16
Oct
08

Talking Points 16th October

Hello, it’s Kate with you again today. The final US presidential debate dominated this blog last night and is dominating most-read news sites in the US. Was McCain’s style too aggressive as this article suggests? Does negative campaigning work?

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The financial crisis is continuing with unsteady markets around the world and job losses already hitting the US and Australia among others. So is it time to re-write the international rules of capitalism? British PM Gordon Brown thinks so. He wants to re-write the rules of the international financial and economic system that have been followed since they were laid down in an historic summit of world leaders at Bretton Woods in New Hampshire over 60 years ago in 1944. The World Bank and the International Monetary Fund (IMF) were created at Bretton Woods. Does this mean the world’s major institutions are now out of date?

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There has been a storm of protest in the UK over government plans to intercept details of email, internet, telephone and other data records of every person in Britain. Does the need for security outweigh the need for privacy? Do we have no entitlement to privacy in the modern world?

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This
is one of the most-read articles on the Guardian website today. The columnist is suggesting that state-sanctioned history in countries around the world is creating a “memory police”:

“In Switzerland, you get prosecuted for saying that the terrible thing that happened to the Armenians in the last years of the Ottoman empire was not a genocide. In Turkey, you get prosecuted for saying it was. What is state-ordained truth in the Alps is state-ordained falsehood in Anatolia.”

Should states have official versions of history? Is it a sign of dictatorships as this US blogger thinks? Or is it right to prosecute people who disagree? In France and several other European countries it’s illegal to deny the Nazi Holocaust. In Britain it’s not illegal and this UK columnist thinks prosecuting “thought crimes” is a waste of money.

Let us know what you think.


82 Responses to “Talking Points 16th October”


  1. 1 Julie P
    October 15, 2008 at 19:12

    Dan Quayle is offering Sarah Palin advice! LOL

    http://www.theindychannel.com/news/17721346/detail.html

  2. 2 Jessica in NYC
    October 15, 2008 at 19:27

    @ Julie P
    LOL! Isn’t Steve always harping on about politicians being narcissistic? Maybe Quayle wanted to feel important today. I want to not watch the debate tonight, but do not think I want stay away.
    —-
    @ all
    What’s the drinking phrase for tonight?

    The Washington Post: McCain’s Tough Task as 18 Months of Debates End Tonight

  3. October 15, 2008 at 19:30

    Debate special?

    It will be an interesting one – or we hope so. Game changer?

    Please post here if you feel the debate should have it’s own blog post or should we just debate the debate on the TP page.

    And welcome to the TP page for today – over, as always, to you…

  4. 4 steve
    October 15, 2008 at 19:33

    @ Jessica

    Ask and you shall recieve:

    http://www.expressnightout.com/content/2008/10/debate_tactics_chug_pbr_my_friends.php

    » WHAT YOU’LL NEED: A beer beverage proudly brewed in the good old US of A. You could go for Bud (if you’re willing to accept it’s now owned by Belgians). A safer bet? Pabst Blue Ribbon — it’s even red, white and blue! Along those lines, opt for a liquor of your patriotic choosing, a la Jack Daniels.

    » PLAYER REQUIREMENTS: For children ages 21 and up, participation is limited to the number of constituents you can cram into your living room. The game lasts 90 minutes, or until two candidates become four.

    » THE RULES: Pass out PBRs and shot glasses to all guests. Turn your TV on. Once the candidates greet each other, the following stipulations must be adhered to in strict accordance. The future of freedom depends upon it.

    » TAKE A TWO-SECOND SWIG OF PBR UPON HEARING: “Work force fundamentals,” “My friends,” “Main Street” and “Wall Street” (combine two sips if used in the same sentence). “Maverick” (finish your drink in the unlikely event it’s said by Obama). “McCain” and “Bush administration” in the same sentence (bottoms up if it’s said by McCain).

    » TAKE A SHOT OF JACK UPON HEARING: “Henry Paulson,” “Straight Talk Express,” “trickle,” “overhead projector,” “Ronald Reagan,” “mammogram,” “game changer,” “Warren Buffett.”

