12
Sep
08

Talking Points 12th September

Good morning, Paul C here and thanks to Kelsie in the US for the overnight moderation. It’s always interesting to read what’s been discussed while the UK slumbers. I think I agree with QLD Bob when he says this post is a bit like “America Have Your Say” but that’s no bad thing in my book, we’re all affected by the US in one way or another and I can see that “illegals” and “patriotism” have occupied much of the chat (an interesting poll on second languages here on DailyKos for those interested) . . . is this something that grabs the wider world?

Personally I think we’ve a lot more to hear on the P-word (Patriotism) as the election campaign hots up and I’m sure Ros on the bus will be touching on this as he heads east. Read on for ideas for tonight’s World Have Your Say. As ever — let us know what’s getting you talking today.

 

Zimbabwe

The handshake between Mugabe and TsvangiraiA deal in Zimbabwe . . . or so they say. Has Zimbabwe Bob (not to be confused with QLD Bob) finally ceded some power? The thing is . . . we won’t know the nitty gritty till Monday. Maybe we should wait till then or would you like to hear from some of the players tonight?

Grandparents

Karnie has been doing a lot of investigation into the role of grandparents in rearing children these days (it might have something to do with her own impending motherhood!). Do follow the above link and let us know if this is something you’re talking about.

Travel — is it worth the hassle?

We’ve discussed the credit crunch at length on WHYS but add to this particular form of misery the collapse of yet another airline (67,000 stranded) and the ongoing blockage due to a fire in the Channel Tunnel (affecting 20,000 people) and I’m beginning to wonder if it’s worth going to France next week for a long weekend . . seriously, I’m thinking “domestic” more and more whenever I plan a trip . . . are you? Or do you think cheap travel is here to stay and we should be taking advantage of it?

Respect sovereignty or get your man?

Is it time to start talking about the Pakistan/Afghan war? Five attacks in the past ten days by US troops into Pakistan territotires in the lawless FATA region according to a report I’m watching on CNN right now. Barack Obama is on record as saying he’d go after Bin Laden in Pakistan without permission if need be . . . well it seems that George Bush wants beat him to it. According to this story an unnamed source says that going over the border from Afghanistan into Pakistan to go after the “bad guys” is now officially sanctioned policy. Many of you in this post overnight drew parallels with Russia’s behaviour in Georgia. When does respecting a country’s borders get trumped by the desire to attack an enemy? Do you think the US should go after the Taliban when they have them in their sights even if it means riding roughshod over a country’s sovereignty? 

How did she do?

Is there any need for me to tell you who I’m referring to? Of course, it’s Sarah Palin in her first TV interview. Read transcripts here. One prominent democratic blogger thinks she flunked on the subject of the Bush doctrine. No surprise that over at Free Republic they think she did ok

Okapi — IT LIVES!

I find it somewhat heart-warming that in this day and age we still get confirmation of a rare species surviving depsite the threat to natural habitats.

The rare okapi in the DRC


Hello all: I’m Kelsie, from Houston, and I’ll be watching over the blog this evening. This is my second time to moderate and I am looking forward to it!

A few points perhaps to start from:

• The seventh anniversary of September 11th was the focus of today’s show, which included among its guests Richard Perle, who seems to have attracted strong opinions all around.

Outgoing U.S. commander Gen. David Petraeus has indicated he will never declare a victory in Iraq.

Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh is prepared to sign a deal for ‘peaceful nuclear cooperation’ with the United States later this month.

A report claims U.S. President George W. Bush authorized military raids into Pakistan in search of al-Qaida and Taliban militants.

What else is everyone interested by? Over to the global conversation…


264 Responses to “Talking Points 12th September”


  1. 1 Anthony
    September 11, 2008 at 19:05

    So, I think that English should be our official language (in the U.S.). I think people should be required to speak English (with age/other restrictions) to get a green card. Anyone else agree with me??? I think this would fix problems and save money over all.

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  2. September 11, 2008 at 19:16

    @ Anthony:
    I know a few blog members who want Spanish to be the primary American language 😉 lol
    We should make citizenship-applicants prove their patriotism… Like Michelle and Obama….

  3. 3 Katharina in Ghent
    September 11, 2008 at 19:22

    @ Brett

    How many times do you have to say “I love America and I’m proud of it” to get the Green Card? Maybe I can do it quickly between lunch break and coffee time… LOL

  4. 4 Julie P
    September 11, 2008 at 19:22

    @Brett,

    The requirement for the applicants will be for them to wear a flag pin on their lapels. If they don’t, then it’s a no go. 🙂

  5. 5 Anthony
    September 11, 2008 at 19:22

    @ Brett

    Yeah, those are the kind of people who want California to be part of Mexico again. That’s a great idea, until you actually think about it!!!

    Don’t you think it would be easier to round up illegal’s with English as our official language, which I’ve heard costs billions upon billions of $$$ a year. That would also save money on bi-lingual classes/books. I dunno. I was just thinking about that for some reason.

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  6. 6 Lauren
    September 11, 2008 at 19:28

    People shoudn’t be required to speak english in order to come here. No one has died because there’s an option to have an application in spanish. If you want to require everyone to speak english- fine. Then require local and federal governments to invest the time and money in classes that teach people english. Don’t complain about a language barrier in the US when there aren’t enough flexable courses available to working adults.

  7. 7 steve
    September 11, 2008 at 19:31

    @ Lauren

    I’m curious, for hte people that come here and choose not to integrate or learn english, haaving society enable them to do this, are they somehow better than my ancestors, and more worthy of having their language/identity/culture protected than my ancestors? Is there something inferior about my ancestors that this wasn’t done for them?

    Why are the new immigrants (especially illegals) so much better than they can’t be expected to do what everyone else did? Why are they better than my ancestors?

  8. September 11, 2008 at 19:34

    The requirement for the applicants will be for them to wear a flag pin on their lapels. If they don’t, then it’s a no go.

    Thats EXACTLY what I was thinking 😉 lol

  9. September 11, 2008 at 19:37

    Todos mejor aprender a hablar español hehe

  10. 10 Kelsie in Houston
    September 11, 2008 at 19:39

    @English:
    Historically, the United States were created by a diverse group of people who spoke a range of languages…on the other hand, it’s really hard to function in large parts of the U.S. without a working knowledge of English.

    @those who support this idea–would you be looking for native-speaker fluency, a rough, working understanding, or somewhere in between? Also, would the age of the applicant affect the degree to which he/she would be expected to know English?

  11. 11 Julie P
    September 11, 2008 at 19:40

    @Brett,

    LOL! I was considering a flag on the outside of the plane, but us poor folk who make less than $5 million, I thought that would be a bit of stretch!

  12. September 11, 2008 at 19:43

    @ Katharina:

    You need to say it 5 times fast, while holding your left hand over your heart, with an american flag lapel pin on your chest and inbetween the tounge twister, reciting the pledge of allegiance… And you get no coffee, or lunch lol.

    Once you pass this task, you are worthy of being a patriotic american…

  13. September 11, 2008 at 19:44

    LOL! I was considering a flag on the outside of the plane, but us poor folk who make less than $5 million, I thought that would be a bit of stretch!

    Well then theres always automobiles (plenty are already doing it!) and bikes 🙂 If youve got neither, better get some red white and blue kicks to walk around in!

  14. 14 roebert
    September 11, 2008 at 19:45

    As far as I can tell, English has never been the only language in the US. Besides all the indigene languages of the Amerindians and the omnipresent Spanish, there are also those weird languages spoken in some parts of the deep South and other areas of the States (including some areas of New York etc.) which, I am told, are supposed to be forms of English, but which cannot be understood by any Englishman.

    Remember the awfully English lady interviewed some weeks ago by the BBC, in connection with Americans banning Koreans from their golf courses, unless they could speak English? This awfully English lady said the following: Why should the Americans ban Koreans for not speaking English? After all, the Americans play on our courses, and they don’t speak English!

  15. September 11, 2008 at 19:51

    Hi gang ! ;-)… I do have a question for Richard Pearl, and also for all of you guys… I do think of that question lots and lots of times… Imagine yourself to be an Iraqi citizen who has lost his four sons after the US-led invasion of Iraq, do you prefer to go back in time to the time when Saddam used to rule Iraq with an iron fist and have your four sons around you alive, safe and sound, or do you prefer to stay in your current time and never go back in time (supposedly you do have the ability to travel through time)?! With my love… Yours forever, Lubna in Baghdad…

  16. 16 Thea Winter - Indianapolis IN, USA
    September 11, 2008 at 19:57

    English should be made the language of the USA. I spent most of my life in San Francesco CA (until Oct 99). The DMV has tests in every language. I say if you do not know enough English to pass the drivers test you should not get one. And you should not get a job. Sorry, that is the way I feel and it may not be correct but lets start taking our country back!

  17. 17 Jens
    September 11, 2008 at 20:01

    the,

    so only english speakers are good enough drivers and are capable to work???? a wee bit racist then aren’t we.

    go and see how far your english will get you in the agricultural fields of california. nada mu guess. and you profit from having cheap food, don’t forget that one.

  18. 18 Lauren
    September 11, 2008 at 20:02

    @ steve

    no one is saying that new immigrants are better and no one’s saying they shouldn’t learn English. Your ancestors weren’t required to learn English- they weren’t required to take citizenship exams. Immigrants from different countries settled in certain areas to be with others who shared the same language/customs. Integration didn’t happen overnight- no one was required to, but the “us” vs. “them” mentality made it difficult for immigrants to keep their identities intact. Would you rather be spit on and called names because you’re Irish or integrate yourself and your kids so they might have an easier time?

    FYI– Congress didn’t even consider making English the official language until 1981 and the proposal was shot down. Therefore, English is the de facto language of the US and the law requires that things must be printed etc, in English, but doesn’t ban the use of other languages. Also, keep in mind that prior to WWI, schools offered bilingual education in areas with large populations of non-native English speakers.

  19. 19 Thea Winter - Indianapolis IN, USA
    September 11, 2008 at 20:02

    Should sports stars receive the pay they do? A lot of these people get paid more the teachers, police, and fire workers. Are they overpaid? What is the pay for these people in other parts of the world?

  20. September 11, 2008 at 20:04

    @ Lapel pin – where is McCain’s? I haven’t seen him wear one for – erm….like……..erm – I can’t remember when he last did.

    Does that make him unpatriotic?

  21. 21 Julie P
    September 11, 2008 at 20:07

    @Will,

    Yes, he’s a spy for the Keiser!

  22. 22 Jennifer
    September 11, 2008 at 20:10

    @ Lauren

    I really disagree. If people want to come here they should learn to speak English. How can they be productive if there is a language barrier? It only isolates them from society and they are unable to become productive here as a result. How can someone continue their education if they can’t speak English here? How can they study for a driver’s license exam? They can’t if they can’t speak and understand English!

    My mom has clients who do not speak English; she speaks to them through an Interpreter. It’s hard for them because they are not able to convey their needs even with regards to their pregnancy directly to her. They are scared to see a doctor also because they can not communicate in English what problems they are experiencing. Some choose to not even receive prenatal care.

    Learning English opens up doors to all of the opportunities that immigrants say they want. If I moved to another country, I would not expect the people there to learn English to make it easier for me. There shouldn’t be a double standard. It is not my responsibility to learn to speak another language because this is my home country.

    Only in America would we expect ourselves to learn another language just to accommodate other people instead of them, as immigrants, assimilating into our society.

  23. 23 roebert
    September 11, 2008 at 20:14

    Thea: All sorts of criminals speak English, too. The language you speak has nothing to do with your integrity etc. You won’t ‘take your country back’ by forcing people to speak English or any other language. Make your national culture into something worth following and admiring, and people will be drawn to it (and to it’s language) by it’s inherent qualities.

    There’s an even better way to take your country back: start learning one or two other languages, and start communicating! It’s great to be multi-lingual,man! I live in a country with 11 (yeah, that’s eleven) official languages, and I speak…let me see…five languages myself. It’s great fun, and you can eavesdrop on people who think you don’t know what they’re saying, and then suddenly spring an appalling surprise on them by telling them in their own language what they’ve just been saying about you, or the way you dress etc.

    Besides that kind of thing, you can read so many more books in the original languages….the benefits are far greater than not having your country back!

  24. 24 Anthony
    September 11, 2008 at 20:18

    @ Lauren

    The problem (at least in California) is that everything through the state also needs to be in Spanish. Also, there are ESL classes in public schools, that are almost completely in Spanish. That’s 2 examples of wasted money. The fact that we have this just divides Californians. Also, I think it would be easier to point our illegals this way, and since this costs the U.S. tax payer billions a year, I think this would help help. Also, the majority of only spanish speakers in CA are just cheap labor.

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  25. 25 Lauren
    September 11, 2008 at 20:18

    @ thea

    Take our country back from whom? Those possibly legal citizens of the US whose native language isn’t English? Let’s say you’re fluent in French and you decide to take a trip to France. Let’s say that you have to fill out some form in order to get a hotel room, rent a car, leave the airport, whatever. If given the option of have the form written in English or French, which form would you feel more comfortable using? I get the feeling that most people would say English because it’s their first language and they know they won’t run into any problems.

  26. 26 grandad
    September 11, 2008 at 20:19

    Roll of grandparent..to pass o wisdom, and try to keep them all together. and hope it works, better than it did for you.

  27. 27 Thea Winter - Indianapolis IN, USA
    September 11, 2008 at 20:26

    Jes,
    No I am not a racist.

    I do speak Spanish and French. I am now learning American Sign Language. I just think that people should speak the language of the place where they work and live. I do not think it is too much to ask to have people speak English in an English speaking country. If people want to speak their home language at home and with their friends I have no problem with that. But when you are in the work place, school, or out and about (like in a store) you should speak English.

  28. 28 Jeff Christman
    September 11, 2008 at 20:29

    I live in Utah, USA and majority of my neighbors speak little to no English, and I feel that is their right as a US Citizens. If I feel the need to communicate with them, I will take an initiative to learn Spanish. All men are created equal, regardless of their Native Language. Besides who says that English in the best language to speak?

  29. 29 Thea Winter - Indianapolis IN, USA
    September 11, 2008 at 20:32

    @ Lauren,
    I am not 100% fluent in French but after two years of classes I know enough to get me around on vacation which is all one needs. After 4 years in Spanish I can speak enough to help people out at my part time job at Sears. However, the people who speak spanish want to have another spanish person help them. Because I am white they think I cannot speak their language. So I don’t even try because they just assume I cannot help them.

  30. 30 steve
    September 11, 2008 at 20:39

    @jeff

    Why is it you taking the “initiative” to learn a language but not the people who come here that don’t learn the language? Why don’t they take the initiative? That’s how you enable people, by catering to them when they should try to blend in.

