‘This’ of course refers to the global financial crisis that’s shifted up another gear this week.. Who do you want to take a lead? Politicians? Bankers? Regulators? International organisations? Or maybe you’re happy to trust the market to sort out the problems it’s created.
And who in the future should have the power to respond to troubles in our financial system?
I watched the EU trade commissioner Peter Mandelson on tele last night making the case for all major economic powers to come together to agree on some shared principles on how the system works. Would you support that?
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BBC World Have Your Say 
In today’s business world, trust is at a premium. As with other situations, the people who create the mess don’t usually clean it up. The dirty job of cleaning up is left for other people to take care of. Politicians,Regulators, Bankers, etc all have important but different roles to play in cleaning this is up. There is no point in making regulations financial institutions will tip toe around and it does not also make sense when there are no regulations preventing financial institutions from biting more than they can chew. Every one of them has a role to play in bringing this free fall to an end.
Because of the global aspect of the issue, a global response will be required in achieving a workable, meaningful solution. As large and economically powerful as the United States may be, it is still only one (albeit a very large) component in the world’s financial infrastructure. This situation has become so grave and has been exacerbated to such a high degree, the United States will likely need to sit down and work with other economic players to find a lasting solution.
No one group can sort this out. Each group must accept that to gain in some areas that they’ll need to compromise on others. Only when there is trust and honest dialogues between all parties involved will this mess be sorted out.
As for the future, only openess between banks and regulators will prevent situations like this developing. A lot of the recent trouble has been that the bad debt grew off the balance sheet inside funnily named devices. Nobody was able to step back and really see what was going on.
This is going to take a team. Like any finely tuned sports team. You need team from some of our greatest economical, diplomatic, financial (yes that is different then economics,) legal, and political minds. We have the greatest learning institution teaching the greatest minds in the world here in our country. We need to call on them to educate our elected officials.
One thing is true, we need to increase jobs and their hourly value if we are to ever emerge from this. That means no more can a person work the first 20 hours of a 40 hour work week to just pay for things they have already bought.
I agree with Kelsie, it became a global problem and a global response is needed.
But I don´t like the idea that the people responsible for this mess are not held accountable for their actions, but others would suffer the consequences. This is not a surpise, it is their “modus operandi” as human beigns: leave others bystanders to clean the mess.
Finally, I don´t support the idea of leaving the mess to the market to sort it out. The “free/unregulated” market has proved to be a very bad master. This is a reality check that hopefully will have lasting consequences. Rampant consumerism will be a thing of the past.
I think people need to understand that this cannot just “work out”. The economy, especially in the US, was based upon irrationality due to lots of easy credit. People were only able to buy as much as they did because of the credit. If we artificially allow more credit, one of these days it’s still going to come due, so we’re only delaying the unavoidable, and this basically printing money will devalue the money you have, so the irresponsibility of many will also lessen the value of the savings of the responsible people (unless they switch to Gold)..
The question is, do we allow the massive change now, or do we delay it and make our children and grandchildren pay the price for our wish to live beyond our means?
Who do I trust to sort this out? Nobody. We’re doomed–or at least the consumer life style is. It was the experts and politicians who got us to this point in the first place–why should we assume they have a cure now?
@Luz Ma:
I agree: the issues and figures that precipitated and exacerbated this situation should be held to account. I don’t think this precise moment is the time for that, though. In one of his rare moments of rhetorical maturity, David Cameron, the Conservative leader in the U.K., rightly stated that the “eyes of the world” are on the U.S. Congress right now during this “time of anxiety.” Let’s pull together and weather the worst of the storm before casting blame (which needs to be done, make no mistake).
@Bob:
Time and Bloomberg would seem to agree.
I work as a volunteer fundraiser for an AIDS project in Cameroon. I have no idea who can “sort this out” but please….no more whinging from share dealers and investment bankers broadcast to Africa via the World Service.
It is an absolute insult and in the “special” I heard the BBC seemed to be falling over themselves to make excuses for the vast sums they had earnt and the mess they had made.
@Steve
I am sure people will start living according to their income. There is no option. It is the only think that bring me confort when seeing the whole situation. I dislike the rampant and irresponsible consumerism that have prevailed in this materialistic world for years.
@Kelsie
I know… now the situation is in “panic mode”. But I really hope that those responsible are held accountable.
I don’t agree with letting people do anything. The market was free, it went dum, it has to get back to normal by itself; things will regulate freely. People will lose money, so what ? how much have they earned before without telling anyone ? What really concerns me is that thousands of people lost their jobs in banks bankruptcy because their CEOs chose the wrong tactics; when you gamble you have to take risks, sometimes you are a winner, sometimes you are a loser. For years and years (and despite the 9/11 tragedy), nobody has complained about the tremendous gains of the stock market. Now that everything is collapsed, taxpayers should pay ? no, they didn’t gamble. I would like to give a parallel : you go to the casino, you win money, everybody is ready to do the same thing. And suddenly, you lose all your money, are you going to ask for help ? is anyone going to help you ? Our modern world is based on wrong values : money easily won. Shareholders have defeated thousands of families because they wanted factories to delocate to cheap labour countries; loans, investments have been massive but in the hope of making money quickly. Now there is sand in the spiral of events, it will get out as it came in…
what we are seeing in nepal that government want to control market and businessman want to set market free.they dont think aboutr public and only think of their profits.so what i think that market should be free but government should have some kind of check on them so that they can’t fool public for their benifit.
President George Bush spoke a few minutes ago.
A comment from MarketWatch:
@ Luz Ma
But the thing is the irresponsible spending was what created the economy which created jobs, so there will be a lot more unemployment, industry will close down if people can’t get car loans, the autoindustry will fail unless they can make cars that are incredibly inexpensive. Right now there’s a squeeze on car loan financing. People won’t be able to buy new cars. If people don’t buy consumer goods, then the boom in China will end, there will be mass unemployment there.
So I’m not sure really, there’s going to be massive change, and lots of people’s lives will be seriously impacted. Not talking about just switchingi from a 52″ HDTV to a 13″ CRT, but some people will simply not be able to afford any kind of housing and the states wont have the tax revenues to do much social services. So the irrationality kind of kept the system afloat, but one day was going to sink.
@ourmanwhere
Indeed it is a shame what the world have become. A place where there are people living in extreme poverty, barely living and fighting horrendous diseases, while others complain because their scheme to make easy money and live beyond their means have failed.
My best wishes for you and your work in Cameroon.
@Steve
I know, it is the reality check. It is the hangover after the wild party. It is the consequence of not being responsible. I would like to be positive, but in my opinion it will not be better unless we rethink our way of life.
We are being encouraged to come together to solve a “financial crisis.” But we have already come together, as the many minds of the collective “market.” Gov’t interventions to contravene normal market conditions, -such as bad risks do not get loans-,have created this problem. Further intervention to stave of the reality of our collective mistrust of current lending practices will have the same effect.
I trust many informed, self interested, decisions more than any plan of a few self inflated, presumptive altruists.
@Crisis,
I just just had a little tete about the market, our customers as I am beyond frustrated with them, and the solevency of the company. We’re in good shape and quite solvent. Yes, it’s going to be a rough ride this year, but we have what we need to get through it. Right now everyone is a state of panic and needs to take a deep breath, say “serentity now”, and get on with it.
@Julie:
Right on. The Dow opened a few minutes ago with a brief rise; hopefully this will stave off at least some of the uneasiness from yesterday and after Mr Bush’s somewhat disconcerting speech this morning…
RE “”Who do you want to take a lead?””
—————————————————————————————————–
——- This presupposes that there are valid leaders in the wing able to command global respect.
I’ve talked about the lack of global statesmanship in all the various worldwide political entities. The global lot seems to be short sighted, self serving, and bought out by corporate and other motley assortment of power brokers.
In the US there is no shortage of money in spite of the panic. What there is a shortage of is trust between the banks who are unwilling to lend each other money and lack of trust in the way wall street, corporate America conducts it’s business.
As long as theft is legalized and white collar crimes are considered soft crimes, the crisis may get patched but will lurch back into prominence as soon as these crooks run out of folks to rob easily.
If these people cannot trust each other, why should the American tax payer trust them without a major overhaul to insure the taxpayer stake? Like any good con artists, they sprang their scam on the eve of presidential elections, trying to stampede taxpayers into forking out money before a new administration can potentially throw the book at them.
Keep up with the Jones’es. thats the name of the game. In the films, on TV and radio, in most Daily Papers people are confronted with those that have everything, and a bit more. It starts with the Babies pram, through named sports gear, on to fuel swalowing cars much to big for peoples needs. Pictures of the Rich and beutifull, the target has been re-set in this global age. It is not enough to provide food, health services, and a roof over our heads. It must be bigger, better, more expensive, and so on.
