02
Jul
08

On air: Iran and Israel..The World Have Your Say debate

With relations never good, suspicion defining what each country thinks about the other, we’re trying today to get a sane and rational debate going about Isreal and Iran. With Isreal having what many believe was a dry run at a military air strike against Iran, how can these two countries now NOT head towards some sort of conflict, proxy or otherwise. The best up-sum of where we are now, for me, appeared a while back in the magazine New Republic:

“According to Israeli intelligence, Iran will be able to produce a nuclear bomb as soon as 2009. In Washington, fear is growing that either Israel or the Bush administration plans to order strikes against Iran. In Israel, however, there is fear of a different kind. Israelis worry not that the West will act rashly, but that it will fail to act at all. And, while strategists here differ over the relative efficacy of sanctions or a military strike, nearly everyone agrees on this point: Israel cannot live with a nuclear Iran.”

So there it is, bold as brass, simple, and to the point: Isreal cannot live with a nuclear Iran. There is a strong feeling (granted, very much behind the scenes) in Jerusalem, that whatever the diplomatic chatter, whatever the moral arguments, Iran gets the bomb equates to Iran gets bombed. But doesn’t Iran have the right to defend itself too ?

And to what extent is Iran a threat to Isreal — or is the real concern here, what could happen inside Iran, if, after they have the necessary nuclear kit, there’s a change of leadership ? The recent offer of US talks was progress – undoubtedly there was a finesse that we perhaps haven’t seen before. The US offer was made to (indeed, it was addressed to) three of Irans top politicians, leaving wriggle room in other quarters. Clever. So if the US can enter a dialogue, or at least not close down the very idea of dialogue, why cant Isreal and Iran do the same thing — with each other ?

That’s what we’re trying for.

But how do the ordinary people of Isreal and Iran feel about this ? Is all conflict between the two nations artificially created ? Has Isreal over-reacted, and is Iran ready to do the same thing: ie over-react ? Who, or what drives this – the politicians, the people, or other external forces ? If you believe that both countries are abnormal (ie not what you and I might recognise as “normal”) can they ever be at peace – true, lasting, respectful peace ?

Our cast list so far is looking good, people on both sides of the debate plus REAL voices. A leading writer from Haaretz, an Iranian blogger, a Professor from Imperial College, and the man who wrote the Nuclear Sphinx of Tehran. But this is not exclusively for people in Isreal and Iran, it’s for you too. So please join us.


348 Responses to “On air: Iran and Israel..The World Have Your Say debate”


  1. 1 Dan
    June 30, 2008 at 17:00

    If Iran gets a nuclear weapon then every other Arab Islamic nation will want one and the Middle East with it unstable regimes and radical Islamists will become nuclearized with absolutely no rational controls on those weapons.
    Presently willing to murder other Muslims, destroy the houses of their God and destroy the world and even God himself, why would anyone want people who would explode a nuclear weapon in a civilian city then dance around like naked wood nymphs and scream Allah Akbar?
    If Iran gets a nuclear weapon they have the human delivery system (Hamas & Hezbollah) to deliver it.
    They must be stopped at all costs and if some Muslim is “offended” by what I have said here my question to them is why haven’t they stood up against the radicals that control their “religion” and destiny?

  2. June 30, 2008 at 17:29

    No one has a “right” to nuclear weapons. Israel is finally preparing to take the action which should have been taken long ago, i.e. to strike at Iran’s nuclear facilties. The world cannot allow such a regime as Iran’s to possess nuclear technology. There are enough lunatics with nuclear weapons out there, the world does not need one more.

    I fully agree with Mr. Herzog, enough words, now is the time to strike.

  3. 3 steve
    June 30, 2008 at 17:45

    I really wish Iran would get a sane, rational government, and then there wouldn’t even be this issue.

  4. 4 Colleen
    June 30, 2008 at 17:51

    It’s hard to make the argument to someone: “I’m rational and you are not, so I can have a weapon of mass destruction and you can not.” In fact, that sounds like a pretty irrational argument to me.

    Unless all nations are willing to get rid of (is that even possible??) all nuclear weapons, then other countries are going to want them and pursue them. And how can someone holding a weapon tell someone else they arent allowed to have one? all nuclear weapons have to go…

  5. 5 nicholas kariuki frm embu
    June 30, 2008 at 17:57

    israel is not a responsible country to own a nuclear bombs.other country in middle east should be allowed to own nuclear bombs to neutralize israel threat.its sad that israel used cluster bombs last year against lebanon.

  6. 6 steve
    June 30, 2008 at 18:09

    @ Colleen

    Would you want a street person, who shouts at themselves, smells like urine, to have a firearm? After all, the cops have firearms too. No you wouldn’t, becuase the person is probably crazy and would/could harm people.

    The point of nuclear weapons is DETERRANCE. Deterrance only works against those who are afraid of dying. Islamic whackos aren’t afraid of death. they in fact welcome it. Hence, nuclear deterrance doesn’t work on someone who doesn’t fear death. Hence, they are irrational. Not fearing death is irrational, especially when you think you’re going to get some heavenly reward for dying.

    That is why. I pray you understand. Israel has had nuclear weapons for 40 years, and has never used them, nor has threatened to use them, yet it’s whacky neighbors continue to attack it, because they aren’t afraid of death, and arent rational (though israel couldn’t nuke it’s neighbors anyways, as the fallout would affect israel as well).

  7. 7 steve
    June 30, 2008 at 18:10

    “israel is not a responsible country to own a nuclear bombs.other country in middle east should be allowed to own nuclear bombs to neutralize israel threat.its sad that israel used cluster bombs last year against lebanon.”

    So Israel needs to be nuked by it’s neighbors, yet Israel shouldn’t be allowed to have nuclear weapons? That’s WHY they have them, because people lik eyou who want israel destroyed will have a difficult time to destroy it. You want israel nuked, yet you say it’s a shame israel used cluster bombs last year. Is it also a shame all the suicide bombings in Lebanon and Iraq as well? Wasn’t there a bombing in Lebanon last week? Was that a shame, or is it only a shame when Israel does something other than die?

  8. 8 Dan
    June 30, 2008 at 18:18

    @Colleen
    It is EASY making an argument that someone (or group) is not rational.
    Do you think that worshiping death, murdering innocents, crashing planes into buildings, putting rat poison tainted nails into bombs strapped to suicide bombers are acts of rational people?
    Of course not. They are acts of madmen.
    It is similarly inconceivable that nuclear weapons will be eliminated.
    If the Arab countries acted rationally they would engage in peaceful co-existence with Israel (as the USA did with the Soviet Union) and enjoy an economic renaissance benefitting their people and countries but they are so ensconced in their hate that they cannot think rationally any longer.

  9. 9 Colleen
    June 30, 2008 at 18:22

    @ steve

    Well I brought up nuclear proliferation during the gun debate the other day. I agree with your point, we should limit the proliferation of both nuclear weapons and small arms because the basic laws of probability will say that the lower the number of weapons, the less likelihood of accidents and deaths caused by weapons. And who is anyone to say that he/she is capable of having something while someone else that he/she deems less capable should not? Compromise is the only way to solve this problem.

  10. 10 Colleen
    June 30, 2008 at 18:25

    @ Dan

    Many people would say that the US is just as irrational and opressive as the “madmen” you describe. It’s a matter of perspective.

  11. 11 steve
    June 30, 2008 at 18:33

    @ Colleen

    Yes, it would be nice if there were no nuclear weapons, but there was some good from them, it does deter wars between those who have them and who are rational. Such deterrance won’t work on people who welcome death. I’m not the biggest fan of say a country like Russia, but I don’t lose sleep at night knowing they have nuclear weapons (other than lax security, or rogues selling weapons), but a nation like Iran having nukes, scares the hell out of me. If they got a secular government, I wouldn’t be nearly as frightened.

    We do what you bring up all the time. People with both arms and legs tell people who are missing their limbs they cannot drive a car. We have people with eyesight telling blind people they cannot drive. Who am I as a person with sight to tell a blind person they cannot drive? But it makes sense to not allow them to drive.

    Would you give your 5 year old a loaded gun? I would hope not. The Iranian government is run by religious fanatics. They are irrational. I wouldn’t want a fanatic to have a slingshot let alone a nuclear weapon.

  12. 12 Colleen
    June 30, 2008 at 18:40

    @ steve

    The presence or absence of limbs is an objective fact. I’m sure if there were cars designed to make it possible for people to drive without limbs it would happen.

    “Rationality” is a subjective fact, based on the perspective of the person making the judgement.

  13. 13 Count Iblis
    June 30, 2008 at 18:43

    I would suggest that in the program we discuss on the basis of proven facts and not on allegations. When we talk about the “Iranian nuclear weapons program”, then it should be clearly mentioned that only a few countries alledge that such a program exists, in particular the US and Israel.

    Most other countries are not sure about whether Iran has such a program or has the intention to make nuclear weapons. Iran strongly denies that they want to make nuclear weapons. The Russian foreign minister has recently said that there is no proof that Iran has a nuclear weapons program.

    As I explained here, it is very unreasonable to demand that Iran suspend enriching uranium.

    The issue really is about Iran’s sovereign right to put their own uranium in ther own centrifuges for use in their own nuclear powerplants. Does Israel or the US have the right to attack Iran for refusing to stop doing this without even any proof of their allegations?

    If we feel insulted if Iran makes statements about Israel that we don’t like or if they question the Holocaust, then why is it ok. for us to make unproven allegations about their nuclear program and then to impose sanctions and even talk about military actions?

  14. 14 Dan
    June 30, 2008 at 18:44

    @Colleen,
    There is no relative morality or perspective as you suggest.
    If there was no USA the world would not be a better place but one of darkness and oppression.
    If you truly believe that the USA is oppressive and irrational then you really need to travel the world and see how it actually works.
    I do not know what country you live in but tell me what country has the largess of the United States?
    If you live in the United States I am appalled that you are not proud of your country despite the mistakes we make.
    Certainly we make mistakes…ALL COUNTRIES DO but we have the ability and openness to correct those mistakes.
    Additionally I cannot understand how you can apply laws of probability to people using nuclear weapons. It simply does not work. There are published studies refuting your assertion.

  15. 15 Mark Sandell
    June 30, 2008 at 18:46

    Right, just an early warning here : stick to the topic, and maintain courtesy. WHYS will always try to bring people together to talk, but with courtesy (that word again) and respect. It could be a good conversation to hear- let’s give it a try.

  16. 16 Dennis
    June 30, 2008 at 18:50

    Thanks Mark Sandell; posting june 30, 2008 @ 6.46pm

    i accept the warning from WHYS early and thanks for posting this on the whys debate.

    Dennis
    Onondaga Community College
    Syracuse, New York
    United States of America

  17. 17 Colleen
    June 30, 2008 at 19:04

    @ Dan,

    I am from the US and I have traveled the world.

    And yes game theory may say that if everyone has a weapon then likelihood of nuclear war is low. But game theory also states that an even lower likelihood, likelihood = 0, of nuclear war is if no one has any nuclear weapons at all.

    I do believe in the ideals of America and they have taught me to respect other cultures and try to learn why things are as they are. American ideals have also taught me to question authority and analyze situations with an open mind.

    Yes Islamic extremism is a serious problem in today’s world, but there are historical situations that have culminated in the present day conflicts. Calling people madmen and bullying other countries on the global scale does not solve problems. Compromise, respect, diplomacy, and the ability of both sides to admit wrongs will be the only way to move forward.

  18. 18 Justin from Iowa
    June 30, 2008 at 19:10

    On rational possession of nuclear weapons.

    This topic has come up before on WHYS.

    The desire to have and use nuclear weapons is, at its root, irrational.

    Nuclear weapons are made to kill civilians. They are either a terror weapon or the ultimate deterrant (if you attack us, we will nuke you). History has shown that when faced with Annhilation, people fight to the death. Iran has made it clear that it sponsors those who are willing to use that weapon of annihilation, and must be considered a country interested in the weapon as a terror weapon rather than deterrent. Iran’s possessing a nuclear weapon, or even the strong indication that they have one, will invite immediate attack and attempt at total destruction from Israel.

    That Iran disregards this is further proof of irrationality on a national leadership scale.

  19. 19 Mark Sandell
    June 30, 2008 at 19:11

    Hi Dennis, ok “warning” might be a bit strong,buti can just sense where others may take this and i don’t think any of us need yet another history lesson on either side. I’d like (and i won;t hold my breath !) something new that informs the debate we’re going to have.
    all best
    Mark

  20. June 30, 2008 at 19:15

    @Colleen

    “Compromise, respect, diplomacy, and the ability of both sides to admit wrongs will be the only way to move forward.”

    Yes, with civilized nations that is only way forward. However, we can seek to compromise, pay respect and sing kumbayah with Islamic extremists all we want, but the final outcome of that will be another attack in the place of a diplomatic solution.

    Islamic extremists do not play by the same rules as the rest of the civilized world does.

    The only way to destroy Islamic extremism is to destroy it, economically and militarily. How may thousands have to die before we realize it? How many more 9/11s will it take before we face that uncomfortable truth?

  21. 21 Mark from kansas
    June 30, 2008 at 19:16

    There is not enoguh evidence to support the Iran is developing nuclear wepons. They are hostile to their neighbors though. I do not trust any statement that comes from the Bush administration, and military action is inapropriate with out extensive one oo one dialogue. You can not comprimise or negotiate through sound bites and video clips.
    Israel has nuclear wepons, probably some pretty powerful ones, so they can respond appropriately if need be. I would not put it past israel to make a first strike. This would be a great tragety many millions of innocent people would die, and the conflict would be over.

  22. 22 Colleen
    June 30, 2008 at 19:26

    “The desire to have and use nuclear weapons is, at its root, irrational ”

    @ Justin

    I fully agree, so my stance is that until countries can all agree to disarm, the armed countries will have low credibility when dealing with unarmed countries pursuing weapons. I am not defending Iran, but I understand why the words of armed countries seem to be falling on deaf ears.

  23. 23 Dan
    June 30, 2008 at 19:28

    @Colleen and with respects to Mark….
    I am not sure where anyone has denigrated one another we are all just having a lively debate and as Colleen & I have been talking we have delved deeper for deeper understanding to the basic question. Sometimes one never knows where the discussion will go and that is the magic of this forum.
    Colleen, I do not think it possible any longer to eliminate nuclear weapons thus we want to limit them to responsible nations. Yes, I think Iran is an iresponsible nation controlled by dictatorial religious fanatics. Their stated goal is to wipe Israel off the face of the earth and as they worship death and destruction can there be any doubt at all as to their intentions? I think not and that is why the civilized world is taking action, weak as it is, against them.
    Additionally, it is valid to respect other cultures but when that culture threatens the very existence of another, or mine, then that culture must destroyed or reformed.
    Your retort might be what about the Soviet Union but the Russians are rational people who did not desire the end of the planet as do the radical Islamists who have shown time and again that they only desire compromise to rearm and attack again at a time of their choosing.
    We call them madmen as that is what they have demonstrated they are and they do not hold the values you & I have.

  24. 24 selena
    June 30, 2008 at 19:33

    @Admiral Ackbar

    Unfortunately *lunatic* is in the eye of the beholder.

    The first person who tells the uncomfortable truth is always regarded as a lunatic.

    The earth is not flat!

  25. 25 Mark from kansas
    June 30, 2008 at 19:39

    @Admiral Ackbar

    Education and an oportunity for prosperty I think would be a far greater wepon against islamic exterimists. Someone with a future and a chance to support their family is less likely to blow themselves or others up. Someone whos parents were killed in a bomb attack, accidentaly shot in a house to house search, or malicously killed by soldiers who have been in the feild to long, will breed many generations of extereimists with no potential to succeed in a peaceful world, as long as they are surronded by the horrors of war. Fund secular education and develope industry, and we will not have to pay for as many wars. Killing hundreds of thousands of people does not solve a damn thing, it just makes the situation worse.

  26. June 30, 2008 at 19:54

    @ Mark from Kansas,

    Yes, I absolutely agree that poverty is the perfect breeding ground for jihad. However we must also destroy the leaders of these extremist groups and defend ourselves against their aggression since investment is a long-term project.

  27. 27 Justin from Iowa
    June 30, 2008 at 19:59

    Success is never a weapon against extremists. “We will make your lives better because you sponsor terrorism” does not work. “If you kill us we are going to kill you back” doesn’t really work either.

    “Lets not kill each other” followed by “Our lives suck, you’ve got A, I’ve got B, we could both use them, lets trade” is ideally the way to go, but few peoples can get away from “Lets not kill each other”

    Alternatively, a common enemy can help unify disparate groups, but I doubt china or india or norway could be convinced to invade the whole of the middle east, and alien invaders are right out.

  28. 28 Mark from kansas
    June 30, 2008 at 20:05

    @ Admiral Ackbar

    War is the fuel these extremists leaders use to recruit and a lack of education is the hook. There is no short term solution, expecially not aggression. By staying out of conflict and not bringing it to the extermists, It will allow a good education to develop and lower retention in these groups. These leaders have every right to disagree, dislike, and call for violence if they wish. We need to get the people who hear these words to a point where they can dismiss the insanity and misrepresentation of Jihad as these extreimist leaders see it, and take the path that helps them have health relations with their neghbors, and families, even if they do not like them.

  29. June 30, 2008 at 20:15

    @Mark from Kansas

    War is the secondary recuiting tool these people use. Poverty and liberation theology they preach (Wahabism) is foremost. If young men such as those in Iraq and Palestine cannot get jobs, live in poverty, are agitated by their Mullahs who blame these things on the West, the young men are driven to hatred and violence. War is the natural manifestation of this.

    This formula has been used throughout history to drive unhappy population to war besides the ones I mentioned above. Notable examples include Nazi revolution in Germany and the Russian Revolutions of 1905, 1917 and 1918.

    We must strike at the propaganda machine first and provide these people with economic opportunities secondly. Civilizing these people will take 50-100 years. Meanwhile we must be prepared to defend ourselves with force.

  30. 30 steve
    June 30, 2008 at 20:16

    @ Selena

    These are the lunatics that think by killing innocent civilians they get 72 virgins in heaven from the fictional sky deity, type of lunacy. Remember, there’s no god, no afterlife, and no virgins in the heaven that doesn’t exist either. That they believe it makes them loons.

  31. 31 Jens
    June 30, 2008 at 20:23

    the problem lies within the incredible long term memory capabilities foster by religion. just think about it the shias and the sunnis have been “at war’ with one anthoer for over 100 years. what makes us believe that a people who still holds grudges over the crusades will forget some “minor” transgressions like the formation of israel, mutiple wars fought ontheir holy lands etc.

    it is a culture build on claiming victory even in defeat and therfore purpurtraiting a never ending struggle with a stream of self proclaimed victories against the west, hence allowing for the recruitment of more marters, who are willing to give their lives in the name of their religiouse believes. this is nothing new and do you really think that we can stop such actions?

  32. 32 Dan
    June 30, 2008 at 20:25

    @ Steve
    I have never understood the 72 virgins nonsense. So after one dies and no longer has a coporeal body they get sex with 72 virgins….and they are no longer coporeal?
    …and what about the Virgins. Are they told that if they live a pious, humble life covered from head to toe they will be rewarded in heaven by being raped by an insane terrorist murder?
    Sounds rational to me….NOT.

  33. 33 Jens
    June 30, 2008 at 20:26

    “Remember, there’s no god, no afterlife, and no virgins in the heaven that doesn’t exist either. That they believe it makes them loons.”

    steve that makes 80% of america lunatics as well, since that is the number of people believing god exists and that there is a talking snake and paradise and women are made out of mens ribs and ……………….

  34. 34 Will Rhodes
    June 30, 2008 at 20:32

    If Iran wants to have nuclear power then so be it – I can’t see what is wrong with that. But, yes there is always a but – if Iran wants a nuclear weapon then I have to disagree with them having one.

    I don’t want any country to have them – just to make myself clear. Nuclear power can aid many things, getting rid of the waste is another issue, but with cheap, and relatively clean, nuclear energy could be a good thing.

    Sabre rattling won’t help anyone.

  35. 35 steve
    June 30, 2008 at 20:39

    @ Jens, I meant all that stuff, and then thinking if you kill innocent people you get that stuff. Not just believing in that stuff. People can believe in fairy tales without being loons, but to kill in order to achieve said fairy tale makes you a lunatic.

  36. 36 Jens
    June 30, 2008 at 21:09

    Steve,

    Ok that way sounds better.

    I mean they can believ whatever they want just do not force it upon me. iam not out there trying to convert people to atheisme, even though it would be the rational choice.

  37. 37 Bryan
    June 30, 2008 at 22:52

    I found this interesting:

    “This week WHYS will host a discussion with an Iranian/Israeli panel.” A Palestinian would not join the panel debating justice for Jews from Arab countries. Iranians and Israelis sitting down for a civilised discussion could be a first.

    The Iranian reaction to the Israeli training flight was very instructive indeed. Faced with the prospect of an actual Israeli attack, they said, “It’s impossible,” and the very next thing the said was that they would not attack Israel first. So it appears that they first went into denial and then claimed that they didn’t mean all that talk about wiping Israel off the map.

    The business about not attacking Israel is a bad joke. Iran has been waging a terror war by proxy against Israel for a long time now, using Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad. Yet Colleen seems to think it would be a good idea for Israel to disarm. Which country in its right collective mind would disarm under the threats Israel faces?

    Iran was also implicated in terror attacks against targets in Argentina, which resulted in horrendous slaughter. Those targeted were Jews, not Israelis, and there is no doubt that Iran’s hatred for Israel is based on the fact of it being a predominantly Jewish state.

    Yes, they are madmen, and very dangerous indeed. But let’s allow them to develop the bomb because others have it. That is simply absurd.

