Talking Points 30 September

Even though the failure of the bail out bill is the biggest news for most people, there ARE still other topics worth discussing and several bloggers have asked for a Talking Points.  So…by popular demand, here you go!

Have fun discussing Pakistan, gun toting doctors in Baghdad and anything else that takes your fancy!

However, it’s worth keep discussion of the financial situation in the other topic…and don’t forget the various topics for tonight’s show from Ireland!

75 Responses to “Talking Points 30 September”

  1. September 30, 2008 at 05:41

    Pakistanis flee into Afghanistan (BBC)
    The UN says 20,000 people have fled Pakistan’s tribal area of Bajaur for Afghanistan amid fighting between troops and militants in recent months.

    I remember when Afghani refugees were flooding into Pakistan in 2001/2002. One of the more elite Pakistani ladies to whom I expressed my relief that they had somewhere to go contradicted me with her claims that the refugees were sapping Pakistan’s precious economic resources, as if money were somehow more important than people’s lives. I wonder what that same lady would say now.

  2. September 30, 2008 at 05:44

    Ukraine is sending weapons and military equipment to the government of South Sudan (breakaway).

    (@ mods I posted to TP; it belongs there)

  3. 3 jamily5
    September 30, 2008 at 06:33

    I use to think that we, the US had the worst attitudes to foreigners:
    ( (Mexicans to ?TX and CA: Cubans to FL;) But, I know that it happens everywhere.
    Even when KaTrina hit, some of Texas was only hospitable for so long. And, I hear the same from Ghana citizens about Liberia,
    We heard about South Africans not wanting Zimbabweans in their borders and I have heard the same kind of rhetoric from some Kenyans and Ethiopians about Sudanese.

    I have read somewhere about Australia’s … … “White laws?” (bob, help me out, I just saw it in a documentary that Australia was restricting some immigrants and making their tests more rigorous).
    I wonder if Spain does this to Moroccans?
    But, from what I know, this is rampid and I guess, “normal human behavior.”
    Sad, really!

  4. 4 jamily5
    September 30, 2008 at 06:33

    Where are the gun toating doctors???

  5. September 30, 2008 at 07:00

    Jamily, Iraq has passed a law allowing doctors to carry guns to protect themselves. Kidnappers target doctors and other educated Iraqi’s who are so necessary for the survival of Iraq.

  6. 6 Pangolin-California
    September 30, 2008 at 07:05

    @ Pirates~ As a true Pastafarian and servent of the Flying Spaghetti Monster I must say that the increase in pirates is slowing down global warming but one thing bothers me.

    How is it with the US parking the world’s most powerful ever naval armada just around the corner at the mouth of the Persian Gulf that these Somali pirates manage to survive? A single destroyer and blimp team could moniter them and send the lot to Davy Jones locker in a month.

    The protestations of respecting international borders is just weak; we’re occupying two countries and raiding in several others.

    What use are pirates to the US government?

  7. September 30, 2008 at 07:06

    There are several stories that are interesting on Yahoo’s Middle East news page at http://news.yahoo.com/i/736;_ylt=Atp6hE8Fg3v32GcsIX0FtKlvaA8F .

    Shana tova! Does anyone plan on doing anything special for Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur? It is supposed to be a season of atonement, reflection, and self-purification, from what I understand.

  8. 8 Tom (of Melbourne)
    September 30, 2008 at 07:12

    @ Jamily5,

    Australia has recently introduced a citizenship exam to test candidates on their knowledge of Australia. Prior to the exam candidates would need to read a study book before being quizzed on topics ranging from the parliamentary system, important events in Australian history, and even to name its best cricketer. It really is a test on the candidate’s english competency. Failure rate of those who took the exam was reported to be between 15%-20%.

    In the past the Australian immigration policy, known as the “White Australian Policy”, wasfar more discriminatory. Its chief purpose was to keep Austraila white. One of the discriminatory requirements was for non-White or other unwanted candidates to undergo a dictation test. This test could be conducted in ANY European languages. So if a Chinese or Indian is fluent in English, he could be asked to sit the test in French. If he managed to pass that, he could then be asked to take another test in another language, etc.

    The country has came a long long way since then. Half a century ago who would have thought that Australia would one day have a Prime Minister who speaks Mandarin!

  9. 9 Peter
    September 30, 2008 at 07:23

    @ Jamily5
    “I have read somewhere about Australia’s … … “White laws?” (bob, help me out, I just saw it in a documentary that Australia was restricting some immigrants and making their tests more rigorous)”.

