26
Sep
08

Blank Page no 26

Bob in Australia and Mike in Oregon in the US are your hosts for this weekend’s blank page. Let us know what the world is talking about and what you’d like to hear on WHYS next week. Over to you…
————
Greetings all from the middle of the night in Queensland and welcome to yet another edition of a “Blank Page”. I bet it doesn’t stay blank for long!

Normally I’d be all efficient and suggest a few topics to discuss but, hey, the world is in financial meltdown, Pakistan is shooting at it’s ally the USA….and a couple of guys in the USA are planning to have a televised debate. Somehow I think topics will take care of themselves!

(But if we get bored we can always talk about breast milk crème brulee, BBC bias, socialised health care or anything else you like. The Blank Page is where we all get to decide what’s important.)

Anyway, I’m away back to my pit and will leave you in the capable hands of my partner in crime Portlandmike and the rest of the moderators—see you around 0100 GMT for caffeine injections and the debate.


667 Responses to “Blank Page no 26”


  1. 1 Jessica in NYC
    September 26, 2008 at 19:02

    The Obama-McCain debate is on tonight!

    Whoo Hooo Hooo *doing a little dance* party at my house, I mean tiny NYC apt.

  2. 2 Jens
    September 26, 2008 at 19:05

    Jess,

    i shall froloc on my NM lawn, well while i still have it.

  3. 4 Jens
    September 26, 2008 at 19:22

    yieks,

    i guess he circumsized a little bit to low………

    i wonder how he got his penis inflammed, though.

  4. 5 Jessica in NYC
    September 26, 2008 at 19:24

    @ Steve,

    RE: the elephant in the room

    I was not calling you elitist, etc, in today’s WHYS topic page. It’s was a generalization of your attitude based on your comments on THAT issue, just as you make generalizations that insult people. If you say something like “McCain supporters are morons”, while you are not saying “Jessica is a moron”, one can infer that if Jessica is a McCain supporter ( *dying of a heart attack at the thought* ), she would be a moron from your comment. We have fought about this in a cluster of emails between mods. You and I are both clever people and are capable of pushing buttons while staying within the rules. I do not know YOU personally, so rest easy, that I would not pass judgment on you a person. This is why, I say that you do not make me angry, I would have to know you and care about you for this to happen. This is not to insult you, but I do not allow what people who are not in my life to effect me negatively. The only republicans opinions I care about are my relatives and friends….. and even then, I KNOW they’re crazy, so I continue on my merry path. For me, this blog is entertainment. Yes, I find spouting my opinion fun. So, I have, do and will continue to challenge your generalizations.

  5. 6 Robert
    September 26, 2008 at 19:25

    Steve

    Wow. I know that he said “perform any medical procedure deemed necessary” but you would have thought the doctor would have the sense to at least wake the guy to ask before going through with it. Or perhaps the doctor could have suggested prior to the op that this might be required and what are the patients thoughts. It would be interesting to see the reaction when the guy first came round after the op. Was he told quickly enough or did he find out on his own.

  6. 7 Jessica in NYC
    September 26, 2008 at 19:27

    @ Steve

    I will be offline for a better part of today and tomorrow. If you’d like to hammer this out in email, you know how to reach me. Have a nice day. 😛 (ha, ha, joke!)

  7. 8 Jens
    September 26, 2008 at 19:28

    jess,

    i always though it was the 800 pound gorilla 😉

  8. 9 steve
    September 26, 2008 at 19:29

    @ Jessica

    I believe the only people I have ever referred to as morons were bankers and people living beyond their means. I do have a problem with people and how their choices affect other people and not care about that it does affect other people.

  9. 10 steve
    September 26, 2008 at 19:32

    @ Robert

    I think that guy has a pretty good case against the doctor. Doctors I believe are required to notify people what’s going to be done during surgery. I remmeber cases pretty much like this (except other body parts) and the doctors were liable. This sounds like a case where there would be some substantial punitive damages to seriously penalize (no pun intended) the doctor.

  10. 11 Shaun in Halifax
    September 26, 2008 at 19:42

    If we take a loan from the bank and default on it, does the bank help us out by giving us the money? No.

    So why should we help out the banks when they need money? Do unto others as they do unto you.

  11. September 26, 2008 at 19:43

    I am having the most disgustingly difficult time trying to post the link to Sarah Palin’s interview and the page in which it is carried. Here are the raw URLs.

    http://sarahpalinexposed.com/?p=1142
    http://sarahpalinexposed.com

    Nyaaaahhhh and :=p at the internet monsters.

  12. 13 steve
    September 26, 2008 at 19:45

    @ Shaun

    No, but the bank might work with you, and you can file for bankruptcy protection and pay less than what you owed.

    Meter maids can ticket your car, but you can’t ticket them. The golden rule really doesn’t apply in life, it’s pretty much every man for himself.

  13. 14 Jennifer
    September 26, 2008 at 19:46

    @ Shaun

    I thought it was do unto others as you would have them do unto you? haha 😀

  14. 15 steve
    September 26, 2008 at 19:54

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080926/ap_on_re_us/children_safe_haven

    Interesting story on legal child abandonment. Should this be a legal option for parents to abandon their children?

  15. 16 Shaun in Halifax
    September 26, 2008 at 20:05

    @ Jennifer
    That’s the GOLDEN rule. I’m not a saint or God. I believe what I said is called the Brass Rule. If I treat a person nice, I would like to be treated nicely by him. But if he’s an arrogant jerk, I’m not going to turn the other cheek. I can be just as big an arse as he can.

    @ Steve
    If I filed for bankruptcy I’d still get hosed. The only debts I have right now are Student Loan debts and those are no longer wiped away when you do Chapter 11. Guess the banks caught on that to a student 5 years of no credit is a lot better than 10 years of debt repayments.

  16. 17 Jens
    September 26, 2008 at 20:06

    steve ,

    we discussed that one yesterday.

    a btter option than killing the kids, don’t you think?

  17. September 26, 2008 at 20:06

    I wish that I could share your collective enthusiasm for the debate tonight – especially Dancing Jessica :=) – but I think that I might actually call it an early night and Harry Potter myself out until I crash into some lovely rawling-inspired dreams.

    I cannot wait for this whole debacle to be over so that I can begin lobbying whoever wins the various posts.

  18. September 26, 2008 at 20:09

    Steve, my temper already flared on the issue of child abandonment. You missed the sparks yesterday?

  19. 21 steve
    September 26, 2008 at 20:10

    @ Shaun

    I don’t know anything about canadian bankruptcy laws other than it seems to be much lenient for the debtor than the system in the US is. They had to make student loans non dischargeable because every student would graduate school and immediately file for bankruptcy while they are young and with low pay anyways…

  20. 22 steve
    September 26, 2008 at 20:11

    @ Jens

    Yeah, definetely better option, but why would someone have 9 kids?

  21. 23 steve
    September 26, 2008 at 20:12

    @ Pink

    No, I missed out on that, sorry.

  22. 24 Bryan
    September 26, 2008 at 20:12

    Remember that great song by Bette Midler. (Please excuse any inaccuracies):

    From a distance
    You look just like a friend
    Even though we are at war

    From a distance
    I cannot comprehend
    What all this fighting is for

    From a distance
    There is harmony
    And it echoes through the land

    It’s the voice of hope
    It’s the voice of peace
    It’s the voice of every man

    Wonderful, uplifting lyrics. But what the hell are you supposed to do when someone is out to kill you simply because of your race or nationality or religion, whether you have a gun in your hands or not?

  23. 25 Jens
    September 26, 2008 at 20:15

    steve,

    it begs my believe as well……

  24. September 26, 2008 at 20:17

    Steve, here is the link: https://worldhaveyoursay.wordpress.com/2008/09/26/talking-points-26th-september/#comment-79300

    Or you could ctr+f me: I think that it took for or so hits.

  25. 27 Jens
    September 26, 2008 at 20:17

    steve,

    what would would you expect. i am sure not all iranians feel that way. i actually know plenty that hate the current regiem and have left virtually everything behind to get away from it.

  26. 28 Shaun in Halifax
    September 26, 2008 at 20:19

    @ Steve

    That’s actually exactly what happened in the 80s-90s. Just like The Man. We come out with a good idea to get a little more ahead and he shuts the door. Heaven forbid that a country could produce skilled, educated workers with disposable income that’s NOT being gobbled up by loan repayment! Imagine them spending that on other things? That would… well that would be logical! Can’t have that now can we?

  27. September 26, 2008 at 20:21

    Jamily (when you log in), I am still pondering your questions on the child abandonment issue. I am not advocating for a removal of the safe haven law. I just wish that we as a society would take better care of our famlies.

  28. 30 steve
    September 26, 2008 at 20:23

    @ Jens

    I guess my concern is that if people in the west said “Death to Iran” and did that sort of stuff, there would be holy hell raised here and in Iran. Don’t like double standards.

  29. 31 selena in Canada
    September 26, 2008 at 20:28

    Explain double standards because they surely don’t mean the same to everyone.

  30. 32 steve
    September 26, 2008 at 20:30

    @ Selena

    Double standard means one standard for one group, another standard for another.
    Jens just said it’s expected to hear “death to …” from Iran, but there would be no doubt outrage if Americans said “Death to Iran”. Iranians and Americans are both human beings, yet we have one standard for them, and another for ourselves.

  31. 33 selena in Canada
    September 26, 2008 at 20:45

    So you have exactly the same standard for the Palestinians as you do for the Jews? And you defend them just as passionately?

  32. September 26, 2008 at 20:53

    John McCain calls for “Death to Iran” on a regular basis.

  33. 35 Bryan
    September 26, 2008 at 20:54

    steve September 26, 2008 at 8:07 pm

    More Iranian well wishing for Jews and Israel

    I note that it is ordinary Iranians pumping out and celebrating that disgusting propaganda and hatred of Jews. This is precisely what ordinary Germans did to create fertile ground for Hitler long before he came to power. Just as Hitler could not have murdered a third of Jewry without the active and enthusiastic support of tens of thousands of ordinary Germans who became murderers of innocents, so the psychotic Mullahs of the Iranian regime cannot stand without the support of ordinary Iranians. They no longer have the excuse of Israel’s “oppression” of the Palestinians for their anti-Semitism. In any event Israel was always just a cover for their hatred of Jews. They have been busy proving that fact for years now with their denial of the Holocaust – which obviously predated the establishment of Israel.

    They have also proven their hatred of the infidel West in general and America in particular. And these are the people that Obama wants to sit down with and talk to? What is there to talk about?

    Pink September 26, 2008 at 8:06 pm

    I cannot wait for this whole debacle to be over so that I can begin lobbying whoever wins the various posts.

    I’m guessing you wont be part of the Israel Lobby.

  34. 36 Dan
    September 26, 2008 at 20:59

    @Bryan
    Those are wonderful lyrics for the politically naive.
    The reality today is that the miscreant mad Mullah Nasrallah issued another idiotic statement continuing a war that the Muslims started but keep losing.
    Stating that all the land in the Middle East must be returned to the original owners he made himself look like an ignorant ass by not understanding that God gave the land to the Hebrews thousands of years before the cult of Islam began. So….when are the Muslims leaving?
    The real problem is that there is a plethora of these self appointed mad Mullahs who speak to an ignorant poverty stricken population who are dependent upon these mad Mullahs for their daily existence.
    Until Muslims accept the reality of what Islam has become and break free from the shackles of this evil there will never be peace in the Middle East.

  35. September 26, 2008 at 21:03

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7637215.stm

    Current statistics suggest about 36% of households in EU member nations have high-speed net access.

    When a majority of EU citizens are using a telecoms service, EC rules dictate that it becomes one every European should be able to enjoy.

  36. 38 Bryan
    September 26, 2008 at 21:10

    selena in Canada September 26, 2008 at 8:45 pm

    So you have exactly the same standard for the Palestinians as you do for the Jews? And you defend them just as passionately?

    When the Palestinians revise their Hamas and Fatah charters, which call for the destruction of Israel – i.e. the murder of as many Jews as it takes to destroy the country and the enslavement of the survivors – and when they stop terrorism against Israeli civilians, then we can talk about treating them with the same standards.

    Do you have the same attitude towards a murderer as you do towards the detective who tracks him down?

  37. 39 selena in Canada
    September 26, 2008 at 21:19

    Do you have the same attitude towards a murderer as you do towards the detective who tracks him down?

    And what pray tell has that got to do with a discussion of double standards?

  38. 40 Bryan
    September 26, 2008 at 21:23

    Dan September 26, 2008 at 8:59 pm

    Those are wonderful lyrics for the politically naive.

    Yes, they are indeed.

    Until Muslims accept the reality of what Islam has become and break free from the shackles of this evil there will never be peace in the Middle East.

    I couldn’t agree more. In today’s radical Islam we are facing an evil of staggering proportions, in the Middle East and beyond:

    http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/index.html#Attacks

  39. 41 Anthony
    September 26, 2008 at 21:27

    The U.N.

    I’ve been watching the General Assembly of the U.N. for the 1st time, and WOW, what a hot steaming load of horse dung!!! What is that thing supposd to accomplish??? And all the B.S. in between delegates, geez, waste of time!!! All they are talking about is what is wrong, but no one is discussing HOW to change things, nor are they really working together.

    It seems like the U.N. is all for show!!!

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  40. 42 steve
    September 26, 2008 at 21:39

    @ will

    “John McCain calls for “Death to Iran” on a regular basis.”

    Please provide factual support for this statement.

  41. 43 Roberto
    September 26, 2008 at 21:40

    John McCain calls for “Death to Iran” on a regular basis.
    ——————————————————————————————————–

    ——— That “ranks” up there with the claim that Obama chants “death to Israel” on a regular basis.

    Is that the kind of blog this is?

  42. September 26, 2008 at 21:41

    Dan~

    You say, “The real problem is that there is a plethora of these self appointed mad Mullahs who speak to an ignorant poverty stricken population who are dependent upon these mad Mullahs for their daily existence.
    Until Muslims accept the reality of what Islam has become and break free from the shackles of this evil there will never be peace in the Middle East.”
    ……………………..

    I agree.

    But how can we influence this uneducated “poverty stricken population?” Their minds are already made up. It all reminds me of that Eric Hoffer book The True Believer, that I read so long ago.

  43. 45 steve
    September 26, 2008 at 21:41

    Murtha sued in defamation suit by marine (wonder what happened to this case, it’s old):

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/01/AR2006080101345.html

  44. 46 GB
    September 26, 2008 at 21:44

    So OWG was against the debate before he was for it? BTW, i just listened to Iranians protestors make the most outrageous statements about Israel but when asked to explain themselves by the BBC reporter they could not. They are just like us!

  45. 47 Bryan
    September 26, 2008 at 21:46

    selena in Canada September 26, 2008 at 9:19 pm

    And what pray tell has that got to do with a discussion of double standards?

    I guess I went off on a similar tangent to yours when you started talking about the Palestinians. I believe the point steve was making is that the blinkered left shows a curious reluctance to apply at least the same standards to murderous, terrorist regimes like Iran as it does to the West. Are you aware of how much terrorist murder of civilians (its own and others) Iran has been responsible for over the past few decades?

    Let’s illustrate this with a hypothetical example: George Bush claims the Rwandan genocide never happened and hosts a genocide-denial conference, inviting every vile anti-black racist he can find to support his contention. Ordinary Americans, encouraged by their leader, publish genocide denial material including cartoons mocking Tutsis and claiming they were lying about being hacked to death by Hutus in the hundreds of thousands. Do you really believe the intelligentsia of the left in America and elsewhere would be silent for one minute about such behaviour? Yet they are silent about the despicable Jew hatred emanating from Iran. This is what is meant by double standards.

  46. 48 Amy
    September 26, 2008 at 21:47

    Steve,

    Does McCain singing “Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran” to the tune of Barbara Ann by the Beach Boys ring a bell? I’ll look for a link later but wanted to jog your memory.

  47. 49 steve
    September 26, 2008 at 21:49

    @ Amy

    Yes he did that, and you could tell he was joking, and he did it ONE time. Not at every rally like they do in Iran. Last time one is less than more than one. Will said he has said death to iran many times and I want proof of this or want him to retract his statement.

  48. 50 Amy
    September 26, 2008 at 21:52

    Here’s a link Steve. The quality isn’t the greatest:

    While he isn’t directly saying “Death to Israel” (I know you love to knit pick) I do think by singing the song, he isn’t saying they are his favorite country and he doesn’t care if he kills some Iranians.

  49. 51 Dennis@OCC
    September 26, 2008 at 21:52

    No thanks to the idea of BREAST MILK [BRULEE]….I am not a baby…

    ****

    About the United Nations meeting, it is a talk show….Where all of the “big” talking heads go to talk…

    *****

    Dennis

  50. 52 Amy
    September 26, 2008 at 21:52

    I don’t think he was really kidding Steve.

  51. 53 steve
    September 26, 2008 at 21:54

    @ Amy

    Yes, people tend to be so serious while they’re singing songs. Will said that John Mccain said “Death to Iran” on multiple occasions. I want proof.

  52. 54 Bryan
    September 26, 2008 at 22:02

    Amy, perhaps you would like to take up the challenge I made in the last paragraph of my last comment. Why the silence from the left?

    And what would the intelligentsia of the left do to stop the Iranians? Sit down with them for tea and sandwiches?

  53. 55 Amy
    September 26, 2008 at 22:03

    I could be petty Steve and want proof of all the women at WaMu talking about going shopping since the Feds took them over……

  54. 56 Jonathan
    September 26, 2008 at 22:03

    @selena

    LOL @ “Explain double standards, because they surely don’t mean the same to everyone.”

    Yup, that’s what they mean, not the same for everyone.

    Except for you of course–it means whatever you want. 🙂

  55. September 26, 2008 at 22:04

    The Bush administration echoes its own ghosts quite often, doesn’t it? Bush’s comments regarding the slow progress of the $700 billion nailout in Congress rather resembled Rumsfeld's remarks about the looting that took place in Iraq after we bombed it into the stone age.

    The legislative process is sometimes not very pretty. -GW Bush, 26 Sept 2008

    Freedom’s untidy. -Donald Rumsfeld, 11 Apr 2003

    Here is an odd thing: I thought that someone said "Democracy is messy." I couldn’t find a real citation on it, though. Help?

  56. 59 Lubna
    September 26, 2008 at 22:06

    Hi gang ! :-)… I do have the absolute right to stand up and ask from all ordinary Americans and Westerners to kneel and apologise to me and to my Iraq for the continuing very harsh atrocities, ordeals, and sufferance my Iraq has been through and evil acts and horrific crimes committed against my Iraq by the successive Western and American governments, from the dark time of the British colonialism till the US led invasion of my Iraq, and after that I do have the ultimate choice either to accept that apology or turn it down… But hey, I, as a proud practicing Muslim, am a tolerant and an open minded person, and that’s why I do consider every human being responsible for only his/her own actions, not for the actions of others… But unfortunately not all human beings are as tolerant and open-minded as I am… Yeah, you tell that to the “until Muslims and Palestinians realise” party ! :-)… Let them watch Mr Bush (ha ha ha ! 🙂 while visiting Saudi Arabia smiling happily and dancing the sword dance with the Saudi King of Wahabism Abdullah… Selena my darling, here’s a practical example of “shameless double moral standards” for you my love… Yours forever, Lubna in Baghdad…

  57. 60 Jonathan
    September 26, 2008 at 22:09

    @Anthony

    Yes, a perfect description of the UN. Congratulations for discovering this. It’s been common knowledge for years, but I wasn’t aware it was televised, if that’s what you mean by “watching the UN.” Where are you watching it?

  58. 61 Julie P
    September 26, 2008 at 22:14

    I see God has left the blog.

  59. 62 Bryan
    September 26, 2008 at 22:15

    You guys have turned moral equivalence into a fine art. McCain makes two jokes about killing Iranians and suddenly that’s equivalent to decades of raging hatred from the Iranians as they continually call for death to America and Israel.

  60. September 26, 2008 at 22:18

    Steve

    Will said that John Mccain said “Death to Iran” on multiple occasions. I want proof.

    I would suggest, as you are rather apt at providing links, that if you want “proof” or disproof of a certain subject – then there are many free search engines out there for you to use. Dogpile is rather good.

    Did your parent never say to you “I want never gets?” Mine did – it is amazing how manners can afford some semblance of respect even if not given.

  61. 64 selena in Canada
    September 26, 2008 at 22:18

    I wonder what would be said if Obama sang bomb, bomb, bomb, Israel, since we are talking about double standards.

  62. 65 Anthony
    September 26, 2008 at 22:18

    @ Jonathan Re: U.N.

    I’ve been watching it on CNN.com this week at least a few hours a day. Wow. I knew the U.N. didn’t do much, but wow, what a waste of time and money.

    All I know now is what all the other countries are complaining about. THATS IT. Just “we need to stop world hunger”, and “stop terrorists”, and “credit crisis”. Not one person shared a plan or action, not one suggested a fix to any of it. Just leaders complaining about what their people already know!!!

    WASTE!!!

    -Anthony, LA, CA

    P.S. it’s funny when they show the crowd, because only 25% of the leaders are there at any one time, and even they looked bored as a 10 year old at a presidential debate!!!

  63. September 26, 2008 at 22:21

    Bryan

    By the use of generalisations we must – in the name of balance – use a generalisation toward the US, no?

    McCain is an American so, by the spewing of stereotyping we must therefore taint all Americans the same as he.

  64. 68 steve
    September 26, 2008 at 22:22

    @ Will

    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Mccain+stating+%22death+to+iran%22&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=

    I did this search and couldn’t find anything. Care to help me by backing up your claim?

    In other discussion when I made claims, I provided factual proof, such as the obesity discussion.

    Interesting what I did find in a Time magazine interview:

    AHMADINEJAD: The nations do not have any problems. What is the role of the American people in what is happening in the world? The people of the United States are also seeking peace, love, friendship and justice.

    TIME: But if Americans shouted “Death to Iran,” Iranians would feel insulted.

    AHMADINEJAD: If the government of Iran acted in such a way, then [the American people] have this right.

  65. 69 Anthony
    September 26, 2008 at 22:22

    Also, I think “bomb bomb bomb bomb, bombbomb Iran” is pretty close in meaning to “death to Iran”

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  66. 70 steve
    September 26, 2008 at 22:24

    @ Will

    Mccain said “I meant that as a joke” meaning he wasn’t being serious. Are Iranians “joking” when they should “death to America, Death to Israel?” Is it some bit of persian humor I don’t understand?

  67. 71 steve
    September 26, 2008 at 22:25

    Ahh, so now that we’ve determined that jokes are serious, I guess everything John Stuart and Colbert and Leno and Conan must be taken as being serious..

    Wow, you people compare jokes to actual “death to [insert nation]”

  68. 72 steve
    September 26, 2008 at 22:27

    @ Amy

    I’m just relaying what my source told me. He knew about the govt takeover, he was right about that. Are you suggesting he’s lying about the women talking about shopping and how could I prove that statement? You can prove a statement whether Mccain said “death to iran” though. He hasn’t. He never did, yet the accusation was made. And the best to “proof” provided were two jokes that Mccain said.

  69. 73 Jonathan
    September 26, 2008 at 22:27

    @Anthony

    “Show the crown?” What do you mean?

    BTW I think this is the week when the world leaders speak at the UN, right? So bear in mind that you’re seeing it at its very BEST and most exciting and productive.

  70. 74 Bryan
    September 26, 2008 at 22:31

    Lubna September 26, 2008 at 10:06 pm,

    Well I sincerely hope you are not going to be holding a sword to the collective throat of the West as you demand your apology.

    But I happen to agree with you about Bush and the Saudis (please don’t faint). I find his cosy relationship with the Saudi terrorist “royal” family quite obscene, especially in light of the fact that 15 out of the nineteen 9/11 terrorists were Saudis.

    People can claim that the Saudi royals were against the terrorists, but that only proves they have a fundamental misunderstanding of how the game is played here. The royals are only against those terrorists who directly threaten them, not those who carry out atrocities against the West and Israel.

  71. 76 Amy
    September 26, 2008 at 22:31

    Bryan,

    By taking part in this blog, you (I would hope) think that dialog is important. Communicating with people who have differing opinions to maybe find common ground (we all are human beings aren’t we?) or try and prove our points but to also listen to the other side…

    Since 1979, there has really been minimal communication between the US and Iran on a diplomatic level so how could there really be any communication on a personal, human level. “The intelligentsia of the left” as you call, I guess me, only has the clips of Ahmadinejad (who is a nut job, wacko in my mind) and the mullahs calling for the destruction of Israel. Occasionally stories like the one Steve provided actually get out but for the most part, your average American either ignores it or misses it. As Akbar has said many times, the average Iranian is focused on getting by, not on what is going on in Israel.

    Maybe by sitting down and having tea and sandwiches with vile people we can convince them that they are wrong. Simply yelling at them doesn’t seem to be working. By talking to people, you are not condoning their behavior. I’m not Jewish but I would have no problem telling Ahmadinejad that he is way off and that the Holocaust did happen. Just because I would talk to him doesn’t mean I agree with the support he gives to terrorist.

    I would hope that you would be able to sit down, break bread with those who you disagree with and listen to their point of view. That doesn’t mean you agree with them, doesn’t mean you have to like them. Maybe by showing you are willing to listen will get them to listen to you.

  72. 77 Anthony
    September 26, 2008 at 22:32

    @ Jonathan

    Oppps, I meant “show the crowd”.

    @ steve

    Man, I have been sarcastic and joked about many things on WHYS and your the first one to say something, even when the majority of people know its just a joke. And no, I don’t have any proof 🙂

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  73. 78 Jonathan
    September 26, 2008 at 22:33

    @Bob

    Slight correction to your gracious welcome: The page won’t stay empty for long.

    It’s about as blank as ever….

  74. 79 Dan
    September 26, 2008 at 22:33

    @portlandmike
    I am no expert but to change the mindset of these uneducated Muslims if for the USA to establish schools that teach other values. That may mean taking these people out of their Muslim environment and into the light….but it must be done.

  75. September 26, 2008 at 22:34

    Of course – we must look at the fact that McCain “jokes” about erm, women, bears in Montana, home owners in the US, what else does he joke about?

    Let’s see how many google hits we can do proving that McCain is a sexist, egotistical, blathering idiot?

    But there are some who equate to him and like his ‘style’.

  76. September 26, 2008 at 22:35

    45 portlandmike September 26, 2008 at 9:41 pm
    But how can we influence this uneducated “poverty stricken population?”

    My eyes glanced over some literacy and education stats this week. Education rates are miserable in backwoods Muslimland. The rate at which books are published and sold in the Mulim world is abysmal. My own anecdotal addition would be that, as far as I know, the press is generally not free in the Muslim world.

    Perhaps Muslims need to support educational institutions, literary endeavours, and freedom of the press in their homelands in order to raise the level of awareness of their peers. Then again, I said approximately the same thing when the discussion about Islamic extremism came up a while back on WHYS. Mike, you can poke and prod all that you want, and I can rant and rave until I am blue in the face; but until Muslims around the world who can afford to do so make meaningful and substantial investments in the social uplifting of their homelands, we will continue to see the same easy tendency towards radicalism as we see now in areas of the world that are infamous for their illiteracy, lack of access to education, and poor media tandards.

  77. 82 Jonathan
    September 26, 2008 at 22:35

    Anthony

    Show the CROWD, and see nobody there, duh, yes, thanks, I got it from context just after I asked. Sorry.

  78. 83 Jonathan
    September 26, 2008 at 22:37

    @Will

    McCain only looks good compared to Bush, but that’s setting the bar awfully low, isn’t it.

  79. September 26, 2008 at 22:39

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7638157.stm

    Pakistani troops have killed 1,000 Islamist militants in a huge offensive in the Bajaur tribal district over the last month, the army says.

    It says that it will regain control of the region from Taleban and al-Qaeda militants within the next three months.

    The army says that five top militants were among those killed in the Bajaur operation. The area is one of the most unstable of Pakistan’s tribal areas.

  80. 85 Jonathan
    September 26, 2008 at 22:41

    @Pink~

    Surely you’ve made some mistake, or your computer is failing again, because you left out the part about how it’s all America’s fault, as of course I’m sure you intended to say, as always.

    “As far as I know, the press is generally not free in the Muslim world.” LOL! Yes, you’re correct on that one. Furthermore, absolutely nothing else is free there either.

  81. 86 steve
    September 26, 2008 at 22:41

    @ Will

    Those links show gaffes that mccain has said. They do not show that he said “death to Iran” multiple times, as you claimed. Will, I’ve made factual errors on here before, and corrected myself. I did this just yesterday when I was wrong about how many people die from obesity each year. I said over 400,000 when the real figure is about 300,000. Can you admit when you’re wrong?

  82. September 26, 2008 at 22:42

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7636989.stm

    Russian and Venezuelan energy firms have agreed to work on an energy cooperation pact, at a meeting of their respective presidents.

    Venezuela’s Hugo Chavez was in the southern Russian city of Orenburg with Russia’s Dmitry Medvedev.

    The two countries have been rapidly building closer military and economic ties, and have spoken of their opposition to US global dominance.

    The latest deal calls for broader co-operation on oil and gas production.

  83. September 26, 2008 at 22:42

    Steve September 26, 2008 at 9:41 pm
    Murtha sued in defamation suit by marine (wonder what happened to this case, it’s old):
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/01/AR2006080101345.html

    What is it when we cannot call murder for what it is?

  84. September 26, 2008 at 22:47

    Jon

    McCain only looks good compared to Bush, but that’s setting the bar awfully low, isn’t it.

    Yup!!

    And the worst thing about that is his VP – 1 melanoma/heart attack/Pakistan-Iraq border visit – she will be president if they are elected, and that brings the bar even lower, still.

  85. 90 Jens
    September 26, 2008 at 22:47

    just watched the bomb iran thingy on youtube. there is a better on there with macain and miss tennesse interdispersed, when ron paul askied him a question about the economy. jezzzzzzzzzzzzzz we should have known then that he is a right nummpty

  86. 91 Jonathan
    September 26, 2008 at 22:48

    @Will

    That’s good news. Hugo Chavez can huff and puff all he wants, but he sends us oil and gasoline and we send him money. It’s a great example of how trade brings peace while diplomacy and politics brings war, and also how we don’t invade countries for oil; we just buy it. Heck of a lot cheaper.

  87. September 26, 2008 at 22:48

    Steve

    Me kind old dad used to say to me that, sometimes, university isn’t the place for some people – even if they can pass a test. Agree?

  88. 93 Bryan
    September 26, 2008 at 22:49

    Will Rhodes September 26, 2008 at 10:21 pm

    Bryan

    By the use of generalisations we must – in the name of balance – use a generalisation toward the US, no?

    McCain is an American so, by the spewing of stereotyping we must therefore taint all Americans the same as he.

    Sorry Will, I’m not clear on what you are alluding to. In general though, to compare democratic America, with all its checks and balances, to the theocratic thugocracy of Iran is absurd.

  89. 94 Jonathan
    September 26, 2008 at 22:49

    @Will

    What’s the difference between George Bush and Sarah Palin?

    Lipstick.

  90. 95 Jens
    September 26, 2008 at 22:50

    will,

    his bear joke is worn and tiered. i guess he has to repeat it over and over again, because that is all he can remember

  91. 96 Jens
    September 26, 2008 at 22:52

    steve,

    you were right with the first number it is OVER 400’000 obesity related deaths a year

  92. September 26, 2008 at 22:53

    Bryan

    Of course it is absurd, that is the irony of this.

    I did quite titter at the check and balances thing though. 🙂

  93. 98 Jens
    September 26, 2008 at 22:53

    jonathan,

    WRONG,

    bush is an intelectual compared to her…

  94. September 26, 2008 at 22:56

    Pink~

    Sure. Perhaps I am mistaken, but they teach One book there. It’s not like there are children’s books about talking mice for first graders to read there.

    Did you notice the link I posted a while back about “Patents listed by nation?” Those lands have added almost nothing. And reading and education and sexism and theocracy are some of the main reasons.

  95. 100 Anthony
    September 26, 2008 at 22:56

    @ jonathan

    Well, I know the difference isn’t Dick Cheney and Karl Rove.

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  96. September 26, 2008 at 22:56

    @Will

    What’s the difference between George Bush and Sarah Palin?

    Lipstick.

    HAHAHAHA!!!!!!

    Jens – did you know that McCain actually voted for that earmark? And here come the irony once more – that earmark (it was $5m not $3m) was used and went on to prove, with the help of DNA etc, that the bears are now no longer in danger and the gas/oil/coal industries will be free to explore in those areas.

    Quite.

  97. 102 Jens
    September 26, 2008 at 23:17

    will,

    no i was not aware of that. the coruption seems never to end with these guys.

  98. 103 Dan
    September 26, 2008 at 23:26

    @Pink
    Muslims get to read only one pretty crappy book. We need change that and teach them how to think.
    In short we need to use the deprogramming skills we have to deprogram Muslims and give them a chance for a good life and enrichment of their souls.

