobody “understands” jews becuase nobody fears Jews. All this “understanding” ijs based out of fear of muslims. “If I read up on the koran, and show how tolerant I am, maybe they won’t kill me” is the liberal thought pattern behind a lot of this. The same athiests in schools who raise holy hell if the pledge of allegiance has “under god” in it, make students read koranic verses in class..
it is a typical muslim reaction to blame everybody but themselves for the things that happen. the reason is the sad fact that the religion does not allow for self-reflection. it is either god’s will or god made me do that and this. i have worked with arabs and the entire mentality and thinking translates into work they do. something goes wrong and it was out of their control or somebody at work sabotaged them because of their background etc etc. buhuhuhu we are the poor persecuted people, we are the victims of the bad people of the west. stop crying and start self-assessing your modus opperandii.
@Fahad from Saudi Arabia
No we know what is taught in schools and Mosques in Saudi Arabia the home of Whabbiism and wellspring of Islamic terror.
Those Palestinian Christians who could fled a long time ago to prevent their children from being blown up by a diseased philosophy.
Israel took NOTHING from you. Not only is the land of Israel bought and paid for but when Israel gave the Gaza Garden the Israeli’s had built back to the Palestinian Muslims they turned it back into a toilet in one day.
How many Palestinian refugees has Saudi Arabia embraced and allowed into Saudi Arabia?
The Palestinians Muslims have had their freedom hijacked by Arab Muslims and no one else!!!
@ David in Australia
“In the true sense, both Christianity and Islam are non-violent beliefs. To think and act otherwise is just plain wrong.”
THANK YOU FOR SAYING THAT! I most certainly do not have any desire to hurt anyone simply because I have religious beliefs.
I think the problem with muslims is that they regard Islam as the sole truth, a universal one superior to any other religion, ought to be followed by everyone.
But what about christians, buddhists, etc? They are as religious as muslims. Yet nobody goes around preaching the supremacy of his religion. Everyone is much more tolerant. In a globalised world, much more tolerance has to be exercised because it’s impossible to fully understand or appreciate the “goodness” of every religion, and one’s actions could easily offend others. And if other religions are already acting, why not muslims?!
Muslims have exaggerated in their response to the Danish cartoons. I’m a devoted buddhist myself, and have seen many cartoons and jokes mocking Buddha (and for christians, Jesus). So what??
It’s my own belief, and i have my right to stick to it, and that trivial issue won’t stop me being a Buddhist. I’m sure many other buddhists and christians would hold the same view. Afterall, it was only meant for humour. So what’s so special when cartoonists come to Islam?
It’s the problem with Muslims (sorry..). If they want to be integrated into today’s world, they should stop believing (at least outside their mosques and homes) that Islam is supreme, and therefore has the right to dominate and influence every living soul on earth. Until then, the racial divide – of the whole world against muslims – only gets to grow wider.
selena in Canada,
That is an unfortunate argument, that so many absurdly cling to, over and over and over and over again—that belief is somehow the same as non-belief. This could not be further from the truth. Just apples and apples! Yeah right! I can believe in a unicorn and you don’t; and then we are allegedly on the same footing. How foolish.
The religious are the ones that need to meet the burden of poof. My saying I am not sure if god exists is very, very different from saying I believe in a religion and it is correct. This is dumb objectivity. Few ever go deep enough. They repeatedly make these bogus comparisons as if everyone just liked different colors. Well I don’t like any of the colors. I haven’t decided. There is no evidence. I have not posited anything which can be debated. I have put nothing up for sale. How can this be comparable to religious faith. Nonsense.
I am not America’s Next Top Model, I haven’t even tried out for the show.
@ Hsu
It’s in the nature of all religions, not just Islam, to think that they are right, and everyone else is wrong. Ask a christian, and they will tell you you are going to go to hell because you haven’t accepted Jesus.
You bring up a good point, and it shows how insecure muslims are in their beliefs. If they were secure, they wouldn’t care what others think, and wouldn’t get violent over every percieved slight. Also, if God is all powerful, a cartoon of Mohammed really can’t hurt his little feelings. His feelings can’t get hurt. Mohammed’s feelings can’t get hurt, becuase he’s been dead for a long time, and has no feelings.
Pink,
You must be kidding, Saudi Arabia is not a bastion of anti terrorism, but of
Wahhabist Islam, whose religious doctrine/politics spills over with intolerance of other religions
The Saudis’ ambivalence towards terrorism has not gone away. Money for foreign fighters and terror groups still pours out of the kingdom, but it now tends to be carried in cash by couriers rather than sent through the wires, where it can be stopped and identified more easily.
Ali Sa’d Al-Mussa, a lecturer at King Khaled University in Abha, protested: “I’m afraid that holding [extremist] views leads to earning a prize or, worse, a steady income.”
A National Commission for Relief and Charity Work Abroad, a nongovernmental organisation that was intended to regulate private aid abroad to guard against terrorist financing, has still not been created after it was trumpeted by the Saudi embassy in Washington.
School textbooks still teach the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, a notorious antiSemitic forgery, and preach hatred towards Christians, Jews and other religions, including Shi’ite Muslims, who are considered heretics.
Ali al-Ahmed, director of the Washington-based Institute for Gulf Affairs, said: “The Saudi education system has over 5m children using these books. If only one in 1,000 take these teachings to heart and seek to act on them violently, there will be 5,000 terrorists.”
O my God.. Now you are saying it clearly Muslims are terrorists. what can come next?!! what will we be tomorrow??? Maybe aliens ..
Well then let me ask these question: why you are always connecting us with terrorism? Are we the one who creates al qaida? let me tell you something that al qaida doesn’t represent Islam of anything, they do nothing of the Islamic principles.. not all those who carry al Qura’an are muslims.. there is no chapter in al Qura’an says that Muslims must kill other people
Then Why don’t you call what other people are doing: terrorism..like what Israel is doing in Palastine or what some American soliders are doing here in Iraq or other parts of the world, isn’t it terrorism? hey You just hurry to invent unreasonable justifications for their acts..like oh, it’s done in a wrong way or they’ve just missed their target …etc. but if a muslim says or does anything he’ll immediately be a terrorist. Why is all this hatred towrad muslims?
What an irony.. it is we muslims who are the first victims of terrorism.
@steve October 17, 2008 at 7:23 pm
it shows how insecure muslims are in their beliefs. If they were secure, they wouldn’t care what others think, and wouldn’t get violent over every percieved slight. Also, if God is all powerful, a cartoon of Mohammed really can’t hurt his little feelings.
—————————————————————————————————————–
Your logic is inescapable!! I love it!! Can I use it?
Wow, Zainab, wow.. I’m speechless here.
There’s really no hope. With victim mentalities like that, there’s no hope. Just we need to get off oil, and if muslims want to kill each other over fairy tales and blame everyone else for it, more power to them.
Let’s be fair: how often has anyone killed another with a bomb or a knife shouting “I do this in Jesus Name!!” Well, Muslims do so in Allah’s name constantly while detonating bombs and yet do not want Islam to be related to their act.How wierd.
Let’s not be ridiculous,no one is deceived about all this.Muslims are to be blamed for their brand of terrorism,same as any other faith who are similarly engaged in killing in their religion’s name.
@Scott
Let me try again.
If there were no religions in the world, the people who believe they are right would still enter into conflicts to prove they are better than the others.
The people who believe that they could be as wrong as the next guy would still live peacefully with their neighbors.
We really do have some peacefully people in all religions. In fact, the peaceful people far outweigh the non peaceful people, I could imagine.
@ Dan
I’m sure i’m not the first person to have thought of that, but you can use it if you want. God, if he exists, is all powerful. His feelings can be hurt, he can’t be offended, or he isn’t the all powerful deity people think he is. We keep on attributing human qualities to God.
I’m amazed at how the speakers on radio could have the hearts to sympathise with terrorists for the 9/11 attacks. Their showing of sympathy wasn’t so clear (how could they??) but at least they tried to defend their “brothers” (perhaps even “martyrs” in their eyes).
I’m also especially amazed with their British accents; that’s what Democracy is all about!! – everybody enjoy freedom of speech, opinion, etc. Is this possible in the Arab world? And if the speakers think the Quaran is so great, and Islamic states in general, why don’t they return to their homelands, wear veils, isolate themselves from the world and reject all Western democratic values.
Further, that makes me wonder why they ever come to the West in the first place. Is it to find trouble to every person enjoying the fruits of Democracy, so that they can try to downgrade the whole society’s worth by tainting it with their oppressed minds?? Is it to waste the taxpayers (non-muslims) money by seeking education there?
I truly am curious. Can any muslims educating in the UK or the USA, give me a clue?
Zainab ~ With respect many of these people committing terrorist acts are announcing their religion as the basis. Of course it is not you committing the acts but don’t you think there is some onus on the Muslim community to weed out such extremists?
@Vanessa
I would imagine that it is about as easy to weed out Muslim extremists as it is to weed out school shooters or religious cults in America.
Steve ~
“We keep on attributing human qualities to God.”
That is one of the most flawed beliefs that religion uses!
I’m amazed at how the speakers on radio could have the hearts to sympathise with terrorists for the 9/11 attacks. Their showing of sympathy wasn’t so clear (how could they??) but at least they tried to defend their “brothers” (perhaps even “martyrs” in their eyes).
I’m also especially amazed with their British accents; that’s what Democracy is all about!! – everybody enjoy freedom of speech, opinion, etc. Is this possible in the Arab world? And if the speakers think the Quaran is so great, and Islamic states in general, why don’t they return to their homelands, wear veils, isolate themselves from the world and reject all Western democratic values.
Further, that makes me wonder why they ever come to the West in the first place. Is it to find trouble to every person enjoying the fruits of Democracy, so that they can try to downgrade the whole society’s worth by tainting it with their oppressed minds?? Is it to waste the taxpayers (non-muslims) money by seeking education there?
I truly am curious. Can any muslims educating in the UK or the USA, give me a clue?
A short answer plus time: The point I was trying to make is that by using the term “Islamic terrorism” you perpetuate ignorance of what it means to be a Muslim, and in doing so you make yourself a vocal accomplice to any instance where a person has feared becoming a victim of violence for simply looking Mediterranian.
You also limit the scope of inquiry into the problem of terrorism. You ask where responsibility for Iraq and Afghanistan should end. That is a good question. But the answer would be better informed if you first asked where responsibility for armed conflict in those regions began.