  5. 5 Pangolin-California
    October 15, 2008 at 19:34

    If we drink on “my friends” or “economy” we risk alcohol toxicity. May I suggest “prudent.” That should leave you with a buzz but no hangover.

    Or we could drink on “tax cuts” for McCain and “jobs” for Obama and end up completely smashed.

  6. 6 Julie P
    October 15, 2008 at 19:43

    Rule number ten:

    Margaritas all around if the name Ayers get brought up along with POW.

  7. 7 Venessa
    October 15, 2008 at 19:46

    Steve ~

    You have said in the past that you don’t think Obama could be elected on the dems ticket. Do you still feel that way given the recent polls? I’m just curious. There are still a few weeks and a lot can happen. Has anyone else out there changed his or her minds about the race?

    I predicted it would be close and I still think it will be given the history that the frontrunner in an election typically loses some support as Election Day draws closer. Anyone else have thoughts?

  8. 8 steve
    October 15, 2008 at 19:47

    @ Venessa

    Given the economy, Obama will win. Anyone would beat the incumbent party. The democrats could have put up Nader and would have won. I don’t think it will be a landslide, but I think if the economy doesn’t drastically improve in the next 3 weeks, Obama will win by 50 or so electoral votes at least.

  9. 9 Angela in Washington
    October 15, 2008 at 20:21

    @Steve

    I would like to think Obama may win but I think people will not vote for him at the last minute. Plus, I beleive McCain’s “my friends” is really helping him connect to most people, although I think it sounds condescending. I think your rules of the game are funny and will at least make the debate more enjoyable.

  10. 10 Jessica in NYC
    October 15, 2008 at 20:23

    @ Pangolin-California and Steve:

    I’m on board for the drinking, but I not sure I’ll mixing alcohol. I have to work Thursday. We’ll see who ends up being the most coherent drunk blogger. This is the last debate and not matter what, this election will not be topped in a long time.
    —-
    @ Will

    Given the last couple of debates, I SAFE it’s safe to keep the Obama/McCain debate on this TP.
    —-
    @ Julie P

    I am so on board with Margaritas all around if the name Ayers get brought up along with POW. But, but margaritas are Mexican does this make us UN-American?

  11. 11 Roberto
    October 15, 2008 at 20:27

    RE “” Dan Quayle is offering Sarah Palin advice! LOL””
    —————————————————————————————————–

    ——– Anything Danny boy does is funnier than troop of ‘roided up monkeys in a barrel.

    Could make a one hour TV special on his highlight footage alone. P4P great until the current prez happened along to mangle language and logic with dexderity that would confound a Chinese gymnast.

    RE tonite’s debates:

    McCain pulls out the heavy artillery he’s been putting together. It’s 1929 all over again and he has to land some bombs to fight the tide of fate washing in over his campaign.

    Obama to be cool under fire, but does he have the fire in the belly for what’s coming if elected? I really do feel for whomever gets selected because it’s hard to handle the heat in the kitchen when it’s going up in flames.

  12. 12 Count Iblis
    October 15, 2008 at 20:27

    If you think that McCain will win, then it would be stupid not to bet on it. 🙂

  13. 13 Tom D Ford
    October 15, 2008 at 20:30

    Jessica in NYC October 15, 2008 at 7:27 pm

    “@ all
    What’s the drinking phrase for tonight?”

    With the way things have been going who needs a phrase?

    Watch and slosh!

  14. 14 Jens
    October 15, 2008 at 20:37

    Rule 11: finish the bottle of my friend “jack’ upon the word “MAVERIKIE”…..whatever that means.

    rule 12: finish your margharita upon the words “my fellow prisoners”

  15. 15 Julie P
    October 15, 2008 at 20:43

    @Margaritas,

    It won’t be un-American if they are made from cheap tequila from New Mexico! 😉

  16. 16 Jennifer
    October 15, 2008 at 20:49

    @ Will

    Creating a special page for the debate would be nice. That way some wouldn’t have to wade through the alcohol muck. 🙂

  17. 17 Jens
    October 15, 2008 at 20:52

    Julie P,

    if only i knew, who is making cheap tequila in new mexico, i would send you a bottle.

