27
Aug
08

On air: Is it time to isolate Russia?

I’m sure I don’t need to explain this to you. When the French Foreign Minister says he doesn’t want war but he fears it, clearly the situation in Georgia has reached a stage where many of us are paying close attention.

The latest escalation in tension follows a statement by Russian President Dmitry Medvedev where he confirmed that Russia will recognise South Ossetia and Abkhazia as independent states.

We’re discussing how the world should react. UK Foreign Secretary David Miliband for one is in Ukraine for talks on forming a coalition against Russian “aggression”.

Has the time for economic, strategic and diplomatic ties to be reduced to a minimum? Is it time for isolation? Or do the wishes of the people of South Ossetia and Abkhazia deserve to be respected? The vast majority after all say they want out of Georgia.

WANT SOME BACKGROUND?
This page runs you thorugh the crisis day by day.


213 Responses to “On air: Is it time to isolate Russia?”


  1. 1 umoh. amos (from Nigeria)
    August 27, 2008 at 14:33

    The world has had ENOUGH of Russia and EVERTHING should be done to cut them to size, at least for once.

  2. 2 Neil McGowan
    August 27, 2008 at 14:38

    Foolish poppycock, promoted by the neocon numpties.

    Russia moved to defend a population attacked by rockets by the Georgian madman Saakashvili. Now it supports the Ossetians having independence from the madman who attacked them.

    And for this that gutless neocon twit Miliband is announcing a worldwide anti-Russian alliance?? It’s amazing what Miliband will do in support of the Bush Administration – in whose pocket he sits like a spineless little worm.

  3. August 27, 2008 at 14:38

    I think it’s time to isolate russia because the world was very first enough to isolate somalia for 18 years so why not isolate russia also.

  4. 4 Dan
    August 27, 2008 at 14:40

    The negotiations between South Ossetia aand Georgia had been proceeding well enough that the Soviets…oops Russians (is there any difference anymore) unable to attract other nations to them decided to invade, rape and brutalize Georgia. Russian soldiers showing no honor as they then robbed the banks.
    Why is this a country that we need to do business with? Russia has a declining birth rate, severe alcoholism, oligarchs stealing every dollar they can get their hand on and is basically a corrupt society in decline. The Asian population in the East is expanding and thru intermarriage is slowly exterminating the Russians.
    Sooner or later Russia will disappear. Until then we should isolate Russia, remove foreign investments and shut them off from the civilized world for their barbaric behavior.

  5. 5 steve
    August 27, 2008 at 14:41

    The best thing Europe could do is to be come energy independent, and Russia wouldn’t be able to blackmail you with energy anymore. As for a weapons threat, if they can’t blackmail with energy, you don’t buy energy from them, and they cannot buy weapons to threaten you with.

  6. 6 Andrew
    August 27, 2008 at 14:48

    While it appears Russia is testing the waters of expanding by showing their interest in areas of Georgia and now Crimea, I’m hesitant to recommend isolating Russia – I feel the consequences of provoking Russia with isolation would outweigh the benefits of taking a more international, diplomatic approach and getting them to back down from their plans.

  7. 7 Kelsie
    August 27, 2008 at 14:51

    In spite of both Russia’s hostile maneuvering and the sabre-rattling from Western nations, engagement remains the best way to find a lasting peace for the Georgia region and for the world. If we isolate Russia, we only confirm its worst fears and push the world even closer to the brink of open, perhaps unrestricted, combat.

    Furthermore, with the ongoing conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan, most Western military forces do not have the wherewithal at the moment to even contemplate a limited (or unlimited) war with the Russian Federation. We need to engage Russia, not force it further into the corner it already feels it’s in.

  8. 8 Maina
    August 27, 2008 at 14:52

    Is it time to isolate Russia? Have Europeans discovored new ways to heat their homes during winter, run their vehicles on water? Europe needs Russia’s oil and gas, isolation is not an option. Europe will cry for Georgia but that will probably be the end of it. Isolating Russia requires extreme sacrifices on the part of those who depend in Russia’s resources.

  9. 9 Bob in Queensland
    August 27, 2008 at 14:57

    Isolate Russia? Does anyone think they would care one iota? Western Europe needs Russian oil a heck of a lot more than Russia needs world approval.

  10. 10 Roy, Washington DC
    August 27, 2008 at 14:58

    Isolating Russia could very well lead to another Cold War. Is that really what we want?

  11. 11 Bob in Queensland
    August 27, 2008 at 14:59

    @ Abdi

    So the world isolated Somalia 18 years ago. Just look at how successful THAT policy has been! (And Somalia doesn’t have nuclear weapons or oil!)

  12. August 27, 2008 at 15:05

    @ bob
    I totally disagree with you.But My country was never isolated we don’t have neuclear weapons or oil.
    but I must admit that I have really understood what your trying to put across.Many thanks

  13. 13 albertine NYC
    August 27, 2008 at 15:09

    It would be great for EU to figure out a way to quell Russia’s unease with NATO expansion, missiles in Poland, and pipeline alternatives.

    Isolation may not be the best thing, but some kind of close negotiations/alliances and some kind of turning back on the US neo-con dream.

    This may be the best way to avert any further expansions into Ukraine /Crimea since they are so mad a Bush.

    Leave the US out of it. The people here are too smitten by neo-con rhetoric, controlled by a commercial media system that enslaves them to the military/industrial/entertainment/medical complex, and they are also heading for an economic shock that is going to make their ability to think much much worse.

    Really leave them (us) out of the equation this time! Good luck.

  14. August 27, 2008 at 15:09

    What exactly is the West supposed to threaten Russia with?

    America needs Russia to help it wih Iran but Condo forgot about that and decided to anger Russia by threatening to put missiiles in several countries that border it.

    America has no armed forces to send anywhere anymore.

    What is Europe going to threaten Russia with? Not buying its oil.

    The West can do nothing about South Ossetia and Abkhazia and instead needs to placate Russia because she is the one holding all the cards.

    A good dose of reality is needed and not chest beating.

    MIke

  15. August 27, 2008 at 15:10

    I don’t think so. But more international pressure should be a right way to comeback any country in the right direction. We may believe or not from the beginning, the world is divided and in divided world this type of superiority from strong nation always have been existing and this is not new case.

    Is there any instrument to measure right or wrong? I think it more depend on thinking of the people. Every person has different perspectives.

    Main problem is that strong countries always behave to neighbor countries as superiority. So until this type of discrimination should not totally controlled I don’t expect strong countries follow the neutrality relations to other countries and they will respect the independent of other countries. We have many example about how strong counries always directly interfere to poor and weak countries.

    We are living in the energy crisis and more unsecure world so I think this type of problem will be increase rapidly in the coming days ahead.

  16. 16 Count Iblis
    August 27, 2008 at 15:11

    The West is actually behaving in a similar way as it accuses Russia of behaving. After the Orange revolution in Ukraine, when Ukraine decided to follow an independent course from Russia, Russia said: Very well, but you now need to pay the market price for gas. This lead to a dispute in which the flow of gas was briefly cut of.

    Now it is Russia vs. the West, and Russia has decided to follow an independent course, and not to allow its decisions to be vetoed by Washington. The West now wants to punish Russia!

    The fact that no Western leaders are talking about the real issue:

    Or do the wishes of the people of South Ossetia and Abkhazia deserve to be respected? The vast majority after all say they want out of Georgia.

    shows that this is indeed powerplay. We do exactly that what we accuse Russia is doing.

  17. 17 Nofal Elias
    August 27, 2008 at 15:17

    Security Council had been ignored by the USA & GB when they went to war against IRAQ and invaded an independent country and we all know on what false ground the did so.
    What Russia is doing is very simlair but with a very good reason to do so.
    Why the rest of the world never suggested to impose sanction against US when the invaded IRAQ ?
    How many countries are the west hoping to sanction RUSSIA, CHINA, IRAN, SYRIA, VENSEZULA, NORTH KOREA … etc,
    How would Israel react if Russia install missiles in Syria and Iran ?

  18. 18 Brett
    August 27, 2008 at 15:18

    Yes, isolate Russia because the whiney democratic-brat [Georgia] thought it would be a good idea to go picking fights, thinking the west would back them up…. Wonderful idea guys. And only a decade or two after the world finally [somewhat] mended ties with Russia.

    I tell you what, isolate Russia, then go build that missile defense system in their backyard. See what happens.

  19. 19 Maurice
    August 27, 2008 at 15:19

    Hi,
    In our world today, I am afraid taking the diplomatic position of isolating Russia is not a solution. I think engaging Russia and other major powers is critical if we are to be relavant to each other within global circles.

    Maurice In Nairobi Kenya

  20. August 27, 2008 at 15:21

    @Dan

    Are you forgetting that Russia is rolling in money and will be for at least several more decades?

    Several european countries will have to choose between democracy and Islam within 25 years and Russia will be the least of their problems.

    America is staring bankruptsy in the face and the economies of several european countries are looking very bad to say the least.

    You are sure about a lot of things that happend in South Ossetia and Abkhazia that many of us are not so sure about. Many people say that before the Russians entered that the Georgians were driving their tanks over houses whist the inhabitants were still inside.

    Mike

  21. 21 steve
    August 27, 2008 at 15:23

    Why don’t we ask why russia’s neighbors hate Russia and russians so much? Could it be perhaps from how the Russians treated them?

  22. 22 Brett
    August 27, 2008 at 15:23

    Furthermore, when is the world going to Isolate the US? We act in far more arrogant ways, throwing our weight around, without a care of what others think.

  23. 23 Brett
    August 27, 2008 at 15:25

    Nofal beat me to it, lol.

  24. 24 Dictatore Generale Max Maximilian Maximus I
    August 27, 2008 at 15:30

    Added: Wednesday, 27 August, 2008, 11:47 GMT 12:47 UK

    International bodies COULD solve the crisis IF they were fair, ethical, moral & lacking hypocrisy! But these words aren’t in their dictionary.

    Western-backed diplomacy can only do ONE thing: Back Off!

    Russia ISN’T heading 4 isolation! It’s the West that’s heading for / already is; an object of hate, derision, distrust & the greatest symbol of hypocrisy!

    So! What’s the REAL solution?

    Ditch the double standards! 1st follow international law then implement it impartially & get respect!!

    That’s what I said in the ‘500 character’ debate.

    The Q here is: Is it time to isolate Russia?

    The clear answer as far as I am concerned is NO!

    The ordinary Russians suffered under the Tsars. The Ordinary British suffered under their Kings. That is a commonality!

    Subsequently, Western Europe emancipated, evolved & tried to create a ‘higher’ standard of human behaviour as evidenced by rights for workers, women, the disabled etc. But the Russians suffered under the yoke of Totalitarianism!

    Let’s hug the Bear. Let’s make friends! Let Peace & Prosperity prevail!

  25. 25 Jonathan
    August 27, 2008 at 15:31

    @Ros

    I guess we’ll be needing that background information, because if we only got our news from WHYS, we’d be awfully confused at all the fuss. According to the heads of the previous pages, all Russia did was “recognize independent countries!” Why in the world would anyone be upset about that?

  26. August 27, 2008 at 15:33

    @ Brett
    What? does it mean when you say ‘Nofal beat me to it, lol.’

  27. 27 Nick in USA
    August 27, 2008 at 15:39

    @ Steve

    Well said, about the energy independence, I mean. Many of the largest problems in the world would be solved with energy independence.

    @ Brett

    Also, very well said. Isolating Russia is an absolutely ridiculous proposition. First of all, it would never happen. Second, making Russia angry at this point in time is such a huge mistake. Tensions are building, and this would just be adding fuel to the fire.

  28. 28 Anthony
    August 27, 2008 at 15:39

    It would be a GREAT idea to isolate Russia if we want to put the WWIII machine into motion. Putin will do anything to show that he and his country are strong, even if that means sacrificing millions upon millions of citizens.

    The real way to weaken Russia is to find alternate fuel. Then watch their economy go back to post cold war status.