Credit is being thrown at everyone these days, Want to go to the Bahamas, dont have the cash, do not worry you can go on credit. And What about next Year????.
The tv is full of soaps, with clever men, and women showing crying debtors how to pay back there debts, and lift up there heads. How about the Greedy speculators, Do they feel bad about offering non qualified people 100% mortgages???No Chance, they have got the provision in there pockets, and if it goes pear shaped, the tax payer will put everything right, and come on even supply the Golden Parachutes. The only tears they will shed, are crokodile ones.
A world steering commitee of non political finance professors, with no veto rights.
Reporting to the finance ministers of all countries, who also have no veto rights.
No more trading/gambling in commopdities, yes i’am seriouse. The money earnt by the greedies must come from somewhere, and its not out of their pockets.
Dont like it? Ok, but who else can one trust?.
John in Germany
I trust the ïnvisible hand” of the market. Even as we speak, the market is picking the winners and losers and working back toward equilibrium. It is the most efficient system imaginable. Any tinkering with it will only delay (and amplify) the pain. It is well to remember that this crisis is the child of the Fed’s efforts to minimize the pain of the “Dot Com Busi”.
I can’t say I trust anyone to sort this out. There is no quick fix. It is going to take alot of hard work and determination. I am not sure that politicians are the best people to be making the decisions but since we are democratic I hope they take into account the little people who will be hurt most by this and set aside their ulterior motives of padding their own pockets first.
It is important that people not go into panic mode because that will only make things worse. However, people do need to start doing what they can to ensure that they have as many personal resources as possible. Social service programs will more than likely be the first to go including elder care, and some others in an effort for the government to save money. We do need some social service programs but people need to accept responsibility for their own as well during this time. If we do not stop super spending a little, we will never regain any sort of control of the mess. Do spend money for food, clothing, and etc, but don’t spend 2 thousand on a set of car rims or something like that.
Trust? Oh that’s a tall order, coming from the US government run by squabbling children who cry about their feelings being hurt and want to bail out wall street fat cats. I may be young, but I will not watch my saving disappear completely. My patience is running out, DC very little time left before I pull my 401K from the market. Tick-tock! See Kelsie’s posted links above.
Simple answer: no one. The problems in the US and world economy have been endemic for some time. The American economy has massively reduced its manufacturing potential to focus on “financial services”, some of which are clearly worthless instruments that are sold by hype. For example, owning the debts of people who do not have the means to repay them is valueless, yet these “assets” represented billions of dollars on investment bank balance sheets until people realized this.
If Americans want to continue enjoying a high standard of living then we had better start changing what we do now. We need vast numbers of new scientists, managers, health care professionals and technologists. We have to incentivise high technology and business careers from grade 1 on. For example, how about automatic university scholarships in preferred subjects (ie: science, technology, medcine, industry) for children who excel at these subjects as measured in nationally standardized tests. What about adding the possibility of expelling disruptive students from the entire public education system?
We need to work on renewable energy, nanotechnology and new ways to prevent family breakdowns and the ensuing crime that results. There are many other things; infrastructure, trade, immigration, government reform (term limits for Congress) etcetera.
To do this we are going to all have to sacrifice something. Wealthy companies and people paying more taxes on part of their income. Discretionary spending programs being much more tightly controlled and targeted than before. Tougher trade policies (even if we have to leave the WTO) to stop countries that either block our exports or keep their currencies at an artificially low level to distort trade patterns.
We need to realize that programs like Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid are not sustainable in their present forms and must be replaced or drastically reformed.
There are a lot of other things that we could do to turn America around but I fear that we will fall far short. The two major parties are like children caught doing something wrong by their teacher – they each point the finger at each other to try and get the teacher (or the electorate, in this case), to punish the other group. Such behavior is stupid, pointless and wrong.
Both parties, the banks and the electorate share differing levels of responsibility for the crisis so let’s stop pointing fingers and start to figure out what we can go – both within and outside of government, to solve these problems as quickly as possible and reform the way government operates; the way the banks operate and define the future priorities of the nation to stop such unnecessary pain from happening again.
I have listened to an Allen Little interview with an American woman concerning her choices in a home purchase. In this interview she is portrayed as a “victim” for her “own” decisions. She claims “unchallenged” that she purchased an “affordable” home. It was the mortgage that has caused her troubles again “unchallenged.” Her choice of an ARM instead of a fixed rate mortgage is often made because the monthly payment is not affordable without it. We don’t know if that is the case here as she was never asked that.
I was fortunate even to have a similar opportunity a few years ago on what for me would have been a dream home. However, since that purchase would have required me to use the same type of ARM mortgage the “victim” you interviewed actually choice to take, I declined that opportunity. Now I am told that in order to save myself from the decisions of irresponsible people. As my government decides how best to reach into my back pocket and rip from me money that I earned to bail out this irresponsible. I am asked to see as a “victim” at least one of the very people that caused the problem by this very Irresponsible report from Mr Little.
@ Michael
I agree. That’s the result of the “i want it all” attitude.
@ Steve and Michael
While I generally agree that many people were not thinking about how on earth they would ever pay back that loan, they are not the only ones to blame. I can want as much as I want, but if nobody is going to give it to me then I won’t get it. It’s too easy to blame it only on the simple people who wanted a new house and thought something along the lines “three bedrooms are good, four bedrooms are better”. If the financial institutions had stayed firm on responsible policies, i.e. giving mortgages only to people who look likely to be able to pay them back and not come up with all this refinancing BS which drove even solid people into overspending, then this collapse wouldn’t have happened.
When you get it hammered into your brain that you “can have it all, no money down, no payments for the first 2 years” 24/7, then you must not be surprised about the outcome. Nobody was telling the American people to spend their money responsibly, even Bush wanted them to take the government check this spring and go spending! The American System in general is harvesting the fruits now that it had been growing for a long time…
Who would I trust to sort this out?
Not the market, it was the globalized market after all that brought us into this mess in the first place. I would like to see someone like Joseph Stieglitz on top of a commite that would come up with new rules and regulations, which put strong common sense and responsibility on top priority. That together with a smart government (wherever that is supposed to come from) might be able to provide a long term solution.
I fell like letting it take care of itself and let everybody suffer for a little while. This whole problem stems from greed and cutting corners and now those that got involved can pay the price and maybe lose some money, stocks, shares or a home. If nothing negative happens then people just don’t learn. The U.S. and George Bush have been saying for over a year that we don’t need to worry, we are not going into a recession, blah, blah, blah. Could we have provented this if we put a bandaid on it last year? Probably not, but where’s the foresight. All these “smart” and “educated” bankers and economists couldn’t see what was happening and now I should trust them again. Nope. I don’t trust any of them. The market was inflated, nobody cared. Now you pay.
Who will “fix” this, the American people. We need to change our mentalities.
@ steve
A couple years ago my buddies couldn’t understand why I bought a 4-bangger Ford Ranger, when I could have bought a V-8 F-150, or why I decided to buy a Yamaha TW-200 dual sport when I could have bought a 700cc Ninja or Harley. I bought this nice 32 inch CRT T.V., a few years ago, and my buddies were like “Why didn’t you get a Best Buy credit card and get a 52 inch HD?”. Yup….the average American.
@ Luz
How is it in Mexico? Is our mess affecting Mexicans day to day life at all?
-Anthony, LA, CA
@ Michael
On one of the major news networks last week, I heard the term “foreclosure victims”. That incensed me, since as you pointed out, foreclosures are all too often caused by irresponsible lending. If you borrowed more money than you could pay back, you are not a victim.
I have no doubt that this bailout will eventually pass. Remember, the USA is a plutocracy, and the wealthy WILL eventually get what they want.
I am not sure who to “trust”, but I can tell you when somebody got it right. When the average person stops getting 15 credit card offers per week. When you can’t take a car home the same day you walk in to the showroom. when there are not liquor stores next to the payday loan shops. When payday loans are a thing of the past. When you have to have 10% down and 10% in a bank account to get a house. When the average American can save that kind of money. When the first 20 hours of the average Americans week isn’t spent paying for services and merchandise on every street corner. When 3/4 of the products on the store shelves are fully made in America.
Signs we are strong on the right track will be when we don’t need insurance to pay for a doctor visit, but can afford to pay out of pocket. When we can afford to pay for a fender bender out of pocket. When illegal immigrants make up a smaller percentage of the US population then the unemployed. When more people are afraid of loosing their job then they are a Muslim extremist. When every child that graduates high school has passed a course demonstrating they understand how a family budget works. Then we will know that the economical fixes are cures and not remedies.
Find the person who proposes ideas to achieve these ends and trust that person.
