Talking Points for 23 July

Will once more takes charge. All yours.

122 Responses to “Talking Points for 23 July”

  1. 1 Will Rhodes
    July 22, 2008 at 19:33

    Hello, good evening and welcome.

    What are you itching to talk about?

  2. 2 Dennis
    July 22, 2008 at 19:50

    Hi Will…

    How is everything, i will find something later in the day.

  3. 3 Mohammed Ali
    July 22, 2008 at 19:56

    This is a very interesting story. The crime rate is so high in Liberia til the president herself had to patrol at night. What’s WHYSers reaction to this. You can follow the story on this link. http://runningafrica.com/news-07172008Crime-Rate.html

  4. 4 Will Rhodes
    July 22, 2008 at 20:03

    @ Ali

    Did you get my email?

    I sent you one yesterday but it was returned as not delivered because the yahoo server was down. The same happened with Nelsoni.

    I sent you another one today answering the questions you asked. Only a little bit of advice, you may want to think about getting a Hotmail account as well as the one you have now. That will help with communication.

  5. July 22, 2008 at 20:06

    Will, i am a Liberian who is so disenchanted about the current waves of armed robbery in Monrovia. I come to wonder what is the robust UN Mission doing in Liberia. They are responsible for security in the country. Liberia’s security sector is currently going through reform.

  6. 6 Will Rhodes
    July 22, 2008 at 20:07

    African lead?

    The Ivory Coast government is halving the salaries of its ministers to pay for a reduction in the price of fuel.

    Prime Minister Guillaume Soro said the managers of state-owned companies would also have their pay cut in half, to pay for a 10% cut in fuel prices.

    “Having heard the people’s cry from the heart, the government has decided to cut the price of fuel,” Mr Soro said.

    Following the announcement, a week-long announcement strike by public transport workers has been called off.

    On 7 July, Ivory Coast increased diesel prices by 44% and petrol prices by 29%.

    The government attributed the increase to rising global oil prices.

  7. 7 Mohammed Ali
    July 22, 2008 at 20:09

    @will, I receive one mail from you today and send you another for some advice again.

  8. 8 nelsoni
    July 22, 2008 at 20:13

    @ will. Re: African Lead. In the terms of pure economic indices, for how long is this going to be sustainable? At some point it’s very likely that the government may run into deficits. I just hope they (the Government) are not playing to the gallery or else this can end in an economic fiasco.

  9. 9 Luz Ma from Mexico
    July 22, 2008 at 20:17

    @African lead

    I would like a cut in the salaries of top-government officers here in Mexico and see that money put directly in social/economic priorities that are neglected. The millionare salaries and benefits of top-government officers is a new form of mismanagment of resources that should be put to help those who most need it.

    Here in Mexico the petro and diesel prices are low, but only because it is subsidized by the government. I don´t know what would happen when the subsidy is pull out or when the government decide to privatize the oil industry without proper regulation.

  10. 10 Mohammed Ali
    July 22, 2008 at 20:19

    @Will, I just say the mail. This is one of advantages of WHYS. I’m learning things that I never knew through the tutorshis of Will Rhodes.

  11. 11 Mohammed Ali
    July 22, 2008 at 20:26

    Israelis hit by new digger attack. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7519404.stm

  12. 12 Shirley
    July 22, 2008 at 20:44

    Will, you are right. They are taking the lead. American politicians should be so wise.

    I don’t think, though, that politicians earn as much as CEOs of corporations such as GM, Boeing, GE, or Exxon-Mobile. And aren’t their hand a bit more bloody and dirty? That’s just my impression of things.

    What if the wages of the various sectors of the work force were tied to those at the very top of the tier like an umbilical cord connecting Mom to baby? When one does well, so does the other. If workers at grocery stores were guaranteed a wage that they could live on (currently approximately $15,000 for one person and an additional $5,000 per adult or $10,000 per child beyond that in the States), and skilled jobs increased in wages beyond that, wouldn’t it drastically reduce poverty?

  13. 13 Shirley
    July 22, 2008 at 20:45

    Jonathan, It’s always fair. Will asked me before; and I answered: I stand behind the Islamic law as it is. What I don’t stand for is the twisted way that it is interpreted by extremists. I know that my views differ substantially from yours on this and several other issues. By the way, just because I am a Muslim does not mean that I do not appreciate efforts by Western countries to help Muslims and save Muslim lives.

    On another topic, I think that the reason for some confusion is that I do not announce my bedtime. If it eases your jangled nerves (stop drinking overcooked coffee!), I could let you know when I drop out of an argument remaining unconvinced or have moved on dot org.

    Hannah, there is a difference between licorice and anis. Licorice is the root of Glycyrrhiza glabra; and anise usually refers to the seed of Pimpinella anisum. Anise is a phytoestrogen and is reated to carrots, dill, fennel, and parsley, as far as I can remember. Licorice is an expectorant that can, in high doses, cause high blood pressure and lethargy. Anise is generally used to flavour licorice candies.

  14. 14 steve
    July 22, 2008 at 20:46

    Ads on the NYC about promoting islam stir controversy:


    This is a 1st amendment issue. Is the government promoting a particular religion by selling advertising space on the subway? The MTA is a state owned organization, so the first amendment would apply to anything the MTA does. However it’s not the government’s message, but rather the message of the group they sold the advertising space to.

  15. 15 Luz Ma from Mexico
    July 22, 2008 at 21:08


    By what I read in the article, I don´t think they are “promoting” Islam, but rather, trying to give more acurate information about it to the population.

    However, you get me thinking about the “setting” of the ads. I don´t see, per se, any problem that the ads are placed in the subway cars. It is not a government ad. Thinking the opposite is like saying that the government promotes any company that happens to pay for ads in the subway.

    Have the MTA sold space advertisement to other religious organizations? Because if it happens to be true… they are only being fair by selling space to the Muslim group in question.

  16. 16 nelsoni
    July 22, 2008 at 21:21

    @ Will Rhodes
    July 22, 2008 at 8:07 pm
    African lead?

    [size[i]=13]Such policies are laudable however, if they are done in the heat of the moment, in the short term the Government will please their citizens but in the long run there could be serious economic repercussions. Such things work well when there is proper budgetary allocation for such subsidies. Funds generated by the pay cut may not be enough to fund the fuel subsidies. Ivory Coast to the best of my knowledge does not produce crude oil. [/size][/i]

  17. July 22, 2008 at 21:31

    Hi will, hope you are having a good evening.

    One quick post before i head to bed in a slightly drizzley UK…

    A new arrivals pack for polish immigrants in kent advises them that if they want to strike up any conversation with the british it is best to talk about the weather.

    Here someone puts this to the test..


    So what I would like to know is if this is universal? We brits are quite happy to complain about the weather, but what everyday thing makes people in other countries mad! Has the art of the daily conversation died away? MP3 players, electronic devices and books have between them killed most casual conflab on public transport… is this a great loss?

