Talking points 9 July

I’ve thanked Will below for a night’s tough moderating, but if you can’t be bothered to scroll down, please take on board what i say about some posts being way too long and full of links. At it’s best WHYS is a place where interesting and diverse people from all over the world, meet, talk and challenge each other’s views. At it’s worst, it’s a forum for pub bores.

As for today….

Ros is in Tanzania and may well be in an AIDS clinic as it’s a big issue there. Thanks for your views on this below, and i’m sure Ros will post later on. He had a bit of a ‘mare with the technology yesterday, so we may need a shadow programme…

ATOW, the reports of an attack near the U.S consulate in Istanbul are just coming in…

Have attitudes softened towards China ? The Tibet protests, the Darfur demonstrations, the boycott threats all seem a long time ago don’t they ? The Chinese President has been quick to thank George Bush for saying he’ll be going to the opening ceremony and wasn’t M. Sarkozy a bit of a critic ? He’s going as well , and then there’s a university here in London that’s apologised to China for awarding an honorary degree to the Dalai lama . What is going on ?

And finally, i really liked this  article in the New Yorker – this bloke sounds as grumpy as me.  It’s basically about charging for bad behaviour on aeroplanes. What would you charge for ? (me ? – loud talking on mobiles on the train, middle lane hogging, people who eat with their mouths open, slow walkers, people who say “i don’t support a team, i just like football” )

142 Responses to “Talking points 9 July”

  1. 1 Anthony
    July 8, 2008 at 19:21

    Did anyone see the cell phone commercial in Japan where they showed a monkey spoofed to be Obama?


    No one in Japan made a connection with monkeys and blacks, except for a small group of 10 people (mostly black) in Japan, who made a HUGE deal and got it pulled. I think it’s B.S., just like that woman who got in trouble for making a reference to Tiger Woods and lynching. She didn’t even make the connection either. Anyone else thinks its crazy to pull a commercial just because about 10 people are upset?

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  2. 2 Katharina in Ghent
    July 8, 2008 at 19:32

    Hi all,

    Just because last nights talking points were about G8: It seems that they’re coming up with the first resolutions, but does anybody actually still believe anything they say, even something simple as today’s weather?


  3. 3 Venessa
    July 8, 2008 at 19:43

    Anthony ~

    I watched the commercial a couple of times and even went to their website. The video clip indicates that they have used a monkey in past advertisements as a mascot. Anyone who has limited knowledge of Asian culture knows that monkey’s are revered in their society. To me it looked like they were trying to advertise the launch of a new phone using the hype of the Obama campaign for change. Please tell me what’s wrong with using their mascot for that image? The monkey had already been featured in other advertisements.

    How can we move away from such stereotypes if we are overly sensitive to absolutely everything we see in the media and automatically assume malicious intent? These people complaining just brought attention to something that really was a non-issue. People really need to grow thicker skins.

  4. 4 Will Rhodes
    July 8, 2008 at 19:46

    Good evening/morning/afternoon to everyone.

    Let’s make it a good one.

    If you were wealthy enough to live in a mansion and your children went abroad to help the lesser able in our societies – they came home and convinced you to give up your current life-style, sell the mansion and give almost a million dollars to their charity – would you?

  5. 5 Katharina in Ghent
    July 8, 2008 at 19:51

    Hi Will,

    To answer your question: Maybe to some degree, but in the end of the day it is just asking too much that I should give up everything in order to help other people. There’s nothing wrong with donating lots of money, but not too the point where it starts hurting you. If you worked very hard all your life to make your wealth possible, then it’s not fair that your children (who grew up with the golden spoon that you provided) demand that you should give it all up. If they want to, that’s fine, you could even consider to give them part of their heritage, and if THEY then want to donate it, it’s their decision. But it shouldn’t hurt you.

  6. 6 Mark Sandell
    July 8, 2008 at 20:00

    Ros has just been on to do a trail (Nelsoni the sat didn’t work by the way !) and says people in Tanzania want to talk about HIV – is it still a stigma in your country as , Ros says, it seems to be there.
    Just a “heads up”…

  7. 7 Mohammed Ali
    July 8, 2008 at 20:07

    People should not make any point in monkey or bamboo, the point should be what can Obama and if is capable of doing.

  8. 8 Tino
    July 8, 2008 at 20:08


    The obvious media bias.


    Britain is sure slipping into the abyss as far as I can tell. Sharia law, dislike of spicy food = racist, releasing terrorists to have house arrest paid for by citizens etc. You guys really need to get it together.


    “They said the guards had also desecrated copies of the Koran.” Funny how it only matters when it is a MADE UP story about Gitmo. Quite frankly, I do not even care if the guards at Gitmo had flushed it down a toilet. People in the US are allowed to do what they want in that arena – hence the Piss Christ and the virgin mary thing with feces on it. The point, however, is that Muslims do not seem to be freaking out this time…double standard?


    About the ridiculous decision – as always – to cave into Muslim demands about the provision of areas for pilgrims.


    More on Britain’s ridiculousness.


    Bluff or no?

  9. 9 Robert
    July 8, 2008 at 20:12


    If you were wealthy enough to own a mansion that you are obviously paying a lot in tax and national insurance contributions. Given that to earn enough to afford a mansion you’ve probably put more into the pot than most others and so are covering the health care and education of other peoples in society.

    The economical activity that you and others are generating due to your own jobs probably keeps more people employed supporting you than you think.

    Your likely to have a private pension and health care and be less of a burden to the state in your future years.

    You’ve obviously raised a couple of good kids who will not view the state as something to sponge off, as evident by their work abroad.

    Isn’t this contributing? Your overall input into the system is much more positive than most. Just because you’ve not handed it directly to the needed doesn’t mean your not contributing to they’re well being. After all that time, surely you should have the right to relax and enjoy the fruits of your hard labour.

    if however you hire a good accountant to avoid tax, pay sub minimum wage to your illegal immigrant employees, and the reason your kids went abroad is you couldn’t stand them cluttering up your mansion, then I don’t think any logical argument will pursade you to give it up.

  10. 10 Anthony
    July 8, 2008 at 20:19

    @ Venessa

    Well said 🙂

    @ Will

    It depends on where it I would be going. I don’t think so though, since I would rather keep the money in America, and I don’t really think that I, even with millions of dollars, would be able to make a difference that would last. I think a lot of aid is a waste, since people then depend on help, and once you leave, it’s back to how it was before.

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  11. July 8, 2008 at 20:21

    Hi Mark,

    Let’s hope all the technical problems will have been solved hours before the start of the show.

    In Morocco, AIDS is on the increase despite the health campaigns. It is rampant in tourist cities like Agadir. It is estimated that more than 20,000 people in Morocco are infected with HIV, compared to 600,000 people who are infected with other sexually transmitted diseases.

    It costs almost nothing to use a condom, but negligence costs the patients sums of money they can’t afford to stay alive the longest possible time.

    The slogan, “don’t have sex without condom, don’t share needles” seems easier said than done in the face of mounting cases, esepcially in Africa. But there is still hope to save potential AIDS victims through concentrated efforts on the parts of governments, NGO and WHO.

  12. 12 Mohammed Ali
    July 8, 2008 at 20:25

    @Tino, I think the Koran according is from God and there is God’s book. Why should people worry and kill people when the desecrate God’s book? Shouldn’t they leave it with God who is professed to be all powerful to use his powers against those who desecrate his books. I see no sense in fighting for a supreme being who is proclaimed to be all powerful.

  13. 13 Julie P
    July 8, 2008 at 20:36

    I think we should the opportunity to talk about Will in this forum! 😉

  14. 14 Shirley
    July 8, 2008 at 20:42

    I found this treatment of AIDS in an article on an Islamic website.

    The Muslim Awareness Programme (MAP), based in South Africa is a faith-based organization that promotes HIV/AIDS prevention strategies based on the moral teachings of Islam. These activities include the promotion of abstinence from all sexual activity outside marriage; refraining from drug use, and instilling faithfulness within marriage. South Africa has one of the highest HIV-infection and drug-use rates in the world, creating a breeding ground for the spread of HIV/AIDS.

    I appreciate the faith-based initial approach, but I strongly feel that any programme that advocates absinence until marriage and then stops there is mortally flawed. It is troublesome to me that nothing was said of condoms in that article. Even in the case of Muslims, what of the married couple who are dealing with HIV and don’t want to spread it to their partners or worsen the infection in those partners who already have it? And why shouldn’t it be the prerogative of women to request or even demand that their husbands use condoms? We all know that not everyone is faithful.

    One thing that I did appreciate in the article was the emphasis on treating HIV and AIDS patients respectfully.

    Someone else wants the computer, but before I go, this link: http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/IRIN/fd0ec94054aa8f8a2cef268b5e0afa21.htm

  15. 15 shirley
    July 8, 2008 at 21:01

    Will, I’m not so sure that I would have a mansion in the first place. Every time that I dream about becoming wealthy, I plan who I want to give money to: the charity fund at the local mosque, my family, the local food pantry, etc.

  16. 16 Venessa
    July 8, 2008 at 21:10


    I think you make a good point. While this religious organization may be doing some good I think it does harm to those that don’t subscribe the same belief system. When you associate solving a social issue with religion there is always a large group of people that are excluded. For these programs to be effective religion needs to be excluded from the equation and education needs to come first.

  17. July 8, 2008 at 21:12

    @ Tino,

    Exactly. Britain is slipping under the onslaught of Islamists. Soon enough, they will be a majority in the country, and soon enough it will be an Islamic Republic.

    Do you think that version of events is ridiculous or impossible? Think again, the evidence is right before you. Or have you been so brainwashed that you cannot even recognize when your own culture is being oppressed and displaced? Perhaps you’re alright with that?

  18. 18 Will Rhodes
    July 8, 2008 at 21:15

    Exactly. Britain is slipping under the onslaught of Islamists. Soon enough, they will be a majority in the country, and soon enough it will be an Islamic Republic.

    Exaggerate much Ackbar?

    The Muslim population in the UK stands at about 1.5% – how will they become a majority over night?

  19. 19 Julie P
    July 8, 2008 at 21:15

    Interesting development in my neck of the woods. I haven’t seen anything in the local newspaper, or the television stations, but it is on CNN.


    Honor killing, or domestic violence?

  20. July 8, 2008 at 21:26


    Yeah, you’re right, I’m exaggerating. Demographic forecasts are also exaggerating. The current buckling of foreign policy and especially domestic policy to Islamist demands must also be the product of my imagination.

  21. 21 Will Rhodes
    July 8, 2008 at 21:35

    OK – Ackbar, lets go through this again.

    94% of the UK population is white and predominately of Christian in faith. Out of the 6% that are not white and not of Christian faith a number are black, Indian, Chinese and so on. And not of muslim faith.

