Talking Points 2nd September

Goodmorning it’s Karnie with you today..Thank you Nelson in Nigeria and Vanessa & Brett in the US for looking after the blog for us.

A UK academic says we are all inherently racist and that racial tolerance is merely skin deep. John Steiner says he will not tolerate Jamaican neighbours. As you can imagine, he has been criticised BUT other academics are defending his honesty, saying they were a valuable addition to an important debate. So let’s broaden this debate right here..Is he right? Are people inherently racist?


EU leaders have shied away from imposing sanctions on Russia. Following an EU emergency summit in Brussels yesterday, one EU foreign minister said: “Russia has shown its true face. “The problem for us is how are we going to respond.” At the heart of this lies Europe’s vulnerability, since it depends on Russia for oil and gas. Is Russia holding the west ransom to it’s oil and gas supply? If the European Union is failing to deal with Russia, what’s the point of the EU?


The hottest topic on the WHYS blog is about the 17 year old daughter of Sarah Palin, Bristol Palin who’s 5 months pregnant. It’s the most read story on the CNN website and a quick browse around this morning shows newspapers across the world are talking about it too. Barack Obama says Palin’s family is “off limits.” Should the Republican party have come clean about this before the Republican convention? Sarah Palin has even got the backing of key evangelical leaders. Does it matter that her 17 year old daughter is pregnant? Will this damage the image of the Republican party?


“Have-A-Go-Heroes” are an increasing rarity in Britain. Britons believe that anti-social behaviour is a matter for the police, whereas other countries see it as the role of parents, teachers and the community. They are also the least likely in Europe to intervene when a crime is taking place. Instead they are ‘passive bystanders’ reduced to calling for ‘something to be done’. Is it time Britain stopped blaming politicians etc and toughened up? Should Britain place greater emphasis on individual intervention and not rely on the police and justice system as much?

164 Responses to “Talking Points 2nd September”

  1. September 1, 2008 at 19:46

    Hi every one, I am Nelson and I will be hosting tonight along side Brett and Venessa. As always please feel free to comment on current debates or suggest your own.

  2. September 1, 2008 at 19:50

    The breaking scandals of Sarah Palin would be good – there is so many of them. O_o

  3. September 1, 2008 at 19:52

    Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi wants to give oil profits directly to citizens. Will these reforms increase the standard of living of the average Libyan? Can this model be implemented to improve the lives of people living in oil producing countries in Africa and else where who never really reap the benefits of huge oil profits?

  4. 5 Shirley
    September 1, 2008 at 20:02

    The UN is raising the issue of the Ethiopian draught.

    A party switch in the Canadian legislature means that the Green Party has arrived in their Parliament. Are they on their way up in the world?

    The deforestation in the Amazon has a surprising jump. It is attributed to a ising demand for soy and cattle pushes farmers and ranchers to raze trees. Are we doing enough? Should governments be involved in regulating the goods that we import based on how they affect the resources of another part of the world?

    The rate of unemployment/underemployment has spike by 25% in the past year. Why are we still allowing our corporations to overseas and neglect national workers?

    `Abdelilah, the shrine at Samarra is a stump: http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/2913/499/1600/goldenmosque.jpg . Zainab, Lubna, what progress has actually been made on re-building?

  5. 6 Pangolin- California
    September 1, 2008 at 20:07

    In case those of you in the rest of the world are wondering about the choice of Sarah Palin for VP nominee……

    Yes, the american people are just stupid enough to accept this lightweight as a presidential figure should John (I’ve had two bouts of cancer) McCain fall ill and be unable to continue as president.

    After all, we’re the dummies that think that oil prices will fall now if we promise to drill for oil in Alaska several years from now.

    Next, americans perfect the art of making a sandwich with bread from a single grain of wheat yet to be planted or ground to flour.

  6. 7 Shirley
    September 1, 2008 at 20:08

    Dwight, when you come in, I am wondering about your recent blog post about Palin. It’s the one in which you used strong language. I didn’t get the sense that you stated your gripe with her clearly in that post. You did seem to raise clear issues in previous ones.

    I wish that bogspot didn’t require java to post comments. Hopefully I’ll get myself to a ibrary this week to do higher-level technology online surfing.

  7. 8 Amy
    September 1, 2008 at 20:09


    Is it me and my cynical mind or is the McCain camp putting out all of these stories about Palin and her family while the hurricane is going on to avoid news coverage. Personally, I believe they want to bury the stories especially the fact that:

    “In a 2006 Eagle Forum questionnaire, Palin indicated that she supported funding abstinence-until-marriage education programs instead of teaching sex-education programs.” Adding, “Explicit sex-ed programs will not find my support,” Palin wrote in the conservative group’s questionnaire.”

    Too bad she obviously didn’t teach her daughter at home….

  8. 10 Colleen
    September 1, 2008 at 20:20

    @ Will & Amy

    I feel bad about this story that it will get so much press. But seriously it shows how much McCain did not put much thought or scrutiny behind he decision to pick Palin. It makes me wonder if he knew about the pregnancy. Apparently McCain and Palin only met one time in person back in February… a great way to pick your chief advisor….

  9. September 1, 2008 at 20:21


    The GOP are utilising as much time as possible with Gustav – Hannah is coming in, too.

    I was on Digg earlier and the bloggers are going hell-bent on keeping these stories open, me included.

  10. 12 Julie P
    September 1, 2008 at 20:23


    Nothing like Swiftboating, is there? 🙂

  11. 13 gary
    September 1, 2008 at 20:23

    @ Nelsoni
    My mother once said to me, “If all wealth were suddenly and equally redistributed today, tomorrow would see as many rich and poor as went to bed the day before yesterday.” I sure she had no evidence upon which to base this prediction; but I think it is probably correct.

  12. 14 Jessica in NYC
    September 1, 2008 at 20:24

    Oh yes, let’s talk about how Sara Palin’s teenage daughter pregnant at 17. I guess she was too busy with interview to the WSJ discussing her work out routine and eating habits and forgot to be a mother and have the talk about with her teenager about the birds and the bees. I know this is hash, but now the kid is being forced into marriage. Does that make it ok to get pregnant as a teenager, since they’re getting married? What about the sanction of marriage and how the religious right say homosexual will devalue marriage? Who honestly believes this kid will stay married to the guy she’s being forced to marry? All and all, they are lucky, because their parents are wealthy enough to support them and they will never know the true hardships of being a teenage parent.

  13. 15 Jessica in NYC
    September 1, 2008 at 20:26

    @ Parents

    Why is it hard to speak to your kids about sex? We know what the cons are, but what are the pros for not having the talk? Also, if you are against sex-education in school, would you care to share why? I’d like to TRY and understand.

  14. 16 Jessica in NYC
    September 1, 2008 at 20:33

    Just for fun:

    New York Times: Republican Convention Schedule
    A mock schedule for the Republican National Convention features a special presentation by Paris Hilton on global warming: “That’s hot!”


    My favorite is are the themes: Peace through Fear and Deficits Schmeficits. LOL

  15. 17 Shirley
    September 1, 2008 at 20:34

    Nationalisation of Industries
    I am surprised at Gadafi’s move. The concept of state control over means of production confuses me – mostly because my mind cannot process the words and I need some historical examples. But it does intrigue me. When Cuba nationalised various sectors of its market, the US under Eisenhower began to sabotage cane production by dropping incendiary bombs on fields, and to pipe in an opposition-supporting radio station from a nearby island. How might Gadafi’s move affect Libya? Might there be foreign interference?

    Palin’s Daughter
    It could happen to anyone. I think that there are issues that are so much more important than people’s personal lives, except where personal life interferes with political performance. I would much more concerned about Palin’s stance on educational issues and women’s health care than ahout what her daughter does with her own teenage spare time. One thing that does impress me about the situaiton with Palin’s daughter is that Palin herself is not shunning her daughter or leaving her to fight this struggle alone. Hopefully the marriage will go through and a young, healthy family can be established.

  16. 18 Colleen
    September 1, 2008 at 20:35

    @ jessica

    and yes i think the decision to have them get married is very suspect. if it wasnt for this campaign, would they really make their 17 year old daughter jump into marriage just because she’s pregnant?? what about adoption or just raising the child in the family — heck there’s already one new-born in the mix!!?? doesnt palin want her daughter to go to college and have all the opportunities she has had?

    and i think this totally challenges the republican view that only abstinence show be taught to teens…

  17. 19 Amy
    September 1, 2008 at 20:38


    I think now they need to expand the talk about family values given by Guiliani.

  18. 20 Julie P
    September 1, 2008 at 20:38


    Just remember the Republican Party is the ‘family values’ party where clearly they endorse premarital sex of minors as long as it involves forced marriage!

  19. 21 Jessica in NYC
    September 1, 2008 at 20:40

    @ Amy

    I read about it in the WSJ that in 2006 Palin supported abstinence-only education policies.

    “Will you support funding for abstinence-until-marriage education instead of for explicit sex-education programs, school-based clinics, and the distribution of contraceptives in schools?” the survey asked, “Yes, the explicit sex-ed programs will not find my support,” Palin responded.

    The Wall Street Journal: McCain Camp Offers Talking Points on Palin Pregnancy

  20. 22 Amy
    September 1, 2008 at 20:40


    I took care of your duplicate post 🙂

  21. 23 Julie P
    September 1, 2008 at 20:43


    Let’s not forget about Newt Gingrich’s “family values” of leaving your wife on her death bed to marry your mistress!

  22. 24 Colleen
    September 1, 2008 at 20:47

    @ Amy, thanks!

    so to everyone — do you think that mccain knew about the pregnancy?