  38. 38 Shirley
    June 30, 2008 at 23:19

    I do hope that we all passed reading class. Karnie’s request was “This week WHYS will host a discussion with an Iranian/Israeli panel. What would you ask them?” Sometimes it seems that threads like these which are intended to gather listener questions for guest panelists are taken over with arguments before the show has aired. If I were a WHYS staff hosting the show, I woudn’t find such swamped threads useful for finding productive questions to include in a discussion. If we want so much to argue, why not hold off until after the on-air discussion has taken place? Or perhaps an older thread could be dredged up to serve as a place for online interactive debates.

  39. 39 Count Iblis
    June 30, 2008 at 23:29

    Bryan, first of all, Hezbollah has never committed a terrorist attack. And Iran may be implicated in the terror attacks in Argentina, but is there a shred of evidence for that?

    We live in a world where it is ok. for Western countries to support groups like the Contras in Nicaragua who clearly did commit acts of terror, support the Mujahedeen in Afghanistan who did skin captured Soviet soldiers alive, support Mobuto in Zaire who did dissolve political opponents alive in acid, support Pinochet who did throw political opponents out of aircraft over the ocean etc. etc. etc.

    Then if Israel occupies Lebanon and a group that would later become part of Hezbollah blows up a US marine barracks that is suddenly an act of terror? A bombing in Argentina and then Hezbollah get’s blamed? Hezbollah uses suicide atacks against Israeli sodiers in Lebanon and that is called terrorism by the US?

    I agree that firing missiles at Israeli cities is a war crime. And so is using cluster bombs in civilian areas. But to point the finger at Iran for supporting Hezbollah is just ridiculous.

    And if Iran wee so bent on killing Jews, why wouldn’t they focus on the Jews who live in Iran? Iran is home to the largest population of Jews in the Mid East outside of Israel. Why would Iran bomb some target in Argentina? It simply doesn’t make any sense.

  40. 40 nelsoni
    June 30, 2008 at 23:41

    @ shirley * a standing ovation* you have spoken well. karnie asked for questions we would like to ask during the debate not start arguing now. We can throw nuclear bombs @ each on the blog. But after the debate on air. Once again Shirley, * standing ovation*

  41. 41 steve
    July 1, 2008 at 00:03

    @ Iblis

    “Why would Iran bomb some target in Argentina? It simply doesn’t make any sense.”

    So are you suggesting that by some giant coincidence there are natives in Argentina that targetted Israeli and Jewish targets in Argentina, which happens to have a large Jewish population? Just a giant coincidence? The consensus in the west is that Hezbollah, which is Iranian funded, attacked those targets in Argentina. Hezbollah also destroyed the US Marine Barracks in Beirut, and the French barracks there as well. Those troops were there as peacekeepers, not occupiers. It’s also believed Hezbollah has sleepers in Canada and is going to target jews there as well.

  42. 42 selena
    July 1, 2008 at 00:20

    It is all a game… and all THEY (they live up by the lodge ;-)) want is for us to sit here and argue about it.

    While the cat is occupied the mice will play!

    http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/06/29/us.iran/

  43. 43 Count Iblis
    July 1, 2008 at 00:21

    Steve, there may a a consensus in the West about it, but without any shred of evidence, I don’t think this is a credible claim.

    Thing is that terrorists from the Mid East, perhaps even Hezbollah members may well have been responsible. But this is not evidence that it was a Hezbollah operation. Siilarly, the fact that some US soldiers have misbehaved in Iraq is not proof for the assertion that the US military is guilty of war crimes.

    So, I see a double standard in the way we deal with organizations/people we don’t like. Another example. We knew that there were death squads operating in Bosnia and Kosovo when Milosevic was in power. That was presented as evidence against Milosevic during his trial, despite the fact that the prosecution did not show that these death squads operated under his command.

    In Iraq there were also Shia death squads who were believed to have ties to the Iraqi interior ministery. But no high officials were investigated for this. Two people were tried and acquitted in Iraq.

    I’m simply in favor of using the same standard we use for ourselves to everyone. In case of the topic of ths thread, the Iranian nuclear program, that means that we should allow Iran to enrich uranium, because we would never accept not being allowed to do that ourselves by some foreign power. 🙂

  44. 44 nelsoni
    July 1, 2008 at 00:28

    WHYS team: my question for the debate, If israel did not have nuclear weapons and they wanted to pursue a nuclear weapons program, would the international community have prevented them?

  45. 45 Roberto
    July 1, 2008 at 00:31

    One Zionist here asserted that, if necessary, Israel would use its nuclear capability to destroy the World. In Israel, this is referred to as the “Sampson Option”. Would one speak of “irrationality”?
    —————————————————————————————————

    ——- Have no idea who you talk of, but perhaps you’re confusing The World with immediate Holy Lands which most assuredly would include Mecca and Medina.

    Israel’s arsenal very small but enough to handle the immediate threat if it ever comes to that.

    Interesting that the usual suspects condemn Israel for having nuclear weapons when they have never threatened anyone with them and refuse to talk of them. Yet excuse the Islamic Republic of Pakistan for threatening India with nukes a couple years back in a nuclear standoff after a typical flare up in Kashmir.

    Israel knows Iran will eventually have some sort of nuclear capability. Current situation is to delay that in hopes that some peaceful agreements can be agreed upon in advance. Iran is considered a threat to Iraq, Israel, and Saudi Arabia and any majority Sunni country. I doubt Turkey is keen on Iran having nukes either, so it ain’t just Israel.

    I would also remind Count Ibis that when Iran talks about wiping Israel off the map, this is no misreporting by the western media like you claim. The frenquency and consistency of this talk is clear, and one need to look no further than the support by Iran of Hamas, Libya, and Hezbollah.

    Facts are that Israel exists because it’s people are willing to strap on the boots and the guns and go do the hard work of defending their miniscule slice of this vast territory, not because they have some too few nukes.

    The fall of Saddam has demonstrated to the world the brutal realities of these lands where it would appear only bloody strong armed power of a Saddam can contain the simmering anarchy and growing death culture of Islamic suicidist culture.

    This Islamic reformation and civil war will be a century or more to resolve. No need to throw more nukes into the mix if possible.

  46. 46 Count Iblis
    July 1, 2008 at 00:54

    Roberto, given the tensions between Iran and Israel/the West, you hear a lot of rhetoric. As Shirly pointed out (on the Juli 1 talking point thread), it doesn’t make any sense for Iran to attack Israel with nuclear weapons as that would destroy Palestine as well.

    The official Iranian position is that they don’t want to attack Israel. But Israel’s position and the US position is that they don’t rule out a military strike against Iran.

    Yes, we can quote some Mullah in Iran who has a different view, but then there are plenty of US pastors who say that the US should bomb Chavez in Venezuela, that the US itself was behing 9/11 etc. etc.

    You can write down any arbitrary crazy statement and I can find you some Mullah or pastor who has said it. 🙂

  47. 47 Justin from Iowa
    July 1, 2008 at 00:59

    Shirley, I’m sorry this upsets you that not many questions have been posed, but the whole basis for the thread was irrational in the first place, as it assumes you can HAVE a rational debate with irrational people. Just as you cannot discuss points with christian extremists, you can’t hold a discussion with Islamic extremists.

    Why?

    Because their attitude is “Join us or Die”

    There is no middle ground, and often the “Join us” is left off leaving only the “Die!”

    These people believe in their hate, linked with their religion, so passionately it is, well, holy. What do facts matter to them? What do they care to discuss?

    People need to take a step back, take off their blinders, and realize something. This hatred is NEVER going to go away. There is NEVER going to be peace in the middle east.

    The best thing that could happen, is that Israel was ceded to the Islamists and Israelis repatriated somewhere else, and the middle east was then isolated to let all the fanatics kill each other off over pointless squabbles.

    At least then, when they finally get a nuke and set it off, they’ll be killing their fellow faithful instead of innocent civilian bystanders in other free countries.

    Brutal? Yes. Realistic? Yes.

    Peace in the middle east is a fairy tale which will never happen.

  48. 48 Justin from Iowa
    July 1, 2008 at 01:00

    Heck, not to be discriminatory, you can’t hold a rational discussion with jewish extremists either. And Israel is infected with the same disease of irrationality as the rest of the middle east, don’t think that it isn’t.

  49. 49 nelsoni
    July 1, 2008 at 01:07

    I’m a student of international relations and diplomacy. I want to state a fact. The international system is full of double standards, people talking from both sides of their mouth. In any given situation, the rules differ for every party involved, it just depends on which member of the security council with veto power is behind you. Israel has the right to nuclear technology, Iran cannot. See what i mean?

  50. 50 Tino
    July 1, 2008 at 01:13

    ““Rationality” is a subjective fact, based on the perspective of the person making the judgement.”

    No way. Rationality is an objective term meaning they behave rationally:

    “# Having or exercising the ability to reason.
    # Of sound mind; sane.
    # Consistent with or based on reason; logical: rational behavior. See synonyms at logical.”

    Iran does not. They have already declared multiple times their desire to wipe Israel off the map, for no logical reasons. They are a theocracy – in itself entirely irrational. The US is a secular government which uses reason to decide its actions. When have we behaved irrationally, exactly, since you tried to draw a ridiculous parallel.

    “Education and an oportunity for prosperty I think would be a far greater wepon against islamic exterimists. ”

    How is this STILL thought of as correct. I have posted no less than three studies showing that the vast majority of terrorists are: roughly middle class and many are college-level educated. Can you please provide something other than your own wishful thinking disproving my assertion?

    “Yes, I absolutely agree that poverty is the perfect breeding ground for jihad.”

    See above, please – PLEASE.

    Click to access terrorism2.pdf


    http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=487467
    http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/templateC05.php?CID=2401

    Even Pape, who does not attribute terrorism to Islamic reasoning, agrees it has N-O-T-H-I-N-G to do with economics or education. Stop perpetuating this myth.

    “steve that makes 80% of america lunatics as well, since that is the number of people believing god exists and that there is a talking snake and paradise and women are made out of mens ribs and”

    While I agree they are believing in something unable to be proven – our COUNTRY does not operate as such, but Iran does. Also, there is a world of difference between believing in something and believing you need to sacrifice yourself while killing infidels to get it.

    “In case of the topic of ths thread, the Iranian nuclear program, that means that we should allow Iran to enrich uranium, because we would never accept not being allowed to do that ourselves by some foreign power.”

    No, because they do not follow the same rules. Any state sponsoring terrorism, declaring that another MUST be wiped off the map for zero reason, etc, should be prevented from ever touching a nuclear weapon. Iran does not allow inspections of its military nuclear program – which is a huge problem.

    “If israel did not have nuclear weapons and they wanted to pursue a nuclear weapons program, would the international community have prevented them?”

    They would have argued against it. Just like they did with India and Pakistan. The difference, of course, is that Israel is rational and would not launch a nuke first as it assures destruction. A country with leaders who would not mind being martyrs kind of changes the game plan.

  51. 51 Count Iblis
    July 1, 2008 at 01:22

    What do they care to discuss?

    Their right to put their own uranium in their own centrifuges to make fuel for their own nuclear powerplant, the whole process being under IAEA inspections to make sure no enriched uranium is diverted.

    If the West wants to have more safeguards then the discussion can be about a more stringent inspections regime that Iran is prepared to negotiate with the West.

    But the position of the West is that under no circumstances can Iran be allowed to enrich uranium.

    Now, I’m 100% sure that if some country, say, France, talked to this tone to the US, all hell would break lose. What if France were to say that the US must reduce CO2 emissions because that’s a threat to the planet? That statement alone would damage diplomatic relations between France and the US, let alone any talk about sanctions or any military threat (the French bombing US coal fired pwerplants 🙂 )

    Yet, when we make such threats to Iran, we call that “diplomacy”. The fact that Iran does not shut the door to any diplomatic resolution by leaving the NPT is amazing to me, but we don’t take any note of that. All that we are noting is that Iran isn’t suspending the enrichment of uranium.

  52. 52 Justin from Iowa
    July 1, 2008 at 04:07

    On the other hand, the US isn’t sponsoring terrorists who would just LOVE to get their hands on a nuke and set it off in some folks city. Ain’t nothin black and white in this world. Gotta watch what you are comparin to what.

  53. 53 viola
    July 1, 2008 at 09:06

    I want to know why leaders of countries that take pride in the politeness of their culture think it is acceptable to utter threats of annihilation against another nation. Isn’t that the height of rudeness? And they do it publicly, in speeches and on television. Talk about rude!

  54. 54 Mark Sandell
    July 1, 2008 at 10:20

    Right, thanks for some questions (there are a few like Nelsoni’s buried in there)and for keeping the debate going pretty straight despite some attempts to divert it.
    Shirley , we want WHYS to be a 24 hour debate but questions asked AFTER the show will not be answered by the guests.We want you to inform the debate.
    and Justin :
    “but the whole basis for the thread was irrational in the first place, as it assumes you can HAVE a rational debate with irrational people” – are you condemning our guests before you even know who they are ?

  55. 55 Mohammed Ali
    July 1, 2008 at 10:40

    @Steve,
    I know to the core you are in favour of anything Israel does whether right or wrong. But should we advocate a nuclear free society, a society were no one will be afraid of the other, a society were everybody will be treated equally and not on the basis of partially.
    I 100% agree to the argument that Iran should not own nuclear weapons, but should Israel also be allowed to keep possession of the nuclear weapons she has? I say no to this. In fact I beleive that no country on earth should this sort of weapons because in terms of real war the most “Responsible” countries can become the most reckless by dropping atomic bombs on Hiroshema and Nagasaki. This is just to say when it comes to nuclear weapons, all of the countries that have it are not responsible to the extent that they will not get tempted to use it.

  56. 56 Bryan
    July 1, 2008 at 11:21

    Count Iblis’ exercises in moral equivalence between terror and those who defend against terror are meaningless. Google Imad Mughniyeh, or whatever his name was, to uncover the terror axis of hezbollah and Iran.

    The terrorist Hezbollah most wants freed is Samir Kuntar. He will be given a hero’s welcome in Lebanon for the brutal murder of an Israeli father and his four-year-old daughter and two policemen.

    The Argentinian judiciary has uncovered the Iranian link to the terrorist murders of Jews in the community centre and the embassy.

    But why bother with facts when there is false moral equivalence to be drawn?

    Why try to blind people to the very real threat posed by Iran?

  57. 57 steve
    July 1, 2008 at 11:22

    @ MOhammed Ali

    “In fact I beleive that no country on earth should this sort of weapons because in terms of real war the most “Responsible” countries can become the most reckless by dropping atomic bombs on Hiroshema and Nagasaki. This is just to say when it comes to nuclear weapons, all of the countries that have it are not responsible to the extent that they will not get tempted to use it.”

    Ugh, do I wish no country had nuclear weapons? Yes. However the Genie is out of the bottle. If Israel had peace with ALL of it’s neighbors, it would have no need for nuclear weapons. However it’s a tiny country, surrounded by 200,000,000 people that hates it, and the nuclear weapons deterrs their more rational enemies and former enemies. I have a feeling the nuclear weapons were part of the reason why Egypt and jordan made peace treaties with Israel. To say that the US isn’t responsible because it nuked Japan is silly. THe world was in the most catastrophic war in the history of the world. Japan attacked the US, and the Japanese were an irrational enemy, prefering death rather than surrendering. Do you know what happened on Okinawa? Civilians would jump off cliffs at the prospect of being taken over by the US. Japanese would send barely trained pilots to crash into American ships. They said they would never surrender. You act like any other bombing, conventional ones,which killed more people than the nuclear attacks were fine, but so long as only two bombs, which ended the war, and saved millions of lives, both Japanese and American, from the cancelling of an invasion of the japanese mainland, was reckless? Are you saying you would rather have had millions of more people die? It sucks that Nagasaki and Hiroshima got nuked, but it ended the war. That’s hardly reckless. I would hope you woudl say the japanese slaughter in China was reckless too. Do you realize that Japan is still hated in mainland Asia today for what they did there? The war was ended. I cannot beleive someone would say that saving many millions of lives lives, though at a cost of many lives, is reckless. If you knew anything about Japanese culture, surrender is shameful, and they at the time would rather die than surrender. The only reason why tehy surrendered was that the Emperor saw that the country would basically cease to exist, and the Japanese managed to even get a conditional surrender, where Hirohito would remain the emperor. The people respected him so much that they respected his wish to lay down their arms. The whole nuking of Japan would never have happened if Japan didn’t attack Asia and the US.

  58. 58 Mohammed Ali
    July 1, 2008 at 11:52

    @Steve,
    “Ugh, do I wish no country had nuclear weapons? Yes. However the Genie is out of the bottle. If Israel had peace with ALL of it’s neighbors, it would have no need for nuclear weapons. However it’s a tiny country, surrounded by 200,000,000 people that hates it, and the nuclear weapons deterrs their more rational enemies and former enemies. I have a feeling the nuclear weapons were part of the reason why Egypt and jordan made peace treaties with Israel”.

    If you agree that no country should possess nuclear weapons then your argument should be that Israel others who have this weapons should be disarmed. But the fact that you are arguing the contrary brings out the inherent contrcdiction in your argument.To also argue that Israel is sorrounded by 200,000,000 people who hate it and therefore should have a nuclear weapons to deter them from attacking it distorts your argument that you don’t wish any nation has nuclear weapons. That statement in addition corroborate the fact that those with nuclear weapons can become reckless and end up using them as using them is the actual deterrence.
    Was the US reckless in using nuclear bombs on Japan? Yes it was. We all know that surroundering was not a part of Japanese culture and so they go on fighting. But it is also not a part of American culture so they always fight to die. In that case if a country has sa nuclear capability, should they use it on the US, I say no. Killing almost a million people and permanantly incapacitating more than a million in the name of ending war is unacceptable in a civilize world. Thousands of wars haven been fought before WW-II and none war ended by dropping nuclear bombs on any of the aggressors.
    I think civility is what we should be preaching here and not pushing one country getting nuclear weapons to destroy the others.

  59. 59 steve
    July 1, 2008 at 12:04

    @ Mohammed

    Let me ask you something, if there were ONE nation, you could only pick one nation on earth that has nuclear weapons that you would like to be diasrmed of them, which nation would that be?

  60. 60 Mohammed Ali
    July 1, 2008 at 12:19

    @Steve,
    I wouldn’t one only a single country to be disarmed. I want all country possessing nuclear weapons to be disarmed. It will be biased for noe country to be disarmed while others remain armed. Who would you like to disarm first Steve?

  61. 61 steve
    July 1, 2008 at 12:25

    @ Mohammed Ali

    I asked you first. If you had to pick one nation that is currently armed with nukes, who would you pick? After you answer, then I will answer.

  62. 62 Mohammed Ali
    July 1, 2008 at 12:47

    @Steve,
    I would first disarm Pakistan.

  63. 63 steve
    July 1, 2008 at 12:59

    @ Mohammed

    I would first disarm North Korea.

  64. July 1, 2008 at 13:02

    Former president of the United States,
    Mr. Jimmy carter,while visiting the Middle east,
    disclosed that,
    Israel have in its stockpile 150,atomic bombs.

    On the other hand,
    Iranian leader ship says,
    they are not manufacturing such weapons,
    on which IAEA has its reservations.

    According to them,
    uranium enrichment is only for generating of electricity.

    But The United States,
    and its allies are not ready to believe in,
    but the majority of the nations are disagree with the American,s stance.

    Tomice technology is our right
    and we can not give iot up.
    We are not not making Mass destruction weapons
    as alleged by the united states,
    it is the (Iranian stance)

    On the indication of war loving power,
    Israel has begun clandestine opration,
    air excersize is going on now a days,
    that is the sign of new combat between countries.

    Keeping in minde the expected situation,
    Director of IAEA informed the parties
    if you have once gain made a mistake,
    as have done in regard to the iraq issue,
    Middle East may become a fire ball.

    But they are insisting,
    perhaps they hate peacde and
    no one dependable in their eyes.

    God is watching everything and
    we are all accountable to Him.

  65. 65 Mohammed Ali
    July 1, 2008 at 13:04

    @Steve,
    North Korea is already undergoing disarmament. So what will be the next option?

  66. 66 steve
    July 1, 2008 at 13:12

    @ Mohammed

    I would have to say whatever nation NK sold nuclear weapons too. Their entire point of that program was to blackmail the west. I wouldn’t be shocked if they sold some weapons, like they tried to help Syria build a something that Israel destroyed, and ironically Syria and NK didn’t seem to complain becuase they got caught red handed.

  67. 67 Justin from Iowa
    July 1, 2008 at 13:27

    @ Mark Sandell

    Yes, If they are TRULY representative of the people they are representing, I am condemning them as irrational and the debate pointless to hold.

    And Yes, if they are rational, then I am condemning the debate because those debating will have no influence on the irrational people they are “representing”

    Its kind of a damned if you do, damned if you don’t situation.

  68. 68 Roberto
    July 1, 2008 at 14:05

    Roberto, given the tensions between Iran and Israel/the West, you hear a lot of rhetoric. As Shirly pointed out (on the Juli 1 talking point thread), it doesn’t make any sense for Iran to attack Israel with nuclear weapons as that would destroy Palestine as well.
    ——————————————————————————————–

    ** Let’s not kid ourselfs Count, 90% of politics is rhetoric and posturing.

    Indeed, this bleeds over in diplomacy, foreign relations and general personal relations in public. People judge on the level of friendship or threat that they see, ie, friend or foe.

    Any of these Islamic countries could easily reduce the threat level by recognizing Israel as they do Pakistan and Jordan, both established in a similar vein to Israel in the same time.

    They won’t do it. It’s much easier to bluster about wiping Israel off the map and recognize the dozen or so vastly majority Islamic states than recognize the tiny and sole Jewish majority state that exists and engage in mutually beneficial diplomatic relations.

    Like I stated, don’t kid yourself Count. These Islamic countries could care less about Palestinians other than to use them as cannon fodder in their proxy battle against Israel. This can be seen in the treatment of Palestinian refugees in their countries where they are consigned forever it appears to squalid refugee camps.

