on air: What’s wrong with cosmetic surgery ?

Morning / afternoon / evening, Peter (Dobbie) here with news of todays World Have Your Say.

Today, what’s wrong with cosmetic surgery ?

Now, we’ve got two reasons for asking this question today.

First, experts have said that successful results from two more face transplants will speed progress towards similar operations in other countries. The Lancet medical journal reported operations involving a bear attack victim in China, and a French patient with a massive facial tumour had taken place. The Chinese patient was given not just the lip, nose, skin and muscle from a donor, but even some facial bone. And specialists here in London are working towards the UK’s first full face transplant.

Second, the WHYS blog has got a very heathy responses to a post earlier in the week about cometic surgery. Not neccessary plastic surgery (that’s a different area), but people of any age, seeking out a surgeon to perform an operation (large or small) simply because they want to look different. They feel the need to improve themselves I suppose.

The WHYS blog makes the point that with easy loans, a rise in cosmetic surgery tourism, and even internet sponsorship available, it’s easier than ever to afford to go under the knife, so is it time to stop fussing about cosmetic surgery ? In America more and more teenagers are having cosmetic surgery – nearly a quarter of a million last year. A 15 year-old girl caused controversy (especially among psychologists) in the US last month after she appeared on TV talking about her recent liposuction.

But it’s not just a Western phenomenon, more Chinese students are using the long summer break as a chance to recover from tummy tucks and breast implants before they’ve even stopped growing.

So, please let us know what you think.

What would YOU change about yourself. Come on, you know, there must be one thing, just one, that given the chance you’d change. How young is just too young to go under the doctors knife ? When you start, do you ever really stop ? Indeed, where do you stop ? Why call it a day at a tummy tuck ? If you want the perfect chest, the perfect nose, the rock-solid backside, and you have the cash, or your parents have the case, why not ? Later, Peter :o)

Later, Peter :o)

274 Responses to “on air: What’s wrong with cosmetic surgery ?”

  1. 1 Meg in Canada
    August 22, 2008 at 13:47

    I know some may not believe me, but there isn’t anything I would change about myself with cosmetic surgery. While it’s true there are things about my body that I’m not the most fond of, they are things that make me unique and special, and are part of my identity. I don’t think anyone under the age of 21 should be having cosmetic or plastic surgery (except in extreme cases like those listed above) because I think, at that age, a person is still learning about who they are and is still shaping their own identity. Parts of my body that I hated at 15 I now love almost ten years later. That being said, a person’s choice to go under the knife is their own. All any person strives for is happiness. So if fixing a part of their body is going to make them happier, so be it. It’s a personal choice and not for anyone else to judge.

  2. 2 steve
    August 22, 2008 at 13:54

    To qualify my comments in the previous discussions on this topic, I have no problem with people having plastic surgery who have been burned in fires, had their faces bitten off, etc. I have a problem with the people who are “my nose isn’t perfect, this isn’t perfect, that isn’t perfect”. Those people are like materialistic people, and can never be happy, because once they have something, they want something else. That’s a mental issue that needs counselling, not surgery or going shopping.

    Any wanting the “perfect” whatever, be it nose, chest, or relationship, then you are living in a fantasy world. There is no such thing as perfect, and as soon as you see better, then you only get worse.

  3. August 22, 2008 at 14:04

    When people use Cosmetic Surgery to make themselves look young instead of using it for emergency purposes, they expose themselves to an eventual problem with the immune system or a rejection of the result by the body’s immune system.

  4. 4 Devra Lawrence-Jamaica
    August 22, 2008 at 14:06

    Psalms 134:14 “I will praise thee; for I am fearfully & wonderfully made:”

    Well, I think cosmetic surgery is wrong, and I also think it becomes addictive (take a look at those movie stars who keep ‘fixing’ something. They do breast, but calf implants!!!). The bible says that we are fearfully and wonderfully made, and it also says that we are made in the likeness and image of God. So who are we to go change the way the Almighty Creator has made us?

    Would I change anything about myself? Hmmmm. Well growing up i was always teased about my forehead (was called “buck-buck” in high school) but i never made it bother me, never combed my hair with a bang in my face as suggested by my frenz, cause I simply liked my forehead. NOW @ age 26, I am developing some love handles, and with lipo/tummy tuck becoming very popular (even in Jamaica) I do feel tempted to try it out, but I will resort to the gym.

    Changing the way we look has alot to do with how secure we are with how we were created. I think we should just be acceptable to God for how we look … remember, this body will fade away eventually.


  5. 5 Meg in Canada
    August 22, 2008 at 14:07

    @ Steve,

    I completely understand that you don’t agree with someone who gets cosmetic surgery to have the perfect nose, etc… but remember that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, a person whose face looks fine to you may look horrible to them. It’s all about perception. And while I completely agree that body image and self-esteem can be linked, I don’t think that cosmetic surgery is something for you or I to “have a problem with”. As I said above, it is a personal decision and should be respected as one.

  6. 6 steve
    August 22, 2008 at 14:15

    @ Meg

    Read up on body dismorphic disorder


    Body dysmorphic disorder (BDD) is characterized by an excessive preoccupation with a real or imagined defect in your physical appearance.

    People with body dysmorphic disorder have a distorted or exaggerated view of how they look and are obsessed with actual physical characteristics or perceived flaws, such as a certain facial feature or imperfections of the skin. They often think of themselves as ugly or disfigured. People with body dysmorphic disorder often have problems controlling negative thoughts about their appearance, even when reassured by others that they look fine and that the minor or perceived flaws aren’t noticeable or excessive.

    Treatment for body dysmorphic disorder may involve a combined approach involving medication and talk therapy (psychotherapy). Antidepressant medications used along with cognitive behavior therapy can help people with body dysmorphic disorder manage the obsession and anxiety about their appearance, increase confidence in how they look, and obtain normalcy in their social and work lives.

  7. 7 Sheikh Kafumba Dukuly
    August 22, 2008 at 14:19

    Cosmetic surgery just besides distorting the person’s natural physique or appearance, he/her is prune to serious medical side effects as the chemotherapy associated with these surgical operations. Your natural might not appealing but it is better that way than venturing into a procedure that could affect life. It is good to appreciate nature.

  8. 8 nelsoni
    August 22, 2008 at 14:21

    First, Off topic: This is the longest Blog post I have ever read on WHYS.

  9. 9 Roy, Washington DC
    August 22, 2008 at 14:22

    I agree with the point Steve made about there being no such thing as perfect. Everybody has their imperfections, and that’s what makes us human.

  10. 10 selena
    August 22, 2008 at 14:25


    So who are we to go change the way the Almighty Creator has made us?

    Would you not accept surgery for Hare Lip and Cleft Palate?

    After all, that is what “God” made!!!

  11. 11 Meg in Canada
    August 22, 2008 at 14:26

    @ Steve,

    Thank-you for that link. I’m not disagreeing that people with BDD shouldn’t seek medical help to try and fix their body image issues, and I’m not saying that it’s not unfortunate that some of these people would rather fix what’s on the outside and continue to suffer on the inside. But there is a difference between a person who has an actual disorder in the way they think about themselves, and someone who simply has a feature that has bothered them (but not obsessively) and would like to have it improved.

    The question above asks what someone would change about their body. We all have little imperfections that we’d rather not have. Most of us just live with it or will try to improve ourselves by other means (exercise, etc), either because there IS another way, or we can’t afford/won’t consider surgery. But if a person suddenly came into some money and wanted to fix something they couldn’t fix before (spider veins on their legs for example) I don’t see anything wrong with that. It’s not necessarily about trying to be perfect. Most people are realistic enough to know that perfection is created by society and doesn’t REALLY exist. Sometimes it’s about nothing more than “I feel great about myself and now that I have the opportunity to fix this I will feel even better”. There is a big difference between someone who thinks like that and someone who is depressed on a regular basis by how they look or how they perceive themselves to look.

  12. 12 selena
    August 22, 2008 at 14:27


    Reading up on “dismorphic disorder” doesn’t change a thing.

    Obsession with body image and low self esteem (whatever that is!) is a created phenomenon.

  13. 13 Sheikh Kafumba Dukuly
    August 22, 2008 at 14:29

    @ nelsoni, i am sorry the length of my post offend you. Many Africans would just not worry about problem encountered after cosmetic surgery because they are faced with the grim survival. Cosmetic surgery is a luxury for man living at the rung of society.

  14. 14 nelsoni
    August 22, 2008 at 14:29

    The body has a natural balance, altering it through cosmetic surgeries leads to consequences in the long term some of which are not pleasant. That said people may have genuine reasons such to correct a defect from an accident but other people do it because they don’t like how they look and want to look perfect. Either way, it’s their call to make. Some where in the equation is self esteem.

  15. 15 steve
    August 22, 2008 at 14:34

    @ Selena

    “Reading up on “dismorphic disorder” doesn’t change a thing.

    Obsession with body image and low self esteem (whatever that is!) is a created phenomenon.”

    Can I take a wild guess, it’s a disease of the privileged. Like I presume they have no anorexia in extremely poor nations, I doubt they have body dismorphic in poor nations as well, or at least to the degree. So what about it in the west leads to this?

  16. 16 Meg in Canada
    August 22, 2008 at 14:39

    I think that part of the problem is how the ideal person (women especially) is portrayed by the media. Not to say that people shouldn’t be strong enough to realize that these models are airbrushed, digitally enhanced, and have an entire team of specialists that work for hours to make them look good – but being bombarded by the media of what women should look like certainly isn’t part of the solution. A few years ago Dove started a campaign called the Campaign For Real Beauty. There is a one minute video showing how a very average looking woman can be transformed into a bombshell. I highly recommend watching it as I think it would add another dimension to this discussion.

    Watch the film called “Evolution”…

  17. 17 ArnaudEmmanuelOctoberbaby
    August 22, 2008 at 14:39

    Dear Peter,
    many reports show how those who ever had plastic surgery suffer from some complications later on which even make them regret why went through it…unfortunately I don’t think I one day love to change or modify part of my body.

  18. 18 Meg in Canada
    August 22, 2008 at 14:42

    This link is better.

  19. 19 Sheikh Kafumba Dukuly
    August 22, 2008 at 14:44

    Like Nelsoni said, people have their to make choices but there will be attending consequences. Professional medical personnel inform their patients about the risk; the patients make the call. Decision and consequence are inseparable in this case. Making the decision and ignoring the consequence is naive. I am happy with God’s handiwork. I rather stay that way.

  20. 20 steve
    August 22, 2008 at 14:45

    If we’re going to blame the media for the poor self image that people (probably mostly women have), how come men don’t have the same problem? There are magazines like GQ, or whatever, with good looking men,and I don’t want to run out and get plastic surgery or starve myself if I get them. I got a free subscription to GQ, and I just look at the clothing styles for suggestions, and I never even follow through on getting stuff, and it never crosses my mind to want to be like the guys in the magazine. On TV, other than a few exceptions, such as comic relief characters or comedians, male TV actors are all good looking. You pretty much have to be good looking to be in hollywood. So why do women react so differently? Should I run out and get plastic surgery because Tom Brady is better looking than me, and more athletic? Should I devote my life to professional football, becuase if he can be rich and get supermodels, I should be able to do the same? Or do I accept myself for who I am?

  21. 21 Meg in Canada
    August 22, 2008 at 14:50


    You’re right – there is media portrayal of the way the “ideal” man should look. However there is way more attention put in place of how women should look. Every second commercial is about how to make your skin more perfect, your eyes stand out, your abs tighter, etc…

    This could be way out of left field, but does anyone think this could be a remnant of the days when women were supposed to be perfect for their man? The man would come home and expect dinner on the table, the kids all bathed and looking nice, and a clean house? Does anyone think the media plays on the idea that that concept of the way a “perfect woman” should be may still linger? Just a thought.

  22. 22 selena
    August 22, 2008 at 14:54


    You are too young, it seems, to understand patriarchy??

    If you truly wish to get a handle on all the things that bother you, you must understand this concept.

  23. 23 steve
    August 22, 2008 at 14:56

    @ Meg

    Ever see those bowflex commercials? They have a man and a woman, both in incredible shape. They each get equal time in the commercial. I’ve never looked at the commercial and though, wow, I need to look like him or I’m worthless! Yet in the same commercial, women might react that way.

    When were women ever supposed to be perfect? I think that’s the problem, is that women actually think there can be be perfect. I hear them talking about perfect men, wanting perfect men, them wanting to look perfect, when there’s no such thing! I think men to have more realistic views of life. Remember, there’s no gun at women’s heads to get them to buy these magazines, to watch the TV shows, etc. I think the reality is that a woman’s power comes from her physical appearance. It can get her what she wants. I find it unbelievable the stuff guys will do get a woman, they’ll spend tons of money, vacations, etc, it seems pretty desperate to me, but if a woman is attractive, she gets lots of attention and lots of “stuff”. If she loses her looks, she loses that power. Ever notice how bitter formerly attractive women tend to be?

  24. 24 nelsoni
    August 22, 2008 at 14:57

    @ Sheikh. Every human being is a free moral agent. Bob Marley said “every man has the right to decide his own destiny …” If people decide to go undergo cosmetic surgery for what ever reason that catches their fancy, best of luck to them, always remember you can not upset nature’s balance and get away it.

  25. August 22, 2008 at 15:06

    If we can buyy new clothes for new looks then i think its ok to change our looks via sugery permanently.i 100% support it tho it has enough healthy risks.

  26. 26 Meg in Canada
    August 22, 2008 at 15:11

    @ Steve,

    Hmm, you bring up a good point. And you pose a good question. I don’t know why women fall prey to advertisements than men do. I personally don’t believe that “perfect” exists… or rather, it’s different for everyone. As I told someone once, “no one is perfect, but you can be perfect for someone,” meaning that a persons flaws are what makes them human, and makes them endearing to others.

    Women used to be limited by the ‘glass ceiling’ where certain jobs were only given to men, men were paid more, etc. We saw in our discussion about discrimination a while back that some employers will not hire women of child bearing age because they can’t afford to pay them while they are on maternity leave. Do you think maybe in an attempt to overcome these barriers, women strive for the unattainable? They want to be the perfect mothers,sisters, girlfriends, wives, employees… and to do it all they strive for an outward perfection that doesn’t exist?

  27. 27 selena
    August 22, 2008 at 15:16


    Well said!

    Now let’s take it a step further… who requires that women be perfect super women? Who desires a trophy wife?

  28. 28 Meg in Canada
    August 22, 2008 at 15:20


    That is a good question, although I’ll expand it by asking more questions… is it the women putting pressure on themselves? It is the media? Is their partners expectations they try and live up to? What role do parents play? How do people feel about women using their looks to get what they want? Especially in light of things like cosmetic surgery and plastic surgery being more widely available to change appearances?

  29. 29 Virginia Davis
    August 22, 2008 at 15:22

    No cosmetic surgery for me. And, again, it is a preoccupation of those who are self-absorbed and affluent. I like the Biblical quote. Virginia in Oregon

  30. 30 Anthony
    August 22, 2008 at 15:25

    I HATE plastic surgery. It has ruined a lot of America with images that almost no one can ever achieve. Plus, it is unfair to other races of people. It shows that more white is beautiful. Lets see what a Dr. would say if someone requested “can you give me a more Jewish nose?”, “How about more of a black nose?”, “Can you give me more Asian eyes?”. How about other things like “can you make my ears bigger?”, “can you give me ‘canckles’?, or “can you give me more of a pear shape, this 36-24-36 figure is horrible!!!”. A Dr. would never “ethically” do this, but why not???