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  29. 29 Justin
    August 27, 2008 at 15:40

    Isolation? What happened to diplomacy and European tact… Isolating Russia is just what Europe and the world don’t need. I think a little perspective is needed. Why can the West recognize Kosovo and Russia not recognize S.Ossetia? Why is Russian so threatening when it attacks Georgia when the West has invaded two countries recently, one under very suspect circumstances? What would the West do if we Russia installed anti-ballistic missles on their borders? What would the West do if Russia formed defence alliances all along it’s borders? Seems to me the West is telling Russia its our way or the highway, we will do what we want but you can’t do the same. Russia has national interests as well and until we start to recognize this obvious fact, well there will be trouble.

    Concerning Russian Democracy or lack there of. Again a little perspective is needed. It was just 20 years ago that the empire started to crack. The “new’ Russia is still evolving. Democracy and change take time and to expect them to change overnight, well is a little niave.

  30. 30 Dennis
    August 27, 2008 at 15:43

    I think it is very good time to IMMEDIATELY isolate Russia for a long time!!!! They went into Georgia on a pretense of causing mass violence to the country….And they [Russia] have rebuffed international laws and norms about getting out of the Georgian [state]…

    Isolate Russia now, and imposed massive sanctions on the whole country…until they can earn the respect!

    Dennis

  31. 31 Moses Massa
    August 27, 2008 at 15:46

    There is no point of a new and foolish sabre rattling by the so called Western powers. Why on earth provke another dishearthening and no winner situation for the rest of other peaceful states and citizens? Is it not time we learn that war does not profit any of us? The debate about isolating Russia is baseless and fruitless. The West should understand that the world has come a long way to be lectured about good governance,security and human right by it; other states are fed up of this war mongering by the west just to exert control over them.
    We need to talk about a world of equal development,security and progress for all and not just the few.
    It is also important that the west understands that it no longer has colonies of people they onced considered inferior and loyal to fight on their behalf. Any provocation of isolating Russia would only meant strategic and diplomatic loss because other regional powers like China,Brazil and India want to trade with each other and Africa.

  32. 32 Nick in USA
    August 27, 2008 at 15:48

    Nofal is right. I don’t understand how this double standard works, exactly. Russia defended a region that was being attacked, but the USA invaded a sovereign nation, on what we now know to be, a false premise. What makes us any better than them?

  33. 33 Jonathan
    August 27, 2008 at 15:51

    @The smart crowd–

    Oh yeah, sure, of course, America is just as arrogant as Russia, throwing our weight around, don’t care who we crush, freedom and democracy and liberty are just meaningless words, blah blah blah.

    Nobody over 12 years old has any excuse to think this or say it. It just demonstrates ignorance and narcissism and masochism–the ignorance that permits this blather, the masochism that pervades it, the narcissism that imagines itself to be worldly by being cynical and self critical. Cynical does ot mean sophisticated, and just because you’re smarter than the knee-jerking jerks who wave the flag doesn’t mean you’re right, just that you’re jerking in the oppositie direction. Wise up and learn some history and get a clue. You’re embarrassing yourselves.

  34. August 27, 2008 at 16:01

    Again, before you consider what to do about Russia, one must take into account that Russia supplies the world with between 12 and 15 percent of its oil. They consume about 3 percent.

    In today’s world, “national security” is better attended to by gaining economic stability.

  35. 35 KWS (Trinidad and Tobago)
    August 27, 2008 at 16:02

    From talking point post:

    As a neutral, it is clear that western policies have come back to bit them. For years the west has practiced double standards ignoring all countries who have pointed that out. From the fall of communism, the break up of Yugoslavia, the war in Iraq, Independence of East Timor to Kosovo, the West has pushed new democratic governments by exploiting ethnic and cultural separatism. To add to this the Western governments and philosophies have basically hijacked the UN Security Council making it very biased. In essence all Russia had done is applying the same western methods against the west, who are now crying foul. If the west wants to grant independence to regions base on ethnic and cultural lines under the guise of humanitarian need, the ethic Russian should be allowed to do the same. Clear and simple from a neutral’s point of view. All the other talk of empire, cold war, etc is propaganda rubbish to distract people. The truth, the west has practiced a “do what I say but not what I do” policy.

  36. 36 David
    August 27, 2008 at 16:10

    Those who want to ‘isolate’ Russia perhaps do not realise that this is a sorry attempt by Bush and Milliband to rekindle the Cold War. For without an enemy to oppose and to rally the sheepish public and media, they have little to offer. Georgia’s president is a mouthpiece for Bush and a media queen, and has done well in this role. It’s fine when the US and co. invades whichever country has fallen out of line but should the Russians do the same, they sudddenly become enemy no. 1 and are demonised. I don’t think anyone is allowed an objective opinion anymore in order to ensure we are all fighting the so-called ‘war on terror’.

  37. 37 gary
    August 27, 2008 at 16:10

    Oh, yes! Let’s push a country of nearly two hundred million, nuclear-armed folks into a corner. That should provide lots of fun. Alternatively, perhaps we should try communicating first? Pretty clearly, Russia is acting in self-interest, just as it perceived the US and EU acting in their self-interest relative to Kosovo and Serbia. The details may seem very different from a western view; but still seem very similar from the Russian side. Give talking a chance, then keep on giving it more chances until actual communication happens. How many times in past has such isolation accomplished anything positive? The French Foreign Minister’s comments are unwise. Conventional military action between nuclear powers may be very difficult to limit, and I have it on good authority, nuclear bombs hurt!
    g

  38. 38 Brett
    August 27, 2008 at 16:13

    @ Jonathan:
    Oh yeah, sure, of course, America is just as arrogant as Russia, throwing our weight around, don’t care who we crush, freedom and democracy and liberty are just meaningless words, blah blah blah.

    Nobody over 12 years old has any excuse to think this or say it. It just demonstrates ignorance and narcissism and masochism–the ignorance that permits this blather, the masochism that pervades it, the narcissism that imagines itself to be worldly by being cynical and self critical. Cynical does ot mean sophisticated, and just because you’re smarter than the knee-jerking jerks who wave the flag doesn’t mean you’re right, just that you’re jerking in the oppositie direction. Wise up and learn some history and get a clue. You’re embarrassing yourselves.

    I’m sorry you feel that way. However, It is PERFECTLY justifiable to question why it is fine for America to attack and invade a country thousands of miles away which poses no threat to it’s people or land, yet it is somehow unacceptable for Russia to defend against a hostile neighbor.
    So please, teach us something and pull us out of this state of ignorance we find ourselves in, if you think we are so incorrect.

  39. 39 Nofal Elias
    August 27, 2008 at 16:13

    I also wanted to mention that not only US destroyed IRAQ’s infrastruction and introdced violance and invited ALQAEDA to operate freely in Iraq, They have no intension to leave the country at all until of course until the oil runs out. That is why they built an Embassy in Iraq that 20 times bigger than Saddam’s biggest palace and will have 5000 american personnel employed, WHY? how comes they can provide water and electricity 24 hours a day when the rest of the country only allowed 2 hours electricity a day.

    I do support for a call of an international law that will apply to everybody and all countries will obey and respect it where we can live in peace, all nations will be equal regardless of their race and religon believes.

    Nato should be scrapped, the last thing we want for Russia/China to form another Nato equaviliant to have countries that is not in Nato and we will be definatly heading for a third world war

  40. 40 Brett
    August 27, 2008 at 16:15

    @ Abdi:
    My comment was referring to Nofal beating me to noting the double standard of the US and its attack on Iraq and Russia and its defense / attack against Georgia.

  41. August 27, 2008 at 16:16

    It will be difficult for the West to isolate Russia considering its emerging economic and military influence. Its recognition of South Ossetia and Abkhazia as independent states is a response to NATO expansion in its neighboring states and to thwart Georgia’s attempt to become a new military base for NATO.

    The West should contend with the fact that Russia is back on its feet after the end of the communism which left it look powerless in face of the US foreign policy in Europe by heading the NATO military intervention in ex-Yugoslavia and by invading Iraq.

    Russia still has other cards to play against the West by standing by Iran and thwarting any further Security Council sanctions against it. It may also enhance its nuclear cooperation with it to reduce US influence in the Middle East.

    The West should recognize Russia as a power. It’s not like other small states that can be easily crushed just through economic embargoes, leaving them to fight for their lives. Russia is a bear, once out of its hibernation, it won’t hesitate to show its paws to those coming in its way.

  42. August 27, 2008 at 16:18

    @ Brett
    Many thanks

  43. 43 Nick in USA
    August 27, 2008 at 16:24

    @ Jonathan

    Ok, we’ve seen that you know how to insult people. Now can you back up your arguments and insults? Please, give us the history lesson that we so desperately need.

  44. August 27, 2008 at 16:31

    What George Bush had referred to as “political capital” that e had planed to spend was bought with “opportunity costs.” If the world had not watch as the US switched faces after the end of the cold war to a “Do as I say not as I do” posture, isolating a perceived threat would be done quite easily. However, since the rest of the world are not Americans, it is quite natural to questions the US’s motives for everything. Heck many, and I hope most, Americans are doing it, why wouldn’t the rest of the world.

    I would love to see that meeting of the diplomats. The one where the US diplomat say to the French “freedom fries” diplomat, “we decided that we don’t like Russia anymore. Could you please stop trading with them. Don’t buy any of their oil. Oh, but don’t buy any oil from our suppliers either. We wouldn’t want to drive the price up. Why don’t you French people just suffer? Thanks. “

  45. 45 Anthony
    August 27, 2008 at 16:35

    @ Jonathan

    Lets put Russia, Iran, or North Korea in the U.S.’s shoes. Say they had all the resourses that we had. The world would be NUTS!!! We are who we are because we are fair and use our power right (or at least a lot better than anyone else in the world would). You think WE’RE CROOKED??? Look at the KGB Mafia, I mean Russian Govt.

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  46. 46 Teresa
    August 27, 2008 at 16:37

    Dear Ros

    If, in the UK, we insist that the people living in Gib. must be allowed to chose whose flag they fly, how can we do otherwise than accept the wishes of those resident in South Ossetia & Abkhazia. Words like “sauce, goose, and gander” do spring to mind.

    Best wishes Teresa

  47. 47 nelsoni
    August 27, 2008 at 16:38

    Isolate Russia? The west must be having a laugh or must be a little bit tipsy. Much of Europe depends on Russia for gas and oil, isolating Russia could mean cold winters and an energy crisis. Talking things over will be a far better option. The west needs Russia more not the other way round. As long as Double standards continue to exist, I am afraid many more these confrontations lie ahead in the future.

  48. 48 Greg
    August 27, 2008 at 16:38

    Ros, given what the US, UK and the “coalition of the willing” perpetrated on the world stage I do not understand why it comes as any kind of shock that Russia would act in kind? Isn’t it somehow hypocritical for our countries to act in this unilateralist manner and expect the Russians to behave otherwise? It’s always the same. Do as I say, not as I do.

    GB/OB

  49. 49 Jonathan
    August 27, 2008 at 16:39

    @WHYS– I have a great idea to streamline the pages on this and most topics: Just include a small prefilled box next to the reply box, bearing the text “OH YEAH, WELL WHAT ABOUT IRAQ, HUH, HUH? HUH? NASTY OLD USA, HAH! WHAT ABOUT IRAQ!” There would be a little box to click.

    The “Bash America first, last, and always” bozos would thus be able to express their very enlightening and nuanced, yet always identical, contribution by simply ticking the box. They would then have more time to do whatever it is they do, which I only know does not iinvolve learning any 20th century world history.

    The rest of us would be spared the tedium of their tiresome, spurious contributions.

    And if we ever manage to extricate ourselves from that hellhole, the text could be easily changed to substitute the previously fashionable screeches of “INDIANS” or “SLAVES” in place of “IRAQ” for the continued convenience of the bashers, for whom the detail never counts and wouldn’t be noticed.

  50. August 27, 2008 at 16:40

    Why are governments falling into this pathetic trap?

    Isolate Russia, for what? Defending her people and stopping Georgians from murdering people?