Faith will play an important role in healing the wounds of terrorism, but those most responsible for the violence must be called to account for their actions, so that those actions may be identified and ceased immediately. A good start would be an international agreement that if any government or corporate entity is found to have sold or transferred any type of weapons to any government or entity known to have violated the rights of innocent people, that guilty party shall be immediately subject to the same conditions imposed on Germany and Japan following WWII.
If there is any justice in this world, this would require the immediate and complete disarmament of the United States, for starters. Personally, I would probably then become the benficiary of wealth not being wasted on violence around the world. But if the US people have any sense of justice, they will also see the truth and vote instead to elect leaders with the REAL courage to stand for what is right and say “YOU CAN’T HAVE”* that wealth anymore.
* paraphrase of former Vice Presidential candidate Winona LaDuke.
They will then take everything we were willing to spend on weapons and war, and they will take even more than that, and they will give it away proportionately to responsible parties in places where weapons the US is responsible for have caused the most harm.
And I will not feel that I have been made to suffer the least on account of it.
Is there a “pyschological investment” in respect to actions that might be taken to to reinforce beliefs of oneself and of others?
I am already half dead missing out on this sumptuous debate. I am amused but not surprise by the invectives been heaped out against Muslims in generality. As if Muslim cleric across the globe where not aloud with their condemnation of terrorism. Terrorism is a globe crisis that requires us all immense input and resources to have it thrash out. It is prejudicious to criticize all Muslims for terrorism.
If you want to see how this war on terror dehumanizes people watch this CBC documentary.
http://www.cbc.ca/documentaries/docplayer_doczone.html?id=893846772
7th Century Islamic Doctrine might seem moribund to some but it is by far better that present day sodomism and nudism.
Re: 182 Hsu Thar. October 17, 2008 at 7:19 pm
My views on the issue of:
>Depicting the Prophet Mohammed
Based on whatever knowledge I have of the religion of Muslims; the Prophet Mohammed discouraged or forbade images of himself. I believe he did it for a very simple reason! He knew that his image(s) would be used, at a later date, to collect money on behalf of the religion.
The same thing happened & is happening in Hinduism! Go to any Hindu temple and see the number of donation boxes. At least one box per deity/statue! As a Hindu, I ask myself, why not just one donation box for the whole temple?!
Buddha saw the way in which the priestly class of Hinduism was exploiting uneducated people and making religion into a business! He preached against it. In other words, Buddha pointed out the flaws which had developed in Hinduism. As a Hindu do I thus, dislike the Buddha or Buddhists? NOT at all!
Going back to the issue of images of the Prophet Mohammed: The Prophet Mohammed definitely did NOT require the killing of anyone who tried to depict him! THAT was a corruption of his message created by the priestly class of Muslims to garner power over the uneducated masses in their own lands or ultimately exploitation of the ordinary people!
@ Sheikh
That’s funny that “God” designed people who were born without clothes on. Perhaps babies should have been born fully clothed? Yes, there’s nothing like a healthy loathing of the human body to incredibly mess yourself up with.
@ Sheikh
By that logic it’s better in your opinion to kill a homosexuals then to hug them.
selena in Canada,
I agree, the peaceful among the religious are preferable to the ones that aren’t. But this doesn’t change the inherent danger of the collective power of religion in general. Religion creates a structure which can often make it easier for larger scale violence, because it has the ability to group people together in a collective ideological mass, and this mass can quickly become dangerous, especially when it meets no burden of proof. This mass is in no way commensurate to atheists or agnostics who have no ideological ties to each other and no belief system.
Even the non-violent faithful are a notch above the non-believers, by their simple membership in the group.
If there was no religion (as you present) or similar architectures to organize people into ideological masses, the danger of a contagious collective violence would be less. Unless you think the individual occurrences of terrorism in the middle east are unrelated. Maybe we would find new ways to embark on campaigns of violence, but even so, it doesn’t speak to the current perils of religion.
Sheikh ~
“7th Century Islamic Doctrine might seem moribund to some but it is by far better that present day sodomism and nudism.”
Like you there are many things in this world I don’t like or agree with but I think you are wrong! I 100% believe that we all have a right to our own privacy and beliefs and there is never a valid reason for killing, hurting or oppressing another human because you don’t agree with a belief system or like the way an individual leads their life.
Re: 182 Hsu Thar. October 17, 2008 at 7:19 pm
My views on the issue of:
>Depicting the Prophet Mohammed in Cartoons.
As a Hindu I personally dislike lampooning ANY of the Prophets. At the same time I am NOT going to advocate violence if the Prophet of my religion was represented in a cartoon. My rationale for this is very simple.
ALL of the Prophets tried to make humanity see that if we have to live in a civilised way (as opposed to jungle law) there are certain rules of behaviour, morality, responsibility towards our spouses & children, and so on; which we have to follow for the stability of society. Since wars have been a part human (& ape history) from the time of our hunter-gatherer forefathers there is always some mention of war in every religion.
But saying that the Prophet of a particular religion commanded people to kill for so-and-so reason is an abomination!
If we have to lampoon or make cartoons of anyone, then we should make cartoons of the priestly classes of a religion! THEY are the corrupters & exploiters of the religion! NOT THE PROPHETS!
Sorry, but religious people tend to be more less tolerant, and more hateful, than non religious people. Sheikh, I don’t give two, you know whats, about how gay or straight people have sex. Worry about yourself. I don’t care how you dress, unless you are very overweight and are wearing revealing clothes. If you don’t like how they’re dressed, then look away. Sorry, but how people have sex and how they dress are nothing in comparison to all the deaths due to the stupidity known as religion.
Sheikh has a right to his belief but he has no right to inflict that belief anywhere outside his mosque, neighborhood, city, county, state or country.
If his people want to live in ignorance and they cannot inflict that on anyone else who cares what he believes.
It is only when he inflicts his beliefs on others that we rise up.
Jews have certain beliefs but they do not inflict them upon others. They merely illuminate the issue and let the person make an independent decision.
I guess that Islam is so weak that they cannot take a chance that someone would make an independent decision to walk away from living like a barbarian.
Maybe that is why the murder anyone who converts.
Lubna – 17 Oct 06.35
“There is no compulsion in religion”
The continued emphasis by Muslim and non-Muslim apologists for Islam on a single verse — “There is no compulsion in religion” — is permitted not only because their Infidel audience has no idea either about what is said relevantly elsewhere, in hundreds of places, in the Qur’an and Hadith, and not only because they are unaware of the doctrine of abrogation or “naskh,” but because they are also unaware of the precise meaning that is given to that phrase “there is no compulsion in religion” by Muslim jurisconsults. If they did look into it, they would find that the “obvious” meaning of the words — that is, the meaning that we Infidels choose to endow that phrase with — is not what Muslim scholars mean at all. They mean that in the end one cannot force deep belief on people, though one can force them to comply outwardly, even on pain of death. And that is what Islam is in the business of doing: forcing outward compliance, on pain of punishment that may well include, has often included, death.
The behaviour of Muslims in 1350 years towards non-Muslim lands and peoples they have conquered, by force or otherwise, has been the offer of three possibilities: death, conversion, and, at least to those who can be classified as ahl al-kitab or “people of the book,” permanent status as dhimmis, with a host of political, economic, and social disabilities
And that succumbing, that yielding, demonstrates perfectly the “compulsion in religion” that Islam demands, whatever naive and unschooled interpretation of 2.256 any Infidel chooses to give it. Muslims know better.
When attacks abound it affects everybody and not just the Muslims. So we all need to talk…
@Sheikh Kafumba Dukuly
October 17, 2008 at 7:59 pm,
what the hell is wrong with nudism? If somebody wants to be a nudist then so be it. If somebody prefers anal-sex so be it.
Such statements are exately the reason why I hate and dipise religion. if you want to belive in a sky fairy all nice and well, but don’t ram your believes down my throat.
It was once expressed in an interview that women want to be taken care of. Maybe that explains the appeal of Islam for women despite being treated worse than a captive barnyard animal.
Islam means submission whereas Israel means to argue with. Submission never makes one stronger or advances an argument. Submission simply means that evil rises to the top to dominate.
It is a good thing for those that disagree to talk but that presupposes one is an adult and not hell bent upon blaming everyone else for their failings or the failings of their belief system.
wow, I just got to listen to the rebroadcast. I will defend to the bitter end people’s rights and the lack of understanding of other cultures. However these people were unapologetic and not helpful at all. They were really clueless to what the root causes of these issues they are discussing.
For instance, every imam in every mosque around the world should have been preaching tolerance and to ignore the Danish cartoon. In western cultures, such as the Danish society, free speech is cherished above all, and standing up to ridicule is considered a right of passage and confirmation. When Muslim members are also members of such cultures, it is imperative that you explain to them the “when in Rome” concept. There is a double standard because there is a double perspective. In the US as well as many of the western countries, such a reaction would not be unleashed if it were Jesus being satirized.
A good question could have been, “Can you think of any other events where Jesus, Buddha, or other profit cause such a reaction?” See it is kind of self defeating if somebody says, “Islam is full of hateful extremist and they are so quick to anger that they are a danger to society” and then members of the Muslim community go on and affirm the assertion by Turing to violence and hate mongering.
Yet, all I heard was these people try to blame everybody else for their problems. Until the moderate average Muslim accept that they must police their culture, it is going to be hard for me to get people to believe me when I say, “99% of Muslims are no differnt then you and me.”
66 Shaun in Halifax October 17, 2008 at 5:28 pm
Here’s a practical question I have. How come the Imams and Priests don’t like people questioning things?
In my experience, those scholars who have problems with people asking how and why are egotistical in the sense that they are unsure of themselves and need to put up a blustery front to make up for what they feel they lack in knowledge. In general, our more learned scholars welcome questions. The kinds of questions that receive cold shoulders from the broader world of Islamic scholarship are those that come from a background of stubborn rebelliousness. For example, there is a contingent of Muslims who reject the system of the derivation of Islamic law from the Islamic source-texts. They enjoy posing “questions” as a way of raising discord among the scholars and as a way of challenging the scholars into a debate on the question of the validity of the system of derivation of Islamic law. Such people have earned the cold shoulders that they receive.
79 Shaun in Halifax October 17, 2008 at 6:01 pm
And I checked the Qur’an and “Unto me my rleigion, and unto you yours” didn’t look like “Unto me my rleigion, and unto you yours”* Unless they’re an infidel. Then by all means, kill the heathen.
Shaun, could you elaborate on what you have read in the Qur’an? I have found that the passages discussing violence have a historical context that indicates permissibility only of defencive actions, and an underlying dedication to peace that is achieved through social justice. What is your reading experience of the Qur’an?