    If I say, “could you make me look more like Brad Pitt” I’m sure people would understand. If I say, “could you make me look more like Morgan Freeman” I’m sure people would think I’m crazy!!!

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  31. 31 Anthony
    August 22, 2008 at 15:33

    I knew this really fat girl, who ate nothing but pizza and Twinkies (yet had diet Pepsi to “offset” it). She got lipo and a boob job and started acting like she was better than everyone. That’s why I was happy when she started to gain the weight again! 10 grand and 2 weeks of pain down the drain. 🙂

    I also know a girl who went to D-cups a few years back. Now she’s having back pains, and a “weird” feeling and sometimes pain on her left breast. Hmmmm, you had B cups for a reason, if nature wanted you to had D’s you would have had em’!!!

    People “feeling better about themselves” doesn’t make them better people or better off in the long run.

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  32. 32 rawpoliticsjamaicastyle
    August 22, 2008 at 15:41

    Hi WHYSers!

    I would, in a minute, if felt pushed go under the knife. Currently, I don’t though that can always change depnding on whatever. As far as I am concerned, the upset of nature is really an argument used to deter people making up their own minds about plastic surgery. From where I am sitting I do not see the big deal. We wear braces, whiten our teeth, lift weights, perm our hairs, manicure and pedicure our nails. Cosmetic surgery is just the next jump in a logical equation of body alterations as a way of achieving the ‘ideal’! Whatever that is!

  33. 33 Meg in Canada
    August 22, 2008 at 15:43

    @ Anthony

    People “feeling better about themselves” doesn’t make them better people or better off in the long run.

    True enough. As we were all told when we were little, it’s what’s on the inside that counts. But if a person wants to try and change something about themselves and has the resources to do it, that’s their right. The risks associated with plastic/cosmetic surgery is like that saying “Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it all…. and then some you don’t want”

  34. 34 rawpoliticsjamaicastyle
    August 22, 2008 at 15:45

    So, I would say, as far as I am concerned (just my opinion!) there is nothing wrong with cosmetic plastic surgery, as that even suggests that there is a moral issue at stake. I am not sure what that could be. So, I am on the pro-cosmetic plastic surgery side of this discussion.

  35. 35 steve
    August 22, 2008 at 15:48

    @ Meg

    I don’t really know why they do those things. But I do believe the emphasis on appearance is so that women can maintain power over men. Perfection, I have no idea why, you aren’t mentally all there if you believe perfection in anything exists. I outgrew that ages ago, if you sit down and talk to anyone, you can find out they are not remotely as perfect as you think. Regardless of how pretty a woman is, she’s probably got some huge issues, and men, the same way. I think the only barriers most women face (the people who refuse to hire women of childbearing age, that’s rare, and remember, the guest was a woman herself) are self imposed barriers. Women are free to do whatever they want, in fact they are freer than men these days. I only know a handful of men that have the luxury of choosing whether to work or not. My friend’s girlfriend is a model, and she gets paid to be pretty. How many men get that? There are male models, but they don’t make much money, and in fact it’s a joke, that’s why that movie Zoolander was so funny. It was basically pointing out that male models don’t get remotely the attention and fame, and the movie was like an alternate reality, because real life is so not like that.

  36. 36 steve
    August 22, 2008 at 15:50

    @ Selena

    “Now let’s take it a step further… who requires that women be perfect super women? Who desires a trophy wife?”

    I doubt any man believes there’s such a thing as a perfect woman. The trophy wives are the epitome of imperfect. Everyone knows that if Donald Trump were not filthy rich, he wouldn’t be getting these women. That makes them golddiggers, and that is disgusting, making them far from perfect, regardless of what htey look like. And yes, looks fade, but nasty personalities don’t.

  37. 37 Katharina in Ghent
    August 22, 2008 at 15:54

    Nothing is wrong with cosmetic surgery – when there is a valid reason for it. A cleft plate or hare lip is not only “not pretty”, they also have serious implications for the person, speech impediments being only one of them. If you need to get a new face because you had a facial tumor or an accident , well, that’s pretty dramatic, but still better than going outside with a skiing mask in summer.

    On the other had, the should be serious regulations against making any unnecessary surgeries on teenagers before the age of twenty, when one can conclude that the kid is grown up and won’t grow any further. What good is a nose job when your nose is still growing? Same for bigger breasts, when they might still grow more?

    All that said, I believe that there is strong pressure in the Western media to look a certain way, and especially young people don’t have the strength yet to resist this pressure and accept them the way they are.

  38. 38 rawpoliticsjamaicastyle
    August 22, 2008 at 15:54

    I want, however, to come to a point that Selena made overnight on the other discussion page of this topic, which is one that I had made throughout yesterday. Ideas about beauty are usually intersected by international Capitalistic, often Western, ethic which preaches that we should purchase something as a way of feeling complete.

    Whether it be hair colour, sheen, shampoo, or whatever, there is always the latest thing which is going to make us, including men, more beautiful/ handsome/ sexy (or whatever!). This would be my only caution that, there is need for consideration about one’s choices before making them.

    That being said, I am not so sure that there is much of a real difference between cosmetic plastic surgery to get a breast reduction or an increase in size and wearing metals in one’s mouth for a lifetime to correct an over or underbite. I don’t see the difference and I certainly do not know that having plastic surgery, by itself, is a sign of any particular deficiency!

  39. 39 Jonathan
    August 22, 2008 at 15:54


    You say “a woman’s power comes from her physical appearance.” You recognize that “if she loses her looks, she loses that power.” And you notice that “formerly attractive women” tend to be “bitter.” So you value beauty in women, and you understand its enormous importance to change the entire course of their lives.

    How then can you be dismissive and disapproving of women who improve their appearance? Why do you ridicule them and say they need psychiatric help for some mental disorder, and they should accept themselves as they are physically? By that logic, do you “disapprove” of cosmetics also? To be consistent, you should.

    The usual enlightened or neo-puritan position is to say what matters is only inner beauty. But you know better than that. Outer beauty matters a whole lot, for better or worse. What makes you imagine that the less-than-beautiful must suffer, that they’re wrong to improve their looks and hence their lives?

    Whether you do or don’t feel you should improve your own appearance is irrelevant, because you know, and you said, that this matter is entirely different for women.

  40. 40 rawpoliticsjamaicastyle
    August 22, 2008 at 15:59

    @ Katharina, et al,

    I completely agree with you about the pressures placed on us by Western media to achieve the ideal “look”. I must say that I am not especially caught up in that drama because you have to use what ‘your momma gave you!’LOL! In that regard, I think the foundation of any real beauty is about a beautiful spirit, a beautiful heart and beautiful mind! The rest, in my opinion, can catch up whether through cosmetic surgery, eating correctly and learning the simpler joys in life! The ultimate goal, I presume, is balance. No use being ‘beautiful’ and sick (and or a sicko! LOL!)!

  41. 41 steve
    August 22, 2008 at 16:00

    @ Jonathan

    I’m saying that from how they view themselves. If they chose to not base their power on appearance, than it it wouldn’t be that way. However women focus more on appearance than intellect. More on clothes, styles, following trends, etc… I’m not saying appearance doesn’t matter, of course it does. But so does a guy’s appearance. Assuming I were not rich, and I was 5’5 and 350 lbs, do you think I would be getting women? Probably not very likely.

    I don’t like cosmetics at all. none of my girlfriends wore them. They were all down to earth, jeans wearing type women, who didn’t care about shoes, handbags, etc.

    Come on, let’s get real, there are just as many if not more women that will date men for money than there are men that date women for looks. I see all the time here in DC guys who are wealthy, who are good looking and great shape, with overweight, average looking women. not models.

  42. 42 Meg in Canada
    August 22, 2008 at 16:05

    @ Steve,

    I agree that some women do conscientiously use their looks to get their way. But I don’t believe that the majority of women and girls do that. And I’d be careful saying that women focus more on appearance than on intellect… I think the stats for university entrance are currently 53-47% in favour of female students…

  43. 43 Julie P
    August 22, 2008 at 16:13

    According to the Anerican Society of Plastic Surgeons within the last decade cosmetic surgery has increased 44% for men, although they are not the historically dominant they are now recognizing that men are an emerging market worth pursuing. As men are aging and looking to advance their careers men are seeking cosmetic surgery to make themselves more competitive in a youth obsessed culture. More men are getting nose jobs, liposuction, calf implants, hair implants, eye lid lifts, and other forms of cosmetic surgery in order to increase their incomes, or to keep their jobs. Cosmetic surgery is something that do not like to talk to about like women, because men do not want to make themselves vulnerable like women, that according to the American Society of Plastic Surgeons. Cosmetic surgery is not just for women anymore.

  44. 44 rawpoliticsjamaicastyle
    August 22, 2008 at 16:14

    As for “just accepting how we look”. I really am never sure what things like those mean. Those who can afford to say that will.

    I go to the gym (also) and am in a staunch battle against the bulge – love handles, included. I try (try!) to eat right – whatever that means, but the reality is that you can only do so much some times and no more. (And, who doesn’t like to eat, anyways?) I wonder what of the gym and the exercising and the perms and the rest of it; that is, regarding “just accepting how we look”?

    I am not knocking this idea so much as I am suggesting that it can have a different meaning to different people at different times and places. Why would we have science and scientific advancements (if plastic surgery can be considered such!) if not to take advantage of their benefits?

    I get it, our bodies will fade, but there is nothing that say we have to ‘go quietly into the sweet good night!”

  45. 45 steve
    August 22, 2008 at 16:15

    @ Meg

    “I think the stats for university entrance are currently 53-47% in favour of female students”

    There’s only so much you can do with poli sci, history, and philosophy degrees. Also a degree doesn’t make you any more intellectual or intelligent. One of the most knowledgeable and well read people I knew dropped out of school at age 12 to support the family. Became self taught.

  46. 46 Sheikh Kafumba Dukuly
    August 22, 2008 at 16:15

    You don’t necessarily have to be a dandy before you follow closely your appearance. It is a natural drive for everyone to esteem himself as being good looking. We at times choose to wear our best of clothes to look attractive and appealing to other sights. All of these are not scaring as compare to being placed under anaesthetic influence and butchered in the name of a good look.

  47. 47 Nick in USA
    August 22, 2008 at 16:16

    Going under the knife and risking your life for your own vanity. It doesn’t get more American/ Hollywood than that. I can’t believe so many people are willing to do this. On top of the risks, most of the people who get surgery, end up looking gross (Think Ivanna Trump or Donatella Versace).

    Also, what’s up with the fish lip thing that has been going around with old women in Hollywood? I met a lady who had the fish lip thing done, and I honestly couldn’t keep a straight face when talking to her. I just wanted to throw some colored flakes in the air and see if she’d attack them.

  48. 48 Jens
    August 22, 2008 at 16:18

    Meg and steve,

    there is no bigger turn on than an intelligent woman one can have a good conversation with. well if she is attractive and wears jeans that is a bonus. 😉

  49. 49 Meg in Canada
    August 22, 2008 at 16:18

    @ Steve,

    You’re absolutely right… (I disagree on your comment about poli sci/philosophy/history but that’s neither here nor there)… I simply wanted to make the point that it’s an unfair generalization to say that women in general are more focussed on their appearance than their intellect.

  50. 50 Jonathan
    August 22, 2008 at 16:20

    @Steveve, you’re NOT talking about “how [women] view themselves,” and you know it’s NOT “their choice to base their power on appearance,” and you know they can’t just choose not to do so. You know that it’s MEN who have those values. You’ve said that MEN “focus more on appearance than intellect,” and you’re right. You also know that your values are different, and arguably more enlightened, but distinctly in the minority.

    So, again, why would you deny women the chance to improve their appearance and hence their lives? Why would you doom the unlovely to unlovely lives? Why should they not do the best they can? And why do you insist that they have a mental disorder?

    Your regular readers are well aware of your sentiments about women who choose men on the bais of money. But that is not the topic today.

  51. 51 steve
    August 22, 2008 at 16:20

    @ Meg

    Answer honestly, do you think women spend more time getting ready to go out than they spend reading nonfiction per day that isn’t work related? Even in college, what do you think happens more, studying on a weekend or prepping for going out?

  52. 52 rawpoliticsjamaicastyle
    August 22, 2008 at 16:24

    @ Meg in Canada,

    There is an inherrent bias towards so-called ‘beautiful women’. There is the notion that such women are usually vapid and vaccuous. No regard for brains here, just a body waiting for some man (or woman, God forbid!) to manipulate. This is part of the problem with this discussion about plastic surgery and the so-called ‘natural look’ and ‘accepting what God gave us’!

    There is a feeling that should a woman (or man, I daresay!) who wants to take advantage of such an opportunity is looking not to do any legitimate work, at all. Bollocks!

    It’s nobody’s fault that an attractive woman, whatever that means, wishes to take advantage of her appearance insofar as that allows her some kind of privilege. It is for the rest of us to know where the aesthetics end and where the intellect and common sense are supposed to set in. My point?

    Men are just as guilty of promoting these ideas about women as the very women who are criticised for relying too much on their looks.

  53. August 22, 2008 at 16:24

    @ Meg.
    I believe strongly that women are more concerned about there look, age and life style as compared to men. As natural as dimple is, some women are afraid to possess it let alone say a wrinkle. A women will prefer to stock her cosmetic box that go to the movie or on the beach.

  54. 54 steve
    August 22, 2008 at 16:24

    @ Jonathan

    I said initially appearance is important, like it is to everyone. I can see an incredibly attractive woman, but if she’s stupid or has a nasty personality, that’s a total turnoff and any interest I have is gone. If a relationship is based solely upon appearance, it’s not going to last very long. It’s really painful to have a conversation with someone who’s not well informed. I broke things off with a cute chick who, during the bird flu scare thing, which was all in the news, you couldn’t escape it, and she had never even heard of the bird flu, but seemed to know everything about paris hilton and brittney spears and what place had the trendiest drinks… now that sucked.

  55. 55 JESSE BASSE
    August 22, 2008 at 16:28

    everything is wrong with plastic surgery cos it,s not original.

  56. 56 Peter Gizzi UK
    August 22, 2008 at 16:28

    Hi Folks it’s me again.
    Although i have never felt the need for cosmetic surgery I have no problem with others having it done.

    Spare parts are often required though and as I have said before I have bequested my whole body to medical science. It will be frozen until required. It could provide parts for others giving them hopefully a better life.

    How many of you would consider doing this?

    Nice to see the “old” regulars again.

  57. 57 Lauren
    August 22, 2008 at 16:29

    @ Anthony

    In regards to your comment about the “really fat girl” who got lipo and a boob job, what was she like before the surgery? Where you her friend? Did she have a lot of friends? Was she dating anybody or going out to clubs/bars/parties? Is it possible that her acting like she was better than everyone was her way (probably not the best way) of showing the confidence and self-esteem that she didn’t have when she was over weight? Is it possible that she still wasn’t entirely comfortable with herself and was over-compensating?

    @ Steve

    You commented that if you were not wealthy and 350 lbs, it would be hard to get a girlfriend; the same thing is true for a woman who is overweight. Those good-looking, rich guys in DC may have average overweight girlfriends, but I wonder if it was a “love at first sight” thing, or if those guys took the time to get to know these women and their attraction grew from there? Also, there maybe a difference of opinion in what you consider to be “average and overweight” and what those guys are thinking.