    Interesting observation about the numbers of Jews, and I might add Christians in Iran. The Persian lands have always had a reputation for high standards of civilization and Islamic conquerors absorbed as much of that culture as they ruled over it. Thus, the relations of the Christians and Jews to Islamic rulers was relatively peaceful and there was much less need to flee for the US or Israel post 1948 as happened in other Islamic countries.

    All this changed with the Iranian revolution. It remains to be seen how that plays out in the end, but things currently pretty dicey both in Iran and in the relations of surrounding countries as Iran blusters and makes hostile moves.

    I greatly regret US actions have also mangled the relations in these areas, but that doesn’t mean Iran gets a green light to wipe it’s neighbors off the map with a nuke.

    Israel doesn’t need a nuke to wipe Palestinians off the map. They could selectively incinerate the place in a blink with conventional surgical bombings and military blitz and burn operation, but it brings them no closer to their goal of a peaceful Israel. The current counter insurgency of slow attrition remains in place until the next Jordan or Egypt steps up to the plate and is willing to establish relations.

    Balls been in your court for decades now Count.

  69. July 1, 2008 at 14:50

    Hi Ros, welcome back
    Akbar here in Tehran

    The situation in Iran is deteriorating fast. The Saturday meeting of the opposition in Paris – Mojahedin-e-Khalq Organization – unnerved the Tehran regime.
    The nuclear issue is reaching a climax. Tehran used it as a smoke-screen and bargaining chip with US and Europe in the past, but things have got out of hand. Tehran has the jitters.
    The 23rd June Sanctions of the 5+1 contains an ‘intervention’ clause. Could there be a government in absentia? Will past crimes be prosecuted at the Hague!
    Worse still, Iran is cash-strapped. Sanctions have hit hard. The Oil Revenue Surplus Fund which stood at $ 37.5 billion six months ago, is almost depleted. The welfare state can no longer function. Subsidies on gasoline and foodstuffs have disappeared. Industry is at a standstill.
    Britain has advised leniency and caution on Iran, but who can tell what the French presidency of EU will bring!

  70. 70 Count Iblis
    July 1, 2008 at 15:52

    To Brian, Steve, Justin and others who make the claim that Iran is so extremely dangerous:

    Ted Galen Carpenter has debunked all of your arguments in this article entiteld: Dubious Assumptions about Iran

    Basically this is what Shirly said in her posting.

    About the bombings in Argentina: When Argentina requested the extradition of a suspect, the Home Office said: not enough prima facie evidence for the extradition of Hade Soleimanpour to proceed at this stage

    So, you have to wonder what the case against Iran is based on. It was only after this incident, that Hezbollah was put on a list of terrorist organization and collecting funds for Hezbollah was banned in the US.

    It may well be the case that this incident was used by the US and Israel to weaken Hezbollah by cutting off funds. At that time Israel was occupying the security strip in Lebanon and was under constant attack by Hezbollah.

    The same kind of “reverse logic” is the driving force in the dispute about Iran’s nuclear program. If you analyze the problem based on the facts, then there isn’t that much of a problem left.

    All the arguments that lead to the conclusion that it is a big threat always assume a priori that Iran is ruled by Bin Laden like people.

  71. 71 steve
    July 1, 2008 at 15:54

    Count iblis, you’ve never hidden your dislike of Israel before, so why don’t you just come out and admit you want Israel destroyed?

  72. 72 steve
    July 1, 2008 at 15:56

    Oh Iblis, here’s a nice picture for you people who deny the translations:

  73. 73 Patou
    July 1, 2008 at 15:56

    @Admiral Ackbar and Steve,

    Responding to violence with violence does not offer security. Nuclear Weapons must be banned everywhere in the World, including the US and Israel. If not, every other country which could obtain one, should be left alone.

    I agree with Coleen that from a Game Theoretical standpoint, Iran should have a nuclear weapon. However, the world does not need game theory, it needs diplomacy, justice and equal right.

    Is it plausible that the muslim extremists of the World look at the West as an imperialistic block which needs salvage capitalism based on the exploitation of poorer people to achieve industrialization and prosperity? In other words, do they see us as parasites? Many arguments could be made pointing to our eternal dependency on others.

    If it is remotely possible, then these extremists who are not necessarily irrational, would use the numerous economic exploitations of the past (including slavery, sponsoring of dictatorships by the West, Western-sponsored coup d’etats, etc…) to realize that they need a deterrent (such as a nuclear weapon), suicide bombings etc… to gain some respect.

    Remember, what is irrational in the West (suicides etc…), is not in many parts of the World. Let me tell you that there are many.

    If we adopt the theory that promotes “the stick first, diplomacy and free trade later”, we will not succeed in making friends. I personally believe that nuclear weapons should be banned everywhere including in the US and Israel. If we lived in such a world, I would not see a single person in the world who would not join any army whose goal is to ensure Iran does not reach its nuclear objectives.

  74. 74 Shirley
    July 1, 2008 at 15:58

    To our Iranian guests: assalamu `alaykum jami`an wa rahmatullah. Do Iranian commenators think that Pres. Ahmedinijad would launch a nuclear attack on Iran? Do the Iranian people think he might? What role has religion had in the debate about nuclear weapons and nuclear energy in Iran?

    To our Israeli guests: Peace. Is there any hope that Israel might disarm its nuclear weapons at any time in the future? What is the nature of the anti-nuclear movement in Israel; and what kinds of actions have they done recently?

    @ WHYS admins: Please do not do this on a Friday. If this discussion is to share the hour with another different discussion, please make it clear which of the two will be first. I am still very, very upset about having missed the Gaza discussion.

  75. 75 Mohammed Ali
    July 1, 2008 at 16:06

    @Steve,
    You have made clear in almost all of your postings that you don’t like Iran. So if Count Iblis doesn’t like Israel, it no crime. After it is not a crime not to like Israel. Israel is no special country that someone must be force to like. Even God, if he exists, there are people who don’t like him. What’s the point in arguing for to keep nuclear weapons and others be disarmed? I think country should be disarmed.

    Back to our discussion, the next country I would like to see disarm is the USA for two reasons:
    1. If we want a world free of nuclear weapons, then the leader must set an example by disarming first.
    2. The US is the only country in the world that have actually used a nuclear weapon.

    Who would you like to see disarm next.

  76. July 1, 2008 at 16:20

    Hi Shirley
    Akbar here in Tehran
    You obviously mean ‘Would President Ahmadinejad launch a nuclear attack on Israel.’
    I don’t really think he has the final say. He has troubles of his own. Nine months remain of his presidency. Mounting opposition to his rash statements and rough methods have weakened his chance of re-election.
    The prelates in Iran are losing support. The bazaar has been their traditional strength and support, but with dwindling hard currency revenues, Iran must reduce imports. So many people going bankrupt, a lot of bounced cheques floating about, loss of confidence in the market, it is hard to predict what lies ahead.
    The legacy of Israel and our forefathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob belong to all mankind. We should relish and safeguard it against all harm.
    God bless.

  77. 77 Count Iblis
    July 1, 2008 at 17:01

    Steve:

    Count iblis, you’ve never hidden your dislike of Israel before, so why don’t you just come out and admit you want Israel destroyed

    As Mohammed Ali posted above, that’s irrelevant to this discussion. And it isn’t in fact true at all, which just shows how far you get with your type of logic: Nowhere. So, is it wise to apply this type of reasoning to foreign policy, possible leading to a war? 🙂

    Anyway, let me explain why the current position taken by the West against Iran’s nuclear program is not in the best interest of Israel or the West on the long term.

    What we are asking Iran to do is to suspend their enrichment program. Iran has already told us that they want to enrich uranium under the usual IAEA inspections regime and are wiling to address the concerns of the West by negotiations, presumably about more inspections etc. But they are not willing to give up their right to enrich uranium.

    This means that even if we could somehow coerce Iran into giving up their enrichment program, that move by Iran would be made against their will. Then, we would still be suspicious about whether they are enriching uranium in some unknown hidden facility.

    You would need very intrusive inspection in Iran to be able to rule that out. If we can’t live with an Iranian facility under IAEA inspections and yet to negotiate inspections on top of that now, then we won’t be able to live with an Iran who unwillingly has accepted some incentives package and has stopped enriching uranium at Natanz.

    So, sooner or later, perhaps after some Iranian dissident makes some vague statements about suspicious activities at some remote place in Iran, we will be back at square one. We will then want to negotiate or simply demand access to that place. But we would have to start new negotiatons on that isue which may well go nowhere.

    So, it is far better to find a settlement now in which Iran’s rights are recognized. By allowing Iran to enrich uranium, we can negotiate a far more stringent inspections regime in return. We could negotiate access to other as of yet unkown sites that may come up later, like in the scenario I mentioned above.

    That will put the matter to rest, we simply have to accept the fact that if Iran decides to withdraw from the agreements it has made, kick out the inspectors and make highly enriched uranium etc., they could indeed make a nuclear weapon. But that will then be a very visible move. Iran won’t be able to covertly make nuclear weapons.

    So, in summary, I would say that the West is blinded by fear and as a result is making decisions that are not in its best interest. The current best case scenario for the West and Israel (Iran agrees to suspend enrichment) isn’t as good as it looks.

  78. 78 steve
    July 1, 2008 at 17:06

    Count Iblis:

    Does Israel have the right to exist? If not, what do you propose should happen to it?

    Because I think you don’t think Israel should even exist, of course you want Iran to have nuclear weapons and Israel to be disarmed, so it’s easier to destroy Israel. Why not just admit it?

  79. 79 Count Iblis
    July 1, 2008 at 17:30

    Steve, not at all! My positions on Israel is quite the opposite. Israel has the right to exist. Israel can keep its nuclear weapons. In fact, I would suggest that Israel should be less ambiguous about its nuclear arsenal. I don’t mind Israel testing its nuclear weapons to send a clear signal to the rest of the world.

    In the current setting there can be no doubt that Iran will never attack Israel. Iran won’t even waste efforts to make nuclear weapons. Besides that, an inspections regime will make sure that Iran doesn’t do that even if we have some doubts about their intentions.

    The balance of power of Iran relative to Israel is like this. If Iran launches a missile at Israel, the Israelis can destroy that missile. The Iranians can detect missiles fired from Iran and launch a counter attack while the Iranian missiles are still on their way. And in the very very unlikely event that Iran has somehow wiped Israel off the map, Israeli submarines can launch a nuclear attack against Iran.

    So, I really think that the fear of the Iranian nuclear program at this stage when there isn’t an active Iranians weapons program, when the Iranians want to stay in the NPT, when they want to negotiate about additional inspections to address our fears, is ridiculous.

  80. 80 Mohammed Ali
    July 1, 2008 at 17:38

    @Steve,
    I think issues should be argued in the right perspective and objectively if we are truly advocating a nuclear free world. From inference, you are suggesting that only Israel should possess nuclear weapons in the middle because it is the only country that is threatened. This is your myopic argument. What you should understand is that just Israel views others as being threat to her, so too others view Israel as being threat to them. The fact that everyone is suspecious of everyone, no one therefore should have the right to own nuclear weapons.

    The question as to whether Count Iblis thinks that Israel should exist or not is far from the discussion and is a mean of evading the issue when one is not able to respond to facts because of the high degree of biasnees presented in the debate.

    The question is does anyone have the right to possess nuclear weapons and others don’t have that same rights?
    If I were asked this question, my answer will be “No single country has the right to possess a nuclear weapons including the USA, Russia, China, Great Britain, France, India, Pakistan, Israel and those aspiring to get one”.

  81. 81 Tino
    July 1, 2008 at 18:01

    “an inspections regime will make sure that Iran doesn’t do that even if we have some doubts about their intentions.”

    They do not allow inspection of military nuclear programs, which means we would not be able to put to rest any doubts.

  82. July 1, 2008 at 18:03

    Those of you who are arguing for a “nuclear free world”, please rationally attempt to answer this question: What will protect the sovereignty of such nations say, as Russia, against agressors with overwhelming manpower such as China?

    The context for such a question lies in the fact that one of China’s strategic goals for war with Russia is its mineral-rich region of Siberia. What will stop China for dashing for this region with millions of men just as did in the microcosm scenario of the Korean War? No army can stand up to China’s military might except a nation which is separated from it by a large body of water.

    Those of you about to answer “international pressure” or “the UN” please don’t even bother!

    Note: Nerve gasses could also be used, but they cannot be effectively implemented to kill millions of people in an invasion context.

  83. 83 Mohammed Ali
    July 1, 2008 at 18:19

    @John,
    If nuclear weapons is deterrence from one country attacking another, then all countries should have the right to have it in order to deter aggressors. That will do from my end for today.

  84. 84 Justin from Iowa
    July 1, 2008 at 18:22

    Crichton:

    The day of the mass charge is over. Nuclear weapons are just one aspect of modern weapons arsenals. Have you ever heard of a Fuel Air Explosive? Needless to say, there are enough weapons of mass carnage available to a modern military that nuclear weapons aren’t a requirement.

  85. July 1, 2008 at 18:39

    @ Justin

    Yes, as a former service member I have heard of fuel air bombs. However the only weapon truly capable of deterring a massed attack by several army corps is the nuclear weapon.

    Elimination of these would open the world to aggression unparralled even in WW2.

  86. 86 John LaGrua/New York
    July 1, 2008 at 21:36

    When Isreal introdced nuclear weapons to the Mid-East it raised the stakes enormously.Shimon Peres had sworn to JFK that Isreal would not be the first to do so,but at the same time development work was going on .Front companies set up in the US succeeded thru ruse to steal enriched uranium from the UIS to feed the Isreali program.The Iranian program is a direct response to this provocation. The recent Isreali exercise may be routed inthe domestic problems of Olmert and also the waning days of the Bush era..One cannot tell what stupidity Bush could display but he may well have given encouragement ot the Isreal to be agressive since he will not be faced with the consequences.Isreal has used its nuclear weaponry to allow it to carry out its long planned annexation of all of Palestine. while holding the Arabs at bay . Once that advantage is lost the game changes and the choice is apocalyptic war or negotiation .War by miscalculation is real and would ignite the entire Mid East with potential for global horror. This not the time for diplays of bravado ,but one for careful diplomacy.

  87. 87 Emile Barre
    July 1, 2008 at 23:17

    Oh that Texan.

  88. 88 Bryan
    July 2, 2008 at 08:08

    “What you should understand is that just Israel views others as being threat to her, so too others view Israel as being threat to them.”

    Mohammed Ali July 1, 2008 at 5:38 pm

    This is the old moral equivalence argument that Count Iblis and others try to use to justify their peculiar view that Israel is equally to blame for the conflict with the Muslim world. Then we have John LaGrua above trying to tell us with a straight face that, “The Iranian program is a direct response to this provocation,” i.e. Israel’s nuclear development of decades back. And we have Shirley wanting to know if there is a disarmament movement in Israel.

    Sorry guys, your arguments will remain unconvincing as long as you ignore the basic facts of Arab and Iranian hatred of Israel and the attempts on the part of the Arabs to destroy the Jewish state since the day of its inception. Iran has enthusiastically joined in this programme since the “religious” madmen took over there. Again, it arms trains and funds Islamic Jihad and Hezbollah terrorists for the murder of Jewish civilians and the weakening of Israel. Anyone remember the Karine A, as one example? That was the ship bristling with Iranian arms and bound for Gaza. After Israel’s withdrawal from Lebanon, Iranian officials were seen arrogantly striding along the border and gazing with binoculars into Israel, the country they obsessively want to destroy via Hezbollah and other terrorists simply because it is a majority Jewish country and regarded as a foreign entity on “Muslim” land. Wake up people. That’s what the game is, and nothing else.

    Israel withdrew from the Sinai and was rewarded with a very cold “peace” with Egypt. It withdrew from Lebanon and was rewarded with Iranian/Hezbollah attacks. It withdrew from Gaza and was rewarded with immediate resumption of Kassam rocket fire. And Israel is the aggressor here? What “threat” does Israel represent to its neighbours and to Iran? (Other than showing by example what a democratic country can achieve in a region dominated by tyrants.)

    Iran is not simply “threatening” to attack Israel. It is actively trying to bring Israel down. So we really need to stop debating the “threat” while ignoring the actual attacks. Here’s a question for the panel: What compromises, if any, from the Israeli side would make Iran stop its attacks on Israel through Hezbollah and other groups like Islamic Jihad?

  89. 89 Mohammed Ali
    July 2, 2008 at 11:34

    @Bryan,
    You worte a fine posting but absoultely biased. You talked about Israel being attacked by Hezbollah and other Islamic groups. You did not mentioned thousands of innocent women and children being killed on a daily basis by Israeli bombers, buldozers, missles, etc. You did not mentioned the encroachment of Israelis on Palestinian territories by building settlements. All you know is Khassam rockets fired from Palestinian area, attacks by Hezbollah. What a one sided way of looking at things.

    The fact that Israelis take lands that are not within their borders in itself constitutes threat to other nations.

  90. July 2, 2008 at 14:17

    “You did not mentioned thousands of innocent women and children being killed on a daily basis by Israeli bombers, buldozers, missles, etc. You did not mentioned the encroachment of Israelis on Palestinian territories by building settlements.”

    Can you please provide any evidence of these thousands of Palestinian women and children being killed by Israelis on a daily basis.

    As for encroachment on Palestinian territories, the Israelis have been in those lands for 5,000 years, and still possess a tiny piece of land compared to the rest of Middle East. Sounds to me like the ones encroaching are the Palestinians themselves who refuse to live in peace:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7485022.stm

  91. 91 Cheburet
    July 2, 2008 at 14:26

    All nations have a right to exist – be it Iran, Israel or any other country for that matter. Any country that threatens the existence of the other ought to be condemned by all nations of the world. Peaceful co-existence – despite compteting interest – should define the interaction and relationship between countries. Though this is the ideal picture, it is important that we all work towards this. Yet, conflict is here to stay, because of different interest. That means that countries should more of common interest and creative and effective ways of conflict resolution.
    As far as nuclear weapons are concerned, no country should posses such weapons let alone the war hungry Iran and Israel. it’s like these guys anxiously wait for opportunities to wage war against each other or against their neighbours in the name of self-preservation. The United Nations should take decisive actions to stop the threat posed to world peace by proliferation of nuclear weapons. Empty words won’t help.

  92. July 2, 2008 at 14:29

    @ Mohammad Ali

    “You did not mentioned thousands of innocent women and children being killed on a daily basis by Israeli bombers, buldozers, missles, etc.”

    Can you give me one iota of evidence of these thousands of women and children slain at the hands of Israelis each day? Please do not provide any links to Al Jazeera unless you’d like also to provide me with a link to the website of the Palestinian Hamas.

    “You did not mentioned the encroachment of Israelis on Palestinian territories by building settlements.”

    The Israelis have been on the little piece of land for 5,000 years. Seems to me like they have more of a right to it than the Palestinians. IN a short 50 years they’ve succeeded in building a first world nation among a region of third world states. It is the Palestinians who are encroaching; it is they who refuse to live in peace:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7485022.stm

  93. 93 Muhammad Asim Munir
    July 2, 2008 at 14:56

    Hi WHYS!

    I hope you all are fine.

    It is a fact that in this era no nation can wipe out other nation from earth. The game is all about balance of power. Once this balance is created we could be more secure. A very vital example of it is that of India and Pakistan. India was about to invade Pakistan when Pakistan made atomic blasts and showed off its power. Since then we are in more peace.

    With atom bomb in hand no one is the winner. Therefore, two atomic countries can survive more peacefully as compared to countries where one is in atomic power.

    Atomic Iran will reduce Israeli influence but increase chances of peace. If Iran makes nuclear attack on Israel, would Iran exist then? No! No! And don’t think Iran could be so foolish.

  94. 94 Dan
    July 2, 2008 at 14:56

    @ Cheburet
    I applaude your idealism but it simply does not reflect reality in today’s world.
    Just how exactly will a toothless UN accountable to no one, staffed with corrupt fat old men & women who walk around saying “Harrumph-Harrumph” but doing nothing (Cambodia, Darfur, Mozambique etc…etc) take any action? Where was the UN after Saddam Hussein raped Kuwait? It took the United States to put together a coalition. The UN is useless and morally bankrupt. Millions have died needlessly waiting for UN relief. Additionally the UN controlled by anti-Democratic dictators regularly condemn Israel but NEVER condemn any Arab country or any act of Islamic terror.
    You also say that countries should condemn countries that threaten others. Wow…that is strong stuff and I’ll bet all terrorists cower under their beds hiding from world condemnation. The truth is that they don’t give a damn as they eschew civilization.
    So, do all nations have a right to exist?….Maybe but certain Governments do not have that right.

  95. 95 Shashidhar
    July 2, 2008 at 15:33

    It is truly amazing that every one talks of ONLY the Nuclear Iran. What about SUPER NUCLEAR ISRAEL, which has enough nuclear weapons to destroy the world several times over? How come the world press and media have no guts to raise such a simple question on such a menacing topic. All I have to say is wake up and smell the coffee. ISARAEL HAS nuclear weapons. Iran is way away from building them. Even a child will have the common sense to say that it is ISREAL which is a far greater threat to world peace in combination with mad howling Bush than Iran will ever be.

  96. 96 Anis
    July 2, 2008 at 15:36

    The debate seems to identify:
    1. Iran’s rulers are madmen
    2. Muslims are irrational
    3. Irrational people will nuke Israel and the World
    4. So, Iran must not have n-bomb
    5. Islamic militancy is all about killing innocent people

    The entire debate seems to be revolving around Muslim and the fault identified with Muslims.

    Fortunately, as proof we do not have a Muslim madman at White House that attacked Iraq and destroyed that Muslim country; USA is presently blackmailing them to accept their terms of security pact.