  18. 18 steve
    July 22, 2008 at 21:34

    @ any monty python fan

    Does anyone remember the skit where someone played a joke and modified some other language to english phrase book, so the person from say Hungary, would ask questions thinking he was asking for directions, but the english he says is “I would like to fondle your buttocks” anyone remember it? I think John Cleese was the foreigner in the episode.

    There is no public conversation anyone. People are always on their cell phones or listening to their ipod. You would literally have to assault someone to speak to them.

  19. 19 Shirley
    July 22, 2008 at 21:37

    Steve, I am having a difficult time trying to view the CNN doc. I’ll try tweaking things a bit, but if I can’t read it, I might have to ask someone for help. My computer is a dino.

  20. July 22, 2008 at 21:38

    “Listen mister… if that parrot wasn’t nailed to the perch, it would have muscled up to those bars and VOOM!”


    “Yes VooooM!”

    “this parrot wouldn’t VOOM IF YOU PUT 3 THOUSAND VAULTS THROUGH IT!”

    Couldn’t resist a bit of python, and yes i do remember the sketch… 😀

  21. 21 Shirley
    July 22, 2008 at 21:39

    Also, are there pics of the ads?

  22. 22 Shirley
    July 22, 2008 at 22:13

    Steve et al, I was able to read it by scrolling through the very messy HTML of CNN’s report.

    “Siraj Wahhaj is imam of a Brooklyn mosque and a backer of ads for Islam on New York subway cars.”

    I don’t mind ICNA (I think; I should re-check), but that Siraj Wahhaj guy gives me the creeps. I think that I remember him as being a salafist. Not only that, but the language of the ads is straight up prosyletisation. “Prophet Muhammad? You deserve to know. http://www.WhyIslam.org” Can only be a missionary attempt. I hate it when anyone of any religion goes evangelist. I still need to learn about what is acceptable on a subway ad, but as a Muslim, I strongly dislike the fact that a Muslim leader is putting evangelistic ads into public places. The fact that, as far as I know, he is a virulent salafist only makes it worse. Why hasn’t ICNA washed their hands of Wahhaj?

    Another thing that I object to is the continuation of our politicians of linking Islam with terrorism: “Peter King, noting that the ads would be up during the seventh anniversary of the September 11 attacks, said, ‘I’m calling on the MTA not to have these ads…'” Another article quoted him as saying, “They (the ads) are especially shameful because the ads will be running during the seventh anniversary of September.” Give it a break. The fact atht some Muslims committed terrorism doesn’t mean that Islam as a religion endorses their actions; and it doesn’t mean that we Muslims should all crawl under rocks every September.

  23. 23 Mohammed Ali
    July 22, 2008 at 22:15

    @steve, i don’t think they are promoting islam. I think the group bought the spaces for the purpose of educating people about Islam. It will be fair for those who oppose this to buy spaces too and bring up counter ads. All that said, I respect America for the kind of society it is, I mean very accomodating. Advertising other religion countries like Iran, Saudi Arabia,etc would mean certain death.

  24. 24 Julie P
    July 22, 2008 at 22:20


    I was not able to locate any images of the ads for NYC’s subways, but I did find this on the sponsor’s website.


  25. 25 nelsoni
    July 22, 2008 at 22:23

    @ Every One

    From Blank page No 16.


    July 20, 2008 at 7:41 pm asked what would you be prepared

    to do for your family?.

    I provided this link Mother sends two sons to jail

    I think this is worth discussing, would you do anything to

    protect your family?

    (This went under the Radar so I had to bring it up again)

  26. 26 Ahmad Hammad
    July 22, 2008 at 22:26

    In countries like Pakistan, the public has a lot of stuff to discuss as the “publich conversation”. For example, there is a price-hike everyday, there’s a graph of suicides shooting up everyday, there’s unemployment, there’s the US’ unlawful and greedy-for-oil intervention, there’s instability in the government with Musharraf still in power, there’s a bulk of conspiracies working against the integrity of our great country etc…

    We have a lot of stuff to discuss. The foreigner on a visit of Pakistan may start his/her conversation from any point mentioned above….

    Hats off to the Dictatorship and the US which backs the Dictatorship in countries like Pakistan…

  27. 27 Luz Ma from Mexico
    July 22, 2008 at 22:32

    Although I don´t like prosyletisation of religion, I think there is nothing wrong with it (unless is done by a secular government).

    I think the outcome is worse when the government prevents or prohibits prosyletisation, because that is often regarded as religious persecution.

  28. 28 Luz Ma from Mexico
    July 22, 2008 at 22:34


    I couldn´t open the link. What was that about?

  29. 29 nelsoni
    July 22, 2008 at 22:39

    @ Luz Ma and every one the correct link

    Mother sent two sons to jail


    My Apologies


  30. 30 Mohammed Ali
    July 22, 2008 at 22:40

    @shirley, which group of muslims do you refer to as salafist and what’s your qualm with them? Which one of the sects of Islam do you belong to? Don’t you think that all muslims are supposed to belong to one Islam according to your holy koran?

  31. 31 Dennis
    July 22, 2008 at 22:54


    The links in Nelsoni posting on 22 July 2008 at 10.23pm…Have problems with them…

    *Just to let the moderator on duty know*

    Syracuse, New York

  32. 32 victork13
    July 22, 2008 at 22:56

    @Mohammed Ali: you correctly observed, “Advertising other religion countries like Iran, Saudi Arabia,etc would mean certain death.”

    The link that Julie P was good enough to provide to the advertising organisation contains such claims as this, “Islam, the religion of approximately 7 million Americans, promotes peace, prayer, humility as well as social, communal and family values.”

    It’s part of the usual tactic of propagandising on behalf of Islam by insisting that it, or more usually ‘true Islam’, is comprised of whatever sweet and inoffensive platitudes Muslims offer up in its praise, and that non-Muslims are gullible enough to swallow, whereas the Islam that people actually encounter (the Islam of Sunni-Shi’ite mutual slaughter in Iraq, the Islam of Darfur and the Sudanese fundamentalists, the Islam of death for apostacy, the Islam of Saudi ultra-bigotry, the Islam of 9-11, the Islam of Hamas and Hezbollah, the Islam of eternal dhimmi status for non-Muslim minorities, the Islam of the Taliban, the Islam of cruel punishments for non-crimes, the Islam of ideological anti-semitism, the Islam of gender apartheid, sexually repressed males, and homophobia, the Islam of Pakistani madrassahs, the Islam of global terrorist networks, the Islam of Danish cartoon riots, etc, etc), the Islam of the real world, that Islam is something that we are expected to allow ourselves to be persuaded is unreal, unrepresentative,and insignificant!

    No. ‘Islamophobia’ is a pretty sensible response by people unwilling to receive the gift of a violent and premature death at the hands of devout Muslims. A religion that commands its followers to fight and kill non-Muslims, and whose history records, over 1400 years, the fidelity with which those commands have been executed whenever Muslims were in a position to fight and kill, is a problem in itself.

