Blank Page No.20

As we head home for the weekend, we leave you in the very capable hands of Andrew in Australia and Abdi in Kenya…..over to you……

562 Responses to “Blank Page No.20”

  1. August 15, 2008 at 19:54


    Hi all,and well-come to Blank Page No.20!,I Abdi in Kenya and Andrew in Australia are you’r host and moderators for this weekend and we will keep you company over the weekend!…A very special thanks goes to Chloe for giving us this golden opportunity to Host and Moderate This weekends Blank Page No.20.

    Do you love inspirational and Motivational Songs?..Put in Ear Phones and Log on to;

    Ok,minimise the page and Let’s keep on talking a bout these topics as you sit back,relax and enjoy listening to the sweet and inspiring Video clip in my Weblog.

    Topic for Discussion No.1

    Should survivors forgive terrorists?
    It is ten years since the twin bombings of the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania.

    Ceremonies to commemorate the more than 200 people killed and injured in the attacks have taken place in Nairobi and Dar es Salaam.

    What can be done to help survivors cope better both practically and psychologically? What strategies can one adopt to help recover from such wilful acts of terror? Should the perpetrators be forgiven?

    Topic for Discussion No.2

    Is the Olympic Spirit Still alive ?
    Do you watch the Olympic games? Do you think the modern games still hold to the ideals that led to it’s creation? What do smaller countries gain from participating in the Olympic games? Is it right that the Olympic games avoids political statements and expressions?

    Topic for Discussions No.3

    Do you thing it’s possible to have WHYS Congress?Where will be the Best Venue?Which month of year should it be held?

    Any Other Topic for Discussions?.

    Vote for the most Regular and loyal listner of WHYS.

    1.Lubna in Baqdad-Iraq.
    2.Bob in Quesnland-Australia.
    3.Katherina in Ghent Belgium.

    Once again well-come and thank you very much for pouring in your comments!
    off we go………….Let’s run very first……….

  2. August 15, 2008 at 19:56

    @ My dear Friends Brett and Nelosni
    I wish to apologies to you both 1000 times for taking off you’r short comments.I hope you understand My need to introduce and well-come the guests.Many thanks.

  3. 3 nelsoni
    August 15, 2008 at 19:58

    @ Abdi, your list for most loyal and regular WHYS listener is flawed. What indices did you use to arrive at your list?

  4. August 15, 2008 at 20:03

    @ Nelsoni

    It’s just for Fun.But I know you other regular listners like you..Remember we are just having some fun.It’s a blank page and a chance for us to talk more deeper.

  5. 5 Venessa
    August 15, 2008 at 20:04

    Andrew & Abdi ~ Looking forward to some good discussions this weekend!

  6. 6 Mikhail Vladimir
    August 15, 2008 at 20:04

    Hello Abdi. Topics 1 and 2 have already being treated on WHYS. Probably you have not being around for a while. Topic 3 is somewhat ok. And the list of loyal listener … No comments. Any fresh ideas anyone?

  7. 7 Julie P
    August 15, 2008 at 20:07

    @Andrew and Abdi,

    Let’s go for 500 comments this weekend, we came close last weekend.

  8. August 15, 2008 at 20:07

    @ Mikhail

    Don’t worry,We shall keep on talking,and please be a pionner to set out an agenda for us.Thank you.

  9. August 15, 2008 at 20:09

    @ Veneessa

    I am currently as a busy as a bee as Andrew is away and comments are pouring in like drops of rain.

    @ Andrew my co-host and my co-moderator

    Where are you?..please show up within the next 1/2 hours as it’s getting late night here in kenya.

  10. 10 Venessa
    August 15, 2008 at 20:12

    Abdi ~

    I am happy to help out. I will monitor the comments too. 🙂

  11. August 15, 2008 at 20:14

    @ Juli P we hope that we will go for 500 comments’ though Sorry to say my friend Andrew has decided to let me down as as this.
    I really like WHYS regular listners with the type of mentallity that you have.

    Happy birth day…I was shocked by the way almost all WHYS listners have wished you a happy birth day.

  12. 12 Venessa
    August 15, 2008 at 20:15

    Abdi ~ BTW it’s only noon here for me so if you need to get some sleep it’s no trouble. Not all of us can be an insomniac like Jonathan.

  13. August 15, 2008 at 20:18

    @ Venessa
    Thank you very much.I will be keeping you company for the next 30 minutes.then I can go and sleep.AS I will be joining you tommorrow early in the morning Kenyan time.Exactly 8:hours from Now.

  14. 14 Venessa
    August 15, 2008 at 20:18

    Abdi ~

    My only frustration of the Olympics is the constant focus on only certain individuals. Surely everyone there is a part of an elite group and deserve to be recognized and that does not mean I want to undermine the great sucess that some are having. It just bothers me that so many people are overshadowed by the hype.

  15. 15 Julie P
    August 15, 2008 at 20:20


    I wasn’t shocked how many people wished me a happy birthday. We’re a friendly bunch of people. I don’t think Andrew let you down. Australia is 14 hours behind me in Atlanta; he could very well be catching some zzz’s (sleeping). Alas, there are enough other mods to pick up the slack inbetween though.

  16. 16 nelsoni
    August 15, 2008 at 20:21

    @ Julie P. I have an idea. I once said that the WHYS staff who would read the blank page on a monday morning has his/her work cut out and deserves a tea/water break after reading 400 plus comments. So I had an idea: when the comments reach a certain manageable number, the moderator on duty can write a new blog post like blank page number 20b and write the conversation continues here. And place a link on the original blank page. That way reading the blank pages would be easier for all. Does any one has a different thought?

  17. August 15, 2008 at 20:22

    I really agree with you.One think I like a bout the Olympics is that all the 53 african coutries are participating in china.This is a big opportunity for Africa.Inagine Zimbabwe have won 1 Gold Medal so far.

  18. 18 nelsoni
    August 15, 2008 at 20:24

    @ Abdi~ Venessa and I can help you out till you resume on Saturday morning.

  19. August 15, 2008 at 20:24

    @ Nelsoni

    I was Suprised By Dannis’s BP NO.19 which gathered over 400 comments. But I and Andrew Can also suprise him.But you see Nelsoni only WHYS staff is expected to Write a post.We as moderator’s can only Moderate.

  20. 20 Julie P
    August 15, 2008 at 20:26


    I thing that’s a great idea! They do that with the regular HYS when the forum get’s too big. As for myself, even though I brand new computer and reasonably fast internet connection loading and refreshing the page gets a little weird. If the other mods are for it, it’s a good idea.

    Second your motion! 🙂

  21. 21 Venessa
    August 15, 2008 at 20:33

    I think the last time we had the splitting the BP discussion it was nixed because it required going to multiple pages to get a full conversation. for instance if I replied to you on something you said on the previous BP it might be difficult for someone to find (that is not familiar). Perhaps it is a good idea if there is a response to what was on BPa on BPb we imbedded links back to the post….However I still haven’t figured that out.

  22. 22 Venessa
    August 15, 2008 at 20:35

    Abdi ~

    Your point that there is 53 African countries participating and there has been little coverage. It saddens me that the richest nations get so much more coverage and everyone wants to see the medal count. While I’m excited about the people in my country that have won medals I am also interested in hearing other people’s stories.

  23. 23 Colleen
    August 15, 2008 at 20:35

    i think i missed the discussion about a WHYS Congress… but if it’s people on here getting together somewhere in person that sounds awesome! how does one (i.e. me 🙂 ) get involved?

  24. August 15, 2008 at 20:39

    Hi gang ! ;-)… And to my two dearest friends Abdi in Kenya and Andrew in Australia (The AA Team) : A very good luck to both of you guys over the weekend Inshallah ! ;-)… I do have a question to all of you guys, especially to those of you guys living in the US : How, in your opinions, are ordinary Arab and Muslim citizens featured in the Western and especially American films and TV shows ?! In a fair, objective and realistic way or exactly the opposite and why ?! I’d love your answers to be illustrated with examples if you please… With my love… Yours forever, Lubna in Baghdad…

  25. 25 Colleen
    August 15, 2008 at 20:41

    @ Abdi & Venessa,

    I think Track and Feild events are the most representative of various countries so this next week will probably focus on athletes from more places… but i do agree that sometimes the hype over one or two athletes/teams takes away from the spirit of the whole event..

  26. 26 Julie P
    August 15, 2008 at 20:43


    Anyone can get involved with WHYS Congress. Where you like to meet?

  27. 27 Nick in USA
    August 15, 2008 at 20:44

    I don’t know if this is old news, but are Russian soldiers targeting journalists?


  28. August 15, 2008 at 20:45

    @jULIE P
    we all want our countries to win Gold Medals,I love to see an African Country winning more Golds


    Thanks for you’r comment.!
    @ Colleen

    how? will the hype over one or two athletes/teams takes away from the spirit of the whole event..

  29. August 15, 2008 at 20:49

    @ Vennessa
    The Olympics in Beijing is turning out to be a very exciting one for us (the Africans) Already we have won Golds.

    You Know Poverty and Corruption in Africa have really damaged Sports in Africa-Especailly here in Kenya.-Where talented Athelets are not picked to represent their respective Countries.

    But Change is in the Air and Africa will one day Unite to Fight Corruption,tribolism and Greed.

  30. 30 Colleen
    August 15, 2008 at 20:53

    @ Abdi

    well at least where i am in the US the Phelps story is dominating the olympics coverage… he is an absolutely amazing athlete, but it’s a little over-hyped for me… i’d like to hear about some other athletes from other places too even if they arent winning every metal

  31. 31 Venessa
    August 15, 2008 at 20:54

    Abdi ~

    I have no doubt that change will come if people are as positive as you. Although I think corruption and greed are intrinsic in every society but it appears to be worse in other parts of the world.

  32. August 15, 2008 at 20:56

    @ Colleen.
    I agee with you America has really dominated the field of atheltics but Give us sometime and a chance for us to “put our House in Order”

    Then Africa will Shock the world!….

    I am sure One day,we will make it!

  33. August 15, 2008 at 20:56

    @ Colleen.
    I agee with you America has really dominated the field of atheltics but Give us sometime and a chance for us to “put our House in Order”

    Then Africa will Shock the world!….

    I am sure One day,we will make it!

  34. 34 Colleen
    August 15, 2008 at 20:57

    @ Julie P

    anywhere is good for me — i love to travel!

  35. August 15, 2008 at 21:00

    @ Colleen.
    May be Julie P will wonder if WHYS Congress was to be held in Africa. will you come a long.I myself will do everything possible to attend WHYS congress within Africa,
    We will wait and See what WHYS will say about WHYS congress as all the listners from different parts of the world have been talking a bout ‘WHYS Congress’ over the last two weeks,

  36. August 15, 2008 at 21:03

    @ Nick
    thanks for joining us..even though not in the best of way’s.anyway well-come.I was just wondering why you haven’t joined us yet!

    This weekend we are really after “Current Hot items in the news” The topic of Russian soldiers targeting journalists?
    is an old one bro,

  37. 37 Venessa
    August 15, 2008 at 21:04

    Ideally I would LOVE to go to Africa for the WHYS congress. For the sake of the first one I think it would be great to have it in London where WHYS is broadcast and it is a location that more people would be able to travel to. From there we pick a place out of a hat! Of course Julie and I have already offered up our homes for the WHYS teams to broadcast from. 😉

  38. August 15, 2008 at 21:07

    @ Vennessa and Julie P

    Plaese take charge it’s almost Midnight here in kenya and feeling sleepy.I will go and Sleep and I promise to join you after 8 hour’s from Now( I don’t want to let down Chloe just as Andrew has done.I am sure Chloe is also Frustrated like I am But we Hope that Andrew will Join us soonest Possible.

    Bye,see you very soon.Keep those Comments Coming in as I go and Sleep..Kwaheri..lala salama..ha..ha..ha

  39. 39 Colleen
    August 15, 2008 at 21:10

    I would love to go to Africa as well… Having it at the BBC would be a good choice too. Maybe there could be satellite congresses also — so people in similar regions could organize something if they cant take a trip for whatever reason (distance, money, family).

  40. 40 nelsoni
    August 15, 2008 at 21:10

    @ Journalists being targeted, I think thats something we need to thrash out. We did talk about it on talking points August 14, 2008. If our beloved WHYS team members were dodging bombs and bullets, surely we will talk about it. Let’s spare a thought for the other journalists who are in frontlines.

  41. August 15, 2008 at 21:17

    @ Abdi & MIA Andrew, Welcome to the Mods’ table. My friends, Nelsoni,Julie P, Venessa, Lubna,Nick,Colleen and other critical minds, you have my respect. BP 19 was awesome. We hope we can beat it. @ less media coverage for african athletes: bigger nations owned the media. Moreover, big names make news. Next Cold War, mixed signals from Georgia/Russian conflict. What is the UN planning? I have a pharmacognosy test tommorow morning. I will be an in between post. Have a great discussion.

  42. 42 nelsoni
    August 15, 2008 at 21:18

    @ Venessa. Concerning the splitting of the Blank pages, using links should not be a problem. Just click on the time the comment you want to make a reference was made, on your browser window the link appears, copy it and paste it your comment. That should suffice until you can learn how to use HTML.

  43. 43 Julie P
    August 15, 2008 at 21:21

    I looked at one video this morning of a woman giving a report when she was shot. It looked like a serious graze on her left forearm. She kept on reporting. Here is video to an attack on Turkish reporters in Georgia.


  44. 44 Nick in USA
    August 15, 2008 at 21:22

    @ abdi

    “The topic of Russian soldiers targeting journalists?
    is an old one bro,”

    Whoops, I’m always 10 steps behind. Haha.

  45. August 15, 2008 at 21:23

    @ Nelsoni, journalists being targeted in war zones is serious. Warring parties are usually atrocious and they are afraid to be exposed. They therefore choose target journalists inorder hide their gruesome acts.

  46. 46 Julie P
    August 15, 2008 at 21:23

    @WHYS Congress Location,

    I’ll start with London and remain open for others. I need to check airfares, etc.

  47. 47 nelsoni
    August 15, 2008 at 21:26

    @ Collen. Excellent point. Or better still for those who can’t travel, can participate via Live telephone link and send pictures of where they are with big headphones and a microphone in hand. 🙂

  48. 48 Amy
    August 15, 2008 at 21:34

    Re: Journalists in harms way…..

    I have a degree in broadcast journalism and was in my last year of college when the first Gulf War was waged. There was a HUGE discussion when Saddam Hussein allowed one journalist (Peter Arnett) to stay behind in Baghdad about would we do it or not. With the exception of one person, we all said that we all would take the risk. While a lot of journalists are adrenaline junkies I feel that most want to make sure that the story (whatever that may be) is getting told. Back then, I was young and single. Now, I am married and have 2 daughters. I don’t think I would make the same choice today because of the risks but part of me still feels that urge to make sure that the story gets out. The idea that journalists are being targeted scares me, but doesn’t surprise me. I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that some journalists here in the US have been “targets” as well.

  49. 49 Amy
    August 15, 2008 at 21:44

    Re: Celebrating other countries triumphs at the Olympics:



    We have made a point to watch some of the alternate coverage that is available to us here in the US (CNBC, USA Network) to see some other sports and see other countries in action. Both of my girls seem very interested in women’s water polo now as well as archery. The diving has also gone over very big with the little one. I try to make watching the Olympics a sort of geography lesson…… can we find that country on the map.

  50. 50 nelsoni
    August 15, 2008 at 21:48

    @ WHYS congress. For it to actually be a congress, there has to be a somewhat representative number of delegates from around the world. It would not be quite a congress anymore if only people from europe or the US attended. There are so many other little issues to be ironed out. Like would there be assistance for those who need a visa to come to the uk(assuming it’s held in the uk), it’s still a possibility but the location is going to be very key to increasing attendance. I say this just is passing for obvious reasons, it would be far more easier for delegates to travel to Africa than the other way round. All the same, let keeping talking about it until it becomes a reality.

  51. 51 Venessa
    August 15, 2008 at 21:51

    Hi Sheikh ~

    Glad to see you again for this weekend’s discussion!

    Moderators ~ make sure to watch the spam folder. Sheikh is still on someone’s bad list 😉 and his comments are going ending up in there again….

  52. 52 Venessa
    August 15, 2008 at 21:52

    nelsoni ~

    Where ever it may be I will make every effort to go!

  53. 53 Amy
    August 15, 2008 at 21:55


    I, too, will make every effort to make it to the congress if it ever comes to pass. It would be great to make it an annual (or bi-annual) event with the venue moving around the world.

  54. 54 Julie P
    August 15, 2008 at 21:59


    I thought it would be a good idea to WHYS Congress move around the globe. I have even thought inviting all of us at one point Bob’s house in Queensland one year.

  55. 55 Colleen
    August 15, 2008 at 22:09

    Hi Lubna,

    As far as portrayal of Islam in the US, in my opinion, there are mostly negative stereotypes shown in the media. Movies focusing on Islamic culture are almost always centered around terrorism. However I have seen shows and some documentaries that attempt to divert the focus away from extremists but these are not as prevalent.

    Question for you — I am writing a paper as we speak about Al Manar, Hezbollah’s television network. Because it is banned in the US I am not able to see it directly for myself. Have you or anyone else on here ever seen this network? If so, what are your opinions?

  56. 56 nelsoni
    August 15, 2008 at 22:13

    @ Sheikh, the moderators can guarantee you that not even the spam filter can prevent you from having your say. Like Venessa asked last week. Who did you irritate at WHYS?

  57. 57 nelsoni
    August 15, 2008 at 22:15

    @ Amy, an annual event would be more like it.

  58. 58 Jamily5
    August 15, 2008 at 22:19

    when you get back, I would love to read The Kenyan and Zimbabwean victories.
    I will try Googling it.
    but, if you have the links, post them please.
    WHYS congress:
    I love to travel and would enjoy going to many countries: London included.
    Certainly, we want those from Bagdad, Iran, Kenya, Pakistan, India, Nigeria and many other countries to join us.
    And, Yes, I realize that Bagdad is not a country, yet I included it in a list of countries.
    But, you get my point.
    I will try to come, no matter where it is.

  59. August 15, 2008 at 22:24

    Hi again gang ! ;-)… Is anyone of our Precious Western and especially American friends interested in answering my question about the way ordinary Arab and Muslim citizens are portrayed in Western and particularly American films and TV shows ?! As for the WHYS congress, as much as I do feel pretty much excited about the whole idea, as much as I am really so grateful for all of you guys for reminding me, yet again within a very short period of time, that I do live in a place which I can never get out of and at the same time I do not dare at all to invite anyone into !!! So thanks a million for that guys ! ;-)… With my love… Yours forever, Lubna…

  60. 60 nelsoni
    August 15, 2008 at 22:25

    @ Jamily5. Africa’s First Gold medal came from Long distance running on friday. The rest have being silver mainly from Zimbabwean swimmer, Kirsten Conventry.

  61. 61 Jamily5
    August 15, 2008 at 22:44

    I looked for Kenya, but could not find them among the medals.
    But, I did see Kirsty Coventry getting three silvers for Zimbabwe.

  62. August 15, 2008 at 22:46

    @ i guess my posts love the spam folder. I am hopeful that you guys will them out of there. I am hoping to watch brazil take on cameroon in football tomorrow. When it comes to football, i am a brazilian die hard.

  63. 63 Colleen
    August 15, 2008 at 22:52

    @ Lubna,

    I responded and also added a question for you! 🙂

  64. August 15, 2008 at 22:59

    @ Lubna, i am muslim but are strongly frown on some of our brethren attitude; using islam as a core of their extremism. It is the fanaticism of these extremists that has given a negative impression of islam in the west. Commiting suicides, killing innocents and preaching hate message are unislamic.

  65. 65 Jamily5
    August 15, 2008 at 23:00

    first, I finally noticed that I was spelling your precious city incorrectly.
    It is “Baghdad.”
    I would like to blame it, firmly and squarely on the internet. (smile smile)
    Remember, I hear what is on the screen and do not see the letters.
    It is cumbersome to make my screeneader go “letter by letter.”
    I can, but it makes reading impossible.
    But, while searching, I did notice this fact and want to correct it.

    Lubna, there aren’t that many films about iraqis — unless you count war films.
    I don’t count those.
    But, I will say that media usually portrays muslims and Iraqis quite stereotypically.
    Middle-eastern Muslim women are usually portrayed as submissive and docile.
    They are not frivolace or materialistic. they are hard workers. They bear and raise children, after their arranged marriages, they do the housework, they rarely go out without a male, and above all: they are obedient to their males (whether that be father, brother, husband or son).
    Middle-eastern women are rarely seen as happy.
    Maybe that is because of the veils.
    I think that some media did show Iraqi women uulating (vocally celebrating) something, but rarely are these women shown as expressive.
    Middle Eastern muslim women are notseen as educated. Or, if they are educated, the career stops when marriage begins.
    But, honestly, I don’t know of many films that depict Middle-eastern muslim women.
    There was that whole:
    “Not without my daughter,”
    “Inside the Kingdom: the story of Carmen Bin Laden,”
    kind of film.
    But, in these circumstances, it is western women who marry iraqi (or middle eastern man) and the Iraqi women are not main characters.
    And, these western women are usually victims of their husbands and culture shock.

    But, honestly, Americans are not wanting to make many films aboutIraq or Islam unless it is in the context of war.

  66. 66 Dennis
    August 15, 2008 at 23:02

    @ Brett:

    No problem for doing that!!!!

    @ my own record:

    I would love to break it!!!!!


  67. 67 Dennis
    August 15, 2008 at 23:03

    @ Andrew and Abdi:

    Welcome to the table…..

    I am currently, having a slight bit of a cold….this weekend…


  68. 68 nelsoni
    August 15, 2008 at 23:10

    @ Jamily5. After reading your post on the ” has the internet made us stupid”, I must say I am deeply inspired by you. You have a visual challenge but you did not allow it to put you down but instead you have used technology to your advantage and you blog and make intelligent posts just like the rest of us who are fully sighted, that I must say is highly commendable. I wish other people worldwide could draw inspiration from your inner strength.

  69. 69 Jamily5
    August 15, 2008 at 23:23

    I just read the Blake/Gonzalez tennis rift.

  70. August 15, 2008 at 23:26

    My dearest Jamily : Hi… Baghdad is the whole world to me… Thanks alot for your very lovely and extraordinarily kind words, as always, and lots and lots of love and blessings to you from Baghdad ! ;-)…
    Ah my dearest Colleen : Hi… Wow, a very interesting question ! ;-)… You know, I am a practicing Muslim Shiite, so you can expect my answer to be rather biased in one way or another, but I’ll try to be as much objective as I can : I do watch Al Manar Satellite channel regularly… They do follow a firm anti-Israel approach when it comes to political programmes, talk shows, and news programmes… They do promote the project of the ”armed legitimate resistance against the Israeli occupation of the Arab lands”.. But that’s not the reason why I watch it regularly, they do follow a very strong religious Islamic Shiite approach as well… Their religious programmes and theological preachings, especially those presented by Sayed Hassan Nasrallah are just amazing and very heart-touching… I often cry my eyes out while watching them… The style of Sayed Hassan Nasrallah in his religious preachings is very charismatic and super emotional… He talks in ordinary Lebanese accent and his words are very simple and quite easy for anyone to understand but at the same time they do touch very sensitive nerves and raise religious emotions to extremely high levels… I do hope that you’d find some sort of objectivity in my account Colleen… But I must tell you that when it comes to political programmes, talk shows, and news programmes, then Al Manar Satellite Channel to me is exactly the Arabic version of Fox News, but with a religious Islamic Shiite style ! ;-),,, With my love… Yours forever, Lubna…

  71. 71 nelsoni
    August 15, 2008 at 23:26

    @ this point. It seems I am the last moderator standing ~

  72. 72 Amy
    August 15, 2008 at 23:33


    I’m still here for a little while longer but will return – so to sleep!!! 🙂


  73. 73 Venessa
    August 15, 2008 at 23:37

    I’m here too! I’ve just been working on a court report so haven’t been posting.

  74. 74 Venessa
    August 15, 2008 at 23:38

    but I have been monitoring…

  75. August 15, 2008 at 23:46

    Hi my dearest Jamily… I assume from your name that you’re a female right ?! ;-)… I do second firmly what our beloved Nelsoni has just said about you… In front of human beings like you, I do feel that I am too small… May God always bless you and all of your loved ones, Amen ! ;-)…
    And my dearest Sheikh : Al Salaam Aleikum… I couldn’t agree with you more… With my love… Yours forever, Lubna in Baghdad…

  76. 76 Colleen
    August 15, 2008 at 23:50

    @ Lubna,

    wow thank you! i got a french documentary about Al Manar and the clips it showed were very extreme in my opinion…. but knowing that the makers of the documentary were probably not of the same views as Hez., i figured there must be other perspectives out there… and like i said i am not able to see for myself. In the US, Al Manar itself is on the list of terrorist entities. I found that very interesting…

  77. 77 Bryan
    August 15, 2008 at 23:53

    Lubna August 15, 2008 at 8:39 pm,

    Portrayal of Muslims in the Western media? Our very own BBC has been making strenuous efforts to show Muslims in the best possible light for a number of years. This includes such plot designs as troubled youths from Christian families finding solace and comfort in converting to Islam. The BBC show ‘Bonekickers’ features a fundamentalist Christian who hacks off the head of a Muslim, believe it or not, with Muslims portrayed as the heroes. This is a crude and unsubtle attempt at propaganda and turning reality upside down. I wonder if those who wrote the script really imagine that we are now going to be looking over our shoulders in fear whenever we walk past a church.

    The BBC received a number of complaints about the show. Here’s the response, complete with the BBC’s obligatory missing of the point, something they appear to be trained to do at the BBC Complaints dept:


    “The drama seeks to highlight the consequences of a misguided fundamentalist taking his beliefs to violent extremes.”

    Fine, except when did anyone last hear of a fundamentalist Christian head hacker? Drama also has to be realistic. This show is simply an anti-Christian and pro-Muslim fantasy. I’m sure it would go down well in countries like Pakistan.

    I think I’ll send the BBC a script for a drama set in the Middle East with Jews portrayed as the good guys and Muslims as the bad guys. They’ll produce it if it’s good enough, right?

  78. 78 Venessa
    August 15, 2008 at 23:55

    Lubna ~

    I agree with Jamily on depictions of Middle Eastern Muslim women. What I do see I have a tendency to ignore. I like to form my own opinions; not what someone shoves down my throat. My last long term relationship before I married my husband was with an Albanian man that was raised Muslim and moved to the states when he was around 8 years old. Although he was not a practicing muslim his family was. They were wonderful people and I enjoyed their company very much. The reason for our break up was because of our differing values around starting a family. I was not sure if I wanted children and it was a must for him.

  79. 79 Jamily5
    August 15, 2008 at 23:58

    But, just a normal woman.
    It might take me a bit longer, but I enjoy reading and considering all of the points.
    There are many out there more intelligent and more aware than I am and you guys keep me up-to-date on everything. I don’t watch/listen to TV personal choice) and do try to read news, but I like the interaction so much more.
    I have never had sight, so don’t know what it is to do things with sight.
    So, it feels normal to me.
    Yes, some websites are not very accessible and that bothers me because I am not able to get the same benefit as those who can see the page and point&click. Also, sometimes it takes me longer to navigate to a particular part of the web page.
    But, we all have our challenges.

  80. 80 Colleen
    August 16, 2008 at 00:01

    @ Lubna,

    Another question: what is your opinion of children watching Al Manar? Do you think they are influenced strongly by it — i.e. inspired for martyrdom at very young ages, anit-Jewish sentiment?

  81. 81 Julie P
    August 16, 2008 at 00:05

    MySpace deleted 146 profiles of 112 registered sex offenders in Nebraska. I say good for them!


  82. 82 Julie P
    August 16, 2008 at 00:10

    Circle K convenience stores are now accepting pesos at some of their locations.


  83. 83 Venessa
    August 16, 2008 at 00:12

    President George W Bush has accused Russia of “bullying and intimidation.”

    The pot calling the kettle black! Can’t wait for January…..

  84. 84 Bryan
    August 16, 2008 at 00:24

    Colleen August 16, 2008 at 12:01 am

    Dunno about al Manar re children but I do know that the indoctrination of very young children in anti-Israel and anti-West hatred is rife in fundamentalist Islam.

    Here’s the ‘Hamas mouse’, based on Mickey Mouse:

    “You and I are laying the foundation for a world led by Islamists,” the cartoon character named Farfour squeaked on a recent episode of the show, entitled “Tomorrow’s Pioneers.”

    “We will return the Islamic community to its former greatness, and liberate Jerusalem, God willing, liberate Iraq, God willing, and liberate all the countries of the Muslims invaded by the murderers.”

    Children call in to the show, many singing Hamas anthems about fighting Israel.

    Disney declined comment on “Tomorrow’s Pioneers,” but a daughter of the U.S. entertainment firm’s founder cried foul.

