10
Oct
08

Blank Page no 28

Welcome to another Blank Page. Here you can continue the global conversation while we’re away from the office and let us know what you’d like to talk about on WHYS next week. Amy in the US is your host. Brett in the US will be helping out too. Over to you…


386 Responses to “Blank Page no 28”


  1. 1 Julie P
    October 10, 2008 at 19:32

    On a lighter note. Cambodian couple has domestic dispute. Husband gets mad, and not leaves, but cuts house literallt in half and moves it to his parents property.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7661786.stm

  2. 2 Katharina in Ghent
    October 10, 2008 at 19:37

    Hi everyone!

    TGIweekend, that’s what I always say! Anyway, here’s some good news: Oil prices are finally falling again. get out that rusting SUV!

    http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2008/10/10/oildrop.html

  3. 3 Jessica in NYC
    October 10, 2008 at 19:39

    Latin leftists gloating over ‘Comrade’ Bush’s bailout

    “International Monetary Fund have always told us to follow when we have economic problems — a structural adjustment that requires cutting government spending and reducing the role of government.”

    Is this the answer to turning the economy around? What needs to be cut? Does reducing the role the government mean not having any checks an balances? What about regulations? Clearly, I just have questions and more questions… Hi Amy and WHYS community, any thoughts?

  4. 4 Robert
    October 10, 2008 at 19:39

    Perhaps a more historic event than even the credit crunch, an attempt at first contact. Just a shame it will take 40 years to find out if it works. We might even have sorted out the crunch by then.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7660449.stm

  5. October 10, 2008 at 19:41

    Re posts 131, 134, and 164, and pleas by corporate owners and their supporters for more bailout help:

    I think that corporate welfare is immoral. I do not think that corporations need money. A corporation is not a human. If it dies, it dies. No funeral, no eulogy, no casket, no grave, no rotting, nothing. If a human is about to fail and does not have the resources to sustain himself, of course bail him out. Humans are more important than the health of an economic system. Economic systems should be made to accommodate human needs. Humans should not be made to adapt in order to accommodate the growth, survival, or death of an economic system. Welfare should be for needy humans, not corporations that made stupid mistakes based on greed.

  6. October 10, 2008 at 19:42

    28 Anthony October 10, 2008 at 4:18 pm: For everyone who took out their money and are not sure what to do with it, here is what you can invest in:
    -Guns
    -Water Purifier
    -Back up generator…

    Anthony suggested guns; I would add to that various security measures such as bars over doors and windows.

    I am not so hype on just flour in and of itself. I strongly feel that now is the time for us people to learn to grow and make our own food. We should learn how to grow legumes, vegetables, fruits, nuts, grains, etc. We should learn to raise any meat/dairy animals that we might need, find out how to feed and care for them, etc. Of course, I would ask, “why bother?” but that is just me. We need to learn how to dry, can, freeze, and otherwise preserve our food. We need to learn how to prepare and cook it. And we should probably be doing this using organic/heritage seeds so that we can actually keep seeds at harvest time for planting come the next year.

    It would be very handy if we could figure out how to make a fire without using a lighter or matches. It would be even more handy if we could learn how to provide first-responder-type care without a pre-packaged store-bought first aid kit. It would be more than useful if we could learn how to gather water and make it potable without dropping a tablet in it. We should learn how to make and maintain clothing without sewing machines – at least, the electric-powered onoes.

    We do not need a material to make use of these skills. All that it really takes is a steep rise in the prices of life-necessary commodities and services in relation to our wage-earning potentials.

    And here you all thought that the recipe exchanges were nonsense!

  7. 7 Robert
    October 10, 2008 at 19:48

    OK, at a time when the world is entering an economic crisis, wars are being fought on multiple fronts, and the world may be irreversible heating up, the latest battlefront in the election campaign is Palin’s facial hair

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/uselection2008/sarahpalin/3171956/Sarah-Palin-Newsweek-criticised-for-unflattering-cover.html

    Surely there are more important things that the powers that be should be focusing on.

  8. 8 Brett
    October 10, 2008 at 19:51

    @ Shirley and firearm investment:

    I’m not a fan of guns, but will certainly be purchasing a firearm if things go south lol.

    And here you all thought that the recipe exchanges were nonsense!

    And the gardening information exchange 😉 lol

  9. 9 Robert
    October 10, 2008 at 19:56

    Perhaps a similar feature to wordpress? Maybe listening to how long your post is would get people to cut them down?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/3173494/YouTube-play-back-feature-to-humiliate-inane-commenters.html

  10. 10 Julie P
    October 10, 2008 at 20:01

    @Jessica,

    Re: decapitation on a rollercoaster

    It was two teenagers at Six Flags Over Georgia that hopped all of the security fences that lost their heads this summer.

  11. 11 Robert
    October 10, 2008 at 20:02

    Katharina

    I’m not surprised about the drop in oil prices. Non of the independent oil majors used three digit oil prices in their planning assumptions. $100+ oil was always unsustainable. They won’t return to the prices we had even three years ago, but we shouldn’t see the insane figures again for a while.

  12. 12 Venessa
    October 10, 2008 at 20:03

    Robert ~

    Such focus on such things ans Palin’s physical flaws certainly keeps the public distracted from examining more important issues!

  13. 13 that one
    October 10, 2008 at 20:11

    geezzzzzzzzzzzzz,

    i am by no means a palin fan, but i thought that image was not bad at all. it shows an image of a 44 year old woman with all her beauty and flaws. we all wrinkle and have inperfections, which makes us probably more attracktive than faultless beauty.

  14. 14 that one
    October 10, 2008 at 20:12

    julie p,

    it’s called darwinism…….

  15. 15 Robert
    October 10, 2008 at 20:17

    that one

    I agree. My hobby is photography and the best photos I have taken all had flaws in the them. The image makes her look human just like the rest of us. I’m sure there are plenty of women who dream of looking like Palin when they hit their mid forties.

  16. 16 Venessa
    October 10, 2008 at 20:31

    Maybe someone can enlighten me. I admit I am a bit baffled and don’t understand if we really do need the bail out. Entrepreneurship is about taking your own risks and if you fail…. well, it’s your problem. No one pays my bills if I over extend myself or make a risky investment. Everyone was aware that the market was over inflated and nothing was done and now this is the result.

    Someone still has money right; it couldn’t all just be gone into thin air? Doesn’t this collapse make way for new businesses to emerge in the wake of those that collapse?

  17. 17 Venessa
    October 10, 2008 at 20:33

    Robert & Jens ~

    I haven’t seen the Palin picture up close but who cares?!?! I have dabbled in photography and have always felt the pics that capture inperfections are wonderful. We forget that it is what’s real and I hope I look that good at her age. Additionally Newsweek is not some fashion magazine.

  18. 18 Robert
    October 10, 2008 at 20:45

    Venessa

    What if it is your savings money in the bank which failed? You join the back of a line of creditors and are unlikely to see your money for years as it works it’s way through the lawyers. The system can cope with a couple of failed retail banks as the remaining ones cover the depositors money, but if enough fail then the whole system grinds to a complete halt. The money is still out there as you say, but it is in the wrong hands and will take years to be sorted out.

    The situation has now reached a point where the banks do need help to survive, otherwise the whole system will collapse. What needs to be put in place though is punishment for those that ask for help.

  19. October 10, 2008 at 20:58

    Hey Amy and other regulars!!!
    I am really concerned about the current crisis in the African National Congress and was hoping we could look at an index analysis of the dispute and the ramifications it will have if the ANC goes fragmented.

  20. 20 Bryan
    October 10, 2008 at 21:10

    Julie P October 10, 2008 at 7:32 pm,

    A coupla anecdotes to demonstrate that there is more than one way to lose your home:

    A decade or two ago, around the time that South Africa was shedding Apartheid, a family returned home from holiday to find the family home gone. Starting from the roof, naturally, thieves had dismantled the entire house and everything in it and trucked it away. Imagine driving up to where your front gate used to be and finding a gap where your house used to stand, in a place that never has hurricanes.

    As the New South Africa moved into gear, various areas of the country fell into disrepute and disrepair. A friend who owned a modest apartment in a working class area had tried to sell it without success, moved out and tried to rent it without success and tried to carry on making the monthly mortgage payments without success, believe it or not, the bank having stopped deducting the payments, for some inexplicable reason . Eventually she gave up trying to convince the bank to take the money. Meanwhile, the area had become more and more lawless and squatters had simply moved in to her building and occupied vacant apartments there, hers among them.

    Coupla years went by and the bank suddenly woke up and deducted a huge amount from her account and then carried on deducting the monthly payments. Hopefully by now she has paid it off.

    Now there are a few people on this site who no doubt believe that the squatters had every right to have that home provided for them. It’s a small step from there to the belief that the thieves has every right to cart that house away beam by beam and brick by brick and rebuild it elsewhere, as a sort of concrete example (pun intended) of “redistribution of wealth.”

  21. 21 Robert
    October 10, 2008 at 21:12

    Continuing on from the blame game; apparently its all rock and rolls fault. On a more serious note could it be that the cult of celebrity which some try to emulate be to partly to blame. We want it all, we want it now, and we want it on credit?

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2008/oct/10/rolling-stones-credit-crunch-ameriquest

  22. 22 Bryan
    October 10, 2008 at 22:17

    Sheikh Kafumba Dukuly October 10, 2008 at 8:58 pm,

    Well, things move quite slowly in that part of the world. Whatever squabbles they have internally, the ANC will still be re-elected by a huge majority next year. Jacob Zuma becoming president of SA worries me because I don’t think he will have the same concern for economic stability that Mbeki has.

    The value of the rand is another cause for concern. It is now 9 to the US dollar. It was around 7 this time last year and the dollar has also weakened since then.

  23. 23 selena in Canada
    October 10, 2008 at 22:23

    Alternative trading systems

    New securities marketplaces, including alternative trading systems (ATSs), are emerging in Canada. Securities which trade on the Toronto Stock Exchange or the TSX Venture Exchange, which are currently the primary markets, may also trade on an ATS. One of the new alternative trading systems is called Alpha ATS L.P. (Alpha ATS).

    Does anyone know anything about this?

  24. 24 Amy
    October 10, 2008 at 23:07

    Sheikh Kafumba Dukuly,

    I honestly don’t know much about that part of the world. I do agree with Bryan that I am concerned with Zuma and the value of the Rand. The violence in South Africa is also very troubling. I have a friend who is from there and still has family there. She won’t go back and doesn’t want her children to go there either because of the violence.

    I’d love to have our African contributors give us their thoughts and maybe shed some more light on the subject.

    I also on how Zuma will handle/deal with Mugabe and the ongoing Zimbabwe crisis.

  25. 25 Amy
    October 10, 2008 at 23:25

    Freudian slip or a “right wing conspiracy”?

    Some are calling it a Freudian slip. Everyone’s calling it a big mistake.

    Hundreds of absentee ballots sent to voters in New York State’s Rensselaer County, near Albany, were printed with Barack Obama’s last name spelled as “Osama,” the Albany Times Union reports.

    County elections officials tell the newspaper that it was a typo that made it by three rounds of proof-readers. They also said the error affected just a few hundred voters, and that they will re-send corrected ballots on request. (from CNN Political Ticker)

  26. 26 Robert
    October 10, 2008 at 23:29

    Amy

    Perhaps a joke by the ballot paper printers that was forgotten about and mixed into the main run?

  27. 27 Julie P
    October 10, 2008 at 23:49

    @Amy,

    Re: Freudian Slip

    I think Ann Coulter was the print shop manager!

  28. 28 Venessa
    October 10, 2008 at 23:53

    Robert ~

    I am in agreement there should be a consequence for ANYONE who requires “bail out” assistance as a result of really poor decision making. I just don’t see that happening and I’m a little bitter about the likelihood that myself and other conscientious people get to pay for the damages.

  29. 29 Julie P
    October 11, 2008 at 00:01

    Net to be added to the Golden Gate Bridge for suicide jumpers.

    http://www.ktvu.com/news/17621359/detail.html

    And not a moment too soon after the day on the stock markets worldwide.

  30. 30 Bert
    October 11, 2008 at 00:04

    Food shortage in Zimbabwe? Wow, I wonder why that should surprise anyone. Confiscate productive farms, and exactly what should anyone expect? Sure makes me cynical.

    People who borrowed money below prime interest rate have a hard time hanging onto their homes? Sort of fits the same model, doesn’t it?

    It should have been scary as hell when home prices were climbing amazingly fast, and still people were buying them up like hot cakes. I still wonder why the alarms weren’t ringing then.

    To me, the real problems start when people lose jobs, because that’s when recovery becomes very difficult.

  31. 31 Roberto
    October 11, 2008 at 00:05

    RE “” Barack Obama’s last name spelled as “Osama,””
    —————————————————————————————-

    ——- Early hatchet job sounding the call for the coming swiftboat ads.

    Rove didn’t consider that the opposition will be adopting his tactics. Just as many lies can be told about reps as dems.

    Small wonder Wall Street locked up in fear. When candidates all portrayed as spawns of Satan, what does that make Wall Street or even main street?

  32. 32 Robert
    October 11, 2008 at 00:09

    Venessa

    I’m not to sure about the US bail out package. Ours seems a little better but I’m not sure by how much. In exchange for the money the UK government will get preferential shares in the bank, reduced bonuses of the bosses and reduce dividend payments to share holders. It will be interesting to see if it is enough. The banks are a little weary of it (Barcleys are trying to raise the capital on the open market and HSBC have pulled resources from their far eastern operations rather than through the scheme .) which is a sign that it is going to be painful for them, we’re just waiting to see if it will work.

  33. 33 Dennis@OCC
    October 11, 2008 at 00:10

    Hi Amy [welcome to the MOD table] and Also, Brett…..

    Re: decapitation on a rollercoaster
    That is why, you and anyone else, will never get me
    on that item….

    Re: Cambodian couple….
    i saw that story, i was going to talk about it…but
    the link was took much to load up from my computer….

    Dennis

  34. 34 Dennis@OCC
    October 11, 2008 at 00:15

    @ Sheikh Kafumba Dukuly October 10, 2008 at 8:58 pm

    I have to agreed with the crisis of the ANC it has some severe ramifications and long-term consequences….

    Dennis

  35. 35 Bert
    October 11, 2008 at 00:25

    Agree with Vanessa. It looks like both parties are singing the socialist tunes now. I’ve yet to see any sensible explanation as to what that $700B bailout will be doing, and a whole lot of pandering to voters with hands stretched out about “Wall Street” and “mainstreet” nonsense.

    Everybody wants a handout.

  36. 36 Venessa
    October 11, 2008 at 00:25

    Robert ~

    It should be painful for them at the very least.

  37. 37 Bert
    October 11, 2008 at 00:46

    I’m trying to figure out what would be a more “natural” way for the economy in the US to recover. The govt taking people’s money to hand it to those who coiuldn’t manage their finances, both corporate and private individuals, seems like a recipe for more disaster.

    Home prices dropping to where they most likely belong is not all bad. Mostly, that’s a needed correction. The problem is companies that can’t meet payroll. I think that recovery would be fastest if those companies simply cut salaries across the board, rather than lay people off. A layed off household can’t recover. A household with reduced income can instead learn to live within their means.

    I think there has to be a way to get everyone back to reality. There has clearly been way too much binging in the past several years, by your average joe. Huge 3500-4000 sq ft homes, obscene SUVs, and everyone thinking they were “entitled.”

  38. 38 Kelsie in Houston
    October 11, 2008 at 01:35

    Hi Amy and Brett:
    Some news: Sarah Palin found guilty of abuse of power by the Alaska state legislature–
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7662820.stm

  39. 39 Julie P
    October 11, 2008 at 01:36

    @Kelsie,

    It’s the October surprise! WooHoo!

  40. 40 Bruce Sickles
    October 11, 2008 at 01:42

    Vanessa-I could’t agree more (the money is still out there). And I also have to question the wisdom of the bailout. If we continue bailout practices then banks will do nothing to protect our savings-ever! They have to be allowed to fail and new systems put into place as needed, not propping up failed systems.

  41. 41 Jonathan
    October 11, 2008 at 01:45

    Oooh, Alaska investigation just released its report saying Sarah Palin was…. Oh dagnab it, Kelsie, you beat me to the punch!

    MSNBC says Palin is now “forced into a defensive crouch.” Interesting mental image….

  42. 42 Kelsie in Houston
    October 11, 2008 at 01:53

    @Jonathan:
    😀 Mike says we all beat Drudge; chalk up a win right there.

    A bit more:
    • the BBC (article has been expanded):
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7662820.stm
    • CNN: “Palin abused power; broke no laws.”
    http://edition.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/10/palin.investigation/index.html
    • FOX: “Problems with this report,” says Republican state senator.
    http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/10/10/panel-palin-abused-power-firing-commissioner/

  43. 43 Jessica in NYC
    October 11, 2008 at 01:53

    ******Breaking Great News********

    Palin found guilty of violating ethics as Governor of Alaska. Unfortunately she “broke no laws…. so no jail time. LOL I’ll settle for more voters swinging towards Obama.

    Fox News: Panel: Palin Abused Her Power in Firing of Commissioner

  44. 44 Kelsie in Houston
    October 11, 2008 at 02:00

    For people wondering what the roots of Mrs Palin’s “abuse of power” are: a BBC “Q&A”:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7662182.stm

  45. 45 Dennis@OCC
    October 11, 2008 at 02:00

    It is sad that Palin was found guilty of violating ethics rules as Governor of Alaska….

    Dennis

  46. October 11, 2008 at 02:02

    I just realized That Alaskans are so original that they elected two senators with the same name. I bet it was the qualifications that got them their.

    Anyway, what a great way to show how media has leanings. you just have to pick the one you believe and then call the other two biased.

    BBC says, “This is what happened.”

    CNN says, “not only did this happen, but look at what a travesty it was and nobody is going to get punished for it.”

    FOX says, “The liberals said it happened but we aren’t going to believe it and here is our flimsy reason why.”

  47. 47 Jessica in NYC
    October 11, 2008 at 02:03

    @ Kelsie and PortlandMike

    RE: Palin

    “Ya betcha” I’m gloating. I’m even doin’ a little dance…

  48. 48 Kelsie in Houston
    October 11, 2008 at 02:04

    @Dwight:
    YOU BETCHA! I like your breakdown–very true.

    @Jess:
    Doin’ the happy dance 😀

  49. 49 Julie P
    October 11, 2008 at 02:06

    @Jess and Kelsie,

    Let’s form a conga line!

  50. 50 Bruce Sickles
    October 11, 2008 at 02:07

    Vanessa -I just heard a report say that when Bush was throuugh reassuring the public on the financial situation he flew off to raise money for republicans. I guess he knows the money is out there too.

  51. 51 Jonathan
    October 11, 2008 at 02:09

    @Bert

    Couple of details:

    The subprime mortgages were not “below prime interest rate,” which would have made them affordable but not profitable. “Subprime” refers to the credit ratings of the borrowers; they had less-than-stellar credit, also known as subprime credit. The interest reate was typically somewhat higher than the rate for “prime” customers, which made the loans and the bonds they backed pay a higher rate of interest for a somewhat higher risk. That higher risk is the problem now, because it has turned out to be very much higher than anyone expected, because of the subsequent housing price decline.

    Speaking of which, sure, home prices were awfully high (still are in my city), but homes are a special case because as a nation of homeowners, most of our personal wealth and “savings” is in the form of home equity. (It’s been an excellent idea for 70 years.) So really our houses are also financial assets (anything costing north of a quarter million dollars is inevitably a financial asset), and a price collapse is like a very huge stock crash.

  52. October 11, 2008 at 02:15

    Hi all

    Palin can now be impeached by the Alaskan legislature. 🙂

  53. 54 Jessica in NYC
    October 11, 2008 at 02:15

    @ Kelsie, PortlandMike, Julie P, and Dwight

    ~~I’m so excited, I just can’t hide it~~

    I am definitely watching the next debate especially since McCain said he was going to question Obama’s morals! LOL. McCain might want to look up the word morals….

    Come Julie let’s conga….

  54. 55 Julie P
    October 11, 2008 at 02:18

    Will,

    I am so pleased. Let’s do the happy dance! 🙂

  55. 56 rick
    October 11, 2008 at 02:18

    @Palin – was there ever any doubt? not for us “liberals”.
    About the HSBC, if Iv’e got my morgage with them and they go tits up do I still gotta pay?

    man, we sure do live in interesting times…

  56. 57 Matthew
    October 11, 2008 at 02:20

    I’m rather concerned to say the least re. America even contemplating electing Hockey Mumbo Jumbo Palin and the possibility of he to be a replacement president for one foot in the coffin candidate Plain Jane McCain.

    How can you have an insight and begin to understand the world outside USA if you have an immediate contempt and complete disregard for those countries and their leaders you need to communicate with and create some kind of dialogue with on a regular basis. From day one you will elicit the exact same response on the opposite side if you conduct yourself in such a manner. What an example of a professional, enlightened and forward thinking person that is.
    She’s not a force to be reckoned with, she’s a media hyped adversary with no substance.

    Now as Americans if you can attach more importance to a political individual because they’re supposedly a law abiding (seriously being brought into question with “Troopergate”) and God fearing Christian, pro-life ticket, and these are the prime requisites and assets one need have to hold the second highest office in the land and go one better if McCain shuffles off his mortal coil sooner as opposed to later, then MORE FOOL YOU!

    Quite clearly she doesn’t posses anything being remotely connected to intelligence at all, is truly conceited, with the pretence of being genuine. No understanding of the world beyond US borders, deliberately insular in her mindset, like so many of her tunnel vision supporters, and thinks America can and has never done any wrong, or is guilty of any immoral misjudgements on the international stage. She is a Molotov cocktail just waiting to be launched by the angry and frightened mob when faced with any foreign adversary that could have cataclysmicconsequences for us all. In short she’s DANGEROUS!

    And smearing Obama with terrorist associations. It’ll be Osama next and he sat down and shared tea with the Taliban, soon time to roll out any picture with moslem attire which Obama wore as a mark of respect to his guests at the time.

  57. October 11, 2008 at 02:26

    President Clinton was impeached due to abuse of power – NOT breaking the law. So it is now up to the Alaskan government to impeach Palin 🙂

  58. October 11, 2008 at 02:33

    I have a perplexing question. If we are all living “within our means”, how many people would have been unemployed because of it? The thought stream is “If millions of people choose not to buy a good or service, then how many people will not be employed by that lack of purchase?”

  59. 60 Jennifer
    October 11, 2008 at 02:37

    Re: Sarah Palin’s Abuse of Power

    3 words:
    Obama smear tactic!

    The really great news is that it will have little effect on those who are able to discern truth from yet another spineless Obama smear tactic. Again, it came from someone else so he didn’t loose his halo. That guy has no balls whatsoever!

  60. 61 Kelsie in Houston
    October 11, 2008 at 02:40

    Jennifer:
    How ridiculous. There is no way this could be attributed to Mr Obama–none whatsoever. The commission was bipartisan, and the decision issued 12-0. There is no connection whatsoever with Mr Obama. If the GOP attempts to concoct such a connection, it will be a new low–even for the Republican Party.

  61. 62 Amy
    October 11, 2008 at 02:41

    Jennifer,

    It’s not a smear tactic. It’s fact!! The decision was unanimous.

    What is a smear tactic is kitchen sink that the GOP is throwing at the Obama campaign..

  62. 63 Bert
    October 11, 2008 at 02:42

    Homes are supposed to be as you say, but that works only as long as the value keeps going up. If the home becomes overpriced, but the lending institutions sucker buyers into risky ways of “affording” to buy them, such as no money down and variable interest rates, then all that does is prop up, temporarily, a phoney home value. It’s all fake.

    When the overinflated value invariably corrects itself, the people who couldn’t afford the mortgage in the first place are left with negative equity. So the home has become more like a regular car (i.e. not a collector item). You buy it, and it instantly loses “value.”

    My proposal for this is not to bail out those owners, nor their bank. My proposal would be to let the bank take their home back, let the extravagant owners walk away and move into a small apartment (for example), of course their credit rating will go down the toilet, and the bank can then put the house back on the market, obviously now at a more reasonable price. More like what it’s worth.

    Home prices never would have become so inflated so fast, had the lending institutions not played silly games, and had buyers been more responsible.

  63. October 11, 2008 at 02:43

    @ TrooperGate

    Jennifer~

    But wait! What can Obama have to do with what Sarah Palin has done?

  64. 65 Luci Smith
    October 11, 2008 at 02:44

    Shirley, I sure did agree with your first posting where you talk about the difference between human beings and corporations. You are spot on there!

    But I don’t understand you at all in the second posting when you start talking about guns and having bars on your windows and freezers and raising dairy animals.
    I grew up in an environment where guns were readily available and guns got used in robbberies and arguments between friends and famliy members. I abhor guns and weapons of any kind.
    I would rather have good neighbors and not own anythng worth stealing than have to live with bars on my windows.
    Fresh food is much better than frozen as far as nutrients go. Cooking is kind of like learning to use a computer. Some people are cordon Bleu chefs or programmers, but it is good to be able to cook healthy food. It is easier if you get somebody to show you how to do it. (Or watch BBC Food).
    As far as animals go, I wouldn’t even have a neutered cat if it couldn’t make its own way in and out of the house.
    I guess my point is, that some people are good at growing organic vegetables and some people are good at fishing and some people don’t mind cutting up dead animals so I can buy meat at the supermarket. And nice farmers have cows that they spend an awful lot of time taking care of, so I can buy organic yogurt and butter.
    And if a society provides education and health care and tries to make sure that kids get a chance to get a job, then people don’t have to get all those things by joining the Military where you learn to kill people and torture and rape them in order to dominate them and steal their resources. The whole point of having a society is to be social, to help each other out. And I really think that a lot more could be accomplished by diplomacy and helping each other out – locally and globally – than by violence and wars.
    If the money that was spent on weapons and waging wars was spent to combat poverty and provide health care for everyone and good schools where children got a hot lunch, learned to play a musical instrument and played sports….Don’t you think the world would be a better place?
    If you missed out on scouting, where you learn how to start fires without matches, you can buy the SAS Survival Handbook which is from the British Military Special Forces. It has all kind of interesting information that will empower you,
    Let’s all try to stay civilized and not go into disaster mode. Remember to turn off the computer and go for a walk or a bike ride.