What I don’t understand, is that they try to spin everything in Washington to sound better, so why are they doing it now and keep calling it a “bail out”. They should call it an investment, which is what it is, and maybe the American people would be behind it more, people would “feel better”, the Dow would rise, and so on and so forth….
-Anthony, LA, CA
@ Anthony
The problem with calling it an investment is that it is unlikely we would ever break even on it, much less turn a profit. These are bad debts — loans that people have already defaulted on. The banking industry is bleeding money because of them, and few if any private investors seem to want to touch them, so why should the taxpayers have to assume the risk? They’re called “toxic assets” for a reason.
@ Roy
FDR did it. And if the tax payer won’t, who will??? And if we don’t, and the stock market crashes, then where will we be??? Do you want to have to fight for food, water, and jobs just to teach those “wall street fat cats” a lesson?
-Anthony, LA, CA
i trust sarah palin for the prez job and bush for her vp
together they will sort the usa economic situation.
look for another war and soon the people will forget the economy.
haider
The fact that politicians become wealthier in office suggests they are down stream from power. They perhaps may be trusted to have appropriate motives; but no measure of honorable motivation will allow them to change an economy that is based upon fallacious concepts. Wealth arrives in only four ways: It falls from the sky, it grows in the soil, it is mined, or it grows when human efforts increase the value of thought, or of one of the former resources. Many common human activities, exotic dancing, preaching, caring for the sick, banking, scientific research, education, marketing, practice of law, mud-wrestling, and politicking to name a few, produce no wealth whatsoever. They are merely necessary costs borne by society in its urge to produce more wealth. So far in the US, the only sources of wealth still well-functioning are the first two. It still rains here and farmers still grow crops. We’ve mostly consumed our “diggable” resources, and are rapidly shipping the remainder of that last greatest source of wealth, manufacturing, off shore. The economic bail-out it is not what it purports itself to be. It will in no way help the economy, it will merely shift debt (the absence of wealth) from one group of Americans to another group of Americans. The nation stays just as poor. No wealth magically appears. Those with actual power will perceive themselves as continuing to be successful, and so will continue with but slight detour, their behaviors which led to this calamity in the first place.
g
Hi Dwight From Cleveland
September 30, 2008 at 4:01 pm
So many are facing heart-searching problems in US. It is not only the economy, but social values which are at stake. The eighties and nineties promised peace, stability and prosperity in the world, but one tragedy after another in the third millennium have dispelled that notion. Why the sudden US, Russian rivalry? Why the military build-up? All we hear these days is the Anti-Missile Shield in Czech Republic and Poland.
Does the US electorate have a say in what goes on in Washington? It seems Congress has put down its feet this time. Here we have a hard working nation which has accumulated enormous wealth and goodwill over the years. Where has the money gone and when is the hate campaign going to end!
What has a war economy to do with the current slump? Should US be a dumping ground for cheap goods?
Where does Iran come in? Can we help, because we haven’t so far. Can cheap oil relieve some of the pressure?
The problem with so so-called bail-out is that it is a band-aid while what Americans (and everyone else) need is open heart surgery.
It is not only the wealthy that is greedy. Everyone is guilty of wanting more than what was afforable.
This 700 Billion will only ensure that everyone stay in the ditch and start the whole greed cycle again when the economy strengthens. If there is no bail-out, people will fall down the ditch, really suffer, and promise themselves “never again will I get into debt to that degree” – and that lesson cannot be put into monetary terms.
Don’t trust “the markets.” Some people superstitiously believe that markets can divine the true worth of everything. But look what real estate and stock markets thought last year! They got it all wrong.
Don’t trust the bankers. They made loans they knew the borrowers couldn’t repay, and they gambled with depositors’ money. As Franklin Roosevelt said fifty-five years ago, “”Some of our bankers had shown themselves either incompetent or dishonest in the handling of people’s funds. They had used the money entrusted to them in speculations and unwise loans . . . It was the government’s job to straighten out this situation and do it as quickly as possible.”
Roosevelt’s administration ended the banking panic and reorganized, simplified, and made more fair and just our monetary system.
But the banking panic in 1929 followed a decade in which ordinary people, farmers and workers, were losing ground to the economic fat cats. Farm and housing foreclosures had been going on for years before the crash, just as in this current meltdown. Roosevelt’s administration also rebuilt the economy from the bottom up, making it possible for ordinary people to stay in their houses and to buy the goods and services that the stalled economy was ready to produce.
It’s pretty clear that the government is needed in this crisis, to establish confidence, regulate the financial industry, and help households that have been driven down by greed, predatory lending, falling wages and the imbalance of power in the markets. These households need help to get back on their feet now and they need protection from flimflam in the future.
So do we trust the government? I don’t know about the rest of you in other countries, but I absolutely do not trust the current USA government to straighten out the mess quickly, fairly, and effectively. The current administration is out of touch with real people, incompetent, and corrupt. They are also ideologically opposed to needed regulation.
Perhaps an international consortium could set limits and boundaries in which the Bush administration would be constrained to do no harm, and maybe some good.
But what we really need is to replace this failed USA administration with a fresh start.
Yes this is all from the ‘I want it all Now’ attitude, one that was created and pushed in the 60’s and the artificialy supplanted in the 90’s with extended finance options (Buy now, pay laters) and again heaved up with extended credit ratings that no company in the world could realisticaly expect to reap without causing this financial chaos.
But why worry? I mean the only people that are really worrying are those with massive stakes in banks and the suchlike, thats why they’re making such a racket, to get the rest of us worried too so we care.
Look at it this way, if everyone defaulted on their mortgages at once what would banks do. Hire an army of bailiffs? I think not. If everyone said ‘Right I want my money now in cash while you sort your house out’, then what would banks do. say no? They can’t, that’d be theft.
The moral is chill and resist government help packages to banks, there are more important things at stake the the super-riches deserved decline 😛
It needs to be done with everyone -Congress, Treasury, Federal Reserve – working together with total transparency and oversight.
That being said, passing this bill is like sand bagging against a flood.
My take on this is you really have few choices, neither are going to be liked by one side or the other.
First you can let the market go, complete and utter un-tethering from regulation and legislation. In a few weeks or months it will come to a natural end, what that end would be is, well, where the market will take you – from mass redundancies and bankruptcies to a stable yet incessantly volatile money market. Where you leave your money after that is up to you – you could make a fortune or be left with zero.
Secondly you can get all the governments who do regulate their markets together and have a set package of regulation that is globally regulated by a single body with all governments giving the exact same powers each has nationally. Laws would have to be enacted in the 24 hour period we have when needed.
Thirdly – a fluid regulation system where each country can manoeuvre regulation but that would be on a nation but not international level. Whereas we have today the US market that relies on very little to no regulation to the EU where it relies on quite a bit of regulation – both are competing platforms but subject to the same influences – and come with more volatility than is expected from one crisis to another.
One thing that is wrong with the system at present is speculation and speculators. They have way too much power to, as we have recently seen, speculate on rumours rather than facts.
Lastly – you could split the markets up into certain components – (only by example) cash, commodities, mutual funds and long-term investments. There are more but as I said, for example only, those.
Yet to the trust issue – I wouldn’t trust a right-wing “pure” capitalist government to do anything at all for the common good.
Kelsie
Why maturity? He is looking at the US financial market to stave off economic problems at home rather than taking the bull by the horns and looking to ways to exploit the US crash – man this is business – if you are in business you wait for your opponent to blink and then shoot.
If you want to make a fortune you exploit the weakness and cover your back as much as you can when the market is strong. Exploit it so oil and other certain commodities are paid for in GBPs and not dollars put the dollar toward total crash and then get the EU to accept a new, better exchange rate for the GBP. If the world markets then start to use GBP as the world currency again it will bring more stability to the market.
The Bush Administration & Secretary Paulson have fallen into a trap of their own making.They have made it clear to everyone that the financial system is doomed,that all their past bailout operations have failed, & that only a massive injection of taxpayer cash into the financial system will stop it from collapsing completely.They have admitted with their actions that LaRouche was right, that the global financial system has died,that the U.S. banking system is bankrupt.
Pouring trillions of dollars of new money into the banking system in this way is highly inflationary.We are already in a hyperinflationary state, similar to the situation of Weimar Germany in November,1923, and what Paulson proposes to do would result in an accelerating collapse of the dollar which would quicky render it worthless. In January, 1922, it took 192 German marks to equal one U.S. dollar, and by January,1923, that ratio was 17,972 per dollar.Party on duds…dividend lovers! Freedump
All Congressmen whose personal investments would be affected by the bailout bill should recuse themselves from voting on the plan, in order to avoid a conflict of interest. That alone should be enough to kill the plan.The bourgeois utopians dividend lovers war mongers capitalists SS are in conflict of interest, like Hitler’s SS.This New World Order is a joke, their have rage wars in the name of peace & imposed they way of life on others, you are either with US or against US (N.W.O) FREEDUMP….