    So, we must therefore, taking into account what you have to say, assume that only the Muslim faith will rise in number in the UK to over 36 million people, that is taking into account that the current population is rising in the UK across the board.

    Now, to do this, over 30 million people are going to have to be immigrated into the UK from a purely Islamic country and 30 million British people will have to be expelled from British shores. Or – the Muslim community will have to give birth to 30 million exclusively Islamic/Muslim children – taking the population of the UK over 90 million, which still leaves the Muslim community in the minority.

    So, exactly how are the Muslims in the UK going to become the majority?

  22. 22 Tino
    July 8, 2008 at 21:36

    “Exaggerate much Ackbar?”

    While he may be exaggerating the population portion, the UK govt has OPENLY admitted to special treatment given to Muslims. Sniffer dogs must wear booties around Muslims, piggy banks were banned, the cute ad with the puppy was found offensive, trying to introduce sharia law, the list is now endless. Britain is now full of dhimmis and Muslims – it is only a matter of time before it is game over. I just hope it doesn’t happen here (US), the UK is beyond hope as far as I can tell.

    I mean, there are no go areas for Christians, in a Christian country. The British cop told the two ministers he could not guarantee their safety if they come back to the area they were handing info out at. In a Christian country. You really think he was exaggerating all that much?

  23. 23 Tino
    July 8, 2008 at 21:38

    “So, exactly how are the Muslims in the UK going to become the majority?”

    They reproduce much faster. Also, there are white muslims – race is not the demographic of interest. Talk of population is beside the point though when the govt is openly pandering to Muslims. The few can dictate the rules for the many, it seems.

  24. 24 Shirley
    July 8, 2008 at 21:39

    Julie, I consider honour killing to be a form of domestic violence. In this particular case, it is very possible that the father felt unrestrained in his actions to the point that his violence resulted in murder because honour killings are not denigrated more in Pakistani culture. It still has quite a bit of tacit support.

    Fertilizers are causing dead zones to expand in the Gulf of Mexico. Dead Zones Grow in the Gulf of Mexico by US News & World Report.

  25. 25 Tino
    July 8, 2008 at 21:42


    Definitely honor killing: “Apparently she and the father had argued over the marriage and the fact that it was arranged, and at some point during the altercation he did end up killing his daughter,” said Clayton County police spokesman Tim Owens.”

    Such an idea as love, freely chosen, is unacceptable to this man – and most of his religion. I saw a documentary recently on honor killings, one of the couples on there had a similar story. A woman did not want to enter her arranged marriage and found love with a different man. Her family beat the hell out of him and locked her in the house for a couple of YEARS. He eventually rescued her and fled to the US. They were both Pakistani Muslims. The idea is that such a thing is shameful to the family and puts a mark of dishonor to be reclaimed only with the woman’s blood. It is quite horrible.

  26. 26 Will Rhodes
    July 8, 2008 at 21:42

    The point about children disliking certain foods was made by a PC organisation who isn’t really taken seriously. There are children born into families in the UK who are taught that racism is a good thing – correcting that idea is bad? If that is how you feel then fine.

    Personally I take it if my kids say “Yuck” to a certain food then they don’t like the food – if some idiot wants to interpret that as being racist toward “white” people, then they are odd, as my children are white and of Christian faith.

    The Daily Mail story is a Daily Mail story – a bit like Fox News but in print.

  27. 27 Mohammed Ali
    July 8, 2008 at 21:44

    @Admiral and Will, how will society be like if we the free thinkers were dominate and control both the politics and economy of nations?

  28. 28 Julie P
    July 8, 2008 at 21:46


    Thanks for the info. Atlanta does not have a large, or even small Pakistani population, although I meet some, it is not often, so my knowledge is limited.

  29. 29 Will Rhodes
    July 8, 2008 at 21:48

    You will have to expand on that question, Ali – I believe myself to be a free-thinker, others, it would seem, think I am closed minded.

  30. July 8, 2008 at 21:50

    @ Will,

    Fine, “let’s go through this”. It seems that Mr. Rhodes has been alarmed by an “Islamphobe” and must now set out to dismiss his opinion in favor of a “moderately liberal stance”.

    Currently, 1 in 5 babies in England is born to immigrant mothers. That is quickly on the rise. Since England’s population constitutes 84% of the UK, this pretty much covers the whole of the country. Many of these immigrants are Muslim in faith.

    Muslims live in pretty much closed communities and the relegion is therefore preserved. The government subsidises the relegion by an “anti-radicalization” policy, whereas many of the very Islamic clerics in charge of the policy are radical in their stance.

    The white birthrate both in the UK is down compared to those of other ethnic groups. This, coupled with a population explosion expected and already occuring in the Muslim demographic is expected to yield a minority of native English.

    The demographic shifts taking place, combined with a policy of appeasement to Islamic culture and relegion (just consider the very recent case of an 11 and 12 year old given detention for refusing to pray to Allah) will therefore make Muslims the most powerful group in the UK. If they can have the government dance to their tune now, imagine what they will do once they acquire a greater population percentage in the UK.

    And considering the case of South Africa, you and I well know that a group does not have to be a majority to impose its will on the country. The only difference between South Africa during Apartheid and England in the near future is that the Muslims will also have a population majority.

  31. 31 Anthony
    July 8, 2008 at 21:53

    So, Russia says if we put that missle sheild in the Czech Republic, they’re gonna respond with “military, not diplomatic, resources…..”. Hmmmmm, thats kinda scary. The US and Czechs already signed the paper work. Whats a country to do???


    -Anthony, LA, CA

  32. 32 Mohammed Ali
    July 8, 2008 at 21:56

    @HONOR KILLING, there is no such thing as honor killing. Killing for any reason outside the law is unjustified.

  33. 33 Will Rhodes
    July 8, 2008 at 21:58

    Fine, “let’s go through this”. It seems that Mr. Rhodes has been alarmed by an “Islamphobe” and must now set out to dismiss his opinion in favor of a “moderately liberal stance”.

    Alarmed? I welcome you speaking your mind, Ackbar – alarmed certainly not.

    With the rise in the birth rate you still don’t come to any concrete figures. But still.

    So, lets deal with the SA argument – you are quite correct in that the white population ruled with an iron-fist over the black population – but we do have to take into account that those who were part of the armed forces, police, special branch etc were all a part of the system that kept apartheid going, or am I incorrect in that?

    11 and 12 year old detention for not praying to Allah? Link please.

  34. 34 Tino
    July 8, 2008 at 22:02


    Kids were given detention for refusing to pray to Allah, which would ordinarily be thought of as insane. Yet you still think this is somehow exaggeration? They are running a sort of stealth jihad on British culture. Again, no piggy banks, dogs are offensive items. Christianity is taboo and Islam is encouraged. The whole situation is rather crazy from my view. If anything like this was happening in the US I would be taking to the streets in protest now.


    On the whole in Atlanta there may not be many Muslims, but here at Tech there are quite a few. There were also the two from my school who were brought up on terrorism charges. Also the Mosque on 14th street, so there is a decent population around here.

  35. 35 Anthony
    July 8, 2008 at 22:05

    @ Mohammed Ali & “honor killing”

    I think that killing a family member who is suffering, and will die know matter what is an honor killing. I would have happily killed my Grandpa, a great man, a WWII hero, who fought against racism in his Texas hometown (his parents were born in Mexico). He had lung cancer and had NO chance of making it. He just would lie there, coughing, and spitting blood, soiling himself. A great person like that didn’t deserve that. Now THAT would be an honor killing that I wish I could have helped him with at the end.

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  36. 36 Tino
    July 8, 2008 at 22:07



    Didn’t link the daily mail article since you seem to hate them so much. PS most news orgs have a liberal bias which you seem perfectly fine with – like the BBC most of the time. I personally like to take an article from both sides and figure the truth is in the middle somewhere.


    Theres a guardian article for you too but it is very brief and not at all in depth.

  37. 37 Will Rhodes
    July 8, 2008 at 22:07


    Having a national newspaper reporting this isn’t protest? Or, could it be that even though these isolated cases are exaggerated the British people just may not see it the same way you do?

    I would still like a link to the kids being given detention for not praying – as, if you have read any of my posts on the subject, I am a very secular person who believes that religion in schools is a bad thing.

  38. 38 Julie P
    July 8, 2008 at 22:08


    I live in a section of Marietta that has a large Brazilian population. At one point I thought the whole of Brazil was relocating to Marietta. I’ve learned a lot about Brazilians. I’ve even picked up some Portugese. I rarely go into Midtown or the downtown area; it’s out of the way. I’m stuck out here in Snobb (I mean Cobb) County. Living in East Cobb has also given me a look into the Old South.

  39. 39 Tino
    July 8, 2008 at 22:08

    The quotes seem to have messed it up but they are part of the link, just copy and paste I guess.

  40. 40 Robert
    July 8, 2008 at 22:10


    Please provide a link for the kids praying to Allah?
    Please provide a link to the banning of piggy banks?
    Dogs being offensive items? Where’s the newspaper article? (I’ll even except the Mail at this point).

    Christianity is taboo yet it makes up nearly a 1/3 of the second chamber of our parliament?

    I’ve never been approached by a Muslim to convert on the streets in Britain, but plenty of wacky Christian groups have wasted my time doing so.

  41. 41 Anthony
    July 8, 2008 at 22:10

    @ tino


    Yup, absurd!!! Imagine the crazyness if it were the other way around. Imagine a Muslim boy going to detention for not kneeling with a Rosary, wearing an alter boy outfit, and reciting “Hail Mary…”. But they would never do that since they would think some extreamist would blow the school up!!! It’s B.S.

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  42. 42 Tino
    July 8, 2008 at 22:16

    “Having a national newspaper reporting this isn’t protest? Or, could it be that even though these isolated cases are exaggerated the British people just may not see it the same way you do?”

    No, that is solely reporting the news. You will notice no news articles – except maybe opinion – condemn it. As for the second option, that is a definite possibility though it is not something I can understand. If people do not think it is messed up that kids get detention for this, then the UK might as well switch from CoE to Islam.

  43. 43 Dennis
    July 8, 2008 at 22:21

    Hi Will,

    How is life in Canada….

    Currently in New York–We are having an another heat wave…..

    Hi everyone else…

    Onondaga Community College
    Syracuse, New York
    United States of America

  44. 44 Brett
    July 8, 2008 at 22:24

    If you were wealthy enough to live in a mansion and your children went abroad to help the lesser able in our societies – they came home and convinced you to give up your current life-style, sell the mansion and give almost a million dollars to their charity – would you?

