It was Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi’s pre election pledge to be tough on law-and-order, promising new measures to curb illegal immigration and combat crime. And he’s certainly been true to his word.
Over the next week 3,000 soldiers will be deployed in major cities including Milan, Rome and Naples. But what message does it send out?
Countries like Iraq, Israel and in the past Northern Ireland have become used to the army on the streets, but they have been responding to specific security threats. Italy is different.
Does this move by the Italian government undermine the police? Would you feel happy to see the army on the streets where you live? Would it make you feel safer, or set a dangerous precedent?
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I am never happy when i see the army on the streets. Because in my country, Nepal, Army only will come out on the street at the time of Insurgency. Otherwise, All other security works managed by police.In my opinion the police is sufficient and capable to well manage the good security of the city rather than army in normal situation of the country. when the army come out on the street i feel and imagined there is something danger and serious.
Doing that simply shows a vote of no confidence in the police force. And I would not want that in my country because soldiers are known to show contempt for civilians often leading to cases of rights abuses and brutality.
Hi WHYS,
In Uganda we are getting used to Inspector Generals of police who are army Generals; at least for the past 5 or so years. If it does not work well in your country give Museveni a call!
Walter in Entebbe-Uganda
I think each country is different. I am fine with the police force policing the streets and the armed forces on military installations.
“Would you feel happy to see the army on the streets where you live?”
In the county where I live there would never be a need. I already live in a facist police state. They stop people for any reason, like looking at them.
That said, it is a sad state of affairs when using the military to police is even considered, especially in Italy given thier history. The military is for defending a country, not for policing the population.
Of course! If the police do not have the resources or are under the sway of corruption, all available means must be employed to keep the citizens safe.
There is only one comment here now, but I can just see liberals crying about that fact that the army was employed in Italy because of their aversion to any kind of armed force, even if it is necessary for public safety. They are averse to this of course, until their own safety is at stake. Then, they demand even the airforce to be brought in.
Soldiers and police officers have very different skills. The army could be useful in civil diasaters or roits/unrest but almost certainly usless for general crime seen on the street.
Soldiers can impose order, they don’t though have the training to deal with the law.
@ Nelsoni
Unfortunately, police are more known for that same contempt. Some police forces test extensively for it, but others want the baddest dudes on the block to become policemen. See last week’s post about policeman and bike rider.
However, I agree that putting military on the streets is just asking for civil rights abuses, which will later end in civil unrest. Following that, there will be conflicts that will undoubtedly end in loss of life. In essence, putting armed forces in our cities would do more harm than good.
The security issue is always a tough one. I think most of us need to take it upon ourselves to make sure that we are secure. We should all be taking Krav Maga classes and carrying pepper spray. Women should be smart enough not to get drunk and leave a bar with someone they just met. Better yet, people should probably avoid getting drunk in the put in general. 90% of the violence I’ve seen has been at or while leaving a bar. Making smart decisions is the ultimate weapon.
it is certainly not going to help the morale of the police
After actually reading the story from the topic, I think what Berlusconi has done is quite a good idea. If these soldiers are “patrolling alongside police officers and guarding high-profile tourist sites and embassies, as well as immigrant holding centres”, then it’s unlikely that they will violate the human rights of citizens. This is a far cry from setting up road blocks and searching cars.
Armies are trained to fight wars, police are trained to protect cities. The two functions don’t mix well.
If Italy needs more or better trained civil police then so be it, but using the army is not the way.
I’m gonna play the liberal, say ‘maybe’ and cry about it.
I believe under certain circumstances it is acceptable, but use of this tactic should be made with the utmost caution and organization. Theres something unsettling about tanks or armored vehicles and troops rolling around the city to tackle general crime.
I do not like what so called police or army police. they are abusing human rights
like in my country Sudan. if you visit southern sudan you would hair mose of the crimes at night in juba are done by the army police.
here are some of the crimes
-rapping
-killing
Of course the Army should police cities, in a Dictatorship.
-Anthony, LA, CA
@ Asad
It’s not necessary to use labels like “liberals crying” here. This is a blog, so it can be non- partisan. The nice thing about this blog is that we are free to discuss each topic without a party telling us what we think. It’s also not necessary to generalize about how liberals would react in each situation. We’re all people and regardless of party, we all have unique opinions.
I agree, sending in the military is justified, if the situation is out of the local authorities control. However, if the military is put in place in an effort to police the city, it might cause more damage in the end due to the civil unrest that results from human rights violations.
Military force and justice are far different than civilian and police force and justice…
Is it sometimes needed? Yes. But, it should always be secondary and in support of the local police force unless you are actually fighting someone.
Military service people are trained to KILL. Those reflexes are hardwired into them by training. You can’t turn that loose on a population and not expect problems.
So in limited amounts, in support of police forces.. yes. As a primary provider of law and order? God help us.