The European Anglo-Dutch banking system is collapsing at breakneck speed. The news of the failure of the U.S. House of Representatives to pass the “cash for trash” bailout plan of Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson sent shock waves through European markets, where all money market lending is freezing up–as in the U.S.–and the ECB is desperately pumping liquidity to see what they can keep afloat. The British pound lost 3 cents to the dollar, the largest drop in 15 years.
May God bless this New World Order & its Financial Systems
They will rage wars in the name of peace…
Ex-Gatekeeper of the true lost free world
There is a god after all..there is a God…
The Irish Govt. has made the correct decision by backing the peoples money, deposits etc. with the peoples money. The US should follow suit and use the taxpayers money to protect, deposits, retirement plans etc. of US citizens, instead of giving a blank check to the banks that have gotten themselves into this mess. New banks will take the place of those that fail. I trust the people that are paying for this bailout, the taxpayers.
The European Anglo-Dutch banking system is collapsing at breakneck speed. The news of the failure of the U.S. House of Representatives to pass the “cash for trash” bailout plan of Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson sent shock waves through European markets, where all money market lending is freezing up–as in the U.S.–and the ECB is desperately pumping liquidity to see what they can keep afloat. The British pound lost 3 cents to the dollar, the largest drop in 15 years.
The Franco-Belgian Dexia bank, France’s and Belgium’s main lender to local, regional and state governments, was given an urgent 6.4 billion Euros (9.2 billion dollars) capital injection early this morning, to stop it from going belly up. Dexia is facing serious losses from FSA, its U.S.-based monoliner, which lost 20% in trading on Monday. Of the FSA’s total exposure of $17.3 billion, $7.6 billion are subprime-based unsellable mortgage-backed securities (MBS). The bailout came from the Belgian, Luxembourg and French governments. France ponied up nearly half, 3 billion Euros, including 1 billion from the French government and 2 billion from the French co-owner of the bank, the public Caisse des Depots et des Consignations (CDC).
The Irish Banking system, which has served as a City of London offshore banking center, is also on the verge of imploding, with bank shares collapsing on Monday an average of 26 percent. The Anglo-Irish Bank, the country’s third largest, led the way with a 44 percent drop, according to the Daily Telegraph. In anticipation of this implosion, the Irish government announced it will guarantee Irish Bank deposits and debts for two years. This will cover the country’s major banks, including Allied Irish Bank, Bank of Ireland, Anglo Irish Bank, Irish Life and Permanent, Irish Nationwide building society and Educational Building Society. It’s safe to assume that all of them are in trouble.
It should be noted that the 26.5 billion Euro (about $40 billion) bailout of Hypo Real Estate by the German government will not be going to that bank’s Munich headquarters, but to DEPFA, its Dublin, Ireland based subsidiary, where most of their toxic waste is housed. This is headline news in the mass circulation German daily Bildzeitung, as well as other dailies which report that the government bailout accounts for no less than 10 percent the FY 2008 budget.
Another big story today is the government of Iceland’s takeover of Glitnir bank with a 600 million Euro (about $1 billion) bailout. This is in a tiny country whose only exports are wool sweaters, but which has become what the Guardian calls a “toxic hedge fund for British and Scandinavian banks.” The Glitnir collapse follows the fact that its chief shareholder, Stodir, just filed for bankruptcy. The latter has been up to its ears in deals in London, including the take-over of retailer House of Fraser and Hamley’s owner Baugir.
It is time for Canada to Nationolized our resources …the cit the dividend lovers life line into our resources…
Lindon Larouche has predicted this financial meltdown for years (Reagan’s economist advosor). He was jailed from the cronies like Bush Sr. CIA at the time…
Who do I trust? I dunno, show me a politician in office not looking for personal gain, a responsible CEO, a long-sighted banker and maybe I’ll trust someone. In the meantime I can’t find anyone to trust with my money except for my mattress 😀
Fictitious capital, that which does not yet exist in effect, has become ubiquitous in such a way that the average citizen of western countries and beyond is now living on future funds. We now see in the financial crisis the fragility of this sort of capital, as well as the tendency under its dominance of persons to live above their means. We should push for more regulation of the credit market, but without the average worker willing to take part in that regulation, we cannot count on either government bodies or private companies to take action to truly change the delicate nature of capitalism based on debt and credit.
Nothing can save the USA from total collapse
total of USA debt $59.1 trillion,
or $516,348 per household.[4]
Plus
The War in Iraq Costs
$558,642,060,950
See the cost of war counter for your community:
http://www.nationalpriorities.org/costofwar_home
Plus
Then USA taxpayers can start paying off the unfunded pension needs of
their 100 million baby boomers about to retire
Plus
AND the huge debts run up and due soon to over seas investors
As of September 2008, the total U.S. federal debt approximately
$9.7 trillion[2], about $31,700 per capita (that is, per U.S.
resident). Of this amount, debt held by the public roughly $5.3
trillion.[3] Adding unfunded Medicaid, Social Security, Medicare, and
similar obligations, this figure rises to a total of $59.1 trillion,
or $516,348 per household.[4]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_public_debt
There is no one to trust when money is at stake…….I do not believe that Bush and his corporate base would be pushing so hard for this bailout if they did not stand to lose massive amounts of cash without it. For that reason alone, I think we should find another way, unless people like it this way. Accepting the death and failure of the capitalist state will at least bring “closure”, allowing us to move forward and beyond the greed market. Then we could work on eliminating the corporate lobby and restructuring to keep the money in the hands of the citizens rather than in the hands of a select selfish few, who occasionally grace us with their kindness……As long as there is a big tax write-off.
The US should lose its position as the financial leader after our governments catastrophic error in judgment in allowing our financial markets to go unchecked and unregulated. I do not have faith in Wall Street nor in our government’s ability to fix the problems.
Shocking reports today say that the government choose $700 Billion as an arbitrary number from thin air without any data that supports that is the amount of money needed to fix our economy. Unbelievable. I think saving my money under my bed might be safer.
Thank GOD, Bush’s days in the White House are numbered. I have been counting them down for FOUR long and hard years.
Jess
BINGO!!!!!!!!!! You have hit the nail on the head!
The Wealthy elite of the U.S. have recorded fantastic profits over the past few years. Now they just don’t want to feel a slump in their income. The money is there and the economy won’t crumble. There may be some restructuring, but the world won’t come to an end. The economy will roll on. There is a lot of money available in the market.
A bailout will only benefit the extremely wealthy who are buying Fear hype.
A bailout only creates a wealthier elite and a poorer majority.
I applaud the congressman who are listening to their Constituency in this case the voters, average working Joe’s like me.
The bailout will only hurt everybody else raising our taxes and inflating our currency.
let the market heal and keep the money in the hands of the majority where it will fuel the economy through the masses being able to pay their bills and make purchases.
The taxpayers will have to bail themselves out of this one because it was the taxpayers’ decision to create and sustain their society on the basis of never-ending-god-knows-where-it-comes-from-bit-I’ll-have-some-more credit.
Then, having bailed themselves out, they’ll have to decide whether to go on another delusion-based binge, or begin living according to the real value of what they have produced.
In bailing out the banks, however, the taxpayer should be careful to bail out only what is in the taxpayer’s own interests to rescue. The banks should come out of this looking considerably leaner, much more accountable to the taxpayer in the way their business is conducted, and much more reluctant to use the money of those producing real money-earning goods to extend credit to those who haven’t produced enough real stuff to earn it.
Finally, the taxpayer should have the right to set up independent tax-funded commissions to audit the banks any time of the day or night. It is clearly up to the taxpayers now, since they effectively own the banks, to keep the banks running realistically, honestly, frugally and efficiently.
@Dwight from Cleveland
I couldn’t agree more. A congressman from Texas yesterday said that when we are no longer allowed to fail, soon we will no longer be able to succeed.
@ Will
“BINGO!!!!!!!!!! You have hit the nail on the head!”
I have more nails and a hammer…. I am not pleased with my government, election officials or banks handling of this mess.
Out of the two US Presidential candidates, I trust the Irishman, Brock O’Bama!
Akbar,
While this is a world problem, it is an
American centric dilemma. Zimbabwe failed and the world did not suffer. Russia fell into near extinction and the world seem to even prosper. The Middle East has been in Chaos on many occasions and still the world finances were fine. All the world still seems to catch a cold at the same time the US does.
The western, especially American, free marketeers have built a pyramid scheme that resembles that late rounds of a Jenga game. The base is rotted and full of holes. If we are going to fix this problem, we have to save ourselves first.