    Probably not… I would spend my time and money helping others but would most likely not feel compelled to dump the money I worked for into the hands of someone else to disperse it as they see fit. I would want a direct hand in the assistance to those who needed it. I would rather be abroad with my children helping those who needed it.
    Then again I’m not compelled, nor could I ever see myself being compelled to live in a mansion. What a waste.

    Brett ~ Richmond, Va.

  45. 45 Mohammed Ali
    July 8, 2008 at 22:25

    @WILL, TINO and, ADMIRAL, when say free thinke, I mean we who beleive that people should go about worshippng any god they wish to, we who don’t punish people for not subscribing to our beleif, we who don’t kill people for damning our beleif, etc. If we were to control and dominate both political and economy power. Will it be better for the world?

  46. 46 Will Rhodes
    July 8, 2008 at 22:27

    @ Tino – it was in the spam filter, thanks for adding it/them.

    I don’t like the Daily Mail because it is beyond right-wing for me, I see it as a comic more than a newspaper – but I don’t hate it, I dislike the way it reports.

    The Telegraph link came up: Error 404
    Sorry, the page you have requested is not available
    Please try again later

    I know Congleton – I used to live a relatively short distance from there.

    I read the Guardian piece and in that it says this incident is under investigation, which is a good thing, no?

    If the teacher is found to be well off the mark then he/she needs dealing with. What I do suspect is that the children concerned were disciplined not just for not praying – which, I agree should NOT have been forced upon the children.

    Religious Education was very different when I attended school, if I had to come out and say something I would say that religious education should not now be taught in schools. That is my opinion.

    I don’t agree with the political correctness that runs through schooling these days, I have said that before. Children need to be taught how to get the basics right before anything else – now that you will have no argument from me about.

  47. 47 Will Rhodes
    July 8, 2008 at 22:29

    when say free thinke, I mean we who beleive that people should go about worshippng any god they wish to, we who don’t punish people for not subscribing to our beleif, we who don’t kill people for damning our beleif, etc. If we were to control and dominate both political and economy power. Will it be better for the world?

    Yes, I believe it would be.

  48. 48 Brett
    July 8, 2008 at 22:30

    The Muslim population in the UK stands at about 1.5% – how will they become a majority over night?

    Sssshhhhh… don’t question it, it will ruin the apocalyptic Anti-Muslim scare mongering.

    Sure some if not all Muslim leaders would like to see Muslims as the majority, but then again, isn’t it that way with many religions? Just because leaders or followers want it to happen doesn’t mean it will.

  49. 49 Will Rhodes
    July 8, 2008 at 22:31

    It’s exceedingly warm here, Dennis – 31c and 100% humidity.

  50. 50 Will Rhodes
    July 8, 2008 at 22:33

    @ Brett – I couldn’t agree more!

    I do find it surprising the low opinion of the British people to just capitulate, but that is another story completely.

  51. 51 nelsoni
    July 8, 2008 at 22:35

    @ Mark, about the SAT, not to worry, we have a reliable and tested plan B. @ Kathrina: until the G-8 leaders can match their words with credible, concrete and verifiable actions, they are not to be trusted.

  52. 53 Tino
    July 8, 2008 at 22:38


    For the telegraph article, just copy and paste. They seem to use single quotes in their addresses and it cancels the hyperlink there.

  53. 54 Dennis
    July 8, 2008 at 22:39

    Here in Syracuse [where i am attending college]

    On Tuesday—It was over 80 degrees…


    Onondaga Community College
    Syracuse, New York
    United States of America

  54. 55 nelsoni
    July 8, 2008 at 22:48

    I just read a post about muslims becoming the dominant population in the UK very soon. Those figures or statistics quoted are highly laughable and at best can be described as wishful thinking. That is not goin to happen not in this century or in the next considering the fact the islam has to polish its image world wide.

  55. 56 Jonathan (sunny San Francisco)
    July 8, 2008 at 22:49


    Let’s see, a million dollars, spread among, oh, how about the billion very poorest people in the world, would yield 1/10 of one cent to each person. Nope, not a great difference. Far better to fund some microloans to really help people build for themselves. It’s more useful, and you get your money back.

  56. 57 Mohammed Ali
    July 8, 2008 at 22:56

    @ANTHONY, I agree with you in that kind of situation. Unfortunately, what they are talking about here are some stupid barbaric people killing their daughters or sisters because they do not agree to marry another stupid person because of some backward way of living call religion. Do you consider that an honor killing?

  57. 58 steve
    July 8, 2008 at 23:08

    @ Brett

    “Sssshhhhh… don’t question it, it will ruin the apocalyptic Anti-Muslim scare mongering.

    Sure some if not all Muslim leaders would like to see Muslims as the majority, but then again, isn’t it that way with many religions? Just because leaders or followers want it to happen doesn’t mean it will.”

    Can you do the famlies of the Underground bombings a huge favor and tell them why it was okay for their loved ones to be killed because of someone’s belief in a fictional sky deity? Obviously there is a threat to the people in the UK, is there not? There is no reason to be scared? Please tell that the families of those who were killed by people so insane they killed over a fictional book character.

  58. 59 Venessa
    July 8, 2008 at 23:09

    @ Mohammed Ali

    “I mean we who beleive that people should go about worshippng any god they wish to, we who don’t punish people for not subscribing to our beleif, we who don’t kill people for damning our beleif, etc. If we were to control and dominate both political and economy power. Will it be better for the world?”

    YES! The reason: because people who are free thinking are less likely to force their views on someone else. Instead fairness and equality would be on the agenda. Unfortunately such an idealistic world will never exist.

  59. 60 Mohammed Ali
    July 8, 2008 at 23:12

    What’s all this noise about muslims or christians dominating Britain? Here is a good solution, if you are tired of those two groups of people, just switch them to the Middle East because there were Islam and Christianity originated.

  60. 61 steve
    July 8, 2008 at 23:17

    @ Mohammed Ali

    It just seems that the PC left are bending over backwards to accomodate muslims, enabling them to not intergrate into society, whereas people who go to muslim countries obey muslim law and don’t expect to be accomodated. If yout hink of the piggy bank ban, Jews don’t eat pork either, and they never thought to ban piggy banks due to the Jews. Why?

  61. 62 Robert
    July 8, 2008 at 23:26


    I knew a lot of that goes on, but ultimately is about lack off understanding in all directions.

    1) Enforcers not understanding what the anti discrimination laws really mean and how they should be enforced. And if they do enforce it correctly not often explaining clearly what is going on. This leads to many well meaning people (like the RE teacher) making what are honest mistakes.

    2) The racist and biggotts just thinking that any none white British idea is just another attempt to take over the country rather than an expression of said persons own freedom and rights. This leads to an honest mistake being blown out of all proportion.

    3) The minorities themselves not fully understanding their religion. It was telling in the article in the Telelgraph re piggy banks that the Islamic Theologian points out that the rules about not eating Pork have been misinterpreted by Muslims themselves.

    4) The minorities misinterpreting the same legislation and thinking that they have rights.

    Regarding the Cross. The English have long had an issue with it ever since the football thugs took it as there symbols and went on a rampage across Europe a few decades ago. This is not something specific to Muslims or the Crusade, its is certain parts of English society that have brought it into shame.

    Finally the No Go Areas. The article doesn’t seem to say that the Ministers where having any issue with the four Muslim youths. The problem seems to be more of an Anti American Volunteer Police Office who doesn’t understand the law himself. The word jobsworth springs to mind.

    None of what you have suggested is a systemic spreed of Islam into the UK. All the examples provided are mistakes by individuals. It’s a clash of two cultures with both trying to sort out how to life together peacefully. It doesn’t happen over night.

  62. 63 Brett
    July 8, 2008 at 23:27

    Can you do the famlies of the Underground bombings a huge favor and tell them why it was okay for their loved ones to be killed because of someone’s belief in a fictional sky deity? Obviously there is a threat to the people in the UK, is there not? There is no reason to be scared? Please tell that the families of those who were killed by people so insane they killed over a fictional book character.

    Steve, I never said anywhere that there was NO reason to be scared. Nor did I ever say it was OK for anyone to die for anyone elses beliefs. I never said there was no threat, however, I did mock the apocalyptic-overnight “OMG Muslims are going to rule the world asap” scare tactics. Plenty of people and organizations pose threats to society. It doesn’t mean they are going to take over the world tomorrow.
    I think people aren’t realizing there is a difference between Islam and Islamic Extremism.
    Why would I have to do anyone the favor of explaining or condoning deaths of loved ones because I refuse to lump all Muslims into a category of “Muslim = bad; STOP THEM; TOMORROW THEY TAKE OVER THE WORLD!”?
    Sorry if that makes me a bad person… I fail to see a strong correlation as to the underground bombings and the notion that tomorrow, Islam (Note, NOT Islamic Extremism) is going to rule the world.

    If anyone wants to live in constant fear and panic, under the dept of homeland security or their own threat level Islam-Red go for it. I am acknowledging the threat is there, but questioning whether it is as fast-comming as the ‘right’ cries.

  63. 64 Robert
    July 8, 2008 at 23:30

    May I quickly correct a typo in my last statement

    4) The minorities misinterpreting the same legislation and thinking that they have rights above others.

    The minorities do off course have the same rights as other groups.

  64. 65 Tino
    July 8, 2008 at 23:41


    “I think people aren’t realizing there is a difference between Islam and Islamic Extremism.”

    Please explain to me the difference, considering Islamic extremism is nothing more than literal interpretation of the Quran and Hadith.


    That many mistakes by individuals, who ONLY belong to one community, signifies an overall problem to me. There are no comparable issues between Sikhs, Hindus, Jews, Atheists, etc. Only Muslims. Please explain how this is possible. Why are these other faiths – or lack of faith – not making ‘honest mistakes’. Hindus are generally vegetarian but I do not see them flipping out on McDonalds or any other place selling meat.

  65. 66 Tino
    July 8, 2008 at 23:46

    “I fail to see a strong correlation as to the underground bombings and the notion that tomorrow, Islam (Note, NOT Islamic Extremism) is going to rule the world.”

    Take a look at CAIR (Council for American Islamic Relations) then, the wonderful organization that it is.

    “”Those who stay in America should be open to society without melting, keeping Mosques open so anyone can come and learn about Islam. If you choose to live here, you have a responsibility to deliver the message of Islam … Islam isn’t in America to
    be equal to any other faiths, but to become dominant. The Koran, the Muslim book
    of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only
    accepted religion on Earth.
    “” (Co-founder Omar Ahmad)

    “”I wouldn’t want to create the impression that I wouldn’t like the government of
    the United States to be Islamic sometime in the future
    …But I’m not going to do anything violent to promote that. I’m going to do it through education.”” (Ibrahim Hooper, spokesman)

    “”Catholic priests pose more of a terrorism threat by having sex
    with young altar boys than those who flew planes
    into the World Trade Center.”” (CAIR florida director)

    This is a supposedly moderate organization – I do not think so at all, but the general public does. There are plenty of other instances of Muslims wishing the world to be under Allah and to re-establish a worldwide caliphate.