    Way I see it, the Aussies are far more street wise than the rest of the west,Jamily.They wont stand Hispanics coming into their country in the hordes and compelling the host country to speak Spanish(read here America).They wont stand Moslems swarming in and re-writing the laws of free-speech(read here UK).That,my friend, on the Aussie’s part, is good sense as far as Im concerned.

    Now that the world is so sold on the idea of preserving endangered species,why isnt anyone worried about host societies(read England and the US here)being wiped out culturally and otherwise by flooding immigrants who in the main procreate like rugrats and insist on creating their insular worlds?Someday soon I intend to visit England and I want it to remain England and not a corner of the MiddleEast or Africa or some other whatnot place,please.I live and am from Africa,and I’ve had it up to ‘here’ with Africa,thank you very much.

  10. 10 Tom D Ford
    September 30, 2008 at 08:06

    @ Pangolin-California September 30, 2008 at 7:05 am

    “What use are pirates to the US government?”

    An obvious redundancy, the current US government are pirates!

  11. 11 Roberto
    September 30, 2008 at 09:08

    RE “”the failure of the bail out bill is the biggest news””

    ——— The failure is a delay. The reformed bill gets passed after all the political posturing is done.

    These pols have to face reelection and need to act like they stood up to the hijacking of the American tax payer by wall street even if they fell in line with the rest of the traitors.

  12. 12 thedayafter
    September 30, 2008 at 10:05

    This page was created based on popular demand? 11 comments at this time of the day? ROFL. You must be having a laugh!!

  13. 13 Jessica in NYC
    September 30, 2008 at 11:05

    Sorry– my head is exploding with US news drama right now, but for the rest of you:

    A heart of gold: A bus driver in Vancouver is brightening the moods of his riders by hosting his own on-bus trivia game, and giving out chocolate prizes for correct answers. (I’d goo to Vancouver to ride his bus!)

    CTV British Columbia: David Kincaid with the trivia bus video or read the news story here from The Province.

  14. September 30, 2008 at 11:19

    Hi gang ! :-)… May I 1stly wish a very special Happy Eid Al Fitr to all Muslim WHYSers and to all Muslims everywhere around the world and especially in Iraq, Palestine, Afghanistan, Darfur, and Somalia ?! :-)….
    Here’s an Iraqi story for all of you gang :
    With my love… Yours forever, Lubna in Baghdad….

  15. 15 Jessica in NYC
    September 30, 2008 at 11:34

    @ jamily5

    “I use to think that we, the US had the worst attitudes to foreigners..”

    Nope, racism and xenophobia is not limited to the US.

  16. 16 Kelsie in Houston
    September 30, 2008 at 13:02

    Lubna and Pink:
    Eid mubarak!

    Chinese reaction to the poisoned milk:

    The link isn’t working…

  17. September 30, 2008 at 13:11

    @ Defense budget,

    I really think our money could be better spent. Instead of on planes, missiles, and ships it would be more productive to infiltrate our enemy’s cultures with Asian massage parlors. A much more effective way to diffuse tensions in the Middle East I assure you. In a world where everything seem to have been done, two things have never happened. A man has never been shot while washing the dishes, and a military strike has never been order while a man was getting a massage. .

  18. 18 Dan
    September 30, 2008 at 13:26

    Does your Eid Al Fitr wishes extend to those innocents murdered in this “holy” month by Muslims?

  19. 19 Dan
    September 30, 2008 at 13:32

    I am with you!!!!

  20. 20 Bob in Queensland
    September 30, 2008 at 13:34

    @ Dan

    With respect, your rather ungracious response is a bit like rejecting somebody’s Christmas greetings because the IRA planted some bombs during advent.

  21. 21 steve
    September 30, 2008 at 13:34

    Shana Tovah to the one or two Jews out there on the blog.

  22. 22 Dan
    September 30, 2008 at 13:37

    Let’s be clear. There is NO equivalence moral or otherwise between the IRA and what Muslims are doing. NONE. Be very clear in that.
    If you cannot see that then the Muslms have clouded your mind and I feel very sorry for you but the vast number of us who see clearly understand the truth.
    Watch the DVD “Obsession” and the cloud will lift. I will send you one at no charge and I will pay overnight shipping to Australia…just for you.

  23. 23 Dan
    September 30, 2008 at 13:38

    Be inscribed along with your family for a Happy, Healthy and Prosperous New Year.

  24. 24 Nofal Elias
    September 30, 2008 at 13:44

    “Jamily, Iraq has passed a law allowing doctors to carry guns to protect themselves. Kidnappers target doctors and other educated Iraqi’s who are so necessary for the survival of Iraq.”