I love analogies. Right this second the plane is loosing altitude. Anybody that has flown knows you are instructed that in case of a cabinet depressurization, you are to first put the oxygen mask on yourself, then help others. Well the air has been sucked out of our economy and everybody’s is gasping
.
@ Tom D. Ford
Me too, Tom, me too… if not, I’ll be entering the Marry-a-Canadian-Program.
What we’ve been buzzing as the “Anglo-Saxon” style of capitalism should really be called, the “Greedy-Fat-White-Man’s” style of capitalism.
“By looking well into the actions or practices that men, governments, international organisations and private capitalists carry out, by thinking critically about the beliefs, ethics and values that found or motivate and justify them, about how these actions were initiated, we see that they men live by the old, misunderstood and wrongly applied derogation of the morality of the time that it was written: Intended here is the famous “Man is the measure of all things”. I should also speak of the famous rationalism is the best source of knowledge, certain knowledge and infallible knowledge.
The truth is that man is not the measure of all things. Man is the manager of all things; but man has been mismanaging all things. That is the fundamental and objective reason why there are sufferings, wars, pains, poverty, hunger, food scarcity, abundant and incurable old and new diseases, insecurity, lack of peace, and all kinds of circumstances that threaten human continued existence and the continued existence of the other members of our common existence or world and, not to be ignored, the failure of American (world) capitalism. God is not responsible for these. God loves us so much that he does not want us to live in fear or insecurity, and to suffer meaninglessly and purposelessly as is our misfortune now”. *
The government of the USA has been the dictator, director and manager of world economics and economies. It should be allowed to die so that either we all go back to the basic laws of economics, or socialism is crowned the saviour of the world economies. I think that it is stupid and not consistent with “the survival of the fittest” and “no permanent friends, only permanent interests” ethics of world economic and political relations that the USA government created for European governments to bail the USA banks and economy out , or to even interfere with the situation in the US banks, market, and economy. If this was happening to another country in the membership of the powerful governments of the world, the government of the USA would have taken advantage of it, not helped the government get out of it.
* Taken from my draft of a book not published yet
I give you the three Gs: Greed; Globalisation; Gambling.
If you don’t accept that, try the second law of thermodynamics according to the Austrian physicist Ludwig Boltzmann: The greater the number of systems and their constituents, the greater the disorder. (Globalisation)
Or, they forced Christians out of their banks. (Greed and Gambling).
Blaming the market, as if it wasn’t the clearest expression of collective will, is akin to blaming the sun and rain for your own overgrown garden. And no I do not suggest that a nosy neighbor do the tending.
Washington and Wall Street worship the Adam Smith and the Chicago School of Economic doctrine of Free Markets.
So with that I say let the oceanic financial market decide weather this ship sinks or swims.
In the US I trust Barney Frank, Bernie Sanders, Peter Defazio, Dennis Kucinich, and others like them, to do what’s right.
This question implies there is someone or an entity that is competent and can be trusted….
RE: The jobless speaker
He’s very idealistic, but what the heck, I could use some positive thinking. Bravo.
RE: The Canadian speaker
*Standing and clapping* Well said!
Our government removed many of the banking regulations that could have prevented the mess. Our struggling banks took advantage of the lack of regulations, knowing eventually someone would be stuck holding the bag. Predatory loan practice and a lack of regulations created this mess. Now we have Bush saying we need to push this bailout package through without any restrictions? Anytime this administration tries to use scare tactics to rush their agenda through they are up to something, remember Iraq? They said we did not have time to think about that either.
I am against this plan which would mean the United States federal government bailing out these big financial corporations. As the other moderators know I am a UK citizen. The reason why I feel this way is becayse I feel that it is fancially unjustified to bail these big companies.
Robert Evans
on holiday in Spain
hi ros, the global financial crisis that is plagueing the world today, is caused by no other thing, rather than greed, when you look at the hefty sum of money given to CEO’s and other corruptive managerial elements, as bonuses and allowances, you can see the recipe for a global credit crunch, because they the rich and high earners, earn more and get richer, and the low income and poor, get lower and poorer.so the only people that can sort this mess, some how is themselves, by reducing their draw backs,bonuses,and allowances.
@ Bail out!
Why has the market stabilized today? Perhaps the market doesn’t need help from politicians. Maybe it only needs a couple of aspirin, and a day off?
This New World Order & its Financial systems is a Joke,
I say to Nationalized resources this is the fruits of pirateering (priveteering), NAFTA is to be void & real jobs need to be created not Starbuck, Mcdonalf minimum wages.
May God bless this New World Order & its Financial systems, IMF, World Banks NGO’s to impose utopians ideologies capitalists…
It’s fairly easy to dupe people. It was never ‘I want it Now’ -it was YOU CAN HAVE IT NOW! with all the credit you could wish for & ever-increasing debt. The abrogation of the Glass-Steagall Act of 1933 – put in place by the Roosevelt administration & voted out in 1999 by the republican-controlled Congress during the 2nd Clinton administration – began the complete de-regulation of the banking industry with an Anything Goes philosophy involving speculation, take-overs, hedge funds, & what became in effect a great Ponzi scheme, hiding an ever-increasing pyramid of debt under the figures shown on the books.
By now it’s global in scope given that the toxic debt was inserted like a poison pill in the center of the ‘products’ offered by the great investment banks world-wide. No longer manufacturing anything, debt became the USA’s prime export along with the underlying philosophy – so controls have to be global. Some people will have to be held accountable – Greenspan for one – but a regulatory agency of some sort will have to be set up. It cannot be left in the hands of the bankers or the politicians.
It’s fairly easy to dupe people. It was never ‘I want it Now’ -it was YOU CAN HAVE IT NOW! with all the credit you could wish for & ever-increasing debt. The abrogation of the Glass-Steagall Act of 1933 – put in place by the Roosevelt administration & voted out in 1999 by the republican-controlled Congress during the 2nd Clinton administration – began the complete de-regulation of the banking industry with an Anything Goes philosoph involving speculation,take-overs, hedge funds, & what became a great Ponzi scheme, hiding an ever-increasing pyramid of debt under the figures shown on the books.
By now it’s global in scope given that the toxic debt was inserted like a poison pill in the center of the ‘products’ offered by the great investment banks world-wide. No longer manufacturing anything, debt became the USA’s prime export along with the underlying philosophy – so controls have to be global. Some people will have to be held accountable – Greenspan for one – but a regulatory agency of some sort will have to be set up. It cannot be left in the hands of the bankers or the politicians.
Oh please don’t involve taxpayers in this mess, most of them did not make it happen. Lend money to the market place and make sure it will pay it back. That will at leat have the significant advantage of keeping the economy going. Was Adams Smith wrong at some point?
Greed is to blame. From the bottom to the top. My neighbors that got suckered into getting a mortgage they can’t afford, the banker that cut some corners to get them a loan they can’t afford, the banks that let all these amazing mortgage loans go through, the foreign banks that wanted a piece of the pie. Greed with no foresight. The government that stood by and let it happen. I saw it coming, so you can’t say the government just “didn’t know what was happening”. Come on.
American Conservative Republicans caused these problems with their policies of De-Regulating the financial industries; they are a worse threat to the USA and the rest of the world than Osama Bin Laden ever dreamed of being.
The attacks on the World Trade Center financial towers cost a couple of Billion US Dollars and some two thousand lives but the Conservative Republican De-Regulatory attacks on the US financial system has already cost over a Trillion US Dollars and threatens the entire world economic system, and I can’t imagine how many people will commit suicide as a result of losing everything they owned.
Throw the bums out!
Yes, everybody talk and lecture on what to do, but the end everybody is greedy and again look for the same in few years time.
Given chance everybody would take the cahnces, why an unfordable person should take the loan which he can not pay, why do you think you home values go up unless surrounding economy would not grow.
why the realestate agent or even the county property appraisers who estimated or enhanced the property values to benefit hight county taxes are also to be blamed.
Think it is cycle, so no body to be blamed or no body gets credit. what I feel is let it go as low as possible now, then we try to raise agin from the bottom, instead of patching up bit by bit.
I believe that some members of Congress, the Senate and President Bush have created some type of panic in the nation and the world. These people are saying the wolf is coming, the wolf is coming.
Here in the US the market was up 200 points this morning. If the wolf is coming, where is it?
For those members of Congress that say “NO” to de bailout, I say thank you. Perhaps something need to be done, but not in haste. To hurry someone into a decision of this magnitude could be dangerous for the whole country and the world.
One more thing, if Congress want us to believe them, then remove Barney Frank, Christopher Dodd and Charlie Wrangler from the whole scenario of bailout. Corruption doesn’t fix corruption. On the contrary, it creates more of it.