  18. 18 Luz Ma from Mexico
    October 15, 2008 at 20:55

    Hi all!
    I would love to watch the debate and join the drinking game, but I have the flu so hopefully I’ll be in bed by then getting some deserving rest. Enjoy! Probably I’ll laugh a lot tomorrow reading your comments.

    @Jessica
    Margarita is a great example of Mexican-American collaboration 🙂 check the different accounts of how and who invent the drink (nobody knows for sure): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margarita

  19. 19 Luz Ma from Mexico
    October 15, 2008 at 20:59

    Jens & Julie

    I don’t recommend drinking cheap tequila… that stuff is awful, yuck!

  20. 20 Jens
    October 15, 2008 at 21:06

    Luz,

    can’t be worse than rocket fuel, aka cheap Grappa.

    julie and i could use it to light our cigars, though 😉

  21. October 15, 2008 at 21:13

    Dow Down 700+
    Stocks plunge anew as data points to recession
    By TIM PARADIS, AP Business Writer
    1 minute ago (as of 4:10 p.m. EDT
    The Dow is down about 733 at the 8,577 level. Shortly before the close, the Dow fell 735 to the 8,575 level. This wipes out much of Monday’s 936-point advance, and all the major indexes fell at least 7 percent.

    Retail sales plunged in September by 1.2 percent
    consumer spending accounts for more than two-thirds of U.S. economic activity. The Beige Book report found that the economy continued to slow.

    Selling accelerated in the last hour of trading. Mutual funds need to unload stock to pay investors who are bailing out of the market. Investors apparently have come to believe that Monday’s big rebound, a response to the government’s plan to invest $250 billion in banks to get the lending business restarted, was overdone given the problems elsewhere in the economy. Doubts about the economy were already surfacing in Tuesday’s session, when investors halted an early rally and began collecting profits from stocks’ big Monday advance.

  22. October 15, 2008 at 21:14

    Luz Ma, Jens and Julie,

    I recommend the cheap stuff after two shots of the good stuff. Then it all tastes the same. Although the cheap stuff does cloud ones judgment worse. It usually takes 8 shots in 2 hours of the good stuff to make me look pretty. While 10 to 12 shots of the bottom shelf stuff is required for the same response. However, my wit and charm remains a constant no matter how expensive the Tequila is. If you can believe that. And for clarification when i say “the good stuff” I mean the kind that give you the free plastic “sombrero hat” on top of each bottle.

  23. 23 Pangolin-California
    October 15, 2008 at 21:20

    Market wrapup:
    Dow -733.08 (-7.87%)
    Nasdaq -150.68 (-8.47%)
    S&P 500 -90.18 (-9.04%)

    Those three numbers practically doom McCain. Obama only has to tie John McCain to George Bush and the pounding peoples retirement accounts just ate. John McCain was a big proponent of putting Social Security money into the stock market.

    Trying to sell tax cuts for the people who just handed you this shellacing isn’t going to wash. There better be a pretty convincing rabbit under somebody’s hat.

  24. October 15, 2008 at 21:25

    Lol, Is that Steve saying Obama will win? I will have to page back a month or so and get the, “libs are just comming to terms with the fact that Obama has no chance” or somethig along that line.

  25. 25 Jens
    October 15, 2008 at 21:36

    steve,

    so you are going to vote for him right….

    i will be in DC around that time and shall visit you…..with a friendly smile and a wee wooden club, well and a pabst blue ribon and our friend “jack”

  26. 26 Jessica in NYC
    October 15, 2008 at 21:50

    @ Luz

    Good point! I will set up a mini UN in my kitchen with reps from:
    Russia: Vodka-confirmed
    Mexico: Tequila-confirmed
    Dominican Republic: Rum-confirmed
    Holland: Heineken-confirmed
    Belgian: Duvel beer-confirmed
    Netherlands: Gin-Confirmed
    Wines from US, France, Argentina, Greece and Australia confirmed
    Plus a few other Beers who did not RSVP.