    I saw yesterady on BBC website a photo of sweet shop owner carrying a gun.

    Thanks you USA for spreading your gun cluture to Iraq. Never heard of it before the invasion.

    So instead of giving the Iraqies freedom & democracy, US gave the iraqie instead a freedom to carry guns.

    Wonderful, USA we owe you allot……… NOT

  25. September 30, 2008 at 13:51

    LOL @ Dan,

    See case in point. Dan and I are politically very far apart from what I have read in the past. However the introduction of “Asian Spas” and we are singing the same tune. Nothing but “purple states” :))

  26. 26 Nofal Elias
    September 30, 2008 at 14:00


    That is what makes me suspicious who is behind all the bombing in Iraq, with all the check points and high security, the bombers are still getting through to hit their targets, and none of them were caught ……. WHY?

    Why US not allowing the Iraqi Police to carry out any investagtion and must be done by US army first ……. hmmmmmmmmmmm – something really fishy here

  27. 27 steve
    September 30, 2008 at 14:05

    @ Nofal

    The US military is NOT conducting suicide bombings in Iraq or anywhere. That’s up there with 9/11 conspiracy theories.

  28. September 30, 2008 at 14:11

    @ Steve,

    Are they fighting on their home land or with a technologically and/ or superior army? Are the soldiers faithful and convinced the land they are protecting is sacred and anybody who dies protecting it is guaranteed a place in paradise afterwards? What is the ratio of attacks in Iraq by the US to attacks in the US by Iraqis?

  29. 29 Nofal Elias
    September 30, 2008 at 14:25


    And what proof do you have ? Ah , US goverment is an honest one they do everything by the book and will not break any international law and respect humans right … etc.
    I merely putting facts on the table and trying and trying to figure out who is behind bombing the civilians.

    Any political organization would declare their resposbility of any attack straight after the event, like the IRA, or the PLO. How comes no organization would announce their involvment in any of these bombing? surely that will defet their objective of the bombing……..

  30. 30 steve
    September 30, 2008 at 14:32

    @ Nofal

    I’m just curious, if the US is doing the suicide bombings, then that means either that (1) the US is getting religious fanatics to do it, but given how much they hate the US, why would they agree to do something the US wants them to do? or (2) US soldiers themselves are conducting suicide bombings. how many soldiers do you think are suicidally insane?

    What proof do you have that the US is conducting suicide bombings? This is really Area 51 type of stuff you’re claiming

  31. 31 Nofal Elias
    September 30, 2008 at 14:43


    Now you are being silly,
    First nobody said these are suicide bombings. To pass 100s of high security check points, you must have a well organized team behind them, what are there objectives? why not announcing it to get their public support. Why none of them were caught so far. Or even display the suicide bombers identity on TV.
    The sucide bombers in 7/7 in London, their photos published within few hours and all their friends were questioned … etc
    This doesn’t happen in Iraq, why?

  32. 32 Kelsie in Houston
    September 30, 2008 at 14:51

    Has the situation improved in Atlanta?

  33. 33 Bryan
    September 30, 2008 at 14:55

    Here’s the North America editor of the “impartial” BBC savaging Sarah Palin, as usual, while completely ignoring the deficiencies of Joe Biden:

    …to divert attention from the train-wreck in St Louis on Thursday when the woman rational, educated Americans regard with ever-increasing horror steps into the ring with Joe Biden.


    This is objective, informed journalism?

  34. 34 Julie P
    September 30, 2008 at 15:26


    A major gas station chain announced yesterday that all 100 of its gas stations will have gas on Wednesday. However, it is being stressed that Atlanta will not start getting past this problem until October 13th, Columbus Day. Sorry, Kelsie, but over all we’re in for a rough ride for the foreseeable future.

  35. 35 Count Iblis
    September 30, 2008 at 15:32

    Steve, you have home grown terrorists in the US too (e.g. Mc Veigh). The motivation of these people is nationalistic in nature. In any country you have people, usually from the extreme right, sometimes also from the extreme left (e.g. the Red Army Faction in Germany), who think it is justified to target innocent people for their cause.

    In case of a foreign occupation, such groups will get many more followers. And many people who are not followers, will tolerate these people, i.e. they will not report members of these groups to the authorities for various reasons (because they symphatize with the cause of the groups, because they think that doing so would be treason, etc. etc.).

    Therefore, what you then get is a situation in which extremist groups have free reign. So, all it takes is an occupation of a functioning country (not a country like post WWII Germany of Japan), in which the occupier depends on the cooperaton of the local population.