  31. 31 Thea Winter - Indianapolis IN, USA
    September 11, 2008 at 20:39

    @ roebert
    I do speak two. Spanish and to a lesser extent French (enough to get around and go out to dinner). I have been to other countries and learned some of their language. Please understand. I think if I make an effort to do that for vacations other should learn English if they want to live here.

  32. 32 Lauren
    September 11, 2008 at 20:40

    The question isn’t whether or not immigrants should learn English, it’s should they be forced to learn English to be in the US? Sure speaking English will open up doors since many Americans don’t speak a 2nd language. People are arguing that forms, election ballots etc shouldn’t be printed in other languages, and that isn’t fair to those who are struggling to learn the language but are protected under the laws of this nation because they are citizens, and they are out there!

    @ anthony

    ESL= English as a Second Language. That means those who take those classes don’t speak English. Have you ever taken a foreign language course? Your first year did the teacher not use English to explain the basics to you? I get the emersion argument- dump someone in the water so they learn how to swim- there’s nothing like having your life or livelihood at stake to motivate a person [sarcasm], but there has to be a balance as to how many resources we cut and how many we offer. You can’t expect the Spanish speaking “cheap labor” to lose money that supports them and their families to hope on over to the ESL program 10 miles away to learn English. That’s not a realistic expectation to hold people to.

  33. 33 steve
    September 11, 2008 at 20:40

    @ Thea

    Rather than speaking their language, why don’t they speak your language? You are in Indiana, not Mexico City.

  34. 34 Anthony
    September 11, 2008 at 20:41

    @ Thea

    I used to work at Citibank as a teller, and I got cussed out on multiple occasions because I didn’t know Spanish even though I’m Hispanic (I do know some Spanish, but won’t use it because I feel people in CA should learn English). That was just bologna. And with gangs like MS-13 killing and doing other horrible things, I think making English our official language would help on illegal’s. Now if you pull over a brown person and question his citizenship that’s racist, but if they don’t know English, now it wouldn’t be. At least that’s what I’m thinking.

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  35. 35 steve
    September 11, 2008 at 20:41

    A language barrier will also act as an economic and cultural barrier, leading to self segregation and the consequences of that. Everyone else learned English, why do we need to stop that? Are they better than my ancestors?

  36. 36 Anthony
    September 11, 2008 at 20:45

    @ Lauren

    My mom’s friend came here from Libya, after all her family was killed. She learned English in a few months. I have an Armenian friend who came here and learned English in 3 months, and mostly from the Simpsons and Sesame Street. I had a Mormon friend learn PERFECT SPANISH in 3 months for his mission. These people aren’t learning because they are allowed to not learn. I guarantee if they were stuck in another country where they aren’t given these choices, they would learn that countries language in a few months.

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  37. 37 steve
    September 11, 2008 at 20:46

    @ Jennifer

    There’s also a lot of political correctness that goes along with this. When I was in high school, I sat in on a trial of some hispanic guy who was charged with raping a 5 year old girl. They had all sorts of translators, the guy either didn’t speak english or refused to, but they had a translator, and I got to hear the graphic details of the rape in spanish and then english of witnesses that they translated for the defendant to hear about the accusations against him.

    In that same county, Montgomery County, MD, there was something in the news this past year, some guy from Africa I believe was charged with a similar crime, of raping a young female relative of his. Apparently (i’m sure it’s been updated), he was released and not tried because he claimed to speak a very rare language and that no translators could be found, though he spoke english perfectly, and even went to high school in Maryland..

  38. 38 Jennifer
    September 11, 2008 at 20:50

    @ Jeff

    I think what you said is crucial….”If I feel the need to communicate with them, I will take an initiative to learn Spanish.” Do you frequently attempt to befriend people who are outside your same culture, socioeconomic status, or have different backgrounds than you? The fact is that most people do not do that. So, those people might be waiting forever for you to take that initiative. Wouldn’t it be better if they learned to speak English? That way, they could attend schools, drive (We have many that drive here and I don’t even want to think about how they read the road signs or if they even have a DL!), and become members of our society.

    I think some people believe that because they would be learning a new language they would be loosing or giving up their own culture. That’s just not true.

  39. 39 Anthony
    September 11, 2008 at 20:53

    @ steve

    I saw a bit on youtube, that showed some T.V. show in LA which told illegal’s how to not get in trouble. They told them not to speak any English at all to the police so they don’t get in trouble because of some loop hole. I was like “WHAT?!?!?!”. It made me a bit upset. I couldn’t believe that you can tell people on public T.V. how to get away with things like that.

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  40. 40 Thea Winter - Indianapolis IN, USA
    September 11, 2008 at 20:54

    @ Steve,
    You are correct! I do live in Indiana.
    I agree with your statement:

    A language barrier will also act as an economic and cultural barrier, leading to self segregation and the consequences of that.

    I think the consequences are bring seen here in the blogs.

    @Anthony
    I think I did not make my self clear. In is not that I don’t try. I say yes, but we do have other who speak spanish (they are) and most people just wait for them.

  41. 41 Lauren
    September 11, 2008 at 20:54

    @ Thea

    “Because I am white they think I cannot speak their language. So I don’t even try because they just assume I cannot help them.”

    Does that really surprise you? Given the mentality expressed here about how people shouldn’t have to learn another language to communicate in their own country, why should it shock you that Hispanics don’t assume you speak Spanish? You said that your mother needs an interpreter to talk to her clients- if she didn’t have one, why should Spanish speaking clientele be expected to seek her services when they can find someone who they know will understand them and their needs?

  42. 42 Anthony
    September 11, 2008 at 20:57

    @ Thea

    No, I know you do that, but I don’t speak Spanish on purpose. I kinda Boycott it if the person doesn’t speak English. I was in this Mexican Culture class in college, and I told the class that, ohhh my gosh, they wanted to hang me!!! They called me “the Nazi” after that, and a few other comments, but I don’t think it’s racist, it’s just standing up for what I think is right.

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  43. 43 steve
    September 11, 2008 at 20:58

    @ Anthony

    Well, you don’t really have to talk to the police other than providing your name. To deliberately say you dont understand english, when you actually do, would probably be some form of obstruction of justice, like flashing your high beams to people to show there is a speed trap.

  44. 44 steve
    September 11, 2008 at 20:59

    @ Lauren

    Why not when in Rome, do as the Romans do?

    When I go to Germany i speak in german to the germans, though many want to speak english with me..

  45. 45 steve
    September 11, 2008 at 21:00

    @ Everyone

    Where I live, there are lots of Vietnamese people. Should society here cater to them as well, and put up vietnamese language signs and have Americans learn Vienamese like they do with Spanish? Or is Spanish a special language, worthy of more protection than other languages such as Vietnamese?

  46. 46 Thea Winter - Indianapolis IN, USA
    September 11, 2008 at 21:05

    @ Anthony,
    Thank you for your clarification!

    @ Lauren,
    No it does not surprise me.

  47. 47 Anthony
    September 11, 2008 at 21:06

    @ steve

    Very nice point!!! Where does it stop??? Thats why I feel that almost everyone should know at least English in the U.S., and can learn 100 other languages if they want.

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  48. 48 Thea Winter - Indianapolis IN, USA
    September 11, 2008 at 21:07

    I am looking for a funny photo. I saw it once before. It was a post with every language in it . The post was 12 feet tall or taller. I can not find it.

  49. 49 Jessica in NYC
    September 11, 2008 at 21:11

    Kelsie— the BBC is reporting Bush already authorized an assault and American troops have entered Pakistan.

  50. 50 Lauren
    September 11, 2008 at 21:12

    @ anthony

    The question is- do we want to be that country that is intolerant of those who don’t conform to our needs? People in the US are blessed- while the education system isn’t perfect, everyone has the right to go to school. Schools offer language classes and many times students are required to take a foreign language in order to graduate. We have the opportunity to learn in a classroom setting over years and so many people waste it. Except the fact that the world is getting smaller- deal with it.

    But you know what? Maybe you’re right. Let’s make all the immigrants learn English. They’ll demonstrate a better work ethic because they took the time to learn something instead of having it handed to them. They’ll be bilingual, which will make them better qualified to interact with people both in the US and globally because there isn’t a language barrier. All in all, they will be the more qualified candidate for most jobs, and then when people b*%ch and moan about the immigrants stealing all the jobs, it’ll be be the true because they’ve got more skills!

  51. 51 Kelsie in Houston
    September 11, 2008 at 21:15

    @Jessica:
    What to make of this, then? It couldn’t come at a more compromised time for Pakistan…

  52. 52 Anthony
    September 11, 2008 at 21:19

    @ Lauren

    I’m glad you see it my way 😉 Hehe, j/k

    All I know, is if I went to Mexico (for instance) and said “I want these DMV pamphlets in English, I want my sons school in English, and I expect banks and stores to have English speakers” they’d call me Pocho and laugh after kicking me.

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  53. 53 Kelsie in Houston
    September 11, 2008 at 21:20

    @English
    I could support the idea of mandatory English, but not for nationalistic, “reclaiming the country” motives–as people have pointed out, knowing even rudimentary English in the U.S. goes far in helping one participate in society, and a basic English lexicon is probably necessary for daily survival in many places away from the large cities.

  54. 54 Amy
    September 11, 2008 at 21:20

    Just saw Senators Obama and McCain make a join appearance at Ground Zero. Mrs. McCain, Mayor Bloomberg and Sen. Obama were wearing their flag pins…. but not Sen. McCain. Does that make Sen. Obama more patriotic? I’m waiting for the right wing to yell and scream that Mrs. Obama doesn’t care because she wasn’t there. She’s with her children in case that matters.

  55. 55 Lauren
    September 11, 2008 at 21:20

    @ steve

    I think that the focus has been on Spanish because of the number of Spanish speakers throughout the US. And remember people: Quebec has two official languages- French and English. Both languages appear on signs and the province is still there, they still possess their own identity as a nation and no ones died as a result of having two languages on a stop sign.

  56. 56 Kelsie in Houston
    September 11, 2008 at 21:22

    @Amy:
    Oh, but Mr McCain doesn’t have to prove his patriotism–he’s a veteran ;). Mr Obama, however, doesn’t benefit from such experience…

  57. 57 Jennifer
    September 11, 2008 at 21:24

    @ Steve

    I think that translators should be available, but it does not give immigrants the excuse to not learn English. Maybe it was better that the Hispanic guy did have a translator so that he could not say later that he had not understood the charges against him/or anything else about his trial. It sounds like the African guy who spoke a very rare language was pleased to get away scott free. 😦

    Most of the Hispanic clients my mom sees are not here legally. She has problems at times with the translators because instead of relaying exactly what she says they change it to fit what they believe the woman needs to know. That creates problems because they are not nurses so they lack medical knowledge. She has to say things multiple times and stress the importance of them to ensure that they are passed on. Once, she had a woman who walked around in labor for hours because the translator did not tell her if her contractions continued she needed to go to the hospital immediately. It was horrible.

  58. 58 Lauren
    September 11, 2008 at 21:26

    But remenber, Pocho 😉 due to the tourist industry, there are more places in Mexico that have English pamplets (without complaint) and English speakers because they understand the importance of giving those with limited language skills a hand ( or a swift kick in the butt ) : P

  59. 59 Kelsie in Houston
    September 11, 2008 at 21:26

    @Tom D:
    “Our Declaration of Independence lists the reasons the colonists revolted against England and some of those reasons are violated by the USA Patriot Act.”
    I’m intrigued–please elaborate.

  60. 60 Michael
    September 11, 2008 at 21:40

    I think it is a good idea to have English as the official language for the USA.

    I have traveled to Europe and lived in Asia. Each place I really attempted to learn the local language. And in each place was surprised and impressed at how many people tried to learn English, and how many people studied more than two languages.

    I also think we should require all students in the USA to study both English and another language of that student’s choice. Not just for hospitality and legal aid to foreigners and immigrants, but for national security and diplomacy. (How I wish I had the opportunity to study Chinese language in high school 25 years ago)

    I also think it is necessary to have effective outreach to immigrants so that they have the opportunity to learn English. Remember, to many people, English is very difficult to learn and requires much time for study and practice and good, qualified ESL teachers.

    When I lived in Asia, Even I had studied Chinese language for a year, I would have never been able to drive a car legally if I had not had a translation of my US driver’s license, and would never been able to pass the driver’s test for a local license, if it was not also in English and the local people had not known a little English.

  61. 61 Kelsie in Houston
    September 11, 2008 at 21:42

    Michael:
    I understand most of your points, but how does knowing English play into national security interests?

  62. 62 Michael
    September 11, 2008 at 21:53

    Kelsie, I wrote:

    “we should require all students in the USA to study both English and another language of that student’s choice. Not just for hospitality and legal aid to foreigners and immigrants, but for national security and diplomacy.”

    ALL students (USA students and immigrant/visiting students)

    BOTH English AND another foreign language

    USA students will study English AND a foreign language . . . USA students need to really understand English grammar in order to really learn a foreign language properly for translation and real fluency.

    Immigrants/visiting students will study English and another language

    Having many bi-lingual Americans plays into national security and diplomacy is essential for understanding the communications and cultures throughout the world to have effective diplomacy and avoid misunderstandings.

    Having bi-lingual immigrants/visitors is important so we have people here and now who can help Americans understand and learn their languages and cultures.

  63. 63 Roberto
    September 11, 2008 at 22:02

    People in the US are blessed- while the education system isn’t perfect, everyone has the right to go to school.
    ————————————————————————————————————

    ———– Add in children of the world who can find their way to the US with their parent(s) legally or illegally have the right to free public education and free medical care down at the EMS paid by my rising property taxes.

  64. 64 Kelsie in Houston
    September 11, 2008 at 22:02

    @Michael:
    Is there a particular language you would favor for U.S. students to learn? Arabic might be appropriate, since our foreign policy hinges largely on an Arabic-speaking region…

  65. 65 Anthony
    September 11, 2008 at 22:08

    @ Kelsie

    Mandarin would be a good one to learn, since the Chinese are taking over the world!!! Hahaha. I’m gonna take Mandarin 101 for fun. It could help out in the future. Knee-How-Ma!!!

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  66. 66 jamily5
    September 11, 2008 at 22:09

    about the flag:
    Well, if I ride public transportation and they display the flag on the side of the bus, does it count????
    Or, am I going to have to get a flag to hang on Fallbrook’s harness?
    Hey, someone better start making signs for me and other guide dog users!!!
    Maybe the chinese????

  67. 67 Kelsie in Houston
    September 11, 2008 at 22:11

    @Jamily5 re flag:
    Well…I suppose. But if you ever run for public office, someone will be sure to dig that up!