    Fortunately, UNO does not have any Muslim head to disagree with American view and block any resolution that goes against Muslims.

    Fortunately, America is being ruled by proxy by Jews. This Jew control is so intense that Obama had to promise that he will protect Israel if he becomes President. This promise is like unwritten constitution of USA.

    Lastly, fortunately again, Israel has been created out of Muslim land and no resistance is permissible. All activities against this occupation will be termed as ‘acts of terrorism’. However, Christians drove away Jews out of their own land during WWII and ensured that they remained ejected for ever. Muslims wanting their own land back are irrational lunatics…..etc etc.

    How do you expect Iran to keep quiet about it? You could shut up Arabs by simply terrorising them. The terror is such that Saudi king had **** in his pants when he was asked to increase production of oil to ease price ostensibly, but in reality this may be the first step in the direction of an assault on Iran. He agreed despite strong hesitation. Oil availability will take big hit once Iran is attacked. Iran cannot remain a silent spectator. Nuke or no nuke, Israel issue has to be settled and unless they talk the pressure from all sides will be kept up.

    Realistic view will be to negotiate status of Israel with Hamas, Hezbollah, the Arab neighbours and also Iran and resolve the basic issue. Israel is an illegitimate country on Muslim land. If it is not resolved Muslims will fight till annihilation – they do not fear death – as one respondent seems to have understood. America, a major source of conflicts anywhere and everywhere must stay away. Georgie must learn to suck his thumb. Unrealistic view is WWIII and nukes will be used one way or other. Choice is with the leaders of this world. Annihilation of Israel is not suggested here but there could be many options – give and take. Not take, take, take…..

  97. 97 steve
    July 2, 2008 at 15:39

    @ Anis

    Antisemites like you want Iran to get nuclear weapons so that israel can be destroyed. Why don’t you at least admit this, so that we can at least work from there? Don’t make me vomit by denying you are an antisemite. You hate jews. You say they control this, control that, people have to bow down to israel. Now we know the face of an antisemite, just admit you want Iran to destroy Israel.

  98. July 2, 2008 at 15:46

    “The entire debate seems to be revolving around Muslim and the fault identified with Muslims.”

    Yeah that’s pretty much it. Who is responsible for terrorism around the world? Surely not the Israeli civilians whom that Palestinian madman tried to bulldoze today. This administration disturbed a hive of poisonous wasps: Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan. But even their hive remained undistrubed, they’d still be just as poisonous.

  99. 99 Anthony
    July 2, 2008 at 15:50

    lol @ Anis

    Wow, Jews controlling America. Jews taking over? Wow, I think the last time I heard that was in Mein Kampf.

    And whats up with the “Israel being created out of Muslim land” thing? America was formed from Spanish, French, Mexican, English, etc. land, which was Indian land first. I don’t see that many people still complaining about that? I want to see a mad France wanting their land back, LOL!!!

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  100. 100 Virginia Davis
    July 2, 2008 at 15:50

    Hello all WHYSers and Mark Sandell. And also the guests. Shirley, thanks for your post.

    Colleen: great statement starting off with game theory.

    Myself, yesterday morning I wrote emails to Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid, asking if they – and Congress – could prevent this Administration from engaging in military action against Iran before leaving office. Am waiting for replies. (Smile)

    And thanks for a view from the ground, dear man in Tehran.

    Dan: your view of the martyrs arriving in Islamic heaven cracks me up. Just like the fact of yesterday and today that Vietnam will no longer allow US citizens to adopt their children.

    All this nuke/no nukes reminds me of time gone by. SANE and many people working actively to abolish nuclear weapons.

    And Steve: check out PMS Hackett who wrote in the late 40’s in Great Britain that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were bombed as the US opening salvo against the USSR in “the cold war.” He makes a very reasoned case that it was not to end World War II.

    Finally, to the guests on today’s program, welcome and I trust that as we listen to you, you all will listen to each other and find some common ground to close today’s discussion.

    Virginia in Oregon

  101. 101 Anis
    July 2, 2008 at 15:51

    Steve: How you draw your inferences totally baffles me. I would suggest that you use your brain and not heart to see what I have written. Let me also tell you that I have had some of my best friends among Jews, I respect Jews for their abilities, I feel sorry that they were handed out the worst that Europe could give to any thing living. I am not antisemitic but I sincerely want Israel to find a solution to the problem and not circumvent it. Shoving the problem under the carpet will only keep the Frankenstein alive. My last word on that will also be that Jews will gel with Muslims better than with Christians particularly the terrible European variety. History says so.

  102. 102 Virginia Davis
    July 2, 2008 at 15:53

    Oh yes. PS. Please stop dissing the United Nations. At least to such an aggravating extent and in such rude descriptors. Virginia in Oregon

  103. 103 steve
    July 2, 2008 at 15:54

    @ Anis:

    Thanks for making me laugh. You antisemites are absolutely hilarious. You should do standup comedy. These are YOUR words, pal.

    “Fortunately, America is being ruled by proxy by Jews. This Jew control is so intense that Obama had to promise that he will protect Israel if he becomes President. This promise is like unwritten constitution of USA.”

    “This Jew control” and yet you aren’t an antisemite. Right…… Next time, when you try to deny being an antisemite, do what is normally done, replace “jew” with “zionist”, then you can say you only hate Israel instead of Jews.

  104. 104 Tom D Ford
    July 2, 2008 at 15:56

    WHYS: ISRAEL AND IRAN – WHYS BRINGS THEM TOGETHER

    This is just a propaganda red herring to justify a war on Iran to get control of their oil again just like under their Shah. Remember the phony Bush/Cheney allegations of WMDs in Iraq?

    Search out and read “The Project For The New American Century” or PNAC and you will see that Bush/Cheney/PNAC are hell bent on Dominating the World and getting control of Iranian Oil is just part of their strategy.

    Do you and your family want to be dominated by these neo-fascists? I didn’t think so!

  105. 105 Anis
    July 2, 2008 at 16:01

    Anthony: Wow, Jews controlling America. Jews taking over? Wow, I think the last time I heard that was in Mein Kampf.

    This statement is good in a debate where you are away from me and get away by saying anything. But do not keep the realities of this world away or you will remain as disillusioned as Bush the rogue is.

    Look at the reality deep in USA. What I have written is true. Know your country first.

  106. 106 Anthony
    July 2, 2008 at 16:02

    @ Anis

    Because history says so? History says a lot of things. So should we live in the past? And I didn’t realize how great Jews and Muslims have gotten along through out the years. I mean, “Christians” and “Muslims” got along REALLY well in the 1940’s to try to rid the world of the Jews.

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  107. 107 steve
    July 2, 2008 at 16:03

    I hope the on air show doesn’t turn out to be a recitation of Mein Kampf, as Anthony pointed out. Also, Alsace Lorraine used to be part of Germany. Should Germany develop nuclear weapons to get it back?

    Spain used to be ruled by Muslims. Should muslims be back in control?

  108. 108 Mohammed Ali
    July 2, 2008 at 16:05

    @Steve,
    You always seem to get angry and at times hyperactive when it comes to discussing Israel. You use some foul languages simply because you have run out of argument and your knowledge on the topic under discussion is limited. In that case, I will suggest that you sit and watch the discussion rather than attaking personalities at a time when issues should be attacked. You pushed for the bombing of Iran and other Irab states, should we describe you as antiarab in that case?

    Anis posted what in her view is an objective way of settling the problem. You should have counter her arguments rather than branding her as antisemitics.

    @Moderators,
    Could we please allow some semblence of civility to prevail in this discussion? Can we please ask bloggers to discuss the topic under discussion rather than branded other bloggers as this and that? I am of the strong opinion that if issues are debated, the point of branded someone as antisemitics or antiblack or antiwhite or antiyellow, etc. will be curtail. I think stick-to-it-tiveness should be our guiding principle on this blog. Like that we will enjoy the forum.
    Thanks

  109. 109 steve
    July 2, 2008 at 16:05

    @ Anis

    Ahh, Jew controlled US. Jew controlled media.. I’ve always wondered that, given that the media are publically owned companies, meaning you can buy shares of them, do you automatically convert to Judaism when you buy shares, or are shares only sold to Jews? I’ve never figured that out. Anis, at my next Jews control the US meeting, I’ll make sure to show them your post, to let them know that you’ve caught on to us.

  110. 110 selena
    July 2, 2008 at 16:08

    @Steve

    I know this issue is passionate for you. It is for me too. But don’t you think you should at least try to understand what people are saying? Making judgments out of passion will not work in the long run.

    Not everyone who has a different point of view is antisemitic. When we close our minds to different perspectives, we lose our way.

    This issue is going to continue to be raw. The only way for it to heal is to stop picking off the scab every time it irritates us.

  111. 111 steve
    July 2, 2008 at 16:08

    @ Mohammed Ali

    When did I ever say that I want Iran Bombed or that I want arab nations bombed? Please provide me with a link where i said that. Calling an antisemite and antisemite isn’t a personal attack. I didn’t make Anis write what he/she wrote, but what he/she wrote was antisemitic, and hence I think it’s important to this discussion. How much of this disarming of Israel, and wanting Iran to have nuclear weapons stems from hatred of Jews rather than wanting “world peace”?

  112. 112 Anthony
    July 2, 2008 at 16:09

    @ Anis [From Steve: Anthony, don’t do that again, please]

    “This statement is good in a debate where you are away from me and get away by saying anything.” Uhh oh, we have a tuff guy on the Blog. First off, threatening people like that over a Blog is just funny, and hypocritical. Second off, I would gladly say that to your face (unless it was in a Muslim nation, where I would get shot for such words.).

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  113. 113 Anis
    July 2, 2008 at 16:09

    Steve: “This Jew control” and yet you aren’t an antisemite. Right…… Next time, when you try to deny being an antisemite, do what is normally done, replace “jew” with “zionist”, then you can say you only hate Israel instead of Jews.

    Again you are taking a keyhole view of what is being said. Try and understand the reality. I will have to send you pages of matter to get you to the truth. However, I am sure you understand but are trying to laugh it off for the sake of stretching your argument. There is no point in being anti Jew. Antisemites are only found among European Christians and their folks in USA; not anywhere else. I am neither. We are tolerant people.

  114. 114 steve
    July 2, 2008 at 16:09

    @ Selena

    Did you READ the post?

    ““Fortunately, America is being ruled by proxy by Jews. This Jew control is so intense that Obama had to promise that he will protect Israel if he becomes President. This promise is like unwritten constitution of USA.”

  115. 115 steve
    July 2, 2008 at 16:13

    @ Anis

    OMG, I cannot believe I’m reading what you wrote. “Antisemites are only found among European Christians and their folks in USA; not anywhere else. I am neither. We are tolerant people.”

    I cannot believe anyone would even write this down where it could be recorded for eternity. I also have no interest in reading whatever you hatesite links are about Jews controlling the US. I’m sure I can google any antisemite site and find what you are suggesting, but I don’t go to hate sites.

  116. 116 Dan
    July 2, 2008 at 16:16

    @ Virginia Davis
    We always have a civilized yet lively debate. Do not worry. It is too bad that we all cannot sit down after a debate in a cyber cafe and have a bite to eat together.
    However, I believe in my heart that the UN is worthless. Yes, some of the agencies do good but overall it is a morally bankrupt group of fat old men & women who do nothing other than hand out business cards showing that they are the “High Commissioner” of something and park illegally in New York. How many more innocent millions must die to prove that point?
    I believe that Iran getting a nuclear weapon is incredibly dangerous as the guiding philosophy of their theocracy is to murder and destroy. If they had a nuclear weapon and nuked Israel WWIII would ensue. Additionally the Mullah’s in Iran don’t give a damn about the Palestinians, never have..never will.
    If however Iran gives its nuclear weapon to Hamas or Hezbollah and they detonate it in a Western country or against the oil production again WWIII would ensue.
    Iran with a nuke means Armageddon is at hand.
    Lastly I remind you and all that Israel has never threatened any other state. If the Arabs put down their weapons there would be peace and prosperity on an unparalled level in the Middle East.

  117. 117 Anthony
    July 2, 2008 at 16:20

    LOL @ Anis

    HAHAHAHA. Wow. I heard a black guy tell me “I can’t be racist, I’m black, only whites are racist!”, and I thought that was the most absurd thing I’ve ever heard. “Antisemites are only found among European Christians and their folks in USA; not anywhere else. I am neither. We are tolerant people” has now taken the crown.

    Also, I am curious about the websites about Jews controlling the US. I’d like to understand where all this hoop-la really comes from. But I bet you they’re gonna be the same sites that talk about the Free Masons taking over the world, the US secret relationship with aliens, and the Reptilian Race that lives in the North Pole.

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  118. July 2, 2008 at 16:20

    Hi everybody
    Akbar here in Tehran
    There is alarm inside and outside Iran at deteriorating Tehran ties with the outside world.
    Iran is grappling with soaring inflation, unemployment, dwindling Forex revenues, drought, petrol rationing, EU sanctions and political and social unrest.
    Tehran is in no position to fight anyone, let alone launch an attack on Israel.
    The Syndicate of Iranian Journalists was recently banned by the government and to cap it all, what there is of the media, outside state owned TV and radio, fears for its existence. The press could have done so much for this country if it hadn’t been muzzled from the outset of the Revolution in 1979.
    The problem of Iran is social and economic. Subsidies are being phased out, which will drag 10 million people under the poverty line. Iran needs help. The ageing patriarchs and prelates have lost favour, even with their own sons. What is to become of Iran and who will take over the reins of power in Tehran, that is the question!

  119. 119 Gretchen Eldrich
    July 2, 2008 at 16:22

    Israel and Iran both act whacky due to religion and religious claims over the land on which Israel sits.

    If Israel and Iran mutually removed each other, the rest of us might well be better off. The key would be, everyone else, stay out of it.

  120. 120 Anis
    July 2, 2008 at 16:25

    Anthony: History says a lot of things. So should we live in the past?

    Have you been taught history so that you live in the past? I wonder what has education given you, that is if you are educated.

    Steve: “Spain used to be ruled by Muslims. Should muslims be back in control?”

    Inverted inference; no wonder you are looking upside down. Come on stand up and do not stand on your head (legs up) to understand what is being said here. Using your statement quoted above I have to say ‘Spain did right thing by talking their country back from invaders (Muslims) though I differ the way they did it.’ This is what Muslims are trying against Israel. Anything wrong?

  121. 121 Tom D Ford
    July 2, 2008 at 16:29

    Iran sits on large Oil reserves and that Oil will eventually run out.

    The most logical and rational thing for Iranians to do is make themselves energy self sufficient in the long term by developing and running on nuclear power and selling their Oil to the foolish nations who don’t make themselves energy self sufficient.

    They end up self sufficient and with all the money from the foolish westerners. The westerners end up poor and all they have left, is literally the smoke from burning the Oil.

  122. 122 Anthony
    July 2, 2008 at 16:35

    @ Anis

    “My last word on that will also be that Jews will gel with Muslims better than with Christians particularly the terrible European variety. History says so.

    I was responding to this silly :). So, with your logic, because history says so, then most likely that how it will be? Well Germany must be evil, Muslims are terrorists, and England rules the world!!! You are very contradictory.

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  123. 123 steve
    July 2, 2008 at 16:36

    @ Anis

    If you knew anything about History, Jews have always lived in Israel. LONG before Islam ever existed. Sorry if the facts aren’t good for your argument.

  124. 124 Anthony
    July 2, 2008 at 16:36

    I can already tell this is gonna be an AWESOME WHYS debate!!! I can’t WAIT for another 1.5 hours!!! 🙂

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  125. 125 Mohammed Ali
    July 2, 2008 at 16:40

    @Steve,
    It was by inference from Anis’ statement that you branded him/her as an antisemites. Your pro-war stance on issues when it comes to the Arab nations in several of your posting makes me to infer that you’ve advocated for the bombings of Arab states.
    I have argue over and over that a n-weapon free world is the best thing we can hope for. To argue that Israel should keep nuclear weapons while others are not allow to pursue the manufacturing of one is biased. We should understand that every country needs to protect her citizens and borders. To argue that one should have n-weapons and should not have it is to say that those other countries do not have the right to protect their borders.

    @John,
    How one sided could one be in their argument. your question to me suggest one of the two, either you don’t follow news on a daily basis or you so with partiality.

  126. 126 steve
    July 2, 2008 at 16:43

    @ Mohammed

    What would someone have to say for you to think they are an antisemite? He said that the Jews control the USA, that the Jews therefore have too much power.

    Im curious what he tinks needs to be done. Should jews not be allowed to vote?Should jews not be allowed to own property or something?

    What would someone have to say to make you think they are an antisemite? Could you provide an example?

  127. 127 Anthony
    July 2, 2008 at 16:48

    @ Mohammed Ali

    I don’t agree. You CAN give nukes to some countries, and not to others. It’s like a background check in the states for a concealed weapons permit. Any priors? Any felonies? What purpose do you need if for? Is your life in danger? Etc….

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  128. 128 Colleen
    July 2, 2008 at 16:55

    I think the accusatory and defensive tone of this string is very unfortunate and it is a good example of why these problems never get solved on the global scale.

  129. 129 selena
    July 2, 2008 at 16:55

    @Steve

    Anti this and anti that… what does it all mean? This issue always comes down to kids in the playground.

    My father is better than your father does not settle issues.

    Whenever this sort of thing happens it happens because there are things around the debate that someone doesn’t want to address.

    It does not matter who said or did what, where or when. It is the here and now that concerns us.

    We are all taught to hate. Isn’t it time to rise above the hate. Antisimetic… antimuslim… antichristian… antiblack,,, antiwhite… antiwoman… antihomosexual… it is all the same and we are all culpable. Hate is hate!

    It is about time we all acted our age and left the playground stuff behind.

    Please???

  130. 130 Rashid Patch
    July 2, 2008 at 16:59

    Not only does Israel have nuclear weapons, but Israeli politicians and leaders have threatened to use them against every one of it’s neighbors. Israeli pundits have routinely threatened to destroy Mecca and Medina, the holiest shrines of Islam. they have threatened to use nuclear weapons against European cities.

    With conventional weapons, Israel has seized and continues to occupt territory of every one of it’s neighbor nations. It has routinely made military incursions into it’s neighbor states. It has several times invaded Lebanon, and in the most recent instance, deliberately spread cluster-bombs over almost 25% of Lebanon’s agricultural land.

    Israel has ethnicly cleansed the Palestinian people from their lands, and has held the displaced in concentration camp conditions for 60 years.

    How can anyone take seriously such a violent aggressors’ claims to feel “threatened” by Iran? How can anyone discuss potential war in the middle east, without having as premise, that it would be initiated by Israel? The chronic paranoia and violence of the Israeli state are symptomatic of a cultural psychosis.

    Israel is the armed madman in the Middle East. Sooner or later, the world will have to face this squarely, and deal with it.

  131. 131 Anthony
    July 2, 2008 at 17:00

    @ selena

    So then it’s ok to be anti-semetic? Is it ok to hate another race? If you see a neo-nazi beating up a black kid, should you just say “hate is hate, I’ll rise above it.”. Muslim extreamists are just gonna hate, so let’s ignore them :). That’ll teach em’!!!

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  132. 132 steve
    July 2, 2008 at 17:03

    @ Rashid

    LOL, actually, the Palestinian’s “arab brothers” are the ones who keep them in refugee camps, but if it’s easier to blame all your problems on the Jews, be my guest.

  133. 133 Dan
    July 2, 2008 at 17:08

    @ Akbar Javadi
    Iran can have any form of Government that its people desire unfortunatly your leaders have imposed a religious dictatorship held in power by secret police hundreds of times worse than Savaak and removed any chance for the people to reform your Government.
    Then your Government embarked on a path to nuclear destruction of itself and its neighbors.
    If the people of Iran do not rise up and destroy those that now control you there seems to be only one disastererous outcome.
    The community of nations would welcome an Iran that wants to rejoin civilization and social, economic and humanitarian aid would flood the country lifting those who have been downtrodden by the existing religious theocracy.

  134. 134 Tom D Ford
    July 2, 2008 at 17:10

    @ Selena

    “It is about time we all acted our age and left the playground stuff behind.”

    Let’s leave our childhood imaginary friends behind too, let’s leave God to the children, let us all grow up and act like grownups.

  135. 135 Anis
    July 2, 2008 at 17:13

    For those who would like to know the influence of Jewish community in USA, please see the following list which is not exhaustive:

    Senior Current Adnministration officers:
    William S. Cohen, secretary of defense (1997-2001)
    Sandy Berger, national security advisor (1997–01)
    Ari Fleischer, white house press secretary (2001–03)
    Michael Chertoff, homeland security secretary (2005–)
    Joshua Bolten, White House Chief of Staff (2006–)
    Michael Mukasey, Attorney General (2007-)

    Senators:
    Carl Levin Democrat Michigan 1978
    Arlen Specter Republican Pennsylvania 1980
    Frank Lautenberg Democrat New Jersey 2002 Previously served 1982–2001 Herb Kohl Democrat Wisconsin 1988
    Joseph Lieberman, he caucuses with Democrats, but endorsed John McCain for President. In the 2000 U.S. presidential election, Lieberman was the Democratic candidate for Vice President, running alongside presidential nominee Al Gore, becoming the first Jewish candidate on a major American political party presidential ticket.
    Dianne Feinstein[1] Democrat California 1992
    Barbara Boxer Democrat California 1992
    Russ Feingold Democrat Wisconsin 1992
    Ron Wyden Democrat Oregon 1996
    Charles Schumer Democrat New York 1998
    Norm Coleman Republican Minnesota 2002
    Ben Cardin Democrat Maryland 2006
    Bernie Sanders Independent (Democratic Socialist) Vermont 2006

    George Soros
    Max Frankel, New York Times
    Joseph Lelyyeld, New York Times
    Katherine Graham, Washington Post
    Henry Grunwald, Time Magazine
    Eugene Meyer, Washington Post
    Barbara Walters ABC News
    Wolf Blitzer, CNN

  136. 136 Anthony
    July 2, 2008 at 17:13

    @ Rashid

    http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/10/26/ahmadinejad/index.html

    I don’t understand your statment. It would be Israel to start it? Didn’t the former Ayatollah say that “Israel must be wiped off the face of the earth”, and then the new president agreed with it? How is that not threatening? Hehe, lol 🙂

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  137. 137 steve
    July 2, 2008 at 17:14

    @ Anis

    Thanks, I guess that’s the first stage. Singling out the Jews. What should happen with these Jews? SHould they be removed from office and the ones in the media should be forbidden from working? Perhaps locked up? What do you suggest?