    This is why the US is 100% responsible for all the terror attacks in Iraq. The US cannot blame the terrorists for that, just like no Zoo who releases hungy lions in populated areas should blame the lions for attacking and eating people.

  36. 36 jamily5
    September 30, 2008 at 15:41

    @Tom in Melbourne, thanks for that info!
    @Peter, I don’t look at other cultures as if they are different species.
    @All who told me about the Gun toting Docs: thanks much!@Lubna, do you want to share about your Eid? @Jewish people: Enjoy your process, may it be blessed!

  37. 37 Bob in Queensland
    September 30, 2008 at 15:46

    @ Dan

    Moral equivalence?

    Terrorism is terrorism and you are on a slippery slope when you try to justify one brand (in this case the IRA) as somehow less evil than another.

    My point was that, just as not every Roman Catholic was an IRA terrorist, not every Muslim is a Jihadist terrorist. I don’t know if you’ve ever spent any time in the Middle East or with Muslims in general but I have. I can assure you that the vast majority of Muslims are much more like your and I than you are prepared to accept…and most don’t have any more ambition for world domination than the average Christian…probably less than the evangelicals I’ve met.

  38. 38 steve
    September 30, 2008 at 15:51

    @ Bob

    While I think Dan’s views are pretty extreme, I think what he’s getting at, as that even though there is some muslim condemnation of terrorism, it’s not that loud. If muslims would condemn terrorism even 1/4th as loudly as they condemn percieved slights to Islam (ie mohammed cartoons) then I think fewer people would have views like Dan. But the muslim reaction to a mohammed cartoon is a lot bigger than the reaction to terrorism.

  39. 39 selena in Canada
    September 30, 2008 at 15:53


    Well said! I have spent time in Muslim countries and you would never have known the countries were Muslim, as far as the actions of the ordinary people were concerned.

    They were exactly the same as the people around me every day in Canada.

    You are so right! I see more of a desire for world domination from my Christian friends. Many of them believe Christ will be coming as soon as all the world has had a chance to become Christian.

  40. 40 jamily5
    September 30, 2008 at 15:56

    But Count,
    If I understand your theory correctly, then, there would be only two type of Iraqi citizens: those who are terrorists and those who sympathize with them.
    Isn’t it easier to blame others than ourselves?
    Honestly, I am not saying that the USA isn’t and shouldn’t be held accountable for their actions. But, you make it sound like that those who use explosives don’t know the difference between right and wrong and can’t mentally understand that “they” have a choice: to bomb or not to bomb!
    You can push and entice and cajole someone to do something, but eventually, it is there decision.

  41. 41 selena in Canada
    September 30, 2008 at 15:56

    This is objective, informed journalism?

    You have a point!

  42. 42 Bob in Queensland
    September 30, 2008 at 16:06

    Re: Justin Webb Blog

    I’d be interested to see if you can find similar content in an actual news report. The blogs are one of the few places the reporters can actually express an opinion and, as far as I know, are not covered by the same rules of impartiality as the newscasts.

    That said, Webb was probably just reflecting what many Americans…even Republicans…are thinking. Palin is increasingly becoming an embarrassment even to those who wanted to support her….and even my right wing friends are saying so.

  43. 43 selena in Canada
    September 30, 2008 at 16:21

    A heart of gold: A bus driver in Vancouver is brightening the moods of his riders by hosting his own on-bus trivia game, and giving out chocolate prizes for correct answers. (I’d goo to Vancouver to ride his bus!)

    There is a bus drive in Paris who sings all the time and encourages the passengers to sing along. I used to love that bus.

    Sadly, since we moved, we are no longer on the route.

  44. 44 selena in Canada
    September 30, 2008 at 16:24


    Good points about JWs blog, Still, we have to keep in mind that media personalities carry a lot of weight with some readers.

  45. September 30, 2008 at 16:34

    Hi gang ! :-)…. 1stly let me say THANK YOU VERY MUCH to Precious Dan in the US for your xtraordinarily kind good Eid Al Fitr wishes… I am really impressed… You’re setting a moral example to others… According to the type of argument you’re standing for, I should never wish any Christian on this planet a Merry Christmas or a Happy Easter… Just kindly, take a look at the so many horrific crimes, atrocities, and evil actions committed by the successive governments in the West and the US against innocent citizens in Arab and Muslim countries since the dark period of Western colonialism and till the US-led invasion of my Iraq in 2003… Do I need to get into details here ?! Like the enthusiastic, limitedless, and unconditioned political, financial, and military support the oppressive and evil Saddami regime had got from the West and the US since it gained power in 1968 and till its invasion of Kuwait in1990, including supplying him by unconventional weapons, which he used in his 8-years long war against Iran and also against his own people in the South and in Kurdistan… Remember Al Anfal massacre ?! In which the Saddami regime used unconventional weapons made in the US and Europe inorder to kill 5000 innocent Kurdish civilians in 1987… Both the US and Europe stood shamelessly silent and did absolutely nothing about that horrific genocide… Oh I forgot, they just did not want to hurt the feelings of their obedient servant in the region at that time, Saddam ! With my love… Yours forever, Lubna in Baghdad…