Re: 7th Century vs.2008
I don’t think living life today appropriately means applying literal translations from the past on aspects of everyday life. I don’t believe that it is anyone’s personal interest to go around wearing clothes that advertise their business. However, since I am not their mother, I won’t tell them how to dress or ask them to cover up.
With regards to homosexuals, it’s not my place to judge someone else. I don’t agree but that is between them and God. As a matter of fact, I would ask them to PLEASE leave me out of it completely.
Maybe there should be a progression of moving with the times and remaining true to some basic beliefs. Society progresses and people need to realize that there will be variations of “normal”. It’s not right to impose your beliefs on someone else.
My sister is evangelical and went along to an inter-faith pow-wow organised by the Bishop.
As an icebreaker, the delegates had to make a short presentation on the theme of “penguins”.
The Sikhs started with an interesting talk on “How the brave animals battle against predators and the harsh weather”.
The C of E speaker was apologetic: “Reaching out to Gay Penguins in a very real sense”.
The Jewish man was witty and entertaining: Keeping Penguins at Home for Fun and Profit”.
The Muslim delegates: “Have Penguins got Islamophobia ?”
Terrorism is the use of violence to drive extreme fear into perceived opponents by individuals or parties or states. It is not the prerogative or symbol of any particular religion as such although, in the present context, association with Islam has been highlighted after the 9/11 tragedy. Deeper reflection is perhaps yet needed as to why it happened. The invasion of Iraq first and later Afghanistan has further mired ‘ cause and effect’ relationship ever enlarging the vicious downward spiral into further bombings and worsenning violence while the original cause has been lost sight of. Presumably a solution involves not only muslims but also those parties and countries associated with/by the 9/11 tragedy to find a way out of the problem rather than keeping the state of terror alive and flickering worldwide for ever.
@ myself at 7:51 pm: Of course, this will never work if we forget “the eye of newt.”
*recontexted quotation of a character from DOONESBURY, commenting at a press conference on Reaganomics.
It’s been tried many time’s before and all has failed, most terrorist attacks are conducted against civilised Western countries, therefore should be dealt with by civilised Western countries.
Education is a key point here, most of these terrorists are breed from young school years, a stop on all Muslim school’s in Western countries should be enforced, any child entering a Western country for education must study the standard schooling of that state, when we look at Britain with it’s open door policy Muslims flood the country, their children are educated at a muslin school they live in a muslin area, they abuse the laws of the host country, they don’t intergate in to English society, don’t learn the language, then commit terrorist acts against the host country or use it as a base to strike other countries, it’s about time Britain cleaned up it’s act and cleaned up it’s country.
WOW.. Steve, are you speechless?!!!
Again you are talking about muslims killing each other.. (though it’s not only muslims who are killing each other).. but anyway you hate Islam very much I don’t kow why, Have you passed a bad experience withIslam ?!! or whatever.. you can’t jugde Islam according to some persons’ actions.. if so then I have many very bad situation with people but i don’t judge the whole world according to them.
well let me ask you a question Do you believe that if there is no religion, killing will be no more??
@Venessa
You’re right , but not all those who are saying “we are muslims” are really Muslim, if they are acting against Islam then they are not Muslims at all.
Again no one answer my question:
WHO CREATES AL QAIDA?
yours truly
Jennifer and others, who think similar,
In the early days of Islam they were the forebears and purveyors of what became to be known and understood as modern medicine and such recognisable aspects of the current accepted medical environment all across the world in practically every case. This was prior to the Greeks and the Hippocratic Oath that all those who practice medicine in present times have to the best of their ability to abide by.
In many ways the modern Moslem has been marginalised by current history and perceived history. We in the West and the world in general have a great deal to be thankful for and indeed grateful to the faith of Islam.
I strongly urge you to look up http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/331/7531/1486?eaf
titled: How Islam changed medicine an article written in the highly respected BMJ the British Medical Journal.
There is a very considerable difference of position to those who are Sunni as opposed to those who are Shia and it is not easily understood by most, particularly us in the West. But in the main we simply label them as Radicals, Fundamentalists, Religious Extremists and the easiest and most dismissive of its kind in our current political climate, Terrorists. There are religious fundamentalists of all creeds and faiths the world over, Zionists, Hindus, Moslem and indeed Christians that are just very careful they way they hide their covert activity in many countries across the world. Just one example recently brought to light are Christian missionaries from America forcefully trying to impose the fundamentalist doctrine and view upon the Vietnamese, with the support of big money and finance directly and actively supported via US business concerns. This is extremely surreptitious behaviour unreported by the vast majority of any media let alone that of the West. There has been a backlash against this by those who oppose its insidious methodology and brainwashing of the poor and uneducated Vietnamese people. Please see an example of what is being done in order to promote the most radical form of Christian fundamentalist doctrine on a global basis via all major US institutions.
Don’t take my word for it. This can be backed up by eye witness reports from many countries and situations. It just doesn’t get talked about and even worse is never examined or reported via the mainstream media, and for the benefit of BRYAN that includes the BBC. So you can’t label it as a COMMY LEFT WING AGENDA upon them this time. I urge you to look at this information and come to your own conclusions as to whether everything you see and hear inside western media is anything like anywhere approaching the truth at all. http://www.nhne.org/news/NewsArticlesArchive/tabid/400/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/3843/Default.aspx
Is the title and question this debate is posing so open and clear cut in relation to solely Moslems? I think not.
Hi Matthew,
Can you just tell us if the Christian missionaries in Vietnam were using terrorism ? You know – car bombs, suicide bombs, flying passenger jets into office buildings ?
Violence ?
Maybe even just robust language ? Strong words ?
I think terrorism in general, is not an islamic issue. It is more or less a global one in which muslim and western countries are both involved. There are muslim groups that are terrorists and radicals who are supported by the western countries politicians basically, their intelligences administrations. Therefore, in order to tackle terrorism and to uproot it, the world community should come up with a common strategy for this common problem. I can confidently say that there are elements in the western countries that financially support terrorists groups either in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq and so forth. and also, lack of a common international strategy to tackle terrorism makes the problem more complicated. For example, in Afghansitan, the British forces do not want to help tackle narcotics and opium eradication with the Afghan government. They claim that is an Afghan issue, however, it is not. They are here to help the Afghan people and the Afghan Government. Most of the people in Afghanistan believe that the British forces want the Taliban use this opportunity (Opium Cultivation and Trafficking) to feed themselves in order to continue their fight against the government of Hamid Karzai. It means that they willingly but indirectly help terrorism themselves!
Therefore, it is important that the world come up with a common strategy for this common problem. Terrorism is a collective problem that needs collective efforts to be put to eradicate it.
Sohail
Afghanistan
Zainab,
You said “there is no chapter in al Qura’an says that Muslims must kill other people”
I must disagree:
Bukhari:V4B52N220 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘I have been made victorious with terror.’”
Qur’an 8:12 “I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle.”
Qur’an 8:57 “If you gain mastery over them in battle, inflict such a defeat as would terrorize them, so that they would learn a lesson and be warned.”
Ishaq:326 “If you come upon them, deal so forcibly as to terrify those who would follow, that they may be warned. Make a severe example of them by terrorizing Allah’s enemies.”
Qur’an 8:67 “It is not fitting for any prophet to have prisoners until he has made a great slaughtering in the land.”
Ishaq:588 “When the Apostle descends on your land none of your people will be left when he leaves.”
Qur’an 3:150 “Soon We shall strike terror into the hearts of the Infidels, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority: their abode will be in the Fire!”
Ishaq:395 “Muslims, if you listen to the unbelievers you will retreat from the enemy and become losers. Ask Allah for victory and do not retreat, withdrawing from His religion. ‘We will terrorize those who disbelieve. In that way I will help you against them.’”
and there sre many more in the Qur’an inspiring jihad terrorism.
@Matthew
I find religious evangelism of any sort repugnant, however I don’t see how that is that relevant to the question about Islamist terrosim.
Islam’s contribution to modern medicine is great, but also does not relate to the current problem of terrorists among their ranks today. Ancient contributions to medicine does not make it ok to carry out suicide bombings today.
O , Alec Paterson, that’s what i’m talking about..you’re misled.. you must read tafseer (explanation of Qura’n) and most preferably read Tafseer Al-Mizan to know the reasons of the revelation of any chapter of Qura’an. It’s not enough that you read al Qura’n . For example the chapters you’re mentioned:
Qur’an 8:12 “I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle.”
this Surah came in the occasion of in the battle of Badr the first battle in Islam between Muslims and kafirs of Makkah (you can read about this battle in any Islamic book) or just go to
http://collectionofislamicebooks.blogspot.com/2008/09/17th-ramzan-battle-of-badr.html
Every Surah has its meaning, it’s true, there are many surahs urging Muslims to fight kafirs, but each is linked to its occasion. We can’t just read the chapter and expalin it by your ownself, moreover we can’t just read the word jihad, then we go to kill people like this.. No NO it’s not like this AT ALL .. there must be a reason for jihad, and there must be a fatoah (legal opinion).
Well then if those terrorists are really muslims why on earth are they killing other muslims? BELIEVE ME THEY ARE NOT MUSLIMS. Islam is very different from what they’re believing in.. they only believe in money and blood.
yours truly
@Alec
I can find just as many or more quotes from the Bible to support war and mayhem. Is that why followers of the Bible don’t mind dropping bombs on innocents and even have a word for it… collateral damage?
Message to all:
We can change this debate into religion comparisons and pretend that we all know a lot about other religions or focus on the original debate which is; is it up to muslims to solve islamists terrorism. To solve any problem you have to dig down to its root cause(s). So the question is what is the root cause(s) of islamist terrorism? Are those, what so called islamist, born like this or does Islam really tell them to be terrorists? Of course the answer is no to both questions. So rather than get into endless useless debate driven by race or religion bayous it is better to drill down to why would a cretin terrorist group do what they do. Stay away from stereotyping it does not help at all. If we take the same attitude i see here about muslims or Arabs then i would say that every black man or Hispanic in the USA is a drug dealer or a criminal which of course is not the case at all.
Sohail,
Don’t be afraid to be specific and name the western intelligence agencies and undercover operations involved, namely CIA, MI5, MI6, SAS, SBS etc and all the “Black Ops” organisations who enter a situation to deliberately subvert the local populace, and cause conflict within the ranks. This is a quite deliberate and calculating policy by agencies of the West. It is carried out in order to sow confusion, discontent, disillusionment and confrontation within communities and societies in areas of desired American control and influence. A so called benign friend of the honourable, lawful, just and free can so easily instigate method and practice so as to set neighbour upon neighbour. A friend to the world, don’t make me laugh!