  65. October 11, 2008 at 02:45

    I have to concur with the others who say this cannot be attributed to Mr Obama. He had nothing at all to do with this – and remember this all started months ago, way before Obama won the primaries.

    Sarah Palin abused her power and it was against the Alaskan ethics law – not any FED law.

    She can be impeached as Bill Clinton was. She brought this upon herself.

  66. 67 Amy
    October 11, 2008 at 02:46

    A friendly reminder… Please keep your posts short!! Thanks!

  67. 68 Jessica in NYC
    October 11, 2008 at 02:49

    Don’t cry, GOP… it’s time to face it, Obama will be president of the United Stated. Next time Republicans might want to check a VP’s credentials before asking someone to join the Presidential ticket. LOL

  68. 69 Julie P
    October 11, 2008 at 02:53

    Palin’s political career is over. Finished.

  69. 70 Bert
    October 11, 2008 at 02:55

    Dwight, sure, if everyone lived within their means, the economy would not have been so hot in the past few years. And it would have been more stable. And we wouldn’t have quite the problem with energy imports.

    That’s what this economic engine is now trying to force us back to. It’s only painful because the system was allowed to get so far out of whack. I see it as a machine with feedback loops. You can abuse it a lot, but all that does is eventually create a much more drastic correction.

  70. 71 Jonathan
    October 11, 2008 at 03:03

    @Dwight

    Glad you asked that one. I’ve been jabbing a friend and fellow Californian in this space on that issue: basically, if you like the idea of a world without credit, just keep watching over the next few months, and see it happen.

    The fast answer is “a LOT.” If people only bought what they literally “need” to survive, and paid cash of course, it’s safe to say resulting unemployment would easily exceed the 25% at the worst of the Great Depression. For every one item, you’ve got the people not making it, not shipping it, not advertising it, not selling it, not buying it….

  71. 72 Kelsie in Houston
    October 11, 2008 at 03:07

    @Sarah Palin’s newest woes:
    The McCain/Palin campaign has released a statement in response:
    http://i.usatoday.net/news/politics/election2008/pdf/mccain-summary-on-palin-10-10-2008.pdf

    via USA Today.

    ::EDIT::
    Wrong: this was Mr McCain’s previous statement released earlier today. Sorry, folks!

  72. 73 Kelsie in Houston
    October 11, 2008 at 03:12

    @SP
    Second try:
    Mr McCain’s response this evening is on this page–
    http://blogs.usatoday.com/onpolitics/2008/10/palin.html

  73. 74 Pangolin-California
    October 11, 2008 at 03:13

    The american presidential election is pretty much down to the calm guy with the good voice, Obama, vs. a tired confused old man and his dim, slutty, harpy, female protege. The latter group keeps getting caught in lies and factual errors but a hard-core of religious fanatics and racists will keep their campaign alive.

    This campaign is all over but the crying. The GOP is going to take a staggering beating not seen since the 30’s.

    Deal with it.

  74. 75 Jonathan
    October 11, 2008 at 03:17

    Oh. I was gonna say, just wait and watch for the Palin bans to still rally ’round, because they’re impenetrable (they don’t drink the kool-aid; they snort it). Again I see I’m just a bit late.

    Yes, indeed it came from someone else, other than Obama’s campagin. It came from the Alaska legislature, a bipartisan body, over which Obama has zero influence. It doesn’t matter, though, does it? It could have been a grand jury on Mars, and we’d still be hearing how it somehow is Obama’s doing. Him and, you know, those terrorists he pals around with, rearin’ their heads there.

    What’s that old saying, there are none so blind as those who will not see. And you can’t make ’em drink. 🙂

  75. 76 Jennifer
    October 11, 2008 at 03:19

    Re: Sarah Palin’s Abuse of Power

    It is a smear tactic!

    To say that this is the end of Sarah Palin’s political career is ludicrous. Try her in a court of law and find her guilty THEN I will reevaluate my opinion of her. This Wooten dude was trouble before SP was even Governor! He illegally shot a moose, drank alcohol in a patrol car, and tased his own stepson with a tasergun? Yeah, he’s a peach! He would never do anything that would warrant being fired.

    I find it so funny everyone jumping on the bandwagon of oooooh, she’s done this get her!!! Without even doing homework on this at all. If you check out the members of this committee you’ll find there are links to Obama and ones have even made monetary donations to his campaign. So, yeah, they are totally unbiased and we should take their finding as concretely as we would a court ruling!

    I’ll laugh so hard I’ll cry but that’s about it! haha Funny how this is coming out now that Obama was weakening in appeal with some voters.

  76. 77 Kelsie in Houston
    October 11, 2008 at 03:23

    Seriously, Jennifer: this was funny the first time…
    It is not a “smear tactic.” The commission was bipartisan–i.e., of the two parties, and returned a unanimous decision. Spin all you want: it was a decision made in the interests of the law and propriety, not partisan politics. This simply isn’t going to stick–sorry.

    Obama falling in the polls? Only the ones run by such impartial sources as the Weekly Standard, probably.

  77. 78 Amy
    October 11, 2008 at 03:23

    Jennifer,

    There were 8 Republicans on the council. Are you saying that they are in Obama’s pocket too? The decision was UNANIMOUS. They all voted that she broke the rules.

  78. 79 Pangolin-California
    October 11, 2008 at 03:36

    Reality still has a liberal bias. You could eliminate the entire trooper issue and Sara Palin is still so dumb that the campaign is afraid to release her college transcripts or SATs. This is still the woman who couldn’t name the magazine with her own face on the cover.

    A woman who can be mocked merely by quoting her verbatim.

    Please, she’s a dim bulb who was chosen for her ability to fit in a tight skirt and appease the witch-hunting, snake-handling, speaking in tounges, nutcases of the religious right. The closer she gets to the presidency the faster the stock market will dive.

    Who would trust a country that would even consider this woman as president with her money?

  79. 80 Jennifer
    October 11, 2008 at 03:38

    @ Kelsie

    If you were standing in front of me I would speak in a slow clear voice to ensure your complete understanding of my statement !

    There was nothing bi-partisan about this “decision”. Do your own homework instead of reading and taking something for what it claims to be!

    This decision was NOT made by the legal system! It was made by a committee of people, much like most on this blog, that are not Palin supporters and thus incapable of reaching an UNBIASED opinion!

  80. 81 Jonathan
    October 11, 2008 at 03:39

    “Try her in a court of law and find herguilty, then I will reevaluate my opinion…”

    Right. Then we’ll be hearing about how four jurors were Democrats, or the judge voted for Obama, or whatever else the party conjures up.

    Also, Obama is gaining in the polls every day. Oh, wait, you didn’t say he wasn’t. You said,”…weakening in appeal with some voters.” Whatever that means, if anything. Funny how this is coming out as Obama is stronger than ever.

  81. 82 Roberto
    October 11, 2008 at 03:42

    RE “” It is sad that Palin was found guilty of violating ethics rules as Governor of Alaska “”
    ——————————————————————————————————–

    ——- Doubt Sarah cares less, nor McCain.

    So she can be officially said to have used her influence to get a violent ex-in law fired. Big whoop.

    The ones voting against her won’t change, and precious few voting for her will change because the issue is so frivilous in the global economic meltdown as to be a pathogen hitchhiking on the back of a flea hitchhiking on the proverbial elephant.

    The extension of the global meltdown is turning this year into 1929 all over again. Obama has the lead as of this week finally, and McCain’s draw from the deck of fate was lousy.

    Victory not sealed yet as plenty of gaffe and scandal time left and the dirty laundry has yet to really hit the fan. I have to wonder if either of the camps is conspiring to maybe throw the election down the stretch. The new president will have an impossible task and could damage long term party prospects.

    The job just ain’t what it used to be as the empire is slipping and the indignities futures look to be trending upwards..

  82. 83 Kelsie in Houston
    October 11, 2008 at 03:43

    @Jennifer:
    Apart from your insinuation that I don’t comprehend English very well (not the case, I promise):

    • “There was nothing bi-partisan about this “decision”…

    A decision made by members of both parties is bi-partisan, Jennifer–a word defined in better English dictionaries around the world.

    • Do your own homework instead of reading and taking something for what it claims to be!

    I have, actually–why don’t you do the same, instead of gulping the McCain campaign’s Kool-Aid?

    • This decision was NOT made by the legal system! It was made by a committee of people…

    Gee…just like most decisions made in the United States; what else is the Congress but a…..’committee of people’?

    • “…that are not Palin supporters and thus incapable of reaching an UNBIASED opinion!”

    So a lack of support for Mrs Palin is biased, but support for Mrs Palin must not be? Your “logic” defies plain English, even spoken (or written, as the case may be) slowly.

  83. 84 Julie P
    October 11, 2008 at 03:43

    Palin welcomed this with open arms last summer. She wanted this. She approved of it.

  84. 85 Jennifer
    October 11, 2008 at 03:57

    @ Amy

    How can that vote be accurate? Really? When the head of the committee, a democrat, said (on record) that he would use it for partisan advantage? And people want to say “Republicans” are drink the kool-aid. I am not a republican but if I were I would say give me a break.

    How can someone who has a job description including the power to fire someone at will abuse that power? Get it? It’s her right to decide if someone is not doing their job appropriately. If I was his boss, I probably would have fired him too. Drinking in a patrol car? Isn’t that against the law? That man was even offered another job which he refused. He quit. End of story. Nice try! 😀

    I really find this whole thing silly! 🙂 October surprise….more like pathetic surprise.

  85. 86 Kelsie in Houston
    October 11, 2008 at 04:01

    Jennifer:
    All right–let’s see your evidence about this committee head claiming he would use this for partisan advantage. That’s a bold claim: I hope you can substantiate it.

    • “I really find this whole thing silly!”

    As do I–almost as silly as Mrs Palin’s candidacy in the first place.

  86. 87 Jonathan
    October 11, 2008 at 04:02

    @Bert

    You said, when the inflated home prices “inevitably correct themselves.” But, as I already told you, US home prices had NOT corrected themselves since the 1930s. They went only up and up and up, year after year, as population went up, and incomes went up. It wasn’t “inevitable” that they would fall. To the contrary, it was perfectly reasonable to expect that they would do what they have always done: Keeep increasing.

    And nobody has to be “tricked” into buying a house. It’s the most important factor separating the rich from the poor in America; the best path to wealth by far. It’s the responsible thing to do. It’s the only chance most of us will have to buy a leveraged, tax-advantaged investment that (still) grows in value in the long run. Few young first-time buyers can manage to save 20% down payment, and few can qualify even if they have the income to pay, because of conservative lending rules. The relaxed guidelines of the last few years helped millions of responsible people buy homes that they now own without any trouble. I know some of them. Mostly, marginal people got in trouble, and speculators, and liars.

  87. 88 Bob in Queensland
    October 11, 2008 at 04:02

    @ Jennifer

    How can someone who has a job description including the power to fire someone at will abuse that power?

    I spent many years with “hire and fire” included in my job description. Yeah, I could fire people but if it did it without good cause (or for the wrong cause) the company and I could end up in court and lose. That’s the way things work.

  88. October 11, 2008 at 04:08

    From CNN: http://edition.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/10/palin.investigation/index.html

    Palin originally agreed to cooperate with the Legislative Council inquiry, and disclosed in August that her advisers had contacted Department of Public Safety officials nearly two dozen times regarding her ex-brother-in-law.

    But once she became Sen. John McCain’s running mate, her advisers began painting the investigation as a weapon of Democratic partisans.
    advertisement

    Ahead of Friday’s hearing, Palin supporters wearing clown costumes and carrying balloons denounced the probe as a “kangaroo court” and a “three-ring circus” led by supporters of Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama.

    Is it a case that Sarah Palin first agreed and then, without a blink of an eye accepted the job of running for VP – doesn’t this also bring into question all that she has been accusing Sen Obama of over the last few days?

  89. 90 Jonathan
    October 11, 2008 at 04:11

    @Amy

    I heard not 8 but 10 Republicans on that council. Of course, they may not have been all rabid Palin supporters, so ipso facto not “impartial.” Maybe terrorized by those terrorists that Obama pals around with, rearin’ their heads.

    @Roberto

    Not “used her influence.” “Abuse of power.” It’s a specific legal concept.

  90. 91 Dennis@OCC
    October 11, 2008 at 04:13

    Sarah Palin:
    should be very lucky that she was not accused of criminal
    misconduct–during the investigation.

    at least, she can say that she is only violated “ethics” rules….

    Dennis

  91. 92 Kelsie in Houston
    October 11, 2008 at 04:31

    Austrian far-right leader Joerg Haider dead in a car wreck:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7664846.stm

  92. 93 Dennis@OCC
    October 11, 2008 at 04:48

    @ The post at 4.31AM on 11 October 2008

    I want to send my condolences to the family, friends
    and the citizens of Austria…Following the passing
    of Joerg Haider…

    Dennis

  93. 94 Jennifer
    October 11, 2008 at 05:07

    @ Kelsie

    Check into Hollis French for more information. Better yet, just check everyone on the committee out better! 🙂 And recheck the stories too. They are now saying that a family grudge wasn’t the sole reason for Monegan being fired but was likely a contributing factor. Oh please! It’s like saying her pinkie is guilty but that’s all.

    How did SP abuse her power when Walter Monegan failed to do HIS job and fire someone who was apparently not of sound judgment or even following the law? Not to mention the budget issues that were not discussed in detail. On top of that, he was offered another job. SP has said that she wanted to take the department in a different direction. Might that be true? The commissioner later stated that no member of the Palin family forced him to fire Wooten. I would say that my mom raised me not to lie but please verify that too.

    I am willing to reevaluate my support of SP if she is found guilty in a court of law of a crime. However, I do not see that she did anything wrong. If it were my place to fire him, I would have fired him on the spot with a clear conscience, (a PUBLIC SAFETY commissioner) who thinks it is sound judgment to employ a cop that drinks in a cop car and shoots wildlife illegally? The fact that he was an ex in law is nothing but drama that democrats hope will tarnish her!

    Imagine if that trooper killed someone while driving drunk. Who would be to blame? They would want to know why the governor did nothing! Not to mention embezzlement or whatever the “budget issues” are.

  94. 95 Kelsie in Houston
    October 11, 2008 at 05:12

    @Jennifer:
    Come now–you made an assertion, now provide us with the evidence to support it. Saying, “Well, it’s there–go find it yourself” isn’t a good means of proving your point. You made the assertion, you provide the evidence. If we want to get tied up in legalese, that’s technically how the U.S. legal system works: the accuser must prove culpability. You accused the chair of partisanship and smear tactics: prove it.

    You’re second-guessing a council with fourteen members all of whom plowed through reams of documents to reach their decisions. You can’t simply dismiss them with such light-handedness by comparing it to such statements as, “I would say that my mom raised me not to lie but please verify that too.”

    No one is asking you to reevaluate your support–but the council’s findings are clear: Mrs Palin, in their considered and bipartisan opinion, abused her authority as governor for personal gain.

    Imagine if that trooper killed someone while driving drunk. Who would be to blame? They would want to know why the governor did nothing!

    This is a straw-man and doesn’t do your argument any advantage.

  95. 96 Amy
    October 11, 2008 at 05:16

    Jennifer,

    By your argument, Bill Clinton shouldn’t have been raked over the coals. He wasn’t convicted of a crime but he was impeached. Other politicians have fallen because of ethics violations – think Tom Delay. Whether you like it or not, her credibility (which was tenuous at best) is shot. Don’t try to blame this on Obama when this all started back in the summer when she wasn’t even being considered for the VP job.

  96. 97 Bob in Queensland
    October 11, 2008 at 05:16

    @ Jennifer

    Well, I see two possible scenarios here:

    If you’re right then ten members of the Republican party in Alaska are so anti-Palin that they voted in manner guaranteed to embarrass her as a VP candidate. Since these people know her well and have worked with her, I’d find this lack of endorsement very worrying indeed.

    Option two, of course, is that you’re wrong and an unbiased committee have been critical of Palin’s conduct.

    Either way, it doesn’t bode well for Sarah Palin and her people-management skills.

  97. 98 Jennifer
    October 11, 2008 at 05:31

    @ Kelsie

    I did not say well, it’s there-go find it yourself. However, if you found it yourself it wouldn’t be coming from me (a rogue SP supporter!). So, just do it.

    Why should their opinion (not bi-partisan) matter to me? Are they a court of law? Will they or are they even capable of charging SP with a crime? Because they are not a court of law I do not find their decision credible.

    I am not grabbing at straws. Ultimately, it would come back to SP being responsible for her employees.

    You keep mentioning that SP fired the commissioner for personal gain. How?

  98. 99 Kelsie in Houston
    October 11, 2008 at 05:40

    Jennifer:
    Clearly your assertion regarding the head of the council was false or based on information untenable in the public arena (it might be “biased”, for example), in light of your inability to provide us with the data to make our own evaluation of your statement.

    Why should their opinion (not bi-partisan) matter to me? Are they a court of law? Will they or are they even capable of charging SP with a crime? Because they are not a court of law I do not find their decision credible.

    Jennifer: there are other decision-making organs in the United States besides the courts. Your assertion that the council’s decision is somehow immaterial simply because it is not a court is fallacious at best, dangerously naive at worst. I suggest you find yourself a good civics textbook before attempting to undercut the council’s decision based on such weak argumentation.

    I am not grabbing at straws…

    No, they’re not straws…more like strands of microscopic cilia…

    You’ve the right to your opinion, but you are trying to force your negative opinion of the council’s decision into the realm of fact–that isn’t going to fly, certainly if you remain unwilling to offer up a substantive defense of your claims.

  99. 100 Julie P
    October 11, 2008 at 05:40

    Palin wanted the investigation. She invited it, that was until she became a vice presidential candidate, then everything about it became wrong. It’s a political convenience to cry foul.

  100. 101 Amy
    October 11, 2008 at 05:41

    Jennifer,

    Again, your argument that no crime has been committed so she shouldn’t be reprimanded holds no water. I would hope you would see that in politics, especially at the national level, image and public perception really do matter. Tom Delay hasn’t been convicted of any crimes (yet) but he was found to have violated ethics rules in congress. His political career is over. If you still want to support her, do so as is your right as an American. However, if the McCain campaign keeps banging the “judgement” drum they are going to end up getting beat over the head with their own hypocrisy.

  101. 102 Jennifer
    October 11, 2008 at 05:41

    @ Amy

    We will have to wait and see but I seriously doubt that this is going to shatter SP’s credibility. It is a smear. If it were a court of law, I would trust it as credible. However, I do not believe this committee to be unbiased when members of it are sending campaign contributions to Obama and saying that the McCain camp will be getting an October surprise. Apparently, they didn’t even have to investigate anything as their decision was already made!

  102. 103 Jens
    October 11, 2008 at 05:43

    Venessa and all,

    sorry for the “that one” monkier. i forgot it was on and mocked it.

    yes photography is art and i love it. i have only acouple out of thousands I am proud of. i guess painting from what i have done it would be one in one hundred. photography is under estimated.

  103. 104 Amy
    October 11, 2008 at 05:47

    Jennifer,

    One member of the committee was saying “October surprise.” Do you honestly think that one individual has that much influence to sway 11 other committee members? Enough influence to make it a unanimous decision? I find that very hard to believe. I also don’t see how you can see this as a smear campaign when all of this started, with her cooperation, well before she was even thought of for the role of VP.

  104. 105 Julie P
    October 11, 2008 at 05:47

    Somehow I feel a vast left wing conspiracy is going to get brought up.

  105. 106 Kelsie in Houston
    October 11, 2008 at 05:48

    Bipartisan:

    • An adjective indicating that a committee or group is composed of members of both major political parties… (www.legis.state.ga.us/legis/2005_06/house/kids/glossary.htm)

    • “of, relating to, or involving members of two parties ; specifically : marked by or involving cooperation, agreement, and compromise between two major political parties…” (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bipartisan)

    • In a two-party system (such as in the United States), bipartisan refers to any bill, act, resolution, or any other action of a political body in which both of the major political parties are in agreement. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bi-partisan)

    Jennifer:
    The council’s decision was bipartisan. Whether you or anyone else chooses to accept this is totally immaterial–it does not change the bipartisan aspect of the council. Sorry.

  106. 107 Jennifer
    October 11, 2008 at 05:59

    @ Kelsie

    I am not in any way trying to discredit this committee. When they make statements that convey their minds are already made up regarding the matter they do it themselves!

    They are not a court of law. Will they cuff her and stuff her? Aren’t people innocent until proven guilty in a court of law?

    I am not unwilling to “offer up” evidence of my claims. I asked you to look for it yourself seeing as anything coming from me you more than likely would not take into consideration. In that case, I won’t waste my time.

    In my opinion, this is a politically motivated smear by the democrats. Both parties are pounding the judgment drum. All this does is allow people to make what they will of SP. Not everyone is going to look at just what is in print. Some people are going to consider everything about this issue.

  107. 108 rick
    October 11, 2008 at 06:05

    @ julie
    it is pretty obvious that tricking Republicans into nominating SP then bringing her down was a leftist plot. If they had nominated someone who was articulate, intelligent and experienced, Obama wouldn’t have a chance!

  108. 109 Kelsie in Houston
    October 11, 2008 at 06:09

    Jennifer:

    “I am not in any way trying to discredit this committee.”

    It was made by a committee of people, much like most on this blog, that are not Palin supporters and thus incapable of reaching an UNBIASED opinion!
    –3.38am

    They are not a court of law. Will they cuff her and stuff her? Aren’t people innocent until proven guilty in a court of law?
    No one’s advocating the “cuffing and stuffing” of anyone, Jennifer. There are arguments aplenty without you reacting to phantasms. The council returned a decision indicating that she engaged in abuse of power–whether she is prosecuted for that (as governor) or not is, I assume, up to the state legislature as a committee of the whole.

    I am not unwilling to “offer up” evidence of my claims. I asked you to look for it yourself seeing as anything coming from me you more than likely would not take into consideration. In that case, I won’t waste my time.

    You have absolutely no basis for this assumption: I asked for the information from you because you made the claim. You either can’t or won’t provide it. This fact cannot be written off on my unwillingness to take your claims into “consideration.” The fact that you won’t provide the information that led to your claims of bias effectively prevents me (or anyone else here) from evaluating your accusation based on your evidence.

    In my opinion, this is a politically motivated smear by the democrats. Both parties are pounding the judgment drum. All this does is allow people to make what they will of SP. Not everyone is going to look at just what is in print. Some people are going to consider everything about this issue.

    Fine. I disagree. There is no concrete evidence of a “smear” here, certainly not one that can be connected to Mr Obama. This line of argumentation simply isn’t panning out, Jennifer.

  109. October 11, 2008 at 06:19

    Jennifer

    They are not a court of law. Will they cuff her and stuff her? Aren’t people innocent until proven guilty in a court of law?

    The whole point of the matter is context and circumstance. Ms Palin has been obfuscating over the last few days the credibility of Sen Obama and his right as well as his ambition to be president of the USA.

    Sarah Palin said long, long before she was even considered for VP that she would comply with the commission into her conduct – we have to credit her for that. She was then thrown into the public eye with her pick – many, many people were surprised at this.

    What has come to pass is that now she is found to be in countenance with a law of ethics, of which she signed into the legislature of Alaska, she does not, nor do her fellow GOP members agree with. If you wish to debate the whole scenario you have to give positive evidence of your argument – Sarah Palin was found guilty of going against the ethics she so proudly espoused – that is there as written. You can’t now say that this is a smear campaign when it is said so because of a campaign – this is Alaska, not the USA – it had nothing to do with the Democrats or Obama – it is an Alaskan problem but now, because she is the GOP VP pick, it is a national one – Sarah Palin brought this upon herself for abusing her power – it really is as simple as that.

  110. 111 Vijay
    October 11, 2008 at 08:40

    @Dennis@OCC
    How are you feeling,just wondered because Joerg Haider was a Neo Nazi,good riddance.

  111. 112 Vijay
    October 11, 2008 at 08:45

    Palin can do a Jimmy Swaggert,go on TV and say how sorry she is and it will never happen again ,she only did it out loyalty to her sister and ask for the peoples forgiveness.
    It might even give the Republicans a boost in the polls.

  112. 113 Bryan
    October 11, 2008 at 08:47

    Matthew October 11, 2008 at 2:20 am
    Quite clearly she doesn’t posses anything being remotely connected to intelligence at all, is truly conceited, with the pretence of being genuine.

    Pangolin-California October 11, 2008 at 3:13 am
    The american presidential election is pretty much down to the calm guy with the good voice, Obama, vs. a tired confused old man and his dim, slutty, harpy, female protege.

    Hell, could you guys be any more overstated and insulting? What’s the lady ever done to you?

    Perhaps everyone who is jumping up and down in glee at the prospect of the defeat of Sarah Palin and John McCain should recall that it ain’t over till the fat lady sings.