    I don’t think that any group should be allowed to advertise by peddling demonstrable lies about itself and what it represents, in the hope of imposing on the good will of the uninformed, and in opposition to the interests of the country hosting it (and I fail to see how the ideology of Islam, a central tenet of which is the conquest and permanent subjugation of the non-Islamic world, can be of any benefit to America or any other Western nation).

  33. 33 victork13
    July 22, 2008 at 23:19

    Two positions that run counter to the usual liberal point of view on this subject: 1. racism is universal; 2. the worst racism on the planet, contrary to the prepossessions of the Western media, exists outside of the West, especially in Africa, the Arab world, south Asia, eastern Europe, and south east Asia (hmmm, isn’t that most of the planet?).

    Chinese chauvinism is legendary. People are well aware of Chinese disdain for blacks. Knowledge of their dislike for Mongolians is less widespread, but I suppose that that’s an instance of historical (but surely anachronistic?) racism (the hostility to blacks being a case of pure, disinterested racism for its own sake).

    I haven’t heard the UN or the International Olympic Committee express any view about the Chinese crackdown on blacks and Mongolians in Beijing as part of a policy of social cleansing ahead of the olympics. You only have to imagine the international outrage, the heated debates in the UN General Assembly, the human rights activists who would be parachuting into the thick of things, the castigatory sermon that would be preached by St Nelson of Robben Island, the excruciating jingles that the Rev. Jackson would serve up to the media, and the WHYSayers who would be denouncing the Great Satan for its satanically racist ways if the government of the US had targeted minority groups for discriminatory treatment.


  34. 34 Bryan
    July 22, 2008 at 23:38

    In South Africa there is a Black journalists association. Non-blacks not allowed. I don’t have a problem with that, as long as white, yellow or brown journalists would be allowed to form their own exclusive associations. I can imagine what would happen if they tried.

    The more things change…

  35. 35 nelsoni
    July 22, 2008 at 23:44

    Update on the missing Two year old Girl in Florida

    Prosecutor: Missing Fla. girl may have been killed

  36. 36 Mohammed Ali
    July 22, 2008 at 23:47

    @mother, Carol Saldinack is the most courageous mother I’ve heard of on planet earth. I have no doubts in my mind that she did the right thing in ensuring that her two sons face the full weight of the law for inflicting such pains on another person. If other mothers were like her, their sons will be a bit afraid to commit crimes. I’ll have to say that I absolutely admire her stance in ensuring that her children are penalised for the crime they committed. Shame on those family members who are castigating her for her bold and lawful act.

  37. 37 Julie P
    July 22, 2008 at 23:57


    Your link worked! Congratulations!

  38. 38 Mohammed Ali
    July 22, 2008 at 23:59

    @victork 13, I’ll have to agree with you. If such discriminatory acts against were carried out in the west, we’ll shout foul with the loudest mouth. @Bryan, we blacks are racists. For example, in my country Liberia, the allows only people of negro descend to become citizens. Isn’t that racism to the core?

  39. 39 victork13
    July 23, 2008 at 00:19

    Re the Ivory Coast cutting ministers’ salaries: the CIA World Factbook estimates the Ivory Coast’s 2007 Gross Domestic Product (GDP) as being slightly over $32 billion. A larger and more complex country like Britain has about 100 government Ministers. I don’t think the Ivory Coast is likely to have many more. Let’s suppose that the Ivory Coast, despite being poorer than Britain, pays up to 100 Ministers $1 million each per annum (far in excess of what British Ministers earn), $100 million in total. And, just for fun, let’s make the pay cut absolute, and assume that in future Ministers will work in exchange for the smiles and thanks of a grateful people. That would amount to a grand saving of 0.003% of the country’s total GDP.

    How can even the most optimistic socialist and lover of state control of the economy (those of you talking about government interfering in wages) suppose that this cut (which in reality will be much smaller than 0.003%) is going to make a significant difference to the economic well-being of ordinary Ivorians?

    As for the salaries being reduced to lower the price of fuel: the Ivory Coast exports oil. It earned some $1.3 billion in 2006 from oil. That’s many times more than it can expect to recoup from cutting Ministerial salaries, to nothing even. The Ivory Coast’s problem is that its economy is not sufficiently diversified, with agriculture accounting for over 25% of GDP. A more diverse economy, with additional areas of production more profitable than agriculture, would do more to help Ivorians cope with rising energy costs by increasing their individual wealth and reducing the need to export oil. And the free market is the best way to achieve that greater prosperity than any number of insignificant (and probably insincere) stunts cutting wages, or any amount of state intervention in regulating the economy.

    And high wages can have a useful role, even in the sphere of politics, by increasing the competiton for office and therefore the pool of governmental talent (assuming the existence of a political free market, i.e. democracy), making politics an acceptable career choice for those who could earn good salaries in other professions or abroad (people scream about Africa’s brain drain, and then support, in this area at least, uncompetitive wages that will contribute to that brain drain), and making politics a viable career option for people who are talented but poor.

  40. 40 Omunyaruguru
    July 23, 2008 at 00:21

    @ VickorK, interesting that my 9 year old son is also called Victor K.

    “racism is universal”

    Let me reiterate something I said several days ago.
    Society by nature will always look for lines of cleavage. If it is not color, then it will be religion, tribe, region, village, clan (somalis are basically a single tribe divided on clan lines). You are therefore not saying anything new.

    By the way, shock of your lives – The reason the western world has a high level of accomodation for differences is because western civilization is founded on christianity. The single most important tenet in christianity is LOVE.

  41. 41 nelsoni
    July 23, 2008 at 00:23

    @ Julie P July 22, 2008 at 11:57 pm

    Thanks I am still trying to get used to this HTML stuff.


  42. 42 Julie P
    July 23, 2008 at 00:28


    I downloaded the same too. I haven’t tried it yet, but one day I will.

    Here is video on the missing two year old girl in Florida.


  43. 43 nelsoni
    July 23, 2008 at 00:31

    @ victork13
    July 23, 2008 at 12:19 am

    Please read My post about the Ivorian pay cut and fuel subsidies here

  44. 44 Shirley
    July 23, 2008 at 00:32

    Mohammed Ali, have you been to the website touted in the ads? It is a prosyletising site. It aims at convincing readers that Islam is the one true religion. I don’t like evangelism, regardless of who does it. Btw, I am a Shia Muslim. I don’t believe in this “just Muslim” nonsense. If a Muslim believes that there were 12 divinely appointed successors to Prophet Muhammad etc., then he is a Shia Muslim. If a person believes that one must adhere to either the Hanafi, Maliki, etc. school of thought, then one is a Sunni Muslim. If a Muslim believes that one must either derive his own rulings from the Qur’an and ahadith (leaving aside other sources) or find out which passages of the Qur’an or ahadith support every fatwa abd believes that God has a literal face and literal hands and literally sits on a literal throne, then he is a salafist, God save us all from them. For me to go about preaching divine succession when someone else believes in the Caliphate while insisting that both of us are “just Muslim” is pre-school silliness.