Seeing as you come from Afghanistan you have more right than most to enter comment here whether they wish to accept it or not. Many people realise more than you know. It’s just a mainly unspoken of subject and not deemed of sufficient interest to the likes of us mere mortals and lesser minions. Just suffocate us with 24 Hour TV, never ending Hollywood fodder and film channels, sports saturation beamed at us all the time, mindless soap operas, shopping channels, unfettered drinking and eating habits and gorge ourselves upon material goods and services. CONSUME, CONSUME, CONSUME AT ALL COSTS BEFORE ITS ALL TO LATE AND THE NEVERENDING SUPPLY OF ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING SUDDENLY RUNS OUT. I know fresh water supplies are diminishing at a rapid pace, so let’s find an excuse to have a war about that and go and control something else. BUT OF COURSE ALL DONE IN THE WHOLESOME NAME OF FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY YOU KNOW! WHAT MADE YOU THINK ANY DIFFERENT? That’ll stop the INTERFERING BAS-ARDS ASKING TOO MANY PROBING QUESTIONS, AND SO WE CAN CONTINUE AS NORMAL BY CALLING THEM NUTCASES AND CONSPIRACISTS AND CARRY ON POKING OUR NOSES WHEREEVER AND WHENEVER WE SO CHOOSE AND DAMN THE CONSEQUENCES!
I think it was your Winston Churchill who used to say its better to jaw jaw than war war. It is not only Muslims. It take two to tango.
I am an Orthodox Christian. Everytime I had through my /meditation moment, or after I visited a church, I always have a strong feeling of love and compassion that I tend to be nice to everybody around me or to strangers in the street. My friend who is a Muslim told me that everytime after he vistied a mosque he has a strong desire, the strength to find his enemies do something with them or kill them. I pitty this friend of mine. There must be something wrong with his belief system!
Selena,
Violent Biblical passages are irrelevant to the question of whether Islam is violent.
Violent passages in the Bible certainly do no amount to a standing order to commit violence against the rest of the world. Unlike the Quran, the Bible is a huge collection of documents written by different people at different times in different contexts, which allows for much greater interpretative freedom. The Quran, on the other hand, comes exclusively from one source: Muhammad. It is through the life of Muhammad that the Quran must be understood, as the Quran itself says. His wars and killings both reflect and inform the meaning of the Quran. Furthermore, the strict literalism of the Quran means that there is no room for interpretation when it comes to its violent injunctions. As it is through the example of Christ, the “Prince of Peace,” that Christianity interprets its scriptures, so it is through the example of the warlord and despot Muhammad that Muslims understand the Quran.
@ Balthazar
October 18, 2008 at 3:16 pm
My friend who is a Muslim told me that everytime after he vistied a mosque he has a strong desire, the strength to find his enemies do something with them or kill them.
There is no Mosque established around the world for the purpose of propagating Islam that preached hate and the act of violence. If a middle easterner has problem with his neighbor for killing his family and decides to revenge, he is not in a jihad for Islam but for his own selfish emotion. It is really pity for people to generalized the action of few violent-happy persons to a universal religion.
@ Alec
If you can’t see God as warlord, then I guess there is not much else to say. 🙂
still world body likeunited nations hasnotclearly defined what TERRORISM is?onlyafter that who will ring thebell questionarises or else it will bebeatinginthebushlike as it isatpresent .all aresearching foranswers vaguely withoutidentifying the key issues eg here terror ?
thats why this debate sprang up ?totiethe bellaround terror cat muslims are the bestbet?is it ..
theanswer is a definite NO. its theresponsibility of thewhole human mankind represented byunited nationsand its membercountryduties toputthe bell around thisterroristcat menace .
FOR IT FIRST DEFINE WHAT TERRORISM IS?
Re:
“To solve any problem you have to dig down to its root cause(s). So the question is what is the root cause(s) of islamist terrorism”
I think it is people who twist their religion to suit their own means whether it’s having rewards or obtaining world domination for their faith; trying to carry out their views of of how the world is supposed to work according to their religion. They either misinterpret scriptures or else are not able to progress in society without letting their religion play a more significant role than it should.
Fahad@Saudi
No one has said that all Muslims are terrorists. Bin Laden uses the Koran for the justification of his actions.
As for ‘‘socio-economic’’ causes we need to remember that none of the hijackers of 9/11 were poor, illiterate or underprivileged. Many of them have abandoned their repressive home countries for comfortable, middle-class lives in Europe and the United States but were so consumed by hatred of the West that they were prepared to die for it.
Moderate Muslims need to ask why ,despite all their oil, even rich Muslim countries are unable to create just and enlightened societies instead of ones that produce disaffected, desperate youths who are prepared to give their lives to kill innocent people. If the West is such a terrible place and America Satan incarnate then why do so many Muslims choose to migrate to cities like New York and London? Why are they not happy to live bigoted, blinkered lives in Riyadh and Jeddah?
But we hear a litany of complaints. It was the fault of the West that Islam was being labelled a terrorist religion, the fault of the West that most Muslim rulers were despots, the fault of the West that political issues had been allowed to fester, the fault of the West that Muslim countries had not progressed economically and the fault of the West that Osama bin Laden had got created. In vain I searched to hear one voice that would admit that there must be something deeply wrong in Islamic societies that they had bred the sort of hatred that created so much senseless violence. Just an explanation, for instance, for why the Buddhas of Bamiyan were smashed to bits without one Islamic country intervening. I did not hear it.
I think it is people who twist their religion to suit their own means whether it’s having rewards or obtaining world domination for their faith; trying to carry out their views of of how the world is supposed to work according to their religion.
Yes, exactly like Christianity has been doing for two thousand years.
I suspect that the roots of Islamic terrorism can be traced back to the Crusades. The question is: do we have the courage to look that far back?
Which Surah says what?
Which Surah says what in what context?
To what extent have the writings in the Quran been corrupted by people or mullahs during the time period of its existence?
We can discuss and argue these questions till:
-The cows come home
-Pigs fly over the moon or
-Everyone is blue in the face.
Let’s not waste time and energy. The Muslims had better understand one thing very clearly – if every one who is not a Muslim decides that enough is enough and attacks innocent Muslims or terrorising Muslims there won’t be any place for the Muslims to hide. It would be in the interest of Muslims to understand that they had better rein in their diatribe against the world. The world has had enough of being called kaffirs, infidels and whatever. It has also had enough of the despicable and cowardly acts of terrorism carried out by Muslims.
Muslims will not be able to say that they were not warned.
@ Selena
People can twist anything they want to bend to their beliefs including religion. Why so eager to bring up Christianity? I thought the topic of this discussion was Islam? Do you believe that Christianity causes Islamic terrorists?
@ King Of The Apes,
Sikhs movement dont have any issues with Pakistan, Only Govt of India is the Govt of the world that attack over HOLLY GOLDEN TEMPLE of Siks, this is why PM INDRA GHANDI assesnated by Sikha.
This is the only Pakistan did never support to Sikh’s uprising by that time, iinfact SIKHS DESERVE INDEPENDANCE IN SHAPE OF “KHALISTAN”.where they can live in peace without any harm in there religious practice.
May I ask how do you classify, Roman Wars, Holocust,Colonyism, Lawrance Of Arabia, Irash Libration Army, Isrieli attacks over Phalistanian refugee camps & Iraq Libration, dont you think these are roots of terrorism.
I think a response to terrorism may not understand as terrorism, a reflection of injustice is very clear in Terrorism. Fact is this Arab Nation dont even Know how to operate a gun before Lawrance of Arabia & Jewish Malishia migration from Europe to Middle East.
We need burden of proof in Terrorism case so then satisfactory Justic may be served, by the way we need to prove our sincearity with world peace & elemination of terrorism as we notice a gap between public & Govt policy.
One cannot get to the heart of Islamic terrorists by sticking to the belief that what makes them terrorists is somehow differnt from what makes someone of another religion a terrorist, or even someone not of any religion a terrorist.
To make an example of one religion is skirting the issue that human beings, not religions, are the cause of conflict. Religions are simply used as an excuse for leaders to entice people to engage in wars and conflict.
Christians have been just as eager as Muslims to do what they believe their God wills them to do. Terrorism will always be the fate of humans as long as we believe our side is better than the other side.
Christians have their good people and thy have their bad people just like any other group.
Selena,
Allah may be a warlord, as defined by his prophet Muhammed
According to the warlord version of Islam from Medina, Allah’s commands express his arbitrary will and do not express a universal moral law that lines up with his character or with his nature. It is Allah’s will that makes a thing right or wrong. One must learn by rote the things Allah declared by fiat (let it be done)to find out what is right or wrong. Reason and conscience are of no help in understanding arbitrary law that demands perfunctory obedience.
However, Muslims who concentrate on the Meccan verses might argue that Allah is a person. Muslim Sufi mystics have a very personal concept of Allah.
The Koran and the Bible present ideas about God (especially about His character) that are so diametrically opposed that any reasonable observer would conclude that each book refers to a distinct deity.”
@ 244 Syed Hasan Turab. October 18, 2008 at 7:04 pm
“Sikhs movement dont have any issues with Pakistan,” (sic)
WHAT???!!! The Sikhs aren’t a movement. Sikhs are people who belong to the religion called Sikhism.
Do you know how Sikhism evolved as a religion? Briefly:
The eldest son or the most able-bodied son of Hindu families became a warrior to defend India against the barbaric hordes of Mughals (Muslims). So the Sikhs were Hindus defending Hindustan from attacking Muslims. Later the baptising of these men, the five K’s and the concept of Khalsa came in. Just Google and read before you talk. The State of Punjab in India is the only State with hardly any Muslims. Some Sikhs even today, (in 2008!) will kill a Muslim on sight! (Try to search the BBC archives for the interview (a few years ago) of a 90 year old Sikh farmer who fought during the partition of India and Pakistan. He said very clearly: Even if I see a Muslim today I will kill him!)
The IRA was fighting the domination by the Protestant English of the Catholic Irish. That and the Roman wars etc. etc. are NOT the topic of discussion.
In any case two wrongs do not make a right! The issue here is Muslim terrorism. Don’t try to justify it. It is cowardly and reprehensible. You will get the comeuppance soon.