    You might also like to note how quickly the BBC pounced on the Palin verdict and contrast that with the BBC’s extreme reluctance to publicise the infinitely more serious allegations against Obama. Perhaps the BBC sincerely believes that it is not in the public interest to know about Obama’s long and intimate association with anti-American subversives and unrepentant terrorists. That is infinitely more troubling than Sarah Palin’s abuse of power. BBC bias? What bias?!

  113. 114 Pangolin-California
    October 11, 2008 at 09:02

    Will- The problem with your argument is that the essential nature of the GOP is that the executives are expected to abuse their power. A very large percentage of the Republican party base supported President Bush even when it became very clear that he had ordered the torture of captives in direct contravention to the oath he swore to protect the constitution.

    The whole point of gaining power for these people is to grab as much of the spoils as possible for your team by whatever means possible. They simply do not get what an “abuse of power” could be by one of their tribe.

  114. 115 Bob in Queensland
    October 11, 2008 at 09:06

    @ Bryan

    Your post actually contains the key words that are significant here.

    The Palin story is the official “verdict” of a committee set up to investigate and rule on allegations of unethical behaviour and abuse of power. As such, the unethical behaviour is now a FACT and therefore a genuine news story.

    The “allegations” against Obama are just that: allegations. They are being promulgated by the party opposing him in a tightly fought election campaign. As such, they have to be treated with extreme caution. Obama’s serving on a charitable committee with a man who is now a university professor but who advocated the overthrow of the USA in the past (when Obama was a child!) does not in any way count as proof the Democrat candidate is unpatriotic. If the BBC reported unfounded allegations as fact THEN they would biased.

  115. 116 Jonathan
    October 11, 2008 at 09:08

    @ 3-1/2 hours down the tubes

    Wow. To mangle and paraphrase Churchill, seldom have I seen so many expend so much blood, toil, tears, and sweat, for so little.

    I did encounter the very attractive expressiion “cuff her and stuff her” for my first time though. I like it.

    So has everybody finally given up then, and limped, moaning and holding their heads, off to bed, or at least away from the computer, as the case and time zone may be?

  116. 117 Bryan
    October 11, 2008 at 09:16

    Been trying to find some info on this:

    Can Sarah Palin be impeached as Governor of Alaska when she’s the VP candidate?

    In light of the fact that Bill Clinton was impeached but that didn’t cost him the presidency, what would be the consequences of impeachment for Palin?

    Being imguavament can lead to impearment as well as impeachment.

  117. 118 Pangolin-California
    October 11, 2008 at 09:17

    Bryan~ I would have to drink some pretty powerful kool-aid before I’m going to believe that Barack Obama got this far with so much as a mouse skeleton in his closet. This is a guy with one car, one house and one wife (ever!!)

    If you’re going to accuse him of being a member of the Weather Underground when he was eight years old go ahead. It’s your reputation. Even the prosecutor of the Weather Underground doesn’t buy that old hide you’re selling. Look here

    It is actually very hard to be more insulting about Sara Palin than her own performances under questioning. I mean I’ll get back to you on that. Do you really identify with that?

  118. 119 Bryan
    October 11, 2008 at 09:55

    Bob in Queensland October 11, 2008 at 9:06 am,

    Dunno if we can go so far as to say that, “The unethical behaviour is now fact.” Let’s not forget that this is one stage in a process to determine guilt or innocence, though I’m unclear as to what that process involves and since America is now asleep I’m having difficulty finding out.

    I thought someone would highlight the difference between the formal findings of the committee and the allegations against Obama. Nobody is asking the BBC to report allegations as fact, just to do roughly as much bashing of Obama as it does of Palin. Let’s fact it Bob, the BBC is so biased in its coverage of these elections it is no longer even hiding it. I posted a link here a few days ago to a fascinating exchange between CNN and Jon Voigt. He has the damage that the partisan media does quite accurately assessed. Here it is again in case someone might like to have a look at it:

    I know that Obama was a child when Ayers committed his offences but let’s not forget that Ayers is unrepentant. And what about communist agitator Saul Alinsky? But perhaps the most serious thing of all – and this is not an allegation, simply fact – is Obama’s close association with “Reverend” Wright. I have listened to that anti-white racist and subversive ranting in his sermons against the white man and I don’t see how anyone who didn’t hold those same beliefs could possibly remain in that church for more than five minutes, leave alone twenty years. We are not talking about a preacher making an occasional reference to race but a raving racist lunatic. Surely Obama would have walked out in disgust if he were not in sympathy with Wright’s position?

  119. 120 Jonathan
    October 11, 2008 at 10:09

    @Bryan~

    Of course she could be impeached while running for VP; why ever not? There’s no immunity that attaches to running for anything. Is that a trick question of some sort?

    Of course, it’s got absolutely nothing at all to do with Bill Clinton, except for the word “impeach.” Unfortunately, I’m informed that she won’t be impeached, at least not for this, and not now. She’s transgressed in a lot of other ways, and has stepped on a lot of toes, though. As far as I know, she has never served on a board of a foundation on which also sat someone who had been a radical many years ago. In fact, I’d venture to say it’s improbable that she sits on any boards. The thought makes me giggle.

    By the by, the outfit in question with the suspicious board of directors is, I think, an Annenberg operation. Mr. Annenberg occupies a space on the right fringe of the right wing of America. The whole thing is to laugh.

  120. 121 Bryan
    October 11, 2008 at 10:17

    Pangolin-California October 11, 2008 at 9:17 am

    I’ll get back to you on that.

    That’s insulting? If she had told Katie she looked like a tart that might have been insulting.

    My comment above might have rebutted your point about Ayers. Obsama is a subversive. But I guess you want someone in power who will pave the way for the destruction of the US.

  121. 122 Jonathan
    October 11, 2008 at 10:27

    Bryan~

    It’s an interesting mentality, this notion that there’s something suspicious, or dangerous, about a person who has even fleeting contact with someone whose views are different, because that person’s views might have somehow contaminated the person in question.

    Do you only have friends and associates who think exactly as you do? Has none of them ever been involved in anything that would today be considered unsavory? If the answer is that everyone in your social and professional circles is above reproach from any quarter, that circumstance seems unlikely to promise much growth. Our current president is like that; he famously does not tolerate any differing views, and he is utterly devoid of intellectual curiosity. As we’ve seen, this is a narrow, small trait and most dangerous in a president.

    If, on the other hand, you know people who differ in some way from you, which might include something in their dim, distant pasts that falls short of your own lofty standards of conduct, then congratulations. I’d guess you find these to be relationships to be interesting and stimulating. Do you ever find yourself compelled to engage in whatever behavior they did years ago? I’d guess not.

  122. 123 Bryan
    October 11, 2008 at 10:47

    Jonathan October 11, 2008 at 10:09 am,

    OK, I only asked, don’t get excited. I’m about as knowledgeable as the BBC when it comes to the different layers of government in the US and where their responsibilities and powers begin and end. The question I had in mind was whether impeachment would effectively end her candidacy as VP. I brought up Clinton because he remained in office though impeached.

    I’m not in a hurry. I can wait till America wakes up to find out more about this.

  123. 124 Dan
    October 11, 2008 at 11:03

    In Pakistan’s tribal areas Pakistani Muslims banded together to decide how to decide how to deal with a resurgent Taliban.
    Unable to understand how to participate in any political process the Taliban Muslims resorted to the only process they know and detonated a car bomd at the meeting murdering over 40 innocent people….Allah Akbar!!
    Now a massive battle is underway in the Pakistani tribal areas by Pakistani Muslims trying to destroy the Taliban. They are being killed and their homes destroyed.
    Perhaps it has dawned upon the Pakistani Muslims that there is a better way while they remain true to their way of life and faith.
    Have Muslims in that area turned a page? Is there a lesson for Muslims in the West?

  124. 125 Jonathan
    October 11, 2008 at 11:12

    Bryan, I only suspected a trick because you are so exquisitely well informed about American politics that I was sure you knew. I’d still love to know how we merit your attention, concentration, and passion.

    I’m not excited, but I am both American and awake, and since you ask so nicely, I’ll enlighten you, although you typically ignored the questions I asked you in an attempt to have some dialogue, hiowever attenuated, about your personal perspective on the whole guilt-by-association silliness. Oh well. I shall spare you the tedium of using the Google or otherwise investigating this angels-on-a-pin stuff.

    First, as I said, she won’t be impeached, at least not for this, and not now. She technically could be, as I also said, but it’s a matter of political discretion, and she won’t be.

    Hypothetically, then, the question of whether, if she were impeached, she would be damaged goods as a VP candidate is also a political one, rather than a technical or legal one. Toward that end, impeachment is a long, slow process, or at least it’s a safe bet that a small team of attorneys could make it so, and surely would. So even if the machinery were set in motion today, impeachment would not take place until long after the presidential election in November. If she lost that election, and returned to Alaska as governor, she would then face the music of eventual impeachment. If she won, heaven help us all, impeachment in Alaska would of course become moot. She would, however, be subject to impeachment as VP, although being an idiot is not an offense that merits it. You’re welcome.

    Speaking of unsavory associations, since that’s the bottom of the barrel to which the republicans have descended, Palin is not without her own unsavory friends and associates. There’s that godawful snake handling, witch-hunting preacher who laid hands on her to drive away Satan, to start. Do feel free to ignore that too.

  125. 126 Jonathan
    October 11, 2008 at 11:24

    Bryan~

    Do you really, truly not see the difference between doing something wrong, and lying about it, and obstructing investigations of it, on the one hand, and serving on a board of directors that also contains someone who used to be a radical, when you were a small child in a distant land, and not doing anything wrong, not lying, not obstructing, on the other?

    More amazing yet, looking back, you actually profess to believe that an “accusation” against a person’s associates is actually an accusation against the person himself, and that somehow it is more damaging and serious than an accusation against a person for actually doing something wrong.

    This doesn’t seem incongruous, illogical, and absurd, just reading it?

  126. 127 Bryan
    October 11, 2008 at 11:58

    Jonathan October 11, 2008 at 10:27 am,

    Forget the pop psychology. I’m not running for president of the US. Obama is. And we are not talking about minor, youthful indiscretions here, which can and should be forgiven, but serious, enduring, long-term faults. Since links I post are beneath your notice, I’ll direct the following article to people here who might be open to having their assumptions about Obama as saviour of America challenged:

    http://cashill.com/natl_general/did_bill_ayers_write_1.htm

    And here’s some more damning info on Obama and Ayers:

    http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/ayers-dohrn-obama-tie-shouldnt-be-dismissed/2/

    Obama campaign manager David Axelrod and other campaign surrogates are now furtively trying to claim today that Obama “didn’t know the history” of Ayers and Dohrn as the leaders of America’s most infamous left-wing terrorist group when Obama met at their home for a political “coming out” in 1995….

    By 1995, Barack Obama had known Bill Ayers at least eight years since their shared involvement in the Alliance for Better Chicago Schools, if not longer. Bernardine Dohrn, once labeled “the most dangerous woman in America” by none other than J. Edgar Hoover, was also well known as the inspiration for the 1988 movie Running on Empty. Subtle terrorists they were not.

    Dohrn is Ayers’ wife:

    A Chicago district attorney named Richard Elrod was seriously injured in the Weatherman riot that erupted during the Chicago “Days of Rage” in October 1969, and he was paralyzed for life as a result. Dohrn later led a celebration of Elrod’s paralysis by leading her comrades in a parody of a Bob Dylan song — “Lay, Elrod, Lay.”

    Dohrn also celebrated the murder of Sharon Tate and others by the drug-crazed Manson gang. The charming friends of Barack Obama.

  127. October 11, 2008 at 12:01

    60 Jennifer October 11, 2008 at 2:37 am
    Re: Sarah Palin’s Abuse of Power
    3 words: Obama smear tactic!

    The (rest of the) world did not know of the existence of Sarah Palin when the investigation began.

    from the BBC: “The investigation into the affair began before Mr McCain selected Mrs Palin as his running mate in August.” (words: 54, chars: 327, posts: 1st today)

  128. 129 Pangolin-California
    October 11, 2008 at 12:11

    Jonathan- Nice try. It’s interesting watching you dealing with this. A very well constructed Socratic argument defying the temptation of “you can lead a whore to Chaucer but you can’t make her think” cynics.

    Applause.

  129. October 11, 2008 at 12:31

    65 Luci Smith October 11, 2008 at 2:44 am
    But I don’t understand you at all in the second posting when you start talking about guns and having bars on your windows and freezers and raising dairy animals. I grew up in an environment where guns were readily available and guns got used in robberies and arguments between friends and family members. I abhor guns and weapons of any kind.

    Thank you, Luci. I am not a fan of guns, either. That is probably why I mentioned the bars on the windows. Having a gun in the house is only begging the opportunistic thief to use it to kill you.

    By the way, do not forget free range in addition to organic. I also like the though of community farms, community markets, etc. We probably agree on more than you initially realised. (words: 139, chars: 767, posts: 2nd today)

  130. 131 Pangolin-California
    October 11, 2008 at 12:34

    Now I’m in trouble. In 1988 I worked with a guy who used to be a Khmer Rouge cadre during the year one genocide. Of course we were both 13 in 1978; he was a soldier and I was in eighth grade. He managed to escape a year later. But the Khmer Rouge were active into the late 90’s.

    Are we going to try me for genocide? Based upon the train of accusation against Obama I must be as guilty of the genocide as Pol Pot.

    I never even got a decent bowl of noodles out of the deal.

  131. 132 Kelsie in Houston
    October 11, 2008 at 12:42

    Morning, Pink!

    The (rest of the) world did not know of the existence of Sarah Palin when the investigation began.

    from the BBC: “The investigation into the affair began before Mr McCain selected Mrs Palin as his running mate in August.” (words: 54, chars: 327, posts: 1st today)

    What’s disturbing about this is the implication for Mr McCain’s vetting process. A gentleman who has the political experience Mr McCain does would recognise the potential ramifications this story could have on a campaign, even if only in the realm of media image.

  132. 133 Bryan
    October 11, 2008 at 12:44

    Jonathan October 11, 2008 at 11:12 am,

    I’ve acknowledged a couple of times on this site that I’m not well-informed on American politics (though not in total ignorance thereof) so why keep pushing the issue? Is it just to irritate or is it that you think I’m not qualified to comment on this particular election? More than the election itself, my interest is in the media bias in reporting on it. People here go into scorn mode at the outrageous suggestion that Fox News is less biased than the BBC, but can’t explain why Fox at least allows healthy debate between opposing sides while the BBC goes out of its way to promote those whose views it agrees with and stifle the views of the other side. And who will the BBC support in any conflict or contest? That is as predictable as night following day.

    I steer away from personal revelations on a forum like this because I think it just distracts from the issues to be debated. Until such time as this blog changes its name to World Have Your Quibble or World Have Your Petty Gripe or World Have Your Personal Vendetta, that’ll be my position.

  133. 134 Robert
    October 11, 2008 at 13:01

    To try and elevate this from a repeat of the Palin bushing, this is the second incident of a politician firing a police official that has hit the headlines in the last week.

    The first Boris Johnson has a conversation with Ian Blair from the Metropolitan police after which Sir Blair quits. There are claims that the move was politically motivated by the new mayor wanting to do it for PR reasons (Blair had a somewhat checkered time in the role.)

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7648664.stm

    The ex mayor, from the opposing party and a supporter of Ian Blair, defends Johnson’s role saying he acted within the his power.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7663920.stm

    So what should the role of politicians be in policing? They obviously set the laws which the police enforce, but should that be where the influence ends?

  134. October 11, 2008 at 13:08

    I was wondering if people would be onboard with being allowed to use either part of your social security or part of your retirement towards your house on a monthly basis? It could be untaxed. If the house is sold before retirement that portion would have to be either used as a down payment, redeposited in a retirement or social security fund, or put in another long term investment. Maybe just that portion cold be insured by the government if the house goes belly up.

  135. 136 selena in Canada
    October 11, 2008 at 13:23

    Bernardine Dohrn, once labeled “the most dangerous woman in America” by none other than J. Edgar Hoover,

    Please, if you want to demonstrate that someone is dangerous, the opinion of Hoover won’t do it. Just being a woman made you dangerous to Hoover!

  136. 137 Robert
    October 11, 2008 at 13:23

    Pangolin

    I wouldn’t think your in too much trouble. A few years ago an Al Queeda cell was busted in the UK in town where I lived when I was 7. Reading the descriptions of those arrested it turns out they were my age and had gone to my school, so by some basic stats on the number of classes we had, I’m almost certain to have been a class mate to one of these terrorists (no names where given out for legal reasons and I can’t remember my class mates from that long ago either). Yet given that I’m still have been cleared by both the UK and US government to work in locations and materials considered sensitive enough for us to be vetted for terror links.

  137. 138 Bryan
    October 11, 2008 at 13:30

    And shouldn’t y’all be worried about Obama and Ayers financing and training the Acorn people – you know, the Democrat voter fraud organisation?

    http://directorblue.blogspot.com/2008/10/barack-obama-acorn-doesnt-fall-far-from.html

    No, I guess you’ll sweep that one under the carpet as well. And numerous left wing media organisations who should be doing their jobs and bringing us these revelations will instead be energetically wielding the broom.

  138. 139 Kelsie in Houston
    October 11, 2008 at 13:40

    @Dwight:
    It would depend…you would still be investing in a property that does not have guaranteed value; but, as you mentioned, a part of that could be insured. Folks who are retired–and thus at greater risk–would need either greater insurance protection or the ability to simply opt-out, imo. It is late in life, by that time, to assume such risk in the quest to become a homeowner. That being said, as a younger (potential) investor, I would be interested by the chance to divert withholding into a home savings program; people often save only when forced to…

  139. 140 Pangolin-California
    October 11, 2008 at 13:42

    @ Dwight- The basic issue is that houses all over were overpriced based upon a market fed by inflated assesments and loans that couldn’t be paid back by the buyers. Purchasing these mortgages at prices that exceed the ability of people to pay for the houses involved is nuts.

    If you have a former real estate agent living in a house with a $2200 monthly mortgage but that will rent for $1500 monthly that person has good reason to walk away and declare bankruptcy.

    If the market is going to recover there has to be a rapid drop in housing prices or a rapid growth in wages. Simply shifting the pittance of Social Security payments in the future to housing today won’t fix this problem. The owner could STILL go bankrupt and then be a burden to the state in old age.

    Resolution will come from: a) higher wages b) lower house prices or 3) both.

  140. 141 Kelsie in Houston
    October 11, 2008 at 13:53

    @Pangolin:
    Just don’t run for president 😉

  141. 142 Robert
    October 11, 2008 at 13:55

    Dwight

    My problem with the scheme is two fold. First it may just drive the property market into further boom and busts. A couple would be likely in such a system to hold onto a large house until they retire rather than downsizing to release money sooner. This restricts housing for younger families and drives up prices.

    Second, there is still risk for those who use property as an investment. We’ve suffered two property crashes in 15 years in the UK (91/92, and 07/08). Those selling at the crash and the 2 years afterward would see their pensions destroyed, your talking about 3 in 15 or 20% of retirees. Your scheme therefore doesn’t remove the risk.

    What we need to do is come up with a way of getting people to diversify and have a spread of incomes for retirement.

  142. October 11, 2008 at 13:58

    I do have to thank all of the major players of this years campaign for one thing. They have added another comedy channel to my programming. FOX News. These guys have grown so thin that is humorous. From their “breaking news” about Sarah Palins untouched up photo, to angry black republicans calling for the network to stop showing the SNL episodes, it is just funny.

  143. 144 Pangolin-California
    October 11, 2008 at 13:58

    Bryon- You are right to fear the dread terrorist group ACORN. Should an ACORN cell form in your neighborhood and find that your name isn’t on the voter lists they will do the evil deed of knocking on your door early on Saturday mornings and forcing you to scramble for a robe. Then they will very politely wave a registration form in your face, assault you with pamphlets and, saints preserve us, buttons. Oh, no, that isn’t all.

    They’re going to ask you for a donation. Thank you politely and walk across your lawn in a terrible hurry to get to the next house.

    The horror.

    If you haven’t noticed the Bush administration is being investigated for using the Justice Department to influence elections. Subverting the democratic (small d) process is their stock in trade.

    Don’t you have some WMD’s to look for in Iraq or something; speaking of lies.

  144. 145 Julie P
    October 11, 2008 at 14:03

    @Pangolin,

    In the early 90’s I was invited to a dinner party by some friends of a friend who was a friend of someone with a very shady past. The person with a very shady past was someone who had been a member of the Black Panthers. (I no longer remember his name.) Even though I was extremely young when the Black Panthers were running around and doing there thing, 6 maybe, I guess that means that I advocate shoot outs with the police.

  145. 146 Kelsie in Houston
    October 11, 2008 at 14:04

    @Dwight:
    The sweet symphony of desperation…I’ll give them this: FOX has done its level best to downplay the recent debacle re Mrs Palin and has done a rather good job at it. That, of course, isn’t “bias.” The BBC, in the meantime, has moved on to other important things (the situation in Zimbabwe)–that, of course, is “bias” because the BBC aren’t focused on Mr Obama’s tenuous links with terrorists (and because a good portion of the electorate is scratching their heads: “Zimbabwe? Where’s that? Are they on our side?“).

    @Pangolin:
    I was ok with all that until…buttons. Buttons? Come now! How can you support an organization that hands out little circular pieces of metal with a sharp point on them? That’s endangering the public welfare! Why, you terrorist, you!

  146. 147 Kelsie in Houston
    October 11, 2008 at 14:14

    @the parlous state of the global economy:

    Mr Bush spoke this morning again on the economy, warning against unilateral action in the quest to find a solution to the growing economic malaise–however, no new solutions were announced following the conclusion of the G7 meet at the White House:

    • the BBC:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7665192.stm
    • CNN International:
    http://edition.cnn.com/2008/BUSINESS/10/11/financial.crisis/index.html
    • MSNBC:
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27129830/
    • International Herald-Tribune:
    http://iht.com/articles/2008/10/11/business/bush.php

  147. 148 Pangolin-California
    October 11, 2008 at 14:23

    @ Kelsie~ These are buttons that have been floating in the bottom of canvas pamphlet totes since 1972 along with dried apples, shrunken heads and bits of whole wheat and peanut butter. Mysteriously the pins remain razor sharp despite the visible rust on them.

    These things are potent biological weapons carrying virii capable of giving you a sudden craving for tofu and corduroy skirts. One prick of that button and three weeks later you’ll wake up in a Whole Foods market with $150 of mixed grains in a single hemp grocery bag. Hanging from a bandolier will be a steel flask full of deadly, pure, di-hydrogen monoxide capable of killing a grown man with a dose as small as 2500 deciliters.

    ‘Ware the buttons.

  148. 149 Bob in Queensland
    October 11, 2008 at 14:38

    @ Julie P

    Does the same “guilt by association” work in reverse? Back in the 1980s I was caught by the press ASSOCIATING WITH MAGGIE THATCHER.

    Does this destroy my supposedly-liberal credentials on the blog and place me firmly in the conservative camp?

    I know that, since meeting her, I’ve had difficulty suppressing the urge to espouse a free market ideology–and sometimes at night I dress in dark blue and sneak out to bash unions with my handbag for a few hours.

  149. 150 Julie P
    October 11, 2008 at 14:49

    @Bob,

    Yes, and you have a penchant for 60’s hairdo’s and lots of hairspray. 🙂

  150. 151 Pangolin-California
    October 11, 2008 at 15:06

    @ Bob~ A Margeret Thatcher handbag? How could you? I could forgive dum-dum rounds or white phosphorous artillery shells but a Maggie Thatcher handbag is clearly against the Geneva Conventions.

    Why am I feeling like Maggie Thatcher and Richard Nixon would look shockingly liberal if you dropped them into todays political scene. Nixon, that EPA creating enviro, would have to hang with the Greens.

  151. 152 Roberto
    October 11, 2008 at 15:18

    RE “” A gentleman who has the political experience Mr McCain does would recognise the potential ramifications this story could have on a campaign, even if only in the realm of media image. ””
    ——————————————————————————————————-

    ——– It’s was a non-issue except for the lipstick on a pig media darlings who needed a new subject their little hair coiffed glee club can properly address without straining credibility.

    By all accounts Palin has reinvigorated his campaign and clearly designed to turn out the base in the election. She has dominated the other 3 male candidates in media reports combined. She is currently only topped by the global financial meltdown which may well turn out to be THE main event that changes the first century of the 3rd millennium.

  152. 153 Bruce Sickles
    October 11, 2008 at 15:31

    Bryan-I did go to the links you provided to support your assetions of serious connections in Obama’s past. The complicated meanderings of the links between Obama and Dohrn was the most suprising tale of guilt I’ve ever seen.

    As far as Obama’s twenty years of listening to Rev. Wright we should not forget that there were countless acts of violence commited agaisnst black people simply because they were black people. Things that Rev. Wright witnessed and things that Rev. Wright has obviously strong opinions about.

  153. 154 Roberto
    October 11, 2008 at 16:07

    RE “guilt by association”
    ———————————————————————————————-

    ——— In the interest of fair disclosure in advance of any investigations, I confess I was a good friend with an architect who partied in GDubs circle (BC years) and shared snorts of various miracle powders and flammable elixers of youthful abandon.

    Alas, he never abandoned his youthful abandon and had to exit this life, so the tidbit became some forgotten political banter we used to engage in until recently at the wedding of a friends daughter which brought together conservative denizens of Dallas to the liberal Hill Country.

    A purty little thing in her flimsy but artful bridesmaid outfit took an interest in me as a local exotic and started in about liberals and hippies. Naturally I wanted to establish my conservative credentials so I mentioned my friend, which caused a dramatic snarling leap at me, punctuated with a naughty epitaph and flashing teeth snapping just short of the dangly part of my ear.