  46. 46 Count Iblis
    September 30, 2008 at 16:37


    Yes, after any terror attack we can point out finger to the terrorists and say that he is responsible.

    The question is then if this is a reasonable way to look at some given situation. In case of the bomb attack in Oklahoma, it is justified to take this view. Not because we can point our finger to McVeigh, but because we know that a scenario in which buildings are not bombed in the US is a reasonable scenario.

    In Iraq, success depended on people not taking up arms, even after huge fractions of the population lost their jobs and were not eligible for state benefits. This would have led to unrest in any country, let alone one in which a foreign power is now in charge.

    So, you should have expected complete breakdown of law and order and then terrorists can operate quite freely. In that situation, being able to point your finger to the particular terrorists repsonsible for any particular attack is not really that relevant.

    That is then exactly like the Zoo keeper who released all the lions who could afterwards identify exactly what lion ate what victim.

  47. 47 Alexis Massey-Ryan
    September 30, 2008 at 16:52

    To all the previous comments concerning religion and terrorism:

    ALL religions would rather everyone else on the earth believed the same as they or be dead, thats part of the insanity of religion. The reason you don’t hear more from those who wouldn’t actually kill for their religion condeming the ones who do is because the former quietly condone the latter until the last non-believer is dead.

    To the bus driver stories, Rock On Love and Peace! Its far better to worry about important things like singing (No joke at all, if you can sing then everythings ok) than horrible ********* going about killing as humans for their own ends.

  48. 48 steve
    September 30, 2008 at 16:55

    @ Alexis

    I don’t believe that. Do you really think Bhuddist monks would want everyone to believe they way they do or that the others be dead?

    Even for Jews, they absolutely don’t care what anyone else. Jews don’t seek out converts, in fact, converting to Judaism is a very, very difficult and long process, to make sure that people really lwant to do it.

    I think religions thave have expanded are more likely to be that how you describe.

  49. 49 Alexis Massey-Ryan
    September 30, 2008 at 17:04

    Har har you fell for it! Budhism is a philosophy that follows the path of Buddha supposedly a real man not from any heavens or the suchlike. Ergo no gods and no worship so therefore not a religion 🙂

    As for judaism I believe their term for anyone not a jew is actually derogatory in their language 🙂

  50. 50 steve
    September 30, 2008 at 17:08

    @ Alexis

    The word you’re referring to, “goyim” means “nations” in Hebrew.

    Also, even if it were a derogatory word, that’s not the same as wishing nonjews being dead, like you had claimed.

  51. 51 Alexis Massey-Ryan
    September 30, 2008 at 17:08

    Sorry that was juvenile…

  52. 52 Alexis Massey-Ryan
    September 30, 2008 at 17:15

    What people think in the privacy of their minds is their business though, its when they become deeds or ignorance that they become important. The quote about not doing anything being as bad as doing an evil deed still stands, such as not condeming people who murder in the name of religion.

    I mean a few important people have said it, once or twice, and thats it.

    Every day somone kills four or five or thirty people with explosives strapped to his chest or a kalishnakov or words to their ‘flock’ (See how religions don’t even shy away from sheep references).

    Every day PEOPLE die because we don’t do enough to stop these MURDERERS (Seriously where is bold type), and how much do politicians, religious and social representatives deplore these actions each day… NOT AT ALL. EVERY DAY peace protesters take leave from work and life to show how much they want it and EVERY DAY they are ignored, seriously if everyone cared (Including jews) then they’d be there too representing their group.

  53. 53 Roberto
    September 30, 2008 at 17:19

    RE “”I merely putting facts on the table””

    ——— You have no facts, but instead shifting sands.

    The true facts are obvious because of their large nature. The Iraqi sectarian violence and anarchist insurgents are an extension of the Iran/Iraq war and 1400 yrs of Islamic fratricide rekindled by the failure of US forces to secure the peace after a successfully taking over the country.

    No political gains in accepting any blame, so the parties involved struggle daily with insider suicide bombings and executions until such time a resolution is reached, not a done deal.