  138. 138 Dan
    July 2, 2008 at 17:15

    @ Rashid Patch
    Thanks for the great laugh. We all laughed so hard our sides hurt.
    Where did you get that act? I encourage you to read material from outside your circle and if you have an open mind you will see the truth written by credible scholars and citing credible sources.
    Now tell me that what you said was satire as no one in the 21st Century can honestly believe what you wrote.

  139. 139 Anthony
    July 2, 2008 at 17:16

    @ Anis.

    WOW! That is SOOOOO Many! How many “whites” are there in office? I believe the ratio will be quite high in comparison. Lol. 🙂

    Also, where are those site you were speaking of?

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  140. July 2, 2008 at 17:16

    @Mohamd Ali

    No no, I asked you to provide with direct and conclusive evidence of these alleged massacres carried out by Israelis on a daily basis, as you claim. If I do not see these events in the news, does that mean that I am clouded with “bias”? Or does it perhaps mean that such events do not take place and you should read something besides Al Jazeera?

  141. 141 Angela in Washington D.C.
    July 2, 2008 at 17:17

    I think it is interesting that someone lists influential Jewish people. The one thing that many people forget is that all people are not the same. Everyone does not have the same views. Would one also list influential people of Irish or Italian decent.

  142. 142 Virginia Davis
    July 2, 2008 at 17:18

    I applaud Selena’s post. A world with no nukes would be a safer place.

    There is a fine article in today’s CS Monitor which makes clear that diplomacy among Israel, Iran and the US is the solution. Not saber-rattling. And is quite specific about some of the least desired outcomes. The two authors are, respectively, Israeli and Iranian.

    All the angry back and forth above is disconcerting. It’s too early in the morning here to drink but I suggest a couple of rounds for a number of the above bloggers.

    (My way of leaving the playground, Selena – smile.)

    Virginia in Oregon

  143. 143 Anis
    July 2, 2008 at 17:22

    Steve: If you knew anything about History, Jews have always lived in Israel. LONG before Islam ever existed. Sorry if the facts aren’t good for your argument.

    I suspected your quality of education. Your above quote confirms my fears. Unfortunately people who are reasonable and rational are hard to come by these days. The problems can be solved by those people.

  144. 144 steve
    July 2, 2008 at 17:25

    @ Anis

    I didn’t go to a school where I was taught to hate jews. Perhaps you can enlighten me on the apparent lies I was taught. Apparently Judaism doesn’t predate Islam by about over 1000 years, and apparently Jews never lived in Israel before Islam was created. Please enlighten us all! Hopefully nobody will be eating when they read your post so they don’t choke to death!

  145. 145 Dan
    July 2, 2008 at 17:28

    @ Angela in Washington DC
    BRAVO…the best comment of the day….maybe the entire year!!!

  146. 146 Anis
    July 2, 2008 at 17:31

    Angela in Washington: The list has been only given to help people understand the strength of Jewish influence in USA. That lot of people together in concerted manner can do a lot of things that can be, in many ways one sided and favouring a targeted beneficiary.

    I added this in support of my earlier post suggesting USA is by proxy ruled by Jews. There is no purpose for Italians or Irish list to be added here.

  147. 147 Anthony
    July 2, 2008 at 17:39

    So I’m wondering, would a war between Iran and Irsael solve anything? What would be the final outcome?

    @ Dan

    Last years best quote was Senator Craigs “I have a wide stance”. Hehe, lol!!!

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  148. 148 Angela in Washington D.C.
    July 2, 2008 at 17:39

    @Anis

    I was not implying there was a need to add a list for people with Italian or Irish decent. There are a lot of people of Jewish decent in the States and they have influence but there are other groups that have a lot of influence also. The main people of influence in politics are the lobbyists.

    Also, the US by proxy is not ruled by people of Jewish decent. I do not believe W is Jewish.

  149. 149 selena
    July 2, 2008 at 17:39

    @Anthony

    Actually, I am saying the opposite. It is not OK to hate. I am sorry if my post left you with the impression that I condone hatred of any human being, for any reason.

    What are you saying? Is it OK to hate Muslims but not Jews? Is it OK to hate Jews but not Muslims?

    The lie of the land in this discussion seems to be it is OK to hate one group but not another.

    Where does it all end?

  150. 150 selena
    July 2, 2008 at 17:41

    @Steve

    You live in a country where hatred of Muslims is accepted. Is it not? 🙂

  151. July 2, 2008 at 17:43

    Why slam the users, why not the weapons themselves! And who created it first to be distributed to others. Who is letting some of them to use and some of them not to?

    You cannot advice others to clean their hands if your hands are filthy dirty.

  152. 152 Justin from Iowa
    July 2, 2008 at 17:45

    Someone should evacuate Jeruselem, and nuke the place into a smoking crater. God would surely approve of the removal of something which causes so much strife, since his earthly childeren can’t stop squabbling over it.

  153. 153 Angela in Washington D.C.
    July 2, 2008 at 17:45

    The hatred of Muslims is not accepted in the U.S. The concern lies with individuals who may be fanatical and extremist. I believe many moderate Muslims do not agree with extremists.

  154. 154 steve
    July 2, 2008 at 17:46

    @ Selena

    “You live in a country where hatred of Muslims in accepted. Is it not?”

    Are you kidding? If that were true, why do muslims from all over the world come here to live? Why is there a muslim in congress if hatred of muslims is accepted here? I must have skipped school the day they taught us to hate muslims.

  155. 155 selena
    July 2, 2008 at 17:47

    @Angela

    Isn’t that the problem? Who defines extremist and fanatic?

  156. 156 selena
    July 2, 2008 at 17:49

    @Steve

    What was that you said earlier today about 72 virgins? 🙂

  157. 157 Count Iblis
    July 2, 2008 at 17:49

    Perhaps Steve has formulated the fundamental problem:

    …you want Iran to get nuclear weapons so that israel can be destroyed. Why don’t you at least admit this,
    so that we can at least work from there?

    Perhaps the driving force of the conflict is simply this sentiment expressed by Steve.
    No matter what the facts are, people like Steve know for sure that Iran wants
    to wipe Israel off the mape using nuclear weapons. Steve knows for sure that people who argue
    that he is wrong are part of the Iranian conspiracy to wipe Israel off the map. That irritates Steve,
    because these people are dishonest by hiding that fact

  158. 158 viola
    July 2, 2008 at 17:49

    @Selena

    This blog is not the playground. The world is. As long as some leaders of some countries persist in acting like kids in the playground by making threats and funding and supplying terrorist militias and publicly proclaiming its desire to annihilate another nation, the rational people of the world have to treat them like they are dangerous kids in the playground.

    Remember the book “Everything I Ever Really Needed to Know I learned in Kindergarten”? Maybe leaders of countries believe that, too.

  159. 159 Angela in Washington D.C.
    July 2, 2008 at 17:49

    @Justin from Iowa

    Although I know you meant it as a joke. Nuking Jerusalem would not do anything. The people that hate Isreal want the country and the people destroyed.

  160. 160 Anthony
    July 2, 2008 at 17:49

    @ selena

    I never once said it was OK to hate muslims. I do think its ok to hate. I’m sorry, but you know that Austrian guy who raped his daughter, and a few of his kids died from keeping them locked up? Well, I HATE that guy. Whats wrong with that? I hope he dies, and I hope anyone that does the say is killed. I hope serial killers are put to death, and if given the chance, I would shoot Richard Ramierez in the head with some buck shoot. Whats wrong with that?

    So if someone hates me, threatens me, and it plotting to kill me because I’m brown, it’s not OK to prepare to kill him, just incase?

    And it’s not OK in America to hate Muslims, it is however ok to hate Jews and Christians in Muslim states.

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  161. 161 Dan
    July 2, 2008 at 17:52

    Judging by Anis I guess that the Nobel committee is also corrupt as Jews overwhelmingly win those awards.
    Maybe you need to get a mirror and look carefully at your own prejudices.
    There are several groups of people that believe heavily in education and advancing the course of themselves and civilization.
    Then there are those that wallow in ignorance and desire to advance tribal culture and life under the thumb of religious dictators who rule by whim rather than by law.
    You list a few anecdotal names and draw a statistical conclusion. Jews, Asians, Eastern Europeans, Russians and several other well educated peoples have advanced the course of civilization but it is so convenient to hate the Jews.
    Finally if you acheived your dream of a Jew-free world what would you be left with?

  162. 162 Angela in Washington D.C.
    July 2, 2008 at 17:53

    @Selena

    I understand you are discussing the different perspectives but fanatical is pretty self evident. Despite the person who defines the word, it means the same thing. Most fanatical people do not think they are moderates.

  163. 163 Mohammed Ali
    July 2, 2008 at 17:54

    @Anis,
    I was just telling Steve about attacking personalities and I think you should not do it to him.

    @Steve,
    in my beleive it is no form of antisemitism by saying that Jews control the government or the media or the businesses or the military. If the Jews exert their influence and that influence led them to controlling certain aspect of society, then my hearts off to them for being influencial. Here in Liberia the Indians, Lebanese and Fulas control the business sector. I don’t think by saying that would suggest that you are antilebanese, antiindian or anti fula. You are on;y acknowledging thier ability to do business.

    Let us not be hypersensitive when the word Jew is mentioned.

    @John,
    Why shouldn’t I recommend Al-Jazeera to you, is it because it doesn’t cast your taste of news.

  164. 164 graceunderfire
    July 2, 2008 at 17:54

    Curious talk from a bunch of bystanders. An observation: The actions of a group are trivially predictable following analysis of the selection rules for its leaders. Thus, what ever will happen, is already in progress. Prepare for a change in your life style.
    guf

  165. 165 Anis
    July 2, 2008 at 17:59

    Steve: I always thought that best schools and Universities were located in USA. I am also sure today that the worst too is in USA. Good school and good Universities produce the best as well as the worst too. Look what Yale has produced – George Bush. Tragedy is that world is a loser because money poured to educate people turned out some madmen.

  166. 166 selena
    July 2, 2008 at 17:59

    @Angela

    Anthony has said it is OK to hate. Could he be described him as a fanatic?

  167. 167 Angela in Washington D.C.
    July 2, 2008 at 18:01

    @Selena

    You have to consider the situation. I hate child molesters and someone who would kill their own child but that is different than hating a group of people.

  168. 168 kareem Brown
    July 2, 2008 at 18:02

    Israel has been threatening Iran with military strike against international law. Not only military action without the due process of the Security Council is against the Charter of the United Nations, but the threat of military strike is against the UN Charter. However, despite the statements of the Iranian president, that have been hugely distorted, Iranian supreme leader and other high ranking figures in the Iranian leadership have communicated clearly that they have no intention of attacking Israel or any other country. In 2003 President Khatami with the Approval of the leader, Khomeini, proposed an olive branch to Israel by indicating to the US that they would accept the Saudi Initiative, that is a de facto recognition of Israel. Why has this never been taken up by the Israelis and the Israeli lobby? Also the president in Iran is not a permanent position, neither has he any significant power over foreign policy decisions or the nuclear programme. Why is there so much hype around him likening him to Hitler and portraying his as having such power that he does not have or such threat from iran which is not supported by reality? Is it the case that Israel too, like the US, has an agenda of expansionism and foreign aggressive policy that can be carried out through scaremongering, and mobilising the population of Israel through non-existent terror?

  169. July 2, 2008 at 18:04

    Hi Dan

    You are talking about a government and regime which has consolidated its power over the last thirty years. We are already in the third generation after the Revolution.
    When you suggest the nation can have “any government that its people desire,” this is wishful thinking.
    I agree with the rest. Regarding the nuclear issue, this initially cropped up in the early seventies when the US was anxious to equip Iran with nuclear capability.
    Reform is vital for Iran and the sooner the country embarks on a civil agenda, the better.
    I think change is not far off, but not necessarily through bloodshed.

  170. 170 steve
    July 2, 2008 at 18:11

    @ Kareem

    nonexistent terror? Boy, you israel haters should do standup comedy! What was that bulldozer attack today? oh I know! Those pesky jews are pretending to be arabs and do it to make arabs look bad. isn’t that it! those pesky jews!

    Maybe Iran should tone down the “Wipe Israel off the map” language and stop hosting holocaust denial conferences to show it is the peace loving nation you claim it is?

  171. 171 steve
    July 2, 2008 at 18:12

    @Anis

    Could you rather than attack the schools in the USj, tell me how I’m wrong when I’ve said Jews have lived in ISrael for over 1000 years before Islam was even created? Do you have some fact you’d like to state, or will you just insult the US education system and not prove your “point” whatever that is? How am I wrong? Please explain it to me.

  172. 172 Mohammed Ali
    July 2, 2008 at 18:13

    @John,
    Cou;d you please read this and give me your verdict tomorrow?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel-Palestine_conflict#Collective_punishment

  173. 173 selena
    July 2, 2008 at 18:14

    @Angela

    In my view we should take a good hard look at why we hate, even if that hatred is against child molesters and the like.

    Is it possible to deal with the issue of killers and child molesters without hating them?

    What kind if energy does it take to hate? What does hating do to the hater?

    Those are all serious questions that need to be asked before we can begin to address societal divisions. as I see it.

  174. 174 Anis
    July 2, 2008 at 18:14

    Dan: I did not initiate any Jew hate trade by mentioning the Jewish influential names. Neither did I suggest that they are corrupt or are corrupting administration in USA. You are reading unwritten lines. It only suggests that the influence of Jews in Washington is overwhelming and the proof was just available when Obama had to promise safety of Israel after he became President.

    Please tell me when Nobel committee became part of USA or its administrative machinery? Please also tell me where I suggested that the world should be a Jew free world? In fact Europe did attempt to make Jew free Europe but succeeded only partially. By supporting Israel with all their might they are only trying to preserve the exodus. How else can you justify Angela Merkel’s statement that Israel will be protected with full might of Germany and EU. She never says all Jews who suffered at the hands of Nazis are welcome back home.

    Dan, please read the lines that are being written and read nothing between them.

  175. 175 selena
    July 2, 2008 at 18:15

    @Steve

    Your vision is clouded again, dear one 😉

  176. 176 kareem Brown
    July 2, 2008 at 18:17

    Iran government has proven itself to be sane and rational, whatever the issues with human rights and domestic civil liberties may or may not be. This has been borne by the fact that Iran, including the Islamic regime, has not attacked any country unilaterally and has not even responded to attacks, as in the case of Taliban killing Iranian diplomats. This does not apply to the government of Israel which is guilty of carrying out many brutal attacks and inflaming wars. Israel is the only country in the Middle East with an illegal nuclear arsenal and there is no evidence of Iran having a nuclear programme. The issue of president Ahmadi Nedjad and threat from Iran is being intentionally hyped up, as a pretext for military attack or regime change. At issue is not Iran’s threat, rather the issue is Iran’s energy sources and its strategic position.

  177. 177 Muhammed
    July 2, 2008 at 18:17

    If Israel attacks IRAN’S NUCLEAR PLANTS then IRAN should wipe Israel off the map if it has the millitary capability to do it.

  178. 178 R Machado
    July 2, 2008 at 18:17

    No country should have nuclear weapons. Fanatics exist all over the world any may be part of any government of any country. Fanatics in USA dropped the nuclear bomb in Japan and now fanatics in Israel want to destroy the nuclear plant in Iran.
    People should live in peace and respect each other. People should have the right to live in a country, to have food and water, and a nacionality.
    If we respect each other these discussions would be irrelevant.

  179. 179 steve
    July 2, 2008 at 18:17

    @ selena

    clouded with facts perhaps? Care to elaborate, or should i just resign myself to accepting I had a horrible schooling for thinking Judaism is older than Israel? I cannot believe this discussion on here.

  180. 180 Santa
    July 2, 2008 at 18:19

    Iran has to defend itself like any other country. The Iranian navy is a powerful one in the region and can damage U.S forces in Persian Gulf by the first probable attack. Besides their rockets reach Israel. I think any attack to this country will make Israel the first nation to disappear.

  181. 181 Mason
    July 2, 2008 at 18:20

    An Israeli attack on Iran would be disastrous for the entire world, but it is very probable.  Israel has proven time and again since its founding that it is an aggressive, expansionist country.  Additionally the US will not act to restrain its ally since the present administration is clearly going through the diplomatic process simply to get to a point where it can rationalize its own aggressive actions against Iran, it would be perfectly fine for Bush and his administration for someone else to do it and take the political heat.
        At the same time Iran needs to come to the table, and prove that there is no military side to its nuclear program, the prospect of this happening is very low….so like two small children, the two countries will remain stubborn, and continue prodding each other, until it is too late.
     

  182. 182 Shashidhar
    July 2, 2008 at 18:21

    How come no one is talking about the enormous cache of nuclear weapons owned by Israel? or are they the chosen people that deserve to own all weapons of destruction and others absolutely nothing?

  183. 183 Anthony
    July 2, 2008 at 18:21

    @ steve

    Didn’t King David (Jew) take over that land WAY before the muslims existed as a religion? I think you’re correct. 🙂

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  184. 184 Dr. Will Ware
    July 2, 2008 at 18:22

    Iran’s leader never called for force to destroy Israel militarily. The correct translation of the entire text Azmejinidan (sp?) he was referring to the demographic reality that in a true democratic outcome of a vote in Israel and the occupied territories there would be no exclusively Jewish state as we know it.

    The shrill and distorted mis-translation was just a smokescreen for the longstanding, covert Israeli policies of ethnic cleansing and sub-Apartheidization of the Muslim and Christian communities in the occupied territories.

    As a lifelong supporter of Israel I am prepared to say that neither the current Israeli or Iranian leadershership are sane enough to be allowed to have atom bombs.

  185. 185 steve
    July 2, 2008 at 18:22

    More lies from the Iranian. EThnic cleansing? If so, Israelis are REALLY bad at it. Quit your dirty lies.

  186. 186 Viola
    July 2, 2008 at 18:23

    The statement that “Israel cannot live with a nuclear Iran” could be read two ways:

    1. That Israel refuses to accept that Iran has a right to possess nuclear weopons

    OR

    2. That Israel believes that if Iran possesses nuclear weopons, everyone in Israel will be dead

    Number 2 above is, I believe, the way ordinary Israeli’s feel.

    Is the conflict artificially created? Only if Iran’s leadership doesn’t mean what it says when they make public statements about Israel.

    Has Israel overreacted? No. When someone threatens to destroy your nation and everyone in it, there can be no overreaction unless God personally tells you they don’t mean it.

    Who or what drives this? On Iran’s side, hatred, over-weening Islamic pride, desire for vengeance at perceived injustice, and dreams of Empire. On the Israeli side, survival.

    I don’t believe either nation is abnormal. Nations are what they are and calling them abnormal is fruitless. They can have true, lasting peace if they want true, lasting peace.

  187. 187 Dan
    July 2, 2008 at 18:23

    Hi Akbar Javadi
    My Sister-In-Law is Iranian. I have great feelings for the Iranians who have a rich history and who kept the Middle East from erupting for many years.
    Then the “revolution” happened and all went to hell.
    Sadly the Mullahs through radical Islam have brought Iranians down to the level of radical Arabs in the mind of the world.
    To reclaim your Aryian culture and history the Government must be replaced. It will be very tough but the basic truth is that any country can have any Government it desires…it will not be easy and people will sacrifice their lives.
    I think also that the US was immature and foolish trying to equip Iran with nuclear weapons when the Shah was in power. We have grown up and matured.

    P.S. I miss the Iranian pistachios.

  188. 188 Michael
    July 2, 2008 at 18:24

    Peace in the Middle East will never come to fruition until the USA stops supporting Israel, then Israel will be forced to become a good neighbour.

    If Israel does not want any others in the Middle East to obtain nuclear weapons why not set the example and retire its own nuclear arsenal?

  189. 189 steve
    July 2, 2008 at 18:24

    For those who deny the Ahadmenijad wants israel wiped off the map.

  190. 190 steve
    July 2, 2008 at 18:26

    Can Cyrus let us know if he thinks Israel has a right to exist? If if not, what should happen with ISrael and the people there? Usually the answers one givees to this question lets you know why they they argue the way they do.

  191. July 2, 2008 at 18:27

    I am wondering why it is not right for the governments of the world that are certainly terrorised by the almighty world power, the government of the USA, to bear arms, including nuclear weapons, in order to secure the territorial integrity of their countries and their nations, while Americans who feel insecure may bear arms to secure themselves in the USA.

    I am also wondering why it is right for the USA government to continue to develop even the most sophisticated weapons, including biological weapons; why it has not been compelled to give up the weapons, as it compels other governments to do; to sign the treaties on weapons; and to face the ICC on war crime.

    Prince Awele Odor
    Lagos, Nigeria

  192. 192 Shirley
    July 2, 2008 at 18:27

    As far as I can tell, there is one lady as a guest of the show. The men have been systematically talking, sometimes shouting, over her. Btw, I am missing the name of at least one of the guests. I haveAnad (spelling?), Meir, Miqdad, Jonathon, and Syrus (spelling?)

  193. 193 Venessa
    July 2, 2008 at 18:28

    I second Steve’s question! Please ask it.