    This whole situation has been blown out of proportion for one simple reason – and it is because you have an election in the US and the GOP are pushing for it. It is about time that Europe told the US to bog off and that they can deal with this situation. If you think Russia is going to back down after the last few years of watching what has happened around the world they will merely laugh!

    The US has sent in “Humanitarian Aid” in a Coastguard cutter! Do you know how silly that looks? No I mean it – how silly?

    Anyone with any sense would sit down and talk this situation through – but no, they have to go back to Bush’s foreign policy. Good God – wake up to the world!

  51. August 27, 2008 at 16:49

    Russia to China: “Want more oil?

    China to Russia: “Sure, how much a barrel?”

    Russia to China: “How about $80 a barrel, we could possibly have a war to fight.’

    China to Russia: “Sounds good to us – do you have any gas, the natural kind we could buy at the going rate? How long do you think this war will take?”

    Russia to China: “Gas, no problem at all – we’ll even build the pipeline! It’s with Europe and the US – shouldn’t take long – they will have to invade us or invade the Middle-East to get the oil they need. That will bring in a few other countries so we can make a killing on the arms we sell, too. You up for that?”

    China to Russia: “Yeah – we are! But what if they just want to negotiate? That won’t be good will it?”

    Russia to China: “Nahh – that won’t be a problem – they have this guy called John McCain coming into office now – all he wants to do is tell everyone he’s a POW and fight wars. Now – if that Barack fella gets in…..”

  52. 52 Sunil S
    August 27, 2008 at 16:49

    Firstly, how dare Russia claim Chechnya’s call for seperation is any different (I believe one of the Russian authorities was making that claim in a BBC interview).

    Secondly, my view is that the Russian president (or prime minister;o) is playing with the world (as many probably know). I kind of saw that in the last G8 summit (I think it was a G8 summit). He gave his word to Gordon Brown that he was going to support proposed sanctions against Zimbabwe; the next day Russia opposed the sanctions in the UN security council. Seems like someone in Russia (PM?) did not agree.
    You see similar dirty tactics by him in this conflict.

    Sunil S
    California

  53. 53 Anthony
    August 27, 2008 at 16:59

    @ Will

    BRAVO!!! AWESOME!!! KUDOS!!! I’m gonna copy that and e-mail it to everyone on my outlook!!! HAHAHA!!! I shouldn’t be laughing since it’s so realistic, but HAHAHA!!! LOL!!!

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  54. 54 Nick in USA
    August 27, 2008 at 17:01

    @ Jonathan

    Again, we’ve seen your insult ability. Please, give us this 20th century history lesson, which makes a comparison between Iraq and Georgia invalid.

    @ Anthony

    Nobody here is claiming that Russia is a perfect country.

  55. 55 Jens
    August 27, 2008 at 17:04

    i would like to know how we can isolate one of the largest countries, that has virtually any resources know to man, and uhmmmm rolles in billions of rubels, courtesy of these resources?????? let me think on that one for a little bit…….ups we can’t.

  56. 56 Rashid Patch
    August 27, 2008 at 17:08

    Time to “isolate” Russia? Isn’t surrounding it with military bases and rockets enough?

    Get real, people! The neo-cons and corporate arms trafficers who are trying to promote endless wars have got to you.

  57. 57 Dictatore Generale Max Maximilian Maximus I
    August 27, 2008 at 17:20

    Ref: Jonathan, August 27, 2008 at 4:39 pm

    So what you’re saying is that those who judge American actions negatively but are ‘right’ by ANY fair, objective, wise, ‘long-term implications of short-term gains-view’ ARE:

    > “bozos” with “tiresome, spurious contributions.” and in their comments “the detail never counts and wouldn’t be noticed.”

    Well! You know what?

    That is a boneheaded, blockheaded, thick & judgemental view of others.

    Why don’t you just counter the accusations or allegations or half-truths of others point by point instead of passing value judgements? Eh!? Why not?

    Not enough REAL facts to support your case is it?

    We don’t need a commercial break every 5 to 7 minutes to cater to our short attention spans. We can, for example, watch, listen, absorb, ‘read between the lines’ etc. of whatever happens on BBC’s ‘Hard Talk’ for 26 or so continuous minutes!

    As for Russia: Be careful! Very careful! It WAS a Commie bear but NOW it’s a Capitalist bear & it will beat you at your game!

  58. 58 Tom D Ford
    August 27, 2008 at 17:22

    “WHYS: Is it time to isolate Russia?”

    I suggest it is time to get yourselves energy self sufficient and off your addiction to Oil and Gas from nations like Russia, Saudi Arabia, and their ilk.

    Take back control of your lives from Big Oil and Gas, and make them an option instead of a necessity. That is the most effective way to cure your problems with Russia.

    In other words, stop blaming Russia for your own problems of your own creation.

  59. 59 Daniel Fedele
    August 27, 2008 at 17:31

    I tend to view a country as I view a single person and isolating a person or country in this case may provoke resentment and a negative reaction in order to have all take notice of them. We can’t protect everyone and break up every fight, it is a wonderful idea to try to achieve peace, but we don’t have the resources to do it, we must wisely pick and choose our global involvements.

    Daniel Fedele, NJ.
    Feel free to read on air.

  60. 60 Andrew
    August 27, 2008 at 17:32

    Welcome to the real world. Never ignore those who can strike you with nuclear weapons. Or turn off your gas. And starve your craving for oil.

  61. 61 denzel Daley
    August 27, 2008 at 17:38

    Europe doesn’t have the metal to do! I dARE you! I double DARe you

    Denzel from South Carolina

  62. 63 Dictatore Generale Max Maximilian Maximus I
    August 27, 2008 at 17:44

    Ref: Will Rhodes, August 27, 2008 at 4:40 pm
    &
    Will Rhodes, August 27, 2008 at 4:49 pm

    I Like the name Rhodes. It has a scholarly sound to it! I like the comments too!

  63. 64 Daisy
    August 27, 2008 at 17:47

    @ Dan

    “Sooner or later Russia will disappear. Until then we should isolate Russia…” Just as simple as counting back from 3 to 1. Looks like there’ll never be somethimg to turn someone’s clouded mind into a shining one!

  64. 65 Andre
    August 27, 2008 at 17:50

    Isolation of the Russians would be the absolute worst policy that the West could follow. Since the ending of the Cold War we have made a total mess of our Russian policies. We failed to reach out enough to the Yeltsin Administration and treated Vladimir Putin with indifference in his early years.

    Even worse, we have signed agreements with Poland and the Czechs to place missile defense systems in those countries. The systems we emplace there cannot stop a Russian nuclear attack but, they can make a Russian attack, in some form, more likely. Why on earth are we provoking the Russians in this manner? What can we gain from this? The standard explanation is that the shield is designed to stop future Iranian nuclear missile strikes on Europe. The trouble is that this shield gives us more problems with the Russians than it solves with the Iranians. Why didn’t we take up the Russians offer of defensive station in Azerbaijan?

    As soon as the US has a new president, we have to reach out to the Russians to try and find a common consensus between Western nations and Russia. Our relationship with the Russians is really important for military security, environmental and space progress and countering nuclear proliferation.

  65. August 27, 2008 at 17:52

    For those in favor of Isolating Russia. Put yourself in Russia’s Shoes. If the west Isolated them, What would be Russia’s best options?

  66. 67 Thea Winter - Indianapolis IN, USA
    August 27, 2008 at 17:53

    @ Will Rhodes,
    So true. Nothing better then having these issues during an election year.

    On the issue, I do not think it would be a good idea to isolate Russia. I do not want the cold war back or to have WWIII start. What I would like is for Ronald Reagan to come back and solve this issue. After all he did it before.

  67. 68 Danappiah Kaidala
    August 27, 2008 at 17:54

    Time has come for Kremlin to be isolated from the world in all possible respect. I say that fully knowing the good relationship we (INDIA) enjoy with USSR even though we have found a new love in USA.

    We have got to differetiate between Kremlin and the people of Russia because the latter has been one of the victims of the evil Putin regime.

    Medvedev may be in a guber’natorial’ post. However, the ‘notorious’ Putin is calling all the shots. The Russian press has been under siege and we have seen a series of “mysterious deaths” of journaists in Russia over the last decade or so. The Georgian conflict is no different from that of Chechnya. Kremlin has to crumble before it is too late.

  68. 69 Sulayman Dauda
    August 27, 2008 at 18:04

    Isolating Russia will no doubt make the International system incompleate thus, inrelevant and will increase anarchy, which may give way to World War three.

  69. 70 Chrissy from Oregon, USA
    August 27, 2008 at 18:06

    I do not think the solution is as simple as simply Isolating Russia. In my opinion, Georgia started this by invading south osettia, and Russia stepped in to defend them. I have a hard time understanding why The US supports Georgia and is trying to find a way to punish Russia. While the Russian attacks on Georgia seem excessive, the Georgian attacks on South Osettia were inappropriate as well; Geogia is not without blame. Instead of trying to punish one and support the other, perhaps they ought to both be held accountable for their actions. But who is the US to try to step in and decide how they will be punished? The US Invaded and attacked Iraq because we did not like the way they were doing things; did the Russians step in to punish us for that?

  70. 71 Count Iblis
    August 27, 2008 at 18:09

    If the west Isolated them, What would be Russia’s best options?

    Closer ties with China and India. Although China and India have not spoken out strongly in favor of Russia’s actions in Georgia, privately they are very critical about the West’s position in this issue.

    Russia, China and India together account for about 40% of the World’s population and they can have a lot of power if they join forces.

  71. 72 Sheikh Kafumba Dukuly
    August 27, 2008 at 18:10

    TIME TO ISOLATE RUSSIA? Isolate Russia for suggesting that she will recognise South Ossetia and Abkhazia’s independence? LOL!!! This is pure double standard by America and others. When Georgia chose to declare independence, America and others pressurized Russia to acknowledge and give into the Georgian people demand. Now that the pendulum has swung, i thing it is only befitting for America and her windbags to face the depth of reasoning. If the People of South Ossetia and Abkhazia see it imperative to their own autonomy, it is time to acknowlege that.

  72. 73 Justin from Iowa
    August 27, 2008 at 18:11

    Russia doesn’t need to be isolated necessarily, but they do need to be punished for their hypocrisy. They have used force to keep seperatists from removing regions from their own dominion. When another nearby country attempts to forcefully keep itself intact, russia attacks in the interest of the “persecuted” and then allows those persecuted to exact un-regulated retribution.

    That’s a crock of bull.

  73. 74 Kenny In Florida
    August 27, 2008 at 18:16

    I wish to see my government not get involved in someone else’s business for once. The world hates America, yet we are the first country to cry to for aid. We should sit aside and let Europe figure this one out. I don’t necessary agree with Russia’s actions but I also see tremendous hypocrisy in America being opposed to a country invading another.

  74. 75 Sheikh Kafumba Dukuly
    August 27, 2008 at 18:17

    Why do we keep being parochial in this conflict. Georgia’s provocation precipitated this whole conflict. What is the moral ground to wrong Russia in this conflict? When Iraq attacked Kuwait in the early 90s, there was a desert storm? Georgia attacked South Ossetia and Abkhazia and watched with mutism. Let Russia pay the prize for her arrogance against South Ossetia and Abkhazia Georgia.

  75. 76 Virginia Davis
    August 27, 2008 at 18:17

    In this endless chess game, Russia has the West (US & Britain & Europe) in check.
    And the US can’t even land its “humanitarian” supplies from its warship. The
    Russians have oil and gas which Europe needs, as well as nukes. They are
    annoyed (swept two pawns off the board when no one was looking) because of the shield agreement Rice signed with Poland (maybe if the US elects Obama, he will take that whole mess off our table). Let’s just sputter.

    In my opinion, let’s welcome the two new nations and establish diplomatic relations with them. And let Russia flex its muscles; which is what it is doing. Georgia was ill advised to give Russia the excuse to have a “little war” which did a lot of damage.

