Goodmorning, it’s Karnie with you today..
The 700 billion dollar rescue US deal has stalled. The proposal indicates each American taxpayer will pay out 5,300 dollars to rescue the banking system and save the world economy from catastrophe. Is it right for the public to bail out the mistakes of bankers?
***
The US military says American troops have exchanged fire with Pakistani soldiers after their helicopters (operating in Afghanistan) were shot at by Pakistani forces. The President of Pakistan, Asif Ali Zardari, said he would not allow Pakistani sovereignty to be violated, even by its friends. There seems to be a a shift in relations between Pakistan and the US which may impact the global fight against terrorism. So with this in mind, is Pakistan the most pressing issue at the moment?
***
As developed countries struggle to keep their heads above water due to the financial crisis, discussions are still taking place about increasing aid for developing countries. Is this a time to look after your own country instead of taking care of others?
Mark adds :
Should the Nobel prize be used to make political points ? or is that the point of it ?
and why is the far right making inroads into Europe ?
RSS feed
BBC World Have Your Say 
Hello all! I’ll be watching over the blog tonight beginning at 2000 BST / 3.00pm CST. In the meantime, feel free to suggest topics for our discussion this evening. See you then…
Hi Kelsie,
Sneaky ‘daylighters’ risk firing by working extra jobs
Nebraska father abandons nine children under ‘safe haven’ law
What Happens When We Die?
Here is where I loose faith in the system. Even if you can prove that the best way out of this mess is to let the system collapse, let people go bankrupt, let the jobs disappear, and let inflation reign king and recession set in. Let us say you figure out that it will take 10 years to recover. In 10 years when we come out the other side we will be stronger and more vibrant then ever before, and wiser. The economy as a whole will be on more equal ground, and the prosperity promised in the declaration and constitution will once again be re-instated. But, who is going to vote for you with that kind of wisdom? People in this country want you to do something about natural disasters and are willing to spend a trillion dollars beating up everybody in the bar after we get sucker punched. What are the chances the voters are going to accept, “dig yourself out of your own hole” as an answer.
Still not certain about this instance, but it is because people have to get elected into office by a “blissful constituency” that often the best man for the job doesn’t even make it to serious consideration.
Hi Kelsie–
After last’s night’s TP tonight should be interesting.
SO any thoughts on whether McCain will show up to the debate tomorrow? Who decides if the debates gets canceled? Is there a formal board?
Also, apparently, men cry too on campaign trails… Biden gets emotional
Well it sounds like talking about universities has interested a few this afternoon. For my two cents worth I think it is unfair to compare US and European universities. In the US they are stilled used for general education of the masses. If you don’t have a degree it is difficult to progress in most careers and your chances of earning above minimum wage are limited.
Europe however has alternative qualifications, many on the job. University are reserved for the most academically able in society. This may seem elitist to many Americans, but what they don’t see is that those who don’t make uni have other options for decently paid jobs and careers (anybody who’s paid a plumber in the UK 50 GBP just as the call out charge will have to admit the tradesmen make an alright wage).
jess,
i think he has lost the plot. i am worried that somebody who cannot deal with more than one thing and work into the evening will become president.
obama will be showing up and if maccain does not every american can make up their own mind about this. it can be agreat chance for obama to be presidential and answer all the questions in detail. might be risky, but recently he looked more and more presidential while being able to spell out his plan.
more shocking is the fact that maccain now wants to delay the vice-presidential debate, and move fridays debate to that date.
i guess the republicans are starting to poop themseves realizing that carobou barbie is just not ready and looks more and more like a deer in the heads lights.
biden does his gaffs, but she has no clout and clue what so ever.
hell i am more qualified in forgein policy than she ever will. i lved in swizterland, italy, the uk and now in the southwest i am interacting with hispanic and south american people every day. hell at every job i had i did have people from all over the world working with me. regarding energy policy i know at least as much, since i used leaded, unleaded and diesel in my cars, had city gas and propane to heat, used to heat my flat with coals and coal briquets, as well as wood and use camping stove gas regularly. oh well and have a small solar system to heat water and i used to wind sail. i am an energy speciallist. uhh forgot i work a little on algeal biofuel as well, and have a friend working on cellulosic fuel
Hello my Precious Kelsie in the US… And a very warm “Welcome Back” to you
Dear World Have Your Say,
Yes the top managers are getting paid way too much.
$20 million dollar salaries and parachutes are immoral in the face of their poor performance evidenced by the failure of the system. They should be punished. But right now this issue is distraction.
That amount of money is insignificant compared to the $700 billion that is on the block (in addition to the upward of $400 billion already committed)now is what puts our enconomic system in peril from now on.
To give this money to Paulson with no strings, and no possible consequences of his failure is just plain suicide. President Bush is once again invoking the mushroom cloud to make a panicking public who will demand action without consideration.
If the US is going to make this kind of citizens’
money available, it should be in the form of a loan payable with interest, or in exchange for commensurate ownership interest in the institutions in question.
To simply buy junk assets and hope to get that money back by reselling them, amounts further rip off of the taxpayer.
This argument in Congress about CEO pay is a distraction.
The Republicans and the Bush administration will be able to yeild on that issue in order to gain the $700 billion they demand. We are being sold a pig in a poke.
-Sean
The bible tells a simple story of how to get rich honestly and wisely; most people I relate the story to, leaving off the end, get it wrong. In the story, a man finds buried treasure in a neighbor’s field. He can’t dig it up, because it’s not on his property, so he reburies it. How does he get it? Most people suggest making a deal with the owner, in the story however, the man buys the property without disclosing the nature of his interest. The owner presumably owned the land for purposes not related to the treasure, so after the land was purchased, the buyer was clear to dig up and keep the treasure. Apply that story to discoveries of oil and gold, and even water in California. Remember the movie “Chinatown”? Today we condemn the industrial barons of L.A. for deceiving the farmers of the Owens Valley and stealing their water, but when put in the context of the Biblical example, the L.A. investors saw the value of water, transferred from Owens Lake, while the farmers in Owens Valley did not. They sold their land, and when L.A. had gotten enough property to claim the water rights, they did just that, and drained the lake. Of course there are environmental, and social questions, and what not, but the basic idea isn’t as wrong as we’ve been led to believe, if the Bible is the ultimate authority on what is right and what is not.
If we take morality back to its core; a focus on materialism is one sin almost universally recognized by all religions. So in that case, a focus on making money is indeed wrong. These bankers though were reckless and greedy, making money with so little regard to the consequences of their actions, they not only displaced hundreds of thousands from their homes, opening a potential social crisis with grave consequences, but they may have also pushed the world into an economic crisis, with even more dire consequences. And, to ice this fetid cake, they’ve destroyed their own industry in the process (Investment Banking on Wall Street) and may have even left Wall Street itself, and New York City, in a reduced state as decentralization may now become the future of U.S. finance. Greedy, reckless, self destructive. Sounds bad to me.
One of the primary reasons that the U.S. Treasury gives for impending massive bail-out is that these companies are “too big to fail.” This begs the question about how big is too big to fail and, in line with your conversation, should companies be permitted to become too big to fail?
Just something to ponder – who would the WHYSers like to see in a debate?
It can be any historical or current political figure or a combination of both.
Sean what makes it worse is the fact that the US government is buying this shares at “hold to maturity value”, i.e. approximately the value of the loans before the credit crunch, not the current market price. Therefore the government is taking all the risk and passing all the upside to the banks. The junk bonds might be worth something, and if they government got them at near market prices then the could make a profit from this (they are the ones taking the risk). Buying the loans may solve the problem but ut the details of this bail out just seem wrong on many differing fronts.
Will
It would have to be Churchill. Great orator, used simply words to express complex ideas and very blunt at times great combination.
Hi gang ! :-)… Please guys, check this link out : http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7634338.stm. With my love… Yours forever, Lubna in Baghdad…
@ Will
Marx vs. Smith
@ Will
Aldous Huxley vs. George Orwell
Ghandi vs. Chingis Kahn
James T. Kirk vs. Jean-Luc Picard
Chairman Mao vs. President Eisenhower
President Lincoln vs. Gov. Bush
And the headliner, in a no holds barred ultimate steel cage two-men-enter-one-man-leaves death match with Life, the Universe and Everything on the line!!!!
Buddha vs. Mohammed
@ Lubna
September 25, 2008 at 7:54 pm
violence breeds hatred: It’s not just in the West Bank but everywhere
Just for the sake of it, I would like to see a debate between Satan and God.
Julie P~
Have you ever read The Book of Job straight through? Some scholars say that this book actually started out as a stage play.
@ Julie
Will asked for historical or current people to debate, not fictional book characters.
@portlandmike,
I’ve tried, but the print is too small.
@Steve,
It’s called humor. I was going for the sublime. Indulge.
@ Julie
You stole my idea! 😦 That’s ok though. 😉
@ Will and debate opponents.
God, The devil, Jesus, and Mohammed. I wouldn’t really care what they say. Each of them just prvong their existance would answer almost every qestion I ever had.
“If I could ask God a question, I wouldn’t have anymore questions to ask?” – John Wallace
Julie P
It’s a short story … http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=22&chapter=1&version=9
I guess the other question would be, “If there are Business ‘too big to fail’ are there others then that are ‘too small so succeed'”?
@ Will
Last 3 for the day:
Socrates vs. Tony Blair
Darwin vs. St. Thomas Aquinas
Robert Mugabe vs. My Fist, Boots, and Automobile.
Kelsie in Houston
TP September 25, 2008 at 5:13 pm
“We can only see pink when faced with a real left.” Pun intended? Just kidding.
Actually, yes. Pun intended. :=)
@portlandmike,
I work at company with a very liberal policy. I can go anywhere on the internet, then I met your link. I have to wait to read it until I get home. It’s a restricted site. My first one at a job that I have been at for a year and half.
Lubna Alhamdulillah:
Now more and more average people throughout Palestine are being equipped with cameras and the technology to publish their videos. Now, if we could do more to prevent retaliatory attacks on those who publish their videos.
oh ugh, my typos! Kelsie, if you fix them, I will be eternally grateful. Thank you!
I would also like to see Mark Shuttelworth, the creator of Ubuntu operating system vs. Bill Gates secretary. The topic should be the Microsoft operation system. His secretary uses it, so she is bound to know a lot, and she has “executive experience” too. Heck throw Melinda Gates into the mix. She should be qualified because she is married to Bill. (Gates that is.) Mark on the other hand has no experience with Microsoft. So what would he know about operating systems?
will,
got to be
superman v.s. batman, and i put my money on batman, because he is much darker…..
Welcome Back Kelsie in Houston!!!!!
We all were pray for you [and your family and society] during the time….You Were not around to participate….
Dennis
@ U.S. Stock Market
So why does the new keep saying “stock prices soar/surge over bailout”??? Is +1.6% considered good??? I would have though it would have raised at least 5% after their bail out?!?!?! Any comments???
-Anthony, LA, CA
I have had enough of storm scares, from Bloomberg: Atlantic Storms Strengthen, Take Aim at East Coast
Poor babies, 😦 from AP: EU bans baby food with Chinese milk, recalls grow
Obama, we need to re-write the job description for President of the USA to include multi-tasking. Apparently, McCain can’t talk and think at the same time, from LA Times: Obama calls on McCain to keep Friday debate date
@ Debate Pairings …
A bit of deviation
Ros Atkins (BBC) vs Adam Boulton (Sky News)
Robert ~
I think the way the education is set up in Europe is more advantageous to the US. I know many very intelligent people that are just not academics but very good at anything they do. Not everyone wants to go to college and for others it is a financial burden that can’t be conquered.
Hi Dwight From Cleveland
Reyr September 25, 2008 at 7:15 pm post
You have asked some unsettling questions.
Is it best to let the system collapse? No, unless someone has a better idea? But someone is responsible for bank foreclosures, bad loans and Wall Street disaster. Is it the system? The Administration? You have a right to know.
Mortgage brokers and banks should have given house buyers a break. Compound interest on mortgages should have been reduced, but no. House buyers bore the brunt of losses.
We are used to the image of the ‘hard working’ American, but that is not always true. There are simply too many flaws in the American financial system. Board room policy should not override public interest.
The US government has become increasingly involved in finance and corporate America. This is asking for trouble. If only the Fed and the Treasury had steered clear of the market and acted as regulatory and supervisory agencies, which they are. Much of the current chaos and heart break could have been avoided.
McCain needs to stick to going to the debate on Friday. Honestly I really don’t see how he can offer any help with the “economic crisis.” Additionally why can’t he make the debate since it is later in the day? I suppose it’s past his bedtime….
Safe Haven Teen Dumps
This makes me sick. The parents were dropping off their children because they could not handle their teenagers any more. Honestly, I do not think that we as a nation are raising our children properly any more. How many parents do you know who prop a bottle in their babies’ mouths and let them fall asleep like that so that they can occupy themselves with some mundane task? How many families do you know who use the TV as a babysitter? How many people consider it parental involvement in their children’s academic life to shout at them to do their homework from their seat in front of the living room TV while their children flip pages in anxious confusion at the dining room table?
I know several exceptions to the rule, but I really suspect that this is the generality of our collective involvement in our children’s lives. And then we act all shocked and awed when our kids make the front page with guns and casualties at school.
My heart aches for our children. It should have started at birth when we cradled them in our arms and didn’t break eye contact with them for a second while they nursed until they fell asleep in our arms. Sadly, not every child has the blessing of such a beginning.
Anthony,
so would i and tell me i would have solled every singel stock if it did, because that roller coaster is not over, yet. that is probably the reason why it did not
Hi all–thanks very much, Lubna and Dennis! We are on the way to recovery; Galveston Island opened yesterday on a very limited basis.
@Shirley: I only see one typo!