    The poor thing was obviously a little overcome by the occasion, and apologized profusely, but the point being that past associations and politics can be a deadly in combination with other things, including the media and voters.

  154. 155 Pangolin-California
    October 11, 2008 at 16:08

    About this:

    By all accounts Palin has reinvigorated his campaign and clearly designed to turn out the base in the election. She has dominated the other 3 male candidates in media reports combined. She is currently only topped by the global financial meltdown which may well turn out to be THE main event that changes the first century of the 3rd millennium.

    You do realize that the collected biomass of the media and blogosphere cannot simply get over the fact that a lightweight of this caliber was presented as a possible POTUS? We have to keep checking to see if she really is that stupid and she keeps rewarding us with verification that yes, she is.

    Have you noticed that the stock market takes an especially nasty dive the day after any Sara Palin speech or interview is televised?

    I mean, McCain is fighting to hang on to Nebraska for dog’s sake. Nebraska?

  155. 156 Bryan
    October 11, 2008 at 16:24

    Pangolin-California October 11, 2008 at 1:58 pm,

    Well, you guys can joke around and I like a laugh as well as the next guy but all you are doing of course is conveniently avoiding the difficult issues in the debate. Acorn, the Obama support group, is currently under investigation for voter fraud. The BBC and others have been all over the Palin investigation for some time now like ants on honey. Now let’s see them give a little weight to the Acorn issue. Obama has little to do with Acorn you’ll probably claim: his daughter went to preschool for a week with the daughter of the third cousin of the ex-wife of a volunteer who worked for Acorn for a day cleaning the offices and was tragically run over by a bus on his way home.

    In fact, Obama acted as Acorn’s lawyer, funded it to the tune of a cool million dollars and trained its staff. Hell, no connection there then.

  156. 157 Robert
    October 11, 2008 at 16:25

    Roberto

    I agree this will be jumped on by the anti Palin brigade and also that she has reinvigorated the campaign but there is an issue that has not been mentioned yet. Palin has demonstrated that, although she didn’t do anything illegal (and may have had good reason for removing the officer), she can’t follow procedures within a Government structure. These procedures are the checks and balances that maintain a functioning democracy. Without them democracy is just a word and bears no resemblance to the government in charge.

  157. 158 Robert
    October 11, 2008 at 16:38

    Zimbabwe

    One step forward two steps back?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/zimbabwe/3178749/Zimbabwe-Robert-Mugabe-hands-key-ministries-to-his-Zanu-PF-party.html

    What is the point of power sharing if all the powerful ministries go to one side?

    Is this Mugabe ploy for the next election? For everything that goes well, it was his people in the powerful positions that did it, the things that went bad it was the opposition that hindered them.

  158. 159 Pangolin-California
    October 11, 2008 at 17:00

    The attacks by the Republicans on ACORN and any other attempts to register voters are well documented. It’s part of their long-standing policy of denying the vote to anybody but white, religious, anti-union, conservatives. They are appalled at the thought that black people might actually ALL turn out to vote in this election.

    These are the same people that fought bitterly to prevent the renewal of the Voting Rights Act.

    “Voter fraud”= Racism in todays political lexicon.

  159. 160 Bryan
    October 11, 2008 at 17:04

    Bruce Sickles October 11, 2008 at 3:31 pm

    I’m not sure why the links are so complicated. Yes, the closeness of Obama’s relationship with these two terrorists is debatable, but his association with Ayers was over a period of at least eight years. Put it together with Saul Alinsky, Wright and Acorn and a picture starts to emerge of Barack Obama and it ain’t pretty.

    People know very well that if a tenth of this evidence had emerged against McCain, the BBC and the Guardian and CNN and the new York Times and myriad other left wing media would be shouting it from the rooftops. There’s the bias.

    I mentioned on this site a while back that In January George W. Bush arrived in Israel at the same time as the beginning of the primaries for the Democratic and Republican nominations. I was amazed to find that on WHYS that evening there was nothing about the historic visit of the Republican president of the most powerful country in the world to the Middle East, the world’s hot spot. Instead, we not only had enthusiastic coverage of the very beginning of the process to nominate the next president, but the show concentrated exclusively on the Democratic nominations. I thought the Republicans must surely be having their primary some other time, until 5 minutes from the end of the show one of the American guests said, “We haven’t discussed the Republicans yet.” Well, quite. And they carried on not discussing the Republicans with no prompting by the host to include them.

    Again, there’s the bias.

  160. 161 Pangolin-California
    October 11, 2008 at 17:25

    @ Bryan~ Has it occurred to you that you may be wrong and right at the same time? Barack Obama may have associated with all of those people AND they may be sincere patriotic citizens attempting to better their country through legal channels.

    Wouldn’t that be a shocking thought? Of course that would destroy your evil liberal media meme because that reality would leave no dirt to dredge up.

    People just might look up ACORN and all the other bogeyman you list and become MORE committed to voting for Obama. Has that occurred to you? Those people are fine with me. They appear to be fine with far more people than McCain/Palin are gathering.

    So please, please keep harping on this. A favor to me.

  161. 162 selena in Canada
    October 11, 2008 at 17:31

    Just watch yesterday’s TV news from Paris.

    Apparently not much is selling in the department stores, not even with a 50% discount.

    There is a big increase in Pawn Shop business as people pawn their gold jewelery.

    The sale of home safes has gone up 30%.

    It will be interesting to see what happens in Canada on Wednesday morning after the election.

    Harper has been keeping the lid on things here. First he said there was nothing wrong with the Canadian banks. Then yesterday he used $50 billion to buy up mortgages, as a preventive measure… like we believe that!

    The leaders are huddles in their respective corners trying desperate measures to get the little people to buy stocks again so there will be business as usual. Everything hinges on that outcome, apparently!

    The question for everyone: if you have been burned, will you ever trust the stock market again?

  162. 163 Luz Ma from Mexico
    October 11, 2008 at 17:31

    @Julie, Bob, Robert and Pangolin

    Your “guilt by association” recounts made me laugh a lot 😀 … By the way Bob, that picture is priceless 😉

    However I am sad, I don´t have any “guilt by association” experience 😦
    The only thing I could think of is that my aunt-in-law has has friends in Cuba and she has a picture with Fidel Castro… not as good as your stories…

  163. October 11, 2008 at 17:33

    ACORN Voter Registration Program FAQs

    Plain Dealer: “Cuyahoga board probes ACORN voter registration drive” (Cleveland, OH)

    Detroit Free Press: “Bad voter applications found”

    AFP

    After reading every word on these and a couple of other articles, I dare to think that ACORN does not support registration fraud at its administrative level. I told my family that an activist group was being investigated for voter fraud, and one retorted that it smacked of Jim-Crow-styled attempts to prevent or intimidate minority and poor votes.

  164. 165 selena in Canada
    October 11, 2008 at 17:36

    I stayed in an apartment owned by one of Castro’s top officials while I was in Cuba.

    Does that make me a communist?

    (By the way, there was an interesting story there. The godless communist had just found out about his Jewish roots by way of the Internet.)

  165. 166 Bruce Sickles
    October 11, 2008 at 17:41

    Bryan-sorry it took me so long to reply but, again I wanted to research the allegations before I responded (have you visited the ACORN website lately). I thought I was a radical looking for ghosts in the woodwork. You’ve got me beat hands down. All of these connections are tenuous in the least. By your reasoning I guess we should blame Mr Ayers college professors for every thing the weather underground did in the ’60s. As for the presidents visit to Isreal, if Mr.Bush had an actual interest and aenda regarding Isreal, then why did he wait ’til his last year in office to get involved.

  166. 167 Brett
    October 11, 2008 at 17:53

    @ Jennifer:
    and tased his own stepson with a tasergun?

    Yea, but I mean, come on… that could be considered amusing under some circumstances…. lol

  167. 168 Pangolin-California
    October 11, 2008 at 17:56

    Palin Attends Church at Alaska Governments Expense AP article

    Since she took state office in late 2006, the governor and her family have spent more than $13,000 in taxpayer funds to attend at least 10 religious events and meetings with Christian pastors, including Franklin Graham, the son of evangelical preacher Billy Graham, records show.

    The woman is the Mariana’s Trench of shallow.

  168. 169 Amy
    October 11, 2008 at 17:57

    @ Guilt by association,

    My step uncle once worked in the same hardware store as Timothy McVeigh. I guess my entire family is now guilty of the Oklahoma City bombing.

  169. October 11, 2008 at 18:00

    Bryan

    People know very well that if a tenth of this evidence had emerged against McCain, the BBC and the Guardian and CNN and the new York Times and myriad other left wing media would be shouting it from the rooftops. There’s the bias

    Now, please explain, with your flawed logic if I may say so – how, after reading this link, you come to the question of bias against John McCain?

    Believe me – there is far more evidence to more than associate John McCain to less desirable people, 1, look up the Keating 5, 2, please read the link:

    http://willrhodesportmanteau.com/2008/10/10/cnn-sarah-palin-will-be-giving-us-an-interview/#comment-4863

    Now me – I would be pushing all that until I was blue in the face, yet – it is not, why? Do we name bias in keeping all this OFF the TV screen in favour of John McCain?

  170. 171 Julie P
    October 11, 2008 at 18:03

    @Selena and Luz Ma

    As a matter of fact that does make you a communist who was under the influence of Luz Ma’s aunt in law. Between the two of you, that means that now you have been indoctrinated in communism with your goal to be global domination.

  171. 172 robert1987
    October 11, 2008 at 18:09

    @ Corporate Bailouts

    I am totally against bailing out large corporations and this is because I am a believer that if a company runs out of cash then they should be wound up and shut down

  172. 173 Jennifer
    October 11, 2008 at 18:17

    @ Kelsie

    I wanted to let you know that I read your post to me. However, I think we need to remember that this is just a blog. 🙂

    Looking over some of what we discussed last evening, I have to say I think you were taking it more serious than I was. I find the entire issue funny because it is obviously a smear tactic. Obama mailed the info to reporters so they will be sure to have it! haha Obama lovers are jumping on this like a fat kid on a cupcake.

    As for how this will play out, we’ll find out in the coming weeks. It will backfire because Wooten is less than credible. Either way SP went, she would be considered by some to be “unethical”. I would have fired him too because he was not a good employee! He would have been a liability-driving around drunk in a patrol car! Shooting animals out of season-might have shot someone! We won’t talk about his tasing his step-son because that doesn’t have direct bearing on his work character or performance. These are all things to consider.

  173. October 11, 2008 at 18:17

    Brett –

    that could be considered amusing under some circumstances…. lol

    As the story comes out ( it was already on the net for anyone to read if they had wished) The kid asked to be tasered!? What mentality that is I don’t know – the trooper said no, the boy insisted so he put the taser on ‘Safe” attached the stickers to the boy and fired it. Patently stupid on the troopers behalf but at least he had taken some precautions.

    The trooper drinking on the job in his squad car – no witnesses were found, at all, none, pure fiction!

    This is what happens when you have a yahoo (Palin) in charge of yahoo-State! Having lesser educated people in charge of a State seems great to “Joe Six-pack” and “Hockey- moms” – it makes her real – unfortunately for her, the real-real world is simply not like that.

  174. 175 Bryan
    October 11, 2008 at 18:19

    Pink October 11, 2008 at 5:33 pm,

    I finally found something on the BBC about Acorn – part of a video clip on voter rigging. Apparently they have already been caught out registering numerous non-existent people. They are trying to claim that this is OK because these non-existent people have not voted. Right!

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7658182.stm

    But there seems to be funny business on the Republican side as well since they apparently passed a law that people who have no car or house or passport can’t vote. Can this be accurate?

    Though it purports to be even handed, the clip is biased against McCain. See if you can spot the bias.

  175. 176 Amy
    October 11, 2008 at 18:27

    More guilt by association:

    I grew up in the greater Chicago area (Obama territory) and I am of Irish ancestry. It is very well known that in the past, the Irish ruled the city and that many, MANY dead people voted. I guess I’m not only guilty of the Oklahoma CIty bombing but many instances of voter fraud as well. Oh well, where’s the whiskey (and potatoes!)

  176. October 11, 2008 at 18:29

    Typo or something more sinister?

  177. 178 Amy
    October 11, 2008 at 18:39

    Selena,

    In regards of getting burned in the stock market, I think the trust depends on your age. For a younger person (20s and 30s), the ability to ride out the fluctuations of the stock market is easier than someone who is “older” (50s, 60s, 70s). The market always goes up and down (however, lately it is bigger and bigger dips) but in general, it goes up. If you are close to retirement (or already retired) you can’t ride out the roller coaster ride nearly as well as someone who has a long time.

    My husband and I have about 20 years (at least) before we decide to retire. Historically, the market will go up so we should recoup what we have lost in our IRAs and 401k and made some gains before we need to tap into them. I have faith that things will (eventually) get better.

  178. 179 Bryan
    October 11, 2008 at 18:44

    Bruce Sickles October 11, 2008 at 5:41 pm

    As for the presidents visit to Isreal, if Mr.Bush had an actual interest and aenda regarding Isreal, then why did he wait ’til his last year in office to get involved.

    Carry on like that and you’ll destroy the theory people on this blog have of the US groveling to Zionist interests.

    Pangolin-California October 11, 2008 at 5:25 pm,

    Well, let the chips fall where they may.

    Will Rhodes October 11, 2008 at 6:00 pm,

    Anyone can come up with the absence or presence of an article here and there that purports to prove bias one way or another. Obviously it can’t and that’s not how I operate. I base my conclusions on years of observation of how the “liberal” media operates.

  179. 180 Julie P
    October 11, 2008 at 18:44

    @Amy,

    My father’s parents came from Poland and settled in Milwaukee with a large Polish population. Somewhere along the way they joined something called the Polish National Alliance, a fraternal organization with insurance activity. During the McCarthy era, my father was questioned about his part in this organization. He was accused of being a communist, but it was never proven. He took the Fifth. As a child I was enrolled in this same organization. Oh, the communist meetings! WE were made to go to Christmas parties with traditional Polish costumes, food, and dancing where we received presents from St. Nick. I guess that makes me a communist too along with a Black Panther sympathizer.

    I am so glad that I am in such good company on this board.

  180. 181 Brett
    October 11, 2008 at 18:44

    As the story comes out ( it was already on the net for anyone to read if they had wished) The kid asked to be tasered!? What mentality that is I don’t know – the trooper said no, the boy insisted so he put the taser on ‘Safe” attached the stickers to the boy and fired it.

    EXACTLY! lol

    See? Funny!

  181. 183 Roberto
    October 11, 2008 at 19:03

    RE “” she can’t follow procedures within a Government structure.””
    ———————————————————————————————–

    —— Don’t you mean she may not have followed procedures in one single example?

    So, maybe it’s ok to follow procedures that led to the 9/11 attacks and global financial fraud and meltdown, is that what you meant to say?

    Ah, nutin’ like a good company men and bureaucrats to make sure the skids of murder, fraud and chaos stay well greased.

    Makes an excellent tombstone, it does: He always plumped procedure, R I P.

  182. 184 robert1987
    October 11, 2008 at 19:20

    I have a question did John McCain know about this issue when he selected Palin as his running mate for this presidential election.

  183. 185 Julie P
    October 11, 2008 at 19:28

    @Robert1987,

    From the Houston newspaper on the Palin vetting process.

    http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/politics/5980451.html

  184. 186 robert1987
    October 11, 2008 at 19:33

    @ Julie

    Cheers for that I will have a read

  185. 187 Bruce Sickles
    October 11, 2008 at 19:34

    Bryan-I am niether Iranian, Zionist, republican, nor democrat. My interests lay in truth and fact.

  186. 188 Amy
    October 11, 2008 at 19:34

    Handing things off to the very capable hands of Brett and Luz Ma for a little while.

  187. 189 Pangolin-California
    October 11, 2008 at 19:51

    Julie P.

    Any organization that serves pirogi, borscht, cabbage rolls, noodles, sausage, beer and vodka at the same meal is a communist organization and nobody can tell me different. We know you have that portrait of Stalin in the back of your closet.

    For true culinary evil the Poles will put pork, cabbage, apples, sour cream and paprika all in the same dish. Oh, it tastes very good………going down.

  188. 190 Luz Ma from Mexico
    October 11, 2008 at 19:54

    @Pangolin
    You are only making me hungry…

  189. October 11, 2008 at 20:05

    Bryan –

    Will Rhodes October 11, 2008 at 6:00 pm,

    Anyone can come up with the absence or presence of an article here and there that purports to prove bias one way or another.

    Isn’t that what you have been doing to prove bias?

    Did you go and read the link to my blog? On there is a list of those who make McCain extremely dodgy. Or is that a matter we ignore this and then just bash liberals?

  190. 192 Dennis@OCC
    October 11, 2008 at 20:20

    Hi everyone!!!!

    Re: the food…please–i am going to be hungry!

    Re: NORTH KOREA off terror-list….
    That is good news, i say it on the
    television earlier in the day…

    Re: STOCK MARKETS…
    Thank goodness, i have ZERO money
    in the markets….

    Dennis

  191. 193 Pangolin-California
    October 11, 2008 at 20:20

    Luz~ The local farmers have huitlacoche in their fields and they aren’t sharp enough to charge more for it. Fresh ancho chiles are plentiful and I know just how to blend the fried anchos, onions, tomatoes, and huitlacoche. Then they go on a corn torilla with warm goat cheese.

    bwa-ha-ha-ha.

    For the rest of you huitlacoche is known as corn smut, a mushroom that grows on corn cobs. Prepared properly it can be a lifelong addiction.

  192. 194 Jonathan
    October 11, 2008 at 20:32

    @Bryan~

    I didn’t “push the issue” of your ignorance. To the contrary: You asked a question. I graciously answered it. Some small expression of gratitude, rather than petulandt resentment, would be the customary response to this. Again, you’re welcome, for the lesson in politics yesterday, and the lesson in manners today. It’s my pleasure, as always.

    As for your keeping mum until this forum changes its name to “World have your petty gripe,” I expected no less. I should tell you, though, that someone has been commenting here using your name.

  193. 195 Bryan
    October 11, 2008 at 20:40

    Will Rhodes October 11, 2008 at 8:05 pm,

    Isn’t that what you have been doing to prove bias?

    Nope, you cut me off in mid-quote: I continued with these words:

    Obviously it can’t and that’s not how I operate. I base my conclusions on years of observation of how the “liberal” media operates.

    Re the link to your site, why don’t you paste the list to this blog and everyone can have a look at it? I’m not afraid to look at negative allegations against McCain. You might be surprised to learn that I also don’t agree with everything that George W. has done.

    Bruce Sickles October 11, 2008 at 7:34 pm

    My interests lay in truth and fact.

    I’m glad to hear that. So do mine.

  194. 196 Dennis@OCC
    October 11, 2008 at 20:48

    My interests also, lay in truth and facts!
    And I hope that anyone and everyone —will
    not have any understanding towards the
    world….

    Dennis

  195. October 11, 2008 at 20:51

    @ housing investment proposal

    Sorry got called away for awhile. The point of the idea, a rather new one for me at least, is that you would be paying off your house quicker. The estimate is that by making just one extra payment a year, one takes 10 years off the loan. Depends on the exact terms really but that is a good ball park. Interest rates have little to do with the market price. If people walked up to a house and said, “well I know you are asking $100,000 but it is really going to cost me $210,000. The house isn’t worth that to me.” If people did that, we wouldn’t be in this mess. This proposal will not change the price of the house. Unless it is used to purchase the house via some kind of savings fund.

    First you must stay in a house, barring catastrophe, for a stipulated number of years or face a penalty. (This is really sounding more like a 401k offer then a social security.) A dollar for dollar transfer to another house a few times would be allowed with out penalty. Maybe qualifying takes specific credit rating.

    What I know is that the sooner you don’t have a house payment, the easier life is. This would be one way to get money back into the hands of the working middle class. Most important is that they would be using their own money to do it.

  196. 198 Luz Ma from Mexico
    October 11, 2008 at 20:58

    @Pangolin
    Huitlacoche is one of my lifelong addictions. That recipe sounds so yummy… I´ll make it. The goat cheese is a nice touch.

    Have you tried “Flor de Calabaza quesadillas” (Squash Blossoms quesadillas)? They are delicious.

  197. 199 selena in Canada
    October 11, 2008 at 21:00

    My interests lay in truth and fact.

    Ah, but truth and fact lie in the eye of the beholder! 🙂

  198. 200 Brett
    October 11, 2008 at 21:02

    Ah, but truth and fact lie in the eye of the beholder!

    Take George W. Bush for example…

  199. 201 Pangolin-California
    October 11, 2008 at 21:11

    The variant on fried squash blossoms that I’ve worked with was squash blossoms stuffed with herbed cheese, breaded and fried in hot oil. It’s very nice but requires delicacy in handling.

    My favorite variant of quesadillas is to add warm roasted sweet potato to the center with just a bit of finely shredded cabbage. This is very filling, healthful, and cheap way to feed people as well as quite tasty.

  200. October 11, 2008 at 21:36

    Bryan –

    Re the link to your site, why don’t you paste the list to this blog and everyone can have a look at it? I’m not afraid to look at negative allegations against McCain.

    The reason is quite simple – we are trying to keep posts short on here, one of my fellow moderators would have to delete the post as soon as I put it up because it is simply way too long. That is why I directed you to my blog.

    And when I say long – I mean long – the list is quite, shall we say, revealing – and I may also add that it was put up by one of the readers of my blog, not my good self.

  201. 204 Bryan
    October 11, 2008 at 21:47

    selena in Canada October 11, 2008 at 9:00 pm

    “My interests lay in truth and fact.”

    Ah, but truth and fact lie in the eye of the beholder!

    Nope. If your eye wants to behold 2+2 equalling 5, it ain’t gonna make it so.

    And if your eye wants to behold the Atlantic and Indian oceans meeting at the boot of Italy, it ain’t gonna make it so.

    And if y’all want to tell me that your eyes behold Barack Obama thinking kind thoughts about white folk as he sat in Wright’s church for twenty years listening to him denigrating and abusing them it certainly ain’t gonna make it so.

  202. 205 Julie P
    October 11, 2008 at 21:53

    @Pangolin,

    Funny you should bring up food. I was just at the grocery store. Among my favorite communist foods is Atlantic salmon, kona coffee, fresh cream, along with hummus and pita bread.

  203. 206 selena in Canada
    October 11, 2008 at 22:01

    @Bryan

    The facts of the whereabouts of the Atlantic and Indian Oceans have no bearing on the interpretation a human might put on Obama’s association with Wright. If you think they are equal, we are in big trouble.

  204. 207 Bruce Sickles
    October 11, 2008 at 22:31

    Selena, Brett and Bryan-I have to say that truth may lay in the eye of the beholder but fact remains fact no matter how many ways you try to fold it. Truth is, in fact philosophical.

  205. 208 Bryan
    October 11, 2008 at 22:55

    Will Rhodes October 11, 2008 at 9:36 pm,

    OK, fair enough, perhaps give us an edited version then.

    selena in Canada October 11, 2008 at 10:01 pm,

    Well, ’twas you not I who said facts and truth are in the eye of the beholder. Fact and truth are not as wildly different as you imply. In much the same way as there are facts, there is truth, even though it is often quite different from the way in which people behold it. But if you maintain that truth is only in the eye of the beholder, it implies that there is no truth since we each see it differently. I reject that assumption. We can obviously get close to the truth and often find it. Now obviously I’m not saying I have a monopoly on the truth re Obama’s relationship to Wright, but nobody on this site has offered a valid argument to counter my perception of that truth. All I’ve seen is people having a bit of fun with the idea of guilt by association and not even being prepared to debate the issue in a serious fashion. Until such time as you can show me why I’m wrong, I’ll have to assume that I’m closer to the truth in this matter than you are.

  206. 209 Amy
    October 11, 2008 at 23:11

    Bryan,

    Here is my truth (remember, it is my truth): I am a Catholic. I regularly attend (or try to) mass. However, there are things that the church preaches that I disagree with. They are discussed on a regular basis, mostly in the sermons. I don’t get up and walk out when they are talked about nor am I willing to give up my faith or denounce the entire religion. I sit through the sermons, sometimes biting the inside of my cheek to keep from yelling things out, and move on. I don’t think that every sermon that Rev. Wright dealt with the ongoing problem of racism here in the States and I don’t know what Obama’s attendance was at the church. Maybe there was a pattern of when Rev. Wright would go on one of his “triades” (every 6th Sunday) or something so you knew when to skip the service. I know there are general themes that come up at the same time of year in the Catholic Church and you know when they are coming. I really don’t know why so many people think that Rev. Wright went on and on like he did (in the popular clip) every Sunday. If he did, I think most Americans would have been familiar with him prior to Obama’s rise in politics because so many clips would have shown over the years. Something like that would have given the “right wing” lots of ammunition.

  207. 210 Bryan
    October 11, 2008 at 23:14

    Bruce Sickles October 11, 2008 at 10:31 pm,

    It strikes me that it might make a good topic for WHYS:

    What is truth, and how do we distinguish it from fact?

    Meanwhile, here’s a fact:

    It is early days yet, but Israel is doing quite well in the qualifying rounds for the 2010 Football World Cup in South Africa:

    http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/preliminaries/europe/standings/index.html

    Israel has qualified only once for the World Cup, in 1970. Iran is also in the competition. Now what happens if both Iran and Israel qualify and they are drawn to play each other? Iranian athletes have dropped out of competitions rather than compete against Israelis, the most recent being the Beijing Olympics. So I guess the Iranians would refuse to play against the Jews in case they might get contaminated or be influenced to convert to Judaism on the field or whatever.