  194. 194 steve
    July 2, 2008 at 18:28

    Cryus admits Iran is fighting back. But over Palestine? I didn’t realize Palestine is part of Iran. Iranians aren’t even arab. SO what are the Palestinians fighting back over? Hatred of Jews? People who are different than Muslims who have the “nerve” to live in the middle east? What cyrus are the Iranians fighting over the Palestinians for?

  195. 195 selena
    July 2, 2008 at 18:29

    @Steve

    Just listen to the debate(?).

    How sad it is!

    When no one listens there is no chance for change.

    The young lady is not making the case for Israel any better.

    Many of us grew up without extended families. That does not give special rights.

  196. 196 Justin from Iowa
    July 2, 2008 at 18:30

    Please correct me if I am wrong, but I am under the assumption that the option for a nuclear program accompanied by thorough inspection oversight has been put forward and rejected by Iran?

    That has always seemed like an implicitly guilty action to me.

  197. 197 Adam
    July 2, 2008 at 18:31

    I would really like it if the folks on air would quit trying to shout over one another. It’s like being stuck in the car with people having a heated argument.

  198. 198 R Machado
    July 2, 2008 at 18:31

    Steve,
    Let me answer your question to Cyrus with another question: Do you think Palestine has a right to exist? This is the main question, because the existence of Israel is not a question (at least, for most of the world population), but the question is: Does Israel have the right to exist obliterating the existence of Palestine?

  199. 199 Angela in Washington D.C.
    July 2, 2008 at 18:32

    @Selena

    I say this as kind as possible. If someone cannot understand how one could be disgusted and hate a child molester, then we have completely different morals and I can understand how one would not understand other differences.

  200. 200 Justin from Iowa
    July 2, 2008 at 18:33

    Also, picking up the point by the BBC correspondent… how many countries in the world actually do enrich their own nuclear material, compared to how many have nuclear power?

    I had assumed most countries with nuclear power enriched their own material. If not… what’s all the fuss with this option by Iran?

  201. 201 Michael
    July 2, 2008 at 18:33

    Peace in the Middle East will never come to fruition until the USA stops supporting Israel, then Israel will be forced to become a good neighbour.

    If Israel does not want any others in the Middle East to obtain nuclear weapons, why not set the example and retire its own nuclear arsenal?

  202. 202 steve
    July 2, 2008 at 18:33

    @ Machado

    I think a Palestine has the right to exist if it will leave in peace with ISreal, and not be a base for attacking Israel. Sorry pal, but there’s never been a Palestine before, so israel isn’t obliterating anything. Too bad their arab brothers occupied them from 1948-1967 rather than giving them independence, but it’s SOOO much easier to blame everything on Israel.

  203. 203 Hamid
    July 2, 2008 at 18:36

    I would like to express my deepest disappointment with what is going on in the world today. After what happened to Iraqis and Afghans, we expected that the west does something to prevent more bloodshed apparently this is not the trend. I hope I can find people who would agree that the world can really live peacefully provided positive attitudes find their ways into politics.

  204. 204 steve
    July 2, 2008 at 18:36

    Hey professor:

    I wonder if you ever spoke out against Arab occupation of the Palestinians from 1948-1967. Something tells me you had no problem with it! Hypocrite!

  205. 205 selena
    July 2, 2008 at 18:37

    @Angela

    No need to try to be kind. 🙂

  206. 206 Shaun from Halifax
    July 2, 2008 at 18:39

    I have a question to pose to everybody. According to my understanding, to enrich uranium to a fissionable isotope (U-235 I believe), you run it through the same centrifuges a few more times. Having the capability to enrich uranium, but not actually doing it is called a threshold nuclear capability (I believe), what is the opinion on Iran having a threshold capability?

  207. 207 CJ McAuley
    July 2, 2008 at 18:39

    I commend WHYS for both having this show and for trying to let the participants speak to each other for 5 minutes, which did not go that long due to the rapid degeneration of the “discussion”. This has made me understand the true intransigence at work here on all sides. I am not a huge supporter of Israel’s actions, but I accept that the Holocaust happened and am capable of comprehending why Israel probably has nukes, for as far as I know, no other people have been subject to a planned state program of genocide! By the way, in case no one there is civil enough to understand this fact: one’s own opinion is by no way enhanced or heard by the constant interruption of someone to who you are supposed to be talking!!!

  208. 208 Nima
    July 2, 2008 at 18:40

    The issue of internal politics in Iran nothing to do with its nuclear programme and the insistence of the lady on the panel for Prof Edalat to try and justify the Iranian government’s internal oppression is totally irrelevant

  209. 209 selena
    July 2, 2008 at 18:40

    @Steve

    “Sorry pal, but there’s never been a Palestine before, so israel isn’t obliterating anything.”

    Please???

  210. 210 R Machado
    July 2, 2008 at 18:41

    @ Steve

    It is not true that there’s never been a Palestine before. I live in Brazil and I’m neither arab nor jew. I have a National Geographic map of the Middle East issued in 1939. I can see a country called Palestine on it.
    Also, even if Palestine had never existed, Israel does not have the right to confiscate the properties of the palestine families.
    No country has the right to exist in such condition.

  211. 211 Michael, London
    July 2, 2008 at 18:41

    Iran’s nuclear programme is under international supervision and has been confirmed by the IAEA as peaceful. In contrast Israel has admitted to having hundreds of nuclear warheads and they have refused to open up their programme to international inspections. Israel should really stop playing the “victim” card.

    The argument that Israel is a responsible state and will not use nuclear weapons no matter what is flawed in every way. In the Yum Kupour War the Jericho missiles and the nuclear strike F-4s at Tel Nof were armed and prepared for action against Syrian and Egyptian targets. The Israeli’s at the time also targeted Damascus with nuclear capable long-range artillery.

  212. 212 Dan
    July 2, 2008 at 18:41

    Anis: You are clever but your talk is against Jewish influence and your argument hold no water. We all read between the lines as it was too obvious and what Obama had to say is a non-Sequiter.
    But back on track and listening to the On-Air show demonstrates that the Islamists will not answer a direct question directly but are expert at slandering and lying about Israel & Jews.

  213. 213 Paul
    July 2, 2008 at 18:42

    Why is Israel not subject to IAEA regulation? They have more nuclear weapons than FRANCE !!! In 1972 / 73 they provided IRAN with the wherewithal to build weapons just as they did in South Africa. Time for ALL counties to submit to international supervision!! Stop the hypocrisy please !!

  214. 214 steve
    July 2, 2008 at 18:42

    @ Machado

    Sorry, but your’e wrong. That 1939 national geographic is showing the British Mandate of Palestine. It was run by the British. There has NEVER been an independent Palestine EVER in history. Doesn’t mean there shouldn’t be one in the future, but you are being dishonest if you’re saying there has even been a Palestine before.

  215. 215 Justin from Iowa
    July 2, 2008 at 18:43

    Does Iran have nuclear material resources within its boundaries?

  216. 216 Lea, via text
    July 2, 2008 at 18:44

    A civilian nuclear programme is fine for most sensible nations’ governments but can the US,UN and Middle East trust Iran, given Mr Ahmadinenajads ravings? I THINK NOT!

  217. 217 Lea, via text
    July 2, 2008 at 18:45

    Our problem is not with the Iranian people, our problem is with the leadership of Iran. The nation of Israel can no sit and wait to be attack by Iran. The Iranian leader has made his intention very clear against Israel.

    We also have a problem with the Palestinians people and Lebanon. There are terrorist that participate in the political activities of these people. Iran and Syria have their hands in Lebanon via Hezbollah and with the Palestinians via Hamas.

    The Iranian people need to wake up and remove the Hitler of the Middle East.

  218. 218 steve
    July 2, 2008 at 18:46

    Professor:

    Tell your President that we jews just loved the holocaust denial conferences you held. Thanks! Thanks for loving us so much!

  219. 219 Jitan Chandanani
    July 2, 2008 at 18:46

    I am neither from IRAN nor ISRAEL. I think the IRAN President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is an ignorant fool who has made an effort time and again to defy history.
    All said I yet dont understand is why cant ISRAEL stop playing victim over and over again – they pretend to be such angels but seem to be constantly irking every second country time and again…

  220. 220 R Machado
    July 2, 2008 at 18:46

    @ Steve

    I did not say Palestine was independent. I only said that Palestine DID exist in the past, what you denied.
    But that’s not the point. What do you say about the illegal appropriation of palestine land by Israel?

  221. 221 Michael in Portland
    July 2, 2008 at 18:47

    HOW CAN ANYONE BE RIGHT WHEN EVERYONE IS WRONG

  222. 222 Angela in Washington D.C.
    July 2, 2008 at 18:47

    I cannot believe that gentlemen just said that. Ahmadinejad has said numerous things about Isreal. It shows how some people will completely ignore facts.

  223. 223 Nelson
    July 2, 2008 at 18:47

    i dont know if any one is listening to the debate live online, the debate is degenerating into a fight. the guys discussing are just beating round the bush

  224. 224 Peter Noordijk
    July 2, 2008 at 18:48

    The NPT is exactly to remove state sovereignty from nuclear programs. A nuclear program with secrets or “sovereignty” is as good as a nuclear weapons program to a country’s neighbors. A civil nuclear program has full exposure to the IAEA.

    Iran has lied to the IAEA over and over and obstructed and used sleight of hand to hide facilities and information. They have agreed to additional safeguards with Europe, then reneged on the agreement. They have defected from international obligations again and again.

    States that are trying to get a nuclear capability ARE a threat to their neighbors, and they should expect some kind of response. The main problem is that Iran seems to be using the cover of the NPT without abiding by its intention.

    Israel never signed the NPT, never joined the IAEA, never pretended to not want nuclear weapons, never tried to ease the security dilemma. Iran has tried to hide elements of its programs.

    No-one should expect neighbors to sit by while a single country violates its treaty obligations repeatedly and develops a semi-secret nuclear (weapons or civil) capability.

    We will see Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Syria, Egypt potentially pursue weapons as soon as Iran’s program develops outside the NPT.

  225. 225 Susan
    July 2, 2008 at 18:48

    I’m tired of the world always expecting little Israel to solve its problems. A nuclear Iran is a threat also to Europe, and yet Europe sits on its hands, quietly sending diplomatic messages that an Israeli strike would be welcome, hoping Israel will take care of this as it took care of the Osirak reactor in Iraq. This is nonsense. It’s time for Europe to stand up and take responsibility for itself, instead of constantly asking Israel to do the dirty work.

  226. 226 steve
    July 2, 2008 at 18:49

    @ Machado

    That’s a very weak argument. I suppose the Republic of Vermont exists today because some people want it?Palestine was the name of a geographic area. It could also be called the Levant if you want as well.

    But that’s not the point. Was the arab occupation of Palestine from 1948-1967 illegal, or is only illegal if Jews occupy land?

  227. 227 Tom D Ford
    July 2, 2008 at 18:49

    It occurs to me that these discussions can be used by certain parties to gauge how well their propaganda campaigns are working.

    In this case the talk is about Israel and Iran instead of Bush/Cheney/ PNAC and control of Irans Oil.

    Interesting.

  228. 228 Anis
    July 2, 2008 at 18:50

    Steve:
    What I wrote –
    Steve: How you draw your inferences totally baffles me. I would suggest that you use your brain and not heart to see what I have written. Let me also tell you that I have had some of my best friends among Jews, I respect Jews for their abilities, I feel sorry that they were handed out the worst that Europe could give to any thing living. I am not antisemitic but I sincerely want Israel to find a solution to the problem and not circumvent it. Shoving the problem under the carpet will only keep the Frankenstein alive. My last word on that will also be that Jews will gel with Muslims better than with Christians particularly the terrible European variety. History says so.

    You replied:

    @ Anis

    If you knew anything about History, Jews have always lived in Israel. LONG before Islam ever existed. Sorry if the facts aren’t good for your argument.

    My reply to you now is:
    Jews lived from Israel right up to present day Afghanistan. They dispersed over to Europe in the North and Africa in the South. That was from the time Moses appeared. That was almost 3800 years back from now? That is 2300 years before Islam. Not 1000 years as mentioned by you.

    In the entire Jewish history Muslims treated them the best compared to the treatments meted out to them by European crusaders in particular. Turkey, Morocco became haven for Jews. During Muslim rule in Spain Jews were very well treated till they were expelled by Spaniards. Baghdad was one of the best places for Jews and were given charge of many important offices including treasury. European Christians treated them like animals and were repeatedly massacred. Just because they were Jews. That is history (history says so) and that is what I quoted.

    I hope I have clarified to you now.

  229. 229 steve
    July 2, 2008 at 18:51

    If The Iranian President would lie about the existence of homosexuals in Iran, is it possible he might be lying about his nation’s nuclear ambitions as well?

  230. 230 Don R
    July 2, 2008 at 18:53

    Perhaps the need for Iran to have the means to produce a nuclear bomb would go if Israel signed the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and opened itself to a full IAEA inspection, just like Iran. Of course, Israel would have to get rid of its nuclear weapons in a verifiable manner and submit to regular IAEA inspections to confirm its non-nuclear status.

    Civil nuclear power for all countries that can pay could be monitored, again with IAEA supervision, through the open (to public scrutiny) supply of enriched uranium from the major nuclear powers.

  231. 231 steve
    July 2, 2008 at 18:55

    Israeli government is the main enemy of the Jewish people? I couldn’t even write what I want to here. That professor makes me want to vomit every time I listen to the filth coming out of his mouth.

  232. 232 Objective
    July 2, 2008 at 18:55

    Where is Ros Atkins? This moderator is HORRIBLE. You can hear his biases and he is extremely condescending towards certain participants.

    We need to have an OBJECTIVE moderator when discussing such tense world issues.

    Please replace him otherwise this fruitful forum will lose its credibility.

  233. 233 Dan
    July 2, 2008 at 18:55

    @ Machado
    Palestine NEVER existed as a state…N-E-V-E-R and the people there were from Jordan.
    King Hussein threw them out of Jordan as they caused chaos and mayhem almost igniting a civil war as they have done in every country that has extended a helping had and invited them in.
    Not one Arab Islamic country gives a damn about those Arabs that inhabit the West Bank & Gaza. They are pawns being used by Islamc Arabs to gain advantage over Israel.

  234. 234 Prashant: an Indian in Kuwait
    July 2, 2008 at 18:57

    No one seems to be talking about the real issue – there are vested interests on both sides who do NOT want this conflict to be solved. They want to demonize the other side – to leverage this perceived threat for political mileage.

    A perceived nuclear threat from Iran is the perfect fodder that politicians in Israel and US can leverage to mobilize public opinion and garner votes.

    The “demon state” of Israel is what the Iranian rulers and politicians use to sustain their political support base.

    So honestly, does anyone REALLY want to solve this conflict, except if course the ordinary men on both sides who are the real sufferers

  235. 235 steve
    July 2, 2008 at 18:57

    I have friends that are Iranian jews, who lived in Iran. They would punch that professor in the face for his lies about no antisemitism in Iran. It’s not bad like Nazi Germany, but Jews aren’t “free” there. Sure, he’ll mention there’s a Jewish MP in Iran. But gues what, say if he spoke in support of Israel, he would lose his job, so guess what he does? He’s very anti Israel. I bet he felt sick when the holocaust denial conferences were going on.

  236. 236 Dan
    July 2, 2008 at 18:59

    THANK YOU FOR A WONDERFUL SUBJECT THAT INSPIRED A GREAT DEBATE BUT ALSO ILLUMINATED THE IGNORANCE OF HISTORY THAT IS PERVASIVE THROUGHOUT THE WORLD.
    LOVED IT!!!

  237. 237 Michael in Portland
    July 2, 2008 at 19:02

    HOW CAN ANYONE BE RIGHT WHEN EVERYONE IS WRONG. If the guest are any representation of their governments, Iran and Isreal, their is little prospect for a peaceful resolution. If Isreal has the right to attach any nation it believes represents a threat to its security, then so does everyone other nation, including Iran. If Isreal has the right to actually possess nuclear weapons or allow the perception that Isreal has or may possess nuclear weapons, other nations also have this right, including Iran.

    If Iran does not allow the IAEA clear and open access to any facility or people whom IAEA believes can provide information information regarding its nuclear programs, then Iran is responsible for the perception that it represents a threat to other nations, including Isreal. If Iran government officials repeatedly makes hostile statements toward and about Isreal, Isreal has no choice but to view Iran as a threat to tis security. If Iran continues to finance and train groups which threats and/or actually attacks Isreal, Isreal has a right to defend itself by including Iran in its responses to such groups.

    The representatives of Isreal and Isreal are blinded by their loyalty to their country. The ruling powers of both countries behave like little children on a play ground. Children with dangerous weapons. Both countries threaten the health and welfare of the entire region and the world. Grow up. Neither country can be trusted with nuclear weapons. No country can be trusted with such weapons. Its not a matter of if such weapons will be used but when, by whom, under what justification. Can such a justification rationally exist ? I doubt it.

  238. 238 Shaun from Halifax
    July 2, 2008 at 19:07

    How can we hope to have any sort of rational dialogue when we can’t even get the players on the same page with regards to the ‘facts’?

    From what I heard, most if not all the speakers are educated, sane individuals. Yet it devolved into a yelling match and the winner was who could speak loudest over the other. It doesn’t make any sense to me that we can get several intelligent people together in an attempt to start a rational dialogue and end up with all parties more or less viewing the others with complete scorn and disrespect. How in God’s name (whichever god you worship) will they EVER get ANYTHING done about this situation if they can’t even come to a consensus in a hypothetical, freedom-of-speech setting?

  239. 239 mehrnaz
    July 2, 2008 at 19:11

    I asked this question but was not given time to come on air. Mir from Israel said that under Khatami this situation would not have arisen. In fact it was under Khatami and with the approval of Ayattolah Khomeini that Iran sent a letter to the US administration in 2003 in which in return for US agreeing with Iran having a peace nuclear energy programme fully monitored internally and recognition of Iran’s security right, Iran offered to accept the Saudi initiative, that is a two state solution, that is recognition of Israel, as well as influencing Hamas and Hezbollah to curb their hostile activities outside the occupied territories and for Hezbollah to become a political organisation. This offer was ignored by the US and the Swiss Ambassador was was censored as the emissary. It was at that time that Iran was ascribed to the “Axis of Evil”. This was well before Ahmadi Nedjad came to power. It was this hostility towards Iran that was instrumental in bringing in a hardline government. Why was that offer of peace rejected, Mr Amir and other Israeli friends? Not just then, the offer of accepting the Saudi initiative if it is accepted by Palestinians has been put forth since by Iran, but has been ignored by Israel. Is this not an indication that Israeli state does not seek peace with Iran, regardless of Israeli citizens who are as much a victim of NeoConservative expansionism as Iranians and Palestinians and Iraqis? Let us live together, if Iran is attacked, Israel would have no chance of surviving in the region or Israelis in the world. It would create such a sea of hatred and outrage that would drown us all together.

  240. 240 nelsoni
    July 2, 2008 at 19:11

    I dont how how many of you guys listened to today’s WHYS’s debate online today. I must say i was not impressed with the quality of the moderation or the quality of the the debate. Every one just strayed from the main objective of the Discussion. I could hardly believe I have listening to a WHYS debate for which i have to make sacrifice to listen.
    <>
    Ros,Chloe, Maddy ,Where are you guys?

  241. 241 R Machado
    July 2, 2008 at 19:19

    @ Steve

    That very weak argument enabled the creation of Kosovo.

    I, as a Brazilian, recognize the existence of Palestine. Ask everyone in the world and you are going to be surprised that most of the people also do. People recognize the existence of Palestine, as well as the existence of Israel.

    The problem is not the invasion of Palestine by the arabs. The real problem is the confiscation of the properties of the palestine families. Millions of palestines are exiled because of that. Israeli families occupy their land, new cities have been built over their land. This is the real problem. It was not caused by the arab invasion, but by the israeli confiscation.

  242. 242 steve
    July 2, 2008 at 19:23

    @ Machado

    Do you have those same sentiments for Jews expelled from muslim lands and lost their homes as well? There are just as many Jewish refugees from muslim countries as there are Palestinian refuges. Are you suggesting that the Palestinian future state has to be judenrein? It’s funny how people say that Israel is an apartheid state, yet demand that Palestine must be 100% free of Jews. It makes me laugh.

    Oh one more thing, In the middle east, it’s an existential battle of survival. Shouldn’t you be more worried about the Brazilian police killing homeless kids in Favelas? OR does something about the Jews ring so hard with you that you gotta focus on this?

  243. 243 selena
    July 2, 2008 at 19:34

    @Steve

    “Would you want a street person, who shouts at themselves, smells like urine, to have a firearm?”

    I would give this person a firearm before I would give one to some of the people debating the issue today. 🙂

  244. 244 R Machado
    July 2, 2008 at 19:37

    @ Steve

    I do have the same sentiments for everyone who was expelled from their homes, and I’m also worried about Brazil’s problems.
    The fact that I’m a Brazilian does not oblige me to agree with the mistakes of the Brazilian governments.
    I have a lot of jewish friends, and my nephews are jew. I have a profound respect and admiration for the jewish culture, but I cannot agree with what is wrong.

  245. 245 selena
    July 2, 2008 at 19:39

    @Michael

    HOW CAN ANYONE BE RIGHT WHEN EVERYONE IS WRONG.

    Good question!

    I guess none is right though we all think we are. Some of us know this and others will never know.

    That is why we continue to believe all the group rhetoric put out there by those who have their own agenda, which isn’t peace.

  246. 246 Luz María from Mexico
    July 2, 2008 at 19:47

    @Selena

    Brilliant comment about hate!

    About your questions:
    “In my view we should take a good hard look at why we hate…
    What kind if energy does it take to hate? What does hating do to the hater?”

    I cannot answer your questions completely, it is a difficult one. However, I think hate anhiliates the spirit and clouds the minds of those who have it. It is a terrible waste of energy because it does not resolve any problem, on the contrary, make them more difficult to solve.