  68. September 11, 2008 at 22:11

    Zimbabwean Rivals: Robert Mugabe and Morgan Tsvanganri agree to share power. This may bring peace to the troubled nation of Zimbabwe. In kenya a power sharing agreement was introduced to end the post election violence. Now Zimbabwe. In the short term this may be good but in the long term, a bad precedent is being set.

  69. 69 Kelsie in Houston
    September 11, 2008 at 22:13

    @Nelsoni:
    I don’t know very much at all about the Zimbabwean situation, but it seems that very little latitude for change will exist while Robert Mugabe remains President….but maybe this is a step in the right direction? I wonder when we will hear about the particulars.

  70. 70 Roberto
    September 11, 2008 at 22:14

    RE Ground Zero, Manhatten 2008
    ———————————————————————————————————

    ———- Obama and McCain appear together, side by side at Ground Zero this afternoon for a walk through after the AM memorial service.

    They can be seen talking to each other and posing with workers for photos. No politics………..Interesting and well done boys.

  71. 71 Michael
    September 11, 2008 at 22:15

    @ Kelsie

    I have no particular favored language for US students to learn. The US has need to have people who speak and understand ALL languages throughout the world.

    US foreign policy does not just hinge upon the areas where the pressing problems in the world exist, but in communicating with all countries as we try to to come up with diplomatic solutions that we can all live with.

    Obviously Arabic would be important, but remember there are many forms of Arabic languages that are quite different and come into play in each ethnic area.

    When I was in college during the cold war, students were encouraged to study Russian. Now students are encouraged to study Chinese.

    I recently met one student who couldn’t make up his mind between Italian and Farsi. When I was in school, I didn’t know Farsi even existed . . . the opportunities are starting to show up, but students are still getting through high school and college with barely even a beginner knowledge of another language.

    Students in foreign countries are studying English throughout grammar, secondary school and then often continue in college. I have met many non-native English speakers who have better grasp of the English language than most Americans.

  72. 72 Jens
    September 11, 2008 at 22:17

    well i do speak limited sign language, like the one finger salute……or the hawaiian hang-loose.

    ok bad joke.

    have fun guys.

  73. 73 jamily5
    September 11, 2008 at 22:18

    Jennifer, Lauren said:
    “no one is saying that new immigrants are better and no one’s saying they shouldn’t learn English. Your ancestors weren’t required to learn English-”

    And, Jennifer, you wrote:
    “Only in America would we expect ourselves to learn another language just to accommodate other people instead of them, as immigrants, assimilating into our
    society.”
    Actually, many nonEnglish speaking countries require their citizens to have a knowledge of English, even when it is not their native language.
    Lauren’s post about Quebec is one example. Hey, I think that city in France: Marseilles, is another.
    Abdelilah, , you are in Morocco, since Spain is so close, do the Moroccans have some signs, etc in Spanish? What is the consensus about languages, there?

    And, fire the translator and hire another one. If only Anthony lived near your mom’s work… … but then, again.
    f the translator does not do his/her job correctly, he would be fired.
    And, are you certain that this is where the communication had broken down?
    If so, then, it is not a language problem. The problem is that your employer is not doing his/her job correctly.

  74. 74 Michael
    September 11, 2008 at 22:19

    @ Anthony

    wo hen hao, ni ne 🙂

  75. 75 jamily5
    September 11, 2008 at 22:23

    @Anthony,
    Do you exert the same ferver toward those businesses who hire this cheap labor??? They are American businesses, you know. Or, are they justified, afterall, they are just trying to do good business and make the most profit as possible.

    And, So, you would advocate that immigrants who come to the USA learn English in a set timeframe. Let’s see, it might looke like:
    Okay, you can come to America. You can work. But, we will test your English proficiency and if you can’t pass the test after … … two months, its back you go!
    Well, that would probably not be to Steve’s ancestors liking, either. I have heard of many immigrants who only spoke German or Swedish. They learned some English, but most people helped and accomodated for their English deficiencies. I don’t know where this assumption comes from that all immigrants who came here in the 1700s, 1800s and early 1900s, learned to speak English flawlessly.
    There were accomodations made, they just did not have to be made into laws!

    if you don’t choose to see your bilingual status as a gift, then, that is your own decision.
    That is sad, but your freedom, nonetheless.

  76. September 11, 2008 at 22:23

    This should not be swept under the carpet: President Bush has authorised ground military raids against militants inside Pakistan with out prior approval from Islamabad. When will this wild goose chase end? How would it feel should Pakistan decide to “invade” US for breaching her territoral integrity? What it accused Russia of doing, the same is happening in Pakistan just in other form. What is the world turning into? :!

  77. 77 jamily5
    September 11, 2008 at 22:24

    @Thea,
    Learning is a process! You don’t just wake up one day and announce that you will start speaking English. And, the capacity of learning is different for different people. Now, we will be targetting those people who are unable to learn English fast enough!

    @Steve,
    Jeff does not know if they have taken the initiative, he hasn’t tried to speak with them, remember?
    Jeff said:
    ”If I feel the need to communicate with them, I will take an initiative to learn Spanish.”
    We don’t know if they have felt a need to talk to him or not.
    We just know that Jeff has not felt a need to talk with them.

  78. 78 Lauren
    September 11, 2008 at 22:29

    excellent points Michael!

    If we want people to learn English there needs to be better outreach programs with people who really know how to teach ESL. A little attitude change and community support could go a long way as well!

  79. 79 jamily5
    September 11, 2008 at 22:32

    @Lauren, Great posts at 8:40, 8:54 and 9:20.
    @Kelsie,
    You might want to be careful, your post at 10:02 might be construed as anti-american … … Arabic???? You should have chosen a European language! What were you thinking????
    And, Hey, if Dick Lugar or Evan Bayh was Eliot Spitzer, then, I’d be willing to get into politics!
    But, wait, I am not Paterson, I would ask that some of the important documents be brailled so that I could read them and mark them properly.
    Is brailling like another language?
    Afterall, I would need someone to translate the print docs into braille which would take more work. And, since blind people are a minority, would I be complaining or whining if I demanded accessibility????
    Guess I won’t be hired anytime soon.
    (smile)

  80. 80 Anthony
    September 11, 2008 at 22:38

    @ Jamily

    Yup, I can’t stand businesses that do that, or that out source jobs. It has a horrible trickle effect.

    No, you need to know English to get to be here, with certain restrictions. I feel that would help our country and our illegal immigration problem.

    And thats fine for back then. Back then you could also marry and have sex with 10 year olds, and kill people for “being a witch”, but that was back then, and this is now.

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  81. 81 Kelsie in Houston
    September 11, 2008 at 22:39

    @Jamily5:
    Whoops…you’re right: Walloon would have been a better choice, wouldn’t it? 😉

    I think Braille qualifies as another language…an English/Chinese/Arabic-speaking person fluent in Sign Language and capable of reading and writing Braille….now there’s a force to be reckoned with.

  82. 82 jamily5
    September 11, 2008 at 22:43

    @Nelson,
    It is not that we don’t care — Well, I am speaking for myself only, I suppose.
    It is that I am frustrated at such things and feel helpless to change anything.
    I am outraged at Bush and have a foreboding of what is to come.
    Afterall, since Bush has done this, what can the next president do?
    I mean, (I am not a politician and not a strategist, so anyone gently correct me if my theories are off-base or incorrect).
    Since Bush has done this:
    Well, if McCain does get the pres seat, he would support Bush’s efforts and we will continue to fight with little progress.
    If Obama is pres, he can’t just pull out troops. By this time, there will already be too much fighting and diplomacy is a thing of the past.
    Either way, Bush does not care about popularity, he is out, no matter what.
    He is just leaving a mess for the next pres.
    Anyone want to gently correct my assumptions?
    Again, I am sure that I am overlooking somethings, strategies, etc.
    Please give me a brighter outlook!!!

  83. 83 Anthony
    September 11, 2008 at 22:43

    @ Kelsie RE: Braillle

    I think its funny that there are signs off to the sides, where you wouldn’t even think of looking if you were blind, that have braille. Now, why would a blind person need to know where the electrical room is if its always locked!!! I think it’s kinda funny. The doctors lounge had braille, i guess for those blind Dr.’s, hahaha

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  84. 84 Kelsie in Houston
    September 11, 2008 at 22:45

    @Anthony:
    Yes, absolutely! I see Braille signs located in the most ludicrous places, especially in hospitals: “Here be a place with nothing important in it.”

    You could say, though, those signs are around for the facility’s sight-impaired employees…

  85. 85 Michael
    September 11, 2008 at 22:46

    @ Anthony

    You wrote, “you need to know English to get to be here, with certain restrictions”

    Are you saying that in order to be allowed into the US, a person must be fluent in English?

  86. 86 Kelsie in Houston
    September 11, 2008 at 22:47

    @English:
    What are the entrance requirements in the U.K.? I wonder how their language requirements compare to ours.

  87. 87 Lauren
    September 11, 2008 at 22:47

    Yes Jamily5, Braille is another language and you have no right to demand that your election ballot be printed in another format to accommodate you. Learn to read English!

    And as for the deaf people out there, I refuse to learn sign language to make their life easier. If they want something they should bring an interpreter (or a notebook).

  88. 88 Lauren
    September 11, 2008 at 22:49

    Hmm…

    I think I totally disgusted myself with that last post even though sarcasm was intended 😉

  89. 89 Kelsie in Houston
    September 11, 2008 at 22:49

    @Lauren:
    So would you pay for the interpreter instead of learning sign language? 😀 Just kidding

  90. 90 Anthony
    September 11, 2008 at 22:50

    @ Michael

    You should need to know a certain amount of English in order to get a green card here. That’s what I meant.

    -Anthony, LA, CA

    p.s. Remember they wanted to make the u.s. currency in braille. All that money for a few, thats horrible!!!

  91. 91 Kelsie in Houston
    September 11, 2008 at 22:52

    Does anyone have a thought about the revelations regarding U.S. operations in Pakistan?

    Here is the story:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7611287.stm

  92. 92 Lauren
    September 11, 2008 at 22:52

    @ kelsie

    Nope! Its not my responsibilty to be able to communicate with others- others need to be able to communicate with me!
    : D

  93. 93 Kelsie in Houston
    September 11, 2008 at 22:53

    @Lauren:
    Well in that case, I refuse to learn txt msg!!!

  94. 94 Anthony
    September 11, 2008 at 22:58

    @ Kelsie

    Yeah, how stupid are we to go in there without any authorization?!?!?! What if Russia did bombings on the U.S. Mexican border for whatever reason? That’s crap!!! I can’t wait till trigger happy is out of office!!!

    P.S. OMG, Y nt, U need 2 lern txt msgng!!! TTYL!!! Lol

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  95. September 11, 2008 at 23:00

    @ jamily5

    In Morocco, Spanish and French are the major foreign languages. This has to do with colonialism. The northern and southern parts Morocco were colonized by Spain. The other parts were colonized by France. But French remains more predominant than Spanish. It is still used in the administrations. It is also the first foreign language taught in Moroccan school. Spanish, Italian and English are taught in secondary schools (at the age of 15).

  96. 96 Michael
    September 11, 2008 at 23:02

    @ Anthony

    ok . . . foreigners seeking green cards should know a certain amount of English

    that sounds reasonable on the face of it . . .

    But then there are the big corporations that want to employ a specialists from other country who speak little English . . . the corporation sponsors the person for the green card . . . and the government approves it . . . all legal

    If the US makes the restrictions too difficult, then other countries respond in kind. Often, when I was traveling abroad, I discovered that the rules in other countries varied depending upon the person;s citizenship. For example, my VISA into China cost 3 times as much as my Spanish friend’s VISA into China because it would cost more for a Chinese person to get into the US than it would to get into Spain.

    perhaps foreigners seeking citizenship should be required to know a certain amount of English

  97. 97 Kelsie in Houston
    September 11, 2008 at 23:02

    @Anthony:
    As if Asif Zardari’s position wasn’t already weak enough…

  98. 98 Anthony
    September 11, 2008 at 23:04

    @ Kelsie

    I hate to say this, but Pakistan has a 100% right to attack our troops if we go in there like that. It makes me sad that our troops will die because the White House feels they can do whatever they want to do 😦

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  99. 99 Kelsie in Houston
    September 11, 2008 at 23:06

    @Anthony:
    Technically, I think you’re probably right: Pakistan has national sovereignty the same as any other nation; I doubt we would tolerate Canada running military operations in Montana without authorization…

  100. 100 jamily5
    September 11, 2008 at 23:08

    @Anthony
    “Yup, I can’t stand businesses that do that, or that out source jobs. It has a horrible trickle effect.”
    Do you boycott them?
    Do you write letters condemning their practices?
    Do you let other people know who “is” hiring illegals?
    It seems that you are more intent on focussing on the illegal immigrants than going after businesses.
    But, they are a more acceptable target and have less defenses and… … no legal representation and no money and yeah, they are American, after all.

    acommodations should be made.

  101. 101 Michael
    September 11, 2008 at 23:08

    @ Anthony

    you wrote “p.s. Remember they wanted to make the u.s. currency in braille. All that money for a few, thats horrible!!!”

    Take a close look/feel of the newest US currency . . . the new security features also included some noticeable textures that help respond to the needs of the blind.

    Most foreign currencies have different sizes for denominations of their currencies.

    This is to help protect the blind from being cheated by unscrupulous people. I have no problem spending some public money to protect the unfortunate from being cheated.

  102. 102 Anthony
    September 11, 2008 at 23:16

    @ Jamily

    Yup, I boycott a lot of companies. Thats why I try to buy from mom and pop stores when I can. Write letters, no, but I do tell friends and blog and get people I know to do the same. I’m condeming our government for not taking better actions, the businesses, along with the illegals. Wow, you’re so quick to assume 🙂

    -Anthony, LA, CA

    P.S. @ Michael

    I didn’t know that about our new currency!!! thats pretty cool. I’m not against it if they are changing the currency anyways 🙂

  103. 103 Kelsie in Houston
    September 11, 2008 at 23:21

    @currency:
    While it probably won’t make a difference to a blind person, I do hope we get a colored–or at least redesigned–$1 bill eventually.