    So here’s another potential talking point: Can there ever be a justification for one team refusing to play another in an international competition? If not, what should the consequences be for that team?

  208. October 11, 2008 at 23:37

    Bryan –

    Will Rhodes October 11, 2008 at 9:36 pm,

    OK, fair enough, perhaps give us an edited version then.

    No problem – I understand that you really don’t want to go and read it. Not a problem.

    Edited, I did smile though so thanks for that. 8)

  209. 212 Bruce Sickles
    October 11, 2008 at 23:41

    Sports competitions should never be confused with political differences and the consequence, as in any other competion, should be-a failure to show is an automatic loss. I might add that any gov’t willing to restrict activities based on political differences are disrespectful of the teams hard work. And, yes, I would love to see a discussion on theoretical as opposed to factual data.

  210. 213 Amy
    October 11, 2008 at 23:45

    Now if only the US could field a team that could maybe qualify for the qualifying rounds of the World Cup…..

  211. 214 Dan
    October 11, 2008 at 23:45

    @Bryan
    Muslims not wanting to play Israeli’s is but another demonstration of the infantilism of that belief system.
    Stuck in the 7th Century they cannot relate to modern life.
    Next they will complain that we are criticising them not understanding that the real world graduated from 3rd grade a long time ago and thru criticism truth is revealed. But what is truth compared to irrational dogma?
    Let us be happy that they do not go to the games with suicide bombers or repeat the 1972 Munich massacre.

  212. 215 Julie P
    October 11, 2008 at 23:49

    @Amy,

    Hope springs eternal.

  213. 216 Bryan
    October 11, 2008 at 23:52

    Amy October 11, 2008 at 11:11 pm,

    Now you’re talking. I had a couple of those doubts myself just a few hours ago and it is good to see them expressed here. Yes, you are quite right to query the subject of Wright’s sermons. I suppose he must have had various themes. But it could be that the racism was a common thread running through all of them. Perhaps not even a fiery preacher can maintain the fire (or the vitriol in this case) month after month and year after year for twenty years. Or can he? Re attendance, I read elsewhere that the Obamas were regular churchgoers. Re the clips, I imagine the cameras would only be allowed in for a special occasion anyway, so they wouldn’t be a frequent intrusive presence. Dunno about this concept of being ammunition for the right wing alone. I imagine such evidence of raving racism would be cause for any concerned person to scratch their heads at Obama’s attendance in that church.

    Did the Obama’s agree with the preacher through those sermons that attacked whites? We need some corroborating evidence to establish that as truth. I think we have it in Michelle’s “I’m only now proud to be American” on Barack’s nomination and in Barack’s association with the other extreme undesirables who attack white America.

    Am I getting closer to the truth? Or is your truth closer than mine?

  214. 218 Amy
    October 12, 2008 at 00:07

    Bryan,

    Michelle Obama’s “Only now proud…” was speaking on being an black adult in the US. I can see how she could feel that way. I’m not black but have witnessed things in my life to question how far we have come on the race issue. I still disagree with you on Obama and his “associations” (I really hate that I use ” ” so much) with what you call undesirables. To me, having an association with a known witch doctor and being tied closely to a political party that advocates for your state to leave the United States is extremely troubling .

    I don’t know that our respective truths will ever merge.

  215. 219 Bryan
    October 12, 2008 at 00:22

    Will Rhodes October 11, 2008 at 11:37 pm,

    No, you misunderstand me. I’m quite prepared to read it. I’m just a bit unadventurous in venturing over to new blogs. I tend to stick with a few. Can’t you just chop a chunk off the list and plonk it here? And chop another chunk off at a later time and so on till it’s finished?

    Bruce Sickles October 11, 2008 at 11:41 pm

    Over and above the automatic loss I was thinking of serious punishment like not being eligible to compete for the next two competitions. FIFA are really strict and they could well impose a penalty like that.

    Amy October 11, 2008 at 11:45 pm

    Ain’t no qualifying for the qualifying as far as the US goes. It’s in with Central American teams and the Caribbean and Canada. And it’s doing really well so far:

    http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/preliminaries/nccamerica/standings/index.html

    They fight it out and the best few go through to the main competition for the Cup. The US actually played in the World Cup quite a few times, but was in the wilderness for 40 years, coming back in 1990. I’ve just been reading about it here:

    http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/preliminaries/nccamerica/teams/team=43921/profile.html

    They play an attractive game and they are a pleasure to watch.

    Now I gotta go.

  216. 220 Bryan
    October 12, 2008 at 00:34

    Dan October 11, 2008 at 11:45 pm,

    Yeah, I suppose that’s the best we can hope for from them.

    Jennifer October 12, 2008 at 12:04 am,

    Thanks, that cheered me up. I’ll have a look at it another time. I gotta go.

    Amy October 12, 2008 at 12:07 am

    I guess perhaps we can continue this another time.

  217. 221 Dennis@OCC
    October 12, 2008 at 00:43

    It strikes me that it might make a good topic for WHYS:

    What is truth, and how do we distinguish it from fact?

    [I think that is a good topic for WHYS!!

    *********************
    Hurricane Norbert—It battering
    Pacific Mexico…

    ********************************
    Re: THE GLOBAL MARKETS CRISIS:
    The IMF has warned off a “meltdown” of the markets….
    It is scary, but in reality–i think that most people have
    known of this—in the past few weeks..

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7665515.stm

    Dennis

  218. 223 Robert
    October 12, 2008 at 01:18

    Roberto

    2 months before 9/11 those nice men at the CIA followed procedure and reported up the line to the White House advice on the terrorist threat. This was then ignored by politicians.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/30/AR2006093000282.html

    For the economic problems, many are arguing that there were not enough procedures (read regulation) to follow to start with. If there are no procedures to follow, or they are not clear or have sufficient coverage, then you can’t blame the procedures themselves when the system collapses.

  219. 225 Jennifer
    October 12, 2008 at 02:06

    @ Amy

    I have seen both sides of this coin but some people want to play the race card for everything. Not get enough croutons on your salad? It’s because of your color! Did that person cut you off in traffic? It’s your color. You flunked your exam? It must be because of your color.

    Of course there are some people who are still racist but many people are not. I don’t treat people rudely because they are a different color but I also don’t give them special treatment. If people would get the chips off of their shoulders and just get over it they would be better off.

    Michelle Obama is, in my opinion, an angry woman. If she was never proud of America in all of her life until her husband was nominated I really do feel sorry for her.

    Since you have doubts about witch doctors what do you think about medicine men?

  220. 226 Amy
    October 12, 2008 at 02:52

    Jennifer,

    I misspoke about witch doctors – Sarah Palin’s pastor is a witch hunter and proud of it. I have no problem with medicine men. I welcome non traditional forms of medicine as an option whenever needed (especially during the summer allergy season). And while I am not of Native American decent, my husband is and therefore my daughters are.

    What I have experienced in regards to race has not been complaints about flunking an exam. It has been as simple as walking down the street while with white friends. Some of the things that were shouted out, to all of us, were disgusting and vile. If that is something that happens to you on a daily basis (or even weekly or monthly) I can see how some people could not be happy or proud of their country – land of the brave, home of the free. Too many people still are of the mind set that unless you are white, you are a second class citizen. I’d be angry if I had to deal with that. Maybe it is my Irish temper, but I would probably have a very long rap sheet and not degrees from Princeton and Harvard.

  221. 227 Pangolin
    October 12, 2008 at 03:16

    The Rev. Wright thing: It never occurs to Obama’s opponents that there might be a faction of lily-white people that watch the “objectionable” portions of Rev. Wright’s sermons and nod their heads along with him. We might just, gasp, agree with the black man.

    Now wouldn’t that be a shock.

  222. October 12, 2008 at 04:03

    I have said it before and I will say it again. Rich people “investing money in the stock market is no where near the same thing as giving the middle class and poor real money to spend in it.

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081011/ap_on_bi_ge/where_s_the_money

    Many conservative minded people will say, “rich people don’t just sit around holding their money under their mattress.” in affect, that could very well have been a more lucrative place to have placed that money.

  223. 229 Dennis@OCC
    October 12, 2008 at 04:04

    To the answer DOCTORS!
    I have been to enough of them…So they are pretty OK..[except when they deliver to me, bad news]….
    ***************
    In my post at 7.43PM
    i have made an english error, to which i need to correct in this post:
    *it/its* battering
    **************
    To Will Rhodes post at October 12, 2008 at 1:54 am!
    Thanks, I had a nice time reading it..I think this is
    my own opinion, i think that this the true, barack obama..

    [sorry for the long post]

    Dennis

  224. 230 Dennis@OCC
    October 12, 2008 at 04:10

    To Julie P [October 11, 2008 at 7:28 pm ]

    And everyone else!

    I think that is not called a vetting process…I would
    have called a vetted job, that i could have done with a
    hour…and everyone could have done….

    Dennis

  225. 232 Dennis@OCC
    October 12, 2008 at 04:17

    To the comments Dwight From Cleveland
    October 12, 2008 at 4:03 am

    I have to agreed with the comments and i
    would like to further it, The “MIDDLE” Class and “LOW”
    income people–can spend the money on things ranging
    from food thru the other daily needs….i am being in general
    terms and not particular items….

    Dennis

  226. 233 Dennis@OCC
    October 12, 2008 at 04:24

    @ Julie P [and everyone else]
    I was trying to say, which i think i was not able
    to say….

    Was that the VETTING PROCESS was very poor and
    limited. in scope and depth…With any other
    candidates–they would have done more investigating….

    Dennis

  227. 234 Dennis@OCC
    October 12, 2008 at 04:46

    @ CORPORATE BAILOUTS:
    I am very not happy with the idea of giving money
    to the companies! But, in this case—what choice
    does the international community has, let the economic
    affairs of the world! Such as the stock markets and its
    recent crashes….

    Dennis

  228. 235 Dennis@OCC
    October 12, 2008 at 04:54

    Re: GUILT BY ASSOCIATION!

    So, in my own family—that would make me
    not qualify for much of anything that requires
    a “vetting”…..

    ******************
    I am sending this link about, the painfully process of
    returning to Iraq

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/7663506.stm

    Dennis

  229. 236 Pangolin-California
    October 12, 2008 at 05:26

    @ Corporate bailouts~ In a year the suits of Wall Street and the TV pundits will all be lining up to tell us that we really don’t need universal health care and income support for the unemployed and besides we can’t afford it.

    We aren’t supposed to remember that CEO’s are still raking in millions to bankrupt companies while working people who may have been injured, fell sick or found other hard times are sleeping in the streets this winter.

  230. 237 Bob in Queensland
    October 12, 2008 at 06:35

    Senator McCain has tried to quell the threats and disrespect being shown by his supporters and has now faced a BACKLASH AIMED AT HIM.

    I have to say that, as much as I enjoy the cut and thrust of politics, this is getting disgusting. I wonder how much the major parties bring this on themselves with the smear campaigns they’ve started–the trouble is, middle American actually believe the rubbish they spew out. Even on this blog there are people who come close to believing Obama is a Muslim and a terrorist..

    If US politicians had to follow the WHYS guidelines (“attack the argument, not the person”) we’d all be better off.

    Sorry America. You need to be ashamed of yourselves and your politics.

  231. 238 Kelsie in Houston
    October 12, 2008 at 06:36

    @Jennifer:
    Thank you for reading that post.

    However, I think we need to remember that this is just a blog. 🙂

    How very well aware of that I am; it is also a little more: an online forum to exchange ideas. I don’t view that as a matter of national security, per se, but it’s also something I’m not afraid to take seriously when the issue warrants such. The allegations against Mrs Palin are troubling–no one, least of all her supporters, should make light of them.

    And I am certainly an insect among gods around here when it comes to taking the blog (and one’s own prose) overly serious.

    I find the entire issue funny because it is obviously a smear tactic. Obama mailed the info to reporters so they will be sure to have it!

    More assertions with no evidence. The attempts to “smear” Mr Obama with culpability for this action aren’t going to stick, Jennifer. Repeating them over and over won’t help, either. Mrs Palin may have a legitimate defense; if so, give her credit for that and stop insulting her intelligence and that of the electorate by clinging to this most tenuous of straws…

    As for how this will play out, we’ll find out in the coming weeks. It will backfire because Wooten is less than credible. Either way SP went, she would be considered by some to be “unethical”

    I’ll go with the first sentence, Jennifer, and agree: we’ll see. It may fizzle, it may snowball. Either way, Mrs Palin–guilty or not–will need to explain and present a viable case before the electorate. Deflecting it by laying the responsibility for Mrs Palin’s alleged actions on Mr Obama’s doorstep isn’t going to fly; Mrs Palin and Mr McCain are both intelligent enough to realise this.

  232. 239 Bryan
    October 12, 2008 at 07:42

    Pangolin October 12, 2008 at 3:16 am,

    We might just, gasp, agree with the black man.

    This is a fine example of the hypocrisy and patronising stance of the “liberal” left regarding blacks. If Wright were a white man ranting against blacks, the left would be jumping up and down in furious indignation and yelling “KKK.” Why hold the black man to a different standard than the white man and so encourage black racism? White America has come a really long way since the bad old days. Why not acknowledge this and the fact that the sky is the limit for black people in today’s America? Jeremiah Wright and Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson and Louis Farrakhan and the like have carved lucrative careers out of white guilt and the stoking of black anger, so it is not in their interest to acknowledge the extent to which whites have overcome racism.

    Far from their image as “liberators” of blacks, they help keep blacks in a state of self-imposed bondage. Break the shackles, and these people will be out of a job.

  233. 240 Bob in Queensland
    October 12, 2008 at 07:51

    @ Jennifer

    I find the entire issue funny because it is obviously a smear tactic. Obama mailed the info to reporters so they will be sure to have it!

    I have yet to see any evidence that this is the case.

    However, even if we accept the truth of this statement for a minute, do you honestly suppose that the story wouldn’t have been discovered by the media without an email from the Democrats?

    Palin is a vice presidential candidate and a committee from her state legislature (composed mainly of people from her own party!) has just found that she is guilty of unethical behaviour. I suspect the media didn’t need Obama’s help to find this one…

  234. 241 Roberto
    October 12, 2008 at 10:24

    RE “” Even on this blog there are people who come close to believing Obama is a Muslim and a terrorist.””
    ——————————————————————————————————

    ——– A certain % fixes their beliefs early on and no amount of evidence can change their minds.

    This blog has also featured a utube link posted by a mod featuring obvious bogus video purportedly of Palin’s husband and youngest daughter. There’s also been a couple of “news” links which were blatantly counter to the news being reported by the consensus of the media that never panned out.

    Politics is more subterfuge and fear mongering than civilized debate and rational selection.

    As far as Palin’s being guilty of intimidation and wrongful firing of an employee by her own party, my gorsch boys and girls, she completely turned her party on it’s collective ear and now it’s payback. If y’all don’t think there are currently a million and one infinitely more egregious violations going on in the current rep/dem power sharing agreement, then don’t complain about the results you voted in.

    I don’t care for how the campaigns have gone negative, but the global events are as scary as the 1930s, so this is real fear people are feeling, not just imagined. It didn’t have to be this way, but such is thousands of years of history that we are no different save new fancy tools and accessaries than we were at the dawn of time.

  235. October 12, 2008 at 10:43

    Bryan~

    You ask, “Why hold the black man to a different standard than the white man and so encourage black racism?”

    Maybe because blacks in America were slaves for 400 years? Maybe because there are millions of blacks whose lives have been shaped by racism? Perhaps because we are only a couple of generations away from Jim Crow?

  236. 243 rick
    October 12, 2008 at 10:54

    @Roberto
    are you saying that the in the judgement against Palin the republicans on the committee lied and voted against her as payback? But abuse of power is ok because everybody does it, or worse?

    She could end up as the most powerfull person on earth,
    that is what is scary.

  237. 244 Bob in Queensland
    October 12, 2008 at 11:06

    Even if Roberto’s theory is correct (and I have no way of judging) do we really want somebody who so offends their co-workers that they get this treatment a “heartbeat away from the presidency”?

    Two options here: either the committee is honest and right, meaning that Palin is guilty of an unethical abuse of power…

    ….or Roberto and Jennifer are right and Palin is hated by other members of her party. Sorry, I’d rather have a Vice President who inspires the respect of her co-workers, not their hatred.

  238. 245 Pangolin-California
    October 12, 2008 at 11:09

    Sarah Palin just keeps on giving…..

    Who built Sarah Palin’s house? It appears first dude Todd Palin claims that he built this house with the help of a few (unpaid) buddies at the same time the Wasilla Sports Complex pushed through by Sarah was being built. It’s a flat lie.

    Nobody builds a 3,450 sq. ft. house in a short Alaska summer by himself with volunteer help. It simply is not possible. Skilled contractor labor is in short supply in Alaska due to the short building season. So we’re supposed to believe that a full crew of skilled laborers did work for free in high season.

  239. 246 rick
    October 12, 2008 at 11:22

    What gets me is not that she broke the rules, its where are her personal morals on this issue? Where is her professed Christian values like ‘love thy neighbour’ and ‘do unto others’.
    I agree with Roberto that there are ‘infinitly more egregious violations going on’ but when they catch one, they actualy catch one, they should nail them to the cross.

  240. 247 Bryan
    October 12, 2008 at 11:43

    Bob in Queensland October 12, 2008 at 6:35 am,

    I accessed that clip on McCain. Right at the end there is a smattering of applause. Seems that McCain brought them around to his point of view.

    portlandmike October 12, 2008 at 10:43 am,

    Fair enough, but how many generations have to pass before blacks themselves stop allowing the shackles of the past to shackle their future? And why does the left insist on perpetuating this perception blacks have of themselves? The aspiration of Barack Obama for the highest office in the land is sufficient proof in itself that blacks are completely free in America. Must have been quite a few million white Americans who voted for him against Clinton. And even if he doesn’t win the election, there will have been millions more whites who voted for him to be president.

    Rick, on Palin, I understand that she was found to have engaged in unethical conduct, not abuse of power. The committee also found that she had valid reasons for firing whatshisname, apart from the personal motive that they found also drove her decision.

    There was also talk of political intrigue against her from Republicans in Alaska. Roberto is right. Compared to past and current political funny business this affair is a tempest in a teacup and making mountains out of molehills.

  241. 248 Bob in Queensland
    October 12, 2008 at 12:11

    Right gang. I have a question for the Sarah Palin supporters here on the WHYS blog.

    When you leap to her defence are you doing so because you believe her intelligence, skills, experience and ethics make her the best qualified person to be elected to the second most important job in the USA?

    Or, are you supporting her because, whatever her failings, she’s on the ticket you prefer and the alternative to defending her might be the election of the Democrat candidate?

  242. 249 Roberto
    October 12, 2008 at 12:12

    RE “” are you saying that the in the judgement against Palin the republicans on the committee lied and voted against her as payback? But abuse of power is ok because everybody does it, or worse?””
    ———————————————————————————————–

    ——– I’m always astounded at conclusions some folks come to.

    I did not sit on the panel, wasn’t able to weigh the veracity of the testimony, and have no idea other than the final conclusion as stated. I do know that worse things go on as a matter of routine every single day. Now where you get that I say that’s OK is a personal question only you can answer to.

    Congress is loathe to get into anything but the most egregious ethics violations because they don’t want a wholesale mudslinging contest that would befoul the whole body.

    The global economy and climate is in the middle of major meltdown which will affect the entire rest of the history of the world, yet somehow getting to the bottom of troopergate is gonna solve everything?

    Here’s a big newslash fer ya: McCain, Obama, and Biden are more closely linked and responsible for the meltdown than Palin who has been operating at much lower levels of government for a shorter period and had less to do with policies that have gotten us in the current crises.

    And NO, in advance, that doesn’t mean I think she solves the problem or that I endorse her. Might be helpful to prioritize what is important and what is frivilous, and not run off chasing butterflys or busting jaywalkers while literally trillions of dollars have been bilked or otherwise disappeared, poof, vanished in the latest crisis.

  243. 250 Luci Smith
    October 12, 2008 at 12:23

    @shirley

    Sorry, I did not realize that you were joking about guns. Like a lot of people reading this blog, I seem to underestimate other people’s use of irony.

  244. 251 Pangolin-California
    October 12, 2008 at 12:38

    Bryan~ Your argument that the Obama campaign represents the freedom of black america is pure pablum. Obama, who is a gentleman and a noted scholar, is expected to have a cv so flawless that Jesus would have failed the screening.

    His opponents are John McCain, significantly connected to the Keating Savings and Loan scandal and vice-president nominee Sarah Palin, a bleeping moron who can’t remember the name of a single newspaper or magazine. Neither of them are noted for any academic achievement. They’re dummies.

    The fact that a black person has to be perfect to compete with a white person who shows massive flaws demonstrates that racism is alive and well. I refer you to “This is Your Nation on White Privilege.”

  245. 252 Pangolin-California
    October 12, 2008 at 12:50

    The US presidential election has now come to be a contest for much more than the mere right to sign or veto bills that the US congress hands up to the White House. It is now an international referendum on the intelligence and prudence of the american people.

    Given that there were major breaches of trust by US financial institutions a redemption of that trust will have to be made before full function of international markets returns. Is the american electorate going to chose a scholar backed by a noted senator or are they going to choose an obviously sick old man backed by an obviously dim-witted governor of a state with a tiny population.

    Smart black guy or stupid white people; choose. If you choose the stupid white people dollar bills will be cheaper than rolling papers, the stock market will dive and ships in transit will turn away from america’s ports. Believe it.

  246. 253 Bryan
    October 12, 2008 at 12:53

    Could be that you are judging her too harshly, Bob. Don’t forget that as a reformer she will have stood on quite a few toes. When people stick their heads above the crowd and try to act according to moral principles there will always be those who strive to bring them down. And the “liberal” press has been an absolute disgrace with its coverage of Palin, stalking her and trying to bring her down like a pack of jackals while giving Obama a free pass.

    They loathe her because she challenges the PC assumptions of the left. And feminists, I have noticed, are particularly venomous about her because she evidently doesn’t believe that there is anything “progressive” about abortion. But strangely enough, there is one feminist, Camille Paglia, who has come to her defence. Here she is on Palin’s nomination:

    The Republicans unleashed …one of the most stunning surprises …By lunchtime, Obama’s triumph of the night before had been wiped right off the national radar screen.

    Conservative though she may be, I felt that Palin represented an explosion of a brand new style of muscular American feminism. [My emphasis].

    ….a hallucinatory hurricane in the leftist blogosphere, which unleashed a grotesquely lurid series of allegations, fantasies, half-truths and outright lies about Palin. What a tacky low in American politics — which has already caused a backlash that could damage Obama’s campaign. When liberals come off as childish, raving loonies, the right wing gains.

    There is plenty of room in modern thought for a pro-life feminism.

    http://www.salon.com/opinion/paglia/2008/09/10/palin/print.html

    Well worth a read.

  247. 254 Dan
    October 12, 2008 at 12:55

    politics today breeds cynicism for me. No longer do we get a chance to look at and analyze a politicians plans and goals. Rather we have to give them a public anal exam and then criticize every piece of fecal matter that is in their past. “Pssst, did you know Obama fathered two Black children?”
    “Pssst is Sarah Palin’s daughter a product of incest?”
    We have serious problems in America that reverberate throughout the world. As we stand on the precipice many fear that a worldwide depression is at hand and that Fascism will again raise its ugly head as the actors waiting in the wings bin-Laden, Ahmenidijad, Chavez, Kim Jong Il, Bashar al-Assad, Omar al-Bashir and others who will be able to acquire nuclear wepons or who already have them will thru their perverted religious beliefs think they serve God by destroying the planet.
    So my question to WHYS is: How do the proposed policies of McCain & Obama compare and which one is better positioned to lead the world out of this mess?

  248. 255 Bryan
    October 12, 2008 at 13:10

    Bob in Queensland October 12, 2008 at 12:11 pm

    When you leap to her defence are you doing so because you believe her intelligence, skills, experience and ethics make her the best qualified person to be elected to the second most important job in the USA?

    Abso-damn-lutely. I’m sure you could find plenty people with better qualities but they haven’t positioned themselves for VP. This woman has some fine qualities and leadership ability. Here’s the unlikely Palin ally, Paglio, again:

    I am still waiting for substantive evidence that Sarah Palin is a dangerous extremist. I am perfectly willing to be convinced, but right now, she seems to be merely an optimistic pragmatist like Ronald Reagan, someone who pays lip service to religious piety without being in the least wedded to it. I don’t see her arrival as portending the end of civil liberties or life as we know it.

    Pangolin-California October 12, 2008 at 12:38 pm,

    Obama does a lousy tie knot. Does that count?

  249. 256 selena in Canada
    October 12, 2008 at 13:14

    @Bob

    When you leap to her defence are you doing so because you believe her intelligence, skills, experience and ethics make her the best qualified person to be elected to the second most important job in the USA?

    I leap to the defense of Sarah Palin, even though I have no time for her politics…

    The reasons:

    She is no better and no worse than any other politician. Her skills, experience and ethics are on a par with others of her age group. Some others, in fact, are less honest. They are just too polished for their real selves to be exposed. With Sarah what you see is what you get because the handlers have not had their day with her… yet.

    She is as intelligent as any other politician or leader. (Look where the polished smoothies have landed the globe.)

    Her intelligence is seen as lacking simply because she comes from a small State.

    She is the target of jokes because she is a woman.

    And last but not least, the public has learned its top down lessons well. If Sarah Palin had been picked from the great State of Texas and a rich family she would not be quite so vilified.