    I know it is difficult, for us humans, not to hate someone or something that threaten us or harm us. But if we really take the time to think of what we can accomplish without hating each other, even in difficult cases where we completely disagree in our views, opinions, beliefs, etc., we will be amazed with the results.

    Sorry to say this, but there is so much hatred in our world, the Israel and Iran conflict is only one example. And sadly, some comments in this blog show the same.

  247. 247 haider meghjee
    July 2, 2008 at 20:01

    hi steve
    there was no israel before 1947 (as per your comment that there was no palestine before 1947) israel has every right to exist so does palestine side by side peacefully.
    israel has the right to nuclear weapons for self defence iran has the same right for self defence.
    moslems and jews have lived peacefully before and can manage the same in the future.you should read uri anveri’s ( a jewish writer and a israeli citizen) article mohamads sword.
    the only thing a war achieves is more hatred.
    haider

  248. 248 steve
    July 2, 2008 at 20:10

    @ Haider

    There was an Israel prior to 1948, it just hasn’t existed for a while, as other people moved in. The Romans ended things for the Jews after the Bar Kochba revolt. To say that there was never an Israel before 1948 makes me wonder why you would say such a thing.

  249. July 2, 2008 at 20:12

    @ Luz María from Mexico,
    Thanks for your comment about hatred. I think this blog shouldn’t be a forum to show gratuitous hatred and derision towards comments one doesn’t agree upon.

    Sincerely, I consider the comments you post on this blog among the wisest and the most balanced.

    It will be better to keep at least reserved about ideas one doesn’t agree with rather than lash out at them without reserve.

    As you said, the conflict between Israel and Iran is just the iceberg of the existing conflicts around the world, which have generated not long ago in different kinds of genocide at al large and small scales

  250. 250 haider meghjee
    July 2, 2008 at 20:24

    hi steve
    there were jewish people christian people and moslem people
    but there was no israel before 1947 as per your comment that there was no palestine before 1947.
    haider

  251. 251 selena
    July 2, 2008 at 20:25

    @Dan

    History is written by those in power. History is always being revised to suit the dictates of the time.

    What has history got to do with the right of all people to live in peace?

  252. 252 steve
    July 2, 2008 at 20:29

    @ Haider

    Wrong again. There was in Israel before Christianity and Islam even existed. Remember, Judaism is over 1000 years older than Islam is. Probably closer to 1500 years older.

  253. 253 selena
    July 2, 2008 at 20:34

    @Mark

    Thank you for today’s show. I believe it did more to further the cause of understanding than any show to date.

    You can be certain some people on all sides are rethinking their positions on this divisive subject.

    I have had calls from people who said that they appreciated the opportunity to listen to a conversation such as this first hand. They said they wouldn’t call it a debate. It seemed like a kitchen table conversation that could be the first of many.

  254. 254 selena
    July 2, 2008 at 20:36

    @ Steve

    Let’s go back to when God created Adam and Eve and, armed with my family tree, I will go and grab my bit of land. 🙂

  255. 255 haider meghjee
    July 2, 2008 at 20:52

    hi steve
    i agree that judaism was before christianity and islam.
    but there was no israel before 1947 as per yor comment that there was no palestine before 1947.your comment was that the romans messed it up for the jews.the other side of the argument is that the british messed it up for the palestinians.my aim is for you to understand both sides of the argument .peace will only be achieved when both sides understand each other and share the beautiful land.
    haider

  256. 256 Des Currie
    July 2, 2008 at 20:54

    If Israel would like to make God laugh they should tell him their future plans.
    And I suspect he would be amused at Iran’s take as well.
    Des Currie

  257. 257 steve
    July 2, 2008 at 20:58

    @ Haider

    I would then advise you to get a history book and read it. There were two main Jewish kingdoms, Israel and Judah, that existed many years ago, which was before 1947. “Share the beautiful land” means one state solution, destroying israel. Can’t win on the battlefield so gotta destroy it other ways, eh?

  258. 258 haider meghjee
    July 2, 2008 at 21:07

    hi steve
    read carefully
    i said side by side two state solution.
    read my comments again please.
    israel has every right to exist
    so does palestine
    please read these lines carefully before you respond
    haider

  259. 259 AFB
    July 2, 2008 at 22:12

    The conflict between Iran and Israel (and the US) is completely artificial. The radicialisation of Iran against the West is purely a product of the isolation policy and the prior relationship between the US and Iran (and quite possibly inherited from the British after WWI) during the time of the Shah and the interventionist policies US took to avoid coalition governments with the Iranian Communist Party. 30 years of reactionary US reaction to the Islamic Revolution created this problem.

    The Iranian people are as manipulated by their political and cultural leaders as are the Israelis who have also had decades of acculturation to demonize Palestinians and Iranians. I would be very suspect of Israeli government “intelligence” that says Iran will have a nuclear bomb by 2009. The UN obviously did not think so, as do many other scholars on the subject. We already know about the credibility of “intelligence” from this Israelo-Amero AIPAC Military Cabal. BTW the US media political discourse machine, like the Israeli one, is also real good at sowing fear, trepidation and demonization despite the best efforts of the Founding Fathers to write a system that would not make such totalitarian fascist Georgian discourse possible in their Utopian dream for the USA.

    Of course the Rhetoric in Iran is anti-US and Israel, because of the vehement communications policies in both countries against Iran. What else would a leader, propped up by Ultra-Conservative Right Wing Neo-cons say to his people? What exactly does George Bush say in the US to incite his own people and to make them think he has their back from attack? This is exactly the dynamic at work in Iran which is a Persian nation surrounded by Imperialist Arabs who dominated them and converted them to Islam from Zoroastrianism centuries ago. So, of course they have to stir up some kind of Nationalism against enemies all around because they too have been under attack for their land and natural resources.

    Americans and Israelis will have to wake up soon, or face a great great destruction unleashed by their own fear, reactionary moves, and failure at negotiating the situation correctly. It is quite clear that destabilization of the already unstable situation will spell economic disaster for Americans at home, American troops on the ground in Iraq, and supply chains for oil for the whole of the so call developed consuming world. I really don’t expect Israelis to wake up soon given the religious right in their country which wields so much power and prejudice of the situation, who only use the self-referential Jewish written bible as their source of all information and insight into how to get along in the world, and who have created a terrible fascist communications situation. The Americans I expect are going to get jolted into something soon and will throw off some shackles of the old ruling elites who think they can still play these mind media control tricks in November.

    Otherwise, Ahmedinejad will be seen as prescient in his predictions about how long these two Nations can last in their military and economic hold on so much of the world, which would be a shame.

  260. 260 haider meghjee
    July 2, 2008 at 22:29

    hi selena
    adam and eve are your grand parents
    they were the first ones on this earth.
    so you are entitled to own the whole earth.
    but remember adam and eve are also steve’s and my grand parents so we have to share the earth. but steve does not understand this.
    bye
    haider

  261. 261 steve
    July 2, 2008 at 22:43

    @ Haider, so if the earth belongs to everyone, why are Jews apparently not allowed to live in the Palestinian territories? BTW, My grandparents are not Adam and Eve, my grandparents actually existed.

  262. 262 haider meghjee
    July 2, 2008 at 22:56

    hi steve
    that comment was a joke
    on the lite side meant to be funny
    did you just say palestinian territories
    so you accept the palestinian territories
    if the land is purchased legally from the palestinians they can stay
    (legally not forcefully)
    when there is real and just peace jews will reside peacefully side by side with the palestinians as equal partners.
    haider

  263. 263 steve/oregon
    July 2, 2008 at 23:19

    There can be no peace when muslims and jews have to live side by side. I have seen first hand the (not even “fanatical” muslims) will fight to the end and die because “allah” will reward them. (or watever reason is behind it.)
    in my opinion the West needs to go in to the WHOLE middle east and disolve all countries and put some banners up. If you want to be jewish go to banner X, if you wanna be sunni etc etc then just let them have at it and kill eachother those that do not want to fight can build a home and a life.
    Those that do will kill each other, and some innocent people also. When it is all said and done is anything accomplished towards peace or reconciling differances? No prolly not but atleast most of the people who had the desire for war are dead.

    on a side note anyone who wants the removal of all nuclear weapons is just as irraitional as someone who says that dieing for 72 virgins is irrational. As a American I would protest the disarming of my country with my personal weapons.
    America has used nuclear weapons b4 yes and i am proud of that fact of all the nations that have them we showed we are not afraid to use them. In my opinion America is the top dog WE ARE BIGGER THAN YOU STRONGER AND THAN YOU. For those of you who might not be familar with this philosophy its called survival of the fittest and it worked great for millions of years before countries were even formed.

  264. 264 Ezhdeha
    July 2, 2008 at 23:48

    @Steve/Oregon

    wow….. Thanks for beefing up the stereotype that Americans are pushy, put their nose in everyones business in the name of oil… I mean democracy war mongers. You do this country proud.

  265. 265 Roberto
    July 3, 2008 at 00:17

    Iran’s leader never called for force to destroy Israel militarily. The correct translation of the entire text Azmejinidan (sp?) he was referring to the demographic reality that in a true democratic outcome of a vote in Israel and the occupied territories there would be no exclusively Jewish state as we know it.
    ——————————————————————————————————

    ——– Brilliant!

    Except: 60 yrs of history has proven that in a true democratic outcome of the vote in Palestinian territories there has never been a Palestinian state thus far in spite of the UN/US/EU holding their hands and trying to lead them to internationally recognized statehood.

    The TRUE democratic reality is that Palestinians could have their very own Islamic state, ZERO Jews left in Palestine BTW and barely a handful of Christians, but they don’t want any kind of state and never have wanted a TRUE Islamic Palestinian state.

    The Israelis have had hundreds of elections since 1948. Palestinians, what, maybe less than a handful if that many?

    Unless you want to count Jordan which is ruled by non Palestinians at the top levels.

    Tell you what Doc, how’s about we have a vote on Pakistan formed in the same time frame as Israel, carved out of India. Think The Islamic Republic of Pakistan would even exist if a billion Indians got to cast their votes?

    Get back to me on that one Doc.

  266. 266 hass
    July 3, 2008 at 00:18

    Got over it – ancient Israel is no justification for a bunch of people from Russia or Brooklyn to go to Palestine, kill and steal other people’s land there.

    According to the NEW YORK TIMES:

    Abraham, the Jewish patriarch, probably never existed. Nor did Moses. The entire Exodus story as recounted in the Bible probably never occurred. The same is true of the tumbling of the walls of Jericho. And David, far from being the fearless king who built Jerusalem into a mighty capital, was more likely a provincial leader whose reputation was later magnified to provide a rallying point for a fledgling nation.

    Read more:
    http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D04EFDF1E30F93AA35750C0A9649C8B63

  267. July 3, 2008 at 05:08

    @ Hass,

    Yes you’re right, all basis for the existence of the State of Israel crumbles before the stipulations of a scribbler from the NEW YORK TIMES!!!

    I do not understand all these attacks on Israel. Why are there so many effectively clamoring for Israeli blood? Haven’t they had enough? The history of the Jewish people is filled with tragedy.

    And now when they earned through their blood a small state of their own, taking in thousands from all over the world, they are the agents of evil and bringers of tyranny?

    Why ally yourselves with the cause of extremist Muslims who will stop at nothing to destroy us and condemn a stable, wealthy, Western-style democracy in the Middle East?

    I am sure attitudes of those who condemn Israel now would change if only for a moment they lived in terror-stricken parts of Israel. Those attacks are not brought about by the actions of Israel, but its very existance.

  268. July 3, 2008 at 05:14

    @ Prince Pieray C. P. Odor

    “I am wondering why it is not right for the governments of the world that are certainly terrorised by the almighty world power etc.”

    Would you be kind enough to answer a question from a previous topic:

    When will you stop vociferously condemning other states when your own is in disarray? Is it that vast conspiracy of Western imprialists who is bothering Nigeria to take its rightful place among the industrialized nations? Or is it perhaps the corruption and ineptitude of its ruling class?

    -Admiral-Vice Count Ackbar, Supreme Commander Rebel Alliance Fleet in the Outer Rim Territories

    Mon Calamari

  269. 269 Syed Hasan Turab
    July 3, 2008 at 05:25

    The way Iranian nation is united & ready to fight sound like proven desaster for US army in Afghanistan & Iraq. Iranian interseption might repeat histry of Stalan grad in the immediate region.
    Algezira reporting & over two thousand Grave’s for foreign invasion reflect an immage of WW. I dont know what Jewish Counsil is forcasting. Any way Iranian nation sound like sacrifice for Nation of Iran & rest of the Muslim World.
    Presance of Richerd Boucher in Pakistan sound like hesitation of USA & future of US army along with presance of US Navy in Persion Gulf.

  270. July 3, 2008 at 06:04

    Hi Dan

    You probably heard the debate last night. It certainly put things into perspective. What do you think.
    Did you see the commentary by Adm Mike Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. What is the likelihood of US or Israeli military action!

  271. 271 Mark Duwe Indiana, USA
    July 3, 2008 at 08:22

    Hate and Fear comes from ideology. I agree with Steve about irresponsibility. Also, the last time there was a war and nuclear weapons were used, we used every single one we had. Now, Israel alone has many times that power. They may have the pwer ro kill every living thing on Earth all by themselves.

    http://cns.miis.edu/research/wmdme/israel.htm

    Here’s a bit of it…
    Sophisticated nuclear weapons program with an estimated 100-200 weapons, which can be delivered by ballistic missiles or aircraft.
    Approximately 50 Jericho-2 missiles with 1,500km range and 1,000kg payload, nuclear warheads may be stored in close proximity.
    Approximately 50-100 Jericho-1 missiles with 500-1,000km range and 500kg payload.
    Gabriel-4 anti-ship cruise missile with 200km range and 500kg payload.
    Harpoon anti-ship cruise missile with 120km range and 220kg payload.
    Alleged Popeye Turbo air-launched cruise missile with 200-300km range and unknown payload.

    There is more including a biological and chemical program.

    We should hope that Israel doesn’t get too paranoid.

  272. 272 David
    July 3, 2008 at 09:32

    There will never be peace in the Middle East until Israel returns the land it stole and refrains from building on the lands owed by the Palestinians, Israel must remember it is the only westernised type country in the middle of an Arab region, therefore it must behave it’s self and respect it’s neighbours, it makes me so angry when the Israelises quote they have the right to be there because it say so in the Bible, yet it also say’s in the bible love thee neighbour and turn the other cheek, show kindness unto others and they will show kindness unto you, but because they (Israel) know they have the backing of the Americans they become too big headed, like the little guy at school with big friends.
    The nuclear situation is not really a problem, Iran, if, yes if eventually has nuclear weapons it’s never going to use them, specially on it’s neighbours, it would be the end of Iran, now Israel as nuclear weapons, but fails to comply with all UN resolutions, fails to let inspectors check the facilities, there should be no reason whatsoever to have one country having nuclear weapons and telling others they should not, what is good for the goose is good for the gander. only Israel can start to make the peace, it must be careful, for if it pushes it ‘s neighbours too many times, they may join together then no one will be able to stop them and Israel will be no more.

  273. 273 Bryan
    July 3, 2008 at 11:14

    Susan July 2, 2008 at 6:48 pm

    “I’m tired of the world always expecting little Israel to solve its problems. A nuclear Iran is a threat also to Europe, and yet Europe sits on its hands, quietly sending diplomatic messages that an Israeli strike would be welcome, hoping Israel will take care of this as it took care of the Osirak reactor in Iraq. This is nonsense. It’s time for Europe to stand up and take responsibility for itself, instead of constantly asking Israel to do the dirty work.”

    Hear, hear.

    mehrnaz July 2, 2008 at 7:11 pm

    “Why was that [Saudi] offer of peace rejected, Mr Amir and other Israeli friends?”

    Because it required Israel to withdraw to indefensible boundaries? I notice you didn’t say anything about that. And I’m sure you wont mention the fact that Saudi Arabia is yet another nation that sponsors terror against Israeli civilians by paying the families of Palestinian suicide bombers large sums of money for their atrocious attacks on Israelis. And you portray the Saudis as honest peace brokers?

    Rashid Patch July 2, 2008 at 4:59 pm

    You provide an excellent example of anti-Israel propaganda:

    “Not only does Israel have nuclear weapons, but Israeli politicians and leaders have threatened to use them against every one of it’s neighbors. Israeli pundits have routinely threatened to destroy Mecca and Medina, the holiest shrines of Islam. they have threatened to use nuclear weapons against European cities.
    With conventional weapons, Israel has seized and continues to occupt territory of every one of it’s neighbor nations.”

    These are, of course, all lies. You should provide links to back up your allegations. But you can’t do that because it would expose your propaganda sources for all to see.

    Perhaps you would like to tell us exactly what land belonging to Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon is occupied by Israel.

    Anis July 2, 2008 at 5:13 pm

    You have to be careful when trying to demonstrate how the Jews control the world that you don’t weaken your case by including Jewish writers from anti-Israel publications in your list:

    “Max Frankel, New York Times
    Joseph Lelyyeld, New York Times
    Katherine Graham, Washington Post
    Henry Grunwald, Time Magazine
    Eugene Meyer, Washington Post
    Barbara Walters ABC News
    Wolf Blitzer, CNN”

    I also note that by far the majority of the Jewish politicians you list are from the Democratic Party. Maybe you should consider why that is the case. You have done a fine job of arguing against yourself.

    Isn’t it funny how if the Jews control the world they can’t establish a homeland more substantial than the tiny Israel, the size and shape of a toothpick compared to the vast Arab lands around it, and even so still keep on slicing bits and pieces off it to give to the Arabs?

    kareem Brown July 2, 2008 at 6:02 pm

    “Is it the case that Israel too, like the US, has an agenda of expansionism and foreign aggressive policy that can be carried out through scaremongering, and mobilising the population of Israel through non-existent terror?”

    Mason July 2, 2008 at 6:20 pm

    “Israel has proven time and again since its founding that it is an aggressive, expansionist country.”

    Right, Israel must be the only country on earth that expresses its “agenda of expansionism” and shows “that it is an aggressive, expansionist country,” by reducing the size of its territory.

    And, “non-existent terror” against Israel? A statement like that is not even worthy of a response.

    Muhammed July 2, 2008 at 6:17 pm

    “If Israel attacks IRAN’S NUCLEAR PLANTS then IRAN should wipe Israel off the map if it has the millitary capability to do it.”

    The point, of course, is that Iran wants to destroy Israel whatever Israel does or does not do. The mere fact of Israel’s existence is what is so unbearable to the Moslem world. The Nazis, of course, had exactly the same obscene attitude towards the Jews.

    selena July 2, 2008 at 6:29 pm

    “@Steve

    Just listen to the debate(?).

    How sad it is!

    When no one listens there is no chance for change.

    The young lady is not making the case for Israel any better.

    Many of us grew up without extended families. That does not give special rights.”

    You should mention that Anat from Israel said that her relatives were killed in the Holocaust. This is obviously especially relevant to this debate since Ahmedinejad is an anti-Semite who hosted a Holocaust denial conference and wants to destroy the Jewish people. I am amazed that you could make such a shallow observation as in your last two statements.

  274. July 3, 2008 at 13:18

    International observers are disagreeeon the point that israel will not strike on Iranian nuvlear programm.
    According to them it has been settled between the parties concerned.

    Bush administration at any cost want iran disarmed nuclearly.they can not tolrate iran become nuclear power.
    if iran is succssed in its mission Israeli security come at serious risk as Iranian president has said on different times.

    What is the solution of this probllem?
    what kind of rule should league of nations in this regard?
    whether war or attack that is expected can be stopted?
    Any one able to concilliation?

    Very hard questions as abovementioned.

    As for as my views are concerned in this complicated atmosphere I come to the conclusion that five world power has not still touched the point to whch Iran has desire.

    No fdoubt, incentive is attaractive as presented by the united states and other its partners and the same is being considered and hope is that negotiation may stsrt on the issue.

    But the real issue is that United States and other its allies are not ready providing security/guaranttee of palestine and Hezbullah for the Israeli aggression.

    And on the other way of supervision,as united states has set for is unacceptable to Iran because,according to them in this way Iranian soveriety has badly been deteriorating.

    It is my minde,Israel will attack on the nuclear intallation,but it will be more dengrous and America would would fail in its objectives.

  275. 275 Anis
    July 3, 2008 at 13:19

    Bryan: You make me wonder if you need a response to your silly remarks. The list posted by me was only to show that there you have so many people to influence administration of any hue in favour of any specific beneficiary. In this case Israel. By including in the list democrats does not mean I have been talking about only Republicans as the influencing group. All Americans are the same – like Oliver Twist and other children were to Fagin. White House has a crook sitting on top. His assistant is another crook, a blackmailer. You cannot compare your selves to any other country in the World. Wicked thrive in USA.

  276. 276 steve
    July 3, 2008 at 13:21

    @ Anis

    I’m curious, what should be done about these influential jews. Clearly you think there are too many. Should jews not be allowed to vote? What is your solution to this problem of “substantial Jewish Influence”. Should there perhaps be laws limiting the number of Jews that can be elected to office or appointed to positions of power?

    Any other groups that you think shouldn’t have power as well?

  277. 277 Anis
    July 3, 2008 at 13:47

    Hullo. Steve! You are back today with your same old purpose – meaningless scream. None of what you think should be done is my suggestion. I have no suggestion at all. I made a statement to say that Jews are ruling America by proxy and that is getting proven. Of course they must vote, they must be ahead of others and if they can, influence people in the administration. My view is they do not influence any more. They are already the rulers by proxy.

    If you want to know about anti semitism, you should look elsewhere. You scratch the skin of every European and their droppings in USA, you will find anti semitism in their blood. Learn from the crusaders’ history – Jews were particularly targeted, their women raped and men and children killed. Mind you Jews were targeted.