    Virginia in Oregon

  76. 77 Dan
    August 27, 2008 at 18:17

    There are so many facets raised by listeners. Fear about a new Cold War are unfounded as Russia restarted the old one.
    Fear of nuclear war is also unfounded as the Dictators in Russia do not want to die.
    We need Russian energy supplies is also a specious argument as Russia needs to sell its products and the fear of losing it will sharpen energy conservation and development of alternative energy in Europe.
    Trying to deal with Russia from fear is a dead bang loser.
    Isolate the Russians. Spank them and make them pay heavily for barbaric behavior.

  77. 78 Jessica in NYC
    August 27, 2008 at 18:18

    @ Will Rhodes

    Hilarious and scary…

  78. 79 Anthony
    August 27, 2008 at 18:18

    It looks like just another proxy war to see who has the bigger who-haa to me.

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  79. 80 Dictatore Generale Max Maximilian Maximus I
    August 27, 2008 at 18:22

    The programme has just started and the words:

    >Isolate, Economic Sanctions, War,….. are being used.

    All these are Negative words and imply Negative actions.

    Why don’t we think Positive?

    ALL of US including the 12 Trillion US$ economy of the USA suffer from the problems of:

    >AIDS, Poverty, Homelessness, lack of adequate health care etc.

    Why don’t we get together and solve these problems? Why?

    Why don’t we think of ourselves as Earthlings with a common objective of reaching our highest individual & group potential? Why?

  80. 81 Jessica in NYC
    August 27, 2008 at 18:25

    I agree with has already been stated 1) Isolating Russia will do nothing to improve the situation 2) Russia wouldn’t be affected by this and continue 3) The whole thing has been blown out of proportion because it plays well for the US elections and the GOP need it to suit their cause.

  81. 82 Dan
    August 27, 2008 at 18:25

    It is the weak and tepid response from an America bogged down in an Iraqi war where were are trying to make pigs fly while Iraqi’s are hell bent upon killing each other that has emboldened Russia and now north Korea. Eventually Libya will restart its nuclear program.
    This is the time for bold action to contain the Russians before they grow even bolder and invade Ukraine.

  82. 83 Anthony
    August 27, 2008 at 18:25

    @ Max³

    Because Americans are the best and smartest in the world, and we don’t need anyone else, they ALL need us!!! At least thats what the most of us think. It goes both ways though. Fear and pride.

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  83. 84 Kenny In Florida
    August 27, 2008 at 18:26

    @ Anthony

    I believe most of politics have always stemmed from the ever pervasive “who has the bigger who-haa” conundrum. 🙂

  84. 85 Brett
    August 27, 2008 at 18:27

    *Sits waiting with Nick for the “history” lesson to begin*

    And @ Will:
    Nice points, I like your style lol

  85. 86 Anthony
    August 27, 2008 at 18:28

    @ Dan and Ros

    Interesting. Can you ask the gentalman from the Ukraine if he thinks that Russia will eventually invade the Ukraine if no one takes any actions???

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  86. 87 Kaushal from Surrey
    August 27, 2008 at 18:28

    Why does Russia need disciplining when the USA among other occidental states rather happily recognized the Southern province of Serbia i.e. Kosovo. Will it be ratified by the UNSC? No

    And it is the same with Abkhazia and South Ossetia.

    United Kingdom and the Republic of France are themselves not fit for the United Nations Security Council permanent seat, militarily and with regards to global influence. So their contribution would annoy the Russians more.

    It is in the national interest of the world and the European Union not to poke a dormant dragon in the form of Russia. USSR broke up only 17 years ago.

  87. 88 Dictatore Generale Max Maximilian Maximus I
    August 27, 2008 at 18:29

    Ref: Anthony, August 27, 2008 at 6:25 pm

    THAT is because that’s what your media brainwashes you to / leads you to believe!

    But when you say that honestly I somehow like your comment and MAY perhaps like you too! 8)

  88. 89 KWS (Trinidad and Tobago)
    August 27, 2008 at 18:30

    How can you isolate a country that you have a proactively excluded on many political fronts?

  89. 90 Mark
    August 27, 2008 at 18:32

    I am from Canada , since the call from Bush Senior of peace on earth and the dividend lovers New World Order. I have seen the price of commodities sky rock form 0.35/liters to $1,25/liters which a trend from electricities to rent, our nationals institutions have been sold at a fractions of their cost because under the WTO treates nationals institutions aren’t allowed to exist and were sold to familly (priveteering). Since the fall of the Berlin wall and the USSR the utopians capitalist truly believe with one world economics systems , the supply & demand in conjuctions with the free hands would stabilized & armonized the regional economies ….this uotpia is wrong , the US ecoomy and their dedts are a chaos…

    Russia is coming to grip with the reality of the entire economics systems (IMF, World Bank, MGO’s , NYSE…ect) are living in a lalala land world..

    To have Russians pay world market prices on their commonodities is abused imagine Russians paying 6 times what their paying now for heating Russians Houses …under the World Trade Organizations subsidies are illegales (except for Western Farmers & interest groups)

    This New World Order & its economics systems are a joke.

    Russia is giving hopes to ordinary citizens of the world

    May God Bless this New World Order

    In only God I trust

  90. 91 Jens
    August 27, 2008 at 18:34

    well the GOP needs another war for their warmongering president and candidate. and while at it why not go for the big one WWWIII. i am tired of this persistant cry for endless wars that cannot be won. frankly, i don’t care about iraq enough to shovel my tax money into this, nor do i give two hoots about georgia. however, give a damm about america, it’s uninsured, it’s poorly educated, it’s veterans, it’s homeless, it’s impoverished people. this is where i want my tax dollar to go. not to some country i could not give a flying about.

  91. 92 Anthony
    August 27, 2008 at 18:34

    @ Max³

    Yeah. I was being sarcastic, but I do know people like that, a lot actually, and unfortuanatly.

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  92. 93 Sheikh Kafumba Dukuly
    August 27, 2008 at 18:35

    @ DAN.
    Isolate the Russians. Spank them and make them pay heavily for barbaric behavior.
    Happens to Georgia’s for her barbaric behavior in attacking and killing innocent people in South Ossetia and Abkhazia? This is pure double standard. Why should America and her allies always be right?

  93. 94 Devra Lawrence-Jamaica
    August 27, 2008 at 18:35

    Hi all.

    I am reading the background info on this story as I am not fully aware of what’s going on with Russia.

    Dev

  94. 95 Nick in USA
    August 27, 2008 at 18:37

    @ Anthony

    “It looks like just another proxy war to see who has the bigger who-haa to me.”

    Agreed!

  95. 96 Anthony
    August 27, 2008 at 18:37

    @ Jens

    Yup, it’s scary. I like Albert Einstein’s quote:

    “I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones.”

    Yup, scary, and will be true if the GOP has their way!!!

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  96. August 27, 2008 at 18:39

    Let’s substitute the old days of Germany under Adolfo Hitter for the new trouble arising with Russia under Vladimir Puton. Now let’s us imaging for a moment that Puton is the new Hitler or a loose canon. Would you isolate Russia As Soon As possible or shall we wait for Russia to become like the old Soviets Socialist Republics or even beyond that, like the resurrection of Adolfo Hitler in Vladimir Puton.

    Who cares about oil or any other source of energy if Russia or other country decides to destroy another nation, the people and their freedom.

  97. 98 Count Iblis
    August 27, 2008 at 18:43

    Iran is far more vulnerable to economic pressure than Russia is. Has Iran stopped enriching uranium because of the impact of the measures taken by the UNSC and the West?

  98. 99 Dan
    August 27, 2008 at 18:43

    @ Sheikh Kafumba Dukuly
    Georgia was far along in their negotiation with South Ossetia and the Russians saw that as a danger.
    America and the West is right as we are a force ffor good in the world. There is no doubting that at all. We do make mistakes but on balance we are the major force for good.

  99. 100 Nick in USA
    August 27, 2008 at 18:44

    @ Max

    “Why don’t we think of ourselves as Earthlings with a common objective of reaching our highest individual & group potential? Why?”

    Greed! Helping with these problems isn’t going to make a profit.

    “THAT is because that’s what your media brainwashes you to / leads you to believe!”

    Very true

  100. 101 Alfons
    August 27, 2008 at 18:44

    Some uncertainty prevails in the markets around and in Russia, not because investors support political struggles, but because they need to make sure their profit. If Russia continues growing, the investors will further deal with them despite any political decision. Unlike, Georgia seems to represent only expenditures for Western countries, no revenues could be expected, not even an interesting market. Early or later, the interest will move to there where the money is being generated.

    The Russian response to Georgian attack to South Osetia has avoided more victims. Russians are not annexing Abkhazija and South Osetia, but supporting their independence process.

  101. 102 Julie P
    August 27, 2008 at 18:45

    Really, the best way to resolve this dispute to do it the Boris Yeltsen way: break out the vodka and see who can drink who under the table first.

  102. August 27, 2008 at 18:47

    The title of the discussion is very biased against Russia and mischievous in respect of its use and aim.

    That said, I am shocked by the attitude of European governments and it is utterly disappointing that the governments of Europe are turning against their brother or kin and supporting a foreigner and their enemy — who would not sign for responsibility for war crimes while it violates all civilised, democratic and international laws, treaties and conventions.

    It should, indeed, MUST be emphasised that it is the expansionist, authoritarian, dictatorial, totalitarian and bigot government, the government of the USA, that should be isolated, caged, and brought into live with international laws and not Russia. My defence: How many international treaties has the government of the USA signed, put into practice and is keeps alive; and how many for Russia?.

    Why is the government of the USA in Georgia: Is the USA in Europe? Is the government of the USA a member of the European Union? Is this action not similar to the action that it carried out during what was called Cold War, vis-à-vis the state and national interests of Russia, and a reminder of that era? Is it not clear that the government of the USA is the engineer or trigger of the strife between Russia and Georgia, for its globalist (“firm containment”) interest?

    Talking about force, which government has used force most in the world and not limited to comparison between Russia and the USA? Which government has divided nations and taken the spoil more between the government of Russia and the government of the USA?.

    I hope that the government of Russia would remain strong, resolved and steadfast. God Bless Russia and Bless whatever the government does under the present situation

    Prince Awele Odor
    Lagos, Nigeria

  103. 104 Koba
    August 27, 2008 at 18:47

    The world has had ENOUGH of Russia and Georgia has more than ENOUGH over the years.

    The Europe and US has just started to pay close attention to how Russians have been bulling little democratic country over the years. Georgia literary was kept captured and terrorized by Russia for about a century now.

    The Osetia and Abkhazia are the bleeding parts of Georgian body. Russia strongly manipulates by pressing on this painful places. In the early nineties when Georgia declared its Independence from Soviet Union Russia first revenged by attacking peaceful demonstrators in the down-town Tbilisi with Tanks and toxic Gas resulting in 20 deaths and hundreds of injuries. Georgia stood strong! The revenge was simply not enough for Russia. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_9_tragedy )

    Russia provoked the conflict in Abkhazia. It is still unclear how many hundreds of thousands of peaceful citizens died while running away from Abkhazia when war without a warning began. Many are still missing.

    Russia has been provoking conflict over the years to interfere with Georgia’s economical grows. Russian became very angry when they realized that BP pipe-line that exports oil from Azerbaijan to Turkey and Europe could be a real compilation. Their goal is clear – Russians want to be the only supplier of the gas and oil to Europe. And again they use the tool of conflicts to destabilize situation in Georgia. Pipe-line was bombed among many other strategic objects in Georgia. We all saw Russian plans very clear.

    Despite many promises that Russian wouldn’t interfere in Georgia’s domestic affairs and that Russia recognizes Georgian territorial integrity we have all witnessed how Russian government declared independence to thsse breakaway regions – Osetia and Abkhazia.

    In the national TV news they constantly tell the Russian viewers that G8 is a joke and they didn’t see any benefit from it so they lose nothing by leaving it.
    As we learn now WTO is no longer in Russian interest and they have wanted to join it. All we see from Russian TV is a criticism of Western media, Nato, UN, EU.