Once again, perhaps we need a bailout , but do not punish the people for the reckless behavior of a corrupt liberal Congress. These people are the dictators from Washington that ruled like a mafia the business of the country. Since President Clinton, the corrupt Congress have blocked everything and anything related to the corruption of financial institutions, like he F. Mae and F. Mack. The liberals Democrats are the number one guilty party of this turmoil.
It is the working people of this country that will have to fix the problems of the corrupted politicians. It is the power of the people and the hope for a better government of the people.
We hope that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.
We shall be victorious as a nation.
I think that gov’t enterprise should show the free enterprise system the ethical and moral way of doing business.
The free market did not create this problem. The Federal Reserve cut interest rates to unnaturally low levels resulting in historic lows in mortgage rates. This, combined with laws that encouraged or even forced bad loans on banks in the name of “affordable housing” caused real estate demand and prices to soar to unnaturally high levels. Too much artificial credit created this problem, more wealth redistribution is not a long term solution. It’s equivalent to a crack addict opting to take take more drugs to avoid the pains of withdraw.
Nicholas
From Ohio, USA
The wealthy in the United States haven’t been taxed for the last eight years. There are men in the United States who HAVE 700 billion dollars that they have gotten from the American people through bad loans, and leveraging of bad loans. Why are we looking to the middle class to bail out the banks? If it’s such a critical issue, why don’t the people who are responsible for this debacle step up to the plate and do their part? It looks like class warfare being carried out on the middle class from where I stand. Only a fifth of your audience were directly affected; probably a smaller percentage of American taxpayers were likewise affected by this so-called crisis, yet they are being called upon to pay the consequences of the activities of the wealthy.
portlandmike
Yesterday was panic. Today traders have woken up and seen the world did not end. REAL companies (those that aren’t banks) are still making money and have some value. The market is sobering up and that is the recovery we see in the FTSE and Dow Jones.
A government of the people, for the people and by the people. Listen to the people and if we NEED to put 700 billion into our financial system then distribute it evenly to anyone earning below 100,000 per year. It would do much more to prop up our economy than any vague program that the greedy support. They have already shown that they will do nothing to support the people.
We need a bounty system and an Army of Trial Lawyers to hound these Conservative Republicans for the rest of their lives.
the longer i look at this, i have the feeling it is an artificially whipped-up frenzy by the powerful, to have a final quick gain on the back of the small investers, nicely supported by the media (who cares if left or right), since all cable stations are owned, by guess who, rich people.
it is freakishly suspisiouse, who the bail out and the crash has come so close to the end of bush’s term in. i guess all his croonies want to cash in before it is too late. the must fear the idea that there will be somebody coming in, who will actually stop this deregulation madness and ask them to pay their fair share. no before anybody jumps in here telling me that the top 10% pay more than 60% taxes, i would like tom point out, that this is only possible because the wealth of this nation has been gathered by the ultra rich. he 2% tax hick for somebody making 40’000 bucks affects them infinitly more, while raising little revenue, compared to doing the same for really well of people. just think that way it takes 10 people making 25’000, compared to one making 250’000 to make up the difference. not thing 2.5 millinon and we have 100 little folks to cover that spread……
http://www.larouchepac.com/
We are witnessing the Big Lie at work. The claim is being made that the bailout probably won’t cost $700 billion, that it might even turn a profit in the end, because the assets will have value. Do you really believe that, if the banks thought there was profit to be had in these assets, they would offer to share that profit with the taxpayer? Not a chance. They know these assets are worthless, so they are doing what they always do, which is try to unload them on the suckers. The reality is that $700 billion is just a drop in the bucket compared to the trillions of dollars that will be required to make a significant difference to the banks. Paulson and Bernanke know this, the banks know this, and they are simply lying to the American people.
The real issue here, though, is not the cost of the plan, but that the plan will not work, and is just another in a string of incompetent actions by the people who created this disaster in the first place. The problem facing America is that the productive side of our economy has been destroyed by these idiotic economic policies, to the point that it can no longer support the mountain of debt which has been piled upon it. The bailout plan which the bankers are pushing as essential to save “Main Street,” would simply pile more debt on top the mountain, while moving it from the books of the banks to the books of the government, and thus the taxpayers. It would do nothing, nothing at all, to solve the fundamental problem, which is the lack of productivity in the economy.
Our economy is addicted to debt, but we have reached the point where that addiction is killing us. The debt junkies in the banks and the big corporations are in withdrawal as their financial system dies, and are screaming for a fix. Just one more hit, they promise, and then we’ll straighten out and kick the habit. But that one more dose will kill them, and us, because we, too, are addicted to debt. The more real incomes fall for the lower 80 percent of the population, the more people need to go into debt to survive, but we all know that is a dead end. We have to face the truth, that our economy is bankrupt, that the policy of trading production for debt has been a disaster, and that we must take our medicine. “Hi, my name is J.P. Morgan Chase, and I’m a debt addict.”
The response from the American people played a crucial role in defeating the bailout bill on the first vote, and now is the time to escalate. Bury your elected officials, especially your Congressmen, in a blizzard of demands that the bailout be stopped–out-pressure the bankers, and the whores of the Congressional leadership and the Bush Administration. We need to bury this once and for all.
But stopping the bailout is just the first step. Dramatic action is indeed required, and that starts with the honest admission that the system is finished, and that it must be put through bankruptcy reorganization. The debt junkies must go cold turkey. Lyndon LaRouche has laid out the plan for a real recovery, and we must first admit to ourselves that it is necessary, and then demand that our political leaders implement it. This is a time for courage, and action.
http://www.larouchepac.com/
We should also remember that everything George Bush has started he has left for the next administration to finish. This latest move is just anothe example
In order to decide on whom to trust, a good knowledge of the histories of capitalism, human philosophical development, and the development of statism and power in the world should be relied on. Martin Luther, Edward Bellamy and the socialist progressives of 19th century USA, Carl Max, and African communalism should also be relied on. Religions provide the regulatory necessity to be relied on – therefore the “the wall of separation of church and state” should go. I wish to produce not details of these but part of the contents of the draft of my yet-to-be-published book:
“Among the things that could be said to be quite troubling in the world today is the refusal of the rich and powerful governments and some powerful and, or, highly influential organisations or groups of people in the super and the great countries of the world to change their present thinking and attitudes concerning the source, expression, and purpose of life and human activities.
“Change is the credo and the refrain anytime that idealistic, romantic and materialistic beliefs, concepts, models, practices, standards, ends, attitudes, values and system are intended. A functional system with its order and morality is destroyed or supplanted because change is pronounced as necessary.
“These have to change and the fundamental of the change should be to change what is individual by making it public, change private and excessive materialism through public and communal regulatory mechanism; and change by doing away with subjective, sentimental or romantic modelling and standardisation of systems to objective and purposeful modelling and standardisation of systems. Globalisation has to be understood and lived as a global form of African communalism, the practice of which is all for one, one for all, and all to the good of all and one”.
Prince Awele Odor
Lagos, Nigeria
*Thanks, moderator
Has anyone thought of the crisis that could of happened if Bush had gotten his way and privatized our social security by putting it in the stock market?
To suggest, as your previous caller did, that American-style capitalism has “failed” is absurd. The market has regular ups and downs, like any other complex system, as well as irregular ups and downs. Subprime mortgages created an artificial market condition, allowing the market to sustain an irregular up, and now it is correcting itself. There is no question that it is painful, but to suggest that the market’s losses indicate the failure of the free market itself is tantamount to suggesting that someone with a bad cold might as well be dead. Everyone is susceptible to market conditions, and the losses will be felt everywhere regardless of the action taken. At least by allowing the market to fix itself we will have removed artificial conditions that created this problem to begin with.
Thank you!
Adam
Pacific Grove, California
The financial industry in the U.S. has been grossly mismanaged by their leaders and policy makers. There is a culture of greed and self serving politics in America which is a direct consequence of unbridled capitalism and a consumerist culture. The common American’s are now being asked to bail-out the fat-cats and bureaucratic politicians who have marginalized the economy and financial sector, not just America but in the international community as well. There must be accountability from the top down and the American people should NOT bail-out these irresponsible leaders. There will be hard times ahead for everyone but this is the consequence of our collective ignorance and arrogance. The markets got themselves into this predicament and they should have to deal with their decisions as would be the case for individual citizens if their actions lead to a personal crisis. Unfortunately letting the markets fail will mean that the average citizen will have to suffer as well but this is the consequence of supporting leaders that make improper decisions. If the government has $700 billion dollars burning a hole in their pockets they should spend that money on health care, food, and fuel for their people and perhaps some financial management classes for their bankrupt financial executives and politicians. Perhaps the time has come for a global power shift because the American’s seem to have lost their way and if we continue to support these faulty ideals we will only run into more hardship further down the road.