  99. 104 Jens
    September 26, 2008 at 23:33

    dan,

    how come there are plenty of muslims in science etc.

    i certain the koran is not the ideal biochemistry text book….

  100. 105 Bryan
    September 26, 2008 at 23:34

    Amy September 26, 2008 at 10:31 pm

    Yes, “Peace in our time!”

    Dunno what we could negotiate with the Iranians about. It should be clear enough by now that they obsessively desire the destruction of Israel. So I guess we would have to negotiate how much of Israel would be spared. Perhaps the Iranians would be kind enough to allow a postage stamp state on the Tel Aviv beach front inhabited by twenty-three Jews. But that is a bit optimistic.

    Regarding the West, all Westerners would have to convert to Shia Islam. Certainly they would not be allowed to practice any religion apart from Islam, though I guess a compromise could be reached and they could be allowed to become Sunnis. But I doubt it.

    I’m only half joking here. The Arab world, and not only the West and Israel, is extremely concerned about a nuclear Iran. The Arabs don’t have the naive faith in the Iranians displayed by easygoing Western intellectuals of the left. They know very well what they are up against.

  101. 106 selena in Canada
    September 26, 2008 at 23:34

    @Dan

    What are you going to teach them to think?

    We supposedly know how to think.

    Does it make us any better?

    Do we really want to hear anything that goes against our beliefs?

  102. 107 selena in Canada
    September 26, 2008 at 23:41

    how come there are plenty of muslims in science etc.

    In Iran, are they importing people to make the bombs the US says they are making?

  103. 108 Count Iblis
    September 26, 2008 at 23:47

    In the Iran-Iraq war, started by Saddam, the West supported Saddam. I’m not saying that the West approved of the use of chemical weapons, but the West kept on supporting Saddam after he was using such weapons against Iran.

    That was literally “Death to Iran” by the millions. The West only turned against Iraq when it invaded Kuwayt. But that was a non-event on the scale of the Iran-Iraq war. It was only important for the West because of Kuwayt’s importance as an oil exporter.

    After this war, the West wanted to disrm Saddam of its WMD. But no WMD were used in the occupation of Kuwayt and the subsequent Gulf War. And when they were used before in the Iran-Iraq war, the West didn’t really care.

    And now the West is saying that they want to to stop Iran from enriching their own uranium in their own centrifuges for use in their own nuclear powerplants. Diplomacy is being tried for now, but all options are on the table.

    But here in the West, all we are sensitive to are a few hostile statements from Iran, usually taken out of context to be made to appear more threatening.

  104. 109 Bryan
    September 26, 2008 at 23:51

    selena in Canada September 26, 2008 at 11:34 pm,

    Yep, we are better. We don’t stone women to death for adultery or murder men for not growing beards or torture kidnapped civilians to death for not bowing to our religion. And we don’t hang teenage girls from cranes for having sex or perhaps for being raped. Neither do we practice judicial murder on teenage homosexuals. And we don’t teach our children that people who don’t look and think like us are the sons and daughters of pigs and monkeys.

    This moral equivalence is like a virus that has swept right through the Western world. Left wing “educators” and “psychologists” and “journalists” have a helluvah lot to answer for.

  105. 110 Bryan
    September 26, 2008 at 23:56

    But here in the West, all we are sensitive to are a few hostile statements from Iran, usually taken out of context to be made to appear more threatening.

    What context?

  106. 111 selena in Canada
    September 27, 2008 at 00:01

    The Canadian Jewish Congress has facilitated the removal of a Liberal candidate running for election to the Canadian Parliament.

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canadavotes/story/2008/09/26/dion-seniors.html#socialcomments

    for this article that she wrote in 2002.

    reprinted here:
    http://members.shaw.ca/mclachla/page3.htm

    Isn’t this not only an attack on freedom of speech but a dismissal of the voters who choose her as a candidate and the voters who would have decided in the election whether to elect her or not?

    Freedom of speech and denial of the vote in one fell swoop? Way to go Stéphane Dion, Liberal leader!

  107. 112 selena in Canada
    September 27, 2008 at 00:05

    @Bryan

    I would rather take my chances with the supposedly uneducated Iranians than some of the righties in Canada and the US.

    I really should be scared to death to write some of the things I write. Good thing I am not running for Parliament.

  108. 113 Bryan
    September 27, 2008 at 00:13

    selena in Canada September 27, 2008 at 12:01 am

    They facilitated the removal? How, exactly? There is nothing in your duplicated link to explain it.

    I guess you guys will be watching the debate. I gotta go so I wont. But try to watch it with an open mind, at least, then perhaps we can have a serious debate about it tomorrow, rather than just slinging mud.

  109. 114 Kelsie in Houston
    September 27, 2008 at 00:36

    Hi Bob and Mike…looks like I’m late to the party.

    For those of you who remember the 1950s-80s: does this have a nostalgic ring to it?
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7638356.stm

  110. 115 selena in Canada
    September 27, 2008 at 00:39

    @Bryn

    It has been all over the news here for a while. The CJC is very active. This one has may have backfired on Dion though. Even people who have no political views are incensed. I have never seen so much reaction to a political decision.

  111. September 27, 2008 at 00:47

    Kelsie

    It was obvious that Russia would retaliate once the US put missile in their backyard.

  112. 117 Dennis@OCC
    September 27, 2008 at 00:50

    i hope that everyone will be watching the obama-mccain debate on television…i will be…..

    ****************
    Re: THE FINANCIAL CRISIS
    It will be worse before it gets better….

    Dennis

  113. 118 Jonathan
    September 27, 2008 at 00:50

    @selena~

    “We supposedly know how to think. Does it make us any better?”

    Hmmm.

    Guess it depends on who “us” is, exactly. Surely it’s safe to say thinking is better than not thinking.

    What an odd question.

  114. 119 selena in Canada
    September 27, 2008 at 00:51

    Anyone going to watch the infamous debate?

  115. 120 Venessa
    September 27, 2008 at 00:54

    I’ll be watching the debate…..until I can’t stand it anymore….

  116. 121 Kelsie in Houston
    September 27, 2008 at 00:59

    @Will re Russia:
    Some in the media are saying things along the lines of, “This could be another Cold War”… do you think that’s similar to their recent mantra of, “the U.S. could be in the midst of a recession”?

  117. 122 Kelsie in Houston
    September 27, 2008 at 01:00

    @debate:
    I’ll watch it, but probably keep off the blog about it unless one or the other (or both) of the candidates provides us with something world-worthy…if anyone is on MSN, though…

  118. 123 Jonathan
    September 27, 2008 at 01:14

    Well, I was on the fence about the “bailout” until just now when I accidentally saw Lou Dobbs on the tube. He’s against it. Thus, I’m for it.

    What a contemptible, despicable, hateful, fearful, cynical little man. And dangerous. Yuck. I just took a shower and now I feel dirty again.

  119. September 27, 2008 at 01:17

    selena in Canada~

    I read the 2002 article by Liberal candidate Lesley Hughes. She is antisemitic. I am surprised that you can’t see that. Anyone who believes that conspiracy theory is racist. Encouraging her readers to follow that link (the one that still works) is despicable.

    Lesley Hughes does have freedom of speech, and it’s not what goes in the mouth that polluted her career… it is what came out!

  120. 125 Julie P
    September 27, 2008 at 01:19

    @Selena,

    Of course, I am going to watch the debate. I have seen most every debate between 1988 and now. The one I missed was the VP debate in 1992 at Georgia Tech near downtown Atlanta because it was so much fun to drive down there and join in the demonstrations. The libertarians were such a hoot!

  121. September 27, 2008 at 01:23

    Jonathan~

    I agree about Lou Dobbs! But how did you get trapped into watching him? I watched Cramer tonight, and I agree with him that there should be a bailout, AND FDIC insurance on individual deposits should be raised to at least 2 million.

  122. September 27, 2008 at 01:24

    @Jonathan

    Well, I was on the fence about the “bailout” until just now when I accidentally saw Glen Beck on the tube. He’s for it. Thus, I’m against it.

    What a contemptible, despicable, hateful, fearful, cynical little man. And dangerous. Yuck. I just took a shower and now I feel dirty again.

  123. 128 steve
    September 27, 2008 at 01:25

    Question for liberals:

    I know you guys get up in arms (as well as some conservatives) about the Patriot Act, and how it in theory might restrict your freedoms. However, Democratic Governor of Maryland, O’Malley, is proposing DNA collection rules that would require DNA samples of people arrested for certain crimes, to be put in a database, without any conviction. What do you think about that? So ever if charges are never filed, or these get acquitted, they now have their DNA in a database. That seems to be a much more real risk to civil liberties than the government knowing that you checked out the latest harry potter book from the library.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/03/AR2008090301924.html

  124. 129 Julie P
    September 27, 2008 at 01:26

    @Jonathon,

    I don’t like Lou Dobbs either. I think he’s a holdover from the McCarthy Era. He may even be one of his cronies.

  125. 130 Amy
    September 27, 2008 at 01:27

    Bryan,

    I didn’t say negotiate with the Iranians. I’m not saying we can convince the current leaders in Iran of anything. But not talking to those we disagree with obviously hasn’t been working. Opening the door for a dialog may prove that yes they are all nuts or it may show that the average Iranian is a person that wants peaceful coexistance. You never know unless you talk.

    I’m being hopeful that by talking to people we can make the world a better place. I have 2 young daughters and want the world to be better than it is now.

    Sorry for this late reply… Mommy duties took over.

  126. 131 steve
    September 27, 2008 at 01:35

    Nice, some peace overtures and tolerance from Pakistan:

    http://www.daylife.com/photo/0aoHcpf38H3rJ/Al-Quds

  127. 132 steve
    September 27, 2008 at 01:46

    Wow, I wish the debate people would ask both candidates “do you really believe in God?” and I want to just laugh my head off with their lie answers.

  128. 133 selena in Canada
    September 27, 2008 at 01:50

    @Mike

    I make no judgments about Lesley Hughes. I have no idea about her views as I had never heard of her until this week. (And I didn’t see a link to follow???)

    I make a judgment about her right to speak her views and the right of the Liberals in Vancouver to choose her as a candidate. No Lobby group should have so much influence that they can force out a candidate who was chosen to run in an election.

    Dion went against the people of her riding who had chosen her. I object to that. The people should have been allowed to speak in the general election.

  129. 135 Bob in Queensland
    September 27, 2008 at 01:58

    Good Morning!

    Well, despite getting up at 4AM to post my greeting, I’m here, pint mug of tea in hand (and yeah, I admit it, a bowl of Fruit Loops. Oh, the shame!), plasma screen tuned to CNN and ready to go.

    I’m still reading in to what happened over night but I shall be blogging shortly!

  130. 136 Jennifer
    September 27, 2008 at 02:00

    @ Debate

    I hope Obama will answer questions directly! I hope McCain does not loose his temper! 😀

    I want them both to discuss their religious beliefs!!!

  131. 137 steve
    September 27, 2008 at 02:02

    @ Bob

    You better switch to beer. You have to play the debate drinking game. You have to drink every time a candidate says “iraq” or “main street” or “the surge” or “the economy”

  132. 138 Jonathan
    September 27, 2008 at 02:02

    @ Julie~

    I was thinking more like Goebbels, actually.

    Everything is terrible, be very afraid, the dark forces of power are arrayed against you and me and people like us, we don’t have a fair chance, and it’s all the fault of those ______. (Jews 70 years ago, Mexicans today.)

    Blood runs cold.

    So tell me more about the libertarians that were such a hoot in Atlanta! We libertarians need every laugh we can get lately. (No, laughing AT us doesn’t count.)

  133. September 27, 2008 at 02:02

    selena~

    She wrote this, “Israeli businesses, which had offices in the Towers, vacated the premises a week before the attacks, breaking their lease to do it.”

    I can imagine that powerful politicians would move against her in any manner they can find.

  134. 140 steve
    September 27, 2008 at 02:03

    Americans are so racist!

  135. September 27, 2008 at 02:07

    McC is wrong… Ted is back home.

  136. September 27, 2008 at 02:08

    92 Jonathan September 26, 2008 at 10:48 pm
    …diplomacy and politics brings war

    Hasn't diplomacy kept North Korea and the U.S. from slitting each other's throats? Given our experience with Bush and Iraq, I would say that lies lead us to war. Perhaps war is the result of an implacable bully not being straightened by a check or balance more powerful than he?

    108 selena in Canada September 26, 2008 at 11:41 pm
    In Iran, are they importing people to make the bombs the US says they are making?

    Iran is doing embryonic stem cell research and regularly takes part in robotics competitions. Last I heard, the Iranian people are not much fans of nuclear power.

  137. 143 steve
    September 27, 2008 at 02:08

    Mike, I think mccain has been in transit and hasn’t been watching the news like we can. he’s been a busy man.

  138. 144 Roy, Washington DC
    September 27, 2008 at 02:08

    @ steve

    I heard someone talking about playing a drinking game during the Bush speech a day or two ago. Playing a drinking game (even with beer) during a Bush speech seems like a good way to get alcohol poisoning.

  139. September 27, 2008 at 02:11

    another hospital visit by Ted Kennedy (he is back home again)

  140. 146 steve
    September 27, 2008 at 02:11

    @ Roy

    Depends on the words you choose. I picked main street and I already got to have a drink.

    For Bush in his prior debates, it was even easier because he had certain slogans he always used like “i’m a uniter, not a divider” “fuzzy math” and other hilarious things, though it would have been easier to drink to every gaffe he would make. My person favorites are “the google” “internets” “you forgot poland!”

    LOL

  141. 147 Julie P
    September 27, 2008 at 02:12

    @Jonathon,

    They had no problem crossing behind the police lines when the moment was right and wait at the back entrance where the candidates were to come out to greet Quayle.

    Vote early and vote often!

  142. September 27, 2008 at 02:15

    Palin corruption trial
    Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin’s Chief of Staff Mike Nizich and six other aides failed to appear at a legislative hearing into whether Palin abused her power when she fired her public safety commissioner this summer.

    U.S. Healthcare
    Joe Biden charged that McCain proposes taxing the health benefits that some 156 million people get through the workplace. That’s a major change, because now no income taxes are levied on those benefits, but it’s not the whole story.

    But what Biden didn’t say was that McCain also proposes to give the insured a new tax break in exchange — a $2,500 tax credit for individuals and a $5,000 tax credit for families.

  143. 149 Kelsie in Houston
    September 27, 2008 at 02:17

    @debate:
    Does anyone else dislike those stupid “focus group” graph charts that are in vogue on the American networks?

    The BBC is streaming the debate live via the News Service’s internet site–it’s actually about a second and a half ahead of my Houston cable company’s feed (and doesn’t have a chart of colored spaghetti lines running beneath)…

  144. 150 Jonathan
    September 27, 2008 at 02:19

    I’m supposed to be at the San Francisco annual book sale, but I’m glued to my chair. Mesmerized by Sen. McCain’s left cheek. It almost has a life of its own. It’s HUGE. I wonder what he has in there. Storing nuts for the winter?

  145. 151 steve
    September 27, 2008 at 02:20

    @ Pink

    I don’t get that. If he proposes taxing insurance benefits, but wouldn’t it be offset by the credit since a credit is dollar for dollar, whereas a deduction isn’t. Maybe I’m not reading it right, but I’m confused on this. I would really hate to pay taxes on my insurance benefits, but I understand why they can, it’s income to me. But why not tax gain from principal residence sales? Why do homeowners get to deduct mortgage interest payments?

  146. 152 Roy, Washington DC
    September 27, 2008 at 02:24

    @ Kelsie

    CNNHD was full of graphs like that…I switched to NBC, which doesn’t have any of it.

  147. September 27, 2008 at 02:26

    On NightLine last night someone said that 700 BILLION would pay for health insurance for all Americans for 10 years.

  148. 154 Jonathan
    September 27, 2008 at 02:26

    @Voting early and often

    Eleven states are already permitting their citizens to bote. Something seems very wrong about that.

    @Real-time focus group graphs

    Creepy. In fact, I think it’s right out of the movie “Network” — one of many things that used to be satire and are now reality.

  149. 155 Kelsie in Houston
    September 27, 2008 at 02:27

    @Mike:
    But THAT would be “socialized.” Unacceptable!!

  150. 156 Bob in Queensland
    September 27, 2008 at 02:27

    Lol Steve. Even ignoring that it’s morning for me, I have to go shopping and only have three bottles of beer left in the fridge. Given your rules, I doubt this would last until the end of the debate!

  151. 157 steve
    September 27, 2008 at 02:27

    @ Jonathan

    Why not focus on what he says instead? Or should I focus on Obama’s kinky hair? I prefer to listen to the words he says instead. Obama came close to saying what I wanted to hear, but not close enough. He didn’t address the american entitlment attitude that everyone should own homes.

  152. 158 Amy
    September 27, 2008 at 02:27

    Julie,

    Your vote early and often rings so true to me….I grew up in Chicago….where the dead can vote 🙂 and vote often!

  153. 159 steve
    September 27, 2008 at 02:28

    @ Bob

    Come on, they have 24 hour bars in Australia. I went to one in Melbourne when I was jetlagged. You’re not playing the game.

  154. September 27, 2008 at 02:29

    111 selena in Canada September 27, 2008 at 12:01 am
    Isn’t this not only an attack on freedom of speech but a dismissal of the voters who choose her as a candidate and the voters who would have decided in the election whether to elect her or not?

    *shrug* The Palestinian people were not allowed to elect their own government.

    re: 124 portlandmike September 27, 2008 at 1:17 am

    Mike, I had not heard of Hughes. What are some examples of her anti-Semitic racism? (in addition to her conspiracy theories, that is)

  155. 161 Julie P
    September 27, 2008 at 02:29

    @Amy,

    The dead like to vote in the south too! I’m sure they sent in their early voters ballots! 🙂

  156. 162 Amy
    September 27, 2008 at 02:31

    Steve,

    If you really want to get drunk, you should have picked “my friends” to drink at. Of course, we are using the TiVo so we can pause and really think about their answers (and get a refill!)

  157. 163 steve
    September 27, 2008 at 02:33

    @ Amy

    I picked my words incorrectly. I thought the debate was gonna be foreign policy related…. I really should have said “spending” I would be passed out by now.

  158. 164 Jonathan
    September 27, 2008 at 02:33

    @Steve re closing tax loopholes

    One battle at a time. The idea behind a tax credit for health insurance is to give everyone money to buy health insurance if their employers don’t provide it, without punishing those whose do.

    (“Those whose do” — awkward but correct.)

  159. 165 Bob in Queensland
    September 27, 2008 at 02:35

    Re: Healthcare

    I’ve heard lots of numbers tossed around about what “socialised” health care would cost in the USA.

    In the UK, the 2008/09 budget for the NHS which provides cradle to grave health care for every citizen is £94 billion (say $180 billion). The population of the UK is one fifth that of the USA so it’s reasonable to assume that an American NHS would cost circa $940 billion per year. Obviously this could vary depending on how much was covered but it makes a good starting point.

  160. 166 steve
    September 27, 2008 at 02:36

    @ Jonathan

    Maybe I’m drunk, but what I read said Mccain would tax insurance benefits, but give those people a tax credit. It makes sense a credit would be given for people who actually their premiums. But that would be unfair to those where their employers pay the premium, and notn get a credit. If anything, it would discourage people from wanting to have employers pay for their premiums, if they can get a credit if they pay for it themselves.

  161. 167 Jonathan
    September 27, 2008 at 02:37

    @Steve re multitasking

    I can do both: Listen to the blather and contemplate that enormous cheek. Even have enough spare brain cells to write these words.

  162. 168 steve
    September 27, 2008 at 02:39

    @ Jon

    Did you notice Obama is wearing a lapel pin and mccain isnt?

  163. 169 Bob in Queensland
    September 27, 2008 at 02:39

    Thanks goodness I don’t have to drink every time McCain says he’s not “Miss Congeniality”.

  164. 170 Roy, Washington DC
    September 27, 2008 at 02:40

    Mccain: “It’s well known that I have not been elected Miss Congeniality…”

    I sure hope you haven’t been elected that.

  165. 171 steve
    September 27, 2008 at 02:47

    Err. Mccain is kinda losing me on the iraqi freedom thing. I think it’s common sense to know that once US troops leave, iraq will fall into chaos. I think Obama is right on the surge. Once US rtoops leave, it will be like S. Vietnam, it will fall apart.

  166. September 27, 2008 at 02:48

    “Peace and prosperity in Iraq?” There’s that neocon vision thingy!

  167. 173 Bob in Queensland
    September 27, 2008 at 02:49

    Re: The “Surge”

    (Sips beer)

    Total agreement. The war isn’t being won…150,000 troops are just holding the lid on the kettle.

    It’ll boil over whenever they leave.

  168. 174 Jonathan
    September 27, 2008 at 02:50

    Steve,

    The whole notion of tax-deductible health insurance paid by employers is more than 60 years old, was never a deliberate policy, and is way overdue for a change. Millions of people are working at jobs they don’t like just because they have helth insurance there, for one thing. It’s a huge hit against the self-employed, and small businesses, and of course the unemployed. It started in world war II when wages were frozen; employers had to bid against each other by providing fringe benefits.

    I don’t know the details of anyone’s plan in this campaign, but for a long time there’s been a notion that would do something sounding like what Pink is describing. Essentially, to give everyone a level playing field (Oops, is that a “drink” word?) to get their own health insurance or get it through their employer, without a tax hit in either case.

    For the class warriiors, picture corporate executives with cushy expensive tax-free health insurance plans, and contemplate the unfairness of it all.

  169. 175 steve
    September 27, 2008 at 02:55

    @ Jon

    It’s not tax deductible, just not considered as income, there’s a pretty big difference. Gotta be careful about tax terms. I think insurance should be not considered income, and people should get a tax deduction for medical expenses, which they do, but if memory serves me right, you need to spend at least 8.5% of your AGI on healthcare expenses before you can deduct medical expenses.

    Been a while since I studied tax law (2002), but even insured people have medical expenses. It doesn’t cover OTC drugs (there are programs to allow for pretax income to be used for that) and even with my insurance, I have to pay for 20% of my costs that are covered. Fortunately I’m healthy, but some people aren’t, and 20% of some very expensive procedure is a LOT of money.

  170. 176 Jonathan
    September 27, 2008 at 02:56

    “You don’t say that out loud! If you have to do things, you have to do things.”

    My vote for the most memorable line thus far.

  171. 177 Bob in Queensland
    September 27, 2008 at 02:58

    Nah…it’s “he may be a dictator but he’s OUR dictator.”

  172. 179 Bob in Queensland
    September 27, 2008 at 03:00

    By the way, you guys are really confusing me. I’m watching the CNN feed with the audience reaction graph. Don’t you know: conservatives should be blue and liberals red? Sheesh, you can’t even get your colour scheme right! 🙂

  173. 180 Julie P
    September 27, 2008 at 03:02

    @Bob,

    Perhaps they are color blind?

  174. 181 Amy
    September 27, 2008 at 03:05

    Steve,

    Completely off topic… What area of law do you practice? Just always handy to know lawyers who specialize in different fields – never know when you will need to make that call 🙂

  175. 182 Bob in Queensland
    September 27, 2008 at 03:05

    Okay….I know some of you disagree on this but I really dislike McCain’s hammering on about “going to Iraq” and “going to Afghanistan”. Visits by politicians to war zones are grand standing for the benefit of the politician who gets a photo op and serve NO valid reason in terms of information gathering. If you want a sitrep, ask for it. Don’t stick your face in front of cameras in a “safe” compound, diverting hundreds of soldiers from more worthwhile duties.

  176. 183 Kelsie in Houston
    September 27, 2008 at 03:07

    @Bob:
    Agree completely.

  177. September 27, 2008 at 03:08

    The camera angles are interesting. I seems like Obama is facing us straight on, while McCain is tilted… and looking left.

  178. 185 steve
    September 27, 2008 at 03:08

    @ Amy

    there’s no on topic for a weekend thread. I work in general litigation, which ithe boring stuff they don’t show in TV shows which makes up most legal work. I did focus on tax law in law school though.

    Wow, Obama admitted Russia and China aren’t democracies..

    Anyways… Lawyers are very geocentric. I can only practice law where I’m admitted, which is DC and NY. You have to be licensed, kinda like doctors.

  179. 186 Julie P
    September 27, 2008 at 03:11

    McCain needed to spend more time practicing Ahmadinejad name before the debate.

  180. 187 Jonathan
    September 27, 2008 at 03:12

    @Steve

    I am pretty careful about tax terms. What is the “pretty big difference” between “tax deductible” and “not treated as income” for tax purposes? You’re the one muddling up health insurance premiums with actual health care expenses, and going off on tangents about details of your own coverage.

    What’s your point about the requirements for deductible health expenses now, and your particular insurance deductible, or co-pay, or other terms of your plan?

    This is about opportunity for people to buy the health care insurance that they want, under equal terms, irrespective of employer. That simple.

  181. 188 Bob in Queensland
    September 27, 2008 at 03:13

    Re: Camera Angles

    My take on this is that Obama is deliberately playing to his camera while McCain is talking to Lehrer and the audience. As far as I can tell the cameras are placed in exactly the same way for both men.

    I prefer McCains “angle” but when this is cut down into short soundbites, Obama’s method may look better.

  182. September 27, 2008 at 03:18

    Re: Camera Angles

    “Playing to his camera?” O isn’t looking at the camera ever.

  183. 190 Jonathan
    September 27, 2008 at 03:20

    Bob, I agree about not having to go someplace to know about it. With the caveat that Sarah Palin used that exact excuse just today for never having gone anywhere in the world. She implied that people with passports are “elite,” and she of course is good honest working stock, and not some rich brat whose parents gave her a passport after college and sent her off to Europe to fool around.

    The mind reels.

  184. 191 steve
    September 27, 2008 at 03:21

    @ Jonathan

    “I am pretty careful about tax terms. What is the “pretty big difference” between “tax deductible” and “not treated as income” for tax purposes?”

    Disclaimer, I am officially drunk at this point, BUT with that out of the way… You need to learn a lot about taxation. A tax deduction is something that reduces your taxable income. Ie if you own a home, you get a tax dedcution for mortgage interest payments. You get to deduct the state income taxes paid in the prior year. Ie, in 2008, you deduct state income taxes paid in 2007. If your total deductions are above the standard deduction, you itemize.

    Something not treated as income is totally different. You don’t recognize income in that situation. There is a big thing in tax law about realization vs. recognition of income. When you don’t recognize income, you don’t have tax liability. Examples are sales of principle residences you’ve lived in over 2 years. Any gain, (now, there might not be so much gain), you don’t get taxed on the gain. So if you bought your house for 200k and sold it for 300k, you have 100k. But if you lived there for 2 years as the resident, the gain isn’t recognized. So no tax liability on the 100k gain.

  185. 192 Kelsie in Houston
    September 27, 2008 at 03:25

    2118 BBC North America editor Justin Webb: Great McCain line: “So we sit down with Iran and they say they’ll wipe Israel off the face of the map and we say “no you won’t” The first time in the debate that Mr Obama looks discomfited and annoyed

    –off the BBC’s live blog (Justin Webb)

    Interesting–I thought there have been several moments where both candidates looked a little discomfited or annoyed.

  186. September 27, 2008 at 03:28

    Kelsie~

    I think that “annoyed” look was a look of disbelief. Does McC really believe that that is how nations meet and discuss issues?

  187. 194 Jonathan
    September 27, 2008 at 03:29

    Am I the only person boggled by the Battle of the Bracelets, each given to the respective candidates by a weeping war mother to honor her lost son, with differing sentiments that purportedly guide their strategy? (One said “Don’t let my son die in vain” and the other said “Don’t let this happen to other mothers.”)

    Yeesh. I expected that from McCain, but I almost fell off my chair when Obama produced his own bracelet and corresponding fairy tale. What a cornball trick.

    “Die in vain” is a profoundly perverse concept, I’ve always thought. How does it redeem one soldier’s death to send in more to die after him, and how many more does it take?

  188. 195 Kelsie in Houston
    September 27, 2008 at 03:30

    @Mike:
    Given his critique of Mr Obama’s foreign policy approach, I’m not convinced Mr McCain is interested in the whole concept of sitting down and talking…

  189. 196 steve
    September 27, 2008 at 03:33

    Neither are concerned with the fundamental problem of living beyond one’s means. Obama kinda touches on it, but he doesn’t accept the entitlement mentality here.

  190. 197 Kelsie in Houston
    September 27, 2008 at 03:37

    Obama: “”We have weakened our capacity to project power around the world…”

    As an American, I’m not sure this is necessarily an across-the-board bad thing. I wonder what the non-American WHYS readers think?

  191. 198 Jennifer
    September 27, 2008 at 03:38

    @ Portland Mike

    Re:Camera Angles

    Obama is playing up the smooth talker bit. He’s dramatic. I think he has dishonest eyes. I’ve noticed that he has even stuttered a little……….we have a common ground now. 😉

    McCain has maintained his cool so far! I am pleased so far. I loved the joke about not being able to reach that far to the left.

    @ Julie P.

    Re:Cheek comment

    Shameful.

  192. 199 Jennifer
    September 27, 2008 at 03:41

    @ Johnathon

    I thought the bracelet thing too. Obama seemed to forget the name of the person on his? Both had good scenarios there.

    All in all the debate was even tit for tat-they both held their own!

    _____

    I would really like for Cindy McCain and Michelle Obama to have a debate!

  193. 200 Jennifer
    September 27, 2008 at 03:42

    @ Jonathan

    I am sorry I misspelled your name in the previous post.

  194. September 27, 2008 at 03:42

    Re: Camera Angle

    MSNBC is saying that McC’s angle (body language) was intentional showing disrespect towards Obama!

  195. 202 Bob in Queensland
    September 27, 2008 at 03:43

    I thought the “battle of the bracelets” was just plain tacky.

    I want a bracelet that says “Politicians….yuck!”

  196. 203 Jessica in NYC
    September 27, 2008 at 03:44

    Hi WHYS!

    Overall I am very please that Obama articulated his comprehensive view of the issues and policy initiatives. He looked at McCain several times and addressed him directly, but McCain kept starring at the floor or down at the moderator. Was I just watching a channel that did not have a good camera positioning?

  197. 204 Bob in Queensland
    September 27, 2008 at 03:44

    @ Kelsie

    As one of your non-Americans…

    ….less power, more consensus please.

  198. 205 Jonathan
    September 27, 2008 at 03:45

    @Steve

    Are you drunk? It doesn’t show.

    First, the discussion is about a proposal for tax CREDITS.

    Second, what is the dollar difference between tax on $100K that’s deducted and $100K that’s not recognized? Seems to me exactly $0.

    Third, I think you have to buy another home with the proceeds from the sale of the principal (note spelling) residence to escape taxation on the profit from that sale. It’s always amusing when people move from San Francisco and have to find a house of equal or higher price to buy. A guy I knew who moved to Houston had to buy an enormous house that had been a consular residence.

  199. 206 Jennifer
    September 27, 2008 at 03:45

    @ Bob

    Re: Bracelets

    I would buy one from you! 😀

  200. 207 Kelsie in Houston
    September 27, 2008 at 03:46

    @Jessica:
    I picked up on that too.

    @Bob:
    I’m disappointed in that respect after this evening: neither candidate seems to be moving in that direction.

  201. 208 Bob in Queensland
    September 27, 2008 at 03:46

    @ Jess

    On an event like this debate there is a single set of “pool” cameras shared by all. What you saw is what everyone got.

  202. 209 Jessica in NYC
    September 27, 2008 at 03:48

    I noticed when McCain was stuck for policy initiatives or forgin policy problems he mentions something personal he saw or something someone gave him. He also ref history a lot that, I guess was suppose to highlight experience, but just kept reminding of his age.

    Example of Russian invading Georgia, both candadites verirtually agree on this, but Obama was able to articulate his investment of energy and this plans for the next 10 years. How this relates to national security.

    Side note: I didn’t realize Bush, spoke and read Russian. Poster of Pulin in Georgia. This made me laugh, talk about ducking the question.

  203. September 27, 2008 at 03:48

    Jennifer~

    “Dishonest eyes?” I Googled that term and got nothing.

  204. 211 steve
    September 27, 2008 at 03:51

    @ Jon

    “Are you drunk? It doesn’t show.

    First, the discussion is about a proposal for tax CREDITS.

    Second, what is the dollar difference between tax on $100K that’s deducted and $100K that’s not recognized? Seems to me exactly $0.

    Third, I think you have to buy another home with the proceeds from the sale of the principal (note spelling) residence to escape taxation on the profit from that sale. It’s always amusing when people move from San Francisco and have to find a house of equal or higher price to buy. A guy I knew who moved to Houston had to buy an enormous house that had been a consular residence.”