  54. 54 jamily5
    September 30, 2008 at 17:21


    “I wonder what the lady would say now?”
    if she follows normal human behavior, she would say:
    “Well, what’s good for the goose, is good for the gander.”
    Or, whatever similar expression that is known in Pakistan.
    Justification is the root of insensitivity.

  55. 55 Bryan
    September 30, 2008 at 17:26

    Count Iblis September 30, 2008 at 3:32 pm

    This is why the US is 100% responsible for all the terror attacks in Iraq.

    So you are comparing the terrorists in Iraq, who strap bombs to mentally handicapped women and blow them up in a market, to the actions of guerrilla fighters resisting an occupation. I suppose you have the French Resistance in mind. Did it occur to you that if these noble Iraqi guerrillas were really involved in heroic resistance they would not be butchering their own people in the tens of thousands?
    The moral equivalence of the left is something to behold.

  56. 56 Alexis Massey-Ryan
    September 30, 2008 at 17:28

    ANYWAY! Before this goes from ‘Talking Points’ to ‘Does religion have a place in modern society’…

    What about the Somali fishermen that turn to piracy, the rising rates since the 90’s and the situation that Warlords are now giving intel to to these pirates to hit specific targets such as this Ukrainian freighter.

    Also, with rising rates of piracy should crews be allowed more and heavier calibre weapons or should there be more money diverted to navies so that they can increace their patrols?

  57. September 30, 2008 at 17:31

    But still my Precious Dan, I do believe firmly that every human being should be held accountable for only his/her own actions, not for the actions of others, and that’s why I’ll surely offer my very sincere ”MERRY CHRISTMAS” greetings on this blog to all practicing Christian WHYSers when Christmas comes Inshallah… Also my Precious Steve did not wish me a Happy Eid, but still, here I am wishing you Steve and all Jewish WHYSers a very special Happy New Jewish Year…
    Thanks a million my Precious Kelsie in the US for your xtraordinarily kind good Eid wishes… And also my Precious Jamily, it’s always so lovely to hear from you… Oh, how to celebrate Eid Al Fitr ?! Well, 1stly close to the end of Holy Ramadan, charity must be paid to the poor (it’s named Zakat Al Fitra)… The house must be cleaned up thoroughly, and all family members should take part… New clothes should be bought for all family members… Delicious sweets and juices must be made… During the Eid holiday, visiting the houses of your loved ones (whether relatives or close friends) is highly recommended, both religiously and socially… Also if there were someone who’s angry with you, then the Eid holiday is your ultimate chance to apologise and make it up to him/her… The Eid prayers take place at mosques early in the morning of the 1st Eid day… Let us rejoice indeed… This is the day of Eid… With my love… Yours forever, Lubna in Baghdad…

  58. 59 Dennis@OCC
    September 30, 2008 at 17:36

    At Bob in Queensland:
    Nice TALKING POINTS set up…..
    @ Lubna:
    I Hope you had a nice holidays!
    I wish that there was a story link
    to the story.


  59. 60 Dennis@OCC
    September 30, 2008 at 17:44

    [I don’t know that my previous comments went thru or not]


    I think that at this rate, in no time down, the banking system–will be


  60. 61 Alexis Massey-Ryan
    September 30, 2008 at 17:46

    Tote: To carry or to bear

    Tout: To buy tickets and then solicit customers to sell tickets to at an inflated price

    :D, have fun!

  61. 62 Dennis@OCC
    September 30, 2008 at 17:46

    Happy EID [holidays] to all of our dear friends, Lubna, Shirley [Pink] and the rest [sorry i can not remember them all at the time of recording]….


  62. 63 Bryan
    September 30, 2008 at 17:51

    selena in Canada September 30, 2008 at 3:56 pm,

    Well, I breathe a sigh of relief!

    Bob in Queensland September 30, 2008 at 3:46 pm

    selena in Canada September 30, 2008 at 3:53 pm

    So in other words, born again Christians, whose only “crime” is to want everyone to share their happiness in Christianity are worse than radical Muslims who want to convert everyone to Islam at the point of a sword and kill those who renounce Islam?

    You guys have must have gone through some amazing contortions to come up with a conclusion like that.

    Bob in Queensland September 30, 2008 at 4:06 pm

    Have a look at Webb’s regular journalism and you will find that he is as biased as he is on the blog, just a bit more subtle about it. The man is North America Editor for goodness sake.