  66. 67 Tino
    July 8, 2008 at 23:56

    “If anyone wants to live in constant fear and panic, under the dept of homeland security or their own threat level Islam-Red go for it. I am acknowledging the threat is there, but questioning whether it is as fast-comming as the ‘right’ cries.”

    I do not want to sacrifice many of my rights, but I would like to see much, much stricter controls and investigation into those Muslims who wish to come here. I want to see profiling – based ONLY on religion. I do not live in constant fear and panic, but I do think the threat is immediate. Do you honestly think 9/11 was the end of it?

  67. 68 Robert
    July 8, 2008 at 23:59


    First, the mistakes are being made by both Muslims and non Muslims in the UK.

    That many mistakes I agree does point to a problem, that is the one of lack of understanding. Understanding takes times to achieve, it can’t be switched on. Until that happens mistakes will occur.

    Britain has always had trouble as new cultures arrive and are assimilated. Over the last fifty or so years Indian, West Indians Jews etc have all settled here and had there problems. Now its the turn of Islam and Eastern Europeans. They face the brunt of British racism (it is still out). The difference is that before the issue of race and culture was swept under the rug and ignored. Nowadays with a more open environment, 24 hour news looking to fill the space and the internet and a these things are more likely to surface.

    Turning this around to America, what about places like Texas and California with the large immigration of Mexicans? When I was living in Houston it struck me as potentially a worse problem in terms of just the shear numbers and language barrier involved than we ever suffer in the UK (I don’t know the numbers, but Latinos in Houston was much more than the 1.5% of Muslims in the UK). The immigrate population is breeding faster than the American ones in the affected states just as you tried to point out with the British system. What have Texas and the like done to prevent the melt down your predicting in the UK? What did they do wrong? Have they got it right? I would be interested in your take on it?

  68. 69 Brett
    July 9, 2008 at 00:06

    Tino, please see above. in my comment:
    Sure some if not all Muslim leaders would like to see Muslims as the majority, but then again, isn’t it that way with many religions? Just because leaders or followers want it to happen doesn’t mean it will.
    I am not questioning Islams ambition of world dominance. I in fact stated that most if not all leaders wish it to be the dominant religion (just as many other followers and leaders of other religions).
    I am questioning the likelyhood of it happening, and happening with such speed that the doomsdayers predict.

  69. 70 nelsoni
    July 9, 2008 at 00:19

    Its case of ” give them an inch, they take a yard” “give them a yard they take a mile”.

  70. 71 nelsoni
    July 9, 2008 at 00:23

    @ All, one thing you have to take into consideration is that there are different versions of islam ( i dont expect any arguments on that). Some are just interested in practising their religion in peace while others are interested in waging a Jihad against the whole world.

  71. 72 Shef Rogers
    July 9, 2008 at 00:38

    Every day the BBC leads with a story on Zimbabwe, and every story blames Mugabe. Does the BBC ever intend to inform viewers that Britain has had a huge part in destroying Zimbabwe, from Rhodes’s vile land grabs to Clare Short’s 1997 announcement that the UK was no longer planning to pay land claims?
    The larger question looming here is: does Britain have any historical conscience at all?

  72. 73 steve
    July 9, 2008 at 00:51

    @ Shef

    50 years and 100 years from now, when the story is still the same, will europe still be to blame? When will Africans hold themselves responsible for the situation they are in?

  73. 74 Tino
    July 9, 2008 at 01:04


    My take on the Mexicans in Texas and Cubans in Florida is that while there may be a language barrier, they are not trying to blow us up. I am sometimes annoyed in Miami at the airport/hospital where everyone assumes you speak spanish and seem to take offense when you do not. But that is not a big issue. They do not have an ideology that lends itself to world domination. There are not no-go areas for anyone here. There are ghettos and such which are not entirely safe but I lived in one and my room mates and I were the only whites in the neighborhood. I did not feel discriminated against, as there were plenty of other break ins and such on other people, we were not specifically targeted.

    I think this serves to illustrate my point. I am sure you have people that speak a different language. They, however, are not trying to change your entire culture. The only ones who seem to do this are Muslim. The only ones commiting terrorism are Muslim. That is why I do not think it is isolated cases of honest mistakes. Where are the Sikhs and Hindus causing problems (I say this because, to my knowledge, Indians make up a large minority population in the UK)? It is not misunderstanding, it is a series of deliberate attempts to force change. Once again, where/what are these other misunderstandings you speak of, involving anything other than Muslims?

    (Ref: “Over the last fifty or so years Indian, West Indians Jews etc have all settled here and had there problems.”)

    What problems did they cause to the UK?

    “First, the mistakes are being made by both Muslims and non Muslims in the UK.”

    What mistakes are non-Muslims in the UK making? Not including letting their culture die while they sit and watch.


    “I in fact stated that most if not all leaders wish it to be the dominant religion (just as many other followers and leaders of other religions).”

    Please provide examples. I have yet to see a Sikh or Hindu or Jew calling for the entire US to be governed under said religion. I have not even seen many Christians doing it. In addition, any that do are quickly condemned by the majority of said religion. Christians do not desire to take over the world. They even regard the crusades – a defensive war fought to repel Muslim invaders who had captured Christian holy land, imagine if someone took over Mecca/Medina for some analogous situations – as unjust.

    Contrast Islam’s attitude with Christianity.

    Islam: Prevalent terrorism problem, suicide bombing, shooting, bulldozers, etc. The majority does NOTHING but protest at the West’s imagined mis-perceptions. There are no widescale condemnations, no protests, etc. No assistance provided to authorities. The last death was TODAY. I would bet my own life there will be more tomorrow.

    Christianity: Had a SMALL terrorism problem in the past (abortion). All bombers were condemned as not following the religion. They were ostracized. Even anti-abortion agencies condemned the attackers. They then went so far as to offer rewards, from their own money, for the capture of those responsible. They assisted authorities. Now the problem is virtually gone. The last death was in either 1998 or 2000 (wiki = 1998, another site has 2000). Regardless, at least 8 years.

    Do you not see the differences? The problem, to a degree, can be found in the teachings of Islam itself. The problem is far from being restricted to extremists.

  74. 75 Will Rhodes
    July 9, 2008 at 01:51

    OK – here is one for you.

    Is WHYS value for money?



    Television – £2,355m
    Radio – £598m Take into account that there is a lot of radio stations on the BBC – local, national, World service.
    Online services – £182m
    Licence fee collection and other admin costs – £351m
    Digital switchover – £27m

    With our religious debate on-going; what about this?


    An ancient tablet shows the idea of the resurrection of a messiah after three days was part of Jewish tradition before Jesus’s birth, it is claimed.

    The theory has been proposed by Israel Knohl, a professor of biblical studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem.

    His reading of the Hebrew text raises questions about when the concept of a resurrected messiah first emerged.

    Questions remain over the tablet’s precise origins, however, and some scholars doubt its authenticity.

  75. 76 Dennis
    July 9, 2008 at 02:41

    @ Will

    our fearless moderator, the WHYS is a great benefit to the BBC…as all of the BBC ….

    Onondaga Community College
    Syracuse, New York
    United States of America

  76. 77 Count Iblis
    July 9, 2008 at 03:07

    Tino and Steve shouldn’t worry about Islam that much. In a few decades from now, we’ll have something else to worry about 🙂

  77. 78 Shirley
    July 9, 2008 at 03:12

    It makes more sense to me that Christians picked up the idea of a man-god whose father was a god being sacrificed and then rising from the dead on the third day from local Greco-Roman fertility religions.

  78. 79 Will Rhodes
    July 9, 2008 at 03:28

    @ Shirley

    You will find that people will counter that with a few remarks about Mohammed. Just to let you know.

    My belief in Christ is far more reaching than the misinterpretations of the KJB, which seems to be the Bible that quite a lot read from.

    I do believe that He was risen after three days, but not in April, you have to read the Original Text to understand that.

  79. 80 Count Iblis
    July 9, 2008 at 03:52

    Will, how do you reconcile your belief with the fact that you consist of molecules that are described by the laws of physics, implying that you are a machine?

  80. 81 Tom
    July 9, 2008 at 03:54

    Re: Toddlers who dislike spicy food ‘racist’

    So the lesson for British kids will be:

    If you don’t like spicy food, just shut up and tolerate it. Expressing displeasure to it is blatantly racist and you will be detained and re-educated!

    This guidance reminds me of a similar policy in another country on the opposite side of the world back in the 1960s. There, it was the kids who were asked to alert on the adults.

  81. 82 Shirley
    July 9, 2008 at 04:05

    Will, you have been generously tolerant in your posts, and I do appreciate that. I admit, though, that I find more parallels between the belief in Christianity of the death and resurrection of Jesus and the dying-rising ccyels of neighbouring pagan religions. Are there ways in which this newly discovered Jewish tradition more closely mirror Christian beliefs?

    When you refer to the original text, do you mean the NT in Greek or Aramaic, or are you talking about another text altogether?

  82. 83 Will Rhodes
    July 9, 2008 at 04:09

    Count – the same way that I know nothing about quantum physics/mechanics, but they are science.

    My belief is my faith, I believe because I believe and I really do feel that Christ has effected my life in certain areas – I don’t ask how or why, in me I just know.

    That is the basis of faith as I believe it.

  83. 84 Will Rhodes
    July 9, 2008 at 04:12

    Shirley – Greek, Aramaic, Hebrew text.

  84. 85 steve
    July 9, 2008 at 04:31

    Wow, imagine if children get food poisoning. That must mean they are incredibly racist and must immediately be sent to reeducation camps!

  85. 86 Shirley
    July 9, 2008 at 04:32

    Count: I believe that God established the laws of physics.

    Will, I am still hoping to hear more of your insights on my questions. Be back tomorrow.

  86. 87 Bob in Queensland
    July 9, 2008 at 04:41

    Good morning all!

    I find it interesting that several non-UK residents are so convinced of an Islamic “problem” in Britain, based entirely on reports in right-wing elements of the press. This is a bit like me watching Fox news and assuming I understand how everyone in America thinks.

    I left the UK for sunnier shores about 10 months ago and, unless there has been a major change since then, the situation is nothing like it has been portrayed in today’s blog. As was pointed out earlier, the Islamic religion amounts to only 1.5% of the UK population. It would take a long time for this number to become anything like a majority. Somebody else pointed out that about 20% of the births in England are to immigrant parents. This is true, but it’s not right to assume that all these immigrants are Muslims. In fact, the majority of immigrants to the UK are from eastern Europe, Africa, the Caribbean, the Indian subcontinent and the orient. Basically, the major sources of immigration are EU expansion and a flow of people from former colonies.