    I will make better sense tomorrow. the debate is over. I am FEELING GREAT! Tommorow I won’t.. Anyways..

    I can look up a link to provide a difference betweeen a credit and a deduction vs. not recognizing. But let me try. Now, say something you have a deduction for you. Say you have student loans and make less than 75k. You deduct your student loan payments, the interest at least. So say you paid $8000 in interest in a year, say you made $100,000 that year, a deduction would mean the 8000 deduction means you have 92,000 of taxable income that year vs. 100,000.

    Income not recognized is not taxed. Example is my insurance premiums. I have no idea how much they pay, but I don’t report it, so I don’t pay income tax on it. Capiche?

  205. 212 Jonathan
    September 27, 2008 at 03:51

    @Jennifer~

    How very gracious of you to apologize for misspelling my name. I’ve gotten mostly used to it, but it’s always just a bit irritating. You’re forgiven.

    About apparently attributing my shameful cheeky “cheek” comment to Julie, not so much. Hmph.

  206. 213 Jessica in NYC
    September 27, 2008 at 03:53

    RE Henry Kissinger,

    I thought McCain was wrong. Didn’t I read that Kissinger rec’d meeting with our “enemies” with out preconceived conditions?

  207. September 27, 2008 at 03:56

    Well, I have to say, If you already picked you “dog in this fight” neither of them said anything that would convince sombody to change their views. I have to admit, when they both agreed on an issue, I generally disagreed.

  208. 215 Jessica in NYC
    September 27, 2008 at 04:00

    @ Bob

    RE: Bracelets

    Dear lord, were the candidates for president of the most power country of the world comparing accessories? Maybe this is what Steve was referring to as the “feminizing of men”. LMAO. Men talking about putting lipstick on pigs and GOP delegates referring to Palin’s “good looks” as part of her qualifications to be VP. I’d buy one of your bracelets, too.

  209. 216 Bob in Queensland
    September 27, 2008 at 04:00

    A tie I’d say. But I have to ask: is a tie good enough for McCain when foreign policy is meant to be his strong point?

  210. 217 Jonathan
    September 27, 2008 at 04:00

    @Steve

    I capisci that we should take this up when you’re sober, yes.

    If your medical insurance premiums are $8000, and not recognized, you pay $0 tax on them, the same as you pay on your $8000 of interest.

    Plus, the other stuff I said.

  211. September 27, 2008 at 04:00

    If banks are bail out at the cost of the tax payer,then whaterer the assets are worth of that amount should belongto the taxpayer and Banks should not have any right on them as taxpayer has paid for them.

  212. 219 Jennifer
    September 27, 2008 at 04:04

    @ Portland Mike

    Yes, dishonest eyes. I am usually pretty good at reading people. I don’t think that’ll be on google!

    @ Jonathan

    Sorry, I make alot of typos. But, I did realize that one and since it was your name and I was addressing you thought I would correct myself. And, shame on you for making fun of an old man’s cheek………Shame on me for thinking it was Julie.

  213. 220 Jonathan
    September 27, 2008 at 04:07

    Obama is a better speaker than debater. He lost, or perhaps sacrificed, several chances to shift ground, leaving McCain to define the terms and elide his history of failures and problems and embarrassments.

  214. 221 Amy
    September 27, 2008 at 04:09

    Jonathan,

    I think the requirement to put any realized gains from a real estate sale back into real estate is no longer there. So, it you make $100K from the sale of the house there is no tax on it. I think that is where Steve was going but given that he is “drunk”, who knows 🙂

  215. 222 Jessica in NYC
    September 27, 2008 at 04:09

    Whoooooo hoooooooooo! Polls show Obama won the debate by 63%. Drinking to that. BRB a few people still hanging out at my place. Mike, where are you? Kept my promise, here even though I am tipsy. It was my Brilliant idea to drink everytime McCain made a movie ref. How could I have possibly have know McCain watched Miss Congeniality…. I was wondering if someone would please get McCain a sash and tiara. How many times will he say he wasn’t Miss Congeniality? Sheesh. Maybe Palin will lend him hers

  216. 223 Venessa
    September 27, 2008 at 04:12

    Jonathan ~ The gains tax on being in a residence over 2 years depends on the state you’re in. In Oregon it’s 2 years. I lived in my last house 3 years before I sold it and didn’t pay any gains nor did I reinvest all the proceeds directly into a down payment.

    re: Bracelet ~ I was completely bothered by the tastelessness.

  217. 224 Roberto
    September 27, 2008 at 04:13

    “” He looked at McCain several times and addressed him directly, but McCain kept starring at the floor at the moderator.””
    —————————————————————————————————-

    ———- Obviously you were watching with a biased eye.

    McCain looked directly at Obama in the opening minutes and made the first and only “joke” of the night regarding the issue of dialogue between the two.

    NPR consensus it was a draw with Obama having the edge in economic issues and McCain have a perhaps a bit more than an edge in foreign policy.

    Have to complement Obama for the subtle richness of his tie and statesman like attire, and have to note that McCain wore the blue collar and his tie was a seminal groundbreaker as far back as I can remember presidential attire, though me thinks a more mono deeper blue color would have set it off better.

    If any blood was drawn it was McCain who scratched Obama over “preconditions” and the difference between “strategy and tactics.”

    Cockiness: The both have it and have to restrain themselves. Kerry and Gore lacked it and it could be it cost them the election. Obama and McCain also have been physically marked on the left side of their faces. McCain famously had a skin cancer removed next to his ear and his jaw is more pronounced on that side, and Obama has a curious growth of gray hair jutting out just above his temple.

    It’s hard to believe that anyone would base their vote on debates which is mostly chicken in every pot and pie in the sky promises, but neither made any gaffes of note. One little minor flub by Obama that stood out as potential utube material was his “I have no objection to nuclear waste” comment, given that McCain had just accused him of voting for nuclear power yet against nuclear waste disposal bills.

    McCain started stiff and then warmed up, and Obama started confident and then stiffened up near the end. Excellent juxtiposition of style, not that it makes a hill of beans difference on who’d be better prez.

  218. 225 Bob in Queensland
    September 27, 2008 at 04:16

    Apropos of not much..

    In both the UK and Australia there is no tax on the proceeds from the sale of your primary residence, whatever you do with the money.

    Second homes or investment properties attract capital gains tax when you sell.

  219. 226 Jonathan
    September 27, 2008 at 04:17

    @Amy

    Huh, thanks, nobody tells me this stuff. (I think the first $100K was always untaxed; beyond that, you had to buy up or pay up. I’ll find out for sure when I get around to doing my taxes, which I ought to do one day real soon.) My poor pal has been cooling that huge house in Houston all these years… Still a mystery what it has to do with the medical stuff though.

    Note to self: Do taxes, get root canal. Guess which I’ll do first.

  220. 227 Venessa
    September 27, 2008 at 04:21

    Bob ~ It’s the same here in Oregon regarding 2nd homes but you still pay a tax on your primary residence if you sell it within 2 years.

  221. 228 Bob in Queensland
    September 27, 2008 at 04:22

    @ Jonathan

    Depends if you’re expecting to have to pay taxes or get a refund I’d think….

  222. 229 Jonathan
    September 27, 2008 at 04:27

    Bob, you callin’ me “not much?” Huh? 🙂

    I have to say it seems unfair–and I speak as a wealth-friendly person–for (relatively wealthy) homeowners to get more tax breaks than (relatively poor) renters.

    Worse yet, it distorts markets, diverting money to real estate, thus increasing prices, making it less affordable and worsening a potential bubble. Which of course gets attributed to “greed” by the unsophisticated, which of course can only be mitigated by government intervention and regulation. Sigh.

  223. 230 Jessica in NYC
    September 27, 2008 at 04:31

    @ Roberto

    Give me a break… we were ALLLLLLL watching with a bias eye. We were all listening to for questions we wanted answered. I did miss the first 15 minutes, b/c I was taking food out of the oven and opening door for people who arrived to my place late. I’ll make sure to watch for the re-run. SO, McCain looked ONCE at Obama. Yeah, he needs to perhaps next time will prepare for the debate more. Concentrate on the future instead of the past.

    I was not listening to NPR comentary, but was watching the news for the debate polls. Of course, Obama has an edge on economic issues. However, I laugh at McCain having an edge in foreign policy. Maybe I missed it during McCain’s comments of Korean’s hight. What does north vs south Koreans 3 inch height difference have anything to go with security? I must have missed McCain’s punch line there too.

  224. 231 Jessica in NYC
    September 27, 2008 at 04:34

    @ Jonathan

    I agree, Obama is a better speaker than debater. Since McCain cannot do either well, Obama was able to still win the debate. McCain needed to outshine Obama, since he is younger and has more energy. Obama held his own.

  225. 232 Amy
    September 27, 2008 at 04:36

    Jonathan,

    Do your taxes first… I’ve had two root canals (on the same tooth – they messed it up the first time) and it sucks!

  226. 233 Bob in Queensland
    September 27, 2008 at 04:36

    Nah Jonathan…you’re “much” much!

    It was only appropos of not much because UK and Aussie tax policy doesn’t have much to do with a discussion of the American situation.

    As for distorting the market, you can only realise this as a tax break when your’re in a situation where you can sell your home and not have to replace it–such as some lucky sods who move to Australia.

    If you want to talk about REAL distortions of the market, the UK used to have a system where mortgage interest payments were a tax deduction. That one REALLY messed things up.

  227. 234 Jessica in NYC
    September 27, 2008 at 04:42

    @ PortlandMike
    “The camera angles are interesting. I seems like Obama is facing us straight on, while McCain is tilted… and looking left.”

    Nope, he was just tired and needed to rest. LOL Cheap shot, I know.

    @ Bob
    “Visits by politicians to war zones are grand standing for the benefit of the politician who gets a photo op and serve NO valid reason in terms of information gathering.”

    Ah you don’t like Bush’s photo-op on an airplane saying mission accomplished? I have it printed and it sits on my night stand. HAHAHAHAHa, one more, HA!

  228. 235 Jessica in NYC
    September 27, 2008 at 04:45

    @ Steve
    “Did you notice Obama is wearing a lapel pin and mccain isnt?”

    I think, it was an oversight. His image consultant should be fired. Lucky, his patriotism won’t be challenged.

    He also, never said the word “middle-class”. Did you notice that?

  229. 236 Bob in Queensland
    September 27, 2008 at 05:07

    Well, as discussion on the debate has gone quiet (or is it debate on the discussion?) may I submit this in the “beauty fades, dumb is forever” category:

    http://uk.news.yahoo.com/itn/20080926/tuk-briton-s-bomb-sparks-airport-evacuat-dba1618.html

    I wouldn’t even handle an unexploded shell, much less try to carry one onto an airplane!

  230. 237 Amy
    September 27, 2008 at 05:16

    Bob,

    Oh my God. I can’t stop laughing… You can’t bring a bottle of water through security but she didn’t realize you couldn’t bring military “memorabilia” through. You said it, dumb is forever.

  231. 238 Kelsie in Houston
    September 27, 2008 at 05:18

    @Jessica:
    My MacBook just went haywire, sorry for suddenly disappearing!

    @Bob:

    The flight finally took off 90 minutes late with the woman on board, airport officials said.

    Talk about awkward…

    And now, heigh-ho, heigh-ho, it’s off for sleep I go!

  232. 239 Jessica in NYC
    September 27, 2008 at 05:20

    @ Roberto

    RE First 15, mins of debate

    I saw it on replay! Your were right, it was a nice and funny exchange between the two! I was following McCain’s first response re corruption until he said he wasn’t named Miss Congeniality and lost me… Didn’t realize he was running for it.

  233. 240 Roberto
    September 27, 2008 at 05:24

    RE “”Give me a break… we were ALLLLLLL watching with a bias eye.””
    ——————————————————————————————————

    ——— Forgive me for busting you instead of breaking you.

    You stated he was looking at the floor or moderator and I busted you. If I wanted to break you I would also mention that he would have to step away from the podium holding his notes to look at the floor.

    I am probably the least biased person on here because I won’t decide who to vote for until election day. I certainly won’t base it on debates, though Leher did an excellent job with his questions and moderation yielding more fruitful insights than the usual dreck of past debates.

    As McCain loosened up, he started to address Obama more directly than in the beginning. Of course they are both gonna look at the camera because WE are the primary addressees.

    On a personal level, I like both of these guys and their veeps, all very personable, but unlike many Americans, I don’t base the main of my vote on personability. I do regard this as the best presidential line up and the most seminal in my history on this rock.

    Got every reason in the book to or not to vote for these candidates: race, age, sex, religion, experience, class, military service, and of course party affiliation. Oh, did I mention “alleged” policy positions? If anyone thinks these guys are gonna implement cast in concrete policy positions, I have a Georgian run business in South Ossetia that I would like to sell them. Heck of a good deal.

  234. 241 Jonathan
    September 27, 2008 at 05:25

    Actually I’m always sure to keep paid up, so it’s literally a matter of aversion to the process. The state froze a bank account twice just because I hadn’t gotten the returns in. Now that got my attention.

    Root canals–I’ve never felt an instant of pain. Except for when I pay the $1200.

  235. 242 Bob in Queensland
    September 27, 2008 at 05:26

    You know, if you think about the “Miss Congeniality” film, Sandra Bullock played a rough and tough, gun-toting misfit.

    Hmmm…Sarah Palin anyone?

  236. 243 Jennifer
    September 27, 2008 at 05:32

    @ McCain not looking at Obama

    On the news; they have really made an issue about McCain not looking at Obama. It leaves me curious. As a Native American, when I speak to someone, I seldom stare at them directly in the eye for more than a few seconds at a time. I view it as kind of staring someone down. I wonder how people with other cultures took that nonverbal communication?

    McCain clearly set the tempo for the debate. He really stressed the fact that he does have experience and has much to offer. I liked that he also spoke about bipartisanship because I think it’s VERY important now. I loved it when they played the clips of Obama saying over and over again that McCain was right, as John said, yada yada yada.

  237. 244 Jessica in NYC
    September 27, 2008 at 05:47

    @ Jens and Julie P
    Did you catch Obama’s “orgy” comment on the lessons of Iraq War question? I am disappointed, I expected one of you to make a joke about it.

    @ Julie P
    “McCain needed to spend more time practicing Ahmadinejad name before the debate.”
    He needs to do a lot more than practice names for next debate. Even republicans thought Obama did better than McCain on this debate. Too bad that doesn’t translate to GOPs voting for Obama. However, Obama had a huge surge with indys. 😀 yessss!

    @Lubna
    Are you around? I heard the debate aired live in Iraq, (and 53 other countries) did you watch the debate? What did you think?

  238. 245 jamily5
    September 27, 2008 at 06:14

    at over-circumcizing:
    Isn’t it standard procedure that when an operation takes a hazardous turn, that you consult the family member?
    If Mr. Seaton was unconscious, couldn’t he consulted the wife?
    I wonder if they could have sewn it back on like they did in the Bobbitt case?

  239. 246 jamily5
    September 27, 2008 at 06:17

    Shaun,
    Hey, I think you misquoted:
    “Do unto others as they do unto you.



    “unto others, as you want them to do unto you?”
    (smile smile smile)

  240. 247 Paul Harbin - Waco, tx.
    September 27, 2008 at 06:30

    Too Much chit chat, way to Hi-jack the thread with mundane babble.

    1) What about the role/failure … or shady action of the credit/asset rating agencies in this fiasco. Moody’s, Standard & Poor’s, Fitch, etc … They are suppose to analyse this crap … these investment packages of consolidated, aggressive, and hi-risk lending stamped with the golden AAA rating. Asleep? Getting kickbacks? Totally un-ethical behavior?

    2) Humanity, have we progressed at all in the past 50 years, or just the ways in which we kill and swindle each other?

    3) The 1st U.S. Presidential debate.

    4) Climate change, if there is a remote possibility there is truth to this, why are we not banging the drum? What’s the point of the first 3 topics of choice if we choke ourselves out of existence before we have to be gone? At any moment several possible cosmic events could wipe us out, but …in all likelyhood, we are going to do it to ourselves before the universe decides to.

    I find it laughable the McCain set the tone for the debate. For the first 30 minutes he looked like he was trying to find a way out. He didn’t become alive till the end.
    Bipartisanship is not only important to us in the states, but for our president to hold around the world. We need someone with an ability to look to the future despite our past. Not someone that is grounded in it. I’m sorry, but old people are set in their ways, and there is no way McCain represents change, maybe some common sense, but not change. How many times did he talk about the middle class? ZERO.

  241. 248 Julie P
    September 27, 2008 at 06:40

    @Jessica,

    Never mind his pronunciation of Ahmadinejad given McCain’s multiple referrals to history I thought he would have paid more attention to Nixon’s performance in the Checkers debate. McCain couldn’t keep his eyes focused. It wasn’t that he was looking from the moderator to the audience and over to Barack, McCain eyes kept uncomfortably shifting around.

  242. 249 Bob in Queensland
    September 27, 2008 at 06:43

    Note to other mods…I have to dash out briefly to the shops…back asap and it’s quiet but if anything pops up pls feel free to do the necessary.

  243. 250 Jessica in NYC
    September 27, 2008 at 06:47

    @ Roberto

    “Forgive me for busting you instead of breaking you.”

    Ok, I forgive you. 😉 My comment was not literal, “looking at the floor” is an expression used when someone apprears to be uncomfortable, lying or ashamed. I believe McCain was very uncomfortable, and looked it, but if you prefer I will say looking down. In terms of being unbiased, your comments, fail you, sir. I will glue myself back together now, oh wait I am not made of glass. 😉

    Good luck to you on making your choice. I don’t need to wait several months, because ONE candidate is aligned with my best interest. Just as I know many people who would gladly vote for Obama if he was anti-choice. I know a few elder people who would vote for McCain if he was better grasp the economy or was an more of an environmentalist. There are deal breakers for some of us that are priorities, this is why not all of us wait until election day to decided. I have no problem being objective on some issues. On the ones I feel strongly about, I will criticize them heavily. In my opinion, Obama has many flaws, but they are grossly over match by McCains incompetence.

    @ Jennifer

    In many cultures, it is impolite to look someone in the eyes. It can appear to be challenging that person or “starring them down” as you pointed out. In the US, looking someone in the eyes is a show of confidence and respect. So, I interpreted McCain’s body language as a sign of being uncomfortable and unsure. You should be able to google a phrase like “body language” for a more detailed explanation. The president of the US should have better poise and should exude leadership and confidence in every aspect. McCain failed on all counts.

  244. 251 Paul Harbin - Waco, tx.
    September 27, 2008 at 07:01

    And to add to the debate topic,
    To answer the McCain adds with Obama saying, “You’re right John …”

    -How many times did John McCain talk mention you, the largest segment of the contribution to America’s success or failure, the Middle Class … in question of economic crisis…

    Clip – you’re right John –

    – You didn’t.

    “I’m Barack Obama, and I approve this message.”

  245. 252 jamily5
    September 27, 2008 at 07:04

    @Pink,
    I agree with you, but how to get that done!!

    All paren”,” to treat their children as they wish and suffer whatever consequences that are given.
    ….. ….sometimes, that is not much.

  246. 253 jamily5
    September 27, 2008 at 07:06

    About the Beach Boy’s remake:
    An A. for creativity, but oh my goodness. That is strange, though, because in debates and such, McCaine does not come across as someone who could make up something like that on the spot.
    I can see it now:
    A whole host of old and new songs, reworded to support war!
    Weird Al will jump start his career.
    But, even if we count it as a joke: it was rude and inappropriate for a political figure. And, would the same latitude be given to Iranians who “joke?”

  247. 254 jamily5
    September 27, 2008 at 07:06

    Pakistani troops have killed 1,000 Islamist militants in a huge offensive in the Bajaur tribal district over the last month, the army says.

    What I find disturbing is that to proove that Pakistan is serious about eliminating, they only have to show that they are killing their own people. Does that passify the US?

    @Dan,
    “Crappy book,” probably should have been sensored.
    And, did you know that there was a time when Muslims were leaders in education: Math and Science?

  248. 255 jamily5
    September 27, 2008 at 07:08

    @Bob,
    What kind of tea: with milk?
    And, Steve, Bob switching to alcohol would only work if:
    he had a mate who equally drank when
    the words “Bail out,” “Iran,” “God,” “my military career,” and “new change,” were spoken.
    Now, count the cans or shots.

    @Bob,
    Sorry, Steve and I were working those colors and with his alcohol and my blindness — well, what would you expect.

  249. 256 jamily5
    September 27, 2008 at 07:13

    @Jennifer,
    Once when I was in a public speaking class, I was chastized and my grade was lowered for not making eye contact.
    Now, I have artificial eyes and I almost took one out and made … … contact.
    (smile)
    But, if I can have points deducted, then, McCain is fair game.

  250. 257 jamily5
    September 27, 2008 at 07:16

    The debates are over, Bob!
    Your Your alcohol run is late!
    (smile)

  251. 258 jamily5
    September 27, 2008 at 07:22

    @Pink,
    I meant: “Parents have the freedom to treat their children how they choose.”
    It is a “freedom” to raise their children as they see fit.
    That is why I advocate for harsh consequences for abandonment and other atrocities to children.
    ut, yes, nothing seems to be working.

  252. 259 jamily5
    September 27, 2008 at 07:25

    @Lubna,
    We have not heard much from you lately. Are you okay? I hope that you are physically and emotionally hanging in there!!! jamily5

  253. 260 jamily5
    September 27, 2008 at 07:40

    OK, it is obvious that no one is an early riser!
    And, yes… … “early” is subjective to where you are.
    For me, it is 2:40, but for WHYS, it is 7:40.
    Hardly no one is on when I am and then, when I am finished with my day and check, I have hundreds of messages to read.
    Well, Turning in.

  254. 261 Jessica in NYC
    September 27, 2008 at 07:46

    @ Jamily5
    “Now, I have artificial eyes and I almost took one out and made …… contact.
    (smile) But, if I can have points deducted, then, McCain is fair game.”

    LOL– too funny. I’m a half awake, one eye closed. 😀

  255. 262 Tom D Ford
    September 27, 2008 at 07:49

    Good God!

    McCain is not even qualified to run the late night order window at a Taco Bell!

    I am absolutely stunned at the difference between the intelligent and articulate scholar and teacher of the US Constitution, Barack Obama; and the deer in the headlights, always resorts to fear-mongering when he is constantly stumped, last in his class at the US Naval Academy, and always the victim, John McCain.

    Me, “I’d like two tacos and a beef burrito”.

    McCain,but I’m a POW, 911 happened, I married a wealthy heiress (200 million dollars US) and the rich just can’t get a fair shake in the US without more tax cuts, wah, I didn’t even understand your order, wah again!

    They recognized Ronald Reagan as an “Amiable Dunce”, what title will McCain take home?

    (And the US Naval Academy needs better standards in order to weed out people like McCain before they stain the reputation of the Navys’ great military school!)

  256. 263 Julie P
    September 27, 2008 at 08:00

    @Jessica,

    I stand corrected. It was not Nixon’s Checkers speech, it was Nixon’s shifty eyes in the 1960 presidential debate.

  257. 264 Jessica in NYC
    September 27, 2008 at 08:10

    @ Tom D Ford

    Good Lord, tell me how you really feel!. LMAO. Thought you might want to make it a McDonald’s. A Taco Bell might make it seem like McCain is too pro-Hispanic!

    @ Julie P
    😛 Gottcha!

  258. 265 Julie P
    September 27, 2008 at 08:13

    @Jessica,

    The Checkers Speech reprise goes to Palin.

  259. 266 Pangolin-California
    September 27, 2008 at 08:19

    @ Debate~ As somebody more liberal than the Democratic Party I have to say it was a wash.

    John McCain- Whatever points he was trying to make he didn’t manage to come up with a single phrase that rang true with voice, delivery, conviction and fact. Considering he spent the whole time looking like he’d been given a drug cocktail of beta blockers and stimulants I call this a victory for him. Success, he didn’t insult another NATO country or climb the podium. I’d sell a kidney for a full drug panel on this guy ten minutes before showtime.

    Barack Obama- He succeeded in not being the black guy who was beating up on that poor, sick, white, senior citizen. He is either glued to the conventional wisdom or thinks American’s can’t handle the truth. Not once did we see his entire hand. Speak in a calm clear voice and let McCain hang himself was his strategy.

    The debate was a wash but a wash is a win for the Obama camp.

  260. 267 Pangolin-California
    September 27, 2008 at 08:27

    @ Tom~ I have to agree with you. If his name, money and backstory were stripped from him he’d have a hard time securing the greeters job at WalMart. Just another weird old man who thinks he was a war hero. BFD. We got a dozen of them down at the shelter every morning.

    Ronald Reagan was at least a great storyteller. His story’s were absolute fiction but dang the man could spin a yarn from thin air.

    The day the US quits electing morons to high office is the day I start saluting the flag. Not until then.

  261. 268 Bryan
    September 27, 2008 at 09:27

    To probably misquote Jackie Mason, who made this joke at the time of Clinton’s presidency:

    President Clinton is a downright liar. Nixon was also a liar, but at least he had the decency to twitch a little.

  262. 269 Bob in Queensland
    September 27, 2008 at 09:35

    Okay here’s one for us….

    China has lauched another manned space mission and has THREE ASTRONAUTS IN ORBIT. That’s not all that unusual, but have a look at the last paragraph in this story before the video clip. It seems that the Chinese Xinhua news agency released as story talking as though the mission had successfully achieved orbit…before the launch!

    On a broader topic, I’m a self confessed fan of space exploration but I wonder if these Chinese missions are actually achieving anything in terms of research or are just there for propaganda value (and internal propaganda at that). Considering how many space walks are involved in building the ISS, is a “first Chinese space walk” really much of a story? Should China have used there resources to become part of the ISS consortium rather than going it alone?

  263. 271 Pangolin-California
    September 27, 2008 at 10:18

    @ Bob re: China’s Space Program

    I applaud China’s achievement but they are still using the spam-in-a-can launchers. Until we get a reusable launcher along the lines of the Virgin Galactic project space travel isn’t going to get past the current phase.

    As long as all the materials have to be boosted out of the gravity well people are stuck on Earth. We have to work towards a self sustaining colony and that means gaining a significant volume of living space in orbit. That means we need to attempt an asteroid capture.

    This is the only planet we’ve got and it’s in trouble. I despair.

  264. 272 Bob in Queensland
    September 27, 2008 at 10:32

    Indeed, Pangolin.

    The Chinese space capsule is just a modified Russian Soyuz (so no technical advance there) launched on a “Long March” rocket. If we have to keep launching with a conventional rocket, at least the Russian ones are cheap and reliable.

    I agree that a totally reusable launch system is absolutely necessary. As I understand it, the Virgin Galactic project is a long way from achieving orbital velocity but at least they’re trying!

  265. September 27, 2008 at 10:34

    America’s Presidential Debate:

    Headlines from a couple of News Networks:

    Fox News: Candidates Accuse Each Other of Recklessness on Economy, Military

    CNN McCain, Obama clash in first debate

    BBC US rivals spar in first TV debate

    Notice the spin on the various headlines? You can check out others

    From CNN: Poll : Round 1 goes to Obama

  266. 274 Bob in Queensland
    September 27, 2008 at 10:45

    ….while the BBC (at least at the time I write this) are saying that the debate went to McCain.

    I posted somewhere I thought is was a draw…and I stand by that.

  267. 275 Bryan
    September 27, 2008 at 10:52

    Compliments to the BBC for putting the whole debate promptly online for those who couldn’t watch it on TV.

    Issues aside, I noticed that the two had very different styles. McCain barely looked at Obama, whether he was talking or listening. Obama, on the other hand, looked at McCain while he was addressing his arguments, though he looked at him less as it became clear that McCain was consistently avoiding eye contact. Obama looked at McCain a lot while listening to him and also looked at the camera at times, and therefore directly at the TV audience. This could work in Obama’s favour. He also appeared more relaxed and comfortable, though his tie knot was crooked.

    Obama also tried a few times to charm the host and get him onside. McCain had no such agenda. His lack of awareness of slick presentation techniques could paradoxically work in his favour because he came across as sincere and focused on the issues rather than image.

    In terms of presentation, I’d call it a draw. As for the issues, that appeared to be a draw as well.

  268. 276 Jessica in NYC
    September 27, 2008 at 11:37

    @ Bryan

    Booo. LOL. Booo. It was “mad funny” as NYers like to say, still, boo!

    @ BOB

    I confess, I saw the news story but pass it over for an update on the economy. As you said, how much exploration could they be doing?

  269. 277 Bryan
    September 27, 2008 at 11:41

    Jessica, I dunno who you are booing.

  270. 278 selena in Canada
    September 27, 2008 at 12:31

    As a disinterested outsider, I expected Obama to clinch the debate. All last week, through the economic crisis, it seemed that Obama was winning hands down. I expected him to put the finishing touches on the process last night.

    Today, I am thinking… don’t count McCain out yet! And I am wondering why Obama just can’t seem to get that extra little push that would propel him over the top and allow him to coast home.

    It was actually very funny listening to the commentators trying to find a way to disregard McCain. Even on CNN they had to concede that he did alright.

    What was more interesting than anything was that the bias could hardly be contained.

  271. 279 steve
    September 27, 2008 at 12:44

    @ Bob

    You’d need something massive for orbital velocity, and it’s highly unlikely they would ever have anything completely reusable unless they build a space elevator. Event eh space shuttle isn’t entirely reusable. They lose the fuel tank. The replacement for the space shuttle is partially reusable, as it uses solid rocket boosters, but much of the or ion spacecraft is very similar to the saturn v (for the heavy lift versions)

  272. 280 steve
    September 27, 2008 at 12:58

    Look at these “ratings” of the debates. What’s the point of having heavily biased people rating how the candidates did?

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7639103.stm

  273. 281 selena in Canada
    September 27, 2008 at 13:26

    There is no point. Everybody’s heavily biased Steve. You just have to get enough people on the side of your bias and you win. That is all there is to it.

  274. 282 steve
    September 27, 2008 at 13:28

    @ Selena

    Some people are capable of being objective despite their biases, sometimes they won’t. But having some far right commentor saying Mccain won and some far left one saying Obama win doesn’t really help, given regardless of what transpired, they would still have said the same thing.

    Obama could have vomited and cried, and Daily Kos would say he won.

    The far righty would have said the same thing if Mccain had done that. So the BBC even mentioning such biased opinions helps nobody.

  275. 284 Bob in Queensland
    September 27, 2008 at 13:49

    Re: Debate Ratings

    I also found it strange to use such clearly biased sources to produce an overall rating for the debate. By all means ask McCain and Obama supporters how they thought their candidated did (every media outlet fills time with that) but to try and use this to pick a winner doesn’t make sense to me either.

  276. 285 Bob in Queensland
    September 27, 2008 at 13:53

    @ Steve

    Re: the date lab link, I was worried that you might be the Steve featured in that article but relaxed when I saw he was a “goofy” “yoga lover”.

    Somehow I’m pretty sure that’s not you.

  277. 286 steve
    September 27, 2008 at 13:54

    @ Bob

    There’s more than one Steve in the DC area, not me, though I wouldn’t have handled a date so well when she already has a boyfriend yet is still going on a date.

  278. September 27, 2008 at 14:14

    @debates,

    This debate was decent and they let the candidates spar with each other more then normal, the answers are all political and too broad. The moderator was trying to force specifics out of them, but neither would bite.

    While the questions are hand picked to be the same ones a moderator would have asked anyway, I would have been more entertained by the YouTube style debate.

    Of course I still think we would have learned more if they had just held a “Jeopardy” type session, forced them to play a game of chess, and then finished off with a lightning round of a couple of their hand picked supporters pudding wrestling. (If we could get them to eat some gross stuff that would be cool too.)

  279. September 27, 2008 at 14:18

    @debate question?

    What 1 question would you like to have seen last night that didn’t get asked?

    (and I mean besides, “well John, is there anybody on your ticket who has been voted ‘miss congeniality'”? he was opening the door and Obama wouldn’t go in.)

  280. 289 Roberto
    September 27, 2008 at 14:25

    RE “”You should be able to google a phrase like “body language” for a more detailed explanation.””
    ———————————————————————————————————-

    ——– I knew it was a matter of time before modern day witch doctors weighed in.

    You’re problem is that to properly understand the debate, it should be viewed through a quality new age crystal where good and bad attributes are refracted out in a rainbow pattern on the back of the eyeball.

    Personally, I liked how Obama holds his rather large hands out, like he’s taking a pass on the basketball court. I expect to see him leap up and dunk the next question he fields.

    McCain on the other “hand” keeps a pen grasped at the ready to take notes, provide a little “punctuation” when making a point, and of course ready to puncture any national threat or 3 headed politician who dares to “cross” him, in which case his left hand is already partially closed and at the ready for a counter.