  104. 104 jamily5
    September 11, 2008 at 23:21

    @Anthony
    Steve wrote:
    “Why are the new immigrants (especially illegals) so much better than they can’t be expected to do what everyone else did? Why are they better than my ancestors?”
    You wrote:
    My mom’s friend came here from Libya, after all her family was killed. She learned English in a few months. I have an Armenian friend who came here and
    learned English in 3 months, and mostly from the Simpsons and Sesame Street.
    So, I wrote:
    I have heard of many immigrants who only spoke German or Swedish. They learned some English, but most people helped and accomodated for their English deficiencies. I don’t know where this assumption comes from that all immigrants who came here in the 1700s, 1800s and early 1900s, learned to speak English flawlessly.
    — In fact, in Oldenburgh, a small town near where I live, the street names are still in German. Yes, this is quite true. And, what about in Louisiana? These French signs did not pop up over night. So, we are not making special acommodations that have not been made for decades.
    — (I continued)
    There were accomodations made, they just did not have to be made into laws!
    you wrote
    in response to me:
    “And thats fine for back then. Back then you could also marry and have sex with 10 year olds, and kill people for “being a witch”, but that was back then,
    and this is now.”
    You also wrote:
    “No, you need to know English to get to be here, with certain restrictions. I feel that would help our country and our illegal immigration problem.”
    — With this line of logic, Steve’s ancestors and your mother’s friend and your friend would not have been able to come here.
    So, as long as you don’t have another friend’s relative in Libya, I guess your logic will serve you well.

    But, we can’t have it both ways.
    Steve wants us to do as we have always done in the past.
    And, you want to say: “that was then and this is now,”
    Yet, you are advocating the same thing.

  105. 105 Anthony
    September 11, 2008 at 23:31

    @ Jamily

    You’re right. That was then, and this is now. Those people came a long time ago. Now it’s a different world. I have some buddies from Mexico who recently came here and don’t know English, and I tell them to their faces they should learn English or get outta here. If I were to migrate to another country, I guarantee I would know that language pretty well in a few months, if I hadn’t learned it before I went there.

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  106. 106 steve
    September 11, 2008 at 23:33

    @jamily

    The problem is, many of the illegals that come here don’t bother to learn english, because they have no plans on really staying. They come for better job opportunities, free healthcare, but have no desire to become americans. So they are basically using America for their own personal benefit, and most don’t pay any income taxes because they are paid under the table, and only so much of healthcare is provided by salestax or real estate tax they pay indirectly through rent.

    If they do plan on staying, but not living amongst other groups, not learning the language, will create banlieu (sp?) situations like they have in France, where it’s like a foreign country inside of the country, or to a degree like Canada, where Quebec is considered a nation within a nation…

    At least in Quebec, they aren’t PC about english. Every province but Quebec is bilingqual, qhile Quebec is French only. You have to speak french to get most jobs, they even have rules about advertisements. A bare I go to got threatened with closure for having guinness signs up in english, of all things!

  107. 107 jamily5
    September 11, 2008 at 23:41

    @Anthony,
    I didn’t have to ask to find out how much you despise illegals. You have made it clear on BBC several times.
    But, I have to inquire to find out your stance on businesses.
    My point is that you have spoken out more against illegal immigrants than you have about businesses that hire them.
    That is no assumption.

  108. 108 jamily5
    September 11, 2008 at 23:47

    @Anthony
    “I think its funny that there are signs off to the sides, where you wouldn’t even think of looking if you were blind, that have braille. Now, why would a
    blind person need to know where the electrical room is if its always locked!!! I think it’s kinda funny. The doctors lounge had braille, i guess for those
    blind Dr.’s, hahaha.”
    What? Blind people don’t know how to use keys to unlock a door or should they just not be allowed in the electrical room, anyway.
    Yes, the problem is that those braille signs are in different places. Some are to the side, some are on the door and we have to feel around to find them. It does get kind of tricky when looking for the correct restroom.
    And, not only Doctors go into the doctor’s lounge. So, those signs are a necessity there.
    Unless you think that there are no blind hospital staff… …
    BTW., I do know a blind psychiatrist and blind social workers and blind psychologists are also allowed in the doctor’s lounge, just to name a few.
    Maybe you just did not think this through.
    Besides, sometimes people don’t give good directions to a blind person who is looking for a certain room.
    “It is down the hall, that way and when you find the red door, turn left and turn right after the elevator door and then, you will see the sign, you can’t miss it.”

  109. 109 Anthony
    September 11, 2008 at 23:48

    @ Jamily Cinco

    Yes, you’re right. But even without that, there are people, not businesses, that hire them. And some will just rummage through trash for recyclables, or do illegal things for cash. If NO BUSINESS used them, they would still come, and be bad for our country.

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  110. 110 jamily5
    September 11, 2008 at 23:51

    @Lauren,
    Thank god for the talking voting machines! But, most people don’t know about them. Before these came into effect, we would have to have a representative from each party — at least the main two — come into the voting booth with us and read our choices and help us mark them.
    (smile at your sarcasm)
    @Kelsie,
    when I have to hire a reader to read the printed docs, it comes out of my check and no one else’s. Otherwise, businesses would have another reason not to hire blind people.(smile)
    Universities do get readers for blind people and there are some Government agencies who pay them hourly minimum wage to read. But, when you are working, then, you are on your own. So, these are expenses that one must consider when getting a job.
    This is one of the clear benefits of technology: files on the computer and not handwritten.

  111. 111 Anthony
    September 11, 2008 at 23:53

    @ Jamily

    I guarantee if we put a blind person on our medical staff, they would be taken around first and know where things are without the Braille. Second, why would a blind person go into a dangerous electrical room. Maybe you should think first. Where is al this anger coming from anyways??? Geez man. Life is life.

    -Anthony, LA, CA

    P.S. I would never get a psych, let alone a BLIND one, haha!!!

  112. 112 Kelsie in Houston
    September 11, 2008 at 23:53

    @Jamily5:
    What kind of software do you use? Something like IBM ViaVoice?

    …and I’m sorry if we offended you re: the Braille signs 😦

  113. 113 Pangolin- California
    September 11, 2008 at 23:55

    @ Climate News- Thawing Permafrost Holds Vast Carbon Pool

    It looks like there’s enough greenhouse gases in the permafrost to totally overwhem the current atmospheric greenhouse gases. If it warms just a little and that stuff thaws it doesn’t matter if we quit burning coal or not. We’re done.

  114. 114 jamily5
    September 11, 2008 at 23:59

    @Anthony,
    Not everyone supported that kind of logic: to braille money. It was faulty to begin with.
    1. there is way too much currency circulating to waste money on such a thing and expect that it will make much of a difference, unless they were going to alter the dollar anyway. But, we should not expect instant accessibility.
    2. We do have devices such as a talking money identifier, although it does cost about $75.
    3. bills get handled lots and I have even washed a few. Braille is not resistent to heat and/or constant crumpling.
    I know a guy who tears his money to identify it. But, still someone must tell him which bills that he has and he still must rely on sighted assistance when he gets new money.
    I don’t advocate for this way of identifying money and fold mine certain ways.
    But, there, again, when I get new money, I must rely on sighted assistance, at first.

    Michael’s points are great. Yes, if we can tactally identify the money, then it is a good thing. I have had a couple of tellers “mistakenly” give me the wrong amount of money. Strangely, it was always in their favor.(smile)
    I am just saying that brailling it would not work.
    Hey wait, Michael, you mean that other countries (maybe even third world countries) have made their money accessible and they didn’t need legislation to prompt them to do so??????
    Imran or Ahmed , if you are online, maybe you can share about Pakistani money: Rupies???
    Abdi, Nelson, Akbar, Bob in Queensland, Will, Selina, uk residents, Lubna, Zainab, … … what does your money feel like?
    OK, that just sounds too strange! (smile)
    I feel a strong urge to confess that I have no sexual fettishes with money!

  115. September 12, 2008 at 00:06

    @ U.S. in Pakistan blowing up things

    What I think has happened is that originally Musharaff was given billions of dollars to “get” Osama. He manipulated and sweet talked Bush for years.

    Meanwhile the U.S. has been making huge strides with their “drone technology.” And Bush wants to claim that he has killed Osama. Now that Musharaff is on the sidelines and Asif Ali Zardari and the top Pakistani generals are not willing to be seen as puppets of the U.S., the U.S. military has decided to do what they want to do. It is reprehensible.

    “The situation in the tribal areas is not tolerable,” said a senior American official who, like others interviewed for this article, spoke on condition of anonymity because of the delicate nature of the missions. “We have to be more assertive. Orders have been issued.”

    How in the world can we Americans decide that the “situation in the tribal areas is not tolerable?”

  116. 116 Kelsie in Houston
    September 12, 2008 at 00:10

    @Portlandmike:
    “How in the world can we Americans decide that the “situation in the tribal areas is not tolerable?”

    The situation–particularly the political situation–across the whole of Pakistan may trend toward “not tolerable” after this revelation. I don’t see how we can claim to uphold the territorial sovereignty of Georgia while almost simultaneously violating the territorial sovereignty of Pakistan.

  117. September 12, 2008 at 00:26

    @ U.S. in Pakistan

    Kelsie in Houston~ Trust me, Bush wants Osama now… finally. And just like any (religious) fanatic, he believes that he is justified in what ever he does.

    I believe that we could have chased Osama right into Pakistan after Tora Bora… and the whole world would have supported us. But… Bush and Co decided that Saddam was “intolerable.” “Really, really intolerable.” And with lies and bluster President Bush convinced our few allys. Now that that the War in Iraq has turned into a disaster, he is thinking about his “legacy.” If he gets Osama, then McCain will be elected.

  118. 118 Kelsie in Houston
    September 12, 2008 at 00:28

    @Portlandmike:
    “If he gets Osama, then McCain will be elected.”

    I’ve wondered several times if the administration would pull the Osama rabbit from their hat at the critical moment–do you think, though, that the Republican administration has become so unpopular with the electorate that even a capture of bin Laden would be too little too late?

  119. 119 jamily5
    September 12, 2008 at 00:28

    @Anthony,
    “I guarantee if we put a blind person on our medical staff, they would be taken around first and know where things are without the Braille.”
    How many blind people do you know, Anthony.
    Many times blind people need the braille because it does take them a bit of time to memorize a place. and, what if they get lost??? Even sighted people do this and must look at the signs.
    And, what about interns who have their internships at a hospital.
    There have been blind drug reps.
    And, also there have been blind candy stripers.
    Who will you hire to “take all of these blind people around so that they can learn the building so they don’t need the braille.” It would be better to just spend the money on the braille.(smile)
    With this logic, then, there should not be room markings at all. Afterall, sighted people should just memorize the layout of a building and not need printed signs, either.
    If blind people should memorize a building, why not sighted people. We do rely on braille signs and other tactile landmarks.

    “Second, why would
    a blind person go into a dangerous electrical room.
    Maybe you should think first. Where is al this anger coming from anyways???”

    Who knows why a blind person would need to go into the electrical room. Even if it is a point of reference for them, I don’t understand your problem with braille on the door.
    And, what other rooms do you think blind people shouldn’t enter, so we should not need to braille a sign for?
    [“if you find a room that has no sign on it, then, you should not try to enter it, and don’t ask any questions, you don’t need to know what it is anyway, it is off limits.”]
    Not anger, just trying to get you to realize that your logic is faulty and maybe you need to examine things before you write them.
    Ok, I will stipulate that I should learn from Lubna and try to assert my point strongly without being labeled as “angry.”
    Point taken!

  120. 120 jamily5
    September 12, 2008 at 00:29

    @Chelsie,
    No, you did not offend me about the signs… .I was not offended at all.
    Actually, I did **agree** with some of Anthony’s post about the location of the signs.
    I just thought that he was being quite short sided to think that blind people would not need to know where the doctor’s lounge was and other rooms, as if they should be relegated to the patient quarters.
    And, since a room **obviously** would never be entered by a blind person, they should not know where it is.
    That just sounds faulty to me.

    I use Jaws and have also used Window-eyes. They are basically the same, but do have their individual benefits. Actually they are the leading two screen readers. They read what is on the screen. They don’t read graphics, but text. And, I use keyboard shortcuts instead of the mouse. Some websites are not accessible. The BBC is actually quite accessible and moreso than many American sites.
    You can use the tab key to go from link to link.
    You can use the alt key to pull down the menus at the top of your screen.
    The next time that you want to close a program, push the alt key and the f4 key.
    The next time that you want to open a file or a website, press the control key and the o.
    That is how I use my computer with voice output.
    I have memorized the keyboard, and all of the typing teachers would be proud. If you are running Windows xp (I don’t know about vista) you can press the windows key and U. This program is called “narrator.”
    The voice is highly synthesized and the current screenreader voices are much better. But, it kind of gives you an idea of what the voice sounds like.

  121. 121 jamily5
    September 12, 2008 at 00:31

    @Anthony,
    Actually some people like a blind psych because they feel less intimidated.
    They can relax and feel more comfortable confiding in them.

  122. 122 Kelsie in Houston
    September 12, 2008 at 00:37

    @Jamily:
    I have noticed the accessibility features on the BBC’s pages, but never used them–most of the keys aren’t compatible with the new Mac OS version.

  123. 123 Dennis @ OCC
    September 12, 2008 at 00:39

    @ Kelsie:

    Sorry for being out…Went got groceries….

    Dennis

  124. 124 jamily5
    September 12, 2008 at 00:40

    @Anthony,
    “If NO BUSINESS used them, they would still come, and be bad for our country.”
    But, would we have this big of a problem?
    Maybe they would come, I don’t know, but without businesses supporting the illegal move, they would be less likely to survive and stay.

  125. 125 Kelsie in Houston
    September 12, 2008 at 00:44

    @Dennis:
    Is fine…we’re looking at Braille, U.S. operations in Pakistan, and English as an official language.

  126. September 12, 2008 at 00:58

    Kelsie~

    If Bush can claim he got bin Laden it would be headlines here for weeks. This news wouldn’t help the Democrats. Not that many dems, myself included, wouldnt rejoice.

  127. 127 Kelsie in Houston
    September 12, 2008 at 01:01

    @Portlandmike:
    You may look prophetic here in a month or so…

  128. 128 jamily5
    September 12, 2008 at 01:02

    @Steve,
    I understand your frustration with illegal immigrants who do not pay taxes etc.
    Wouldn’t it be more advantageous to go after the businesses, then?

    I have told you about Oldenburg, Indiana.
    They had a very high concentration of German immigrants and even the streets are still in German. No one ever had a problem with the immigrants or the streets.
    And, what about Louisiana, where there are also many French speaking people and some signs in French?
    I don’t hear many complaints from Louisiana citizens, although I will admit that they have larger issues to focus on, these days.
    (smile)

  129. 129 steve
    September 12, 2008 at 01:28

    @ Jamily

    Those situations are more of a trying to hold onto some quaint/cultural. I think 99% of cajuns speak English. I work with a cajun, his nickname for himself is “the cajun”. Also, let’s not forget that the French were here just as long as we’ve been here. Yes, in downtown New Orleans, you’ll see some French signs. Try to speak french on Bourbon Street and you’ll get funny looks. There are some German communities, in PA (I speak to the Amish in German whenever I’m there), Indiana. Ohio, NY, Texas, etc.. They all speak English as well.