The wealthy in the United States haven’t been taxed for the last eight years. There are men in the United States who HAVE 700 billion dollars that they have gotten from the American people through bad loans, and leveraging of bad loans. Why are we looking to the middle class to bail out the banks? If it’s such a critical issue, why don’t the people who are responsible for this debacle step up to the plate and do their part? It looks like class warfare being carried out on the middle class from where I stand. Only a fifth of your audience were directly affected; probably a smaller percentage of American taxpayers were likewise affected by this so-called crisis, yet they are being called upon to pay the consequences of the activities of the wealthy.
The problem with the USD 700 bio bailout plan is that it has a huge number attached to it that scares people. So forget the bailout plan for a while and come up with some small measures that may by themselves restore market confidence, like the plan to raise the deposit insurance. But before you implement the deposit insurance plan you could even ask the markets if that would make a difference. If the markets say that it will make a difference then you could calculate the risk of the plan for the government and put a figure on it. So markets, would it restore your confidence if deposit insurance were raised from USD 100000 to 250000 and how by how much would your confidence be restored ? Nice thing about the deposit insurance plan is that it is impersonal and blind. It affects everybody in equal measure, therefore likely to be acceptable to both sides of the house. So instead of a top-down, a bottom-up approach.
In the past 20 years we have seen the failings of both Communism and Capitalism. There is no perfect system: everything grinds to a halt with Communism and everyone stabs each other in the back with Capitalism. We are not just animals, where herds go through feast and famine, sometimes becoming extinct. It is best for society for all men to have a home, an education and health-care. Homes, Real Estate, is really what keeps an economy going and our leaders can not leave this up to the jungle economics of Capitalism – they have to step in and guide Capitalism through this mess – not only for the best of the world, but for the best of the USA. Stubborn staunch so-called conservatives need to put their ego’s on the back burner and do what is right. We need such Progressive Leader – that is Change.
My spouse and I bank with Washington Mutual, which recently achieved the singular distinction of the largest bank failure in US history. Several days ago the local paper reported that the last CEO of WaMu, who had been on the job for just 3 weeks, was entitled to a severance package of 18 million dollars! For 3 weeks “work”! Is it any wonder that the bank failed or that the American people oppose the bailout of those who should be jailed for fiscal malfeasance?
WHo can you trust to see things right? No one really. Government leaders did nothing to set up regulation to avoid this situation and the institutions themselves were too busy counting profits and dreaming of bonuses and fat paychecks to consider the party might end. In the end ‘joe sixpack’ will ineveitably pick up the tab as we are sold the story that it is tough that the wall street fat cats fiddled while Rome burned and they really messed up, but we have to have them so let’s bail them out for the next round as we have no choice. The rich just seem to always have it their way as they have the ear of governments and the right handshake for their future employees once out of office!
I think that we really need to ask “can we trust our legislators to look out for our interests?”. We know the banks don’t care about us (ie; credit card by-laws that hurt the very consumers they needed and the fact that they were so eager to forclose on martgages) and now we see our lgeslators insisting that we have to prop up these same banks. Where should our loyalties lie?
This New World Order privilege the few (dividend lovers), Capitalist does not have a cooperation base but competition base fundamentals. Its is time for cooperation, just to think one man with billions of dollars want more is absurd Bill Gates comes to mind with Microsoft was his fortune made of 1 0 & DRACONION marketing schemes …
It seems to me that Mugabe got stuck with trying to fix the problems created by colonialism and it just looks like a situation where no one can win unless the other side loses badly.
How can both sides lose less, what is the balance that can be be agreed upon by all involved?
So far it is just a lose-lose situation.
I believe the question isn’t if someone is a good leader, but if they are effective leaders. Good or bad is relative, depending on your political ideation. The question is if you can deliver your platforms.
Jessie
Vancouver, Washington
It’s clearly a time to take stock of where things are at and how they got there. The lessons learnt may be invaluable in helping the system change and evolve for the better. Radically perhaps I believe it to be everyone’s right to have at least token-payment housing–having a whole market system based fallaciously on housing affordability may one day seem primitive if not cruel indeed when mortgage-crunches appear to be part of the game!
This is a quote from Fitzgerald’s The Great Gatsby:
Nick remarks, “They were careless people, Tom and Daisy — they smashed up things and creatures and then retreated back into their money or their vast carelessness or whatever it was that kept them together, and let other people clean up the mess they had made” (187-88).
We should finally crack and break up this double standard where those who can hide behind a corporate shield, and a false belief that what they do in the name of “free-market” economics — no matter the outcome — is acceptable. They often seem to think they don’t have to be individually responsible for the harmfull outcome, but always step up to take credit when their actions make themselves or a very few others money.
Good show, WHYS and the “around 100 young people from all over the world who are here for ‘Transatlantic Network 2020′.”
Thanks!
Hi Dwight From Cleveland
September 30, 2008 at 6:06 pm
It is true that the entire world depends on US finance, expertise, direct investment and employment. There is nothing wrong with that! The arrangement is mutual and Washington derives political advantages.
No one wants to see the American householder or European farmer suffer. Has American foreign policy failed? Have American finances been too exposed to outside factors such as high oil prices? Why has the US public lost faith in the Administration? Is the refusal of Congress to ratify $700 billion for the economy a rebuttal of the Administration?
.
@ PortlandMike
RE the market taking aspirin
It is very–very!–suspicious that the market is almost 300 points higher today. What was yesterday, a manipulation of scare tactics from the wall street fat cats to try and get the congress to pass a bill that would save their assets?
My congress rep better not vote, “no”, she needs to vote, “hell no!” to any other bail out attempts.
I would like to know what people think a “serious recession” would mean for them in practical terms. Does it mean not being able to go on vacation or are we talking bread lines and 25% unemployment?
Akbar,
I believe the answer to your questions are all “yes”. What to do about it is what is in question? We have allowed our capital to be exposed to the world for too long. Many have justified it as “helping developing economies.” We have help themn grow but not helped them avoid the mistakes we had learned from in the past. People with power greed in their eyes saww the reduced regulations as a way to make more money. Now it s time for the US to make its own blenders and televisons again.
Capitalism was designed to self destruct eventually, simply because it is based on corruption, greed and self serving deceit. It functions by the lowest instincts of human nature, and with out guidelines and government regulations, and without moral values of any kind, it was doomed from day one, just a matter of time.
Who do I trust to sort this global disaster out?? I look around at the western world of today, and sadly I do not see any leaders with vision and integrity to pick up the pieces and take the world in a new direction. Clearly Barrack Obama is the only choice for president of the USA, but as an inspiration for a better future for the global community, I think I would back some one like Hugo Chavez. George Bush and all other right wing criminals of the world should be prosecuted and lock away for all eternity, so they can never again inflict this kind of catastrophe on the world.
Thank for your column space,
Yours sincerely and respectfully
Preben
the longer i look at this, i have the feeling it is an artificially whipped-up frenzy by the powerful, to have a final quick gain on the back of the small investers, nicely supported by the media (who cares if left or right), since all cable stations are owned, by guess who, rich people.
Evil grin! I told you so!
@ John in Salem
I think that a serious recession means a stand still for our economy, food shortages, higher crime rates, less spending by regular people. For some extremely well off people; they will not be effected. However, middle class people may have to start putting off the extras, and the lower class may really have to do without more than they already have to. They will be the hardest ones hit.
For me personally, maybe putting off my master’s degree. 😦 We will have to see as this progresses. I’ve decided my last “big purchase” will be a new iPod. If I am going to have to start growing my own food and etc. I want to have my music or I might be in a bad mood! 😉 My nano is old and is messing up…..
@preben jacobsen
How can you say Obama is the only choice? He was also in favor of the bailout plan. The “only” choice for President will be someone who is not a politician, and considering how America sits and expects the Government to save them as opposed to them doing something about it, we will always have someone in the White House who’s only goal is to make whomever bought and paid for him/her happy.
@ Todd in Charlotte
You made a really good point. I think that the problems we have been having show that while we elect these people in the faith that they will do good things for us we are not their first priority. First and foremost, politicians want to secure their income and status. I have no problem with that as long as they do what they are supposed to be doing with regards to the common people. We are not going to always agree with our elected officials 100% and they may even have the best intentions but for whatever reason just don’t follow through with all the things they say they will do.
I personally feel like electing Obama would be like electing a 3rd grader and giving him/her free reign to experiment with our already very fragile economy. I can’t help but think of the what ifs….what if we are attacked during all of this? Would we have enough for sandwiches when he sits down for his talks? What if he starts enacting all of these programs (which he promises to do) and we go even farther into the red? What if he cuts taxes for the common people? That would really be nice but we would have nowhere to spend our few pennies because businesses would be belly up. What we need to do is do away with all of the extras and work on building back up from there.