    Most of the things you hear about an Islamic takeover in the UK are scaremongering and/or PC rubbish. For example, I gather an American publication (Cal Thomas in The Tribune) has recently given big play to a speech by a senior British judge that Sharia law could be used in some circumstances in the UK. However, the next phrase was “as long as it does not come into conflict with British law which must take precedence”. The American report I read glossed over this part and instead went on a long diatribe about the evils of Sharia law.

    The same article also forgot to mention that Jewish Courts and even the Church of England have long be allowed to operate the same way in the UK, always with the law of the land taking precedence over any religious-based laws.

    Similarly, the “spicy food” thing is just PC-based foolishness. Don’t forget, “political correctness” was an American export. That said, exposing British children to foreign food at an early age is a GOOD thing. I cringe with embarrassment when I hear British tourists around the world saying “I don’t want this foreign muck–bring me egg and chips”. Believe me, British cuisine (and I use the term loosely) is nothing to write home about–but then, I’m a self-confessed foodie who loves trying new things.

    Having said all that, now I’m going to contradict myself by saying there IS a problem in the UK and that is that successive governments have embraced a policy of Britain being a “multicultural society” rather than a “melting pot”. I don’t believe this works and think it has lead to the UK being a nation of small individual groupings rather than a single, unified society. The trouble with these ethnic groupings is that, as soon as people set themselves apart, it spawns division, misunderstanding and conflict. I have to assume the immigrants to Britain move there because they see something worthwhile in the British way of life. This being the case, they should embrace it rather than trying to maintain a foreign way of life in a new country.

    Obviously, the melting pot should take the best that every immigrant has to offer (being a foodie again, the UK would be much the poorer without influences from all over the world) but this shouldn’t be at the expense of losing a British identity.

    ….My take on things, anyway.

  87. 88 Will Rhodes
    July 9, 2008 at 04:55

    Hi, Bob – I agree with you about multiculturalism – it is a waste of time and money, integration will be the way forward.

    I am stepping away from the PC for a short while, if you are around and if there is anything to moderate could you do it.

    I will be refreshing the page every half hour or so so I will carry on modding then.

    Thanks if you can do it – same goes for any other moderators around – much appreciated.

  88. 89 Bob in Queensland
    July 9, 2008 at 05:01

    No problem–I should be around for an hour or two and even then will just be stepping out for a quick trip to the shops to pick up some cheese and potatoes.

  89. 90 Tino
    July 9, 2008 at 05:02


    I pretty much agree with your post, except the bit on Sharia law. It should simply never be allowed, it seems like a bad wedge to allow – ever. I also feel that is part of integrating – accepting the law of the land.

    I do not think takeover by Islam is incoming soon, but I mean the things like sniffer dogs wearing booties, no piggy banks, etc. We are talking about catering to a super low % of the population – why should that be? I am pretty sure the vast majority find no problem with pigs and dogs. Islam has the most control out of all groups in the country as far as I can tell…

  90. July 9, 2008 at 05:29

    @ Will and everyone else

    Wow, it seems that an entire discussion has sprung up while I was at the gym. Sorry Tino for leaving you hanging.

    In conlusion to my previous posts:

    There is a direct and irrefutable historical parallel between the spread of Christianity between 2-5 AD and today’s spread of Islam.
    Starting as a small sect, Christianity consituted 30% of the relegious demographic of the Roman Empire. 100 years, a majority and 100 years after that,
    when Constantine the Great was forced to accept it for political and social reasons, it dominated the Roman world. And this under the pressure of contant repression
    and persecution.

    Islam today is at the approximate historical stage of the Christian Crusades, i.e. Jihad. It is spreading like wildfire and is consolidated wherever it penetrates
    due to the zeal of its believers. Having grown up in South Russia, I can attest to this personally. Not even the Soviet government could destroy Islam as well as it destroyed
    Orthodox Christianity.

    The current Islamic crusades are even more violent than the Christian ones, which were in fact responses to the sacking of Jerusalem. What resistance does Islam
    face in today’s world, especially in the West? Christianity as the default relegion is not fighting for its survival. Look at the Episcopal priest who
    advocated for calling God, Allah!

    Those of you whose lives “were affected by Christ” are no match for the warriors of Islam. And for each one of those who are, there is a thousand more fanatical Islamists.

    Our governments do nothing to preserve our culture. Divesity and multiculturalism are the orders of the day. Do you have the same in any Muslim country? Absolutely not!

    “Oh, but we’re more civilized than them!”, some may say. Civilization is no match for an idea imbued with the strength of hundreds of millions of fanatics.
    While we squabble over statistics, diversity, liberalism, diplomatic solution and how to best accomodate our new “guests” in our own country, we do not bother to look up
    and see what is happening. Our culture soon to be destroyed, institutions swept aside, history scorned. We give a centimeter, they take one hundred.

    Christianity’s destruction of the Roman world and culture changed history forever. It got us where we are today. What will an Islamic domination of the world,
    enabled by our weakness as a culture and fear to defend it, mean for us? Death. In that world, there is no place for you, and there is certainly not a place for me.
    Islam will not stop until it has subjugated all the peoples of the world and bound all the unbelievers into slavery based or racial and relegious class.

    This is their vision: http://weblog.theviewfromthecore.com/TheBlogFromTheCore20060309Lg.jpg

    If we do not act NOW, when we wake up and if we do, it will too late.

    Christianity, a relegion founded on pacifist principles is no match for Islam, a relegion founded by a warlord and propagated by the sword.
    Islam unequivocaly declares for the Kafirs (unbelievers) to be destroyed, until if a kafir is hiding behind a rock, that rock will cry out “There is Kafir behind
    me, Muslim kill him!”-An actual quote from the Koran.

    Some may think it is time for Christianity and the West to make way? Let them think that, but I for one will fight to preserve my culture, the rule of Western law and
    the sanctity of my history. I will not roll over and die to make room for Islam, and I will accept death one thousand times to preserve my way of life for even a day.

  91. 92 Bob in Queensland
    July 9, 2008 at 05:59

    Just as an example of how stories can be “spun” to support a point of view, there’s no ban on piggy banks in the UK.

    However, two banks that used to give them away as part of a promotion to attract young savers stopped doing so in case it offended the Muslim sector of their market. It was probably mainly a commercial decision but, at the time, it attracted a lot of criticism as political correctness gone mad. Some of this criticism even came from prominent Muslims who felt that such action being taken on a non-issue would merely drive the wedge between Muslim and non-Muslims a bit deeper. Based on this blog, such fears were likely justified.

    Rest assured though–you can still walk down any High Street in Britain and buy a piggy bank if you want one. (Couldn’t convince our 3 year old though–he wanted one with some Disney film character–now, if you want to worry about a cultural takeover of the world, I probably fear the Disney corporation more!)

    One final point I’d make is that many of the things cited as examples of some grand Muslim conspiracy in the UK actually turn out to be mere PC silliness foisted on the community by “loony left” local councils. As with the piggy bank thing, very often even the Muslim community are critical. However, such views are seen for what they are by the vast majority of UK citizens and, despite the dire tabloid headlines, don’t reflect the reality of UK life. I suspect the UK is not alone in having local government officials passing foolish rules–I’ve seen some pretty loony stuff come out of town and country governments in the USA as well, though this is usually the loony right rather than loony left!

  92. 93 Tom
    July 9, 2008 at 06:30

    Multiculturalism is nothing new. History is all about interaction and intermingle of differing cultures. In most cases cultures have naturally found ways to co-exist and re-adjust themselves to new changes.

    When multiculturalism becomes a political tool or a social engineering experiment, however, it can be extremely divisive with ethnic groups and immigration advocates forming lobby groups and politicians vying for votes from these lobby groups by pandering to their demands. The results of this are that policies are created for the interest of the ethnic community to keep them divided from the mainstream society rather than bringing them together, immigration from certain part of the world is encouraged over those from another part of the world, affirmative actions created to favor particular community groups while unfairly disadvantaging others, and political correctness is used to stifle debates on multiculturalism.

  93. 94 James DeVries
    July 9, 2008 at 07:03

    Given Barack Obama’s recent fudge, coddling the “faith-based initiative” vote without providing necessary clarification of the primacy of the separation of church and state as set forth in the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, the premier element of the Bill of Rights, the BBC should hold a debate on that notion. Government should ostentatiously stay out of religion and religion should resolutely stay out of government, except insofar as its adherents accept governmental protection of their diverse and paradoxical beliefs. This corrective to misguided American politics demands being applied for at least 30 years; the world is listening still, but for how much longer? Speaking of the rest of the Amendment, where are the press and where is the free will of the people on this subject? The role of government, as expressed in the Constitution, is to pass laws regulating people’s behaviours, to oversee the execution of those laws, and to fairly judge not only transgressors of the laws but the constitutionality of the laws themselves, as fine philosophical points come to the fore. While digitally-driven science surges forward and religions react, the separation of church and state in America and elsewhere requires clear reaffirmation and reasoned argument, not pandering to blocs of hoped-for voters. The question also has a large bearing on the (unfortunately) politically-stoked friction currently causing futile conflict among major religions: Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Judaism and others. Freedom of religion, separation of church and state. Where’s the debate?

  94. 95 Robert
    July 9, 2008 at 07:57

    Re Christian Resurrection Belief.

    I was always struck by the similarity between Christ’s rebirth and the story of the Egyptian god Osisis. That god was killed (by his brother) and then three days later found by a women (this time it was his wife). He came back to life a short time before moving to the Egyptian underworld to take up a thone as king. The Egyptian underworld is a generic land of the dead, rather than the hell of Christianity.

    The early Christian had plenty of access to Egyptian cults (The cult of Isis, Osisis wife was a popular Roman cult, Jesus lived some of his early life in Egypt). Same with the Jew’s, with the history of Iseal and Judeah were tied in with that of Egypt. It’s not suprising that the two exchanged ideas and similar themes appear in both holy books.

  95. 96 Jonathan (sunny San Francisco)
    July 9, 2008 at 08:13

    @Mark Sandell

    AIDS in Africa is a great topic and a change from the usual politics. It’s discouraging to hear that it’s still a stigma there after all these years. From the comments of many Africans on the blog and the radio program, it’s evident that African culture is extremely traditional and conservative, which is unhelpful in fighting the disease.

    Because AIDS in Africa is not restricted to marginalized groups (gays and IV drug abusers) as it mostly is in the west, I’m curious to know why it’s stigmatized. Is it more feared than, say, cancer?

    My best to the good people of Tanzania.

  96. 97 Bob in Queensland
    July 9, 2008 at 08:22

    @ Tom

    Well said on multiculturalism. You expressed what I was trying to–but said it much better.