    So, who ya gonna vote for, the basketball player or the fighter. Get that new age crystal, you can find them for sale on tv and internet, rub it and polish as if a crystal ball which is a poor man’s substitute, and you will experience life “in the clear zone.”

  281. 290 steve
    September 27, 2008 at 14:29

    So China has now caught up to 1964:

    http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/space/09/27/china.space.orbit/index.html

    Think theyll make it to the moon within 5 years of their first spacewalk?

  282. 291 Bob in Queensland
    September 27, 2008 at 15:03

    Re: Space

    It has to be said that NASA is moving back to a more 1960s style of operation with their Project Constellation/Orion/Ares programme. It’ll be bigger, more computerised and more sophisticated than Saturn/Apollo but it IS a move back to totally disposable rockets and capsules (which, despite the supposed economy of re-usability) are still cheaper to operate than the shuttle.

    Launch systems powered by ground based lasers are my prediction for the future…but the distant future!

  283. 292 steve
    September 27, 2008 at 15:04

    Paul Newman died 😦

  284. 293 steve
    September 27, 2008 at 15:06

    @ Bob

    Ares utilizes reusable solid rocket boosters.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ares_I#First_stage

  285. 294 Robert
    September 27, 2008 at 15:12

    The debate format

    The problem with last night debate is that it is that won’t change the minds of core supporters and a swing voters are unlikely to see anything new would make them go one direction or the other. We the electorate are now so saturated with the candidates message via the media, that the debate holds no surprises. The spin doctors in each camp have figured out how to effectively force a draw in such debates and they no longer seem to serve a real purpose.

    I would like to see a change in the way the debate is staged. My initial thoughts would be that the questions are asked by voters themselves. A pool of people and their questions would be selected by an independent panel and come from a broad range of backgrounds. The candidates team will find out 2 days in advance basic details of the voters for preparation of answers, but impotently they will NOT know the question until it is asked on the night. A question is selected at random and asked in person to both candidates. Instead of the candidates and their teams deciding the agenda for the debate, the people get to decide. Instead of the candidates telling you want they want you to know, we ask them what we want to know. Unlikely as this is to actually happen, what are peoples thoughts on it? Would it improve voter engagement? Would it lead to better debates, more information and less spin?

  286. 295 steve
    September 27, 2008 at 15:19

    @ Robert

    Such a scenario would pose too much risk of a candidate making a major gaffe, and neither would allow that. I say “neither” because apparently only the candidates from major parties are allowed in the debates, which I think is wrong. The media has an agenda by keeping third parties out. That’s wrong.

  287. 296 Bryan
    September 27, 2008 at 15:20

    steve September 27, 2008 at 3:04 pm

    Paul Newman died

    I’m really sorry to hear that. One of the greats, that’s for sure.

    Remember Cool Hand Luke?

  288. 297 Paul Harbin - Waco, tx.
    September 27, 2008 at 15:23

    @ Bob

    What about those that hold belief to the idea, the Chinese have only gotten as far as they have because of stolen secrets?

    You don’t like the thought of the 1-2 mile long “rail-gun” launch ideas? I heard it mentioned in the past but … nothing lately, can’t say I’ve been looking for it either.

    @ Dewight

    Question: Should the bailout talks be held behind closed doors?

  289. 298 steve
    September 27, 2008 at 15:23

    @ Bryan

    Yup, I remember that movie. He was pretty good in Exodus, but that movie would be considered PC enough to ever be shown on TV again…

  290. September 27, 2008 at 15:24

    American democracy!?

    If you blog, use email, use message boards, and are in contact in any way with American voters pass this link on.

    It is vastly important!

    http://www.truthout.org/article/rfk-jr-and-mike-papantonio-is-your-vote-safe

    If the Republicans can steal this election they will. Make sure you are on the register to vote!

    http://www.voteforchange.com/ (Some believe this to be biased because it is paid for by Barack Obama – but Republicans and anyone else can register there, too.)

  291. 300 steve
    September 27, 2008 at 15:26

    @ Will

    I don’t really think the WHYS blog should be used to advocate for particular candidates. Sure we can discuss them and their platform, but I think your links are a bit too much.

  292. 301 Bob in Queensland
    September 27, 2008 at 15:27

    “What we have here is a failure….to communicate.”

    Maybe that should be the motto of the blog sometimes!

    Agreed. Paul Newman was in many of my favourite films.

  293. 302 Bryan
    September 27, 2008 at 15:31

    Robert September 27, 2008 at 3:12 pm

    The candidates team will find out 2 days in advance basic details of the voters for preparation of answers, but impotently they will NOT know the question until it is asked on the night.

    I guess you meant importantly. But impotently fits pretty well since they could be impotent when faced with a difficult question. Unfortunately many of these politicians think they are omnipotent.

    You seem to be thinking of a similar format to the BBC’s Question Time. It’s not a bad idea.

  294. 303 Julie P
    September 27, 2008 at 15:33

    Most memorable scene from a Paul Newman film:

  295. 304 Bryan
    September 27, 2008 at 15:34

    Bob in Queensland September 27, 2008 at 3:27 pm

    “What we have here is a failure….to communicate.”

    That was precisely the quote from the brutal prison boss that I was thinking of when I mentioned the movie.

  296. 305 Bob in Queensland
    September 27, 2008 at 15:36

    @ Paul Harbin

    Re: Chinese Space Programme

    Actually, not a great deal to do with space was considered “secret” so there’s not much to steal.

    The Chinese capsule is a redesigned Russian Soyuz…but they bought that technology.

    The “Long March” launch vehicle is, as far as I know, a Chinese original–but designing launch vehicles is hardly rocket science! (Bad joke intended). Seriously, there is plenty of information on rocket design in the public domain. The very reliable Russian launchers are a very old design and the technology is more akin to plumbing than anything high-tech.

    So…I don’t think they’ve stolen secrets…but at the same time they haven’t done anything new or difficult in space terms. The hard bits were done by the Russians and Americans in the 50s and 60s.

  297. 306 Bryan
    September 27, 2008 at 15:37

    What we have on this blog is a failure to differentiate.

  298. 307 Bryan
    September 27, 2008 at 15:43

    Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid is also a great movie, with great humour in it.

  299. 308 Robert
    September 27, 2008 at 15:48

    Bryan

    I hadn’t thought of question time, but now thinking of it there are a lot of similarities. As Steve points out no party would risk it (hence my comment saying its unlikely). Perhaps though the first one who has the guts to try something different in a campaign might win a landslide.

  300. 309 Bryan
    September 27, 2008 at 15:48

    steve September 27, 2008 at 3:23 pm

    @ Bryan

    Yup, I remember that movie. He was pretty good in Exodus, but that movie would be considered PC enough to ever be shown on TV again…

    Yes, I don’t think we’ll ever see the PC left going out of their way to show Exodus.

  301. 310 Julie P
    September 27, 2008 at 15:50

    @Bryan,

    I saw that film quite young and the one scene that has stuck with me was when Newman and Redford was when they were stuck on cliff that overlooked a river and right behind was the police or something like that. It was either jump or get caught. Redford’s character could not swim and would not jump. Newman’s character got him to jump anyway. That was a great scene.

  302. 311 Bryan
    September 27, 2008 at 16:01

    Julie P September 27, 2008 at 3:50 pm,

    Yes I remember that. It was a classic scene. And even when they are close to death at the end they still crack a joke or two.

  303. 312 Julie P
    September 27, 2008 at 16:02

    Just for you, Bryan.

    Scene from “Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid”

  304. 313 Bob in Queensland
    September 27, 2008 at 16:08

    Well, as the blog seems to be teeming with moderators just now, I’m going to take this opportunity to head to bed. If you could all look after things until Portlandmike is back on line, it would be appreciated. Have fun!

  305. 314 Julie P
    September 27, 2008 at 16:11

    @Bryan,

    I was so young when I first saw that film, it’s impressive I remember anything from it. That scene stayed with me because I can’t swim either. (Someone pushed me into a half frozen pond at the age of 4 and I nearly drown. I’ve had a life long fear water as a result.) Therefore, that scene had a real impact on me.

  306. 316 Dennis@OCC
    September 27, 2008 at 16:13

    Good night Bob in Queensland!!!

    @ THE DEBATES:
    I watch it for my Political Science class, and the moderator was not able to get any answers [Specifics] from either candidates….

    @ THE DEATH OF PAUL NEWMAN:
    I am sending his friends and family, my heart-felt
    condolences!

    Dennis

  307. 317 Julie P
    September 27, 2008 at 16:19

    Steve,

    That is happening where I live. There are seven gas stations to the south of me, none have gas. There are two that I drive by every morning on my way to work that have not had gas since the day after Ike. There is one gas station two blocks from where I work that has gas every other day. When they do have gas there is always a long line. The governor of Georgia said on Thursday the gas shortage is “self induced”. I have heard gas supplies could return normal in a couple days, two weeks, and they have no idea when it will be.

  308. 318 steve
    September 27, 2008 at 16:21

    Wow that sucks. Hope you have a bicycle!

  309. 319 Bryan
    September 27, 2008 at 16:28

    Julie P September 27, 2008 at 4:02 pm

    I just watched your clip. When they are discussing their options, outnumbered by about fifty to two, Redford says, “They could surrender to us, but it’s unlikely.”

    I love water, especially the sea. Perhaps you should try to overcome your fear of it.

  310. September 27, 2008 at 16:28

    Steve

    I know this will make an ass out of me and you, but I assume you read the truthout.org link?

    If not I would do as you seem to be the kind of chap that likes democracy.

    Where in my post, with links to register to vote for everyone, do I advocate any candidate? I may also add, if people who read this blog don’t know who I support by now then they take their god given right NOT to read what I add.

    I did add that the link takes you to an Obama paid for site [disclaimer] where everyone can register. Odd, really, really odd.

    You can even go there to find out that you are registered so you can write in Lou Dobbs, old chap.

  311. 321 Julie P
    September 27, 2008 at 16:32

    Steve, here’s the one thing about Atlanta that I have never agreed with: it’s a spread out commuter city, like LA. People commute obscene amounts of miles just to get to and from work. I would never in a million years drive 50 miles one way to go to work and I haven’t. I do everything within a 20 mile radius around my apartment. I don’t need to drive all over to conduct my life and I refuse to. I live ten miles from my job, so the gas I put in my tank two days before Ike hit lasted 12 days, and even then I had just over a quarter of tank by then. After work the Chevron near my job had gas, so I waited in line 40 minutes to fill up.

    In part, I do agree with Perdue, the governor that this is self induced, as there were people topping off their tanks there who were only putting in 2 or 3 gallons. (Evidently they don’t understand supply and demand.) However, the Colonial pipeline that gets gas to the southern states is operating at 80% capacity, which would create a supply problem, but not to the extent we are experiencing. There are four refineries that are still shut down in Houston and it is believed that once they are up and running, which should be this weekend it will be ok.

    I lived through the aftermath of Katrina and it took a full month for things to return to normal.

    I go to and from work, the grocery store, and place with a mile of where I live. I hate it.

  312. 322 Julie P
    September 27, 2008 at 16:34

    @Bryan,

    I have taken swimming lessons five times and I just can’t comfortable. I did date a guy for eight years who was a trained lifeguard along Ft. Lauderdale’s beaches, which was the only time I would get in the water. I just accept that I don’t like water and can’t swim.

  313. 323 steve
    September 27, 2008 at 16:38

    @ Julie

    What happened? I’ve got a phobia of swimming pools, but I love water (though am afraid of fish). When I was a kid, I was jumping up and down in the pool and hit my chin on the side, tearing it open. The pool turned red and I “drowned” and had to be recussitated by a lifeguard, then had to go to the hospital. So I never learned how to swim, though I can tread water, doggy paddle, back stroke, stuff like that, but I never was formally taught to swim because I’m afraid to go into swimming pools other than backyard type ones.

  314. 324 Bryan
    September 27, 2008 at 16:41

    Will, I read your link. Maybe I’m being as thick as a brick but I can’t see why Democrats specifically would be put at a disadvantage here as the article implies. Wouldn’t the problems apply to all voters?

    I agree with Steve that it’s a bit much to use this blog to urge people to spread an anti-Republican message via links, if that is indeed your aim. I’ve always been against that method of action since it reminds me of the chain letters we used to get in the old-fashioned way – through the post.

  315. 325 Amy
    September 27, 2008 at 16:46

    re: Paul Newman:

    STELLA!!!!!

    Cat on a Hot Tin Roof is another great one of his. His steely blue eyes will be missed greatly.

  316. 326 Julie P
    September 27, 2008 at 16:49

    @Steve,

    My sister and I went to nearby park one day in April on an usually warm day for Milwaukee. We were sitting on a dock at the pond when I felt two hands push me into the half frozen pond. My sister was quick to grab my arms, but given that she was only seven at the time was not big enough to pull me out. I struggled with keeping my head above water. She told me “some big kid” came along to pull me out. I don’t remember that. I just remember being afraid and being in very cold half frozen water. Wisconsin’s water is very cold, which I did not like and heated swimming pools was something that did not come along until I was teenager, and I hate cold water. I just never got past it. I took swimming lessons and my parents did take me for counseling a couple of times, but decided that they would not force me to do something I was terribly afraid of. Now, I am frightened by water, I just do not like it and just don’t care enough to change things. I have developed other interests.

  317. 327 Amy
    September 27, 2008 at 16:50

    Julie,

    My mom was about 4 or 5 and was thrown into the local “swimmin’ hole” (yes, that is what they had in the country) and was held under as a joke. She is 75 now and is terrified of the water. When I was a child and we’d go to the beach, if she was wading and a wave got above her knee she ran out of the water. I’m not a very good swimmer but I am making sure that my girls are. My 8 year old has been taking lessons since she was 2 (she is now working on her technique for both the breast stroke and butterfly) and my 4 year old since she was 8 months. They love the water and I am so happy about that.

  318. 328 Amy
    September 27, 2008 at 16:53

    Bryan,

    This is late but I think that Jessica was “booing” you since she was itching for a fight and you called the debate a draw 😦 Where’s the fun in that!

  319. 329 steve
    September 27, 2008 at 16:58

    It’s weird, I’m still sort of afraid of olympic style swimming pools. I was scared even watcing the Olympics, but otherwise I love water. The only materialistic thing I want in life is a jacuzzi. If I were unemployed, living in a FEMA trailer, I would be completely happy with life if I had a jacuzzi. I spent three hours in my brother’s jacuzzi tub before I took the bar exam on day one (meaning I was up really early in the morning) and I was so relaxed I couldn’t even try to feel nervous or anxious about the exam. The electricity bill was astounding.

  320. 330 Bryan
    September 27, 2008 at 17:02

    Amy September 27, 2008 at 4:53 pm,

    Oh. OK.

    Well, at least she’s still talking to me after I accused Obama of wanting to hand the country over.

  321. September 27, 2008 at 17:04

    Bryan

    All voters indeed, yet I don’t remember a Florida recount scenario because of the Democrats. If you do and can link me to where I can read please feel free to do so.

    As you read the link you will see that it is specifically those registered Democratic voters – would it be better for those who wish to vote Democratic to register Republican and then vote for whom they wish in the ballot box?

    I have an issue with an electoral system that decrees people have to register as one particular voter or another, what about a simple “register to vote” – then that’s it. Keeps the aspect of secrecy as to what a person wants to do.

    You know, personal freedom and all that.

  322. 332 Luz Ma from Mexico
    September 27, 2008 at 17:05

    Paul Newman´s death 😦

    For me the best scene was the bike ride in Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. Also, Raindrops keep falling on my head is one of my favorite songs.
    Yeah; I know, I am corny…

  323. 333 Bryan
    September 27, 2008 at 17:08

    Well, it does seem crazy that one has to register one’s preference before the vote. If it could be proven that Republicans are deliberately edging out Democrat voters here, surely that would be enough to invalidate the election?

  324. 334 Luz Ma from Mexico
    September 27, 2008 at 17:17

    Julie and Steve,
    I am sorry about your terrible accidents! I think we should be very careful around water, I have know people that have had accidents like that and some unfortunately didn´t make it 😦

    When I was 4, my little sister who was 2 jumped into a pool (she tought it would be fun, I guess). My father inmediately jumped and rescued her. Thank God nothing happened. The only thing that stuck in my mind for years was my mother´s scream. She was beyond herself (she also is terrified of water). After that, my mom got sure that we learned to swim properly. She took us to swimming classes every summer for years. My sibblings and I are good swimmer, have never been afraid of water and are very responsible around it.

    I am doing the same with my daughters. Sofia (3 years old) is very good and love it, I think she could compete some day.

  325. September 27, 2008 at 17:20

    If it could be proven that Republicans are deliberately edging out Democrat voters here, surely that would be enough to invalidate the election?

    You would have thought so – but, as the US is a republic, it is up to the States to decree is it not?

    There would be enough evidence that one side is doing this or that – but who really cares enough to take it forward to court or anywhere else?

    All I can say is that in the UK and Canadian system it is one person one vote, in the US it is how much of a percentage you have that give you the collage votes needed.

    I just about get my head around the “[The] Population centres don’t control where the presidency goes to” theory – but is that, again, strictly the case. California has a lot of votes per capita in comparison to say, Wyoming. If this was really the case wouldn’t each State have exactly the same amount of EC votes?

    So many questions – so little time.

  326. 336 steve
    September 27, 2008 at 17:23

    @ Will

    In the UK, does the public get to choose who their Prime Minister is? I always thought that the PM is chosen by the party. Sure, the candidate was elected, but by just his/her constituency, and not the entire UK.

  327. 337 Amy
    September 27, 2008 at 17:23

    Luz Ma,

    Maybe Sofia, Natalie and Abby can hook up at the 2020 Olympics!

  328. 338 Luz Ma from Mexico
    September 27, 2008 at 17:26

    Amy

    I would love that!!! I´ll include Uma in the equation (my other daughter). She´ll get jelous if not!
    Sofia can go in the Canadian team (she is Canadian). She has more chances that way… 😉

  329. 339 Julie P
    September 27, 2008 at 17:30

    Each state handles voter registration differently. In Wisconsin when I registered, I registered at the polls and I did not have to declare a party affiliation. When I moved to Georgia I had to be registered by a specific date and I had to declare a party affiliation, which I did not agree with as I felt then and still do, my vote is private; therefore so is my party affiliation.

  330. September 27, 2008 at 17:36

    Steve

    No, why?

    The UK is a parliamentary democracy not a presidential or federal republic. We don’t vote for the Queen either – which is akin to what you are implying.

    The PM is distinctly different from the president – I would have thought you would have known that.

    Oh well.

  331. 341 steve
    September 27, 2008 at 17:38

    @ Will

    Well, we have a constitution and it says that electoral votes are what counts, not the popular vote, yet you have a problem with that…

  332. 342 Roberto
    September 27, 2008 at 17:50

    RE Paul Newman:
    ————————————————————————————————–

    ——– A unrepentent unpretentious liberal who put considerable actions and money into projects to make a difference for those who were struggling.

    Politics aside, his charm, stunning looks, and natural talents put him at the A+ top shelf level of actors who ever lived. He could’ve crooked a pinky and had a bevy of Hollywood beauties at his beck and call, but famously remarked, “I got steak at home, so why would I go out for hamburger” referring to his longtime wife, Joanne Woodward.

    For me, his best role is Hud, a black and white film where his piercing sky blue are muted, and his full measure of youthful swagger, charm, and rascally reptilian character can be expressed thru a good for nothing Texas ranchhand. This is stark black and white cinematography and harsh Texas landscape at their finest, yet we can visualize those blue eyes manhandling his pink caddy convertible, kicking up clouds of women, dust, and mayhem everywhere.

    Gonna be a first ballot HOFer in the Beer Guzzler’s Hall of Fame to boot, a man for all seasons………R I P….

  333. September 27, 2008 at 17:54

    Steve –

    Of course I have a problem with that.

    The population (popular vote) votes for Mr X but Mr Y is the elected leader because he [Mr X] didn’t carry a certain State.

    How is that democracy? It is a popularity contest in certain ‘swing States’.

  334. 344 Bryan
    September 27, 2008 at 17:57

    I recall that before the 1994 South African election that toppled apartheid, everyone was required to get a specific identity book, which was the only acceptable form of ID for voting. Problem was, most black South Africans already had the book while many whites, for historical reasons no doubt linked to the separation of the races, did not have it. So there was much confusion and long queues at the Home Affairs offices and many complaints by whites that the election was drawing near and they had not yet received their IDs, though they had applied for them in good time.

    Another thing that troubled people was that absentee votes by citizens abroad were disallowed (though I could be confusing this with the ’99 elections). There were suspicions that the ANC had lobbied for such a ruling because of a perception, probably accurate, that there would be considerably more white than black South Africans abroad, simply because they were then generally more financially mobile than blacks and had also left the country in large numbers prior to the election, while still retaining their South African citizenship.

    Still, disturbing though these factors were, and given irregularities on the day, like ballot boxes mysteriously disappearing, I don’t believe they materially affected the election results. Since blacks greatly outnumbered whites, and given the extraordinary popularity of Nelson Mandela across racial barriers, there was never going to be anything but an overwhelming ANC victory. They got just short of two-thirds of the vote, the other third being divided among a number of smaller parties.

    The situation is of course completely different in the US, with the tight competition between Reps and Dems. So it is even more crucial that the election is fair and seen to be fair.

  335. 345 Robert
    September 27, 2008 at 18:10

    Well you learn a new thing everyday. I didn’t know that you had to register party affiliation in the USA (at least some states that is). Seems intrusive to me. The purpose of the state (in the British meaning of the word) during elections is to make sure that every voter who wishes to vote can. The state should be blind regarding the parties which run in the election. No voter should ever have to declare who they vote for. All individuals running should have the same rules imposed regardless of the party they stand for.

  336. September 27, 2008 at 18:10

    Bryan

    Where there is a problem with identifying the elector/voter I really don’t have a problem with someone having to provide certain identification documentation. But what you have shown is the stupidity of apartheid – white people couldn’t vote because of having no specific identification etc.

    I think Mandela was a shoe-in at that point – how democracy has moved forward in SA I am not sure about. Too many irregularities for my mind.

  337. September 27, 2008 at 18:18

    Robert

    I agree with you 100%

    It is of no business to the State who you are going to vote for. All they should do is make sure that as many people as possible are readied and available to vote.

    I believe that is why they [The US] picked the date and day for when presidential elections took place – so there would be time for everyone (as far as possible) to get to a polling booth.

  338. 348 steve
    September 27, 2008 at 18:31

    @ Will

    The US a republic, not a democracy. There are no democracies, never have, never will. That’s the system set up in the Constitution and that’s the only vote that counts.

  339. 349 Bryan
    September 27, 2008 at 18:33

    Will,

    Time will tell but I am not optimistic. Sometimes it seems the best the majority of people can hope for is a benevolent dictatorship. It ain’t only apartheid that is stupid. People throughout the planet are endlessly dumb and undemocratic.

    When the architects of apartheid were faced with the dilemma of how to classify Japanese and Chinese citizens, they decided that Japanese were white and Chinese were black. Now we can throw up our hands in horror at this but equally we should be horrified that under the ANC government of the New South Africa, the Chinese found that they had miraculously become white. Since white South Africans are currently discriminated against in all kinds of ways, Chinese businesmen found themselves unable to reap the same benefits from government regulations as did their black counterparts. I believe that after a considerable struggle they managed to get themselves classified black again.

    The more things change….

  340. 350 Robert
    September 27, 2008 at 18:35

    Will, Steve

    The UK system has far more anomalies than the US system. The liberal democrats in 97 doubled the number of seats at Westminster compared with ’92 but with a smaller share of the overall vote. Around 20% of Scots vote for the conservatives, yet there was not a single Scottish Tory MP that year.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_general_election,_1997
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_general_election,_2005
    (the 2005 link states the Scottish Tory situation in 97 which for some reason is lacking in the 97 one)

    The EC is not perfect, but in terms of distorting the results is probably fairer than Westminster is.

  341. 351 steve
    September 27, 2008 at 18:54

    America is a sinking ship. NO candidate is going to come out and say what needs to be said:

    No, you can’t have a Mcmansion. No you can’t have that car, no you can’t have that Plasma TV unless you have the cash saved up to buy it.

    Nobody is willing to do this, so the people will continue living beyond their means. Idiots. Sinking ship. Why would anyone even want to be the President with this mess? People have been enabled to be irresponsible for too long.

  342. 352 viola
    September 27, 2008 at 19:06

    Just watched McCain/Obama debate again.:

    Obama, of course, reiterated the old saw about McCain being more of Bush. So I would ask of McCain, “If Bush had been a democrat, would you have backed as many of his policies as you did?” Also, “How can Americans reconcile the need to be united in the war against terror with the equally important need to be vigilant in detecting deception when being urged to back that war?”

    Those would also be good questions for Obama to address.

  343. September 27, 2008 at 19:16

    Bryan

    I have said over a number of years that we simply vote for a dictatorship until the next one.

    One reason I do believe in socialism as a political system. Not the Soviet/Red Army/Chinese [add whomever you want here] socialism. But the socialism that brings democracy down to its common denominator – right down to the street we live on level. Is that a too higer aspiration? I think it is today.

    It ain’t only apartheid that is stupid. People throughout the planet are endlessly dumb and undemocratic.

    100% agree with you.

  344. 354 viola
    September 27, 2008 at 19:17

    I became aware of the wild state of the credit world two years ago when I had a conversation with our young neighbors just down the road who were trying to get a loan from a bank so they could buy a house.

    My neighbor: “The bank turned us down for a loan, but they passed us on to a mortgage broker who shopped around and found a lender who would give us the money.”

    Me: “So who will you be making the payments to?”

    My neighbor: “To the bank.”

    Me: “You know, don’t you, that the fact that the bank turned you down means they don’t think you are a good credit risk? They think you wouldn’t be able to pay the money back.”

    My neighbor: “I don’t understand it all, but they’re giving us the money.”

    Gotta confess I don’t understand it, either. If someone else is lending the money, why does the bank get the payments?

  345. 355 Jens
    September 27, 2008 at 19:32

    just listened tp Palin-I-am-the-mos-ignorrant-idiot-on-this-planet.

    she is dumb as a rock

  346. September 27, 2008 at 19:36

    Personally, If I could ask one question, it would not be about a direct political policy. It would be something like this:

    God and two of his closest archangels descends into the oval office one day. They hold the president captive with a request. God says, “These are two of my closest archangels. One holds a plan that will save humanity from my wrath and instill the free and fair democracy in the United States that will last for 1000 years. The other a plan that will hasten the path towards the Armageddon and the destruction of the US and all of its people for 1000 generations to com. One of my angle chiefs always lies, he has the inability to tell the truth. The other always tell the truth, he has the inability to lie. The Liar does not necessarily hold the plan for damnation, nor will I tell you which one does. They both know which plan is the one to offer salvation. You, Mr. President, may ask one question and one question only. Then you must choose a plan.”

    The candidates would be allowed to ask the moderator all they questions they want. The first one to offer to collaborate with the other to figure it out should get offered the presidency right away. This would show depth of thought and determination in strength.

  347. September 27, 2008 at 19:40

    Paul Harbin,

    Good question. I think every bill should have an hour at least yeilded to the public to call in and voice their concerns.

  348. 358 Bryan
    September 27, 2008 at 19:58

    Will Rhodes September 27, 2008 at 7:16 pm

    100% agree with you.

    Excuse me while I fall off my chair. Seriously though, the idea of a democratic socialism at street level (or any level) would only work if people accepted the concept of being equal and sharing resources equitably. Problem is, this is contrary to human nature. There will always be those who put their head above the crowd and strive for something more – whether for good or evil. The idea of “from each according to his ability; to each according to his need” has got to be the single most idiotic and damaging concept ever imposed on an unsuspecting public because besides destroying initiative, it is unworkable.

    Despite all its failings, capitalism is the only system in which people can be relatively free. Socialism and communism require dictators to keep the people in a state of subservient denial of their natural inclination for progress and achievement.

  349. 359 Julie P
    September 27, 2008 at 19:59

    @Jens,

    Don’t you just love the way she pronounces Iraq? It drives me nuts. Eye Raaack.

  350. 360 steve
    September 27, 2008 at 20:05

    This commercial shows the problem in America. Not being happy with you have, wanting bigger and better. Driving people to be financially irresponsible.

  351. 361 Paul Harbin - Waco, tx.
    September 27, 2008 at 20:36

    @ Will

    Have you seen the HBO documentary, Hacking Democracy? I find it very feasible, odd, and terrifying.

    @ Steve

    Have you seen the documentary, Maxed Out?

  352. 362 steve
    September 27, 2008 at 20:41

    @ paul

    Is it something I can get from netflix? If it’s about what I think it’s about, I think every American should be kidnapped and tied up and forced to watch something that spells out how irresponsible so many people are being.

  353. September 27, 2008 at 20:42

    Bryan

    I agreed 100% with the point you made and I quoted lol. I can’t say that I agree with you 100% of the time, but you have a different philosophical view than I.

    The idea of “from each according to his ability; to each according to his need” has got to be the single most idiotic and damaging concept ever imposed on an unsuspecting public because besides destroying initiative, it is unworkable.

    Like this, I disagree with you mainly, I could be wrong, is that I look at that as a positive thing, I suspect you look at it as a negative.

    If we look at what ability is in a much broader spectrum than just working in a GM factory floor to the need(s) of a person, Maslow, Herzbsberg et al, what is need and what is want. The need is plentiful – but the want is enormous. Where I see capitalism failing is it can give quite readily to the want, but very little to the need.

  354. September 27, 2008 at 20:45

    Paul

    Yes I have seen it – and, with the US relying so much on flawed technology, it is frighting!

  355. September 27, 2008 at 20:52

    254 jamily5 September 27, 2008 at 7:06 am
    There are some avenues of discussion that might not be worth pursuing, especially, when half of the discussion consists of heaps of insults added to previous heaps instead of an interactiive dialogue that takes the conversation forward.

    And, did you know that there was a time when Muslims were leaders in education: Math and Science?

    And then we apathetically sat on our laurels and expected people to kiss our feet.

    I wonder if the same could be said of other religious groups? Have the religiou people of the world allowed the secularists to take over intellectual developments?

    I think that there are openings for advancement in the fields of education techniques, media, and philosophy/logic, but we are so busy chasing after money and pointing back at our past that we cannot see what is available for our grasp in the future. I do not think that the first-generation Muslim immigrants to the West could offer anything. It seems to me that the have come here primarily to try to gain more wealth for themselves. They pour money into mosques as if that might even their balances, but so many of them continue to ignore religious and moral basics (in addition to their own families). Those among their children who are lucky enough to have any kind of spiritual awakenning have the opportunity of realising the kind of opportunity that certain academic fields offer to the worldwide Muslim community. So many of them, however, face family pressure to become doctors, real estate/insurance agents, engineers, lawyers, etc. Those seem to be the status positions that, if not acquired by the children, risk the loss of family name. It is a risk for young people to go off into fields that truly interest them and that might contrinute meaningfully to society and to Muslims around the world. I hope that more and more take that risk and break the current trend of intellectual stagnation in our midst.
    318

  356. 366 Bryan
    September 27, 2008 at 21:08

    Will, there are an enormous number of people on the planet who would be quite content to have their needs eternally supplied by someone else while they themselves put no more effort in than going to the dole office and holding their hand out for the cheque. (The UK, through the cumulative idiocy of successive idiotic governments, now finds itself a dole provider for untold thousands of people who have flocked to Britain for the handouts and have no intention of ever providing for themselves.)

    Tell such people that the only input that is required of them is that of their own ability and they will miraculously become quite incapacitated.

  357. 367 Paul Harbin - Waco, tx.
    September 27, 2008 at 21:20

    @ Steve

    I’m not sure about netflix, but I would imagine so. I got from my local hollywood video, although they don’t have sicko … which I would still like to see. And you would be correct that it’s about gross money I don’t have spending, and the aggressive high-risk lenders (in a sense) relentless pursuit of high-risk debt that will never be paid off so they can receive infinite payments in theory. We know how well that works out now….

  358. 368 Jens
    September 27, 2008 at 21:20

    julie p,

    she is truely terrible.

    will,

    did you hear, he had is bear joke yesterday in the debate. he just repeats himself over and over again. i thought obama was was way better

  359. 369 steve
    September 27, 2008 at 21:24

    @ Paul

    Not only does netflix have it, but you can also watch it online!

  360. 370 Dan
    September 27, 2008 at 21:33

    @Pink
    “There was a time when Mslims were leaders in……”
    WHO CARES???????
    It is an argument given to Muslims to repeat by their Imams so that liberal Westrerners will feel guilty.
    We live in a modern world where MUslims cannot adapt.

  361. September 27, 2008 at 21:41

    Jens

    I groaned when he came out with that tripe. And his ‘prisoner’ tripe, and his I know all the world leaders tripe.

    Ad Nausium!