  250. 257 Bob in Queensland
    October 12, 2008 at 13:18

    At the risk of verging on chit-chat….

    An appropriate quote from tonight’s Australian satirical/variety/interview show “Rove”:

    “I love blogging. I combines my two favourite things: being opinionated and not wearing pants.”

    In the interests of peace in our blog, I’ll refrain from quoting the Sarah Palin jokes.

    (The opinions expressed above are not necessarily those of this blogger.)

  251. 258 selena in Canada
    October 12, 2008 at 13:22

    @Pangolin

    Nobody builds a 3,450 sq. ft. house in a short Alaska summer by himself with volunteer help. It simply is not possible.

    I beg to differ! Not saying how the Palin’s got their house but it can be done.

    There is a shortage of labour where I live, as well. Yet, in the past month a fabulous big house has been constructed next door to me by a young man and his buddies.

    There is a tradition in rural areas for your buddies to help with your house. And they don’t waste any time doing it.

  252. October 12, 2008 at 13:32

    morning all,

    Question: IF you are an average hard working citizen, what are the basic amedities that you should be able to afford with out putting it on credit? Wal-Mart is the countries biggest employer. What should a person who has worked for them for 7 years, full time, and is considered to be a good employee expect out of life? Should they be able to support a family of 2 children? Should they have expectations of owning a dependable car, reasonable house, and decent wardrobe? What are the definitions of these? Should they be able to save up for their children’s college? What is living within your means, and can the average worker do it?

    In the US the average, repeat average US wage was $38,000 a year. Since there are people making tens of millions of dollars, there are more then 50% of Americans making under that.

  253. October 12, 2008 at 14:08

    250 Luci Smith October 12, 2008 at 12:23 pm
    Sorry, I did not realize that you were joking about guns. Like a lot of people reading this blog, I seem to underestimate other people’s use of irony.

    No harm done. I understand how complicated textual communication can be.

  254. 261 Robert
    October 12, 2008 at 14:08

    Dwight

    Your question has but one answer. Yes, people should be able to afford all that you have suggest. The problem is that that not want they want. They want the all the extras and all brand new, and they want it now. It is possible to live on a such a wage without credit, but expectations must be managed accordingly.

    Regarding definitions. I would suggest a dependable car to be one that you need to spend less than $1000 a year on maintenance and service, suffering 1 minor failure a year which needs sorting. Reasonable housing depends on where you live. Reasonable in a city is different to rural areas.

  255. 262 Bryan
    October 12, 2008 at 14:30

    I agree with Selena on the issue of speedy house building. I read about a decade back about a competition in the US to see how quickly a company could put together a prefab house. The winner did it in 13 hours. OK that’s prefab. But the team of thieves who dismantled that entire family home I was talking about did it in the few weeks the family was away and who knows how much time they had left over. Obviously dismantling is far quicker than construction but they still handled all the materials and carted them away.

  256. 263 Pangolin-California
    October 12, 2008 at 14:42

    Selena~ I seriously beg to differ. First, I remodeled house by myself over the course of the summer with some hired help; a California summer. Second, I have worked professionally in the building trades. An honest contractor will tell you the pretense is laughable.

    It would be pretty impressive for a professional contractor to get a house that large completed and ready for occupancy in six months. Nine months would be much more reasonable. The summer that house was built Todd worked his fishing job, Sarah was running for governor and they had four children.

    Superman couldn’t have built that house by himself in that time, in that location with those constraints. I’m guessing she hired Ted Steven’s handyman on the same pay schedule; none.

  257. 264 Robert
    October 12, 2008 at 15:08

    Palin’s house

    Not sure, its just on the borderline of being believable. I lived on a housing estate that was still under construction so have seen a lot of houses being built. Yes it took 6-9 months for a brick house to be built, but for much of that there is inactivity, due to the way the builders organized work and deliveries. Once you’ve got the foundations in place, a good team and some pre-planning can get the shell of a brick house built in about 3-4 weeks. Once the shell is built it doesn’t matter how short the Alaskan summer is, the tradesman have shelter to protect them from their work. The question to me isn’t if it is possible, as I’ve seen some do such a feat, but does the family have mates with the required skills and organization to do it. He’s an oil field man so is likely to have mates with the required skills to do the work.

  258. October 12, 2008 at 15:11

    I presume, wrongly probably, that people who are saying those detestable words Rev Wright have actually used that silly medium, Google?

    If not – oh woe.

    Use this search term “Edward Peck rev Wright quote”

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/21/meet-the-white-man-who-_n_92793.html

    Just 1 of thousands of hits. Wright was quoting Edward Peck – who just happens to be:

    And he is a retired, white, career U.S. diplomat who served 32-years in the U.S. Foreign Service and was chief of the U.S. mission to Iraq under Jimmy Carter — hardly the black-rage image with which Wright has been stigmatized.

    Of course the right will still insist on their pogrom and utilise a 5 second sound bite. USA, USA, USA, USA . Duh!

  259. October 12, 2008 at 15:20

    ” Blacks are free in the US”?

    Mr Obama has been raked over the coals – as an indication as to where the right were going with the “hate-attacks” they have even been through Barack Obama’s books and were readying another attack that as he was “a street guy” they then were connecting the dots with that and were onto that he must have sold cocaine.

    That was in an interview on CNN – can’t remember her name but she was some co-ordinator for Mitt Romney and believes the sun shines out of Sarah Palin’s a*%e.

    When challenged about this – her words were that “it was possible – ask Barack Obama about it” Odd that they would use such tactics (or is that strategy) when the US economy is in such bad shape – but getting McCain elected is more important than that.

    As has been said – even Christ Himself would not pass the right’s interview process – for one, he would look too much like an Arab.

  260. 267 selena in Canada
    October 12, 2008 at 15:32

    @Pangolin

    I have witnessed the construction of this house and many others in my community of few people.

    But I understand it is hard to believe because, at the same time this was happening next door, I had just come through a year of redecorating a condo in Paris. It is not completed yet.

    Professionals don’t work in the same way at the same pace.

    By the way, the Jehovah’s Witnesses always build their Kingdom Halls in a weekend, with volunteers, no matter how big they are. It is a tradition with them.

  261. 268 Pangolin-California
    October 12, 2008 at 15:40

    Richard Heinburg over at the Post-Carbon Institute has an essay where he says that we have seen the end of economic growth of global economies. He claims the energy resources just aren’t there.

    Will~ Just because the facts are on your side doesn’t mean anything. Don’t you understand that Barack Hussein Obama was an arab muslim going to that racist black christian church for twenty years?

    Scratch that. The right wing in the US has been eating the fuzzy rye again.

  262. 269 selena in Canada
    October 12, 2008 at 15:55

    For the record, what is being said about Barack Obama is just as bad as what is being said about Sarah Palin.

    No one’s house is clean!

  263. 270 Kelsie in Houston
    October 12, 2008 at 16:07

    @Will:

    That was in an interview on CNN – can’t remember her name but she was some co-ordinator for Mitt Romney and believes the sun shines out of Sarah Palin’s a*%e.

    That’s Bay Buchanan a (the?) senior adviser for Mr Romney’s presidential campaign…not the sharpest Crayola in the Republicans’ box, either.

  264. 271 Kelsie in Houston
    October 12, 2008 at 16:13

    @something totally unrelated to the War for the White House:
    Getting Haiti back on its feet after the tropical season’s punishment, from the U.S. Fund for UNICEF blog–

    Houston, Texas, The United States, wasn’t the only place hit by Ike…

  265. 272 Vijay
    October 12, 2008 at 16:24

    @Dwight
    Is US$38000 the mean,mode or median salary of an American worker.
    About 13 years ago it was widely reported that the average UK wage was GB£19000,however that was misleading because at that time most British people only earned around GB£12000(median)

  266. 273 Pangolin-California
    October 12, 2008 at 16:35

    Selena~ Jehovah’s witnesses do not “build” a Kingdom Hall in a weekend. The site prep and foundation took several weeks at the very least. Interior plumbing, wiring, doors, flooring, cabinets, plastering and painting takes several weeks at best.

    What you are seeing is several dozen to several hundred people assembling the shell of a building, sheathing the walls and roof and possibly shingling the roof. This is not in any way a finished building ready for occupation.

    Your car is not an empty steel shell and neither is your house. The little bits inside the shell are what count.

  267. 274 Luz Ma from Mexico
    October 12, 2008 at 16:45

    @Bob

    An appropriate quote from tonight’s Australian satirical/variety/interview show “Rove”:
    “I love blogging. I combines my two favourite things: being opinionated and not wearing pants.”

    LOL! Thanks for posting something unrelated to Sara Palin and Obama… 😉

  268. 275 Pangolin-California
    October 12, 2008 at 16:51

    Kelsie~ I fear for the Haitian people. The environmental degradation in combination with the poor educations and political difficulties of the population are setting the situation for another Rwandan-type collapse of society.

    With the wealthy world distracted by the American wars and economic collapse there will be little succor for the Haitian people. This is why I think it is vitally important for developing economies to develop deep internal resilience. Their trading partners may get distracted when there is an interruption in profit opportunity and leave them to starve.

  269. October 12, 2008 at 16:55

    Vijay,

    data is taken from http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/COLA/AWI.html.

    They go into depth about how they come up with it. no matter how one calculates it, it is only off 2 or 3 thousand on either side. That is a huge figure if you only make $14,000 a year, but in the grand scheme related to my question, it isn’t much.

  270. 277 Kelsie in Houston
    October 12, 2008 at 16:59

    Pangolin:
    It’s heartbreaking–what has happened in the Caribbean after Gustav and Ike; I was infuriated that the only major news source available in America covering Haiti after Ike was the BBC–the American MSM are far too animated about the latest scandal to emanate from the Imperial City to pay more than lip-service at the desperate maelstrom of poverty and hunger to our south.

    I suppose it might be due to Haiti’s lack of anything for which to “drill, baby, drill”–a callous disregard our culture itself is guilty of, not just the politicians or the media.

  271. October 12, 2008 at 17:01

    Robert,

    I guess there are some things that are in the eyes of the beerholder. I might consider a decent car one that has under 100,000 miles and has good shocks, tires, and no rust. But you might think, “if it gets you from point A to point B then it is in god shape.

    It would be great to have a defined list. But everybody often makes a judgment about somebody then assigns what they feel that person should have. Their prais or condemnation is derived from that perception.

  272. 279 selena in Canada
    October 12, 2008 at 17:02

    Again Pangolin,

    The JWs in my town (the community is half JWs) built their Kingdom Hall in a weekend. When it was finished they held a meeting. It was finished right down to the chairs.

    Granted there were many people involved. The house next door took longer because they did not have so many people.

    Have you ever lived in a small village where life depends on the help of your neighbors? For sure, they would go and build a house for their politician just to support him/her. It would not be for any nefarious reason… just plain, old-fashioned neighborly support.

    When an elderly gentleman had his house condemned by the council last year, the community got together and built him a new one, without any cost to him.

    People will help me out at any time. They come to shovel my driveway and steps in the winter, without any request from me. People have been bringing me home grown vegetables all week. They bring so much food (because I am looking after a sick person) I don’t have to cook much. It is the way it is in rural areas.

    It gets too much for me at times because I am basically a loner. 🙂

  273. 280 Roberto
    October 12, 2008 at 17:07

    RE House raisings:
    ————————————————————————————————

    ——– All I can say is this notion suffers from the failure of imagination.

    Not going to comment on the Palin’s home since I don’t know what kind of construction was used, but large barns used to be raised by farming communities, ie non construction tradesman in a weeks time with limited if any power tools.

    The farmer needs all the materials in place ready to be worked. These farmers worked hard and quite good at large scale, but simple construction.

    Alaska is where building codes are almost nonexistant in rural areas and function over regulation is the rule. A very good documentary in the extreme of a 40 yr old man dropped in the middle of nowhere one spring with a ruck sack of hand tools and another of basic coffee, sugar, flour, and some cookware, and he builds a cozy cabin from the landscape using a few handtools and foraged materials. Amazing documentary as he films himself at work, and every couple of months when the plane comes in with more coffee, ect, the pilot or passenger would film him on a hunt as he obviously has to carry a hunting rifle for both protection and food source.

    He has everything tucked away for the -60 degree winters spent on the lake and lives like a king until his 80s when the government convinces him to come into town while they make his still immaculate home a state monument.

    It’s very doable that a nice shell could be constructed in a week or two by working men enough for the Palins to live in for the winter. These Alaskans still have a frontier self reliant ethic and know how to live with nature.

  274. 281 Luz Ma from Mexico
    October 12, 2008 at 17:09

    @Dwight

    What is living within your means, and can the average worker do it?

    In my context (and my country´s context) this is my answer:

    Living within your means is doing a serious evaluation of your income and what can you afford. I´ll recommend making a budget and stick to it. For sure this takes RESPONSABILITY, which sadly is way lacking in this world.

    For two years my husband and I didn´t have permanent jobs. Our income fluctuated every month and we have two daughters. We covered the minimum (food, clothes, school fees for our older daughter, home bills, gas, etc.) Luckly we don´t have to pay rent because we own our house. We learned to live without all those “extras” that really are not a neccesity (HDTV, brand-new SUV, tons of brand-new clothes every season, the latest toys/videogames, etc.). My daughters learned that new toys only come in Christmas and their birthdays. We learned to appreciate the leissure things that do not cost a lot in life: reading books, going to the park, playing board games, homecooking, watching rented movies, etc. We became closer as a family in times of crisis.

    Now that my husband and I both have good permanent jobs we don´t want to change many of our spending patters. Maybe we will get some extras, like cable TV and go for a family vacation next year, but nothing without our means. And for sure, nothing on credit.

  275. 282 selena in Canada
    October 12, 2008 at 17:10

    @Roberto

    Well said!

    I don’t think that anyone can understand the rural spirit unless they have been a part of it.

    And, as you say, regulations are almost non-existent.

  276. 283 Dennis@OCC
    October 12, 2008 at 17:29

    Hi:

    @ Bob in Queensland remarks :
    About the politicans have to work within the WHYS rules and
    regulations….
    Brilliant idea!

    @ Bob in Queensland remarks:
    From Australian TV Show “Rove”
    Good idea and sentiment and also a “brilliant thesis”…

    @ LIVING IN THE MEANS
    I have been living in my means! I go shopping
    to get the necessities!

    Dennis

  277. 284 Brett
    October 12, 2008 at 17:56

    As has been said – even Christ Himself would not pass the right’s interview process – for one, he would look too much like an Arab.

    HAHAHA! Great point Will 😉

  278. 285 Robert
    October 12, 2008 at 17:59

    If Obama was to win and offer McCain a job in the new government would this be good or bad? Could McCain be able to function in Obama’s presidency? Turning it around could the same be said of Obama in a McCain administration?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/uselection2008/barackobama/3179575/Barack-Obama-would-offer-John-McCain-a-job-is-he-wins-the-US-election.html

  279. 286 Jennifer
    October 12, 2008 at 18:01

    Re: Reasons for supporting Sarah Palin

    I seriously believe that Sarah Palin has the intelligence, skills, experience, and ethics to be a good VP. If I didn’t think she was qualified, I wouldn’t support her.

    For SP to be elected Governor, she obviously had some intelligence and support from the people of AK. I highly doubt they would have elected someone they did not feel was qualified to oversee their state. I also don’t think that John McCain would have chose her if he did not feel that she was qualified and people would relate to her. People do.

  280. 287 Pangolin-California
    October 12, 2008 at 18:03

    Yeah, sure. Todd Palin and his oil field buddies slapped up a 3400 sq. foot palace for governor to be Sarah Palin in their off shift weeks. A few neighbors and people from the church came by and to put in the drywall one weekend and paint the next cathedral ceilings and all.

    I don’t know what the inside of a Kingdom hall looks like but I doubt they are up to residential construction standards. Barn with a bathroom is more like it.

    Some people are seriously ignorant of both math and construction. Oh, elected officials are required by federal law to show all income in cash, materials or donated labor. Oops.

    Reality is STILL showing a liberal bias.

  281. 288 Brett
    October 12, 2008 at 18:14

    @ Jennifer:
    I also don’t think that John McCain would have chose her if he did not feel that she was qualified and people would relate to her. People do.

    I also don’t think John McCain would have chose her if she was a man…. Think about that one…
    😉

  282. 289 Dennis@OCC
    October 12, 2008 at 18:22

    Re: THE SITUATIONS IN THE CARIBBEAN
    I have to agreed with the sentiment, that the U.S. media [main-stream]
    and some cable services are too busy with the coverage of the latest
    scandal…[i am not including the names because you can have your choice].

    Re: Regulations!
    They are pretty close to life-support measures and it is sad, this is the time–that regulations are needed!

    Re: SARAH PALIN [Question from Bob in Queensland]….
    I am not supporting her, because she is not qualify for the job,
    and i am not votiing for John McCain…[This is not an endorsement
    for Barack Obama–i am voting for him…and this is not telling any in the
    United States to vote for Barack or John]….

    Re: BUILDING A HOUSE
    There is no way, that someone will build your “house” for no
    money….

    Re: Kelsie in Houston at 4.07pm on 12 October 2008
    That is Bay Buchanan, who is a conservative talking head….and she
    has had her hands in other organisations….

    *SORRY FOR THE LONG POST*

    Dennis

  283. October 12, 2008 at 18:33

    Luz Ma,
    There are people who would condemn you for having kids when your income isn’t determinable. (To be honest, I have a foot in that camp. I believe if you are receiving government assistance you shouldn’t be getting pregnant.)
    Do you deserve to have internet access at your house? Children who do have a many times better easier path to doing well in school. Do we all deserve to have cell phones? They can be a very useful tool in child raising if used right. Of course you own your home. In this economy that is huge. As of now reasonably would be paying one quarter of your monthly income just to the loan. That doesn’t include taxes. I have argued with people even here on the blog about that figure being too low. You get to do that for at least two thirds of your working career.

    I guess the point is, what is considered a necessity and what is a luxury on this day and age? Then the question of, can the average person afford a “decent life?”

  284. October 12, 2008 at 18:36

    Support for Sarah,

    In fact the average Washington “working girl” has the same skills as Sarah. They spend a lot of time with leaders, both local and world. They have efficiently run their own business. That is “executive skills. Many have been to 4 or 5 colleges. Many have negotiated deals and set boundaries.

    I would like to know what skills people believe you need to be president and Where did Ms. Congeniality get them?

  285. 292 Jennifer
    October 12, 2008 at 18:41

    @ Kelsie

    I am not saying that the allegations against her should not be considered. I have considered them and I believe them to be nothing but a flimsy attempt to tarnish SP’s image. Can’t find wrongdoing with the commissioner’s dismissal, keep digging and something will crop up for sure. The media will be sure to report it as “Sarah Palin Guilty of Abuse of Power!” and give everyone a lovely October surprise! I would have fired the man too but I don’t think I would have talked to other people about it. If it were within my power as governor I would have done it on the spot. I imagine she did not because that would have landed her in much of the same situation we have now. He was a liability! The fact that he was her ex in law is nothing but a drama link.

  286. October 12, 2008 at 18:44

    BTW

    Before anybody asks, “What has Obama done?” Graduated law school at the top of his class. Not just any law school, but one of the most renowned in all of the world. HE has been an organizer and a lawyer for 20 years. The same skills needed to be a President (the worlds most powerful diplomat) are the same ones needed to be a lawyer. In case someone was thinking about asking.

  287. 294 Pangolin-California
    October 12, 2008 at 18:46

    @ Jennifer~ Of course you support Sara Palin because she’s more qualified than these other Republican women:

    Senators: Lisa Murkowski, Alaska(?!?); Olympia Snowe, Maine; Susan Collins, Maine; Elizabeth Dole North Carolina; Kay Bailey Hutchison, Texas

    Governors: Oline Walker, Utah; Linda Lingle, Hawaii, M. Jodi Rell, Connecticut

    Members of the House: Ileana Ros-Lehtinen Florida; Deborah Pryce, Ohio; Barbara Cubin, Wyoming; Sue Myrick North Carolina; Jo Ann Emerson, Missouri; Kay Granger, Texas; Mary Bono, California; Heather Wilson , New Mexico; a few more here…

    Cabinet: Condoleezza Rice, Secretary of State; others

    None of whom are reported to look like blithering idiots when tossed softball questions on par with what is your name Sarah? (ok, “which national magazine has your face on the cover” is a bit much for a GOP presidential candidate. Bush is famous for reading books upside down)

  288. 295 selena in Canada
    October 12, 2008 at 18:56

    I would like to know what skills people believe you need to be president

    Me, me hand up! I will answer your question! That’s easy!

    The skill needed to be President is to be able to do what the top 400 richest families expect you to do. 🙂

  289. 296 selena in Canada
    October 12, 2008 at 18:58

    As has been said – even Christ Himself would not pass the right’s interview process – for one, he would look too much like an Arab.

    Doesn’t the same hold true for the left with respect to Palin?

  290. 297 selena in Canada
    October 12, 2008 at 19:00

    Condoleezza Rice?

    Surely Sarah Palin can do no worse!

  291. 298 Dennis@OCC
    October 12, 2008 at 19:11

    Hi!

    Re: PEOPLE HAVING KIDS WHILE ON GOVERNMENT HELP!
    I believe it is not a great idea, of having kids or getting pregnant if
    you are on government support programmes! It usually sets a poor
    example to the kids that you, never have to work and the government will
    take care of you….

    Re: OBAMA
    I am very grateful that He has accomplished a lot in his life! And with many obstacles in his way, that he overcame….

    Dennis

  292. 299 Luz Ma from Mexico
    October 12, 2008 at 19:16

    @Dwight
    When we had our children (they are now 7 1/2 and 31/3), my husband and I were doing fairly well (by the standards in my country). We hit a rough patch when we returned to Mexico after being 6 years in Canada getting our graduate degrees.

    Here in Mexico is different that in the U.S. First, the economic/social inequalities among the population are oustanding. There are few very rich people (Forbes list even) and many (20 million) living in extreme poverty. The middle class is not large. So, my husband and I weren´t “that bad” economically speaking. We had enough to cover basic needs, but in our social class ( middle class) we were socially labeled as “poor” (an insult for those who really are poor).

    Second, we don´t have government assistance for the poor. If you are unemployed, the government does not give anything to you. There are not tax benefits for having children or being disabled. We don´t have universal healthcare.

    So, my comment was about many middle class Mexicans who want to be like the upper class (and fail terribly in doing so) by buying expensive stuff (that they cannot afford otherwise) on credit.

  293. 300 Pangolin-California
    October 12, 2008 at 19:17

    If the GOP had run Olympia Snowe and Linda Lingle, both moderate republican women Obama could be a dot in the rear view mirror. Instead they chose somebody who speaks in tounges and hosts witch-hunters from Africa.

    At least there is no doubt that Condaleeza Rice is well educated. She’s even cultured; she plays classical piano.

  294. 301 Dennis@OCC
    October 12, 2008 at 19:17

    The ACORN group and accusations of “FRAUD”

    Before i go further, i am believer that if you have no charge
    with a criminal offense, than its speculation and has no foundation
    in truth!

    Until, they have been charged and convicted to are presumed to
    be innocent!

    –Now, i am in the mind set, that they could be guilty of using
    some mis-judgement on the protocols of making sure, they are
    registering the correct voters…

    But, i also believe in the government–should be doing to encourage
    the average voter to register…

    Dennis

  295. 302 Pangolin-California
    October 12, 2008 at 19:29

    Luz~ Nobody with sense faults the work ethic of Mexican immigrants in the US or their thrift. Given the absolute lack of social safety nets in Mexico purchasing luxury items on credit would appear to be borderline delusional.

    Do the people with drive leave and their less financially astute cousins stay home or is there class stratification that allows some with marginal performance to retain posts beyond their skill level? It would seem that competition for well-paying jobs would be fierce.

    Why would they follow the US into the credit trap?

  296. 303 Dennis@OCC
    October 12, 2008 at 19:53

    This is a story about ENEMIES helping out a child stricken by
    a medical problem…CANCER….

    Israel and Iran….Israeli authorities authorised an child from Iran into the country for MEDICAL CARE….

    I would like to ask the contributors….What are your thoughts?

    http://WWW.HAARETZ.COM/HASEN/SPAGES/1027968.HTML

    Dennis

  297. 304 Luz Ma from Mexico
    October 12, 2008 at 19:55

    @Pangolin
    The majority of Mexican immigrants in the US (specially illegal immigrants) come from the lower/middle lower class. I am not talking abou them.

    Of which I am talking about is the part of the middle class in Mexico that wants to be like the upper class. It is very twisted and materialistic. And they are not smart about it, they are following the US into the credit trap. I know the current trend will hit here sooner or later.

  298. 305 Dennis@OCC
    October 12, 2008 at 19:58

    Why would they follow the US into the credit trap?

    I think that any country, that is not in the credit trap, should be
    very happy with that…..Because they were able to managed
    there resources in a very “conservative” way!

    Dennis

  299. October 12, 2008 at 20:14

    Bryan~

    You said, “Fair enough, but how many generations have to pass before blacks themselves stop allowing the shackles of the past to shackle their future? And why does the left insist on perpetuating this perception blacks have of themselves?”

    Jews were held in bondage in Egypt for 210 years (half as long as American slaves were) and they still ‘remember.’ There are blacks today whose grandparents were born into slavery.

    Blacks aren’t all the same person… they were treated horribly for centuries, and yet you seem to believe since there is now a “level playing field,” so they should ALL “get over it?” It isn’t “IT” that has to be gotten over. “It” is the after-effects of 400 years of slavery.