  58. 58 rawpoliticsjamaicastyle
    August 22, 2008 at 16:31

    @ Steve,

    In all honesty, how do you know that women in college are spending more time prepping to go out than reading non-fiction? And what does that prove anyway? That women are utilising their ‘God given abilities’ in an extremely patriarchal society that is bent on seeing them as mostly meat, to their advantage? What’s so wrong with that?

    Is the issue that women spend time getting dressed or even how they look? Or, is it that there is moral issue to be debated with cosmetic surgery? Is it not entirely possible that one can have plastic surgery, regardless of the outcome, and still be a good person – whatever that means?

    Is it not possible that the act of going under the knife is not an inherrently wrong or immoral decision? And that, it is people who, for various reasons, seem bent on chastising those who do? What of the success stories? Aren’t there any, at all?

  59. 59 jessnyc
    August 22, 2008 at 16:31

    I like my mug, so to speak. No part of me is perfect, but I’m very comfortable in my skin. Sure there are parts I’d like enhanced, but only for an evening… Like at a rock concert, I’d like to cosmetically add a few inches to my legs and be taller. Since cosmetic changes are not like pretty shoes that I can show off for an evening, then be throw in a closet, I will pass.

    All joking aside though, I thank my parents for my healthy image. Other people are not so lucky and suffer from huge self esteem problems. If ADULTS are willing to risk life to go under the knife and it will makes them happy. I say it’s their choice. However, kids are another story. What loving parent would allow their 15 year old to get liposuction? Do they realize they confirmed their daughters fears of not being “good-enough” the way she was prior to the surgery. Very sad.

  60. 60 Julie P
    August 22, 2008 at 16:32


    When you talk about college age students with this question: “Even in college, what do you think happens more, studying on a weekend or prepping for going out?” You neglect that at the traditional college student both sexes are more interested in going out and partying than studying or reading a book of any kind.

  61. 61 Angela in Washington
    August 22, 2008 at 16:33


    I must say that I spent more time studying in college than prepping going to class. I am so happy I went to a school where I could and did go to class in my pajamas. When I went out I took time but guys even take time.

    I know many guys that are very concerned about their physique, hence why they spend hours and hours in the gym. I do not have a problem with that because I like men in shape, just like men like women that take care of themselves.

    I don’t go out in DC but I think it is full of fake people that are concerned with having the wealthy husband or the trophy wife. Since you don’t particulary like fat people, you would understand a women that takes care of herself, is intelligent, and is a good person. What ifshe was slightly overweight would it matter. You seem to be unconcerned with superficial things but weight is a very superficial thing that the media concentrates on, hence you may not be any better than the women who gets cosmetic surgery to look good. How would you know if she were all natural!?!

  62. 62 Nick in USA
    August 22, 2008 at 16:33

    @ Steve

    “I broke things off with a cute chick who, during the bird flu scare thing, which was all in the news, you couldn’t escape it, and she had never even heard of the bird flu, but seemed to know everything about paris hilton and brittney spears and what place had the trendiest drinks… now that sucked.”

    I broke up with a beautiful girl for almost exactly the same thing. She made me watch the E channel. She actually respected Paris Hilton. She said, ” well, guys want her, and they give her whatever she wants, so I’d like to be like her”. Hearing this was like getting punched in the stomach.

  63. 63 Lauren
    August 22, 2008 at 16:34

    @ Steve

    You are absolutely right about an attractive person with a bad personality being a turn-off and that basing a relationship on appearances won’t last, but 1st impressions mean everything. People are more likely to try an engage someone they are physically attracted to in a conversation and break it off later because of their attitude, than approach someone they think is unattractive in order to find out more about their personality.

  64. 64 steve
    August 22, 2008 at 16:35

    @ raw

    I went to a school that was not known to be a party school (michigan) and even there, the women would party, not study much on weekends, they would spend lots of time getting ready, to look their “best”. At party schools, like Michigan state, it was much worse. My friends who went to east coast schools would tell me the same, and I would see the same on weekends. Some schools had coed bathrooms and the girls would take up the bathrooms the entire weekends. At my school, we didn’t have coed bathrooms, but the women in the dorms my freshman year would spend so much time, that girls would “have to” use the men’s bathrooms to get ready.

  65. 65 Sheikh Kafumba Dukuly
    August 22, 2008 at 16:36

    @ RawPoliticsJamaica.
    Cosmetic Surgery is done by both male and female. A sexist bias could erode the discussion. My problem with cosmetic accounts for both sexes. I rather marry a natural looking african girl than a supermodel who needs funds to buy regular medication for surgical chemotherapy.

  66. 66 Angela in Washington
    August 22, 2008 at 16:37


    Especially if you saw the picture of the girl, she was thin before the surgery. There was a little fat on her stomach, but it was healthy and she looked skinny. As long as her parents are happy and she is happy, then all is well.

  67. 67 steve
    August 22, 2008 at 16:39

    @ Lauren

    I see very overweight women in the US all the time having boyfriends. I don’t care what a woman looks like, there’s some man (maybe not “mr. perfect”) that wants her. It’s not the same story with men though. Doesn’t work the same way for men. I know some women, who get certain men interested in her when she’s thin, and other men interested in her when she gains weight..

    I’m not sure if it’s a “love at first sight” thing, I think it’s just being realistic. This is the US, there are lots of overweight people. If every guy wanted a thin woman, there aren’t enough thin women for that to be possible.

    I think overweight is pretty objective. These women have “muffin tops”. They would be considerably larger than their european counterparts. I’m absolutely amazed by how much thinner women are in europe than in the US. When you see a thin woman here, it’s not exactly rare, but uncommon. Whereas in europe, esp. germany, you barely see any fat people. And the fat people they have would be “overweight” in the US, and not the obese that are common here.

  68. 68 Angela in Washington
    August 22, 2008 at 16:40

    I don’t understand what is wrong trying to look your best? Are most people attracted to people that don’t look good? People want to look good.

  69. 69 Meg in Canada
    August 22, 2008 at 16:40

    @ Rawpoliticsjamaicastyle

    Men are just as guilty of promoting these ideas about women as the very women who are criticised for relying too much on their looks.

    Well said! 🙂

  70. 70 Anthony
    August 22, 2008 at 16:40

    @ Lauren

    The bad thing is she was my friendn and a very very nice and sweet girl with a nice boyfriend. Then she turned into a, well, naughty “B-word”, got a “hot” boyfriend who ended up knocking her up and ditching her, and now lost her old friends. At the time, It made be really sad.

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  71. 71 Nick in USA
    August 22, 2008 at 16:42

    @ Rawpoliticsjamaicastyle

    “That women are utilising their ‘God given abilities’ in an extremely patriarchal society that is bent on seeing them as mostly meat, to their advantage? What’s so wrong with that?”

    Everything is wrong with that. Maybe society isn’t fair, but adding to the problem, isn’t going to help. If you give in to being seen as a piece of meat, then that’s all you will ever be. The world doesn’t need any more Pam Andersons. One of them, influencing teen-age girls, is quite enough.

  72. 72 steve
    August 22, 2008 at 16:42

    @ Nick

    “I broke up with a beautiful girl for almost exactly the same thing. She made me watch the E channel. She actually respected Paris Hilton. She said, ” well, guys want her, and they give her whatever she wants, so I’d like to be like her”. Hearing this was like getting punched in the stomach.”

    I pray by saying “broke up” you meant “ran as fast you could out the door”. I once dated a girl who after we started dating, decided to become a “socialite”. I truly pity anyone involved with her. But since she’s good looking, she gets whatever she wants from life, but once her looks are gone, she will be a bitter, miserable person. These were her choices and her responsibility.

  73. 73 Jack
    August 22, 2008 at 16:42

    Dear WHYS,

    This week I have been a model employee thanks to your less-than stimulating topics. My boss is very grateful to you. If we’re going to focus on the banal (e.g. cosmetic surgery, whether or not Olympic athletes should celebrate when they’ve won, etc.) as opposed to more serious topics (e.g. arsenic in drinking water, industrial child slavery, etc.) why not do controversial banal topics? Lately I find myself agreeing with Steve and Dan on most things.

    What’s the fun in that?

  74. 74 Jonathan
    August 22, 2008 at 16:44


    I’d humbly suggest that there is no medical reason, as you imply, for plastic surgery to be deferred until age 20. That’s an arbitrary point, and arguably much too late in life. Experiences that form character occur long before age 20. Teachers give better grades and better treatment to attractive children. There’s a feedback loop, where good looks lead to good experiences that build confidence, that bring more good interactions. Plain or unattractive children undergo the opposite: a vicious cycle, not a virtuous one. Teenagers are forming lifelong patterns of social and sexual behavior, and lasting damage can occur from what adults too quickly dismiss as trivial. Thus, it’s exactly during early life–well before age 20–that improving appearance can have its most profound effects. After that, it’s too late to do more than superficial change.

  75. 75 steve
    August 22, 2008 at 16:45

    @ Angela

    I hope you see there’s a huge difference from going under the knife and spending hours in the gym. I’m gonna be hiking for 5-6 hours tomorrow. That’s for exercise. It will help me look and feel better. But that’s different than having plastic surgery. Every time you walk you burn calories. But at least it’s you, your own self, doing exercise. Also exercise is good for your spirits, it lifts your mood. You cannot compare exercise to plastic surgery.

  76. 76 steve
    August 22, 2008 at 16:47

    @ Julie P

    “You neglect that at the traditional college student both sexes are more interested in going out and partying than studying or reading a book of any kind.”

    That depends on the school. Do you really think MIT or cal Tech students spend more time going out on weekends than they do studying? Yale vs. Eastern Carolina University?

    I went to a semi brainiac school (Michigan), and I would study on weekends, and when I would go to the library (usually the graduate library) it was mostly guys, very few female students.

  77. 77 Jens
    August 22, 2008 at 16:48

    Steve and Nick,

    does that not show you are both poor judges of character? i mean heck a girl could look as stunning as anything but if there is nothing between the ears, which you find uot pretty rapidly you just say, good looking but no thanks. you even sex requires brains, otherwise it is just pumping flesh.

  78. 78 Julie P
    August 22, 2008 at 16:51

    Given that obeisty in America has been increasing at a steady pace for the last two decades, it is not unreasonable to see an increase in liposuction, whether the unwanted body fat stay off is another subject, especially given the pressure to remain thin and young looking. As noted earlier men are having more procedures like this and that weight gain over the last two decades is somewhat outpacing women’s weight gain. Source CDC.


  79. 79 Anthony
    August 22, 2008 at 16:52

    Thank must suck, when some shallow man marries a “perfect “ woman not knowing she had a nose job, face lift, chin job, cheek, eye, boob, neck, and everything else job. Then he’s VERY upset when his kids come out not looking like Barbie’s kids. Oh wait, that’s actually really funny!!!

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  80. 80 steve
    August 22, 2008 at 16:52

    @ Jens, were getting really off topic here. Are you suggesting that physical appearance shouldn’t matter at all? We’re both saying the girl was dumb as rocks and as soon as we figured it out, we were gone. Given the prevelance of clubs and all the one night stands that happens , “just pumping flesh” is rather common.

  81. 81 Jonathan
    August 22, 2008 at 16:53


    I agree with the points you made in your reply. I think it’s swell that you value a girl’s mind. So do I. But earlier, you described, correctly and at some length and detail, the many important advantages that accrue to physically attractive women from less enlightened men than you and me. So again, why do you begrudge anyone the opportunity to look great, be she an airhead or an intellectual? Your personal experiences with a “chick” whose interest in bird flu failed to satisfy you do not answer the question and do not explain your position on this!

    Also, if “reading up on dysmorphic disorder doesn’t change a thing,” then why did you supply both a link and an extensive quotation about it?

  82. 82 Meg in Canada
    August 22, 2008 at 16:53


    Teachers give better grades and better treatment to attractive children.

    Do you really think this is true? It’s a horrifying thought. Do you have any studies/articles that prove this actually happens? Whatever happened to the merits of hard work? (I won’t clog up the blog with this because it isn’t todays topic – it just caught my eye).

  83. 83 Julie P
    August 22, 2008 at 16:55


    Good for you, but it still not discount that at the traditional college age, both in school and not, that people at that age are more interested in partying than studying. The school I went to was not a party college, but the students of both sexes who were at the traditional college age, would only talk about their weekend escapades regardless of the subject they were studying.

  84. 84 Bryan
    August 22, 2008 at 16:55

    Come on, you know, there must be one thing, just one, that given the chance you’d change.

    Says who? Much cosmetic surgery is disfigurement. This is especially damaging when surgeons restructure someone’s face, for example by slicing off half of his or her nose.

    Michael Jackson is a good example. I saw before and after pictures of him and he looks nothing like his actual self. He had typical African features. Now he is a pasty-faced horror story with a little turned-up nose, all in the service of some false ideal to look ‘white’. Poor guy must be in agony.

    As Shakespeare wrote in Hamlet:

    This above all: to thine own self be true
    And it must follow as the night the day
    Thou canst not then be false to any man.

    People should be satisfied with their God-given appearance. Cosmetic surgery that radically alters the appearance of the body or the face should be illegal.

  85. 85 Jens
    August 22, 2008 at 16:56


    yeah unfortunatly that is the case. the dumb as rock comment reminds me of a car sticker i saw.

    “bush dumb as a rock, but only dumbber”

    physical appearance does matter. I must have been lucky and only dated and finally married “good-looking” women with brains. Lucky me, i guess?

  86. 86 rawpoliticsjamaicastyle
    August 22, 2008 at 16:57

    @ Nick in the USA,

    Your constantly, one dimensional type reasoning is a little much for me. I can’t even take on your suggestions. So, you win! For real!

    @ Steve,

    But what is the problem with spending alot of time in teh bathroom? Is that like saying it is making these people stupid? I am not sure, please clarify! And, go telling me that they were not studying because they were in the bathrooms. They are young and many on their own for the first time. I would party too, if I felt up to it. As long as people are aware of the consequences of their actions, bring it on is what I say.

    @ Meg in Canada,

    Thanks for that!

    @ Angella,

    Agreed! Everybody wants to look their best! So, why not! I don’t get the player hating on cosmetic surgery. Trust me! So, we are agreed on this one!

    @ Sheikh Kafumba Dukuly,

    More power to you! Marry whoever you choose to! That, I don’ t think, was a debate. The question is, are the people who you want to marry, want to marry you? Just a thought.

  87. 87 Lauren
    August 22, 2008 at 16:58

    Exercise is a very important thing for people to do to stay healthy and it change huge impact on a person’s physical appearance; but what about the things exercise can’t fix?

    If a person is self-conscious about their nose, exercise isn’t going to help. I have no problem with them going under the knife, even though I wouldn’t (it’s like they go at the cartilage with a hacksaw!). It’s unfair to ask a person to go through life feeling bad about themselves. My concern is when people use celebrities and models as a standard representation of attractive and try to emulate them. Sure I wouldn’t mind looking like Angelina Jolie, but to spend thousands of dollars hacking away at my body to try and achieve that goal is tragic.

  88. 88 thespecialone
    August 22, 2008 at 16:59

    Hi every one, Reading the comments above, I think we are gradually straying away from today’s topic. Can we keep our debates in the context of today’s on air topic? We are drifting away and very fast.

  89. 89 Angela in Washington
    August 22, 2008 at 17:00


    I completely agree. I was not comparing the two. I cannot lie I do not enjoy exercising but I will do it if I need to lose some lbs. I would not just surgery as an excuse not to execise.