    I think if Russians will get really isolated from the world they will soon realize they can’t really live alone. If they will be denied in Visas, getting education abroad and job opportunities they will soon realize they hard they have inflicted on themselves. Many countries depend on Russian natural resources, but Russia’s economy also depends on selling it and generating profit. we already see the flop of Russian economy. All indexes are going down! Question is – Does Russia really want to live that unstable, obscure future and are Russians capable to understand that for every action there’s a re-action!

    My Answer is firm – Russia should be Isolated!
    Today it is Georgia – tomorrow it will be you.

  104. 105 Nick in USA
    August 27, 2008 at 18:50

    @ Dan

    “we [America] are the major force for good.”

    How did we achieve this distinction? How does one become the major force for good?

  105. 106 Dan
    August 27, 2008 at 18:51

    @ WHYS
    Thank You!!! Very informative.

  106. 107 Nick in USA
    August 27, 2008 at 18:53

    @ Julie P

    “Really, the best way to resolve this dispute to do it the Boris Yeltsen way: break out the vodka and see who can drink who under the table first.”

    We’ll call it Big Red Nose Negotiations. BRNN tactical strategy.

  107. 108 Sheikh Kafumba Dukuly
    August 27, 2008 at 18:54

    @DAN.
    I like to see words of those kind spewing from a Pro-America. Always right? That is a very faulty and flawy assertion. You have fought and attacked many nations unjustifiably including Iraq. What do you term as right? What makes you think that immoral America should be the trumpeter of morality? Spell me that speech.

  108. 109 Brett
    August 27, 2008 at 18:55

    @ Nick:
    How does one become the major force for good?

    Self declaration, then you go out and shove your ‘good’ down the throats of others.

  109. 110 Anthony
    August 27, 2008 at 18:57

    @ Brett & Nick

    Yup, if the Nazi’s would have won the war, they would have become the “major force for good” 🙂 Blue eyes and blond hair for alllllll!!!

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  110. 111 Daisy
    August 27, 2008 at 18:58

    @ Dan

    “Barbaric behavior” is definately about Georgians, not Russians, you got a sick confusion here. Don’t try to teach us the things you learned from tv, try to think for yourself if you can.

  111. 112 Doug
    August 27, 2008 at 18:58

    Holy Cow! This is the most hysterical garbage I’ve ever heard in my life. If the Bush Administration was so psychotically maximalist in its policy, the two parties could sit down and come up with a COMPROMISE. Kosovo need to be recognized as as serious breach of the modus operandi amongst nation-states since 1945, and our blatant refusal to consider the Russian point of view isn’t just bad faith on our part, but it’s pushing them to react in a much more forceful manner than it would under normal circumstances. America has threatened the world with preemptive warfare and unilaterally recognized Kosovo without security council approval. What do you expect them to do?

  112. 113 Marija Liudvika Rutkauskaite
    August 27, 2008 at 19:00

    Hello!

    Thank you for your e-mail. With respect to the question whether it is time to isolate Russia, the answer might be – let Russia wait, and this would be only normal, until Georgia declares the seceded states independent. The world might exert its power on Russia to make it wait and isolate it if necessary for its hasty step, to say the least. With its tanks to Georgia, this state has earned what cannot be employed against it in a nuclear world and it has to be shown its place. Thank you.

    Marija Liudvika Rutkauskaite

  113. 114 Jens
    August 27, 2008 at 19:00

    one of the problems is that in the usa many things are just seen as black and white, while ignoring the many shades of grey. all this is fed by polarized media outlets. just listen to the AM waves and hear the right and left radio stations. there is no middle ground at all. it’s either left or right and they attack one another in the same histerical way. we will only solve these problems if we deal with the shades of grey, and not polarize the nation and the world. unfortunatly the self proclaimed uniter has divided the world in the most dramatic way.

  114. 115 Nick in USA
    August 27, 2008 at 19:02

    @ Brett

    It’s that easy? Then I would like to announce that I am a force for good to all WHYS members. For starters: Mark, I will need to be taking your house. You still serve the queen and thus tyranny, and I’m a force for good, so I’ll be waiting for you to give me the keys. It’s just a coincidence that I’ve always wanted to move to Canada. Don’t question it, I’m a major force for good.

  115. 116 Adrian
    August 27, 2008 at 19:03

    Now that the Americans hove opened the “pandoras box” of premptive (and primarily unilateral) military action for perceived threats (re: Iraq), how can they seriously suggest taking any action against Russia. Maybe the world should look at isolating the US as well!

  116. 117 Dan
    August 27, 2008 at 19:07

    @ Sheikh Kafumba Dukuly & Anthony
    The Nazi’s could NEVER be or have become a force for good. They were pure evil.
    No one is saying thet the USA is perfect…there is NO perfect nation. Also you do not state any country or give any evidence of a nation attacked unjustly.
    Attacking Iraq, while stupid, was a UN sanctioned war. It was the US military that removed Saddam and not Andorra as we have the military and the strength.
    If you think America is immoral then I can only imagine how poorly you think of the Islamic nations that practice medieval brutality or Darfur, or Pol Pot or a legion of other countries.
    Who is your perfect nation? Certainly not Russia who murdered over 100 million of its own people since 1917.

  117. 118 Jens
    August 27, 2008 at 19:08

    @ adrian,

    are we not already isolated thanks to the last 8 years of administration?????

  118. August 27, 2008 at 19:10

    Any country that produces oil in large amounts today has a dictator or a not so very democratic head of state. (higher the oil price more undemocratic it becomes). Russia is currently wagging its tail since it has a lot of money now.
    If people start switching to cleaner power soon and stop depending on foreign oil, the tail wagging will stop.

  119. 120 Nick in USA
    August 27, 2008 at 19:12

    @ Jens

    “one of the problems is that in the usa many things are just seen as black and white, while ignoring the many shades of grey.”

    I know I’m beating a dead horse with this one, but instant run-off elections would do wonders in this regard. The world is not right or left.This blog proves that point. There are only a few people on WHYS who have strong right or left tendencies (fed by the media). Everyone else likes to see things how they really are without making decisions before all the facts have come in. That’s what makes WHYS so wonderful.

  120. 121 Nitya
    August 27, 2008 at 19:13

    This is a classic example of modern day double standards. We allow the United States to invade Iraq with no proven reason, with little or no real lashback from the international community. The response to Russia’s recognition of South Ossetia and Abkhazia is somewhat uncalled for, given the international community’s biased acceptance of the US occupation of Iraq, the accepted situation in Zimbabwe, Kosovo, the bullying of Iran…………….the list goes on. I would like to live in a world not run by the United States for one day of my life and see what real fair play is like.

  121. August 27, 2008 at 19:15

    Osetia and Abkhazia are parts of Georgia. The day would come when Georgia, Ukraine, Latvia, Lithuania and other would become part of NATO. Do you people think that they need the permission from Russia and Vladimir? Is Russia the ultimate authority over free nations? Is Russia suffering from a communist syndrome and their desire to return the old USSR? Is Vladimir an Adolf Hitler want to be?

    Russia has no power or authority over the Georgia proper and more over they have no authority in the decision making over Osetia and Abkhazia. Russia doesn’t have a president, to the contrary Russia has a puppet for president. A nobody. The people of Russia need to have cojones and elect ea real democratic president and remove the little Hitler, Vladimir.

  122. 123 Anthony
    August 27, 2008 at 19:15

    @ Dan

    ANY VIEW, even ones like the Nazi’s, that is believed by the most of the world, is the good force. Just like when women were married at 10 all around the world back in the day. Now thats gross and disgusting. If the Nazi’s started winning more and more, and the mojority of the world thought that only White was good, then that would have been the good force. Just like with communism and democracy. I prefer one, and think the other is horrid and evil, but if 90% of the world was communist, then I would be the evil wacko.

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  123. 124 Mark
    August 27, 2008 at 19:21

    Hmm if your own house is in trouble (This New world Order economics systems) would it be in their interest (divivdned lovers) to rage war (WWIII) in the name in deliverance from tyranny. Since the fall of the USSR , sovereign countries’ systems ; socials , politicals & economics have been highjack by a small utopians interest group (divivdend lovers) in the name of peace they have wage proxies wars unabling them to controles regional resources.

    These economics systems are on the brink of the abyss where social status dictate their importance & influence and garanties their continuanity to make sure their interest & way of life are protected not for the commun goods but for a few self -centered egocentric ideologists.

    Russia has awoke …the bear is out from hibernation perhaps clobal warming has also somthing to do with it…

    May God Bless this New World Order’s Economics

    In only God I trust

  124. 125 Henry
    August 27, 2008 at 19:24

    I think that the time for diplomacy is over, its time to start dropping bombs on the russian military presence in the independent state of Georgia. We’ll clear’em out that way, If they want to start the cold war again, then bring it on.

  125. 126 Mark
    August 27, 2008 at 19:24

    Hmm if your own house is in trouble (This New world Order economics systems) would it be in their interest (divivdend lovers) to rage war (WWIII) in the name of deliverance from tyranny. Since the fall of the USSR , sovereign countries’ systems ; socials , politicals & economics have been highjack by a small utopians interest group (divivdend lovers) in the name of peace they have wage proxies wars unabling them to controles regional resources.

    These economics systems are on the brink of the abyss where social status dictate their importance , influence & guaranties their continuanity to make sure their interest & way of life are protected, not for the commun goods but for a few self -centered egocentric ideologists.

    Russia has awoke …the bear is out from hibernation perhaps global warming has also somthing to do with it…

    May God Bless this New World Order’s Economics

    In only God I trust

  126. 127 Nick in USA
    August 27, 2008 at 19:24

    @ Dan

    “Attacking Iraq, while stupid, was a UN sanctioned war.”

    Really? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3661134.stm
    From what I understand the USA’s decision to go into Iraq was not in compliance with the UN.

  127. 128 Nick in USA
    August 27, 2008 at 19:25

    @ Dan

    “Attacking Iraq, while stupid, was a UN sanctioned war.”

    Really? “http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3661134.stm”
    From what I understand the USA’s decision to go into Iraq was not in compliance with the UN.

  128. 129 Hugh
    August 27, 2008 at 19:25

    I think that it is ridiculous that the world is talking about isolating Russia when the US has done this time and time again. Look at Iraq, was the world talking about isolating the US? No. So I don’t blame Russia for following “the leaders of the free world, The US.”

  129. 130 Andre
    August 27, 2008 at 19:26

    The West must understand that it has no significant leverage over the Russians. We cannot seriously damage their economy without them doing the same to us by cutting off energy supplies to Europe and dumping their US dollar reserves onto the open. We have to sit down with the Russians and try to agree how to deal with minority populations within Europe. We need Russia as a full and cooperative European partner.

  130. 131 Alfons
    August 27, 2008 at 19:27

    Some uncertainty prevails in the markets around and in Russia, not because investors support political struggles, but because they need to make sure their profit. If Russia continues growing, the investors will further deal with them despite any political decision. Unlike, Georgia seems to represent only expenditures for Western countries, no revenues could be expected, not even an interesting market. Early or later, the interest will move to there where the money is being generated

  131. 132 Eric Swenson
    August 27, 2008 at 19:29

    By isolating Russia the west will only increase russia’s ties to Iran, Syria, Venezuela, Cuba and all the other dictatorial regimes around the world.

  132. 133 Anahit Markosian
    August 27, 2008 at 19:30

    This is appalling: the one who needs to be isolated is Saakashvily – his government is NOT a democracy, it is a regime which carries out extreme anti minority politics.

    And it is being backed up by the west for the promise to provide them place for military bases.

    Being an Armenian, I personally do not want ANY NATO presence in the region. And yes, I would rather welcome Russia’s presence which can at least guarantee the safety of Armenian minority in Georgia.

  133. 134 Solomon
    August 27, 2008 at 19:33

    Let’s substitute the old days of Germany under Adolfo Hitter for the new trouble arising with Russia under Vladimir Puton. Now let’s us imaging for a moment that Puton is the new Hitler or a loose canon. Would you isolate Russia As Soon As possible or shall we wait for Russia to become like the old Soviets Socialist Republics or even beyond that, like the resurrection of Adolfo Hitler in Vladimir Puton.

    Who cares about oil or any other source of energy if Russia or other country decides to destroy another nation, the people and their freedom.