Some good discussion going already…
I’m particularly interested by Jessica’s AP article and the row over debate scheduling…what’s on your collective minds?
Venessa
I’m not suggesting the European system is any better than the US, just that its different. These differences make comparisons difficult and unfair to make.
@Chinese milk:
Premiere Wen has called for tighter regulatory controls–I wonder how the EU’s ban will impact the speed or severity of this?
@Debate:
I’m not sure how delaying the presidential debate (and, interestingly, also the VP debate) will further the work being done on the economic storm; surely there are more (qualified) people looking at the problem besides Mr McCain and Mr Obama…
@Shirley:
Gotcha covered!
@ Pink Shirley
Thank you for posting that story. I can’t believe parents would do that with their kids. That is so sad 😦
pink,
a family of nine. maybe they should have used protection. that is like a breeding farm for children.
[b]”I’m an old Navy pilot, and I know when a crisis calls for all hands on deck,” he said. “That’s the situation in Washington at this very hour, when the whole future of the American economy is in danger. I cannot carry on a campaign as though this dangerous situation had not occurred, or as though a solution were at hand.”[b]
Um, yeah, an old pilot that wrecked several planes…and what does being a former pilot have to do with the economy?
Robert,
I think the system makes more sense. There are plenty of people in the US that have degrees that have nothing to do with their jobs nor would they need it to do the job.
Will thinks that McCain is running away from Obama. Dwight is still focused on the bailout. And I have ranted on about Palestine.
I know that we are not the only three bloggers here. When will we get to see your blog, Julie? Who else blogs?
@Debate,
Since it’s fall and some people, I don’t know who, but some people don’t want to debate, then I suggest we have a bobbbing for apples contest instead. It may be fun to see who has real teeth and who doesn’t. 😉
@ Will,
After the SNL skit, Hillary and Palin. Plus, it’s be so much fun to see Al Sharpen debate Dick Chaney. Can you imagine? It would be entertaining to watch two people who never smile attack each other.
@ Jens,
Whatever, I’d throw Spiderman into the mix. My money is on spidy.
Debate
It didn’t make sense until I saw that McCains proposal would also delay the VP debate. Bidden may not be the best public speaker in the world, but from what I have seen from Palin I think any extra time the republicans can buy for coaching her the better. But wait that’s me being cynical about politicians again.
Julie ~
We can only do that if Dwight runs the naked jell-o matches too. hehehehe!
i have no idea how maccain could contribute to solving this economic crisis. he implied himself he did not have a clue as how the economy works.
this is just political postering, “look american people how much i care about you, i even stopped the campain to contribute with my non-existing knowledg’. however the alskan moose-jerky is out there kissing babies at the 9/11 memorial site. i just hope enough people can see through this sharade of BS.
PLUS doe a president not have to deal with more than one issue a day. like, “sorry my dear russian counter part, i cannot talk to you tomorrow, because i will have to open a zoo, tow things in one day is way too much for the american president”. it doe worry me a little. i used to like maccain, but lately he has turned into some person who clearly shows that he is not a maverick but just a plain weirdo.
jess,
na spidy is toooooooo wired ;). i mean all this gunk spraying from his hands, yieks. i guess as a resident NY-er you would have to support him……
“…and what does being a former pilot have to do with the economy?”
Hmm…sounds like “logic” in the same vein as, “I can see Alaska from my back porch, therefore I have foreign policy experience.”
Jennifer, Nelson posted it first. Must put blame where blame is due. :=)
Kelsie, it looks fixed. I thought that I counted two, but if there was only one, then cool beans. Oh, beans. Hungry. Darn. Would you believe the tomates that have been pouring into our house? I have been frying them for breakfast in the morning, squooshing them between toasted bread with mayo for a sandwich at lunchtime, and stuffing them down in slices with my beans at supper. Fried tomatoes: I chope the small buggers into quarters and the medium-sized ones into sixths. I save the large ones for slices at lunch and supper. I toss them into a frypan, dump some margerine/butter/spread whatever you call it on top, and sprinkle curry, parsley, ginger, garlic, and sometimes sugar and salt on top of them. Then, I turn the heat on blazing high and let ‘er rip. When it finally disintegrates into a pile of thick mush, I turn it off, dump it into a bowl, and either spoon it as is or dip/scoop with bread.
Jens, it is possible to raise a large family that is emotionally, physically, and spiritually healthy. If a couple intend to have a large family, then they should be comitted to taking care of them. If they cannot handle the large fmaily, then The Pill it is – and should be.
julie p,
no i would think a naked jello fight between michelle and cindy would draw quite a crowed, although it would be aa rather short fight. maybe we could throw in sahra on cindie’s side, because i think without a gun she is a weak ass pussy cat.
she seems to forget that hockey mums only talk hockey and drive their off-spring to pratice and games.
@ Jens
Didn’t they say that John McCain needed to be there at the talks to help persuade other Republicans to vote accordingly? Both Obama and McCain should be there because they should BOTH be concerned. After all, don’t they already have jobs in Washington? Yes. They need to do them also.
I don’t think he made a political play. I am sure that he is just as concerned about the economy as everyone else but I don’t believe that he is I guess Obama wants the debate to go forward because he’s already memorized responses to every possible question he might be asked! 😀 Do we really need to discuss “Moose-jerky” when it would be so much more interesting talking about Biden who is apparently very in touch with his feminine side when trying to woo votes by offering personal tragedies in his life up for sympathy? Please, spare me the dramatics. I really don’t trust that guy- AT ALL!
@ Kelsie,
“Hmm…sounds like “logic” in the same vein as, “I can see Alaska from my back porch, therefore I have foreign policy experience.”
LOL—stop knocking her foreign policy experience.
@Jens
That’s right, I’m loyal to Spidy. Though, batman is from NYC until it was remained Gothman City… so I’d bet on him, too. Some flying man from another planet, nope!
Hi Akbar and Dwight
unless someone has a better idea?
I think I do have a better idea. How about we take the money for the program and invest it in Drill Here Drill Now and pay less. At the same time we can also put some money in alternate power. This would do too things:
1. Help the US is energy independent.
2. Put people to work.
If we do those things then the economy will grow because those people will spend money in restaurants, stores, and save some of it. This will create money flow into the banks, which in turn will get the back on track. It is time for money to be invested in the little people and have it trickle up for a change.
@Jessica:
“LOL—stop knocking her foreign policy experience.”
How about this as foreign policy experience:
“I’m from Texas. I can see the U.S. from my front lawn. I have foreign policy experience!” 😉 Just kidding.
So now, McCain has no excuse to avoid the debate…. or what will he come up with next. Financial crisis: Republicans and Democrats agree £380 billion bail-out deal
AP Top News at 3:40 p.m. EDT
@ Jens
P.S.
It would be interesting to know whom moderated your last post.
So much for not saying anything that would be a personal attack. I guess that just applies to people that post on here…..
@Pink,
Do you think that the Nebraska law is a good one?
Afterall, some might say that it supports parental neglect by allowing parents to abandon their children with no repercussions. Think of the long term psychological effects on the children. This is horrible.
Many parents have the 2day old infant into their own bed in their own room with their bottle and the baby monitor sitting on the baby’s dresser. the baby has his/her own bed, dresser, tons of clothes, toys, animals to snuggle with. The only thing that the baby lacks is a parent’s touch and care.
Amen to your post!
ON AIR: Priorities or Politics: Which comes first?
Was John Mc Cain’s call to postpone a prearranged presidential debate?
The Arizona senator said he won’t show up for Friday’s presidential debate if no deal is reached on the government’s $700 billion bailout proposal, leading Democrats to accuse him of looking for a distraction.
Democratic candidate Barack Obama’s running mate, Sen. Joe Biden on Thursday accused the Republicans of looking for a “distraction.”
Was John McCain simply playing to the gallery or Barack Obama simply refusing to see another perspective
call us on country code +44 ….
@Nelson:
Congress rises for the campaign season on Friday, and an agreement has been apparently reached between the two parties and the two houses…I’m not sure why, now, there would be a need for either Mr McCain or Mr Obama to abstain from a debate.
Hi Pink,
Honestly, I do not think that we as a nation are raising our children properly any more.
————————————————————————————–
I just saw that story. You are correct. Just be glad that he did not kill them.
@ Blake
That’s one of the bigger problems I have with how the Bush administration has been running things. They have thrown antitrust principles right out the window in favor of megamergers and corporate profit. Standard Oil is being allowed to re-form, Ma Bell is being allowed to re-form, companies are being allowed to merge that would create blatant monopolies (XM/Sirius), and so on. Why break companies up if you’re just going to allow the parts to re-merge? Heck, why even have antitrust laws in the first place if you’re not going to enforce them?
If this, along with the bailout package, doesn’t make it exceedingly clear that the Bush administration favors corporations and the wealthy over the little guy, then I don’t know what does.
Neslon
Apparently the deal is done, McCain shall have to go to the debate tomorrow night.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article4827627.ece
@bailout:
CNN and the IHT report that House Republicans aren’t necessarily on board yet. About twenty-four hours to go…
Hi Will.
who would the WHYSers like to see in a debate?
Ronald Reagan and McCain or Obama or both
The bail out is another joke in the awesome Bush administration. I can’t believe the details are private and we are looking at Paulson to help solve the problem when he claimed the financial world was solid in March 2008. I wanna know what crack pipe he was smoking. Sounds like some shady business to me, not that that is unlike what has been going on for a while. After all, why would we want to try something innovative, when the same thing always leads to tragic results? At least we know what to expect. Wahoo!
Sounds like some shady business to me, not that that is unlike what has been going on for a while.
Paulson is the former CEO of Goldman Sachs (among other things, a major Lehman Bros. competitor)…just fyi.
@ Kelsie …
It was George Bush snr oops I meant John McCain that wants to chicken out.
Kelsie ~
Yup, I knew that too. Again, one shadier thing to add to Paulson’s repertoire.
@Nelson:
If House Reps. want to hold out, I assume the Senate can go ahead and press forward–there’s no need for a McCain absence–especially one that would perhaps suspiciously benefit Sarah Palin in her forthcoming debate with Joe Biden.
@Congress:
Congress will recess, not “rise.” Parliament rises. Thanks to PortlandMike for uncrossing my vocabularic wires 😉 .
@ Thea
You are right. People don’t want to spend time on raising their kids. I guess they just want them to raise themselves.
Maybe we should start a list of things we have learned from the Bush Administration. Here is a very short list but feel free to add:
How to use fear
How to get more executive power
How to go to war using lies
How to stay the course
How to ignore the needs & tragedies in our own country
How to hire all your buddies
How to make lots of money for your buddies
How to give eloquent speeches & use wonderful analogies
jennifer,
sometimes you just get lucky…….
well the moose-jerky remark, stems from the fact that I had some beef-jerky for lunch. actaully quality beef jerky that was……
anyway, biden and his femenin side is just too cute, as well…….
jess,
yes, although i could do with some kryptonite right now. i was told that my research money is going to run out x-mas and that is it, unless i find a golden egg or something.
happy x-mas…..
venessa,
you are joking about the eloquent speeches, right.
bush does not know how to pronounce that word.
Jens ~
I certainly hope you know that was sarcasm! I do get a good chuckle out of his well-expressed parallels…hehehee!
Sorry to hear your funding is running out!
@Venessa
Courtesy UKTV:
http://uktv.co.uk/dave/stepbystep/aid/603718
Let’s see if anything on your list qualifies him for this rather select group of future prospects…
I saw a term used on TV last night that really ticked me off — “foreclosure victims”.
If you took out a mortgage you could not afford, that is YOUR fault. You are not a victim. It is not my fault as a taxpayer that you signed the paperwork, even if it is a loan the bank shouldn’t have offered you in the first place. I should not be forced to cough up thousands of dollars (which is what it works out to per person) to prop up businesses that are too greedy to know when to say “No” to a potential borrower.
Anyone interested – the Palin Press conference Whole transcript is on my blog 🙂
Just click my name. 😉
Election Finances: This article says that this year’s American presidential election, would cross the one billion dollar mark. That exceeds the GDP of 30 countries.
The Billion Dollar Election from BBC
venessa,
i do thank bush and his iraq war for the decreasing funding in research. it is not as we the nation need to stay at the forefront of technology and science. i am sure we will be doing exceedingly well once south korea, china, and russia have over taken us. maybe, but only maybe europe will share some of it’s knoweladge with the usa.
but uhhh, who cares we have won in iraq. exactly what we will win if at all, nobody has explained to me.
it just came to me, yes we won an ast 11 trillion over all deficit. Mr Bush i sincerely hope it was worth it.
venessa,
how to ruin a once great country and still wake away as a billionair
how to destroy science
how to ignor the poeple who gave their lives and health to this country
how to make sure that millions go bankrupt because of health bills.
how to sell the usa to china and saudi arabia.
more cheerfull ones, because i am in a really happy place right now…….
@ Nelson
Billion dollar election — doesn’t that just scream “plutocracy”?
@Palin:
Pastor blessed Palin to protect her from witchcraft.
Will ~
I read the transcript. I think I would have spewed milk through my nose if I had been drinking any….
Jens ~ those are certainly good lessons we have learned. rightly so you should be upset. So should a lot of people. Right now I am thankful I have a secure position (so I think) but that could always change. I do work for a very very large corporation…
will,
if there is a god he will not allow this dimwit to get even close to the presidents position……but then there is free will……
she clearly uses english words but the sequence of words is just beyond comprehention
A billion dollars for the election? Is it really necessary for that much to be raised. For some reason I think not.