The religion which has come after Islam has already prophesised the widespread slaughter of Muslims by ALL non-Muslims. Focus on that!
We all have a moral obligation to look out for the welfare of all others, at least within our means. To assert that the terrorists are a muslim problem is to wash our hands of the issue and ignore the fact that we can be killed if we ignore the issue.
The other question would be “Are muslims the only terrorists?” It seems to me that terrorism is running rampant throughout the world and any body of people that wants to assert themselves onto some other uses terror tactics-meaning that simply because the US is more developed in weapons and tasctics and therefor able to kill more people than anyone else does not give us any immunity from the label. To the 10 year old Iraqi child huddled in the rubble our army must seem pretty terrifying.
226 sohail October 18, 2008 at 10:04 am
There are muslim groups that are terrorists and radicals who are supported by the western countries politicians basically, their intelligences administrations.
assalamu `alaykum, baradar:
I am not sure that this means that the US government is supporting terrorists. I see the situation as being similar to the police wiretapping a lady who works on the streets so that they can bring down an arms-distributing or drug-dealing gang.
I share your concern, though, of course.
234 Balthazar October 18, 2008 at 3:16 pm
My friend who is a Muslim told me that everytime after he vistied a mosque he has a strong desire, the strength to find his enemies do something with them or kill them. I pitty this friend of mine. There must be something wrong with his belief system!
Selena,
I see you mention the Crusades.
Well what about them? Get your facts!
While the Crusades were certainly bloody, they are more accurately understood as a belated Western response to centuries of jihad than as an unprovoked, unilateral attack. Muslim rule in the Holy Land began in the second half of the 7th century during the Arab wave of jihad with the conquests of Damascus and Jerusalem by the second “rightly-guided Caliph,” Umar. After the initial bloody jihad, Christian and Jewish life there was tolerated within the strictures of the dhimma and the Muslim Arabs generally permitted Christians abroad to continue to make pilgrimage to their holy sites, a practice which proved lucrative for the Muslim state. In the 11th century, the relatively benign Arab administration of the Holy Land was replaced with that of Seljuk Turks, due to civil war in the Islamic Empire. Throughout the latter half of the 11th century, the Turks waged war against the Christian Byzantine Empire and pushed it back from its strongholds in Antioch and Anatolia (now Turkey). In 1071, Byzantine forces suffered a crushing defeat at the Battle of Manzikert in what is now Eastern Turkey. The Turks resumed the jihad in the Holy Land, abusing, robbing, enslaving, and killing Christians there and throughout Asia Minor. They threatened to cut off Christendom from its holiest site, the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem, rebuilt under Byzantine stewardship after it was destroyed by Caliph Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah in 1009.
It was in this context of a renewed jihad in the Middle East that the Roman Pope, Urban II, issued a call in 1095 for Western Christians to come to the aid of their Eastern cousins (and seems to have harbored the hope of claiming Jerusalem for the Papacy after the Great Schism with Eastern Christianity in 1054). This “armed pilgrimage,” in which numerous civilians as well as soldiers took part, would eventually become known years later as the First Crusade. The idea of a “crusade” as we now understand that term, i.e., a Christian “holy war,” developed years later with the rise of such organizations as the Knights Templar that made “crusading” a way of life. It worth noting that the most ardent Crusaders, the Franks, were exactly those who had faced jihad and razzias for centuries along the Franco-Spanish border and knew better than most the horrors to which Muslims subjected Christians. At the time of the First Crusade, the populations of Asia Minor, Syria, and Palestine, though ruled by Muslims, were still overwhelmingly Christian. The “Crusading” campaigns of the Western Christian armies were justified at the time as a war liberating the Eastern Christians, whose population, lands, and culture had been devastated by centuries of jihad and dhimmitude. Conquering territory for God in the mode of jihad was an alien idea to Christianity and it should not be surprising that it eventually died out in the West and never gained ascendancy in the East.
Following the very bloody capture of Jerusalem in 1099 by the Latin armies and the establishment of the Crusader States in Edessa, Antioch, and Jerusalem, the Muslim and Christian forces fought a see-saw series of wars, in which both parties were guilty of the usual gamut of wartime immorality. Over time, even with reinforcing Crusades waged from Europe, the Crusader States, strung out on precarious lines of communication, slowly succumbed to superior Muslim power. In 1271, the last Christian citadel, Antioch, fell to the Muslims. No longer having to divert forces to subdue the Christian beachhead on the Eastern Mediterranean, the Muslims regrouped for a 400-year-long jihad against Southern and Eastern Europe, which twice reached as far as Vienna before it was halted. In geostrategic terms, the Crusades can be viewed as an attempt by the West to forestall its own destruction at the hands of Islamic jihad by carrying the fight to the enemy.
@Bruce
To the 10 year old Iraqi child huddled in the rubble our army must seem pretty terrifying.
Thank you for making this point.
RE “” [Well then if those terrorists are really muslims why on earth are they killing other muslims? BELIEVE ME THEY ARE NOT MUSLIMS. Islam is very different from what they’re believing in.””
————————————————————————————————-
——– This seems to be the root of the problem with Islam.
Every Muslim has in common a belief in Allah, Mohammed, and that certain other “so called” Muslims are not Muslims, and that somehow Israel is to blame for every evil.
Don’t know if it’s convenient disingenuity, schizophrenic delusions, or blatant denial of reality, the problem is poisoning the religion and the rest of the world has taken notice.
Every religion, race, political party, whatever classification, they will have various public perceptions for good or bad. Islam is starting to approach the 30/40s Japanese/Germans. Not fully there yet, but only because the bad elements are more disparate and scattered with less organizational ability than those period Germans and Japanese.
Developed western governments, Latin America, Asia, Africa also need major improvements, but middle eastern countries and Islam in the most dire straights in spite of being very geographically and spiritually wealthy in so many aspects.
Something terrible wrong needs righting immediately, but it’s gonna take another century at the least unless a dynamic leader of the millennium emerges from the mess.
@ Alec
What are the facts regarding the conflicts that have been the result of human activity over recorded history?
Do you really believe that you can Google and come up with facts? Do you think you can obtain an university degree and be armed with facts?
All you will have, at the end of the day, is history written by the winners and the losers. If you attend university in Iraq or Israel you will have a different sense of history than if you attend university in the US or Canada.
Is it possible for you to come to this conversation without the one-sided history lesson and with a free and open mind?
For instance, can you read the Bible and see the hatred and violence that is contained within its pages, especially toward women and children?
The only way we will ever be truly able to sort out a different future for humanity is if we can persuade ourselves that we are not better than our neighbors and our neighbors are all other human beings, not simply members of our group.
Jesus said it best, “Love your neighbor as yourself!”
the prophet Mohamad was a murderer, a rapist, a pedaphile, and a keeper of slaves who preached intolerance of other religions, violent conversion and terrorism.
A billion people who follow his teachings need to ask themselves why they believe any thing he said.
Selena,
For Christians the New Testament supersedes the Old Testament.
Christ taught his followers to love their neighbour and to turn the other cheek.
The nasty stuff is in the Old Testament and is more of a history lesson of the Jewish people’s relationship with their god.
Oh and by the way we are talking about muslim /b> terrorism here.
“Is it possible for you to come to this conversation without the one-sided history lesson and with a free and open mind?”
I don’t think this is possible seeing as the sentiment is to take focus off of the issue of what makes Islamic terrorists do as they do and discuss how bad Christianity is at every turn. People have different beliefs. There should be no attempt to make one better than the other. I am sure that not all Christians are bad just as I am sure not all Muslims are bad.
When someone provides their personal opinion on religion as they see it and it is different from a preconceived ideal instead of taking it at face value it’s just made into a flimsy attempt to make religion bad because having a religious affiliation is seen as someone making the statement of being “better” than someone else. Inferiority complex. THAT is why there is no progress made with regards to this subject.
@ selena
how do you teach “love your nieghbor as yourself!” to people who are taught hate and intolerance from birth?
Convert them to Christianity perhaps?
“There are moderate Muslims, but there is not moderate Islam”.
The only way to “solve” Islamist terrorism is to destroy the cause: Islam. That relegion in essence is a wellspring of terrorism and therefore must and will be eradicated.
@Jack
Certainly people who believe in the God of the OT profess a belief in turning the other cheek.But how many times is that belief actually practically applied? When has anyone ever turned the other cheek (in general political terms)? Ghandi?
Maybe there will be the odd person who will turn the other cheek (in their personal lives) but it is the exception, not the rule.
As I see it that is part of the problem we are investigating. Everyone thinks the other person/country should turn the other cheek but we are not prepared to practice what we preach. Did the West turn the other cheek after 9/11?
We even have people here who are offended that we don’t stick to talking about the Muslim problem, as though we are not all a part of that problem and have to be part of any solution. They don’t even want to speak of Christians in the same breath as Muslims. Heaven forbid!
We really don’t know how to practice doing unto others what we would like for others to do to us.
To turn the other cheek and to do unto others requires that we must first stop looking outside ourselves for someone to blame. We have to examine our own behavior, first and foremost. And that, my dear Jack, is a tall order indeed! 🙂
Ros, I strongly believe that it is not the media’s job to make islam look roses and daisies. that should be up to the believers to get rid of the rotting fundamentalist core and clean it out so there is something good to say.
the media’s job is to report the news.
as for the danish cartoons – muslims have no say over what happens in Denmark, all stop.
WOW your speakers are experts at pointing the finger away from themselves. unless you understand where the problem lies and what it is… you will not be able to solve the problem.
We really need to put the Bush War of Terror on the back burner and address the worst problem in the world today:
Actually, it has turned out that the worst threat to America and indeed the world was not Osama Bin Laden and others like him, no, it was and still is American Conservative Republicans who De-Regulated the financial sector and therefore caused this current sub-prime crisis that is stopping the US and the World Economy.
Bin Laden caused some three billion US dollars in damage on 9/11 and killed around fifteen hundred people, but American Conservative Republicans have caused over a Trillion US dollars in damage just up to now with untold hundreds of Billions in damage still to come, nearly killed off the entire world economy, and who knows how many people are left homeless and might even commit suicide because their future looks so bleak. American Conservative Republicans have caused the Nation of Iceland to face bankruptcy and driven them to beg Russia for a loan.
American Conservative Republicans have done far more damage in the world than any “Islamic Extremist” could have dreamed of even in his wildest and most fervent dreams.
It is time to re-prioritize our concerns to the current world reality.