    Luz María, I am all for freedom of speech as a governmental policy. I just wish that Muslims had the self-control enough not to go about missionising and trying to convert people. When I was young and went with my family on Christian evangelisation trips to local cities, I got a sick feeling in my stomach because I felt that what I was doing was discourteous and wrong. I still feel the same way. Evangelising is discourteous and wrong. Not illegal, just impolite.

  45. 45 nelsoni
    July 23, 2008 at 00:41

    @ Julie P

    thanks for the link

    Just In Case you missed it, pls read how a mother helped her two sons in into jail here What do you think? Did she do the

    right thing? How many mothers in the world would do the same?

  46. 46 Virginia Davis
    July 23, 2008 at 00:46

    @Will, as moderator: Please advise VictorK13 that his posts are long.

    Re: what to talk about. I was taught not to, at least start out with, religion, politics, or money. Weather is good….. (smile)

    Advertising. Here in Portland, we have “Poetry In Motion.” As for how to find out about Islam, doesn’t bother me.


    You’ve just done it, Virginia. 🙂

  47. 47 Mohammed Ali
    July 23, 2008 at 00:48

    Just read this very interesting story. TRAFFIC DEATHS FALL AS GAS PRICES CLIMB. I couldn’t get the exact page cuz I’m blogging from my mobile phone. It is on YAHOO NEWS. Can someone please check and get the exact page?

  48. 48 nelsoni
    July 23, 2008 at 00:50

    @ Shirley
    July 23, 2008 at 12:32 am

    It’s things like this that confuses the non-Muslims. The Shia Muslims say one thing, the Sunni Muslims say another thing.

    Some justify the Killing of “Innocent people” others condemn it. In Islam there are now so many view points, that one does

    not whom to believe any more.

  49. 49 Julie P
    July 23, 2008 at 01:00


    Every once and while I hear about things like that. It’s a courageous act for the mother to undertake. Sometimes doing the right thing isn’t always pretty.

  50. 50 Mohammed Ali
    July 23, 2008 at 01:01

    @sunni and shia, this segregation in islam the major cuz of Iraqis slaughtering themselves in a manner that I would not do to a chicken, it is the reason why the Lebanese don’t know what is peace, it is the reason why the muslim world is at each other’s throat. I see no reason why a group of people who claimed to have one holy book, the koran, and belong to a religion that originated from one God will slaughter each other and treat non muslims as animals.

  51. 52 victork13
    July 23, 2008 at 01:13

    @Omunyaruguru: I think that Christianity is one part of the three-fold inheritance that defines Western civilisation, the others being Roman traditions of law, sovereignty, and republican government, and the heritage of Greek intellect and art. Jerusalem, Athens and Rome.

    The difference between a faith like Christianity and a creed (ideology?) like Islam is very nicely expressed in attitudes to adultery. Islam’s is simple and direct: murder the adulterer. Even educated and intelligent Muslims will defend that line on this forum – unsurprisingly because it is incontestably Islamic orthodoxy (all the more reason not to be a Muslim, I say).

    What a contrast Islam’s characteristic bloodlust presents to the spirit shown in the story of the woman taken in adultery: “…he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. 8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. 9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. 10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? 11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.”

  52. 53 victork13
    July 23, 2008 at 01:17

    @Omunyaruguru (cont.):
    From the stoning of adulterers alone you can extrapolate much of the cruelty, intolerance and violence that characterise Islam today, as they have in the past. From the story just given, you can divine the exact path of the moral development of Christianity, which has been a flowering into kindness, care and, the word you used, love. It is always possible to condemn crimes and sins by Christians by appealing, as Christ taught, to the spirit – not the letter – of Christianity; Islam’s crimes and sins are often taken directly from the Koran and the example of Muhammed in the hadith and the sunnah. That’s why, for all the dreams of Western liberals, Islam cannot be reformed: there isn’t a core to it that’s worth reforming. It can only be endured or abolished. In the West, I opt for abolition.

    btw, at one point in history Muslims were just as much the heirs ot the traditions of Greek and Roman civilisation as the West, given that Jihad conquered large parts of the Roman Empire . But, eventually, Muslims turned their backs on the Greco-Roman inheritance, which was inevitable given Islam’s inability to tolerate anything that is not-Islam. Islamic civilisation declined, faded and died as a result, and has counted for nothing in the world for at least 500 years.

  53. 54 nelsoni
    July 23, 2008 at 01:18

    Update On Victims on South African Xenophobic Attacks

    South African police evict migrants

    I think it’s better they to return home rather than gamble with their lives in South Africa. If the South African Immigration authorities were serious about their jobs how did all these immigrants sneak into the Country? They had to wait for the xenophobobic attacks to happen first before they remembered their duties.

  54. 55 victork13
    July 23, 2008 at 01:29

    @Virginia: you know, you’re perfectly free (and I assume able) to advise me yourself. I’ve ackowledged submitting long posts to Will (and others) in the past not because of their status as moderators but because they’ve made a valid point. But I do think a better point to get upset about would be that someone’s submitted an irrelevant, rambling, insulting, obscene, racist, sexist, libellous, incoherent, or inappropriately personal (intimate personal history etc) post.

    Anyway, just to get in the spirit of things I’ve broken my last post into two sections. but to be honest I’ve never really bought the line that dividing the same post into halves, thirds or quarters makes it shorter (or easier?) to read than keeping it as a unit.

  55. 56 Mohammed Ali
    July 23, 2008 at 01:31

    @nelsoni, thanks for the link. So how did you do that, instead of giving the web page address you give the title and will lead to the story. I want to learn that.

  56. 57 Pangolin-California
    July 23, 2008 at 01:33

    Lest anyone think that Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, and Sikhism have all the crazies check out The Unitarian Jihad Name Generator where Unitarians get their randomly assigned Jihad names to use on their war on religious intolerance.

    In the Unitarian Jihad detainees question the guards and are forced to listen to the entire answer and then are expected to explain how they feel about it. Usually several committee meetings are required.

    A vegetarian potluck will be served afterwards.

  57. 58 Luz Ma from Mexico
    July 23, 2008 at 01:44

    I also dislike evangelization. I think, like you, that it is very impolite. One of my sisters-in-law is a Christian Evangelist (I am Catholic). Everytime I see her she tries to convert me ( in very subtle way). I always tried to be polite to her, but made my point clear that I was not interested. Last year I suffered a miscarriage and was put in bedrest for a week. She came to my house the next day I was released from the hospital; she brought a religious book and started preaching and praying. Since I didn´t ask for it, and I was dealing with grief and loss, I have to be very impolite and told her to butt off!!! I had enough!!! Well, she didn´t speak to me for two months (Thank God!). No wonder, many people dislike religious fanatics.