    (Having an Obama party week, so I’m set)

  27. 27 Jessica in NYC
    October 15, 2008 at 21:58

    @ Steve

    “Given the economy, Obama will win.”

    Whoa! Everything is right with the world… I need to sit down, the room is spinning. Can I get you to say Palin was the GOPs biggest mistake this election?

    —–
    @ Tom D Ford

    I think we should drink to Steve admitting Obama will win.

  28. 28 selena in Canada
    October 15, 2008 at 22:18

    LOL and people think Sarah Palin is stupid!

  29. 29 Jennifer
    October 15, 2008 at 22:23

    @ Selena

    I posted that link for Bryan 😀

  30. October 15, 2008 at 22:24

    The presidential debate post is up – can you all post on there with comment and discussion about the debate and leave this post for news stories that people want for up and coming shows.

    Thanks.

  31. 31 Jessica in NYC
    October 15, 2008 at 22:48

    @ Selena
    “LOL and people think Sarah Palin is stupid!”

    Obama may make a few stupid word blunders, but Palin just IS! HUGE difference.

  32. 32 selena in Canada
    October 15, 2008 at 22:55

    Stupid is as stupid does!

    Not much choice there, as I see it. 😉

  33. 33 Luz Ma from Mexico
    October 15, 2008 at 22:56

    Dwight:

    when i say “the good stuff” I mean the kind that give you the free plastic “sombrero hat” on top of each bottle.

    That is not the good stuff!!! lol

  34. 34 Amy
    October 15, 2008 at 23:08

    Jessica,

    Don’t forget Ireland. You need some good Irish whiskey or at least some Bailey’s for us Irish drunks 🙂

  35. 35 Jessica in NYC
    October 15, 2008 at 23:10

    Selena, I’m dying from all the laughing, but I’ll reincarnate for the debate tonight. 😉

    Maybe French school are just as bad as American public school then. 😦

    Teacher to student Barack: You’re failed this exam, count again.
    Teacher to student Sarah: You’re a failure, quit and find a skilled trade.

  36. 36 Jens
    October 15, 2008 at 23:26

    Luz,

    common, it is as good as the average “ham shank” thinks it can get. here in New Mexico tequila is a religion…..

    i am sticking with russian Vodka or maybe a broubon

  37. 37 Jessica in NYC
    October 15, 2008 at 23:40

    @ Amy

    Ah yes, no worried the Irish always BYOB and with plenty to share.
    —-
    @ Luz Ma

    I had my first (gasp) glass of fine tequila 2-3 years ago on a trip to el DF. OMG! Someone thought it would be a good idea to gives us a shot of mescal (had that for the first time too) and tequila almendrado before we claimed the Pyramids in Teotihuacan. We made it to the top of both pyramids and a few of the little ones.

  38. 38 Venessa
    October 15, 2008 at 23:40

    Gin for me!

  39. 39 Julie P
    October 15, 2008 at 23:53

    Seriously, I come from good old Polish stock; therefore, it’s Vodka for me!

  40. 40 DENNIS@OCC
    October 16, 2008 at 00:33

    @ ZK and Will

    welcome to the table of moderating!

    For ZK…Long time…We all miss you.!

    *My drink of choice: SODA!

    Dennis

  41. 41 DENNIS@OCC
    October 16, 2008 at 00:38

    I have a question for everyone….In Azerbaijan,
    The country had the elections and the current
    president won the polls 89% of the vote [from
    70% of the polling stations reporting]….

    Is there something wrong with this “picture”….

    For further information–The BBC website
    has the story!

    Dennis

  42. 42 ZK
    October 16, 2008 at 00:49

    Thanks. In Azerbaijan I believe the opposition boycotted the polls. This (as well as vote rigging) still seems to be a big problem in large swaths of the former Soviet Bloc.

  43. 43 Tom D Ford
    October 16, 2008 at 01:53

    Jennifer October 15, 2008 at 8:49 pm

    “@ Will

    Creating a special page for the debate would be nice. That way some wouldn’t have to wade through the alcohol muck. :)”

    So much for “Judge not that ye be not judged”, eh?