  134. 135 Paul
    August 27, 2008 at 19:36

    I am wondering why all the western media outlets are ignoring the fact that Georgia was the aggressor here and Russia came to the rescue of this region. The fact is that the USA is the country that needs the rest of the world right now. The free world should smarten up and Isolate the US government to bring them back in line.

  135. 136 Bert
    August 27, 2008 at 19:36

    All Russia has to do, to see the folly of its ways, is look at itself, when it sent troops into Chechnya. How was that any different from what Georgia did with respect to South Ossetia?

    The general rule seems so simple: hands off, if the problem is across a border. Instead, Russia needed a pretext to invade Georgia, and they used this South Ossetia uprising as the excuse.

    I think this is all tied in with Russia not wanting to accept that the neighboring countries it oppressed for so many decades are now wanting to join up with the West. South Ossetia gave them a way to show the others that “they will be put in their place.” How sophomoric.

    All would be so simple, except for the fact that the US used a similar trumped-up pretext to invade Iraq in 2003. I suppose that realization should keep people in the US, at least, from becoming too indignant and one-sided on this Georgia fiasco.

  136. 137 Alan
    August 27, 2008 at 19:36

    We are one world! We need to work together if we are to survive and prosper as a race! Nationality aside! We need to cooperate with each other!

    Russia should have work a diplomatic solution with Georgia and Georgia should smarter in it’s dealings with the break away republics.

  137. 138 mikdad in kenya
    August 27, 2008 at 19:37

    America has double standard they ocupy iraq, afganstan, israel ocupy palestine, none are isolated so why isolate russia USA stop hypocracy mikdad in kenya msa

  138. 139 Tais
    August 27, 2008 at 19:38

    Isolation is impossible… Or at least not to the extent that some people would like it to be.
    There’s a great article by Andrew Meier http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-meier20-2008aug20,0,7770162.story that touches on that.
    Plus, business will be business. When people are used to making a lot of money, they will continue.

  139. August 27, 2008 at 19:38

    The USA is an expert at kicking someone when they are down, they have been the world’s schoolyard bully for years.
    Russia’s reaction has been like a sleeping bear, that has been poked in the eye over a period of time while it slept.
    The bear gets poked in the eye and it shows it’s displease then goes back to sleep, as the eye poking continues it increasingly shows it’s displeasure until one day it attacks and then it is condemned for being to aggressive.
    Russia has been poked in the eye since the fall of the USSR, but then comes Putin into the picture and he starts sending signals of Russia’s displeasure of being poked in the eye, but as usual the west(USA and England) ignored the warnings and continued to poke Russia in the eye until Russia finally said enough of this bully and now it is being called the aggressor.
    The USA has been giving China a verbal poke it the eye for a few years now and sooner then later China will also stand up and say enough is enough.

    Do not be surprised if Russia and China do not form an economic and military alliance in the near future.
    China and Russia must both be planning how they can send all the oil and gas that is going to the EU now, to China. China would more then welcome as much as it can receive form Russia.

  140. 141 Gary in Canada
    August 27, 2008 at 19:38

    The USA is an expert at kicking someone when they are down, they have been the world’s schoolyard bully for years.
    Russia’s reaction has been like a sleeping bear, that has been poked in the eye over a period of time while it slept.
    The bear gets poked in the eye and it shows it’s displease then goes back to sleep, as the eye poking continues it increasingly shows it’s displeasure until one day it attacks and then it is condemned for being to aggressive.
    Russia has been poked in the eye since the fall of the USSR, but then comes Putin into the picture and he starts sending signals of Russia’s displeasure of being poked in the eye, but as usual the west(USA and England) ignored the warnings and continued to poke Russia in the eye until Russia finally said enough of this bully and now it is being called the aggressor.

  141. 142 Lee
    August 27, 2008 at 19:38

    The question of whether or not international nations should attempt to or begin to isolate Russia seems a bit contradictory. The recent conflict between Russia and Georgia had much to do with the country of Eussia’s own self serving interest. Why not, the United States has done and continues to do what it pleases around the world without regard to other nations (e.g. preemptive wars against foreign nations to impose regime change). Russia has used it unilateral power to force its will much like the United States continues to do right now. Should the U.S. be isolated too?

  142. 143 Rui
    August 27, 2008 at 19:39

    If we can isolate Russia, why we cannot isolate USA, UK, or all powerful countries who invaded small countries before? We should face the fact. We cannot isolate any strong, powerful countries.

  143. 144 Mason
    August 27, 2008 at 19:39

    It is not realistic to isolate Russia, they are too entwined in the global economy….Europe needs their oil, there are billions of dollars in business investment in the country, from all over the world that flowed into the country after the Soviet Union fell….the only answer is to keep the diplomacy going, militarily the Russians can not keep up with the West, their army is antiquated, they can only pick on small countries, and use its possession of Nuclear Weapons to prevent military action against it; but “The West” must also alter its own aggressive foreign policy before it points the finger at Russia.

  144. 145 Arinzè Ikeli from Nigeria.
    August 27, 2008 at 19:40

    Why do we talk about isolating russia? the Russians are only proving that they’re a force to be reckoned with like the U.S have been doing. Arinzè Ikeli from Nigeria.

  145. 146 Yego in Somalia
    August 27, 2008 at 19:40

    The isolation of Rusia is meaningless in my continent Africa. Poverty, corruption and bad governance turns our attention from Russia or Georgia.

  146. 147 Anahit
    August 27, 2008 at 19:41

    Russia schould not be isolated. And it could not been isolated too – let’s get real. Instead lets isolated Caucasus from NATO and from the West’s attempts to establish its military presence there.

  147. 148 ATHIAN ATHIAN DUT in Kampala, Uganda
    August 27, 2008 at 19:42

    I think my country Sudan should isolate and change its relations with Russia, though it will have no any negative effect because Sudan has nothing to offer to Russia.

  148. 149 Text
    August 27, 2008 at 19:42

    Go Russia Go. Eat your hearts out europe and america.

  149. 150 Albert
    August 27, 2008 at 19:42

    Russia objects about Georgia’s handling of South Ossetia EXACTLY the same as others have objected about their handling of Chechnya. Too bad, Russia. When the problem is in another country’s boundaries, hands off.

    I don’t think the Russians should have anything to say about defensive missiles in Poland, the Ukraine, or anywhere else.

    Then again, unfortunately the US did its own invasion for no obvious good reason, so I suppose it’s not something the US can get overly indignant about.

  150. 151 Mathew
    August 27, 2008 at 19:43

    Russia must be isolated and punished unless they recant. If they want to break up Georgia, then the Chechnians should also choose their freedom. What Russia has done is unpardonable and unacceptable.

  151. 152 Text
    August 27, 2008 at 19:43

    isolating Russia. Its a sickening fantasy. RUSSIA Is an important global player- economically and militarily. The west set the bar this low. IRAQ,the Horrendous Palestine nightmare.and lately Kosovo.RUSSIA is secure.and Russia knows it.thank you

  152. 153 Adama in Ghana
    August 27, 2008 at 19:44

    That is what the world has become.The rich and powerful nations will always bully poor and weak nations.

  153. 154 Moses from Nigeria.
    August 27, 2008 at 19:44

    If isolation or any other action would affect Russia now is the time to do it.

  154. 155 Maina
    August 27, 2008 at 19:45

    RUSSIA Is an important global prayer-economically and militarily.the west set the bar this low.IRAQ,the Horrendous Palestine nightmare.and lately Kosovo.RUSSIA is secure.and Russia knows it.

  155. 156 Adama in Ghana
    August 27, 2008 at 19:47

    That is what the world has become.The rich and powerful nations will always bully poor and weak nations.

  156. 157 Fidelis in Lagos
    August 27, 2008 at 19:49

    If there is any thing, it is the west that is brewing a cold war in the backyard of Russia. It is left for the west to withdraw their ships from the black sea to bring peace to the region.

  157. 158 Dan
    August 27, 2008 at 19:50

    @ Nick in USA
    “Sigh……….”
    WASHINGTON (CNN) — In a major victory for the White House, the Senate early Friday voted 77-23 to authorize President Bush to attack Iraq if Saddam Hussein refuses to give up weapons of mass destruction as required by U.N. resolutions.
    I know you want Bush’s blood on a slab but …….

  158. 159 Dan
    August 27, 2008 at 19:54

    @ Anthony
    If the world was Communist I would be an “evil wacko” along with you.
    When the Nazi’s marched into any country just like the Russians brutalized Georgia, NO ONE like them or thought they were there for good.
    While certain dictators use the Russians to gain more power, almost no nation likes the Russians. This is something Russian citizens need to come to grips with. Then they can overthrow their corrupt leaders.

  159. 160 Jonathan
    August 27, 2008 at 19:54

    @Will 4:40 p.m. —

    > “…It is about time that Europe told the US to bog off and that they can deal with this situation.” What delightful news!

    In this last century, Europe dragged the US into two huge wars. Then the US sheltered Europeans from the embrace of the big brown bear during 40 years of cold war. Then came the nasty business of the Serbian thugs.

    After a century of reluctant and immense expenditure of American blood and treasure made necessary by the European tireless taste for slaughter, I think America will be deee-lighted to “bog off” now that Europe can finally “deal with a situation.” By all means, then, knock yerselves out. Congratulations! Snuggle up to the bear, now reliably warm and cuddly. We’ll be “bogging off” now, goodbye.

    Oh–since you ask, no, I don’t know how “silly it looks” to send “‘humanitarian aid'” in a Coast Guard cutter. Enlighten me. How silly does it look, and why does it matter how silly it looks, and why does “humanitarian aid” merit a set of ironic quotes from you?

  160. 161 Sheikh Kafumba Dukuly
    August 27, 2008 at 19:59

    @DAN.
    Nick in the USA is ahead of me on that.
    Attacking Iraq, while stupid, was a UN sanctioned war.
    Please send me a link to read the UN Resolution that sanctioned the war in Iraq. I will be very grateful for your resourceful. Be not deceive, while it is true that to a larger extent, the UN operates at the whims and caprices of America, America went to Iraq on its own accord or maybe for OIL.

  161. 162 Texts
    August 27, 2008 at 20:00

    Isolation wil strenthen Russia/China axis. The west wil loose out. Terrorism wil increase.

  162. 163 Dave in Nigeria
    August 27, 2008 at 20:01

    Russia is simply implementing her self-expansion or extension policy and needs to be contained & condemned.

  163. 164 Nick in USA
    August 27, 2008 at 20:05

    @ Dan

    Does the senate vote = UN sanctioned war? I don’t want GWB’s head on a slab. He’s a pawn, nothing more. Claiming a senate vote in favor means nothing to me. The senate is largely inoperable in it’s current state.

  164. 165 steve
    August 27, 2008 at 20:07

    @ Will

    First, the first US ship to arrive was a DDG, the McFaul. Second, the “coast guard cutter” probably could sink the entire Canadian navy. So you complain about the kind of ships we send aid on?

    If europe wants the US to butt out, then Europeans can get killed and not expect americans to die in the next war europeans start. I think enough Americans have died for Europe.

  165. 166 Jonathan
    August 27, 2008 at 20:13

    @Steve–

    Thanks—I knew there was a way to say what I was saying in half the space; I just couldn’t figure it out.

  166. 167 Jonathan
    August 27, 2008 at 20:15

    @Sheikh KD–

    Yawn, that one again? US invaded Iraq for oil?

    THEN WHERE’S THE OIL?

    We’re not taking it. Were paying prices that make our ears bleed.

  167. 168 Dan
    August 27, 2008 at 20:17

    @ Sheikh Kafumba Dukuly
    Let’s see…I pay $4/gal for gas. The most foolish argument is that we went to war for oil. China signed the big oil contract with Iraq. can we finally put an end to nonsense?
    There were multiple UN sanctions demanding Iraq give up its WMD’s. It turned out Saddam had none but Iran believed he did and that kept Iran in a box. Bush opened that box. Sure Bush screwed up but EVERY intelligence service said Saddam had WMD’s.
    Lastly for Nick…All of Congress is inoperable as everyone is playing politics rather than do their job. That gives defacto dictatorial powers to Bush.