    You are seem to like and date very attractive women but they must have something else to offer, as well. You stated that several men in DC are dated average looking women, who are not after their money. However, you always discuss these pretty girls that just want money, have you ever tried to date any of those average girls or do you need something more to interest you. You seem like you have nothing positive to say about women, other than the way they look. Women realize that most men are concerned about looks, as are you, so why is it unreasonable for a women to do something to make herself more appealing?

    Also, the kids at MIT and Cal Tech still like to party and the girls there (some) are still concerned about the way they look, it doesn’t just happen at the not so brainiac schools. I went to grad school with mostly women and my friends are in medical(Tufts), dental(MUSC), law(Georgia), and grad(Berkeley) school and the women there are smart and concerned about their looks.

  90. August 22, 2008 at 17:00

    Cosmetic surgery is becoming the vogue even in very conservative countries like Iran: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5391910.stm .
    The most tempted to have a cosmetic surgery are women. Men don’t care if they have a big nose or a big mouth. For them resorting to it is more feminine than masculine, especially when it comes to facial surgery.

    In the end what matters is not having a perfect look but a sense of self-esteem and confidence.

    People who can’t afford a cosmetic surgery should learn to live with their look. What matters is to have a healthy body and not a good looking body that has to suffer because of ongoing surgeries just for the sake of a good look that can add nothing to one’s position in society or performance at work.

  91. 91 Angela in Washington
    August 22, 2008 at 17:02


    That was a good comment.

    Additionally, I know many professional women that want to improve their looks but they are paying for it themselves and it is for them, not their husband or boyfriend.

  92. 92 thespecialone
    August 22, 2008 at 17:04

    @ rawpolitics…Reading your earlier posts, I can confidently say that your reasoning is no less one dimensional than Nick’s. Just a thought.

  93. 93 steve
    August 22, 2008 at 17:04

    @ Lauren

    I dont know. But what about the things exercise can fix, such as losing fat? Instead lots get liposuction. What about that? Getting surgery when exercise can accomplish the same result, while getting you into shape? Is this is a question of instant gratification?

    And where does self consciesness go from that to basically wanting attention? Say if a woman has B cup breasts but wants Ds? You think that’s a self esteem thing, a self consciousness, or a “wow, guys will do more things for me, if I had those”. Perhaps a nose is different, and mayeb the thought it “virtually everyone else has a nose like that, so why shouldn’t I?” which is different than “my boobs are a lot like everyone else’s, but if they were bigger, more men would be interested in me!” It really does make me question someone’s intelligence if they would stick foreign objects inside of their bodies.

  94. 94 Jens
    August 22, 2008 at 17:06

    Julie P,

    the problem is the food that people buy and worse which is supported by the goverment. i would say 85% of the food in supermarkets is BAD indeed VERY BAD for you. everything is stuffen with high fructose corn syrup, filled with chemicals to preserve or enhance the flavours. another issue is the enormeouse quantities of food in restaurants, never mind the over use of deep fat friers.

    i am tempted to open a restaurant that does only serve fresh organic and whole grain (brown rice/pasta) food AND no deep fat friers

  95. 95 Luz Ma from Mexico
    August 22, 2008 at 17:08

    Hi all!
    I only support plastic surgery when there are compelling reasons to undergo it (reconstruction after an accident, attack, extreme obesity, etc.)

    I live in a society where cosmetic surgery is a must (upper middle class in Mexico). I think we are the second country -after the U.S.- in number of cosmetic surgery procedures. I am the only woman in my family and extended family that has not undergo cosmetic surgery (I am talking about my mother, sister, mother in law, and sisters in law). Also, many of my friends have cosmetic surgery. Some relatives and friends pressure me -specially after having my children- to have a liposuction, tummy tuck or nose job. I would never go willingly under the knife!!!

    I think one you start to have cosmetic surgery for sole vanity, you cannot stop. My sister in law has recurred to cosmetic surgery 4 times (2 liposuctions, tummy tuck, boob job) . There wasn´t anything wrong about her, she is naturally thin!

    The sad thing is that many 15 years old ask for liposuctions and nose jobs as “quinceañera” (like sweet sixteen) birthday present. They are only copying what they see in the media and in their environments.

    Finally, I think that the “cosmetic surgery fever” is only a reflection of a materialistic world where apperances are given priority. It is quite sad how so many woman lack self-steem and think that looks are their only way to “succeed” in society.

  96. 96 Angela in Washington
    August 22, 2008 at 17:09


    Fried food is so good occasionally. I could not go without it forever!

  97. 97 nelsoni
    August 22, 2008 at 17:10

    @ Bryan. Excellent point about Micheal Jackson, that is one good example of what happens when cosmetic surgery doesn’t go according to plan.

  98. 98 nelsoni
    August 22, 2008 at 17:13

    @ Luz ma. Well said. *applause*

  99. 99 Anthony
    August 22, 2008 at 17:17

    @ Bryan & nelsoni

    Yes, and have you seen Burt Renolds. Oh my gosh. I seriously FELT SICK when I first saw him post surgery!!! I’ve seen pictures of those fake penis’s and fake vaginas, now those are GROSS (almost threw up) and look NOTHING like real ones!!!

    If it’s ok to get a penis chopped of because deep inside they KNOW they are a woman, can I get implanted claws in my hands because I KNOW deep inside I am a super hero???

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  100. 100 Jens
    August 22, 2008 at 17:18


    i know, i am partial to a good southern fried steak with sweet potato chips myself. however, the sheer amounts of fried food people consume is unbelievable. just go to a feeding troph, like golden corral. i am by no means a skinny guy, but boy i feel like a malnurish child from biaffra when i look at the other customers, kind of negative advertising.

    on my flight back from europe i was shocked at the line of people in front of the american airlines check in. it was like welcome back to fatland. the tow women in fron of me needed a seat belt extension, because “somehow the belt does not fit”. i can tell you the somehow… 10 frigging donuts for breakfast is 10 too many.

  101. 101 Bryan
    August 22, 2008 at 17:18

    Meg in Canada August 22, 2008 at 2:26 pm

    We all have little imperfections that we’d rather not have.

    What is an “imperfection?” And if we all have them, then there is no visible “ideal” towards which we can “strive.”

    The fashion industry decided that women should look like stick insects so now we have thousands of models walking around looking like stick insects and millions of women striving to look like them. Is this an ideal of “perfection?” There are many men who prefer a woman to look like a woman, not to disappear when she turns sideways and stay dry by walking between raindrops when it rains. How many women has anorexia killed? Karen Carpenter, with her exceptional voice, was one of them.

    As Steve pointed out at 1:54 pm, people who want to change their appearance should get counselling. It would probably be a lot cheaper than the surgery with no risk of physical damage and could save them a lifetime of psychological trauma.

  102. 102 Lauren
    August 22, 2008 at 17:20

    @ steve

    I agree with you on the boob job– it’s kind of gross and having smaller breasts (then you want) probably isn’t the thing that’s going to ruin your self-image, but as for the lipo thing, sometimes it’s about instant gratification and sometimes its not. A little extra here and there even with exercise can be an instant gratification thing, but for a person who is very overweight and has difficulty exercising, surgery may be the best option to start. When you have lipo, the doctors don’t tell you “okay, you’re down 80 lbs, you can go home and watch TV on the couch!”. In order to keep the weight off, exercise and healthy eating are needed and most people who dish out a few grand know that and follow through.

  103. 103 Bryan
    August 22, 2008 at 17:21

    nelsoni August 22, 2008 at 5:10 pm,

    Thanks for that nelsoni. I recall that you brought Jackson up on the other thread.

  104. 104 Jens
    August 22, 2008 at 17:22


    but counselling does not cure UGLY. i teach you to accept ugly, but that is it……

  105. 105 steve
    August 22, 2008 at 17:22

    @ Bryan

    It isn’t that we have imperfections, but rather we ARE imperfect. I think that there are too many women that believe perfection exists, and that they can be perfect, which is impossible when you inherently are imperfect. Maybe when I was 17 I believed people can be perfect, but the more you get to know people, you know how imperfect, even incredibly attractive people are.

    I don’t think everyone who wants plastic surgery should get counselling. As I said, a person with a cleft palate just wants to look normal. A burn victim just wants to look normal. I’m sure if your nose was 15x longer than a normal one, you just want to look normal. I don’t think that’s the same as “it isn’t good enough, I want more surgery” or “rich guys will want me if I get this size breast implants”

  106. 106 roebert
    August 22, 2008 at 17:23

    If cosmetic surgery can be used to restructure abnormal, damaged or deformed features, that is surely a blessing and I can see no reason to object. But if it’s a question of improving on the very ordinary face you were born with, there’s suddenly scope for all sorts of neurotic resort to the (money-making) knife. In this case, there should be a sharply defined ethical code preventing practitioners from encouraging and perfoming nonsense surgery.

    What would I like changed about my own appearance? Lots of things, I suppose. But, if I were given the chance, I know I’d back out. I’m comfortable with the very imperfect person I’ve come to know, warts and all. Yes, the implication is that wanting to change your face has more to do with how you feel about your inner person than about your rapidly decaying, weather beaten exterior.

  107. 107 Julie P
    August 22, 2008 at 17:26


    I’ve dicussed at length on a BP about how unfit to eat our food is over high fructose syrup or using high fructose as a filler in food. However, it still does not change that fact that liposuction is on the rise, even with men. In fact, more men opting for that kind of surgery than ever before.

  108. 108 Meg in Canada
    August 22, 2008 at 17:27

    @ Bryan,

    Steve said it for me – we are imperfect beings. As I stated earlier, I don’t think that perfection actually exists!

  109. 109 Jonathan
    August 22, 2008 at 17:28


    I quite agree with you in preferring the substantial to the frivolous. Please suggest some more compelling topics, since you find the recent ones so tedious as to drive you to the desperate and distressing measures you relate. I’m sure WHYS would welcome your ideas.

    Arsenic and slavery are serious indeed, although their value as debate topics might depend on finding anyone to support slavery or argue for arsenic, toward which end I sincerely hope WHYS would not take the easy step of again summoning libertarian stooges, those always-reliable bogeymen.

    Contribute some more ideas please, so that hopefully you may escape your current fate!

  110. 110 Jens
    August 22, 2008 at 17:28

    the entire boob-job thing is a canandrum to me. why not be happy with what’s there. i certainly think large boobs are way over-valued, but then I am a sporty guy and think about the poor girls that have d-plus cups, running and skiing etc must be pretty uncomfortable.

  111. 111 rawpoliticsjamaicastyle
    August 22, 2008 at 17:29

    @ thespecialone,

    I guess we are all entitled to our opinions now, aren’t we? That is what is so great about all this! Thanks, all the same!

  112. 112 Jens
    August 22, 2008 at 17:30

    julie P,

    i have the perfect solution to this problems. we could use liposuction to generate biofuels and improve the health of the nation. i think i should call the obama camp and suggest this as a means to enery independence….;)

  113. 113 Sheikh Kafumba Dukuly
    August 22, 2008 at 17:31

    @ Raw Politics.
    If a person i intend to marry just cannot marry to me because i am not artificially attractive then she is not meant to be my wife. I guess it bows down to choice. Why it is true that your look is your prerogative, be mindful that distorting it could even further dampen your chances of looking good.

  114. 114 Jens
    August 22, 2008 at 17:32


    we could use arsenic to poisen the slave traders…..

  115. 115 Lauren
    August 22, 2008 at 17:35

    @ jens

    yes, yes they are. but that’s where duct tape comes in : )

  116. 116 rawpoliticsjamaicastyle
    August 22, 2008 at 17:35

    @ Anthony,

    I am curious, how did you get to see pics of surgically altered penises and vaginas? That, I find especially funny!

    Seriously, for what it is worth, I want to ask the question again, is there a moral issue attached to the question of cosmetic plastic surgery? Or is this a matter that we are all getting bent out of shape simply (?) because it offends our sensibilities? What is the issue, good or bad, in terms of cosmetic plastic surgery beyond, of course, what we may deem to be inappropriate outcomes of the surgery?

  117. 117 rawpoliticsjamaicastyle
    August 22, 2008 at 17:36

    Are there not more pressing issues in the world than worrying over who has had a boob job, or a surgically restored hymen? I am curious.

  118. 118 Anthony
    August 22, 2008 at 17:39

    @ raw

    You can find them online if you plug that into the Yahoo search engine. (yes, I know Google is # 1, but I LOVE YAHOO!!!)

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  119. 119 Julie P
    August 22, 2008 at 17:40


    It is an untapped natural resource. I think we should use it. There are more and more of us every year with an expanding waist line; let’s go for it.

    As for implants; I don’t get it either. I would never do it; I’m quite pleased with what I was given. Not too hot, not too cold, just right! 😉 None of my friends or women in my family have done it, too many health risks for something that is definitely not needed.

  120. 120 rawpoliticsjamaicastyle
    August 22, 2008 at 17:40

    @ Sheikh Kafumba Dukuly,

    I really don’t know about that. Meaning, we hear much that is made out of the horror stories because in a way we enjoy other peoples’ pain, especially if we think it is deserving.

    But, I am less interested in that and more in the question of what is the moral issue here? What is so fundamentally immoral, wrong, bad with electing to have cosmetic plastic surgery?

    Is this not a question of choice? And, if it is, then, what is the basis of the judgement passed on those who undergo plastic surgery?

    My thinking is, why not just pass on whether or not you want to have the surgery yourself? That sounds like a simple enough response, no? What is the basis of the outpouring of, largely, negative emotions on this issue?

  121. 121 Jens
    August 22, 2008 at 17:40

    OMG, that sounds painfull or kinky depending on ones preferences……..

    now i finally know why i have duct tape with me when i am ski patrolling. it’s all for the poor women with d-plus.

  122. 122 rawpoliticsjamaicastyle
    August 22, 2008 at 17:42

    @ Anthony,

    Talk about having alot of free time! (no dis!), but come on! Who wants to see surgically altered penises and vaginas…unless, of course, you were considering the surgery? Suki-suki, now!!!! LOL!!!!

  123. 123 Jonathan
    August 22, 2008 at 17:44


    Glad to see your comment of 4:53 replying to me; the crickets were deafening! Yes, it’s a horrifying thought, as you say. Yes, I have read articles summarizing studies that proved this actually happens. It’s also apparent to expert observers who don’t shrink from observations just because the conclusions are unsettling. But yes, these were controlled studies as you might imagine: identical essays or whatever, submitted by different students, etc. I read them years ago, when dinosaurs walked the earth and the internet was yet undreamed of, but let’s dig them up now that google makes the job so easy.

    Sometimes it’s exactly the most disturbing observations that most deserve our attention. I’m just relieved not to be talking to myself here…

  124. 124 Jens
    August 22, 2008 at 17:45


    no there are not. did you not know that boobs and beer rule the world, well soccer occassionally, as well.

    even McCain got it when he offered Cindy up for Mrs buffalo competion at sturgis…..

  125. 125 Thea Winter - Indianapolis IN, USA
    August 22, 2008 at 17:45

    Hi all.
    Cosmetic surgery is something I would never do. I would use the money on helping others. There are a lot of people who can benefit from cosmetic surgery to improve their lives. I am sure we have all seen children with misshaped months that receive cosmetic surgery to change their health and lives. Cosmetic surgery after an accident like a fire or car accident is fine too.

    On the other part of the question I would like to change my nose. I think it is wrong for my face but I am not going to spend the money on it. I much rather have my home.

  126. 126 Anthony
    August 22, 2008 at 17:47

    A lot of people are asking why. I know quite a few people who have had this kind of stuff done so let me inform. They HATE themselves, and the MOST IMPORTANT THING in life is to look good. For them being hot is validation. In High School they are criticized, and this adds up over time. They feel very unattractive, and worthless. It’s the parents and yes the media’s fault for this.