    Lubna September 30, 2008 at 4:34 pm,

    Remember Al Anfal massacre ?! In which the Saddami regime used unconventional weapons made in the US and Europe inorder to kill 5000 innocent Kurdish civilians in 1987

    You make some valid points (don’t faint) but don’t forget that political allegiances change over time and today’s friend is often yesterday’s enemy and vice versa. I don’t think the US supplied Saddam with any unconventional weapons. Germany supplied him with deadly chemicals and other weapons, to its eternal shame.

  63. 64 selena in Canada
    September 30, 2008 at 18:08


    LOL why are you so hung up on suicide bombers? The invasion of Iraq was the work of a born again Christian President, for goodness sake.

    Their crime is not to share the “happiness” of Christianity. Their crime is that they believe Christians are the only worthy persons on earth and they should help (persuade… sometimes by force) you to convert. You can become worthy if you convert, of course.

  64. 65 selena in Canada
    September 30, 2008 at 18:11

    This article appeared in the September 27 edition of the Wall Street Journal.


  65. 66 Bryan
    September 30, 2008 at 19:02

    selena in Canada September 30, 2008 at 6:08 pm

    Count Iblis was the one who brought up the suicide bombers, claiming that it is 100% the fault of the coalition that they exist. You and Bob are saying you think born again Christians want to dominate the world more than the Muslims. This is ridiculous.

    While we are having this brief exchange of opinions, somewhere on this planet there will be more innocents brutally murdered by the followers of the Religion of Peace. They will be murdered because they refuse to bow to Islam, because they follow the “wrong” religion, because they are homosexuals or adulterers or because they want to marry someone their family does not approve of. They will be beheaded, stabbed to death and blown up in public places.

    Born again Christians are not “forcing” anyone to convert to Christianity. Give Islam time and it will prove to be the greatest evil this world has ever known. Go to The Religion of Peace website to get the latest toll of people butchered and maimed for life by Muslims in the last 24 hours alone for the reasons I’ve outlined above.

    Please direct me to a similar website describing the murders by born again Christians of those who don’t follow their brand of Christianity. You can’t because such a site does not exist.

    Why do you insist on not recognising these facts?

  66. 67 roebert
    September 30, 2008 at 19:02

    The Webb article can only be considered biased if all rational Americans are not horrified by Sarah Palin. Until that is proven, one way or another, we’ll have to accept that Webb speaks for ‘rational’ America.

    Dennis: forgive me for being personal; in some way that I haven’t quite figured out yet, you certainly appear to me to be the most mature contributor to this blog. Reading your posts ALWAYS makes me feel better. I wish you were running for president.

    Islam and Muslims: One of the most profound religious discussions I have had in my life was with an Indian Muslim who seemed to me to epitomize everything that can be best about religion.

    Buddhism: this IS my subject. Alexis: the fact that the Buddha did not claim to be a divine being does not make Buddhism less of a religion than other religions. Buddhists, while they don’t recognize the existence of a personal deity, definitely do recognize the primacy of Mind as the uncaused first cause. In Buddhism, however, the responsibility for what we do with that Mind-Energy rests completely with us. We can use it to become enlightened (not a good translation for bodhi), or to remain ignorant and suffering. And Buddhists definitely hold that life continues after physical death.

  67. 68 Bryan
    September 30, 2008 at 19:23

    roebert September 30, 2008 at 7:02 pm

    Unless I’m missing irony on your part here, I’ll “accept that Webb speaks for ‘rational’ America” when hell freezes over. I don’t know if you have looked at the post of his I linked to at 2:55 pm. He deliberately avoids accessing a Republican site for a viewpoint of Sarah Palin, precisely because he knows he will find favourable opinions of her there by quite rational people. Webb is a propagandist. Rather than bringing us the news, he brings us his uniformed, acerbic bias.

  68. 69 Nofal Elias
    September 30, 2008 at 19:49

    The banking system will not collaps, just words used again to scare the whole world just like when they scared the whole world of Sadam’s WMD.
    Guys, only banks with their prime investment in the housing/mortgage market are effected, the rest are effected but not to callaps position.
    House prices have gone up so much it was virtually impossible for anybody to be able to afford to buy one, with mortgage lenders givining 6 times your annual salary if not more. One instance where somebody who just left prison was given £250k mortgage by filling just self certified declartion.
    I always said eventually the housing bubble will burst, just like the internet in the late 90s.
    Many internet companies went bust in late 90s and nobody bailed them out, and allot of investores lost allot of money. How can they value lastminute.com at £470M in 1998, well that was beyound believe.
    Many people on the line made the millions out of all this, and guess what the tax payers will bail them out, how rediculs is that.