    Blacks aren’t some monolithic culture, who all think and act the same. Like Jews or white people, they are all over the place with their beliefs and life-stories. Referring to blacks as if they are ALL the same, and ALL hold a certain negative perception of themselves is biased on the face of it. Its like saying “Jews are….”

  300. 307 Bruce Sickles
    October 12, 2008 at 20:38

    Luz Ma your perception of the danger your people are in for using credit to achieve the look of wealth is right on. AND it is no diferent than the path that a large number of americans have persued in their rush to look wealthy and no different than the path that those same americans are now experiencing in their credit crunch. Let’s hope someone can step in and educate them properly before it is too late (if it’s not already). Portland Mike and Bryan- I feel you are both right and both wrong. Racial labeling is a mindset-whether you are accusing or crying the blues. we should never forget that some people are downtrodden simply because of race and work relentlessly to overcome this. we should also never forget that there are many who put this stigma behind them as early as 1864 and that there were other downtrodden races (Irish in Chicago and Chinese in the southwest and California). While these chose to migrate here they were still beaten, killed and generally treated as lessor beings simply because of race-and they got over it — eventually.

  301. 308 Robert
    October 12, 2008 at 20:57

    Dennis

    People only see in something what they want to see. To them it’s not a credit trap, it’s a means of something they want or need now and paying back later. It is gambled that the negatives of credit are outweigh by the positives of getting the object. Sometimes that is the correct gamble (houses, or cars for traveling to work) but sometime it isn’t (loans for frivolous luxury items for instance)

  302. 309 Kelsie in Houston
    October 12, 2008 at 21:02

    [Mods: sorry for the length…not typical for me, as you know 😉 ]

    @Jennifer:

    I am not saying that the allegations against her should not be considered.

    And yet you are, by attempting repeatedly to dismiss them out of hand as part of a conspiracy (“smear campaign”) against Mrs Palin’s candidacy on the part of Mr Obama.

    I have considered them and I believe them to be nothing but a flimsy attempt to tarnish SP’s image.

    Very well. The legislative council considered them and returned a decision that Mrs Palin abused her authority as governor. I’m going to go with them, since it was bipartisan and considered evidence and testimony we may or may not have access to in its entirety.

    The media will be sure to report it as “Sarah Palin Guilty of Abuse of Power!” and give everyone a lovely October surprise!

    Because those are the facts. The council found her guilty. Why do we keep running in circles around this?

    The fact that he was her ex in law is nothing but a drama link.

    No, actually, it’s more than that. This isn’t something to be trivialized as though it’s another episode in As the World Turns or Clarissa Explains It All. “The fact that he was her ex in law” is the linchpin in the whole case. Read those (“biased,” to be sure, unless they’re from FoxNews.com, of course) news reports again…

    Honestly, Jennifer: you and I don’t agree here; while I’ve no problem running circles around these desperate ideas that Mr Obama is orchestrating some kind of conspiracy against Mrs Palin (apart from his grand conspiracy to become elected president instead of Mrs Palin or Mr McCain), it does tend become a bit repetitively boorish.

  303. 310 Kelsie in Houston
    October 12, 2008 at 21:07

    @all, in “other news not related to the ongoing War for the White House”:
    The United Kingdom Fund for UNICEF has praised the decision of the Government to create a Department for Energy and Climate Change, welcoming this as an opportunity for the United Kingdom to take a proactive role in tackling the reduction of greenhouse gas emissions:
    http://unicef.org.uk/press/news_detail.asp?news_id=1206

  304. 311 Dictatore Generale Max Maximilian Maximus I
    October 12, 2008 at 21:22

    I just wished to make a general observation.

    I’ve noted that over the past year or so there have been some heated debates about ‘rude’ posts AND I’ve seen some discussions (heated or otherwise) about why certain posts are so long! I’ve also noted that broad-based attacks on Jews / the WEST (especially) or Muslims or Christians or whoever are OK BUT a counter-attack / (Right of Reply) (based on logic and/or facts) on the person making the broad-based attacks is anathema!?!

    Blimey! Crickey! Are ALL of us FORCED to follow the LCD=Lowest Common Denominator of intellectual endeavour? AND a brief one at that?

    Before I started contributing to the ‘500 character’ debates on HYS, I had forgotten all about précis (which I had studied in school)! After a few posts I suddenly realised that based on an objective analysis of posts by other people compared to my own I was making some good & succinct points (though NOT always) and was getting a fair amount of recommendations! Not bad!

    BUT that does NOT mean that everything in life has to be a one liner! (Notwithstanding the fact that almost always, there are people who come up with EXCELLENT one liner’s; and they always get my recommendation!) If you wish to write about a complex topic, even a concise, cogent and ‘précis-wise’ well written comment WILL be a LONG one! And by personal experience I can say that a sector of society prefers long.

    IF that is unacceptable what is the moral of the story?

    Is it that all those who are interested in exploring and expanding their intellect to the highest level possible; HAVE to kowtow to the ‘short term’ / ‘sound bite’ / LCD etc. kind of mentality?

    I think that we NEED a HYS on this(ese) topic(s)! THAT would wake up ALL of us and help us to introspect as well as be more objective towards the complexity of the topics thrown up on WHYS!

    Now for the $64,000 question!

    Is this post too long to be admissible?!

    P.S. If the regulars have noted; I do NOT contribute regularly to this blog precisely because of the problems that I have enumerated!

  305. 312 Bryan
    October 12, 2008 at 21:41

    Dennis@OCC October 12, 2008 at 7:53 pm,

    Yes, I saw that story. The Israelis will help anyone in need. They treat Gaza terrorists wounded in conflict against Israelis in Israeli hospitals and they assist Muslim refugees from Sudan – an enemy state hostile to Israel – when they’ve managed to enter the country without being shot by the Egyptians at the border.

    On construction – a 3400 sq ft house is hardly a “palace.” It’s approx 55′ X 62′ or 17m X 19m and there’s no reason at all why it can’t be constructed with fittings in a few months with some willing hands to help. As Robert or Roberto pointed out, construction is typically delayed a lot by the need to coordinate various builders and artisans and get them to the site at the appropriate time. This is complicated by the fact that builders generally juggle a few jobs at the same time. If it’s an in house job (pun intended) with everyone coordinating well, the time taken is considerably trimmed.

  306. 313 Dictatore Generale Max Maximilian Maximus I
    October 12, 2008 at 21:57

    OH!

    Just BTW!

    It is quitepossible and probable that many or some, prefer that I (or others like me) stay away from this blog! That’s kewl!

    BUT it still requires that the issues that I have raised are discussed in an open and forthright manner!

  307. October 12, 2008 at 22:02

    259 Dwight From Cleveland October 12, 2008 at 1:32 pm
    Question: …what are the basic amenities that you should be able to afford…? … Should they be able to support a family of 2 children? Should they have expectations of owning a…house…wardrobe? What are the definitions of these? Should they be able to save up for their children’s college? What is living within your means…?

    Goodness! That is the $700 billion dollar question of the new millennium.

    I think that the minimum of humane shelter would be something that allows each member or married couple of the family to sleep in privacy, keeps the air around them at around 70°F, and has facilities to prepare food and clean the house, clothing, and people. People should be able to afford clothing that someone living in the current day and age would easily recognise as clothing and not rags or a costume. People should be able to eat food such that their nutritional requirements are met. They should have health care, full stop, no exceptions for anything. They should have access to education to the point where they can obtain a job that would provide these life necessities. They should have access to transportation that would allow them to reach their job/place of education. I also think that they should be guaranteed a retirement fund so that they do not have to continue working at a time when their bodies need more rest and less activity; and that basic community recreational outlets should be provided and accessible so that one who so desires can maintain a healthy level of physical activity.

    I think that these are basic human rights. I see no reason why society should be structured in such a way that any of these are inaccessible to anyone at all. That is what I mean when I say that corporate welfare is immoral. (words: 310, chars: 1810)

  308. 315 Robert
    October 12, 2008 at 22:09

    Given the chaos in the system shouldn’t we just go the whole hog and nationalize the entire banking sector. With bank shares off the stock market no more dramatic falls in the FTSE. Maintain them as 5 or 10 separate independent companies owned by the treasury until the economy is stable again and then refloat them back to the private sector.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/financialcrisis/3185120/Financial-crisis-HBOS-and-RBS-to-be-nationalised-in-50-billion-state-intervention.html

    The market at the moment doesn’t like the uncertainty and that is what is causing the chaos. Let it know for certain just how bad it will get and let it sort itself out.

  309. 316 Dictatore Generale Max Maximilian Maximus I
    October 12, 2008 at 22:17

    Re: 314, Pink October 12, 2008 at 10:02 pm

    I have NO idea whether you are Ms./Mr./…

    But

    I like/love your train of thought! I wish there were a gazillion more people like you!

    Through that train of thought we may ultimately realise the message which ALL the Prophets (without exception!) have tried to give us!

    Have we tried to understand that message?

    NO!

    The clergy of EACH religion has turned that religion into a business! Was that the message of the Prophets? NOT at all! Think about it!

  310. 317 Bryan
    October 12, 2008 at 22:23

    portlandmike October 12, 2008 at 8:14 pm,

    Referring to blacks as if they are ALL the same, and ALL hold a certain negative perception of themselves is biased on the face of it.

    I agree, but that was not what I was saying. Perhaps I should have been more careful not to come across as if I were speaking generally. It’s self-evident that American blacks are as diverse in their achievements and aspirations as any other race. But it can’t be denied that there is a “blame the whites” mentality among a considerable number of blacks. This is precisely the attitude that Wright and Sharpton and Farrakhan and Jackson feed on. It was also an attitude that was startling to see coming from Michelle Obama, since she is living proof, along with Barack, that blacks can achieve whatever they want in America. Condoleeza Rice and Colin Powell and all the black professionals and achievers across the US prove the same thing.

    You bring up the Jews as a comparison. The Jews are not allowing past enslavement to deter them from present achievement. And a third of world Jewry was obliterated in the Holocaust. While Jews can obviously never forget it and many Jews will never forgive the perpetrators of the Holocaust, in general they don’t allow the grotesque shadow of that horrific past to determine their future.

  311. 318 Bryan
    October 12, 2008 at 23:19

    Well, folks we can go on and on endlessly inspecting Sarah Palin with a microscope to find the next tiny flaw while ignoring elephant Obama. One can hardly access the Internet without stumbling across more revelations of Obama’s very troubling past associations.

    Here’s a two-minute YouTube clip (which I’m pretty sure nobody here will bother to even watch) showing a link between Obama and Khalid al-Mansour. This gentle Muslim rants and raves against Jews and whites, claiming that God wants blacks to “cut off the noses and ears of white people and tear pieces of flesh out of their bodies and kill them.” Apparently Mansour mentored Barack Obama and assisted him in his application to Harvard. The story is related on the video by a left wing lawyer and activist named Percy Sutton, so surely it must be true. On the other hand, it was on Fox News, so I guess that means it can’t be true. Confusing, isn’t it. Still nobody can deny the words coming out of this creature’s mouth. It’s on the video:

    Another video shows a link between Obama and Raila Odinga. He’s the one who contested and narrowly lost the presidency of Kenya and was instrumental in plunging Kenya into violence thereafter. There is a Muslim angle to this story. He is apparently Obama’s cousin. More than that, looks like Obama is quite happy with this guy:

    http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/5411

    Another thing: Obama will not release records to prove that he was born in the USA. What has he got to hide?

    But let’s not worry about all this stuff. I’ve got an idea for a new assault on Sarah Palin. Let’s try to find out if she ever jaywalked.

  312. October 12, 2008 at 23:57

    Bryan~

    Sharpton and Farrakhan and Jackson are all civil rights black leaders whose careers come out of the 60’s. Farrakkhan isn’t a blamer… Jackson’s career is haunted by MLK’s assassination, and he never got over it (that is, he never worked another day). Sharpton ought to have gone to prison over the Tawana Brawley affair. Jackson and Sharpton are black leaders who have already disappeared in the ground swell for Obama. You don’t see O asking for their support.

    I stand with Michelle on her “proud to be an American.” I can’t think of anything that the U.S. has done that makes me proud either… for decades.

    Jews have done well since the Holocaust… they have had massive help from the U.S., and I support that help. However, after the Jews were freed from bondage in Egypt, they wandered in the desert for decades. They had leaders that led them astray, and many had lost their values and morals. When the blacks were freed, they were freed into a largely white society who despised them, and did everything in their political power to hold them back, and separate them from white society.

    When I was a boy, I lived in the segregated South. This is just 60 years ago Bryan. Imagine two water fountains next to each other… one is marked “colored.” Can you imagine your parents growing up only drinking water in a separate fountain? Housing, jobs, hospitals, bathrooms, schools, restaurants, motels…. I can still see in my minds eye that little sign two thirds of the way to the back of the bus, white-colored… these were the same buses that Rosa Parks rode.

    What was in these racist brains where the ruling majority white people didn’t want to drink from the same water fountain? How could our American democracy come up with a “separate but equal” domestic policy?

  313. October 13, 2008 at 00:17

    Re: Nepal’s New Living Goddess, Age 3

    “Matani was chosen by a panel of judges in a competition that featured a number of 2- to 4-year-old girls from the same impoverished caste. The girls were judged by their horoscopes and their bodies. In this contest, the living goddess must have perfect hair, eyes, teeth and skin and no scars.

    The new living goddess will be worshiped by Hindus and Buddhists as an incarnation of the powerful Hindu deity Taleju. She will live — without her parents — in an ancient temple in Katmandu where she will become a tourist attraction until she reaches puberty and loses her divine status. ” http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/undergod/2008/10/nepals_new_living_goddess_age.html

    How many more years will this human sacrifice go on?

  314. 323 Bryan
    October 13, 2008 at 00:19

    Julie P October 12, 2008 at 11:54 pm,

    Thanks for that, but it’s inconclusive and only updated to August. Be interesting to see what happens with the suit this guy has filed.

    portlandmike October 12, 2008 at 11:57 pm

    Dunno what I can say further. We should be aware of the past but we certainly shouldn’t dwell on it. For the first twenty years of Israel’s existence there was no help from the US. During the life or death struggle for independence in 1948 the US did not deliver a single weapon to Israel. After the first two decades there was qualified assistance.

    Farrakhan is the one who called Judaism a “gutter religion” and praised Hitler as “a great man.”

  315. 324 Kelsie in Houston
    October 13, 2008 at 00:27

    @Mike:

    The answer to your question is probably right here:

    She will live — without her parents — in an ancient temple in Katmandu where she will become a tourist attraction until she reaches puberty and loses her divine status.

  316. 325 Julie P
    October 13, 2008 at 00:27

    @Bryan,

    It is conclusive, if you clicked on the link that showed the birth certificate. The date for snopes.com is not irrelevant as snopes confirms or disproves internet rumors. Snopes.com proved the internet rumor about Obama’s birth certificate as an urban legend in August. It is valid.

  317. October 13, 2008 at 00:28

    Bryan~

    Farrakhan’s hateful speech turned him into a loser in the market place of ideas. His political influence is about the same as Lyndon LaRouche’s.

  318. 327 Julie P
    October 13, 2008 at 00:29

    @Bryan,

    One more thing. I defended McCain when the internet rumors were flying that he was not eligible to run for president because he was born in Panama. Try to do show the same rspect and consideration for others, like Obama.

  319. 328 Julie P
    October 13, 2008 at 00:35

    From factcheck.org

    http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html

    In June, the Obama campaign released a digitally scanned image of his birth certificate to quell speculative charges that he might not be a natural-born citizen. But the image prompted more blog-based skepticism about the document’s authenticity. And recently, author Jerome Corsi, whose book attacks Obama, said in a TV interview that the birth certificate the campaign has is “fake.”

    We beg to differ. FactCheck.org staffers have now seen, touched, examined and photographed the original birth certificate. We conclude that it meets all of the requirements from the State Department for proving U.S. citizenship. Claims that the document lacks a raised seal or a signature are false. We have posted high-resolution photographs of the document as “supporting documents” to this article. Our conclusion: Obama was born in the U.S.A. just as he has always said.

  320. 329 Amy
    October 13, 2008 at 00:42

    Bryan,

    I don’t see the relevance of Raila Odinga being a cousin of Obama. Michelle Obama has a cousin that is a rabbi. Do families all have to practice the same faith? Also, do families have to have the same views? If so, my family is so messed up. We agree on somethings (The Chicago Cubs are better than the Chicago White Sox) but disagree on many others. Not everyone in my family is Catholic. That would have no bearing on whether or not I would have good policies or make a good President. I am raising my daughters to look upon other faiths with respect. They may have to sit through services which have aspects that they don’t agree with but just because they attend doesn’t mean they are endorsing that faith or agree with everything (or anything) that the pastor/imam/rabbi or whoever is saying. You can disagree with someone and their views and still be friends. It’s called the “let’s agree to disagree” policy.

  321. 330 Kelsie in Houston
    October 13, 2008 at 01:33

    @global markets:
    The Asian markets have opened and appear to be reacting positively to news from Europe, Australia, and the United States:
    • the BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7666477.stm

    • Bloomberg: http://bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=awk3mGZOAKXk&refer=home

    Also: the Independent reports that the Royal Bank of Scotland (RBS) and Halifax Bank of Scotland (HBOS) are both to be nationalised:
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/banking-giants-to-be-nationalised-959284.html

  322. 331 Jennifer
    October 13, 2008 at 01:36

    @ Bryan

    People who do not support Sarah Palin are going to knit-pick until they find a valid reason to not support her. No amount of discussion is going to change that. They can’t just come out and say they aren’t willing to reexamine their beliefs or that they are only willing to support a woman who makes the same choices they do so they validate it with rumors and smear tactics.

  323. 332 Dennis@OCC
    October 13, 2008 at 01:58

    Re: Nepal’s New Living Goddess, Age 3

    At least, in my own opinion—this little girl, and her family will have
    a semi-bright future!!!

    Re: Sarah Palin
    I am not voting for her, but people are going to knit-pick her mis-deeds
    until they can not support and in return John McCain….

    Dennis

  324. October 13, 2008 at 01:59

    Jennifer~

    Please put me into the “nit-picker” camp. Ms Palin lost my “support” when she winked at the camera during the debate with Biden. What if a man had done that?

  325. 334 Kelsie in Houston
    October 13, 2008 at 02:31

    @the pro-Obama camp:
    Let’s face it, folks: we’re a pack of nit-picking, biased, blinders-on, terrorist-supporting Acorn members. Anyone with a gram of common sense or independent thought should be supporting Mr McCain and Mrs Palin, otherwise you’re obviously nit-picking and non-objective. Only supporters of Mr McCain and Mrs Palin are objective.

    Seriously…

    @Jennifer:
    I respect your right to support Mr McCain and Mrs Palin, and I am sure you have good, sensible reasons for doing so. However, please don’t insinuate that the rest of us are biased or “nit-picking” simply because we choose not to support the McCain/Palin campaign. We’ve just as much right to our opinion as you do–are you “nit-picking” because you choose not to support the Obama/Biden ticket? No–you made your choice, and we respect that even as we choose to criticise Mrs Palin’s candidacy; that is what political activism is. You’re asking us to do something totally incongruous to the electoral milieu if you expect supporters of Mr Obama to refrain from asking tough questions of Mrs Palin.

    The point is: supporters on both sides choose their candidates for reasons unique and personal to each voter. Accusing supporters of one side of being “nit-picky” because they choose not to back your candidate is untenable.

  326. 335 Amy
    October 13, 2008 at 02:37

    Jennifer,

    You could take your statement to Bryan at 1:36 and replace Sarah Palin with Barack Obama, her with him and tweak “they are only willing to support a woman who makes the same choices they do so they validate it with rumors and smear tactics” to ” they are not willing to support an African-American so they validate it with rumors and smear tactics” and there is the argument from the “left side”.

    And yes, I would support a woman who makes the same choices as me or would at least support my choice. Sarah Palin doesn’t represent me as a woman or as a mother. I disagree with her on pretty much everything. And forgive me, but I would like the VP to be able to name a few newspapers and magazines they have read and be familiar with their running mate’s record. The VP will be a representative of our country and after the last 8 years, I’d like to have someone with some intelligence in the position.

  327. October 13, 2008 at 02:55

    Pink (October 12, 2008 at 10:02 pm),

    I agree with all of those, but I don’t think the government should be the provider of them. I think people should be able to afford them with their own money. It will require the government to intervene less in personal finances and more in being guardians of the system. Concentrating more on keeping the top and the bottom closer together and less on programs that just give these extended basic needs away.

    Two things that seem reasonable to encourage this situation is one wage control. By that I mean that a company that has a CEO that makes $10 million a year should not have janitors, clerks, stock people, even engineers and accountants that have to put things on credit to achieve these needs. Which leads me to the second issue. The government should control and regulate who can get credit. The thought stream is that if I make $40,000 and have no credit cards, I am being outbid for goods and services by somebody making the same wage but with $40,000 in credit.

    If I am trying to live responsibly and not build a lot of debt and I walk into a car dealership trying to buy a car and tell the guy I have saved up and want to pay $10,000 for a new car, he is going to laugh. I have this guy over here willing to go into debt for the same car for $20,000. If neither of us were able to do that, the price would be more reasonable. That or the dealer wouldn’t sell many cars.

  328. 337 Jennifer
    October 13, 2008 at 03:51

    @ Kelsie

    Here are my reasons for supporting Sarah Palin. Let me know if they meet your approval.

    In my opinion, she is a woman to admire. I feel like as a Christian, she is someone who shares my basic moral values. Want to be gay? Fine. I won’t be walking around with a shirt on that says something offensive about homosexuality. However, it goes against my beliefs. Have a civil union, but marriage should be between one man and one woman.

    Sarah Palin has much more experience and presence than Obama on his best day. She has a son who has special needs. My brother has CP. I know that my mother would agree with her when she made the statement of seeing her child as being perfect in every way despite him having special needs.

    I do not appreciate the fact that the media has made a laughing stop of this woman and insulted her intelligence, family, and even her accent and the fact that she WINKS on occasion. I feel that they underestimate her and have subjected her to harsher scrutiny than a man would EVER be subjected to.

  329. 338 Jennifer
    October 13, 2008 at 03:51

    There is NOTHING appealing to me about having the choice to murder my baby. Having an abortion will not “fix the problem”. I suggest you go and look up actual abortion experiences. There is NO dignity in having to go through that and I don’t think the shame and guilt of it would ever go away. However, maybe that is only my personal feeling and I am oversentimental. So many Obama supporters are concerned about global warming but not the life of a human baby?

    With regards to racism and the way black people are discriminated against. I don’t want a president who has a chip on his shoulder and makes race an issue. I don’t and I don’t want race shoved down my throat. Barack Obama’s associations with a church that is anti white just smacks of bitterness. I don’t think he is as extreme as his wife is though. If she is concerned about racism and discrimination maybe she needs to do some reading about how native Americans have been treated in the past. Granted, there are native Americans that are racist but many have simply let the past be the past. We can not progress if people live in the past. I am not saying America is perfect and everyone sings campfire songs every night but we have made steady strides towards improvement for all American people.

    With regards to Obama’s directions for our country; I don’t feel the way to go when we are in economic turmoil is to create tons of new programs. I do believe people would rather have their homes, food, gas, jobs, over free healthcare. His campaign does nothing but try to annihilate an entire political party because it’s all Bush’s fault! Both democrats and republicans got us into the mess we are in. It will take both to make things right. Making initiatives 10 years in the future is of no use to me today. A pres. can’t even serve more than 2 terms.

  330. 339 Jennifer
    October 13, 2008 at 03:52

    I am in no way knit-picking. I always think things out and I have gave alot of though to who I will be voting for. I am a democrat but I think I am turning republican slowly.

    I have never stated that anyone here does not have the right to have their own opinion. By all means, please, believe as you want to. I am not trying to change any opinions. My comments were directed at Bryan and even though I passed your comments to me by you still addressed me again. I could give you more reasons why I don’t support Obama but for the sake of space I won’t bother.

  331. 340 Kelsie in Houston
    October 13, 2008 at 04:00

    @Jennifer:

    • On marriage: fine–we categorically disagree (and Mr Obama is a Christian, too, as is Mr Biden–not a unique factor to Mrs Palin in any way), but you’ve you’re reasons, and can articulate them. Kudos.

    • Having a child with special needs is quite a bit different from running the “free world.” That’s a non-issue. Mr Biden lost his wife and daughter in a car wreck–no one is suggesting the enormous pain he went through is somehow a qualifying factor in his favour.

    • Jennifer, the American media has made a “laughingstock” of politicians since there were media covering politics in the United States–imagine how John Adams and Thomas Jefferson made it through the volcanic election of 1800, with both parties alleging sexual, racial improprieties on the other. If Mrs Palin can’t handle a bit of humour over her winking (yes, it is excessive–but not a real issue), how will she possibly hold up when dealing with Kim Jong-Il or Hu Jintao?

    • Obviously you’re very emotional about abortion. That is understandable and fine. It’s unfair, however, for you to extrapolate that and claim Mr Obama’s supporters are more concerned with global warming than children. I am an Obama supporter, but much more importantly, I am fiercely supportive of UNICEF, the UN Children’s Fund–I do not agree at all with your generalisation that we are “concerned about global warming but not the life of a human baby?” If Republicans (or Mrs Palin) are more concerned, where is the Republican administration’s willpower on Darfur? Rwanda?