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  127. 127 Angela in Washington
    August 22, 2008 at 17:50

    I personally do not have a problem with surgery. I will most definitely have my chest done after kids, but I would not want anything more. Especially, since I don’t like pain. I know it is a personal choice and I am positive whoever I marry will support my decision.

  128. 128 Sheikh Kafumba Dukuly
    August 22, 2008 at 17:51

    @ Raw Politics.
    The reason for the WHYS blog to espouse on various issues that affect our lives and one world.
    over time, we have debated issues with fervor that because they affect us in particular but because those issue affect other lives.
    We debate the topics and issues as they come.

  129. 129 rawpoliticsjamaicastyle
    August 22, 2008 at 17:52

    @ roebert,

    but why should blockades be placed on those who want to have the surgery for the sake of it? Is that not legitimate too? That you are fine with your “warts and all” does not suggest that others are and, by that very token, should be allowed to do as they please. I am not sure who is being harmed in all this? The Tiger Woman leaves feeling happy, the doctors are happy and all is well in the world, at least insofar as the successful completion of the surgery.

    Frankly, I think that the vast majority of us,if given the opportunity, would not choose plastic surgery, for whatever reasons. However, there are just as many others who would for all kinds of reasons. I am unable, in a real way, to see what might be the harm in allowing them freedoms of kind.

  130. 130 Anthony
    August 22, 2008 at 17:52

    @ Raw

    You’re right. I mean why look up pictures of the war in Iraq unless you want to go and kill some insurgents??? Why look into the reasoning of serial killers unless you want to murder??? Why look up child slave labor unless you want to start a shoe factory in China??? You’re reasoning is always entertaining 🙂

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  131. 131 Angela in Washington
    August 22, 2008 at 17:53


    I have to disagree. Football makes the world go around, at least where I am from.

  132. 132 Meg in Canada
    August 22, 2008 at 17:54

    I say this to make light of the issue.. but do you think that people who get surgery (for cosmetic reasons only) are taking the “no pain, no gain” idea a little too seriously? Haha, I thought of it when I read Jens’ comment about taping boobs together…

  133. August 22, 2008 at 17:55

    Hi gang ! ;-)… Well, I have always had a problem with my nose in the past and thought that it does need to be radically changed until three years ago, when my most favourable teacher at college, who used to consider me like a god-daughter of his, had asked me once : ”What kind of doctors do you want to be after you graduate ?!”… I replied : ”I have always wanted to be a pediatrician after I graduate…”… He then said : ”Great ! And you’ve just got the perfect nose for it !!”… I asked surprisingly : ”How ??!”… He replied : ”It’s just that your nose does make your face look pretty innocent, and that’s why I am so sure that little kids will love you and trust you !”… Ever since I had that conversation with him, I completely stopped worrying about how my nose actually looks like… With my love… Yours forever, Lubna…

  134. 134 Sheikh Kafumba Dukuly
    August 22, 2008 at 17:56

    @ Anthony.
    Thank is a good way of looking things. Well said!! i suppose if we discuss crime, we intend to be criminals. i am flabbergasted by your analogy.

  135. August 22, 2008 at 17:56

    The problem here is… is it worth the pain and cost?

    We hear the horror stories, but basically not all surgeries will achieve the desired effect. It may not look as hoped, it may be disfiguring, it may cause many post op problems, perhaps permanent pain or disability. And what then? But people will be dazzled by the promise and the dream of it. Some work out well, more power to them, but a lot don’t and will cause more misery on top of what deficits they already have.

    This is a major decision and a major procedure which will not always go correctly. Think about that and don’t listen to the surgeon, like the mechanic he wants you to go through with it, that is his livelihood after all.

  136. 136 Sheikh Kafumba Dukuly
    August 22, 2008 at 17:58

    We usually discuss for the purpose of advancing ideas for the betterment of our society. Thanks anyway Anthony for your thoughts.

  137. 137 Bryan
    August 22, 2008 at 17:59

    steve August 22, 2008 at 5:22 pm

    Ain’t no such thing as “perfect.” Take the nose. A slightly hooked nose adds character to a face. Would ironing the hook out make it perfect? Of course not. It would just mean that you are denying the person the expression of character though his/her face.

    And if someone’s nose is really big and out of proportion to their face, well, that’s who they are and in the long run they will be far happier learning to live with who they are rather than changing it and giving a false impression.

    I don’t disagree that there are instance where surgery is OK, as in accident victims.

    Meg in Canada August 22, 2008 at 5:27 pm

    Yes, I saw in a subsequent comment you acknowledge there is no perfection.

  138. 138 rawpoliticsjamaicastyle
    August 22, 2008 at 17:59

    @ jens,

    very, very funny!

    By the way, I just love McCain and Cindy. Not my choice for president of the US, but they sure know how to make news on these issues! LOL!

    Yeah, booze and breasts run the world! How sad for all of us!

    @ Anthony,

    No dis, or anything, but it sounds to me that you need to change your friends, at least those who are in so much pain over how they look.

    I am not so sure I would level all the blame on the parents or the media. People need to grow up and recognise that they are making real choices that will impact their lives and act, accordingly!

    I don’t really understand this critique of the media insofar as people who claim it is the media’s fault. I get it, the media could do a much better job of promoting positive images. In some cases, the media could just do their jobs, period! But, there is something to be said for invididual choices!

  139. 139 Amy
    August 22, 2008 at 18:00


    “I think that there are too many women that believe perfection exists”

    Excuse me? You may call the trophy wives “gold diggers”, but how many men are out there looking for perfection? How many of the men married to the “gold diggers” left the first wife and married them. To say that it is just women who believe that perfection exists is wrong, wrong, wrong.

  140. 140 Devra Lawrence-Jamaica
    August 22, 2008 at 18:00

    @ Selena

    I think I should have made another point re “God creating us in His own image”. I still stand that He did … if parents choose to do cosmetic surgery on their children born with some form of deformity, then that’s their choice. This is not done to ENHANCE their look but to FIX a problem. I guess these are sensitive cases which can be viewed differently. But doing cosmetic surgery just because “i don’t like my nose; my forehead is too big; i need a bigger but; my tummy is too big and i’m too lazy to exercise” then that’s where the problem lies.

    Also doin cosmetic surgery for discomfort is also acceptable. For instance having breasts that are way too large, causing dents to appear in your shoulders, back pains etc. then surgery there is okay.

    Those are my views.


  141. 141 Jonathan
    August 22, 2008 at 18:01

    “I would never have cosmetic surgery!” That’s a valid stance–for yourself. Nobody has the right to tell you otherwise.

    “Nobody should have cosmetic surgery!” That’s not a valid stance. You don’t have the right to tell anyone else that.

    This is a moral concern only to the patient. It is nobody else’s business. It is not society’s concern.

  142. 142 rawpoliticsjamaicastyle
    August 22, 2008 at 18:01

    @ Anthony,

    In a way, I am suggesting that the sort of vapid, shallowness that characterises much of how we interact with each other needs to stop, if we are to lead healthy, meaningful lives, where we do not feel like someone else is making decisions for us. Where do we draw the line? When does it ever get to be just way too much? The self hatred that is? And the refusal to take some amount of responsibility on issues like these?

  143. 143 steve
    August 22, 2008 at 18:03

    @ Amy

    As I said, most men realize that perfection doesn’t exist. Whereas I doubt you can say that about women becaues of their quest to be perfect. Sure, more men are getting plastic surgery, but I’m sure the numbers are vastly higher. There is also no male makeup industry, etc. How could a trophy bride be perfect when he knows she’s there for the money? He knows it, he’s just wants sex with a hot woman. Do you think that guy who married Anna Nicole Smith, who was 70 years older her, thought she liked him for anything other than his money? Of course not.

    Amy, my point is, there’s an entire industry devoted to women becoming as “perfect” as they can, via surgery, makeup, clothes, etc.. There’s nothing that comes remotely close for men. Again, even maxim magazine, what is that? It’s just a magazine with articles on gadgets and pictures of women in bikinis. Nothing in there that leads me to believe I could be perfect if I did certain things.

  144. 144 Dan
    August 22, 2008 at 18:03

    If a woman gets cosmetic enhancements because it makes HER feel better what can be wrong with that?

  145. August 22, 2008 at 18:04

    I am reminded what a friend said after we found another friend had a face job.

    She may have a new nose… but her kids will still be ugly.

    Cruel perhaps, but valid and think about it.. one day your kids might think, hmm why don’t I look like my parents?

  146. 146 rawpoliticsjamaicastyle
    August 22, 2008 at 18:04

    @ Anthony,

    So defensive! Wow! I will know better than to take ‘liberties’ of this kind, in future.

    @ Sheikh Kafumba Dukuly,

    Thanks for that!

  147. 147 Anthony
    August 22, 2008 at 18:05

    @ raw

    Once again, in one eye and out the other.

    In the post you’re referring to, I said I KNOW people. I didn’t know if I knew someone, that automatically makes them my friend. (also, if you drop your friends because they are in pain like that, you’re not a very good friend)

    Also, the ability to grow up and how to make choices is taught to you by your parents, society, and the media.

    @ Sheikh Kafumba Dukuly, I have no idea what you’re talking about. Please inform what post you’re speaking of???

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  148. 148 Jens
    August 22, 2008 at 18:05


    well i wish football would be making the world go around here. we have only pretty medioca college football team here in town. they still have not figured-out that scoring is a pre-requisit to actually winning a game. in fact we have pretty suck any teams in town. even pro-sports is 3rd tier.

    you have at least the skins, capitols and wizards, even though they are not high achievers either.


    laureen suggested the duct tape treatment…… although i can see the apeall to a certain people to a certain extent 😉

  149. 149 Anthony
    August 22, 2008 at 18:10

    @ raw

    I also didn’t know that sarcasm was being defensive. Once again with the great reasoning 🙂

    My point was that looking up a picture of something (like a body and face covered with tattoos) doesn’t mean you want to do it. That reasoning is, well, hilarious.

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  150. 150 Angela in Washington
    August 22, 2008 at 18:10


    I don’t support football here in DC. My heart is down south. I only support SEC teams, perferably UGA. As far as professional, I liked the Falcons but not after the Mike Vic situation. Still I like teams that actually win, so I can understand your frustration.

  151. August 22, 2008 at 18:11

    In the first case of the bear attack and tumour, it’s perfectly right to use plastic surgery and all hospitals must have the facilities so that accident victims can be treated.

    But in the second case where money and style gels, going for a perfect figure is definitely against nature and doctors who do it for money are doing against medical ethics for sure. Present fashion may become obsolete in future and these same fellows will try and try to change themselves if their wallet is bulging for sure like their tummies .

    An interesting example i want to cite for this debate happened 5 years back when this became a craze in Mumbai. One women wanted her small breasts to be added with silican implants to make them bigger as her bridegroom wanted bigger breasts and the doctor made them bigger before her marriage by surgery. After some 7 years this same lady approached this doctor saying that she wanted to have surgery to make her big breasts smaller. The astonished doctor asked her why as she had years before made them bigger by surgery, she replied that she has got divorced from the first husband who wanted a bigger breast, and now is going to marry another who after seeing her old photo with her natural small breasts before her first marriage wanted those small breasts hence her request for surgery to making them smaller. This kind of event will be the order of the day with all kinds of beauty contest and like.

    So a slight check on the matter law-wise will be a wise option to curb this unnatural practices which is highly inhuman.

  152. 152 Jens
    August 22, 2008 at 18:11

    @ Andrew,

    i think Churchil said it best

    “’You are drunk Sir Winston, you are disgustingly drunk. ‘Yes, Mrs. Braddock, I am drunk. But you, Mrs. Braddock are ugly, and disgustingly fat. But, tomorrow morning, I, Winston Churchill will be sober.”

  153. 153 rawpoliticsjamaicastyle
    August 22, 2008 at 18:11

    @ Anthony,

    I don’t know about that! Like, I said, if I offended, please acccept my apologies. I am certainly not keen on an argument about friendships.

    In fact, I withdraw my comments about what you said.

    In a more general way, though, I do wish to make the larger point that whereas we are taught to make choices around specific issues in particular ways, in the end, it is really the individual who ultimately makes the choice. The sort of victim psychosis that goes with blaming others for poor choices on a range of issues needs to stop!

    In terms of plastic surgery, I support peoples’ right to choose, regardless. However, choices are political actions that come with a great deal of responsibility. It, therefore, suits us to empower ourselves with information before acting. Just a thought!

  154. 154 Meg in Canada
    August 22, 2008 at 18:12

    @ Andrew

    Your point reminds me of that show that used to be on TV: extreme makeover… where the completely redesign the way a person looks. I remember I caught the end of one episode where the woman (who now looked beautiful) felt strange about not recognizing herself in the mirror and talked about how her children hadn’t recognized her when she went home. They asked where their Mom was… I would imagine hearing that from a small child could be even more debilitating than the self esteem issues she had before the whole process started.

  155. 155 Keith
    August 22, 2008 at 18:12

    I approve of the reconstructive surgery approach…in that case it would just be restoring a bit of pride to a victim of tragedy. However, as far as cosmetic surgery to make yourself look different….well, that’s a little weird. The major argument is that “I need it to make me feel better about myself!” If you think the only way to feel good about yourself is by completely changing your physical identity, then there’s something wrong with you to begin with. I’m more sympathetic to morbidly obese people that would get liposuction as an aid to BEGINNING a healthy lifestyle…but it’s also no replacement for one.

  156. August 22, 2008 at 18:12

    Jason Campbell

    People that choose to undergo cosmetic plastic surgery need psychoanalysis. So many of them have bad self esteem and are prone to more and more surgeries. It is almost like heroin. It makes you feel really really good, but soon the effects fade and you have to keep doing it over and over again more and more each time to reach the same level of satisfaction. No way to live if you ask me.

  157. 157 Julie P
    August 22, 2008 at 18:13


    I’ve dated a few wealthy men in my day and would like to inform you that like everything else they can buy whatever they want, which includes friends, girlfriends, and wives. They aren’t getting involved with “golddiggers” they are in the business of buying people. The ones of I’ve dated I’ve had to tell them I’m not for sale. Steve, they knwo exactly what they are getting themselves into, because they are looking for it.

  158. 158 Keith
    August 22, 2008 at 18:14

    I’m also reminded of a Daniel Tosh joke: “I approve of plastic surgery, because for once in history it allows people to make their outer appearance RESEMBLE their inner appearance….Fake!”

  159. 159 steve
    August 22, 2008 at 18:14

    Wouldn’t Lauren the caller think that losing the weight via exercise vs. surgery would be less risky? She said she’s concerned about the health risks of being overweight. Exercise own it’s own, even if you aren’t overweight, is healthy. Why not lose wieght the healthy way? Is she willing to to the work it’s necessary, or does she want the easy way to lose weight? What’s to stop her from re-gaining the weight? Is she prepared to make a lifestyle change?

  160. 160 rawpoliticsjamaicastyle
    August 22, 2008 at 18:14


    Well, there are alot of things which remain unknown to many.

    For my part, I prefer to speak directly. Rather than through coded expressions which disguise my meaning.

    As I noted earlier, please accept my apologies, if I offended you. That is all I am saying.

  161. 161 Angela in Washington
    August 22, 2008 at 18:15

    I think Lauren should try to accept herself, instead of trying to get surgery.