  362. 372 steve
    September 27, 2008 at 21:45

    and “change” and “no more of the same” ad nausium. I didn’t expect Mccain to admit the real problem, but Obama didn’t either. THey’re going to just enable the irresponsibility. HOW IS THAT CHANGE?

  363. 373 Jens
    September 27, 2008 at 21:48

    will,

    yeah and his litle anecdotes blabla, it does not look well for america, if they make it. lead by a senile fool, who rpeats himself over and over again followed by moose-head, who cannot string a sentence together. the worl must be peeing itself looking at what we have to offer as best and brightest.

    i am actually scared of palin taking over…..if they make it

  364. 374 Jens
    September 27, 2008 at 21:51

    steve,

    obama buried maccain. maccain just looked like an old tired guy, who repeated himself over and over again. even his performance on forgein policy was as weak as bud light.

  365. 375 steve
    September 27, 2008 at 21:58

    @ Jens

    If Obama had broken down and cried you would have said Obama won. You are already decided, you were before the debate. An objective eye would think there’s not really a winner. They both did well.

  366. 376 Robert
    September 27, 2008 at 22:01

    Pink

    Engineers as a status position??????? I’m an engineer and I can assure you that we have no status compared to the others on the list. Most engineers leaving my university course go on into other fields. I stayed in the profession for one very simple reason, I love engineering.

    If I wanted status I would have gone and first done a PHD so I could call myself Dr and then entered a consultancy of some sort.

  367. 377 Jens
    September 27, 2008 at 22:09

    steve,

    no, i would have thought he is a cry baby and not fit to run the country.

    i did not think maccain did well, and so did the people who were polled. he just repeats the same stuff and that makes him look old and tired. his bear and paternity joke was not funny the first time around, now it just sounds and tasts like cold old coffee. it certainly does not sound like a maverik, it sounds like a dullard and don’t get me started un the muppet he selected. she cannot finish a sentence that makes sense.

    i think it is shocking that maccain is still in with a chance

  368. 378 Jens
    September 27, 2008 at 22:12

    robert,

    what kind of consultancy, i have Dr and Prof in front of my name and don’t really think it gives me any status…it just gives me some academmic credential.

  369. 379 Robert
    September 27, 2008 at 22:24

    Jens

    If I was going for the status play it would be management/business consultancy. It’s an industry in which having a PHD does carry some weight. I think the firms like to show off they have PHD’s on the books to clients.

    But I work on the basis that you spend a 1/3 of your life at work, and you must find a job you like doing. Hence why I’m not in consultancy, my disposition is not simply to tell somebody there is a problem but to fix it if I can myself, hence why I like engineering so much.

  370. 380 steve
    September 27, 2008 at 22:25

    @ Jens

    I guess we watched a different debate. I thought both of them did an excellent job. I don’t choose to focus on what you do, Obama was bumbling and stuttered, but who cares? It’s the messages they are saying that’s important.

  371. 381 steve
    September 27, 2008 at 22:27

    More genY sociopathy

    http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/09/27/implant.hitmen.reut/index.html

    Stuff like this will be quite common in the future because these kids are raised so horribly.

  372. 382 Jens
    September 27, 2008 at 22:37

    steve,

    at least maccain is capable of speaking, i give that to him. yes i am biased, because i cannot stand palin. i would be a lot less partisan if he would not have chosen the most stupid person in this country. as i said before, i wish maccain would have won the nomination 8 years ago.

    the funny thing with the debate was that maccain actually sounded more aloof/arrogant and professorial than obama. i was actually worried that obama would sound elitist, but i don’t think he came accross like that, which is good.

  373. 383 viola
    September 27, 2008 at 22:43

    If McCain looked like a tired old guy because he repeated what he has said in the past, what’s Obama’s excuse?

  374. 384 Jennifer
    September 27, 2008 at 22:47

    When you made the statement “in the U.S., looking someone in the eyes is a show of confidence and respect” you were generalizing American people. America is a melting pot of different races and cultures. There are similarities that make us the same but there are also differences that make us diverse. I am taking it from your generalization that you think there are no Native Americans in the U.S.? That is inaccurate. As I said, I am Cherokee (Native American) and I live in the U.S. In my culture, it is offensive and impolite to stare directly at a person for an extended period of time. Native Americans are in no way a people lacking in confidence and are definitely not insecure in who they are people. It is simply a mannerism. It varies from person to person. To say that it is the American way to be a certain way is very narrow minded.

    I took the liberty of googling a few websites for you that will give you information on not just Native Americans but also public speaking and cultural sensitivity. We aren’t called “the melting pot” for no reason! 😀

    http://www.aresearchguide.com/3tips.html
    http://honolulu.hawaii.edu/intranet/committees/FacDevCom/guidebk/teachtip/culture1.htm
    http://nativeamericans.com/
    http://cherokeehistory.com/
    http://www.bluecorncomics.com/stbasics.htm

    I do agree with you that the President of the U.S. should have poise and exude leadership. I didn’t see John McCain staring at the floor during the debate or cowed in the corner sucking his thumb; he was looking at the moderator; who was asking him questions. McCain was very knowledgeable. Obama faltered many times and did just as I thought he would-gave a pretty word spill. I definitely didn’t see any poise from him last night!

    @Jamily5

    I think everyone has that problem starting out but the more reports/presentations you give the easier it gets. You are welcome to deduct points if you like! 🙂

  375. 385 viola
    September 27, 2008 at 22:50

    Here we go with the “She talks funny” stuff. Please stop making fun of others’ accents and pronunciation.

  376. 386 Robert
    September 27, 2008 at 23:05

    Wasn’t there just a comment from Jennifer that has now disappeared?

  377. 387 Jens
    September 27, 2008 at 23:08

    viola,

    i could not care about her accent, BUT she is dumb as a rock. my little toe has more brains than she has.

    just watch the very very few interviews she has give. no wonder they keep er locked away.

  378. 388 Jennifer
    September 27, 2008 at 23:17

    @ Robert

    Re: The debate format

    I thought your ideas for a new format were great. It was as suspenseful as a debate could be I guess-I enjoyed watching it while I used my footspa! 😉 It would be great if the debate agenda was planned by the people and we could ask the questions. It would be nice to see how they cook under pressure! haha I would add some questions for both Cindy McCain and Michelle Obama to discuss……..I think that would be pretty interesting to say the least. 😀

  379. 389 Bert
    September 27, 2008 at 23:19

    Pink, do you mean there was a time when MIDDLE EASTERNERS were leaders in math and science?

    True.

    And then Islam happened.

    But why dwell on this? Why dwell on religions in general? It’s time we quit pandering to this one religion, as we have long quit pandering to all the others, and think about things we can actually do.

    Look through the posts on WHYS and see whether any other religion is mentioned as often as Islam.

    People will make up whatever belief structure they like. The important thing is for people to keep a perspective. Whatever they invent in terms of the supernatural is only their invention. So believe whatever you like, but don’t get in the way of the “truth” that others might invent.

    If immigrants can’t manage to live within the mores of their new host culture, they should look (and go) elsewhere. It seems like common sense. Western culture has long stopped making a big deal about individual religious beliefs.

  380. 390 Jennifer
    September 27, 2008 at 23:24

    @ Viola

    Re: Funny Accents

    It’s just knit-picking. I used to have a habit of saying cigarettes…..cugarettes…..I guess it was more of my accent…….everyone has one…they just don’t realize it. :D;)

  381. September 27, 2008 at 23:31

    376 Robert September 27, 2008 at 10:01 pm
    Engineers as a status position? I’m an engineer and I can assure you that we have no status compared to the others on the list.

    It works itself out differently somehow in the mind of the average Desi parent. Of course, many youth who are pushed into science end up working with computers, but we also have thsoe who work for the oil corporations.

  382. 392 Robert
    September 27, 2008 at 23:40

    So what is better in your opinion the ones who work with computers or the ones with the oil companies?

  383. 393 John in Salem
    September 28, 2008 at 00:00

    re: the debate
    I keep hearing people say they are undecided and to them I would like to say this…
    If you honestly and truly do not know who you want to vote for at this point then please stay home on election day and leave the voting to people who have been conscious for the last 8 years.

  384. 394 Dan
    September 28, 2008 at 00:31

    @Pink
    Being an Engineer your stock just went skyrocketing with me. As an engineer we understand how things work and we are truly expert at problem solving. Know that as an engineer the world is a better place for the technologicical advantages we gave it.
    I am a Graduate Electrical Engineer but now have my own business.
    Be PROUD to be an Engineer…..we are the TOP of the food chain!!!

  385. 395 steve
    September 28, 2008 at 00:32

    Did any of you privileged to live north of the mason dixon line get to watch the entire Michigan game? I was in absolute hell not being able to watch it until the middle of the 4th quarter when they started showing it here. Michigan was down 19-0 and came back to win 27-25 against #9 Wisconsin!

    Nobody expected Michigan to win this game!

  386. 396 steve
    September 28, 2008 at 00:34

    Speaking of accents, people on air have said some of the nastiest comments I’ve ever heard. ON some show a while ago, there was a caller with a very strong southern accent, he knew his stuff, but some other guest called him a stupid redneck or something like that. Really pissed me off.

  387. September 28, 2008 at 00:36

    Robert, a person could be cleaning the toilets at the mosque, and I would not care. What matters to me is the dedication that one has to his religious values and the sincerity with which he interacts with others. Call me weird, but I rather enjoy cleaning windows, straightening books, and folding prayer shawls at the mosque.

    My personal bias is the person who works with computers. I like them better than oil.

  388. 398 Paul Harbin - Waco, tx.
    September 28, 2008 at 00:55

    I think it’s pretty hard to deny, that for nearly the entire first hour that McCain looked like wanted to leave. I also really liked it when he address the energy issue to the effect of …. “Yeah we need solar, wind, and water power …. and all that”
    I liked it how he never mentioned me, the middle class. I also liked how he pointed out how he has been around for a while, has a long record, and for some reason, this year was just too much. He couldn’t take anymore and after nearly 30 years …
    he is suddenly going to change everything … with the aid of a woman that reminds me of my favorite waitress at my local waffle house.

  389. 399 Julie P
    September 28, 2008 at 01:01

    @Steve,

    Concerning accents.

    My job requires that I handle company accounts, which means I speak with people all over the country. Every region has their accents, with some people having very strong regional accents. I think some people, and this is just a personal observation, have voices that would grate anyone’s nerves regardless, combine it with a strong regional accent and it gets amplified.

    In college I had two professors who were from the rural south. One is a good ol’ boy and is proud of it. If you ran into him on the street you would never know he has a doctorate degree judging by his accent and the way he looks, but he is a smart as whip. He was one of my more difficult professors. He is a grammar Nazi. We still talk. And he still expects me to remember everything he taught me in the two classes I took with him.

    The other professor came from a share cropper background. That man was the most on the ball person I have ever met, with a thick southern accent. He came from poverty and is a published author and research professor in organizational behavior. From poverty he went on to get a PhD.D. from Yale. He gives great advice as an adviser. Those who use him and take his advice often times end up going to Ivy League colleges for post graduate work, some even have gotten PhD.D.s from Yale. The man is an inspiration.

  390. 400 Kelsie in Houston
    September 28, 2008 at 01:07

    Evening all!

    I wonder if Mr McCain or Mr Obama had these people in mind during the debate’s discussion about the economy:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7585696.stm

  391. 401 Roberto
    September 28, 2008 at 01:09

    RE “”If you honestly and truly do not know who you want to vote for at this point then please stay home on election day and leave the voting to people who have been conscious for the last 8 years.””
    ============================================================

    ——– My dear Mr Salem, decorum restrains my response somewhat, but please do consider that those holding superior political views to your would never consider voting early or making a decision when the candidates have not been fully vetted yet.

    I understand that large numbers of voters will be running off on election day half cocked and half baked as is their right, but I and many others don’t show our cards until the final call is sounded.

  392. 402 Roberto
    September 28, 2008 at 01:48

    RE i could not care about her accent, BUT she is dumb as a rock. my little toe has more brains than she has.
    ————————————————————————————————–

    —— Dear Mr Jens, I doubt your little toe has this nasty, unhealthy predisposition to eviscerate Ms Palin at every opportunity.

    By most all accounts and on short notice, she hit all her marks at the republican convention and completely altered the nature of the campaign. She has one of the highest popularity numbers of any of the governors and has done nothing to you or this country.

    Please do allow your little toe to take over some of your duties. Sometimes less is more

  393. 403 steve
    September 28, 2008 at 01:56

    @ Julie

    If you ever were to study for the bar exam, there’s a professor Epstein, I believe from Alabama, and you see this Jewish guy, you’d expect him to sound like Woodie Allen or something, but he had one of the strongest southern accents I had ever heard. It reminded me of a time when I went down to visit my friends at NC State as they began college, as mine began weeks later, and I sat in on one of there classes. The instructer walked in, Indian, wearing tradiational indian woman’s clothes, and when she opened her mouth, very strong southern accent. Didn’t expect that.

  394. 404 Julie P
    September 28, 2008 at 02:07

    @Steve,

    Having lived in the south now for nearly half my life natives of the region swear up and down that there are several different types of southern accents. They can even tell which state they come from. So far, the strong southern accents I can differentiate between are rural southern accents, which most people are familiar with and it’s probably the least liked, the genteel southern accent that I think comes from ‘well heeled’ plantation owners, and Cajun accents.

    It’s a trip hearing southern accents coming out of some people’s mouths, especially those who do not fit the southern profile.

    My family and friends back in Wisconsin are very surprised that I have not picked up a southern accent. Atlanta is a transplant city, with people moving here from all over the country and the world. Although I have not picked up a southern accent my Midwestern twang has diminished.

  395. 405 steve
    September 28, 2008 at 02:14

    @ Julie

    I had a British-born professor in College and he probably lived in the US for 20 years and he lost most of his accent. My aunt on the other hand has one of the worst boston accents and she hasn’t lived in Boston or even New England for over 50 years.

  396. 406 Jonathan
    September 28, 2008 at 02:14

    I unwisely watched the debate on one network, but just saw a repeat showing of it on C-SPAN, and it was a revelation because it was in split-screen. Makes a huge difference. Also good to see a second time because one misses stuff the first time around.

    “STELLA!” was not Paul Newman’s line but Marlon Brando’s.

    I agree it’s a breach of privacy that registration records are public and party-affiliated. But I know the reason: it’s to do with primaries. In some states, a voter is only allowed to vote in the primary of one’s declared party, the idea being that one otherwise could sabotage the opposing party by voting for a less appealing candidate in their primary, thus forcing them to run a “dog” in the general election. Actually, that still doesn’t explain why they’re public; I don’t think they should be. Nor should DMV and real estate ownership. Why is it anyone’s business?

  397. 407 Julie P
    September 28, 2008 at 02:24

    @Steve,

    Accents I think that will never go away come from Boston, Queens, and Brooklyn, even if they relocate. Wow! Those are very distinct and very ingrained.

  398. 408 Amy
    September 28, 2008 at 02:26

    Jonathan,

    You are right – it was Marlon Brando’s line. I guess I fell into the trap of confusing the two like so many people did when Newman was younger. When people asked him for an autograph, he would sign it Marlon Brando because so many people got them mixed up.

  399. 409 steve
    September 28, 2008 at 02:27

    LOL. My mom is from Queens and she left in the 1960s and still has it.

    I think that’s an east coast accent, Baltimore (in the past) , South Philadelphia and Brooklyn have the same exact accent.

  400. 410 Amy
    September 28, 2008 at 02:29

    Julie & Steve,

    My freshman year at college, my roommate was of Chinese descent. The first time I met her father I was blown away. He was born and raised in Texas and had the strongest accent even though he had been in California for over 30 years. I guess is goes to show that you can’t judge a book by it’s cover!

    BTW, Steve – congrats on the Michigan victory. We’re not going to talk about my team.

  401. 411 steve
    September 28, 2008 at 02:38

    @ Amy

    Thanks, not like I had anything to do with the win, but especially after the game wasn’t on here, and seeing them down 19-0 at halftime, I figured it was going to be a slaughter. But then again, it was the bigten home opener, michigan never loses the big ten home opener. So the largest comeback in Michigan stadium history took place today and #9 fell to unranked michigan. I doubt michigan will be ranked after this, but I am a lot more confident about their chances. I thought looking at their schedule that honestly there only possible other win would be Toledo. Everyone in the Big Ten looks really strong. Even Northwestern is 5-0 right now. Michigan State beat the pants off Notre Dame, who beat Michigan badly..

  402. 412 Jonathan
    September 28, 2008 at 02:42

    @Amy~

    Paul Newman used to sign “Marlon Brando” for his authograph?? That’s so funny!

    Not too many people got them confused later in life though, I’d imagine. Consequences of Marlon Brando’s self-described preference for ice cream over sex. Self-fulfilling, too, after a while. Can’t see it, myself, but it’s a close call, especially Ben&Jerry’s pistachio. Mmmm!

  403. 413 Julie P
    September 28, 2008 at 02:43

    @Steve,

    I’m curious, do you know anything about the Wisconsin Badgers? I recall they won the Rose Bowl one year. Being a none sports type person I don’t keep up with it.

  404. September 28, 2008 at 02:44

    @Sarah Palin and her Accent,

    The problem is she has nothing else to question or discuss. She has no experience, no thoughts of her own, and will repeat the same lie in the face of obvious evidence. They won’t let the press interview her. They only let silent cameras roll of her meeting world leaders, she has held no press conferences, she wasn’t a primary nominee so we have never seen her debate or outline her platform. So the only thing to look at is her personal issues. Oh yeah, and the fact that she is dumb as a box of rocks. but she sure is pur-ty.

    I think it was great how McCain offered to bump the VP debate to reschedule last nights debate. That was fear if I have ever heard of it.

  405. 415 Roberto
    September 28, 2008 at 02:53

    RE “”Let’s see how many google hits we can do proving that McCain is a sexist, egotistical, blathering idiot?””
    ——————————————————————————————————-

    ——- About the same number as you can find Obama being a black supremacist Muslim or proving the Holocaust never happened.

    Go on utube and search for “drunken b88888s” and you will quickly see footage proving what women are.

    Better yet, search for “blithering idiot” on utube, and see how many times Obama’s name pops up.

    Here’s one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsJLdE9DELs

    We see it on the internet, so it must be true, eh?

    Brilliant!!

  406. 416 Jennifer
    September 28, 2008 at 02:54

    Splitting this up to fix the length/editing issue

    @ Jessica

    When you made the statement “in the U.S., looking someone in the eyes is a show of confidence and respect” you were generalizing American people. America is a melting pot of different races and cultures. There are similarities that make us the same but there are also differences that make us diverse. I am taking it from your generalization that you think there are no Native Americans in the U.S.? That is inaccurate. As I said, I am Cherokee (Native American) and I live in the U.S. In my culture, it is offensive and impolite to stare directly at a person for an extended period of time. Native Americans are in no way a people lacking in confidence and are definitely not insecure in who they are people. It is simply a mannerism. It varies from person to person. To say that it is the American way to be a certain way is very narrow minded.

    I took the liberty of googling a few websites for you that will give you information on not just Native Americans but also public speaking and cultural sensitivity. We aren’t called “the melting pot” for no reason! 😀

  407. 417 Bob in Queensland
    September 28, 2008 at 02:55

    Good morning all!

    I’m in tea and reading phase but thought I should just let you know I’m around.

    A bit earlier, Steve posted something I found a bit thought provoking:

    This commercial shows the problem in America. Not being happy with you have, wanting bigger and better. Driving people to be financially irresponsible.

    I’m not necessarily disagreeing but it occurred you could also change this to:

    This commercial shows what makes America great. Not being happy with what you have, wanting bigger and better. Driving people to work harder and striving to achieve something.”

    ….in short, the “American Dream”. What is it that causes some people to want to work harder to achieve something more…and others to act in the way Steve describes? For every entrepreneur who starts a business and works all hours to make it a success, there are others who want things handed to them (and, of course, others who work hard but make the wrong decisions and end up with nothing).

    Yeah, I know. I always get philosophical on a Sunday morning in the sun.

  408. 418 Jennifer
    September 28, 2008 at 02:55

    @ Jessica

    Links:
    http://www.aresearchguide.com/3tips.html
    http://honolulu.hawaii.edu/intranet/committees/FacDevCom/guidebk/teachtip/culture1.htm
    http://nativeamericans.com/
    http://cherokeehistory.com/
    http://www.bluecorncomics.com/stbasics.htm

    I do agree with you that the President of the U.S. should have poise and exude leadership. I didn’t see John McCain staring at the floor during the debate or cowed in the corner sucking his thumb; he was looking at the moderator; who was asking him questions. McCain was very knowledgeable. Obama faltered many times and did just as I thought he would-gave a pretty word spill. I definitely didn’t see any poise from him last night!

  409. 419 Amy
    September 28, 2008 at 02:57

    Jonathan,

    Yes, Paul Newman signed Marlon Brando but when they were much younger. They did look very similar and both were “method” actors. As they aged, there was NO way you could confuse the two 🙂

    If we are talking Ben & Jerry’s, Cherry Garcia is pretty good.

  410. September 28, 2008 at 02:58

    Does this bother anybody else. What we have seen especially with the appointment of Ms. Palin to the VP position is that anybody with little know no background or education can potentially end up in the highest offices of our land if they have luck and the right marketing mix. So does it scare anybody else that these people who come from such a wide variety of backgrounds, most of them are not economics majors. Many of them probably barely the economics courses that they took. Yet they are in a closed room, void of any economics experts, determining the fate of our economy?

    I would love to see new coverage of, “Yale and Harvard economics professors who have been predicting this collapse for at least 4 years have just entered the capital building to aid in the discussion of the various bills on the table.” A draft aught to be put out for these guys. Their country needs them now.

  411. 421 steve
    September 28, 2008 at 02:59

    @ Amy

    Yes, Wisconsin has won the Rose Bowl before, last time in 2000

  412. 422 Amy
    September 28, 2008 at 03:00

    Julie,

    The Badgers won the Rose Bowl in 1999 and 2000. With Mom living there now, she does routinely cheer for them. It’s the only Wisconsin team though…..

  413. 423 Julie P
    September 28, 2008 at 03:02

    @Amy and Steve,

    It’s been that long! Wow! Time sure does fly!

  414. 424 jamily5
    September 28, 2008 at 03:49

    Indiana makes you register with party affiliation.
    I can’t stand that, but I want to vote.

  415. 425 jamily5
    September 28, 2008 at 03:50

    @Jennifer:
    I think everyone has that problem starting out but the more reports/presentations you give the easier it gets. You are welcome to deduct points if you like!
    Well, Since I am blind and have two artificial eyes, I doubt that my eye contacting skills will improve anytime soon.
    (smile)

  416. 426 Bob in Queensland
    September 28, 2008 at 03:54

    Out of curiosity, what’s the rationale for asking party affiliation when you register to vote? And what happens if you don’t support one of the two main parties?

  417. 427 jamily5
    September 28, 2008 at 03:56

    @Viola,
    Actually, it is not her accent. There is a difference between one’s accent and mispronunciation.
    It bothers me when people can’t/won’t pronounce names correctly.
    Iran and Iraq are two of the most mispronounced names.
    People call them:
    “eye-ran,” and “eye-rack.”
    instead of:
    “eer-ron,” and “eerok.”
    I am particular about first names and last names, as well.
    I ask someone to pronounce their name and try to pronounce it the way that they do.
    I think that it is just respectful!

    What if international politicians started pronouncing “America,” “amareeka,” with the accent on the second syllable. And actually, in some language, I forget which (maybe it is a name origin) “amar,” means “life,” and “rica,” means “rich,” in Spanish.
    (smiles at the irony).

  418. 428 jamily5
    September 28, 2008 at 03:58

    @Julie P. I have neighbors with strong northern Wisconsin accents. Indiana is kind of a nutral state: not as southern as Kentucky, but not as Northern as Michigan and Wisconsin and has a different accent than Chicagoans, altogether.
    We sound hickish to those from Michigan and Wisconsin and we sound Northern to those who are from Kentucky, AR, TN, etc.

  419. 429 Julie P
    September 28, 2008 at 04:05

    @Jamily5,

    I’ve talked with folks from southern Indiana who sound just as southern as any native of Georgia, yet I’ve talked with those from northern Indiana who don’t sound any different than those from Milwaukee. Now I did talk with an aunt of mine who lives in northwestern Wisconsin once. When she picked up the phone and spoke her accent was so pronounced she sounded like a man. I didn’t say a word.

  420. 430 jamily5
    September 28, 2008 at 04:05

    @Bob, For every entrepreneur who starts a business and works all hours to make it a success, there are others who want things handed to them (and,
    of course, others who work hard but make the wrong decisions and end up with nothing).
    Then, there are those who work hard every day and make the best decisions, still their work does not yield the dream’s results.
    And, there are others who have no dream at all and are benefitting from the labor of others: just simply by chance or birth.

  421. 431 Julie P
    September 28, 2008 at 04:08

    @Bob,

    When I registered to vote in Wisconsin I don’t remember picking a party affiliation and I was able to register at the polls. However, when I registered in Georgia I had to do it by a certain date and I had to choose a party. Choosing a party allows a person to vote in a primary. If you do not choose a party, then you are not allowed to vote in a primary. When I go to vote my ballot shows only the Democratic candidates. I cannot vote for any other party in a primary.

  422. 432 jamily5
    September 28, 2008 at 04:09

    @Bob,
    For every entrepreneur who starts a business and works all hours to make it a success, there are others who want things handed to them (and,
    of course, others who work hard but make the wrong decisions and end up with nothing).
    Then, there are those who work hard and make the right decisions, yet their efforts don’t yield the intended results. And, there are those who have all opportunities and finances without even having a dream at all. They just got to cash in on someone else’s dream.

  423. 433 jamily5
    September 28, 2008 at 04:13

    @Julie P. (smile) Yes, that is true.
    And, sorry for doubleposting. (Is that a word)? When I submitted the first post, my browser said that the web page could not be displayed, so I thought that I had to send it again.

  424. 434 Bob in Queensland
    September 28, 2008 at 04:21

    @ Julie P

    For the primaries that makes absolute sense to me. However, requiring an affiliation to vote in the main election sounds very wrong to me unless I’m missing an historic subtlety of the American system here.

  425. 435 Julie P
    September 28, 2008 at 04:25

    @Bob,

    I have a friend who is registered to vote in North Carolina. She registered as an independent, meaning she does not have a party affiliation, but she can vote in the General Election.

  426. 436 Julie P
    September 28, 2008 at 04:26

    @Jamiy5,

    Word Press can be strange sometimes. It’s all good.

  427. 437 Bob in Queensland
    September 28, 2008 at 04:34

    @ Julie P

    I suppose if they’re just trying to make one registration cover both the primaries and the “real” elections AND they accept “independent” as a choice then that’s all fine.

    The American system of primaries is pretty much unique in the world as far as I know. In any other country I know, the selection of a candidae (for whatever office) is restricted to actual paid-up party members rather than people who just declare themselves supporters. This must make an American candidate somewhat more representative–but it also stretches your electoral process to a rather ridiculous duration!

  428. 438 Jessica in NYC
    September 28, 2008 at 04:38

    @ Bryan & Amy

    Nope, I wasn’t booing & laughing at the debate comment. It was at the joke:

    “President Clinton is a downright liar. Nixon was also a liar, but at least he had the decency to twitch a little.”

  429. September 28, 2008 at 04:40

    406 Jonathan September 28, 2008 at 2:14 am
    In some states, a voter is only allowed to vote in the primary of one’s declared party, the idea being that one otherwise could sabotage the opposing party by voting for a less appealing candidate in their primary, thus forcing them to run a “dog” in the general election.

    Oh, come on, that is the fun of it all! Actually, I voted in the other paty's primary because I wanted to take part in the local elections. I am glad that I did. Anyway, my guys will still be there for me in November when my vote for them really counts. That is another nice thing about where I live. A person can practically count on the local election turning out a certain way. We are so predictable out here.

    Actually, that still doesn’t explain why they’re public; I don’t think they should be.

    Tellum!

  430. September 28, 2008 at 04:45

    Cole slaw beats out ice cream or chips as a snack any day! (Just had to say that.)

    428 jamily5 September 28, 2008 at 3:56 am
    Iran and Iraq are two of the most mispronounced names. People call them: “eye-ran,” and “eye-rack.” instead of: “eer-ron,” and “eerok.”

    I know, and I hate it! I did not run from a rock! (That is the joke that I make about people's mispronunciation of Iran and Iraq. Actually, the two sound different in Arabic. The "i" of "Iraq" is preceded by an Arabic consonant that is a strong glottal stop; and it is a short "i". The "i" of Iran is like a long "e" and has no glottal stop. But all that I ask is that people pronounce both of them with a short "i". It just makes life easier.

    What if international politicians started pronouncing “America,” “amareeka,” with the accent on the second syllable.

    Or, worse yet, "um-ree-ka" like they in those countries where it is the adjective before "shaytan". Roll the "r" for added effect.

    And actually, in some language, I forget which (maybe it is a name origin) “amar,” means “life”…

    Probably Arabic. People call their spouses "`umri", which means "my life." And that one has the glotall stop.

  431. 441 Bryan
    September 28, 2008 at 04:45

    Jennifer September 27, 2008 at 10:47 pm

    In my culture, it is offensive and impolite to stare directly at a person for an extended period of time.

    Good point. Cultural differences are important. There are black South Africans who cannot understand the white man who holds the door open for a woman so that she can enter a restaurant before him. They regard that man as a coward since he is ushering his woman into a strange place to face any danger first.

    There is another point here regarding eye contact. Some people find it easier to marshal their thoughts when they are not looking at their adversary in a debate. Obama had obviously been coached in presentation and body language. McCain had no such concerns and therefore came across as more down to earth and sincere. But since so many people are fooled by image, I regard the presentation as a draw.

    Jens September 27, 2008 at 10:09 pm,

    I watched the whole debate quite closely online and I don’t recall this “bear and paternity” joke. It seems that you are looking for points because you want McCain to fail. I also don’t recall McCain repeating himself during the debate. And if he is repeating what he has said before the debate, what’s wrong with that?

    OK, I’m biased against Obama because he has an extremely suspect history but I try not to let my bias cloud my judgement. I could see that debate was pretty even.

    (Hell, even some BBC journalists think it was a draw and they can’t be wrong, can they?)

    Dan September 28, 2008 at 12:31 am,

    It ain’t Pink who’s the engineer, it’s Robert.

  432. 442 Julie P
    September 28, 2008 at 04:50

    @Bob,

    First the electoral college was devised by our Founding Fathers basing each vote as a weighted average, so that large states would not dominate small states. The two party system that we have developed from Jefferson and Adams feud, and the Jackson/Adams Jr. dispute. There were other parties in the 19th Century, like the Whigs and Do Nothings, but they either collapsed or evolved into the parties that we have. There have been other parties that sprung up, but have fell by the wayside. Jefferson and Jackson are considered to be the founders of the Democratic Party. Every January Democrats have a Jefferson Jackson Party. The Republican Party was founded in Appleton, Wisconsin and Lincoln was the first candidate from that party. I believe that our election process is a result of our evolutionary process of our parties.

    Early on we used to vote for whomever ran and there more than two candidates. Whoever placed first was the president and then the second place person became the VP. VP candidates are a recent development of the 20th Century.

    I agree that our election process is much too long. It seems to me that we start looking for potential candidates two or three years before the next election, then two years before there is the exploratory committees, which is a signal that person will probably make a run for office. It is also a time for the potential candidate to see if they can raise enough money to make the run. Then there are the primaries and finally the election. Deep sigh. It gets tiresome.

    If I missed anything, please feel free to add.

  433. 443 Bryan
    September 28, 2008 at 05:09

    Jessica in NYC September 28, 2008 at 4:38 am,

    I suppose I can conclude that you are a Clinton fan. I’m not. I ain’t got much respect for someone who cheats on his wife and then lies about it to the entire nation with a straight face:

    I did not have sex with that woman…Ms Lewinsky.

    Right. I wonder what presidential duties Bill neglected as he was lusting after Monica.

  434. 444 jamily5
    September 28, 2008 at 05:11

    McCain is no spring chicken, surely he was coached on public speaking and audience and body language. How many speeches has he given????

  435. 445 Bryan
    September 28, 2008 at 05:29

    Dunno. My impression is that he probably resisted coaching, preferring to speak naturally. That would suit the maverick in him.

  436. 446 Bob in Queensland
    September 28, 2008 at 05:34

    @ Bryan

    My impression is that McCain has been coached…but WELL coached so he looks rather more natural than Obama.

    Certainly both candidates were using the tricks that are taught at presentation/body language classes.

  437. September 28, 2008 at 05:55

    435 Bob in Queensland September 28, 2008 at 4:21 am
    For the primaries that makes absolute sense to me.

    Not to me. Green Party candidates only run for some offices. I want to be able to participate in the election process for all offices, not just some of them.