  23. 25 Amy
    September 1, 2008 at 20:48


    While I agree that there are so many more important issues facing our country than the pregnancy of a 17 year old, the fact that the conservative wing of the Republican party hails Gov. Palin as a poster child for their view makes this a valid topic for discussion. Instead of talking about the lack of sex education (either in the daughter’s school or at home) they are praising her for deciding to keep the baby. Quite honestly, I don’t think that Bristol Palin probably had much of a choice…. she may not have even been allowing to take part in the discussion at at.

  24. 26 Julie P
    September 1, 2008 at 20:49


    Yes Coat Hanger McCain knew about Palin’s teenage daughter’s pregnancy.

  25. 27 Shirley
    September 1, 2008 at 20:49

    Is the marriage forced? Has anyone seen any indications that it is forced? Or is the accusation of a forced marriage based on the fact that Palin’s duaghter is young and planning to marry the young man?

    Are we forgetting about Palin’s accusations of corruption, her views on education, and her stance on women’s health care as we chase down another sex scandal? I mean, it makes sense given the hormonal drives that motivate our thinking patterns. Heck, men’s thoughts are interrupted every eight seconds, they say. But why lose focus on politically important issues when we are dealing with politicians?

    Or is the foot tap dance in the bathroom just that much more interesting than national policies?

  26. 28 Julie P
    September 1, 2008 at 20:54


    It’s also about their rife hypocrisies, like their ‘family values’. Evidently PTA mom wasn’t doing her job at teaching her children not have sex, or talk about birth control, but I can assure you that get on their soapbox and will preach to us all day long about it.

  27. 29 Jessica in NYC
    September 1, 2008 at 20:55

    @ Colleen
    I really do believe all parents want what best for their kids, but it’s beyond me how some justify what’s best for them (especially politically) best for their kids.

    @ Amy and Julie
    Sexual scandals are not unique to the GOP and dems have their very shameful share of scandals, too. The GOP are such easy targets, because of their hypocrisy with their narrow view of “family values” and their condemning morals from the high horses that they preach on.

  28. 30 Amy
    September 1, 2008 at 21:02


    Do you know many 17 year old girls that are planning on getting married? Most of them are worrying about their senior year old high school, looking at colleges (or vocational schools), etc. not picking out china patterns. And as Jessica stated above, the GOP makes themselves easy targets because they are very quick to condemn and sit on a very high horse. When they fall, it does become interesting. The same is true for any public figure.

  29. 31 Julie P
    September 1, 2008 at 21:03

    Allegedly Coat Hanger McCain and Palin aren’t as pro-American as they make themselves out to be.

    Palin is currently in the middle of a controversial gas pipeline project in Alaska. She’s favored the ‘Trans Canada’ proposal that will run the pipeline through Canada, in effect shipping US jobs over the border. Many Alaskans, including former governors, have favored the “All Alaska Route”.

  30. 32 Colleen
    September 1, 2008 at 21:06

    @ shirley

    well this whole situation just proves that teaching abstinence may not be the only method of discussing sex with teens. it’s clear that this preganacy was not planned and that it is leading to a shot-gun wedding. if an extreme conservative like palin cannot instill the idea of abstinance until marriage to her own children, how can she and the rep party think that this is the only way to discuss sex with teens? the counter argument of the democratic party is proven by the real-life situation of palin. it is great that she is having the baby, but maybe it wouldve been better if she had at least been taught about or given the opportunity to use contraception in the first place.

  31. 33 Venessa
    September 1, 2008 at 21:15

    Of course Palin’s daughter is keeping the baby and getting married. Although her teachings against sex before marriage didn’t work perhaps her pro-life stance did.

  32. 34 Dennis
    September 1, 2008 at 21:20

    @ Amy:
    i hope you are feeling better…

    @ Will:
    Happy Birthday….

    @ Lubna:
    Thanks for you kind words…my first class is on 9/2/2008…..

    @ the Republican part convention:
    it is sad that the party had to be condensed because of the storm 😦


  33. 35 Amy
    September 1, 2008 at 21:23



  34. 36 Julie P
    September 1, 2008 at 21:27

    Happy Birthday, Will! Hugs and kisses!

  35. 37 Julie P
    September 1, 2008 at 21:30

    Who wants an 18 pound cat? He thinks he’s a lap cat and he’s crushing my legs!

  36. 38 Venessa
    September 1, 2008 at 21:31

    Julie ~

    I would take him but I already have 2 my husband is allergic to….

  37. 39 Amy
    September 1, 2008 at 21:32

    Sorry Julie, our cat has been on a diet and we finally have him down to 16 1/2 lbs. (from almost 23 lbs.)

  38. 40 Julie P
    September 1, 2008 at 21:34

    @Venessa and Amy,

    I’m not giving him away. We’re kind of attached. He’s just so heavy, but not fat, and LOVES my lap. To him there is nowhere better in the world to be.

  39. September 1, 2008 at 21:35

    @ Julie P:
    Allegedly Coat Hanger McCain and Palin aren’t as pro-American as they make themselves out to be.

    They’re republican, you can’t get more pro-American than that. John Stewart actually did a rather amusing rant about this, lol.

  40. 42 Julie P
    September 1, 2008 at 21:38


    They seem to think they’ve invented it, haven’t they.

    Do you have a link to John Stewart’s routine, or is it available on YouTube?

  41. September 1, 2008 at 21:40

    @ Colleen:
    it is great that she is having the baby, but maybe it wouldve been better if she had at least been taught about or given the opportunity to use contraception in the first place.

    Hit the nail on the head. Unfortunately, it seems most parents who preach no sex before marriage live in a fantasy world thinking that if they preach it, the kids will follow. They further the blunder and thus compound the problem by denying their children access to contraception or adequate education.

  42. September 1, 2008 at 21:46

    @ Julie: Here is one of his mentionings around the mid-late portion on the clip. The clip is a talk about Michelle Obama; It’s more mocking the scrutiny on her, but mentions the republican – democrat patriotism thing lol.

  43. September 1, 2008 at 21:48

    @ Amy:
    Quite honestly, I don’t think that Bristol Palin probably had much of a choice…. she may not have even been allowing to take part in the discussion at at.

    I’m willing to bet that with near absolute certainty, no matter what she says.

  44. 46 Jessica in NYC
    September 1, 2008 at 21:50

    @ Julie,

    It’s not on youtube with the **** viacom lawsuit against youtube none of comedy central videos are listed, but (I think) you can view it on comedy central’s webpage.

  45. 47 Venessa
    September 1, 2008 at 21:52


    Haha! You posted almost verbatim what I was typing: because living in a fantasy world that people will save themselves for marriage is much better….but then again perhaps Palin’s daughter wanted to be a teenage mother.

    When are people going to realize that their value systems don’t line up with everyone else? The reality is programs need to be put in place that are best for the majority, not the morally superior few that have so little to hide……

  46. 48 Julie P
    September 1, 2008 at 21:52

    Good one, Brett! I’m going to sending that one all over.!

  47. September 1, 2008 at 21:53

    @ Jessica:

    It’s been up on Youtube for a few days now. Better hurry up and view it before its put down then. I just finished watching it… Twice 😉

  48. 50 Dan
    September 1, 2008 at 21:55

    How about if we talk about……….
    We all know how many US Soldiers have died in Iraq but do we know how many have been injured.
    How many have lost their limbs and need physical therapy? How many need emotional therapy
    What has been done to clean up Walter Reed Army Hospital and the entire VA Hospital system?
    Are these men just there to be fed in Bush’s meat grinder and is Bush unconcerned what comes out?

  49. 51 Amy
    September 1, 2008 at 21:57

    I’m very sad about this… I was fortunate to have him as a professor while at USC:


  50. September 1, 2008 at 22:01

    @ Dan:
    I think it was 1 in 3 suffers some sort of mental issues after returning, PTSD including. But I’m not sure if that was short term, long term, only those who sought help, or what. Theres tons of differing figures out there.
    I know that every single one of my friends who have gone and came back are completely different. And not for the better. Over half of them suffer from PTSD and about a quarter suffer from flashbacks. To my knowledge only one of them was harmed physically. Nearly all of them drink much more than they used to.

  51. September 1, 2008 at 22:01

    Oh, by all means talk about Sarah Palin. Do it in relation to how much experience
    did Harry Truman have in foreign relations when he was picked by the Roosevelt.

    How much did any V.P. have when they took over for a slain President or a sick one who died in office.

    Would a Democrate have lied about the pregnancy of a young daughter and or had the thing murdered and hushed up? Or, would they be like Sarah and be honest and straight forward and tell the vetting crew that she has problems she is dealing with like all people do. She is even more impressive by not hiding it and life in general.


    on the Oregon coast

  52. 54 Julie P
    September 1, 2008 at 22:06


    McCain did not even meet her until the Wednesday before. I live in the south, the heart of the Bible Belt, and all I am hearing is what a lousy choice she was, and how he did not do a thorough job vetting her. This is from the core of the RP, not me.

  53. 55 Amy
    September 1, 2008 at 22:12


    If Palin were as straight forward as you claim, why wasn’t this out there before today? I really think it is a case of trying to hide it underneath all the hurricane coverage. While she may very well have told the McCain camp about the pregnancy, not getting it out in front of the story looks like a cover up at worst and an inept attempt of hide and seek at best.