  69. 70 roebert
    September 30, 2008 at 19:50

    Bryan: Yep, it’s irony. Sorry, can’t help myself. But, as Bob has pointed out, Webb’s report isn’t the view of Palin you’ll be hearing on the official beeb news; it’s more in the line of editorial comment, which is par for the journalists’ course. But I do understand how irksome some editorial mutterings can be.

  70. 71 Dan
    September 30, 2008 at 21:18

    Sadly I have spent time in the Middle East and found that Islam keeps Muslims ignrant and in poverty. It is also reasonally brutal and does not allow for independent thought or any updating of Islam to meet with modern times. In an increasingly interconnected world Islam itself is the cause of ts impending implosion where only radicals will be left standing amking them easier targets to kill.
    In America Mslims assimilate as in no other country. Isam’s hope may lie here but it is dead in the Arab states.

  71. 72 Alec Paterson
    September 30, 2008 at 22:57

    It is the violent injunctions of the Quran and the violent precedents set by Muhammad and with that the tone for the Islamic view of politics and of world history. Islamic scholarship divides the world into two spheres of influence, the House of Islam (dar al-Islam) and the House of War (dar al-harb). Islam means submission, and so the House of Islam includes those nations that have submitted to Islamic rule, which is to say those nations ruled by Sharia law. The rest of the world, which has not accepted Sharia law and so is not in a state of submission, exists in a state of rebellion or war with the will of Allah. It is incumbent on dar al-Islam to make war upon dar al-harb until such time that all nations submit to the will of Allah and accept Sharia law. Islam’s message to the non-Muslim world is the same now as it was in the time of Muhammad and throughout history: submit or be conquered. The only times since Muhammad when dar al-Islam was not actively at war with dar al-harb were when the Muslim world was too weak or divided to make war effectively. There may be moderate Muslims, but no moderate Islam.
    With the collapse of Soviet hegemony over much of the Muslim world, coupled with the burgeoning wealth of the Muslim oil-producing countries, the Muslim world increasingly possesses the freedom and means to support jihad around the globe. In short, the reason that Muslims are once again waging war against the non-Muslim world is because they can.

    Muhammad Taqi Partovi Samzevari, in his “Future of the Islamic Movement” (1986), sums up the Islamic worldview.

    “Our own Prophet … was a general, a statesman, an administrator, an economist, a jurist and a first-class manager all in one. … In the Qur’an’s historic vision Allah’s support and the revolutionary struggle of the people must come together, so that Satanic rulers are brought down and put to death. A people that is not prepared to kill and to die in order to create a just society cannot expect any support from Allah. The Almighty has promised us that the day will come when the whole of mankind will live united under the banner of Islam, when the sign of the Crescent, the symbol of Muhammad, will be supreme everywhere. … But that day must be hastened through our Jihad, through our readiness to offer our lives and to shed the unclean blood of those who do not see the light brought from the Heavens by Muhammad in his mi’raj {“nocturnal voyages to the ‘court’ of Allah”}. … It is Allah who puts the gun in our hand. But we cannot expect Him to pull the trigger as well simply because we are faint-hearted.”
    Religion of Peace?

  72. 73 Bryan
    October 1, 2008 at 05:33

    roebert September 30, 2008 at 7:50 pm

    Bryan: Yep, it’s irony. Sorry, can’t help myself. But, as Bob has pointed out, Webb’s report isn’t the view of Palin you’ll be hearing on the official beeb news;

    You want the official BBC news version of anti-Palin bias? Try Newsnight:


    Yes, the official BBC is capable of providing balanced, informed coverage on the US elections. Unfortunately, we have yet to see it.

  73. 74 John in Germany
    October 1, 2008 at 08:55

    Has anyone thought about the involvement of lobbyist in the finance crises that is gripping the world?. To date i have read, seen, or heard anything about thier involvement,and wonder if they have a clean vest?.The European parliament accredits some, they are chosen using strict criteria, It appears that they have a lot of influence. So i wonder if they have braked the control mechanism for the Finance world. Is feasible or?.

    Congress has done the right thing, stopped the right, feeding the right, and jerked the system into thinking about the other American People. Good job that the elections take place soon, otherwise they would not have listened to their constituents.

    A friend of mine said ” Take it easy, dont worry, but make shure YOU have the dog, and the gun, Hes a hunter.

    John in Germany.

  74. 75 John in Germany
    October 1, 2008 at 09:02

    Re Palin.
    Wasnt she brought in to balance the age difference, and to place someone a bit younger against Obama. Two very good candidates for the President, but one is a bit older. And youth counts today, with a Family a bit more.

    May the best man win.

    John in Germany

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