Home here,the army is trained to engage in war enemies attacking from the borders. Our police force is trained to work with civilians within. They are thus trained differently. Tis no crime for a soldier to shoot where a slap would have done the trick.If a policeman,trained to work in civilian territories, goes shooting at every suspect, a lot of innocent and not-so-innocent lives will be lost.
Methinks every country is different so if the army of the country is trained to handle civilians, then why not? Let the army patrol the streets. But if the army, like in my country,is trained for war, then brace for a rapid population fall, and a new fragrance on the streets; cordite.
Should an army police a country?
Well if thay are not doing anything else, like the Italian army ,might as well help out.
Any time an army is called onto the streets to act against its own nations people,it means there is an emergency of some kind ,the people have become an enemy of the state.
The state has failed to maintain law and order
by use of the administration,executive,legislature,judiciary and police.
Sounds scary to me. The army are best suited for protecting the national security of the nation at best at frontiers rather than policing civilians. From the experience we had here in Cameroon during the last civil unrest over the high cost of living, I can only say the military is a brute force when it comes to dealing with the populace.All they seem good at is firing at any mobile objects including human beings!
Never would be allowed in the US except under Martial law situations say after a hurricane or rioting.
@ Nick in the USA, i thought we were going to do away with these long and elaborate posts/speeches. In regards to the army being deployed in cities across Italy, the police is responsible to protect lives and properties. In the absence of the police being able to restore order and provide adequate security, it becomes increasingly prudent to call the army in for help.
@ Nick in the USA
I never mentioned a party, just a political and social tendency, which happens to abound on this blog.
I agree with you opinion, the Army must receive special training in order to take up police duties. From personal experience, I know that the training received in the armed forces is not always compatible with law enforcement capacities.
But what Italy has done, pairing up soldiers with police officers is a good idea indeed.
Hi WHYS,
In Uganda, it is not only the army taking over the streets, it is kind of an awkward merger of the two forces. Police is headed by army generals and in the process the “police” has become more brutal and less civil.
Honestly, I am very scared not only for the country but for what it will take to restore the sanity in the police force.
To your direct question: Should an army police a country? The answer is no, never, nada, nope and any other way you can say no.
I have read the story and – believe it or not – can see why they are doing it. Look at the British police at, say, Heathrow airport – no one questions them carrying semi-automatic weapons. But what you have to do is look further and ask the question why do Italians feel that this is acceptable because of their fear of [crime] anything?
Again, and I have kept saying this and will continue, it is the way that political correctness has decimated society and those who espouse this vile ideology. I know it is repetitive of me to keep saying it – but it is true.
This fear is being left within the confines of society and will be used against the people at one point. Look at how many times you see “For the safety of the Children”, “For the safety of our society”, “For security matters”, “To fight organised crime” – it is the new way of persuading the population that some draconian law is ‘for the public good’.
@ Asad:
I never mentioned a party, just a political and social tendency, which happens to abound on this blog
So… you mean your stereotyping?
@ Will:
Great points!
The culture and religious beliefs of some countries like Iran and what was Iraq under Sadam Hussien just cannot live in peace so that having a democracy is like giving poison to a child. The men and women of these countries never agree on anything they have past hatreds amongst themselves and too often resort to violent demonstrations resulting to death of some of them. For them it is better to be ruled by a dictator with an army to put down any uprising so that the inhabitants are subjugated in a way to behave and accept the rule under the gun, the result peacefull coexistance follows.
A good case in point is what was Jugoslavia, under President Tito there was complete stability, we saw the resulting ruthless killings and breaking up of the country after he died.
We have had experience of this… 1st World War… 2nd World War…
When will these boys grow up?
Malc
Berlin
Hi,
i think that the army policing a country, is a bad idea…but in this situation
is good idea.!
🙂
Dennis
Syracuse, New York
United States of America
The culture and religious beliefs of some countries like Iran and what was Iraq under Sadam Hussien just cannot live in peace so that having a democracy is like giving poison to a child. The men and women of these countries never agree on anything they have past hatreds amongst themselves and too often resort to violent demonstrations resulting to death of some of them. For them it is better to be ruled by a dictator with an army to put down any uprising so that the inhabitants are subjugated in a way to behave and accept the rule under the gun, the result peacefull coexistance follows.
A good case in point is what was Jugoslavia, under President Tito there was complete stability, we saw the resulting ruthless killings and breaking up of the country after he died.
The main problem with the army policing a country is that some individual soldiers take it upon themselves to abuse their power and take advantage by intermidating men and women as they see fit, resulting in some cases of rape, torture and bribes. In the case of Italy a democratic country they should not do so.
I don’t really care what their reasoning is – If I were planning to travel in Europe right now I would be taking Italy off my list of places to see.
I make it a point to avoid going anywhere where an army has been called in to maintain order.
@ Will
Very insightful post, as always. However, I’m wondering how you might handle the situation that Elias has presented.