    I hope you don’t have too much cloud cover at the coast. We have lots here in the Willamette Valley and a fear you have much more…. maybe even rain 😦

  54. September 1, 2008 at 22:17

    @ Sarah Palin’s daughter, I have being listening to the WHYS podcast of June 20 2008 (Glasgow Special), in the intro Ros said: “Are teenage pregnancies a necessarily a bad idea, many people are so quick to dismiss having children so young. But if the circumstances are right why not give birth when it’s safest for mother and baby … Plenty to talk about and you are already doing so at worldhaveyoursay.com “

  55. 57 Shirley
    September 1, 2008 at 22:21

    Some excellent points are being raised about Palin and her daughter’s situation. Colleen’s point especially struck me. You said, This whole situation just proves that teaching abstinence may not be the only method of discussing sex with teens. Our politicians too often forget that not everyone follows the same religion as they do or agrees with their moral values. To legislate based on one’s own beliefs when that same legislation will affect people of all beliefs is to ignore some of the most basic values of democracy.

    Those who raise the issue of hypocrisy have an excellent point: abstinence-only did not work in the Palin household.

    I also think that there are many cases in which the strength of a person’s emotional attachment to his beliefs often results in a household that simply does not talk about the kinds of pressures that the young people in it are facing.

  56. 58 Jessica in NYC
    September 1, 2008 at 22:36

    @ Troop

    The issues is not abortion, it seems like that is being trotted out to make a justification for the cover-up of the pregnancy. Abortion is something anyone here has said she should have, we’re saying her moral high-horse Sara needs to get off her moral high horse and be a parent. The issue we’re discussing is Sex-Education and the failures of Abstinence ONLY programs.

    The GOP has made a hypocritical issue of how important “experience” is and even have the audacity to claim Palin has more of it. So, it is an issue that Palin, potential president advocates for something 1) doesn’t work 2) failed at in her own household and 3) she tried to cover up and is now forcing marriage for her own political gain.

    There are plenty of qualified GOP women to hold the post of VP on the McCain ticket, such as Kay Bailey Hudson. Unfortunately, camp McCain were too busy attacking Obama on issues of national security and foreign policy to noticed their double standards and selected a VP was grossly unqualified.

  57. 59 Dan
    September 1, 2008 at 22:46

    I wonder what resources have been made available for them or are just thrown away by this President.

  58. September 1, 2008 at 22:49

    @ Palin,

    Man that fact that some political mechanism would even “dangle the baby” like this is infuriating. The part about her having a teenaged pregnant daughter and herself a 3 month old Down Syndrome baby at home further exemplifies her and McCains poor decision making skills. I don’t care which parent, but somebody needed to be home in that trailer park. (Has anybody mention the names of her children yet. again more a reflection on character and decision making then an important issue.) If somebody had been around for her daughter, She might not have sought acceptance elsewhere.

    Palin herself tries for three elections to get herself elected to governor. Then she goes and gets pregnant. She does it at 44, with 4 children already. Let us say it was an unexpected thing. “Putting country first” means looking at your situation and choosing to do what is right for your constituents even if that means you giving up your cushy new elected position. So which is it, Is she a good mother or a good leader. The situation she is in she can’t be both.

  59. 61 Roberto
    September 1, 2008 at 22:51

    RE Bristol Palin

    ——– I would think there are thousands of more important issues than a 17 yr old girl involved in a private family matter.

    The usual suspects savaged young teenaged Chelsea by calling her a dog, savaged the Bush twins when they are busted for underaged drinking, and now beating on the latest helpless underaged target.

    As long as people choose to live by the toilet, they shouldn’t complain of the stink of their politics.

  60. September 1, 2008 at 22:54

    @ experience.

    My wife has been a secretary for 8 years for the same place. She occasionally gets an itch to apply for some other job. When forming her resume, we highlight her “executive experience.”

    You can name all of the other examples where “experience” lacked. Many may not be experienced in Washington. But the skill sets and the experience you get being a Lawyer and passing the bar, Doctor, mass public speaking, Negotiating million dollar land contracts, or running multi million dollar businesses are what they call in the government, “substitutable experience.” Competing in a beauty pageant, debating where to put a moose crossing, and shooting a bear are not “substitutable experience.”

    The concept of this being our Champion against Hummus, Saudi Arabia, Russia, or even Georgia (the state or the country) is preposterous. With all of the other Republican women, many wanted Condi to run, this was McCains pick? We have seen how powerful the position of VP could be.

  61. 63 Jessica in NYC
    September 1, 2008 at 22:58

    @ Roberto

    LOL– Good points. I’m going to borrow the line, “As long as people choose to live by the toilet, they shouldn’t complain of the stink of their politics.”

  62. 64 Jessica in NYC
    September 1, 2008 at 23:04

    @ Dwight from Cleveland

    That is the point isn’t it!? If I had a new born and one with down syndrome I would not be putting politics before my family.

    The has completely blown up on the GOP’s face. I can’t believe they vetted her so poorly.

  63. 65 Amy
    September 1, 2008 at 23:09


    If you think that I am attacking Bristol, I apoligize. It is her hypocritical mother that I am attacking 🙂 Having once been a 17 year old girl, I know what it is like. I am also now a mother to two girls. No matter what their school teaches (or doesn’t teach) about sex, I will make sure to have a conversation about taking precautions. Sure, I hope they wait until marriage, but I am realistic. Bottom line, teens are going to have sex.

    Another thing to think about…. what is the legal age of consent in Alaska? How old is the father? Just wanted to put that out there.

    I’m stepping out for a little while but look forward to catching up soon.

  64. September 1, 2008 at 23:10

    Hey WHYS Gang, i have been MIA for the past two days. My mom is seriously ill. I have used my free time to be with her. @ Palin’s teen daughter pregnancy. It is easier to preach morals than to practice it.

  65. September 1, 2008 at 23:13

    Many so called moralists are usually busy chatising others about immorality that it creeps into their household unnoticed.

  66. 68 Julie P
    September 1, 2008 at 23:28


    What;s wrong with your mom?

  67. 69 Dan
    September 1, 2008 at 23:30

    RE: Palin’s 17 yr old Daughter.
    Why was it that Jimmy Carter’s Daughter and Bill Clinton’s Daughter were off limits but you all feel so wonderful about ripping up Palin’s Daughter?
    Is it your superior morals or is it that she has a Republican Mother and it is OK to hate loathe and despise any Republican and tear up their lives.
    How would you like your own children dragged thru the mud of a public national anal exam? Let it go…there are better things to discuss.

  68. September 1, 2008 at 23:31

    @ Jessica,

    Vetted might not be the right word they were looking for. This is the part that scares. Like I said a week or so ago. I made up a purposely designed web using the CNN template. It read as if it were a real interview with John McCain in which he spat in the face every major conservative value. He said he thought abortion should be legal, wanted illegal immigrants to have the same freedoms as the rest of America, and even said that he would take away their beloved guns. I sent it to many of my conservative friends. All of them will not hesitate to forward anything bad about Obama, so I know they know how. 8 of them wrote back with something along the lines of, “well they both are bad choices, but McCain is the better of the two.” The rest never mentioned it.

    There is an element of the voting public that have decided that they will not have a black man as president and then just rectify their own prejudice to meet that requirement. Looking over the full economic models and trends, we can’t handle another 4 years even of getting nothing done.

  69. 71 Jessica in NYC
    September 1, 2008 at 23:31

    @ Amy

    You don’t have to apologize, you did not attack Palin’s daughter. We are discussing the merits of her ability to be a VP and potential president. As Roberto put it “As long as people choose to live by the toilet, they shouldn’t complain of the stink of their politics.”

    The issue is and never was for me the 17 year old daughter, but the policies that this women would influences and effect millions of people here in the US and internationally, since so much aide is now tied into countries being abstinence only.

    @ Dwight from Cleveland re: experience.

    You’re absolutely right, “substitutable experience” is mandatory. We can’t have it both ways as you said competing in a beauty pageant, debating where to put a moose crossing, and shooting a bear are not substitutable experience. LOL

  70. 72 Jennifer
    September 1, 2008 at 23:35

    @ Will

    I am very interested in hearing about all of the Sara Palin scandals you know of. I only heard that her daughter was pregnant; which has nothing to do with Palin herself. Please do mention them and I will look them up.

    @ Colleen

    It’s very interesting that you believe that Palin is an “extreme conservative”. Please tell me where you found that information as it goes directly against what I have read of her and everything I have heard about her. She is a Republican but like Democrats there are varying degrees of beliefs and she is definitely not an extreme conservative. She’s given tax breaks, raised taxes for oil companies, veto’d bills that would have banned benefits for homosexuals.

    Of course Sara Palin wants the best for her daughter. At the same time, did she teach her daughter about the ramifications of having unprotected sex? I am sure she did. That only goes so far when ultimately, her daughter had to take responsibility for her actions and decisions. I am 23 years old, I am NOT married, and I am a virgin. It’s not a fantasy world; it’s a CHOICE I made and I have stuck with my convictions.


    Cover up? Palin released a statement along with her husband regarding her daughter. If Palin’s daughter makes the choice to keep her baby; that is her choice. If she wants to marry; that is her choice too. I am having a hard time seeing where Palin “failed in her household”. What was she supposed to do? Go on every date with her daughter? A parent can talk until they are blue in the face but teenagers are going to make their own choices. Republicans favor not using birth control because they advocate waiting for marriage to have sex. There is nothing wrong with offering this choice.

    I realize that people are going to try to find fault with any nominee, including Palin, in an attempt to discredit her but I fail to see where the fact that her daughter is having a baby makes Palin a bad mother or a bad VP nominee choice in any way. Just a bunch of drama filled crap!:) Makes me glad to know I am not so small minded that’s I’d feed into something like that!

  71. September 1, 2008 at 23:39

    @ Shirley, I am in full “rant mode” on the blog over this dangerous political game. If you would like, I can post stuff for you. then the 4 and a half people that read the blog will be able to see it. lol.