  168. 169 Jonathan
    August 27, 2008 at 20:21

    @Albert–

    Oh, nonsense. The US invaded one country for no good reason. Russia incorporated half of Europe and strangled it over the course of 40 whole years. I think the US can safely still afford some slight degree of moral superiority over Russia. Good Lord. Do you really imagine us to be morally equivalent? How quickly we forget, or never bothered to learn.

  169. 170 Bert
    August 27, 2008 at 20:21

    The 2003 invasion of Iraq, I think now and thought then, would bring about just the type of long-term problem for US foreign policy as we are seeing now. It weakens the position the US can take against international bullies. How very annoying.

    The UN did not sanction the invasion of Iraq. The UN was happy to let its other measures work to keep Iraq at bay. So no way can the UN be used as any facile excuse now. Iraq 2003 was a unilateral US decision.

    When Iraq tried to annex Kuwait, the situation was more clear cut for US foreign policy. Afghanistan was also justifiable, since that was not a US invasion, and the attacks on 9/11 had come from Afghanistan.

    Anyway, isolating Russia is unlikely to work. It just frosts me that the US lost its moral standing. And that those who orchestrated the whole mess couldn’t predict the just this type of outcome.

  170. 171 steve
    August 27, 2008 at 20:25

    @ Jonathan

    Leftie logic states that only the US can do wrong, and that all nations, except responsible western nations, should be allowed to have nuclear weapons. So USA shouldn’t be allowed to have nuclear weapons, but Iran should be allowed to.

    Again, ask anyone in E. Europe their opinion of Russia, and 95% will tell you they DESPISE Russia and Russians.

  171. 172 Amadeo
    August 27, 2008 at 20:28

    a must read and thanx to ave the time.

    the power of israeli lobby is an important component of keeping americans in the dark.

    As a result of the US media’s one-sided coverage, few Americans are aware that for decades Israel has been ethnically cleansing Palestinians from their homes and lands under protection of America’s veto in the United Nations. Instead, the dispossessed Palestinians are portrayed as mindless terrorists who attack innocent Israel.
    The failure of the American media is again evident in the coverage of the Georgian-Russian conflict. The US media presented the conflict as a Russian invasion of Georgia, whereas in actual fact the American and Israeli trained and equipped Georgian military launched a sneak attack to kill and to drive the Russian population out of South Ossetia, a separatist province.

    Americans have become perfect subjects for George Orwell’s Big Brother. They sit stupidly in front of the TV news or the New York Times or Washington Post and absorb the lies fed to them. What is wrong with Americans? Why do they put up with it?

    Americans no longer have a government that is for the people and by the people. They have a government for and by special interests and an insane ideology.

  172. 173 John LaGrua/New York
    August 27, 2008 at 20:29

    Bush has squandered the moral capacity of the US to influence events such as Georgia .The Russians look with disdain on this fool and are aware that there is little the US or EU can do to thwart their adventurism.The very idea of isolating Russia is counterproductive when only dialogue is the option .Rice wanders aimlessly from one failure to another in a busy work charade ,finger waving at the Russians over Georgia ,while the Isreali ‘s continue to build more illegal settlements ;the No., Koreans drag their feet on nukes and Iran ignores threats about its nuclear work.The world sees the US as impotent without resort to nuclear war with Russians The neo-cons who are willing to fight enemies cnjured up for their private agenda with the last US kid frm the provinces; talk tough but but must realize that they have shot their their bolt in Iraq .Without a military draft the US is out of the war business and any US politician who suggest that woud be hung by his /her thumbs in Lafayette Square in Washingfton Iraq and this Russian may be a blessing in disguise ending the US delusion of miitary solutions to complex political problems.

  173. 174 Dan
    August 27, 2008 at 20:34

    @ Amadeo
    Thanks my sides are still hurting from laughing so very hard. Wonderful comedy routine. You need to be on stage.

  174. 175 Sam
    August 27, 2008 at 20:41

    I think a big question we never addressed that probably causes a lot of problems is this: when it is appropriate for a region to seceed from it’s mother state? We should remember that S. Ossetia and Abkhazia have been trying to declare independence from Georgia.

    Of course, Russia obviously only recognizes those regions’ independence so it can either annex them later or at the very least weaken Georgia. However, if the world were to recognize their independence, then we would be on the side of Russia, viewing the military presence of Georgia in S. Ossetia and Abkhazia as an invasion by Georgia of sovereign nations.

    Here’s my point: I agree that Russia’s government (headed by Putin) is basically a big bully suffering from failed-communist bitterness and delusions. However, the question remains: Why doesn’t the world recognize the independence of these two regions? And why should or shouldn’t we?

  175. 176 Dan
    August 27, 2008 at 20:48

    @ Sam
    There were negotiations between South Ossetia & Georgia that were moving along well. South Ossetia will need Georgia’s ports to be a successful country.
    Russia saw this as a threat with another country rejecting Russia and was compelled to invade to try to maintain their manhood.

  176. 177 Nick in USA
    August 27, 2008 at 21:00

    @ Jonathan

    “Do you really imagine us to be morally equivalent?”

    No, but does that affect the comparison he made? A “good” country doing a bad thing and a “bad” country doing a bad thing are both countries doing a bad thing.

  177. 178 Nick in USA
    August 27, 2008 at 21:03

    @ Dan

    “There were negotiations between South Ossetia & Georgia that were moving along well. South Ossetia will need Georgia’s ports to be a successful country.”

    Really? They were going so well that Georgia found the need to send troops in to attack separatists?

  178. 179 Jonathan
    August 27, 2008 at 21:04

    @Nick, @Brett, et alia–

    I wasn’t able to hang around and see your messages until now. No, sorry, I’m not a history teacher. You’ll have to do your own homework. Did you really expect me to teach you an outline of the history of the world over the last centur, or provide a convenient link? I can’t imagine how anyone could have managed NOT to learn it, but I didn’t mean to promise I could teach it. My point was simply that conversation is so very much more rewarding and productive and interesting when the people engaged in it have some idea of what they’re talking about. I didn’t mean to insult.

    OK: Russia was for most of the 20th century a monstrous communist empire that engulfed and strangled half of Europe. Dictatorship. Poverty. Gulag archipelago. The US was and is a democracy, was never an empire, repeatedly came to the aid of Europe at enormous cost, and then, significantly, NOT occupying and annexing western europe, but actually subsidizing the former enemies, helping everyone up, dusting them off, and coming back home.

    That is one small illustration of one small instance of one reason why it’s juvenile and decadent to assert anything like moral equivalance between Russia and the US. Iraq does not negate a whole century of scores of countries and millions of bodies. In the history of Russia, Iraq would barely qualify for a footnote. Yeesh.

  179. 180 Jonathan
    August 27, 2008 at 21:06

    @Steve

    Steve, good buddy, I agree with you here. Treasure the moment; it happens all too rarely, and my jaw is clenched painfully, but yes, dead-on!

  180. 181 Marty Lee
    August 27, 2008 at 21:07

    Can’t believe that the question was asked in the first place.

    NATO and US lead provocations have been going up in pace since the end of the last cold war. NATO at that time promise the then USSR that it would not expands its sphere of influence and operations if the USSR breaks up.

    That promise was broken and as subsequent USA president begins to evolve NATO new mission in the post cold war era is to try to absorb as many former USSR states into its folds. Clearly NATO have been provocative. Clearly NATO is a relic from the last cold war. How can anyone forget that ?

    Did NATO disband after the USSR pose little threat as in underwent a hard and sometimes bloody transition into democracy ? No. Fact remains it expanded further with New members and the doctrine of regime change have been adopted into part of its rhetoric and policies.

    Russia decision to recognize the former breakaway states in Georgia is based on the principles of democracy as voted by their representative in parliament. Yes mock Russia, but when the UN refuse to legitimize American / Nato lead invasion of Iraq on a false pretext of removing the chemical stash, is it acting according to Intentional standards of democracy ?

    Why didn’t NATO condemn the invasion of Georgia into South Ossetia when clearly all evidence shows that Georgians fire the first shot ? But they will send their troops into Bosnia Herzegovina during the clinton years to maintain the peace by reducing Russian influence there ?

    Why is the US even planning a veto on any kind of Russian move to have their case be brought up to the UN security council to introduce sanctions against Georgia ?

    Clearly, Russian are still being viewed by NATO as an adversary. And the smugness of it all to claim that what the Western Europeans have are the gold standards of democracy and what Russia have is a mock republic. Such sheer arrogance is telling of the hypocrisy and double standards that is being practise by the nice nations of NATO.

    The conclusion is stark. The last cold war never did end.

    If it did, NATO would have been disbanded when Russia went democratic. It was just in thaw and the warmongers from the civilized state of NATO are all clearly yearning for a showdown by suggesting an ISOLATIONIST POLICY to force Russia to comply. Thats diplomatic aggression and the cold war rhetoric, and the first volley was being fired by the latest Poster boy of NATO, president Saakashvili himself who by the way is educated in Columbia Uni in New York.

    It sees that the georgian boy wonder did manage to get his feet wet into the networks of the “oldboys” network afterall.

    War is always profitable to the west who happens to have an arms industry that needs some boosting of sales.

  181. 182 Jonathan
    August 27, 2008 at 21:07

    Sorry nick it’s been a bit of a busy time; can you give me the orignal reference?

  182. 183 Daisy
    August 27, 2008 at 21:09

    @ Dan

    “There were negotiations between South Ossetia & Georgia that were moving along well.” If the negotiations were moving that well why Georgia decided to kill them all all of a sudden?

  183. 184 Jonathan
    August 27, 2008 at 21:17

    OK, nick, got it. Albert said essentially US can’t get indignant about what Russia does because we did a naughty in Iraq.

    My point was and is that, relative to Russia, the US surely has a monumental reservoir of goodwill and good acts and moral authority built over a century. Iraq is a blip, a footnote. Only America would agonize so much as to imagine its entire history besmirched and squandered by one misadventure. Be assured that Russia has committed a thousand Iraq-sized atrocities. Theyre not accustomed to beating themselves up about them, is all. That testifies to their cynicism, not to their proud record.

    We have PLENTY of room and reason and right to be indignant about what Russia does. We just finished 40 years and untold billions of dollars keeping ourselves, and the rest of the world, safe from Russia’s expansionist, imperialist hostility. It was an empire.

    On the very very very simplest level, yeah, sure, two bad things. But so what?

  184. 185 Marty Lee
    August 27, 2008 at 21:18

    @Daisy.

    Well said. I think Saakashvili might have pick up that tactic from the Japanese when the bomb the US fleet in Hawaii while sending its diplomat to Washington to make peace in WW2.

    Surely he deserves every singe ounce of international condemnation.

    But no, NATO would choose to ignite the old cold war animosity to portray the Russians as “evil” doers and choose to seal a missile base pact with Poland.

    And NATO accuse Russia of Bullying Georgia. What an utter joke and farce this is.

  185. 186 Dan
    August 27, 2008 at 21:21

    @ Daisey & Nick in USA
    Conflict in South Ossetia was the Russians murdering innocents. The Georgia South Ossetia conflict as both parties, prodded by the USA, saw no future in further killings. It was better to talk. Ultimately that is how Northern Ireland and Egypt-Israel, Israel-Jordan came to peace
    Russians acting like barbarians sent in their so called military (hooligans) to rape the country.
    Georgia & South Ossetia and other countries want to align with the West as they see nothing of value in Russia.

  186. 187 barrie watson
    August 27, 2008 at 21:30

    the situation in georgien seems to have shocked most European politicians even though it was something that was waiting to happen this seems to be a typical european way of doing things ( just dont look it will go away on its own ) and what ever our big brother says America, must be right. russia has been treated very badly from america and europe for a long time we haven’t listened to their feelings or needs , America did not want them in nato but have been talking the surrounding countries into joining nato with countries like Georgien and its politicians that think they are cowboys I think if this happened to me I would feel unsafe, stationing weapons in russian,s back yard and using double standards all over the world and the European,s follow like sheep unable to make there own dissions I was reading an article in the German Zeit it said america can do what they wish because they are big enough and have a strong army but as we see the russian bear can also bite, and I begin to think it is not so bad to have a country strong enough to say stop and no further. I don,t think the european,s will be able to be strong enough. and maybe if we were a little friendly to russia and not act like sheep we could all live happy ever after.