  58. 59 Will Rhodes
    July 23, 2008 at 01:44

    HTML Xtra > Clipboard > URL with name, Ali 😉

  59. 60 Will Rhodes
    July 23, 2008 at 01:45

    Luz Ma – I don’t mean this in an offensive way – but how can one convert a Catholic?

  60. 61 victork13
    July 23, 2008 at 01:49

    @Nelsoni: yes, lax immigration policies certainly played a part in this.

    I assume that when the story refers to ‘immigrants’ it actually means ‘illegal immigrants,’ since few countries in the world send legal migrants to repatriation centres.

    A tic of BBC reporting, I suppose (‘illegal’ is judgemental and therefore wrong). When covering the US illegals are usually described as ‘undocumented workers,’ which is even more misleading.

    I’m getting the hang of these short posts.

  61. 62 Will Rhodes
    July 23, 2008 at 01:57

    @ Victor


    The words used “undocumented’ is because illegal isn’t quite true. A better, yet disconcerting term, would be un-status.

    With all the visa’s flying around these days – one can be a visitor, tourist ad infinitum, resident, and a plethora of other names or statii so one must have a status. So if you are none of the above you are un-status.

  62. 63 Luz Ma from Mexico
    July 23, 2008 at 01:59

    I don´t know if I made a mistake by using the verb “convert”? I meant that she was trying to convince me to switch to her religion.

    Did I got your question right? Or you were asking how can one convert a Catholic since they are too reluctant to change their faith?

  63. 64 Will Rhodes
    July 23, 2008 at 02:02

    Both really, Luz Ma.

    Catholics are of the Christian faith so you would still, in effect, be a Christian.

    I just cannot see a Catholic changing church, my mother did – well she married my dad and was booted from the church. But that is slightly different.

  64. 65 nelsoni
    July 23, 2008 at 02:12

    @ Mohammed Ali. I used BBcode add on for Mozilla fire fox Browser which I downloaded on the recommedation of Will Rhodes the Blog Master 😉

  65. 66 nelsoni
    July 23, 2008 at 02:15

    @ VictorK13, Please get a hang on these short posts. They kind of make life easier for a lot of us. Reading the long posts while scrolling down sometimes makes some of us dizzy. I envy your typing skills. If you continue at this rate, very soon you will have no finger prints. Cheers 😉

  66. 67 nelsoni
    July 23, 2008 at 02:19

    @ Will Rhodes and Luz ma. Actually every Christian is a Catholic. It’s just that not all Christians are “Roman Catholic”. Try and check up the meaning of the word “Catholic”, you will understand what I am talking about.

  67. 68 victork13
    July 23, 2008 at 02:25

    @Will and Luz: haven’t evangelical protestants had a measure of success with Catholics in several parts of Latin America?

    I don’t much care when one group of Christians attempts to convert another (seems impudent and gratuitous – though I always resist the temptation to tell Jehovah’s Witnesses that according to my church they are a heretical sect of little account and less orthodoxy, and would be well-advised to embrace the true faith). I think it’s especially absurd to attempt to convert a Catholic, Anglican or member of the Greek Orthodox Church, since the three churches represent Christianity at its most formally orthodox (the way I like it).

    The Catholic Church’s position, though very insulting and ungenerous, is at least hard-headed and clear: it is the Church; every other Christian group is defective and suffering from some degree of heresy by virtue of not being in communion with Rome. Christian unity means everybody understanding this, renouncing heresy, and becoming Catholic. They don’t recognise the validity of Anglican orders (but still protest about women priests!?!). I’ve never been able to understand how the Roman Catholic Church is any more orthodox than the Greek Orthodox Church, since the Greeks are every bit as historic as the Catholics. I think that’s why Rome has always disliked the Greeks: they’ve undermined its pretensions to universality for the last 1,000 years. But I digress.

  68. 69 Luz Ma from Mexico
    July 23, 2008 at 02:25


    Well, yes, I am a Christian, but there are big differences between Catholicism, Protestantism, Orthodoxy and Restoriatorism (I think that are all the major branches of Christianity). I consider that, in fact, they are religions independent from each other.

    As you may know, Catholicism is very strong in Latin America, especially Mexico. The Virgen de Guadalupe and misionaries are the reason why Catholicism was embraced by indigenous people during Spanish Colonialism. However, many Catholics here are only Catholics by name (by this I mean that they do not go to Church and follow the creed and rites).

    In the last decades there has been penetration of other brances of Christianity and many Catholics have “converted” to Protestatism and other Christian sects. My sister-in-law was born Catholic and she changed “religion” because she wanted.

  69. 70 Shirley
    July 23, 2008 at 02:26

    Mohammed Ali, there were Shia and Sunni Muslims in Iraq for ages. They did not start to kill each other until the US invasion opened the doors to foreign al Qaeda infiltration and the US itself armed Shia death squads after the al Qaeda infiltrators bombed a major Shia mosque in Samarra. The Shia-Sunni infighting in Iraq has been more of a convenience for the invadors who wish to prolong their occupation. It is not far-fetched, in my mind, to assume that the beneficiaries of such infighting are the cause of the same.

  70. 71 Will Rhodes
    July 23, 2008 at 02:26


    The Roman Catholic Church, officially known as the Catholic Church,[1][2][3] is the world’s largest Christian church and represents over half of all Christians and one-sixth of the world’s population.[4][5] It is made up of one Western church (the Latin Rite) and 22 Eastern Catholic churches, divided into 2,782 jurisdictional areas around the world.[6] The Church looks to the Pope, currently Benedict XVI, as its highest human authority in matters of faith, morality and Church governance.[7][8] The Church community is composed of an ordained ministry and the laity.[9] Both groups may become members of religious communities such as the Dominicans, Carmelites and Jesuits.[9]


    😉 😛

  71. 72 Luz Ma from Mexico
    July 23, 2008 at 02:27

    You are absolutely right. The correct term is Roman Catholic. I meant to say Roman Catholic/Rome Catholicism in my previous posts.

  72. 73 Will Rhodes
    July 23, 2008 at 02:30

    Victor, I think you do not digress. Understanding of the whole church is what is needed. Which denomination you wish to choose id a matter of personal choice, no?

    I get what you mean, Luz Ma 🙂

  73. 74 Will Rhodes
    July 23, 2008 at 02:34


    Doctors in England and Wales are being told not to hand out antibiotics for common coughs and colds to help save the NHS millions of pounds a year.

    The over-prescription of antibiotics has been linked to the development of “superbugs” that resist treatment.

    Some 38m prescriptions for antibiotics were written by doctors in the UK in 2007, costing the NHS £175m.

    This has been a pet hate of mine for so long I cannot remember when it started.

    I have never taken my children to the Drs for a cold – ever. I don’t see the need. After 3 days you can determine whether they need a Dr but plenty of rest and lots of fluid should be all they need.