  44. October 16, 2008 at 01:54

    I can’t believe that there can be anything finer then “The Bull”.

    I will be dinking my home brew. I have recently completed some of “Dewy’s DUI Stout.” The beer that won’t freeze. I pla n on taking it easy though. Just going to drink when I hear words like Obama, McCain, or senator. lol. Taxes, might be a good key too. Then there is “This question is for you”. I still think they should pick represenatives to pudding wrestle. I would know more about their politics from that decision then I would from their actual answers.

  45. 45 steve
    October 16, 2008 at 02:42

    FBI says Texas killing from a while ago of two sisters may have been an “honor killing”

    http://www.khou.com/news/state/stories/khou081015_jj_honor-killings-motive-teen-deaths.115cd380f.html

  46. 46 Jonathan
    October 16, 2008 at 08:34

    Five and a half hours without a peep? Server broken, or did everyone else find something better to do, all at once?

    I’ll take it as a providential suggestion and see what trouble I can get into on this spectacular warm, clear San Francisco night. With any luck at all, the rest of my evening will not be a suitable topic for Thursday’s radio program, so I shall say goodbye for now, my friends.

    Oh–would somebody please feed the crickets, they’re chirping.

  47. 47 Bob in Queensland
    October 16, 2008 at 10:48

    Hi Kate!

    Interesting article about the UK government plans to set up a database of all phone calls, emails and so on. However, with the UK government’s habit of “losing things” how long would it be until every phone call in the UK is out in the public domain?

    Seriously, it’s a cliche but still true: Once we give away freedom to the extent suggested here, the terrorists have already won.

  48. October 16, 2008 at 11:00

    Does Negative Campaign work?, some times it works when the audience are gullible enough, but in the context of the US Presidential elections, it is obviously not working for John McCain otherwise he should have had a 10 point lead in the polls by now. It has simply backfired for the McCain camp. 😀

  49. 49 Vijay
    October 16, 2008 at 12:33

    Re:BBC World Service/Oxfam World Food Day Survey.

    It is World Food Day and I have heard some interesting reports today from around the world .
    What is keeping the price of Food around the world artificially high?
    State approved History.
    It would be good to have a state approved history at least one could examine what the state see as history,it would be a starting point for debate.
    Two nuclear bombs were dropped on Japan however they did not learn to write History “correctly” the Germans did.

    Government surveillance
    It has always happened overtly or covertly ,this new exercise is more like data harvesting ,your data will only be examined completely if there are keywords or phrases used.

    Bretton Woods II
    It broke down the first time ,and it may be seen by developimg countries as the “old “economies maintaining their preminent position by entrenching the status quo.
    It could also be viewed as an economic surrender by some,Bretton Woods 1 was a scheme set up by the victors in WWII,who now might be forced to surrender their economic freedom.

    In WWI the Germans had to sign their surrender in a railway carriage,Hitler made the French sign their surrender in WWII in the same railway carriage,the Chinese and Arabs might make the West” kow tow” at a Bretton Woods II.

    .

  50. October 16, 2008 at 12:33

    lol, I just realized something. Is Nancy Palosi just a heartbeat away from being vice president?

  51. 51 Jennifer
    October 16, 2008 at 12:54

    @ Negative campaigns

    I think an effort has been placed on categorizing the campaigns as positive (good) and negative (bad). People would much rather hear stories about cuddly kittens and tiptoeing through the tulips as opposed to the truth. In that sense, Obama has the better campaign.

    I think when you consider the differences between how McCain has ran his campaign in contrast to Obama, McCain has focused on what makes him different from Obama as opposed to Obama who runs ads that feature himself as a saint coming to the rescue. Who doesn’t want to be rescued? Yet, when asked what he would want to cut….he says something like….we’ll have to evaluate and decide……no definite answer? In my opinion, that is discrediting-when someone stretches the facts or otherwise evades a direct answer!

    Obama has been negative, however, he simply lets other people do it for him from Joe Biden to his supporters. I see that in comments made about both McCain and Palin all the time.