Venessa
How to lose an election and still be president
@ jamily5 September 25, 2008 at 2:25 pm
“@Tom,
I think that Michael’s proposal has merritt, … The fact is thyunemployed and more are not valued as comparable workers. when I go to volunteer, I am scrutinized and asked all sorts of questions: most of which are not relevant. People are much more comfortable seeing the disabled as recipients of “help” and not givers. They don’t understand the concept of a reciprocal community and are quite uncomfortable when a disabled person offers their assistance – especially when it is to them, personally.”
Thanks for that reply. I had never considered that and I admit that I am one who has always considered “the disabled as recipients of “help” and not givers”. Frankly I am stunned. I’m glad I asked you about it, you just taught me something and changed my mind.
kelsie,
the republicans have all the aliens from roswell in cheneys fridge on his ranch. that is how they conjure up the power to be able to sell horse manour as gold to the average american….it’s shocking
Hey, I know why McCain picked Palin….God talks to her just like he talks to Bush!
Venessa
I listened to a great radio doc on BBC radio 4 last year which stated the reason the politician raise that amount of money is not for the campaign finance but to simply show they can raise the money. The logic is the more money you raise the more popular you appear, otherwise why would you have been given the money?
Well said Robert….didn’t he do it twice?
Re: foreclosure victims
I agree Roy.
However, lending rules were changed in 1999 in order, “they” told us, “to get more Americans into houses.” The qualifications required to borrow, or re-finance, in order to GET MONEY, out of “equity” were relaxed.
Lenders made great money selling loans in this wide open market. Vast amounts of money were loaned, and all these mortgages were bought and paid for by the biggest banks. But, it turned out that those mortgages are worth no where near what the banks paid for them, and now they are out of money, and have no money to loan out now.
So, not only were individuals responsible for accepting ridiculous loans and mortgages, but the biggest banks in the world that spent years lobbying to get the lending rules changed, have gone bust because of deregulation.
A momentary interlude…
More on Mrs Palin
Is this the end of US capitalism?
The Chinese in their first space walk.
Australia is ready for banking crisis.
venessa,
i do work for a subsidery of a very large cooperation…..
@ jamily5 and Shirley
You might be interested in this article.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/conditions/babies2.shtml
Unfortunately, I am in school again, which means a plethora of readings. I am actually reading right now (except for this short break, of course). I came across this quote:
Often one person’s religion is another one’s superstition. Many persons, in nearly all times, have held, seriously or half-seriously, irrational beliefs concerning methods of warding off ill or bringing of good, foretelling the future, and healing of preventing sickness or accident”
Thoughts? comments?
Quote is from http://zcbu.uoregon.edu/2003/glossary/superstition.html
@ Robert/Venessa, (Billion dollar election.) Probably the winner would have to recoup his “investments” and pay off a few debts while the loser will lick his wounds hands on the cheek.
Palin
Thanks for the comments. I was about to re-read it for the fourth time to try and make sense out of it. Glad that I wasn’t missing something.
@Venessa,
Here’s another reason McCain choose Palin. Palin was prayed into office as Governor by a witch hunter. She is on video praising this man’s work. He’s paying her church a visit this week in Alaska.
http://mudflats.wordpress.com/2008/09/19/witch-hunter-that-prayed-palin-into-office-is-coming-back-to-wasilla/
So then what happens to the money when the campaign is over? It doesn’t make sense…..
Venessa
I seem to remember that he did legitimately win the second time.
At least he went through a charade of being elected. Our Gordon Brown didn’t have to go through such a formality. At least it spares the British electorate of the embarrassing confession of having chosen him.
kelsie,
they must show the entire tape, how to get exposed to world leaders.
Palin “dear pakistani prime-minister you can fell my boobs, they are real”.
holy crap that concersation is just embarresing
JMc: “Sarah, just remember that…..um…when you answer…hehehehe…um…don’t answer hehehe*thumbs uop”
SP: “What do you mean John shouldn’t I say something like we need the youth to be all apart, I mean, a part of the united unity of this great nations I saw Russia from my back yard?”
JMc: “Yes, um….Putin…Russia…um *Thumbs up”
SP: “John because you are a POW do you know what what I think I think that you do put your thumbs up a lot and the youth of this great land
Alaskunited America is great but you do do that a lot is is some form of exercise or something to unity united America?”JMc: ” Um Sarah….– Um, Well it means I am getting ready to use my Blackberry — Um… hehehehe….did you know I invented the Blackberry….not true but what has Obama invented?”
SP: “Well John you know I don’t know what he has but he is our opponent but we really should unite behind Bush and what Bush says because Bush is right and he did invent a war”
JMc [Red with anger and about to blow a gasket] “DON’T MENTION BUSH NEAR ME HE IS NOT LIKE ME OR EVER WILL BE LIKE ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”
O/B 08 😀 ❓
@ jamily5 September 25, 2008 at 2:32 pm
“My computer ate half of my post, so I am posting again. ,,,sign me up for the peace corps””
Does the military accept blind people? It seems to me that there were at least a few jobs that blind people could do in the military, like the reading and typing that you’re doing here, and the military sure likes keeping paperwork. Debriefing after missions, supply, counseling, heck the military has an extensive family support system which is basically social work if i understand correctly.
I’m not advocating that you would join up, just that I can see where the military and blind people could both benefit from each other.
@Will:
LOL!!
Julie ~
People really buy into that witch crap?!? Amazing…The way Palin worships you would think she would have put a scarlet letter on her daughter Bristol…..Oh wait, their exempt from judgement.
@Venessa,
He’s a bag of tricks and so is Palin. I would have thought this was bunch of baloney had I A) not seen it written about in Chrisitan Science Monitor, B) the Anchorage newspaper, and C) saw the video of her on the stage at her church praising the guy. She’s a nut job.
julie p,
i think the pols are indicating that maybe but only maybe some are waking up and are smelling the coffee…
Venessa
Although all the money is not strictly needed to run the campaign it can be used at an alarming rate on non productive activities.
Things like having a large group of advisers follow you around the country instead of basing them in one place and using this smart little device known as a cell phone.
Or champagne receptions for contributors with speeches like “thanks for your money which paid for this booze. Instead of buying the bottle yourself and drinking it with friends, you now have to listen to me whittle on for the next hour”
etc etc.
I’m sure on a smaller budget they would be just as effective at the front line and be a leaner campaign.
Re: billion dollar election
A billion dollars… a drop in the bucket. That’s around $3.15 for every man woman and child.
Contributions to candidates and political parties has been fundamental to the formation of America as a bastion of democracy. Just the making of the rules for elections is an amazing clash of law and politics.
Spending your money on your favorite candidate, or lobbyist is freedom of speech.
I think the amount of money is appalling and definitely unnecessary. The election needs to be about debate, not throwing parties for the peeps that gave you the cash.
Julie & Jens ~
One can hope that people will see through her but you have a lot of people scared of Obama’s religion….This one takes the cake though. Hunting down witches has got to be a really cool business that requires some special talents….
@ the Palin Press conference Whole transcript on Will´s blog
Sincerely, I cannot believe how a person which talks like that in a press conference could be the candidate for VP in the U.S.
She should be more elocuent, don´t you think?
Correct me if I am wrong, English is not my first language.
@Jens
Sorry for your current situation at work 😦 That sucks!! (Can I say that???)
“She should be more elocuent, don´t you think?”
You would think so…but then again, there’s Mr Bush…
On this topic of political eloquence, does anyone think that debating on your feet (a la Prime Minister’s Question Time) would improve eloquence (and maybe, just maybe, substantive discourse) in American politicians? Sen Dick Durbin (D-Illinois) says the old debating spirit of “the world’s greatest deliberative body” is a dying art…
Luz Ma ~
Palin’s eloquence doesn’t matter….Look at the encumbant.
@Venessa,
There has been so many e-mails going around for a very long time about Obama that are nothing but urban legends that, for some, have become fact. I get them almost every day in my inbox. Deep sigh. And some of them are coming from people with Ph.D.s. I have seen some of the urban legends about him posted on these blogs posted as fact from people who written about their education. All anyone has to do is go to factcheck.org or snopes and see the debunked myths, but they are going around like facts. It’s scary.
@ Luz ma, it’s eloquent
@Vennessa
It seems that what counts is money 😦 Not only in your country…
Venessa~
“I think the amount of money is appalling and definitely unnecessary. The election needs to be about debate, not throwing parties for the peeps that gave you the cash.”
……………………..
Perhaps we should form a political group, and try to get laws passed to that effect? First we will have to hire a pro bono lawyer?
@Nelson
Ups, thanks! I am not using the word corrector… apologies for my bad English 😉
Hi Jennifer,
Thanks for that link.
And, here is another:
http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml08/08381.html
Billon dollar election: Probably the credit crunch did not affect the fund raising part of the Campaign trail economy. (I stand corrected) This is America’s first billion dollar presidential election in the year of global financial mayhem. Pretty impressive.
Kelsie
Although parts of PMQ’s are staged (the rough outline of questions is submitted before hand so the PM has the data to answer the question) the spontinaity and ad libs involved makes it one of the things I miss most since leaving the UK.
I found it to be one of the most entertaining shows on TV.
@ Luz ma, you are welcome. We all learn everyday.
@Jennifer,
That link discusses SIDS:
some cribs are being recalled:
Chalk one up for the family bed.
Luz Ma ~ Don’t worry about your spelling, I spelled incumbent wrong!
Mike ~ Unfortunately money rules all and we would be crushed so fast.
Thanks Tom,
That is the difference between you and most, though.
I will arrive to volunteer and they still don’t see the strengths.
Along those lines: I have also always advocated for those people who are receiving assistance and who are not
either working or taking care of children, to volunteer if they can’t find a job. or… … UNTIL they find a job.
No, Tom, the military does not accept blind people in any job, whatsoever.
Maybe, if they weren’t blind when they went in, but they will not accept a blind person because that blind person has to go through basic training and they don’t want to give that blind person a gun… … understandably.
@Robert:
I’ve been working my way through the Downing Street podcast–I’m still a relative newcomer to U.K. politics–but I think PMQ, if the other Americans will please excuse me, really capture the full, boisterous spirit of democracy in a way the “most recognizable democratic symbol”–the U.S. Congress–doesn’t. I don’t know how significant (in the long run) each PMQ is, but what strikes me is the ambience of openness and a willingness to get down to it and debate the people’s business. I wish the Senate were a more truly deliberative body…
Jamily ~
I’ve seen guns in worse hands than a blind person!
anyway folks,
i’m off to find a substance containing EtOH and mix it with some sweetened EtOH and add some olives to it……
@ jamily5
For some reason the link did not work. 😦
on this cheerful note goodnight and see you tomorrow…
“It’s very important when you consider even national security issues with Russia as Putin rears his head and comes into the air space of the United States of America, where — where do they go? It’s Alaska. It’s just right over the border. It is — from Alaska that we send those out to make sure that an eye is being kept on this very powerful nation, Russia, because they are right there. They are right next to … to our state,” she said.
@ APPLE BOBBING:
That is a good idea!
@SINCE OCTOBER IS COMING, HALLOWEEN IS COMING!
We should have a holiday dress-up…
@THE BAN OF CHINESE ITEMS TO E.U.
It is a good idea, i hope that the government in Beijing, will have
a chance to do a massive reform on the food quality in the country!
Dennis
Kelsie
An single PMQ is not that important really, but the reputations of senior politicians is formed in part by their debating performance at the dispatch box. Tony Blair was good when he stood up there. Currently the best speakers seem to be David Cameron (Tory leader), and Vince Cable (lib dem) . Gordon Brown sounds so boring and repetitive whilst answering, there seems no drive behind the voice. This in part has gone into his image of being a little cold and uncaring which is harming his ability to connect with voters.
@ Will Rhodes September 25, 2008 at 7:48 pm
“Just something to ponder – who would the WHYSers like to see in a debate?
It can be any historical or current political figure or a combination of both.”
Jesus versus that great Canadian guru, the Walleye Lama.
@Robert:
Mr Cameron seems like a fast talker and never quite runs out of clever turns of phrase. I’m not familiar with Mr Cable–the couple of times Nick Clegg has spoken (such as the last PMQ), he seems uninspiring (not commenting on his party’s platform, of course). I remember catching bits of Mr Blair on CSPAN–he held up rather well against Mr Cameron…
Well, I do know some blind people that do have guns, but they collect them, like their father did.
I don’t know, maybe they use them at a range, but who knows.
And, honestly, my shooting would be worse than my link posting.. … which is well, just ask Jennifer.(hahaha)
Sorry, Jennifer, the basics was just that cribs were being recalled because children were sufficating and strangling in them.
Hence, the family bed comment.
Star Treks ‘Q” versus Palin.
Ha ha ha, choke, gasp, … erp!
@ Tom D Ford:
Infinite Power vs. Infinite Incompetence…that would be quite amazing.
@all:
This seems interesting
Vince Cable is the liberal democrats deputy leader and stood in during the leader contest after Ming Cambell quit. He was a strong performer during PMQ, he’s most famous line against Gordon Brown being a joke saying the Brown had made a
“remarkable transformation in the last few weeks from Stalin to Mr Bean, creating chaos out of order rather than order out of chaos”
(For those who don’t know, Mr Bean is a British slapstick comedy character)
@Robert
Sounds like Mr Clegg’s denunciation of the Labour Party, calling it “Shaun of the Dead meets I’m Sorry, I Haven’t a Clue.”
re: debate:
Gee, I’d like to see Obama and McCain with Biden and Palin a close second. What a concept… to actually have the candidates actually show up for their debates.
Seriously, Ben Franklin vs. Churchill. I think that would be a great debate.
@ Kelsie in Houston September 25, 2008 at 9:08 pm
“…what’s on your collective minds?”
We Borg? Resistance is futile, of course!
Pakistan becoming increasingly more heated vis-á-vis the United States…
Tubal Ligations for the Poor, says one Louisiana lawmaker.