    “The world loves children and this [show] is just going against the grain of humanity,” Diane Disney Miller told the New York Daily News.

    “What we’re dealing with here is pure evil and you can’t ignore that.”

    Mustafa Barghouti, Palestinian information minister at the time, pulled the show – no doubt because he could see how damaging it was for the Palestinian image among the Palestinian-supporting liberal left elite of the West.

  85. 85 Bryan
    August 16, 2008 at 00:39

    Venessa August 16, 2008 at 12:12 am

    President George W Bush has accused Russia of “bullying and intimidation.”

    The pot calling the kettle black! Can’t wait for January…..

    Yes I suppose it is a pot and kettle situation, but if i had a choice between bullies, I would much rather be bullied by democratic America than Russia, which still retains powerful influences from the horrific communist past of the Soviet Union. How many millions did Stalin send to their deaths or imprison in subhuman conditions. And people compare Gitmo to the Gulag? They obviously never read Solzhenitsyn.

    I’ll take my chances with George Bush, thanks.

  86. 86 Dennis
    August 16, 2008 at 00:47

    Here is my vote, since i am unable to listen
    to WHYS:
    everyone who posts on the blogs, signs up to
    Ros’s email and everyone who is involved in the
    running of the show.!!!!

    Dennis 🙂

  87. 87 Venessa
    August 16, 2008 at 01:04

    Bryan ~

    I can’t argue with you there but it still bothers me that he’s a hypocrite.

  88. 88 Dennis
    August 16, 2008 at 01:27

    @ everyone,

    i am always around to be here!


  89. 89 Jamily5
    August 16, 2008 at 01:38

    Concerning Circle-k,
    It does not bother me in the least, but I know many Americans who would be offended because, just like the language: they believe that everything should be American and English.
    Accepting pesos, to them,is like translating instructions and road signs into Spanish.

  90. 90 Julie P
    August 16, 2008 at 01:48


    I grew up in southern Wisconsin. When I went to visit relatives in the very northern part of the state it was not unusual to see Canadian currency circulating there. It was normal. Personally, I don’t see a huge problem with the pesos being used in border areas either. I did mention it just to see how others felt.

  91. 91 Venessa
    August 16, 2008 at 01:52

    Julie ~

    It doesn’t bother me either. I like it; it makes it easier to get rid of left over foreign currency.

  92. 92 Dennis
    August 16, 2008 at 02:02

    @ business that takes the peso, personally it doesn’t bother….

    as anyone who lives in the united states knows that most groceries stores take food stamps!

    @ Myspace: that is good, they are deleted profiles!

    @ Sheikh: problems with his comments ending up at the spam folders….it is sad! i think that all of the moderators, should keep an eye out for any of his messages.


  93. 93 Shirley
    August 16, 2008 at 02:07

    If Hiam Chipman checks in on us over the week-end, there is something that I am curious about: Hiam, are you a member of or otherwise affiliated with the KKK or a related group? If being a member of a white supremecist group might get one in legal trouble, just forget that I asked. I became curious about it, though, because of how you responded to the question of America and racial minorities. By the way, if you are indeed a member of a white supremecist group, there is something else that I am interested in. Is it possible to find out who were members of the KKK in times past? I’ve become curious about the group’s history in the North.

    Like Venessa, I am disappointed that certain athletes from certain countries receive most of the media attention. I have checked the official Olympics website a few times already to see how some athletes have been performing. What comes through the wires on Yahoo News is helpful to understand how things are progressing, as well. It also seems that certain sports are superstar sports while others are not covered at all unless something extraordinary happens such as doping charges. If we had at least highlights broadcast to us from evenss such as shooting or the equestrian competitions, it might seem a bit more well-rounded.

  94. 94 Vijay Srao in Chattarnagar India
    August 16, 2008 at 02:12

    Re a WHYS convention/congress
    It would have to be in a third world or Eastern Europe country,or maybe Malaysia,Thailand , because the African and Asian listeners wouldn’t get a visa for any North American or western European country.
    It would also be expensive and ungreen.
    WHYS already travels around the world doing their shows ,maybe listeners should turn up when it is near them.
    Why can’t you listen to the show?

  95. 95 Shirley
    August 16, 2008 at 02:27

    Media portrayal of Arabs/Muslims
    Salam, Lubna. I have heard that a Palestinian-American actor was solicited for a part on CSI Miami but rejected it when he learned that he would be portraying a terrorist. Some day when I become curious enough about it, I might Google it up to see the particulars of the situation. I have noticed a rather well-rounded portrayal of Arabs and Muslims on NCIS. Both CSI Miami and NCIS are regular series on CBS. One thing that I have noticed of the portrayal of Muslim women is that the headscarf is not always tied appropriately to the level of practise of the character being represented. An example is an episode from CSI. This would be the CSI that takes place in Las Vegas, not CSI Miami. The episode was based on Baby Grace who was found near Houston, Texas. A Muslim couple was brought in to see whether the child was their little girl who had gone missing. The Muslim couple were portrayed as practising Muslim, but the woman’s headscarf was not secured tightly enough to her head to prevent the hair on the top of her head, etc. from showing. I am certain that the mistake has been made of portraying more liberal Muslim women in tighter-fitting scarves and longer outer robes, but nothing specific comes to mind right now. One thing that annoys me about the general portrayal of Muslims in news media and documentaries is that as soon as were are mentioned or shown on screen, the adhan is broadcast in the background. The association is overdone and quickly becoming old. A very interesting recent development in this topic might be National Geographic’s special on the Qur’an. Shia Muslims have been in something of an uproar over what they feel is unfair coverage of our sect. I don’t knowyet. I have not seen the show.

    If I can find links explaining things like the documentary or the episodes that I mentioned, I will post them up. I am writing this while not connected to the internet.

  96. 96 Shirley
    August 16, 2008 at 02:48

    Al Manar
    Colleen, I loved that network. They had a half-hour newscast in English early in the morning and another one in French in the afternoon, US times. I got news from the Arab world that simoky was not covered anywhere else. As my Arabic improved, I began to get more and more out of the regular shows put on by mid-level Shia Islamic scholars and really enjoyed even what I could not understand. I would ask those around me to help follow the topics at hand. There was also Qur’anic recitation, which is such a blessing whenever I have trouble falling asleep. They had PSAs aimed at appealing to a person’s emotions regarding the issue of Palestine. From what little I was able to understand, I did not feel that any of the shows or PSAs were encouraging anyone towards acts of violence. I do miss the scholarly shows. As a Hizbullah production, Al Manar stuck to traditional Shia Islamic scholarship – even more so than Al `Alam, I feel. Al `Alam also feels as if it is aimed at a young audience. It’s great that young religious people have some media access to which they can relate. I just didn’t get too much from the youth shows.

  97. 97 Jamily5
    August 16, 2008 at 02:52

    Assimilation & integration
    I have just finished reading the 200 or so comments concerning the possible change in America if whites are the minority.
    I see that shirley has also read some of those comments because she had questions for Hayam, who definitely expressed his views on that blog.
    On that blog,
    Bryan wrote:
    “Learn the language,
    learn the culture and learn the customs AND put them into daily practice.”

    So, are ppl mostly up in arms because immigrants have a dificult time learning English or don’t want to learn English?
    What do most people mean by “assimilation?”
    I know the definition — sociology beat it into me.
    But, the active definition in real tangible terms might be worth discussing.
    The one culture that I can think of that has assimilated is the native Americans. They lost their religion, their language, their family structures and eventually their identity. Yes, ppl can say that they are “native American — or part native American.” But, this identity only factors into their life when it is convenient for them.
    If I was from Mexico and saw what happened to the native American, I wouldn’t want to assimilate, either.
    Maybe we should start by naming “American values.”
    What do we consider as “american?”
    And then, what exactly do we consider as actions of “non-assimilation?”
    And, if you see an Asian, hispanic person or an African-American, do you feel comfortable just referring to them as “american?”
    Many times, the minority status comes before the person.
    I have an Asian friend.
    I know a Mexican lady.
    There is this blind woman…”

  98. 98 Jamily5
    August 16, 2008 at 02:55

    In that same blog,
    Angel wrote:
    What concerns me is the backward-thinking trends promoted by many latino and indian
    immigrants. They don’t want equal rights for all; they want more rights than others.
    They do not want to become Americans.

    What actually does “becoming American,” involve?

  99. 99 Jamily5
    August 16, 2008 at 02:57

    In that same blog:
    Abel wrote:
    The concept of ‘whiteness’ has changed several times as European immigrants assimilated
    into the fabric of our culture. The inclusion of these immigrants into the elite
    ‘white’ classification was not immediate or simple in any way. Similarly, America
    as we know it will change as the demographic changes.

    Yes, Abel makes a good point, but, Europeans were accepted far before Africans: no matter when members of either of these two groups arrived.

  100. 100 Shirley
    August 16, 2008 at 03:01

    yaa Lubna hayati, assalamu `alaykum wa rahmatullah
    [that all was a greeting]
    Please, sister, I hate that spelling “Shiite” – I mean, just take out some of the letters and what word do you have?? Our Sunni brothers and sisters don’t have to deal with being called “Sunnite” like some academic project that never leaves the laboratory; and I do’t think that we should accept such a spelling as “Shiite” that has been used by non-Muslim academia in a way that I feel objectifies us and removes the humanity from us.

    Now please tell me whether you can buy ginger (the spice), and whether it is available to you as a powdered spice, or as the root that was dug from the ground, or whether you might even be able to buy ginger pills from a pharmacy. And what was it that Pangolin was recommending? It was completely foreign to me, but I would trust his recommendation. Please do reply about the ginger, habibti.

  101. 101 Jamily5
    August 16, 2008 at 03:05

    Just thinking,
    Many say that one USA value is a positive and fervent work ethic.
    We must be determined and not allow anything to permanently hinder us from our achievements.
    So, a Hispanic that comes to the USA and does not possess this quality is “not embracing American values?”
    If so,
    what do we tell the white or black American that also does not embrace this value?
    Do we chastize them for not being “american enough?”

  102. 102 Jamily5
    August 16, 2008 at 03:11

    You know, shirley, I had always wondered about that.
    Anytime I read books by Muslims, they said “shia,” so I began using that language, as well.
    But, I wondered where the media and other “experts,” got the “ite.”
    At first, I thoght that “shiite” must be a smaller sect of “shia.”
    (smile — blush — dumb face).

    ARe you asking if “lubna,” in particular can find Ginger?
    Many health food stores sell Ginger root. The powder can be bought in most grocery stores.

  103. 103 Dennis
    August 16, 2008 at 03:15

    @ Vijay:

    Regarding, why i am not able to listen the show,
    is because: the show is on when in the summer i had
    class and when i return to college at the end of the month,
    i will have some time to listen.

  104. 104 Shirley
    August 16, 2008 at 03:26

    Immigration: American Culture Defined
    It’s strange. I am a white American whose family has been in the Sates for as many as six generations on one side. Whoever of my family are not evangelical Christians such as Baptists are Methodists or Catholics. My first language was English. I didn’t become fluent in another language until after I graduated high school. But when the question of what is American culture is posed, I don’t feel qualified to answer. I guess that I feel as if I am in something of a limbo. When the call is made for immigrants to assimilate into American culture, what kinds of changes are being proposed? If all immigrants were to adopt those proposed changes, how would affect life in the U.S.? What would change?

  105. 105 Shirley
    August 16, 2008 at 03:40

    Hello, Jamily
    If you have ever mentioned wahat part of the world you are from, then I have forgot. Where are you from? I am able to get ginger for myself. I am hoping that Lubna can find some in Baghdad so that she can start to use it.

    Jamily, I am a visual learner. There are times that I feel as if I could read a passage from a book and rememebr exactly what it said by virtue of how the letters looked on the page. I don’t have pictographic memory, though, because this does not always work for me. What is your best learning style? Has the fact that you are blind affected your ability to keep up with the material studied in class? Do you need special equipment? If you do need special equipment, have you ever been in an edcuational setting where the school administration was not able to keep up with your needs? I apologise if my questions seem clumsy.

  106. 106 Bob in Queensland
    August 16, 2008 at 03:40

    Hiya Andy and Abdi! Have fun this weekend. It worked really well a while back when Abelilah and I shared a BP..our time zones and sleep habits were so far apart that we were on almost all the time!

    @ Julie P Speaking of time, Aus (well the east coast anyway) is actually 14 hours ahead of Atlanta, not behind. Put another way, we’re 10 hours behind but a day ahead! (Isn’t the International Date Line fun!) As for the WHYS congress here, you’s all be welcome. Heck, Mark’s budget might even like it. I come fully equipped with a 48 channel digital sound board and a home studio to broadcast from!

  107. 107 Bob in Queensland
    August 16, 2008 at 03:43

    Re: Bullying–Bush vs. Russia

    It’s never nice to be bullied and I suspect the perception of which is worse probably depends on whether your the victim or one of the group of jeering witnesses that inevitably surround bullies.

    Personally, I wouldn’t want to defend some of the actions of either side.

  108. 108 Jamily5
    August 16, 2008 at 03:52

    First, I am in Indiana, USA.
    I just thought that you might be looking for ginger, as well.

  109. 109 Venessa
    August 16, 2008 at 03:53

    Bob ~ you are always the voice of good reasoning. You are hard to argue with! 😉

    On that note – PARTY @ BOB’S PLACE for WHYS CONGRESS! Wahoo!!!

  110. 110 Bob in Queensland
    August 16, 2008 at 03:57

    Re: Attacks on Press in Georgia

    It’s interesting to note that, besides the number of attacks on journalists, this war is also notable for the amount of disinformation being put out by the Russian Foreign Ministry (“We’ve finished our action and are withdrawing to our original positions.”) The press on the ground are quite effectively catching Russia in these lies.

    Far be it from me to actually propose a causal link between the dis-information and the attacks, but….

  111. 111 Amy
    August 16, 2008 at 03:58


    I am so there!!! We could coordinate a visit to the Gold Coast. I remember the beaches there being beautiful. May would be a perfect time since it is the end of summer/early fall there and shouldn’t be too crowded. Just let us know what to bring 🙂

  112. 112 Jamily5
    August 16, 2008 at 04:08

    “What is your best learning style?”
    Enteractive. I am an audio learner and still enjoy braille.
    But, the best way I learn is by doing.
    I was trying to learn Urdu a while back and the best way to learn is to speak and speak.
    I can speak just a few sentences in French, but would not be able to write it.
    I try and keep learning, though I am out of college.
    And, maybe many don’t learn English as quickly as we, (Americans) would like because they are shy about innteracting with Americans who might look at them strangely for not speaking English with the ease that comes from prlonged integration.

  113. 113 Julie P
    August 16, 2008 at 04:10


    I knew what it meant concerning time. I know you’re ahead of me.

    We’ll all be at your place tomorrow! (8)

  114. 114 Shirley
    August 16, 2008 at 04:13

    Al Manar
    A link to a news story about Al Manar and Indonesia: http://www.presstv.com/detail.aspx?id=66601&sectionid=351020203 “Indonesia snubs US over Hezbollah TV”

    I think that presstv is a liberal media outlet, but I am not sure.

  115. 115 Jamily5
    August 16, 2008 at 04:15

    “Has the fact that you are blind affected
    your ability to keep up with the material studied in class?”
    Yes, sometimes. Especially when profs do lots with powerpoint and/or the old blackboard.
    “Do you need special equipment?
    If you do need special equipment, have you ever been in an educational setting where
    the school administration was not able to keep up with your needs?”
    Yes and yes!
    sometimes I can’t take notes as quickly as a sightedperson.
    I got a cassette player.
    this made it slower for me because I woud have to go home and listen to the lecture, again.
    Computers need to have my software installed so that the speech output can read what is on the screen.
    Research is made easier by the internet.
    But, I remember having to have an asstant help me with interlibrary loans and then, thee is the “reading.”
    When I can’t find the entire text on cassette, CD or electronically, I would have to get a reader.
    Note: not many college texts come in braille.
    there is a myriad of reasons and if I put them, my post would be way to long.The most common is that braille is not very compact and many people don’t learn braille because they go blind later in life.Sometimes my readers failed me.
    I tried organizing study groups via the internet so that I could help others remember what I knew and study those things that my reader did not read.
    College students would read for minimum wage.
    I had a procter for some tests and sometimes would go to a certain computer lab to take my tests on the computer. som professors would email me the test and I would return it to them.
    Smaller universities and smaller school districts have a difficult time meeting the challenges of blind people.
    I had some profs who would work with me to find ways for me to take the tests and understand the materials. My logics prof in practical logic made me tactile graphics. My physics prof also tried to do this. It helped! And, I loved logic and was quite good at it. I would help my fellow students and we actually would show up 1hr before class to study before the class. She liked that we were so enthusiastic. and, some did not want to deal with me. I got taken off of my public speaking assignment for “no eye contact.” I thought that this was stupid, but it barely effected my grade: in the end. I went to a small university where I was the only blind person and then, a larger university in indianapolis.
    I live in a small town about an hour from Indianapolis and transportation complicated my situation.

    sorry so long.
    Oh, I don’t mind the questions!
    Ask away.

  116. 116 Shirley
    August 16, 2008 at 04:26

    Jamily, how well can you speak Urdu? It is a language that I am also interested in learning. Did you have any Braille texts to use while learning it? Have you been able to find anyone to practise speaking Urdu with? And just how many languages do you speak?

  117. August 16, 2008 at 04:28

    Hi all, another weekend is upon us. I see that there are a lot of early risers about. I’ll just take a few moments to see what’s been all the rage and get settled in.

  118. August 16, 2008 at 04:31

    And a big hello to Abdi in Kenya. Hopefully we have all the time zones covered this weekend. Blank Page No. 20 already, time sure does fly, almost 6 months worth.

  119. 119 Shirley
    August 16, 2008 at 04:31

    I wish that I could read Braille. I wouldn’t have to worry about getting up to turn the light off just because I wanted to read before sleeping. But I have no idea if languages like Arabic and Urdu even have Braille systems.

    You said that sometimes your readers failed you. In what way did they fail you?

  120. 120 Jamily5
    August 16, 2008 at 04:44

    “Speak” is probably the wrong word.
    First, I went to
    I would look up verbs, nouns and adjectives.
    I do have brother&sister friends from Pakistan.
    they actually live in Wisconsin and are going to college here for a computer Science degree.
    they are also blind.
    They help me sometimes.
    They help me understand the structure and rules of Urdu grammar. There are certain sounds in Urdu (and Arabic) that are difficult for the English tongue.
    I write Urdu on how it sounds. Afterall, the regular keyboard can’t do Urdu script, anyway. And, even if it could, my screenreader would not recognize the letters.
    So, if I wanted to write:
    “asalam u laikum,”
    I might write:
    The “aa” is the short sound like we find in “shot” or “toss.”
    I had to give up my French because I could not find anyone to speak it with.
    I started Pimsler’s French lessons, but still have them and no one to speak with.
    I need that kind of interaction.
    The same was with the Spanish. I know quite a bit of Spanish, but if I don’t speak it on a regular basis, it gets rusty… … quite rusty.
    I have always enjoyed languages and cultures.
    My friends from Pakistan are also muslim and when they visited me, I found a mosque — which was 90minutes away. That happens when you live in a small town. I found it quite interesting and “yes,” the prayers were in Arabic, but the Friday message in English. If some of the more “islam bashing” whysers were emotionally close to muslims, I think that their views would change.

    We could discuss Urdu offlist, but I don’t know how to give you my email without giving it to the whole WHYS community.(smile)

  121. 121 Jamily5
    August 16, 2008 at 04:50

    Many braille teachers who are sighted read braille with their eyes.
    when I taught my sister and later my children braille, they learned to read it with their eyes instead of their fingers.

    Yes, Urdu does have its own braille system.
    But, there are not that many texts that are translated into braille.
    My friends hope to start a library for the blind in Pakistan and increase the braille Urdu texts.
    I am not sure if it is the same for Arabic braille.

    My readers failed me by:
    1. not getting my texts read by the time that I needed them
    2. not describing the figures and graphics that were on the page
    3. not reading page numbers so that I could cite appropriately
    But, mostly, it was 1. Sometimes, I was lucky if they got my reading to me the day of the lecture.
    Then, sometimes, they failed to check the cassette batteries, etc. So, I would get a plank or inaudible cassette.

  122. 122 Jamily5
    August 16, 2008 at 04:55

    @Shirley and all,
    I will check in later,
    I am five hours behind WHYS and must get some sleep, but will check back in 5-7 hours.

  123. 123 Amy
    August 16, 2008 at 05:03

    Shirley and Jamily5,

    With your permission, as a moderator, I can email you both with each other’s email addresses so you can continue your conversation……


    P.S. Any of the moderators can do this too, so we all should wait for the okay from both of you before one of us does this.

  124. August 16, 2008 at 05:05

    Good Morning From Kenya
    Congragulations to all ..We are runing Very First already Over 125 Comments in a satarday Morning! Well as Julie P has suggestes we are going for Over 500 comments!.thank you
    I am back from Sleep.And Let me go through What you Guys have been talking a bout!

  125. 125 Venessa
    August 16, 2008 at 05:07

    Abdi ~

    8 hours went by fast! Welcome back.

  126. August 16, 2008 at 05:10

    Hello Abdi. That was a quick sleep indeed seems you were only here a few moments ago!

  127. August 16, 2008 at 05:10

    @ Andrew
    A bi relief to see that you have joined us.
    @ Vennesa
    Thank you Very Much.I am now back and fully moderating

  128. August 16, 2008 at 05:12


    My hours here are odd. Often I can be up until 5am and as you can expect wake up later in the day when most are well into their lunch!

  129. August 16, 2008 at 05:18

    @ Jamily5 on Kenyan’s Winning Medal-Though we haven’t any Gold Yet-our fellow african countries Like Zimbbawe and Ethiopia are doing us proud!.-But look out for Kenya.
    @ Nick in USA -on Russian soldiers harassasing Journalist-You are not behind Bro-It’s part of life.but please Be moving with the currrent affairs.ha
    @ Sheikh Kafumba-on “Next Cold War, mixed signals from Georgia/Russian conflict. What is the UN planning? I have a pharmacognosy test tommorow morning. I will be an in between post. Have a great discussion.”
    best of luck in you’r exams..but please join us soon.
    @ Vennesa-on Corruption-You see venee Corruptions is everywhere in the world but it’s Painful to note that the top ten list of the most corrupt countries are from Africa.

  130. 130 Shirley
    August 16, 2008 at 05:27

    Amy, when you are able to check in with Jamily, you have my permission to facilitate an exchange.

  131. August 16, 2008 at 05:28

    @ Bob in quesnland-
    Amazing,-I really cann’t remember any BP without you.But I am suprised so for Kathi hasn’t showed up.I am sure she has a good reason for deciding to keep us in the Cold’

    @ WHYS congress

    You’r Comments Please-Some day’s back you said ‘WHYS Listners are scartered all over the world-hence the impossibility of WHYS Congress-..Or did I misunderstood You?

  132. August 16, 2008 at 05:32

    @ Andrew-thank you very much for you’r co-operation,I really appreciate that.It’s early in the morning here in Kenya.And I am fresh from Bed.So don’t worry..But please let’s do our level best to keep the to keep on talking?

  133. August 16, 2008 at 05:33

    What are the pros and cons of some nations who enlist athletes from better known track nations to run for them. The women’s 10,000m race last night had African runners in Dutch and Turkish strips. Does this really reflect on a nation’s sporting prowess when they show off their athletes that have been easily bought from elsewhere with the sole purpose of boosting their medal tally?

    I am constantly amused to hear sports commentators noting how the Olympics pool was geared to be fast and produce record times. Just how does a swimming pool become fast? And Michael Phelps has achieved his 7th gold. Can he do the expected?

  134. August 16, 2008 at 05:36


    Kathi is probably sensible and sleeping! Whereas Bob might just never sleep?

    I might be a little later in on Sunday as I have just found out I have to stop in to see a family member in hospital, at about this time for just a few hours.

  135. 135 Shirley
    August 16, 2008 at 05:39

    Andrew, I am confident that Michael can get another gold. Can you believe his finish in the 100, though? A fingertip! .001 second! Amazing!

    I agree with you about co-opting athletes form other countries. I wonder if countries do this because of the sensationalised nature of the media coverage of the Olympics, with Olympic celebrities and celebrity sports.

  136. August 16, 2008 at 05:39

    @ Andrew (My Precious Co-host)On Atheletics-Our country has really suffered when it comes to athelets turn off their the nationality-Many World Star who were born In kenya have decided to change their nationalities to other countries and they have won Gold Medals for them.but you see the athelet’s are more interested in Money and known are patriotic.
    Phelps-He is a star,but I will preffer him to Marian Jones.She has been a great athelet..sorry for her..for ending her career in such a bad shape-For been sent to jail-for testing positive for performance enhancing Drugs.

  137. August 16, 2008 at 05:44

    @ Shirley..Morning From Kenya.
    Sports is definately are a very important tool towards uniting nations.I just that Athelets should be banned from changing their nationalities to that of other countries-esp African Stars changing to American and Europe Stars..

  138. August 16, 2008 at 05:48

    @ ANDREW-You’r free to go and attend that family member of yours in Hospital-I am really very sorry a bout that.tell him/her that all WHYS listners are wishing Him/her A quick recovery.

    I will be Taking Charge..
    And I will really be looking forward to you joining me-thanks

  139. August 16, 2008 at 05:49

    On the one hand you can understand that athletes from poorer countries would want what is best for them in terms of a future, not just with financial security, but also with being able to prolong or even simply to have a sporting career. It does make those nations even poorer in sports when they lose top athletes to another nation. Unlike poaching personnel for a position within a company to me it just doesn’t represent or reflect well on any nation well when they use recent imports to stock their sporting pool. I know Australia has done this and you would expect that a nation that prides itself on sports would have the opportunity to nurture their own talent without having to resort to diminish another nation’s talent.

  140. August 16, 2008 at 05:50

    Thanks Andi, that will be tomorrow at about this time. I’m here all day today and of course later Sunday.

  141. 141 Bob in Queensland
    August 16, 2008 at 05:51

    @ Amy

    I just noticed your 9:34 post about Peter Arnett in Baghdad for the first Guf War.

    While Peter was the only journalist from an American network, at least one of the big international TV news agencies (WTN) was also there, operating cameras and a satellite uplink. In fact, Peter used the WTN camera/uplink position to do his stand ups and reports. Interestingly, the “Ministry of Information” insisted on censoring all tape-based reports before they could be fed, but never seemed to worry about what was said by reporters during a live 2-way. The Al Rashid hotel was where all the gear was set up and transmissions happened from–you may recall that the lobby of the Al Rashid was hit by an errant cruise missle, killing an unfortunate receptionist.

    …and I know all this because I was one of the WTN technicians on that story.

  142. August 16, 2008 at 05:58

    @ Bob in Quensland?-I hope Army will react to your comments a bove,
    Andrew My precious and good Companion for This BP No.20
    is saying that Kathi could be sleeping -that’s why she did not showed up yet.What is the time in Ghent?..

  143. 143 Amy
    August 16, 2008 at 05:59


    I do remember that a lot of the reports were censored. Mr. Arnett came and spoke at my university the following year and I took off work to hear him speak. It was interesting to hear him talk about the experience of cruise missiles flying by his hotel room window. And what an experience for you. The journalist in me is jealous……

  144. 144 Shirley
    August 16, 2008 at 05:59

    Bob, I’m speechless.

    You’re certain the cruise missile was errant?

  145. 145 Amy
    August 16, 2008 at 06:00

    Good Night everyone from an unusually hot (100 F) Portland Oregon. I look forward to catching up in a few hours!

  146. 146 Bob in Queensland
    August 16, 2008 at 06:02

    @ Abdi

    Actually, I’m a relatively recent addition to the blog and Blank Pages–I only discovered this site back at the end of April.

    Re: WHYS Congress

    I didn’t say “impossible” but I did point out that, wherever it might be held, the vast majority of people on the blog would have pretty substantial transportation and accommodation costs. I also suggested that it might be fairer to, for example, our African friends to hold it someplace nearer them, both from a “news” point of view but also because of costs However, Julie now seems to think sunny Queensland would be a good venue so I’ve offered my spare rooms!

  147. August 16, 2008 at 06:09


    Off the top of my head it would be 6 or 7am.

  148. August 16, 2008 at 06:09

    @ Bob In Quensland-I think you’r a regular contributor to WHYS.That’s is away you’r a mong the three top listners
    @ WHYS Congress.
    I do really agree with .Some of us here in Africa shouldn’t be burdened with travel espenses! Imagine if WHYS decideds the venue to be London.Flight’s will cost me $ 900-go and back excluding Visa and other requirements’-What a bout in USA a fligght ticket cost $ 800 one way only-
    what a bout if held in Nairobi.it will cost me $ 25 to come to the capital city.