    I am so hoping that the lead changes around. If not, people are so going to get what they deserve. Then, in 2 years, they can start moaning and groaning about how bad Obama is! haha Many don’t realize that we have a democratic house……who knew?!?! pfft.

  52. 52 Jennifer
    October 16, 2008 at 12:57

    @ Dwight

    “The Speaker is also second in the line of succession to the presidency after the Vice President under the Presidential Succession Act of 1947.”

    Here you go: http://speaker.house.gov/about?id=0001

  53. October 16, 2008 at 13:12

    lol, Jennifer,

    like we got what we deserved 8 and 4 years ago? You are right. I hope we finally get what we deserve. Two wars costing a trillion dollars, and noting is gained. A reduction in business taxes that have lead to a 75% increase in unemployment and rising. Record profits for the oil companies as gas prices have doubled. North Korea have restarted and tested their plutonium nuclear weapons program. More foreclosures then during the great depression. The emergence of many new enemies that otherwise could have cared less about America. The re-emergence of Russia as an economic and military power. The loss of a surplus back into deficit spending. China sending our children lead painted toys without even a question or a pause in trading. Genocides occurring while we stand by idle. An economic environment that required a “stimulus package” and a $700 billion bailout. The loss of a CIA network that could have stopped a future terrorist. Acts of treason and the diminishment of the constitution. Torture and spying on our own citizens by the government. Failed airlines, automakers, and hot tub manufactures. The crumbling of the world economy.

    There are just random examples, but you are right I hope we do. Because we sure didn’t deserve this.

  54. 54 Dan
    October 16, 2008 at 13:18

    The best debate happened last night.
    Obama has a better healthcare plan but McCain has better international knowledge & experience.
    America’s enemies will immediately challenge Obama and he will collapse unable to know what to do. McCain will nuke them.
    When South Osetia was invaded by the Russians McCain knew where that was, Obama had to have someone bring him a map and then he went to Google Earth.
    Obama lied no one said “Kill him”, McCain looked confused at times.
    Obama showed his appeal is being a Rock Star, McCain’s appeal is being a rock.
    Cindy McCain will bring the elegance of Jacqueline Kennedy back into the Whitehouse, Michelle Obama will reign holier hell than Hillary in the Whitehouse.
    I am voting for Joe The Plumber…..he is the only one who knows what he is doing.

  55. October 16, 2008 at 13:31

    Does negative campaigning work?

    To swing stupid voters in the Reality / Drama based TV culture in America, yes.
    Informed voters will simply go look up allegations and make their own conclusions and thus become more well informed. Unfortunately, I think the stupid Americans outweigh those who will actually search for information and come to their own conclusions.

  56. 56 Dan
    October 16, 2008 at 13:42

    @Dwight
    You simply must stop being such an “optimist”. We cannot correct everything so we pick one or two items and we work hard to correct. That is the real strength of America.
    There will always be bad things happening.

  57. October 16, 2008 at 13:53

    lol, Dan,

    “But we can do them all at once. There’s no — and we have to do them all at once. All three you mentioned are compelling national security requirements.”
    Sen. McCain n the second debate.

  58. 58 Dan
    October 16, 2008 at 14:06

    @Dwight
    Yes…but McCain’s a fool. No one (or nation) can do everything at once. We all have finite resources….even the USA.

  59. 59 Shaun in Halifax
    October 16, 2008 at 14:07

    Here’s an interesting article from The Economist speculating that some of the CEOs in the banks may face jail time:

    http://www.economist.com/daily/columns/businessview/displayStory.cfm?story_id=12410288

    So should these guys go to jail? Will they be called to account?

  60. October 16, 2008 at 14:10

    I don’t know if you were being serious. Our economy is not in a vacuum. For years now, our politicians have acted as if it were.

    For example, as opposed as I am t welfare, could you imagine if tomorrow the policy was changed. No more welfare checks. You are on your own. Wal-marts would close, the crime rate in projects would shoot through the roof and spill into the more advantaged neighborhoods, and slum lords that make money renting to them would go belly up. That is just a few ramifications.

    Look what happened here and abroad just because the current administration decided to pursue an “ownership society” policy.