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/politics/2008/09/25/tubal.ligations.for.poor.cnn
Debates:
Darwin vs. Creationism
Freud vs. Lacan
Jane Austen vs. Virginia Woolf
Sorry Steve, but another fictional character….. Ted Baxter vs. Bill O’Reilly. Two blowhards going at it.
“Resistance is NOT futile.”
It will however impoverish you and severely limit your social opportunities. When it all come down to it the kids who managed to suck up to everybody in Junior HIgh and fit in with the popular cliques are still running everything.
It never mattered that those kids weren’t the brightest thinkers or in any way compassionate because they could always muster a crowd of idiots to shout down the smart kid or the emo kid who wanted to do things in a fair and right way.
This is what mass produced education has led us to. A kleptocracy of idiots supported by other idiots.
@ jamily5 September 25, 2008 at 11:07 pm
On Military basic training.
It seems to me that the military ought to make itself “handicap accessible”. There are many jobs that could be done by people who don’t train with guns, in the Pentagon, the dispersed Command Centers, and bases in the US.
And the problems they are having with recruiting just makes it obvious to me that they need to make accommodations for many forms of handicap.
They’re missing out on a fairly large pool of talent, I’d say.
I gotta admit, the world of the handicapped is foreign to me, I really have no idea of the range of possibilities of who can do what, what their real limits are, and what their real limits are not..
@Tubal Ligations for the Poor
I couldn´t watch the video -because I am in a crappy computer- but I think is not a bad idea.
Compelling to undergo the procedure is not acceptable, but giving incentives or promoting the practice it is ok for me. I think they should focus in women that already have children.
When I was working in poor urban communities I adviced women to use contraceptive methods or undergo tubal ligation. Here in Mexico, tubal ligations and vasectomies are two of the few medical procedures that are completely free and easily available for everyone (over 18 years old). It is a way to reduce population growth, specially among the poor, since they have the highest rate of children per family (the national average is 2.5, the average in those below the poverty line is 6).
@ Kelsie in Houston
The Australians have a raucous debate tradition also.
@Tom D Ford:
Does the Australian Parliament have something like PMQ? I don’t know very much at all about Australian politics…
My source at WaMu just told me the feds took them over. He said the male employees are panicking because a fed takeover means no severance, and the female employees are talking about going shopping…….. err..
But anyways, the largest S&L in the US has now failed.
Steve:
Just now? Do any of the news agencies have it?
@ Pangolin-California September 26, 2008 at 12:23 am
I know. I was just joking.
“This is what mass produced education has led us to. A kleptocracy of idiots supported by other idiots”
At least public education is an attempt to give everyone a chance. I think of the lack of education in some places and the lack of education for women in some areas and I am appalled.
And really, the Kleptocrats have their own privately owned schools like Yale and the rest of the Ivy League.
@ kelsie
Don’t think so. He said JPM had taken their accounts, then said the feds took them over. seen nothing on the news.
@WaMu:
Marketwatch has a report on JP Morgan and WaMu…
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/jp-morgan-buy-wamus-operations/story.aspx?guid={1590B936-7E24-491B-A7CA-604E8CF96593}
@ Kelsie in Houston September 26, 2008 at 12:36 am
Aussies PMQ.
I don’t really know. I remember watching a debate but I don’t recall if the PM was involved.
I’d bet they would though, having been a British colony. Probably Canada also. And I wonder about India.
Bob will come along any minute and clear it all up, I suppose.
RE “”If you don’t have a degree it is difficult to progress in most careers and your chances of earning above minimum wage are limited.””
———- Mr. Robert, you have much to learn.
Both Michael Dell and Bill Gates barely lasted 2 years of college, if that. Some of the most intelligent, most creative people I’ve met didn’t have degrees. My lovely ex-wife graduated with a degree in geography, yet I knew more about the world and could read a map much better in spite of taking no geography courses.
In fact, I used to have to train people who did have degrees in geography, often to no avail for the essential geographic requirements of the job I was responsible for.
This notion of people having higher education has gotten way out of hand as far as elitism and classism goes. Many are educated idiots, and most are merely average intelligence. Nothing wrong with that, but if corporations want to hire average people work and idiots to run the thing, that might better explain the financial mess the US is in.
Some of the most acclaimed musicians in the world either can’t read music or never took any college music courses. The Wright brothers, Thomas Edison, the list of undereducated genii is endless.
Steve,
Please, do not lump all of the women together by saying all they were talking about was going shopping – I don’t care what your “source” told you. That is pure sexism.
BTW, my local news station just made the announcement that JPM has taken over WAMU – no link yet though.
JPM will be making an announcement in 10 mins I believe If its 9.15 ET it will be in an hour and so – they have bought the banking side and not the mortgage side.
@WaMu
On CNN
RE “”There has been so many e-mails going around for a very long time about Obama that are nothing but urban legends””
————————————————————————————————————-
——– A WHYS moderator posted a bogus Palin utube link of her husband and child and many bloggers made smarmy comments about the Palin family based on the video.
Finally an admission of fraud came days after I had fingered it, but only when the video maker admitted it was a fake.
I’ve heard the rumors about Obama, and heard them about McCain and heard them talked as if factual on this blog.
@Amy,
I have wondered where Steve got his MCP training?
How about we take the money for the program and invest it in Drill Here Drill Now and pay less.
It is a multi-step process.
1) Apply for permission to drill here now.
2) Get permission months to years later.
3) Begin exploration months to years later.
4) Find (or not) oil months to years after that.
5) Begin drilling.
6) Get oil online after some more years.
7) As oil enters system and reduces dependency on foreign oil, Saudi Arabia et al reduce output, thus causing the prices to rise as high as Saudi Arabia et al want.
In the end, we are still screwed; and we will have knocked some more marine animals deaf or killed them from brain hemorrhaging, poked another hole in earth, and made traffic to and from the region so that we can dump more waste on the waters.
Yup. Real fine plan there, McCain. *rolling eyes*
It might be painful, but we really need to shove ourselves into the renewable energy age. We have the human resources, the manufacturing ability, and the sun/wind/geo-warmth/etc. We can obviously get purely electric cars out there with a couple of blinks of the eyes: Windmills are going up all over the country, solar energy is being used not only to power homes but to put energy back on the grid; and Chevrolet is releasing its electric car in 2010. So why don’t we all stop whining and start doing what is right for the planet and, ultimately, our own greedy, whiny selves?
Number of words: 251
RE “”So now, McCain has no excuse to avoid the debate…. or what will he come up with next. Financial crisis: Republicans and Democrats agree £380 billion bail-out deal “”
———————————————————————————————————–
————- All I’ve heard is that an agreement “in principle” has been reached.
Since the parties are generally dishonest and acrimonious towards each other, it means over 500 votes have to be lined up AFTER the financial deal is finalized, NOT a done deal.
This news blurb ranks up there with the media calling the election for Gore, then withdrawing the claim an hour later, then calling for Bush, causing Gore to concede, and then calling that the election was too close to call, causing Gore to renege his concession, causing a constitutional crisis.
66 jamily5 September 25, 2008 at 9:36 pm
Do you think that the Nebraska law is a good one?
After all, some might say that it supports parental neglect by allowing parents to abandon their children with no repercussions. Think of the long term psychological effects on the children. This is horrible.
Are we so sure that the children are better off with the kind of parents who would drop them off and relinquish parental rights over them? There has to be a graduated system that is better equipped to deal with the abandonment of older children. But that cannot be the end-all solution. We as a society have to start lending more financial, social, material, and emotional support to families! How on earth can we hypocritically preach “right to life” and “culture of life” when we are slowly starving family life to death with our devil-may-care attitude towards people who cannot make it on two incomes and who do not have a social network in the area in which they live? It is hypocritial, because that is the hallmark of the culture of death!
69 Thea Winter – Indianapolis IN, USA September 25, 2008 at 9:41 pm
Just be glad that he did not kill them.
Is there a difference between physical killing and emotional slaughter?
Number of words: 209
119 portlandmike September 25, 2008 at 10:48 pm
A billion dollars… a drop in the bucket. That’s around $3.15 for every man woman and child.
With that $10, I could feed my family for almost a week. It would take some stretching and some adjusting to things that we have not eaten before, but I could make it work. Here is a thought: split the billion dollars among those below the poverty line and see how it spreads. Or pour it into one of those self-reproducing accounts to make grants for needy college students. The United Nations once estimated that it cold use the wealth of the world’s richest people to fund initiatives that would benefit the world’s poor, and the world’s richest would still be rich. When rich people sit on exorbitant amounts of money, it does not flow through economic systems. it does not oil the gears of social welfare programmes. It just sits there adding zeros to someone’s last name.
Number of words: 158
@ Pink September 26, 2008 at 1:31 am
“Is there a difference between physical killing and emotional slaughter?”
I’ve heard child abuse called “soul murder”.
@Tom:
I wonder how long Parliament has had PMQ? Hopefully Bob will appear to provide some answers soon…
@Shirley
“Is there a difference between physical killing and emotional slaughter?”
That is a good question! Over the years, I have often thought that physical death is better.
But then there are some people who rise above the abuse and the struggle all seems worth it, somehow.
As much as I carry on about how Muslims do not tolerate extremism in our communities as thought in the West, I was still surprised when I read this article. Apparently, some communities in the Indo-Pak region have a zero-tolerance policy.
The Seriously Injured by Neelabh Mishra
When the maulvi expounded his radical version of Islamic jehad, he was thrashed. [I assume that the author meant verbally thrashed.] [I]n rural Rajasthan, I have myself seen signposts prohibiting entry to fundamentalist preachers from outside the area at quite a few mosques. The author also discussed the sentiment of denial among the Muslims there: No Muslim would dare do such a deed in the holy month of Ramzan.
@ Kelsie in Houston September 26, 2008 at 1:42 am
How long?
I don’t know.
I like the idea that the head of the Executive has to present and defend his ideas before a public legislative body. It sure makes Cheneys’ secrecy and behind the scenes decision making look suspicious.
Just imagine the Bush comedy trying to do the same, now that would pull some viewer numbers.
@Tom:
I think we could definitely stand for something like PMQ, and yes, YES–it is absolutely a good thing that the Government should have to stand before the opposition, the people’s house, and arguably the nation itself, and defend and/or explicate its policies. I would LOVE for us to get something along those lines…
@ selena in Canada September 26, 2008 at 1:44 am
“But then there are some people who rise above the abuse and the struggle all seems worth it, somehow.”
Yahbut that’s not a justification to abuse all kinder.
@ Kelsie in Houston September 26, 2008 at 2:00 am
Yes. The leader would have to understand and be able to articulate his policies and that would give me more confidence that he/she knows what they’re doing even if I oppose everything they stand for. I hate the idea that Bush is just dumber than a duck and Cheney runs him from behind the curtains, like the Wizard in the Wizard of Oz.
Stand and Deliver!
Re: billion dollar election
Shirley~
“Here is a thought: split the billion dollars among those below the poverty line and see how it spreads.”
………………………….
As I suggested to Venessa perhaps you ought to work get some legislation passed about your ideas on how other people spend their money?
I happily sent small contributions to Ron Paul, and then later Obama. It is the American way… messy and flawed, far from perfect. Political donations fall under the rubric of freedom of speech.
Bryan the Blogger vs. Justin Webb or Alan Johnston.
HAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHHA HAHAHAHAH HAHAHHAHAHAHAHHHHHAAAA
No seriously – and I am laughing while watching this HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!
The Senate Republicans WANT to sort out the 700Bn bail out with—-
are you waiting?
Less, YES LESS regulation! HAHAHAHAHAHA
With
A tax cut for businesses to buy the bad debt! LOLOLOLOL Seriously! They want to give a 700 Bn tax cut to business LOLOL
@ Portlandmike
It’s not the $3.15 that my four year old son donated that worries me. (I know, I know…we’re in Australia…but just go with me for a moment!)
He’s unlikely to turn up at the White House door asking for tax exempt lollypops.
What does worry me are the million dollar donations from big business. Somehow I think they MIGHT turn up at the White House and they probably won’t want tax breaks on candy. Of course, given the present financial crisis it’s entirely possible that the CEOs involved gave away shareholders’ money without any thought of a return on the investment, but….
@ Steve
I suppose you know that all women in the world love shopping. Wasn’t that a little uncalled for?
Re: Billion Dollar Election/McCain Campaign Suspension
With the time difference we get Letterman on a different day to the USA, but on the episode I saw last night, the “Top 10 List” was things you want to ask the McCain campaign team:
Number 10 was: “I just donated money to help support the campaign today. Where do I apply for my refund?”
Dunno. Maybe he’ll just offer rain checks!
(For my info, how much play has the phone call from Obama to McCain BEFORE McC’s big announcement been getting in the States? The Aussie media certainly find it significant!)
@ Roberto
RE “”There has been so many e-mails going around for a very long time about Obama that are nothing but urban legends””
A WHYS moderator posted a bogus Palin utube link of her husband and child and many bloggers made smarmy comments about the Palin family based on the video.
Finally an admission of fraud came days after I had fingered it, but only when the video maker admitted it was a fake.
I’ve heard the rumors about Obama, and heard them about McCain and heard them talked as if factual on this blog.
————————————————————————————————————-
Thank for pointing out that this happens to BOTH McCain and Obama! Obama isn’t a victim and lone target! I have seen a few videos taking cheap shots at Palin. Where are the videos against Biden?
@ Selena in Canada
What is MCP training?
@Will:
I’m trying very hard to be surprised by that demand…and it’s not working.
Kelsie
They [Senate Republicans] say that is the only way they will go because it’s the free market way.
erm…………hold on a second
Bob –
It got very little barring that it came out that Obama called first and that McCain tried to claim the credit for the call.