    So you see the big Diffrence?.Julie’s idea will be good for you.but she didn’t consider us-in Africa

  149. August 16, 2008 at 06:13

    The other possibility for getting people together would be for WHYS to enlist the aid of regional broadcasters and arrange a hook up across the globe.

    Say a studio in Africa, the UK, States and here in Australia where listeners could gather as the BBC has done in the past. In fact last night there were guests in various studios. But of course I am talking about a programme and not an event where people can mingle over the course of a day or so.

  150. 150 1430a
    August 16, 2008 at 06:20

    hello everyone
    First of all a heart full thanks to everyone on WHYS for allowing me to talk on the show yesterday(i would have liked to talk a bit more).It was my first time so i am not sure if could present my points as clearly as i would have liked but it was a great expeirence and i do hope to speak in future.

  151. August 16, 2008 at 06:23

    Hi Abhinav, get settled in for the next round and a return spot. It is amazing how you can prepare for a short talk and then forget something major! Or you slot in during a point about something else and have to come up with something completely different.

  152. August 16, 2008 at 06:24

    @ Andrew–My Dear Companion-
    on your views of WHYS congress-
    The Main Objective of WHYS congress is not to have WHYS listners talking to each other in their respective Studio’s No..
    WHYS is A global ONE strong Family and We are trying to bring Toghether .LUBNA-in Baqdad-Iraq,
    .KATHERINA-Ghent-Belgium,ZEINAB-Baqdad-Iraq,JULIE P,
    .DANNIS-in New York-USA,BOB-in Quenslamd-Austrlia,
    .VIRGINIA DAVIS,-in Portrland,ARMY,VIRGINIA-In Oregon
    .Mathew,in USA,Shaun-in Halifax,Jeff-in Portland
    .JUlie,-in Kampala-Uganda,Hannah-in England,Angela-in Washington DC
    And Coourse to Make to drink a cup of coffee Toghter.

  153. 153 Venessa
    August 16, 2008 at 06:25

    Abdi ~

    You are correct; it would be painful for me to know that where I was is in the top ten lists for corruption. While I am frustrated with my country I am glad that I was born here. I can’t help but think about the tragedy and difficulty so many other people in the world live with. The difficulties in my life can’t compare.

  154. August 16, 2008 at 06:26


    That would be difficult, but wouldn’t it be amazing were it to be possible.

  155. August 16, 2008 at 06:32

    @ Vennessa
    I really agree with you when you Write “I can’t help but think about the tragedy and difficulty so many other people in the world live with. The difficulties in my life can’t compare.”
    Corruption has really made life very dificult for people in my continent!..Many live below the poverty line as a result of Corruption.Few “Greedy Sharks continue Keeping Billions of Stolen Dollars in Banks in the US and Europe.AS I wright this morning MIllions of people haven’t taken Super last night and Haven’t taken Breakfast so Far.So How do you expect Africa to Develop?
    Thank God for you’r not in Africa but You speak as IF you have an African Background? Do you?

  156. August 16, 2008 at 06:33


    That reminds me of a programme recently screened here about young people in China and one entrepreneur who was setting up a business but did not approve of dealing with officials corruptly. Whether he was just avoiding the issue or presenting himself to be above corruption he noted that he should not have to pay bribes etc but knew it was a fact of doing business in China where officials and bureaucracy were unavoidable. He added that he did not engage in the practice of bribery but if his partner did so, then that was out of his control. No doubt he wasn’t able to establish his business without his partner greasing the wheels along the way.

    It must be a difficult decision for someone who wishes to do a deal in some of these countries but comes from a nation where corruption is not an issue at all. Then faced with the choice, pay bribes and make your money here or stand on principle and be locked out – to lose to a rival who doesn’t have any ethics.

  157. August 16, 2008 at 06:39

    In a longer term view if you want to run a business and provide employment for others (some people are not simply out for personal profit but think of the wider community) but you are hamstrung by bureaucracy and corruption to the point where you lose out and either close your business or never open it to begin with then so many people lose out for the sake of a few greedy individuals.

    I remember when working in local government there were times when I was offered inducements (not on a grand scale) but politely declined them. Still I would look at my colleagues and think often, which one of these people isn’t so keen to be clean? I realised later when working on combined projects that just about all of my colleagues would not think twice about accepting “thought adjusting” gifts, especially at Christmas time. But it happens everywhere, it seems you can’t escape it.

  158. 158 Venessa
    August 16, 2008 at 06:51

    Abdi ~

    I have no African background. I just came from a very abusive white home in Oregon, USA. I grew up with bigots and people that feared diversity. For some reason I just think respect for humanity and individuals is more important than some opinion I am spoon-fed on the subject of who to fear or hate. Does that make sense?

  159. August 16, 2008 at 07:04

    @ Venessa-
    It’s very nice to hear an American Speaking like that.Of course their ‘a humanity factor’but Peolple in America do feel to be more superior than the african’s.
    We also have to blame ourself’s(africans)-for having the natural beleive that we are inferior thus we end up dressing,eating,walking and speaking the Western Way.

    Over to you vennessa.

  160. 160 Shirley
    August 16, 2008 at 07:08

    Does that mean that in order to have a political career, one muct deal with bribes? According to what you said, corruption begins at the city level. At least, that’s how I read it.

  161. August 16, 2008 at 07:14


    I say this not entirely sarcastically because I have seen it, but I would have thought that it is the way that politics is done.

    From what I see of lobby groups in the US for one example, the biggest purse speaks the loudest. And I fear that any politician who looks me in the eye and says with a straight face they are immune to financial persuasion is quite simply a liar.

  162. 162 Venessa
    August 16, 2008 at 07:24

    Andrew ~

    There is always corruption and I think about the points you bring up often but how do you change something that is intrinsic human nature? There is no argument from me that the bigger purse truly does provide the most influence.

  163. August 16, 2008 at 07:28

    @ Andrew
    Please Bro,take Charge as I go and take some Breakfast.Many Thanks,I will join you later,

    Kwaheri from Kenya to Australia…

    Continue ..

  164. August 16, 2008 at 07:34


    That’s the problem. I don’t think you ever will. Certainly with official government dealings you might make it illegal for officers to accept bribes period! But then you have to have the will to enforce such a decision and you have to have the capacity to monitor bureaucrats on a regular basis. The problem might arise with this system because it is the senior officers who want their cut of the action and to stamp it out in the lower ranks means they will have to forgo their own corrupt methods.

    As for private dealings, if someone wants something bad enough and they have some means to achieve it, corruption will never disappear. Seriously, if you were going to do something but had doubts and someone else came up to you and offered you a premium over the top, who really would turn it down?

  165. 165 Venessa
    August 16, 2008 at 07:39

    Abdi ~

    The great shame is that everyone should realize we all bleed the same blood no matter what color of skin we have or where we live in the world. I don’t disagree that there are many people that feel more superior to others and what is sad is those individuals are missing out on learning about someone else’s understanding of the world. There is nothing I like more than traveling somewhere foreign and outside of my comfort zone and welcoming a dissimilar way of life from my own. Often I try to imagine how different my life would be if I was born in Mexico, Africa, Europe, Middle East, Asia, anywhere. I want to know how other people experience life; it’s what makes us unique.

  166. 166 Venessa
    August 16, 2008 at 07:40

    Andrew ~

    You are absolutely correct. History proves that man is greedy and desires power over others.

  167. 167 Bob in Queensland
    August 16, 2008 at 07:42

    Re: Corruption

    Even if we don’t stoop to “under the counter” bribes, how much influence does a campaign donation to McCain or Obama buy? In the UK, do you want influence or a knighthood or both for your donation to Labour or the Conservatives.

    For that matter, isn’t “come out against abortion..or gays…or name your cause here… or we’ll tell all our supporters to vote against you” just another form of corruption?

  168. 168 Shirley
    August 16, 2008 at 07:43

    So much for teaching folks to fish. Perhaps I’d have better luck on top of a sub. I am trying to find any story on Dara Torres that mentions her 50m race. Before the race began, she approached one of the officials to ask them to delay the race because one of her competitors was having difficulty suiting up. The wires are all over Phelps, but I cannot find anything about this excellent display of sportsmanship on the part of Dara – not even mention of the race or the fact that she won it. Normally Olympic news hits the wires on http://news.yahoo.com/fc/Sports/Olympics rather fast, so this is rather weirding me out. A Google search on dara torres was less than satisfactory, as well. Searching for dara torres on news.yahoo.com was also relatively unproductive. If anyone sees anything about her sportsmanship or even her winning the 50m, please let me know.

  169. 169 Virginia Davis
    August 16, 2008 at 07:44

    @Jamily5: Thank you for all your discussion about learning as a blind person.
    Virginia in Oregon (same as Virginia Davis)

  170. August 16, 2008 at 07:48

    On Bob’s comment about political donations. Maybe I am a cynic but you really have to be so naive not to equate political donation with future influence.

    After all, “I got you over the line with my money now you owe me.”

  171. August 16, 2008 at 07:57

    Has the world moved on from the weather and conditions in Beijing to the razzle dazzle of golden glory?

    It was such a huge issue not more than a few days ago.

    Perhaps a good topic for discussion following on from the does the internet make us stupid could be, is our attention span and news interest getting even shorter?

  172. 172 Bob in Queensland
    August 16, 2008 at 08:15

    @ Andrew

    Actually, I’d say the Internet allows news addicts to continue to supply their addiction for longer periods of time. It’s the conventional broadcasters (and even papers) who move the agenda on to something new while a story is still ongoing.

    In the defence of the media, though, there are only so many times you can lead a bulletin with “The Beijing Olympics continue to dazzle while human rights violations also continue”. News, by definition, needs a new angle to hang a story on or it WILL move to the back of the queue.

    I fear WHYS must be about the same. It’s not that I don’t care about events in China; I just have no new insights to share.

  173. August 16, 2008 at 08:17


    That’s what regimes like China hope for.

    When people forget and news agencies stop reporting… “The Beijing Olympics continue to dazzle while human rights violations also continue”. Then they have won.

  174. 174 Shirley
    August 16, 2008 at 08:20

    Olympic Weather
    Andrew, there have been some rains in Beijing that were heavy enough to clear out some of the heat, humidity, and haze. Now that Phelps is so close to breaking all kinds of records, the weather seems to have fallen under the radar. I’ve been clicking every story on the detention of protesters as I can get my mouse on.

    Political Corruption
    Bob, Andrew, I really don’t think that our votes are worth as much as our money. Check out some of the more powerful PACs in DC, find out how much they donate to whose cammpaigns, and watch the policies develop in response. It’s just so disappointing that not even city-level politics is safe from this ill.

  175. August 16, 2008 at 08:23


    How often, well not that much because they do try their best to keep it under wraps, but occasionally we do hear about under the table ‘political donations’ to either the party in question or to individuals within it.

  176. 176 Bob in Queensland
    August 16, 2008 at 08:29

    @ Andrew

    But, arguably, the role of news broadcasters is not to promote causes–or “name and shame” regimes like China. It is to report news. By all means, the story should be back at the top of the heap the next time China clamps down on another set of protesters, but how far can they go?

    Should the first five minutes of every bulletin be an alphabetical check list of the world’s baddies? Maybe:

    Afghanistan: Taliban still lurking while USA runs off to Iraq. Check.
    Burma: Generals still ignoring the well-being of their people. Check
    China: Games dazzle while repression continues away from the Olympics. Check

    …and so on. I fear that it’s not the job of the media to campaign against any of these causes…and it wouldn’t be effective if they tried.

  177. 177 Bryan
    August 16, 2008 at 08:31

    Venessa August 16, 2008 at 3:53 am

    Bob ~ you are always the voice of good reasoning. You are hard to argue with! 😉

    I find myself compelled to argue with Bob. I don’t agree with this:

    Re: Bullying–Bush vs. Russia

    It’s never nice to be bullied and I suspect the perception of which is worse probably depends on whether your the victim or one of the group of jeering witnesses that inevitably surround bullies.

    (Bob in Queensland August 16, 2008 at 3:43 am)

    My experience of the school playground is quite different. I found that the sympathy of the group around the bully and his victim was generally with the victim, though the fear of becoming the next victim would often preclude intervention. I never saw a confrontation in which the crowd egged the bully on.

    And if there is really no difference between being bullied by the US or Russia, then there is no difference between:

    *Gitmo and the Gulag
    *the treatment of World War II prisoners taken by Russia and the US
    *Russian denial of the right of its Jewish citizens to emigrate and American concern for the rights of each and every US citizen.

    Now while I concede that one is just as dead whether hit by a US or Russian bomb, I know whose hands I would not like to be in if captured alive.

    Is it really all the same, Bob?

  178. August 16, 2008 at 08:32


    Follow up was the word I was thinking of.

    Yes, new things come up but it would be good on slow news days to do more than the usual (for Aus viewers) lost puppy or car through the front window story.

  179. 179 Bob in Queensland
    August 16, 2008 at 08:33

    @ Shirley

    I’d say “city level” politics is at even more risk of corruption. The oversight is less and the ability of even minor officials to change something is much greater at a local political level.

    A hundred dollars won’t buy you much influence at a federal level…but I bet it might help you get planning permission for your new kitchen if you knew who to bribe.

  180. 180 Shirley
    August 16, 2008 at 08:34

    Fishing the Web from atop a Submarine?
    Wait stop don’t click a thing I think I found it. Oyyy. Maybe putting in requests for help to the WHYS blog has the same effectiveness as a Google search? Anyway.

    Olympic Sportsmanship
    What a woman. Dana Torres flagged down one of the officials before the 50m women’s swimming heat (sorry, just a heat, not the race) to request a delay in the start of the race. Therese Alshammar from Sweden was having trouble with a ripping swimsuit. After Dara tried unsuccessfully to help Therese fix the suit, she went out to the poolside, walked right up to the officials, and asked one to delay the race so that Therese could get into a working swimsuit. My fmaily and I watched the heat with grins splitting our faces ear to ear. Dara has more sportsmanship than the NBC commentators for men’s volleyball. (Or do the same talking heads mutter nonsense in our ears for every televised event?)

  181. 181 ben's younger brother
    August 16, 2008 at 08:36

    Hi everyone,

    I support the idea of a WHYS Congress. London is a good option but very expensive. However, it is possible to reduce costs, for example, by hiring a school or college ( with or without accommodation) in the holidays when there are no classes.

    just my tuppence worth.

  182. August 16, 2008 at 08:38


    You are right.

    I can’t remember the number of times I failed a development on a simple thing like being unable to drive your car into the driveway because it was substandard only to have the person who bought the property contact me and berate me because they cannot get their car into the garage of their new half million dollar home.

    I would get the crap while I could see my report was ignored and the town planners approval stamped all over it. Of course the call went through to that department and they just transferred it to me.

    It didn’t help when I suggested to the owner that had been smart, before they paid all that money they could have done something basic like actually see if the car would fit. Needless to say that TP personnel never joined me on-site when I had to placate an irate owner.

    So I wonder what they got out of it when there was no way this devlopment should have been approved prior to construction.

  183. 183 Bob in Queensland
    August 16, 2008 at 08:50

    @ Bryan

    I guess there are actually a couple of separate topics here.

    On the literal topic of school bullying, my most recent experience (a teenage daughter beaten up on the way home) was that the assembled crowd was indeed egging the bullies (plural) on. By the time my daughter got home, the mobile phone videos were already up on Youtube with predictably nasty captions. Maybe, as you say, the motive for this support was to stay under the bullies’ radar but the end result is the same. It’s worth saying that even moving 10,000 miles hasn’t changed things. There’s a bullying problem here in Aus too…and if it really is global then I think this might be a valid WHYS topic.

    As for the bigger issue that started this, yes I do compare “Gitmo and the Gulag”. Oh, Gitmo might be a slightly better existence than a forced labour camp but both are places designed to hold “inconvenient” prisoners outside the rule of normal civil law. As soon as the USA–or any other country–decides that civil rights can be ignored, they’ve surrendered the moral high ground and joined “the dark side”. To paraphrase a bad old punchline “we’ve already established the princple, now we’re just arguing over the details”.

  184. 184 Katharina in Ghent
    August 16, 2008 at 08:54

    Hakuna Matata, Abdi!

    It’s 9.51 am in Ghent, I’ve been up for about an hour and haven’t finished reading all 174 comments yet! Thanks for worrying about me so much! Gone are the days where I found only about 50 comments on a Saturday morning, if so many!

    I will post more in a little while when I’ve finished catching up with all of you.

  185. August 16, 2008 at 09:12

    long live boro ,MIDDLESBOROUGH FOOTBALL CLUB…..no games this season


  186. August 16, 2008 at 09:17

    Seems a quiet moment right now.

    Might just pop in and out between here and the kitchen to start dinner!

  187. 187 Bob in Queensland
    August 16, 2008 at 09:24

    @ Andrew

    I won’t be cooking for about an hour tonight, so I can hang around.

    By the way, when I used the “town planner” example in the corruption topic, I had no idea you were involved in that side of things! Glad I struck a chord though!

  188. August 16, 2008 at 09:27

    @ Andrew
    I am back my Friend,
    Thanks God Katherina is with us,I tried to sent her an email but it didn’t go through.
    Kathi please tell us what happened,I have seen any BP without you,

  189. 189 Shirley
    August 16, 2008 at 09:29

    Bob, we all know that bullying occurs in the States. You’ve experienced it in the U.K. and witnessed it in Aus. And you could blow me over with a feather if it didn’t happen in Canada and other parts of the world. I do think that bullying is a viably international topic. And if it can lead to tragedies such as Columbine, then it is most certainly relevant and sensationalist enough to incite some heated discussion.

  190. August 16, 2008 at 09:30

    @ Katharina
    HI Kathi,gone are the days,I am really excited today as their are possibilities that we shall ‘Break the 500 comments Boarder By Monday Morning”..
    It’s Exactly 11:30am in the Morning here in Kenya..

  191. August 16, 2008 at 09:31


    Add one more post ha ha!

  192. August 16, 2008 at 09:37

    ISLAM-How do you view Islam,is it a religion of peace? do you think it’s fair to associate terrorism with Muslims?..
    Do you feel that Muslims and Christian Countries can foster political Friendship?

  193. 193 Shirley
    August 16, 2008 at 09:38

    More Shia pilgrims killed in Iraq. Are security forces equipped and trained enough to offer any kind of real protection to Iraqi and international religious pilgrims?

    Lubna, are you ok? Are they considered shuhada?

  194. August 16, 2008 at 09:41

    @ Andrew
    Ok..ha..ha..Don’t go away..put on Earphones and log on to http://www.abdiloveskenya.wordpress.com
    Enjoy the Musics I am sure Kathi will do the same,I am just so attracted to Kathi..she is cool and respectiful that is why despite me been a black african and a muslim she doesn’t care.

  195. August 16, 2008 at 09:45

    Can Africa reverse rural urban migration?
    What would it take for you to live in a rural town? Would the quality of your life be better? What incentives should government use to stop this migration? Is it realistic to expect young people to live in rural towns?

  196. 196 Shirley
    August 16, 2008 at 09:46

    I don’t think that violence is an intrinsic or accepted part of any organised religion. Even when factions within various religious turn extremist, they nearly always offer reasons dealing with political grievances.

    It is tempting, though to designate a remote deserted island for those fanatics who associate their cause with their religion of choice. When Bush gets off the phone with God, perhaps he can discuss any differences in his revelations with those that Obama received.

  197. August 16, 2008 at 09:52


    Perhaps in a poorer nation where there are few prospects urban migration in inevitable, take China for one where the countryside through necessity move to where the money is.

    The problem with that is that who is left to support the rest? In modern times it seems that little regard is given to the farmer, the primary producer who makes life possible by feeding the population. Riots over food prices never reflected what the farmer invests and it was always the middlemen who profited.

    More investment should be made towards both compensating the farmers, those who actually do the work and provide for the rest. More importantly they should be protected as without them we cannot survive. Little respect for the base of the food chain will lead to further problems especially if you as a farmer do not feel you are valued and certainly not compensated for the vital work you do towards the well-being of the world.

    We can live without managers and we can live without wholesalers and speculators.

  198. August 16, 2008 at 09:55

    I can’t help but think that perhaps GW was a bit shaken when he heard the news that George… eeya was attacked by the Russians.

  199. 199 Bob in Queensland
    August 16, 2008 at 10:01

    @ Shirley

    I do accept that the majority of the Islamic world does NOT embrace the fanatical terrorism that a few espouse. However, I think that moderate Islam needs to become more proactive when it comes to condemning the fanatics. Silence all too often seems like complicity.

    @ Andrew

    Actually I had a similar thought–but the president who would have been REALLY upset upon learning of a Russian attack on Georgia would have been Billy Carter!

  200. August 16, 2008 at 10:02

    Another problem with urban migration relates to national security.

    Think about it, I am heading off to Singapore in a week and here is a country that is completely dependant on other nations, principally Malaysia for its food and water supplies as Singapore has no agriculture of its own.

    The relationship with Malaysia isn’t the best and they were concerned that their water flowed in from across the causeway. Now they have invested in a water recycling system to have some control over its essentials and soon they will add to it with desalination works. Though it will require great amounts of energy which they need to get from elsewhere.

    But the point is that they are completely dependant on the outside world for their essentials. And this is something that those nations where urban migration is taking off should consider.

  201. August 16, 2008 at 10:08

    @ Andrew-on Popolations,so how can we reduce rural-urban Migrations?

  202. August 16, 2008 at 10:09

    Oh yeah Bob, did you see there is a North Ossetia, on the Russian side of the border with Georgia.

  203. August 16, 2008 at 10:12


    One solution would be to invest (not easy when the money isn’t there) in the regionals areas. For the most part people will not leave their home towns if the work is there for them. But of course the lion’s share of money gets invested in the big cities because the infrastructure is there, the labor force is there and so on.

    Until a serious effort is made to direct the money to the rural areas people will go to where they feel the prospects are. Of course that doesn’t negate the desire to live in an urban setting, to throw off the countryside for a more ‘civilised’ setting.

  204. 204 Katharina in Ghent
    August 16, 2008 at 10:12

    Hi everyone!

    @ african olympic medals: The Zimbabwean swimmer did get quite a bit of coverage in the Austrian news, though I’m not sure whether this was because a) it’s swimming, which gets a lot more coverage these days in general because of Michael Phelps or b) because she’s a white Zimbabwean winning… must be the last white Zimbabwean standing.

    @ Abdi:

    I’ll need to find some quiet time before I can listen to your music, Saturdays are usually quite hectic, and on top of that my son feels sick (throwing up) so it’s not so much fun today, really. BTW: If you wanted to nominate the most loyal Whysers, you shouldn’t forget Shirley, Venessa, Julie, Amy, Luz Ma (even though she’s working now), of course Steve and Will, and now Jonathan, Bryan etc. Compared to them, I’m almost an irregular.

  205. 205 Bob in Queensland
    August 16, 2008 at 10:15

    @ Andrew and Abdi

    I don’t fancy Africa’s chances of halting the rural to urban migration–because, in this regard at least, Africa is merely following the same path that other developing countries have trod since the industrial revolution. I’m not saying it’s necessarily good, just inevitable.

    I’m not sure I agree with Andrew’s point that this somehow reduces farming. What often happens is that agriculture is, in fact, industrialised. Where there were 20 small farms there will be one huge one…and where there used to be 50 people working, one person and a jumbo tractor do the job. Again, I have mixed feelings about this. I much prefer seeing the small, picturesque farms, but if the goal is to feed the world maybe an efficient, industry-based farm is the way to go.

  206. 206 Katharina in Ghent
    August 16, 2008 at 10:15

    I have two African questions:

    @ Abdi:

    I read in an article that the wildlife in Kenya is in serious danger because 90% of the tourists are staying away following the recent violence and the people who used to life off the tourists are now poaching. Can you elaborate a bit more about this?

    @ Nelsoni:

    Given that you live in Nigeria and enjoy quite a high level of education, would it be fair to consider you to come from a highly priviledged family? If that is the case, how do you view the problems in Nigeria concerning the oil wealth on the one hand and the poverty/violence on the other hand in your country?

  207. August 16, 2008 at 10:24


    That will often put these super farms in the hands of corporations as the smaller titled farmer is pushed out and their land taken.

    That often leads to less diversity and more generic food production which is all our loss.

  208. August 16, 2008 at 10:28

    Note to other moderators out there.

    I am going to finish getting dinner ready and eat some it myself.

    Be gone for about an hour or so. Can some cover?

    I am sure Abdi is here quietly beavering away.

  209. 209 Bob in Queensland
    August 16, 2008 at 10:31

    @ Andrew

    In my heart I agree with you. The super farm “prairies” in east Anglia in the UK are not nice to see. However, in my head I wonder if this earth can realistically feed 6+ billion people without the most efficient agricultural techniques. Is “diversity” and old fashioned farming a luxury we can no longer afford if we’re to feed the world?

    Hmmm…methinks I see another topic here.

  210. August 16, 2008 at 10:33

    @ Katharina
    I wish your son a quick recovery,Satardy’s are hectic as you have said.My Music will cool you’r heart and it will reduces of you worrying a bout you’r soon
    On Nominations-You’r aregualr listner though I can’t denny that Venessa,Steve,Brett,Will,and Julie are also great contributors but above all of them you stole my heart.My heart,brain and senses feel that it has to be kathi.
    on Wildlife-I don’t agree with.Despite Kenya having an election violence Many continue to come to Kenya as you did come during your Hooney moon.Ten years Back.
    Wildlife are not also a danger to Human beings.

    Keep me company kathi..don’t go away,

  211. August 16, 2008 at 10:35


    It has been covered before, but I stil don’t think enough serious thought has been given to the topic of population control.

    It is almost as if this really isn’t an issue. We seem to think that we can go on unchecked and spread exponentially. Which is exactly what we are doing and it wont be a pretty sight. To talk about population pyramids and crashes, the cost to economies or following generations who will have to support the oldies is quite astounding. Somewhere along the way we will have to cut back. It will happen and it should be thought of seriously now, sooner than later. Why wait for the crash to come before we do anything, or perhaps it is just a too tough problem?

  212. 212 Bryan
    August 16, 2008 at 10:48

    Bryan wrote:
    “Learn the language,
    learn the culture and learn the customs AND put them into daily practice.”

    It wasn’t me but I’ll try to answer your question:

    So, are ppl mostly up in arms because immigrants have a dificult time learning English or don’t want to learn English?

    I don’t think anyone would have a problem with immigrants having difficulty learning English, but only with the refusal to learn English. There is a black American radio talk show host, Terry Anderson, who is leading a crusade against the illegal Mexican invasion of the US, and is really fired up about it. He has photos on his site of Mexicans burning the American flag, believe it or not, and hoisting the Mexican flag above the American one.

    I am sorry that you can’t click on the link. Maybe someone will develop a keyboard programme that emits a sound when you get to the address bar so that you can access and send links. Here’s the link anyway:


    There are also many Mexicans who are legally established in the US and object strongly to the illegal invasion. Apparently McCain, like George W. Bush, is with the illegals and will do everything he can to ease the conditions of their lives in the US, rather than deporting them – which is of course what should be done if these two had any respect for the laws of their own country.

  213. 213 Bryan
    August 16, 2008 at 10:52

    Meant to add that the last comment was in response to Jamily5 at 2:52 am.

  214. August 16, 2008 at 10:56

    Hi again gang ! ;-)… My dearest Shirley : May peace be to you sweetie… Ah, as for my usage of the word ”Shiite”, our beloved Andrew North is to blame about this darling… He’s actually the one who taught me to use that word ! ;-)… I am thankfully safe and sound my love… Thanks so much for asking about me… Of course Shirlrey those innocent civilian Shia pilgrims murdered senselessly in today’s terrorist attack are considered to be martyrs… On Sunday one of the biggest religious festivals in the Islamic Shia calender is due to take place in the Iraqi holy city of Karbala where from five to nine million Muslim Shia pilgrims are supposed to celebrate the annual Hijri anniversary of the twelfth Shia Imam, Al Imam Al Mehdi at the holy Shrine of Al Imam Al Hussein, the 1st generation grandson of the Prophet Mohammed… It’s extremely hard for any government and security forces to protect from five to nine million people heading on foot towards one place in an enviroment which is unfortunately still extremely dangerous and hostile like our Iraq… And thank goodness honey, in the past hundreds and hundreds of innocent civilian Shia pilgrims used to be senselessly murdered on occasions like this, so there’s a significant improvementi in the security situation on the ground all over the country, which is a pretty good thing eh ?! Unfortunately I don’t have access to ginger honey … And my situation is still unfortunately the same, no improvement yet… May be the magical effect of Ramadhan will manage to mend my soul, Inshallah… With my love… Yours forever, Lubna…

  215. August 16, 2008 at 11:01

    @ Lubna thanks for you’r article a bout shiite Muslims.Do you look forward to Holy Ramadhan which is just few weeks away?..
    When will be the Results of you’r Examinations Be out?
    it’s Dhur time and it’s exactly 1pm.so let me go for my dhur prayers and Lunch.
    is their anyway that we can have a delicious african lunch toghter today..ha..ha…ha ..
    (It’s jokes)..But I will have really liked.bye see you after 1 hour.