@ Elias
I can understand what your saying. There are countries where the fear resulting from age old rivalries can create a situation that regular policemen can’t handle. However, I don’t think a militant government is the proper answer. I think promoting cultural awareness would be more effective. Criminals will always find a way around defenses.
No & never. There’s no need for the army. Uganda is suffering b’se the army doesnt want tn stay in the baracks!
@Brett
“So… you mean your stereotyping?”
hahah Uh oh! Here it comes! The liberal buzzwords come out. Let me give two more for you to use: “political correctness” and “diversity”
No. What I am doing is logically extrapolating the views of liberals to this issue and preemptively refuting them. Is that stereotyping? Maybe. Who cares?
Is it stereotyping to assume that a classic liberal would be in support of free trade? Is it also stereotyping that a member of the NRA would be in support of the freedom to carry handguns? No, these are perfectly logical assumptions.
You can see the fact, army running Myanmar and many other unfortunate countries in the world. What happen to their people? Wits and brains are more important than military force.
If they are deployed to deter homegrown crime or dissent, it is a bad thing. If they are an attempt to counteract a real external danger to the nation and it works, it is proper, though regrettable.
@ Asad
My point was, having an us vs. them attitude and labelling people doesn’t benefit the blog at all. Also, if you argue stereotypical liberal vs. conservative rhetoric before anyone has even refuted your claims, we aren’t able to look at a situation objectively because we’re busy picking up those hot topics. If you don’t like liberals views, then bring it up in the blank page. By labelling people in the blog, you’ll only separate the community.
Should an army police a country?
YE!
Silvio Berlusconi – you examine the good old chap ‘DNA’it will show that
he has athlete’s feet.(it’s simply nature of the beast)
The problem is innate. Corruption is internal.(going back for ages)
YOU DON’T BIT YOUR OWN TAIL, DO YOU?
YE, YE I know I’m from ‘ Nutswille’.
Bjay connotation with accent.
ps; you should be attaching th problem on the employer angle, now you can humor me, I might be fickle!!!!!!!!!
would expect anything else from berlusconi? i am just waiting for him start calling himself “il duce”.
I live next door to a Army Military Base, Fort Benning, Georgia. My city was openly under Marshall Law in the early 1950’s. Between the 1950’s and late 1960’s very often tanks and other large weapons were displayed Downtown Broadway. Recently mock city military maneuvers were played out on city streets. The Army have counter parades against SOA protests and have the upper hand in media exposure.
There are very many military individuals infiltrating the whole city’s structure. Army, Navy, Air Force and Marine Military Reserve Bases exist in large quantities employing what is called as The Weekend Warrior. The Reservist encompass the workforce and are dominant controlling a mind set as a over all peer monitor and action initiating group.
The number of these Military Reserve Base are 3 to 7 seven times greater than the number of Post Offices in a City. So you see there is already a Underground Police Force controlling and implementing military decree above the civilian population.
It is impossible to tell the truth about history and about current events because a spin on what is wanted a public to believe is greater that the actual truth. Citizens are brain washed zombies and do not in many areas of daily life think for their self.
Too much is not investigated and never does thought venture into the avenues of human exploitation and acknowledgement of a government’s crime. A humanity is forced to exists among a populous that allow the degradation of lifelong and horrific experimentation.
The idea of there being the army on the streets scares me. I would be sure that something has gone very wrong in America. Even if there was nothing wrong going on at the time, the soldiers themselves would scare me. Police brutality still consists here and I don’t think that the having the Army instead of the police won’t really change that. the fact that they are better armed then the police worries me more.
Excellent, the BBC is going to get a very reasonable outlook from a “Green Party” MP who sounds like she is 80 years old.
Why not Italian Govt declare Marshal Law, as the use of Armp against there own people dosent sound right.
A civil society suppose to run with civilian attitute & manner, as army rules & regulation’s are totally differant from Democratic political society. Why not EU notice this semi military rule by way of suspending Italiam Membership & sanction’s against Italian Govt via Security Counsil.
Unnoticeable behaviour of EU & UN Security Counsil may be understand as Double standard of Justice, physical harm to Democratic Civil Society & this is what every one is noticing in Global era.
If Italians are ungovernable by Civil Law’s why we are forceing them, I am wondering why USA & EU are not lodging a compain in regard to libration of Italy like Iraq.
@ Will Rhodes
“This fear is being left within the confines of society and will be used against the people at one point”
You will stop decrying others for demanding safety in the face of danger when you yourself are mugged and beaten. I have been to Italy, I have seen the dangerous situation developing there with the influx of illegals from Eastern Europe, primarily Alabania.
So Will, when you are mugged and beaten, you’ll be humbled and cry for an airstrike upon your assailants.
I believe it’s just for show, really. Soldiers are not trained for anything resembling police work.
Why don’t they expand the police forces?