  438. 448 Jonathan
    September 28, 2008 at 06:01

    Bryan, you are, as always, insightful and correct. Sexual conduct is absolutely the most important thing a president can lie about, and nothing could be more relevant to credibility or to conduct in office. By way of example, we have the incumbent, who has so degraded his credibility by lying about things like wars that now, when there really is a crisis in financial markets that could bring on a global depression, neither Congress nor the public is ready to believe him.

    Interestingly, his sex life has never, as far as I know, been in question.

  439. 449 Bryan
    September 28, 2008 at 06:03

    Bob in Queensland September 28, 2008 at 5:34 am,

    Evidence, Bob, evidence. I don’t recall McCain looking at Obama once during the entire story, except at the end when they shook hands. That’s coaching?

  440. 450 Tom D Ford
    September 28, 2008 at 06:16

    @ Pangolin-California September 26, 2008 at 6:26 am

    I read your post.

  441. September 28, 2008 at 06:16

    Re: Debates and body language

    Last night after the debates I watched cable tv and NightLine . They all they did postmortems on the debates. Many cable pundits were shocked by the way McC didnt even look at O. Some commented that his body was even turned away. Some though thought it showed strength while others thought weakness. I thought weakness, and disrespect also. It was weirdness what ever McC’s intention.

    I know McC has had cancer more than once, but his whiteness and age really didn’t contrast well to O’s fitness and bubbly good health. Many presidents wear down fast in the White House… Bush has taken a beating imo and looked weak when he was asking for support the other night. McC’s isn’t strong enough to be President. He is cranky, and weird.

  442. 452 Bryan
    September 28, 2008 at 06:17

    Jonathan September 28, 2008 at 6:01 am,

    You may even have a point but I’m not prepared to go hunting for it through the sarcasm and the insult.

  443. 453 Bob in Queensland
    September 28, 2008 at 06:17

    @ Bryan

    The first thing to watch when looking for evidence of coaching in presentation skills is the hands. McCain’s were very controlled and deliberate, generally on the podium (the “keep me out of trouble” position except when doing a very deliberate open-palm “trust me” gestures for emphasis. All classic stuff.

    There was one point I recall where he very nearly made a fist to hit the desk for empahsis (probably a natural instinct) but, with the hand half closed you can see him convert it to an open palm, “I’m being honest and open” gesture.

    None of this is meant to be a criticism of McCain. I doubt there’s any prominent politician anywhere who HASN’T had such coaching–and McCain does it well.

    Obama, on the other hand seemed like he needed a bit more work…and this from somebody who is disposed to support him. A few too many nose-stroking “I’m ill at ease” gestures.

  444. 454 Bryan
    September 28, 2008 at 06:32

    portlandmike September 28, 2008 at 6:16 am,

    You could be right. Image counts for a lot and Obama could swing it on his youth, fitness and stronger, more relaxed image.

    Meanwhile:

    Gov. Matt Blunt Statement on Obama Campaign’s Abusive Use of Missouri Law Enforcement

    JEFFERSON CITY – Gov. Matt Blunt today issued the following statement on news reports that have exposed plans by U.S. Senator Barack Obama to use Missouri law enforcement to threaten and intimidate his critics.

    “St. Louis County Circuit Attorney Bob McCulloch, St. Louis City Circuit Attorney Jennifer Joyce, Jefferson County Sheriff Glenn Boyer, and Obama and the leader of his Missouri campaign Senator Claire McCaskill have attached the stench of police state tactics to the Obama-Biden campaign.

    “What Senator Obama and his helpers are doing is scandalous beyond words, the party that claims to be the party of Thomas Jefferson is abusing the justice system and offices of public trust to silence political criticism with threats of prosecution and criminal punishment….

    http://governor.mo.gov/cgi-bin/coranto/viewnews.cgi?id=EkkkVFulkpOzXqGMaj&style=Default+News+Style&tmpl=newsitem

    Hmmmmm. I wonder what my learned colleagues on this blog have to say about this.

  445. 455 Tom D Ford
    September 28, 2008 at 06:45

    @ Lubna September 26, 2008 at 10:06 pm

    “Hi gang ! :-)… I do have the absolute right to stand up and ask from all ordinary Americans and Westerners to kneel and apologise to me and to my Iraq …”

    I just did.

    I wish that Bush/Cheney will be brought to justice in the US Congress and the ICC.

    I am sorry, Lubna, I wish that all people who commit War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity be brought to justice, but I most wish that those Crimes be prevented.

  446. 456 Bryan
    September 28, 2008 at 06:50

    Bob in Queensland September 28, 2008 at 6:17 am,

    Interesting. But what about the apparent refusal to look at Obama. Surely that can’t be coaching. Many, like Portland Mike, would interpret that to be a sign of arrogant disdain. I’m half-inclined to come to the same conclusion though, as I said, that could just be the way McCain marshals his thoughts in a debate.

    A friend once gave a presentation in which he nodded frequently at the audience, as if to emphasize his points. When I mentioned it, it turned out that he’d been rather nervous and completely unaware that he’d been doing it. Are we not at risk here of assuming something is the result of coaching when it is simply an unconscious mannerism?

  447. 457 Jonathan
    September 28, 2008 at 07:04

    @Julie P~

    You sure about that “Do-Nothing” party? I knew about the “Know-Nothing” party, an equally improbable name.

    Of course, I don’t know everything…

  448. 458 Bob in Queensland
    September 28, 2008 at 07:05

    @ Bryan

    My body language consultant* has this to say about the looking/not looking debate:

    McCain’s failure to look at Obama was almost certainly a natural (i.e. not coached) trait that indicates he does feel superior to Obama and feels the “right” of his views means there is nothing to debate. Obama looking at McCain was also probably natural and, along with a number of other mannerisms and traits, can be taken as evidence that Obama feels he is McCain’s equal and is willing to engage him in debate rather than simply try to dominate.

    *said “consultant” is my wife who has a doctorate in psychology and who has actually worked giving training in this area…mainly to industry executives who are expected to represent their companies but also to members of the judiciary in how to interpret body language.

  449. 459 Tom D Ford
    September 28, 2008 at 07:10

    @ selena in Canada September 27, 2008 at 12:05 am

    ” …. I really should be scared to death to write some of the things I write. Good thing I am not running for Parliament.”

    Being “scared to death” is exactly the reason that you and every other lover of Freedom should write!

    I write under my own name because it absolutely scares me to do so!

    Like Bogey said in “Casablanca”, we don’t amount to a hill of beans …!

    But I do write, stupidly, profoundly, cruddily, insightfully sometimes, and angrily a lot, and I am just one more cog that just will not fit into the Conservative dream of a small government ruled by a few, of the many, and for the few, the Corporative State.

    Every time I write I put my life on the line, that is just the way it is.

  450. 460 Jonathan
    September 28, 2008 at 07:11

    @Bryan

    Oh, please. I didn’t insult you.

  451. 461 Bryan
    September 28, 2008 at 07:15

    Well then I guess we are faced with a few possibilities here:

    1. McCain had a lousy coach who didn’t mention eye contact.
    2. He did, but McCain disregarded it.
    3. He was coached in addressing large audiences, not in one on one debate.
    4. He was never coached.

  452. 462 Jens
    September 28, 2008 at 07:40

    @steve

    so you are a michigan fan??? I watched the game and ha to leave 😦 before the end. ann arbor was my first place i worked in the us, so the wolverines and the red wings plus the psitons are my teams here. i just cannot get myself to support the lions and tigers, they are just tooooooooooooooooo bad.

    @ accents

    heck i am a lost puppy here. i used to have a great london, east endish, kind of accent, but right now i am stuck in the hell of some atlantic accent, ie a mix of american and english. i am getting placed as australian or south afican all the time, and it does not sound anything like it. it’s more like fugg-up-landia than anything else…. apparently is still kind of charming and often entertaining, since i still use classic english words and pronounce them in a very english way, especially my norther english (used to live in manchester) seems to be very popular………..ManU here we go.

  453. 463 Tom D Ford
    September 28, 2008 at 07:40

    @ Pangolin-California September 27, 2008 at 8:27 am

    “@ Tom~ I have to agree with you. If his name, money and backstory were stripped from him he’d have a hard time securing the greeters job at WalMart. Just another weird old man who thinks he was a war hero. BFD. We got a dozen of them down at the shelter every morning.

    Ronald Reagan was at least a great storyteller. His story’s were absolute fiction but dang the man could spin a yarn from thin air.

    The day the US quits electing morons to high office is the day I start saluting the flag. Not until then.”

    Sorry for quoting the entire post but I woke up in the middle of last night thinking that McCain would not be qualified to be a Wal-Mart greeter. Eerie? I don’t think so!

    And Reagan? Conservative Republicans have a history of electing the “dumb guy”, Ronald “Amiable Dunce” Reagan, George W (Dumbunny), Richard “very intelligent but a Crook” Nixon, and I don’t know about how intelligent GHW (“told Saddam Hussein it’s OK to invade Kuwait”) Bush was.

    And now last in his class McCain.

  454. 464 Jonathan
    September 28, 2008 at 07:41

    Bryan~

    I’ll tell you what this learned colleague has to say about Gov. Blunt’s press release:

    What the fork is the man blathering on about? He is summoning up a thundering blast of pompous outrage about something, but neither he nor you cares to say what. His writing style is not especially impressive either; it looks as if he had a bunch of scraps and pasted them in random order, like the game Mad Libs, where you construct a sentence from inserting nouns, verbs, and other parts of speech into an unseen template and then laugh at the funny result when you see the whole sentence.

    Do you know what he’s ranting about?

    Separately, I don’t think Obama has a more unsavory background than McCain. You’ve heard of the banking scandal of some 20 years ago, in which McCain bullied regulatory agencies on behalf of his good friend and generous contributor, a disgusting criminal named Keating? Or, well, this past week, in which by all accounts he single-handedly and unintentionally sabotaged the “bailout” bill.

  455. 465 Bob in Queensland
    September 28, 2008 at 07:43

    @ Bryan

    Well, I think we can discount your option 4. Training in presentational skills is extremely common these days and I find it inconceivable that the Republican presidential candidate hasn’t had coaching. I don’t know of any politician, at least at a national level, who hasn’t had at least some training in this area.

    As for your other three possibilities, perhaps “all of the above”.

    Although some people have focused on the “eye contact thing” I personally think McCain did well. He came across as poised and assured and didn’t fidget. Eye contact is certainly mentioned in most training, but usually in the context of looking at the person interviewing you (or at members of the audience in the case of a lecture or speech). Yesterday’s debate was unusual in that you had an interviewer AND an audience…but you were debating with a third party. Who do you look at? In the end, instinct probably took over.

    Personally I think the “looking at Obama” aspect has been blown out of proportion…it was one aspect of the whole event. Playing devils avocado for a second, if you want something to REALLY talk about, you should ask why Obama rubbed his nose several times. Perhaps an itch…or perhaps…well, I’ll let you Google “body language” and “nose rubbing”.

  456. 466 Bryan
    September 28, 2008 at 08:04

    Tom D Ford September 28, 2008 at 7:10 am,

    You tick all the PC boxes so what danger could you possibly be in?

    Jonathan September 28, 2008 at 7:41 am

    I’m unclear as to where your quote ends and your own comments begin or if the entire thing is a quote but I did notice that you totally skirted the actual points made by Governor Blunt. How does that help your argument?

    Bob in Queensland September 28, 2008 at 7:43 am

    Who do you look at? In the end, instinct probably took over.

    I tend to agree with that.

    …you should ask why Obama rubbed his nose several times.

    He was itching to punch McCain on his nose? No doubt even the experts don’t have all the answers re body language.

  457. 467 Jonathan
    September 28, 2008 at 08:05

    @Bob

    With no disrespect to your wife, it’s quite believable to me that McCain’s failure to look Obama in the eye could have been a deliberate stratagem. He kept saying that Obama didn’t know this and didn’t understand that or the other; a refusal to look at him fits right into that template of contempt.

    In 1960, Kennedy deliberately and pointedly didn’t shake Nixon’s extended hand backstage before the famous debate. Threw him off his game. (Kennedy’s debate prep also included a bit of “nose rubbing” of the sort that gained him posthumous fame, or so legend has it.)

  458. 468 Tom D Ford
    September 28, 2008 at 08:08

    @ Bryan September 27, 2008 at 9:08 pm

    ‘Will, there are an enormous number of people on the planet who would be quite content to have their needs eternally supplied by someone else while they themselves put no more effort in than going to the dole office and holding their hand out for the cheque. (The UK, through the cumulative idiocy of successive idiotic governments, now finds itself a dole provider for untold thousands of people who have flocked to Britain for the handouts and have no intention of ever providing for themselves.)

    Tell such people that the only input that is required of them is that of their own ability and they will miraculously become quite incapacitated.”

    A perfect description of inherited wealth capitalism, of Conservatism, of “trust Fund” babies!

    they are Born rich and offended that they should make any effort to make any contribution to justify their existence on the planet!

    Good post, Bryan, I agree, the wealthy ought to be required to earn their way by doing actual work!

  459. 469 Jonathan
    September 28, 2008 at 08:11

    @Bob again

    I’ve never heard “devil’s avocado” before, but I already like it.

    For instance: I didn’t notice the nose-rubbing. Are you suggesting that possibly someone took a bit of “nasal nourishment” as he used to in his college days?

    (Is that the spirit of the thing?)

  460. 470 Bob in Queensland
    September 28, 2008 at 08:26

    @ Jonathan

    Feel free to steal my “avocado”. I use it too often as a joke, to the point where somebody once corrected me because she thought I was serious!

    As for nose rubbing, in “Body Language 101” the populist view is that rubbing your nose is an indication of lying. However, Obama touched his nose (and smirked) several times while McCain was speaking, indicating he couldn’t believe some of the things McCain was saying. According to Caer, Obama will likely be told off by his coach for showing through like this!

    Regarding McCain’s not looking, Caer concedes this could have been deliberate….but says that it would be VERY difficult to keep it up as consistently as he did. There wasn’t a flicker of a glance even when Obama said things like “you’re wrong!”. Much more likely this was a reflection of his own feelings that he’s both right and superior…and who says these are bad traits in a presidential candidate?

  461. 471 Jonathan
    September 28, 2008 at 08:32

    Bryan, what “quote?” My comment contained no “quote.” If it had, it would be in quotation marks, like this: “quote.” That’s the standard, and uncomplicated, convention. I also made no “argument.” What I did was ask you what that press release–to which you linked–was about, because it didn’t ever say. Apparently you don’t know either.

    Also, I asked whether you had heard of the “Keating 5” scandal in McCain’s past. Apparently you missed that while you were confecting the imaginary “quotes.”

  462. 472 Jonathan
    September 28, 2008 at 08:46

    @Bob

    A conviction that he’s right and a certainty that he’s superior?

    Maybe not bad in a candidate, but as recent experience surely suggests, poison in a president.

  463. 473 Bryan
    September 28, 2008 at 09:17

    Tom D Ford September 28, 2008 at 8:08 am

    As you probably know, I wasn’t talking about trust funds. I was talking (partly) about the flooding of Britain by people from failed states, many of whom enter illegally and have chosen the country because it is a soft touch. Yes, there are plenty people who live off trust funds but nothing is forever and wealth has to be eventually created all over again. Socialism on the other hand, is based on the idiotic notion that there will always be a benevolent father figure (society) to feed and clothe you whether or not you make any effort to feed and clothe yourself. Since it destroys initiative by putting the doctor on the same level as the janitor it does tremendous damage to those who fall under its spell.

    Jonathan I posted a working link at 6:16 am and copied and pasted from it and you’re telling me you still don’t know what I was talking about? I thought your reply at was a quote because I thought you omitted the link by mistake and you prefaced it with this statement complete with colon:

    I’ll tell you what this learned colleague has to say about Gov. Blunt’s press release:

    Now I see you were talking about yourself. Tell you what, I’ll communicate my thoughts re your twenty-year-old dirt on McCain if you stop trying to avoid this extremely fresh manure on Obama. Deal? But I can’t do anything about it now since real life intervenes.

    Maybe BBC journos would like to talk about it as well, or perhaps they prefer to limit themselves to discussing Palin’s pregnant daughter and McCain’s looming senility.

  464. 474 Bob in Queensland
    September 28, 2008 at 10:03

    @ Bryan

    I can very much see where Jonathan is coming from.

    That (Republican) Governor Blunt site is full of rage and indignant horror but nowhere does it give any detail on what Obama is supposed to have done. I tried Googling and came up with lots of right wing sites ranting in the same way–but still no measured, factual statement of the accusation.

    I’m still willing to listen but the lack of facts and detail makes me sceptical that this is anything but some more smear campaigning. Can you shed any further light?

  465. 475 Robert
    September 28, 2008 at 12:31

    Dwight

    Does this bother anybody else. What we have seen especially with the appointment of Ms. Palin to the VP position is that anybody with little know no background or education can potentially end up in the highest offices of our land

    The background is the one I would worry about, the other not so much. John Major failed his O level in Maths (old UK exam taken at 16) and still became Chancellor of the Exchequer and Prime Minister. He even won an election that he was widely believed to loose in ’92. He won’t go down in history as the best at either role but he wasn’t a complete wreck in them either.

  466. 476 Pangolin-California
    September 28, 2008 at 12:37

    @ Body Language~ I might have a different perspective on body language since my training in it came from 16 years of study of martial arts. I also worked for some time as a therapeutic masseur and have completed most of a degree in exercise physiology. This was the focus of my life for almost 20 years.

    McCain- At first I thought that the camera was poorly placed for McCain showing his left side but then I realized that the cameras were actually filming from a slightly central point to each candidate from the middle of the two. McCain simply refused to allow Obama into his field of vision. I would say that this is from outrage rather than fear or disrespect.

    McCain moved quickly and continuously thru the debate shifting his weight and position relative to the podium almost constantly. Whatever he might have gained by staging his hand movements was lost by this movement. He never “owned” the space he was in. I would say that this is the reason for his poor showing in the polls.

    Obama- Obama was actually more studied and staged in his behavior than McCain in my opinion. He was almost always inclined a respectful 10 degrees towards McCain venturing to turn when directly challenging him and returning to his mark. In this he shares a trait with dancers and martial artists in that they are accustomed to waiting in a still, balanced, posture for their cue to movement.

    Obama’s ownership of his space and well toned and regulated speaking voice is what I credit for his nomination. It’s unmatched in US politics. I would say that his trainers actually work with him to ADD emotion to his face while waiting his turn instead of poker-facing. The rubbing his nose thing I would opine is a self-reminder to restrain his voice/language when riled. Not quite the hand over the mouth.

    Barring significant gaffes or notable statements I think the debate came down to vocal quality and body language for the people who hadn’t already had a strong preference. This could be why Obama got the boost from a debate that appeared to be a draw.

  467. 477 steve
    September 28, 2008 at 12:57

    Wow, those terrorists are sure moralistic and progressive. Fortunately they only injured and didn’t kill her son, as terrorists care so much about preventing harm to civilians.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7640263.stm

  468. 478 Pangolin-California
    September 28, 2008 at 12:58

    @ Dole myth- The persistent myth that healthy people are somehow content to live on the dole, eating a dull diet and suffering limited social opportunity in the face of opportunity to participate is belied by the behavior of the wealthy. Genetically these two groups are identical.

    The children of the wealthy grow up knowing that opportunity is open to then and most importantly that failure is survivable. They are expected to try new challenges until they find a successful niche and it is not counted against them. Note George W. Bush was a business ruining drunk until he was 40. Then a pile of money appeared that allowed him to by a significant share of a baseball team.

    The children of the poor know very deeply that resources extended on life experiences come out of survival caches. Every poor neighborhood has people with half of a college degree and a entry-level job. Stepping out just earns those people an added burden. They learn that jumping without a chute just results in a wet smear.

  469. 479 steve
    September 28, 2008 at 12:59

    To those concerned about Education

    Abraham lincoln had only had 18 months of formal education in his entire life.

  470. 480 roebert
    September 28, 2008 at 13:06

    About Bill Clinton’s peccadillo ( no, peccadillo doesn’t mean the thing that did the peccadillo, or had the peccadillo done to it). So he lied about it, and unashamedly to boot; and who can blame him? That kind of thing isn’t for public consumption anyway…if consumption’s the right word here. I think his lie was in the same league as the ‘I didn’t inhale’ evasor: a way of giving a stupid persecutor the…er…upraised finger.

    Bush’s war lies, on the other hand, were (and are) transparent deceptions in the one and only sphere of politics where absolute honesty is the only acceptable standard: giving reasons why people should kill and be killed.

    I didn’t think one whit the less of Clinton for anything he did, or had done to him. I thought much less of the Starr et al. who tried to use them as tools for dislodging one of the best presidents the US has had.

  471. 481 Pangolin-California
    September 28, 2008 at 13:33

    @ Steve~ Quisling: a traitor or collaborator

    A person working for occupying forces of a foreign government generally lives under a death sentence. As a police officer she accepted that sentence when she took the job. The fact that the occupying force is politically aligned with you doesn’t make her place in the puppet government any less precarious.

    The ‘OMG they shot a woman’ sentiment is just peurile. The US blows up whole Afghan families wholesale with great regularity. The fault is ours since we invaded and disrupted their nation.

  472. 482 Pangolin-California
    September 28, 2008 at 13:43

    “Abraham Lincoln had only had 18 months of formal education in his entire life.”

    A bizarre statement from somebody who claims a law license. Tell us Steve, what are the requirements to sit for the Bar exams where you practice law? What are the qualifications one would require of a paralegal applying for a job?

    Abraham Lincoln did not live in a time or place where certification trumped knowledge in most realms of commerce. No papers, no job.

  473. September 28, 2008 at 13:46

    Hi Bryan
    Reyr September 26, 2008 at 8.45 pm posting
    I have never seen such virulence on the blogg. I failed to count the number of ‘kill’ interjections, but it is certainly catchy.
    What makes for so much hate? Is this an eye-opener? Have people finally realised that the entire Ahmadinejad, prelates scenario is pure lies?
    As I have so often said, out, lock, stock and barrel! It has at last gained favour.
    How can an entire nation be hounded day and night, with someone breathing down their necks, asking: “What are you wearing? What are you eating? What are you saying? Who are you talking to? Where are you going?”
    Thank God someone else has seen through the act. It’s so phoney, designed to terrify and subdue the public, it’s not only Jews, but: “Hate, hate! Hate everything, white skin, blue eyes, blonde hair.”
    Obama mustn’t talk to them, please tell him so. Any sign of dialogue will be interpreted as compliance and accord. It’s a pity Bush didn’t stay to finish what he started, but then we all have our days.

  474. 485 steve
    September 28, 2008 at 14:03

    @ Pangolin

    Rather than attack me, attack my argument. Thanks. My point was that someone said they didn’t believe Palin was educated, and I proved that one of the most famous Presidents in American history had very little formal education. You didn’t need to attack me, let alone question really whether I have a law license or not. How was that in any way relevant to the discussion and anything other than a personal attack?

  475. 486 steve
    September 28, 2008 at 14:05

    @ Pangolin

    Um, just so you know. Obama supports the Afghanistan war and has said he would step it up… And again, you had to twist things, changing it from a terrorist action to then saying “but the US does ….”

    The US doesn’t target civilians, terrorists do. The Messiah, Obama, would continue the afghanistan war.

  476. 487 Julie P
    September 28, 2008 at 14:06

    It looks like Hurricane Kyle will be impacting New Brunswick, Canada.

    http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/weather/09/27/kyle.storm/index.html#cnnSTCOther1

    Will, any input?

  477. 488 Roberto
    September 28, 2008 at 14:28

    RE “”So he lied about it, and unashamedly to boot; and who can blame him? That kind of thing isn’t for public consumption anyway””

    ** Depends upon what the definition isn’t “is”according to Billy Slick.

    Let’s be clear here, many could care less if he has chosen to have an open marriage arrangement with his wife. However, he has a string of sexual harrassment and even a rape accusation against him through out his political career, and at least one million dollar out of court settlement, perhaps more to follow.

    He didn’t just lie, he perjured hisself before the highest grand jury in the land, the US House. Legally, he was aquitted in the Senate in nice ethic/legal violation of laws of the land they are sworn to uphold, but that’s the way the law has always worked, in murkey subjectivity and self interest.

    If he didn’t want “that kind of thing” for public consumption, then it shouldn’t have been carried out in the public’s house as a public servant with a public intern. I’d think that would be clear to even a village idiot.

    He also lied, post Monica under the auspices of NATO, about the extent of Serbian aggression against Kosovo Albanians. No different than what was done in advance of the Iraq 2003 invasion, but all that conveniently swept under the rug in the interest of the never ending liberal vs conservative cheerleading battle that passes as common political discourse.

    In short, BSlick had the motive, means, and proven inclination to match the GWhacked’ disasterous presidential reign, only lacking more time and bigger opportunity to do so.

  478. 490 selena in Canada
    September 28, 2008 at 14:52

    How many times are we going to quibble about the way civilians get killed?

    Dead is dead!

  479. 491 selena in Canada
    September 28, 2008 at 14:55

    I am laughing so hard I am about to fall out of my chair.

    That tired old phrase scare tactics by the left

    My question: Is better to have scare tactics by the left that the actual scare by the right?

  480. 493 Kelsie in Houston
    September 28, 2008 at 14:58

    @Selena re prime number:
    A world record….until someone comes up with a prime number containing 13,000,001 digits…what a task that will be for adjudicators…

  481. 494 selena in Canada
    September 28, 2008 at 14:59

    No matter the amount of schooling, Abe Lincoln passed the test and became a lawyer.

    I can imagine the test at that time being much more comprehensive than it is now.

    I bet that he was a lot smarter than many of the lawyers today!!!

  482. 495 Julie P
    September 28, 2008 at 15:22

    It’s true. We have no gas. This video was shot two or three miles from where I live.

    http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2008/09/28/jackson.ga.gas.shortage.wsb

  483. 496 roebert
    September 28, 2008 at 15:57

    Roberto: I stand corrected in so far as the harassment etc. goes. But I refuse to be condemned for the pleasure I take in being silly.

    Re: Body language, voice modulation coaching: isn’t this a reason for mistrusting a politician rather than congratuling him/her for doing it so well? I mean, are they being coached to appear as sincere as they really are, or because they’re such insincere histrions that they have to be taught how to look honest? “He bent his body forward at a 95 degree angle from the waist, which shows his willingness to serve; he rotated a full 360 to show he has nothing to hide; he cocked his ear at 62 degrees to indicate his alertness to public opinion etc.’

    I always thought Desmond Tutu was a bit of a sham until I saw the real man collapse with weeping in the streets of genocide-torn Rwanda. Aren’t we more reliably informed when we catch the real man off guard? And wouldn’t it be better to vote for real people, however uncoached they appear? Less smooth, more real?

  484. 497 steve
    September 28, 2008 at 16:01

    @ Selena

    http://everything2.com/e2node/Bar%2520Exam

    Back then, the bar exam wasn’t really even a test. You didn’t even have to know law to pass it. It was basically an interview with a judge. I assure, you taking the real bar exam is much more difficult. I doubt even if Lincoln had a written test, it covered 28 subjects like the New York bar exam does.

  485. 498 Pangolin-California
    September 28, 2008 at 16:07

    @ Steve~ Re: Lincoln’s formal education.

    In our current legal climate knowledge is secondary to certification in professional life. If you have the certificate and a recent stroke you may still practice law until challenged. To pretend otherwise is a joke.

    The post I read had no statement that it was a referral to Sara Palin’s schooling. The woman is obviously opaque to education. George W. Bush holds an Ivy League masters degree but to quote Paul Begala is “a high-functioning moron.” Why anyone supports the concept of placing stupid people in high political office is beyond me.

    Re: Afghanistan~ The notice regarding the Afghan police woman didn’t have a partisian tag nor did my reply. Why should you assume that it had something to do with Obama?

    The US occupation of Afghanistan (it’s not a ‘war’ really) puts the burden of law enforcement and order on the occupier. The fiction that the Karzai government is anything but a set of Vichy collaborators is believe by nobody outside of the US and UK.

    Quislings who collaborate with occupying armies are under a death sentence wherever they are found. This is not unique or new to Afghanistan. That was my point.

    Specialization is a trap isn’t it? It provides money but everyone else has a license to exploit your ignorance. Do ya think I should use smaller words? I hear we have PhD’s reading this?

  486. 499 steve
    September 28, 2008 at 16:10

    @ Pangolin

    That’s untrue. If a lawyer is incapable of performing his/her duties due to incapacity, he/she is not acting int he best interests of the client and has a duty to not represent that client.

    I would love to see someone use the word “moron” not referring to Bush and see if it would be considered politically correct, because someone, somewhere, might be offended for someone else.

  487. 500 Pangolin-California
    September 28, 2008 at 16:13

    @ Steve~ How come all the lawyers in Washington can’t recognize that the $700 billion dollar bank bailout is structured after a simple street con?

    Either the powers that be are hiding something or they are stupid as rocks. They aren’t that stupid.

    So what crimes does that bail-out cover up?

  488. 501 steve
    September 28, 2008 at 16:15

    @ Selena

    Both sides use scare tactics. I can admit it. Can you?

    Republicans say “if you vote for Obama, the terrorists will kill you”

    and the democrats say “if Mccain is elected, abortion will become illegal everywhere and the police will arrest you for going to other states for getting a legal abortion, despite me just having said abortion would be illegal everywhere, just like in evil Germany!”

    I see all sorts of scare tactics from the left, including on here. How many times have I read “Bush will refuse to leave office! He will make himself dictator for life!” or “I just know the evil white people will kill Obama” or if obama doesn’t win it’s due to racism.

    At least admit that both sides use idiotic scare tactics. That’s what being objective is about.

  489. 502 steve
    September 28, 2008 at 16:18

    @Pangolin

    The legal system is reactive, not proactive. Something has to be done before the legal system can be involved. YOu need legislation before you can challenge the legislation. There has not even been a vote yet.

  490. 503 Pangolin-California
    September 28, 2008 at 16:25

    “That’s untrue. If a lawyer is incapable of performing his/her duties due to incapacity, he/she is not acting int he best interests of the client and has a duty to not represent that client.”

    Uh huh. Try this google: lawyer sleep during trial, or judge sleep during trial.

    The legal profession is about as devoid of ethics and exempt from oversight as it could possibly be. When supreme court judges publicly advocate torture without censure or comment by the legal profession you know that there is no hope.

  491. 504 Bob in Queensland
    September 28, 2008 at 16:47

    Well friends, it’s been a slice….I’m off to bed but will be back for the home run in 8 hours or so…

  492. 505 roebert
    September 28, 2008 at 16:48

    Having been unfavourably compared with a village idiot, I may as well go on to ask a really idiotic question: since it’s clear from the seriously angry arguments on the blog that neither Mc Cain nor Obama is qualified to lead the US into a new era of stability and respectability, is there a third option? And, if not, how will the US ever get out into the clear?

    Steve: just to take up your challenge above, I’d like to make the following statements: Obama is a moron, the pope is a moron, Gordon Brown is a moron, Putin is a moron, Ahmadinejad is a moron, Clinton was a moron, and the BBC is staffed completely by morons.

    If this doesn’t end up in the spam, you’ve lost the bet!

  493. 506 steve
    September 28, 2008 at 16:54

    @ Pangolin

    When have supreme court justices publicly advocated for torture? EVen if one had, we have this thing called the first amendment.

    YOu seem to hold lawyers up to super human levels. I have news for you, trials are very boring. They aren’t like what you see on TV. It’s most about procedure. That isn’t included in TV shows and movies. I can see why they fall asleep, and many jurors fall asleep as well.

  494. 507 Julie P
    September 28, 2008 at 17:05

    @Trials,

    Steve is correct that trials are very boring and nothing like what has been depicted on television and in films. I went through a criminal trial once as a witness for the state beginning from the scene of the crime to sentencing. During the actual trial itself I was asked a couple of questions and not much more. The ADA and the defendant’s attorney mostly exchanged paperwork between themselves and the judge. At one point during the trial the defendants attorney asked for leniency. The only drama that occurred took place when the judge rendered his verdict. He was quite angry with the defendant and ripped him a new one before having him escorted out of the courtroom in cuffs.

    Overall from scene of the crime, through the detectives office, preliminary hearing, the ADA’s office, and criminal trial it was procedural and quite uneventful.

  495. 508 steve
    September 28, 2008 at 17:23

    @ Julie

    Yup. Law is an incredibly boring field, and people are misled, though once you get to law school and take Civ Pro your first semester, you come to that realization.

    I would recommend everyone to look at the federal rules of civil procedure, and that’s basically what most of the arguments are made out, or the rules of evidence, whether something can be admitted into evidence if it’s a copy vs. original, or if an out of court statement is one of the 23 or so exceptions to the hearsay rule..

    It’s incredibly boring.

  496. 509 Robert
    September 28, 2008 at 17:27

    Roberto

    Clinton was a moron

    So when he left the White house he stopped being one?