  72. 74 Julie P
    September 1, 2008 at 23:52

    Is anyone watching the Obama rally online? There is a woman speaking on there right now whose, if it were any more grating, she would break all of the glass in my house!

  73. 75 Bryan
    September 1, 2008 at 23:53

    Goodness, people, reading this thread I thought I’d wandered by mistake into the official blog for the Democrats. I guess it’s unsurprising though, since this is a BBC blog and the ‘impartial’ BBC has proven, without a doubt, its wholehearted support for the Democrats and its withering contempt for the Republicans.

    Slow down a bit. The daughter is pregnant and suddenly Sarah Palin is a hypocrite, an unfit mother and has to choose between motherhood and the VP position? And what’s this about lack of support for her among Republicans? Republican blogs have consistently been singing her praises and congratulating McCain on his choice. Is the revelation about the pregnancy really likely to change this?

    From what I’ve read about her, Sarah Palin appears to be a gutsy, honest and highly competent individual. And McCain, of course, is a highly courageous man who withstood torture. Both have a true love for their country.

    And who is the opposition? A man who counts anti-white racists and terrorists among his friends and colleagues, wont visit wounded US troops and shuns the American flag. And a VP candidate who is soft on Iran:


    But OK, you guys all go and vote for the Obama bin Biden team. But it will be a dark day indeed for America if they win:


  74. 76 Bryan
    September 2, 2008 at 00:10

    Help. Can a mod please fish my post (with links) out of the spam pond?

  75. 77 Jessica in NYC
    September 2, 2008 at 00:14

    @ Dwight from Cleveland

    This is the essencial of the big division in our country that happen aftter Bush took office. The GOP stop pretending who their consituients were anyone but the rich ultra conservative. There are many many prejudice in this country and some will continue to be driven my race. I agree we can’t handle another 4 years even of getting nothing done. I think Obama is doing everything he can to deal with the current trends and demonstrate that the current economic model is not working. But I am concern that democrats cannot fight the same dirty fight GOP does and win with the message of change.

    @ Jeniifer
    Palin did so after the scandal broke, but that’s an irrelevant to your argument, isn’t it? My post was incomplete, but I believed she failed her household at teaching them the morals she tries to hold the rest of the country accountable to. Statistics have shown young people who have sex-education have much lower rates of getting pregnant. That is the point, to advocate for abstinence ONLY is not offering a choice like you claim. If you want to remain a virgin until marriage good for you for those who don’t they should be protected and know what their options are, that is the CHOICE decorates advocate.

  76. 78 Bryan
    September 2, 2008 at 00:16

    Jennifer September 1, 2008 at 11:35 pm,

    That’s a great comment. I agree with every word.

  77. 79 Venessa
    September 2, 2008 at 00:16

    Well said Jessica, I completely agree.

  78. 80 Jessica in NYC
    September 2, 2008 at 00:19

    @ Bryan

    It’s the same discussion that span out for weeks on the BBC blog about Obama’s being american enough, Obama making the right choice in selecting Biden, in Obama shunning Clinton and so on. Now the tables are turned and the sport light is on the republicans.

  79. September 2, 2008 at 00:22

    @ Jenifer,

    There have been a few. two of which I have not got a second confirming and reputable source. So for now they will stay in the back burner. The Main one is “Trooper Gate” as it has been dubbed by the news media. Within 6 months of taking office she has come under investigation for firing her safety director for not firing her sisters ex-husband. 6 months is a record by any republican standards.

    The definition of “extreme” varies. Being a member of the NRA, anti gay rights, pro gun rights, anti abortion, and anti constitutional rights is in many people book, “extreme right”. Mine included. And I consider myself one. the good of the country must come before the individual and trivial issues.

    @ the Gay rights bill. She “vetoed”. The anti-Gay partnership bill was “reluctantly rejected, not because she didn’t believe it was right to reject gay partner benefits, but because, “on the advice of her new attorney general who said it is unconstitutional.” Signing this bill would be in direct violation of my oath of office,”. So it wasn’t that she didn’t agree with it, she just knew it would get knocked down, or rather her attorney did.

    @ Taxes,

    OH BOY!! you mean the governor of a state in this economy whose main source of industry is OIL want to both raise taxes on oil producers and drill for more!! that is truly profound. That would be like every Ohio governor, democrat and republican, raising prices on steel and auto manufactures!! Bold, almost Maverick of her.

    Now did those oil companies suck that increased tax up on their own and take cuts to their paychecks?

    @ Covering it up,
    “McCain aides said the announcement was aimed at rebutting Internet rumors that Palin’s youngest son, born in April, was actually her daughter’s.”

    That means that had the rumor not surfaced, it would not have been brought up. A rumor that still has merit, but again unconfirmable as of yet.

    It is a proven fact that parents who are distracted by involving careers are twice as likely to have children who become teen parents. However, Jennifer, welcome to the democratic party, here is your Obama sign, and supporters of increase public service including sexed are seated right over there —>

  80. 82 Julie P
    September 2, 2008 at 00:23


    The thing about Republicans is the it is more than okay to flog the Democrats, but when the tables are turned, then cry foul. They can dish it out, but they cannot take it.

  81. 83 Venessa
    September 2, 2008 at 00:32

    Jessica ~ having moral character only matters for the dems…..We already nkow republicans have the monopoly on better morals…..

  82. 84 Jessica in NYC
    September 2, 2008 at 00:38

    @ Dwight to Jennifer

    RE Palin’s investigation.

    Don’t forget the waste of money that has been spent and continue to cost taxpayers for Palin’s inability to hold up to the oath she took when elected as governor on such a trivial personal matter.

    Copied from news:
    Gov. Sarah Palin’s own legislature launched a $100,000 investigation earlier this month, as the Associated Press reported, “to determine if Palin dismissed Alaska’s public safety commissioner because he would not fire (a state) trooper, Mike Wooten. Wooten went through a messy divorce from Palin’s sister. Palin has denied the commissioner’s dismissal had anything to do with her former brother-in-law. And she denied orchestrating the dozens of telephone calls made by her husband and members of her administration to Wooten’s bosses.

    Oh yeah right, tax payers should trust this politician with a selective moral conduct of the do-as-I-say-not-as-I-do cup cake politics. The days of not questioning our leaders and potential ones are over. Descent is patriotic.

  83. 85 Dan
    September 2, 2008 at 01:02

    Obama v. McCain
    It is fascinating that the discussion is either about how much dirt can be dragged up here on the WHYS blog or people see Obama performing miracles. No one can name any solid program that Obama has proposed in detail. It is all “vaporware”.
    Truly I am undecided as yet. Bush has ruined the Republican Party and I am leery of another 4 do nothing years but neither do I want higher taxes and every foreign policy decision deferred to the UN, an anti-American organization of fat old men that do nothing but blather while people die.

  84. September 2, 2008 at 01:13

    oh you have to see this.


    lol, Scott calling his wife “Ms. Whale Blubber.” lol Right there in the bedroom of his trailer. LOL. You also get a sense of how Bristol was shown who was the boss. This, is one heart beat away from the “First Family.”

    “Does Daddy like that Mommy’s a mayor? No. Daddy don’t like that. Daddy and Mommy said that she would go on the city council and make some extra money and get some health care. But now Daddy’s starting to feel … inadequate.” – Scott Palin. Wonder how he feels now. Obama could have gotten them good health care.

  85. 87 Amy
    September 2, 2008 at 01:38


    You gotta love technology!! LOL.

  86. 88 Etson
    September 2, 2008 at 01:42

    I have no admiration for the Republicans. However, I don’t think we should be laying onto Bristol and her pregnancy.
    What really pisses me off though is the fact that Palin will expose her family to all the potential negative scrutiny and intrusion, all to further poliltical ambitions.
    Think about it, this poor 17 year old girl is now the subject of discussions about unmarital sexual relations and a resultant pregnancy. It is difficult, given what Palin and the Republican party supposedly stand for, if the whole of Alaska were to know. But not that! The entire US–indeed the whole world now knows that there is a disconnect between what they supposedly stand for and reality.
    What is even more dispicable is the attempt to spin, to smooth over that “sexual” issue with talks of “we are proud she is keeping the baby” and “they are going to get married.” The latter two are not the issue.
    My wife and me have a little girl who is turning 2 years in a few days (my wife is a teacher by profession). And she is wishing she could not work altogether and be home to raise our little girl. But here is a woman who was only too eager to return to work 3 or so days after her infant was born. What? She is governor for Christ’s sake, couldn’t she have taken at least a few weeks? Here is a woman who doesn’t seem to put a high enough premium on the privacy and psychological security of her family. I tell you, it beats me!

  87. 89 Amy
    September 2, 2008 at 01:45


    Would you car to explain this: “and terrorists among his friends and colleagues”? What terrorist are Obama’s friends and colleagues? Are you saying that the dems he works with are terrorists? I know where you were going with the anti-white racist thing and that has been hashed out many times here. I’d really like to know who the terrorist friends are. And just because Obama doesn’t always wear a flag pin does not mean he “shuns” the American flag (oh, by the way, the whole plane thing is bunk – he was covering up the American Airlines logo)

  88. 90 Dennis
    September 2, 2008 at 01:46


    What’s wrong with your mom?


  89. 91 Dennis
    September 2, 2008 at 01:48

    @ Amy:

    are you feeling better, my dear friend…


  90. September 2, 2008 at 01:56


    You must add for the slower members of the community that, American, “not wanting to show allegiance to either party” required him to cover their “trademark”. The funny part is that if you look at the email that came around with the pictures, McCains plane hasn’t a flag on it either.