    …and I think “multiculturalism vs. melting pot” combined with “political correctness vs. honesty” has the makings of a good on-air debate.

    @ Robert

    What you say makes great sense but it’s not just Egyptian cults of course. Much of what is thought of today as Christian tradition has its roots in old pagan ritual and ceremonies. Even things as fundamental as Easter come from the pagan ceremony Estoli and the timing of the annual Christian celebration is calculated by the lunar cycle just like the pagans did.

  97. 98 Jonathan (sunny San Francisco)
    July 9, 2008 at 08:47


    I think Obama is on record about his commitment to separation of church and state.

    Where religiously based social service efforts are more effective than government efforts to the same ends, there is arguably a case for the government to support them. It’s also arguable that the “wall of separation” must not be breached even for humanitarian reasons.

    Of course, the current administration has contaminated the issue by using the Office of Faith-based Initiatives as a front for a cynical political operation. Its former director tells the story in his book, including his efforts to make the White House staff stop referring to his unit as “the Office of [EFFING] faith-based initiatives!”

  98. 99 Jonathan (sunny San Francisco)
    July 9, 2008 at 08:54

    Just to be sinus-stingingly PC, “religions,” “mythologies,” or “traditions” might be preferable to “cults.”

    (Shaking my head and scurrying back to Lotusland…)

  99. 100 Omunyaruguru
    July 9, 2008 at 09:00

    “If you were wealthy enough to live in a mansion and your children went abroad to help the lesser able in our societies – they came home and convinced you to give up your current life-style, sell the mansion and give almost a million dollars to their charity – would you?”

    @ Will, I live in Africa and have visited Europe and the US. I have lived in both hotels and homes. In Africa I have lived in the cities and the ‘poverty stricken’ rural areas. So I have a feel of both worlds. Here I go then:

    Assuming no war and no drought as is the case where I live now,
    1. A man living in a 15feet x 15feet grass thatched mud and wattle hut with a sponge matress on the floor and no mosquito net is as happy as or happier than one living in a mansion in the western world.

    2. The longterm impact of charities/Aid organisations in Africa is questionable. You may thus sell your mansion and live a low cot life but your action would not have much impact.

    3. ‘Poverty’ is relative. With an income of $2500 a month, I can send my five children to the best schools in the country, support 5 other relatives and have two modest cars in my garage. You can’t do that in the US or Europe.

    Before you sell your mansion to support charity work in Africa, please come and live in my mudand wattle house in my community, understand us better then make your decisions.

  100. July 9, 2008 at 09:31


    AIDS had killed many people in Africa,ironically people in Africa seem to understand what causes HIV/AIDS but they don’t want to a void It,
    If I as Abdi know that sex is the major casuses of HIV/AIDS why can’t I totally a void sex altoghter?,
    people here in Africa live a very careless life hence the spread of HIV/AIDS at an alarming rate!,

    The major responsibility lies on the shoulders of the youths,they are expect to creat awareness to the local people,to tell them that a voiding HIV?AIDS is as easy as ABC- A-Abstain,B-Be faithfull C-Use Condom!

  101. 102 Mark Sandell
    July 9, 2008 at 09:38

    Blimey, well done Will for a difficult night.
    A couple of things arising :
    * watch the lengths here – and way too many links. Please feel free (like Will) to start your own blog if you want to post loads of links, but here is about conversation..
    * Tino, you have no idea what living in Britain is like. Just for reference, Peter Oborne ( an occasional WHYS contributor, writes for Spectator and the Mail) has launched a campiagn of sorts (beautifully and without any irony published in the Mail) accusuing the media here of Islamophobia- many of the articles you point to Tino (way too many in my view) have proved top be….what’s a good English phrase – total bollocks.
    * Thanks for the comments on AIDS, no doubt Ros will incorporate them in tonight’s prog…
    *Shef, you may be right – it may well be that Zimbabwe’s ills are all the result of Britain’s colonial past and Mugabe and his regime bear no responsibility at all…
    * and Will, just for ref : WHYS isn’t paid for out of the license fee, though of course the Foreign Office grant comes from the tax payer another way…

  102. 103 Jonathan (sunny San Francisco)
    July 9, 2008 at 09:48

    Oh, Mark, you’re quite welcome for the comment on AIDS. Glad you felt it contributed to the discussion.

    WHYS is paid for with Foreign Office funds? Hey, pretty slick!

  103. 104 Bryan
    July 9, 2008 at 09:49

    Bob in Queensland July 9, 2008 at 5:59 am

    “I suspect the UK is not alone in having local government officials passing foolish rules….”

    The point that you are perhaps missing here, Bob, is well-illustrated by your statement. Note that GOVERNMENT was involved here and in countless other cases. It is evident that Britain’s Muslims wield a tremendous amount of power, way out of proportion to their numbers and that they are intent on using that power to promote Islam at the expense of everything else. This should be a matter of concern to everyone interested in guarding the freedoms that Western societies have built up over centuries.

    Sometimes on reading the news out of Britain over the past few years I wonder if it’s actually a Monty Pythonesque exercise in comic absurdity:

    *Office worker forced to leave her tissue dispenser at home because it is in the shape of a pig.

    *A Saudi-funded London school not closed down despite the repeated offence of teaching children that Jews and Christians are the descendants of monkeys and pigs.

    *Local councils forcing communities to tone down Christmas celebrations.

    *The head of the C of E deciding for his Christian flock and the broader British community that the thin end of the wedge of Sharia law in Britain is a good thing.

    *A judge echoing this extraordinary capitulation.

    *The police obliged to inform the leaders of Muslim communities beforehand about any intended anti-terror raid on members of the community.

    *The Crown Prosecution Service charging Channel 4 for daring to depict radical Islamic preachers in British mosques as radical Islamic preachers.

    Problem is, the drive to turn Britain into an Islamic country is happening from the top down and it is anything but funny. British people should be putting up far stiffer resistance to it than they have till now. Perhaps the most effective way to resist would be to get this Labour government out of power before it can do any more damage, thus dealing a blow to the unholy alliance between the PC far left and radical Islam.

  104. 105 dave
    July 9, 2008 at 10:21

    As long as we let our ancient texts dictate our behaviors and our sense of “morality”, this kind of inhumanity will keep occurring. I would love to believe that this incident was a “domestic violence” issue, but it isn’t. That would be too easy. It is, unfortunately, a religious issue.
    The time has come, we need to take a hard look at the role our dogmatic beliefs play in the modern world. The disturbing is that this man did not kill his daughter out of reckless arbitrary violence. Islam as an idea has never championed human rights of women (or anyone outside the muslim faith for that matter.) in fact, the quran is quite adamant about the inequality that should be observed when referencing women of islamic society.
    According to the quran, women are a source of shame, and should be treated as such. So while honor killings are not covered in the quran, there is more than enough evidence to justify the actions of this particular muslim believer.
    This inevitable violence is the product of 4th century rhetoric which is believed by almost 2 billion people to be the inerrant word of God. To reiterate, this is not a domestic issue, but a global issue that could well mean the eradication of human civilization. I wish I was exaggerating, but it’s all there in the text. The evidence in the quran for the use of violence is startling. This is only trumped by the evidence we have for how many people actually believe that the text was actually written by God himself.
    It is now the responsibility of all humans to open up an honest discourse about the irrationality of religion and dogmatic belief (Islam is only one of many religions, including christianity and judaism, that put juvenile fairy tales before rational thought and scientific inquiry.) We cannot afford to tip toe around the subject any longer by relegating what is clearly a religious problem to a “domestic issue” for fear of offending or being politically incorrect.
    These events are happening at an alarming rate (even 1 honor killing a year is too much), and must be dealt with in the form of rational thought, skeptical inquiry, and cold hard facts. I am saddened by the aggression that took place in Atlanta, but I also know that if this same event took place in Iran or Nigeria, it wouldn’t have been met with the same vehement opposition.
    While I applaud our modern society for its sense of right and wrong on issues of honor killings, I am downright skeptical when it comes to using an ancient text for moral council. The same text that reads love your neighbor also can be invoked to justify the stoning of disobedient children, homosexuals, and heretics of all types.
    This kind of thinking needs to change in order for us as a humanist civilation to create a sustainable future.

  105. 106 Bob in Queensland
    July 9, 2008 at 10:54

    @ Bryan

    I think you missed MY point, namely that, where there is any truth to this kind of story, it’s over-PC loony local politicians not the national government. Add to this Mark’s very accurate comment that most of the stories are “total bollocks” (glad Mark said it first–I would have felt constrained to tone that bit down!) and the whole concept of the “Islamification of the UK” just doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.

    From your list of examples, one I can comment on without even looking it up is the CPS/Channel 4 story. Following the broadcast of a programme about radical preaching in mosques, a number of complaints were made to the police who referred the case to the CPS. The CPS in fact found that no laws had be broken and NO charges were laid. However, they did say they had found evidence of bias in the editing and referred the case to the broadcast regulator, Ofcom. Ofcom (a government body) in turn, found the Channel 4 programme to be fair and balanced.

    Beyond that, because the CPS didn’t withdraw their allegation of bias, C4 launched a lawsuit and recently won something like £100,000 in damages.

    So, though your “headline” basically implies that Muslim sensibilities are running the CPS and controlling broadcasting, the reality is that the due process of law proves completely otherwise. So much for a “drive to to Britain into an Islamic country”. Not a very effective drive so far, eh?

  106. 107 Dennis
    July 9, 2008 at 10:55

    *i have a reason that i have colours symbols, because during the day—i am not always on the same computer and for my own security reasons not identity theft purposes, i changed the email account information.*

    Regarding links, i will only include them if they met my own requirements, which are very high…..

    thanks, Chloe….

    Onondaga Community College
    Syracuse, New York
    United States of America

  107. 108 Mark Sandell
    July 9, 2008 at 11:46

    Bob, you’re right. I do like the fact that we get a lot of stick if anyone on any of our shows makes a judgement about another country, but it’s ok for people to do it here.
    Perhaps Peter Oborne has a point if so many people apparently believe the stories….i remember the “loony left” stories of the 70’s and 80’s (left wing council bans black bin liners, nursery bans “Baa Baa Black Sheep” etc etc) and they too turned out to be “T.B” as well.

  108. 109 James DeVries
    July 9, 2008 at 11:58

    Back @ tchoo: Jonathan (sunny San Francisco)

    First Amendment Defense: it’s gotta be active, that’s all I’m saying.