I live next door to a Army Military Base, Fort Benning, Georgia. My city was openly under Marshall Law in the early 1950’s. Between the 1950’s and late 1960’s very often tanks and other large weapons were displayed Downtown Broadway. Recently mock city military maneuvers were played out on city streets. The Army have counter parades against SOA protests and have the upper hand in media exposure.
There are very many military individuals infiltrating the whole city’s structure. Army, Navy, Air Force and Marine Military Reserve Bases exist in large quantities employing what is called as The Weekend Warrior. The Reservist encompass the workforce and are dominant controlling a mind set as a over all peer monitor and action initiating group.
The number of these Military Reserve Bases are 3 to 7 seven times greater than the number of Post Offices in a City. So you see there is already a Underground Police Force controlling and implementing military decree above the civilian population.
It is impossible to tell the truth about history and about current events because a spin on what is wanted a public to believe is greater that the actual truth. Citizens are brain washed zombies and do not in many areas of daily life think for their self.
Too much is not investigated and never does thought venture into the avenues of human exploitation and acknowledgement of a government’s crime. A humanity is forced to exists among a populous that allow the degradation of lifelong and horrific experimentation.
Should an army police a country?
YE!
Silvio Berlusconi – you examine the good old chap ‘DNA’it will show that
he has athlete’s feet.(it’s simply nature of the beast)
The problem is innate. Corruption is internal.(going back for ages)
YOU DON’T BIT YOUR OWN TAIL, DO YOU?
YE, YE I know I’m from ‘ Nutswille’.
Bjay connotation with accent.
ps; you should be attaching the immigration problem on the employers angle, now you can humor me, I might be fickle!!!!!!!!!
I’m curious, even with the left, nobody complains, let alone shouts “Racism!” when europeans deal with illegal immigration, but in the US, if you propose even enforcing the laws, you are a “racist”. Why the double standard?
I would feel on edge if there were military policing the streets.
Militay personnel typically have a lower education level and are trained that might makes wright as well as having to follow their order to the letter or face charges making them more likely to let their weapons do their talking whereas a police force often have higher standards of education requirements to become part of the law enformement and have to make decisions for themselves.
It is the difference between a blunt force trauma instrument – military vs. more surgical deal with any situation instrument – police force.
Military has no place in civil society except in cases of natural disaster or civil unrest.
Not a bad idea. I would feel safer.
I live in Prague and while it is not too violent I think if there were a few soldiers standing around the Old Town and the main train stations there would definitely be less crime. I only wonder what the army would be allowed to do… a case of point and shoot? In that case no.
Should an army police a country?
YE!
By the name of security, you losing your freedom.
You will building a wall which you keep you in.
This is an evolutionary step a little too soon – for me anyway’.
This is just a bigining before they will be tinkle with your ‘DNA’
bjay connotation with accent.
@ steve,
You mean “undocumented migrants” right? hahaha
I don’t agree with having soldiers on the streets and it should be about expanding the Caribinieri instead. However, as one of the tourists who has had a group of street children try to rob them outside the train station in Rome (where people catch the airport buses), any show of police/security in these kinds of areas would actually make me more confident about visiting again! It was clear from their reaction when we shouted and pushed the street kids off, that they do this regularly everyday to innocent tourists and often with success.
@ Steve
“but in the US, if you propose even enforcing the laws, you are a “racist””
Is this true? I support enforcing the laws, but nobody has called me a racist. In my opinion, if we just stopped outsourcing things from China and started outsourcing them from Mexico, we’d fix the immigration problem.
Now, back on topic.
@ Asad
Since we’re talking hypotheticals with Will. Would you be humbled if a group of soldiers beats you and rapes your wife after the person in charge orders them to investigate all immigrants? This type of thing has happened time and again.
I have enjoyed the protection of a soldier while in Mexico City at a sidewalk cafe yet I have seen the impotence of the National Guard in Los Angeles during the 1992 riots. Give soldiers the bullets if you give them the assignment. Chinese Proverb: “The blood of one chicken will scare many monkeys”.
I think putting military on the streets just for the reason of crime control is a dangerous precedent. Where is the border with military control or repression of legitimate demonstrations in a democratic country?
I understand to a certain extent that police forces may be undermanned, but then involving the army to support them should be on a strict temporary basis, while efforts are undertaken to enlarge the police forces or create a separate national police division
I think the important factor is context and history. In some countries the army and the military have a negative reputation and a history of brutality and abuse towards civilians. Naturally, in those societies seeing the army in large numbers on street would be a source of concern to the citizenry. However, if the army has a more positive reputation, as seems to be the case with the Carabinieri in Italy, then it is not as disturbing. In Italy, the Carabinieri have a history of working in cities addressing civil matters. Also, one must note that in some countries when the army deploys in the cities they do so with full force (i.e. armored vehicles, tanks, etc.) whereas in Italy the Carabinieri are either on foot or in standard cars similar to the police in other countries.