@Will:
Love that doublethink.
@ Will Rhodes September 26, 2008 at 2:31 am
Deregulation and tax cuts for the wealthy, now that’s what got us into the mess we’re in and our mess is messing up your country and other countries around the financial whirled.
Our Conservative Republicans have done far more damage to the United States than Osama Bin Laden ever dreamed of, and they are a threat to every other civilized person and country in the world.
I’m mad as hell and I’m going to keep on taking it!
Thea winter,
The problem is
1) oil is a commodity where every drop is dumped into a world market. Drilling will not reduce the price of gasoline. It will only stand to make oil companies richer. There are no completely “American” gas chain.
2) There are other interest outside of the US economy who now more then ever want to make sure oil prices stay at the highest possible point on the demand curve, AKA the “equilibrium price”. An better explination can be found here. Saudi Math
The problem with your fix is a) most people are far more in debt then the 50 or 60 bucks they save a month will help them. b) most people will just use the extra income to reason themselves into more debt, thus increasing the problem.
@ a differnt approach
When us normal thinking people are in trouble and staring down bankruptcy, we start to look at our spending habits and try to cut back. There are plenty of ways to do that in our economy, but they would take time.
First thing I would do is put the word out to all of our trading partners that we are going to start making them live up to the standards that we require here in the US. They can be expected to be audited for their ecological, wage compensation, and testing practices. This will scare many manufacturers into bringing jobs to make products back home. Illegal immigration should be cracked down upon. Wages that have forced most Americans to supplement their income with credit should no longer be accepted. Increased supply of labor into our labor pool has contributed to help keep them artificially low. Instead of 700 billion to the financial institutes, give an increase to any senior over 65 in their social security that is willing to stop working. This will open up more jobs to struggling families and increase the value of labor hours.
That is just a few things. There is so much fat in our economy that could be trimmed instead of just throwing money at the problem. But there is only 40 some days to elections and we need answer now.
The future of green architecture?
Is McCains “campaign suspension” kind of like Hillary’s? God I hope so.
@Dwight:
Haha! He throws up his hands, “Oh fine, let them eat Ron Paul!!”
@Tom D. Ford,
By extension, one could say that Osama did do this. The biggest issue in ’04 was Iraq. We got there because of the over reaction of the conservative congress and the fear of the american public od all things “muslim”. (let’s face at the time we invaded Iraq, North Korea had claimed they would turn the US into a “lake of fire”.)
Yes, Shirley, I understand your point,
But, well, no one is holding them accountable for their bad parenting. And, so they will continue.
Yes social supports need to be in place and so do economic and … … well, with the economic crisis, it is unlikely that anyone will focus on the unemployed, the minimum wagers and such when there are businesses to worry about.
About emotional abuse:
With emotional abuse (and I am not minimizing its effects) there is always a chance of recovery… there is none from death.
Also, in emotional abusive situations: it is very hard to prove and to examine the extents of its effects.
There is no way to measure it or categorize it.
Thwe need lots of more discussion and definitions.
@ Dwight,
Is McCains “campaign suspension” kind of like Hillary’s? God I hope so.
LOL– don’t get my feathers in a twist.
@ WaMu’s fed take over
So what now? The feds took over WAMU and the news is not making sense…. all reports are saying different things.
The feds only took half of WaMu–JP Morgan took the other half.
I think it’s just terrible, those scurrilous fake videos against Sarah Palin.
I just saw one that was purportedly an interview with Katie Couric, where she appeared to babble incoherently like a broken robot.
She said: “Our next door neihbors are foreign countries. They are in the state that I am executive of.”
And this: “It’s very important when you consider even national security issues with Russia as Putin where’s his head and comes into the airspace of the United States of America where do they go, it’s Alaska, it’s just right over the border. It is from Alaska that we send those out to make sure that an eye has been kept on this very powerful nation, Russia, because they are right there, they are right next to our state.”
I mean, you’d think these Democratic attack ads, or MoveOn or whoever, would at least be subtle. Who’s going to believe this kind of clumsy trick!
Bob in Queensland~
“What does worry me are the million dollar donations from big business. Somehow I think they MIGHT turn up at the White House and they probably won’t want tax breaks on candy.”
……………………………
It is how the American system works though, isn’t it? The AMA has mastered the system… and BigPharm! These days it is BigOil’s day, and BigArmy, and of course BigBanks!
A couple of stories on WaMu:
From Bloomberg
From USAToday
@ Bush
LOL. GOP are not listening to Bush, because he’s a lame duck. I have waited 8 long and miserable years for this. Chaney was on the Hill trying to strong arm GOPs into agreeing to the $700 billion “deal”. HAHAHAHAHAHA
@Shirley,
Thanks for the plant advise.
@ Tom,
I’m mad as hell and I’m going to keep on taking it!
GOD almighty, so am I. I’m thinking of signing up for the Marry-A-Canadian-Program.
@Jessica:
Come now, you can’t bolt for Canada–I’m supposed to be voting for you after that stellar campaign ad/news spot from a few weeks ago…
Jonathan~
Re Palin’s comments
It is amazing to see that written out! I think the dems can run that as an example of McCain’s executive skills until we can all repeat it verbatum!
@Jonathan
Re:Palin Videos
Sadly, I think many people take the bait and start believing them as truth…. pfft.
@ portlandmike
I KNOW! I actually was afraid Palin might be intelligent and have substantive to add. I am watching Anderson Cooper and other CNN conservatives can’t even articulate how shocked they are at the stupidity that came out of her mouth.
@Jennifer~
Ya really think?
@Jessica~
Me too, just now, what a hoot, OMG! I’ve NEVER seen Anderson Cooper at a loss for words before. The one Republican could only grumble about how they shouldn’t let her out again. “I wouldn’t put her in a lot more interviews like this.”
Jessica in NYC~
Palin’s answer reminds me of that Miss Teen USA South Carolina 2007, Lauren Caitlin Upton’s comments that we all laughed at for a week.
I knew it reminded me of something–thanks for the link portlandmike!
@ Jonathan
RE PALIN
LMAO! Seeing Anderson Cooper just stare at the camera, pause and then say you’ll want to stick around for the rest of the interview. Priceless.
“I’ll try to find ya some and bring ’em to ya.” Palin is giving Bush a run for his money.
@ PortlandMike
Can’t say I have watched much Miss Teen USA, but it sounds like I am missing out. LOL. That was [–] funny.
@credit crunch:
Take a lesson from the French?
““I’ll try to find ya some and bring ‘em to ya.”
Good to see she and McCain know each other so well…maybe this is what advisors told McCain right before he learned about Mrs Palin’s daughter’s pregnancy:
McCain: “I hear tell of Mrs Palin’s daughter being pregnant…is there anything to this?”
Advisors: “…we’ll try to find something out and bring it to you!”
McCain just announced he’ll be in Mississippi for the debate tomorrow!
*Whoo hoo, doin’ a little dance*
@ David Letterman making fun of McCain
LOL— Lesson, do not stand up David Letterman. McCain can’t chew gun… my stomach hurts from all the laughing.
@Pink~
“When rich people sit on … money, it does not flow through the economy…”
Oh, Pink. How often do I gotta say the same thing? Do you think rich people have huge piles of fluffy cash, that they romp around in, having jolly pillow fights with pillows stuffed with currency?
Nope. There’s only four things you can do with money: spend it, save it, invest it, or give it away. In each case, it flows through the economy. That’s what it does. That’s all it can do. You can’t avoid it.
It’s not an opinion. There isn’t an argument. It’s just how things work.
Jessica~
Lauren Caitlin Upton was a YouTube phenomena… 29 million hits. Cable news picked it up, and ran with it. Late night comics all kicked it around mercilessly. Here’s Jimmy Kimmel’s analysis of what she was saying.
Wait til Colbert gets a hold of Palin’s interview!
Come on Jonathan! Do you really expect us to believe that sun lounger of yours isn’t stuffed with hundred dollar bills?
Seriously, I’m mainly with you on this one. I certainly don’t have any objection to people earning as much money as they can….so long as it’s by “honest” means. I’m curious though as to where you might draw the line (if you draw one at all). Things like insider dealing are illegal already…do you agree with this sort of regulation and, if so, would you extend it to things like “short selling”?
@All:
Passing it over to PortlandMike…night, all!
@portlandmike,
I remember watching the Miss USA pageant in 1982. Miss Georgia was asked what she wanted to do with her life. Her response was classic. “I want to be the first aerobics instructor in space.” She said it with a straight face too! We laughed and laughed. It’s 26 years later and I still laugh!
…when what we REALLY need is an aerobics instructor in the White House!
@Bob,
So you want Palin as president then? 😉
I’ve just reminded myself of a true story….
Back in the 1980s I lived in a small village in rural Bedfordshire. Just down the road from me was an old manor house that had been converted into an old persons’ home.
Because this manor house was painted white, with typical British accuracy it was called “The White House”. My house, because it was a cottage on a farm opposite the church was called “Church Farm Cottage”. Anyway, I digress.
The sign outside the old persons’ home said “The White House–a retreat for the Elderly”. I thought nothing of this until President Reagan was elected. Sensing a photo op,a week or two later I walked down the road with my camera in hand only to find the sign had been changed. They told me that too many people were driving by with cameras!
First, a word of apology–well, acknowledgment: It seems I wasn’t the first to post the words of wisdom from America’s favorite vegetable, Sarah Palin. That’s what happens when I start at the end of the blog and go backward. Argh.
@Bob
Hundred dollar bills, comfort-wise, are way overrated. In stacks, they’re hard and lumpy. You have to crumple them individually, and even the it’s not so cushy as you’d imagine.
It’s always a treat to encounter an open mind. I’m catching up on my “Mad Men” episodes–there’s a marathon–but watch this space and I’ll produce a little outline of my thoughts on morality and money in the next hour or so; how’s that.
@Bob,
Good one!
A life sized pull string doll appearing to be Sara Palin gave an interview at the WTC site today……….
Peter Hamby of CNN asked: “Do you agree with the way the Bush administration has carried out the war on terror. Is there anything you would have done …
“I agree with the Bush administration that we take the fight to them,” Palin said. “We never again let them come onto our soil and try to destroy not only our democracy, but communities like the community of New York. Never again. So yes, I do agree with taking the fight to the terrorists and stopping them over there.”
Ken Vogel of Politico asked: “Do you think that our continued military presences in Iraq and Afghanistan have inflamed Islamic extremists?”
“I think our presence in Iraq and Afghanistan will lead to further security of our nation, again, because the mission is to take the fight over there,” Palin said. “Do not let them come over here and attempt again what they accomplished here, and that was some destruction. terrible destruction on that day. but since Sept 11. Americans uniting and rebuilding and committing to never letting that happen again.”
It’s amazing how it can repeat back part of the question along with the phrases on the recording. Almost like a real person talking.
Roberto
I know that some have progressed well without degrees. There will always be people whos genius shines through without needed a sheet of paper to back it up. I was just a lot harder in America to do compared with in Europe thats all.
Jessica in NYC September 25, 2008 at 9:32 pm
@ Kelsie,
“Hmm…sounds like “logic” in the same vein as, “I can see Alaska from my back porch, therefore I have foreign policy experience.”
Kelsie was so keen to trash Palin he got the quote wrong. What does “Alaska” have to do with US foreign policy?
@Pangolin
Freaky, creepy stuff, ain’t it. Just when we were finally getting rid of one of those.
@Bob
You around still?
Jennifer September 25, 2008 at 9:36 pm
@ Jens
P.S.
It would be interesting to know whom moderated your last post.
So much for not saying anything that would be a personal attack.
That’s why I’m keen on a “chat” page. If comments like that are not moderated then they can be sent to the chat page with a short note from the moderator to that effect. Most of the comments up to and including jens’ comment on September 25, 2008 at 9:29 pm add nothing to the debate. If people are driven to compete to see who can put the Republicans down with the ‘funniest’ comment, why not devote another thread to that and leave this one for serious Talking Points? Unless people imagine WHYS would introduce a topic on the WS with frivolous jokes and trivia mocking the Republicans.
Yo Jonathan. Yup…late afternoon here.
Dunno what the situation is now, but a few decades back the South African banks would not grant you a loan to buy a house if the monthly repayments were greater than a quarter of your salary.
On another thread, Selena said that people were no longer interested in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. If this thread is anything to go by, she might have a point.
Lubna on September 25, 2008 at 7:54 pm presented a link to some propaganda from the BBC’s post-Alan Johnston friend of the Palestinians, Aleem Maqbool.
And Pink on September 25, 2008 at 8:22 pm bolstered the propaganda.
Nobody else has commented on the issue – till now, that is.
Bob in Queensland September 26, 2008 at 2:27 am
I’m flattered that you think I could hold my own against such master propagandists as Alan Johnston and Justin Webb.
@Bob
In a nutshell, which may be the best container, here’s morality and money:
You just saw my four things to do with money: Save, spend, invest, give away. It’s all good.
Getting money is even easier–just two ways: Earn it or steal it. (Everything else is derivative, for instance you can inherit it from someone who earned it or stole it.) Stealing it is bad for society; earning it is good for society. It’s not a hard line to draw.
Convincing the government to give your company or industry tax breaks, import quotas, tarriffs, price protection, entry barriers, or other regulatory favors is the most common form of stealing.
Making or selling something, or providing a service, is earning. You agree with someone else to provide your goods, or your labor, for a price acceptable to both him/them and you. You both come away better off.
The line couldn’t be clearer. It’s just that simple.
Goodness no, of course short selling shouldn’t be illegal. Why would it be? It’s a voluntary transaction, morally no different from buying.
@ Jonathon~ It gets pretty weird when your presidential candidates (I consider the VP slot to be a presidential candidate) can’t pass a Turing test.