    Thanks for your comment. It is nonetheless an issue he should pick up and deal with again in a forthright, public and even auspicious way. Should Senator Obama explain why separation of church and state and freedom of religion (that is, in the public conscience) are vital to democratic and republican life and values, and do so convincingly, he would likely win all the voter blocs he wants. Then he could step up to the Second Amendment plate and stop waffling. I would be very interested in what he might say, should he clear off the spinmasters, clear his throat, think for a while and then speak for himself. The founding fathers were mostly all pro-gun, of course. Once “Common Sense” Paine and Paul Revere persuaded them, they were all mostly pro-militia, too. Only one potential signer of the Declaration backed out because he thought reconciliation with the British possible, if I recall correctly. The southerners, like Jefferson (very strongly “pro-gun”; check the biographies) had, after all, whole plantations, plenty of vulnerable slaves and entire Commonwealths to protect. But what “arms” meant then and now are clearly two different things. So “intentionalism” itself needs to be redefined.

    Out for the day now (dual national from sometimes-sunny northern Paris suburbs) so, check you later, bub

  109. 110 Tino
    July 9, 2008 at 13:01


    Of course I do not know exactly what it is like to live in the UK. I suspect that most people have no idea what it is like to live in African countries, Burma, China, and maybe even the US. Yet that does not stop them from commenting, correct? If your news agencies are so awful they cannot paint a proper picture that is not my fault.

    The fact still remains that Muslims wield power out of proportion to their population numbers. Bishop Nazir-Ali has commented on no-go areas for non-Muslims. Canon Michael Ainsworth was beaten while Muslims jeered at him for being a priest. Are those “TB” also?

  110. 111 Tino
    July 9, 2008 at 13:02

    Could you also post something showing those stories to be “TB”. I am pretty sure there really will be booties for the sniffer dogs, for example, which is better than the outright ban they were going to have for them sniffing Muslims initially…

  111. 112 Shirley
    July 9, 2008 at 13:19

    France, the European Commission and Middle East peace envoy Tony Blair say Israel hindering Palestinian aid effort | Israel lifts blockade on Nil’in | Assassination Attempt on Palestinian Attorney General Initial police reports indicated that the Attorney General’s car exploded while parked near his home in Ramallah city.

  112. 113 Justin from Iowa
    July 9, 2008 at 13:28

    Thoughts on Viacom going after people’s personal viewing histories on Youtube?

  113. 114 steve
    July 9, 2008 at 13:46

    Shirley, if you want, I can post ever story that portrays Palestinians in a negative light as I can. They do launch rockets at Israel on a daily basis, and I’m sure if you were allowed to go into their schools, you could see them teaching kids to hate Jews, but I don’t want to flood WHYS with it. You’ve made your point, you hate Israel, please don’t go overboard with it, okay?

  114. 115 Ibn Al Asad
    July 9, 2008 at 14:11

    @ shirley,

    Those links “Israeli soldier punches Palestinian child in the head” are nothing more than the product of left-wing scriblers in the yellow press.

    Israel is the only stable element in the Middle East. Israel’s death means our death.

  115. 117 steve
    July 9, 2008 at 15:16

    Wow, I’m listening to an Obama speech, about staying in school, but tailored to a black audience. He asked what percentage of men from a town would be in the NBA or become a rapper, and he said not many, so your best odds to get a good job is to stay in school. It’s a great message, but if a white guy said that, he would be called aracist and would have had to end his campaign.

  116. 118 Ibn Al Asad
    July 9, 2008 at 15:25

    @ Steve,

    Yeah, it’s ok for Obama to do that because only white people can be racist and inherently are.

  117. 119 Jonathan (sunny San Francisco)
    July 9, 2008 at 15:50


    We’ve just been warned off links by the headmaster, but I almost never use them, and this one nicely sums up the details you asked about, on Obama’s effin’ faith-based initiative and where he draws the lines.


    I don’t really know about guns, but it’s an article of faith (so to say) among democrats that they can’t be seriously against guns because of the bubba vote, so I’m sure he’s OK with it. Plus the supreme court’s recent ruling makes it a non-issue.

    The actual arms may have changed fromn the 18th century to now,, but the bigger changes are: We have a huge standing army (which we weren’t intended to), citizenship has been dramatically expanded, and we’re now an urban society for the most part. That is one hideous pigdog of a poorly worded amendment, you gotta admit.

    If you think preaching separation of church and state is a winner for a US presidential candidate, you’ve been in Paris too long! But I have seen a video clip of Obaba explaining (in a church) why we don’t, can’t, and shouldn’t run the gov’t by Biblican principles. He says, OK, what principles would we start with? Prohibition of shellfish?

  118. 120 Will Rhodes
    July 9, 2008 at 15:56

    @ Mark

    and Will, just for ref : WHYS isn’t paid for out of the license fee, though of course the Foreign Office grant comes from the tax payer another way…

    Hey – I wasn’t trying to insinuate that you were paid out of the license fee, I just saw the way the convo was going and wanted to bring in another subject. If you have more than one thread you normally get many more posters! 🙂

    In answer to my own question about whether WHYS is value for money – I bloody well know it is! It is almost invaluable for bringing people from around the world together. For any sociology professor or student it is a great resource – could you imagine some of the politicians looking into the show and blog?

    It would open their eyes.

  119. 121 Jonathan (sunny San Francisco)
    July 9, 2008 at 16:01


    So, since he’s not white, your “take-away” is what, exactly? That he had the courage to speak the truth, and deliver a presumably unwelcome but important message instead of demagoging? I agree. And if your formulation is correct, it’s illustrative of an important advantage that a black president willhave over a white one, isn’t it?

    (If this were that, then the other…. phoeey. If my aunt had an appendage she’d be my uncle. If Obama were the singing nun, he’d be singing. So what?)

  120. 122 Will Rhodes
    July 9, 2008 at 16:15

    @ Bryan/Tino

    After being born and almost solely raised in the UK I cna speak with some confidence that what you read is not what you get in the UK regarding ‘The Muslim Situation’.

    There have been many programs about the gang problems where Muslim and black males fight each other over ‘turf’ – how there is a culture of violence between the two and both are portrayed as the norm in those communities – which most Britons know is incorrect. The same goes for the written media – if you should see some of the stories that the Daily Mail etc come out with about Europe, about how Britain would have to eat ‘Straight’ bananas – well, its laughable.

    There is very little constraint on the UK press, it has been know to cause a bit of angst over the years with stories that are, well shall we say, not quite telling the truth. Why they get away with it I don’t know – but as is said in the UK, you can’t gag the press.

    There are in many councils idiots who bring about PC rubbish, but I bet I can say that about every where else.

    As always, I wouldn’t believe all you read.

  121. 123 Jonathan (sunny San Francisco)
    July 9, 2008 at 16:16


    I think it’s very interesting indeed that WHYS is a Foreign Office operation, or rather that they’re fotting the bill. Very smart idea, and surely great bang for the buck. I can’t help compariing it to the oafish, ham-handed recent efforts by the US to be loved, including an Arabic TV channel that nobody watches and a massive PR campaign that nobody believes. Maybe if we stopped kidnapping people and torturing them–that would be compelling, and surely cost-effective.

  122. 124 Ibn Al Asad
    July 9, 2008 at 16:22


    Yes, and of course we should believe what you have written here. I’ve been to the UK many times and saw the problem for myself since I’ve been studying it for the last three years.

    I would not blame the press Will, I would blame Islamists. The press which you accuse of “exagerating” is simply reporting which you and others concerned with Islamophobia do not want to hear.

    So, you dismiss it as “rubbish”.

    Well perhaps you will reconsider in ten years when the Islamic revolution in Europe really picks up and traditional British institutions are swept aside in favor of the “more diverse” ones in line with Sharia law. But then, it will be too late.

  123. 125 Jonathan (sunny San Francisco)
    July 9, 2008 at 16:28

    @ Will again–

    UK newspaapers, ah yes. Truly the best of “Times” and the worst of “Times.” You have a shining beacon like the Independent, which I can’t find in San Francisco anymore, and you have the bloody-screaming tabloids too. Both deliciously outside the good gray bounds of US journalism. God love ’em.

    I have a friend in London who takes her tabloid as gospel. Every chat finds her bemoaning the crisis of an island sinking beneath the weight of foreign hordes with their strange ways, taking everything over. She’s convinced, simultaneously, that they all flood in and go on the dole, and that they get the best jobs. I now just make polite noises until she wears herself out.

  124. 126 Tino
    July 9, 2008 at 16:32

    “Maybe if we stopped kidnapping people and torturing them–that would be compelling, and surely cost-effective.”

    Torture? Get over it, please. Water-boarding is a complete joke. SEALs get FAR worse in their training. I have been in worse situations playing with friends in the pool and ocean. We are not maiming people or using harsh physical abuse. Anyone who crosses the line is punished.

    “There are in many councils idiots who bring about PC rubbish, but I bet I can say that about every where else.”

    I have not seen any of that here in the US. We have some idiots but the government does not seem to be loving up to Muslims nearly as much as in the UK. No local councils saying not liking spicy food is racist. Have yet to see a real no-go area. No priests getting beaten for being priests. No booties for our sniffer dogs.

  125. 127 Ibn Al Asad
    July 9, 2008 at 16:48

    @ Jonathan

    Well perhaps she is right. While the press does exaggerate at times, there is a core truth to their reports.

    While you in San Francisco are concerned with politeness and acceptance and how to best accomodate our new “guests” lest you offend their relegion or ways,

    those very same people are only concerned with how to propagate THEIR religion and THEIR ways by sweeping aside our own.

    So you can keep on making polite noises, keep on despising those unafraid of political correctness, the TRUTH will remain unchanged.

  126. 128 steve
    July 9, 2008 at 16:51

    Okay, if I were to vote, which I’m not, Obama officially lost my vote. HE says though he wishes immigrants to the US would learn english, he said he wants all of our kids will learn to speak spanish so they can communicate with those who refused to learn english. So he suggests immigrants should learn english, but that our kids must learn spanish so that they can communicate with people who didn’t think it was important enough to learn the language. Way to enable people Obama.

    I cannot believe the rubbish we have to chose between here.

  127. 129 Asad Babyl
    July 9, 2008 at 17:02


    Obamination is trying to please everyone at once. I don’t believe he is even thinking of what he will do if he becomes president.

  128. 130 Shirley
    July 9, 2008 at 17:15

    This is not what I found. In fact, several passages from the Qur’an seem to show favour to women; and there are even several narrations from Prophet Muhamad attriubting high status and value to women.