Finally, below is the official definition of The Carabinieri from Wikipedia:
The Carabinieri, (Italian for Carabiniers) are the national-level gendarmerie of Italy who also perform military police duties. They police both the military and civilian populations. Their Italian name has become the common name for this force in English. The full official title of the force is Arma dei Carabinieri (literally Arm of Carabinieri); it was formerly called the Corpo dei Carabinieri when it was a branch of the Italian Army.
Historically, a Carabiniere was a cavalryman or soldier armed with a carbine. Their motto is Nei Secoli Fedele (“Faithful throughout the Centuries” but usually translated as “Always Faithful”). Their mission was to control crime and to serve the community through respect for the law.
Joe
San Francisco
The task of the army is to defend the country against foreign aggresions and help with catastrophies. The police on the other hand is trained to combat crime, which is something that the army doesn’t. Their methods are very different and I therefore wouldn’t like to have a brutal soldier patroulling my street. They are prepared for war not for peace. And as they say, it’s very easy to have a soldier out of the base but it’s very difficult to have it back. Who will then control the judiciary, the army or the justice?
I happen to live near Chicago, in the US, which happens to have a rather high crime rate. The govenor about a month ago actually proposed deploying the National Guard troops to try to deal with it. The Chicago police were predictably annoyed with this. When troops are deployed to combat crime, it generally gives the impression that the police have failed. Also, it is never a good when troops, who are trained in combat and not in civil law enforcement. For example, a soldier is much more likely to shoot dead an unarmed, violent drunk than a Police officer. Troops should only be deployed to the street if there is a perticular threat to public safety by an armed force or massive rioting, not to combat muggings and robberies.
@ Nick
“Since we’re talking hypotheticals with Will. Would you be humbled if a group of soldiers beats you and rapes your wife after the person in charge orders them to investigate all immigrants? This type of thing has happened time and again.”
hahaha Good one, because that type of thing happens all the time on the streets of Rome and the streets of New York City. Will you be so…unrealistic as to claim that your hypothetical case has the same plausability as getting mugged and beaten on the streets of Rome?
You just hate armed force of any kind don’t you? I apply the same principle to you as I do to Will. Until you find yourself humbled by a mugger, then you will change your views on the matter.
The ‘fruit flies’ will run over Italy.
bjay
joe,
berlusconi is talking about the army and not the carabinieri. that is one big difference. the crabinieri have a high visibility acting more or less as the police force. however, you have municipal police, finacial police etc etc as well. similar to having, police and sheriff or rangers here in the states.
In America, the National Guard are citizens who are not usually full-time soldiers and are not to be confused with active duty personnel. Each state has its own National Guard which are often used in crisis situations or natural disasters to assist the local communities, with occasional deployments to war zones. Often, National Guardsmen and women are called to serve the very cities in which they live. Usually these units are de-activated when the crisis has passed and levels of control are back within the scope of local law enforcement. It is a sign of the never-ending war on terror that these soldiers have been placed on more permanent city deployments, as your caller mentioned in NYC.
As as member of the US Army National Guard I served in a police capacity during the stressful times after Sept. 11th, 2001. I did carry a weapon and did have ammunition for it, but we did not keep our rifles loaded. While some Americans did show obvious concern over our presence, the vast majority were comforted by the obvious sign (placebo or not) that their government was using all available resources to keep the population safe.
@ Asad
“Will you be so…unrealistic as to claim that your hypothetical case has the same plausability as getting mugged and beaten on the streets of Rome?”
I don’t have to claim that because Taban Alfred David has already done so. Please see his post at 4 pm. Since neither of us has experience living in a military police state, I’d have to say his opinion is a bit more credible.
Also, why do you assume that I hate the armed forces. My father, grandfather, and uncle all served in wars in the US military. Also, the chances of me suffering from a mugging are quite low. I’m 190 lbs., train krav maga and other martial arts, and carry pepper spray. I’m not exactly an easy target. If however, something happened to my wife (who also does martial arts), I would not go running off to the army asking for help. What could they do that a policeman couldn’t? Can they follow me around everywhere I go. A mugger isn’t less likely to attack when a soldier is in the area than when a policeman is in the area. They attack when there is nobody there to protect you.
Asad –
Did you read in my point where I said I understand in this situation? And no I wouldn’t call for an air-strike – I would call the police so they can do their job.
I don’t ‘decry’ anyone living in peace – so I don’t quite understand what you mean by that.
Nick in USA –
He has valid points – what I would say is that the police were in charge of policing in Yugoslavia, it was a matter that Tito had the army to back him up in power. That isn’t policing – it is the blueprint of dictatorship. Policing isn’t utilising the armed forces to stay in power against the will of the people.
@ Will
I understood your point. The problem with it that I had and which I adressed by presenting the hypothetical but very plausible situation, is your condemnation of people living in FEAR. Although it is very easy to hold them in contempt while you yourself are in safety, it is also very easy to slip into the same fear when you are faced with the danger the fear of which you decried.