    This is quickly becoming a campaign of the trivial. However, Please make sure our assertions have validity before we try and connect them to a “moral indignity”

  91. 93 jamily5
    September 2, 2008 at 01:59

    Happy Birthday Will, any celebration on the agenda?
    Sheikh, Tell us more about your mother’s condition.
    I hope that it improves soon.
    Amy, how are you feeling? Any news?

  92. 94 Jennifer
    September 2, 2008 at 02:06


    That’s so true. We are on the official Democrat blog it seems! Lord help me now! haha Actually, It’s fine with me. I find this discussion interesting because of all the drama people are making.


    Please refer to my previous post~of course a potential candidate is going to be the object of mudslinging! It doesn’t take away from Sarah Palin’s intelligence, experience, and her ability to REALLY make change for the U.S. The trooper claim is old news! Palin has stated she did nothing wrong. Until I hear different from a CREDIBLE source; I am taking that as truth.

    I am a Social Worker and have a BSW degree. My mom is a registered nurse, RN/BSN and works for a Children’s first program for the state. The program was created by David Olds. Please do a google search for it and Nurse/Family partnership and you can find out more information about it. It is based on 30 years of experience and research. He found that children born of parents who graduated high school, went on to college, and who work had and raised children that had fewer illnesses, fewer trips to the ER, where more emotionally stable, fewer run-ins with the law, lower risk for substance abuse, fewer teenage pregnancies, and grew up themselves to value education and seek to obtain it themselves. College Education = professional careers= a life out of poverty.

    The majority of my mom’s clients come from economically disadvantaged dysfunctional homes where one of the parents or both in some cases do not and have never held down a job in their lives. Their parents are mostly high school drop-outs or with no more than a high school education. Her clients range in age from 12-19 years of age. The majority of her clients have experienced some form of abuse whether it be physical, emotional, or sexual abuse. .

    I will politely take your Obama sign and conveniently loose it whenever possible! 😀 I don’t want false promises but thanks anyway.

    @Julie P.

    I am taking your comment as being indirectly at me. Please correct me if I am wrong. In any case, the Democrats are just desperate to get back in the limelight in any way possible. It’s a pathetic attempt to regain some of their approval because they were upstaged by the fact that McCain chose a female running mate. But, it doesn’t bother me. Anyone who is intelligent has the sense to take it at face value for what it is: bullcrap. The facts remain: Obama STILL has less experience and is giving people false promises! Good luck with getting universal health care, tax breaks, and etc with our failing economy. But, maybe Obama will take a pay cut or Oprah can donate some $$ for it!

    I am a Democrat but I also know that I am not so stupid as to stick within party lines if I feel that my own party with not make the changes that will benefit our country. I don’t think anyone should have a problem taking heat if they dish it out. With regards to anything I have said, I welcome you to discuss because I enjoy talking about this election.


    I am sure that the statistics you found to validate the fact that sex education makes a difference to teenagers are great. I could find some to support the fact that it doesn’t If I looked as well. If sex education and having “choices” like birth control made a difference, then why do we have so many children being born? Not all people in the U.S. are Republicans, right? Speaking of choices, birth control is given away FREE to young girls no matter their age at any health department in Oklahoma without a parent’s knowledge or consent. Pretty spiffy, huh? 🙂

    Let’s talk about wasted money shall we? How about money for all of those abortions you want to allow to occur freely? I don’t mean the cost of the medical procedure really but the cost of a child’s life? There are infertile couples, gay/lesbian couples, etc, that would love to have a child. But, I guess you can erase a baby like you’d erase a mistake on a piece of paper, right? People should not be responsible for their actions right? If that’s the case why use any form of birth control when abortion is so available to you? Make a mistake? That’s ok-just have an abortion! I tell you what, you just wait until you are 8 months gestation then decide to terminate your pregnancy when your child can successfully live outside the body on his or her own and live a life. That’ a nice choice to have, isn’t it.

    Speaking of my personal choice, yes, it’s a choice I made for myself by myself. It wasn’t forced by my parents and I wouldn’t say it’s an “easy choice” but I am very proud of myself for various reasons regarding it. I don’t get on a soapbox, I don’t do it for approval, it’s just what I choose to do for me.

  93. 95 Amy
    September 2, 2008 at 02:08

    Dennis and Jamily,

    Thank you so much for your concern. I am feeling a little better (the antibiotic seems to be working) and hopefully the CT scan tomorrow will tell if I need surgery to remove the gall bladder. Luckily, my family is great and letting me rest and giving me lots of hugs 🙂 Once I have more information, I’ll let you know.

  94. 96 jamily5
    September 2, 2008 at 02:08

    About sex-ed,
    On this issue, I want to be the one talking to my daughter about sex-ed. C’mon, do we really believe that Palin’s daughter did not know about contraception? It’s out there and everyone knows about it… … well, most.
    I don’t want schools giving my children condoms and/or other contraception. that’s my job and no one’s pregnant yet.
    Parents can opt out of sex-ed for their children (at least in some schools here) and I think that this is a good idea. Afterall, when the children do get to opt out, then, the parents have to sign a permission slip. I agree that parents need to talk with their children about sex and what the choices that are out there.
    I preach no sex before marriage.
    But, I also taught my children about aids, STDs and many other things.
    Just because parents preach abstinence does not mean that we are naive.
    It means that we have values that are contrary to most of society and yes, my children and I talked about this frequently.
    My children knew/know about contraception, but they knew/know that I value sex after marriage. They knew/know that I would not be happy with their decision to have premarital sex.
    Many parents who don’t want schools giving children contraceptives, etc, don’t because they feel as if the schools are giving their children permission to do something that is in direct contrast with their values.
    I am always surprised at what people want schools to teach and not to teach.
    It usually has nothing to do with liberal or republican, but one’s own personal values.
    I recognize that government and schools and other public institutions that my children come into contact with have different values than I do.
    It is only a matter of time before my children will be exposed to those values.
    I try to help them keep the values that I hold dear, yet respect the values of others.
    That is hard for children — and even adults to do.

  95. 97 jamily5
    September 2, 2008 at 02:09

    Julie P. and Jessica,

    I’ve got a 75pound dog, if you want to switch.
    He is not a lap dog, but would be, if you let him.

  96. 98 jamily5
    September 2, 2008 at 02:10

    @Dwight and others:
    I don’t always agree with Dwight,
    That was a particularly good line.

  97. 99 Amy
    September 2, 2008 at 02:12


    I will be thinking of you and your mother and sending good thoughts your way.

  98. 100 Marty Lee
    September 2, 2008 at 02:23

    Dear friends,

    The USA conduct the most interesting election campaign fit for world consumption and akin to the hollywood tradition, every bit of it is pure entertainment and certainly, an expensive indulgence.

    Why don’t both parties slug it out like superbowl once and for all, and not to have the whole election process stretch over over so darn long ?

    Either parties win, the citizens will still be ending up losing as the true seat of power of the presidency could be hijacked by the lobbyist and “special” interest group who are pure opportunist who are providing the funds to fuel the prolong, grueling and expensive election campaign.

    Yes, we know it now, how american brand of democracy works now. Its oiled by the money and powered by sheer hokum and media razzle dazzle.

    I think the aftermath of the elections and readings would be critical to how Americans feel about themselves.

    Either men wins, the divide and polarisation will deepen the fault lines that divides America.

    We have in this election, black vs white. How black is black and how white is white. How conservative is conservative. Men vs women candidates. How liberal is liberal. Older vs younger candidates, gosh the list goes on.

    In every election, such fault lines are emphasize for the sake of winning an election and sometimes takes decades to heal…

  99. 101 Julie P
    September 2, 2008 at 02:26


    My male cat would have a huge jealous fit. My female cat, already hacked off over my bringing in my male cat, would would probably implode. As much as I like dogs, and I like them a lot, I am going to have to pass to keep peace in the house! 🙂

  100. 102 Julie P
    September 2, 2008 at 02:29

    @Marty Lee,

    If you want to learn how all of the negative campaigning started here is a link explaining.


    Also these disputes are how we got our two party system.

  101. 103 Marty Lee
    September 2, 2008 at 02:45


    Thanks and most poignant indeed…

    I have no idea that it stretches so far back in history.

    It was reported that the Republicans think they might have a shot at success.

    Hurricane Gustav actually presented Bush an excuse to skip the convention altogether, which gave them a better shot at presenting themselves since the polls suggest that Bush popularity is at an all time low.

    How is the mood there now ? Are the folks debating with depth about their presidential choices ?

    Thanks and its always a pleasure to read your postings 🙂

  102. September 2, 2008 at 02:56

    Think FOX is not biased.

    two takes on the same story.

    This one is titled, “Some Turn Violent”


    The antiwar march was organized by a group called the Coalition to March on the RNC and Stop the War, whose leaders said they hoped for a peaceful, family-friendly event. But police were on high alert after months of preparations by a self-described anarchist group called the RNC Welcoming Committee, which wasn’t among the organizers of the march.

    The same story on FOX

    Titled “Anti-War Protest at GOP Convention Turns Violent”


    If you read way down it tells you that the anti-war protest went off with out incident. They made sure they cited the numbers that the protesters had hoped to get and opposed them to what they actually got. But most people wouldn’t read past the title.

  103. 105 Venessa
    September 2, 2008 at 03:04

    All ~

    The posts are getting a little long. Please keep them concise.


  104. 106 Dennis
    September 2, 2008 at 03:04

    @ Amy:
    I had to have my gall-bladder taken out in 2002….

    Remember a time ago: We were talking about this story, Nigerian guy married 80 plus woman!