  216. 216 Bryan
    August 16, 2008 at 11:21

    Shirley August 16, 2008 at 9:46 am

    I don’t think that violence is an intrinsic or accepted part of any organised religion.

    And probably at the very moment that you were typing that the Jihadis were carrying out or on their way to carrying out the latest killing and maiming of innocents in the name of the ‘Religion of Peace’:


    Here’s the Weekly Jihad Report from the site for August 2-8:

    Jihad Attacks: 42

    Dead Bodies: 210

    Critically Injured: 327

    I find myself in rare agreement with Bob at 10:01 that if this is not being done in the name of moderate Muslims far more of them need to speak out.

  217. August 16, 2008 at 11:53

    Andrew is back from dinner

  218. August 16, 2008 at 12:04

    My dearest Colleen : Hi again… I am so glad that you were able to find some benefit in my account about Al Manar Satellite channel… As for your 2nd question, I can speak only for myself here… I don’t hate Jews at all, and I don’t have any problem with them at all… In fact one of my most beloved friends, David, is a Jewish Rabbi living in Al Quds… But I just hate occupiers regardless of their religion, colour, race, or ethnicity… Even if they were Martians with green skin and long tails, I would’ve also hated them ! ;-)… In my opinion no one can best understand, appreciate, and sympathise with the sufferance and ordeal of the hungry, isolated, oppressed, occupied, poor, and hopeless but the hungry, isolated, oppressed, occupied, poor, and hopeless… So there’s no wonder at all that a young woman like me living in Baghdad, Iraq who has suffered a great deal and been through so many ordeals both under the ruling of Saddam Hussein and under the US occupaion, there’s no wonder at all when I say that I can claim that I can understand best the sufferance and ordeal of my brothers in our beloved Palestine… There’s nothing wrong at all with ”anti-occupation sentiments Colleen… Since I was a little child, I was raised on those sentiments, and I am extremely proud of carrying them in my heart, mind, and soul… those sentiments do make an essential part of who I am… With my love… Yours forever, Lubna… PS, Hi Vanessa my love… And thanks a million for sharing your story with us… It’s really very interesting !

  219. August 16, 2008 at 12:04

    Abdi is back from lunch

  220. 220 Bryan
    August 16, 2008 at 12:45

    Lubna August 16, 2008 at 12:04 pm,

    The Palestinians have practically the whole world behind them. They have:

    *UNRWA, the UN refugee agency specifically designed to assist Palestinian ‘refugees’, and nobody else, with no time limit.
    *Most of Europe, the counties of which jostle at the door of the Palestinians to be the first to resume giving them aid as soon as they lay down their weapons for a day or two.
    *Iran, which funds, arms and trains them for attacks on Israeli civilians.
    *Arab countries, like Saudi Arabia, which reward terror attacks on Israeli civilians.
    *Egypt, which generally turns a blind eye to weapons smuggling tunnels, though that seems about to change.
    *Hezbollah, their partners in terror up north.
    *The US State Department, which swallows every Palestinian myth it is fed and battles to get the best deal possible for them in every ‘peace’ negotiation.
    *International news organisations, like the BBC, which manipulate the news to show the Palestinians in the best possible light and frequently publish Palestinian propaganda unedited.

    The “hungry, isolated, oppressed, occupied, poor, and hopeless” Palestinians?

    Give us a break!

  221. August 16, 2008 at 12:51

    Now now Bryan

    The “hungry, isolated, oppressed, occupied, poor, and hopeless” Palestinians?

    Give us a break!

    Lubna does make a point. I don’t think is talking about those you oppose in Hammas, etc, but the masses, the everyday folk who want nothing to do with the conflict but are caught up in it.

  222. August 16, 2008 at 12:52

    Somalia – East Africa’s new Afghanistan?
    Al-Qaeda itself has made little secret of its approval of Islamist fighters in Somalia, with Osama Bin Laden frequently voicing his support for them.

    Most of the attention focuses on a group known as al-Shabab, the military wing of the Islamic Courts, the Islamist group that briefly ruled in Mogadishu until ousted at the end of 2006 by Ethiopian forces, backing up Somali government troops.

  223. 223 Jamily5
    August 16, 2008 at 13:03

    Can’t stay long, but wanted to check in.
    @virginia, Its life and don’t mind sharing it with anyone!
    It makes me more human and broadens connections.

    Great!! and I am glad that you fished for the humane story!
    I can press enter on a link and it will take me to that web page.
    What I can’t seem to do is to highlight that link so that I can post it to others.
    But, thanks for the link.
    Most Mexicans, though, don’t disrespect the American flag.
    I wonder what (exactly) constitutes as “not assimilating.” These actions that you have mentioned are rare (percentage wise).

    What, exactly did you enjoy for lunch?
    Lunch in Kenya — HMMM.

  224. 224 Bryan
    August 16, 2008 at 13:06

    Andrew August 16, 2008 at 12:51 pm,

    I don’t see why you are admonishing me. The majority of ‘ordinary’ Palestinians approve of suicide bombing of Israeli civilians. This is shown in poll after poll taken by the Palestinians themselves. And let’s not forget that they voted Hamas into power.

    Corruption was being discussed on this thread. Why don’t Palestinian leaders use the abundant funds flowing in in aid to assist their people more? Why divert so much of it for weapons or to line their own pockets?

    Yasser Arafat died a very wealthy man indeed. It’s about time Palestinian supporters stopped playing the blame-everyone-but-the-Palestinians-themselves game and took a closer look at what is actually happening within Gaza and the West Bank.

  225. August 16, 2008 at 13:07

    Guns for Texas school’s teachers
    Teachers in one part of the US state of Texas are to be allowed to carry concealed firearms when the new school term opens this month.


  226. August 16, 2008 at 13:09

    @ Jamily5
    Thank you very much for visiting my website and posting a comment.As you requested I will add more post a bout kenya,i.e Culture,news,inter-marriages .ect

    What did I enjoeyed for lunch
    I have just taken delicoous lunch of Fish,beans and a vacado..

  227. August 16, 2008 at 13:10

    With the spotlight firmly on Russia and their troop activities I hope that the emotion doesn’t cloud any suspicion that might be due to Saakashvili and Georgian troops.

  228. August 16, 2008 at 13:14

    I am not condoning the corruption by Palestinian authorities, in fact I think it utterly disgusting that they should be profiting and diverting funds to the people who need it the most.

    That said it doesn’t mean that Lubna’s comment about the downtrodden Palestinians is any less valid.

  229. 229 Jamily5
    August 16, 2008 at 13:18

    Thanks. I look forward to reading about cultures, customs, food, families, etc.
    Yes, I know that I could find tons of articles on Wikipedia,
    but, the human element is lost.
    Sounds like a quite healthy lunch!

  230. August 16, 2008 at 13:21

    @ Brian,

    Yes, unlike those nice Christian boys over there caring machineguns, grenades, bombs, controlling planes and helicopters in a land that never had anything to do with them. Alright, I will give to you that not all of those boys and girls are “Christian”, some may even be Muslim. Their driving ideology is spurred by political influence rather then a religious one. Does that make violence more justified? Because the west can create a united front propped up with flimsy or blatantly false accusation to justify the invasion and occupation of a more nomadic uninvited culture, it makes them better? This, a country that argues over the inclusion of “God” in their doctrines, claims values of Jesus Christ, and prides itself on equality takes a “sucker punch” and in turn set out to dam an entire religion.

    The “American” idealisms are like a religion. Its members expect the same thing members of religion expect. Patriotism has become a tool just as strong as any indoctrination. Many even as they read this and see my location are thinking, “ if you hate this country so much….” (These people miss the point of our creation.) In the US it is instilled “country over God” in the end. If your country calls you, you are taught that you must go kill, even if it is members of the same religion, living the same right path you are on. However, if your God calls you to kill some of your countrymen, the result is not so obedient. I am actually very glad for this, and would hope to see that practice continue.

    Then again, the Muslim religion is not only a religious doctrine, but also a political one. In our country we value separation of church and state. In Islamic cultures it seems they embrace it. The source of power in places like Iran are not the political leaders. It is the religious leaders.

  231. 231 Bryan
    August 16, 2008 at 13:21

    Jamily5 August 16, 2008 at 1:03 pm,

    I’m glad you got the link. I don’t know the percentage of radical Mexicans who live in America but reject the flag but I do know that the radicals have attracted considerable support with anti-American rallies and speeches.

    Assimilation? Someone who emigrates to another country should learn the language of that country as a basic step. It is generally true that the older the emigrant the less likely he or she is to master the language but I believe an effort should at least be made. In a country like America, everyone is free to retain and express their own beliefs and culture but that should obviously be done within the broader framework of US culture, the most important aspect of which is the language.

  232. August 16, 2008 at 13:22

    @ Jamily
    Thanks for you’r sweet comment.By the way my friend Are you in Europe or America?

  233. 233 Bryan
    August 16, 2008 at 13:43

    Dwight in Cleveland August 16, 2008 at 1:21 pm,

    One small difference of course: the aim of the coalition is not to kill civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan. Islamic terror is intentionally directed at civilians.

    That’s why, if it came down to it, as a civilian I would rather be on the wrong side of the Americans than the Islamists.

    However, even before the invasion of Iraq, I knew it would mean trouble. Toppling Saddam was arguably the right thing to do, but as for the rest….

    Now it’s up to the Iraqis. Can they stop killing each other?

  234. August 16, 2008 at 13:52


    Are you here?

    I need to go offline for about an hour, can you hold the fort until I return?

  235. August 16, 2008 at 13:57

    @ Andrew
    Yes I cam ,I am really enjoying Myself this weekend,Please return in 2/3 hours time.
    Many Thanks

  236. 236 Julie P
    August 16, 2008 at 14:05


    Saw the link about Texas. It looks like another reason to stay out of that state!

  237. 237 Julie P
    August 16, 2008 at 14:20


    It took me a second to find it. I knew Jamily5 answered the question as to where he is to someone else:

    August 16, 2008 at 3:52 am

    First, I am in Indiana, USA.”

  238. 238 Colleen
    August 16, 2008 at 14:28

    @ Shirley and Lubna,

    Thank you both so much for your perspectives on Al Manar… it’s difficult to get a variety of ideas on these matters in the US. and Lubna, i was not trying to say it is wrong to protest occupation, so i apologize if it came off like that… If either of you have the chance to see this documentary (Al Manar TV: In the Name of the Hezbollah) I would be curious to hear your opinions about its accuracy….

    have a nice weekend, all! 🙂

  239. 239 steve
    August 16, 2008 at 14:38

    Outrageous, a woman was arrested for cursing in a walmart. Honestly, if someone in a store walked up to you and told you to follow them to their car, what would you do?


  240. August 16, 2008 at 14:55

    Can anyone give me a timecheck in the States?

  241. 242 Julie P
    August 16, 2008 at 14:56

    It’s 9:56 in Atlanta.

  242. August 16, 2008 at 15:01

    Should be getting busy in about 2 hours or so perhaps?

    Those of us down under will be tucking their toes in under the covers if not already!

    I’l be around for a few more hours at least.

  243. August 16, 2008 at 15:09

    @ Julie P
    thanks for viewing the link.
    You haven’t visited by website yet.How is lile like turning 29 years.?

  244. 246 Bob in Queensland
    August 16, 2008 at 15:11

    May I propose a motion that the official time of WHYS be changed to Australian Eastern Standard Time and all posters should adopt those waking and sleeping hours.

    All in favour say “G’day”.


  245. August 16, 2008 at 15:11

    @ Andrew..
    We expect to get extremely busy after one hour from know?…you need to take juicy drinks..

  246. August 16, 2008 at 15:14

    @ Bob what an excellent Motion!
    Perhaps-I think the Normal(current time) is OK.Especially for us in Africa.

  247. August 16, 2008 at 15:18

    I second that Bob

    See I said you never sleep!

  248. 250 Julie P
    August 16, 2008 at 15:18


    We’ll all start eating Kangaroo meat in your honor!

  249. 251 Julie P
    August 16, 2008 at 15:23


    I have looked at your website, you do a good job with it. We’ll have to compare notes on national parks some time. I write some on National Parks, and environmental issues. In fact, this weekend I am working on the August update on the Great Lakes and the Great Lakes Compact.

  250. 252 Julie P
    August 16, 2008 at 15:24


    I forgot to mention. 29 years old was a while back for me. It’s an old joke about not wanting to state your real age.

  251. August 16, 2008 at 15:25

    @ Julie P
    “We’ll all start eating Kangaroo meat in your honor!”
    Islamically it will be wrong for us to do so.
    How is life in America.Do I like American’s ,I don’t like visiting America to be honest Because of America is highly inhabited by Foreigners,

    I am afraid to agree with a an indian caller in last night’s Show who said that America will can never compete with China,Brazil etc for the position of the most powerful state in the Next 2 to 3 decades.

  252. August 16, 2008 at 15:29

    @ Juile P thanks for visitig my websites.I really like that.Thanks too for congragulating me.
    You said
    ‘We’ll have to compare notes on national parks some time. I write some on National Parks, and environmental issues. In fact, this weekend I am working on the August update on the Great Lakes and the Great Lakes Compact.’

    please feel very free to access it anytime.
    You must be kidding a bout your age.I am quite sure your in age barraket of 23-29…

  253. 255 Julie P
    August 16, 2008 at 15:31


    People have been smacking their lips for decades about our downfall. I just chuckle when I read that.

    As for the US being full of “foreigners”. First, it’s an immigrant nation. Speaking for myself I have eight different ethnicities. Second, immigration occurs all over the world, so there is no stopping it. People are going to relocate whether people like it or not. Finally, I like the diversity we have. I think the place would be extremely boring without it. I’m not found of provincialism.

  254. 256 Julie P
    August 16, 2008 at 15:32


    Thanks, about the age thing. I’m 45.

  255. August 16, 2008 at 15:40

    Oh look Usain Bolt just won the 100m final in world record time… and to think he slowed in the final 40m to showboat and still won.

  256. 258 Bob in Queensland
    August 16, 2008 at 16:12

    Okay. Here’s a frightening EROSION OF CIVIL RIGHTS in the UK. It seems that police are using a mixture of anti-terrorism laws and the public’s paranoia about paedophiles as an excuse to hassle amateur photographers out taking pictures in public.

    Assuming this story is true, I find the treatment some of these people have received to be appalling.

    Just for the record, the actual legal situation in the UK is HERE.

    …and the US situation is HERE.

    …and finally, the legal position in Australia is HERE.

    Is this happening anywhere else, or is this solely an issue in the UK, USA and Australia?

  257. August 16, 2008 at 16:32


    This is absolutely ridiculous.

    Seems you are presumed guilty of virtually everything and anything.

    Reminds me of a time I was photgraphing an abandoned building, already being torn down. I went back to my car when two men approached me. I thought get to the car quickly because these guys looked like bad news. Just as I closed the door and fumbled for the keys, while still some distance away one of them flashed a badge.

    They came over and spoke to me, asked me what I was doing. I told them and they looked at me. Seems people were graffiting local buildings and they were undercover officers catching them as the vandals photographed their art. I said no and offered my camera before they asked, telling them I was shooting in black and white because the light.. the juxtaposition… I could see their eyes glaze over and they figured this nutter is definitely not into graffiti.

    But as a wider issue, OK I was in a iffy area and ran away – though I didn’t know who they were at the time. But in a major city, as a tourist, let alone a citizen or photographer doing the rounds you would either be a terrorist, a pervert shooting women or a pedophile bothering kiddies. Seems particularly if you are a man, then you must be.

    What does this mean for tourists? I intend to be in London in a few weeks, should I expect to be hassled, abused or asaulted if I am on the street and take a photo with passers by in the frame. I wish they would all get out of my way and allow me to take a clear shot, but that is not likely so what then?

  258. 260 Bob in Queensland
    August 16, 2008 at 16:40

    @ Andrew

    When I was last in London (exactly a year ago) there was certainly no hassle at any of the standard tourist spots. Cameras were as prevalent as always and the only hassle I had was getting a decent shot.

    However, your story about the abandoned building strikes a nerve. I have a penchant for black and while shots of graffiti on old walls and/or rusting fire escapes so it’s only a matter of time until I get into trouble. If I miss a BP I hope somebody will bail me out.

  259. August 16, 2008 at 16:45


    This past year a bayside camera club group were almost locked up as they liked the industrial look also. I can put my hand up to that as well. The oil company was not pleased.

    But what can you do, apparently walk with your eyes on the ground and not to dare to enjoy your surroundings.

    Actually I noticed on some of my tourist shots of Macao some faces glaring at me in the background!

  260. August 16, 2008 at 16:49

    I wont even begin to describe how much fun it was when I had to undertake traffic counts outside of primary schools to see if we could justify crossing supervisors!

    I know that my reg plate got reported a lot of times. But even something like that. If a cop later on decides to look me up for something, imagine when he sees that my vehicle had been reported n hundred times outside schools?

    That’s another issue. What about when a report had been made against you, despite there being no basis for it and no harm done. Your deatails are still on the system as having been written down for a reason. This no doubt follows you around.

  261. 263 Julie P
    August 16, 2008 at 16:57


    I’ll come to your rescue.

    Although I have not been hassled for taking photos, probably because I do not take many, I have been the recipient of unwanted attention from the police for looking at the police while driving. One time I was pulled over by a police officer after I watched him leave a gas station. After he saw me look at him he made a U turn and pulled his car in behind me and followed me down a side street. Once on the side street he pulled me over and ran checks on me. Once he could not find anything on me, he proceeded to lecture me for five minutes about the tags on my car needing to be renewed. They did not need to be renewed for another month. The other time I was followed be a police officer for the same thing. At one point I went into a subdivision to drop off an item at a friend’s house. Three minutes later as I drove out of the subdivision I saw the cop waiting for me in the bushes. He proceeded to follow me some more, until I pulled into a office park where it would be just me and him. I pulled into a parking lot to see what he would do. He slowed his cruiser down, took a good long look at me and then drove off. I really dislike being assumed guilty of something just because.

  262. 264 Bob in Queensland
    August 16, 2008 at 16:58

    Between this sort of thing, the explosion of security cameras everywhere and the electronic trail everyone leaves spending money, swiping store loyalty cards or just using the web, the big brother aspects of this are truly terrifying.

    Anyway, just to add to my electronic trail but dispel rumours of my insomnia, I’m off to bed. See you all in my morning.

  263. 265 Vijay Srao in Chattarnagar India
    August 16, 2008 at 17:00

    Try photography on a Saturday or Sunday in Midtown London(The Aldwych would be a good starting point) lots of space and only a few tourists.
    @BOB if you aren’t doing anything wrong what are you scared of,what does a paedophile or terrorist look like?
    @Julie P
    Is the Varsity still doing business?

    What’s happening to the pound sterling it’s dropped 15 cents against the Dollar in the last 15 days(7.5%)

  264. August 16, 2008 at 17:07


    You should know better than to point out a policeman’s stupidity.

    I used to work with them, they don’t like it!

  265. August 16, 2008 at 17:10


    That’s the problem I think. Those that you think aren’t this or that, but you suspect they are probably arent.

    It’s those that are doing something odd will give themselves away.

    Bush house is in Aldwych area. I asked Chole if I would be taken away should I stray too close ha ha!

  266. 268 Shirley
    August 16, 2008 at 17:10

    This is interesting.
    More women choosing careers in forensic science
    The AP news article does a contrast with lady foresnic scientists as portrayed on television and discussion some of the reasons that women are beginning to dominate the field. It’s a bit longish in a soundbyte world, but I found it easy to continue reading to the end.

  267. 269 Julie P
    August 16, 2008 at 17:11


    Although I do not get to Midtown very often the Varsity is still there. It’s an Atlanta institution. The Varsity Jr. that am more likely to go to, which still isn’t often, is still there. It’s the only place where I subject myself to eating deep fried onion rings. They make the best!

  268. 270 Julie P
    August 16, 2008 at 17:18


    I have lived in four counties in metro Atlanta, of the four I have lived in I have only been bothered by one. That county’s police has a nasty reputation, a reputation they seem to live up to. I wasn’t pointing out their stupidity, I was pointing out their police state tactics. I really cannot stand that police department.

  269. 271 Amy
    August 16, 2008 at 17:25

    Greetings everyone. Just got a chance to finish reading things from overnight. Hope everyone has had (or is having) a great Saturday. It is going to be another hot one here in Portland!

  270. 272 Amy
    August 16, 2008 at 17:33

    Kathi, I hope your son feels better soon. My little one went through something similar about a month ago Yuck – a nasty stomach bug that lasted 6 days! I know what you mean about Saturdays being hectic. At least for now, my older daughter no longer has tae-kwon-do in the AM so there is no big rush to get out the door. Look for her in the 2020 Olympics……she is 8 1/2 right now and has had her 1st degree black belt for a year. Who knows how good she will be in another 12 years – watch out world, here comes Natalie!!

  271. August 16, 2008 at 17:33

    Ah my dearest Colleen, please you don’t have to apologise to me about anything at all… You’re a knowledge seeker, and I do bear a great deal of respect and admiration in my heart for knowledge seekers… I was only trying to give you one example of a young Arab Muslim woman like myself and how I got to develop powerful ”anti-occupation sentiments”… Bless you always my good friend… And I am always ready to answer any question you have about anything…
    My dearest Andrew : Hi… And Thanks A Million as always my good friend… You know Andy, I guess that our beloved Bryan is (and Bryan, you may correct me if I am wrong) a strong opposer of the Palestinian people as a whole… Wow, may be instead of planning to travel to Turkey or Kurdistan next summer, may be I should convince my family to travel to one of the most prosperous, safe, and fast-growing areas in the Middle East, to the city which attracts the largest numbers of tourists from all over the world, The Gaza strip… And I demand from here the Palestinian government and the Palestinian defence forces to end immediately their very strict blockade of the peaceful Israeli city of Tel Eviv, open up all the crossings, and let goods, fuel, food, medications and other basic humanitarian demands immediately with no conditions to the poor, hungry, isolated, and hopeless innocent Israeli residents of the city… I am totally aware that since the creation of Israel 60 years ago, the Israeli people have elected so many extremists and brought them to power either as prime ministers or as ministers or even as MPs, but ”collective punishment” is never an option, is it ?! With my love… Yours forever, Lubna…

  272. 274 Amy
    August 16, 2008 at 17:34


    I do agree that some attempt at learning the language of the country you are in goes a long way but as of yet, the US has no official langauge so……

  273. 275 Vijay Srao in Chattarnagar India
    August 16, 2008 at 17:34

    @ Shirley P
    Do they still have “segregated” malls in Atlanta,it freaked me out ,I went a mall, all white people then another mall ,all black people.

  274. 276 steve
    August 16, 2008 at 17:36

    FINALLY! Canada won some medals!

  275. August 16, 2008 at 17:39

    Hi my dearest Kathi… Lots and lots of ”get well” wishes for your little guy Inshallah… With my love… Yours forever, Lubna…

  276. August 16, 2008 at 17:41

    Hello Lubna

    Good to hear from you.

    I dare not speak for Bryan, but I would hope that he is not ‘anti’ Palestinian, but he is definitely and you can see, doggedly, pro-Israeli.

    One thing he does not like is the sympathy people show to palestinians when compared to Israelis being targetted by terrorists.

    But simply by supporting a Palestinian cause or sympathy for the people, the average person who does not want war, that does not mean you negate what Israeli citizens go through when attacked. It also does not mean one supports terrorist groups either.

    Do enjoy what is left of the weekend Lubna. After about 13 hours sitting here, my eyes are starting to blur appreciably. And still another day to go, and the Monday as well!

  277. 279 Julie P
    August 16, 2008 at 17:41


    I’m sure your comment was aimed at me. Segregation has been over for so long I have never experienced it. I’ve lived in Atlanta for 22 years and experienced zero segregation. You may have experienced demographic patterns. I’ve been in malls where the demographic patterns do reflect what you state, but it’s not because of segregation. Segregation is illegal.

  278. August 16, 2008 at 17:42


    Canada sent a team?

  279. August 16, 2008 at 17:43

    Actually I would be interested to hear what some other moderators do to while away the long hours during stints on the blog.

  280. 282 Vijay Srao in Chattarnagar India
    August 16, 2008 at 17:46

    @Lubna you are medical student,do you get to disect cadavres(how fresh are they).

  281. 283 Vijay Srao in Chattarnagar India
    August 16, 2008 at 17:55

    you can still listen to the show one week after transmission if you have access to the internet.

  282. 284 Amy
    August 16, 2008 at 17:56

    Everyone….. since it looks as thought Lubna may be in Turkey next year I propose we all meet there for the WHYS congress since out of all of us (not factoring in financial problems) she is the one who would have the most trouble attending anywhere else. I am not sure what the process would be for our African friends but maybe that could be an option.

  283. August 16, 2008 at 18:00

    OK WHYSers…

    I have to put my head down for now. 3am here and have to pop in for a hospital visit unfortunately. Abdi should be around to cover that time of day.

    I see Amy is here, any other mods who can cover my unconscious period?

    See you later on, cheers everyone.

  284. 286 Amy
    August 16, 2008 at 18:03

    Shirley and Jamily5,

    Look for an email from me.


  285. 287 Amy
    August 16, 2008 at 18:03


    I’ll be here for a few hours at least so please, GET SOME SLEEP!!!


  286. August 16, 2008 at 18:13

    @ Andrew

    I am back ,you can go and sleep.Congragulations and thank you..lala salama..sweet dreams.Tommorrow morning tell me what you have dreamed about.ha..ha..ha

  287. 289 Shirley
    August 16, 2008 at 18:16

    Other Countries at the Olympics
    Non-celebrity nations got a sentence in a news article: Through Saturday, medals had been won by 61 nations, including the first ever for Togo, the first individual gold ever for India.

  288. 290 Shirley
    August 16, 2008 at 18:18

    Urbanisation & Food Crisis
    Andrew, thank you for pointing out the situation of farmers and the connection to food prices as concisely as you did. Like you, I also feel that the interference of speculators and others not directly involved in raising food is part of an artificial process of inflating prices on commodities that are necessary for life.

  289. August 16, 2008 at 18:19

    OK Guy’s we have started on a very first speed,but in the last 1 and 1/2 Hours we have very slow,.so let’s run very first again..
    Let’s talk about the following please.

    Do you think fat people should be made to pay more?

    Does Islam mistreat women,does it violet females rights,as a westener do you think that Islam is the best religion for females?

    Do you think that the world is unfair to Africa by bringing to book corrupt individuals,and dictators like Mugabe?

  290. August 16, 2008 at 18:22

    Can I ask a question?

    Why are people bolding things? I’m sorry to say but it makes the blog look really, really untidy and all I can see it doing is distracting for new, potential posters.

    Just wanted to add my 2 cents worth.

  291. 293 Shirley
    August 16, 2008 at 18:22

    Security in Iraq
    I found partial answers to questions that I had regarding security for religious pilgrims in Iraq. It seems that the focus of security efforts has been urban and more focused on pilgrimage venues. People travelling the open road are still open to attack. They do have female officials who are searching women. This is something that I considered to be obvious. Something that concerned me somewhat was this: Posters of Shiite religious leaders were confiscated for fear they might provoke attacks by followers of rival clerics, and mobile phones were banned because they could be used to trigger bombs. I certainly understand the concern. It does take away a couple of important factors for pilgrims. As a spectator who catches glimpses of these events through news footage, I enjoy seeing the faces of my `ulama (Islamic scholars). Obviously, that’s just incidental, and we can live without it. It was nice, though, while it lasted. The seizure of cell phones could pose problems for those who come as families. I am not sure how things work in Iraq. In the States, though, when we are at gender-segregated mosques, men and women will co-ordinate times to leave for home at night as well as who will monitor the children by communicating with cell phones. Indeed, some families have children who are old enough to be responsible for the conveyance of messages but yet young enough to get away with going from the women’s side to the men side and vice versa. However, not everyone is thus blessed. Also, cementing your logistical arrangements means that even if someone falls ill or some other unforeseen unpleasantry arises, there is little that can be done to accommodate it.

    Number of words: 286

  292. 294 Shirley
    August 16, 2008 at 18:25

    Religious Extremism
    Bob, you said, “I think that moderate Islam needs to become more proactive when it comes to condemning the fanatics.”

    I noted the location of the WHYS discussion on Fighting Islamist Extremism so that I could refer back to it in future. Now is one of those futuristic moments. I don’t think, though, that I got around to posting there some of the links that I recently found on the myth of the silent Muslim support for terrorism. On TP 15 July, around post #120, I slapped the following links to the blog with some sarcastic comments.
    Muslims condemning terrorism and
    Myth of no Muslim Condemnations

    The second link also contains an argument about whether the average Muslim even has a duty to go about parroting off condemnations of terrorism everywhere he goes. The argument rather resonated with me.