I believe the same principle applies to Nick in the USA.
As for your assertion about Tito and Yugoslavia, you are oversimplifying the situation.
Tito’s charisma, policies and political ability held Yugoslavia, not the Army (JNA). You can see the failure of the JNA to keep Yugoslavia together shortly after Tito disappeared from the political scene. Many in Yugoslavia, especially among the younger post-WWII generation identified themselves as Yugoslavs and I woukd hardly characterize the country as tyrannical. Who I would blame for its break up are the nationalist political opportunists, not the people, for what people want war on their doorstep?
@ John
“While some Americans did show obvious concern over our presence, the vast majority were comforted by the obvious sign (placebo or not) that their government was using all available resources to keep the population safe.”
This is the specific type of situation that most of us agree that military force is entirely acceptable. That is far different than having a constant military force being used to police the civilians though.
@ Asad:
You just hate armed force of any kind don’t you? I apply the same principle to you as I do to Will. Until you find yourself humbled by a mugger, then you will change your views on the matter.
I’ve been the target of attempted muggings numerous times as have many of my friends. I haven’t changed my views or asked for the armed guards to move in. One of the times I got away and fled, twice I was cornered, unable to run (once on my own property where I rented), brandished a weapon and the attacker backed down, and the last time it happened, I was attacked, I incapacitated my attacker and left him on the ground while I took off. All times the police were contacted. Nothing came from any of the incidents. Do I hold contempt for police forces because of this? No, this is a huge city, they do as good of job as they can with what they have at their disposal. Had this been in rich DC suburbs like Fairfax county, I would be outraged that such things had happened with such frequency. I still wouldn’t call for armed forces.
Fix the police system and problems first (or try every attempt to) before bringing in armed forces to do the job for them.
@ Brett
“Fix the police system and problems first (or try every attempt to) before bringing in armed forces to do the job for them.”
That takes time, for the time being though, a city riddled with criminals needs a surge (oh no! he used the term) of forces capable of enforcing the law.
I believe as I have previously said, that they should be paired up with police officers as I know myself that regular soldiers receive do not receive sufficent law enforcement training.
The long term approach is of course to improve the regular police forces. Dislocating army units and using them as police is extremely expensive and inefficent and is only a temporaty mesaure which I think most people on here do not understand. They seem to think that this is a permanent measure and that there will be soldiers with tanks and APCs on the streets near the Colliseum.
Hi WHYSers!
This is an uncomfortable topic for me, for the obvious reasons that Jamaica continues to grapple with crime, as part of a deadly cocktail of the illegal narcotics trade which uses countries like ours as a trans-shipment point to places like the US and Haiti as well as Colombia. Our strategic location in this multi-million and, possibly, multi-billion dollar industry along with other ineffective social programmes lead by the state, necessitates the use of the army, routinely, to help in solving crime.
Though, only obvious in certain parts of the city (Kingston), otherwise referred to as “the inner-cities”, there is still a concern over these mechanisms used by the state to control crime and police social order. Our, recently, announced “Crime Plan” makes full use of this option, further ‘normalising’ this state of affairs.
As someone with relatives in the army here, these are not easy decisions to live with, simply, because beyond the appearance of being at war, there is always the disconcerting feeling of a distinct lack of safety occassioned by the presence of army personnel as part of the regular detachment of police officers in certain parts of the country. Understandably, the situation surrounding crime in Italy makes the situation to ours comparable.
In fact, a friend and colleague has published an article (the name of the journal escapes me, now!) which addresses some of these similarities. I, certainly, do not agree, in principle, to the use of the army for these purposes but I suppose that desperate times call for desperate measures! Let us all hope we can adjust, accordingly!
Infact military ruleing & involvement create an human desaster like Indian Controlled ” KASHMIR”, as this part of the world is suffering with all kind of human right violation’s & Italian’s may learn from human tragedy of KASHMIR.
Infact India consifacte there Voting or Referandom right inviolation of 1948’s UN resulation with due cooperation of former USSR by way of useing veto power in UN Security Counsil & eltimate result is available in shape of Human desaster along with unlimited crimes against humanity by Indian army from last 60 years, as over half a million army been deployed by Indian Govt, just to crush civil rights, liberty & public openion of empty handed, innicent civilians of Kashmari society.
I hope Italy dont want that end.
@ Syed Hasan Turab,
Thanks for that! I had not even considered that possibility, earlier. The truth is that, having the army police a country almost always spells disaster, in my view. Of significance is why it is that we are not able to equip and train the police force in such a way as to elicit the (initial) responses that it is felt the army gets, which is why they are deployed in the first instance?
Message to the Italian people,
I hope before you decide to accept all that firepower in your streets, please consider:
1. Are you sure it’s really the immigrants causing your problems? We Americans were encouraged to think the same about a certain group of immigrants: the Italians.