  61. October 16, 2008 at 14:23

    He’s no fool? Then why doesn’t he say these things? Brokaw asked him 3 times to just prioritse, list them in order, and he couldn’t bring himself to do it. Obama did. How am I supposed to know that by your criteria that “we can’t do everything” that he is “no fool”?

  62. 62 Dan
    October 16, 2008 at 14:36

    Dwight
    You are right…no doubt about it.

  63. 63 Pangolin-California
    October 16, 2008 at 14:45

    Joe the plumber, in all likelihood, hires illegal immigrants to fulfill his construction contracts. That’s the only way he’s netting $250K yearly and a very common practice in new construction. The plumbers I know are lucky to bill 6 hours a day at $70/hourly gross. That’s $109K gross of which 25% goes to expenses before taxes. That can occasionally be boosted by hiring an assistant or working 6 days a week or 10 hour days but that’s not sustainable.

    If ICE shows up at Joe’s job site he’s out of luck. Sorry Joe, no sympathy from me.

  64. 64 DENNIS@OCC
    October 16, 2008 at 15:01

    Security does not outweight the need for privacy…That is why, we have a legal system for the purpose of security problems….

    YES, We have a entitlement to privacy in the modern world!

    Dennis

  65. 65 Jonathan
    October 16, 2008 at 15:01

    @Kate

    Those stories about UK government surveillance are chilling and shocking. Does the need for security outweighs the need for privacy? That is the wrong question.

    There is no conflict between privacy and security; it’s a false dichotomy. Surrendering privacy will not bring security. Genuine counterterrorism requires strategy and intelligence. Snooping on 60 million citizens will do nothing toward that end.

    If the people of the UK are frightened into surrendering their fundamental rights, the terrorists will have won.

    Jonathan
    San Francisco

  66. 66 DENNIS@OCC
    October 16, 2008 at 15:03

    Does negative campaigning work?
    In some cases, negative works, but if “you” abused it…Then it will come back….

    Dennis

  67. 67 DENNIS@OCC
    October 16, 2008 at 15:05

    The “state” can have a HISTORY, but they have NO right to punished the society for having a opinion other than the “state” version….

    Why would the ‘state’ waste its money on this sort of law!

    Dennis

  68. 68 DENNIS@OCC
    October 16, 2008 at 15:07

    To Add to my original thoughts on 16 October 2008 @ 12.49am

    A) Thanks ZK

    B) I also, believe the opposition boycotted the polls and also, vote rigging….I may not go as far as saying it happens only in the Former Soviet Bloc countries!

    Dennis

  69. 69 Bob in Queensland
    October 16, 2008 at 15:31

    @ Jonathan

    Re: Security/Privacy

    I couldn’t agree more.

    However, I don’t necessarily take the story at face value. Just as in the USA, it’s not uncommon for British politicians to leak fairly extreme versions of policies, both to see how they play with voters and also to “soften up” the electorate to possibly accept a watered down version at some point in the future.

    Fortunately, the terrorist scare tactics haven’t worked nearly as well in the UK as the seem to have in the USA. Unless things have changed in the year and a bit I’ve been in Aus, Blair then Brown have had real problems getting any popular support for various bills to restrict privacy and reduce freedom.

    …not a reason to become complacent, just evidence that you can’t fool all of the people all of the time.

  70. 70 Pangolin-California
    October 16, 2008 at 15:45

    The debate news justs gets sweeter. Joe Wurzelbacher, the famed, Joe the plumber, of last nights debate is apparently a) not registered to vote and b) giving press conferences this morning where he refers to Obama “tap dancing,” a gross racial slur in the US.

    So the GOP base is hockey moms, high-school drop-outs, racist plumbers and rich millionaires? Good luck with that.

  71. October 16, 2008 at 15:53

    The debate news justs gets sweeter. Joe Wurzelbacher, the famed, Joe the plumber, of last nights debate is apparently a) not registered to vote and b) giving press conferences this morning where he refers to Obama “tap dancing,” a gross racial slur in the US.

    So the GOP base is hockey moms, high-school drop-outs, racist plumbers and rich millionaires? Good luck with that.