Still, perhaps we could teach her phenomenology before she explodes.
@Bryon~ I substituted insulting republicans with the most cryptic comment. I hope this helps.
@Bryan
Yup, that was pretty much the rule of thumb around here too, a quarter to a third, I don’t remember if it was before or after taxes. And a 20% down playment. Made things pretty discouraging in San Francisco, where a modest condo will set you back half a million or more. It seemed the only way for ordinary people to buy a house was to have bought it 20 years ago, or inherit it. Otherwise, we’d have been condemned to eternity in rental hell.
The looser rules enabled millions of people to buy houses who otherwise couldn’t have, most of whom are doing nicely in tax-advantaged, leveraged, appreciating houses. House values eventually stopped rising (in America, not in San Francisco). Some people borrowed more than they could afford. That, not “greedy CEO bonuses,” is where the money went.
@Pangolin
Ooooh, I don’t even have to follow that link to recognize the quote from one of my favorite “unknown cult” movies! “Dark Star” rocks! I have both versions. John Carpenter’s first film, the spacy, stoner, subversive, student science fiction movie.
But I thought the line was “Talk phenomenology to it.”
@Pangolin
Also, LOL at Turing test. Also, she ain’t MY candidate!
@ Bryan/Jonathan
Back in my original housebuying days, the UK rule was 3 times your gross annual income–which worked out to repayments somewhere between a quarter and a third of your take home income.
Frankly, this was a big enough commitment when I first bought a house…I hate to think what it would be like servicing a mortgage 5 or 6 times your annual income which is what it got to in the UK.
Any wonder there are problems?
Wow! More Dark Star fans.
My favourite quote has to be: “Intuition is no proof. What concrete evidence do you have that you exist? ”
I sometimes feel like using that line when somebody starts a reply in an On Air topic with something like “everyone knows” or “what you say means” when it doesn’t.
@Bob
You mean the price of the house was supposed to be 3 times your annual income? That’s amazing. Of course, hyperregulation has made housing so grotesquely expensive in the interim.
No wonder at all. Good thing there was all that liquidity and permissive financing.
@Bob
I’ve always had trouble with “We hold these truths to be self-evident,” myself. It just looks like “Because we SAY so.”
@ Jonathan
To be precise, it was the size of your mortgage that was supposed to be 3 times your income, not the total house price. That was back in the days when you were also required to have a down payment of at least 5% of the price, preferably 10%.
The same thing happened with prices in the UK, particularly in the southeast (i.e. London area). However, it can be debated whether mortgage terms had to get easier because prices went up…or if prices went up because it was too easy to get at mortgage.
Just to add….in a dual income family you could get a bigger mortgage…generally between 3.5 and 4 times the combined income….the mortage lenders knew of the habit many have of starting families after they buy a house!
@ Bob~ It’s your turn to feed the alien. I hope you have a good broom.
That has to be one of the more obscure of obscure movies. Possibly the best film ever to watch while stoned.
Very Jungian that three Dark Star fans find this little corner of the net. Yikes.
Hi Karnie
I am glad that we are discussing the $700 billion bailout package for US market, but when are we going to get to the bottom of the dilemma. Who dunn it, that’s what I want to know.
Republicans and Democrats are quite right in putting their foot down.
There is a connection between the credit crunch, bank foreclosures and Wall Street jitters. Money obviously is in short supply. The $10 trillion US budget deficit has something to do with it, but where is the human element? Who blundered? Everyone is blaming everyone else as the FBI investigation into corporate fraud proceeds, but there is something missing in the puzzle. Is President George Bush accountable? Did someone along the line take an unwarranted risk, hoping everything would fall back into place once it was over?
@Bryan:
Kelsie was so keen to trash Palin he got the quote wrong. What does “Alaska” have to do with US foreign policy?”
You’re right, I did get the quote wrong–but your question (“What does Alaska have to do with US foreign policy?”) is a fine question for Mrs Palin as well…thanks!
RE “”McCain just announced he’ll be in Mississippi for the debate tomorrow!””
————————————————————————————————————
———- Is this just another common, run of the mill rumour mongering site?
Or perhaps your news links have become as valid as US bank stocks. Three independent sources including NPR say McCain is thus far committed to the bailout crisis that was also reported as being a done deal on this site. The vote has not even been scheduled yet.
The talks have broken down miserably along partisan lines with reps submitting a new plan, dems submitting a new plan, and both dismissing the Paulson plan. The much publicized whitehouse planning meeting featuring Obama and McCain erupted in massive outbursts and accusations.
Great, they “agreed in principle” for some touchy feely good spin for the public and wall street. I can see not many here have figured out the 2008 presidential election may well be on it’s way as being completely irrelevant since not a single candidate can be found in this country that could guarantee to fix the crisis.
Simply put, this may prove to be a tipping point in a massive global upheaval. Hate to be the canary in the coal mine for deaf miners, but so be it.
Good news is the weather is brilliant here and it’s a gonna be a great day to watch the US circling the drain like a 3rd world backwater. I’ll be finishing up my porch project, do my workout, and fire up the grill and let all these expertly educated goofs take turns plugging the holes of the global Ponzi scheme they’ve created.
Oh, and check the latest internet rumour here.
@ Bryan
I don’t know. Alaska.
(Well, SOMEBODY had to use the old song lyrics so it might as well be me.)
@Bob
Yes, I was talking about UK. Prices went up for various reasons, one of them being easy money but only government can make such a grotesque imbalance between supply and demand.
Any comment on my “morality of money?”
@When is $700 billion not $700 billion?
If anyone cares, the proposed U.S. “bailout” will not actually cost the taxpayers anything close to $700 billion. That’s the total purchase price proposed for buying illiquid securities. Once the dust settles, the Treasury will sell them. Because they will be worth more than $0, the cost will be offset by the proceeds from the sale, to an extent not now known.
@ Housing prices
It’s my opinion that easy mortgage terms allowed for price increases because people were allowed multiple mortgages for dubious income streams. For a while I worked in property management and more than a few of my property owners were professionals who had purchased their third or fourth ‘second house’ based upon unrealistic or fraudulent income statements.
There seemed to be a certain class of people who were flipping houses they couldn’t possibly justify owning as rental properties otherwise. They would scream holy murder when major repairs were needed as if they were somehow my fault.
@ Jonathon~ San Francisco is now a museum piece and bears little resemblance to the place I lived in as a child. You’re rent includes admission to a sort of 24/7/365 cross between Burning Man and the Amy Tan operatic interpretation of Road Warrior; with a great food court. Anytime you could join the bridge and tunnel crowd.
Re: Morality and Money
I was right with you until the very last line. I’m less sure about some tactics like short selling. It smacks of dumping cockroaches into somebody else’s restaurant so the one you invested in looks better.
(A rubbish analogy I know but I’m in the midst of cooking dinner.)
As I say, on the rest of your post I’m with you but I have doubts about any form of manipulating a market rather than just participating…..if that distinction makes any sense.
@ Jonathan
Interesting point about 700 billion not being 700 billion.
However, on the flip side of the coin, to finance the initial purchases the USA will have to borrow money and according to at least one documentary I heard today, to find this much money they will have to borrow from a wide range of other countries. There’s certainly speculation that to get this much will require participation of not just the usual G8 suspects but right down to the G20.
This is bound to mean that, while servicing the debt, interest rates will be rather higher than the US is used to…and there may be some pretty big diplomatic pressures from some of the debt holders.
What I wonder is why these 700 billion $ aren’t used to secure the many mortgages that are about to go bad? To me this seems much smarter. People get to keep their homes, the mortgages aren’t “bad” anymore and the economy could recover from the bottom up. The way it seems to go now, the top will be rescued but the homeowners are still left out in the rain, ready to board up their house and move.
@ Morality of money? That’s like asking about the morality of screwdriver. I could propose that we need to seek another standard of money other than debt. There have been several musings on making the megawatt hour the standard unit of money but I’m not sure how the mechanics would work.
@ Akbar~ Everyone dun it. We all put away our financial calculators and decided that we could just borrow this packet of money today and worry about the payoff some other day. Then a whole group of greedy people convinced themselves that buying packages of overpriced loans chopped into little pieces was somehow safe.
I did it by servicing the houses that the speculators purchased and rented out at half of their monthly costs.
Guilty, all of us that took a nickel from this fraud machine.
Something I saw today: UN gets more money to fight poverty and enforce development, namely 275million $. Looks like fighting poverty comes at a bargain price, compared to rescuing wealth…
http://content.undp.org/go/newsroom/2008/september/espagne-norvge-royaume-uni-renforcent-leur-soutien-aux-omd.en
Hi Akbar.
It’s a long story, but briefly, mortgage risk was mispriced. About eight years ago, the prevailing interest rates were very low, and global cash needed higher returns than Treasury bonds could pay. Mortgage-backed bonds were rated AAA (the safest rating, same as T-bonds) and were insured. They paid a much higher yield so they were very popular and attracted hundreds of billions from all over the world.. Lending underwriting guidelines got more and more lax, bad loans were made, too much housing was built. Eventually house prices dropped, which has hardly ever happened in the post-world war II U.S. It turned out the risk of the mortgages underlying the bonds was much, much more than anyone had anticipated. The AAA rating turned out to be a joke. The insurance turned out to be worthless–if the insurance companies had to pay they’d be bankrupt overnight.
Suddenly all kinds of banks all over the world found themselves in serious trouble. Assets they had thought were safe turned out not to be safe. In fact, they can’t even price them; there is no market for them. They literally don’t know how much money they’ve lost, or how much they have. Consequently, they’re very reluctant to lend any money to anyone, which can bring down the whole global economy, which would not be any fun at all, no matter what you read here.
By buying some of these securities, the Treasury can inject some liquidity (cash) into the banking system and prevent a global depression. Eventually they will sell them again. Does that help?
@Katharina~
So that would be GOOD news for you, right? UN gets more money for fighting poverty blah blabla?
Is that sarcasm in your notation, or are you actually happy to see this?
Jonathan September 26, 2008 at 9:56 am,
Your point is well taken. People should try to spend within their means.
Pangolin-California September 26, 2008 at 9:44 am,
All I’m saying is it would be good to see the debate elevated above egoistic cleverness and gleeful trashing of candidates people don’t like.
Same applies to Kelsie in Houston on September 26, 2008 at 11:20 am.
Now you guys can all go chuckling and shaking your heads to the polls in November but what are you gong to do if your heroes lose?
@ Jonathan
I would call it a solid mixture of both. If you look at the article, the money comes from Norway, Spain and UK – Norway probably being the only one who’s not having financial troubles at the moment. My point is that a little while ago there was this big commitment from many different countries, including the US to set these millenium goals and end poverty by 2015. Nothing looks less likely at the moment than achieving this. So now the UN gets an additional 275mio$, while the US taxpayers will have to fork out 700bio$ to rescue (first and foremost) their economy and all the big and until recently very rich institutions that suddenly find themselves in a big pile of donkey droppings. Sure, by doing that the economies all around the World will be hopefully rescued as well, so thank you, Jonathan, for paying an average of 2.333$ to rescue the World economy. I’m sure the big companies on Wall Street that are being helped with this money in the first place will put it to the best use possible.
@Bob
Well, if you agree on all that except for the short selling, I’m gonna break out the champagne. Did you notice how I squeezed in most regulation as hidden subsidy for corporations? Good.
You may misunderstand short selling. It’s not any kind of “market manipulation.” It’s just the opposite of buying. If you think a stock price will go up, you buy it’ if you think it will go down, you sell it short. It’s very risky and I’ve seen a lot of money lost in this fashion. I wouldn’t do it. But there’s nothing wrong with it.
As for the bailout, recall that our economy generates $14 trillion every year. $700 billion isn’t all that much in that context. Borrowing from G-8 or G-20 countries is not really a relevant concept; there’s one big pool of capital in the world, and it loves US Treasury bonds more than anything else because they are rock-solid. We’re in a spot of trouble just now because the dollar has fallen, or more precisely the buyers of our bonds are, but that’s cyclical. The important thing is to keep generating wealth, even if Pangolin thinks it impossible.
On a cheerful note, this is a drop in the ocean compared to the upcoming funding gap for Social Security/Medicare. When we face the music on that, it will be measured in trillions.
@ Bryan
Spend within their means? That’s unAmerican!
That’s pretty much the summation of the problem here. People are so irresponsible when it comes to money. They don’t save, and people that do save are going to have worthless savings given all the debt will devalue the money that does exist. People spend spend spend. Depressed? GO SHOPPING!
The stupid tax “refund” check things, Bush actually said go out and go shopping! At least that wasn’t a credit card. It’s amazing how irresponsible people are, and the economy was built upon irresponsibility. So we have a choice, let it contract to what it rationally should be, or we artificially keep it engorged by spending borrowed money.
People are just too stupid.
Justin Webb seems intent on proving over and over again that those who claim the BBC is biased against Bush are 100% correct:
He [Bush] is as powerful as the mayor of Wasilla right now.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/09/mindboggling_contempt_for_bush.html
Webb’s bias elicited this pertinent comment (no. 8):
Can someone please explain to me how this blog adheres to BBC guidelines, specifically the one which says:
“…our journalists and presenters, including those in news and current affairs, may provide professional judgments but may not express personal opinions on matters of public policy or political or industrial controversy. Our audiences should not be able to tell from BBC programmes or other BBC output the personal views of our journalists and presenters on such matters.”
[Barbara Plett crying over Arafat, anyone?]
Now before anyone claims that the publication of that comment is evidence of the BBC’s lack of bias, let me point out that there is a big difference between what is allowed in the more relaxed atmosphere of a blog designed to let the public have their say and the rigid control maintained by the PC editors across the rest of the BBC’s output.