    The Qur’an makes it clear that men and women come from the same created source. Our Shia Islamic Qur’an commentators have re-emphasised that message. “[God] created you from a single being, and of the same (kind) did He make his mate.” (7:189) Aga Mahdi Puya: “There is a general reference to the creation of man, whether male or female, from a single source.” The following commentary is from another verse: “The first woman was created from that single soul.” See also 4:1 and 49:13. The Qur’an also emphasises the equality of men and women in terms of their deeds. “I will not waste the work of a worker among you, whether male or female, the one of you being from the other.” (3:195) The commentary of another similar verse states, “So far as spiritual merits are concerned there is no difference between man and woman.” A commentary from yet another verse indicates that it was revealed upon the inquiries of a woman to Prophet Muhammad. See also Qur’an 4:124 and 33:35. This same sense of sameness and equitibility is established when the Qur’an refers to marital couples. “[Your wives] are an apparel for you and you are an apparel for them” (2:87) “He created mates for you from yourselves that you may find rest in them, and He put between you love and compassion.” (30:21)

    Several narrations from Prophet Muhammad explain the special regard with which women are held in Islam. Prophet Muhammad responded to a woman who asked what rights women have over men, “The angel Gabriel made so many reccommendations on behalf of women that I thought that a man could not say the slightest thing to her.” (no citation) He often said, “Treat your women well, for they are your partners.” In an oft-repeated citation, he advised a man to show devotion to his mother, then his mother, and then his father. (Bukhari et al) Another famous saying of his is “Paradise lies at the feet of the mother.” (Nisa’i et al) He often remarked on the value of daughters. “Daughters are a blessing.” (Wasa’il ash-Shi’a) “Your best children are yoru daughters.” (Bihar al Anwar) “The sign of a lucky woman is that her first child is a girl.” (Mustadrak) “On Judgement Day, God will bring happiness to the man who pleased his daughters.” The successors of Prophet Muhammad continued these traditions. One of them, Imam Sadiq, commented, “Most benefits come from women.” (Wasa’il ash-Shi’a)

    I wonder if Dave even bothered to read the Qur’an or any Islamic literature concerning women at all.

  129. 131 Shirley
    July 9, 2008 at 17:19

    I was responding to Dave’s opinion that Islam has intrinsic support for honour killings: “Islam as an idea has never championed human rights of women” and “According to the quran, women are a source of shame, and should be treated as such.”

    It was chopped off when I posted.

  130. 132 Tino
    July 9, 2008 at 18:12

    I am sure he did, perhaps he read other passages (Quran/Hadith)like:

    “I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-Fire were women….[because] they are ungrateful to their husbands and they are deficient in intelligence. ” (The Prophet Muhammad) Sahih Bukhari V 2, B 24, N 541

    “And if ye fear that ye will not deal fairly by the orphans, marry of the women, who seem good to you, two or three or four; and if ye fear that ye cannot do justice (to so many) then one (only) or (the captives) that your right hands possess. Thus it is more likely that ye will not do injustice. ” 004.003

    “Allah chargeth you concerning (the provision for) your children: to the male the equivalent of the portion of two females, and if there be women more than two, then theirs is two-thirds of the inheritance, and if there be one (only) then the half. And to each of his parents a sixth of the inheritance, if he have a son; and if he have no son and his parents are his heirs, then to his mother appertaineth the third; and if he have brethren, then to his mother appertaineth the sixth, after any legacy he may have bequeathed, or debt (hath been paid). Your parents and your children: Ye know not which of them is nearer unto you in usefulness. It is an injunction from Allah. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise. ” 004.011

    “If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way. ” 004.015

    “Women who are divorced shall wait, keeping themselves apart, three (monthly) courses. And it is not lawful for them that they should conceal that which Allah hath created in their wombs if they are believers in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands would do better to take them back in that case if they desire a reconciliation. And they (women) have rights similar to those (of men) over them in kindness, and men are a degree above them. Allah is Mighty, Wise.” 002.228

    I could go on for a really, really long time but I will end with this one:

    ““Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband’s) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).” 004.034

  131. 133 Shirley
    July 9, 2008 at 18:19

    Hello, Steve
    It’s not about hating Israel. Granted, I have no affection for the government of Israel. But the land, the people, the way that democracy is carried out, are things to be appreciated. I don’t go on and on about it for the same reason that I don’t go on and on about Spain. I feel that there are bigger fish to fry. What I have been doing is keeping track of the actions of Israel and Palestine since the Egyptian-brokered truce of 19 June.

  132. 134 Tino
    July 9, 2008 at 18:52


    Sad article, cant believe the punishment way way too light. Anyone else think cyclists seem to be the most inconsiderate? At my campus, I have seen them run stop signs and nearly hit them because of it. They run red lights all the time and just try to use crosswalks to jump in front of cars. I was nearly hit by one, they seem to think they own the road AND sidewalks by me. Share the road should be applied to them, I think.

  133. 135 Mark Sandell
    July 9, 2008 at 19:04

    For goodness sake, can we stop quoting holy books at each other ? I think we’re better than that.
    Oh, and here’s something to make Tino smile…


  134. 136 Tino
    July 9, 2008 at 19:26


    Decent article, I guess. I did read the bus driver one but I am unfamiliar with the other – couldn’t find it either just now. I would point out his quote of 10 million incidents per year would obviously include Muslims so I am trying to figure out exactly what his point is.

    As for Muslims creating their own fake stories – it also happens.


    Nothing I posted is listed as TB by Mark Steel, so I still fail to see why you do not trust your own news agencies, including the BBC.

  135. 137 Mark Sandell
    July 9, 2008 at 19:31

    Mark Steel is a comedian Tino, i just thought it would lighten the debate a bit, goodness knows we could do with it.!
    all best

  136. 138 Bryan
    July 9, 2008 at 23:16

    Bob in Queensland July 9, 2008 at 10:54 am,

    I posted a short response to the above comment of yours shortly after you posted it but it didn’t go through. Yes I was delighted that C4 was vindicated but I don’t agree with your implication that the CPS was less than enthusiastic about charging C4. In fact, they were pushing very hard indeed for a successful prosecution. Also, when you think about it, they could have simply declined to prosecute.

    I note that you didn’t engage with any of my other points made at 9:49 am. No arguments there then?

    Will Rhodes July 9, 2008 at 4:15 pm,

    I don’t live in the UK and I don’t read the Daily Mail and my observations are based on wide reading from a variety of sources. I find it astonishing that people can so easily dismiss the gravest threat to Britain since the Nazis.

  137. 139 Bob in Queensland
    July 10, 2008 at 05:30

    @ Bryan

    Regarding the Channel 4 case, I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the role of the CPS in the UK.

    In effect they are equivalent to the District Attorney’s office in the USA and they have the final decision about whether or not to take a case to court. In the case of Channel 4, they decided that no laws had been broken and decided NOT to take C4 to court….so they DID “decline to prosecute”.

    Where it got slightly more complicated was the CPS saying that, while no criminal offence was committed, they thought C4 may have violated their broadcasting licence and referred the case to Ofcom (sort of like referring it to the FCC in the USA). Ofcom also investigated and gave C4 a clean bill of health; however C4 took the CPS to court in a civil case because the allegations of bias were never withdrawn.

    As I said in my reply, I focussed on the C4 case because (since I used to work in broadcasting and know some of the people involved) I could comment on that example off the top of my head. I also commented in another post about the “piggy bank ban” which is basically a non-story.

    To comment in detail on your other examples I’d have to spend time Googling what actually happened and just didn’t have time. However, I think Mark Sandell’s comments sum up the situation quite well. Certain elements of the British press are “spinning” non-stories in a rather “Islamaphobic” way to create a problem and controversy where none really exist and that’s the stuff that is being repeated overseas.

    This is not to say that some issues aren’t genuine….just that it’s wrong to say things like Islam is the greatest threat to the UK since Hitler. The reality is very different than a few extreme headlines imply.

  138. 140 Bryan
    July 10, 2008 at 09:45

    Well, thanks for that clarification on CPS. I believe the CPS said something at the time like C4’s investigation was a “complete distortion” of what was being preached in the mosques. I find this attitude really disturbing on the part of a body that is in a central position of power in the British legal establishment. Did they eventually decline to prosecute because they finally realised they had no case?

    Well, maybe I am overstating my case a bit with the Nazi parallel, but the thin end of the wedge of radical Islam being inserted into British society should be of great concern to anyone who wants Britain to retain its traditions as a Western Christian country and maintain its hard-earned freedoms. Muslims are testing the water with things like piggy banks. They are trying to see how far the weak-kneed British establishment will buckle in the face of pressure regarding ridiculous and purely imaginary concerns. Complaints about piggy banks should be dismissed as the absurdities that they are. Why is this not happening? And why are Christians in their own country being denied complete freedom of worship in case it “offends” other faiths while the authorities are bending over backwards to accommodate Muslims?

    Again, this situation can only get worse while this Labour government is in power.

  139. 141 victork13
    July 10, 2008 at 10:14

    Re Channel 4: it’s impossible to overstate the extent to which many key British institutions have been politicised under the Labour government and operate as its agents.

    The C4 undercover mosque report was entirely factual. But Muslims are a constituency that the British government is determined to cultivate. It should therefore have come as no surprise that a range of supposedly independent institutions, from the CPS to the police, immediately sprung into action to intimidate and denounce C4 on behalf of the government and in defence of Islam. Neo-Stalinism.


    A programme, also by C4 as I recall, examined how Muslim men in cities in the north of England were systematically grooming underage white girls to be sexually exploited. That of course set the alarm bells ringing: controversial, factual and damaging to the reputation of Islam and Muslims. The police intervened on that occasion to stop the programme being broadcast as originally scheduled.

    A string of establishment figures, from the Archbishop of Canterbury to the Lord Chief Justice of England & Wales, have now taken to campaigning on behalf of Sharia. We are repeatedly told that it is ‘inevitable’ and we must accommodate ourselves to it, or that it is perfectly reasonable for ‘elements’ of Sharia to be incorporated into British law, and how no reasonable person could possibly object to that. Meanwhile the British government is quietly pushing all sorts of initiatives to promote Islam: from grants to Muslim organisations (even though it does not and legally cannot fund the established Church of England), pushing things like Sharia-compliant-banking, extending hate laws to protect Islam from criticism (in effect blasphemy laws), and allowing the country to be used as a haven for Islamic terrorists fleeing from justice in their own countries (the security forces, for many years, are reported to have had an informal understanding with these people: you can plan terror attacks on the countries you came from and we’ll turn a blind eye – so long as you don’t plan or execute anything here in Britain. 7/7 ended that cosy deal. And to think that amongst the many reasons given for attacking Saddam was his alleged links to Islamic terrorists. Britain’s Labour government has been a greater facilitator of Islamic terror than Saddam ever was).

  140. 142 Bryan
    July 10, 2008 at 12:19

    victork13 July 10, 2008 at 10:14 am,

    Thanks for that measured analysis of the situation. Those who aim for domination by Muslims over other faiths in Britain evidently overreached themselves with the CPS case. It was too much, too soon. The question people should be asking is what the situation will be like in ten years’ time if current trends are allowed to continue.

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