  162. 162 Anthony
    August 22, 2008 at 18:15

    @ raw

    Yes, I agree with you. People should be free to do it, but I hate it. I also hate Racism, but I’ll die to protect people’s American right to be/think racist.

    Also, did everyone here the girls. What are they saying. T.V. and High School.

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  163. 163 Angela in Washington
    August 22, 2008 at 18:16

    Thank you for saying that Julie P.

  164. 164 rawpoliticsjamaicastyle
    August 22, 2008 at 18:17

    @ Jens,

    You are a riot!!! Love it!!! Totally!!!

  165. 165 Jens
    August 22, 2008 at 18:18


    ohh so you are from the south. funny many people mock southerners, but i really like all the folks i have met from that area, plus some of the best food in the states has it’s roots down there.

    i would love to watch a decent game. i used to go and see the red wings and michigan hockey when i was in ann arbor

  166. 166 steve
    August 22, 2008 at 18:18

    What’s it with women about wantint go keep their age secret or lying about that? I think that’s tied into the issue of women being overly concerned about their appearances and what others think about them, which is all tied into the general overall low self esteem women have.

  167. 167 rawpoliticsjamaicastyle
    August 22, 2008 at 18:19

    @ Anthony,

    Great! So, now we can move on! Thank, God!

    Seriously, I find the argument in relation to psychoanalysis for people who think they need plastic surgery a little much. Is that not like a major generalisation? Do we know this for a fact? Or, are people just getting antsy because the idea of cosmetic plastic surgery offends their sensibilities? I am curious.

  168. 168 Nick in USA
    August 22, 2008 at 18:19

    @ Lubna

    That’s an amazing story. It’s little moments like this that make life worth living. I used to despise my red hair, but now I wouldn’t trade it for anything because it is part of who I am. Though, I still hate getting my cheeks pinched by old ladies who think it’s cute.

    P.S. I might not need to trade my hair because I’ll probably lose it first, haha.

  169. 169 Keith
    August 22, 2008 at 18:19

    @ Selena-
    good point, I suppose I would support surgery to fix something that is obviously a birth defect. I guess I would draw the cosmetic surgery vs. fixing a birth defect line at “I will know it when I see it.”

  170. 170 Jens
    August 22, 2008 at 18:21

    julie P.

    that is unfair. i never managed to date a wealthy woman…..dang only poor college girls, while being poor myself.

  171. 171 rawpoliticsjamaicastyle
    August 22, 2008 at 18:21

    @ Steve,

    ‘the overall low self esteem that women have’? Do you actually believe these things, or do you just say them to get a rise out of the group? I am curious. Cause, surely, this is not true. Is it?

  172. 172 Angela in Washington
    August 22, 2008 at 18:22


    My uncle went to Michigan and loved watching the games there. Now he is in Charleston, which has NO good teams but they have good food.

  173. 173 Anthony
    August 22, 2008 at 18:23

    @ steve

    I think its funny that women say they’re younger, try to look as young as possible, yet the same women thinks a man who finds a 16 year old attractive is a disgusting, perverted pig who should burn in hell.

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  174. 174 Keith
    August 22, 2008 at 18:23

    @ Anthony-
    You’d die in the name of racism? That’s messed up.
    Just kidding 🙂

  175. 175 steve
    August 22, 2008 at 18:24

    @ raw

    I would say the vast vast majority of women have very low self esteem. Ever wonder why it’s so common for women to go after bad boys/abusive guys? You stand a much better chance of getting a woman if you treat her badly than if you treat her well. That’s due to them having low self esteem and not thinking they deserve any better. I would say that the self esteem of women in society is at emergency alert level.

  176. 176 Keith
    August 22, 2008 at 18:25

    @ The woman on the phone-
    ….ummm yea surgery is dangerous. Infection is like the #1 killer in a hospital.

  177. 177 Katy
    August 22, 2008 at 18:26

    As an overweight 22 year old woman in America, I am expossed to the same media images as Laura. However, I feel that Laura’s problem is not her weight, but her issue is with self confidence. I resent Laura’s self imposed role as a victim of her weight and of society. If a woman feels good about herself, eats healthfully and is active, what does it matter what she weighs? If she’s happy with herself, at any weight, the media images that women are exposed to everyday wont negatively impact them.

    Even if Laura does get weight loss surgery and gets to her “ideal” weight, she will find something else that is wrong with her. The problem isn’t her weight, it’s her self esteem.

  178. 178 Nick in USA
    August 22, 2008 at 18:26

    “Wouldn’t Lauren the caller think that losing the weight via exercise vs. surgery would be less risky? She said she’s concerned about the health risks of being overweight. ”

    Agreed! I knew an overweight girl in college who said she wanted to get a breast enlargement, so her belly wouldn’t look so big. Of course, I brought up the idea of trying to lose the belly instead. She agreed it was a better idea, but thought it would be more difficult.

  179. 179 Julie P
    August 22, 2008 at 18:26


    I think it’s natural auburn hair, green eyes, bikini figure, that I’ve traveled, can carry a conversation, have an education, and I am self made. I’m serious, not once did I ever go looking for them. I met them striking up pleasant chit chat while waiting for a table at busy restaurants. Really.

  180. 180 Angela in Washington
    August 22, 2008 at 18:27

    @Jens and Julie P

    I know several men who have “sugar mamas.” Many of my male friends have women that spend a lot of money on them. I don’t understand it but some women like to spoil their mates. One of my friends is dating a 40 year old and she pays for stuff for him. I don’t understand it but my cousin just got this women to buy him a car.

  181. 181 Julie P
    August 22, 2008 at 18:27


    Not a problem.

  182. 182 Keith
    August 22, 2008 at 18:27

    I don’t like that woman…she’s basically saying since the girl is 23 her opinion isn’t valid.

  183. 183 Jens
    August 22, 2008 at 18:28


    at one point in the relationship one will have to disclose the birthday and age. otherwise no birthday presents, and since all women acccording to you are ‘gold diggeres” they would not want to miss-out on that, now would they???

    hell does adge really matter that much? and what the hell is wrong with a woman looking after herself. i go to the dam gym, use moisteriser cream, shave, wear aftershave and dress well, especially for a scientist, well at least my personal opinion. there is absolutly nothing wrong with careing for yourself and make yourself look presentable. in many instances first impressions stick, just think job interview and let’s face it dating is like a job interview. you wanna get the best possible mate….

  184. 184 Amy
    August 22, 2008 at 18:28


    There is an entire industry now pointed at men to improve themselves. These men call themselves “metrosexuals” and their numbers are increasing. And you cite Maxim magazine and the pictures of the women in bikinis. I am sure you enjoy those pictures. Do you really think everything on those girls are real? There is an industry for women but please don’t try and say there isn’t a growing one for men. You do really seem to have a problem with women in general. It seems that we can do nothing right in your eyes. We are either unattractive but smart (and you aren’t attracted to us) or we are pretty but stupid, shallow, whatever label you favor today (and you use us for sex and discard us).

  185. August 22, 2008 at 18:28

    -Lynne writes

    People should be required to have therapy before undergoing cosmetic surgery because I think that people want to cut up their bodies for reasons other that wanting to look differently, I think there is a deeper issue. Either you are too self-obsessed and lack a global perspective, not realizing that there are much bigger, real problems in the world other than your own nose, or you have a deeper emotional issues (learning how to accept and love one’s self should be a part of every emotionally healthy life). Mutilating your body with cosmetic surgery won’t help either one of these issues. (Of course, cosmetic surgery for medical reasons, such as breast reductions due to back problems, or reparative work after burns, etc., are a different issue).

    In the 1970’s my mother, who had extremely crooked teeth, went to a dentist and asked for braces. He asked “Why do you want braces?” and she thought it was obvious: because her teeth were so crooked! He suggested she seek a counselor. This may seem extreme today, but I think it’s spot on and the fact that so many people seek cosmetic surgery is sad.

    It’s also a manifestation of society’s obsession with quick-fixes, instant gratification, and misogynistic undertones that there is something wrong with a woman’s body the way that it is.

    Every time I hear of someone getting cosmetic surgery I just think, “Get real!”

  186. 186 rawpoliticsjamaicastyle
    August 22, 2008 at 18:28

    @ Angela in Washington DC,

    Are the two things are anti-thetical, that is, in terms of what you say is Lauren’s need to accept herself as compared to surgery? Is one the inverse of the other? Or, is that a sort of convenient explanation we often give as to deter others from choosing surgery?

    My view is, if you are going under the knife for whatever reason, then something is obviously wrong. Whether that ‘wrong’ is purely cosmetic or to alter some birth defect, defects caused by an accident, or whether it masks some deep seated sets of issues in relation to one’s self.

    In any event, if that is what you have to do to feel better (and that term is relative!) about yourself, then I cannot see a problem with this option.

    What I certainly hear coming out this discussion, though, is the fact that perhaps as part of the ‘treatment’ patients also need to be allowed the option of counseling. Now, should that be mandatory or should it optional? I am sure we could also debate that.

    Still, I maintain that whatever you need to do to deal with whatever issues you are having, then, by all means bring it on; that is, within the context of the law, etc.

  187. 187 Meg in Canada
    August 22, 2008 at 18:29

    @ Steve,

    You stand a much better chance of getting a woman if you treat her badly than if you treat her well.

    Personally I think this statement couldn’t be farther from the truth. None of the people I’ve dated have lasted very long if they don’t treat me well! They can forget it! Doesn’t it also say something about the men if they actually believe that statement and live by it?

  188. 188 Angela in Washington
    August 22, 2008 at 18:29


    All women do not have low self esteem. I do not have low self esteem. And for Lauren, looking in a particular way does not mean you will get in a relationship.

  189. 189 Luz Ma from Mexico
    August 22, 2008 at 18:30

    @women being more “obsesive” than men about their looks

    I think that this is true, but it happens because women are perceived in patriarchal societies as “objects” rather than “subjects”. However, many women in such societies -like me- want to be free of that stereotype and we are fighting for it.

    In my case, I grew up in upper middle-class Mexico. I had, what is called, “a knockout body” before having children (I was size 4-6, perfect boobs, great behind, everything tight because I took dance classes 5 days a week). When I got pregnant, obviously, my body changed (I gained weight, got stretch marks, cellulitis, etc.) I am happy with that, I think is the natural consequence of giving birth. No regrets; only happiness for having two beautiful, healthy and wonderful daughters 😉

  190. 190 Meg in Canada
    August 22, 2008 at 18:30

    In response to Lynne,

    To add to your wonderful argument, I’d like to say that the most challenging, exciting and stimulating relationships each of us will ever have is the one we have with ourselves. 🙂

  191. 191 Thea Winter - Indianapolis IN, USA
    August 22, 2008 at 18:30

    To the caller who is going to have the surgery to weight loss.

    When I was in highschool I was overweight. Again, I did had a boyfriend at that time. I then lost weight in my late 20’s and 30’s I did have a boyfrined then also. Now that I am in my 40’s I am overweight agian but am working hard to take off the weight. I think when we are overweight we want to take an easy way to get the extra weight off. Remember, that you will have to work out after the surgery to keep that weight off. I think it would be better to take the weight off and not have the surgery.

  192. 192 Jens
    August 22, 2008 at 18:31


    not just good food, excellent food according to anthony bourdain. plus from what i have see it is the city of southern charm and style.

    i must visit me thinks.

    yeah michigan was a pretty nice place, but for the mosquitos……my wife was bitten so much i thought she was infected with small pox 😉

  193. 193 steve
    August 22, 2008 at 18:32

    @ Jens

    Please stop taking this off topic. This is a discussion about plastic surgery and related issues, such as self esteem. I never said tha tall women are golddiggers. I said women that become trophy wives are. I don’t know how you can make such a stretch from what I wrote. Stay on topic.

  194. 194 Nick in USA
    August 22, 2008 at 18:33

    @ Raw

    Anthony is defensive? Who said this?

    “Your constantly, one dimensional type reasoning is a little much for me. I can’t even take on your suggestions. So, you win! For real!”

    It was you. Using condescending insults instead of defending your arguments is not defensive? How does that logic work?

    I do feel that there is a moral issue involved in plastic surgery. You can die! That means all of your loved ones won’t be able to see you anymore because you want bigger boobs. That’s a selfish risk to be taking.

  195. 195 Anthony
    August 22, 2008 at 18:34

    @ raw

    “great, now we can move on”. Wow. Thank you so much for the verification. I’m glad that you said that, now I know for sure its over. 🙂

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  196. 196 Sharif
    August 22, 2008 at 18:34

    Despite the health benefits of having cosmetic surgery, there are some trends. To provide a Middle Eastern perspective, there are some countries that have had their economies grow substantially due to the commercialisation of being beautiful. In Lebanon, a it is known that some banks make substantial profits from rhinoplasty and breast augmentation loans to residents. In fact, it is so normal to have surgery for aesthetic purposes in Lebanon that it is almost like a part of their culture. And the entertainment industry there adds fuel to the fire by attracting individuals from other Arab countries to go there to have operations too. The fact that they conduct so much surgery is purely driven by the need to look good, which in my opinion is wrong.

    Conversely, you have Iran, which is well known for rhinoplasty. The reason though is not really commercially driven but because of the fact that interestingly, many Iranians have large noses – which can make breathing difficult.

    In my opinion, surgery is defined by need, but when those needs are strongly influenced and damaged by external sources, then having a job done is wrong.

  197. 197 rawpoliticsjamaicastyle
    August 22, 2008 at 18:35

    @ Steve,

    I cannot agree with anything you have to say on the issue of low self esteem as it relates to women and those who choose bad boys! I believe that like attracts like in many respects, not all, but many.

    If the issue is about ‘bad boys’, then, perhaps that is what floats those particular women’s boats. I say bring it on! Who am I to tell people not to choose what they like?

    However, to get back to the question of low self esteem and plastic surgery, specifically in the case of women. I don’t doubt there may well be a link, but I strongly doubt whether it is either the only one or the strongest one, necessarilly. In my view, if we have to resort to these strategies to cope with the world then there are obviously some other questions other than mere appearances which need answering.

    However, to shield someone from the ‘risks’ – unless, of course, they could die from the surgery, because we fear that their esteem in self is low does not seem either fair, or practical (?) to me. If you are not the one doing the surgery, then, what is the big deal?

  198. 198 Nick in USA
    August 22, 2008 at 18:36

    @ Meg

    “You stand a much better chance of getting a woman if you treat her badly than if you treat her well.”

    My personal experience, has led me to this conclusion, as well. This is not to say that this is the case with all women, just that I have noticed this to be the trend.

  199. 199 Sebastian
    August 22, 2008 at 18:38

    Nothing beats the attractiveness of people who feel good about themselves.

    Like the body, the mind can be exercised, and they different ways to go.

  200. 200 Angela in Washington
    August 22, 2008 at 18:38


    You must definitely go. It is an amazing town. However, the mosquitos are bad down south, as well.

  201. 201 Keith
    August 22, 2008 at 18:38

    @ Amy
    “I’m sure you enjoy those girls”-
    speaking for a lot of men, I don’t like the fake breasts. What’s with the misconception that men love fake breasts? If you get fake breasts, you’re going to attract the kind of man that LIKES fake breasts….who are probably not the “target market”.