    Number of words: 140

  293. 295 Amy
    August 16, 2008 at 18:26

    I have a question for my Muslim friends. What are the prevailing thoughts on using fertility drugs to conceive a child? I ask this because of this article:


    I am just curious!!

  294. August 16, 2008 at 18:26

    @ Lubna
    we haven’t heard From Zeinab so far?..What is Up?

  295. 297 Vijay
    August 16, 2008 at 18:35

    Turkey sounds good, it is a popular tourist destination.
    I did have a little problem at Istanbul Airport security at the boarding gate,they made me take off my shoes ,jacket, belt and trousers in front of all the passengers,the guys with the machine guns found it quite funny.
    @ Julie P
    Sorry for the mistake regarding your name.
    What I noticed was that people lived separately, went to different schools and also shopped at different malls so if that wasn’t segregation I don’t what it was.
    What did impress me was the MARTA,integrated bus and light rail..

  296. 298 Shirley
    August 16, 2008 at 18:40

    East African Food
    Salam. Do you know how to cook? Can you share recipes? There are some East African dishes that I just cannot get enough of, but I can hardly describe them, much less name them.

  297. 299 Dennis
    August 16, 2008 at 18:47

    @ Lubna: How are you in Baghdad! [where is Zainab]…

    I see that we are getting very closed to the 300 messages!


  298. 300 Amy
    August 16, 2008 at 18:48


    In Portland, we also have a great public transportation system as well. It’s called MAX. Hopefully you can someday take advantage of it. I am sorry about what happened to you in Istanbul. I do know that here in the States if they need a more extensive “search”, they generally take you to a private room and it is done well before you get to the gate.

  299. 301 Amy
    August 16, 2008 at 18:49


    I think that Zainab is having some internet issues. I do send her my best though. On another topic, I tried to leave you a comment on your blog. I hope it worked!

  300. 302 Dennis
    August 16, 2008 at 18:51

    @ Vijay:

    In Syracuse, New York, Where i will be returning to on 31 August 2008…To attend Onondaga Community College, for the Fall Semester 2008….

    We have limited public transportation: CENTRO


  301. 303 Julie P
    August 16, 2008 at 18:51


    Personally, I live in a well integrated area of the city. I live among blacks, Brazilian and Indian immigrants, and whites. However, there are strong demographics of races living in the same enclaves. I think a lot of it has to do with the olden days of segregation and what occurred after the Civil War, along with like attracts like.

    As for MARTA, we need far more light rail than we have. It hardly reaches enough areas of the city. MARTA and pubic transportation is extremely controversial here.

    I’m out of here for a while. I have stuff to do.

  302. August 16, 2008 at 18:53

    @ Will Rhodes
    don’t worry how we write-the most important factor is get out our message across the globe
    @ Army
    I will refer you to lubna to answer your query,i am sorry I don’t quite understand it.
    @ Dannis
    We are a bout to break you’r record of BPNO.19 .I am sure will Exceed the 500 comments before tommorrow.
    @ Shirley
    I am very poor in cooking..I am only good at eating delicious meals prepared by my loving sister Saadia.

  303. August 16, 2008 at 18:56

    @ Army
    Thank you for visiting my blog http://www.abdiloveskenya.wordpress.com

    I really appreciate that.please keep at my blog from time to time many thanks..

  304. August 16, 2008 at 18:58

    Kenya in Beijing-China
    Kenya is on the threshold of its best Olympic performance ever, if athletics results registered in the National Stadium and swimming in Aquatics Centre are any measure.

    Pamela Jelimo and Janeth Jepkosgei won their 800m heats decisively yesterday to move into today’s semi-finals, as Jason Dunford became the first African south of Sahara and north of River Limpopo to reach an Olympic swimming final.

    Did you’r perform well?..

  305. August 16, 2008 at 19:00

    Do we really need councillors in our system of governance?
    Most of our civic leaders were elected on the account of their ability to wag tongues about improving our living environment and service delivery.

    On the contrary, they seem to be accusing us of excluding them from the ongoing Olympics carnival in Beijing, where they would be representing the country better in wrestling, boxing and discus disciplines.

    I mean, how else does one explain the councillors’ penchant for hurling chairs at each other and exchanging vicious blows as a means of engaging in debate

  306. August 16, 2008 at 19:04

    @ Army
    I have just read your sweet and kind comments in my weblog http://www.abdiloveskenya.wordpress.com
    I can confirm to you that all you’r wishes and my friends in orogon will be granted..they are still more to come on my website about our culture and heritage,our countries photos,our people and latest news in the country…

  307. August 16, 2008 at 19:06

    Kenyans in the US bask in Obama’s spotlight .

    Does this ring a bell? Presumptive presidential candidate Barack Obama’s father was from Kenya. And his wife was from Kansas.

    This interesting coincidence has thrust the family of Mr Ng’eno, a computer engineer for US firm Perspective Software, into the spotlight.

    In the face of the excitement caused by Mr Obama, Mr Ng’eno is under scrutiny in Kansas City, with residents pointing at him as the epitome of the Illinois senator.

    So much that his two children, Madeline Chepchirchir Ng’eno-Kopp, 7, and Emeliane Chekpkoech Ng’eno-Kopp, 2, have been nicknamed Obama by residents and schoolmates.

  308. August 16, 2008 at 19:11

    It’s Good Night From Kenya..”Naenda Kulala’-I am for sleep.
    I regret,I have to go and sleep.it’s 9pm Kenyan time and I am extremely tired and exhausted as I and Andrew have been busy all day long..
    Please keep at BP.and Let’s keep on talking..as usual I will catch you 8 hours from now-tommorrow early in the morning-If you have any query/comment quote @ Abdi

  309. 311 Dennis
    August 16, 2008 at 19:13

    @ Abdi:

    No problem about breaking my record!

    Everyone has to understand, when i email Chloe Tilley! I was to leave Onondaga Community College in Syracuse, New York…

    On Friday, i was supposed to be out of residence hall by 6.00pm and my family, we had a 4-hour drive…from Syracuse, New York to Madrid, St. Lawrence County in New York…

    I knew i would not make it before 18.30GMT, so that is why, i had some extra help…..


  310. 312 Dennis
    August 16, 2008 at 19:17

    Sorry for not being around, this weekend!

    I am currently at home…we are having problems with the

  311. 313 Katharina in Ghent
    August 16, 2008 at 19:19

    Hi everyone,

    Thank you all for wishing well for my son. Well, after an afternoon nap he’s now eating crackers and some soup, so I hope it’s just a 24-hour thing. (No fever)

    @ Andrew:

    When I’m moderating and not much happens, I clean the house… That way I’m not too far from the computer and not desperately waiting for some action, especially since many of the BP contributers are permanent moderators like myself and don’t need to be approved. I have to say that this made the whole BP much easier, the first time I did it (BP #3) I was much more glued to the screen – and we collected about 180 comments over the whole weekend, not one night!

  312. 314 Dennis
    August 16, 2008 at 19:20

    @ Public transportation:

    When i return to Syracuse at the end of the month: Centro bus services provides the CNY [Central New York]….

    Here is the link:

    and please have a look at the schedule and i will try
    to answer any questions!


  313. 315 Dennis
    August 16, 2008 at 19:22

    @ Kathi:

    Thanks for helping me out!

    That is what I did!!! When i have not comments to put thru the system! I was unpacking my stuff and when i went out to go grocery shopping…i just put out the word for another moderator!


  314. 316 Jamily5
    August 16, 2008 at 19:22

    discussing assimilation:
    “making an effort,” is subjective.
    And, who decides how valiant the “effort is?”
    @Julie P.
    Thanks for answering Abdi’s question.
    What a strange and morbid question: 282!

    HAH. I did not even notice the “bold.”

    I am sorry for your experience! How humiliating. Once I had to be wanded, but I was taken into a semisecluded area and wanded by a female.
    They did not make me remove my clothes, but they were considering it. It was embarrassing enough.

    I’m going to check my mail.

  315. 317 Shirley
    August 16, 2008 at 19:39

    Dino Computer, Page 2
    At the bottom of this article on science education in Iran, it says that there is a part two. The link didn’t come through when I downloaded the article, though. Does page 2 exist? What is its link? Thank you all so much.

  316. 318 Jamily5
    August 16, 2008 at 19:45

    So, what is the ratio of moderators to non-moderators?
    Maybe my messages are the only ones that need approving!
    (only joking, I’m sure – smile)

  317. 319 Jamily5
    August 16, 2008 at 19:48

    Time zones:
    The first thing that I had to do is to find out how far ahead the BBC was in time.
    For Indiana, the BBC is five hours ahead of me.
    That would make Abdi seven hours ahead.
    I don’t know if I am the farthest behind, or not.
    I hated it, at first, because I could not stop in the middle of my day to watch/listen to the WHYS live.
    I still can’t — at least not on a regular basis.
    But, I am glad for the blog.

  318. 320 Venessa
    August 16, 2008 at 19:50

    Jamily ~

    There are quite a few of us that are moderators. Probably 1/2 the regulars on this blog. In addition to monitoring the TP or BP’s there are the other pages that have posts still being submitted as well. You’re not the only one we have to keep a keen watch on…. (wink, smile)

  319. 321 Shirley
    August 16, 2008 at 19:54

    Islam & Fertility Treatments
    Amy, I caught he same headline about the Egyptian woman giving birth to sextuplets while I was browsing Yahoo News. It sounded interesting, though I didn’t actually read it. An interesting book that might cover the topic of fterility treatments and the Islamic perspective on them is “Marriage and Morals in Islam” by Mawlana Sayyid Muhammad Rizvi. He is the congregational leader for the larger Shia Islamic mosque in Toronto, Canada; and his Islamic scholarship tends to remain within the fatwa of Ayatullah Sistani. Chapter five of the book is entitled “New Techniques in Human Reproduction.” Keep in mind, of course, that “new” refers to technologies developed in the 1990s. The book is available online at http://www.al-islam.org/m_morals and chapter five is at http://www.al-islam.org/m_morals/chap5.htm . The basis of any Islamic ruling regarding family planning is the utmost respect for life and its potential. Check out the chapter on contraceptive methods to gain a better understanding in that regard. Let me know if you come upon questions in your reading or need anything beyond what that book provides. I am more than willing to walk you through it, having struggled with searching for information on topics unfamiliar to me.

  320. 322 Venessa
    August 16, 2008 at 20:06

    Jamily ~

    Time zones: London is 8 hours ahead of me. Fortunately I sit in front of a computer for my job (travel has tapered off the last couple of years). I either stream audio when I am working from my home office or listen on the radio when I go in to the office. Lucky for me I rarely miss WHYS unless I have meetings or a prior commitment during the time of day the program is on.

    I’ve been listening to NPR for quite awhile and was captivated by WHYS for some time before I started contributing. Admittedly this is the first and almost the only blog I am ever on. I discovered it after there was a debate on WHYS that got me fired up sometime earlier this year. I’ve been obsessed since.

  321. 323 Shirley
    August 16, 2008 at 20:07

    Treatment of Women in Islam and by Muslims
    Salam, Abdi
    I am certain that you are aware of the vast difference between how Muslims are taught to treat women and what actually happens on the ground in Muslim Street. There is a listing of Shia Islamic texts on women and Islam at the Ahlul Bayt Digital Library Project’s section on women. One that I am hoping to look at more closely is called A New Perspective: Women in Islam. It is by Mawlana Sayyid Mustafa Qazwini and Fatma Saleh. Mawlana Sayyid Qazwini leads the larger Shia Islamic mosque in the Detroit area of Michigan.

    Some of the issues raised when people discuss Islam and women are the hijab and clothing requirements in general, gender segregation, polygamy, legal testimony requirements, and inheritance laws. In countries with a majority Muslim population, women tend to struggle against domestic violence and for educational opportunities and children’s rights. Women in Muslim countries also have economic concerns, because so many Muslims live in poverty-stricken areas of the world and feel the pain of not being able to feed their families well or clothe them sufficiently. It is true that the greater strain is on the Muslim male, who generally feels it below his dignity not to be able to provide for the fmaily. However, women also suffer emotionally at seeing their families suffer. Movements that receive much media spotlight are efforts to allow women to pray intermingled with men or to lead prayers, to increase the number of female Islamic scholars, and to broaden women’s marriage/divorce rights. Not all of these movements concern themselves with Islamic rulings concerning worship or marital laws.

    There was a discussion on WHYS back in April on the treatment of women by Muslims.

  322. 324 Jamily5
    August 16, 2008 at 20:09

    Both stories:
    the teachers carrying handguns and the story about the woman swearing in Walmart were in Texas.

  323. 325 Shirley
    August 16, 2008 at 20:16

    Immigration & Assimilation
    There has been no word on what is the American culture that some want immigrants to assimilate with. What are examples of American culture? In what ways are immigrants assimilating or not assimilating with American culture?

  324. 326 Jamily5
    August 16, 2008 at 20:17

    you can actually get the BBC on your radio?
    I can’t even get NPR — unless you count that classical station that barely posts NPR programs. And, I still need to position the radio just right — keeping my hand forever on the end of the antenna.
    But, AM talk radio… …
    Now, that is coming through loud and clear.
    And – as opposed to NPR, my hand is forever on the offswitch.

  325. 327 Shirley
    August 16, 2008 at 20:19

    Just to note that in addition to the discussion on a future white minority in the U.S., WHYS also had a discussion on whether American culture enriches other cultures back in July. Perhaps I shall have a look at it again. I think that some WHSYayers did posit on what constitutes American culture.

  326. 328 Jamily5
    August 16, 2008 at 20:21

    Shirley, to get a better understanding (since the whole Turkey Hijab conflict) I tried reading Benazir Bhutto’s “Reconciliation and Islam,”
    But, about 50% through the book, I realize that I was more confused than ever.
    I think that she did an accurate job explaining the difs between Suni and Shia and the different factions of both: as well as the conflicts between both.
    But, when it came to women and their actions/rights/etc, I just had to put it down because I was getting too many conflicting messages.

  327. 329 Katharina in Ghent
    August 16, 2008 at 20:23

    @ Venessa and Jamily:

    I’m one hour later than WHYS, so I usually listen to the show while I’m cooking (7-8pm my time), To me, the Talking Points are passing me by because they basically happen while I’m asleep, and when I’m at work most of the action has already happened and the WHYS team comes up with some specific topics. That’s also the reason why I never moderate the TPs, I’m not Nelson or Bob, I really do need my 8-9 hours of eyes shut. Just like Venessa, I’ve been listening to the show for a long time before I finally started looking into the blog an got hooked – and it’s also my only blog, I’m not even good with facebook (couldn’t care less, actually).

  328. 330 Jamily5
    August 16, 2008 at 20:30

    I am glad that your son is doing better!
    Sometimes it can be quite a chore caring for sick children.
    They are usually a bit cranky, also.

    I am 5hours early. So, by the time I get home at about 4:00 or 5:00 my time, the whys community is going to bed.
    Then, I have to catch up.
    I tried blogging, but I just could not find an accessible blogging area.
    I have thought about it.
    But, until then, I will just write here and even after, I will still write here because there is more interaction.

  329. 331 Venessa
    August 16, 2008 at 20:30

    Jamily ~

    NPR is on AM & FM stations here in Portland. I do find reception trouble in some places but not often. That’s a shame you can’t get a clear signal! Have you tried streaming the audio on your computer? You can go to the NPR website and get a 24 hour audio stream. I have mine set up so that OPB is the streaming default but you can set it to other locations.

  330. 332 Jamily5
    August 16, 2008 at 20:36

    What would that mean?
    If I streamed it all the time, then, could I change a station, if I wanted?
    I have downloaded this software that allows me to listent to the BBC in (I think) streaming audio.
    I say I think because I don’t know lots about it.
    It will play the radio stations, live. But, the prob is still that by the time I get to listen, the night shows are on.
    I am trying that podcast thing.
    I will probably like it, I just can’t contribute immediately.
    Tell me more about streaming NPR and exactly what that would involve.

  331. 333 Venessa
    August 16, 2008 at 20:38

    Katharina ~

    The show is on at 10am here for me. I have a tendency to be up around 5a on weekdays and am able to catch up on what I missed over night. Most of the time the show for the day hasn’t been posted yet. Sometimes I wish the program did air around 6p or 7p so that my interruptions would be a lot less. I always give my boss a hard time when he schedules a meeting during WHYS.

  332. August 16, 2008 at 20:38

    Hi again gang ! ;-)… Tonight is a very big night for Muslim Shiites, so is tomorrow, so I won’t be able to participate that much, so sorry for that…
    My dearest Amy : Hi sweetie… In fact I am the only one at home who’s advocating travelling to Turkey… The rest of the family does feel more excited about travelling to Kurdistan next year Inshallah… But there remains one crucial problem, finance… Travelling is extremely expensive in Iraq, even to Kurdistan which is obviously the North of Iraq… In fact the plans of my two aunts of travelling to Saudi Arabia inorder to perform Al Umra Islamic religious ritual this year were cancelled in the last minute because of financial difficulties… So please Amy darling and all of you guys, don’t you guys worry about me not being able to attend the WHYS congress that you’re guys planning for… May be I’ll be able to take part via phone Inshallah… For those of you guys asking about our beloved Zainab (especially my most two beloved friends Dennis and Abdi) , she’s currently facing some internet problems as Amy darling has just said , and she’s saying a very big Hi to all of you guys…
    And my dearest Vijay, I am really so sorry for not being able to answer your question today my good friend, because I really have to go right now… Inshallah I’ll answer it tomorrow, you have my word ! ;-)… With my love… Yours forever, Lubna…

  333. 335 Dennis
    August 16, 2008 at 20:53

    To anyone who can answer this question: What is Inshallah?

    @ Zainab: We all hope that you can get your internet working soon….

    @ WHYS Congress: i think it can work on the theory! i will consult my calendar….

    @ Lubna: Enjoy your celebrations….


  334. 336 Dennis
    August 16, 2008 at 20:56

    @ Venessa:

    it is not a good thing: to give the boss any trouble about making
    meetings during whys! 🙂

    @ my reasons: because during the summer! after classes at 12.30pm, i would if i need to get groceries, i would catch the bus from the college to downtown and catch a different to Walmart SuperCentre….


  335. 337 Shirley
    August 16, 2008 at 21:05

    Olympic Sportsmanship
    In another blatant display of respectful regard for other players, one of the American beach volleyball players helped one of the Spanish players to his feet after the two collided and the Spaniard fell to the sand. Moments like this make my heart flutter. :=) I’ll look later for news articles inshallah, but the match results will be posted here.

  336. 338 Amy
    August 16, 2008 at 21:24


    I believe that Inshallah means “God willing.” I am sure that Shirley, Lubna or another one of our Muslim friends can verify that.

  337. 339 Venessa
    August 16, 2008 at 21:34

    Dennis ~

    It’s in spirited fun that I give my boss a hard time. We throw back a few pints together from time to time as well. I have a very flexible job and I am thankful that I can contribute to this blog & listen to the program regularly.

  338. 340 Julie P
    August 16, 2008 at 21:38

    This is cool. Twin pandas were born in Beijing during the Olympics. Here’s video:


  339. 341 Venessa
    August 16, 2008 at 21:38

    Jamily ~

    I may not be the best technical guru to help you out but try the link below to find an NPR station locally for you to listen to online. I also like that if there is ever a report that I miss or I am interrupted while I am listening I can find the link and listen to it.


    Typically most radio stations have a streaming option. If there is a station that you want to listen to at your computer I suggest finding their particular website to see what they have for streaming options. I have mine bookmarked so that if I want to “change stations” I can do so quickly. Let me know if this helps.

  340. 342 Venessa
    August 16, 2008 at 21:45

    Well all, my husband is beckoning for me to join him at his brother’s house. He often spends weekends there flying is remote control helicopter. I always enjoy the alone time but I think this is the 3rd weekend in a row I have not made an appearance to say hello to my in-laws. It’s a bit of a drive but I’m sure their house will offer a little shelter from the sweltering heat in Portland this weekend. Time for me to get my furry kiddos (cats) into the house and get out of here.

    I look forward to catching up later tonight or tomorrow. It depends on how many gin & tonics I suck down today if I will make it back this evening. 😉

  341. 343 Jamily5
    August 16, 2008 at 22:04

    Thanks Vanessa,
    That is enough to get me started.

  342. 344 Julie P
    August 16, 2008 at 22:09


    Get started at what? Playing with toy helicopters or drinking? 🙂

  343. 345 Dennis
    August 16, 2008 at 22:28

    @ Venessa:


    @ Amy:
    Thanks for your note!


  344. 346 Shirley
    August 16, 2008 at 22:33

    The Wikipedia article on the Culture of the United States has a fine introductory statement that summarises quite nicely the various aspects of American culture: The development of the culture of the United States of America — music, cinema, dance, architecture, literature, poetry, cuisine and the visual arts — has been marked by a tension between two strong sources of inspiration: European sophistication and domestic originality. The article also has this list:
    Comic books
    Visual arts

    Perhaps the next time there is a quesiton of American culture, I will be able to reference that article.

  345. 347 Jamily5
    August 16, 2008 at 22:38

    @Julie P.,
    No whirling propellers or whirling heads for me.

  346. 348 Shirley
    August 16, 2008 at 22:44

    Women & Islam
    Jamily, what parts of Benazir Bhutto’s “Reconciliation and Islam” were contradictory to each other in terms of the rights of women in Islam? I have not yet read that book. I did not even know that Bhutto had written a book.

    Dennis, the word “inshallah” does indeed mean “God willing.”

  347. 349 Dennis
    August 16, 2008 at 22:51

    Thanks Shirley for the message!

    I can now use when i talk to Lubna, Zainab and the rest of my dear friends….


  348. 350 Dennis
    August 16, 2008 at 22:52

    @ Julie P:

    Drinking! Drink in MODERATION….And do not drink and drive!


  349. 351 Jamily5
    August 16, 2008 at 22:55

    Okay, shirley, so summarizing: American culture is embracing European ideas and infusing our own twist to them?
    So, ppl who don’t embrace European ideas, are they “not assimilating?”
    My whole point in this discussion that I started with — I thought to be Bryan, (but I could have been wrong), was to define what exactly “assimilation,” entaled and how one might be seen as “unamerican.”
    (okay, I have to stop using words that I can’t spell)(smile)
    Anyway, On the Friday show and blog, there was quite a bit of resentment against foreigners who “could not” or “did not” assimilate into American culture.
    Besides the language: and I still note that “making an effort,” is subjective,
    I want to know what most people are angry about.
    What problem do Americans have with immigrants: as long as they are “making an effort,” to learn English and (of course) they are here legally?
    Would there be certain cultural shifts if “white America — which includes Europeans) would happen to be the minority?
    What are they?
    Can an Asian, Latin American or African come to America, still hold on to their culture’s traditions and customs and still be “American?”
    How much of the customs etc does one have to neglect in order for people to perceive them as “American?”

    Here is an example:
    Many people in other parts of the world do not share the same propensity for promptness. We know that when we visit said countries, As Americans (and maybe Canadians, Europeans and Australians as well, I don’t know) must strengthen their virtue of patience.
    So, when these people come to America, they must change their awareness and concepts of time.
    But, is this value about time “american,” or “Western?”
    I know many Americans who do not opperate on a corporate clock and are routinely late to appointments, etc.
    If this value is seen as “American,” then those who do not share it are… … by default, “un-american.”
    You understand what my problem is with assimilation, integration, etc.

  350. 352 Dennis
    August 16, 2008 at 23:07

    Vote for the most Regular and loyal listner of WHYS.

    1.Lubna in Baqdad-Iraq.
    2.Bob in Quesnland-Australia.
    3.Katherina in Ghent Belgium.

    [i don’t know who to vote for]…..


  351. August 16, 2008 at 23:15

    @ Bryan (forgive the misspelling earlier.)

    Whatever the justification. Lands held traditionally by that of Muslim ideologies are being occupied by forces of other ideologies. Call it “religion”, call it “patriotism”, call it what ever you want, but they are all forms of ideologies. As I understand it, Farsi doesn’t have a word that translates nicely into “civilian” as we understand it. I am not sure about Arabic. We are all representatives of our ideologies.

    A even more “better thing to do” was to not prop Saddam Hussein up in the first place. You gloss over it like it is a trivial fact of the matter. The problem is that in that area of the world we needed a single government ruler to press our own western ideals. In order to rule a group of religious base extended family structure that put more merit in what their religious leader said then their president, you needed someone who was feared. Saddam was not pick in hopes he wasn’t ruthless, he was picked because to do what the west needed him to be ruthless. Otherwise you were never going to get these tribal structures to agree on anything completely. The USSR was equally complicit in this kind of activity.

    Well it worked, kind of. Lost of tribes were killed, embraced western structure, or saw the light. However some tribes, and parts of other, saw the western push and acceptance as an “abomination to their religion and the people who submitted to it not worthy. Thus, “extremism” was formed. Left alone from people trying to force their governing structure to be something it isn’t a balance would have been struck. However, all of the “human rights violations” we know to be part of that culture would also have been sustained.

    What right have we to tell them how to live, raise their children, and worship? What rigth have we to support their enemies in order to gain access to the land?

  352. 354 Jamily5
    August 16, 2008 at 23:29

    Benazir Bhutto has written several books.
    She does not contradict herself, just other muslims that I know.
    First Benazir Bhutto talks about the extremists and how they have adulterated the Quran.
    She talks about inner and outer jihad and the two passages that are so misconstrued when talking about slaying unbelievers.\
    The one thing that I don’t like is that she never gives total reference. For example: she talks about the 2nd sword verse:
    “Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor nor do they prohibit what Allah and his messenger have prohibitted, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the book; until they pay the tax in acknowledgement of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.”
    She claims that this only refers to those who reject “Allah” or “God,” outright. So, other monotheist religions are included (barring the discussion on Christianity as a polytheistic religion).
    And she states that in a later verse, she reports that the offenders should be fought only until they cease hostility. this implies that when the offenders are not hostile, then there should be no more violence.
    So, some of her book is quite interesting.
    But… …

  353. 355 Luz Ma from Mexico
    August 16, 2008 at 23:50

    Hello everyone!
    WOW!!! I am amazed… 353 comments… and still a day and a half to go!!! Congrats to our moderators Andrew and Abdi 😉

    I haven´t been able to participate in WHYS in the last couple of days… I have been very busy at work… Being executive assistant of a senator is more demanding than taking care of a newborn. Today we had a political party event and I had to take care of everything concerning logistics (his arrival, his place in the presidium, etc.)… I had a manic week with all sort of problems coming toward me, so, obviously, something was meant to slip from my mind and I forgot to tell him that the invitation said “formal attire”. Before he left his home I called him and then he changed to a suit. He was running late, I had to hold his place and … at the end, the governor appeared with informal attire and everyone took off their ties. He lectured me about the importance of being in everything …. Blah!! I knew that is the nature of the job, I cannot complain…

    So here is an insight of my new life… it is manic… but it is fun. It is better than being unemployed, so, as I said before, I cannot complain.

  354. 356 Luz Ma from Mexico
    August 16, 2008 at 23:52

    @pesos at Circle K stores

    Here in Mexico most of the stores and comercials business take U.S. dollars. It is most common in the towns near the borders and the turistic places (Cancun, Acapulco, Puerto Vallarta, etc.). I don´t see the problem… but I can imagine the reaction of many Americans about this.

  355. 357 Luz Ma from Mexico
    August 16, 2008 at 23:55

    @WHYS Congress

    I am in!!! I would love to go to any of the places that you have proposed… my only problems are the money and the time 😉 Well… I would look a way to work around them…hehe!!!

  356. 358 Jamily5
    August 16, 2008 at 23:59

    She writes:
    “Islamic precepts require women to dress modestly, but do not ask that we cover up in any specific manner. In fact, the veil or the Burqa, the all enveloping chador have more to do with tribal traditions…. … “Say to the believing men that they cast down their eyes and guard their private parts. that is purer for them. surely, Allah is aware of what they do. And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty.””
    She says that this verse is gender nutral and gives men the same directives. thus, women should not have to cover any more than men do. “The best veil is the veil in the eyes.”
    She talks about women having the same religious rights as men.
    But, in many countries women are not encouraged to go to mosque.
    The Quran does not prohibit women going out alone, says Bhutto. But, many people say that Islam dictates that women should not go out alone and that they should be accompanied by male relatives or older females.

    There are many more.
    But, I have already written long posts.
    Hey, Shirley, if you have not read the book, we could read it together: a bit at a time and discuss it.

  357. 359 Jamily5
    August 17, 2008 at 00:05

    Sounds like it is quite draining, yet exciting.
    Yes, you will get blamed for things and berated by bosses.
    But, it sounds like you still pulled it off.
    I bet the money is a welcome pleasure, also.
    How is your family adjusting?
    I know that sometimes, it can be quite an adjustment for children and older parents, alike.