    With MRSA on the rise, the over prescribing of antibiotics have made the bacteria resistant – don’t parents get told this by their family GP?

  74. 75 nelsoni
    July 23, 2008 at 02:36

    @ VictorK13, should WHYS decide to give awards to bloggers, you will be recommended for one.

  75. 76 Luz Ma from Mexico
    July 23, 2008 at 02:42

    Thanks Will. I was going to post that. Christianity is also complex and confusing. I studied history of Christianity when I was in high school, I thought then… this is a mess!

    Victork: Indeed Evangelical Protestants have had good success in Latin America. However, I have know Protestants here in Mexico that, although they left Roman Catholicism, they still venerate the Virgin of Guadalupe (her day is the most important Church festivity for Mexican Roman Catholics).

  76. 77 Luz Ma from Mexico
    July 23, 2008 at 02:52

    I agree with you. I think they should be used carefully and definetly not for colds!!

    However, I don´t like that some people “satanize” antibiotics. One women I met didn´t gave her daughter antibiotics when the poor child had an ear infection. After a week of pain and cry, she took her to the ER. Her ear drum was almost perforated.

  77. 78 Tom
    July 23, 2008 at 02:52

    @ VictorK,

    As an ethnic Chinese, I am equally amazed and dismayed at reading the pledge forcing Beijing bar owners not to serve “blacks” and mongolians. It doesn’t make an ounce of logical sense that a country is hosting an event as international as the Olympics, is fully engaged in business deals in Africa, and is keen to improve its PR following the crackdown in Tibet, and to project itself as a “harmonious” society, would issue such an offsensive, divisive and potentially embarrassing edict is introduced at a time the world’s eyes are focusing on its every move.

    Surely like many places there are entrenched racism in Chinese society derived from the people’s pride in its culture and its glorious past, but the current generation of Chinese are obsessed with their idols in American pop culture, the NBA, Major League baseball European and South American football, many of whom are people of colours. People in China may not have the same level of direct personal exposure to other races, but their xenophobia is no more legendary than those in other countries – past lynchings in the US, apartheid in South Africa, neo-nazism in Germany and Russia, to name a few. None of which could be condoned.

    It will be interesting to see if the wordings of the original pledge is available and translated somewhere, and whether or not the Chinese government or the Olympic Committee will issue any comments regarding this poisonous allegation.

    Whether this edict is official or issued by one of those rogue corrupt officers, as a Chinese and as a human being, I’d totally distance myself from it.

  78. 79 Bob in Queensland
    July 23, 2008 at 03:01

    To paraphrase Will,

    “Hello, good morning and goodbye!”

    I won’t be around much today–I leave in a few minutes to create a month’s worth of greenhouse gases by driving into Brisbane for a doctor’s appointment.

    However, two things I want to say quickly:

    First off, I’d like to take the BBC to task for their tabloid headline on the “no antibiotics for colds and flu” story. You lead by implying this is a cost cutting exercise but the facts are: 1) antibiotics are totally ineffective against viruses like colds and flu anyway and 2) overprescription of antibiotics is a major problem because the diseases they WILL cure are now becoming resistant due to the over use. There might be some cost saving involved here but I’ll bet you a penny to a pound that this is NOT the main goal as you story implies.

    Second, just a note to say how nice it was to hear Jonathan in SF’s voice on air last night. Good’un mate! The only problem is, as you were in the second half of the show you might be able to guess that I’m suffering sleep deprivation today!

  79. 80 victork13
    July 23, 2008 at 03:05

    @Shirley: you can be very funny (unintentionally) when you begin with a conclusion (the US is to blame for the chaos in Iraq) and hunt about for premises, however flimsy, to support it.

    To most people with even a superficial acquaintance with Iraq’s history over the past 30 years the reason there was no Sunni-Shia violence before the occupation was very simple: Saddam Hussein. Whatever his faults, in fact, because of his faults – cruel, crafty, violent, murderous – he kept the country terrified and in good order, especially the Kurdish and Shi’ite parts of it. Look it up in a book.

    One step forward in that you seem prepared to admit that most of the killing of Iraqis is by other Iraqis. But two steps back for claiming that it’s all America’s fault for arming Shi’ite death squads. Really? Is there proof of this outside of your imagination? I suppose the US also inculcated them with the motivation to commit their murders? I’m surprised that you haven’t claimed that the US also armed Al Quaeda, since it can’t be coincidence – to adopt your method of ‘reasoning’ – that they only became important actors after the occupation. It’s no more farfetched, or absurd, than any of your other claims. Bin Laden has obviously not been caught because he’s a valuable CIA asset. Now I understand why Bush and Cheney are war criminals!

    What I don’t understand: why is it that Americans can manipulate half-witted and suggestible Iraqis so completely – according to your none too flattering portrayal of Iraqis – but the Iraqis are unable to exert any kind of control over the Americans (who are devilishly cunning, just as you’d expect of a Great Satan)? I just love it when people who throw out the ‘R’ word on a whim and believe themselves to be saintly anti-racists make paranoia-fuelled arguments, no, gratuitous assertions, no, verbalised fantasies, with a distinct racist sub-text (brown-skinned desert primitives with sun-baked brains no match for effortlessly superior American Aryans. Heil Bush!).

    And speaking of ‘Aryans’, you might also want to consult another book while you’re in that library about a country called ‘Iran’, which has also played a role in fomenting the chaos in Iraq, a country that nobody has been mad enough to claim is in fact an agent of the American supermen and the Zionist entity – well, not yet.

    Thanks for a good laugh before turning in for the night.

  80. 81 victork13
    July 23, 2008 at 03:07

    @Nelsoni: your cheque’s in the post.

  81. 82 Julie P
    July 23, 2008 at 03:12

    @Colds and Doctors,

    My doctor told me as a child there was nothing he could prescribe for me or anyone for the cold. Antibiotics do nothing for them you will only build up anti-bodies to the antibiotics, which will do you far more harm than you know. Drink plenty of fluids, and get plenty of rest. Decades later he turned out to be right.

  82. 83 Luz Ma from Mexico
    July 23, 2008 at 03:21

    Good morning/evening/night everyone! I´m off to sleep. Tomorrow is my first day at my new job. I don´t know if I am going to be able to listen to WHYS, probably not 😦

    Keep on the good conversation! 😉

  83. 84 Julie P
    July 23, 2008 at 03:39

    Will, who was the moderator supposed to be for this forum? I assume it wasn’t you.

  84. 85 Jonathan (cool, gray San Francisco)
    July 23, 2008 at 03:44

    @Luz Ma~~

    Hey, good luck at your new job! How exciting! Do tell us all about it afterward, OK?

  85. 86 Roberto
    July 23, 2008 at 03:45

    there were Shia and Sunni Muslims in Iraq for ages. They did not start to kill each other until the US invasion opened the doors to foreign al Qaeda infiltration

    ——- Saddam put down the Shia when he took over the country. Remember, the Sunni’s were only about 30% of Iraq proper.