The US and the rest of the world need to work together to get American Conservative Republicans out of power just like the Allies worked to defeat Hitler and his ilk in WW2. This needs a worldwide effort! We have to defeat the evil of Conservatism just like we defeated the evil of its’ cousin, Nazism!
Jack Hughes, Rick and others who have a black and white view of the world,
I was waiting for the tried and trusted western kop out. Such a simplistic come back, I can’t quite believe it.
Briefly, the country of Iraq was invaded not liberated as you no doubt choose to believe. If a badly wounded serving soldier of the British Army as a consequence of the conflict, and he’s one of many who would voice similar comment I’m sure, but are just not given the platform to do so via a predominantly biased UK and western media. He recently went on record as saying so on an insignificant tucked away radio programme. Also, for his colleagues to say that they have no real understanding of why they are there in the first place be it in Iraq or Afghanistan, then who are you to argue otherwise. A country or state anywhere in the world is not liberated if foreign troops enter upon its soil without the express permission, invitation or is in accord with the said country’s leader’s (dictator or no and previous v. good friend of USA in this instance) wishes that such an action be carried out. That is an act of direct violation by placing military forces other than your own upon sovereign territory, for the express purposes of trying to depose its leader or leaders and also occupy its land. The people are not free in Iraq but are dying or being killed as a consequence of military intervention by the uninvited coalition forces.
To date there are anything from 600,000 to a million and half Iraqi casualties up to the present time. It is being labelled a liberation by the West. And Lieutenant General Tommy Franks who led the invasion of both Afghanistan and Iraq, when asked about civilian casualties said, “We don’t do body counts” a blunt and ignorant response in the effort of trying to distance George Bush from the total loss and chaos that was Vietnam. The percentage of civilian deaths due to Coalition fire as opposed to that of insurgents is about 4 to 1. The Lancet survey presented to both Bush and Blair concluded that of 655,000 dead Iraqis up to 2006, 601,027 died as a consequence of violence as opposed to natural causes, equating to 500 plus civilian deaths a day since the invasion. Chief Scientific Adviser to the Ministry of Defence said the survey was “close to best practice” and in addition said “the study design is robust.” Blair was warned to be “cautious” in criticising the survey findings. Bush and Blair dismissed all findings out of hand. Wiser heads than I who say when someone is not even prepared to discuss or debate such findings, then is the time to be immediately suspicious of their outright denial. Is it possible that they have something to HIDE OF REAL CONSEQUENCE. If they can’t counter with a relevant or answer of some substantial evidence to the contrary, then the answer is a resounding YES!!! Not wishing to appear callous, but 2,700 dead in New York pales into comparison does it not?
One man’s terrorist is another person’s freedom fighter. Imagine for one tiny moment where YOU LIVE, was without warning concertedly attacked by cruise missiles, smart weapons and smart bombs so called, that definitely lead to collateral damage, lovely phrase that – for innocent civilians killed and decimated in the field of battle, by a constant armoured barrage and relentless weapons fire upon THE ENEMY. The enemy might just be considered to be someone like YOU or ME in reality, when faced with INSURMOUNTABLE ODDS stacked against YOU. Surely you’d fight back to protect your family and friends at all costs in such an unimaginable situation? WELL WOULDN’T YOU AND BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY TO EXACT REVENGE AND TRY TO STRIKE FEAR INTO YOUR FOE?
But they’re PSYCHOTIC MOSLEMS aren’t they, hell bent on the destruction of the world as we know it. You really believe it’s as simple as all that! Cont’d
To L.Walker
with all respect, I think your views of the media role are too simplistic. Unfortunately the media does play a much bigger role that just report news. That role comes from the fact that the way they report, what they report and the analysis they present ..etc all of that can spread cretin underrating whether it is right or wrong. And lets also be real here, the media is run by human beings so they are not immune to human weaknesses. Having said all of that societies are responsible to deal with thier non-behaving members through various means and institutions and the media is one institution that has rol to play.
With regards to the Danish stuff, it is up to them to apply what standard they want in their country however basic human relation says that if i know that my neighbor has something that is very sacred to him out of courtesy i will respect it without having to believe in it. Would you feel good about someone for example making fun of you father in his grave, of course not.
A Matthew
I detest the west’s involvement in both Iraq and Afghanistan. We have no business there. However you seem to confuse that issue with the problem of religious extreemism within Islam.
Iraq and Afghanistan came after 9/11 and many other terrorist attacks against the west.
I mostly agree with your stance on Iraq.
The point I made and you ignored is that Mohamad was no angel and taught nasty stuff to his followers and that is where the answer lies to solving the problem.
To Alec Paterson
I do not think that using the 911 hijackers as an illustration that not just poor or oppressed people who revolt to violence. Look in you own country criminal courts and see how many rich and seemingly normal people do strange things. It is some deep disturbance in these people that causes them to do that. I do not know what drove the 911 guys to do what they did but it is clear that someone like Ben-Ladin was able to convince them that what they where told to do is righteous and i personally believe that no normal person would believe that.
Yes – They have to forge away to fight Terrorism within Islam because the act is a religion which
is only found in Islam.
When they plant a Bomb,about four christians, one
white and hundreds of muslims are killed in the blast.
So the logic here is that Terrorism is a political a
organisation of Islam and meant for Muslims only but has has extended to affect non muslims and should therefore be discussed upon by their respective heads and other stakeholders.
Only if you start killing non muslims, that is when
we fight back! Otherwise if they keep killing themselves as part of their religion, then the world will have no problem with the way they worship!
For us non Muslims,instead of Terrorism, we feast,make
parties,dance and give our women freedom of choice-they dress on trousers and dont cover their faces!
Hi Lubna
Wonderful to hear from you. I have a lot of friends in Iraq. Obviously you are in a privileged position as a member of the medical sorority, but I do worry for both our nations.
I stayed in Baghdad and went to Najaf where I spent a couple of weeks at the Boroujerdi School. I taught a young priest English in return for an insight into Islam.
We are on tenterhooks over here. I hope things will improve.
1.why a man become terrorrist? 2.how terrorrist ideas are gaining root? 3. why terrorrism is more mong muslims?
if we try to answer these questions we can easily solve world terrorrism problom. no need to spend so much money to fight it.
answers 1. A man (muslim in palastine ,iraq, afganistan or tamil in srilanka or previous IRA in irland) become terrorrist when he is denied justice ,equality or he is attacked only becose of his beleifs(father ,mother, or children killed and get no justice,)
2.some anti social group take advantage of the above said un satified group for their personal gains.
3.more injustice is done to muslims it started with palastine.when jewish state is formed.jews from that time used christians to fight for them.
no man is born as terrorrist it is to the world to solve this and not by force.find the root couse and solve it
Jack Hughes, Rick & others,
Try a different and little reported angle for a change. Tear yourself away from Fox News, Sky TV and all the prime time reporting by the major networks for a moment, if you can. Check out Sean Langan’s report from Iraq in 2004, his direct access to the Taliban, and consequent kidnapping, ransom and near death at their hands. He’s been on the front line and nearly dispatched as a direct consequence of being there, on more than one occasion. He wasn’t an EMBEDDED REPORTER, being taken and told where to go and what to report. That’s not journalism in the true sense, but DOING THE BIDDING OF YOUR MILITARY AND POLITICAL MASTERS BACK HOME IN WASHINGTON & LONDON! You want anywhere near honest reporting from all sides of the conflict as was, then I suggest you sit down and watch RIGHT NOW as a MINORITY AUDIENCE PARTICIPANT his reports. Before the Iraq invasion there was NO AL QUAEDA, NO INSURGENCY or INTERNECINE CONFLICT apparent there. This all came about as a direct consequence of the oh so bright decision to go there on the basis of a LIE “Weapons of Mass Destruction and 9/11.
John Pilger, diligent journalist or MUCK RAKER & COMMIE as he is often called, and little heard of since 2003, but has been busy behind the scenes compiling meticulous evidence and information to counter all that is transmitted by the major news networks about Iraq and Afghanistan. He recently won the most coveted journalistic award as voted by all his peers, unbeknown to most.
Noam Chomsky, another RABID LEFTIE I hear you say. Read his books and literature he has compiled and written over the years and you’ll find it difficult to counter much of what is said. An example of his writings is why Turkish Armed Forces get a virtually free hand in crossing over into Iraq to engage with the PKK, better know as the Kurdish Freedom Fighters on one side and Terrorists by the Turks. Turkey a strong NATO member partner for 50 years has been the recipient of the world’s largest ARMS SUPPLIES AND CONTRACT from the USA. INTERESTING THAT!
How many times have I got to repeat this stuff? If anybody thinks they can offer a counter argument to substantially challenge all the points I’ve made here and in the first part of the post then go ahead. One example of many atrocities the massacres in the Shatillah and Sabra Palestinian refugee camps. What a fiction? And this doesn’t add to and fuel the hatred felt by the Arab nations towards the West, let alone the daily herding, corralling, monitoring and killing of Palestinian citizens in the West Bank and Gaza strip in Jerusalem by Israeli Security Forces.
For God’s sake, wake up please!
Jack Hughes, Rick et al,
Re. Rick is this not another prime example of how you put the shoe on the other foot for pity sake. Suicide bombers are not born, not bred, are not some Frankenstein creation. They are just like you and me until such a time when yes their political masters and controllers seek to brainwash and instill within them a sense of vengeance and revenge to carry out the political will at their master’s behest and perpetrate acts of violence in the name of Allah. But perhaps if western governments gave these subjugated and oppressed people the platform from where to speak and voice their opinions by peaceful means constantly and in a consistent manner, then they may retreat from violent means. But faced with an intransigent Israeli government implementing strictest control of daily movement and freedoms and curfews upon Palestinian citizens, and killing men, women and children, with seemingly no consequences to follow, and even British journalists for God sake! And who won’t even openly admit to having an ARSENAL OF NUCLEAR WEAPONS IN THEIR POSSESSION as supplied by the USA, then you’re faced with a David and Goliath situation, where they can see no way out. And in that instance, for it is so easy to manipulate the naive minds of the young, be it in any nation. Not just restricted to the Middle East, but elsewhere. This is the main crux of the problem of course. The limited choice is so all encompassing and binding to such a negative and destructive extent, that individuals will either resort to AN EYE FOR AN EYE AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH scenario to be played out on the real stage or an extremely reluctant passive acceptance of an authoritarian dictatorship! The undoubted purpose of terrorism/freedom fighters is to inflict considerable pain and suffering upon the perceived oppressors who offer little respite to their victims beyond SUBJUGATION and CONTROL! This situation has been going on for decades since the creation of the Israeli state. And unfortunately it has been exported beyond the borders of the Middle East and to the shores of America in most recent times, if all that we’re being told is to be believed. I doubt that all the previous events and incidents of violence that have occurred and finally culminated in 9/11 are so simplistic and easy to explain away in clear cut terms as most western media would have us all believe. But if you’re only given one version of events for the most part and little else to counter the accepted storyline then WHAT CAN YOU BELIEVE BEYOND THE WESTERN EXPLANATION OF SITUATIONS AS CONVEYED THROUGH THE VAST MAJORITY OF ALL NEWS NETWORKS & MEDIA FOR MANY, MANY YEARS! Cont’d
Jack Hughes, Rick et al,
ASK YOURSELF WHY THE LANGANS, PILGERS, CHOMSKYS ARE NOT AT THE FOREFRONT OF REPORTING AND GATHERING INFORMATION AND NEWS FROM IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN & ANYOTHER THEATRE OF CONFLICT IN THE WORLD ON A DAILY BASIS COURTESY OF A DEMOCRATIC & FREE MEDIA AND ALL THE OTHER CONFLICTS SINCE I945 AND BEYOND? ASK YOURSELVES WHY? When John Bolton in a televised interview with John Pilger in 2003 can freely turn round in his capacity as the then Under Secretary of State boasted to Pilger that “the killing of as many as 10,000 Iraqi civilians in the invasion was “quite low if you look at the size of the military operation.”