  105. 107 Jessica in NYC
    September 2, 2008 at 03:05

    @ Sex scandals

    Hi people, I thought I was out for the night, but had to come back and tell you I was surfing the TV when I came across “Political Sex Scandals” show on E24 Channel. I thought, oh good god who did what now, but it’s not anything new. It’s a the top 25 political sex sandals with these men’s lies, denials, and very funny commentary, Including John Edwards hiding in the bathroom after his the story of his adultery affair became public. Check it out we have been slimy politicians fall off their pedestal from both sides of the aisle.


    That was absolutely Priceless! “Momma’s the mayor and Daddy is a fisherman– a fisherman and a moose hunter and I work on snow mobiles.”

    Here’s a funny incident for you. On the second day after the Spiter story broke in N Y, I was on my way home from work I saw a homeless man with a sign that read: I only need $4600 more to get a girl like Spiter. A man who reeked of alcohol and slept on the street, even he was taking shots at the disgraceful governor.

  106. 108 Shirley
    September 2, 2008 at 03:26

    Happy Birthday (belated), Will!

  107. 109 Shirley
    September 2, 2008 at 03:41

    Dwight, I clicked the AP news article that you linked, and this is what stood out at me: About 20 people dressed in black tried to block a key intersection. Police quickly dispersed the group, then shot two tear gas canisters at them as the fled.

    Of course, I immediately wanted to make a run for my red ink pen. What really bothers me, though, is the fact that the police continued to act against the activists even when they were clearly obeying orders to disperse. It’s a great way to aggravate people into escalated action, but not to calm a crowd on the verge of violence.

  108. 110 Julie P
    September 2, 2008 at 03:42

    @Marty Lee,

    We ‘re talking about the presidential race. It depends who I am talking to about it concerning depth. Some want to have an honest conversation about the common problems we share, others have already made up their minds and point to all kinds of ‘evidence’ as to why their candidate is going to win.

  109. 111 Amy
    September 2, 2008 at 03:42


    Hopefully I won’t need to have surgery but if I do, I might ask you some questions about the procedure since you have been through it.

    Good luck with your classes tomorrow!!

  110. 112 Pangolin- California
    September 2, 2008 at 03:43

    The reason that Sara Palin’s fifth child, or grandchild if you will, is world news is that a few months ago we were all arguing about how we were going to get food to all members of the human race. There’s too many people for our food systems to handle. Overpopulation? Remember?

    So the US president has a great deal of influence about how funds for contraception and family planning are spent. If Sara Palin becomes president her judgement on these issues has proven to be abysmal.

    Just for starters all the kings horses and all the kings men cannot find any photographic evidence that Sara Palin was ever pregnant with her fifth child in a state where pregnancy is a major bragging point among local women. There are more than a few pictures where Bristol looks pregnant. Since we are talking politics there is no reason to believe that Bristol is pregnant now (watch for the tragic miscarraige) or that she couldn’t be pregnant for the second time.

    This lady is applying for the car keys to half the worlds nuclear weapons. Nothing, absolutely nothing, should be off limits.

  111. September 2, 2008 at 03:46

    Concerning the pregnancy of Palin’s daughter, this should be a family matter. It was known that Bill Clinton’s brother was keen on drinking. This didn’t affect the image of the president. It was his own sexual relations that put him in trouble.
    In the end, the Republicans should decide for the Republican policies and not whether the daughter of a VP candidate is right or wrong in being pregnant at the age of 17.

    Even the Democrats were smart by considering this as family matters. Obama himself said that families were off-limits.
    If voters take Palin’s daughter as a national issue, then the campaign will veer from its principles and become about a mother and a daughter, which will surely make people outside the USA laugh at the apparent naivety of the voters.

  112. 114 Colleen
    September 2, 2008 at 03:47

    @ dwight

    i was laughing out loud at many of your posts!!

  113. 115 Amy
    September 2, 2008 at 03:58

    Well, here is a new one about Sarah Palin…. she once was a member of the Alaskan Independence Party. She no longer is, but she did make a video address for their party convention…. this year! Since this group talks about a possibly seceding from the US (and maybe joining Canada) does this make her unpatriotic?


  114. 116 Amy
    September 2, 2008 at 04:11


    The reason why there is talk about Gov. Palin’s daughter is because her party is famous for trying to take the moral high ground and being the party of “family values.” They are the first group to jump all over an unmarried celebrity getting pregnant (think Jamie-Lynn Spears) but as soon as it is one of their own, it is a “flip flop” and they try to make it about abortion and praise the woman for having the baby. I don’t think anyone, at least on this blog, that has criticized Bristol Palin at all nor should they. Being a teenager is tough enough, being pregnant adds to the stress and then having your mother now in the worlds eye cannot be easy. Since this is no a new revelation to the Palin family, maybe all of the scrutiny Bristol is now under should have been thought of beforehand.

  115. 117 Roberto
    September 2, 2008 at 04:20

    Hmmm, a bogus utube video posted where a 6 yr old holds some old fart’s face in perfect frame while he rambles and hacks his spin on.

    I told everyone the PACS will be out in force, and on utube, they don’t even have to purchase time, the perfect ON THE CHEEEEEP medium.

    Coming next the “seminal” talk between Obama and Hillary.

    PT Barnum, who used to collect rubes for profit, famously uttered, “There’s a sucker born every minute.” Of course never proven and probably adulterated like many great myths.

    This cheeeep fare not even great myth, but, hey, hay is for horses and BS a simple course for some.

  116. 118 Etson
    September 2, 2008 at 04:39

    @ Amy
    You have said it well, and that was my point earlier. I can’t see why Sarah Palin did not shield her family from all this intrusion, knowing damm full well that she is yearsssss away from VP chair material.

  117. 119 Pangolin- California
    September 2, 2008 at 04:51

    Of course the easy way to make the whole issue of Sara Palin’s fifth child’s maternity go away is to declare that Bristol is five months pregnant. Ta-da, off limits. It’s not like high placed members of the GOP haven’t told some staggeringly large lies to the world before (weapons of mass destruction, cough, anthrax, cough, chemical weapons trailers) in order to promote their political schemes.

    This lady is as crooked as the day is long. Her hubby has a 50k job with British Petroleum that involves what duties? She’s connected to the Alaska Indpendence Party and I’ve read references to her involvement with Christian dominionists. So if you want a wolf-shooting, science denying, teen mom with a side of Christian fascism running the world go for it.

    How are those floods in India doing anyway?

  118. 120 Bob in Queensland
    September 2, 2008 at 04:59

    Hi All!

    I’m not overly worried about Palin’s pregnant daughter–things happen. However, I do wish politicians would quit harping on about morals and family values–it just sets them up for a fall when they or somebody in their family is proven to be human.

    Of greater concern to me is the fact that Palin was chair of the Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission while married to a manager from BP. Anyone care to say “conflict of interest”?

  119. 121 Etson
    September 2, 2008 at 05:09

    “conflict of interest”

  120. 122 Amy
    September 2, 2008 at 05:31


    I second Etson, Conflict of Interest

  121. 123 Shirley
    September 2, 2008 at 05:35

    Amy (#115 September 2, 2008 at 3:58 am): Well, here is a new one about Sarah Palin…. she once was a member of the Alaskan Independence Party. She no longer is, but she did make a video address for their party convention…. this year! Since this group talks about a possibly seceding from the US (and maybe joining Canada) does this make her unpatriotic?

    Oh my goodness that is the Constitution Party! Here is the Wikipedia Article about it. This is the AIP’s offical website.

    The Ballot access section of the Wikipedia article lists the membership of the Alaskan Independence Party as follows.

    The Constitution Party is on the ballot in the following states, as of January 4, 2007 [39]. Several state parties are still disaffiliated following the 2006 Tampa decision.
    Alaska (via endorsement of Alaskan Independence Party)

    Parts of the platform of the Constitution Party include drastically reducing the right of the government to tax the people, withdrawing from international organisations and international treaties, a more restrictive immigration policy, opposition to abortion and euthenasia, and the establishment of English as the official language of the U.S., with literacy tests as part of the process of voter registration. They also want to repeal the 17th Amendment, which provides for the direct election of U.S. Senators.

    These people scare me.

  122. 124 Amy
    September 2, 2008 at 05:47


    Exactly why I’m scared. Also, McCain only met her the Wednesday before he named her. So much for making sure you know your running mate.

  123. 125 Amy
    September 2, 2008 at 06:04


    I’m turning in for the night (big day tomorrow – school starts and a CT scan for me). Can you hold down the fort until Nelson arrives? Thanks!

  124. 126 Shirley
    September 2, 2008 at 06:07

    I know that this is more Wikipedia, but these articles are making fine jumping points from which one can learn more. Some deails of Todd Palin’s emplyment at BP are in his Wikipedia entry. Sarah Palin’s involvement on the Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission is mentioned in her Wikipedia entry.

    Thank you, Bob (aka HTML Link Fixing Guru)

  125. 127 Bob in Queensland
    September 2, 2008 at 06:16

    G’night Amy…yup I’m around and can keep an eye on things in amongst making “Lamingtons” with our 4 year old aspiring chef!

  126. 128 Bob in Queensland
    September 2, 2008 at 06:20

    Well, if the Wiki article is correct, then I owe them an apology. It says that Todd Palin stepped down from his management position when his wife became involved in oil industry regulation (though he still works for BP in an operational capacity).

  127. 129 Julie P
    September 2, 2008 at 06:20


    Don’t forget to mention this about Palin:

    “Palin is currently in the middle of a controversial gas pipeline project in Alaska. She’s favored the ‘Trans Canada’ proposal that will run the pipeline through Canada, in effect shipping US jobs over the border. Many Alaskans, including former governors, have favored the “All Alaska Route”.”