    Maverick…

  72. 72 Mark
    October 16, 2008 at 16:04

    Fox News is discussion an “honor killing” of two Molsem girls who were dating non Moslem men and not wearing Moslem clothing. Both the father and his brother were implicated in the murders and the men are fugatives. While Sharia law may be establishing a foothold in Britain, in the US this premeditated murder will likely receive the death penalty for both men as just punishment under American law and as a warning to all others who would commit such a horrible crime. No we will not look the other way or let them off lightly with long jail sentences. This is exactly the kind of heinous crime the death penalty is meant for and we have no qualms or apologies to make about using it. The Moslem community is up in arms but who cares. If they don’t like it, they can try to change the law or they can find places to live where law and enforcement are more to their liking.

  73. 73 selena in Canada
    October 16, 2008 at 16:33

    The Moslem community is up in arms but who cares.

    What is the community up in arms about? The killing of the girls or the fact that those responsible may be punished?

    And who is saying that they are up in arms?

    I really don’t think that Britain would look the other way if girls were killed, Sharia law or not!

    Would they? Would someone from Britain care to comment?

  74. October 16, 2008 at 16:49

    Selena

    I really don’t think that Britain would look the other way if girls were killed, Sharia law or not!

    Would they? Would someone from Britain care to comment?

    They would be tried to the full extent of the law and, if found guilty, spend a lot of years in prison.

    Just like the ones that have ALREADY been tried and found guilty of murder – which it is.

  75. 75 Dan
    October 16, 2008 at 16:55

    @Mark
    In my view if the Muslims want to live under Sharia law where someones hurt feelings or has suspicions that give them leave to commit murder then they should move to those wonderful Islamic countries like Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran or any other medieval culture. In the real world where civilized people live, we have laws and that seesm to be an anathema to the Muslim culture.

  76. 76 Dan
    October 16, 2008 at 17:16

    @Pangolin-California
    I cannot find any news stories to support your allegations against “Joe the Plumber”
    Is this a fantasy, misdirection, misinformation or a wish?

    How about some data?

  77. 77 Pangolin-California
    October 16, 2008 at 17:44

    Dan~ Still all in the blogoshpere. Don’t worry, John McCain opened a huge can of whoop-ass on poor Joe. By the end of the business day we’ll have his shoe size, tax records, divorce proceedings, business licenses and every other bit of public or private information that can be winkled out on him.

    He had better be paid up on his library card.

    I kind of feel sorry for the big, racist, skinhead. Ok, not really. 😉

    It’s also going to be pointed out that Joe has already done more media interviews than Sarah Palin. Oops.

  78. 78 Venessa
    October 16, 2008 at 17:47

    Dan ~

    I couldn’t find any information either. One prediction I do have is that Joe’s business is probably going to pick up….

  79. 79 Jennifer
    October 16, 2008 at 18:04

    @ Dan

    Probably just a fantasy…..anything to keep the bitterness alive.

  80. 80 Pangolin-California
    October 16, 2008 at 18:14

    (moderator- offending word deleted)

    Dan~ Still all in the blogoshpere. Don’t worry, John McCain opened a huge can of whoop-apples on poor Joe. By the end of the business day they’ll have his shoe size, tax records, divorce proceedings, business licenses and every other bit of public or private information that can be winkled out on him.

    He had better be paid up on his library card.

    I kind of feel sorry for the big, racist, skinhead. Ok, not really. 😉

    It’s also going to be pointed out that Joe has already done more media interviews than Sarah Palin. Oops.

  81. 81 John LaGrua/New York
    October 20, 2008 at 18:44

    McCain is like a wounded wildebeast with a lion on his back.Still snorting and pawing the ground but doomed.Obama will add some fire to his rhetoric and leave his opponent legnths behind at the finish line.

  82. 82 John LaGrua/New York
    October 20, 2008 at 18:46

    McCain is like a wounded wildebeast with a lion on his back.Still snorting and pawing the ground but doomed.Obama will add some fire to his rhetoric and leave his opponent lengths behind at the finish line.


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