Hi Jonathan and Pangolin
Thank you so much for the explanations. I am beginning to catch on, but the dimensions of the money crunch is enormous, and the knock-on global effect still hasn’t fully registered.
The French are talking about restaurants going bust, the Brits are tightening their belts, but Southeast Asia and Mideast are in for big surprises.
We spent all our petrodollars expecting more to come only to realise the heyday of high oil prices may be over. No credit, five rounds of EU sanctions since June last year, higher commodity prices, massive unemployment and worse may still be on the horizon. Instead of armament, military confrontation and nuclear bomb, Iran would have done better to concentrate on tilling the soil: We would at least have something to eat.
@ Jonathan
Re: Short Selling
As I understand it (and I’m prepared to be corrected) I’d probably not have a problem with the practice if it was as simple as you describe.
However, the problem is that “the market” feeds off itself and, when a LOT of short selling goes on it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy as it actually drives the price down.
In a nutshell, that may be what’s wrong with “the market”. All too often it loses touch with actual values of the shares being traded and reacts to rumours, shadows…and deliberate manipulation. Alas, human nature being what it is, I have no suggestion for how to cure this.
HAHA. Look at this myspace morons getting owned by the state
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080921/D93AP5BO0.html
@ Bryan
RE: Alaska
I know, but Russian makes less sense. So I had fun with it.
@ Jonathan
RE: 700 billion
Last night on the new, one of the analyst said that was sticker price, that after all the “work” it would cost a few extra billion.
@Katharina~
One thing I, or any other sentient being, could have told you before any of this happened, is that poverty was not going to be eliminated by 2015. Were you actually expecting that it was going to be? That’s hilarious. It will not be eliminated ever. For one thing, poverty is a relative term. America’s poor are fatter than our rich, and some live in their cars. Most people of the world can’t dream of affording a car at all, and tragically many die of hunger every day.
What is clear to anyone not blinded by commitment to discredited leftist ideology is that the opposite of poverty is wealth, and the way to “eradicate poverty” is to increase wealth. Every capitalist country has enough food; every communist country doesn’t. What matters is the absolute level of wealth, not the disparity between rich and poor that you find so compelling. The rich are not rich because the poor are poor. Generation of wealth is how people escape poverty, as a couple of billion are now doing in China and India, and they are not doing it by means of international aid. The UN and all the associated programs are an irrelevant flyspeck.
steve September 26, 2008 at 12:33 pm,
Then they’ll have to be hauled before the unAmerican Activities Commission, if there still is such a thing.
(Only reason I know about it is because it was in a Simon and Garfunkel song.)
Then they’ll have to be hauled before the unAmerican Activities Commission, if there still is such a thing.
They better make sure to wear their lapel pins to the trial 😉
@ Steve
I’ve complained several times on Facebook that the UK tax authorities still owe me a substantial refund but, to date, have not received any cash from them.
Do you think I’d do better on MySpace?
@ Mark
RE Nobel Prize
I have always seen the Nobel prize’s as a making political points. That’s not to say it doesn’t goes to the right person, it’s just that person made inroads on something that needed political attention.
RE why is the far right making inroads into Europe ?
I dunno, but God (all gods) protect us from them.
@ Bryan~ The only way the Democrats lose to a stroke-ridden old man and his Alaskan, witch-hunting, consort is if the Republican party steals the election; again.
The computerized voting machines used widely in the US are extremely suspect and manufactured by GOP partisian-owned companies. Any competent computer scientist will tell you that they are a black box that can give the owner of that box any election result he wants.
Since the number of disasters that Bush and the GOP cabal has given us overflow the cup of reasonableness even a Klan Wizard can see that Obama might be a better choice. He can think about it while he waits in line for gas; if he can find gas in the South.
So, hey, sorry if we get a little clever about slamming McCain and Palin. I know it’s a bit hard to follow after seven years of chimperor Bush. If you get tired of it you can make bets on which day the Dow is going to drop below the level it was when Bush took office. Today looks to be a favorite.
@ Jonathan
No, you’re right, there was no chance in hell that poverty would be eradicated by 2015, or ever. But what I still do find very compelling is the speed with which the US government moves to save a couple of banks, and how difficult it is to find money to help the poorest of the poor. I even agree with you that it’s the generation of wealth that helps the poor, it’s like WHYS’s most quoted saying: give a starving man a fish and he’ll feed himself for a day, teach him how to fish and he’ll feed himself for the rest of his life. However, where there’s war or natural disaster, the UN is still needed to help, and a lot of the new money goes into education and sanitation, something that companies that go into poor countries because of low wages always tend to ignore (except for their workforce, of course. Unless it’s too expensive. See childlabour.)
Brett September 26, 2008 at 12:54 pm
Ah, you mean the ones with the US flag on.
It’s amazing how it can repeat back part of the question along with the phrases on the recording. Almost like a real person talking.
Yes just like any politician. She is a quick learner. 🙂
@Akbar
You would do better advised to do more drilling, raather than tilling. Oil price is still five times what it was ten years ago, and this is the time to cash in. You can buy food; that’s relatively cheap.
Once the destruction of your nucelar capacity is achieved by whatever means, I assume the sanctions will be removed, and you can join the world as a normal country. I sincerely hope that the destruction is accomplished by Iranians, rather than Israelis, because the loss of civilian lives from the latter course would be unfortunate.
@ Karnie, hi
RE: “Is it right for the public to bail out the mistakes of bankers?” NO!But since we are, the govt better attach some strings, pay down the national debt, and bal the US budget. Treat this $700 billion as an investment.
RE: “Pakistan the most pressing issue at the moment?” We have made it that way… my head hurts. How many battles on how many fronts does the US have to fight, before we take a step back and rethink the situations?
RE: “Is this a time to look after your own country instead of taking care of others?” If we leave 3rd world countries with out humanitarian aide, how long will it be before some of the problems and deceases that affect their areas, reach ours? Plus, leaving malnutrition children to die, hardly seems like the logical thing to do. Financially supporting countries war efforts like Pakistan, who are shooting at us and have been clear about their desire to let them deal with their own internal conflicts is not logical.
So much for not saying anything that would be a personal attack.
It was a personal attack on a public figure. Does that make it different? Public figures and religious groups seem to be fair game for everyone.
To tell the truth, public figure bashing does not register on my antenna.
Ah, you mean the ones with the US flag on.
Sure do! Because as everyone knows, you can’t prove your patriotism and love for your country without it.
@ Steve
RE MYSPACE
hahahaha, that hilarious.
@Katharina~
I don’t know why you and so many others keep talking about “saving banks.” If you pay attention, you’ll notice that the banks that failed in the last two weeks had been reduced to dust, meaning that their owners lost every dime. Does that make you feel better? I hope so. Executive pay, as I’ve said so often, is but a tiny sliver of these sums. It’s a vitally important matter, because contrary to the belief among the “booboisie,” the management is not “greedy and stupid” but smart and industrious and indispensable. They did what they were supposed to do, investing in insured, AAA-rated bonds.
The truth is more complicated than the fiction, just as a real meal takes a little bit more effort to prepare than a fast food burger, but it’s a lot healthier and more fulfilling.
@ Myspace / Kegheadz:
Pathetic the state is that hardup for money that they are taking MySpace as fact lol.
Oh Jonathan, you can keep sayin it, but it doesn’t make it true. Why do you think we are here. Money that gets “saved” end up where? Banks. They use it to secure loans. Loans to people that aren’t making enough to pay them back. They might invest that extra money in the stock market. Which a stock is what? A loan. Saying to the company I am going to give you this money and you are to use it to make the company more profitable. Sometimes they don’t.
A family sustained by an income only needs so many big screen TVs, meals in a day, cars, houses, trips to Europe, college degrees, boats, tubs of pudding and of course accessories, and other luxuries that the first 4 or 5 million pay for. After that, they are making more money then they are spending to the point it is actually unhealthy.
Let us go back to the Bill Gates/ Street bum analogy. Give Bill $1000. List just one logical thing that Bill might do with that $1000 he received unexpectedly. How fast can you expect to see that $1000 get turned 3 times? Use a FIFO (First in /first out perspective.)
Jessica in NYC September 26, 2008 at 12:50 pm
Oh, I thought you also didn’t notice the mistake. Actually, if the Republicans get in and McCain goes to that great presidency in the sky then at least Sarah Palin will know how to look after US interests. At least she’ll see the value in putting American moose stew on American tables. Obama will just hand the country over to whoever has the most persuasive anti-American argument.
Katharina in Ghent September 26, 2008 at 1:00 pm
I’d like to see hugely wealthy countries like Saudi Arabia helping out in disaster areas and assisting the poor. As far as I know, the Saudis only ever make pledges, except, of course, when they are rewarding the families of Palestinian suicide bombers with thousands of dollars. That’s actual cash. And the last thing they would ever do is get their hands dirty ploughing through rubble to rescue earthquake survivors. And when I last looked, oil-rich Sudan was not rushing to assist less fortunate African states. Perhaps when they have completed the genocide of Africans in Darfur, the pan-Arabists in Khartoum will turn their attention to assisting the poor. Someone please let me know if that happens and I’ll change my mind about the differing priorities of nations on this planet.
Why is everyone so keen to trash America? America is streets ahead of the vast majority of other countries on this planet in her compassion and active assistance to those in need.
@ Katharina~ It appears to me that much of what is ‘poverty eradication’ is wasted money. Rather than learning to use ecology as a resource the UN encourages imported fixes that can’t be sustained.
They buy trucks instead of bicycles. They drill wells but barely teach the use of ceramic water filters. Rocket stoves aren’t widespread as they could be. Almost nobody uses bats to eradicate mosquitoes.
It’s pretty useless to educate people who have to spend hours each day to gather the days water and firewood. Advanced drugs are useless when the mosquitoes biological enemies have their habitat destroyed. Purchasing fertilizer and burying nitrate and phosphate rich human waste is nuts.
For all that everybody trashes them for being political nightmares the Cubans feed, house and clothe ALL their people to a minimal level. This is a standard that should be reproducible in non-communist countries but seems to elude us.
Capitalism seems to fail at both the top and bottom of the world income scale. We need a reasonable alternative. Not communism, not capitalism; what does that leave?
All the people bashing the Sarah Palin interviews must have short memories. Where have you all been for the past eight years?
You are not going to forget Bush that quickly, are you?
TV in the past…
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=NfGdbFh6cSI&feature=related
Pangolin-California September 26, 2008 at 1:00 pm,
So US election results are suspect? And here I was thinking the whole process is democratic and transparent. I guess we better get the UN to deploy a bunch of monitors to oversee the November elections. Mugabe can send some of his hired thugs over to make sure they are free and fair. That should do the trick.
Those who followed Bush now they got lost in US bush, and they will never be the some Any how and for the US, 700 billion would not help your economy to its original level because you have created for your selves enemies in the west and east. Now some like
Russia, China, Iran, and North Korea are preparing for a space to clear your world leadership from the worlds mine and sure you are losing power as you lose your big banks soon or later you will be come baggers like Africans and Asians.
Hi Jonathan
What I meant to ask you is whether stationing 150,000 US troops in Iraq is wise? Couldn’t that expenditure be better spent elsewhere?
The American people are hard working. If an opportunity of low interest rates and loans emerges, why shouldn’t the public benefit? Why did householders get the brunt of the pounding? Was corporate America responsible?
Washington went into Iraq with the consent and backing of most of EU, Asia and even Russia and China. All of a sudden, there is a formidable chain of resistance to US presence in Iraq. Couldn’t this confrontation have been avoided?
From a purely political point of view, boycotting Iran, Venezuela and Bolivia has deprived America of 5% of total world oil supplies. Who formulates US foreign policy and who is going to pick up the bits and pieces when President George W. Bush leaves?
“Drilling rather than tilling,” that’s a good one. I don’t think the nuclear issue is the prime reason for Washington’s anti-Iran stance. I don’t think that there is a satisfactory way out of US, Iran acrimonious standoff. The focus of international attention has shifted to Baghdad – can America sort out it’s problems in Iraq? If by some miralce Washington does manage to salvage something from six years in Iraq, Iran is bound to follow.
@Bryan:
I have no “heroes” in this election–I’m not an Obama supporter and won’t be voting for him; in any case, I don’t see “egoistic cleverness” as being far removed at all from the “USA is always right” attitude I see others taking…
Pangolin-California,
If I’m not mistaken a voice of sense for once, with a good laugh attached.
I hope we’re speaking the same language here. So many of you Americans have an awful habit of twisting your comments, and using sarcasm one way or the next in some instances, so as not to actively support one side or the other in the election.
The Chimperor as you refer to Cowboy El Supremo is a good one, though. Might upset the Dear Righties brigade though. Oh dear, how sad, never mind!
Of course he stole the election, by having certain partisan forces in his favour, as well as Republican Supreme Judges in his pocket and not forgetting good Ol’ Jeb Boy. Keep it in the family as they say.
There’s even good evidence to say he stole the second one as well from Kerry, in last minute counting errors in the crucial states, but the media couldn’t really be bothered to go through the same rigmarole as 4 years earlier, as could neither the Democrats sufficiently find stomach for another fight to go against the grain of a “Nation at War” and more of the same needed to stem the flood of terrorism flowing down every nook and cranny of American society and western society as a whole, better known as the “Enemy Within” threatening us all.
Also, not forgetting defence of American interests and foreign territories where we’ll instruct you as how to best conduct yourselves with our benevolent assistance always being on hand, and all your best interests at heart being catered to at all times.