  202. 202 Rash
    August 22, 2008 at 18:38

    no way on earth i would go under knife to change any part of my skin!!! im content with my skills and gifts, both positive and negetive.

    but im not against surgery undertaken to restore the impact of accidents,etc…its the right of any one who had faced such an event(just my thought)

    why do you all think we are born the way we are?if “perfect” ever existed, don’t you think we’d be born with full clothing, in riches, lead a life without trouble or sadness of any kind??? or do you want to become the “perfect” person, just to DIE in the end of your life time?what is the point of wasting away valuable money and time on something that will deteriorate after your body is burnt to ashes or burried under the soil of earth??

    i would rather invest the time and money to do something that would result in everyone’s admiration lik princess Di, who is remembered by the world even after her death.

    as for those who would take the risk and do cosmetic surgery, well we can’t really blame them for the desire they have to be better and more beautiful, can we?
    i think the culture in which these yougsters are being brought up (unlimited TV, internet access to all types of sites etc, to name a few) also supports and foster the beliefs that cosmetic surgery is the only way that can make them feel more confident and sure of themselves.and besides, as someone mentioned earlier, ” beauty is in the eyes of it’s beholder”, isn’t it?

  203. 203 Richard in Canada
    August 22, 2008 at 18:38

    I don’t believe that self-image is as cut & dried as we tend to consciously judge. While the numbers of women getting cosmetic surgery are incomparably higher than than those of men, i know my self image would improve drtamatically if I could get some scars removed. Let’s remember that it’s not nearly as socially accepatable for men to devote funds into what is widely considered to be vanity. We’d see many more men having aesthetic surgery if it were not sneered at and if it were not so expensive.

  204. 204 steve
    August 22, 2008 at 18:38

    @ Nick

    Yes, as I said, not all women, but most have low self esteem. We’re getting a bit off topic, though the self esteem issue does relate to plastic surgery and why people have it done.

  205. 205 Anthony
    August 22, 2008 at 18:39

    @ Nick in USA

    Well thank you Nick. I’m glad I’m not the only one who is noticing this 🙂

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  206. 206 Jens
    August 22, 2008 at 18:41


    i never said TALL women are gold diggers ;), at least i do not hope so since my wife is fairly tall. must ask her postion during lunch. i streched your argument for arguments sake.

    if somebody wants to alter their body they should be free to do so. just look at all the piercings and tatoos etc. almost as if some pretty girls are trying to make themselves more ugly….

  207. 207 steve
    August 22, 2008 at 18:41

    @ Keith

    I agree. I’ve never met a guy who said they like fake breasts. I would prefer small real ones to large fake ones. In fact, I think the only place men want to even see those is at strip clubs. Do women honestly want to be associated with strippers? If so, then the issue is a lot deeper than the show is getting into. I’ve never met any guy, maybe htere are some out there, who prefers fake to real.

  208. 208 Anthony
    August 22, 2008 at 18:42

    Here’s a question for the Dr.:

    If a women asked you “can you give me Chinese eyes, and a Black nose” what would you say to them???

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  209. 209 Line Walker
    August 22, 2008 at 18:43

    @ steve

    i’m really insulted at your sweeping generalizations of women, especially college level women. as a grad student in illustration i spend 90% of my time working on illustration, as do my counterparts, not primping on front of the mirror as you assume.

    as for men not being as susceptible to media body images as women, i think that is also false. it is just that the idea of media / commercial driven male perfection (as with women) is a newer concept. plastic surgery is becoming more common and acceptable for men, as the saturation becomes more intense and targeted.

    according to: http://www.cosmeticplasticsurgerystatistics.com/statistics.html#2007-HIGHLIGHTS :though women have most cosmetic surgeries, with an increase of only 1%, men have increased 17% from 07.

    i still reiterate that body image should come from the inside, and not from media sources. all people should realize that if you have to airbrush models into magazines that they are being presented a poisonous and unreal ‘idealized’ body image, one that is false and unattainable.

  210. 210 Keith
    August 22, 2008 at 18:43

    double eyelids? Sounds like evolution!

  211. 211 DJ - Portland, OR
    August 22, 2008 at 18:43

    Absolutely nothing is wrong with cosmetic surgery as long as
    the person who is having it understands the possible risks and complications.
    Not to mention that if one is not inherently happy with oneself, not even surgery will change one’s outlook. That having been said, surgery in my case boosted my self-confidence about my appearance and enabled me to feel more comfortable in my own skin. I think that some people can possibly go overboard with multiple procedures, but I think that ultimately every individual who chooses to make cosmetic changes/enhancements is entitled to do so without being judged by others. In the end, we can only choose to do what is best for ourselves, and not worry about the decisions others make for themselves.

  212. 212 Angela in Washington
    August 22, 2008 at 18:44


    What would that prove? You are just stating the stereotypical things that moat people want to change.

  213. August 22, 2008 at 18:44

    Obviously, cosmetic surgery can have a positive effect on the lives of individuals who have suffered, for example, a horrific automobile accident and suffered major face or bodily injury. Although, it maybe interesting to note that much costemic surgery for the sake of “keeping up appearances” speaks to a separation in social/ecomomic classes. I suspect your glamor magazine guest can easily effort the huge expense in maintaining her youthful, yet false beauty.

  214. 214 rawpoliticsjamaicastyle
    August 22, 2008 at 18:44

    Ok. I concede. Nick you are right! And, Anthony you are right! Now what? (Hopefully, we can move on! LOL! I love it!)

    Guys, really!

    As far as I am concerned, I get the point about the likelihood of death, but how many people actuallyd die as a result? Is this a case of the immorality of the victim’s choice, or is this a question of malpractise? If one dies from taking a ‘fairly common procedure’ from a quack, then, in a way the issue is less about the poor choice – though that is a consideration, and more the question of who is performing this procedure.

    I just wonder whether much of what we say is actually informed by real information, and I say that with a great deal of respect. But, seriously, of all the numbers of surgeries done in this regard, what is the death rate like and where does it happen the most? Who is performing these surgeries? That, to me, sounds like an issue of proper regulations.

    Aren’t doctors supposed to be professionally trained, certified and regulated by professional bodies? This does not mean there will be no accidents but, hopefully, it will lessen the likelihood of such, I think!

  215. 215 Jens
    August 22, 2008 at 18:46


    it is on my to do list. it’s just so rare that i am over on the east coast. i am more of the mountain kind of person, that likes scuba. kind of contradiction.

  216. 216 Meg in Canada
    August 22, 2008 at 18:47

    I think Sebastien said it best. Well done!

  217. 217 steve
    August 22, 2008 at 18:47

    I’m still a little upset with people blaming the west or the media, rather than people blaming themselves. Nobody is forcing you to do this stuff. I see good looking guys, athletes, celebrities, and I don’t compare myself to them, because I’m not them. When you blame the media, you don’t accept responsibility for your own actions. They never held a gun to your head. They never made you buy the magazine. Remember, Eleanor Roosevelt said “you can’t feel inferior to anyone with giving your consent”. You’ve given your consent when you blame the media. You choose to feel inferior.

  218. 218 Anthony
    August 22, 2008 at 18:49

    @ Angela

    Thats my point. They wont because they make people look more “white”. Whos to say Chinese eyes or Black noses aren’t beautiful??? Why change those stereotypical things???

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  219. 219 Jens
    August 22, 2008 at 18:51

    i don’t get it. don’t we live in a free society where everybody can decide if they want their nose longer/shorter, their boobs bigger/smaller more cleavage more saggy, fake sixpack, longer or shorter ears etc…

    who are we to dicated to others, what we percieve as what they have to do or not

  220. 220 Keith
    August 22, 2008 at 18:53

    I don’t think you can get plastic surgery to change your height lol

  221. 221 Jens
    August 22, 2008 at 18:53

    let’s have a simple poll.

    who on today’s board would consider or has had cosmetic surgery. i had some minor dental cosmetic surgery, because on of my teeth was chipped.

  222. 222 Keith
    August 22, 2008 at 18:54

    I thought it was that breasts get bigger when you get pregnant…..and then go back to normal

  223. 223 steve
    August 22, 2008 at 18:54

    @ Angela

    Do you think having breast implants makes it more difficult, or less difficult to search for breast cancer?

    You said you don’t want them bigger, but want them to stay the same, if you say they shrink, they’re still adding somthing. How will that impact things?

  224. 224 Jens
    August 22, 2008 at 18:54


    you are mistaken. you can get cosmetic surgery to change your height.

  225. 225 rawpoliticsjamaicastyle
    August 22, 2008 at 18:55

    @ Nick in the USA, and Anthony,

    I realise that, somewhere in all this, there may well be a penchant for ganging up on me today by, especially Anthony, which is totally fine!

    My only problem with it, however, is that I really do not care to be drawn into a discussion that seems to alter, in some ways, my meaning to construe them as other than they are. In that regard, owever, I sincerely hope that I am within my right not to speak to representations of what I have said that do not characterise my intent.

    That being said, as I stated earlier, if I have caused offense to you Anthony, I apologise. I really do not have the stomach for what you claim is “sarcasm” and or whatever else strategies you are employing currently. I will pass, thank you very much! You win!

  226. 226 Angela in Washington
    August 22, 2008 at 18:57


    Well if you get a chance to go to the Southeast, Charleston is a nice place, with pretty people.

  227. 227 Anthony
    August 22, 2008 at 18:57

    @ Jens and Keith

    Yeah, A lot of “little people” get leg implants (they break the legs, insert something or other, then let them heal) to be able to do day to day things easier.

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  228. 228 Keith
    August 22, 2008 at 18:58

    @ jens
    really? That’s actually pretty awesome.

  229. 229 rawpoliticsjamaicastyle
    August 22, 2008 at 18:58


    I would consider it, depending on what the procedure is. If visiting an orthodontist counts then I am in!

  230. 230 Jens
    August 22, 2008 at 18:58


    that’s what i said. plus tall people can have bone removed.

    anyway i am off for some cosmetic surgery. i need to extend my stomach by filling it with Pho soup.

  231. 231 Angela in Washington
    August 22, 2008 at 18:59


    You have made a valid point but I want certain things to stay the same.

  232. 232 Anthony
    August 22, 2008 at 18:59

    @ raw

    First off, I’m not offended. I haven’t been responding anymore to that comment but you seem to be stuck on it.

    Secondly, I though you dropped it???

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  233. 233 Jens
    August 22, 2008 at 19:00


    i shall try to make it over there. might actually end up at one point on the east coast.

  234. 234 Hailey
    August 22, 2008 at 19:00

    If a person is not deformed or disfigured, then I find cosmetic surgery disgustingly self-indulgent. If people want to feel better about themselves, perhaps they should volunteer to help the less fortunate instead of obsessing about their physical appearance and supposed “flaws.”

    It seems to me that the entire cosmetic surgery industry relies on the idea that we must all look one particular way to be attractive. For women, we are told (and sold) that being attractive means thin bodies with ample and perky breasts, moderately tanned skin, white teeth, a slim nose, a Caucasian eyelid, pouty lips, etc. The advent of cosmetic surgery has meant that non-conformity to this standard is even less acceptable than before. Asian women have eyelids constructed and black women have their noses thinned, which makes the practice rather racist in addition to its obvious sexism.

    Even if they look OK, having artificially modified bodies is not as valuable to me as being naturally attractive. Scientists can make cubic zirconias in a lab, but they will never be as valuable and enticing as the nature-made diamond. One is cheap and fake, one is rare and genuinely beautiful. Personally, I’d rather be a small diamond with a few inclusions than a huge, clear, and artificial cubic zirconia.

  235. 235 Angela in Washington
    August 22, 2008 at 19:01


    I can understand that point.


    I guess that is just a risk I will have to take. I am talking about something I would like to have done in 15 or more years. There is no way I would get any of that done now.

  236. 236 Anthony
    August 22, 2008 at 19:01

    WOW!!! This was a kinda scattered last few couple days / WHYS topics. I hope Monday we can talk about Russia and have more order 🙂

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  237. 237 Angela in Washington
    August 22, 2008 at 19:06


    I was just raised with the understanding that you have to do a lot for beauty, being a female. As I said before, my family is extremely materialistic and superficial. You need to be thin, marry the “right” person, have your kids go to the right school, have the nice house, and amazing car. I am only thin, so my family thinks I am far behind. Especially, since most of the woment in my family were married by 25. I am definitely behind the scale.

  238. 238 Bryan
    August 22, 2008 at 19:08

    Jens August 22, 2008 at 5:22 pm


    but counselling does not cure UGLY. i teach you to accept ugly, but that is it……

    A lady said to Winston Churchill, “Sir, you are drunk!”

    “Yes, madam,” he replied, “and you are ugly but in the morning I shall be sober.”

    What is really ugly, of course, is people disfiguring themselves to appear “pretty.”

  239. 239 rawpoliticsjamaicastyle
    August 22, 2008 at 19:08

    @ Anthony,

    I thought so too!…So, it is agreed! Thank, God, I don’t have to sit here and read the rest of these posts!

    Bye y’all! Be sure to catch you later!

  240. 240 steve
    August 22, 2008 at 19:10

    @ Angela

    Then that is your family’s fault. That sort of aims in life is a recipe for living miserably. Because there will always be “now I need this”. However most everyone else is blaming the media, or the west, for the actions people willingly take themselves! Don’t forget also that in general, men are raised expected to be breadwinners, and to work and work and work until they die basically. When they don’t wind up being a “breadwinner” they feel inadequate.

  241. 241 Julie P
    August 22, 2008 at 19:10


    I wouldn’t be too concerned what your family wants you to do. Mine had their own ideas as to what they wanted me to do, to follow the family pattern. My parents even went to so far as to find a man for me to marry. I busted up laughing at them whent that happened. Angela, after a while your family will come to accept you for the person you are. Remember you are their child and they will see that way until they come to accept you as an adult. It took mine a while, but they caught on.

  242. 242 rawpoliticsjamaicastyle
    August 22, 2008 at 19:14

    PS: @ Angella,

    I think it is understood that men and women are raised in different ways. It seems to me that the issue of what constitutes beauty is, in many ways, your perogative intersected by certain recieved wisdoms (?). That being the case, it is perfectly legitimate, I think, for women to have beauty rituals and for wanting to look their best, even if that means big boobs as a bonus! I certainly embrace the diversity that life offers us in that regard. As for jumping up and saying that all women suffer from low self esteem because they want to look their best – whatever that means, is certainly flawed reasoning. In fact, it is downright incorrect!

    That being said, we know there are vapid and shallow people everywhere. That is life. We work with it! Part of life! I prefer, however, to see it as what adds to the contrasts, textures and tones! So, I say, bring on the beauty rituals and work what yah momma gave you! LOL!

  243. 243 Angela in Washington
    August 22, 2008 at 19:18


    I never said it was right but my family. As you stated I am expected to have a good job but not be the breadwinner. Additionally, I am fine with the way I look, as are my relatves. I am actually the worst looking of all of my cousins. I usually tell people this and they never beleive me until they meet my family. The women in my family are very attractive and I am not blaming anyone. I have a mind of my own, not like Laura that said she wants to feel better. Society presents an image of pretty women that are white but I can’t change the fact that I am black. Some people need to accept themselves and stop blaming other people for the way they feel. Changing my imperfections will not make me a better person, I just want to get it later. You know like some people just want kids!!!

  244. 244 Nick in USA
    August 22, 2008 at 19:18

    @ Jens

    “anyway i am off for some cosmetic surgery. i need to extend my stomach by filling it with Pho soup.”

    Hilarious, and Vietnamese Pho is awesome!

  245. 245 Nick in USA
    August 22, 2008 at 19:19

    @ Raw

    I was ganging up on you? I never once made a personal attack on you, but you said:

    “Your constantly, one dimensional type reasoning is a little much for me. I can’t even take on your suggestions.”

    Please show me one of my posts where I was this condescending or insulting to you.