    If a large influx of Germans came to the US today, you can bet they would learn english if they didn’t already know it. That’s different than completely segregating one’s self in a german speaking community, not really mixing in, paying taxes, or intending on staying. Many illegal immigrants have no plans on staying. They’re just here to send money back to their families. Many do want to stay as well. The thing is, they are not here legally.

    I’ve always wanted to live in Europe, but should I go illegally and not follow the rules?

  130. 130 Jennifer
    September 12, 2008 at 01:52

    @jamily5

    Thank you for speaking to me for Lauren. You know, if she wanted, she could type to me herself. 🙂

    There is a difference between someone being blind and having a disability and someone who chooses to isolate themselves from the community by not learning to speak English.

    The problem with the translator is that she likes to interject her own opinions to the clients. She likes to discern what’s “important” and what’s not. It creates a breakdown of information from my mom to her client. The translator does not have medical knowledge and is basing it on her own opinions and biases. There is not a huge amount of the Hispanic population here that can fluently speak both English and Spanish so it’s not as easy as firing her and hiring another. Without a translator, the mother would receive no prenatal care at all for her unborn baby because she is not here legally and is otherwise afraid to see a doctor.

    I do have a problem with people coming here illegally (not just Hispanic people). It says that because they don’t go through the appropriate channels to come here they are not invested in staying and being productive in our society. Also, it sets them up to be isolated.

    If I went to another country I would not expect other people to learn to speak English just for me. I wouldn’t want to depend on other people for everything. There is no way I could be productive if I could not at least communicate my needs, procure a good job, go back to college, see a doctor, etc. I would be stunted and scared that I could not carry on a conversation with other people and I would be doing everything possible to learn the language.

  131. 131 Bob in Queensland
    September 12, 2008 at 01:55

    Good morning all, and can I just say how pleased I am to have discovered “America Have Your Say” this morning! Seriously, I’ve done a rough count and something like 98% of posts so far are about American domestic issues, notably whether English should be made the official language.

    The one attempt to discuss Zimbabwe was met with a response along the lines of “I don’t know much about Zimbabwe.”

    Now, I have a serious reason for bringing this up. In yesterday’s talking points somebody asked if it was appropriate for “foreigners” to express an opinion on American politics, the implication being that it wasn’t. The trouble is that America is so prominent in the world that people almost everywhere are discussing US issues. For better or for worse we all hear far more about American politics than you hear about the rest of the world. Add to this the fact that the choice of the American president often has a direct effect on people around the world and it’s inevitable that people will express their opinions. To feign horror when a damn fer-in-er actually says something at the MTV awards is a somewhat disingenuous.

    With power comes responsibility–and the worldwide glare of publicity.

  132. 132 Kelsie in Houston
    September 12, 2008 at 01:59

    @Bob:
    I’m all for discussing Zimbabwe, if people drop in who know more about it than I do. And no one knows the particulars of the deal agreed to by Mr Mugabe and Mr Tsvangirai as of yet…

  133. 133 graceunderfire
    September 12, 2008 at 01:59

    @ Steve
    Speaking as one of the progeny of German immigrants from the middle of the nineteenth century and a current resident of a community with a substantial numbers of Hispanic immigrants (a nice family next door in fact!), they’re a lot less obnoxious than the greedy, lazy, exploitative, right-wing, hypocrites that hire them.
    guf

  134. 134 Kelsie in Houston
    September 12, 2008 at 02:00

    @Zimbabwe:
    A little more is known (or speculated)….

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7611459.stm

  135. 135 steve
    September 12, 2008 at 02:02

    http://www.nydailynews.com/gossip/2008/09/09/2008-09-09_howard_stern_in_virgin_territory.html

    I’m curious, with this story, if they did this outside of Nevada, both parties would be guilty of a crime, right?

  136. September 12, 2008 at 02:18

    Kelsie in Houston~

    We have had drones flying over the tribal areas for years. Many of these areas are living a feudal life style, and there has never been a central government.

    But the Taliban has been hiding back in there and recruiting their youth too. I seriously doubt that all of these communities are happy to have these terrorists in their midst. “Tribal leaders in the Salarzai area of Bajur have denounced the Taliban. Recently, armed tribal members torched and destroyed several suspected militant houses and hide-outs.”

    Bob Woodward has been on television talking about a new secret weapon. He said on 60 Minutes, “”This is very sensitive and very top secret, but there are secret operational capabilities that have been developed by the military to locate, target and kill leaders of al-Qaida in Iraq, insurgent leaders, renegade militia leaders. That is one of the true breakthroughs,” Woodward told Pelley.”

    Now it is worldwide news that Bush okayed American troops to charge into Pakistan after terrorists. Perhaps the U.S. and Pakistan government have made a secret agreement to make it sound like, “Bush is out of control. We can’t stop him. You al Qaeda guys better get out of town!”

  137. 137 Kelsie in Houston
    September 12, 2008 at 02:25

    @Portlandmike:
    “Bush is out of control. We can’t stop him. You al Qaeda guys better get out of town!”
    Hadn’t thought of that….Zardari needs something to help him cement his hold on power; unifying the populace against the U.S. could advance that purpose.

  138. 138 Dennis @ OCC
    September 12, 2008 at 02:31

    that is a brief summary of the programme.

    dennis

  139. 139 Shirley
    September 12, 2008 at 02:31

    Kelsie, are you still around? Just wondering if you have heard of KPFT?

  140. 140 Kelsie in Houston
    September 12, 2008 at 02:33

    Shirley:
    Yes, I’m here until 12.00am CDT. I’m not familiar with KPFT?

  141. September 12, 2008 at 02:33

    Kelsie in Houston~

    My point is that it is Zardari is trying to frighten the Taliban in Pakistan. He’s faking that he can’t control Bush and the coaliton. He is perhaps saying that America now has a “secret weapon,” and they are going to use it. I can’t stop them.

    In other words, Pakistan wants this fundamentalist religious cult (of members who will blow themselves up at someone else’s command), out of their country. They have no where to go.

  142. 142 Kelsie in Houston
    September 12, 2008 at 02:36

    @Shirley:
    OH, the radio station–yes, I listen to them periodically…

    @Portlandmike:
    Ok, that makes sense, although it may make the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan more unstable.

  143. 143 Tom D Ford
    September 12, 2008 at 02:45

    @ portlandmike

    “Bob Woodward has been on television talking about a new secret weapon. He said on 60 Minutes, “”This is very sensitive and very top secret, but there are secret operational capabilities that have been developed by the military to locate, target and kill leaders of al-Qaida in Iraq, insurgent leaders, renegade militia leaders. That is one of the true breakthroughs,” Woodward told Pelley.””

    Henh, my first thought is that the “secret weapon” is just labeling everyone, even civilians, killed as one of that list of “leaders of al-Qaida in Iraq, insurgent leaders, renegade militia leaders.” That way no civilians are ever killed and every death is a great success for Bush.

    Otherwise it just looks like the military has hired Harry Potter to use his magic wand!

  144. 144 Shirley
    September 12, 2008 at 03:20

    Language
    81 Kelsie in Houston September 11, 2008 at 10:39 pm
    I think Braille qualifies as another language…an English/Chinese/Arabic-speaking person fluent in Sign Language and capable of reading and writing Braille. Now there’s a force to be reckoned with.

    Kelsie, that is straight up international! I like. I would replace Arabic with French, though. Many African nations speak French. It is a popular language throughout Europe, especially in Switzerland and Netherland. It is also widely spoke in the Arabic world and in northern Africa.

  145. 145 Kelsie in Houston
    September 12, 2008 at 03:22

    @Shirley:
    Maybe we could just add French–it’s close enough to English that a proficient speaker could pick it up fluently in a short while…you’re right about the African nations, though, and it would make one competent on almost every continent in the world (you’d probably need Portuguese for South America, but French is also present there as well).

  146. 146 Shirley
    September 12, 2008 at 03:28

    Pakistan Under Attack
    It’s curious. We had a great deal of posturing and verbal buildup before the attacks on Afghanistan and Iraq. But our assault on Pakistan seems to be a more quiet affair. Why might that be?

  147. 147 Kelsie in Houston
    September 12, 2008 at 03:36

    @Shirley:
    It’s Shock&Awe 2.0: Hide-n-Seek.

  148. 148 Bob in Queensland
    September 12, 2008 at 03:37

    Forget bias for a moment…the real problem at the BBC is budget cuts!

    THIS LINK details a week of technical snafus at the BBC, caused mainly by a scheme to eliminate technicians and have journalists do everything on a multimedia computer. Great when it’s working but who looks after things when it–inevitably–goes wrong.

    Yeah, I admit it. I come from the technical side of things and decided to take early retirement in part because I could see the way the wind was blowing. However, the blackly humorous quote in technical areas is that “if you can see pictures and hear some sort of sound, the accountants will believe there is still room for cuts”.

  149. 149 Kelsie in Houston
    September 12, 2008 at 03:43

    @Bob:
    Wow, that’s surprising. Not living in the U.K., all I get are the website and the online radio feeds–most of this sounds humorous, but only because it’s not me…some days you’re the windshield, some days you’re the bug…

  150. 150 Bob in Queensland
    September 12, 2008 at 03:54

    Here in Australia the bugs are winning….

  151. September 12, 2008 at 03:56

    What about Palin speaking about war with Russia?

    Don’t any of you read the news! 😛 😉

    http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Vote2008/story?id=5778018&page=1

    She thinks that Russia started the Georgian incident – I bet her supporters are real proud of her.

  152. 153 Bob in Queensland
    September 12, 2008 at 03:58

    @ Will

    Clearly she’s the expert. After all she lives just across the Bering Strait from Russia!

  153. 154 Tom D Ford
    September 12, 2008 at 04:00

    @Kelsie in Houston September 12, 2008 at 3:36 am

    “@Shirley:

    It’s Shock&Awe 2.0: Hide-n-Seek.”

    Yow! I choked on that! perfect.

  154. September 12, 2008 at 04:01

    Aye, Bob –

    Cindy McCain said as much, she would be perfect as CiC because she is CiC of the Alaskan National Guard and can see Russia – it’s so close!

    I only hope Russia doesn’t invade through Canada!

  155. 156 Kelsie in Houston
    September 12, 2008 at 04:03

    @Petraeus:
    I can hear the chants from stage-right: “General Betray-Us!”

  156. 157 Tom D Ford
    September 12, 2008 at 04:09

    @ Bob in Queensland

    Those with “received knowledge” have no need to learn.

    Palin is just like Bush, only with lipstick, she’ll do what she’s been told by people like Cheney/McCainy and she’ll look pretty doing it.

  157. 158 Bob in Queensland
    September 12, 2008 at 04:10

    A thought on the Palin interview:

    Did anyone else her the World Service news report on the interview? The got in three people to give their impressions: a McCain supporter, an Obama supporter and somebody undecided.

    The McCain supporter was convinced the interview showed her as decisive and ready for the job. The Obama supporter thought it showed her as a lightweight with dangerous ideas. The undecided voter was, well, undecided.

    Does anyone ever listen beyond their own preconceptions any more?

  158. 159 Bob in Queensland
    September 12, 2008 at 04:11

    @ Tom D Ford

    Considering the recent controversy, are you calling Bush a pig?

    We should be told!

  159. 160 jamily5
    September 12, 2008 at 04:13

    @Steve,
    you do make some valid points.
    And, I am not saying that I support illegal immigrants.
    I am saywtime when people came here who did not speak English and held on to their cultural values and language and it was not a problem for those who only spoke English.

    @Jennifer,
    I know interpreters who are out of work, so I find it hard to believe that there is a sizeable illegal immigrant population, yet a shortage of interpreters.
    If your mom knows enough Spanish to be sure that the interpreter is putting her own comments in and leaving out others, then, maybe she could do her own speaking.
    Afterall, it seems that she understands the interpreter fairly well.
    Yet, I realize that she won’t get paid anymore for doing so and might not want to speak a language other than English.

  160. 161 jamily5
    September 12, 2008 at 04:23

    Do you think that
    • Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh is prepared to sign a deal for ‘peaceful nuclear cooperation’ with the United States later this month.
    is because he wants to distance himself from Pakistan idiology etc, as much as possible?
    How will this effect the surge into Pakistan’s NWPF?

  161. 162 Kelsie in Houston
    September 12, 2008 at 04:27

    @Jamily5:
    No idea on Singh’s motives–his government has lost a great deal of support over the deal; vis-á-vis Pakistan: what are Asif Ali Zardari’s views on India? Both nations have nuclear weapons (probably pointed at each other)…is there anyone around from India or Pakistan who has a thought on how relations between the two will be affected by India’s nuclear deal with the U.S.?

  162. 163 Tom D Ford
    September 12, 2008 at 04:30

    @ Bob in Queensland September 12, 2008 at 4:11 am

    “@ Tom D Ford

    Considering the recent controversy, are you calling Bush a pig?

    We should be told!”

    Goshers, she called herself a Pitbull dog with lipstick, I couldn’t disrespect her worse if I tried.

    And no, Bush is not a pig, I helped raise pigs while growing up and they’re very intelligent animals, Bush could learn a lot from pigs. But not the other way around!

  163. 164 Kelsie in Houston
    September 12, 2008 at 04:31

    @Tom:
    “And no, Bush is not a pig, I helped raise pigs while growing up and they’re very intelligent animals”
    HA!

  164. 165 jamily5
    September 12, 2008 at 04:35

    Steve,
    interesting article.
    I was caught by this part:
    Dylan says the winner won’t necessarily be the highest bidder. “I want someone with chemistry. We’ll take bids until I find a suitor I’m happy with.”
    A suiter????
    It sounds like a genius way to find a boyfriend and one that has a substantial bank account.

  165. 166 Kelsie in Houston
    September 12, 2008 at 05:11

    @all:
    I’m off for an evening of sleep and satellite radar images 😉 Bob in Queensland will be taking over.

  166. 167 Jessica in NYC
    September 12, 2008 at 05:13

    @ Kelsie

    What a mess!

  167. 168 Vijay Srao in Chattarnagar Punjab India
    September 12, 2008 at 05:18

    @ Jens
    The moderators won’t allow me to post any personal details on the blog for my own safety,maybe they know something about you that I don’t.
    Any way what is your surname Jens?

    Did the BBC Bus make any unscheduled stops in Nevada,I understand prostitution is legal outside Las Vegas.There was a person in the UK I knew who would save up for a couple of years and then hire a minibus with his friends and tour sex establishments in the USA,how sad.