    Barrie Watson Germany

  187. 188 Anthony
    August 27, 2008 at 21:35

    @ Jessica and Nick

    I think because of McCains age, a lot more people are worried about who his vice will be.

    I heard McCain eats dinner at 4:30 everyday at Home Town Buffet.

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  188. 189 Daisy
    August 27, 2008 at 21:38

    What a twist! So now South Ossetia sees the value in Georgia & the West? Go and look at least through today’s papers. If Russia wouldn’t send the troops there, there would be simply no one to save.

  189. August 27, 2008 at 22:20

    The government of the USA has NO moral, political, humanitarian or humanistic rights or freedom to speak on the Russia-Georgia conflict because:

    I. It has committed much more and much greater violations of international laws, territorial integrity, and sovereignty of overseas governments, and has threatened world brotherhood, security and peace more than anyone may accuse Russia of and I hear the USA government president and agents accuse Russia of. Should we forget how the USA government wrote a new international law verbally and militarily when it installed Rev. Fr. Aristide?

    The USA government is the mastermind, engineer or trigger behind what is happening between Russia and Georgia and, indeed the break up and economic failure of the USSR, for globalisation ends.

    2. The USA government is still virtually or really occupying Iraq, Afghanistan, Kosovo, and all the countries where it has military bases.

    3. The USA government has insisted that its military cannot be tried at the ICC for war crimes, using Article 98 to terrorise sovereign governments to defer to its freedom from justice and right to criminality.

    4. The European Union is the rightful organisation to deal with the situation.

    5. The present presence of the USA government in Georgia is provocation and aggression against Russia and amounts to occupation, as the USA is not in Europe and the government of the USA is not a member of the EU

    To European governments I ask: Where is your manhood, European Union spirit, and justice, if the foreign government of the USA has taken up your duty to European countries and rights to carry out this duty?

    Prince Awele Odor
    Lagos, Nigeria

  190. 191 Dan
    August 27, 2008 at 22:33

    @ Prince Awele Odor
    You forgot that the USA is responsible for the extinction of the dinosaurs, the great flood, the 10 plagues of Egypt, the death of Jesus, exploding stars, the vacuum of space and exploding stars…just to name a few.
    It is amazing that a country that has done so much for so many gets trashed by myopic people.

  191. 192 Bert
    August 27, 2008 at 22:43

    Again, what Russia did in Chechnya, to quell those uprisings, was far more serious than what Saakashvili did in South Ossetia. Did anyone invade Russia? In fact, thanks to the idiotic terrorist tactics of some Chechans responded with, the rest of the world did not react in a universally negative way then.

    I honestly don’t get those defending this Russian adventurism across borders, even if I don’t see the US being squeaky clean either, on so-called “nation building” adventures.

    NATO membership and Patriot missiles are no threat to Russia. They should not be surprised that countries such as Georgia, Poland, the Czechs and Slovaks, Ukraine, and so on, are happy to get the heck as far away from Russian influence as they credibly can. Those are the long term effects of overt and shameless repression. This has nothing to do with US “provocation.” This is, instead, called “getting what was coming to you.”

  192. 193 Mel Snyder
    August 27, 2008 at 22:51

    As in the Middle East, the Balkans, and Georgia, most parties choose the starting point that meets their political needs. In the West Bank and Gaza, it’s 1967 for the Arabs and 1948 for the Israelis. In South Ossetia, it’s August 2008 for the Russians, and the post-1992 period for the Georgians,

    What seems to be missing is an appreciation for how Russia treated South Ossetia much the way Israel has treated the West Bank, Albania treated Kosovo, and the Americans treated the Mexican territory known today as Texas. In each case, an influx of outsiders slowly and – in some cases, even nonviolently – changed the demographics. Finally, a spark from one side or the other transforms the situation.

    The comparison between South Ossetia and the Sudeteland isn’t exact because the influx of Germans into that region was an accident of history on which Hitler simply capitalized. The influx of Russians into South Ossetia was part of a careful Russian plan. If the EU wasn’t so so willfully self-blinded by dependence on Russian energy, and the USA wasn’t deadened by Bush’s stupid belief he could trust Putin, this could have been foreseen – and the decision to either get close to the Georgians or warn them of our inability to rescue them – better known. Instead, as in Hungary in 1956, we created a circumstance of hope, and then defaulted, leaving a much more dangerous world and a more repressed state in our wake.

  193. 194 Dan
    August 27, 2008 at 23:20

    @ Mel Snyder
    Great analysis and absolutely correct view of Bush’s naivete. Russia set this conflict in motion 6 years ago after Bush said he “looked in Putin’s soul & the Russians knew they had an idiot in the Whitehouse.
    What I am not so certain of is the parallel between Israel/West Bank & Russia/South Ossetia. Can you explain that better?

  194. August 27, 2008 at 23:46

    Dan, if I understand you, because I am naturally frank, truth-living and morally committed to world affairs, just as Socretes was, I would say that it is unfortunate that we do not have men in goverment among the military and technological powers that matter in the world, and not that people are myopic.

    I have been bleeding with anger and disappointment that the government of the USA is yet to be looked at in the face and told that it it barbaric, utterly dissolute, godless and not fit to exist among civilised, honourable, noble, and peace-loving peole of the world.

    Prince Awele Odor
    Lagos, Nigeria

  195. 196 Dan
    August 28, 2008 at 00:05

    Just now, in the USA, the majority people have elected a minority person to lead the Democrat Party to possibly become President of the United States.
    To those people that see nothing but evil in the actions of the United States perhaps you can show us other countries that will put a minority up to lead the nation.
    Is Russia supporting a Chechnyan to become P.M. of Russia? Maybe the Palestinians would elect a Christian to lead them? Perhaps the Iranians will elect a Jew to replace Ahmadinejad.
    America is a great country precisely for what happened tonight and is why countries like Georgia, Ukraine etc flock to associate with us rather than a brutal oppressive regime next door.

  196. 197 Bert
    August 28, 2008 at 01:25

    I think Mel’s point was that they set up settlements in the West Bank, where Israeli settlers weren’t before, so now they have a reason go in to defend the settlers. Somewhat like Russia did, by giving Russian citizenship to those in South Ossetia who might have had Russian ethnic ties.

    Our friend from Nigeria ought to ask himself how he would have reacted if a foreign power found it necessary to invade Nigeria during Ojukwu’s Ibo rebellion in the late 1960s. I don’t remember too much peace-loving sentiment then. But no other country sent in tanks and troops to “save” the Ibos.

  197. 198 Tom
    August 28, 2008 at 01:59

    Show Russia that the west, and the east, could do without its energy then talk about isolating it. I don’t think isolation will work. Both the government and the Russian people already feel that they’re being isolated and bullied by the west. That means it’s a guarantee that isolation will only make the situation worse, not better. Russia will then become like Iran, only infinitely more dangerous.

  198. August 28, 2008 at 02:11

    Tom~

    Strange too that the U.S. would put missiles in Poland? It seems so arrogant, and unnecessary to put up a defense when there is no genuine threat.

  199. 200 Tom
    August 28, 2008 at 02:37

    @ portlandmike,

    That’s why it’s misleading to say that the Cold War is over or was “won”. It was clear that with the fall of communism the west still regards Russia as a long term threat. Hence the expansion of NATO and the military redeployment when Russia was weak. The Great Game is still being played out.

  200. August 28, 2008 at 03:59

    Tom

    Im more cynical, I believe that the U.S. has been pouring money into this technology since the Reagan years, and they want to deploy it. This administration manufactures threats in order to deploy arms and troops.

  201. August 28, 2008 at 06:27

    Solomon Urriola @

    “Valadamir” is loved in Russia and has the support of at least 95% of the people.

    Bush, Brown and many others would love that kind of support.

    So why is he so popular?

    Surely he’s doing something right?

    Mike

  202. 203 parth guragain
    August 28, 2008 at 07:03

    it is not time to isolate russia.since very long time big and powerful countries are using small countries to serve their intrest.so this case is also not different.georgia being western ally is being sopperted by west and break away state by russia.with independance of kosovo west have some what lost it’s credebility to these issue.it was georgia who attacked these breakaway states first.after facing russian attack they are crying foul ,which i think can’t be justified.besides this nato is keeping missile defence all around russia and what do we expect russia to do in all these senerio.west is somewhat right on there view but they have lost their case by their own actions.in this issue we are talking of russia,georgia and west but we are not talking about the breakaway states.world should also listen to them.any solution in this issue leaving these small states will not have any lasting effect so their view point should be considered.isolating russia will further complicate the issue.

  203. 204 parth guragain
    August 28, 2008 at 07:06

    before indipendance of kosovo it was explained by spain this will lead to many terrotial disputes in coming days so now europe is facing the consiquences.

  204. 205 Tom
    August 28, 2008 at 07:54

    @ portlandmike

    All national strategists have to identify threats and if possible to maintain a strategic balance, if not an advantage, over those threats. If this takes the deployment of a star war programme, an expansion of alliances, or an anti-missile defense shield, then these options have to be considered and deployed when the circumstance permits.

  205. 206 Harald
    August 28, 2008 at 09:20

    Interested – and disquieted – though I am, I shall have to stop listening to BBC coverage of the Caucasian conflicts.

    I am being bombarded, on a daily basis, with ready-made politicians’ phrases like “old-style imperialism”, “aggression”, “occupation” and the like.

    Why is it that no criticism of “old-style imperialism” was heard when the USA or the NATO attacked
    Yugoslavia
    Afghanistan
    Iraq

    or when little Georgia went forth to crush ethnic minorities, thus paving the way for Russian incursions into Georgia?

  206. 207 David
    August 28, 2008 at 10:21

    Isolate Rusia!!!

    If you do not have a diplomatic bagaining powere then Isolate Russia and we will see who surrenders first.

  207. 208 Equal Nations
    August 28, 2008 at 15:01

    WHy is the EU and USA so worried about what Russia and Georgia. There are similar wars brewing in Africa. I dont see military ships ruSHING to ports on Africa’s west coast or to Zimbabwe.
    The reason is obvious.
    Pipelines and oil. Unless protecting ‘white’ folk is more important than any other colour.
    ThanQ Russia for exposing some Developed Nations repeat agenda.
    And Russia, now is in a position to show her biceps. Perhaps this will stop the USA from steamrolling its wish all over the world. Teaching discipline is good though I hate seeing innocent people suffer while the commanders converse in resorts.

  208. 209 Equal Nations
    August 28, 2008 at 15:04

    WHy is the EU and USA so worried about what Russia and Georgia do about the newly recognised independent nations.

    The above must read as.

  209. 210 Vitaly
    August 28, 2008 at 15:15

    @ Dan

    “perhaps you can show us other countries that will put a minority up to lead the nation”

    Sure, it’s USSR: Stalin was a giorgian (Dgugashvily is his real surname) and Khruschev was an ukrainian.

    Black man O’Bama is just dem’s PR-play.

  210. 211 innocent
    September 2, 2008 at 14:50

    poor americans are not aware or afraid of the USSR reunion. russians are more inteligent than ever. usa is a fat woman to russia now a thin man. it is the penis that determines who will fuck the other.

  211. 212 innocent
    September 2, 2008 at 14:59

    i mean russia is a natural superpower that will always force its way to become powerfull in the world. no one can prevent more inteligent russians from their wishes for she will be forced out of the way.

  212. 213 jordan
    September 21, 2008 at 15:49

    The Russians have the same nuclear parity with NATO, why do you wnat to isolate a country that can assure mutual destruction to Europe and the USA, What is the point???? , Russia is not North Korea, they still have nuclear weapons enough to destroy Europe and the USA many times, isolation sanctions will not work, dialogue diplomacy will.


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