For raising the question of civilian casualties and asking which country America might attack next, I was told: “You must be a member of the Communist Party.” In fact he also enquired as to Pilger – I thought you were a New Labour supporter, to which Pilger replied “Don’t you know they’re the new Conservatives.” In reply Bolton said – “What are you a COMMIE then?”
What a truly democratic man with obvious insight and intelligence to offer the world’s political dilemmas and problems. NO A F—-IN COWBOY!
Over at the Pentagon, Feith, No 3 to Rumsfeld, spoke about the “precision” of American weapons and denied that many civilians had been killed. When I pressed him, an army colonel ordered my cameraman: “Stop the tape!” In Washington, the wholesale deaths of Iraqis is unmentionable. They are non-people; the more they resist the Anglo-American occupation, the more they are dismissed as “terrorists”.
Because those who want you to know about anything going on there is what’s going via THEIR VERSION OF EVENTS, and that’s an END TO IT! NO MORE QUESTIONS TO BE ASKED, THANK YOU VERY MUCH, GOODNIGHT & GOOD RIDDENS!
JUST MAKE SURE YOU GET OUT THERE THE NEXT DAY, EARN YOUR DAILY CRUST, KEEP YOUR NOSE CLEAN AS DO WE THE LEADERS AND POLITICIANS. AND BE EVER SO COMPLIANT WHEN WE NEXT ASK YOU TO PAY YOUR TAXES FOR OUR NEXT JOLLY MILITARY JAUNT. OH, WHERE SHALL WE GO NOW? HMM I’M NOT SURE, NORTH KOREA a bunch of no good self-serving nuclear armed Commies, that one’s easy enough to sell to the MUPPET PUBLIC. And our good friend IRAN, basket case nuclear armed MOSLEM AGGRESSORS & TERRORISTS, yeah that fits the necessary description to fill our tabloid headlines and saturate our major news networks, PIECE OF CAKE! THE PUBLIC WILL FALL FOR IT TIME & TIME AGAIN, while we plan what do with the OTHERS on our ENDLESS LIST of BENIGN INTERVENTION & ASSISTANCE towards the true path of FREEDOM & DEMOCRACY and more importantly not forgetting TOTAL CONTROL & SUBJUGATION – JUST THE WAY THEY LIKE TO
TAKE THEIR MEDICINE!
@ Matthew
John Pilger is one of my favorites, so don’t rant on my behalf. He is more prone to present facts in a calm and reasoned manner than yourself. Take a lesson. Capital letters are the blog equivelent of shouting.
Nice narrative though!
Admiral Ackbar Oct 19, 2008 at 2:03 am
“There are moderate Muslims, but there is not moderate Islam”.
The only way to “solve” Islamist terrorism is to destroy the cause: Islam. That relegion in essence is a wellspring of terrorism and therefore must and will be eradicated.
Now you wanna destroy Islam..Heh.. Look, Islam has nothing to do with what some people or (terrorists) are doing. You can’t blame Islam for people’s actions .. your problem is that you are always GENERALIZING the issue, whereas you must specify it only on those who did it.
For example a few months ago, there was the issue of Popes Abusing Children.. of course as an open-minded person I did not connect the issue to all christians, I didn’t say (Oh, this is the act of all christians) no I didn’t say that ..and also I didn’t blame the christian religion for what those popes have done.. I didn’t say (Oh, look this is what their religion orders them to do..) no I didn’t say that.. Cuz I have mind that enables me to differentiate between things, I don’t generalize. There ARE good and bad.
yours truly.
One striking difference between Islam and other religions is that Islam is also a political movement. Islam does not have the separation of church and state the rest of us have. This separation came centuries ago and we in the West take it for granted. If Islam wants to be just a religon, it is not a threat. But as a poltical movement that wants to impose it doctrines on the entire world by force it threatens not only the non islamic world but most Moslems as well. This political movement is well armed, well financed, has no population base to protect against reprisals, and no limits on the degree or extent of destruction it will impose. The only how Moslems who don’t share this view have to survive peacefully with the rest of us is to identify these radicals and for us to take them seriously and deal with them. Once the problem gets out of hand either because the larger Moslem community or we failed to deal with it, we will have no choice but to outlaw Islam altogether and impose a worldwide ban on it. Either that or face extinction of modern society and accept a return to the 11th century.
Rick,
Point taken, but I would have to say that there is a certain justification in attempting to relate information to a wider audience in a somewhat forceful and aggressive manner when the occasion so merits.
When the Neo Cons and others who would like to impose some sort of New World Order upon the unfortunate masses in such deliberate, forceful and concerted fashion, it is time to deploy a similar tactic. It’s time to wake and shake up those who are going around with a glazed view of the world and that western politics and policies in general, and no matter who is in power, in most cases can do no wrong.
You’ve probably heard of George Galloway who was requested to appear at the US Senate hearing in May,2005 investigation into him profiting by dealings with Iraq’s UN Oil for Food Programme, and various other supposed related misdemeanours in association with and public support for Saddam Hussein. Stuff and nonsense’s as proved!
Upon Galloway’s arrival in the US, he told Reuters, “I have no expectation of justice from a group of Christian fundamentalist and Zionist activists under the chairmanship of a neo-con George Bush”. Galloway described Coleman as a “pro-war, neo-con hawk and the lickspittle of George W. Bush”, who, he said, sought revenge against anyone who did not support the invasion of Iraq.
In his testimony, Galloway made the following statements in response to the allegations against him:
“ Senator, I am not now, nor have I ever been, an oil trader, and neither has anyone on my behalf. I have never seen a barrel of oil, owned one, bought one, sold one – and neither has anyone on my behalf. Now I know that standards have slipped in the last few years in Washington, but for a lawyer you are remarkably cavalier with any idea of justice. I am here today but last week you already found me guilty. You traduced my name around the world without ever having asked me a single question, without ever having contacted me, without ever written to me or telephoned me, without any attempt to contact me whatsoever. And you call that justice. ”
He was angry and usually uses bellicose language to great effect when partaking in public speaking. In the Iraq anti-war demonstrations in London, he was a major speaker, and not far off the truth of events that have sadly revealed themselves 5 years later.
He used as his method and mental channeling for the US hearings the figure and pugilist stance of Rocky Marciano, to land blow after blow upon his accusers. He rounded upon those wishing to “traduce my name and good reputation” and succeeded in embarrassing and humbling his accusers in a way they were never expecting, and would never want to witness ever again in their lives. So it can be put to good effect in my eyes. Cont’d
Rick,
If you know Pilger then you probably know Sean Langan. If not go to his website: http://www.seanlangan.co.uk/ and check it out. He’s a chain-smoking, honest character of a journalist and documentary maker, who was nearly killed at the hands of the Taliban recently. If for any reason you haven’t read up on Chomsky, which I have to say if you know Pilger, then Chomsky comes somewhat before of in the pantheon of liberal writers and journalists or SPEAKERS OF THE TRUTH. Sorry had to get that one in.
Just in case you’re unaware of Pilger’s story about Russian journalists who visited the US many years ago, here is the following quote from them in their understanding, examination and final analysis of US media is as follows:
“During the Cold War, a group of Russian journalists toured the United States. On the final day of their visit, they were asked by their hosts for their impressions. “I have to tell you,” said their spokesman, “that we were astonished to find, after reading all the newspapers and watching TV, that all the opinions on all the vital issues were, by and large, the same. To get that result in our country, we imprison people, we tear out their fingernails. Here, you don’t have that. What’s the secret? How do you do it?”
PRETTY DAMN INTERESTING! Sorry couldn’t resist in VOICING MY OPINION!
To Matthew
One miss conception about islam is that it wants to use force to impose it self. This absolutely not correct. Did you now the main purpose of islam is to give the freedom to anyone to choice his religion. Islam does not force anyone to become moslem. It is clearly stated in the Quran. However Islam does threaten by death those who exit. The idea being is that no body forced you to become a moslem so do not attempt to play games and create bad publicity by ON PURPOSE pretend you want to become a muslim and then exit only to create the impression it is bad. If you would study the history of Islamic movement north from the Arabian peninsula, it did grant others the right to choose to maintain their religion and also protected them.
One common question that is asked when the above is explain, why in Saudi Arabia no churches are allowed. The answer is that Saudi is the land of the two holy mosques where pilgrimage takes place and it is the center of islam for the moslem world, therefore it does not make sense to allow other religions to openly be worshiped. It is like going to the Vatican city and say i want to build a mosque. In Saudi Arabia their are many non-muslims who are free to worship as they like in the privacy of their homes.
Finally, with regards to Islam being both a religious and political system. You are right and this is where we could engage in a big and new debt about secular systems vs non-secular. The choice to apply islamic law is a sovereign decision which each country or any autonomous body may chose to adapt.
King Of The Apes,
Please answer if Sikhism protect the Hindoos from barbic Mugal empror’s, howcome JOODA BYEE (Hindoo Royal) been married with pride to Mugal King Akber & there kids ruled over India 9ver 200 years.
How come HINDOO INDIAN ARMY CRUSH Sikh uprising & demolish HOLLY TEMPLE.