  168. 169 Kelsie in Houston
    September 12, 2008 at 05:21

    @Jessica:
    A morsel of good news, though: Ike seems to be turning ever so slightly northward; if that continues, we might dodge the bullet yet…

  169. 170 Bob in Queensland
    September 12, 2008 at 05:34

    @ Vijay

    We moderators aren’t overly worried about Jens–but there ARE unscrupulous folks out there who use software to search the web picking up address details from the unwary. At best, posting your address often leads to you getting extra junk mail; at worst you’re open to identity theft.

    For the same reason Jens may choose not to post a last name.

  170. 171 Roberto
    September 12, 2008 at 05:36

    RE the Charlie Gibson interview of Sarah Palin:
    ———————————————————————————————————–

    ———- Interesting. Only thing Gibson was missing was the powdered wig.

    He pinned her down on the “Bush Doctrine” which I had never heard of. Looked it up on wiki, and Gibson apparently amended it as “summed up in the National Security Strategy released in 2002.” Like most doctrines and policy, the language deliberately vague and open ended, but I saw no specific right of the US to invade another country to prevent attacks though there is a provision there which could house such a policy I guess.

    It’s pretty obvious in shifting to the national stage that Palin is shifting some environmental positions, but overall she is very dynamic and quick on her feet as Gibson adopted a very unGibson superior persona that I have never seen in him before, almost dismissive.

    I can see the pitbull metaphor in her as at one point it looked like she was ready to slip the lease she was on and have at him. Much more petite than I had imagined, but incredible will and presence.

    Meanwhile, back at the ranch Obama appeared with McCain at ground zero today, and both looked like the morgue had prepped them for visitation such was the state of their make up. Someone needs to let these make folks know that they ain’t doin’ the job anymore.

    Bold move for the stubby older McCain to appear right next to the tall Obama, but he has confidence. One thing for sure, we won’t have to worry about him aging overnight in office as is the myth. Obama already looks 10 yrs older than when he started.

  171. 172 Vijay Srao in Chattarnagar Punjab India
    September 12, 2008 at 05:38

    @Bob In Queensland
    Re:Budjet BBC cuts
    The BBC has spread themselves to thin, they are trying to partcipate in every media sector,they should concentrate on a few platforms .

  172. 173 Vijay Srao in Chattarnagar Punjab India
    September 12, 2008 at 05:52

    @Bob
    Junk mail !ID theft! I never receive junk mail(companies don’t bother sending it to villages,only city dwellers have that privilege )ID theft ,again a village address means that one can not take advantage of 0% interest offers ,or other banking ,insurance and pension opportunities.

  173. September 12, 2008 at 06:19

    @ Roberto

    This is the closest I could find to the “Bush Doctrine”

    from the US National Security Strategy – September 2002 – p. 6

    “We will disrupt and destroy terrorist organizations by:”

    “defending the United States, the American people, and our interests at home and abroad by identifying and destroying the threat before it reaches our borders. While the United States will constantly strive to enlist the support of the international community, we will not hesitate to act alone, if necessary, to exercise our right of self-defense by acting preemptively against such terrorists, to prevent them from doing harm against our people and our country”

    Click to access nss.pdf

  174. 175 Michael
    September 12, 2008 at 06:22

    @ Roberto

    This is the closest I could find to the “Bush Doctrine”.

    from the US National Security Strategy – September 2002 – p. 6

    “We will disrupt and destroy terrorist organizations by:”

    “defending the United States, the American people, and our interests at home and abroad by identifying and destroying the threat before it reaches our borders. While the United States will constantly strive to enlist the support of the international community, we will not hesitate to act alone, if necessary, to exercise our right of self-defense by acting preemptively against such terrorists, to prevent them from doing harm against our people and our country”

  175. 176 Tom D Ford
    September 12, 2008 at 06:36

    If I understand correctly it is an insult in the Arabian countries to call anyone a dog or to compare anyone to a dog. So I have to wonder what they think of Palin calling herself “a dog with lipstick”.

    And I also have to wonder what kind of husband would allow his wife to disrespect herself by calling herself “a dog with lipstick”. What is Mr. Palin like? Does he see his wife as “a dog with lipstick”?

    Odd, very strange indeed.

  176. 177 Tom D Ford
    September 12, 2008 at 06:38

    Lipstick on a dog. Is that doggy “style”?

  177. 178 Michael
    September 12, 2008 at 06:43

    more of the “Bush Doctrine” from the US National Security Strategy – September 2002 – p. 15

    “For centuries, international law recognized that nations need not suffer an attack before they can lawfully take action to defend themselves against forces that present an imminent danger of attack. Legal scholars and international jurists often conditioned the legitimacy of preemption on the existence of an imminent threat – most often a visible mobilization of armies, navies, and air forces preparing to attack.”

    “We must adapt the concept of imminent threat tot he capabilities and objectives of today’s adversaries. Rogue states and terrorists do not seek to attack using conventional means.”

    “The United States has long maintained the option of preemptive actions to counter a sufficient threat to our national security. The greater the threat, the greater the risk of inaction – and the more compelling the case for taking anticipatory action to defend ourselves, even if uncertainty remains as to the time and place of the enemy’s attack. To forestall or prevent such hostile acts by our adversaries, the United Sates will, if necessary, act preemptively.”

  178. 179 Roberto
    September 12, 2008 at 06:52

    US National Security Strategy – September 2002 – p. 6
    ———————————————————————————————————–

    ———– Still, that language a long way from “invading another country” which is what Gibson boiled the Bush Doctrine down to. Of course everyone already knows the US preemptively invaded Iraq.

    He was wrong, the doctrine quite broad and much more sweeping. One can quibble over definitions of “is” or “invade,” but Gibson only revealed that Palin was unfamilar with the Bush Doctrine, something I’ve never seen in print before and something 99.99% of Americans have never heard of.

    Not only, but he got it wrong by narrowing up the Bush Doctine to a page 6 interpretation in his explanation, which ain’t the broad open ended question he asked.

    I expect better in a climate where the republicans have already accused NBC of bias. Palin actually covered more of the Bush Doctrine in her answers in spite of not knowing of it than he did because it is so broad!

    I was just surprised to see Gibson look so out of self. Could be with the death of Jennings and his new status as the lead anchor that he is gotten out of his element as he was never meant to be a star the networks try to develop, but more a patch until a new star can be found.

  179. 180 Michael
    September 12, 2008 at 07:28

    Quiet nights ‘n quiet stars, quiet chords from my guitar
    Floating on the silence that surrounds us

  180. 181 Bob in Queensland
    September 12, 2008 at 07:39

    Re: Bush Doctrine

    Time for a quick straw poll:

    Hands up anyone who’s heard of or read about the Bush Doctrine before.

    (raises hand)

  181. 182 Vijay Srao in Chattarnagar Punjab India
    September 12, 2008 at 07:58

    Bush Doctrine = legacy?

  182. 183 Michael
    September 12, 2008 at 08:01

    @ Roberto

    The 2002 US National Security Strategy is 31 pages long . . . I just picked out the parts that seemed to most resemble what people call the “Bush Doctrine”. It is further referenced, reworded and summarized in the March 2006 version.

    Back in 2002, I remember the press/historians giving it this name, but any thoughtful discussion of it seemed to get lost amidst the ensuing “war on terror”. It is not surprising that Mr Gibson would have familiarity with it. I did not see the interview, but only read available transcripts of it.

    But form the abc news transcript, I think Gibson made a good summary:

    “GIBSON: The Bush Doctrine, as I understand it, is that we have the right of anticipatory self-defense, that we have the right to a preemptive strike against any other country that we think is going to attack us.”

    Later in the interview he brought the current Pakistan situation into context and it was Governor Palin who first used the phrase “right to invade”.

  183. 184 Michael
    September 12, 2008 at 08:51

    one last “Bush Doctrine” quote from the 2002 US National Security Strategy, p. 15

    “Given the goals of rogue states and terrorists, the United States can no longer solely rely on a reactive posture as we have in the past. The inability to deter a potential attacker, the immediacy of today’s threats, and the magnitude of potential harm that could be caused by our adversaries’ choice of weapons, do not permit that option. We cannot let our enemies strike first.”

  184. 185 Nofal Elias
    September 12, 2008 at 08:53

    @Lubna

    In Iraq…
    No jobs, no security, no electricity, no water … etc but you have FREEDOM and DEMOCRACY (LOL).
    First time you had an election to chose your own goverment, (the one selected for you by Bush adminstration – hahahhaha) .
    There is very thin line between democracy and chaos, American people can not understand that democracy is like a tree has to grew in time within the society. You just can’t use the west democracy in the middle east, it will never work.

    Yes I would say living under Ba’ath party goverment is millions time better than under US ruling, at least 95% of the population were living in peace and harmony, the other 5% (traitors) deserved to be terminated. I lived in Iraq without any problems for the first 23 years of my life

  185. 186 Michael
    September 12, 2008 at 09:12

    @ Nofal Elias

    I have never been to Iraq, but know some Catholic priests and nuns who have visited during the past few years. They report that there was respect and safety given to the Catholics in Iraq before the war that has now more or less disappeared amidst the current situation.

    I also got the sense form them that “American democracy” would not work in Iraq. Can you give some insight into what you think an “Iraqi democracy” might look like?

  186. 187 roebert
    September 12, 2008 at 09:16

    As I have a few days leave from my new job (junior clerk in the anti-American division in the Novo Ordo Mundi, to which I was demoted under protest) I’d like to ask whether anyone on the blog may have heard rumours of the existence of my country, South Africa? It’s not as big as America, and it doesn’t mind having a Black president, as long as he stays out of politics, which our current president has succeeded in doing for the last 8 years.

    The problem is that our next president, strongly favoured by the majority ( read: mob), has many plans to get involved in politics, and this is very worrying for the small White population group, who favour some form of non-mob democracy, but whose votes amount to a mere 20%, and can never swing anything.

    Furthermore, the next president is embroiled in court on corruption charges, and was also charged with rape. He believes that AIDS can be avoided by taking a shower after forced sex, and totes a machine gun( I think it is an AK47) on some public occasions. All this is rather worrying, and leaves me at a loss what to do.

    My question to the advice column is: how can I make my minority vote swing the elections in order to save the electorate from itself? Or, who will accept me as a political asylum-seeker, seeking an escape from being regularly tortured by mob stupidity, especially mob stupidity in high places?

  187. 188 Nofal Elias
    September 12, 2008 at 09:48

    I just read on BBC website…

    Mrs Palin was also quizzed on previous comments she made describing the war in Iraq as being a “task from God”.

    (hahahahhhahahhaha) is so funny
    This is US next Vice President and potentially is US first woman president.
    I am saying nothing on this

  188. 189 Pangolin- California
    September 12, 2008 at 09:56

    IIs it just me or am I the only person on the internet that recalls Putin turning off the gas to large chunks of Europe during a cold snap?

    Ok, not just me but the Telegraph seems to have an article also.

    So when Sara Palin said:

    “It doesn’t have to lead to war and it doesn’t have to lead, as I said, to a Cold War, but economic sanctions, diplomatic pressure, again, counting on our allies to help us do that in this mission of keeping our eye on Russia and Putin and some of his desire to control and to control much more than smaller democratic countries.
    His mission, if it is to control energy supplies, also, coming from and through Russia, that’s a dangerous position for our world to be in, if we were to allow that to happen. (emphasis mine)

    Did Vladimir Putin get tea up his nose or not? I think so.

    Just what the heck does she think NATO’s going to do if Russia gobbles Georgia? We got nothing.

    @ Bob- Yeah, I heard all about the Bush doctrine but what do I know, I’m just a handyman 😉 If I was going to be president I would need a much better rack….. of tools.

  189. 190 Zainab
    September 12, 2008 at 10:02

    Hello all,

    @Lubna
    how are you? Well of course as an Iraqi citizen I DO prefer to have my own love ones in general with or without Saddam. And since the situation got worst without Saddam .. so I PREFER having my love ones with him. Let me tell you a hard truth : that I have times sitting and sighing for Saddam’s days.

    @Nofal Elias
    “In Iraq…No jobs, no security, no electricity, no water … etc but you have FREEDOM and DEMOCRACY (LOL). First time you had an election to chose your own goverment, (the one selected for you by Bush adminstration – hahahhaha) …”

    how are you? Well you’ve said just what i wanted to say.. thank you.

    @WHYS
    Sex, drugs and oil: corruption scandal rocks US gov’t agency
    US Department of the Interior employees who handled billions of dollars in oil contracts improperly engaged in sex with energy company employees, a new report has said.

    http://www.arabia.msn.com/channels/msnnews/article.aspx?CatID=2&ID=609512&S=Read

    youre truly
    Zainab from Iraq

  190. 191 Pangolin- California
    September 12, 2008 at 10:07

    The point I’m making above is that the whole dingbat media has gone barking up the wrong tree with the McCain candidacy; again.

    Sara Palin having a detailed synopsis of the “Bush Doctrine” which really means ‘we attack whoever we please with no regard to courtesies or law’ doesn’t really matter. Everybody understands a presumed future Pres. Sara Palin will work on a ‘shoot first and ask questions never’ policy.

    What you EU bloggers should be barking about is that Mr. Putin has made very clear that if the US steps on Russia’s toes the EU gets chillblains. It would be very helpful to you if the US president knew this; or cared.

    Not my problem really.

  191. 192 Nofal Elias
    September 12, 2008 at 10:09

    @Michael

    Being a Catholic myself, I had loads of muslimes freinds and never had any problem living in Iraq as Catholic, don’t know the situation at the moment as I left Iraq in 1980 for study.
    When you have you own new baby, you will not know what is going to look like, but you will love him/her unconditionally, and you will do your best to look after it.

    Democracy is the same, it must be born from withing Iraq and will take time to reach a high level, and you can not rush it, as I said there is very thin line between democracy and chaeos.

  192. 193 Virginia Davis
    September 12, 2008 at 10:18

    @those voting for a Democratic president in Oct/Nov: what the United States needs is a “complete overhaul” of its infrastructure (with a lot of jobs training slackers how to work drug free – can’t endanger fellow workers and to get GEDs if needed; and some good sold middle class pay for a management class to doesn’t dilute concrete and only put three rivets instead of four) and a “complete overhaul” of the federal bureaucracy by “requalifying” everyone – getting rid of all those who crept in during the last 8 years; having affirmative actions quotas for various classes of the disabled; and rehiring all those who got fed up and quit. I plunked down (another) $25 to get the “Correspondence Team” to read these suggestions. And asked where my damn T-shirt for Obama/Biden is because as you all know I have a peculiar time table.