    If you want to read more about Alaskans think about her governorship read this:


  128. 130 Laura in Minneapolis
    September 2, 2008 at 06:37

    So i’m in Minneapolis right now… parking and traffic are a nightmare in both St. Paul and Minneapolis, but it is exciting, in a way. Lots of peaceful protests, besides several arrests. I think it is a little odd they chose St. Paul, a pretty liberal city (especially in conjunction with Minneapolis) for their convention- but Minnesota has become a swing state of sorts.

    Even if I don’t particularly agree with anything the republicans are talking about, it’s still great for the cities to have an extra 45000 (i think i heard it was that many) people going out to eat, shopping, debating, seeing our twin cities… etc. It’s exciting.

    Traffic still sucks though. 🙂

    Laura in Minneapolis

  129. September 2, 2008 at 06:44

    @ Amy,

    Especially beautiful was the scene there of the pregnant daughter standing there up on stage with a happy face on thrilled for her Mom. It must have been that the Mom really is a great Mom. Imagine the beliefs that the Mother and Father have.

    Then reality hits. Troubles in the family. The child with Downs syndrome, the pregnant daughter, the troubled sister and brother in law situation that also seems to be bearing down on Gov. Palin. These things just seem to happen sometimes.

    As I once told my young niece…getting pregnant and having a baby out of wedlock may not be a mistake when viewed from another point in time. Some women never get to have children. Right after my 20 year old niece got pregnant she was lured into the human trafficing trade. The entire sex slave problem soon became a thing that turned our entire family upside down and turned into another survival trip for me. My friend and NBC Dateline went after the slave traders to get my young niece back. NBC did a fair show about the situation and aired it around the world. The rescue took place in Malaysia and the niece was Philippino. We got her back from the Chinese Slave Traders and I told her this will all be just a funny story that you will one day tell your grand kids.

    Anyway it is nice to know that there is enough is enough love and wise management within the family, that with all the staunch beliefs the kids come first and they can stick together and support each other when things just go a bit off the deep end. Think again about how the family was all there up there and not at bad body language with each other. I think she is, Sarah Palin, a real genuine great person.

    Imagine how many ways this story with the loved daughter could have gone. She could have run away from home and gotten lured into the human trafficing route.
    She could have been brought down to the abortion clinic and all the other scenarios. I just heard Obama saying his own mother was just 18, gave birth to him. She may have been 17 when she got pregnant. There is a certain beauty in seeing the entire family there together.

    As far as weather here on the coast. Went out bow hunting for elk and ended up soaked to the bone fighting all the salmonberry entanglements and the terrain. could hardly move today what with sore muscles and a blister on the heal. I must have been quite a laugh from the elk’s perspective. In the brush I kept losing arrow heads and one arrow. I began to think the elks were setting me up leading me from nice trails into the brush to eventually ambush me in the thick brush where I just could not move it was so thick.

    troop on the rainy Oregon Coast….I love it out there though

  130. 132 Laura in Minneapolis
    September 2, 2008 at 06:51

    @ the Palin discussion…

    I don’t know how to feel about it yet. I think in light of her daughter’s pregnancy, it’ll be hard to stick with the “Abstinence Only is effective!” mantra while, if thats what she taught her own daughter… well it obviously didn’t work in this situation. I mean, i feel like she will stick with it, but it’ll all be a little… shady.

    One devil’s advocate question, perhaps an irrelevant one, but if Palin were a man… would there be as much as an uproar about this happening in their household? Or for that matter, about her having too many distractions (i.e. 5 kids, including a newborn and a grandchild on the way) to be vice president? The opptimist in me believes the same concerns would be raised is it were the father with these distractions… but I’m curious what you all think.

    Laura in Minneapolis

  131. September 2, 2008 at 07:06

    @ Sarah Palin

    McCain has chosen a Christian dominionist?


    I can’t wait for the debate now!

  132. 134 Bryan
    September 2, 2008 at 08:06

    Jessica in NYC September 2, 2008 at 12:19 am

    It’s the same discussion that span out for weeks on the BBC blog about Obama’s being american enough, Obama making the right choice in selecting Biden, in Obama shunning Clinton and so on. Now the tables are turned and the sport light is on the republicans.

    The BBC has two different spotlights. You can tell the Republican one by its harsh glare and the Democrat one by its gentle highlighting of the less worse profile.

    Amy September 2, 2008 at 1:45 am

    Would you car to explain this: “and terrorists among his friends and colleagues”?



    Dwight from Cleveland September 2, 2008 at 1:56 am,

    Obama has no feeling whatsoever for America. No pride in his country, no patriotism. He will do his utmost to hand America over to those who believe that all will be sweetness and light with no international boundaries. That should be evident by now. You want someone like that to be president? You guys are the ones who are being “slow” here. You are being conned.

    Jennifer September 2, 2008 at 2:06 am

    @ Bryan

    That’s so true. We are on the official Democrat blog it seems!

    And our esteemed colleagues are trying to imply that we were on a Republican blog here a while back. Funny, I never noticed that.

    Bob in Queensland September 2, 2008 at 6:20 am

    Well, if the Wiki article is correct, then I owe them an apology. It says that Todd Palin stepped down from his management position when his wife became involved in oil industry regulation (though he still works for BP in an operational capacity).

    Good for you Bob. While others are happy not to dig to deep as long as they can trash Sarah Palin, you are reading the material with your eyes open.

  133. 135 Bryan
    September 2, 2008 at 08:09

    Sorry, that should read, “….not to dig too deep…”

  134. 136 Bob in Queensland
    September 2, 2008 at 08:15

    Right bloggers….

    Another plea to keep your post length down–things are gettin’ mighty long round these parts again!

    Basically, if you have to scroll to read your post, it’s probably longer than Ros and the gang want!

    (Really I shouldn’t have approved a couple of recent offerings but not doing so makes work. Please contribute to my ambition to be a lazy, retired old git and keep the post lengths down! Thank you!)

  135. 137 Bryan
    September 2, 2008 at 08:22

    Here’s a talking point, guys:

    Should a news organisation that is funded by the public and committed by its charter to impartiality be energetically promoting the fortunes of one political party against another?

  136. 138 Marty Lee
    September 2, 2008 at 09:42


    Well, all this mudslinging and Private Investigative work and spin is going to climax somehow. You can feel it in the air.

    Boy, its going to get really ugly this time round. You get this feeling that Pailin was chosen because of her orthodoxy and because the Republicans calculated that there is a need to get the women’s vote on this one.

    It could be a matter of time thru sheer partisan pressure that Pailin’s pregnant daughter will be force to go on stage to give a speech telling the world how great her mommy is and she is standing behind her to have her keep her baby. You would know that the spindoctors of both parties are crafting their calculation on this issue and you are right on the money with this.

    Poor her. She’s just 17 and already the spin are splash across nationwide. Let’s hope the news reporter and the tabloids would leave her alone else, she could be force into deep depression. But we know the ways of the world don’t we ? The smell of blood is thick in the air. And I wonder how many Radio and TV talk shows would do a skeet on this one.

  137. 139 Bob in Queensland
    September 2, 2008 at 09:51

    Following on from the topic about whether there should be restrictions on where people live, Aussie TV has just showed some startling pictures of just how close New Orleans came to another disaster.

    Waves were lapping over the top of an appallingly flimsy levee and cracks were appearing everywhere. This was a Category 2 hurricane; what would have happened if Gustav had built to Category 5 as originally forecast?

    It’s worrying to me just how slipshod the flood defences are for a major city in the most powerful country in the world. Surely it’s time to either put sufficient money into REAL defences, to properly reclaim the land…or to stop trying to live in the area.

    We’re entering a period of climate change which will cause weather extremes. America can’t continue to paper over the cracks (literally) in New Orleans’ flood defences.

  138. 140 roebert
    September 2, 2008 at 11:04

    Re : John Steiner; I don’t think people are inherently racist. Multicultural intolerance is more likely to be the result of direct experience of living with one or another undesirable cultural or ‘lifestyle’ trait in a non-indigene culture. In that case, I’d say it’s very salutary to be honest, and even blunt, about the things that irk. How else will any kind of integration be encouraged? (Remember Pim Fortuyn?) It is high time to drop the enforced pc fronts and get to grips with the real public sentiment. The way it’s going now, with everyone lying to themselves and others, or adopting super-tolerant personae, there’s bound to be an eventual, and awful, backlash.

    So give Steiner room to air his views and get the safety valve opened and functioning. At the same time, try to be honest about the views of his hypothetical Jamaican neighbours too. I’d bet they’re probably not as squeaky clean non-racist as the pc automata would like to everyone to believe.

  139. 141 umoh. amos (from Nigeria)
    September 2, 2008 at 11:45

    I have to wonder what kind of character assasination Barrack Obama and his familly would be on the receiving end of if it was HIS daughter that was unwed, underage and pregnant; Fox News would be slaughtering them for it, and you KNOW I’m right.

    The fact that Barrack has clearly come out and told his supporters, the media and the public to leave Bristol Palin alone and not to judge Sarah Palin’s suitability based on her daughter, speaks volumes about Barrack’s amazing strength of character.

    As sad as it is, I am surprised that Palin & her husband are proud of their daughter who is pregnant out of wedlock. A very wrong message by people who claim to be champions of morality, abstinence & family values….Shame, shame, shame.”

  140. 142 umoh. amos (from Nigeria)
    September 2, 2008 at 11:48

    My present concern goes in the direction that the apparent lack of knowledge about Mrs Palin’s record may fear what other revelations lie in wait….

  141. 143 Virginia Davis
    September 2, 2008 at 11:52

    Regarding British reluctance to become involved in street crime, has it been considered that the continuous video taping of the public contributes to the “I’m not involved” attitudes?