Yes, must be an American ALAN GREENSPAN or HENRY kISSINGER.
I think we should also remember that the major finacial institutions of this country have already sold outto foreign intersts (Citi belongs to the Saudis). That means that any bailout funds commited would be under the control of foreign interests.
@bruce sickles
GREAT point. IMO, that’s just another reason not to bail them out, and let the economy reset “naturally”
People Please!! We are talking about making sure that we can still get credit. Easy credit is what got us here. How can easy credit get it fixed? That’s like saying “the boat is filling with water, everybody drink some.”
To capitalist fascists; any other form of government base on none economist principals is communism, beware as socialism is the first step toward a threw democratic communism society when the productive class (middle class workers) have a true voice therefore a decisions in any policies making process…no more dictatorship where a minority group rules & impose their views over the majority…
May God bless this New World Order & its fascist’s economic systems
Hey this is great. Back in the 1930s they were jumping out of windows in NY skyscrapers. It’s not happened yet, so it can’t be that bad. YET… So I say, fat cats, why not jump? It’ll make great TV pictures, and you won’t be missed!
I grew up underneath the American’s nuclear umbrella, which I never asked for. As a child, I expected to die in the Cuban missile crisis. I’ve heard sneerin arogant yanks lecturing about their fantastic free market. I just know decisions made in Wall Street and London literally condemn areas of the natural world to be trashed for short term gain.
So go on fat cats. Find that high window sill. Higher the better. Jump. Jump. Jump.
the only way ‘their’ going to sort it out is to put it firmly on our backs / So say good buy to the life you’ve come to know ……but as long as footballers are on £90,000 a week …….you can rest assured all is well with the world.
This is the revelation of The Great Lie of capitalism. The nasty little story that we tell to the sick, the homeless, those injured in our pirate wars is that they too could be rich but for their bad choices. In the US it is acceptable to leave your brother or your son in the gutter. The government feels no requirement to protect the poor man sleeping with a blanket of snow.
The rich financiers CHOSE this mess. They invented a system where they could get mighty wealthy by creating complicated financial vehicles that were really mazes with a core of fraud. Eventually enough people burrowed through those mazes and came back to reveal the truth; there is no value in their paper.
Now they demand that all of the rest of us buy their valueless paper at face value or they will crash the whole mess. I say let them. They’ve never told the truth up till now; they aren’t telling the truth now.
If the markets are currently rallying without a bailout having been passed, is this $700 billion necessary? Assets and money in the world has not suddenly disappeared in the last week, it’s simply a matter of financiers of trusting each other and setting value for these opaque securities. It’s not a matter of US taxpayers trusting them. There is no one person I would trust to straighten this out, that’s not even the right question. I am a US citizen who moved to Italy precisely for poor US policy ideas like this.
Wall Street should have the guts to actually accept the price of the risks they took. When things are going well they scream bloody murder if anyone suggests government intervention.
To Todd in Charlotte
re. Obama only choice
My friend,
We are on the same page. By “only choice” I meant the choice between the only two candidates looking for the job. Anyway, judging by the number of Rep. members who rejected the bail out, or welfare for big oil and banks, McCain may find himself without a party at the end of the day. If I went away and thought about it, I could probably think of a number of people whom I would nominate, but not in public.
They may go into shock and possibly die at the very prospect of being left holding that baby, or very big hornets nest.
Take care, and thanks for taking the time comment on my thoughts
Yours sincerely
Preben
Don’t forget the “money” comes back from holiday on thursday. ie both Muslim (who won’t touch busines until after Eid – think of gulf states and Saudis ) and Jewish (which I think finishes on the same day,) will mean that there are new players.
What effect that will have remains to be seen, but both are key factors where massive cash injections are to be seen.
I trust the Free Market and the World Community
While waiting for the Senate vote (only 1/3rd up for re-election 4 november) bottom feeding is going on in the ‘markets’ (Buy Low, Sell High). Mr Goldman-Sachs-Paulson must be on tenterhooks – will he get all the boodle stashed in his Blind Trust when the Bush administration packs its bags?
Don’t even dream of trusting Alan Greenspan to sort things out – he’s touring the planet trying to cover up the mess he helped to create. Banks buying up banks – throwing extra employees out on the street. Any bailout for them? I doubt it. This is the September Surprise. What will happen in October just before the election to scare the world silly?
While waiting for the Senate vote (only 1/3rd up for re-election 4 november) bottom feeding is going on in the ‘markets’ (Buy Low, Sell High). Mr Goldman-Sachs-Paulson must be on tenterhooks – will he get all the boodle stashed in his Blind Trust when the Bush administration packs its bags? Don’t even dream of trusting Alan Greenspan to sort things out – he’s touring the planet trying to cover up the mess he helped to create. Banks buying up banks – throwing extra employees out on the street. Any bailout for them? I doubt it. This is the September Surprise. What will happen in October just before the election to scare the world silly?
Definitely not the oligarchy saying screw the people and REPRESENTATION who want to pass the bailout anyway because they have vested interests and donations from the crooks of the Federal Reserve of the Bank of New York.
So people who don’t have good credit can’t get loans …too bad. Bush and his family’s wealth is tied up with these people who have created a financial mechanism out of control. Maybe the most responsible thing is to let it crash. The market bounced back when they all went on vacation.
“No animal except man makes bargains …no dog exchanges bones with another.” ~Adam Smith
So the first proposal was rejected, all 3 pages, while the second proposal, I don’t how many pages, but by some people said to be “the size of phone book”, slipped through. How did they manage to put a proposal of hundreds of pages with calculations and projections etc together in a couple of days?. Is it possible – no, it can’t be – that they had both proposals ready all along? Why sweeten the deal if they could get a blank cheque with no strings attached?. But one must admire their generous efforts, giving the people, or the victims, a few minor tax rebates over the next few years, all paid for with the peoples own money. Vow, what a deal. On the other hand, what difference does another $trillion make on top of the 50 or 60 trillions that the USA is in debt??. And what will happen next week or the week after when more financiers bite the dust, more bail outs??. The USA have always been so proud of the “free market”, with no government involvement, so why the sudden change of minds, why not let the market decide. Besides, in the “free market” those responsible for creating such a disaster would be fired on the spot, and face charges of criminal negligence. Anyway, no doubt we haven’t seen the end of this scandal yet, so maybe at end of the day, we may still see heads rolling. One can only hope and pray for justice. To all the decent struggling people of the world – don’t give up yet, it aint over till it’s over.
best regards: preben
Well, the story continues and all we’ve been able to figure out is who we can’t trust. Tho’ I find it interesting that the bailout for the banks requires the people to support the one’s who caused the mess but the bailout for the people (passed in July to help people facing foreclosure) allows the banks to choose if they want to refinance troubled borrowers. Who would you trust?
Politicians and ‘experts’ alike are fond of describing the current financial crisis as systemic in their arguments for government intervention. However, financial institutions can be said to form a system only when they work under certain obligations and restrictions laid down by the state. Almost eight years of Bush administration deregulation was in effect a controlled demolition of the system, leaving behind businesses rather than institutions, and the only obligation of a business is profit.
Well, as we all know, they messed up and they failed AS BUSINESSES, and in their fall they took with them the shadow of what once was, i.e. a financial system. This system does not in effect exist today, and bailing out the failed businesses will not restore it. It needs rebuilding from scratch.
Niels Sorensen
Instead of bailing them out, help the banks to break-out!
Whether jailed in a public prison or in a privately operated prison you are still a prisoner. All those who speak about our “free financial markets” have been blinded by the fact that the credit rating agencies are private. Come on! These agencies are just governmental Risk-Kommissars empowered by the bank regulators in Basel who thought they could play out their bed-room fantasies of a world with no bank defaults.
If you set up a system that is composed of: a.- minimum capital requirements for banks that are based on risk; b.- the empowerment of few agencies to measure that risks; and c.- the need to immediately respond and mark to market the consequences of any change in their perceptions of the risks, then you have gathered up the necessary and sufficient elements to guarantee that, sooner or later, you will suffer a financial tsunami, exactly along the lines of the one currently hitting our markets.
Politicians and ‘experts’ alike are fond of describing the current financial crisis as systemic in their arguments for government intervention. However, financial institutions can be said to form a system only when they work under certain obligations and restrictions laid down by the state. Almost eight years of Bush administration deregulation was in effect a controlled demolition of the system, leaving behind businesses rather than institutions, and the only obligation of a business is profit.
Well, as we all know, some very big players messed up and failed AS BUSINESSES, and in their fall they took with them the shadow of what once was, i.e. a financial system. This system does not in effect exist today, and bailing out the failed businesses will not restore it. It needs rebuilding from scratch.
Niels Sorensen