    @Governor Palin: I know she didn’t hear “hubris” from Charlie Gibson because she was so in a hurry to tell him her answer. Remember: don’t blink. She won’t if John McCain keels over from the excitement of the innagureation. Ask a question when you don’t know what the hell someone is asking you. Use what little you know to make it seem like you know a lot. And keep changing the language till you come up with something that makes sense to you……and all your followers who are following you. Does she know the definition of “hubris?”
    Can she even spell it? And who really gives a damn? Education may get you a degree and a profession. When are you leaving for Germany, Steve? Planning on coming back?

    @Roebert: sorry about the demotion. good luck as a minority. as for mob stupidity – good luck to us all…..

    Virginia in Oregon

  193. 194 Pangolin- California
    September 12, 2008 at 10:25

    @ roebert

    Apply now for immigration to um, anywhere else, because the greater mass of South African people are going to get royally annoyed when the price of world commodities continues to exceed their wage earning potential. They will seek scapegoats or lacking that something that will bleat when placed upon the altar of their fury.

    Also, learn to sail and move closer to your local marina. An amazingly small boat will get you across an ocean. Nobody says you have to buy the boat right away.

    The problem with magical thinking is that it is always lurking there in the background. Cell phones are magic. Computers are magic. The truck that delivers rice is magic. When hungry, hold magician hostage. If it doesn’t work, kill that one and try again. It works everywhere.

    Birth control, organic farming, permaculture, bicycle repair co-ops and Cuban style medical systems are so boring by comparison. Who cares if they work.

  194. 195 roebert
    September 12, 2008 at 10:33

    No one should take comfort in the co-opting of Morgan Tsvangirai into the Mugabe regime. This despotic process, apart from its terrifying significance for the future of Zimbabwe, actually represents a political pattern developing in Africa as a whole. Power alone is what counts, and ruinous power ensures complete control over a ruined population and a ruined economy.

    The ‘world’ (democratized western nations) should not stop attacking Mugabe until he’s thrown out into the garbage heap where he belongs. And Tsvangirai should be pressured not to buy into the power that Mugabe can offer him as part of the old-new tyranny. It really would have been better if he’d refused to take part in government until Mugabe was driven into the dust.

    None of this bodes well for the future of South Africa either. Our leaders have approved all this, and are now patting themselves on the back for having encouraged this unsavoury solution.

    We’re going down the drain.

  195. 196 roebert
    September 12, 2008 at 10:53

    Pangolin, yes: it’s a matter of milking the cow so hard it gets incurable mastitis, after which you slaughter it for the beef. And after that, who cares..?

    I do live in a seaside town, Hermanus, where, at this time of year, we have hundreds of beautiful whales in our bay. Perhaps I can hitch a ride to…er…Cuba, I think. It’s not only the music (Buena Vista Social Club style) that attracts me; but the real absence of racism, consumerism, ecological irresponsibility etc. Am I only a tired old seventies dreamer, or do I have it right when I surmise that Fidel Castro was not entirely the very bad old gentleman that I was always told he was?

  196. 197 Vijay
    September 12, 2008 at 11:01

    South Africa only 14 years after the end of white rule is really becoming African ,congratulations.

    Who will take in all the chicken run whites?

  197. 198 Nofal Elias
    September 12, 2008 at 11:04

    Once Zimbabwe discovers OIL in its land, America will be there to get rid off Mugabe and they will ensure to stay there until it runs out.
    Oh yes forgot about UK and very small countries bought by US money like Georgia (LOL)
    No OIL, nobody cares ……. remember the incident where one million people were slaughtered in Rowanda 1996 (??) and UN didn’t do a thing, although UN were warrned about it a month before it happened.

  198. 199 Jessica in NYC
    September 12, 2008 at 11:05

    @ Paul, hi.

    I agree with Bob in Queensland and think we should break away when possible from American politics. There will be plenty of pressing events that will bring us back to our presidential debates through out the next two months.

    1) I’d like to discuss Pakistan/Afghan war. The effects of not respect sovereignty. Even this, brings us back to US politics.

    2) Zimbabwe would be a better topic for Monday when we have all the info.

    3) Travel — is it worth the hassle? Yes! Travel is not really cheap in the US right now with a weak economy. Since the dollar is not doing well, I would not even think about international travel. So the domestic exploration will be my route. Looking at the BBC bus stops in the US, I realized I have traveled more here than I realize.

    4) Palin tanked the interview. But, w-h-y-y-y should a bulldog know about PRESIDENT Bush’s Doctrine, as another WHYS blogger said to me? As someone who thinks she is an abysmal choice to be a heart beat away from the Presidency, I am more concerned over her gross ignorance and understanding of the foreign policy after the interview. Maybe she should have blinked and asked herself can I do this job when McCain asked. How arrogant of her to say, yes, I am ready to be VP and President. People with experience should do a double, let alone someone who counts living close to Russia as having foreign policy. Biden will mop the floor with her at the their debate. I’ll be watching with popcorn in hand.

  199. 200 Pangolin- California
    September 12, 2008 at 11:07

    @ roebert

    Regretfully, even if you are right we in the north are broke, busted, tapped out. We have bet the farm and any future farms we might be gifted with on a never-ending fountain of oil and that fountain is choking. Our money; garbage, not even paper but digital noise. You can burn paper on a cold night.

    Your country has a huge resource in a desert right next to the ocean. It’s perfect for the production of chemicals using sea-water and concentrated solar thermal power but you won’t build it. I don’t know how much grain you produce but my guess is ‘not enough.’ That could be improved using biochar and permaculture but that would take years also.

    World trade is about to take a beating and that means more for the rich and less for everybody else. Don’t hang out too close to the everybody else if you can avoid it. Google; Collapse. Just the one word.

  200. 201 Jessica in NYC
    September 12, 2008 at 11:09

    @ Pangolin- California

    “Everybody understands a presumed future Pres. Sara Palin will work on a ’shoot first and ask questions never’ policy”

    I’d like for Dick Chaney and Sara Palin to go hunting together.

  201. 202 Meg in Canada
    September 12, 2008 at 13:02

    Re: Travel

    In my opinion, travel is a luxury. It’s a reward that some people choose in exchange for their hard work, hard-earned money, and is a way for people to relax. When I travel, I like to see different parts of the world. I have no problem with domestic travel, but since I only get to go rarely I’d like to go abroad.

  202. September 12, 2008 at 13:03

    Welcome back Paul! When did you rejoin WHYS?

  203. September 12, 2008 at 13:21

    Nofal Elias September 12, 2008 at 8:53 am.
    Michael Burke did a very interesting interview with a anglican priest couple days back, the vicar’s church from memory was in the green zone of bagdad, this man said he was fearless, ( which when I give fearlessness a little thought, I think its not so much he’s fearless as he does not value his life above those around him, which to me implies he feels in some way responsible, in a way he is, any religion that says its top dog ( excuse the freudian use of dog ) is flawed no religion knows more than any other religion as the being they all worship is largely unknown. ) He suffered from multiple sclerosis, he needed an arm guard as his lack of fear made him vunerable. His motivation for running a church was to bridge the gap between religions. The impression I got is that it is very difficult to go to church in iraq.

    In some ways america seems to be a victim of its own success. The richer the US gets the more it appears to attract hatred. So the very way of life in the US is under attack. Success is under attack. Although it appears to be waged on a religious platform – that is confusing the issue, well its confusing me. So who will win, no one knows, will it be a long battle, no one knows. What should we do in the mean time. Respect each other. Those who want the western way of life go for it, but the same time not persecute those from simpler less capitalist areas of the world. Because I think we need both styles to make the world a better place. The more diverse we are the richer and less vunerable. I think Democracy is flawed well at least the UK version is. Iraq has the ideal opportunity to refine these flaws out . And maybe make itself and the world a better place. K T F.

  204. 205 Virginia Davis
    September 12, 2008 at 13:25

    @Roebert: Have been watching BBC America news. Zuma beat the corruption charges, seeking permanent relief. His supporters looked happy at this clearing of his way to Presidency of South Africa.

    Your town sounds nice. Castro had an iron fist (especially to the Miami crowd) but I think Che would have been pleased. I have no place to sail to so I guess I’ll stay in my neighborhood. Bolivia and Venezuela kicking out US ambassadors. And Russian planes already landed in Venezuela.

    Re Zimbabwe, the BBC interviewed a member of the Z Crisis Group in SA – his opinion the same as yours. That MT and a number had been co opted by Mugabe. A sharing of power. The old man survives. We’ll see what Monday brings. Mugabe already asking for investment from West. West is going to wait.

    Best to you. The first book I read about SA was Cry, The Beloved Country. I only remember the title now.

    As for Pakistan and the US incursion…..I, who believe in Deity, pray that George W. does not mess up any more of the world than he already has.

    Virginia in Oregon

  205. 206 Dennis @ OCC
    September 12, 2008 at 14:25

    Good morning Paul C:

    Welcome back to the WORLD HAVE YOUR SAY family…..

    Dennis

  206. 207 Jessica in NYC
    September 12, 2008 at 14:35

    RE: Joke that Dick Chaney and Sara Palin to go hunting

    In no way am I suggesting or wishing Chaney shoot Sara or anything related.

    Just a joke on the whole moose thing.

    Heck, I’d send Biden on this hunting trip, though he’s better wear a vest and let Palin do the shooting.

  207. 208 selena in Canada
    September 12, 2008 at 14:40

    All this talk about who is and who isn’t qualified to be President is amusing. What does it mean to be qualified?

    Have a look at this documentary and you might get a better perspective of qualifications.

    It is a long one!

  208. 209 selena in Canada
    September 12, 2008 at 14:41

    @ Jessica

    You are brilliant. That was really very funny! I would love to see them hunting together.
    LOL

  209. 210 Bob in Queensland
    September 12, 2008 at 14:42

    Moose thing? Between Moose, pitbull and pig jokes this could go down as the animal election….

  210. 211 Angela in Washington
    September 12, 2008 at 14:49

    @Bob

    I am wondering when the issues will become the frontrunner than these petty insults.

  211. September 12, 2008 at 14:49

    I do not really have much time this AM but, here is the focal point of what has bothered me and why even as the man that drove me to the democrats leaves office, I am still leaning that way.

    I just got an e-mail that highlights th difference between the Republican and the Democratic campaigns. I get negative Emails and media assertions about the democratic nominee and when I research them they end up being lies and stretches of the truth. When I receive negative e-mail about the Republican nominees, it ends up being true and with more substance. This email didn’t have character attacks about religion and flag pins, but attacks about positions and claims. Real information about the candidate.

    Give me somebody honest I disagree with over somebody who is willing to lie about their own beliefs just to get a vote.

    I am still in search of a negative email about McCain with broad character attacks that ended up not being true. Anybody got one?

  212. 213 roebert
    September 12, 2008 at 15:34

    Vijay: Are you celebrating what you call the ‘africanization’ of South Africa? If so, you must have very little empathy with the Africans themselves. ‘Chicken run’ whites, you say? Jeez, man, the half of India lives all over the world. Mandela said it best when he condemned emigrating Whites for being like ‘rats abandoning a sinking ship.’ Don’t know if he knew what he was saying, though…

    Virginia: thank you for your good wishes. Life is tough down here, but we’ve sorta toughened along with it. The Zuma court whitewash signals, in my opinion, only one thing: the beginning of the end of an independent judiciary in South Africa; unless Judge Nicholson can make a really convincing, internationally satisfying case for his ruling.

    Zim: the definitive Vijay-type africanized state, with no white chicken runners left. Gad, how you do rob me of my sense of humour.

  213. 214 Angela in Washington
    September 12, 2008 at 15:36

    I know this was news a few day ago but I was wondering how people felt that Oprah would not have Palin on her show.

  214. 215 Shirley
    September 12, 2008 at 15:36

    It’s been seven years since the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, and many young American Muslims are convinced that much of American society views them with growing hostility. They’re right.

  215. September 12, 2008 at 15:41

    I know this was news a few day ago but I was wondering how people felt that Oprah would not have Palin on her show.

    Well, Steve was quite upset about it….

  216. 217 Angela in Washington
    September 12, 2008 at 15:42

    Thanks for the info Brett

  217. 218 Jessica in NYC
    September 12, 2008 at 15:52

    RE Animal jokes and hunting

    @ Selena– your comment about qualifications is interesting. I think since the right to hold arms is a constitutional right, then US Presidents should know how to shoot a gun. LOL

    @ Bob– haven’t American politics always been somewhat of a circus?

  218. 219 Angela in Washington
    September 12, 2008 at 15:57

    @Jessica

    I agree but if they must know how to shoot, they should be able to aim properly. I understand why W did not always go with Dick. Dick may have shot him, accidently in the foot.

  219. September 12, 2008 at 15:59

    Its a shame that Dick is so unpatriotic…. Every patriotic American should know how to shoot a gun… And wear an American flag pin on their hunting vest when theyre out shooting wwwaskly wabbits…. or eachother (by accident of course) lol

  220. 221 steve
    September 12, 2008 at 16:00

    @ Brett
    Oprah is afraid that Palin on the show will mean more women votes for Mccain.

  221. 222 Angela in Washington
    September 12, 2008 at 16:10

    @Steve

    Oprah has not had any of the canidates on her shown, since the campaign season started. She made up her mind at first. She went around with him but he has not been on her show since he announced his decision to run. I think she made up her mind last year and things have not changes, although the election has changed.

  222. 224 Shirley
    September 12, 2008 at 16:14

    191 Nofal Elias September 12, 2008 at 10:09 am
    Being a Catholic myself, I had loads of muslimes freinds and never had any problem living in Iraq as Catholic, don’t know the situation at the moment as I left Iraq in 1980 for study.

    Nofal, there are foreign extremists in Iraq whose pleasure it is to spread hatred againt all things not Salafist. Christians and Shia Muslims seem to be getting the worst of it there. I almost wonder if this sectarian discord does not somehow benefit the United States.

  223. September 12, 2008 at 16:18

    Hi portlandmike
    Reyr September 12, 2008 at 2:18 am comment
    It was inevitable. Sooner or later Pakistan would become the target and victim of terrorism.
    They are a wonderful people but what can the rest of the world do with 170 million Pakistanis who, for the most part, can’t feed themselves or integrate into the international community. India is also a problem but it may have escaped close scrutiny for the time being.
    There was a great legacy of courage and valour in the North West Frontier, but it has gradually degenerated into a fundamentalist, terrorist hideout.
    Did President George W. Bush have any choice, it is doubtful!
    The government in Islamabad is precarious. The Zia-al-Haq scenario is back, with a few set changes perhaps.
    We in Iran are no less danger prone. The noose is tightening by the day. Tehran is after the bomb to protect prelates. Unfortunate as it may seem, drastic changes are underway, with or without Washingtion’s approval.

  224. 226 steve
    September 12, 2008 at 16:21

    @ Angela

    Oprah has endorsed Obama.