  142. 144 Katharina in Ghent
    September 2, 2008 at 12:01

    Re. Palin’s daughter:

    I heard this morning on BBC World Service that her daughter is going to get married… Married at 17??? To me this sounds like a disaster waiting to happen, as in “divorced at 18”. One question that occured to me was this: What’s the age limit for consent in Alaska? And how old was she when she got pregnant? To be honest, to have a seventeen-year old pregnant daughter is nothing to be proud of, and apart from everything else this tells me that Mrs. Palin should spend more quality time with her five children.

  143. 145 Dennis
    September 2, 2008 at 12:28

    Thanks Amy!
    Post on 9/2/2008 @ 3.42am

    You have any questions, send them to me and i will try to answer…

    And about my first class: it starts on 9/2/2008 @ 8.00AM eastern standard time…
    insert your own time difference in!!!

    Syracuse, New York

  144. 146 Venessa
    September 2, 2008 at 13:15

    Katharina ~

    You ask the same questions I have. I will be curious to see in Palin changes her views in any way regarding abstinence. She is clearly in denial about what is appropriate for the people of this country; instead she seems to prefer to thrust her own moral beliefs on everyone by her selective backing of bills. Not someone I really want to vote for. Of course her denial about global warming and openness to drill in Anwar are red flags too.

  145. 147 Colleen
    September 2, 2008 at 13:16

    another question that i think is interesting is this:

    i have heard some people question the fact that Palin would even agree to run for VP at this point. She just had a baby with down syndrome 5 months ago. Her 17 year old child is due for a baby in 4 months. She’s under investigation in Alaska. She’s been out of the country all of 1 time in her life. I don’t know where else in the US she has even been.

    Is is sexist to question her ability to balance all of this? If it was a man would these issues of work-life balance even come up? Honestly, I partially agree with the questioning. She’s only 44, is under-qualified in many ways, and has a very hectic personal life. Wouldnt it have been a wiser decision on her part to wait a few years before jumping into such a high profile role (she’s still very young)? Or is she just attracted to the glory of it all (as many politicians are accused of)?

  146. 148 Roberto
    September 2, 2008 at 13:24

    RE: Modern politics, circa 2008

    ——— Reminds me of Junior High. Had to go a much longer distance to a much larger, very unruly school with plenty of older kids picking on youngers.

    One week of riding the bus, and I was done with that. I rode my bike come hell or highwater or Blue Northers the extra miles. I was forced by law and my parents to attend the school.

    Those kids could at least be given the excuse of immaturity for their conduct. Modern adults should not be granted the same pass. Modern elective process like watching ye olde school bus go flying by. Banality, profanity, and the trashing of the bathrooms upon arrival, my first exposure to wider “civilization.”

  147. 149 steve
    September 2, 2008 at 13:27

    I think all animals (humans are animals) are afraid of things that are different, for survival purposes. If everyone were so “tame” you would be easy prey. Hence why most birds fly away if you go near them, same with squirrels. People are the same way.

  148. 150 steve
    September 2, 2008 at 13:42

    I’m curious, Would Bristol be a hero to the left if she had an abortion? The “better off dead” than inconvenience me argument? Some great morals. If something is inconvenient then it should be killed!

  149. 151 Colleen
    September 2, 2008 at 13:55

    @ steve

    i haven’t heard or read one comment that says the baby should be aborted. i think it is great she is having the baby, but the circumstances are not ideal by any standards. the issues are:

    1. Palin’s (and the Rep party’s) stance on sex education in public schools.

    2. The sanctioning of a marriage between 2 minors (or is it 1 minor and 1 adult??) just because the girl is pregnant.

    3. the overall “shadiness” of how this story was handled and became public

    4. overall issue of hypocrisy in the republican party’s platform especially regarding “family values” and the like

  150. 152 steve
    September 2, 2008 at 13:58

    @ Colleen

    Every argument you mention about Palin could be made about Obama. At least she’s only the VP candidate. Obama has even less experience. So now how many foreign vacations one has is a qualification? If you’ll look at a map, you’ll see that Alaska is not connected to the lower 48 states. So if she has ever driven to another state, she had to drive through canada. That’s another country.

    Also, if we’re going to disqualify candidates due to their personal lives, Doesn’t Obama smoke? Should he be disqualified for being a smoker?

  151. 153 Jonathan
    September 2, 2008 at 14:00


    So what is the hypocrisy in Palin’s case? She was and is against sex education. Her kid didn’t get any sex education. Her kid got pregnant. She stuck with her professed beliefs that were also her real beliefs. No hypocrisy. She enforced at home the ignorance she enforced for everyone else. It would be hypocritical if she had educated her daughter about sex while trying to enforce ignorance for everyone else. Wrong, yes. Hypocritcal, no.


    I’m not a BBC employee. None of the people here is a BBC employee. We’re all just civilians. [edited out personal attack]. As the saying goes, “reality has a well-known liberal bias.” Your own frequent contributions are evidence that the blog is not edited to exclude the radical right wing. [edited out personal attack]

  152. 154 steve
    September 2, 2008 at 14:02


    You are shocked that a politician can be a hypocrite? Did you also know the sky is blue? Why are you shocked when stuff like this happens? We vote for narcissists, so please don’t be shocked when you see hypocrisy and lies, because we deserve what we vote for.

    Should adults really be held responsible for the actions of their children? Unless you follow your daughter around 24 hours, and lock her up in the house, she’s probably going to be having sex regardless of what you teach her. Society likes to encourage this behavior. look at magazines. Also, should every parent of a criminal be viewed negatively? Say if your child becomes a murderer one day. Should that reflect on you? Say if your child breaks into a house? Say if your child does drugs? I doubt you would say the same, but apparently if it happens to a republican, then they are unfit…

    I know some good people who have kids that have done some horrific things. Should it reflect on them?

  153. 155 Jonathan
    September 2, 2008 at 14:04


    Those are both excellent and incisive points, the foreign relations experience from possibly driving through, or flying over, Canada, and the former smoking.

  154. 156 Colleen
    September 2, 2008 at 14:11

    @ steve

    of course the situation shouldn’t reflect badly on Palin or her daughter as individuals. However, as a policy-maker, Palin’s policies regarding sex-education can be seriously challenged by what is happening in her own family. It’s the exact example of why “no sex-edu” or “abstinece-only” programs should not be the only programs sanctioned by the governement. Many girls across the country are not so lucky to have a family that would be able to support her and her new baby.

  155. 157 Jonathan
    September 2, 2008 at 14:12


    Climate change? What climate change? Your insistence on climate change is clearly another sad and glaring example of BBC’s PC/liberal/left political bias.

    There isn’t any climate change.

    Climate change isn’t man-made.

    There’s nothing we can or should do about it.

    Doing anything would be too expensive.

    The four-layered-thick argument-in-the-alternative that permits oblivion among the determinedly oblivious.

  156. September 2, 2008 at 14:14

    @ Steve and inconvenient should be killed.

    You mean like, Saddam Hussein? Once our friend, Killer of Iranians, protector of Kurdish oil fields, then he got too big and became “inconvenient”.

    The answer to your comment is “no”. First the baby should have never been conceived, either of them really. Now that they are, It is going to take more then normal amount of family attention to see that the mistakes are not repeated in the future.

  157. September 2, 2008 at 14:20

    Bryan, as one who recently quoted a bogus e-mail, I will need you to list examples of Obama’s Unpatriotic actions. Then again I am not really concerned with patriotism myself. Again, I believe America is defined by its ideals, wisdom, and lack of government interference. Flags, pins, oaths, and land are all red herrings. Tangible objects for the slow and unimaginable.

    Please provide an example of his lack of Patritism.

  158. 160 Bob in Queensland
    September 2, 2008 at 14:28

    @ Jonathan

    Absolutely correct that Palin isn’t guilty of hypocrisy. However, I think she IS guilty of fatally flawed views on sex education and I hope her family situation may cause her to review her opinion.

  159. 161 Laura in Minneapolis
    September 2, 2008 at 14:47


    That’s a great talking point…. Who needs to take responsibility for the actions of minors? Parents? The Government? The teens themselves?

    And does it change from situation to situation? For example, is it the parent’s responsibility to control what their children watch on TV (not FCC government sanctions)? But then is it the government’s responsibility if kids turn in to murders… in part because of violence they see on TV?

    My thoughts? Kids are smart. There’s not a whole lot of difference between 17 and 18. Most of the laws surrounding kids are based on arbitrary ages (ex: varying ages in when you can get your license from state to state). Everyone needs to take responsibility, instead of passing the blame.

    Laura in Minneapolis

  160. 162 Jonathan
    September 2, 2008 at 15:50


    Agreed, of course, about Palin’s misguided views. I think the chance of her revising her opinion on the basis of mere facts is approximately zero. There are none so blind as those who will not see, and you can’t make ’em drink.

    Also, she wouldn’t announce her unlikely enlgihtenment even if it did occur. Her purpose is to shore up McCain’s credibility among the radical right fringe, and of course to be female, in the hope of attracting the low-prole women who formerly supported Hillary Clinton but for some mysterious reason cannot bring themselves to vote for Obama, although his positions are virtually identical to hers.

  161. 163 Bryan
    September 2, 2008 at 22:11

    Dwight From Cleveland September 2, 2008 at 2:20 pm

    Bryan, as one who recently quoted a bogus e-mail….

    Are you saying you quoted it or I quoted it? I’d like to know more about this bogus e-mail, because if you mean me, I certainly wouldn’t quote something knowing it was false.

  162. 164 Bryan
    September 2, 2008 at 22:40

    Dwight, I meant to add that I discussed Obama’s lack of patriotism a bit further back on the thread:


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