  497. 510 Julie P
    September 28, 2008 at 17:33

    @Steve,

    After the judge had the new convict taken from the court he apologized to me for not being able give the guy a longer sentence. Georgia has a law called “first time offender”, meaning if a person has not been convicted of a crime prior to the one they were just convicted of, then the person will get one year in prison and four years of probation. The judge informed me that if I did not like it, (he was explaining things to me and not being nasty) then I would need to lobby the state legislature and have the law changed. I charged the buy with three felonies. Had this law not been on the books he would have gone to prison for 42 years, not one.

  498. 511 Dennis@OCC
    September 28, 2008 at 17:57

    Hi, everyone!

    I am proud of everyone, went over 500…posts…

    ****************
    Good night, Bob in Queensland.

    ********************
    About the BBC is staffed by morons:
    That is not true, unlike some of the media
    outlets in the world…

    Dennis

  499. 512 steve
    September 28, 2008 at 18:00

    @ Julie P

    In many european countries, people serve only 15 or so years for murder. WHYS had a show about a former Baader Meinhof gang member who murdered 5 people and was still unrepentant and she was released after 25 years.

  500. 513 Julie P
    September 28, 2008 at 18:08

    @Steve,

    I have a friend who was married to a neurosurgeon. This surgeon has a severe alcohol and drug problem. After they divorced he found himself a girlfriend in Alabama. One night the both of them drunk and stoned set an ambush for some guy they believed wronged them. One of them, it’s not clear who pulled the trigger since they both lied, shot the guy in the back of the head, dumped his body in a lake, and then fled the state. They both were charged with four capital crimes. She went to trial in June and got life in prison. He went to trial this month, plea bargained, and got the two years he waited to go to trial as part of his sentenced served. He only has to sever another year and half for murder.

  501. 514 Dennis@OCC
    September 28, 2008 at 18:09

    I submitted a comment, and it looks like it disappear..

    Dennis

  502. 515 Roberto
    September 28, 2008 at 18:10

    RE “”that neither Mc Cain nor Obama is qualified to lead the US into a new era of stability and respectability, is there a third option?””
    ——————————————————————————————————–

    ——— Both are “qualified” as per US constitution.

    There is really no job that could possibly “qualify” anyone to be US president, a job infinitesimally more complex with more responsibilities than any other job past or present.

    The global and domestic problems faced by the new president are far greater than any single person. Not an insurmountable problem in world history, but any sucess depends on the leader elevating his capacities and judgements beyond any previous abilities and getting the right people in place to coordinate. Then he has to have some good fortune of domestic conditions and external conditions being favorable or at least not interfering with new policies.

    In short, he has to be world’s best poker player for the short term whilst setting up seminal consensus long range planning to strengthen the country’s future, whilst equitably governing as per the constitution.

    Not impossible, but generally improbable under normal circumstance, but normal circumstance no longer exists thanks to 16 yrs of US bungling as the largest, unrestrained superpower in world history.

    NPR just finished up an segment on “America Abroad” featuring Sec of States Powel, Albright, Christopher, Baker, and Kissinger which was quite some thoughtful dialogue that is seldom heard out of polorized Washington.

    Highly recommended for anyone considering real issues:

    http://www.americaabroadmedia.org/programs/view/id/88

  503. 516 roebert
    September 28, 2008 at 18:13

    Robert: No, when he left the White House he reverted to being a yahoo.

  504. 517 Dennis@OCC
    September 28, 2008 at 18:16

    About Clinton being a moron, why was he [during] his time in office, he had a stable economy and people had jobs and the United States had a good financial situation in the world….

    If that is the definition of being a moron, what is the current President in the United States is?

    Dennis

  505. 518 Jessica in NYC
    September 28, 2008 at 18:52

    The $700 Billion bail out, from NYT: Breakthrough Reached in Negotiations on Bailout I missed the Sunday’s morning analysis and trying to catch up. Any good news?

    Palin’s inability to give a coherent answer, from UK Independent:
    Palin sends the cringe meter off the dial For you ultra-conservatives, feel free to check out un-bias pro McCain’s Fox’s criticism of Palin: Conservatives Begin Questioning Palin’s Heft

  506. 519 Dennis@OCC
    September 28, 2008 at 19:08

    To Palin un-ability to give a coherent answer, is the new policy of the
    Republican party for the past many years…..

    Dennis

  507. 520 Robert
    September 28, 2008 at 19:47

    Jessica

    Sorry to spoil your description but The Independent is a reasonably leftish newspaper by British standards. Throw that into the American context they would naturally fall into the democratic camp. Not that the comments are not correct, I do notice that her public speaking abilities are by far the weakest of the four involved in this election, but every newspaper is biased to an extent.

  508. 521 steve
    September 28, 2008 at 20:03

    @ Julie

    Obviously he plead to a lesser offense than murder if he got that little jail, hence not murder. Murder is a precise legal term. Obviously that had more evidence on the girlfriend than him.

  509. September 28, 2008 at 20:06

    It looks like Hurricane Kyle will be impacting New Brunswick, Canada.

    http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/weather/09/27/kyle.storm/index.html#cnnSTCOther1

    Will, any input?

    I think you have seen the blog post, Julie. I will, unless I lose power, be blogging with updates about what is happening.

    From the lay of the track – it’s coming right over my head.

    It will be interesting and I hope to be able to stay online. 🙂 The computer and table are now at the side of the living room without the windows – you have to take precautions. LOL

  510. 523 Kelsie in Houston
    September 28, 2008 at 20:07

    Will:
    Best of luck–I can say with some honesty: I understand your situation. Hope you are able to keep us posted…

    [Edit] Sorry for editing your post, Kelsie – it now takes up to two minutes for the page to load for me so editing is far, far faster – hope you don’t mind.

    I will blog as much as I can, hopefully I can get Alison involved with taking some pictures – but me being me I think it will be quite uneventful. I think it will drop down to a mere tropical storm by the time it hits.

  511. 524 Julie P
    September 28, 2008 at 20:17

    @Steve,

    Here is what I am able to find online about it.

    http://www.postpaper.com/robertsguilty08.htm

    Some of what I am learning is coming for the ex-wife of the surgeon. She doesn’t want to have anything to do with it or him, but the children do, so I’m getting a lot of third hand info.

  512. 525 steve
    September 28, 2008 at 20:26

    @ Julie

    I’ll read that later on, I just got back from kayaking and am all muddy. Did you people know that squirrels can swim? One was swimming across the river. I had no idea what it was at first, thought it was a fish, then I thought it was a beaver, then it got out of the water and went onto a rock and it was a squirrel. Has a very low profile when it swims.

  513. 526 Julie P
    September 28, 2008 at 20:46

    @Will,

    When I lived through Hurricane Opal I moved stuff off the front porch, or at least put on the floor of the porch. I did move stuff away from the windows. I left car in a place where at least trees and power lines could not fall on it. We suffered fallen trees. No power outages, at least not where I lived and worked. Two days later and the city was back to normal.

  514. 527 Julie P
    September 28, 2008 at 21:02

    @Bailout,

    For those who want to read the bill in it’s entirety, here it is:

    http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/28/news/pdf/index.htm

  515. September 28, 2008 at 21:56

    @ the bail out bill

    Kucinich just now on CNN says, “I’m not going to vote no. Im going to vote HELL no!”

  516. 529 Jonathan
    September 28, 2008 at 22:06

    @Julie~

    Thanks for the bailout bill link. Wow, I was expecting the three pages that the administration submitted and that McCain couldn’t be troubled to read in the two days after it was submitted, although he somehow decided it was important enough to merit his undivided attention and a dramatic and phony “suspension” of his campaign and a promise not to debate Obama, which he of course broke.

    My, how it’s grown! 106 pages now! I wonder if it’s gotten any better. I suspect it resembles the proverbial “horse designed by committee” that turned out to be a camel. But not as practical.

    Let’s all take a moment to thank the bozos on right wing AM talk radio who whipped up their minions to oppose this (without understanding it of course) and thus delayed it and motivated conressmen to bloat it with 100 pages of CYA.

  517. 530 Jonathan
    September 28, 2008 at 22:09

    @portlandmike

    Thanks for sparing me the trouble of reading 106 pages, and reclaiming my Sunday. Now that I know “Dennis the menace” opposes it, I know it can’t be all that bad.

  518. 531 Dennis@OCC
    September 28, 2008 at 22:15

    Re: BAILOUT [BILL]

    I would also voted “HELL NO” Because the bill, is
    a nice pork barrel project.

    Dennis

  519. 532 Jens
    September 28, 2008 at 22:47

    it’s hardly a 103 page document. i mean the margins are beyond ridicliouse and then is that quadrupel spaced. at best this is a 20 page document. jeeze use plain english as well……..

    ok, i know gooverment documents are layed out like that but 105 pages ???? 😉

  520. 533 Jens
    September 28, 2008 at 22:50

    jonathan,

    whenever the goverment asks me to pass something quickly, i smeel horse manure and usually it is. 700 billion on a three page document without any judiciary oversight……horse manure…..don’t you think so

  521. 534 steve
    September 28, 2008 at 22:52

    Horrible local news, medevac goes down, killing 4, including the person who was being medevac’d

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/28/AR2008092800416.html?hpid=topnews

  522. 535 Roberto
    September 28, 2008 at 22:57

    RE $2 trillion dollar Wall Street Bailout:
    ———————————————————————————————————

    ——– Yup, with AIG and this supposed “Discussion Draft” 700 billion bailout, added to 1. Bear Stearns/Lehman Brothers guarantees, 2. Indy Mac/Freddie Mac/Fannie Mae absorbtion, we’re quickly approaching the 2 trillion mark. That ignores the additional, off the books 1 trillion yearly for Iraq added to the natironal debt by the end of the year.

    One thing about slavery was at least there was no pretense. It was completely honest in intent and implementation. What caught my eye immediately in the opening statement defining the purpose of the bill was the very last phrase, “and for other purposes.”

    In otherwords, an open ended bill with plenty of blank checks. Earmarks have not yet been tabulated, but consensus seems to be to get the bill passed before a whole herd of wall street big shots end up bloated belly up, stinking up the carefully choreographed slick marketing package.

    How does that old saying go, “All’s well that ends well for us, the elite few as long as the unwashed masses have plenty of cake to eat?” Something like that.

    The sky may fall tomorrow, but it will be a glorious sky to watch falling, so the Congress to “git-r-done.”

  523. 536 Jonathan
    September 28, 2008 at 23:05

    @Steve

    How exactly do helicopter crashes, stabbings on buses, and the rest of the steady supply of blood and guts you provide us every day inform our worldwide conversation? Is there some bearing on public policy, or some lesson to be learned, or anything relevant to anyone anywhere anyhow?

    Nor does this sort of thing seem to fit into either of the two primary narratives that normally guide your insight, “People are irresponsible,” or “Women–you can’t trust them!”

    I don’t get it.

  524. 537 Jonathan
    September 28, 2008 at 23:08

    @Jens

    Suspicion of government comes naturally to me too, and I’m no more comfortable with the extra 100 pages than I was with the original three.

  525. 538 Jonathan
    September 28, 2008 at 23:17

    @Roberto

    One more time: There is no “trillion dollars annually for Iraq.” Someone has estimated that the entire Iraq war could conceivably cost a trillion dollars from start to finish, which includes some outer-edge dubious methods and assumptions like calculating lifetime care through the VA, and other costs far in the future, impossible to determine, and arguably not attributable to the war.

    Nobody anywhere ever has purported that the war costs anything remotely close to a trillion dollars a year. Did you get that from someplace, or just make it up?

  526. 539 steve
    September 28, 2008 at 23:21

    @ Jonathan

    And your personal attack adds just so much. I’m curious why you didn’t attack whomever mentioned the hurricane tropical storm story? That’s right, because you probably agree with the person. Remember, personal attacks don’t anything to the discussion. Why that was even approved, I don’t really know.

  527. 540 selena in Canada
    September 28, 2008 at 23:21

    Ah Jonathan

    How exactly do helicopter crashes, stabbings on buses, and the rest of the steady supply of blood and guts you provide us every day inform our worldwide conversation?

    The same thing has crossed my mind. Is that a case of great minds think alike or the opposite… fools seldom differ?

    You forgot the “greedy poor”.

  528. 541 selena in Canada
    September 28, 2008 at 23:24

    What Jonathan said was not a personal attack. It was a good question. Maybe there is a good answer. So, what is the answer?

  529. 542 Julie P
    September 28, 2008 at 23:30

    @Steve and Jonathon,

    Boys! Boys! We can always invite that elves Dennis Kucinich and Ron Paul to blog on here that would make things fun.

  530. 543 steve
    September 28, 2008 at 23:30

    @ Selena

    If you can’t see that’s a personal attack (and since when do we have a rule that stories posted on here must meet Jonathan’s approval) then, I just don’t know… What did that post add? Nothing. He didn’t address anything I said, just attacked me. I’m kinda dumbfounded here.

    Selena, in the past you thought a post that called me a “fifth columnist traitor and i doubt you are really even a US citizen” wasn’t a personal attack.

  531. 544 Kelsie in Houston
    September 28, 2008 at 23:36

    Here we go again….

    Meanwhile, back in the world:
    New Japanese PM Taro Aso is already facing a major setback to his political agenda:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7640197.stm

  532. 545 Kelsie in Houston
    September 28, 2008 at 23:45

    And re storms: Kyle, meet Hagupit:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7640692.stm

  533. 546 Dennis@OCC
    September 28, 2008 at 23:47

    Re: SIMPLE ENGLISH!!!!

    Good idea….things would be made simple…

    Dennis

  534. 547 jamily5
    September 28, 2008 at 23:47

    Steve has a point,
    We report on hurricanes, storms, sickness, breastmilk, environment, recalls, etc.
    Why shouldn’t he post about helecopter crashes?
    Maybe he has broader interests than just politics, economics, women and the occasional law inquiry.
    And, I rarely agree with Steve, so I have no reason for bias.
    ersonally, he reports on helecopter crashes and such because it

  535. 548 jamily5
    September 28, 2008 at 23:49

    @Pink,
    I agree with you on accents. If I heard a name being pronounced a certain way, then, I try to remember its pronunciation and say it right.
    I may not always be successful, but I make an honest attempt: especially if it is a person or a subject that I will be talking about frequently.

  536. 549 Bryan
    September 28, 2008 at 23:49

    Selena, Jonathan frequently puts people down on this blog. Why does he try to reduce Steve’s contribution here to a few negatives if not to put him down? Obviously it was a personal attack. Anyway, he’s not fooling anyone. Steve probably debates a broader range of topics here than anyone else. So he occasionally also mentions a disaster or a shooting. Why should such a big deal be made out of that?

    Yesterday Steve mentioned that Paul Newman had died. This led to an entertaining and informative discussion about that great actor. Perhaps Jonathan missed that.

  537. 550 selena in Canada
    September 28, 2008 at 23:52

    And your personal attack adds just so much. I’m curious why you didn’t attack whomever mentioned the hurricane tropical storm story? That’s right, because you probably agree with the person.

    What does this mean?

  538. 551 jamily5
    September 28, 2008 at 23:53

    body language:
    I took public speaking, but my body language is probably not good.
    I will ask this:
    if Barack seemed rehursed and McCain “real,” then, what did he show to be his real side?
    And, has anyone seen McCain in other speeches? Surely, this is not his first. Can we make a comparison? What about Obama, can we make a comparison with his previous speeches?
    Is Barack coached or comfortable? And, is McCain cold or just unable to get his emotions across?

  539. 552 steve
    September 28, 2008 at 23:54

    @ Selena

    Forget it. I’m saying that because Jonathan doesn’t agree with my views, he objects to my posts, whereas he wouldn’t object to posts that didn’t deal with politics or world events from people he agrees with. If you’ll notice, multiple people on here are in disagreement with Jonathan about that very post. Please read those posts.

  540. 553 selena in Canada
    September 28, 2008 at 23:55

    @Bryan,

    Are you disputing that a great number of posts make reference to “People are irresponsible,” or “Women–you can’t trust them!”?

    Perhaps it just comes across that way to me.

  541. 554 Jens
    September 28, 2008 at 23:57

    steve, don’t take all this stuff personal. admittingly i have no idea why jonathan even took the time to citizise you contribution about the medvac chopper. while not earth shatteringly interesting for somebody in south eat asia, it is nevertheless sad and worthwhile a mention. especially in the light that we hear about some of the more bizzar things and events from let’s say britain.

    jonathon, why take the time and write something that realy just is a dig at steve? i mean you gain nothing from this really. there is enough strive in the world. if steve thinks that 4 people die in a medivac accident, then it is his porogative to think so. i am srue with some minor digging we couuld find a similar minial contribution on your part. i sure i know i have done so. i happen to agree, it is sad….

  542. 555 jamily5
    September 28, 2008 at 23:59

    @Lubna,
    We see less and less of you on the blog. I hope that it is just because you are happily busy with Ramadan.

    @Will, Any late updates on the Canadian hurricane/

  543. 556 selena in Canada
    September 29, 2008 at 00:00

    I’m saying that because Jonathan doesn’t agree with my views,

    Personal attacks are personal attacks, not matter what the reason… no?

  544. 557 Jens
    September 29, 2008 at 00:01

    who changed my s..t to manour?

    kind of makes my chuckle……

  545. 558 Kelsie in Houston
    September 29, 2008 at 00:02

    @Jamily re pronunciation of names:
    I have many students of Indian descent whose names are tricky for a Westerner such as myself 😉 and I rely heavily on hearing them say their names as well…

  546. 559 Dennis@OCC
    September 29, 2008 at 00:10

    I have a FACEBOOK page and, Lubna is currently busy with RAMADAN

    Dennis

  547. 560 Dennis@OCC
    September 29, 2008 at 00:17

    Another country that is starting to get a constitution:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7638102.stm

    Turkmenistan, a country with a “habit” of bad behaviour over the years…..

    Dennis

  548. 561 Dennis@OCC
    September 29, 2008 at 00:20

    To jamily5 September 28, 2008 at 11:59 pm

    Request about the Hurricane Kyle::::

    I found the link as of Sunday, September 28, 2008 | 6:39 PM ET

    Dennis

  549. 562 Dennis@OCC
    September 29, 2008 at 00:22

    http://WWW.CBC.CA/CANADA/STORY/2008/09/28/HURRICANE-KYLE-MARTITIMES.HTML

    [The address is in capital letters, so will be type into your address bar]

    Dennis

  550. 563 jamily5
    September 29, 2008 at 00:24

    A subject inspired by Steve:
    ——– inappropriate un-PC movies:
     
    “Blindness” written as a novel by José Saramago.

    Opened September 26, 2008 | Runtime:1 hr. 58 min.
    R
    violence including sexual assaults, language and sexuality/nudity
    When a sudden plague of blindness devastates a city, a small group of the afflicted band together to triumphantly overcome the horrific conditions of their
    imposed quarantine.
    A city is ravaged by an epidemic of instant “white blindness”. Those first afflicted are quarantined by the authorities in an abandoned mental hospital
    where the newly created “society of the blind” quickly breaks down. Criminals and the physically powerful prey upon the weak, hording the meager food rations
    and committing horrific acts. There is however one eyewitness to the nightmare. A woman whose sight is unaffected by the plague follows her afflicted husband
    to quarantine. There, keeping her sight a secret, she guides seven strangers who have become, in essence, a family. She leads them out of quarantine and
    onto the ravaged streets of the city, which has seen all vestiges of civilization crumble. Their voyage is fraught with danger, yet their survival and
    ultimate redemption reflect the tenacity and depth of the human spirit. Written by
    Festival de Cannes’ Editor
    Now, at first, when I heard of this movie, it reminded me of a long ago twilight zone episode.
    But, upon further investigation, I was a bit — just a bit, horrified.  
     (smile)
    Sources who have seen this movie say that:
    the blind people in the movie are either helpless or morrally depraved criminals. They became this way after going blind. Some even wail that they wish that they did not have this horrible affliction. and the one guy who was blind from birth was a criminal.
    The Doc’s wife even had to … … clean his bum after deficating! The Doc’s wife is the heroine in the movie because she can see what might befall them. the blind people never become independent until, miraculously, at the end of the film, their sight returns.
    And, I am sure that no blind actors were involved in making this movie.
    And, yes, there are blind actresses and actors who work in theater and even some in TV.
    Please don’t go see the movie b/c I posted it here. (smile)
    So, anyone want to admit that they wasted their time on this one? Or, maybe argue that it is a great movie: filled with suspense, humanity and insightfulness.(pun
    intended)

  551. 564 Julie P
    September 29, 2008 at 00:30

    “Yale is in the midst of processing, preserving and archiving 1,500 audio tapes recorded in bin Laden’s Afghanistan headquarters from 1988 through 2000 — a collection that includes recordings of everything from celebrations after militant actions to religious sermons to, yes, bin Laden’s poetry.”

    http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/09/26/yale.bin.laden.tapes/index.html

  552. 565 Bryan
    September 29, 2008 at 00:34

    selena in Canada September 28, 2008 at 11:55 pm

    @Bryan,

    Are you disputing that a great number of posts make reference to “People are irresponsible,” or “Women–you can’t trust them!”?

    I don’t know about “a great number” but Steve did discuss irresponsible behaviour in connection with the financial crash. I’m baffled as to why anyone would object to that accurate observation. The subject has just been on air on WHYS, hasn’t it? And the Finland shooting was on as well. Perhaps you and Jonathan would also like to blame Steve for that.

    On the “trusting women” bit, I recall one debate a while back when the women here were fighting with Steve but I didn’t follow it too closely. At times men moan about women and women moan about men. I’m not sure why that should not be discussed here. I get more irritated by the personal chat about people’s daily lives because it tends to divert threads from more serious objectives.

  553. 566 Bryan
    September 29, 2008 at 00:49

    Jens September 29, 2008 at 12:01 am

    who changed my s..t to manour?

    A moderator recently explained to me that some words and phrases are banned by the BBC from their blogs. When I tried to post “son of a b..ch,” it was not allowed.

  554. 567 Roberto
    September 29, 2008 at 00:54

    RE “” There is no “trillion dollars annually for Iraq””
    ———————————————————————————————————–

    ——— My dear jonny, there is no “there is no.”

    This whole thing is smoke and mirrors with a large number of costs in Iraq being subsidized by state national guard units who have taken local state subscriptions to be able to afford to jury rig armor to their vehicles and buy essential flak vests, ect.

    Seeing as the death benefits to the soldiers are obscenely low and can never make up for their productivity in civilian life to the economy which ain’t calculated in not no to mention the terrible damage done to surviving soldiers and family members not to mention all the security costs of screening global commerce and air travel which includes me and my toothpaste and nail clippers domestically.

    The cost has been prosecuted partially in secret, mostly off the books. In 7 years of the war on terror, the national debt will be approx 4 trillion above the start of the war, approx 600 billion per year, not adding on the current 2 trillion bailout package which is linked to the corruption in the way government conducts it’s business in Iraq and elsewhere.

    So what if I maybe fudged a hundred bil or so per year to round it off and lumped the whole thing as Iraq to allow for hidden costs? The war in Iraq is the main suck of national debt and the poster child of why it will be in the 11-12 trillion range by the time the new prez takes office.

    We also don’t know how much debt is off the books, packaged in secret “off shore” government deals. The government has assimulated the corporate ponzi schemes of operations, so the sky is their limit until it all comes crashing down which is what has been happening, or maybe you ain’t been payin’ attention.

    You may like the koolaide, but I don’t have to.

  555. September 29, 2008 at 01:06

    528 portlandmike September 28, 2008 at 9:56 pm
    @ the bail out bill
    Kucinich just now on CNN says, “I’m not going to vote no. Im going to vote HELL no!”

    Protecting the public interest in any economic “bailout” (by Dennis or office)
    http://kucinich.us/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2442&Itemid=1

    Kucinich floats his own Wall Street bailout plan
    http://blog.cleveland.com/openers/2008/09/kucinich_floats_own_bailout_pl.html
    Since the bailout will cost each and every American about $2,300, tomorrow I will offer legislation to create a United States Mutual Trust Fund, which will take control of $700 billion in stock assets, at market value and not higher, convert those assets to shares, and distrubte $2,300 worth of shares to new individual savings accounts in the name of each and every American.

    Kucinich: Bailout ‘Driven by Fear Not Fact’
    http://usatodaytv.feedroom.com/?fr_story=FRdamp303452&rf=rss

  556. 569 Kelsie in Houston
    September 29, 2008 at 01:21

    @Julie:
    Somehow I doubt he’ll be quite as popular as Shel Silverstein…

  557. 570 Kelsie in Houston
    September 29, 2008 at 01:24

    The world’s economic attention has been largely focused on the “credit crunch”; Premiere Wen Jibao, however, highlighted the strengths of his own nation’s economy in a recent speech:

    http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-09/27/content_10122288.htm

  558. 571 Jessica in NYC
    September 29, 2008 at 01:26

    @ Jonathan
    Brovo! Your comment about Steve was a well deserved observation. He often makes comments that could be categorized as “Women–you can’t trust them!” Usually, it’s just the women on the blog challenging the anti-women comments.

    @ Bryan and Steve,
    A bit sensitive, are we?

    I read the post Joathan made about Steve’s comments. He in no way attacks Steve. Gentlemen, let’s get a grip, disagreeing with someone or questioning their choice of post is not an attack.

  559. 572 Jessica in NYC
    September 29, 2008 at 01:27

    @ John in Salem
    “please stay home on election day and leave the voting to people who have been conscious for the last 8 years.”
    Nice thought, but democracy doesn’t work this way. All are create equal and we must allow the undecided to vote and wishy-washy people.

    @ Jens
    “…My little toe has more brains than she has.”
    Maybe we should require an IQ test for President and VP candidates, or maybe we should just test your toes for abnormalities. We might need to figure out how to bottle your intellect and turn it a pill for the less fortunate.

    @ Steve and Julie P
    RE: accents

    I miss using the world y’all living in NYC. In the south, it funny when people ask me if I’m in a hurry, because I speak fast.

  560. 573 steve
    September 29, 2008 at 01:31

    @ Jessica

    That he even wrote it was an attack. You and selena just aren’t being objective. YOu agree with Jonathan, you don’t agree with me. There is just simply too much bias and a lack of objectivity here. That was as a personal attack. It also added nothing to the blog. Do you want to encourage more posts like that? Do we need to now ask Jonathan what topics we can discuss as well?

  561. 574 Jessica in NYC
    September 29, 2008 at 01:35

    @ Steve,

    I don’t mind your multiple news stories post. I read some of them. I can understand why Jonathan made those comments. Most of your opinions are very harsh on women based on generalizations. It’s NOT personal attack, it’s an observation. If we post comments on a blog for the world to see, opinions of us will be formed based on them. When you make open ended comments that make generalization of women being psychos, untrustworthy, gold-diggers, provocative it will push buttons. Most recently, you took another jab at women saying they all went shopping during the Feds take over of WAMU. So how do you expect people not to take your attacks personal, but get upset we criticize you on the premise of your statements.

  562. September 29, 2008 at 01:38

    538 Jonathan September 28, 2008 at 11:17 pm
    One more time: There is no “trillion dollars annually for Iraq.” Someone has estimated that the entire Iraq war could conceivably cost a trillion dollars from start to finish, which includes some outer-edge dubious methods and assumptions like calculating lifetime care through the VA, and other costs far in the future, impossible to determine, and arguably not attributable to the war.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/feb/28/iraq.afghanistan
    The true cost of war
    Some time in 2005, Joseph Stiglitz, a Nobel prize-winner in economics, and Linda Bilmes….revised the figure [for the estimate for the cost of the war] sharply upwards, to between $1 and $2 trillion. Even that, Stiglitz says now, was deliberately conservative. Stiglitz and Bilmes have discovered, after months of chasing often deliberately obscured accounts, is that in fact Bush’s Iraqi adventure will cost America – just America – a conservatively estimated $3 trillion. By describing the process, by detailing individual costs, by soberly listing the consequences of short-sighted budget decisions, they have produced a picture of comprehensive obfuscation and bad faith whose power comes from its roots in bald fact. Daily military operations have already cost more than 12 years in Vietnam… America is spending $16bn a month on running costs alone (ie on top of the regular expenses of the Department of Defence) in Iraq and Afghanistan. Large amounts of cash go missing[, including] the less-publicised millions that fall between the cracks at the Department of Defence, which has failed every official audit of the past 10 years.

    see also
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11880954
    Cost of Iraq war could surpass $1 trillion

    http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news/local/rodricks/blog/2008/09/the_war_comes_center_stage.html
    The War comes center stage
    The war has cost $800 billion…

  563. September 29, 2008 at 01:46

    I did not know that Juan Cole had passing knowledge of Farsi, but mashallah.

    Obama goes over the top in bashing Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

    The Iranian regime has made numerous hateful comments about Israel and is hostile to the Zionist state, and it is natural that this rhetoric should make the Israelis nervous. … But to distort the colorful Ahmadinejad’s words, to mistranslate him, to misrepresent him as in control of the Iranian military, or to pretend that he represents a consensus in the Iranian political elite is to build a fantasy world as insubstantial and whimsical as a SimCity computer game.

    Ahmadinejad…explain[ed] that when he quoted Ayatollah Khomeini to the effect that “this occupation regime over Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time,” he did not mean that “Israel must be wiped off the face of the map” (as the quotation was mistranslated). [H]e meant that the Israeli state’s policies of committing crimes against the Palestinians and killing them and occupying them must vanish. He added, “Our solution is in fact a completely humane and democratic one. What we’re saying is that…people should gather and determine the type of government they would like to have.” In other words, he says he means by the vanishing of the regime a single democratically elected state in Israel and Palestine.

  564. 577 Kelsie in Houston
    September 29, 2008 at 01:49

    @WHYS Community:
    Could we please accept the fact that this situation isn’t going to be resolved immediately, take the dispute to emails, and let the blog get on with a global conversation about issues? I’m not singling anyone out and I’m aware that my status as a new moderator makes my voice easy to ignore, but this has become exasperating.

    Ecuador is on its twentieth constitution:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7640704.stm

  565. 578 steve
    September 29, 2008 at 01:50

    @ Jessica

    A personal attack is an attack on a SPECIFIC person posting on the blog. Even if your baseless assetion that implies I hate women were true, that’s not a personal attack unless I mentioned a particular person. Other posters, picked up on and know it’s a personal attack what Jonathan did. You really need to learn to be objective. I don’t allow personal attacks on you, or Selena, or anyone that I disagree with. I can’t say the same has been done to me, especially when being told that being called a “5th columnist traitor” is not a personal attack.

  566. 579 Kelsie in Houston
    September 29, 2008 at 01:51

    @Shirley re economics:
    When we talk about “a trillion” or “trillions,” are we focused solely on US expenditures, or those of the coalition as a whole?

  567. 580 steve
    September 29, 2008 at 01:52

    @ Jessica

    You’ve also said “I don’t respect you” to me on this blog before. I guess that’s not a personal attack, just an observation? And you made that simply because I don’t hold the same views as you do.

  568. 581 Julie P
    September 29, 2008 at 01:55

    @Kelsie,

    I thought the choice of OBL in the Yale library was a tad odd. However, since I don’t attend Yale, or will get anywhere near it I won’t be reading of his poetry. I’ll have to stick to Margret Atwood.

  569. 582 Jessica in NYC
    September 29, 2008 at 01:55

    @Julie P

    The things done in the name of academia is surprising. I think it was Yale earlier this ear who was in diplomatic hot water for “borrowing” artifacts from South American (I think it was in Peru) and taking them out of the county with out permission.

  570. 583 Julie P
    September 29, 2008 at 01:58

    @Jess,

    How weird.

    I recall earlier this year a professor at Cambridge wanting to relax the rules on commonly misspelled words, like judgment and others. If I remember correctly he felt spelling some words phonetically would be acceptable, never mind he is teaching a world premier university.

  571. 584 Kelsie in Houston
    September 29, 2008 at 01:58

    @Jessica:
    That’s very interesting about Yale vis-á-vis Peru–were the artifacts returned?

    @Julie:
    Yale and OBL seem like strange bedfellows, but I am not aware of where the large centers for Arabic studies in the United States are.

    @Lubna in absentia
    Ramadan mubarak.

  572. 585 Jens
    September 29, 2008 at 01:59

    @ jessica,

    don’t try to bottle my intellect. i need the little bit i have left for myself.

    the issue for me is that palin is on the dim side of the moon, and still i have friends who think she will be just fine running the country……i just don’t get them. we are at the abyss and there are still people out there who think a guy who came in 395 out of 400 at the airforce academy,changing his mind every 5 min and somebody who cannot formulate a coherent thought are more capable of running this country than a harvard gradute, who tought constitutional law……….bill maher had a great sketch about white criminals and how society shaped them…..