  358. 360 Jamily5
    August 17, 2008 at 00:11

    Countries and Visas:
    Maybe someone can shed some light on this subject.
    As I understand it:
    The USA, UK, Canada, Australia, and many islands as well as many countries in Europe don’t require visas to visit. I think that they have an agreement with each other.
    But, I guess that you have to be from one of these countries that hold the agreement.
    then, I was reading that you don’t need a visa to go from Iran to Turkey. So, is there a country or place that doesn’t require visas at all?
    I mean, if different countries have agreements with other countries to lower the cost of visiting by not requiring a visa, then, maybe there is a country that falls into a “nutral” category.
    does this make sese or have I been up for too long?
    Maybe I am not explaining myself well enough.

  359. 361 Jamily5
    August 17, 2008 at 00:15

    I think that our moderators have went to sleep.
    Luz’s comments have been approved, but my last four are still:
    Where is the ensomniac?
    I might be lon-winded, but I did not think that I could put a moderator to sleep.

  360. 362 Jamily5
    August 17, 2008 at 00:19

    Okay, I checked from the first comment that I made which is still “waiting,” to the last one.
    The time has been 44minutes.
    And, my email is up, if a moderaator wants to chastize me for my lengthy posts.
    As it stands:
    no chastizement and no moderation.
    Abdi? Andrew?

  361. 363 Luz Ma from Mexico
    August 17, 2008 at 00:20

    I hope your son is feeling better 😉

    Thanks for saying I am a loyal WHYSer… I try participate in the blog when I am at work, but the past week was terrible!!! Listen to the program it is more difficult because I am 5 hours behing London time, so the program airs at noon, which is the busiest time of my day. Maybe I´ll have luck the upcomming week, because my boss is going to be out of town 🙂

  362. 364 Rick
    August 17, 2008 at 00:25

    @ Luz Ma
    while working in a tourist shop in Canada, the most unwelcome question from Yanks was “Is that price in funny money or real money?” I found it offensive and always replied real and let them make the choice whether to pay 15% more or not. Most of the time real turned out to be Canadian.

  363. 365 Luz Ma from Mexico
    August 17, 2008 at 00:26

    Jamily… my comments were approved instantly because I have moderation rights. I approved your four last comments 😉

    I think I am the only moderator around… probably everyone went to sleep. I have to go to my mother´s house in an hour, so I hope someone else is around when I leave.

  364. 366 Jamily5
    August 17, 2008 at 00:27

    something must be wrong!
    Bryan posted at 11:15,
    I posted at 11:29, but my message is still awaiting moderation.
    Luz posted at
    Her messages are showing up.
    then, my later posts at 12:05,… …
    up to my post at
    have not yet been approved.
    Have I fallen into a black hole?
    Hey, is there a “down zone,” that I just was not aware of?

    Maybe the BBC has a down zone from 11:30 to 12:30 or something.
    someone took it a minute earlier (my first post was at 11:29) and Luz could have moderator’s status.
    Okay, I think that I have solved it.
    Well, I am off to read.
    Sorry so many posts.
    I wonder if I am the only one posting.????

  365. 367 Rick
    August 17, 2008 at 00:27

    so the answer is to let them pay in US$ but just give them a real crappy exchange rate. probably happening anyway

  366. 368 Jamily5
    August 17, 2008 at 00:31

    Hi Luz,
    I thought that one moderator did not rest until another relieved.
    So, sometimes there was overlap.
    Well, not really a problem, I thought that something serious had happened.
    I might as well join the moderators in their slumber.. or at least get some reading done.
    Thanks for your help.

  367. 369 Dennis
    August 17, 2008 at 00:32

    @ Kathi in Ghent:

    Please, i hope your son feels better…i had the 24 hours flu on friday!


  368. 370 Julie P
    August 17, 2008 at 00:33

    @Luz Ma,

    Welcome back to the fold! It is good to see you are enjoying your new job. I thought it was keeping you busy.

    I hope to see you at a WHYS Congress meeting, but you know Monterey is not all that far from Atlanta, perhaps one day we could meet. I’ve been considering vacations for next year and I am considering seeing the Mayan ruins, or Machu Picchu.

  369. 371 Luz Ma from Mexico
    August 17, 2008 at 00:37

    @Jamily about my work

    It is exciting and draining… I am learning a lot (like always checking the dress code fo any event..hahaha!!!) My boss is nice, but in the end a politician, so that kind of little things are very important to him and he gets mad if I failed to tell him. It is understandable…

    But I don´t plan to stay forever in politics. I am looking for a career in an international human rights organization. I am waiting for the results of a UN national competitive examination that I took early this year. The results will be publicized in September, and if I pass the exam I will go to an interview in New York. If I get selected after that interview I will be placed in the rooster of available candidates for open positions in the UN. So I am looking forward to September…

    About your question about my family… I am married and have two daughters (7 and 3 years old respectively). They are doing fine, they are accostumed to a working mom. I took time off my studies/work when they were babies (their first 18 months of life respectively). I have a wonderful husband who shares domestic and parental responsibilities with me. We are a great time in that respect. My mom also helps a lot. She recently divorced my father, so my daughters company in the afternoons are very refreshing for her.

  370. August 17, 2008 at 00:39

    Hi All

    Andrew here. Just past 9 am only had about 5 hours sleep and up already. I hoped Abdi would be online at the moment or another moderator to cover a slight emergency.

    Have to make a quick dash to the hospital to check on a relative this morning, hope to be back as soon as possible and get back into the blog later on.

  371. 373 Julie P
    August 17, 2008 at 00:41


    While studying abroad I was in Edinburgh for two days. I was walking along a street near the Royal Mile when I fell into a conversation with two elderly women. The conversation turned to currency, neither of them had every seen American money, so I showed them mine. They both said the same thing, “That’s not real money! It looks like monopoly money.” It’s really interesting what other people think of currency that is not theirs and what they are used to using.

  372. August 17, 2008 at 00:43

    Hi Jan, time zones can be cruel and it’s not always possible to overlap. It also seems to be all or nothing with posts, all at once or an hour between,

  373. 375 Amy
    August 17, 2008 at 00:44

    Luz Ma,

    I think our daughters would have fun together. Mine are 8 and 4. Maybe if the WHYS congress doesn’t happen soon, everyone can plan “regional” ones. We can have a North American one with you, those of us from the States and those from Canada (and anyone else who cares to join us). Good luck with your exam results.

  374. 376 Amy
    August 17, 2008 at 00:46


    I’ll be around for about another hour and then I am off to a baseball game. I’ll keep checking for posts and hopefully another moderator will be around to help.

  375. 377 Jonathan
    August 17, 2008 at 00:49

    A hearty howdy to all from me in a cool, gray San Francisco. It’s funny to see the speculation about my hours; maybe I’m a consortium of three people on different continents, or a robot thus far passing the Turing test. I slept until 2:00 this afternoon so please don’t worry that I’m not getting enough sleep. It’s just not always at night.

  376. 378 Jonathan
    August 17, 2008 at 00:50


    Do you mean just fictional moviews and TV–dramas, comedies, rather than news and documentaries?

  377. 379 Luz Ma from Mexico
    August 17, 2008 at 00:53

    You are welcome 😉

    Indeed we are not that far from each other. I have only being in Atlanta during flight connections. I hope to visit you there soon!!!! I would love to meet you in person.

    And for your vacation plans… Mayan ruins are the best! I recommend the town called Mérida. It is nice, not expensive (unlike Cancun, Playa del Carmen and the likes), it is near Chichen Itza and Uxmal. Also, near Mérida is the Celestum Biosphere Reserve, where you can spot flamingos. Celestun’s ecosystem is unique because of a combination of fresh water from Celestun “river” and salt water from Gulf of Mexico.Very nice tour 😉

    If you want to know more about Mérida tell me. My sister´s in-laws are from there.

  378. 380 viola
    August 17, 2008 at 00:56


    Here in Canada, the media bends over backwards to be fair to Canadians who are Muslim and to be fair to the Islamic religion. As a case in point, there is a very popular CBC situation comedy called “Little Mosque on the Prairie.” I’ve watched it a lot and enjoy it because the stories and actors are good. Each week the show highlights some aspect of Islamic culture that creates conflict either within the Muslim community in this fictional Canadian town or between the Muslim community and the rest of the town’s residents.

    It’s all done with great good humor. For instance, in one episode, the conflict is between a “by the book” Muslim and his daughter at Halloween, a Christian holiday featuring pumpkins, goblins, spooks, and “trick or treating” when the children dress up in costumes and knock on people’s doors and demand treats. When the father goes to fetch his daughter from the school Halloween party, the little kids go, “Wow. Your costume is great. You look just like a terrorist.” He then gets into the spirit of it all and starts jokingly chasing the little kids around, hollering things like “Look out. The big bad terrorist is going to get you.” They all squeal and run away and have a great time. And so, the traditional Muslim father softens his attitude toward a harmless Christian holiday and the silliness of imagining all Muslims to be terrorists is made clear.

    Another episode was about this same father insisting his daughter, who is trying to fit in at school, wear a head scarf.

    If I would quarrel with the show at all, it does seem to me that it is written so that the Muslims are always portrayed as deeply pious, though not always traditional, and always good, while the Christian religion is portrayed as a dying religion and the Catholic priest in whose church the Muslims hold their services is always portrayed as a purely comical figure comically despairing of his parishioners’ disinterest in things religious.

    While I don’t argue that Christians are always good and pious and shouldn’t be portrayed in comical fashion, I can’t say I approve of comparing it to Islam in a situation comedy and having it always coming up short. However, the show is maturing so perhaps this slant may be corrected in some future show.

    Hopefully, the Islamic world will someday make a similar effort to portray to its citizens the positive aspects of Christianity, Judaism, and also the Western cultures in general.


  379. 381 Julie P
    August 17, 2008 at 01:01

    @Luz Ma,

    Send me an e-mail. I looked at the Mayan ruins earlier this year, but nixed them as I thought Cancun was outrageously expensive. I decided to hec with it, I’ll go and see Stonehenge instead. Hard to believe, but it was cheaper for me to go to London and then to the west of England.

  380. 382 Dennis
    August 17, 2008 at 01:54

    @ Andrew:

    i hope that your relative in hospital feels better….

    @ Amy:

    enjoy your time at the baseball game!


  381. 383 Julie P
    August 17, 2008 at 02:45


    So my brother and I in a conversation when he poses the scenario of being a plane crash. (He just flew back from Hawaii) What would you do in last moments of life? Of course, he’d drink a quart of Jack Daniels… It did make me think, what would you do with your life if you knew you weren’t going to be here much longer? Let’s say a six months to a year.

  382. 384 Shirley
    August 17, 2008 at 03:50

    Religious Extremism
    I can definitely see why you or anyone else would have been confused by Bhutto’s writings. Benazir had many great accomplishments in her lifetime, but Islamic scholarship was evidently not one of them. The Sunni Islamic scholars of the Sunni Path website have gone through two or three of the Qur’anic passages that are commonly referred to when discussing violence and Islam. There is also another article there explaining the “grater jihad.” Benazir called this the inner jihad. Islam considers non-Muslims in levels, with Christians and Jews being the closest to Muslims and atheists being the farthest. However, this differentiation among non-Muslims has no bearing on Islamic teachings regarding jihad. In some of my posts to the WHYS discussion on Islamist extremism, I explained the conditions for jihad. There is one post somewhere in the middle of the page and two more near or at the bottom.

    Number of words: 150

  383. 385 Shirley
    August 17, 2008 at 03:52

    Women & Islam
    Jamily, you quoted Benazir Bhutto: “Islamic precepts…do not ask that we cover up in any specific manner. She also claimed that the verse at 24:31 (“say to the believing women…”) was gender neutral and only requires women to cover to the same degree as men. The problem with Benazir’s reasoning is that several Islamic source-texts lay out specific guidelines for a Muslim woman’s dress. Either she was ignorant of them or wilfully ignored them. For example, the Qur’an refers to the obligation of the khimar in 24:31 – a verse that does indeed use declensions and conjugations that are specifically feminine. The verse related to men, 24:30, is shorter and requires less of men. 24:31 also specifies the obligation of loose outer clothing in 33:59. It need not be a robe or gown, but it must be loose-fitting. There is a plethora of Prophetic narrations and scholarly rulings, which constitute two other source-texts of Islam, that specify the requirements of a Muslim woman’s dress. One fine point that Benazir raises is “The best veil is the veil in the eyes.”

    Number of words: 178

  384. 386 Shirley
    August 17, 2008 at 03:54

    You also mentioned that in many countries women are not encouraged to go to mosque. This is true; and I am so blessed to be a Muslim in the States. Where such anti-Islamic restrictions exist here, they are few and far between. Prophet Muhammad allowed and even encouraged women to go to the mosques; and in the case of the two major Islamic festivals, he urged them to come, even if they had to share appropriate clothing with each other. As you have seen, Muslim-majority countries have a long way to go in terms of implementing the religious rights of women. You also mentioned that Benazir said that the Quran does not prohibit women going out alone. This is also true. Islam only forbids that a woman should be alone with a man *if* there is a fear of troublemaking or that she leave the house *against* the wishes of her husband. Islamic shari`ah does have several clauses that protect a woman from being imprisoned or abused by a thuggish husband.

    Number of words: 172

  385. 387 Dennis
    August 17, 2008 at 03:57

    @ Julie P:

    Have a big bottle of GIN AND TONIC!!!!!

    go on a great big shopping trip.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


  386. 388 Dennis
    August 17, 2008 at 03:58

    Good night! from New York…

    Currently at 380 plus comments, by the time i return….it will be over…

    Dennis 🙂

  387. 389 Shirley
    August 17, 2008 at 04:05

    Islam in the Media
    Viola, I never have understood why the Catholic Church has to take such a beating by the media. Certainly, there are faults among Catholic laypeople and clergy, but this in no way reflects on the proper beliefs or practises of Catholicism.

    Jonathan: yes, fictional portrayals and not documentaries.

  388. 390 steve
    August 17, 2008 at 04:14

    Michael Phelps. USA! USA! 8 GOLD medals.

  389. 391 Shirley
    August 17, 2008 at 04:17

    Six Months to Live
    I’d do everything in my power to move close to a good Shia Islamic mosque and try to attend as often as possible. I’d do everything possible to save aside money to donate to charity. I’d try to find any way to do Hajj, scared as I am of going to Saudi Arabia. I’d eat chocolate every day and enjoy caramel popcorn, root beer, and pizza on a very regular basis. I’d try to read as many books as possible – make a list and plor through it. I might even clean out that closet of mine.

  390. 392 Shirley
    August 17, 2008 at 04:27

    Steve, can you believe it! I am so hyped! Not only did Phelps do his thing, but Radcliffe finished the marathon in obvious pain, and Dara Torres continued her wonderful flow of sportsmanship by greeting her competitors after each race. Add to that the sportsmanship displayed by out men’s beach volleyball team member; and today was an awesome day!

  391. 393 Jonathan
    August 17, 2008 at 04:50

    @ currencies

    Given the long and huge (30%) decline in the dollar in recent years, it resembles Monopoly money in more than just appearance. Heaven help the traveler who must pay his own way abroad. Incredibly, and humiliatingly, the US dollar has fallen below the Canadian dollar, so now it’s Canadians who can insist on “real dollars.” And Luz Ma, I can’t think why any American would be disturbed to hear the dollar is used in Mexico. First, it doesn’t cost us anything, and second, we’re lucky that anyone, anywhere still accepts it.

  392. 394 Bob in Queensland
    August 17, 2008 at 05:13

    G’day all!

    A lazy and internet free start for me today!

    Regarding the acceptance of dollars, in my experience most places near the US/Canada border (on either side) will accept either currency, especially if they are the sort of business that gets a lot of tourist traffic. They usually find a way of making money out of this by fixing a pretty bad exchange rate.

  393. 395 Jonathan
    August 17, 2008 at 05:15


    Yes, that will be a happy day, when the Islamic world portrays Christians and Jews with humor and sentivity and fairness. I’m not betting the farm on ever living to see that day though. I’ve heard about “Little Mosque on the Prarie” but haven’t seen it. I’m downloading an episode right now.


    I haven’t noticed the Catholic Church “taking a beating” in the media. Some of its members, yes, and some of its former members that I’ve known personally, but media? Refresh me. Do you mean, say, “The DaVinci Code?” I also can’t think of much attention to Islam or Islamic characters in film or TV. One season of “24” comes to mind, wihere the villians were Middle Eastern. But I’ll admit to not watching much commercial TV or mass-market modern movies. I’ve often thought that Middle Easterners imagine America and Americans to be very interested (in a negative way–meddling and damaging) in their lives, afairs, and politics, etc., in a hostile sense, whreas the truth is that before 9/11 and Iraq, most Americans really hardly knew or cared about the region. I know that our foreign policy has been somewhat more involved, as in the installation of the Shah in Iran, but we’ve meddled far less there than in, say, Latin America, whose people have tolerated our interference with remarkable good humor. Sorry, I’ve strayed from the media question though.

  394. 396 Jonathan
    August 17, 2008 at 05:34


    If you’re still looking for information on listening to radio shows on the computer, I can help a bit. For a particular program, “podcast” is the best, iff they have it (look at the program’s website if there is one, and the station or network’s website, and the iTunes store, that offers a LOT of podcasts, many if not most being free).With a podcat, you download the show and play it when you like. Itunes lets you subscribe to podcasts so it delivers every episode to you. If there isn’t a podcast, you can usually find the show streaming, which is like the radio–you listen when it’s aired. There are programs to capture streaming audo that will record the program and let you listen at a convenient time. Youcan set a schedule to record recurring programs. There’s about 100 of them actually, many free. Try wikipedia for “streaming audio” and google streaming audio, internet radio, capture stream, terms like that. One program I’ve used is “Replay Radio,” which isn’t free. I never used it for scheduled events, but I was impressed at its ability to record many streams at once. That was years ago. Good luck.

  395. August 17, 2008 at 05:34

    Good Morning Ladies and Gentle
    I am back,very fresh and energetic to keep you company,
    It’s exactlty 7:33 am in the morning..though I am yet to take my breakfast.let me fulfill the responsibility that I have been bestowed by someone I admire most-chloe then I can take my breakfast 3 hours from now at 10:00 am

    Let me go through what has been keeping you on talking….

  396. 398 1430a
    August 17, 2008 at 05:40

    hello gang,
    Congratulations to Micheal Philps for his record breaking 8 gold medals.This is a great feat achieved by him and will be remembered for years to come.

  397. 399 Bob in Queensland
    August 17, 2008 at 05:50

    @ Shirley

    Religious Extremism way back when at 6:25PM yesterday

    Clearly it’s possible to find examples of the Islamic community condemning terrorism. I’d never try to claim that it never happens. However, I remain convinced that it doesn’t happen often enough to counter the very outspoken extremist elements of the religion. Islam is not alone in this. I also suspect we hear a lot more from the “Christian Fundamentalists” than is truly representative. The “silent majority” in either religion isn’t called silent for nothing. However, in the case of Islam this is quite serious; it’s this silence that let’s views like “Islam is a religion of violence” take hold.

    As for whether moderate Islam has a duty to condemn terrorism, I suppose not. However, if a small group of fanatics were perverting something I cared about and using it as an excuse for unthinkable violence, I’m sure I’d want to set the record straight. I’m not talking about huge demonstrations or whatever. Just rational but firm statements from officials disassociating themselves from the worst of the fanatics.

  398. August 17, 2008 at 05:56

    @ Luz Ma
    Nice to have you back.Thanks too for congragulating I and Andrew..well today we are on our way to reaching over 500 comments..off course with you and all the gangs it’s really possible….
    @ Shirley You Said
    “I am certain that you are aware of the vast difference between how Muslims are taught to treat women and what actually happens on the ground in Muslim Street”..
    I agree with you .We as Muslims we have really failed to follow the footsteps of our Prophet Mohamed(P.B.U.H)
    .the Prophet told us both in The Quran and Hadith that ‘Women and Children are the most vunerable in the Society and their rights should be Protected”

    How Many of us stand to help a begging Muslim lady in the Streets? Very few..
    Time zones are very critical in deciding the timings of broadcasting WHYS,-I think the current time is fantastic.
    @ Dannis
    what for a big suprise.my dear…

  399. 401 Luz Ma from Mexico
    August 17, 2008 at 05:57


    Sorry… I didn´t write properly my remark about currency use. I meant to write that I can imagine the reaction of some Americans about the fact that pesos are now accepted in some places at the U.S.

  400. 402 Venessa
    August 17, 2008 at 06:02

    Well I’ve been trying to catch up at RCHQ (RC Head Quarters) at the inlaws. I’ve been watching the husband fly helicopters while drinking the gin & tonics….Typing is tough!

    I am excited about Michael Phelps! Wahoo!!!

    Jonathan ~ thanks for helping out with your streaming knowledge savvy.

    Julie ~ if I only had six months to a year I would do everything I’ve dreamed of. Since I was young the only thing I have dreamt of was traveling around the world and learning (appreciating) the other cultures of the world. It would be in overdrive and I would be in a new country every week. Life is short as it is and you have to take what makes you happy. I wouldn’t want to lose a moment if I knew how limited my days were.

  401. August 17, 2008 at 06:10

    @ Vennessa
    Waw.waw.wa.Excellent and You really …suprised me..
    you wrote
    ‘Since I was young the only thing I have dreamt of was traveling around the world and learning (appreciating) the other cultures of the world. It would be in overdrive and I would be in a new country every week. Life is short as it is and you have to take what makes you happy. I wouldn’t want to lose a moment if I knew how limited my days were.”
    By the way I am feeling that we have the same purpose in life.one day I wil love to travel to all over the world? But I don’t know how many countries are their in the World?

  402. 404 Luz Ma from Mexico
    August 17, 2008 at 06:12


    About your question: what would you do with your life if you knew you weren’t going to be here much longer?

    First I would write letters to my husband and daughters, to be open later, telling them everything I could imagine they might need to hear from me.

    Second, I would make a manual for my husband about certain things he might not know about raising daughters (specially about the teenager years).

    Third, I would try to see again a “white winter”. I love to see snow fall. It is very soothing.

    Fourth, I would spend all my time with my husband and daughters. I would try to be happy… I would want that they remember me that way.

    Fifth, I would leave all my affairs in order (will, taxes, burial arrangements etc.) I wouldn´t want to create problems or be a burden.

  403. 405 Shirley
    August 17, 2008 at 06:19

    I found a story about a young African boy who had been whipped by his Qur’an teacher. It’s gut-wrenching and heart-breaking. We’re not allowed to lay a hand on our children until they are ten years old; and at that point, if we leave so much as a red mark, we owe them money that is their own to keep or spend as they like. There is nothing holy about child abuse.

    Morgan Tsvangirai is offering a leadership compromise with Mugabe. Israel has cleared is troops of murdering a Reuters journalist. Israel has an immigration crisis of its own.

    another bombing of Shia pilgrims in Iraq

  404. 406 Luz Ma from Mexico
    August 17, 2008 at 06:20

    I´ll e-mail you later… I am quite tired now and going to bed.

  405. 407 Shirley
    August 17, 2008 at 06:30

    Portrayal of Religion in Media
    Jonathan, I tend to equate a portrayal of people of rleigion as a portrayal of the religion itself. For example, in the Da Vinci Code, religious figures were shown as ludicrously over-zealously religious, going to extremes in various forms of worship. I know that not everyone would have been bothered by those scenes, but I felt that it painted an undeservedly bad picture of the Church itself. There was also a certain amount of corruption among religious figures. The Masons were portrayed as the ones with their heads screwed on straight. In Stigmata, religious figures were portrayed as helpless to physical temptations or as highly corrupt and murderous. In the book Thornbirds, they were painted as unrepentedly helpless to physical temptation.

    Honestly, I don’t know of any positive portrayals of Catholics in the popular media. I am interested in hearing about any that others have encountered.

  406. August 17, 2008 at 06:31

    Church rejects donation from lottery winner…..
    After Robert Powell hit the Florida Lottery jackpot last month and took home more than $6 million, he thought of his church.

    And he offered to drop his tithe, around $600,000, in the collection plate of First Baptist Orange Park.

    But the church and Pastor David Tarkington politely declined and told Powell they will not accept the lottery winnings.

    you’r comment’s please…

    Zimbabwe deadlock dominates talks

    President Mugabe’s re-election in June was widely condemned as a sham
    Differences over Zimbabwe’s stalled power-sharing deal have dominated the first day of a summit of southern African nations in Johannesburg.

    Zimbabwe’s President Robert Mugabe and opposition leader Morgan Tsvangirai are at the meeting, which is being chaired by South African President Thabo Mbeki.


    you’r comments please..

  407. August 17, 2008 at 06:35

    @ Shirley..Asalam.
    I don’t see any problem with a duksi(quran Teacher canning his students..this had happened in senegal,if it could have been in Britain or US.it could attracted world’s Media Organisations hence leading to bias against our religion..

  408. August 17, 2008 at 07:01

    Hello Abdi, hello everyone.

    Sorry to have had to do that. Just returned from the hospital visit this minute. Shall be here now for the rest of the day. Thanks for holding down the fort Abdi.

  409. August 17, 2008 at 07:05

    @ Andrew
    Well-come back my dear…I am really excited you played a big role towards BP.No.20 despite having a sick relatives.
    However you need to answer some comments/querry a bove

  410. August 17, 2008 at 07:12

    @ Andrew

    Any comments.
    Andrew i just visited your Weblog..nice one..
    Mine? have you seen?

  411. August 17, 2008 at 07:17


    Yes I have had a quick look, much to go through. Mine is insignificant. I haven’t had much to put there. Wanted to do something, but never got around to it.

  412. August 17, 2008 at 07:21


    Things follow patterns and the latest pattern of depiction has turned to point the finger at Catholics. In the past film makers have often vilified one group as evil as the times and fashions of the day dictated. In the last few decades there were the Colombian drug lords or Arabs to name a few, now it seems it is time to bash Catholics.

    Just as we can’t say all Catholics are like ‘that’ equally we have been saying all Muslims are… or all Latinos are… etc etc. But the group that is chosen to carry the mantle of villan is the one that can’t fight back or if they attempt to do so they are made to look worse.

  413. 416 Shirley
    August 17, 2008 at 07:57

    Religious Extremism
    Bob, it has been my argument that Muslims ranging from laypersons to scholars have been condemning violence, both in public spaces and at the pulpit; and that the fanatics gain the spotlight because of the sensationalism of their extremism. I’ve put it in the same category of bleeding and leading. When the local imam calmly states from the pulpit on a Friday afetrnoon that terrorism is antithetical to Islam, I don’t think that TV cameras and microphones will swarm over to catch such a statement to broadcast it for everyone to hear. Of course, there is no way to prove that anyone is making such speeches, since they are not documented outside of whoever might be taking notes on or otherwise recording the sermon that day.

    I went to the Muhajibah webpage and clicked one link. From that one linked page, I ticked off 74 organisations and 153 individuals that spoke out against terrorism in the wake of 9-11 and other terrorist attacks. 518 more individuals and 5 other organisations made general condemnations against terrorism. These denouncements of terrorism began on September 11 or 12 and have continued into 2008. That’s one website. Shall I go to the rest of the ones linked from the Muhajibah site and continue to count? Or does a count of more than 600 individuals and nearly 80 organisations from one website give a good enough idea of how vocal we Muslims are against terrorism?

  414. August 17, 2008 at 08:03

    It;s exactly 10:00am in the Morning as I right,as Promised earley it’s time for me to go and have some breakfast..I will join you very soo…let’s keep on talking…


    Continue being my good companion.don’t forget the hospital relatives at hospital..best wishes..

  415. August 17, 2008 at 08:08

    Reading this story on the discovery of a clouded leopard in Borneo got me thinking about conservation issues.

    A story in a nature programme screened here discussed how we should save our varied environments and species. But the reasons for this were not as noble as you would expect. We should just preserve species for no other reason than we might find it useful somewhere down the line. An undiscovered compound for us to use. It was not about preserving species because we should… period.. It is rather arrogant of us to think we can destroy the world around us but then feel we should preserve this or that species as we who destroy so much might find it useful or need it for a cure.

    Why do we feel that the world is just there for us to expolit without regard to what is around us? Are we that indifferent to other life on the planet?

  416. August 17, 2008 at 08:16


    I have pondered this a great deal, I am no student of philosophy but I can’t reconcile this dichotomy.

    If there are two or three groups who represent differing views on a topic within their system of belief where one advocates violence but the others do not. Who represents this system of belief. The others can say, well we don’t agree with that and that is not the path we follow. But the radical group claims they also follow that system of belief and therefore claim to respresent that group. They do it in the name of that system and as they are part of it, practice its ways then that is representative of that group. Unless you can exorcise those who commit such acts completely then what they do represents you in some way, wouldn’t it?