  246. 246 Lovemore
    August 22, 2008 at 19:21

    Michael Jackson had it and the man must be regretting it big time.

    Lovemore Nanjaya,

  247. 247 Bryan
    August 22, 2008 at 19:25

    rawpoliticsjamaicastyle August 22, 2008 at 5:52 pm,

    Ah, yes, freedom of choice and the right to do as you please. What’s the harm in cosmetic surgery, so the argument goes.

    Hell, why be yourself when you can be anyone else?!

    You may have the ‘right’ to deceive yourself, but do you have the right to deceive others with a forged identity?

  248. 248 roebert
    August 22, 2008 at 19:28

    Rawpolitics, I agree that freedom of choice should never be diminished by legislation. As you rightly point out: if I am happy with my ‘warts and all’, that doesn’t mean everyone has to be. But I wasn’t implying that everyone has to be. I was simply answering the question at the top of the page: ‘What would you like changed about yourself?’ and making the point that there is probably a psychological problem that drives people to want to alter their normal appearance.

    In suggesting legal guidelines, I’m not implying that people’s choices in this regard should be limited. The legislation should be aimed at preventing unscrupulous surgeons from exploiting neurotic patients. The central question here would be: how many women ( because it is mostly women, not so?), having exercised their free choice under pressure from a stupid partner or some fashion rag, and helped along by a cosmetic surgeon, end up weeping for the rest of their lives whenever they look at their new faces or other restructured features.

    Women, in particular, are pressured in all sorts of ways to improve their looks. I think that’s a pity. Every woman is beautiful in her own way; this or that special feature, or this or that way of doing or saying things etc etc. If you spend enough time in any woman’s company you’ll find her specific beauty; so why pressure her to get bigger tits or higher cheekbones or whatever?

    This is what these so-called surgeons thrive on.

  249. 249 rawpoliticsjamaicastyle
    August 22, 2008 at 19:32

    PPS: @ Nick in the USA,

    Please accept my apologies if I caused offense. I am genuinely sorry.

    I will use this forum to ask Kate McGough, the Producer, if she would be so kind as to forward my email to you. Perhaps we might speak there? That is, if you are interested? I really, however, must away!

  250. 250 rawpoliticsjamaicastyle
    August 22, 2008 at 19:39

    PPPS: @ Bryan,

    I am going to take a pass on that reading of what I said earlier.

    @ Roebert,

    Well said. We are agreed!

    One minor point, please do not read my entry as a wholesale suggestion that we mandate, or even enforce cosmetic surgery. My point, fundamentally, is: the right to choose needs to be protected and that the extent to which this is a matter of choice, I cannot support any call for restrictions simply (?) on the basis that it offends our sensibilities or we do not like how people who have had these surgeries look afterwards.

    When we make choices, it is hoped that we consider very carefully about what we are doing before exercising this right. A discussion which provides more credible information about plastic surgery; its risks and benefits, I think, would be far more useful than the usual spouting off over “I think it is wrong!” I will take a pass on that one! Thanks.

    PPPPS: Agree with everything (else) you said above!

  251. 251 Nick in USA
    August 22, 2008 at 19:45

    @ Raw

    No offense taken. I’m not thin skinned. If something is said in the heat of the moment, then I take it as it is. I’m just trying to keep things in perspective. Tomorrow, I’m sure we’ll be agreeing on a topic next week. That’s the nice thing about the blog. Something new always comes along. There is no time to hold grudges. You’re a very smart man with strong opinions, we need more people like you out there.

    @ moderators

    Feel free to give my email address to anyone. In fact, I would like it if I was able to trade email addresses with several of the regulars. I’d love to be able to ask Lubna some questions in private, where she won’t feel pressured by the crowd waiting for her answer.

  252. 252 jessnyc
    August 22, 2008 at 19:47

    Ni Nick–

    I’m holding down the blog over the weekend. I suggest you email Ros or one of the WHYS team members on Monday and ask them to give your email address to Lubna. Then, Lubna can decide whether or not to email you.

  253. 253 jessnyc
    August 22, 2008 at 19:48

    Does that work?

  254. 254 Nick in USA
    August 22, 2008 at 19:49

    That works great Jess. Thanks for the help! :]

  255. 255 jessnyc
    August 22, 2008 at 19:51

    Anytime, Nick. Any thoughts on the blank page?

  256. August 22, 2008 at 19:55

    All I ca say is turn off that Television set and put down that rediculous magazine.
    Ween yourselves off of mainstream media. The machinations of these media products are designed to enslave and mis-lead through false imagery,leading us on an endless chase to obtain some whispy illusion of perfection.
    I say this because I’m reading alot of responses that attribute the cause of body image perception to ads seen on TV and in magazines.
    There are beneficial by-products to lessening your exposure to media. Who knows? You might find yourself reading a good book, writing that novel or playing the guitar that’s been sitting in the corner for three years. Remember: no one is holding a gun to your head making you watch TV. You have the power to change!!

  257. 257 Bryan
    August 22, 2008 at 19:58

    Hailey August 22, 2008 at 7:00 pm,

    Wonderful comment. I agree 100%.

    roebert August 22, 2008 at 7:28 pm,

    Every woman is beautiful in her own way; this or that special feature, or this or that way of doing or saying things etc etc. If you spend enough time in any woman’s company you’ll find her specific beauty.

    Absolutely spot on.

    rawpoliticsjamaicastyle August 22, 2008 at 7:39 pm

    PPPS: @ Bryan,

    I am going to take a pass on that reading of what I said earlier.

    Does that mean you are going to pass by it to have another look at it or pass it by?

  258. 258 Lauren
    August 22, 2008 at 20:11

    Hello all-

    This is the Lauren that was on the show today. I guess I just wanted to clarify that when I say I’m considering liposuction, it’s not for a “quick fix”. I have made life-style changes including diet and exercise, but I’m on the “weight rollercoaster”. I lose 10 lbs, gain 10 lbs. There are still aspects of my life that I need to improve, I’ll admit that, but I’m not looking to surgery to fix my problems, it would be a starting point. I have a realistic idea of what my weight should be (between 150-160 lbs would be a weight for me) – I know I’ll never be a size 6 and I’m fine with that! I just want to be able to fit into the clothes I bought 3 months ago; I want to go shopping with my friends without feeling out of place when I can’t put my arm into the XXL top at the store.

    When you struggle with something as long as I have with little results, at some point the frustration and the struggle itself just wears you down. Surgery is not my miracle pill- it won’t make me confident overnight and I’ll still need to work to stay healthily and keep the weight off, but I need a little bit of a push here folks and it’s not something I’m taking lightly. I’m not jumping at the opportunity to have surgery- it’s an invasive procedure, but when all else seems to fail, why shouldn’t I consider it?

  259. 259 Bryan
    August 22, 2008 at 20:39

    Lauren, it’s madness. Who knows what hidden complications there might be that they might discover in years to come.

    Medical science is taking very strange paths these days. Doctors are supposed to be healers, not cause injury.

  260. 260 Jack
    August 22, 2008 at 22:20

    @ LineWalker,

    Don’t let Steve get to you. He’s on here from the time I arrive at work (8:00 am Pacific time, U.S..) making dozens of posts each day until mid-afternoon. He claims he’s a lawyer, but either his boss is a lot more understanding than mine, he has a lot of vacation time, or he’s padding his resume. Having argued with him once or twice, and given the fact that he avoids me now, I would have to say that it’s the latter.

  261. 261 rawpoliticsjamaicastyle
    August 22, 2008 at 23:41

    Just passing through very briefly.

    @ Bryan,

    No, sir. It means what appears to be the twisting of my words to suit your own ends is not a project that interests me today (or any other day for that matter!) So, I will pass. Simple

    @ Nick in the USA,

    You are too kind! But, no it was less a “heat of the battle moment”, as you say, and more what appears, from where I sit, the very emotive responses people often give without substantive arguments. So that, there is almost an implicit desire to misread everything which is said here.

    One of the other bloggers seemed bent on joining in ‘castigating’ me for reasons which are unclear to me. Indeed, he solicited your support in seeking to make a related point. That was what I meant by “being ganged up on”. But, if people refuse to hear reason then so be it! I am good with whatever!

    Insofar as my point about women being percieved as “meat”. My meaning was that, whereas this maybe perceived as a handicap, turn it into a positive (whatever that means!). Use it your advantage; that is, if you are a woman. The idea that women are perennial victims of beauty or their gender (read beauty) is not one that interests me, even in as much as I understand the gendered biases that traditionally operate in society. In fact, I don’t know that all women are percieved as “beautiful” as the terms is extremely relative and shift according to context. It cannot therefore be applied to all women.

  262. 262 rawpoliticsjamaicastyle
    August 22, 2008 at 23:46

    The argument is, largely, hypothetical as it moves from the premise of an “if”. What it does not claim to be true is that, all women are seen as “meat” or that being seen as “meat” is, in and of itself, bad. Just that, they are (for the purposes of the point I was making!). Consequently, why stress over other peoples’ ignorance and prejudices? That’s life, we work with it.

    Where there is a need to address discrimination through the law then that is a whole other question, by itself.

    Hopefully, that clears up what I said earlier as well as why I thought that that was self explanatory. It is a tiresome to say the least, to have to explain all of your meanings here.

    Like I said before, there are some people who prefer to speak from a purely emotive place, which is alright with me so long as greater care is excercised in relation to what we actually say and how we infer meanings from that.

    As you may have been aware, Steve made the point to the effect that women are seen as “meat”. My counter argument was, and what is (so) wrong with being seen as “meat”, any way? Were, I percieved as “meat” (which I hope I am not!) in the way that Steve used the reference then, I would like to feel there is room to be empowered even within those narrow confines.

    My challenge is that, I do not especially relish explanations where I think the implications are fairly clear as well as the tone used to request clarification seems peevish. So, if I misread your request, I again humbly submit an apology.

  263. 263 Bryan
    August 23, 2008 at 07:32

    rawpoliticsjamaicastyle August 22, 2008 at 11:41 pm

    It means what appears to be the twisting of my words to suit your own ends is not a project that interests me…

    You have to be joking. All I did in my comment at 7:25 pm was to present an argument based on your comment at 5:52 pm.

    I was responding to the following specific point you made, which I’ll paste in here since you are unwilling to go back and look at it:

    Frankly, I think that the vast majority of us,if given the opportunity, would not choose plastic surgery, for whatever reasons. However, there are just as many others who would for all kinds of reasons. I am unable, in a real way, to see what might be the harm in allowing them freedoms of kind.

    I tried to demonstrate the harm in cosmetic surgery, both to oneself and to others who can no longer see who you are. I’m not sure how that is twisting your words. I feel strongly about this subject but my comment was not a personal attack on you but simply an expression of the strength of feeling.

    It’s also fair to say that the negative effect on others of someone’s cosmetic surgery has not been been considered on this thread.

  264. 264 Khan
    August 23, 2008 at 10:45

    There needs to be some regulation as to who would be eligible to go for cosmetic surgery. The age need not be a factor if cosmetic surgery is required to correct ones physical distortions caused due to accidents or similar mishaps.

  265. 265 Emile Barre
    August 23, 2008 at 12:28

    Better to have surgery that improves the brain than the body. Why is there no surgery for that?

  266. 266 gaby
    August 23, 2008 at 21:17

    I haven’t read all this so bear with me. If someone else has brought this up .
    There are lots of things to say about this topic (the waste of resources, the social and psychiatric backdrop etc.) but I want to concentrate on something more psychological/philosophical (!).
    I wonder what would happen if such aesthetic transformations were entire painless, easy and involved only oneself. So, let’s say, a quick selection on the computer, a morphing program, a little time in a harmless scanner – and hey presto, one is as one would desire…. Is one quite so sure one would not want to change… let’s say something (I’m 50… there’s just a touch there…). Or boys, what about larger (smaller)…er, bits, pecs, that annoying whatever.
    And, girls, just a little more firmness…
    You see it is problematic, even for the more ‘mature’ amongst you.
    To embrace ALL one’s (natural) physical characteristics wholeheartedly is, in fact, rather inhuman. Dissatisfaction is as it were built into the mental attitude. This is, perhaps, so that ageing is less problematic and that people can find others attractive and, if you like, meaningful. Relative insecurity is natural, indeed necessary for a desire to seduce others.

  267. August 25, 2008 at 11:56

    For people who really dont need such surgeries because there is no case to support them using them,it doesnt reduce the rate of divorce cases,it doesnt stop oldest and eldest people using their walking sticks etc….

    still the GEM

  268. August 26, 2008 at 15:28

    @ Bryan,

    Actually, I am not joking at all. I am quite serious.

    I do believe that the choice – the important word here, to do or not do cosmetic surgery is simply that – a choice! Where one chooses to exercise that right it is, in my considered opinion, solely the purview of those who make that choice. It is hoped, however, that with that like any other freedom comes responsibility (and common sense) and that people would be prepared to exercise their rights accordingly.

    However, should they choose not to, I cannot see where and or how that, that is a matter for public debate to the extent that such a debate suggests, in the main, legislative procedures to prevent people from making and exercising their right to choose.

    You might imagine that, unlike you, I do not agree with that the more important issue (I am inferring from your post above) is how plastic surgery impacts others. Even inasmuch as that may be part of the reason people elect to ‘go under the knife’; that is, to the extent that people worry about what they look like (to themselves and others.

    In my humble opinion, elective plastic surgery is not even about the surgery so much as it is about people and their right to choose, as well as how they exercise such a right. It is that which I feel strongly about, which must be defended at all times whether or not we are personally objected to peoples’ choices that way.

  269. August 26, 2008 at 16:44

    Cosmetic Surgery has been around for quite some time. The present Vice-Presidential nominee for the Democratic party in the US had notable hair transplants some 20 years in the past…they look decent today although it is interesting to note they are now all gray.

  270. September 8, 2008 at 06:40

    Even if i have the money, the permission from my parents, i would never ever undergo an operation such as cosmetic surgery just to look perfect. I’m not really comfortable with the idea of having a surgical knife or whatever you call it cutting my skin — it’s a big no no, unless of course it’s really necessary.

  271. October 1, 2008 at 16:15

    Great post,

    An enjoyable read!


  272. October 7, 2008 at 20:22

    So many pressures pushing on people… it’s a very interesting social commentary. Cosmetic surgery widens the gap between man and animals.

  273. January 28, 2009 at 09:52

    There is nothing wrong about plastic surgery as long as you want it. I don’t know what to change in my body, I’m not telling I’m perfect. But I am just happy being like this. For young people whon wants to do surgery, better thing twice or a million times.

  274. February 11, 2009 at 11:07

    Cosmetic surgery is a form of body contouring with significant attendant risks and is not a weight loss method.We only get one chance at a first impression and the person who projects the best self-image makes the best impression. In today’s competitive society, people recognize the importance of self-improvement whether it is for social or professional reasons. Exercise, skin care and nutrition are important but can only do so much. Real structural change requires more. In a sense, cosmetic surgery offers a second chance – the opportunity to defy both the calendar and genetics.It helps to mould any disfigured part of the body. Cosmetic surgery aims to change your appearance by altering parts of your body that function normally but make you unhappy. If you’re dissatisfied with your appearance, you may be interested in cosmetic surgery not only to look better, but also to feel better.But i would had happily gone at least once for this if i would have a handsome amount of money.Alas!i don’t have,But it becomes dangerous too if we go through it again and again. Although, the risks or complications are very rare now a days , one has to seriously look after all probable risks and dangers of plastic surgery involved.

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