2. What would happen if you held off on the finger pointing and took a good hard look at your government? Is it trying to distract you? We have the same problem here, with government stirring up resentment towards middle eastern and other immigrants. Could it be they want us to forget it was their own bungling that caused the 9-11 attacks?
3. As a law abiding citizen, you have nothing to hide, so why not enjoy the protection? But will you be safer? Are you sure what you see in the mirror is what the person with the gun sees? Please bear with the following, which I have shortened as best I can.
Because of my work experience, my natural reaction to army and law enforcement people is to smile and say hello to trusted colleagues and friends, even if I’m angry with how they’re being used. As a rock musician running around San Francisco in a mini skirt, I had no problems with police.
Having evolved into a boring suburban housewife, I wasn’t expecting any incidents Memorial Day Weekend, 2007 when I set off with my the 9-year old daughter on a trip to Humboldt County. But a young police officer saw a threat. After we had asked for directions, he followed us and pulled me over, suspicious because we hadn’t found the street we needed to turn on.
The California Department of Motor Vehicles (DMV) made me submit my medical records, then suspended my license on the grounds my lifelong Attention Deficit Disorder had impaired my reflexes. Getting it back took over a year. If there is any scientific basis for ADD suddenly impairing the driving of a middle aged woman with a perfect record, Google can’t detect it.
This same letter had “possess” spelled three different ways, all of them wrong. There was more evidence of ADD in that letter than ever appeared in my driving. The power to make this “medical judgement” was in the hands of people with no medical training, and barely literate.
It was wrong for me to break the law by driving to the BART station because I was late for a doctor’s appointment. But two wrongs don’t make a right. Police with surveillance devices to detect suspended licenses searched me as well as my car. They did everything they could to minimize the indignity. But when the officer had her hands on my butt, that epitomized for me the whole experience since the first traffic stop.
The same week, Osama put out a new video, which showed off his new hairstyle. They still can’t get their hands on his butt.
I just want to clarify what may have been an unfortunate choice of words in my original comment. I did NOT mean to say I blamed the administration for the 9-11 attacks. They were, of course, the fault of the perpetrators. What I meant to say is their failure to protect us squandered their chances of thwarting the attacks. Thank you.
Kim Fogei,
I dont know about your migration back ground to USA, any way question of US encouragent to think about immigrant problem, being an army & law enforcement service man you must be talking about migration of US army serving abroad like Korea, Vietnam, Germany, Yogusalivia, Kuwait, Afghanistan & Iraq.
As far as 9/11 is conscerned , I notice people like your service back ground lost there ability to sort out the facts & reason’s of this attack or being a second or third generation of US migrant society posing KNOWINGLY UNKNOWN strategy.
Therefore I request to all fellow citizen’s please be brave to face the truth dosent matter how sour it is, without knowing the facts we may not sort out the cure.
We have to extend our source of knowledge beside US media.
Any way you are most welcome in Global media with varity of openions.
no it is never good to say that army should petrol strewets of any country.Nepal have gone through the situation o army petroling streets and it was a very bad experience for many NEPALI people.i heard discussion in radio in this topic what i found that people get diverted from main issue and mainly talked about illegal migration and problem it have created to developed societies like Europe.what i want to saay in this issue is that people in east and Africa now starting to dream of migrating to europe and america since childhood and the new generation o do not see any future in there countries.they want to migrate to west at any cost.Recently Nepal have been seeeing large mass of people migrating to usa,australia.skilled man power have been leaving the country as never before seen.they live in country of migration in very crampy condion and indulge in criminal activities.this issue of migration will bound to become debate of hot and passonate debate in coming days in developed countries.but deploying army to control illegal migrants is very wrong idea and italy should use it’s police to handle this issue.
NO! Arnies deal with outer enemies, with security threats from without the nation. Allow the Armed Forces to walk the streets of a country under the PRETEXT of keeping law and order and the door has been thrown wide open to dictatorship and tyranny. This is a police-state measure. When the Armed Forces police the streets, the Police Force is no longer the protector of law and order but their lackey. For it too becomes subservient to the Armed Forces and, eventually, to a police-state. Keeping law and order within a nation’s border is the job of the various police forces and/or the national guard. But never of the Armed Forces. In the US, the Constitution forbids it, clearly and explicitly. Would I feel safer with soldiers walking the streets? Most certainly NOT! But then, is it possible for anyone to feel safe in today’s world? Has Mr. Bush made the world a safer place for anyone, here or anywhere else? Not for the people of Italy, when Mr. Berlusconi thinks it justified to have recourse to police-state measures. Measures which Mr. Bush clearly favors and has made use of. The problem is that Law-and-Order cannot be imposed upon a people except through police-state measures such as this. The price paid is the loss of Freedom and of self-determination. It is the people themselves who must have the will and the civic intent to abide by the Law and maintain Order. Nothing less works! Therein lies the very heart and meaning of genuine Freedom. Law-and-Order exist by Choice, not by Force.
hello WHYS,
well i think that army is an essential part of a nations pride.but the police is a necessity.the police is the original security whereas the army can only act in the emergency conditions.