  573. 586 Amy
    September 29, 2008 at 02:01

    Everyone,

    If someone posts a link and give a brief description of what the story is and it doesn’t interest you, don’t click on the link and move past the post. Just because you aren’t interested doesn’t mean no one is interested. Please do not bash on the poster. Things here seem to be too much like a playground….

    Steve and Jonathan, shake hands and play nice or I’ll be forced to give you both a time out. Just ask my girls to see if I am a mean mama!

  574. 587 Jens
    September 29, 2008 at 02:05

    @ steve,

    please step over your own shadow. if others have acknoweladge that jonathons remarks were a bit on the personal side, your point has been vindicated. over and done. you fire with pretty hard ammunition and therfore people fire back. i know i have fired at you as well, because i felt attacked by you.

    THE IMPORTANT word here is FELT. feelings can A) be hurt quickly and B) are in the eye of the beholder.

    i have no problems in getting into fight about something and in large this here is a pretty friendly crowd.

  575. 588 Julie P
    September 29, 2008 at 02:08

    @Jess,

    You may miss some of the southern euphemisms of the south, but these days living here isn’t as stress free in the days of yore.

    Check this out:

    http://www.wsbtv.com/video/17577156/index.html

    I’m a tad frustrated about it. It’s supposed to be remain this severe for another two weeks and our gas supplies won’t get back to pre-Ike levels for a month.

  576. 589 steve
    September 29, 2008 at 02:11

    @ Jens

    So how exactly was my post about a helicopter crash where I live something that would cause Jonathan to feel that way?

    I don’t agree with lots of people on here, but I still don’t personally attack them like that, nor do I suggest that certain topics cannot be discussed on here.

    But whatever.

  577. 590 Jessica in NYC
    September 29, 2008 at 02:12

    @ Steve

    “Even if your baseless assetion that implies I hate women were true, that’s not a personal attack unless I mentioned a particular person.
    No, when you say things like women are psychos, it’s an a personal jab at all women reading the comment.

    “I don’t allow personal attacks on you, or Selena, or anyone that I disagree with.”
    Neither do I, when I have hosted discussions as a mod, I have deleted two post from regular bloggers that attacked you with language that violated the bbc whys rules.

    “You really need to learn to be objective.”
    Master of diplomacy, please teach me how to be objective. I stand by what I said and if you want my respect then stop insulting me.

  578. 591 steve
    September 29, 2008 at 02:14

    @ Jens

    Mccain was in the Navy. He went to the Naval Academy.

  579. 592 Kelsie in Houston
    September 29, 2008 at 02:17

    @Julie, et al:
    Does anyone know how “price freezes” work in a declared state of emergency? I am told our prices–which are still largely pre-Ike (ca. $3.38/gal) will remain in this range for as long as six months, due to federal and state laws against price gouging…

    Toxic milk, or no milk?
    http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5hHXCHXUWkRJyI7qrkghCDArMty9A

  580. 593 steve
    September 29, 2008 at 02:19

    @ Jessica

    How am I insulting you? By not agreeing with you?

    You just said that you deleted comments towards me that attacked me due to the language. Even if they use non banned words, it’s still a personal attack. You don’t have to use profanity to make a personal attack. Jessica, you said to me on here before “I do not respect you” then you said you don’t allow personal attacks on me when you’ve personally attacked me.

    Let’s just take an example, say if I really did think that all women were psychos, which I don’t. If I say “all women are psychos” that’s not a personal attack on any individual member, otherwise we would have to ban virtually every comment about Jews or Muslims, because there are on a daily basis her “muslims want to take over the world” or “jews control the media”. Do you see? A personal attack is an attack on a specific person, not a general group. You really need to understand this. A group is not an indiviual. Personal attacks regard individuals and WHYS has a rule that says no personal attacks are allowed.

  581. 594 Julie P
    September 29, 2008 at 02:20

    @Kelsie,

    I think Nixon did that in the early 70’s. I stress think. I was really young back then.

    I’m not sure how that works exactly. I’m not really big on setting price floors and ceilings though, but with hyperinflation I may make an exception.

  582. 595 Bob in Queensland
    September 29, 2008 at 02:21

    Good morning all!

    I see while I was away we’ve had a burst of whatever-is-the-opposite-of-brotherly-love. Amy is right about time-outs. Maybe we need a WHYS naughty step.

    However, what sparked the dispute does bring up a question I’ve tried to touch on in here before: “what constitutes a WHYS story?”.

    Now, the obvious answer is “whatever people want to talk about” since the whole idea of WHYS is that people can have their say on topics that interest–or disturb. or anger, or upset–them. The thing is–to create a GOOD topic there must be room for discussion and, for there to be room for discussion there must be at least two sides to an issue. I doubt many people here want to take the pro-helicopter crash side! Sometimes it can all come down to how you phrase a question. How about “helicopters have a safety record about 5 times worse than fixed wing aircraft. Should they be allowed to fly over built up areas?”.

    The other half of finding a good WHYS topic is “have we done it all before?”. We all have pet topics–some of us almost to the exclusion of other things. We need to be aware that it’s possible to overdo even the most valit topic or opinion. I run out of new things to say on a number of the “old favourites” in here. Sometimes the best bet is just to say nothing if you can’t find something truly new and interesting.

    Anyway, my Monday morning (for you guys Sunday night) musings.

  583. 596 jamily5
    September 29, 2008 at 02:22

    @Julie P.
    WhWhile Steve does tend to bash women, Jonathan’s
    Jonathan
    September 28, 2008 at 11:05 pm

    postwas chastizing Steve because he posted the helecopter incident. If Jonathan wanted to take issue with Steve’s views on women, I suggest that he find one of his many woman-bashing posts to contradict.
    Actually, I like when Steve posts articles because that leads us to discuss new topics and not rehash the “oldies but goodies.”
    Just my $0.02

  584. 597 steve
    September 29, 2008 at 02:24

    @ Bob

    That’s interesting, but if you notice, half of the day people were discussing a storm that was hitting the Maritimes. There is no two sides to that story, so no debate, yet the person who brought up the story didn’t get attacked. And I can only guess why. People have been discussing accents as well. Is there really a debate about that? No, but it’s interesting. And I brought up Paul Newman’s death Yesterday. there’s no debate about that, no two sides, yet people were discussing that all day. If people aren’t interested in a story, then they simply won’t discuss it. You don’t need to attack the person providing the link.

  585. 598 Jessica in NYC
    September 29, 2008 at 02:26

    @ Jens
    I agree, it’s shocking and scary that she is a male version of Bush. Did you ready my post earlier of the critisiam of Palin’s inabiility to give a coherent anwser? Even fox networks were scornful of her, but that story on their main page seems to have been taken down. LOL, I guess they can’t trust this kind of information to their supporters.

    @ Julie P and Kelsie

    From what I remember, they had permission to study them, but not remove them from the country. Yes, Yale returned them. If I am not mistaken, Yale does have one of the largest Arab study programs in the US. Many US military folks have received graduate degrees from there.

  586. 599 Julie P
    September 29, 2008 at 02:26

    @Jamily5,

    I think you are referring to another woman on this blog. I am behaving like Switzerland.

  587. 600 jamily5
    September 29, 2008 at 02:30

    @Julie P.
    I meant Jessica. You seemed to steer clear of that debate. As a consequence, (because I think that I unfortunately have done this before), I will call you Jessica on a regular basis.
    (smile) It is that or write “Jessica,” 500times, so I remember to write her name instead of yours. Well, my sincere appologies!!!!

  588. 601 jamily5
    September 29, 2008 at 02:32

    Yes, Julie P. I saw your post and before I read it, I realized my mistake!!! appologies again!

  589. 602 Julie P
    September 29, 2008 at 02:32

    @Jamily5,

    Not a problem. I think we’ve all done that from time to time.

  590. 603 Kelsie in Houston
    September 29, 2008 at 02:33

    @Julie:
    Well, I hope things get better in your area–from what I hear on local news outlets, the refineries are almost all back on their feet, hopefully this will result in a marginal decrease in pump prices.

  591. 604 Amy
    September 29, 2008 at 02:34

    Julie,

    I want my Swiss chocolate!!!

  592. 605 Amy
    September 29, 2008 at 02:36

    Kelsie,

    What is the gas situation there in Houston? If Atlanta is so hard it I am curious about your area. Also, what about the rest of the East/Southeast coast of the US?

    We seem to be fine here in Oregon and the price has actually gone down a bit (sorry, I’m not trying rub it in.)

  593. 606 Kelsie in Houston
    September 29, 2008 at 02:39

    @Amy:
    I’ve been out and about in my exurb and have seen prices range between roughly $3.37 (lowest) to around $3.79 (highest). We did not see a sharp rise after Ike–prices had been hovering around $3.29-$3.35 pre-Ike.

    Because of Houston’s proximity to the Royal Dutch Shell and British Petroleum refineries in Beaumont, Texas City, and environs, our gas prices are on average about 10-25¢ cheaper than elsewhere…it’s good to hear about Oregon’s drop–hopefully that bodes well for the future. I am not sure about the rest of the Gulf Coast…

  594. 607 Julie P
    September 29, 2008 at 02:41

    @Kelsie,

    It’s bad here it’s really bad. There is no gas, or very little. Of course, for me I am living in one of the worst hit areas of Atlanta, thus exacerbating the situation. There are seven gas stations just to the south of me that intermittently have gas. Of course, I’m never there when they have it. I only see it on the news. There are two gas stations to the north of me that have been out of gas since Ike struck. There is one gas station two blocks from job that has gas every other day. According to the news in Atlanta and Winston-Salem gas supplies will remain at their current level for the next two weeks, which means I’ll have to start looking for gas when it gets down to half a tank. I got near a quarter of tank of gas by the time the gas station near my job got gas. It is expected that gas supplies will get back to their pre-hurricane levels by Halloween.

    The problem is that were back to back hurricanes, so the refineries were shut down for the better part of the month, thus affecting gas supplies. To add gas supplies are at an 18 year low on top of it. Deep sigh.

    If the BBC ever wants to interview me about life will be like when oil runs out I’m their woman.

    I don’t care about the price too much I just want some gas! Although I did see on the news a gas station in Cobb Country was price gauging at $8.82. The governor is going after them.

  595. 608 Kelsie in Houston
    September 29, 2008 at 02:44

    @Julie:
    Wow! I was not aware there was a situation of that magnitude in Atlanta. Why? We went through a couple of days of that post-Ike, foraging for generator fuel. Two stations near my home had lines of literally dozens upon dozens of vehicles waiting in line. I think part of the city’s restiveness was the almost panicked feel many had when seeing those lines… I certainly hope things improve. I’m shocked–was there something in Georgia I missed on the news?

  596. 609 Kelsie in Houston
    September 29, 2008 at 02:47

    @Julie:
    Watched video–is it solely due to Ike? That’s incredible. And your governor is apparently in Europe; Congressional delegation busy bailing out Wall Street…

  597. 610 jamily5
    September 29, 2008 at 02:49

    @Pink,
    Jamily (when you log in), I am still pondering your questions on the child abandonment issue. I am not advocating for a removal of the safe haven law. I
    just wish that we as a society would take better care of our famlies.

    So, Pink, what are your thoughts about which steps to take?
    I feel the same about our elderly.

  598. September 29, 2008 at 02:51

    577 Kelsie in Houston September 29, 2008 at 1:49 am
    @WHYS Community:
    Could we please accept the fact that this situation isn’t going to be resolved immediately, take the dispute to emails, and let the blog get on with a global conversation about issues?

    Which situation, please? Thank you.

  599. 612 Julie P
    September 29, 2008 at 02:52

    @Kelsie,

    We’re like LA, a driving city. I don’t recall when this happened, but our smog started getting so bad that that the Feds threatened to cut off road funding if we did not do something about our smog. In the mean time the EPA set strict guidelines about the grade of fuel we can burn here to combat our smog problem, which has worked. So we need a special grade of fuel and the refineries that produce are not back online yet. The governor, genius that he is, did not petition the EPA to relax the rules for a week, thus adding to the problem. I am going to point out that Atlanta is not the only city in the south with that problem. Charlotte, NC is having is in the same position and parts of NC too.

  600. 613 jamily5
    September 29, 2008 at 02:55

    This is not a jab at McCain.

    Elder abuse:
    This article is a bit old: but is interesting:
    Posted on July 8, 2008 by
    Kathy McManus

    There’s an age when society expects people to be responsible—usually about 21.

    But is there also an age when people are no longer expected to be responsible?

    How about 73? That’s the age a California widower named
    Robert Pyle
    , was when he made a series of decisions that triggered a financial freefall, resulting in the loss of his $650,000 home and $500,000 life savings.

    Now 81, Mr. Pyle is suing the financial institutions and various people he trusted with his money, claiming he should be compensated because he is too old
    to bear full responsibility for his actions.

    “I still make pretty good decisions about most things,” said Mr. Pyle, a retired aerospace engineer. “But for others, I guess I’m not as sharp as I was
    before, and people take advantage of that.”

    Mr. Pyle is part of a growing trend of older Americans filing lawsuits against people and companies they say defrauded them of precious financial resources.
    Their argument is the same: because they are older they should not be held responsible.

    According to the
    National Center on Elder Abuse
    , protecting senior citizens from financial victimization—even when it’s caused by their own mistakes—is now critical. “If we don’t solve this,” said a
    spokeswoman, “millions of older people will suddenly be reliant on their families or the government.”

    After Mr. Pyle’s loss, he was forced to move into a small room in his stepdaughter’s house. “I guess I’m just kind of waiting for the end,” he said.

    But allowing people to void contracts, get refunds, and abdicate responsibility simply because of advanced age is unfair, critics insist. One of the defendants
    in Mr. Pyle’s lawsuit says “There is no business on earth that can function if its customers can say, ‘I’m tired of abiding by this contract, so I want
    out because I’m old.’”

    My thoughts are that it should not be the Gov. responsibility, but the family of the elderly. They know the elder person better than laws set by an arbitrary Gov. But, sadly, families will not care for their elderly and they are left to the Gov. And, isn’t the document a bit disturbing. Many elderly people can still care for themselves and finances. Have we discussed this topic?

  601. 614 Kelsie in Houston
    September 29, 2008 at 02:58

    @Pink:
    A tempest in a teapot…hopefully the storm has passed.

    @Julie:
    It shocks me that Atlanta is still feeling (or is it “just now”?) the effects of Ike on the fuel supply–and that this hasn’t made some national news outlet. Even with the suspension of EPA strictures, it will be awhile (I am guessing) before supply manages to overtake demand. Houston has its fair share of smog…

  602. 615 Bob in Queensland
    September 29, 2008 at 02:59

    Re: Gas Shortages

    Did I see somewhere that the shortages started something like THE DAY AFTER the hurricane?

    If so, then the hurricane itself isn’t the direct cause since it takes a bit of time for things like that to filter through the system…the gas you’re driving on today has been in a local storage tank for a while.

    I can only assume that gas companies are anticipating a shortage and holding onto stocks hoping to be able to raise prices and/or consumers are anticipating a shortage and panic buying making for a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    Either way, this is a microcosm of what’s wrong on Wall Street. Too often the “free market” isn’t reacting to what’s really happening but, rather, to what people think MIGHT happen. This in turn causes the market to react in exactly that way even if it’s not really justified.

  603. 616 Julie P
    September 29, 2008 at 02:59

    @Kelsie,

    It’s just not now. It started the day after.

  604. 617 Julie P
    September 29, 2008 at 03:01

    @Bob,

    It’s both. I do have several posts about that on here.

  605. 618 Kelsie in Houston
    September 29, 2008 at 03:02

    @Bob:
    Good point, and as long as the Atlantic remains unstable, the companies will remain reticent.

    @Julie:
    Even with the suspension of EPA strictures, supply won’t overtake demand for quite a while–I don’t suppose Atlanta could lean on surrounding cities or states for emergency, stopgap supply? That might not even be a real solution; these were just ideas we tossed around during our own dearth of fuel…

  606. September 29, 2008 at 03:02

    579 Kelsie in Houston September 29, 2008 at 1:51 am
    When we talk about “a trillion” or “trillions,” are we focused solely on US expenditures, or those of the coalition as a whole?

    US. I have not seen an estimate for the aggregate spending of the international coalition.

  607. 620 Bob in Queensland
    September 29, 2008 at 03:03

    Just a housekeeping note: please can people be a bit more careful about the length of their posts. I’ve approved one or two lately that were really on the long side (but not approving would have disrupted the flow of conversation). If you have to scroll to read a post it’s probably too long….and may well be ignored by most readers anyway!

  608. 621 Jens
    September 29, 2008 at 03:05

    steve,
    i agreed with you, remember? no idea why jonathan reacted that way. i thout he was in the navy and then my brain went airforce, thanks for pointing this out, before i repeat supid again.

    jessica,

    yes, a bit of a worry if even your home station is worried about the VP selection. i just hope biden is going to be taktfull…………………………pointing out the shortcomings. she might think she is pitfull, but biden can be a rottweiler and i worry more about rottweillers

  609. 622 Jessica in NYC
    September 29, 2008 at 03:06

    @ Julie P
    RE: Gas

    That is one thing I dislike about most cities, the dependency on cars. Don’t know how most of you cope.

    @ Jamily5
    I did not mind the article Steve posted. I cannot speak for others.

  610. 623 Jens
    September 29, 2008 at 03:07

    amy,

    relax, you can get lindt………………….i know because it is available even in my little mountain store 😉

  611. 624 Kelsie in Houston
    September 29, 2008 at 03:08

    @Pink:
    Spending for the coalition as a whole must have exceeded $1 trillion by now…

  612. 625 Kelsie in Houston
    September 29, 2008 at 03:09

    @Pink:
    Something you might find interesting:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7636142.stm

  613. 626 Bob in Queensland
    September 29, 2008 at 03:16

    RIGHT. I TRIED MUSING, NOW I’M YELLING. ANY MORE CHAT ABOUT STEVE AND JONATHAN’S ONLINE TIFF WILL NOT BE APPROVED/WILL BE DELETED.

    Take it off-blog to email if you must.

  614. 627 Julie P
    September 29, 2008 at 03:17

    @Bob,

    Sorry about the long posts. I do try to keep mine to a reasonable length. It’s just trying to explain this gas shortage thing…

  615. 628 Jessica in NYC
    September 29, 2008 at 03:20

    @ Bob
    RE: language and image consultants

    People still have a Brady Bunch view of politics and think such things do not exist. Even though entire groups of people base their opinions on it, which is why said consultants have a job. For that matter, why we have PR firms whose sole business is to spin stories and images. You can now get a masters in the art of Public Relations (not the same as communications or journalism).

    @ Jens

    I am torn about how I want this Thursday’s debate to go. While I want Biden to be a rottweiler to expose her incompetence as a potential VP, he will come off as bashing a women. Is it possible to treat her equally and be not be seen as a sexist man or as beating up on her?

  616. 629 Julie P
    September 29, 2008 at 03:20

    @Kelsie,

    Charlotte is doing that. They are having gas trucked in from Raleigh. They don’t think it will be of much use.

    Atlanta is a city of 5.1 million people. Getting gas from other states or cities is an effort in futility.

  617. 630 Julie P
    September 29, 2008 at 03:27

    @Jess,

    I don’t drive more than 10 miles in any given direction. I live in a major metropolitan city, everything I could possibly need is never far away. The draw back to public transportation here is that if you do not live in the center of the city it’s pathetic. I believe is holder over from the Jim Crow days.

  618. 631 Kelsie in Houston
    September 29, 2008 at 03:29

    @Julie:
    I am simply floored–seriously. I guess blame really rests with the governor. As regards public transit: yes I agree completely–if you’re not living in the city center, Houston mass transit is a major headache, provided you can reach it at all…

    For the non-Americans: is public transit more “public” in places like Brisbane or London–specifically for the ‘burbs?

  619. 632 Kelsie in Houston
    September 29, 2008 at 03:30

    And I wasn’t aware the Atlanta area was that big–that’s about 0.9m less than Houston, the fourth-largest in the country. That kind of mass inaccessibility to fuel is a disaster in and of itself, especially in the United States of the Car.

  620. 633 Bob in Queensland
    September 29, 2008 at 03:34

    @ Jess

    Re: Language and Image Consultants

    My last “staff” job before retirement was running as small TV facility that some friends of mine and I started. Our second biggest revenue stream in the studio was hiring our our facilities to companies that did “media traing days” for politicians, company executives and so on. In a (usually one day) course they were taught how to come across well on radio and TV and given practice in things like on-camera demeanour, coping with a “down the line” interview via an earpiece…and how to deflect questions they didn’t want, how to appear sincere etc. etc.

    There were numerous companies offering this training and they all seemed to be fully booked!

  621. 634 jamily5
    September 29, 2008 at 03:36

    No, it is my post. I can’t seem to post a link and try not to, but post a large portion of the article. Sorry! HMM, what’s the length – how many lines?

  622. 635 Julie P
    September 29, 2008 at 03:41

    Nighty night all. It’s bed time and I have a ten mile walk to work in the morning. 🙂

  623. 636 Kelsie in Houston
    September 29, 2008 at 03:42

    @Julie:
    Good luck with the fuel situation–it sounds like you folks need all you can get.

  624. 637 Julie P
    September 29, 2008 at 03:44

    @Kelsie,

    One last thing. That video you saw was filmed a mile from my apartment.

    Chau!

  625. 638 Dennis@OCC
    September 29, 2008 at 03:55

    @ Julie and the situation about petrol:

    I feel sorrow for her and the rest….

    @ PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION:

    Here in Syracuse, At least we have public transportation, via the BUSES…
    http://WWW.CENTRO.ORG

    [For the interest of full disclosure, as a student at OCC, we are given for the entire school From August 2008 until i think May 2009, free bus fare anyplace in Onondaga County]….

    @ THE CONTINUED TIFF:
    I have to agreed with Bob in Queensland….

    Good night!
    Dennis

  626. September 29, 2008 at 04:01

    Jamily, I think that the only question thta jas been swimming in my head these days is just what kind of support we should expect from our government for the establishment and stabilisation of families. Given the sluggishness of my mind these days, it could take a while for me to think it out.

  627. 640 Paul Harbin - Waco, Tx.
    September 29, 2008 at 05:26

    The new version, developed through research led by Yi Cui, assistant professor of materials science and engineering, produces 10 times the amount of electricity of existing lithium-ion, known as Li-ion, batteries. A laptop that now runs on battery for two hours could operate for 20 hours, a boon to ocean-hopping business travelers.
    “It’s not a small improvement,” Cui said. “It’s a revolutionary development.”

    The lithium ion batteries we use in the Tesla Roadster eliminate the problem. So there is no need to worry about waiting until the battery pack is fully discharged before recharging it: feel free to charge your car whenever you have access to power.
    —————————————
    220-240 miles x 10 = Wow!!! Imagine …. a car sized battery for your house?
    bye bye OPEC, Co2, hello solar and wind powered everything! If I were to have one wish in life granted, you would talk to this guy.

  628. 641 Bob in Queensland
    September 29, 2008 at 05:38

    @ Paul Harbin

    WordPress seem to be having some problems today…I have a similar problem when I try to post. It’s taking as long as a minute after I hit submit but if I touch anything I get the “you appear to have posted that before” message.

    I’ll let the beeb know about this when they get in later today.

  629. 642 Jens
    September 29, 2008 at 05:57

    @ jess,

    while i am supporting women where ever i can, we have to step away of protecting women from being exposed as the people they are. what i am trying to say is that running for whatever position, there should not be the fence of “i am a women therfore you cannot attack my knowladge”. all the women working for me, and it is only women, get the same advise: ” you will be attacked in your presentation, but you will be attacked because of the research/results you present, NOT because you are a woman”. one of the woman, a high school student who was the most quite/timid person i ever met, won the science statefair, because i told her to just stick with her knoweladge. nothing counts more. i just wish she keeps her head straight and beats the crap out of anyone at university. she will be one of the people i hope that has gone through my lab and learned that respect and love for people counts more than quick success. i try to start the revolution of nice guys can win. wishfull thinking but at least a wish……the folks in my lab will spread the work, thats 4 more people already. we can win, because change is required. crap i should become a politcian……….i could run with obama……….. 😉

  630. 643 Tom (of Melbourne)
    September 29, 2008 at 07:39

    @ Bob in Queensland,

    Regarding your question of why China isn’t pursuing joint international space ventures such as the ISS. The fact is that the Chinese were excluded from such projects by the US to prevent them from acquiring technologies that could be used to enhance their military capabilities. One of the Chinese science ministers has stated that they “sincerely wants to cooperate with the United States” and take part in the ISS project. This desire is understandable considering the technological benefits this type of cooperation will bring.

    http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-manber16jan16,0,3367993.story

    As for whether or not these missions bring real scientific benefits or another massive propaganda showpiece, both the US and the Soviets have also used their space programmes as a propaganda tool to maximum effect, and as a secondary effect both countries have seen their societies transformed techologically. I’d think China is following a similar path – including technological progression through a mix of purchases and espionage.

  631. 644 Bob in Queensland
    September 29, 2008 at 07:50

    Thanks for that, Tom. I wasn’t aware that China had been specifically excluded from the ISS programme–seems a bit short sighted to me, especially with the imminent end of the shuttle programme and the present state of relations between the USA and Russia.

    As for the propaganda value of what China is doing, basic orbital flights were big news in the early 1960s (and were huge propaganda value then) but I’m much less convinced now.

    As for how confidential rocket technology is, I guess this applies to new designs–but look at some of the things being produced by amateur rocket clubs. It’s only budget, not technology, that stops some of them from achieving orbital velocity and all their stuff is in the public domain.

  632. 645 roebert
    September 29, 2008 at 08:17

    This must be the mother of all ‘blank’ pages, both in length and intensity. I’m glad my question re: political pr body language stunts and so forth got a nod or two, but it still seems that people are happy to be fooled by a nice image rather than look for the real guy behind the make-up.

    For all who may not realize it: my post about morons was a test. I do not actually think that any of the people mentioned in it really are morons, except the morons.

    I also had an anwer to the ‘third option’ for the US that was not really an answer. What I was really asking is: Jeez, isn’t it time for Americans to get away from the two party tyranny and begin to give themselves more political space?

  633. 646 Tom (of Melbourne)
    September 29, 2008 at 08:18

    @ Kelsie in Houston re Public Transport,

    Public Transport in Melbourne is still highly accessible despite the increasing sprawl of the metropolitan area. The fares are time-based and is valid across most modes of public transport, making trips from one end of the metropolis to another very affordable and user-friendly.

    Due to rising petrol cost and worsening traffic congestion, the public rail network has seen a sharp increase in patronage in recent years. However, since improvement to the infrastructure hasn’t kept up with current demand, the rise in patronage has resulted in regular overcrowding and train delays and is fast becoming a major state election issue.

  634. 647 Bob in Queensland
    September 29, 2008 at 08:47

    Credit Crunch?

    I distinctly remember hearing an item on one of the World Service business programmes last week about how a certain US-based bank (“one of the biggest in the world”) was particularly hard hit by the credit crunch and was unlikely to be able to keep lending money.

    Well, in the post today I got some junk mail from exactly that bank telling me how I’m pre-approved for an unsecured personal loan up to a silly amount of money. Take one minute and apply online! Instant decisions!

    If this is how said bank operates when they’re broke and being cautious, goodness knows how they were before. But it’s no wonder the world is in a credit crunch.

    (Oh, and by the way, I’m not applying.)

  635. 648 roebert
    September 29, 2008 at 08:52

    A final word: Tiffs on the blog: I think I’ve often been mistaken in assessing someone’s tone etc., and then gone on to take offence. On blogs you don’t get to see the twinkle in your opponents eye, hear them laughing mischievously, see their hands flapping about in desperation, or watch them climbing the walls as you argue away. So, when their response comes, you think they’re being plain rude. Lighten up ( I say to myself too), only nice people engage in global conversation, after all. The others are at war.

  636. 649 Pangolin-California
    September 29, 2008 at 09:01

    @ Lithium batteries~ I am suspicious of announcements of technologies that promise power densities 10X existing standards. A famous example was the company EESTOR that announced world changing supercapaciter technologies but in the two years since hasn’t produced a single unit that could be given to an independent lab for verification.

    I’m still waiting for my flying car.

  637. 650 Jessica in NYC
    September 29, 2008 at 09:03

    @ roebert
    Funniest and most truthful thing I read all weekend! I concur! Most of my “aggressive” post are written while I am mischievously laughing.

    @ Jens
    Agreed, especially in politics. Unfortunately, it will not be spun that way and it will seem like poor Mrs. Palin was beat on. I’d love for nothing more than to see Biden expose her as the moron his is, but it won’t get him any brownie points with the voters that Obama needs. Look at the difference between how Hillary and Palin are/were treated by the media. What about Biden getting emotion when he spoke about his son, not much was coverage there. These double standards exist. In this case, I’m afraid they could benefit McCain the most. But maybe not and there is hope: Jack Cafferty Tells Us How He Really Feels About Sarah Palin

  638. 651 Bryan
    September 29, 2008 at 09:51

    …only nice people engage in global conversation, after all…

    Must disagree. I think I have experienced and observed far more scorn, insult and pure hatred in a few years of blogging than I have in a lifetime of general interaction in society. For obvious reasons, people feel much freer to indulge themselves online than they do face to face and when not anonymous.

    However, in my opinion this does not lessen the seriousness of the insult.

  639. 652 Pangolin-California
    September 29, 2008 at 09:53

    @ Financial Crisis~ I note that despite increasingly frantic insistence that all the kings horses and all the kings men can put Humpty Dumpty back together again the London market opened with a two percent dive.

    The idea that the same crew with the same guidelines are going to somehow turn banks around after they were the ones to run them into the ground is crazy. People know this is crazy. Why are our leaders so obsessed with trying to convince people to go along with a crazy plan?

  640. 653 Bob in Queensland
    September 29, 2008 at 10:10

    @ Bryan

    I’m sure I’ve read an actual study (though darned if I can find it online now) that shows people are FAR more likely to be aggressive and argumentative when protected by the relative anonymity of the Internet than they are in real life.

    Quite often that pushy megaposter is actually shy and reclusive.

  641. 654 Jonathan
    September 29, 2008 at 10:27

    @Gasoline shortages

    Julie, you answered your own question about why there are gasoline shortages in Atlanta (and/or anyplace else) when you mentioned that a station was going to be prosecuted for “price gouging.”

    That can only mean that your city, state, and/or region is imposing artificial price controls, with absolutely predictable consequences. If there were a truly free market, you would be able to buy gasoline. The price would be higher for a while, but it would be there. As you said, you don’t so much care about the price; you just want fuel. Unfortunately, your government is not letting you make that choice.

  642. 655 roebert
    September 29, 2008 at 11:37

    Bryan: You’re probably right, which means that I’ve probably been right in taking offence. Truth is, this is the one and only blog I’ve ever been part of, and I think it does subtle things to my mode of communication too (and probably everyone’s). Hard to work it all out, though. I think one can be mistaken in interpreting someone’s posts as this or that, and then concluding that the poster must be this or that kind of person, perhaps the kind one would instinctively dislike, or hate, and so on. Would make a good topic for WHYS actually, and would be close to home.

    Top story in Europe today must surely be Joerg Haider’s comeback, and the route by which he has come back. But then, Europe doesn’t feature much on WHYS, does it?

  643. 656 Bryan
    September 29, 2008 at 12:36

    Bob in Queensland September 29, 2008 at 10:10 am,

    I heard long ago that a fine author who wrote great sea adventure novels around fifty years ago was a meek little guy in person. Name is upon the proverbial tip of my tongue. Some fight physically, some fight verbally and some fight with the mind.

    roebert September 29, 2008 at 11:37 am,

    Yes, blogging definitely does change the way we communicate. And because it is so new we’re only just beginning to understand all the ramifications thereof. And look how Google has changed the way we research information. It’s turned everyone into instant experts. It’s often difficult to tell if a blogger is really knowledgeable on a subject or has simply spent half an hour Googling. But this usually becomes apparent in the course of a sustained debate as the unknowledgeable one will generally soon be exposed or drop out.

    The propagandist who picks and chooses whatever suits his agenda is also fairly easily exposed. In the old days, knowledge was painfully and diligently acquired in class and in reference libraries. In the age of instant access to a bewildering array of often contradictory references on any subject, people are in danger of losing their way.

  644. 657 steve
    September 29, 2008 at 13:55

    Wachovia just failed.

  645. 658 steve
    September 29, 2008 at 13:58

    I am now 100% certain now that you have to be clinically insane to actually want to be the President now given the huge financial disaster that is occuring now.

  646. 659 Kelsie in Houston
    September 29, 2008 at 13:59

    @Roebert:
    It will be interesting to hear/see some reaction from the people on the ground re: the Haider victory.

  647. 660 Amy
    September 29, 2008 at 15:33

    Steve,

    If insanity is what it takes… My sister in law would be PERFECT for the job.