For your kind information over half a million Muslims still are in “MALIR KOTLA” in Indian Punjab, please take BBC along with archives & 90 years old Farmer to kill any muslim in malir kotla, I am quite sure he feel shame what ever he said if you are correct.
Infact Siks have no choice beside regrett over MASTER TARA SING’S FUNDAMENTAL MISTAKE, not to claim KHALISTAN by the partation time as they were really conveyanced from Ghandhi’s hipocracy.
I know thousand’s of Sikhs migrats to Pakistan, Europe & USA because of barbic
acts of Indian Hindoo Army,
Sikhs Marshal nature been used & abused by Ghandhi. If you get chance please consult with Indian Office Library London, will help you a lot. You may observe KASHMIR LIBRATION & Hindoo Army Bahaviour in the same way Sikhs been treated in 1980’s, do you classify these Libration Movement’s as Terrorisam.
I don’t understand why Arab Muslims play the victim card among all the other nations in these world who deserve to speak out as victims? There are no people on this earth who do suffer more like Africans. Yet, we never see African suicide bombers unless they are brainwashed by Muslim fundamentalists, like in the case of Somalia. Talking of Somalia, I made a little research the other day that most of the terrorists who are operating inside Somalia or neigbhouring Kenya and Ethiopia are supported, financed and protected by Arab countries and Britain. Leaders and groups of Somali origin like the Somali libration front, or the Oromo liberation front in Ethiopia who have caused so many grievances in the Horn of Africa, live in London, and operate their Jihadi mission against Christian Ethiopia from London. Isn’t this a tragedy for the civilized world?
@ Zainab, from Iraq.
I have always believed in the destruction of the political and relegious system called Islam.
Like I said there are those who practice “Islam” and do not participate in terrorism. But those individuals are not following Islam truly. Of course Christians and others have caused problems, but there is not a system of beliefs in our time who has so threatened Western civilization, Western ideals and international peace, like Islam.
It’s either the West or Islam. I choose the West.
Now Islamists are attacking Christians in Iraq, but soon the day will come when Islamists everywhere will be have their sins pronjected upon them 100 fold. Islam will be destroyed because if it is not, the world will be.
Fahad@Saud,
“There is no compulsion in religion” (2:256). The favourite verse used to deceive non Muslims.
Islamic law regarding the presentation of Islam to non-Muslims manifests a quite different understanding of what constitutes freedom from coercion and freedom of conscience from that which prevails among non-Muslims.
Qur’an 9:29 and Sahih Muslim 4294 shows that there is an inescapable threat in the “invitation” to accept Islam.
Orders for conversion were decreed under all the early Islamic dynasties—Umayyads, Abbasids, Fatimids, and Mamluks. Additional extensive examples of forced conversion were recorded under both Seljuk and Ottoman Turkish rule (the latter until its collapse in the 20th century), the Shi’ite Safavid and Qajar dynasties of Persia/Iran, and during the jihad ravages on the Indian subcontinent, beginning with the early 11th century campaigns of Mahmud of Ghazni, and recurring under the Delhi Sultanate, and Moghul dynasty until the collapse of Muslim suzerainty in the 18th century following the British conquest of India.” Since these Muslim rulers and armies all revered Muhammad as an “excellent example of conduct” (Qur’an 33:21), this is not surprising.
Would one who converted to Islam under the threat of war be considered to have converted under duress? By non-Muslim standards, yes, but not according to the view of this Islamic tradition. From the standpoint of the traditional schools of Islamic jurisprudence such a conversion would have resulted from “no compulsion.”
Did not Ahmadinejad invite President Bush to accept Islam.He ended the invite with a statement “Those who refuse to accept an invitation will not have a good ending or fate.” says it all.
To:Alec Paterson
Alec,
I am not sure what history sources you are using. their are a lot of western historians who did not translate and document Islamic history accurately or even honistely, so you need to be careful.
It is not disputable that Islam as shown in Quaran or the teaching of profit mohammed does not force conversion. Now as time went by and after the 4th Khalifa (the 4 close followers to Moahmed who where selected as successor to lead the Muslims) the practices of Islam started to slowly divert. Some of who you quoted call themselves Muslims but they are not necessary practicing the teaching as indicated in Quaran or the teaching of the profit. For example, now in modern days you are using Ahmadinijad as an example of, or, a representative of Islam or moslims. This is completely wrong. Shiat muslims may feel that he represent them (they are about 30 or 40% of total muslims) but not necessery all muslims. Similar divisions exist among Christians. You seem to write with convection that your knowledge of islam is adquet (for example your references to islamic tradition) but as a muslim myself i can tell you that you need to know more.
Islam is not a fundamentally evil or malicious religion. It is the minority extremist groups that distort the fundamentally good doctrine. This heresy should not be tolerated by the majority of peace loving muslims. If all Christians followed the bible word for word, there would be constant violence. as Ghandi said, “an eye for an eye would make the whole world blind.”
alexander,
This thread is about muslim violence.
For Christians, the New Testament supersedes the Old Testament. In the New Testament, Jesus tells his followers to turn the other cheek, and to love their enemies.
And an interesting point about the Old Testament “eye for an eye” stuff. It was teaching against disproportionate retribution – such as blinding someone in 2 eyes for him blinding you in 1.
Fahad,
Islam as with Christianity is not a monolith, with differences of opinion among the different Islamic schools of thought. There is also common elements in Christianity, Orthodox, Roman Catholic, and Protestant Christians accept that
commonality.
One of the common elements to all Islamic schools of thought is jihad, understood as the obligation of the Ummah to conquer and subdue the world in the name of Allah and rule it under Sharia law. The four Sunni Madhhabs (schools of fiqh [Islamic religious jurisprudence]) — Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi’i, and Hanbali — all agree that there is a collective obligation on Muslims to make war on the rest of the world. When it comes to matters of jihad, the different schools disagree on such questions as whether infidels must first be asked to convert to Islam before hostilities may begin (Osama bin Laden asked America to convert before Al-Qaeda’s attacks); how plunder should be distributed among victorious jihadists; whether a long-term Fabian strategy against dar al-harb is preferable to an all-out frontal attack.
Arabic can be translated. Being an Arabic speaker can you confirm that in his sira, Muhammad’s earliest biographer Ibn Ishaq explained the contexts of various verses of the Qur’an by saying that Muhammad received revelations about warfare in three stages: first, tolerance; then, defensive warfare; and finally, offensive warfare in order to convert the unbelievers to Islam or make them pay the jizya (see Qur’an 9:29, Sahih Muslim 4294, etc.). Qur’anic commentaries, tafasir, by Ibn Kathir, Ibn Juzayy, As-Suyuti and others also emphasize that Surat At-Tawba — the Qur’an’s ninth chapter — abrogates every peace treaty in the Qur’an.
Could you stand on a street corner in Riyadh, Ramallah or Islamabad to denounce those verses? I don’t think you would live for two minutes.
Leave it to Muslims to solve the terrorism question?Heavens forbid!They (Muslims)bask in the thing.The radicals shoot kill bomb and maim and the so-called moderates lap in the benefits:Islam is more feared,respected,followed – take your pick. I am not kidding when I say Ive never met a moderate Muslim who convincingly opposes terrorism.Mostly they shrug and turn the rational over on its head by blaming the west.
Presently they’ve just shot and killed an aid worker in Kabul in broad daylight and where are the Muslims roundly condemning that act?Mandeans have been decimated in Iraq for just being different and no one bats an eyelid.What stumps me is the fact that Muslims can tolerate the killing of another person for spreading his/faith but see nothing wrong in their spreading their word in Europe in universities and their endlessly rising mosques!!!
I think the world should step in and tell the Muslims we will not accept your bestial behaviours any longer.Act like the beast and we’ll treat you all as one.And the world should do so with all firmness and fortitude and none of that smarmy,wishy-washy,self-doubting manner popular in the west these days.
@ 279 Syed Hasan Turan. October 19, 2008 at 5:21 pm
“King Of The Apes,
Please answer if Sikhism protect the Hindoos from barbic (sic) Mugal empror’s, howcome JOODA BYEE (Hindoo Royal) been married with pride to Mugal King Akber & there kids ruled over India 9ver 200 years.”
Duh! A Hindoo ‘marries’ a Mughal Emperor. OK! What has that got to do with Sikhs! Apart from despicable spelling you are temporally mixing up!
“How come HINDOO INDIAN ARMY CRUSH Sikh uprising & demolish HOLLY TEMPLE.”
All my Indian friends (some of whom are senior Army Officers) have proved to me that the Indian Army is a Secular Army! NOT a Hindoo Army!
As for the rest of your comments I will reply after you have written a convincing comment about the ‘Lal Mosque’!
@ Peter. October 21, 2008 at 3:08 pm
“Presently they’ve just shot and killed an aid worker in Kabul in broad daylight and where are the Muslims roundly condemning that act?Mandeans have been decimated in Iraq for just being different and no one bats an eyelid.What stumps me is the fact that Muslims can tolerate the killing of another person for spreading his/faith but see nothing wrong in their spreading their word in Europe in universities and their endlessly rising mosques!!!”
Absolutely typical Muslim hypocrisy! Topped up with European namby-pamby political correctness in some quarters.
I think the world should step in and tell the Muslims we will not accept your bestial behaviours any longer.Act like the beast and we’ll treat you all as one.And the world should do so with all firmness and fortitude and none of that smarmy,wishy-washy,self-doubting manner popular in the west these days.
Global warming, pollution and a host of other problems face the world today. A whole hearted acceptance of your view can ensure world population reduction by a fifth or more. An achievable and practical necessity!
Up there yonder on this blog some contributor said there isnt a Mosque set up to propoagate violence.That guy must be living in cloud cuckoo land.In just one year of my stay in muslim territory within my country muslim youths regular rounded up their friday jumat prayers by raiding the nearest Christian church and razing it to the ground.Often too the pastor would be stripped bare and beaten senseless.
Unless the world is totally blind,deaf and dumb,it should be able to see that the islamic faith is inately violent and breeds and preaches violence and hatred.By now,surely,on this blog we should have heard one muslim say Sept 11th or Bali or 7/7 was senseless murder.But we wont.Like I said,they blame it on others and never on themselves.And these in spite of the Pakistani Madrasses or the Saudi Arabian schools of thought on violent Islam.Nothing could be more mainstream.And if the hordes of western shrinks cant see this as a sign of psychotic disorder in a religious grouping then they cant see nathing,not even a pig even if it were squatted plop on their poops.