  332. 341 Kelsie in Houston
    October 13, 2008 at 04:07

    @Jennifer, continued:

    • Re: racism–Mr Obama has consistently pointed out that race is not a part of his campaign message and will not form a part of his administration’s ethic should he be elected. However, one can also not ignore his uniqueness as the first black American with a realistic chance of becoming President. That isn’t “shoving race” down anyone’s throat anymore than the plaudits for Mrs Palin’s uniqueness as the first RNC female ticket member are “shoving sexism” down anyone’s throat.

    No one is living in the past, Jennifer, but as a historian myself I have to quote Jorge Santayana: “Those who forget the past are condemned to relive it.” We cannot simply toss out the “baby with the bathwater,” so to speak, in regards to our history. You are upset with Mrs Obama’s statements clinging to the past even as you do the same with natives–whom, I agree, were grossly mistreated by the United States: mistreatment that continues.

    • I don’t know why Mr Obama is stigmatised with this creation of “lots of programs” to solve the economic crisis. Mr Bush’s administration–specifically Mr Paulson, the Secretary of the Treasury–engineered the “bailout” for the American banking system; and it was passed with bipartisan support. “Making initiatives 10 years in the future is of no use to me today.” That is dangerous shortsightedness, Jennifer; our decisions have global impact, we should be scrupulous in looking as far into the future as possible when considering them.

    • You protest that you aren’t “trying to change opinions” even as your previous post (the one I replied to) lambasted the majority of us here for refusing to change our opinions of Mrs Palin vis-á-vis Mr Obama. We are interested in sharing opinions and debating them…this sacrosanct insularity about “opinions” does no one any good–discussion is what WHYS is about.

  333. 342 Amy
    October 13, 2008 at 04:13

    Jennifer,

    Just because I am pro-choice doesn’t mean I am providing a taxi service to the clinic. I know that abortion is a very emotional issue. But just because I believe that option should be available doesn’t make me me care more about global warming than a human life.

    On another issue, if you direct a comment to a certain person anyone can respond because we all read the posts. If you would like to correspond directly with Bryan to keep the comments private, let me know and I will check with Bryan and then we can facilitate the exchange of email addresses. I’ve done that before and have no problem with doing it if both parties agree.

  334. October 13, 2008 at 04:16

    Politics:
    Regarding abortion, I want to see the number of abortions go down. Based on what I have read so far, I think that the Democrats do a much better job at keeping women out of abortion clinics than do Republicans. It says a lot for your pro-life verbiage if your social policies have people desperate to reduce their family-establishing efforts, from marriage to having babies. See my blog, linked with my ID, and in particular my post on Abortion Policies

  335. October 13, 2008 at 04:18

    Economy & Social Policies
    I am so sorry for not using headers – I really could not think of how to head my posts lately.

    336 Dwight From Cleveland October 13, 2008 at 2:55 am
    Pink (October 12, 2008 at 10:02 pm, #314)
    I agree with all of those, but I don’t think the government should be the provider of them. I think people should be able to afford them with their own money. It will require the government to intervene less in personal finances and more in being guardians of the system. Concentrating more on keeping the top and the bottom closer together and less on programs that just give these extended basic needs away.

    Dwight, I think that the government should provide some of those things completely, some partially, and legislate wages so that the rest is accessible.

  336. 345 Dennis@OCC
    October 13, 2008 at 05:16

    @ Robert’s post at 8.57pm on 12 October 2008

    I know, i have family members that live FAR from there means in sense of money….

    i pretty much live on a very subsidize lifestyle here….

    [some people, waste a lot of money, by eating out for every meal…]

    Dennis

  337. 346 Jennifer
    October 13, 2008 at 05:56

    @ Kelsie

    Do you have a child with special needs? I encourage you to speak with a parent who has a special needs child if the answer is no. I think maybe if you were to do that, you would get a better understanding of what I was meaning by my statement. It was in NO WAY about gaining votes.

    Please, tell me when the media asked Obama what newspapers and magazines he has read to prove his intelligence? If he was going to be able to handle taking care of his children and being in office at the same time? I think Sarah Palin does a great job holding her own but as a woman, I would have to be blind to not that she is subjected to more crap than probably Obama, Biden, and McCain put together. The vulgarity of what some consider jokes about her is just disgusting. I think Sarah Palin could “handle” meeting with world leaders just fine! As a matter of fact, they might even treat her with more respect as a person than many Americans have.

    Obviously I am; considering it’s not just harmful to the baby but to the mother. When you consider both the medical problems that can result with the psychological ones; it can be detrimental. I didn’t generalize anyone. That comment has been made on here more than once about global warming and even ariel hunting of wolves. Noone answers it and I guess that’s why you wanted to discuss UNICEF instead. It’s admirable that there are people who care for children who are living-were given the chance to be born. It’s wonderful that as a man, you pull out the old checkbook and stick some moolah in the mail and have a clean conscience! If you feel Obama is the best way to go, please vote for him.

  338. 347 Jennifer
    October 13, 2008 at 06:19

    @ Kelsie

    I have been called a racist more times than I can count for saying I would not be voting for Obama. That is having a racial chip on your shoulder and connecting everything to race; which I do not do! There is a difference in being culturally aware and a racist. I do not use the fact that I am native American as being justification for being bitter towards everyone of a different color.

    Creating new programs takes time and money; neither of which we have an overabundance of. George Bush has nothing to do with our future at this point. That is the past. No more passing the buck or blaming him. Obama is extremely liberal; much more than I think is appropriate. Shortsightedness is spending money we don’t have to deal with all the social problems we have without ensuring our overall economic stability. We have to reign all the spending in until we are stable.

    My comment had @ Bryan before it. It was to him. You chose to take offense to it. I honestly do not seek to change your opinion or anyone else’s on this blog. The only reason I chose to respond to you was because I figured if I didn’t you would continue! Like I told you before, this is just a blog. As my mom would say chill out.

  339. 348 Amy
    October 13, 2008 at 06:34

    Jennifer,

    Did Sen. Obama call you a racist personally? If not, then please don’t say he has a chip on his shoulder. Yes, some people do and they need to get over it no matter what the color of their skin. I also don’t think that anyone here on the blog has called you a racist. There are some who have different opinions than you do and others that share your views. No one here has ever accused anyone of being racist. It wouldn’t get past the moderators (hopefully)

  340. 349 Bob in Queensland
    October 13, 2008 at 08:00

    Well, the Aussie stock exchange has closed more than 5% up after last week’s falls. Will London then New York follow suit?

    Were the falls then today’s rise more to do with panic then profit taking than anything to do with actual market conditions?

  341. 351 Bob in Queensland
    October 13, 2008 at 09:01

    And, following on from Pink, MORE DETAILS OF THE AUSTRALIAN STOCK MARKET..

  342. 352 Pangolin-California
    October 13, 2008 at 09:39

    Jennifer~ I can’t believe that you’re going so low as to praise Sara Palin for having a “special needs” child. She’s done everything in her power to kill that kid short of having an abortion or putting it in the oven.

    Just for starters hiding her pregnancy wasn’t exactly allowing people to help and respect her need to nurture a life. Her bizarre tale of traveling for twenty hours while in early labor put the baby’s life at risk. The child is obviously NOT being breast-fed as schedules like Mrs. Palin’s are well known to dry milk flow. Then they haul this kid with a sensitive immune system into large crowds several times a day.

    She’s a crappy mother and if she were a Democratic political candidate we’d hear about nothing else on the news. If she were black or latino to boot the screams would shake the heavens.

    Oh, yeah; you do seem to promote the politics of lily-white-exceptionalism. It comes with being a conservative in the US. White privilege and all that.

  343. 353 Pangolin-California
    October 13, 2008 at 09:49

    @ Bob~ What we have here is a great opportunity to short stocks. The people of the US, or anywhere else have less income than they had in June and far less in the way of assets. Now credit has been throttled down as well.

    When it occurs to people that the market cannot recover without income and layoffs do not produce “consumer confidence” the stocks will come crashing back down. I give the uptick less than a week.

  344. 354 Bryan
    October 13, 2008 at 10:31

    What we have here is a failure to communicate – in a respectful, venom-free fashion.

  345. 355 Kelsie in Houston
    October 13, 2008 at 10:52

    @Jennifer:
    • I don’t have a child with special needs, and it would matter very little if I had: that is simply not a qualifier for the Vice Presidential role. Mrs Palin has qualifying factors in her favour that do not involve special needs children—it would do your and the GOP’s stance much better to emphasize those, instead of trying to go down this route.

    • Mr Obama is a lawyer, a member of four committees in the Senate (including the influential Committee on Foreign Relations), has toured the world, and managed a campaign that triumphed over the Clinton political machine across a vast nation with a huge electorate. He frankly does not need to prove his political acumen. Mrs Palin’s experience, unfortunately, does not add up so easily–this is why people are curious about how she interacts with the world via the media.

    She is “subjected to more crap” because less is known about her than Mr McCain, Mr Biden, or Mr Obama. The electorate is curious about her–at the time of her nomination, most of us were unfamiliar with Mrs Palin as a person, much less as a political leader. I simply do not accept this idea that we should take Mrs Palin on faith while digging deeply into Mr Obama’s past.

    • I have never called you a racist, and to my knowledge, no one else here has, either. I don’t think there’s any reason to think you’re a racist, judging from your participation here. I’ve no idea who that paragraph is addressing, but it’s not the WHYS community that’s been interacting with you…

  346. 356 Kelsie in Houston
    October 13, 2008 at 10:56

    @Jennifer:

    • Mr Bush not part of our future? The conflicts in the Middle East–whether one agrees with them or not, are shaping our future right now: that’s Mr Bush. The administration’s economic policies–the same thing. His stance on Russia, global climate change, etc. and so forth…

    • Your sarcasm regarding my support for UNICEF is uncalled-for, Jennifer, especially when I have personally been very courteous to you throughout this debate. You did generalise when you accused Obama supporters of being “concerned about global warming but not the life of a baby.”

    I do not “pull out the old checkbook and stick some moolah in the mail and have a clean conscience,” Jennifer–how dare you insinuate that I and others advocate UNICEF’s causes simply to “have a clean conscience”? UNICEF has done more for the world’s children than any other organisation in the world’s long history–including “pro-lifers”. In sixty years, UNICEF has done more for children than the United States of America have in 232 years.

    I give of my resources (which are more than money) to UNICEF because I believe absolutely in what it does–I am neither Democrat nor Republican: I vote according to the strictures and ideals presented in the Convention on the Rights of the Child (CRC)–for the candidate who will advance the ideas contained in that document. I am deeply offended by your trivialisation of what it means to support UNICEF, especially when I and the vast majority of us interacting with you have been scrupulous to give your arguments a fair, respectful hearing.

    Have another dip in the GOP pool of delusion if you’d like, Jennifer; I’m done on this page.

  347. 357 Brett
    October 13, 2008 at 11:59

    Portland Mike on Palin’s wink:
    What if a man had done that?

    He would have been thought of as either:
    A) Gay (and all of the homophobes would have been all over it)
    or
    B) A Pig

  348. 358 Brett
    October 13, 2008 at 12:05

    But its OK for Palin to wink, aw gee because she’s just so cute don’t-cha-know!

    She was winking at Joe-Six-Pack and the Hockey Moms, aw golly she’s just so down to earth!

  349. 359 Pangolin-California
    October 13, 2008 at 12:21

    Bryan~ Those who advocate for charnel-house politics shouldn’t object when the occasional gobbet of mire flies their way.

    Kelsie~ In politics one should forgive the dog that snaps and put down a dog that bites. It’s very important to know the difference. Right now the world has a massive gobbet of flesh torn out of it’s collective rear taken by neo-conservatives. It’s time to put that dog down.

  350. 360 Roberto
    October 13, 2008 at 13:15

    RE financial crisis:

    Wall Street spokesman Allan Sloan reports on NPR that the Wilshire Index folks figure Wall Street has dropped $8 trillion in value from this time last year.

    $8 trillion…..poof…….vanished…….majic markets…….abracadabra……..here today, gone tomorrow modern economics.

  351. 361 Roberto
    October 13, 2008 at 13:28

    RE 2008 presidential campaign:
    ————————————————————————————————–

    ——– Cokie Roberts says “polls” show 30% of the voters could still swing either way although the polls also show Obama with the lead.

    In other words, they don’t know squat about how the vote will go, but they have to say something to get paid.

    Brilliant!

  352. 362 Jennifer
    October 13, 2008 at 14:16

    @ Kelsie

    Placing blame on George Bush for everything is not accomplishing anything. All it does is play a blame game. I feel that Obama has done a great job making people fear an entire political party when the fact that we are in the mess we are in is because BOTH parties made mistakes, not just George Bush-not just republicans! To live in the past is wrong and does nothing to make the future better in any way.

    I am being truthful with you; not sarcastic. You will never firsthand deal with an abortion so it is easy for you to downplay and disregard how horrible it can be. I never downplayed UNICEF or the work they do. You offended me more with your statement of children with special needs than anything else you have said to me. If you KNEW someone who had a special needs child you would know the special love they evoke and the hardships they face. It gives a person an entirely different outlook. A person with that outlook would be an great in the White House.

    Many, many, times I have seen horrible things about Sarah Palin wrote here but I chalk it up to how it is. I don’t interject myself into the middle of a conversation that was not directed at me. However, it was wrong of me, having a different opinion, to speak to someone who also had a different opinion just because you were insulted by my comment? If that’s the case, many of the posts here would need to be deleted because offense has been taken. My message to Bryan was not a private conversation; it was pertaining to the course of this discussion. In a nutshell it was save your effort. You can’t have a conversation with a wall.

  353. 363 Jennifer
    October 13, 2008 at 14:40

    @ Amy

    I was speaking of people I know personally! 😉

    Race seems to have an unspoken presence in this election. I think it’s why people see him as change. I hope people take time to think about what his policies would mean for us, look long and hard at what he has been a part of, and read just as much into what he does not say as what he does.

  354. 364 Brett
    October 13, 2008 at 14:49

    Race seems to have an unspoken presence in this election. I think it’s why people see him as change.

    Your absolutely right, and what a shame it is. Theres whites who won’t vote for Obama because he’s black, or ‘muslim’. Theres blacks who’s main driving force for voting Obama is due to him being black. Theres women who are hopping on the Palin ticket because she is a woman. Theres men doing likewise.
    So much rests on gender and race in this presidential race it’s wild.
    The pettyness and sexism / racism is really showing the American peoples true colors in this race. Horay for change! We either get a woman as VP or a mixed race guy as Pres. Either way it’s ‘change’ lol.

  355. 365 Pangolin-California
    October 13, 2008 at 15:15

    Brett~ An exercise program or cancer are both changes that will make a fat man lose weight; that doesn’t mean they are both beneficial.

    We have one cancer occupying the White House. Switching to a variant strain of that cancer would indeed be a change to the political body. It could be a fatal one.

  356. 366 Brett
    October 13, 2008 at 15:21

    @ Pangolin:

    Exactly.

  357. 367 Pangolin-California
    October 13, 2008 at 15:27

    Oh Nooes!! Barack Obama must be desperate for votes. He was going door to door in Ohio asking people for support. 😉

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081012/pl_nm/us_usa_politics_obama

  358. October 13, 2008 at 15:46

    Ahh hah ahah hah,

    Larry Flynt is putting the final touches on a Pornographic film featuing a Sarah Palin look alike.

    http://www.nydailynews.com/gossip/2008/10/06/2008-10-06_new_details_on_larry_flynts_sarah_palin_-1.html

  359. 369 Bryan
    October 13, 2008 at 15:51

    Jennifer October 13, 2008 at 1:36 am

    This is why I was so impressed with Camille Paglia’s perception of Sarah Palin as a feminist. That one statement has the potential to drag a helluvah lot of people out of their cocoons. Women of the pro-choice left do not have a monopoly on feminism. Perhaps this is something that they have never really considered.

    Jennifer October 13, 2008 at 3:52 am

    I scrolled but couldn’t find your comment to me. I guess it’s on another thread.

    Julie P October 13, 2008 at 12:27 am

    Julie P October 13, 2008 at 12:29 am

    The question of Obama’s country of birth is presently the subject of litigation so I don’t see how it can regarded as closed, whatever Factchecker says. I though you were joking at first when you said I should show Obama respect. I have said nothing personal against him while your good self and plenty others here haven’t exactly been holding back on the personal insults against Sarah Palin.

    Amy October 13, 2008 at 12:42 am

    There is a little bit more to the Obama and Raila Odinga story than just being cousins. As a US Senator, Obama campaigned on Odinga’s behalf on a visit to Kenya and funded him with US tax dollars. When Odinga lost the election and his supporters went on their murderous rampages across Kenya, at the very least he sat back and did nothing to stop them.

  360. 370 Bryan
    October 13, 2008 at 16:15

    Dwight From Cleveland October 13, 2008 at 3:46 pm,

    I’m surprised at you. What exactly is this adding to the debate? Are you just trying to provide more proof that the Democrat supporters have gone totally overboard in trashing Sarah Palin?

    Here’s a clip from New York City – that centre of cultural excellence, tolerance of diversity and progressive intellectual achievement:

    Turns out if you walk down the street there with placards supporting McCain, you’ll find out just how cultured, tolerant and progressive New York actually is.

  361. 371 Dennis@OCC
    October 13, 2008 at 17:58

    Re: Bob in Queensland and everyone about markets in New York….
    They look like they are up for the day so far as of 12.45pm eastern time….

    Re: Palin “wink”
    if this was a guy, should be accused of being gay or even a pig…

    Re: Larry Flint and the porno movie of “Sarah Palin”….
    Please, Larry Flint–do not run it….

    Dennis

  362. October 13, 2008 at 18:03

    Bryan,

    What I am pointing out is that somebody is finally saying that, “the emperor has no cloths.” This time by actually showing the emperor with out clothing.

    Look the reason there is nobody attacking Sarah “Miss Congeniality” Palin’s academic accomplishments is because she has none. She has a resume that looks like the one I wrote leaving school. It was full of obvious embellishments and light on actual experience. She is puddle deep. Like the fools we laugh at on “American Idol” that can’t sing but get up in front of a national audience and prove it. Sarah Palin is the “William Hung” of politics.

    What I am “adding” is more laughter to the already hilarious comedy. The funny part is on FOX they are a gasp that people might believe it is her? No mention that people might believe that Obama is a Muslim terrorist.

    “New York… Well it is New York.”

  363. 373 Jennifer
    October 13, 2008 at 18:52

    @ Bryan

    Re: Video

    That was a very interesting video. If it were democrats marching in a place that was more supportive of McCain would they tolerate that type of treatment or would it be in every paper for weeks with them as victims of discrimination?

  364. 374 Bryan
    October 13, 2008 at 20:01

    The funny part is on FOX they are a gasp that people might believe it is her? No mention that people might believe that Obama is a Muslim terrorist.

    Dwight, Obama is far more likely to be a Muslim terrorist than Palin is to be a porn star:

    *Louis Farrakhan
    *Khalid al-Mansour
    *Raila Odinga

    What do these three have in common?

    Jennifer,

    Dunno if it would have made the papers if the roles had been reversed, probably because there was no actual violence. I just thought it was quite an important bit of piece to add to the huge body of evidence of the intolerance of Democrat supporters. And we have Justin Webb adding to the BBC’s growing reputation for biased and superficial coverage of this election with this statement:

    ….but the fact remains that some Republicans despise Obama in a way few Democrats despise McCain.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/10/getting_angry.html

    Obviously he never saw the video. More to the point, I have no doubt that he would never look at a video like that because it would challenge his prejudices.

  365. 375 Bryan
    October 13, 2008 at 20:08

    Dwight, I meant to add that it is quite possible that people will believe it is her. Without seeing Flynt’s movie, some might think he has dug up evidence of her past. It is really a foul thing that Flynt is doing. It is actually amazing that he can get away with something that low.

  366. 376 Julie P
    October 13, 2008 at 20:40

    @Bryan,

    If you want to dispute Obama’s birth certificate, then by all means do. It has been proven be real and authentic, however, there are those who insist in believing conspiracy theories.

  367. 377 Jonathan
    October 13, 2008 at 21:33

    @Bryan~

    Your obsession with American politics is disturbing because you seem so cheerfully uninterested in actual facts and issues here, and worse yet, incurious about them. You cheer and jeer as if at a boxing match staged for amusement.

    This is not just a game to us. We must live with the results. By directing your formidable energy toward politics in your own country, or toward sporting events or other irrelevant endeavors, you could elevate the tenor of discourse both here and there.

  368. 378 Jennifer
    October 13, 2008 at 21:47

    @ Bryan

    Re: Pornographic video

    For the people who buy into that stuff knowing it’s not her, It’s just mocking her and is meant to tarnish her image. I know if my grandma heard about it’ she would only hear “Sarah Palin” and “pornographic video” and be wondering about it. Thankfully, most people don’t just believe what they hear but look into things. To some people, it is offensive even if its just a lookalike. If people buy the video expecting to see her they deserve what they get.

  369. 379 Jonathan
    October 13, 2008 at 21:50

    The question of Obama’s country of birth is presently the subject of litigation so I don’t see how it can regarded [sic] as closed…

    Yeeesh. Anyone can litigate anything; it’s got nothing to do with fact. That really is off the rails, intellectually and logically. I hear the rattle of thin straws being desperately grasped at. If a link to a PDF of the birth certificate doesn’t suffice, what would? A trip to the Obama home, or wherever the birth certificate resides? But it could be a forgery! So how does one imagine one might ever be satisfied about the fact? Or, for that matter, how could some judge ever determine the truth?

    This is pure malicious mischief, and it’s not enlightening, or interesting, or even amusing.

  370. 380 Julie P
    October 13, 2008 at 22:12

    @Jonathon,

    That internet rumor, like many others, have been around for a long time. They have been disputed, proven false, yet there are those who still want to believe them. No amount of reasoning will disuade people who insist on believing rumors, rumors of rumors, lies, and conspiracy theories.

  371. October 13, 2008 at 22:19

    Bryan,

    Sorry, but many porn stars were once beauty pageant contestants. Not many Terrorist are American Law graduates.

    The path and mentality one takes to being a porn star is very similar to the path one take to being a beauty pageant contestant.

    The path and mentality one takes to being a lawyer is far different then the one taken to being an extremist terrorist.

    And would you please tell me what those people have in common from your perspective?

  372. 382 selena in Canada
    October 13, 2008 at 22:25

    Sorry, but many porn stars were once beauty pageant contestants. Not many Terrorist are American Law graduates.

    You don’t think that there are porn stars who could run the country as well as it is being run?

    Some law graduates don’t know which way is up!

  373. October 13, 2008 at 23:03

    Do I think that there are porn stars that cold run the country as well as it is being run now? Yes. But I am not looking for someone to run the country better then it is right now. I do not believe there are porn stars that could run this country as it should. Do I think that there are law grads that have run this country amuck? Yes. But are there lawyers that have put this country on the right direction before? yes. Do I think that Barack is the one to do it? Well, let’s just say that it is closing time and he is the prettiest one left in the bar.

    The best chance is a law grad. Really, the best chance oddly enough is a OBGYN with a grand understanding of economics. But everybody thought he was too weird to vote for.

  374. 384 Bryan
    October 14, 2008 at 08:54

    Jennifer October 13, 2008 at 9:47 pm

    I agree with your points, but I think this one is debatable:

    Thankfully, most people don’t just believe what they hear but look into things.

    People tend to accept what they hear and read and many people don’t have the time or inclination to delve too deeply into things. Sure, there will be many people who will realise that what Flynt is doing has no bearing on who Sarah Palin really is but there will also be many who will make the connection between her and pornography without questioning it. But I guess it’s true that Flynt’s movie will mostly appeal to those who are happy to insult Sarah Palin anyway.

    Dwight From Cleveland October 13, 2008 at 10:19 pm

    Sorry, but many porn stars were once beauty pageant contestants. Not many Terrorist are American Law graduates.

    Well, I guess I walked into that one.

    The individuals on my list have radical Islam in common. You want America to continue to be eaten away from the inside out? Then help elect Obama.

    Jonathan and Julie P,

    Re litigation, are you saying that the legal system has to take on any case brought before it? Must be quite a backlog. All I’m asking here is why they have accepted this case of doubt over Obama’s country of birth if there is no possibility of doubt at all here. And I’m also wondering why Obama’s team wont produce documents relating to the case. Now you guys can mutter to yourselves and walk away, but you haven’t demonstrated why these concerns I mention are not debatable.

  375. 385 Jonathan
    October 14, 2008 at 10:39

    @Julie~

    No amount of reasoning will disuade people who insist on believing rumors, rumors of rumors, lies, and conspiracy theories.

    I guess you’re right, but I don’t see why we must provide them a forum. Since surely reasoning is what we’re here for, the repetitive, oblivious ranting of the people you describe stretches the bounds of “open discussion” past the breaking point.

    @Bryan~

    No, I’m not “saying that the legal system has to take on any case brought before it.” Yes, I have “demonstrated why these concerns [you] mention are not debatable.” I explained it completely and precisely, by illustrating the absurdity of your position. You refuse to acknowledge the validity of a birth certificate that you saw for yourself, and you refuse to say what “documents” other than the birth certificate would convince you of where someone was born, and you ignored my question of whether, and why, you would be persuaded by some legal opinion when you aren’t psersuaded by the actual document.

  376. 386 Bryan
    October 14, 2008 at 12:02

    Not knowing what specifically to look out for, who would be able to judge the validity of a US birth certificate if he held it in his hand, leave alone saw it on the net? And I’m not “persuaded” one way or another. You are still evading my point. I have never said that I don’t believe he was born in the US. I’ve only expressed doubt and there is more than enough information out there to warrant it. I’m prepared to wait to see what happens with the legal tangle. You evidently are not since you have made up your mind.


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