  417. August 17, 2008 at 09:09


    I agree. I believe that in the future, hopefully not that distant, a goal that all of humanity will strive for will be to save as many of the plants and animals that we can. Hand in hand with that will be cleaning up.

  418. August 17, 2008 at 09:28


    More imprtantly, that we did it because it was for the right reasons and not for reasons of selfishness.

    Doesn’t any other life form on this world have equal a right to exist as we do… this day it seems not and they are merely for our amusement or exploitation.

    Yes I eat meat and yes I use animal products, but hopefully my selection is of not just sustainable or ethical treatment of animals, but that I am not condemning other species to extinction for my own needs.

  419. 422 Shirley
    August 17, 2008 at 09:35

    Religious Extremism
    My family would instantly disassociate themselves from abortion clinic bombers, and I would respect that by not insisting on tying them to that on the word of a minority who are obviously extreme. I don’t even assume a connection, so there is no need for them to remind me that they stand for peace and are completely against those kind of tactics.

    Likewise, they have not once assumed that I tolerate the kind of fanaticism and extremism that we see exhibited by a minority of Muslims. I haven’t had to explain to them that such actions are against everything that I believe in.

    As another example, I would not for a second assume that any of our resident atheists, or any communists out there, would support the kind of tyranny that we saw in Cambodia.

    I personally view this kind of trusting relationship as a matter of common sense.

  420. 423 Katharina in Ghent
    August 17, 2008 at 09:43

    @ preserving variety of species:

    Of course the noble thing would be to just want to preserve them, but fact is that there are so many plants that either haven’t been discovered yet or not analyzed yet, and the pharmacological industry is constantly on the look out for new compounds that may have certain healing qualities… and that they then can patent, as if they had invented the plants. Often enough the industry goes into these remote areas and asks the natives there what they use to cure diseases and then it can look specifically into those plants, reaps the profit, possibly destroys half the environment there and the natives are left with empty hands. IMO, if there is one industry that has even less dignity than the oil industry, it’s pharmacology.

  421. 424 Katharina in Ghent
    August 17, 2008 at 09:46

    @ Venessa:

    My husband happens to be (also) my boss at work, and while that works out quite well, he doesn’t like to see me spending lots of time on the computer, writing comments on WHYS… go figure. I’ve already thought about finding some other remote computer somewhere in the building to get my leisure… but there’s so much work to be done! It’s just not fair! 😉

  422. 425 Shirley
    August 17, 2008 at 09:48

    Andrew: Yes I eat meat and yes I use animal products, but hopefully my selection is of not just sustainable or ethical treatment of animals, but that I am not condemning other species to extinction for my own needs.

    A laudable moral by which to live. My respect to you.

  423. 426 Katharina in Ghent
    August 17, 2008 at 09:49

    @ Julie:

    Did you just watch the movie “The Bucket list”? Is that why you ask the question about what we would do if our time left were limited? To be honest, I don’t know what I would do, probably try to spend as much time as possible with my family, move back to Austria and eat all the delicious unhealthy things the cuisine there has to offer.

  424. August 17, 2008 at 09:50


    Even if it is only a small offset, if something is done in the name of the group, then it not only reflects on the group but represents the group.

    It might be a small part, but a part none the less and until the majority of the group does something more than just say, “Oh no it isn’t us,” then it will remain representative of them.

    Look at Northern Ireland, even today Catholics are viewed with suspicion as IRA sympathisers. The Japanese are still viewed badly in many Asian cultures because of the second world war, and the list goes on.

  425. August 17, 2008 at 09:56


    I do my best. I know as I will be travelling through Asia, I wouldn’t eat any meat there as I know the conditions that animals endure, nor would I eat for curiosity certain other animals that are endangered (seafoods that were harvested by destroying reefs). The fact is humans are carnivores, just as are lions, tigers, wolves, but the meats I eat are bred for that purpose and not taken from the wild and hopefully treated well.

    I grow my own vegetables as much as I can not only because they are better, less chemicals needed. But I thought about it that when I grow a plant for food, I can do so without vast amounts of water wasted, I don’t require fuel for it’s harvest, transportation, retail or collection. Unfortunately we have water shortages here and strict rationing of watering, but it is unfortunate that I can go to a commercial car wash several times a day every day and wash my car, wasting thousands of litres but cannot use water to save the above effort for food production on-site.

    Go figure.

  426. 429 ben's younger brother
    August 17, 2008 at 10:12

    Hi WHYSers

    Reports in the media suggest that Mr Phelps was born bigger and different from other people.

    Does this affect his achievement?

    Why otherwise is there a sense of boredom about his water antics?

    For one, I am much more interested in other sportspeople.

  427. August 17, 2008 at 10:16

    What boredom about Michael Phelps’ performances? There can’t seem to be enough about him everywhere.

  428. August 17, 2008 at 10:33

    ~The Weather~

    It is so hot here at 2:30 in the middle of the night. It is 80*… 26C. I opened my front door, and my across the street neighbor has his front door open, and so does the neighbor on my right. And across the street in the triplex of Latinos… they are having a party in the dark… all of their doors are open!

  429. 432 Katharina in Ghent
    August 17, 2008 at 10:36

    @ Luz Ma:

    Thank you for your kind wishes, my son seems to be back to normal today. (Which means tomorrow he’s back to kindergarten, hehehe.) Your job sounds very demanding, I could never imagine doing something like that myself. I’m rather chaotic myself, and then to be the assistant for an important personality… I also lack the respect, to me it sounds a lot like babysitting a grown-up man, chances are that you not only have to take care of professional aspects of his life, but also at least partially of private aspects, too. “Sir, your daughter has her 6th birthday today, the birthday party starts at 3pm, here’s the Barbie-doll that “you” bought for here…” Personally, I hope that your UN job works out, that sounds much more interesting to me. Would that mean that you would have to move to New York?

  430. 433 Katharina in Ghent
    August 17, 2008 at 11:53

    @ Portland Mike:

    I wish I had your problems, here we rarely get to the point were we complain that it’s too hot. This summer we had exactly 2 (two) days were it was steaming hot. With all your doors open, don’t you worry about safety?

  431. August 17, 2008 at 12:08

    Kinda quiet out here in WHYS land…

    Anyone out there besides me at the moment?

  432. 435 Bob in Queensland
    August 17, 2008 at 12:22

    Just me and Rove McManus….

  433. 436 Katharina in Ghent
    August 17, 2008 at 12:31

    Just me and Bobby McQ… 8)

  434. August 17, 2008 at 12:32

    Thank goodness Bob is here, makes me feel less isolated. Not many posting in the past few hours. Abdi is off at the moment and looks like it’s the graveyard shift. I should move my pc to a room with a tv in it!

  435. 438 Katharina in Ghent
    August 17, 2008 at 12:34

    @ Andrew:

    Do you know Jeff Dunham? If not, look for him on youtube, start with “Ahmed, the dead terrorist” in a second tab/window… you won’t need a TV and I promise you’ll need a Kleenex to wipe away the tears of laughter!

  436. August 17, 2008 at 12:37

    Clearing the spam from my hotmail account and being told about 4 times how I have won lotteries I didn’t even know existed I am reminded of a man in the UK who remitted in total 50,000 pounds to some internet scammers in Nigeria.

    Seems it started off with the typical can you send us a few pounds and we will send you 5 million. Did this guy not hear any bells go off in his head at this point? Then he got the.. we have some problems, you need to send us more.. more.. more… Until he eventually had sent that large total.

    How on Earth can anyone be so gullible as to part with that much money, after the first few thousand you might have an idea that something doesn’t smell right. As he explained, he thought it might be real so he kept putting until he realised he put in so much. Almost like a gambler losing at the roulette table he thought the next bet might pay off big odds.

    The Beijing Olympics had a rather well known scam associated with ticketing. An old story but an interesting one and one to make anyone think twice about ordering tickets online for anything.


  437. August 17, 2008 at 12:41

    I’ll take a look Katharina.

    So as I read, you are Austrian is that right? Moved to Belgium?

  438. 441 Katharina in Ghent
    August 17, 2008 at 12:49

    Yes, to make a (life-long) story short, I’m Austrian, got married to a Canadian who did his PhD in Vienna, moved with him to Toronto in 2000 and then to Belgium in 2004. No there’s not much wrong with Belgium if you ignore the weather and the language (my son being the only one who can really make these sounds right, and I speak flemish to some degree, while my husband never even tried), but it’s not home. I liked Canada, the mentality there is really nice and embracing, and at least it was my husbands country. Here, the only one who feels truly at home is my son, because he doesn’t remember Canada. It always irritates me a little bit when he sees the Belgian flag and says, “Look mommy, our flag!” I always tell him then that it’s the Belgian – not ours… Poor confused child.

  439. August 17, 2008 at 12:56


    Interesting. I am also in such a situation, living here in Australia I don’t feel part of the place, but then I wouldn’t feel at home.. at home either.

    In limbo really. So when it comes to issues such as discrimination and alienation I can empathise with those who experience it.

    That Dunham clip is a keeper…. SILENCE!

  440. 443 Bob in Queensland
    August 17, 2008 at 12:59

    I like Belgium for its beers, the moules and the skinny pommes frites with mayonaise. I’m not so sure I’d want to live there though–their main national industry is bureaucracy as far as I can tell. (My night for sweeping generalisations!) That said, the old part of Ghent is beautiful, especially down by the river, and I know an excellent bar with hundreds of beers there. Anyone for a Kwok?

    Katharina, your potted history reminds me of a thesis I’m going to try out some time. I suspect that people who have travelled even a litte (especially to the point of living in a new country) tend to be more likely to travel more and/or move countries over and over.

  441. 444 Julie P
    August 17, 2008 at 13:45


    You are more than welcome to come to Atlanta to warm up if you like. We have nice hot and humid weather here. Today it is supposed to get to 85 F or 29 C. It’s just after 8:30 in the morning here and it’s 72 F or 22 C.

    I never did see the “The Bucket List”, but I know what it’s about. My brother just got me thinking about what I would do in my last moments of life. If it were a plane crash he described, I’d probably start screaming like everyone else. As for six months to a year…I’d go and see my family as part of it. I know I’d do that. After 9/11 I recall the strong urge to go home to Milwaukee.

  442. August 17, 2008 at 13:52

    @ All
    I am back after lunch,well-come back Julie
    @ Andrew

  443. 446 Julie P
    August 17, 2008 at 13:53


    Where are you from originally? Something makes me think it’s the UK. I don’t know why, I just do.

  444. August 17, 2008 at 13:56

    As I was having lunch I was delighted to watch the Romenian 38 year old winning a gold Medal in the Womens Marathon as our kenyan Nderema Finninshing Second.I felt for Redecliffe-injury forced to finnish 23rd

  445. August 17, 2008 at 14:00

    Hello Abdi

    Hope you enjoyed your meal. I will be around for about another 3-4 hours yet.

    Will we break 500?

  446. 449 Jamily5
    August 17, 2008 at 14:03

    As soon as I am back from Worship, myself, I will look at those links.
    Thanks and may we continue!
    I can’t even get through all of the post, now.
    But, hopefully, later.

    @Julie P.
    If I had the money,
    I would travel to many places: absorbing the people and the cultures, as much as I could.
    Chocolate everyday sounds good!
    Reading as much as possible.
    Spending as much time with my children as possible: having them travel with me.
    Maybe doing one of those tandem cycling projects all across Europe or something.
    Writing lots, also: thinking of what kind of sentiments that I would want to say to my grandchildren. Don’t have any now, but they would not know me.

    Can you send the link to the show?
    We can all view it.
    It does not sound like I would find it funny, but I would love to check it out, first hand.

    Thanks Johnathan,
    When I get time, I will check into that.
    Itunes is not free and I hear that it is a program hog and full of viruses.
    But, I will check out those other resources.

  447. August 17, 2008 at 14:04


    I would have thought an association with Singapore might have popped into your mind.


    Thanks for recommending the clip, nothing beats clever comedy. And I thought only the Irish could manage that. I was lucky enough to see Dylan Moran when he was in Melbourne for a comedy festival in ’07. Warped but a crowd pleaser

  448. August 17, 2008 at 14:06

    @ Andrew Yes we shall break “the virgin 500 comments’ in the next 3 hours..then we shallhunting for over 750 comments..astonishing..

  449. 452 Julie P
    August 17, 2008 at 14:08


    I did think of Singapore, but I thought you may gone to Australia via Singapore. From what I’ve experienced with people from the UK they appear to have a propensity for moving around a lot.

  450. 453 Tom
    August 17, 2008 at 14:13

    @ Fake Olympic fireworks,

    There is a recent mobile video clip on YouTube capturing the the “footprint” fireworks over Tiananmen Square. The caption reads that the fireworks did go off, but the TV showed a pre-recorded digitised version taken on a clear-sky night.


  451. August 17, 2008 at 14:30

    @ Julie P
    well-I guess Andrew is an Australian..
    julie I like the way you wright ‘Pure English’
    so your a british

  452. 455 Katharina in Ghent
    August 17, 2008 at 14:31

    @ Bob

    Yes, I think once you’ve left your home country, you’re doomed to live the gypsy life. I have to admit that it slowly drives me nuts. This spring we were very close to moving to Glasgow, but (luckily for me) it didn’t work out. The thought of figuring out how yet another country works just made me shudder. Can you imagine, when we moved here they made us send my son’s Canadian birth certificate back to the Belgian embassy in Ottawa to have it certified = put a friggin’ stamp on it, as if Canada were some hidden third-world banana colony!

    @ Andrew

    Now that you mentioned Singapore, I remember that you’ve talked about it before, but for the moment I was also wondering where you came from. Did anybody ever ask you who the guy in your picture is (assuming that you’re not that old)? “It’s a flesh wound” hehehe

  453. August 17, 2008 at 14:34


    I will let the secret out of the bag, I changed my name. So on that basis it is hard to make a correct guess with skewed information. Maybe my looks could give it away, often enough people have asked me about that.

    I do have an association with Singapore, my avatar shows a portrait of Thomas Raffles, otherwise – and erroneously – referred to as Stamford Raffles. About the only figure one would consider a decent chap for his time, as far as 19th C historical figures in the employ of the East India Company go and one to admire for what he achieved.

    Originally Polish, living in Australia.

  454. August 17, 2008 at 14:35

    @ Kathi,Hakuna matata Kenya.
    Andrew is the age baraket of 28-34 years…
    Kathi what is the time in Ghent?
    Do you watch Premier League games?.I do .chelsea is my favourite team..

  455. 458 Katharina in Ghent
    August 17, 2008 at 14:37

    One thing that I find very annoying with Belgians is that they see their little hometown as being the center of the universe, and they are actually proud of never even having been to Brussels or Antwerp! They cannot imagine to move to another part of Flanders for a job, let alone another country. It really makes a big difference in mentality when you’ve been to other countries. I remember that when we moved here, I listened to the German service in Belgium, and this guy seriously said “of course, we here in Belgium have the best milk in the world” – 99% of the milk sold here is this ultra-heated crap that you can leave outside in the sun for months, before it turns bad. That day was the day when I tuned into BBC World Service.

  456. August 17, 2008 at 14:38


    Silence (raise eyebrows)….

    What the world needs more than anything now is laughter. Apart from the stress reducing qualities and other health benefits it calms the outlook. It seems these days with the pc police lurking everywhere that subtle satire, which does mock others, is no longer to be allowed. But then, as I mentioned Irish commedians, they just wouldn’t be funny if they didn’t have their Catholic material in their acts. Not that it belittles Catholics, just as Dunham uses his stereotypes to good effect. If we can’t laugh at ourselves then we really haven’t evolved very far as a species wouldn’t you say?

  457. 460 Katharina in Ghent
    August 17, 2008 at 14:39

    @ Abdi:

    it’s 15.38 here. Sorry, but soccer is sooooooo not my game. 23 idiots chasing a ball… I rather read a book.

  458. 461 Julie P
    August 17, 2008 at 14:42


    I really do not think there is “pure” anything, humans have been migrating since we came about and mingling along the way.

    As for me, I do some British ancestry. We began arriving in the colonies in the 1690’s from Plymouth, England. We settled into a Pennsylvania Dutch colony, which was a German sect. (I have no idea how they got that name. I’ve never been curious enough to explore.) In the 1750’s there was a family feud over slavery. The family line separated at that point. The slave owning portion remained in Virginia and the anti-slavery part moved into western areas that would become Kentucky, Illinois, and Wisconsin. The latter is the family line I come from, the anti-slavery line. It was not until the 1850’s when other northern European blood lines entered the family.

  459. 462 Katharina in Ghent
    August 17, 2008 at 14:44

    @ Andrew:

    Look at my ass, it says “Made in China”. You hit the nail exactly. Unfortunately the majority of good jokes needs to be politically incorrect, otherwise it wouldn’t be funny. The best is always if you can make fun of yourself, because then nobody can claim that you insulted him. Here in Europe the fun police is not so strong yet, so we have a lot of very nasty jokes to go around.

  460. 463 Julie P
    August 17, 2008 at 14:45


    Cool! Very cool that you are Polish. I am too. My grandfather and grandmother came to the US from Poland in 1917. One is from Gdansk and the other is from Warsaw. (They are long dead.) I can say grandfather and grandmother in Polish, but I cannot write them. How do you spell them?

  461. August 17, 2008 at 14:46

    @ Katharina

    thanks for your comment..

    I hope your son is feeling Ok.On behalf all WHYS’s we all wish him a quick recovery.
    @ Andrew

    My god Good..so andrew is not your original name? amd your not an australian? It’s true that the use of internet can be harassing sometimes

    @ Julie

    Sorry,I got My guess wrong..”andrew” is not an Australian but a polish in Australi..!!!!

    @ Jamily

    Nice to have you on Board…

  462. 465 Katharina in Ghent
    August 17, 2008 at 14:52

    @ Julie:

    In the end of the day everybody’s blood line is mixed. My ancestors come from all parts of the ancient Austro-Hungarian empire, Italian, Polish, German, Austrian, Jewish, Bohemian, you name it. The same goes for most people in my home country, which makes it very laughable when they complain about “too many foreigners”. The right-wing party had at one point the slogan “Das Boot ist voll” – The boat is full, meaning that all immigration should be stopped. Of course half of the party members had last names that were decidedly un-german… Some of them actually went and changed them. 😦

  463. August 17, 2008 at 14:53


    Well what do you know, small world. Babka or Babcia for GM and dziadek for GF. I hardly use Polish these days which will be fun when I get there in a few weeks, I’ll be too embarrassed to speak! Though it will make listening for snide comments all the more fun.

    Actually that portrait of Raffles shouldn’t look so oldish, old as in old style or old looking? Raffles died one day short of his 45th birthday.

  464. August 17, 2008 at 14:54

    @ ALL

    WHYS’s is off course a global one family..and today
    Andrew,Julie and Katharina have the same ancesterial Background..
    life is truly Tricky sometimes.I am I wrong? I stand Corrected!

  465. August 17, 2008 at 14:56


    I can’t stop laughing when I think how Sarkozy rose to some power on the back of anti-immigrant leanings. Considering he is the son of a Greek and Hungarian-Jewish parents I think, correct me if I am wrong. And is now Monsieur Le President!!

  466. 469 Julie P
    August 17, 2008 at 15:00


    I always get a kick out of people who complain bitterly about foreigners too. I’ve heard similar sentiments here too about “we’re all full, there’s no more room”. I always ask them what they mean by that and I never get an answer.

    I only know my family lineage because of a genealogist in the family who traced out family tree in the US. It’s not unusual for people here to not know their family tree. Also, it is not uncommon for people to have Anglo-sized their last name when they arrived here. There is plenty of documentation of that occurring, especially those who went through Ellis Island.

  467. August 17, 2008 at 15:00

    Ultimately we are all related, creationism not withstanding, all descended from a few thousand ancestors in East Africa all those years ago.

  468. 471 Katharina in Ghent
    August 17, 2008 at 15:01

    @ Andrew

    I just checked on wikipedia because I thought he had gypsy blood, but you’re right: Hungarian nobility father and Greek mother. They always say that the strongest anti-alcoholists are former drinkers.

  469. August 17, 2008 at 15:03

    Oh oh oh…. and he married an Italian.

    Allons enfant de la patrie..

  470. August 17, 2008 at 15:10

    “Allons enfant de la patrie..” What is meaning Andrew

  471. 474 steve
    August 17, 2008 at 15:24

    @ Jonathan

    If you’ve been following the dollar, in the past several weeks it has been gaining value.

    Currently $1 = $1.06 CDN (though it used to be $1.30)

    $1 = euro .68

    Much worse than several years ago, but the trend is that the dollar is gaining value. I recall the dollar was worth $1.2 euros when the euro started

  472. August 17, 2008 at 15:37


    It is the first line of the French national anthem.

  473. 476 Julie P
    August 17, 2008 at 15:42

    @Amount of comments

    It looks like Dennis may be upstaged on his gold medal performance of last weekend’s BP. Could Abdi and Andrew be sharing a gold medal this weekend?

  474. August 17, 2008 at 15:42

    Many thanks…How national anthem goes like this..

    Oh God of all creations
    bless this land our nation
    I have forgotten the rest.
    we use to sing it every morning during our primary school days..
    it reminds when I was young I use to Wonder why the Sky a bove us is not falling on us…

  475. August 17, 2008 at 15:45


    Yes yes yes… add one more!

    Speaking of gold medals.. Jamaica just came 1st 2nd and 2nd in the 100m women’s

  476. 479 Julie P
    August 17, 2008 at 15:48


    My favorite Olympic Jamaican team will always be their bobsled team from the 1988 Winter Olympics. It was so fun! I love the “documentary” of their participation in the “Cool Runnings”. 8)

  477. 480 Bob in Queensland
    August 17, 2008 at 15:51

    If it makes Abdi feel better, Bob really is my name. (Well, actually Robert but most Roberts get called Bob.) However, I’m only a recent Australian (just past one year) though–I’m originally Canadian, lived for many years in the UK (with a short break living in Cyprus in the late 70s) and have now retired here. My wife is Welsh but has lived most of her life in Aus.

  478. August 17, 2008 at 15:51


    The men’s was amazing, considering that Bolt slowed about 40m from the line, imagine if he kept on full speed what time he would have set.

    So the double for Jamaica.

  479. August 17, 2008 at 15:53


    There is a Bob Howe, Canadian hockey player I think.. not you is it?

  480. 483 Julie P
    August 17, 2008 at 15:54


    I really like the Winter Games over the Summer Games, but I would have to agree the Bolt did a fantastic job in the 40m.

  481. August 17, 2008 at 15:56

    Thats a good point and a bad poitn of the summer games. It has a range of sports to view as I doubt anyone likes all the types. So you can pick and choose. Unfortunately if you get bored easily, you can miss the one sport buried amongst the others, such as I did with the gymnastics! Oh well, four more years to wait. I missed them in the Athens and before in Sydney. Can’t remember when I last saw a full gymnastics programme, possibly Moscow 80.

  482. 485 ben's younger brother
    August 17, 2008 at 15:57

    Hi there

    apart from our illustrious leaders, I would be interested to know if anyone is contributing to WHYS from China???

  483. August 17, 2008 at 16:00

    It’s doubtful that anyway really can access fully the BBC websites. Outside of Beijing they definitely would not have access to banned websites.

    The condition for web access was only for the Beijing area during the games period.

  484. August 17, 2008 at 16:00

    @ Bob
    off course Bob ..I like the way you “Pop in’ always so the name Bob is one that you fully deserve.Great to learn that your a canadian..
    @ Andrew
    on Olympics
    A jamaican has women a gold Medal in Men’s 100 Meters he also set out a new world record.

    @ Julie
    Where is Army

    Best wishes,dont worry a bout your son.

  485. 488 Julie P
    August 17, 2008 at 16:03


    I have no idea where Amy is. However, since she lives on the west coast she is three hours behind me, so she could still be sleeping or taking care of her children at the time zone she is in. It’s 8:02 in the morning in Portland right now.

  486. August 17, 2008 at 16:06

    It took me long enough to realise that the images we use next to our names, while they appear in the moderators dashboard on the wordpress site don’t appear in the WHYS blog page, so unless you have mod rights then no one else can see them?

    eg Julie? But I can see her display photo, how did you put that up so it is visible Julie?

  487. 490 Bob in Queensland
    August 17, 2008 at 16:07

    @ Andrew

    Nope…not the hockey player. There did used to be a Canadian football player with exactly the same name as me who actually played for the team in the city where I was living. This turned out to be a disadvantage when he had a bad game–my name was in the phone book and I got all the hate calls for him!

    @ ben’s younger brother

    I haven’t seen anybody blogging from China. If I remember correctly, when Mark first got there he posted that one of the sites controversially blocked from China was WordPress so, unless that’s changed, it could explain the lack.

  488. 491 Julie P
    August 17, 2008 at 16:10


    I have my own WordPress blog, which is how my Avatar displays my picture. I was given that option when I started my blog.

  489. August 17, 2008 at 16:30


    Ahhhhh, but you can’t see ours though?

    Oh Bob, just on the web access, I knew that CHina would not allow any Tibet pages to be available or Falun Gong, but I didn’t realise they felt so threatened by WordPress to block that. I think I heard reporters say that there was limited or haphazard access to that other subversive site… BBC Worldservice, but it was still possible to access. But it was another broken promise for the authorities to match with their medal tally. So even though a free(ish) web access would have had limited availability to Games venues actually not to Beijing area?? Beijing residents would still not have that restriction limited. That’s right isn’t it, web access eased only in games venues, or was it… only for journalists, which means no locals had any improved web access?

  490. 493 Julie P
    August 17, 2008 at 16:33


    At the time I set mine up I was unaware that I could link my blog with my avatar and have not gone back and changed it.

  491. 494 Amy
    August 17, 2008 at 16:39


    A lot of people who changed their names when coming through Ellis Island really had no choice. It was changed for them. If it was a difficult name to pronounce for the person doing the processing (which was most names), it was shortened or changed all together. As you (and Andrew) know, a lot of Slavic names can be a little hard to pronounce. Every time I visit my mom in Wisconsin my tongue gets twisted – and I have a minor in Russian!

  492. 495 Amy
    August 17, 2008 at 16:44


    I’m here but was surprisingly allowed to sleep in. We all got up about 7:30 AM which is very unusual. I have been busy reading what happened here overnight and drinking my coffee. Thanks for thinking of me!

  493. 496 Julie P
    August 17, 2008 at 16:48


    Good morning! I forgot the details about the name changing occurring at Ellis Island. It’s not anything I spend time thinking about, especially since my Polish grandparents went trough there and did not experience a name change. However, my last name is a hybrid Polish French name, which may have helped, but I would have no idea of knowing.

    I know what you meaning about the tongue twisting last names common to the region. If ever run into problems with pronouncing names I just ask my father. He seems to be the last person in Milwaukee who knows anything about Polish, as many of the Polish wave of immigration during WWI are no longer living.

  494. 497 Amy
    August 17, 2008 at 16:58


    I guess with the access to the Olympics that we have here in the States (granted, here on the west coast, most of it is tape delayed) I am able to expose my daughters to a wide variety of sports (of which my husband and I are big fans). So far they have seen water polo (both men and women’s), archery, table tennis, badminton, fencing, weight lifting and wrestling. Those are the one’s that I would deem not all that popular with American audiences. Of course, they have seen some of the swimming (prelims mostly since the finals are on at night and they are in bed), diving and gymnastics. I know that we have enjoyed watching all of the different sports and they are excited to maybe try them some day.

  495. 498 nelsoni
    August 17, 2008 at 17:03

    @ Abdi August 15, 2008 at 7:56 pm

    Unless the house rules have changed, (I stand corrected), the only reason a comment should be deleted is if they go against the rules and not to make way for a welcome address. Deleting Brett’s comment and mine at the beginning is an infringement because they did not violate any rule(s). Happy Moderating.

  496. 499 nelsoni
    August 17, 2008 at 17:06

    @ Katharina in Ghent
    August 16, 2008 at 10:15 am

    Thankfully, yes I do.

    About the Niger Delta situation, the Nigerian leaders are not really sincere about developing the region and those militants can no longer be reined because they have now found a a lucrative way of making money: Oil bunkering, so there is no incentive for them to work for peace.

    About Poverty: Nigerians are hard working people and given the necessary support, every many are rising above the poverty line but still quite a number remain there.

    About Moderating Talking points page: When I was 16, I made a calculation that permanently changed my mind about sleep. I figured out that If I sleep for 8 hours a day, by the time I am 60, I would have spent 20 years of my life sleeping. Another reason that makes my moderating the TP possible is that I have Pda with internet access so I can multi-task and make productive use of my time while moderating at the same time. I have also being listening to WHYS for over a year now until I decided to check out the website out of curiosity and now I am hooked.

    sorry for the late reply

  497. 500 nelsoni
    August 17, 2008 at 17:07

    Quality Vs Quantity: Break up the Blank pages?