Firstly crime cares about no one. Here in Trinidad it’s a big issue and a non issue at the same time. People just don’t seem to know what they want. We’re not at war with anyone other than the internal criminal elements that are running amok here and the Police force is grossly inadequate. I say employ all the resources you have and do what you have to do. What good is having an army marching on parades looking sharp when civilian murders run out of control and the population is crying out for action ?
army on the streets?
allo
i did write quite a consise piece on this ,this morning ,and then the red flag came up
at the bottom of it ,as it does ,when you press the submit button, with those ,
imortal words [WAITING FOR MODERATION ]
THIS WAS ANOTHER BIODEGRADEABLE / LEAD FREE NONE / VIOLENT PIECE,
YET IT WAS CENSORED ,WHY ,I LIKE MANY OTHERS THINK THAT IF A PIECE IS CENSORED YOU COULD AT THE VERY LEAST GIVE THE REASONS WHY.
I COULD UNDERSTAND WHEN I WROTE IN ABOUT THE QUESTION OF TRUST AND THE BBC ,WITH THE PIECE I DID ON THE BBC PHONE IN SCANDLE,
THE FACT WAS I WROTE IN TOTAL FOUR TIMES, BUT I GOT MODERATED EVERY TIME ,
I THINK THAT IF YOU PEOPLE WANT TO TALK ABOUT PEOPLES FREEDOMS,
YOU MIGHT WANT TO START A BIT CLOSER TO HOME?
NO SMILEY FACE ON THIS ONE THEN.
PETER MOSE FULLY TRACABLE
Hi,
Incase there is shortage of the police force, yes. In case of too much harrassement and vandalisme, yes. But not permanent, in case the police will have no place in a country.
This is global time & our society is forced to transform according to global requirements. No doubt because of easy communication we have multipal choices to pick according to our taste & requirements. This multicultural transformation will ruined so many cultures, religions & moralities with an eltimate break even point by way of opening so many culture’s, societies & brains to live in global era.
No doubt this transformation will be faster then any previous transformation’s in regard to religion’s, moralitie’s & value determination. In this process migration will play master role, dosent matter how many restriction’s we impose may not work, finally we will give up like EU countries.
To monitor this transformation process we need new package of Administrative reforms with revolutinary change’s matches with global requirements. Obiously we have to adopt concreat step by step systamitic reforms pattern to meet the challange of Global Society.
Definately we need new Legislation & Justice system too, upgrading of police’s working pattern is essental according to society & culture requirements.
Countries with huge Militries are the real trouble makers & posing a big time thred to our socities & morilitiees. No doubt militry spending’s are unproductive & extra burden over civil society, we dont need it & we canot effot it. Presance of Army in Civil society sound like trouble not a cure or systematic failour of a Government as patterns, goals & approaches of civil & Militry are totally differant.
Once again I will remind you about KASHMIR under command & controll of 500,000 Indian army & outcome is “HUMAN TRAGEDIES”. almost same way is Phalistiane, Vietnam, Afghanistan & Iraq, because of Army action’s.
This is why big time Army care takers are always in trouble & been involved in National & International crises, because of huge armies there attitute is noticeable too compairing to small army care takers while living in our Global culture & Socirty.
Illistratively behaviour Of USA, Pakistan,UK,India, Isriel, China, France & Russia is differant then other countries while living in society. This is why size of Army may please be considerd for sake of our society & moralitees, a suffocutive envirement may not be understand positive for our future generations.
May God bless USA & rest of the world.
France did so in limited circumstances some years ago and I note that in italy it is specifically in aid of the civil power. However it is a worrying state of affairs. I do believe that countries are slowly beginning to blur the edges between the military and the police. The reason we have police in the UK was as a direct result of the Peterloo massacre which was perpetrated by the Militia caused an outcry. What is also worrying is the increased presence of armed police because of “Terrorist actions”. There is marked reduction in policing by consent which I have to say is the result of ill thought out legislation. I suppose there will always be a time when the army is required to assist the police but it should never be habitual. Look forward to a time when I never see a policeman with a vest and an MP5
if is put the army in the streets is back to 1930-1940. again the second world war , why soldiers ? only need more police just more police line NYPD , CIA , FBI , M16, SWAT , etc NO need tanks , missiles , F16 , so is Italy coming back to the Totalitarism again ….maybe new SS for ilegal immigrants ?
why ? sound ridiculous , very stupid …..
just need more police , more morality , more intelligence and more money for the police .
aemy only to keep the nation in case of war or invasion etc … bur not for cities .
police is for cities
need criminal police , school police . tourist police , street police . secret police , anti mafia police , immigration police , health police , transport police , etc.
Great post I learned alot! Thanks =)