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2007-10-21-endorsements_N.htm

    If she has Palin on the show, she risks some of her 99.9% female audience voting for Mccain.

  225. 227 Anthony
    September 12, 2008 at 16:24

    @ Jamily

    I knew one blind person, and her dog let her walk into the street and got hit by a bus. I don’t care if you’re blind or not, I just don’t like money spent on such a small minority!!!

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  226. 228 Anthony
    September 12, 2008 at 16:28

    I think I’ll be in this blog since I don’t care much for the grandparents topic…

    So Venezuela!!! Man, there are Russian Bombers there now, and they will be sending warships!!! Pretty scary right!!! Seriously, can you say “Red Dawn”, but not the movie, the reality!!! I’m getting my buck shot, and 7.62x54R ammo ready!!! Molotov Cocktails anyone???

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  227. 229 steve
    September 12, 2008 at 16:29

    @ Anthony

    You have a Mosin Nagant?

  228. 230 Bryan
    September 12, 2008 at 16:31

    roebert September 12, 2008 at 9:16 am,

    Ain’t nobody gonna give you no assistance as a South African refugee. You are not black and this is not the seventies. Too bad that you are considered a white thorn in the foot of black Africa and that the whole of the body of Africa intends to stoop and pull you out. You ain’t gonna get no sympathy from the far left dears who run the “human rights” organisations and refugee agencies of the enlightened West. You are the wrong colour and your plight does not inspire them to flights of poetic fancy, leave alone practical action.

    So rather make our own plans. You could try to pass yourself off as Hispanic and slip into the US via Mexico.

    Better do it before the ANC government appoints a Minister of Deterioration to speed the process.

  229. 231 Virginia Davis
    September 12, 2008 at 16:31

    @the animal theme:

    “Democracy is the art and science of running the circus from the monkey cage.”
    H. L. Mencken

    Note: Mencken quite impressive on “politicians” “democracy” etc. Check him out on google to enliven your ill will.

    @Anthony:

    from Karl Marx: From each according to ability; to each according to need.
    Another argument for diversity and “special needs.” Out in Gresham, OR (a MAX ride away) is a training facility for seeing eye dogs. What if there is a large sun spot and everyone in LA is blinded, including yourself? What about “special needs” then?

    Virginia in Oregon

  230. 232 Angela in Washington
    September 12, 2008 at 16:36

    @Steve

    Yes she endorsed Obama but she has not had any of the candidate on her show. It would be different if she had Obama and Hilary on her show but not Palin or McCain. She has not had any of the candidates on her show, since the announcements were made. She said this a long time ago, now people want her to change positions and have Palin on the show. That is ridiculous.

  231. 233 Bryan
    September 12, 2008 at 16:36

    The fact that Oprah wont have Sarah Palin on her show says more about Oprah than Palin.

    Bob in Queensland September 12, 2008 at 1:55 am

    In yesterday’s talking points somebody asked if it was appropriate for “foreigners” to express an opinion on American politics, the implication being that it wasn’t.

    Reminds me of the Guardian’s letter-writing campaign to the good citizens of Ohio before the last election. Knowing the Guardian, I suspect they weren’t urging them to vote Republican. I found that blatant interference a little strange.

  232. 234 steve
    September 12, 2008 at 16:39

    @ Angela

    She didn’t want Hillary on the show, so that her female audience would vote for Obama. She doesn’t want Palin on for the same reason.

    She has agreed to have Palin on the show AFTER the election is over, when the possibility of losing women’s votes to Mccain no longer exists..

  233. 235 Angela in Washington
    September 12, 2008 at 16:39

    @Anthony

    You asked me a while ago if working for the Navy influenced my decision to vote. I can’t answer that question because of work.

  234. 236 Angela in Washington
    September 12, 2008 at 16:40

    @Steve

    She made that decsion a long time ago, to not have any politicians on her show. People were making a big deal out of nothing.

  235. 237 steve
    September 12, 2008 at 16:42

    @ Angela

    That’s a convenient way to not possibly have her 99.9% female audience vote for someone she doesn’t approve of. she’s afraid of losing votes for Obama, that’s why she won’t have anyone on her show.

  236. 238 Anthony
    September 12, 2008 at 16:44

    @ steve

    NICE!!! You knew!!! Yes, a Tula edition, with matching serials. I know it’s not the best gun, but that round will pierce some armor. I will be getting an SKS in the near future. I really want an AR-15, but those are way to much cash!!!

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  237. 239 Roberto
    September 12, 2008 at 16:45

    I’d like to discuss Pakistan/Afghan war.
    ——————————————————————————————————–

    ——– No Pakistan/Afghan war to discuss. The governments ain’t at war with each other save public snipes, not snipers.

    Feel free to discuss the Islamic reformation and Islamic terrorist operations in the remote tribal border regions.

    Pakistanis have been burning each other mosques for years, so it ain’t like the Islamic civil wars have just started up. They’ve just moved to some higher value targets, that’s all.

  238. 240 steve
    September 12, 2008 at 16:48

    @ Anthony

    I have the M44 carbine. Doesn’t have matching serials but I paid only $75 for it so I have no complaints. Can’t even hit paper with it in an indoor range, so I don’t shoot it much, need to have the sights adjusted which I really don’t have much idea how to do. Lots of recoil with that one. I let my ex girlfriend shoot it and she bruised pretty badly from it.

  239. 241 Bryan
    September 12, 2008 at 16:52

    Portland Mike,

    You said that the US should have chased Osama into Pakistan in the beginning and captured or finished him off there. So why is that no longer appropriate?

  240. 242 Anthony
    September 12, 2008 at 16:55

    @ steve

    Hehe. I wouldn’t let my ex fire it, since even my 12 gauge was hurting her. She liked my .22 Marlin better. I remember I was at the range and some “gang banger” looking guys were kinda laughing at my .22 when they were shooting their glocks to the side like idiots, yet I got head shoots from 50 yards 10 shots in a row, when they barley got 1 shoulder shot from 25 yards out of ten shots. Hehe, people are funny.

    Was def worth the 79.99 I paid for the Mosin though!

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  241. 243 steve
    September 12, 2008 at 16:58

    Anthony

    A .22LR is impossible to miss with. I have a marlin Papoose and it’s the most accurate gun I’ve ever fired.

  242. 244 Anthony
    September 12, 2008 at 17:04

    @ steve

    Nice. I wanted to get that, but I’m a cheap guy and got the cheaper, not as pretty one. Did you know if you shoot a potato with .22 hollow tips they will blow up!!! It’s pretty cool. Where is it you live again? Was is D.C.???

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  243. 245 steve
    September 12, 2008 at 17:09

    I live in Northern Virginia. I doubt they would let me bring potatoes to the firing range.

  244. 246 Jennifer
    September 12, 2008 at 17:53

    @jamily5

    My mom lives in a small town and there are not many women translators who are fluent in both English and Spanish. And, otherwise, yes there is a shortage of translators (male and female) here. My mom has picked up a few words and does try to speak those words when possible directly to her clients instead of going through the translator. I wouldn’t say that she just doesn’t want to learn Spanish. It would be a lot easier for her if she could and cut out the translator altogether. However, that would open up another can of worms.

  245. 247 roebert
    September 12, 2008 at 18:00

    Virginia: on HL Mencken; the best funny read this side of the grave. I always have him handy in crisis situations: waiting at airports, sitting squeezed up on the plane….or just when I’m really p’d off. They don’t make Menckens anymore.

    Bryan: All I can do is bow my head and agree with you. But I’m not aiming to run off anywhere just yet…too old and settled in… and, I do really love Africa. My kids are out, so that’s OK. In my case my past is my future, so I’ll just wait around and see what transpires. One crazy thing I’ve always hoped for is to return to India for the last few years of my life. It’s the place where some other part of me feels at home.

    What I cannot understand is why the ‘world’ would not entertain the thought of allowing White South Africans just a wee bit of turf to call their own….you know…kinda like the Jews have in Israel?

  246. September 12, 2008 at 18:03

    Shirley September 12, 2008 at 3:36 pm
    We have just had a trial of some muslim british pakistan origin guys accussed of plotting to murder. Listening to BBC radio 4 last night it seems Britian is to some a legitimate holy jehad target ( although the word Jehad just glancing a web site does not equate to terrorism, so we start to get semantic when is war not terrorism and when is terrorism not war ). Not withstanding, Some young British muslims may be getting training in terrorism by going to Kashmir. What effect does this have on the Muslim / Pakistan community here in england. I’m afraid, they maybe increasingly disliked too as other Brits try to work out who is the enemy. So there is a clash of cultures based on religions, all flawed. Democracy is flawed, start drumming your fingers, as this is a tough one to solve. I hope somebody invents a fast track intelligence and truth drug so people done get brainwashed into this jehad stuff. K T F.

  247. 249 Bryan
    September 12, 2008 at 18:27

    roebert September 12, 2008 at 6:00 pm,

    I appreciate that. As I realise you know very well, it’s just an unfortunate fact that white South Africans, even if they have been loyal comrades in The Struggle, will never have the status of black South Africans in the eyes of the International Community. White South African simply cannot be victims of oppression, discrimination, brutality and dispossession by their black compatriots. It cannot happen.

    A refuge? Perhaps Kofi Annan has some ideas or the new guy, whatshisname.

  248. 250 Tom D Ford
    September 12, 2008 at 18:49

    The Bush Doctrine is essentially the same doctrine that Adolf Hitler espoused in his speech just before invading Poland.

    Our Greatest Generation, in the Nuremberg Trials, defined the future Bush Doctrine as War Crimes.

  249. 251 Bryan
    September 12, 2008 at 19:05

    Tom D Ford September 12, 2008 at 6:49 pm

    The Bush Doctrine is essentially the same doctrine that Adolf Hitler espoused in his speech just before invading Poland.

    And you are essentially equating a goldfish bowl with the ocean.

  250. 252 Tom D Ford
    September 12, 2008 at 19:48

    Oprah privately owns her show, she does not have the obligation of a news organization to present all sides of a story.

    Frankly I admire her restraint, she could easily put her massive resources behind any candidate she wants to, she could influence large companies to endorse and support someone or lose their ability to advertise on her show, she could have experts on to dissect the opponent without being obligated to allow the opponent to respond, she could get into the fray herself and advocate all she wants without giving equal time to the opponent.

    Oprah is a class act in my opinion and I admire her.

  251. 253 Jennifer
    September 12, 2008 at 20:30

    @ Tom

    Oprah not allowing Sarah Palin on her show says to me that she is rather bias towards Obama. I honestly wonder if Oprah likes what Obama stands for or if she just wants to see the first black president elected into office? Maybe her show is privately owned, but doesn’t she want to provide her views with a wide variety of guests? I think it’d show confidence in her choice for President. Take Elizabeth Hasselbeck, she was on the View when they spoke with Michelle Obama. She didn’t like her but they still had her on the show!

  252. 254 Nofal Elias
    September 12, 2008 at 20:57

    @Selena

    thank you for posting this link
    Have a look at this documentary and you might get a better perspective of qualifications.

    I watched all of it, and came to few conclusions
    1. US adminstration had post war plan and that was to create chaeos
    2. Serigo Vieira De Mello was murdered not by the insurgents.
    3. US adminstration responsible for killing 1000’s of civilians, destroying the infrastructure of the country, making millions of people homeless.

    Anybody with little bit of common sense would see dismantiling the Iraqi army and police force would create insurgency, therefore the US adminstration is responsible for the death of 4000+ American soliders and I don’t how many disabled ones.

    Therefor all US adminstration should be brought to justice and be charged as war criminals.

  253. 255 selena in Canada
    September 12, 2008 at 21:09

    @Nofal

    Whatever one’s conclusions, I submit that every American should watch this documentary before voting.

  254. September 12, 2008 at 22:20

    You know, I can’t help think, its not guns that should be used to quell al quaida, in pakistan, shouldn’t we be talking to them, some how if they have a leader, shouldn’t bush and brown be chattin, with a view to getting on the same wavelength, if your going to wipe out Al quaida shouldn’t that be already done, ok you haven’t wiped them out, so can’t we start some dialogue or am I being naive. Or Does Bush just want to kill as many as he can, so to Brown, So to the leader of Al quaida. Don’t war conclude in some way. I mean take for instance my neighbour , he just appologised to me but go back a month he threatened to punch me. I mean don’t we move on sometimes. ?? K T F.

  255. 257 steve
    September 12, 2008 at 22:37

    @ Nofal

    Even the Secretary of the Interior and the Secretary of Education should be tried as a war criminal? I dare not ask about the Secretary of Agriculture!

  256. 258 steve
    September 12, 2008 at 22:38

    @ Jennifer

    Oprah publicly endorsed Obama and wants her entire audience to vote for Obama. That’s why she didn’t have on Hillary clinton earlier, so she could take the votes of some of her audience members in the primaries, and certainly won’t allow that to happen in the general election.

  257. September 12, 2008 at 23:55

    I think Oprah would make a great President, can see her now etched on those rocks, well, maybe not what a night mare, as for Obama I don’t think he has the performance of Hilary, but I think you would still need 100 Hilarys, maybe a dozen or so Abraham Lincolns to get America back on song again. And we’ll swop you Obama for Gordon Brown, no one will notice 🙂 keep the faith

  258. 260 Nofal Elias
    September 13, 2008 at 00:21

    @Selina

    I totaly agree with you, how can anybody vote for the republicans after watching this video.
    Having said that they voted for the most stupid presidant ever, twice. why?
    Personally I think McCain worse than Bush, Sara Palin has no clue what so ever what she will be doing. She has good second hand experience in the oil business through her husband.(LOL).

  259. 261 Nofal Elias
    September 13, 2008 at 00:45

    @Steve

    Yeh whatever, you know what I meant, all the idiots in the US adminstration who were involved in the WAR discion making against Iraq, just watch the video. Maybe you will change your mind about who you will be voting next time.

  260. 262 Jennifer
    September 13, 2008 at 01:15

    @ Steve

    So she’s being biased and not letting anyone else appear on her show until after the election? That’s interesting. I was disappointed about Jennifer Garner endorsing Obama though because I like her.

  261. 263 Emile Barre
    September 13, 2008 at 13:48

    I know why the case against Zuma was dropped. The ANC were afraid he would be found innocent.

  262. September 13, 2008 at 22:14

    You know there was a report on Radio 4, of terrorist strikes in Delhi, and I thought, is attaching islam to these acts accurate, should not the lslam organisation try to protect its name and legally sue those who attach islam to a terrorist group, in any form, written , over the radio or tv. Because I can’t see how you can kill and say is on behalf of islam, or kill and say your killing on behalf of christianity, or judeaism.
    Keep the faith


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