    He also drafted and put Shias in the front lines in the brutal war with Iran, fellow Shias. Made them cannon fodder in a war they didn’t wish to fight.

    The Shias lost out in the early bloody power struggle of Islam and are the minority of those deemed of Islamic faith, so any notion that Sunnis and Shias in Iraq or any where have never been in conflict with each other is simply not true.

    It is true that the US invasion and lack of security oversight opened the doors to the current conflict, but like the Yugo mess upon the death of Tito, these disputes had been long simmering just waiting for another boilover point.

    I tend to think much of the people would prefer to get along as is the general history. However, now and again the power mongers come along when conditions are ripe and whip up the flames of differences, so bloody conflicts break out.

  86. 87 Jonathan (cool, gray San Francisco)
    July 23, 2008 at 03:50

    @Bob Q.–

    Well, thanks very much for noticing! I shall never forget my “first time,” ha ha. You actually stayed up to hear me? I don’t think I did at all well, perhaps my fault and perhaps not, but it was exciting.

  87. 88 Will Rhodes
    July 23, 2008 at 03:51


    A little survey if you will:

    Only one question so that is how small it is.

    What do you think about the experiment we have ongoing here at WHYS with the blog being open 24/7?

    You enjoy it.

    You have no real opinion of it.

    Any other comments welcome.

  88. 89 Will Rhodes
    July 23, 2008 at 04:03

    Mods –

    I am stepping away from the computer for a little while so if you see any posts to be moderated can you do them, please?

    I will keep refreshing the page every now and again so if a mod hasn’t got to them I will publish.


  89. 90 Shirley
    July 23, 2008 at 04:05

    Night-time WHYS: I like the feeling of cat away and mice playing. I also enjoy freedom from directed topics.

  90. 91 Luz Ma from Mexico
    July 23, 2008 at 04:13


    Maybe tomorrow won´t be my first day at the office after all. The hurracaine Dolly is comming our way (we are in yellow alert) so probably everythin will be shut down. I´ll know until tomorrow morning 😦

    About your “first time at WHYS”… my first time was horrendous, I was nervous so my English was not so good…LOL.. but then, they called me again another time, so I suppose that, by the standards, I wasn´t that bad.

    Sorry I couldn´t hear you. A friend came by my house, unannounced, at the middle of the broadcast. I missed half the show. 😦

  91. 92 Dennis
    July 23, 2008 at 04:38

    Good night Will and the rest of my dear friends….

    Good “day” to whomever is on moderator duty…..

    Syracuse, New York

  92. 93 Jonathan (cool, gray San Francisco)
    July 23, 2008 at 04:42


    Believe me, by depriving you of my moment of fame your neighbor did us both a favor.

    I hope you won’t be saying “Hello, Dolly” tomorrow!

  93. 94 Jonathan (cool, gray San Francisco)
    July 23, 2008 at 04:52

    Will– re the 24 hour WHYS blogathon– Of course I enjoy it, if you couldn’t tell by my enthusiastic participation. Is the future of the noble experiment in question? Will I have to return to reading, viewing films, and having sex? Oh, say it isn’t so!

  94. 95 Luz Ma from Mexico
    July 23, 2008 at 05:11


    Thanks and LOL 😉
    But your “moment” will be eternal thanks to the WHYS podcast 😉

    I am off, finally, to sleep.

  95. 96 nelsoni
    July 23, 2008 at 06:08

    @ Will. Its an excellent idea to have the WHYS blog run 24-7. It does not alienate the other users who live in different time zones, they can still actively participate on the blog even if the show is over. A BBC promo says “long after the news may have ended, the discussion never stops on our blog, @world have your say dot com with voice over by Ros’. I don’t think it’s an experiment. It has come to stay. @ victork13, your award will be for writing long posts that could be mistaken for essays. 😉

  96. 97 nelsoni
    July 23, 2008 at 06:21

    @ Shirley “I love the feeling of the Cat away and the mice playing”. So I can safely assume that the WHYS team is the “Cat” while the bloggers are the “mice”? Thankfully this “Cat” will never eat “mice” because without the “mice”, they will be no show, there will be no one to blog, Ros and co will not have any one to call up for the show, so we are the Life of WHYS. No “mice” and there will be no ” hello, i’m Ros’ Atkins, welcome to the BBC’S world have your say …”

  97. 98 Tom
    July 23, 2008 at 07:54

    @ Will:

    What do you think about the experiment we have ongoing here at WHYS with the blog being open 24/7?

    It’s good. I didn’t know that this’ been a recent experiment. If this blog isn’t open 24/7, we on the antipodal side of the earth would be missing out on some real time discussions.

  98. 99 Mohammed Ali
    July 23, 2008 at 08:06

    @WILL, The WHYS blog rolling 24/7 is an excellent idea. I’m already addicted to it and I have a lawsuit prepare for whoever is going stop the 24/7 WHYS blog. Cheers.

  99. 100 Will Rhodes
    July 23, 2008 at 08:08

    Thanks everyone for another good conversation. It’s after 4 am here so even I have to head for bed.

    I will catch you after the gap.

    G’night. 🙂

  100. 101 Mohammed Ali
    July 23, 2008 at 08:09

    @Tom, are you currently residing in China? If so, do people in China have the freedom of expressing their views on programs like WHYS?

  101. 102 Mohammed Ali
    July 23, 2008 at 08:14

    @Will, before you sleep, don’t forget I need to learn how to use the BBCode xtra add-on. I envy nelsoni and others. G’night to you.

  102. July 23, 2008 at 08:17

    @ Mohamed Ali
    What do you mean been Exactly about “Been addicated to WHYS” I thought one can only be addicted to smoking and alcohol

  103. 104 Mohammed Ali
    July 23, 2008 at 08:33

    @abdi, in my opinion been addicted to something means that you can’t easily do without it. I don’t think it is restricted to drugs or alcohol. I spend the most part of my night blogging on WHYS and during the day when I’m not very busy at job, WHYS is the next work I have.

  104. 105 selena
    July 23, 2008 at 09:02


    I will add my voice to the anti long post brigade…

    Your posts are too long and breaking them up does not change the fact that they are not in conversational style.

    Why don’t you start a blog and direct people who want to read long posts to it?

    I do not read long posts and feel cheated that I don’t get your point of view.

    Please, please, please… 🙂

  105. July 23, 2008 at 09:53

    @VictorK 13,
    I actually enjoy your postings because they make good and exciting reading. Let me add my voice to the growing number of calls for you to make them in a conversational style.

  106. 107 Bob in Queensland
    July 23, 2008 at 10:15

    Well, having just arrived home, a belated response to Will’s survey.

    For me, 24 hour blogging is pretty much essential if I’m going to participate. The time difference means the my “waking hours” coincide mainly with the “closed hours” for the BBC WHYS team.