    It high time the blank pages are split because with 400 plus comments it becomes very very difficult to follow a particular topic unless you use the RSS feed to track replies, if we continue blogging like this the, aim of the blank pages will be ultimately defeated. And with the essays cum posts starting to creep in again, it is increasingly difficult to read the blank pages. I think we should also spare a thought for the WHYS staff who has the unenviable task of reading the blank pages. I believe that if we think, we can develop a simple but effective system of making the blank pages easier to read and implement it by this weekend. It’s good to have 400 plus comments but what good is it if it can not be organized into a simple, coherent and easy to follow format. Let’s aim for quality then quantity will definitely follow.

  498. 501 nelsoni
    August 17, 2008 at 17:11

    Israel Clears Military of killing/Murdering Journalist {accidentally/deliberately} take your preferred combination

    Such inquiries will only have one outcome. The soldiers will always be cleared of wrong doing, they could identify the tripod but yet they could not identify the press markings. It’s now open season on journalists covering the Israel /Palestine conflict. The message being spread now is kill a journalist and you will be cleared of wrong doing. None of these soldiers murdering/killing journalists in Israel and else where are hardly ever made to face justice. The world should stand up to this. A special court should be set up to try crimes against journalists.

  499. August 17, 2008 at 17:15


    Unfortunately the IDF and Israel can do no wrong. they seem to have carte blanche when it comes to the mthods they employ and the havoc they wreak. Of course they will have their inquiries but it is not as if any of the investigations will openly admit they were guilty and to blame. They always have the US to back them up at any rate. After all, you can justify anything if you put your mind to it and have a tribunal to rubber stamp it.

  500. August 17, 2008 at 17:27

    Congratulations everyone… we did it!

    Surpassed the magic 500.

    I feel as if we have won the gold!

  501. August 17, 2008 at 17:45


    Where you highlighting comment 500 or raining on my tiny bit of joy?

    I see your point and I can agree with it… but we just hit 500!

    I’m all for structure and the like, but hey we’re all human and sometimes it wont work out exactly as planned. it’s like the Beijing Olympics, watch the Chinese athletes and you can see them perform, perform well, but there is just no joy behind their eyes, it’s so detatched, robotic, perfunctory. Where’s the joy…

  502. 506 nelsoni
    August 17, 2008 at 17:51

    @ Andrew

    I am glad we hit 500

    I and thousands of others will be much happier if we have a more “organized” 500.

  503. 507 nelsoni
    August 17, 2008 at 18:00

    @ Andrew

    The ship is all yours now
    I will check in to moderate when possible
    my next post will be on Monday’s talking points.

  504. August 17, 2008 at 18:02

    @ All
    Congragulations all We Have Broken the Virgin 500 commenyts…hm.. lets go for over 750 comments ..yes we can..

    @ Andrew

    well-done again..
    let me go through what you guys have been talking a bout…………

  505. August 17, 2008 at 18:07

    @ Army
    thanks too..
    @ Nelsoni
    Off course your comments and brett’s comment did not violet/break current rules of WHYS..but I feel the need to Start off the Page..anyway sorry to both of you if I have wronged you in any way..ok..
    You don’t stand corrected you’r right my dear..-

  506. August 17, 2008 at 18:12

    Yes Abdi, it has been a good weekend and the following hours should bring more comment from around the world. It is 3 am here so I might wrap it up for today and take a well earned sleep. What a weekend.

    I shall leave it to you and hopefully other moderators in friendly time zones can join you until you take your rest. Thanks for keeping me company this weekend, enjoy the rest of your Sunday evening.


  507. August 17, 2008 at 18:16

    Other Food for thoughts..
    Do you think WHYS should make compusory for the listners to submit comments with Name+country?
    for example I could right Abdi in Kenya?

    Do you think it’s Fair to give Moderations rights to listners a round the globe? What could be the disadvantagses?

    Do you think WHYS Should only broadcast from all over the world rather than just broadcast from Bush House in London?

  508. August 17, 2008 at 18:24

    @ Andrew
    I agree with you..we all have a wonderful weekend..the number comments continue to go up..and this is a golden opportunity to pionner over 750 comments for the firt time ever on any BBC Blog since the creation of BBC 5o years Back…

    Andrew,my dear I am I couldn’t have done with out you,thanks a million time,go and sleep-you really deserve it….Congragulations once more for the well earn token of appreciations..Good night..
    I too Will be around for 1 or hour then I can go and Sleep too but will really love to go and sleep when we hit over 600 comment….So that I can hope that When I open the website I will find over 750 comments..what a dream come true it could have been..let’s see..

  509. August 17, 2008 at 18:26

    I don’t say this because I have mod rights, but the thing to worry about is a moderator abusing the privilege and hijacking a debate with their posts or deleting/modifying posts they don’t agree with. In the past there was a problem with one moderator, but of course if there is a problem, those rights can be revoked by WHYS so this would no doubt be rectified very quickly to avoid further problems. No doubt mod rights aren’t given away lightly and need to be earned by potential mods.

  510. 514 Luz Ma from Mexico
    August 17, 2008 at 18:36

    Yeah!!! over 500 hundread comments!!! well done moderators and whysers 😉


    Indeed, my job feels sometimes like babysitting a grown-up man… LOL!! 🙂 But it has its good parts, like going to important meetings and learning about Politics. I have a Master degree in Law but not “field” experience in Politics, so personally my current job adds a lot to my CV.

    I cannot complain. I have had a hard time getting a good job since I got back from Canada two years ago. The reason why nobody hired me: I am married with two small children. In their eyes, I am supposed to stay at home. So, the sole fact that my current boss hired me for such demanding job given the current patriarchal trend in my country says a lot about him, don´t you think?

    I am looking forward to the UN exam results. If I don´t pass it, I still have a chance to take the next exam (it is in another discipline, but still my field of experience). In the happy case that I pass the exam and get selected after the NY interview, I could be posted in either NY or any office of the UN Secretariat in the world (Chile, Geneva, Vienna, Bangkok and Nairobi)

  511. August 17, 2008 at 18:41

    @ Luz Ma…waw..wa..We are about to make history..is it a nother record breaking in BP’s?

    Somalia….view full profile of Somalia’s Prime Minister


    Somalia just a neighbouring country of ours is a country which cannot just find peace and security for the last 18 years.

  512. 516 Luz Ma from Mexico
    August 17, 2008 at 18:44

    Sorry for not replying to you earlier. I just read your comment (there are a lot of comments to browse through now that we hit the 500). Thanks for your wishes about my exam 😉

    I would love to visit Oregon. It is in my “to do list”. It would be great to meet with you and your family. Indeed our daughters would get along 😉

    I like the idea of a “regional WHYS congress” It is more feasible for me (regarding money and time). We are a lot in North America, so if it happens… I am in!!!

  513. August 17, 2008 at 18:55

    @ Luz Ma
    Could you please help in Moderating….
    I am tired after a long and a busy weekend..I feel like sleeping..and it’s getting late night here in kenya.

  514. 518 Luz Ma from Mexico
    August 17, 2008 at 18:55


    You hit the nail with:
    “I suspect that people who have travelled even a litte (especially to the point of living in a new country) tend to be more likely to travel more and/or move countries over and over.”

    It is our case. My husband and I want to get out of here!!!! LOL… hopefully soon…;)

  515. 519 Luz Ma from Mexico
    August 17, 2008 at 18:57

    I´ll be leaving soon. I have to go shopping for some school suplies for my daughters… sorry… someone else around???

  516. August 17, 2008 at 18:58

    @ Luz Ma

    Many thanks..
    Good night to all..
    I will be happy if we can reach over 750 comments by monday Midday…
    Otherwise thanks to all for making the impossible to be reallly possible.especial thanks to my co-host and Co-moderator “Andrew”-a polish in Australia..
    bye..for now…keep on talking guys’..love you all..

  517. 521 Amy
    August 17, 2008 at 19:13

    I’m checking periodically so I’ll look for new posts. I am currently doing laundry so I know that I am not going anywhere anytime soon 🙂

  518. 522 Jamily5
    August 17, 2008 at 19:14

    About the church not accepting lottery money,
    I understand their principal and while many would call is foolish, I am sure that it was difficult for them to turn it down.
    But, if they believe that gambling is “wrong” then, benefitting from it would not be right.

    About dividing the BP:
    It does seem that it would be hard to follow a discussion and I read the posts, as they come in: 1, 2, 3, 4, (not based on subject mtter).
    But, sometimes, I do go back toread what someone else has said on a topic.
    I am finding that it is taking quite a long time to load the page.
    And, I have to push “refresh” every few minutes to see the new messages.
    I have to do this, always, but it reloads the page again and again. So, if the page is larger, then, each time I refresh, it takes longer to load.
    But, I would not object to whatever you decide.

  519. August 17, 2008 at 19:46

    @ Steve and “the dollar value”

    The US dollar and other “non-tied” currencies have a rubber band like quality to their relationship. Three things to note. The US dollar has been gaining value against the other major currencies. However, many of the US economic benchmarks (unemployment, inflation, housing market) have been more reflective of a continuing slowing economy. But some will say, “What about the fact that the trade deficit shrank last month?” This illustrates the elastic facts. The main things we exported were raw materials. Semiconductors, chemicals, and raw agricultural products are the main exports. These materials are eventually used to make products. Can you guess where most of these products are sold? Back to the USA. So when the dollar sank many of these companies were “inspired” to stock up on their raw materials because they could get more for less. This is called “buying futures”. Think of it as filling your tank up in the middle of the week because you know the price will rise over the weekend. Those products are desined to come back to the states in the form of finished products.

    The second thing is that it is proof that the quickest way to drive oil prices down is to improve the economy. That is way faster then drilling. The quickest way to improve the economy is to have a look at the things the government is spending money on that it could stop immediately. Improve the economy, the dollar gains strength, and the amount of oil you can buy with the dollar is increased. No drilling required.

    The third thing that ties these together is to answer the question why then if our economy is not improving, is the dollar gaining strength? Because as Einstein said, “all things are relative.” So if our economy isn’t getting better, but our dollar is improving against other currencies, there is only one other option. The other economies are getting worse. It seems the rest of the world does still get sick when the US catches colds.

  520. 524 Paul Coletti
    August 17, 2008 at 20:07


    Do you think WHYS Should only broadcast from all over the world rather than just broadcast from Bush House in London?

    Just off the top of my head I can think of the following ‘outside’ locations that WHYS has broadcast from in the past 2 years: South Africa, Glasgow, Cardiff, Ghana, Tanzania, Harlem, Oregon, Beijing, Amsterdam, a Nigerian cafe in London . . .there are many more…


  521. 525 Robert
    August 17, 2008 at 20:18


    Anybody can ask to be a mod if you want to. There is nothing stopping you asking to be one.

    The WHYS do visit other locations. However there is a limit to how many places the team can visit. Having in the past done a lot of travelling with work in the past I can tell you that continually living in hotels in far flung locations losses it’s appeal after the forth week in row.

  522. August 17, 2008 at 21:24

    So Me and dog were sharing a couple of La Fin Du Monde’s this weekend floating in some rather calm winds and I forget which one of us brought it up. But, one of us pointed out that by inciting cheap dramatic prejudice pseudo discussion about minorities in America WHYS missed the boat to discuss a crucial topic that would have actually benefited from a group discussion.

    It is my understanding that it isn’t just the Hispanic demographic that is growing in general, but it is the poor and uneducated. In fact this demographic is expected grow among all nationalities. This is a world problem and not just one that faces the US. We are seeing a population surge in this sector which in turn causes more poverty and education gap. In many ways our government policies encourage growth among this sector of our population with tax incentives and welfare programs.

    The fact that this growth is taking place summons a few questions. Should the government redouble its efforts to educate and find employment for this emerging sector? Should programs that encourage the poor to have more children be suspended? Is it the responsibility of the government to control population or are they only to react to the changes?

    In full disclosure, I am pretty sure it was the dog making the deductions I was busy trying not to fall overboard.

  523. 527 Venessa
    August 17, 2008 at 22:13

    It’s been interesting reading about everyone’s different backgrounds. My knowledge is limited on my own history. My mother was 1/4 native American Indian (although I don’t know what tribe) and my father is Danish. From what I know a majority of his relatives still live in Denmark.

    Katharina ~ I’m jealous to a degree about the gypsy life of moving around the world. Unfortunately for me I suffer from a need to plan ahead and I’m unwilling to pick up and move somewhere without a job a place to live and a backup plan. I don’t have anyone that can help me out in a tough spot so I get a little worried if I get stuck in a position I can’t get out of. Hence it’s the reason I haven’t moved much. Now I’m married to someone who is firmly planted here in Oregon and has a strong connection to his family. It would be terrible of me to ask him to move away although I drop hints occasionally.

  524. 528 Dennis
    August 17, 2008 at 23:09

    @ 500 plus posts!!!! Congrats…..

    But before the party starts, it is a good idea to say thanks to Dennis and my weekend! 🙂 🙂

    @ Amy:

    about laundry, i have several loads left to wash

    @ Luz Ma:

    and school shopping! i have already pick up my


  525. 529 Amy
    August 17, 2008 at 23:26


    If you are asking me to do your laundry, no way buddy!! 🙂 Believe me, I have plenty to do on my own. I hope you are enjoying your break from school. Good luck when your new session starts!

  526. 530 Bryan
    August 17, 2008 at 23:55

    nelsoni August 17, 2008 at 5:11 pm

    It’s now open season on journalists covering the Israel /Palestine conflict. The message being spread now is kill a journalist and you will be cleared of wrong doing. None of these soldiers murdering/killing journalists in Israel and else where are hardly ever made to face justice.

    Spare us the outrage. The Israeli soldier found guilty of killing journalist James Miller is serving eight years in jail. And when we last looked at this subject on another thread Bob mentioned one other journalist who had been killed covering the conflict. Perhaps there were some others, but so far that makes three in 60 years, or one every twenty years. Yet you talk about “Open season?”

    I pointed out on that thread that the Israelis appear to be going out of their way to avoid harming journalists.

    You seem to be one of the more fair-minded people on this blog but you are way out of line here.

  527. 531 Jamily5
    August 18, 2008 at 00:13

    It seems that you are pairing “uneducated,” with “unemployed.”
    I will tell you that many college educated people are taking jobs that don’t even require a High School Dipploma.
    The men and women who have had seniority are bothered because college graduates are coming in and taking their positions or becoming their bosses, — in many cases, a few months before the worker retires.
    and the college grads are upset at going to school for 4 to 8 years, all to have to get a job in a factory or other position, with their parents’ colleagues, (in some cases), that *might* pay … … reasonably well, but certainly not what they have been educated to do.

  528. 532 Jamily5
    August 18, 2008 at 00:29

    Yes, I had to go school supply shopping last week.

    Concerning genology:
    Family trees seem to be so complicated.
    No one has figured out ours and even if they had,
    I imagine that they would prune those unwanted branches. Then, they could deny their existance.
    … … just being honest about my family!

    I would love to travel to other countries when my children are grown… … which is speeding into existance
    I would not mind joining the peace corps or other humanitarian orgs.
    the Peace Corps is the most open, (so far) about working with those who have disabilities.
    Many orgs feel that the disabled have nothing to offer those in other countries and only view them as the recipients of aid.
    @Abdi, at one time, I had researched and offered the Blind school in Thika as my possible placement.
    Obviously, I am not a visual traveler and would hate being stuck on a boring tour bus and would get moreout of the blaring music(if it was not American or Brittish), than the tour, itself.
    But, I would love to have many different experiences and meet different people.
    Which brings me to another point:
    Have any of you checked out “couch Surfing International?”
    If I did go to Europe or anywhere else, I would probably need to rely on someone like a couch surfer because money would be in short supply.
    Yes, we all are a bit skeptical. And, no, I have not paid the $25 to join and be a verified member and I won’t because they have not and will not make their website accessible. After playcating, they ignored my follow-ups about web accessibility. I have a profile there, bt do not have the perks as a “verified member.” that is okay with me, because, I don’t see much activity. You other WHYSers might have better experiences with them, though. and it is a good economic way to travel and I can see where it would be a help to those of us who might not have much money after the initial expenses.

  529. 533 Julie P
    August 18, 2008 at 00:39


    Concerning family trees. I was fortunate enough to have a genealogist in the family, but to better understand my family tree I studied it in my high school American history class, and then revisited it in my college American class. They can be bewildering.

  530. August 18, 2008 at 00:51

    Yikes Steve! One amazing obit!

  531. 536 Venessa
    August 18, 2008 at 00:51

    Steve ~

    Wow was all I could come up with too….

  532. 537 steve
    August 18, 2008 at 01:00

    @ Bryan

    Remember when the far left wanted the head of the soldier that killed Turndall until they found out he was an Israeli Arab?

  533. 538 Dennis
    August 18, 2008 at 01:04

    @ Amy:

    I can do my own laundry!

    i am enjoying my time off very much! i will be going back on 31 august and my first class starts the day after labour day in the united states…………

    Dennis 🙂

  534. 539 Luz Ma from Mexico
    August 18, 2008 at 01:29

    About the obituary, the only thing I could say is…. that was straightforward!

  535. 540 Amy
    August 18, 2008 at 01:42


    About the obit, how sad. I have the feeling that the family was never able to let the lady know how they felt about her while she was alive. I just hope that they will be able to have some peace now that she is gone. Somehow I doubt it.

  536. 541 Dennis
    August 18, 2008 at 02:03

    @ everyone:

    it was another excellent weekend!

    talking point [our next edition], i will be out when it goes
    on live, because i have to go to the doctors’ for a checkup…..

    @ Abdi and Andrew:
    thanks for being moderators on BLANK PAGE 20…


  537. 542 Shirley
    August 18, 2008 at 02:17

    Religious Extremism
    August 17, 2008 at 9:50 am
    : Even if it is only a small offset, if something is done in the name of the group, then it not only reflects on the group but represents the group. … The Japanese are still viewed badly in many Asian cultures because of the second world war, and the list goes on.

    Andrew, when you said that the actions even of a minority within a group reflect on the group as a whole, did you mean that it has that effect on people observing the situation, or that it is the proper situation and the way that it should be?

  538. 543 Jamily5
    August 18, 2008 at 02:22

    WHYS trivia:
    I was just wondering.
    Does anyone know the answers to these questions?
    When did the WHYS shows start…. … how long ago?
    When did the WHYS blogging start?
    At first, were the blogs different than they are now, if so, how?
    Were any of you here when the blogging started???
    how many subscribers and how many regulars?
    Are there lots who come and go — or are the regulars pretty … … um, regular?
    How many mods?
    How many countries are represented— on a regular basis?
    Are there any other interesting WHYS facts?

  539. 544 Shirley
    August 18, 2008 at 02:38

    Vindictive obit: I got the error message “You may have reached a URL that is invalid. Please click here to go to our homepage.”

    Steve et al, what was the gist of it?

  540. 545 Paul Coletti
    August 18, 2008 at 03:31


    WHYS started in 2005.

    The blog started in Feb 06 on the MT platform . . . check it out right here

    It moved to WordPress in Nov 07.

    As for your other questions . . they are all things we’ll hopefully have answers to sometime soon…


  541. August 18, 2008 at 04:01


    I meant that if there is an element in a group that follows its system of beliefs (albeit selectively) but maintains it is a part of it none the less, conducts themselves in the name of that group, then to the outside it will seem that these individuals represent in some way that group.

    You cannot have members of a collective do something in their name and not be perceived as represnting the group. Until you as the majority do something yourselves as the outside will not, then you are stuck with that perception. If I have a society where some members are errant and commit a crime in our name, then until I prosecute them or expel them completely, they will be associated with me.

  542. 547 Jamily5
    August 18, 2008 at 04:14

    Thanks Paul,
    That was quite interestingWyuou have more information about us WHYSers, let me know.

  543. August 18, 2008 at 04:24

    Here is a question for Non-muslim women.
    hypethetically speaking, of course,
    if we did have the BBC conference in Lubna’s beloved country:
    would you wear the hijab?
    Would it be expected?
    If we didn’t, would we be seen as… spoiled Americans or worse?
    I remember someone sharing a story about their friend’s quite American girlfriend who, in my oppinion, flaunted her rights and got herself into a bit of trouble with people from Mexico.
    And, what about alcohol?
    If alcohol is illegal, as I believe that it is in Iran, Akbar’s country, if you went to Iran, would you;
    1. feel obliged to comply with current rules, despite your desires
    2. seek to find ways around laws that you find absurd And, if you do get away with such laws:
    would you kfeel comfotable breaking them: knowing that the average Iranian would get punished severely — (beaten and fined????) for breaking the same laws.

    Can you tell that I miss “Moral Maze,” that use to be broadcasted on the BBC?

  544. 549 Julie P
    August 18, 2008 at 04:59


    I would check US State Department’s travel warnings before I would head off to more “exotic” locations. I’ve done that in the past and changed my mind about going to Bali. As for going to countries where they do not drink, since I don’t drink it wouldn’t be a problem.

  545. 550 Amy
    August 18, 2008 at 05:35


    If I plan to visit any country (regardless of religion), I would do my best to observe their customs and respect them. I may not agree with them but would do my best. If I strongly disagree with something (Saudi Arabia comes to mind), I just wouldn’t go. In order to visit lovely Lubna in her country, if all it took was to wear the hijab, I’d do it in a heartbeat. As for alcohol, I guess since I am older and no longer consume very much or very often, I can take it or leave it. I certainly do not want to perpetuate the “ugly American” stereotype that is out there.

    On the flip side, when someone comes to the States I would expect them to respect some of the things we do here (i.e. women not being completely covered and having opinions, alcohol being consumed). When respect isn’t given it cannot be expected in return.

  546. 551 Amy
    August 18, 2008 at 05:46

    Signing off for the night. Not sure if Abdi or Andrew are around. Congrats on a great weekend everyone!

  547. 552 Shirley
    August 18, 2008 at 05:54

    Religious Extremism
    Andrew, I didn’t understand what you meant when yous aid, “Until you as the majority do something yourselves as the outside will not, then you are stuck with that perception.” Can you explain?

    If hundreds of prominent individuals and organisations from within a group repeatedly condemned the actions of a radicalised minority from the same group, would that satisfy the requirement of ostracising the radicalised minority? Also, are there other groups – religious or not – besides Islam that you perceive as struggling with this problem?

  548. August 18, 2008 at 06:01


    What I mean is if I belong to the ecclectic society and some of our members who follow the teachings of ecclecticism decide to burn down burger joints and they do it in the name of ecclecticism then they represent the movement, even if only a part of it.

    Until the other ecclectics stop this or do something concrete at least, then any time the others act, they act in our name. It is no point to say, well that doesn’t represent us.. because it does. Law enforcement might catch those responsible after they perform criminal acts, but they cannot halt the association with my group. The rest of us who purport to truly represent ecclecticism must act to stop them doing this in our name, to remove them from the sphere of ecclectics. Otherwise, no matter how small, they follow my/our ways and act in my/our name. This goes for religions, corporations, associations, etc.

    No one can stop ecclectics from razing burger joints in the name of ecclectics, other than the remaining ecclectics. I can’t just say, well they don’t represent me or the rest of us.. they do and others will always associate them with us.

  549. 554 Shirley
    August 18, 2008 at 06:15

    Iraqi Security
    Here is a conundrum: a man dressed as a woman blew up a Sunni leader and his associates in Iraq. Having women search women is a very fine idea. What might the protocol be, though, when a man tries to go through the women’s side of the checkpoint? If the ladies working the security booth are Muslims, they would face the dilemma of not being able to physically handle the undercover man once they learned that he is a man. It would also be a very sad situation if the man blew himself up at the checkpoint after being discovered as a man.

  550. 555 Shirley
    August 18, 2008 at 06:26

    from AP: Sudan sentences 8 to death for attack near capital

    This smacks of kangaroo court to me. A government that is actibvely supporting genocidal forces convicts and sentences those who would fight back? It’s nonsense, I think.

  551. 556 Bryan
    August 18, 2008 at 09:24

    steve August 18, 2008 at 1:00 am

    @ Bryan

    Remember when the far left wanted the head of the soldier that killed Turndall until they found out he was an Israeli Arab?

    Sure do. That really exposed the hypocrisy of the far left. Also, it must have been a bit confusing for them to wrap their heads around. And Arab fighting with the Jews against Palestinians? Far safer to ignore such an incongruous situation rather than try to find out what actually is going on there.

    But I see from my post at 11:55pm yesterday that I’m mixing the Tom Hurndall case up with journalist James Miller. The latter’s family received 12 million shekels compensation from Israel, having demanded 3 million pounds.

    Andrew August 17, 2008 at 5:15 pm
    Unfortunately the IDF and Israel can do no wrong. they seem to have carte blanche when it comes to the mthods they employ and the havoc they wreak. Of course they will have their inquiries but it is not as if any of the investigations will openly admit they were guilty and to blame. They always have the US to back them up at any rate.

    You can take my 11:55 pm response to Nelsoni as applying to yourself as well. Why not do some basic research to ascertain the facts before coming up with the obligatory knee-jerk condemnation of Israel?

    You might also like to look at the treatment meted out to journalists by the Palestinians – like Alan Johnston, “friend of the Palestinian people.” And the Fox News photographer held by kidnappers until it became clear to them that they had got the wrong guy because he’s married to Anita McNaught, another journalist friend of the Palestinians. I wouldn’t like to see what the Palestinians would do to a journalist from, for example, the Jerusalem Post.

  552. August 18, 2008 at 09:40


    Let me put this to you. If you see a boy kicking a dog across the street and another boy standing next to you also kicking a dog, would you accept if you apporach him and tell him to stop that he responds to you by saying, “But that boy is kicking a dog too.” Does that make what he is doing any better? Any more justifiable.

    Because your responses to criticism of Israeli government or military forces actions is no different. It goes, “Yeah… Well… but look what they’re doing…” Look what Hamas is doing, look what the Palestinians are doing, etc ad inifinitum.

    Just because the other side is barbaric, does not excuse criticism of Israel and my comment stands. Along with other’s expressed here. Many posters such as myself criticise all regimes across the globe without fear or favor because it is right to hold action and reaction up to the spotlight. To do less than that is to ignore what is wrong and what must not be acceptable to a civilised society. If that offends you, as it often does, that is what having the freedom to speak out is all about because at times one side either cannot see the point of view of another or simply does not wish to.

  553. 558 Jonathan
    August 18, 2008 at 09:54

    How would breaking up a blank page help the BBC staff to read it? If there are 500 comments, they can be on one page or two or ten, but if they want to read them all, they have to read them all. Don’t they?

  554. 559 Katharina in Ghent
    August 18, 2008 at 10:50

    I’m also not a fan of breaking it up. Many topics that come up don’t make it over 5 comments, it would be a waste. The only thing that moderators might do is make a new page when they see a topic really take off, but I don’t think that you can move comments from one page to another, so the early comments would get kinda lost.

  555. 560 Katharina in Ghent
    August 18, 2008 at 10:53

    @ Venessa

    We wouldn’t move to another country if we didn’t have a job waiting for us there, that’s why we’re still in Belgium. When we moved to Canada, my husband had a job but I had to wait 6 months until I was allowed to start looking for a job, and that left me rather depressed. (Canadian winter is as cold as you can possibly imagine… ) When we moved to Belgium, we even already had the appartment rented, furniture ordered to be delivered the next day and a daycare place for my son secured for the next first of the month. That was quite well organized, but it takes a lot of energy, and it’s not fun. Definitely not.

  556. 561 Bryan
    August 18, 2008 at 11:15

    Andrew August 18, 2008 at 9:40 am,

    There are two separate arguments here. Obviously two wrongs do not make a right but one can expose the anti-Israel bias of people on this blog or on the BBC in general or anywhere else without any reference at all to the Palestinians. I do and have done so frequently.

    Lubna at 5:33 pm yesterday posed the question of whether I am against the Palestinian people as a whole (no I’m not) and you made the following argument at 5:41 pm: “But simply by supporting a Palestinian cause or sympathy for the people, the average person who does not want war, that does not mean you negate what Israeli citizens go through when attacked.”

    Granted. My difficulty is with the disproportionate sympathy for Palestinians and criticism of Israel.

    Four journalists have been killed and one seriously injured (Israeli as it happens) in the fighting between Russia and Georgia. Is anyone here really concerned about that? Is anyone jumping up and down and pointing the finger at Russia or Georgia and demanding an investigation and punishment of those responsible? Is anyone assuming that they deliberately targetted the journalists in order to shut them up and deny the world their story, or are people keeping an open mind and assuming innocence until guilt is proven?

  557. August 18, 2008 at 12:41


    Four journalists have been killed and one seriously injured (Israeli as it happens) in the fighting between Russia and Georgia. Is anyone here really concerned about that? Is anyone jumping up and down and pointing the finger at Russia or Georgia and demanding an investigation and punishment of those responsible? Is anyone assuming that they deliberately targetted the journalists in order to shut them up and deny the world their story, or are people keeping an open mind and assuming innocence until guilt is proven?


    I posted a comment this effect previously as it happens.

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