Please be so kind as to examine Iraq and Afghanistan as being one of the finest examples of this to date. All aboard the Tour Buses that will be at the ready very soon, for all to witness the liberation and success story of the 21st century. Ooops, we forget to mention 600,000 plus Iraqi casualties. A slight oversight there. Still can’t be helped really. Such is life my friend. And on your left please see USA Oil Inc. and on your right you’ll find it easy to see, if you wipe the mist from your spectacles the famous Iraqi Puppet Theatre Company, better known as the newly instated Iraqi president and administration. Enjoy the ride, and HAVE A NICE DAY!
@Pangolin:
“Almost nobody uses bats to eradicate mosquitoes. “
Who was doing that?
For all that everybody trashes them for being political nightmares the Cubans feed, house and clothe ALL their people to a minimal level. This is a standard that should be reproducible in non-communist countries but seems to elude us.
Good point…
@ Pakistan:
The clashes between the Pakistanis and coalition forces are getting subsumed by Wall Street woes in most of the American media, but how are they playing in the Arab world? Is it fuelling anti-US sentiment by showing that the Pakistanis can “stand up” successfully to the U.S. military?
Oops.
Are we misplacing our trust in religious leaders to act morally ?
Matthew September 26, 2008 at 2:13 pm
So many of you Americans have an awful habit of twisting your comments, and using sarcasm one way or the next in some instances, so as not to actively support one side or the other in the election.
Where do you get your information? Mostly what we see from American contributors to BBC blogs is anti-Republican rants. (Fits in well with the BBC leftie stance, of course.)
If you’ll find it comforting, have a look at this Have Your Say topic and you’ll see Americans practically spluttering in their eagerness to spout their anti-Republican venom:
http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?sortBy=1&forumID=5387&edition=2&ttl=20080926142539&#paginator
Notice a pattern?
Also, the Lancet “study” that came up with the 600 000 figure of Iraqi deaths has been widely discredited. But perhaps you didn’t notice that.
how come we don’t do a show on confidence in chinese goods? 50,000 chinese babies are sick due to tainted dairy products, and now the have found the melamine is now in crackers and other baby food. In the US, we earlier had the lead paint issue with chinese products… I believe even tainted toothpaste exists in china. Would you use a chinese product that you had to eat?
Israel Attacks Iran, Who Dares Wins!
TEHRAN – it is bound to happen. Tehran is after the bomb and consistently dangles its nuclear capability to ward off threats of attacks and reprisals. The silent pact of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad with prelates is that they are safe as long as he’s in power.
The world has too much to lose and there is too much at stake to prop up Iran any longer. Tyranny at home, blatant disregard of foreing policy priorities, inadvertent pursuit of WMD and incessant cries of war, make Tehran the obvious culprit in each and every regional plot of assassination and destruction.
@ Steve
I’d agree with the Chinese topic but, as well as the dangerous and tainted items you can also through in the cheap “knock offs” of devices that violate copyrights and patents. In my area, imitation microphones, amplifiers, mixing desks and so on are real problems–if they’re sold as Chinese it’s one thing but many of them end up on ebay pretending to be the real thing.
RE “”The computerized voting machines used widely in the US are extremely suspect and manufactured by GOP partisian-owned companies.””
————————————————————————————————————–
———— I live in what could be classed as one of the most “progressive” communities in the world, ie, dominated by young, liberal dems as far back as the oldest living member of the community can remember.
Yup, the dummies gave us the new mickey mouse designed computer machines to vote on. Just like the ballots approved by the Floriduh dem party for the 2000 elections and the punch voting booths that they maintained that they then shouted were responsible for the reps stealing the elections.
It’s that stupidity and lack of integrity that has kept them in an ever dumbed down political spiral controlled by the most clumsily stupid gens of reps I’ve ever been witnessed to.
Had the party had shown it could properly manage itself they wouldn’t have to throw themselves down on the floor and turn blue like a terrible two year old and could’ve prevented the national hemorhage and soon to be bloodletting.
Here the nation is on the eve of folding like some banana republic tinhorn generalisimo, and the usual suspects are blaming the other side when they are as cojoined as Siamese twins. Classic.
@ Bryan
“Obama will just hand the country over to whoever has the most persuasive anti-American argument.”
That is the most ignorant comment I have heard on WHYS ever. I will not waste my time addressing how anti-American you are for saying it.
@ Jessica
Re: Bryan’s comment
I think it’s one of the most intelligent comments I have heard. I am glad someone took off their rose colored glasses. Many times. I’ve saw comments about how McCain is yada yada yada…nothing wrong with showing both opinions. That’s about as American as you can get.
@ Bryan
Re:Matthew’s post
Thank you for addressing it. I appreciate you pointing out that many contributions from Americans are expressing discontent with Republicans. It’s true. I have always found that interesting since we have both Democrats and Republicans in our government. I guess it’s just all part of the blame game.
My computer hates Sarah Palin. It crashed when I tried to look up her interview with Katie Couric, eating some posts that I was writing in the process. So far, the closest that I can find to a full transcript is on Politico, who was kind enough to include a YouTube. And it uses one of those Javascript links, so I am not sure of anything. Has anyone else found anything better?
@ Treason accusations in american politics.
Let me get this straight. Sara Palin, the republican vice-presidential candidate, is on the record saying that the only flag in her office is the Israeli flag. Never mind she’s the sitting governor of Alaska. But you accuse Obama of planning treason?
The sitting US president, a republican, orders the torture of detainees against the explicit prohibition of the US Constitution and you accuse the Democratic candidate for the office of treason. He’s admitted to gross violation of the Constitution.
Is logic completely beyond conservatives or is that a condition that only applies in the US?
@ Jennifer
Re: Bryan’s comment
Of course you do, your points remind me of people who see things through rose colored glasses. I am always up for “showing both opinions”, heck I have issues with many of Obama’s policies ,just as I do McCains. We can question and attack all politicians for their policies, but to call a man who is a civil servant and done a lot of his country and is a candidate for President of the USA un-American and wanting to “sell” the us to people who hate the US it absurd and smacks of hypocrisy.
Bryan,
A reaction, great! I thought you’d all gone to sleep over there in Rightie land. I’ve had to put up with through your media, BBC television, YES THE BBC, ITV, Sky, CNN, Fox, and all your major networks for eight years, such misinformation, it’s unbelievable that you think you can judge on the basis of one blog a display of partisan support and news media in general, supporting a so called liberal agenda and bias. Tell me why the BBC in particular isn’t trusted in it’s analysis of the overall situation in Iraq and Afghanistan by those who know and have been and come back several times over?
I bring to your attention an independent journalist who I knew, at the time was commissioned by the BBC to do a report on “Life on the Streets of Baghdad” for ordinary citizens, an assignment for several months. He returned to the UK and presented so much evidence of the harsh reality for Iraqis under occupation. Guess what, it wasn’t even edited for transmission. It was dumped unceremoniously, because it was going to expose a side of the conflict that wasn’t appearing anywhere else. It was thought by the powers that be that the British audience, let alone an American one wouldn’t be able to accept it, because the truth of what was happening there wasn’t deemed suitable for broadcast. Was it the powers that be inside or outside of the BBC who wielded such power in reality? He’ll never know and is truly astounded to this day!
The first people to refute the Lancet findings and other similar findings – Bush and Blair. Why on earth would they do that? Please, I need to know. Discredited by who tell me. What has been deliberately shielded from us or turned away from in many instances in light of what has really gone on there for the past 5 years, I’m not sure we will or are ever going to know in current circumstances. I can cite instances of so many more examples and not solely to do with Iraq and Afghanistan. Yugoslavia, Kosovo, Israel, Palestine, Venezuela, Nicaragua, Cuba, Russia, Georgia, Nepal, Pakistan, Indonesia, Cambodia, Vietnam, Korea – you name it. The list is endless. You guys sure get around don’t you. Also I have personal experience myself of trying to get certain unpublicised information out via UNICEF.
Before you cite the past Communist and Soviet threats -gone my friend, no more. You had to find a new enemy didn’t you to carry the can for all the world’s ills. International terrorism allying itself to a non-Christian, better still a FUNDAMENTALIST IDEOLOGY – the Muslim faith – PERFECT! Ideal candidate standing in our midst, more importantly IN OUR WAY Jose!
If you and anyone wants a real debate of substance about your so many foreign policy failings for decades now, and how it has really come home to roost in the shape of George, Dick, Donald, Condi and your own man in the World Bank not that very long ago. Ref. to the movie Meet the Fockers, is more than appropriate to the above characters! Start asking salient and pertinent questions, not just offering rigid denial. Catch you later.
@ Kelsie~ There’s a famous colony of bats under the Congress Ave bridge in Ausin that are estimated to eat as much as 30,000 lbs. of mosquitoes and other bugs nightly. Check out your handy bat facts at Bat Conservation International.
Bats are also quite happy to eat corn borers, boll weevils and pretty much any other insect that they can catch. Very helpful critters, bats are when given a home that isn’t your attic or wall cavities.
@ Bryan~ If you can provide a link to a study in a peer-reviewed journal that trumps the Lancet study or a retraction in Lancet please do. You can’t because the study and it’s methods were valid. Sorry bud, but repubs. don’t get their own facts.
Jessica,
Well said.
To say that Sen. Obama is anti-American is just plain, well I can’t say the word because I have taught my daughters that it isn’t a nice word. I might as well start calling Sen. McCain the Manchurian candidate since he could have been brainwashed while a POW (remember, he keeps reminding us he was one). Both men love this country and have different visions on how to improve the US domestically and in the eyes of the rest of the world. I will even go so far as to say that Gov. Palin loves the US. Stop saying that one of the candidates will commit treason because it simply isn’t true and you know it.
@ Jessica
You might want to re-read my post. I said that allowing both perspectives to be viewed was American. I did not call Obama un-American.
Jennifer,
No, but Bryan did. He said, “Obama will just hand the country over to whoever has the most persuasive anti-American argument.” Having you say “I think it’s one of the most intelligent comments I have heard.” may lead one to believe that you agree with what he said. I apologize if we misunderstood you.
Allowing people to look honestly at both sides is American. Unfortunately, the past 8 years, it seems at least to me, that if you aren’t falling in lock step with the current administration and you try to debate and give an alternate point of view, you are un-American.
I think the problem with this debate was the bald statement that “Obama will just hand the country over to whoever has the most persuasive anti-American argument.”
Clearly this is simply not true.
There are two possibilities:
The scare-mongering campaign that the Republicans have indulged in has been believed by Bryan, or…
Bryan is trying to scare people himself.
Either way, this sort of hyperbole does nothing to advance an intelligent political debate. I’m cynical enough to expect this sort of thing from the politicians themselves but like to think better of WHYS bloggers.
Jessica in NYC September 26, 2008 at 3:41 pm
That is the most ignorant comment I have heard on WHYS ever. I will not waste my time addressing how anti-American you are for saying it.
Well there’s no need to turn up your nose at the comment. Why not debate it? I know you are a strong Obama supporter. I just wonder why. Actually, I love America.
Jennifer September 26, 2008 at 3:50 pm
@ Jessica
Re: Bryan’s comment
I think it’s one of the most intelligent comments I have heard.
Thanks for that.
Jennifer September 26, 2008 at 3:58 pm
@ Bryan
Re:Matthew’s post
I have seen the anti-Republican venom on BBC blogs for years now. I am amazed at the acerbic and personal nature of many of the attacks. It’s as if anti-Republican Americans don’t simply want to debate the issues, they want to lash out at anyone who disagrees with them.
@ Pangolin
Re: Bats
That was very interesting. Thank you for posting the link too.
I found it, I found it! And you guys will love this site:=)
The full transcript of Katie Couric’s CBS interview with Sarah Palin is on http://arahpalinexposed.com.
The full transcript of Katie Couric’s interview with Sarah Palin is on http://sarahpalinexposed.com.
@ Pink
That link doesn’t sound at all biased to me. LOL
@ Amy
I don’t support Obama-I think that he is a smooth talker who has little experience.
I do believe Bryan made an intelligent observation in the fact that he saw the other side of the coin. That is what I was referring too. I have stated before that I don’t think it’s possible to agree with a candidate on every issue but you do have to choose one if you plan to vote. Neither McCain or Obama are even remotely like us normal day to day working people. That makes the decision to support one candidate even more difficult.
On one hand you can say that that McCain is playing on people’s fear on the other you could say that Obama is just spoonfeeding you exactly what you want to hear. Both McCain and Obama have the same goal: being president. They will do anything within their power to do that.
@ Bob in Queensland
I would read the last part of Bryan’s last post. It’s the truth.
Matthew September 26, 2008 at 4:55 pm,
Where’ s rightie land? And the BBC is right wing? Say that to any self-respecting BBC journalist and you’ll be challenged to a duel at dawn. And CNN is totally paralysed by PC. Please don’t jump to confusions. I did not make a generalisation about all Democrat supporters or all media. I said I noticed a trend in BBC blogs.
Dunno why your friend’s effort was discarded by the BBC. Perhaps it was too obviously pushing an agenda?
The discrediting of the Lancet confusions is all over the Internet. I could fill up this post with links, but what’s the point? The “600 000 deaths” figure is always flashed around as an America-bashing conversation point by those intent on ignoring the fact that far more civilian deaths are caused in Iraq by internecine conflict and terror than by the coalition.
Pangolin-California September 26, 2008 at 4:56 pm – See above.
Amy September 26, 2008 at 4:59 pm
Bob in Queensland September 26, 2008 at 5:26 pm
Obama worries me greatly. Specifically his apparently long and deep association with unAmerican figures like the reverend Wright and Bill Ayers. What is “American” about an anti-white racist and an unrepentant terrorist bomber?
Bob, if you imagine that the level of debate here on the elections has generally been of high quality, you haven’t been paying attention. Many here have simply resorted to mocking candidates they don’t like.
Sorry about the bold type. Didn’t close the bold tag after blogs.
McCain or McAbel? whats the difference?
Jail the bankers together with their ferraris.