    …so count me as an “enjoy it” with the additional comment that I’d rarely be participating without it.

  107. July 23, 2008 at 11:03

    Hi Will,

    In the run up to the handing over of the oil rich region of Bakassi, a point of discord between Cameroon and Nigeria, coming up in August; there is concern that the handing over of this region from Nigeria to Cameroon in compliance with the ICJ ruling will be blighted by violence orchestrated by the Niger Delta militants.
    Do you think we can deliberate on the increasing violence in the region? Personally I think all resource rich regions, Bakassi inclusive, have the potential to become trouble spots and my country Cameroon seems to have inherited one in claiming ownership of Bakassi.

  108. 109 selena
    July 23, 2008 at 11:09

    A24 hour blog is necessary for global participation.

  109. 110 1430a
    July 23, 2008 at 11:29

    hello everyone,
    first of all thanks to all the writers and bloggers of WHYS for those encouraging words yesterday.it was really a great help.
    Secodly Yesterday was a very sad day in the history of India as the Bribe allegations ashmed the country’s politics and parliament.on the other hand it was a great day in the history of Nepal as Nepal got its first President.He is being sworn in today.

  110. 111 Bryan
    July 23, 2008 at 11:45

    Mohammed Ali July 22, 2008 at 11:59 pm,

    Yes, It’s disappointing to hear that about Liberia. Contrast that with the USA, which accepts any race on earth.

    nelsoni July 23, 2008 at 12:41 am,

    I agree 100% with that mother’s actions. She put her concern for the victim and justice ahead of her sons. This is a lady with a conscience, who knows the difference between right and wrong and has the courage of her convictions. A person like that simply cannot keep silent under such circumstances. Wish there were more like her.

  111. 112 Bryan
    July 23, 2008 at 11:49

    Reminds me of a guy whose two teenage sons took his car for a joyride without driving licences. He took them to the police. I’m pretty sure those two grew up OK.

  112. 113 Pangolin- California
    July 23, 2008 at 12:16

    @ Malthusian writing by the New York Times: Mideast Facing Choice Between Crops and Water

    It seems that when your population quadruples in 50 years and is expected to double again in the next 50 there might be problems getting enough food from a limited supply of fresh water. Who knew?

    The New Yorker is chiming in with an article titled The Last Bite that claims that there is a possibility of famine but that it is somehow due to overproduction. I can’t figure that logic but there it is.

    Oh, well if food gets too expensive you can always take a second mortgage on the house to help while everything adjusts. Right?

  113. 114 Pangolin- California
    July 23, 2008 at 12:25

    Israel- I fear any border issues in Nigeria will be used as an excuse to speculate on the world oil market. A RPG attack on a Nigerian facility can shift the world oil markets by billions of dollars and anybody who knows the date of that shift can make money.

    I’m sure it’s happened before and will happen more in the future.

  114. 115 Shaun in Halifax
    July 23, 2008 at 13:33

    How about an IT lead?

    I came across an article saying that in a recent survey, one in three IT administrators said that they or one of their colleagues have used top-level admin passwords to pry into confidential or sensitive information at their workplace.

    So, should IT people be required to take some sort of hippocratic oath or stronger security clearance?

    Here’s the Full Story

  115. July 23, 2008 at 14:05

    Man sorry I missed this last night.

    @ VictorK

    A) How was Iraq formed? B) How was Iraq able to hold back Iran, A Shia dominated and controlled nation, and C) Why would the answer to A & B have so much concern over the situation prior to air flight and nuclear weapons and globalization.

    Quick answers. A) 1920’s Great Brittan said ” you three regions of warring nomads, you are now a country because we said so.” The Kurds were not and were never treated like “Saddam’s own people.”

    B) In the 80’s the US said, The Iranians hate us and they are trying to take the oil fields in Iraq. We need a figure ruthless and tough enough to stand up to them, and be friendly to the US as a trading partner.

    C) Was already answered. Without Oil there would be no concern about human rights, no offering of technology that we later fear, and really no such thing as the middle east in the western news.

    That is hugely abridged version of the grand chess match that has become the middle east.

  116. 117 Robert
    July 23, 2008 at 14:11


    A hippocratic oath won’t work. Somebody who is likely to look at sensitive data is also likely to say the oath with figures crossed behind thier backs.

    What is needed is
    1)Contract explaining what they can and can’t do with the access.
    2)People to be fired for violating this
    3)People to be taken to court over the invasion of privarcy or leaking of information.

    Only when the cost of doing these activities increases will there be an incentive for these people to stop.

  117. 118 Tom
    July 23, 2008 at 14:21

    @ Mohammad Ali

    My childhood was spent in Hong Kong but have been living in Australia for the past 20 years.

    I don’t know anyone who currently resides in China, but from what I’ve been hearing this worldpress.com website is blocked over there. That is the reason why, unlike the BBC forum, you don’t see many mainland residing chinese bloggers on WHYS.

    From my travels and from friends who’ve been there, life in China is actually very similar compare to other Asian places like Singapore or Kuala Lumpur. Life there is much freer now than it was 20 years ago. Self expression and religious practices are tolerated to a large degree. People generally go about their lives without much official interference and they are far far better inform now than before, despite their well known media and internet censorships. However, they would continue to encounter problems if found organising petitions or movements against the government or are seen to be part of an outlawed group. That is a big shame as that means they won’t be able to express their grievances at the hands of corrupt officials.

    Judging from the evolvement of sinophonic places like Hong Kong, Taiwan and Singapore, as the people on the mainland becomes more educated, informed and civically aware, life there will slowly improved, a sense of democracy will slowly develop, and their ability to control the destiny of the country will progressively increase.

  118. 119 Tom
    July 23, 2008 at 14:31

    My correction. I do have a close uncle and cousin living in Yunnan at the southwestern corner of china. I have never met them before but from their photos and correspondences with my father, they seem to be a very typical, honest working class family. I hope I’ll get to meet them one day.

  119. 120 Virginia Davis
    July 23, 2008 at 15:39

    @24/7 I appreciate being able to access the blog 24/7. Particularly important given world time zones.


  120. 121 Shirley
    July 23, 2008 at 16:14

    HTML Help
    Just curious:
    1) do we have Farsi-speaking WHYSayers on board today?

    2) Do our Arabic-speaking WHYSayers know much about using HTML Arabic fonts? I cannot figure out how to make a standing fatah or standing kasrah. I have something for the normal fatah and kasrah, and something else for the double fatah and double kasrah, but not for the standing fatah and standing kasrah. (Fatah and kasrah are diacretical marks used to represent short vowels in Arabic.)

  121. 122 Shirley
    July 23, 2008 at 20:31

    Lost: TP24Jul
    missing since ~18H GMT 23 Jul 2008
    if found, please return to World Have Your Say at worldhaveyoursay.wordpress.com
    Thank You.

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