    So if you are worried about anti semitism, anti Israel etc. try to help resolve the Israel issue instead of looking for Iran as a scapegoat. Jews will have to live with Muslims only and the best course will be to make Muslims friends. Take an advice and even help from people like Nelson Mandela and do not get guided by your crooked White House occupants. Imagine a friendly neighbourhood around Israel with people not requiring to carry any visa to travel any place of their choice. That land will become a heaven. In that case you can be sure to be targeted again by those marauders from North.

    You still have the right to believe in your crappy logic that you are pouring out. My last word to you. It is nice to see you back today. I may not be available for long today but may join you again tomorrow.

  278. 278 steve
    July 3, 2008 at 13:55

    @ Anis

    You’re the one that claims that only Europeans and Americans be be antisemites. Then you say the jews have too much power and control the USA, then you come up with lists of Jews in positions of power, and have the nerve to say you aren’t an antisemite.

    You say Jews have too much power. What should be done to limit their power? How about answer the question?

  279. 279 Anis
    July 3, 2008 at 14:09

    Steve: You are an unfriendly person with absolute hate filled nonsense in your head. People like you do not look for opportunity to resolve but squabble or fight. Perhaps you have that will and determination to carry on. I am no longer in debate with you. Good bye.

    Why do you want to limit the power of Jews? Who wants to do so? You? Not me. Let them rule USA and drag USA to fight Iran. That is my answer and please do not send any more msgs addressed to me. I will not be replying to you any more.

  280. 280 Dr. Will Ware
    July 3, 2008 at 14:18

    I am really curious about the censorship mechanism of this blog.

    Any entries suggesting that Israel might actually have to behave itself to earn the peace we so desparately want for it seem to be censored.

    Censors, please identify yourselves and state your bias plainly so that those of us who enjoy two sided debates might have tthe option to switch to other forums.

  281. 281 selena
    July 3, 2008 at 14:19

    I have to run for an appointment and will be gone for the day.

    Bryan, I will catch you later and

    Steve asked ” What’s to be done about influential Jews?”

    Simple… nothing to be done, except, instead of screaming antisemitic every time someone points out the obvious, admit that Jews are influential and that anyone influential will support their own cause. . .

    Jews are smart, hard workers and are in high places worldwide.

    It is a fact! Accept it and then scrutinize all the decisions they make because they are human.

  282. 282 Bryan
    July 3, 2008 at 14:21

    Anis July 3, 2008 at 1:19 pm

    “All Americans are the same.” So you have no answer to my points except to make ridiculous comments? I pointed out that in your eagerness to prove Jewish control over everything you argued against yourself. Now you have no defence against that point? Do you imagine Time Magazine or the New York Times or Wolf Blitzer of CNN are defenders of Israel and part of some “Jewish lobby?”

    Anis July 3, 2008 at 1:47 pm

    Imagine a friendly neighbourhood around Israel with people not requiring to carry any visa to travel any place of their choice.

    Yes, those benevolent Muslim friends of the Jews. I suppose you would like us to believe that the terror regime of Saudi Arabia will welcome Jewish tourists from a unified “Palestine” when no Jews are allowed to set foot in Saudi Arabia lest they contaminate its soil. You are either living in cloud cuckoo land or you are being devious. I suspect the latter.

  283. 283 steve
    July 3, 2008 at 14:26

    @ Anis

    Good riddance.

  284. 284 steve
    July 3, 2008 at 14:28

    @ Selena

    Anis said this :Fortunately, America is being ruled by proxy by Jews. This Jew control is so intense that Obama had to promise that he will protect Israel if he becomes President. This promise is like unwritten constitution of USA.

    How on earth can you tell me that isn’t antisemitic? You say Jews are influential, and that’s fine. He says the jews CONTROL america. The jews RULE america. “The Jew control”. Are you going to sit there after reading his words that it isn’t antisemitic. READ IT! “This Jew control is so intense that Obama had to promise that he will protect Israel if he becomes President.”

  285. 285 Mark Sandell
    July 3, 2008 at 14:44

    Right, first off some of these entries are way too long. Some of them are also abusive – please remind yourselves of the rules of the blog (again !) and Dr Ware – what has been “censored” ? The moderators are the WHYS team and some members of the WHYS community. See the blog rules – if an entry transgressed those (too long, offensive, off topic etc etc) then they should not be posted. We don’t not post things because of any opinion either way.

  286. 286 Anis
    July 3, 2008 at 15:10

    @Selena: Jews are smart, hard workers and are in high places worldwide.
    It is a fact! Accept it and then scrutinize all the decisions they make because they are human.

    Absolutely right, I have suggested nothing against it. What I have said is that they are the driving force behind anti Muslim, anti Iran America. This is my view. I do not understand how this statement is anti semitic.

    I suspect you Jews are in a position to send out any message to the world and expect people to take that quietly. Blaming others of being anti semitic seems to fetch you some kind of bonus from America or Europe by way of extra sympathy and support like ‘dole’ and extra munition to fight Muslims. Today it may be your time but remember it may not last for ever. You will be booked sooner or later. Not by anti semitists but by those you are denying their legitimate rights. Muslims are not anti semitists.

    To Bryan:
    About Saudi, let me tell you that I feel even many Muslims will like to keep away from visiting that country because of their extreme laws. Why on Earth would you want to visit SA? Because they do not want you there? There are a whole host of places available there. Don’t tell me you feel unsafe in Turkey? That Turks are unfriendly? Do you?

    Wolf Blitzer and other Jewish correspondents may not be in a position to directly interfere but in many ways they can turn things around in favour of Israel and against Iran. Do not tell me they balance their attitudes when it comes to treating Palestinians or Iranian issues. You must be crazy to suggest anything like that. If you are trying to say all those Jews are sitting quietly talking about food and fertiliser when USA is talking about destruction of Iran, you are being devious, absolutely. Keep your conscience in place. I do not expect from you all at all.

  287. 287 Syed Hasan Turab
    July 3, 2008 at 15:12

    From Iranian Atomic abilities only Isriel pose a fearness on the other hand from Isrieli Atomic abilities all Middle East is under fire.
    To achieve the peace why not we disarm Isriel?

  288. July 3, 2008 at 15:36

    @ Syed Hasan Turab

    “To achieve the peace why not we disarm Isriel?”

    We because if we “disarm Isriel”, they’s going to be a repeat of the Holocaust, that’s why.

  289. 289 Tino
    July 3, 2008 at 15:58

    “Absolutely right, I have suggested nothing against it. What I have said is that they are the driving force behind anti Muslim, anti Iran America. This is my view. I do not understand how this statement is anti semitic.”

    Have to completely disagree here. Any anti Muslim sentiment is due to them BLOWING THINGS UP CONSTANTLY. Why does everyone try to make this more complicated? I never gave Muslims a second thought until they started blowing things up (tons of military targets, embassies, 1993 WTC, 9/11, etc). Then I read the Quran and was horrified. It has nothing to do with Jews, could you even suggest how they manage to do this?

    “Muslims are not anti semitists.”

    Their Quran would beg to differ.

    “Do not tell me they balance their attitudes when it comes to treating Palestinians or Iranian issues.”

    Youre right, they outright condemn the Israelis and constantly try to eliminate blame from the Palestinians, do you even read the news? Recently on BBC: Water crisis in gaza, cement trucks finally allowed in, etc etc. Of course there was that whole bulldozer rampage thing, but those bad Israelis, they built a big fence….please.

  290. 290 steve
    July 3, 2008 at 15:59

    @ Anis

    Nice to know there is one collective Jew mind, and we are behind the anti Muslim anti Iran drive in the west. Next time we burn Iranian flags and shout “death to Iran” you know it’s our fault.

    You prove my point each and every time, with your hatred your accusations,and you have the nerve to call other people bigots. Absolutely hilarious.

  291. 291 Tom D Ford
    July 3, 2008 at 16:25

    @ Steve/Oregon July 2, 2008 at 11:19 pm

    “…In my opinion America is the top dog WE ARE BIGGER THAN YOU STRONGER AND THAN YOU. For those of you who might not be familar with this philosophy its called survival of the fittest and it worked great for millions of years before countries were even formed.”

    A three year old in his supercape, and throwing a loud tantrum.

  292. July 3, 2008 at 16:52

    @ Steve,
    “Anis” is an Arabic word which means companion. I think you and Anis have been keeping a long company on this page.

    To me the biggest threat facing the world is the lack of mutual understanding on the part of people of different persuasions.

    Imagine what the world will be if there weren’t the current diversity of thoughts. Man by nature likes to fight, one way or another. There are ,for example, sports,and war of words. But the worst of it all are wars leading to bloodshed and destruction.

    The world will be a better place without people who think either you kill or you will be killed. It needs people with sport spirit in which everyone plays by the rule. Of course that’s a surreal ideal!

  293. 293 Bryan
    July 3, 2008 at 17:12

    Anis July 3, 2008 at 3:10 pm

    “I do not understand how this statement is anti semitic,”

    says Anis and then proceeds to prove his/her antisemitism:

    “I suspect you Jews are in a position to send out any message to the world and expect people to take that quietly.”

    Yes, “you Jews.” You obviously can’t help yourself. Steve had you identified very early on in this discussion. And as Tino pointed out, if CNN is part of some pro-Israel lobby, then I’m an Eskimo.

    But there is a grain of truth in what you say. Israelis and other Jews were responsible for many internet inventions. So next time you sit down at your keyboard, be aware that you are a victim of a conspiracy to hypnotise people through their monitors into supporting Israel.

    “Don’t tell me you feel unsafe in Turkey?” Turkey is perfectly safe, except when they are blowing up synagogues.

  294. July 3, 2008 at 18:01

    Can Iran Provide Guarantees to Warrant Ceasefire!

    TEHRAN – European foreign policy chief Javier Solana is still advising talks with Iran, even though his recent trip to Tehran achieved nothing. The EU Council ratified sanctions against Iran and endorsed an ‘intervention’ clause on June 23rd. Britain is supporting a ceasefire with Tehran although other European states are lukewarm to these propositions.
    Can Iran convince the world that it wants peace? Can Iran return to the civil agenda and guarantee civil rights for its citizens? Outrage at the US hostage affair thirty years ago persist. This is just one instance while there are plenty of other cases today where atrocities and violations of civil rights in Iran are being perpetrated. Incarceration of Roger Cooper, British author and literary figure, the fate of the German, the Frenchman, hacking to death Zahra Kazemi the Iranian born Canadian journalist, the Chain Murder Case, Tehran University Dormitory Attacks, imprisonment and torture of scores of journalists even now, and political activists is another instance. What of constant harassment of the public and the reign of terror in Iran? Europe wants guarantees that Tehran can put an end to thuggery or cloak and dagger tactics, will they be forthcoming?
    Admiral Mike Mullen, chairman of US Joint Chiefs of Staff, advised caution on US or Israeli military action on Tuesday, but why? The same strategy of provocation which led to war with Iraq is being used on Israel.
    Is there any positive sign from Tehran to warrant a conciliatory attitude by US and Europe! Elsewhere, the profligacy of prelates has left the nation bankrupt. They receive vast sums through an intricate system of tithes in lieu of income tax, and through countless endowments, trusts and foundations. We can’t afford it any longer. Feeding and housing 500,000 prelates is too much. It has depleted national coffers. Worse still, constant bickering and polemic on edicts and judgment is making a farce of the law and law enforcement. Pandemonium and controversy abound in the judiciary.
    Digging out former foreign minister Ali Akbar Velayati, guilty of complicity in murder of Kurds in the Mykonos Case, is one solution, but the bloodthirsty regime in Tehran must climb down and pledge to carry out international statutes and safeguard civil rights. US President George Bush says all options are still on the table, and sooner rather than later, his European allies will grant him the go-ahead as a token sign of respect for an outgoing president, unless….

  295. 295 Dr. Will Ware
    July 3, 2008 at 19:09

    If you want to hear a bald faced lie, how about “a land without a people for a people without a land.”

    Or how about “we did not drive (800,000 Palestinians from their) homes. They left voluntarily and chose not to return.”

    The unfortunate fact of Israeli history is one of ethnic cleansing at the inception and ethnic discrimination in its in-migration, public assistance, development, investment and housing?poli\ies and practices

    Why have Arab lands been seized and houses been confiscated for Jewish only housing the entirity of the nations history?

    Most Jewish historians accept these facts and the Israeli right wing does so with considerable triumpalism.

    Let us debunk the lie about my comments being lies.

    The fact is Jewish settlements steal land and water. The government gives them resources to do this expansion. Right wing “Christians” from the United States provide drilling technology and, make no bones about their ethnic cleansing agenda to create the perfect landing pad for Christ in the West Bank, proudly boast of their “cleaning out Muslims” and even brag about slant drilling under Palestian village water wells.

    The hydrology data regarding Isreal stealing 80% of the ground water from under the West Bank much quoted by Amnesty International comes from Jewish scientists.

    Why did Menachim Begin have a map on the wall of his official office that the area marked Israel included not just the West Ban , but Siani and Jordan?

    Read the speeches of Ariel Sharon who liberally referred to removal of the Arab population from Ersatz Israel. And the world knows him as having presided over the murders of hundreds and perhaps thousands of Palestinians- including over 600 women. children and old people in the Sabra camp after the first of several illegal invasions of Lebannon.

    And Israelis- many out brainwashed fears like those that brought us Bush, cheerfully elected this war criminal Prime Minister.

    And explain the thousands bulldozing of peoples homes and destruction of their fields in blatant expansionist land grabs? What about the blanket prohibition of improvement of West /Bank infastructure (along with considerable demolition of same) Why can’t a West Bank homeowner get a permit to expand his home? Why have their been no building permits issued for Palestinians while the government supplies trailer homes to hundreds of people who they wink and call “illegal” settlers?

    That this process has taken place over 40 years time shows a remarkable amount of patience. public relations savy and outright guile. It is systematic ethnic cleansing on slow-motion.

    Alas, I support some version- preferably a state of Israel where all may live in peace. The current Israel law of return is blatantly racist and it is a violation of the US Constitution to support such place.i

    Still I support Israel- but and Israel that behaves itself.

    I support a one state solution where such racist and discriminatory laws will be voted out of existence and the better thinking Jews will lead the way to getting along with and thriving with their neighthrs.

    Steve, you and the other knee-jerk believers in the false “Eleventh Commandment”- thou shalt not criticize Israel- ae the worst thing happening to that unhappy land.

    You of the trade peace for land Israeli right-wing are the cause of much of the suffering. I carry no brief for suicide bombers. They are ignorant and led by the factions of Palestians that are most useful to the Israeli expansionists.

    It is well documented that Mossad had a large hand in creating Hamas to marginalize the Hannah Ashwaris and other moderates in Fatah. No Steve, the rejectionists and the Israeli right feed on each other.

    And while you are at it why don’t you explain why a van load of Mossad agents in work pull over suits was arrested in NYC on 9/11 after seen dancing with flickering lighters like celebrants at a rock concert as the World Trade Center crummbled ?

    Bush and the Israeli right continue to push for Armageddon to bring on the tMessiah. Iran is their patsy in this sick scenario.

    There is still a way out of this. Consider Peace Now.

  296. 296 Roberto
    July 3, 2008 at 19:23

    To me the biggest threat facing the world is the lack of mutual understanding on the part of people of different persuasions.
    ————————————————————————————————–

    ——– Amen, brother.

    What happens is that some, maybe most people lack the ability to put themselves in the other guy’s shoes, his skin, his culture. It’s in our DNA to protect our family, our tribe, our race, our nation, to root for our football team against the dreaded “other”.

    I would one up you though. Consider that most politicians and leaders have been distinctly average to poor. Great leaders are rare, and then some of those noted for their ability to conquer, like Genghis Khan, Alexander the Great ect. Then you have the evil ones, the Maos, Stalins, Hitlers.

    War, war, and more war. Against “The Other.”

    So, to this point, great pacifist, people oriented leaders who lift both the spirit and conditions of their peoples may be the rarest of the rare, Gandhi, Jesus, MLKing notable examples.

    So, now we have a modern era with modern weapons, communications, global economies, and a distinctly average to poor leader like GDub comes along in charge of the greatest power the earth has ever seen, duly elected in a valid though hair thin democratic process, and he wants to be great.

    But he ain’t, so he goes forth and creates a bigger global mess than what was already there. People everywhere are starting to enter a crisis phase. They really don’t feel secure enough to be big enough to be understanding enough to know “the other.”

    Unfortunately, history tells us it takes some major bloodletting before the peace returns. And I don’t see any great leader in the queue ready to step forth. All I see is the typical politicians and strongmen.

    Lord help us all. It may take a miracle to stop the growing momentum towards global war.

    Hope I’m just a cynic full of beans. Or maybe just having a bad dream.

    We shall see.

  297. 297 Syed Hasan Turab
    July 3, 2008 at 20:29

    Admiral Ackbar,
    One time Holocust dosent allow Jewish state to repeat holocust on Phalistanian refugee camps & Gaza strip. In the light of Isrieli behaviour in 2008 fearness of Jewish community is natural, to me it sound like INCOURAGEABLE or DISABILITY to learn from HOLOCUST.
    This is why chain is essential for MIDDLE EASTERN BLOOD HOUND. Because of supportive behaviour USA & EU are faceing RED LINE behaviour of one time friend’s with there help at least USA climbed up to SUPER POWER STATUS IN INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY, on the other hand USA & EU rewarded with honour of TERRORISM by JEWISH STATE OF ISRIEL.
    Time & alarming situation for the world to remove the root cause or atleast fix it up to acceptable human standard as the histry of crime against humanity is a big challange for world peace. Because of Isriel’s Nazi style behaviour all Middle East is under threat including Iran. Please understand the message in a positive way from humanitarian & sufferings point of view as an urgent need.
    No doubt peace can not achieved with out balance of power.

  298. 298 Bryan
    July 3, 2008 at 20:33

    Dr. Will Ware July 3, 2008 at 7:09 pm,

    I’ll take one point from your hate-filled anti-Israel rant (why bother with the rest) and expose it for the lie that it is:

    “The unfortunate fact of Israeli history is one of ethnic cleansing at the inception…”

    Rubbish. The Jews pleaded with the Arabs (they were not calling themselves Palestinians at the time) to remain in their villages while the leaders of the surrounding Arab armies were exhorting them to leave, promising that they could return “once the Jews had been driven into the sea.” This has all been documented and it is all on record. Yes, there was Deir Yassin and yes, many Arabs fled because they thought the Jews would do to them what they would have done to the Jews if the situation had been reversed, but unfortunately for you and the rest of the Israel-bashers, the more than a million Israeli Arabs of today are living proof against your slander of “ethnic cleansing.” These Arabs, of course, are largely the remnants and descendants of those who chose to remain in the nascent state of Israel and weather the storm.

    Lies, half truths and propaganda are easy to expose with the internet.

  299. 299 Roberto
    July 3, 2008 at 20:49

    Read the speeches of Ariel Sharon who liberally referred to removal of the Arab population from Ersatz Israel. And the world knows him as having presided over the murders of hundreds and perhaps thousands of Palestinians- including over 600 women. children and old people in the Sabra camp after the first of several illegal invasions of Lebannon.
    ——————————————————————————————-

    —— Now, hopefully I got you isolated and framed here doc.

    Bulldozer never known as a diplomatic ideal, thus his nickname. A hard brutal man for hard brutal times.

    So, pray do tell us why the Palestinians collapsed the Israeli peace coalition in 2000 which ushered in the current Sharon era. You know, they guy you complain about. Would Palestinians also vote in Stalin, Hitler, Mao today if they could?

    It’s simple doc, just answer a simple easy question.

    Why? Why did the Palestinians collapse the Israeli peace coalition in 2000 which ushered in the current Sharon era.

    They did you know by cranking up the infitada and launching a wave of suicide bombers into the previous open borders of Israel.

    Why did your side do that? There was no war going on. Economic conditions were excellent for Palestinians. Travel was easy. Children were being provided for and educated. Business was prospering. An internationally recognized Palestine was a signature away from reality.

    Why?

    Was it Sharon you really wanted and deserved?

  300. 300 steve
    July 3, 2008 at 20:49

    @ Syed

    For being “Nazis” israel has a lot to learn from it’s arab neighbors, given Jordan killed more Palestinians in several weeks in 1970 than israel has in 40 years. But I wouldn’t want to confuse you with facts.

  301. 301 steve
    July 3, 2008 at 20:52

    @ Will Ware

    You should be ashamed of yourself for mistating the facts like that. You’re making it seem like Israel was behind Sabra and Shatilla, when it was Lebanese Phalangists who conducted it. Your statement of facts makes it seem like Israel did it. Ironic, Sharon is a “war criminal” for not preventing it, but the actual Phalangist who did it gets elected to the Lebanese Parliament. But if it’s easier to blame the Jew for it, go right ahead.

  302. 302 Alec Paterson
    July 3, 2008 at 22:31

    Syed,

    The new Nazis are the followers of Islam, Ahmadinejad, Nasrallah, Zawahiri, Khalid Mashal, Sheik Muhammad Sayyed Tantawi (top cleric of Al Azhar University), the late Yasser Arafat and of course the prototype, Hajji Amin El Husseini. Their rhetoric is not disimilar to that of Hitler’s Germany regarding the Jewish people and religion. This anti-Semism predates the creation of modern Israel. Pogroms against Jews were committed in Baghdad (1941) and Tripoli, Libya (1945). You are just another apologist for these Islamist Jew haters. Read their speeches, reminds you of the Nazi era.

    Dr Will,

    Get your facts right. Following the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, the Mandated territory of Palestine was passed to British control In 1922, 80% of this territory (now Jordan) was given to the Hashemites, following their expulsion from the Arabian peninsula by the House of Saud. Jordan has a Palestinian Arab population of approx 70%). Jews were also ousted from their properties in Arab lands, and also from areas in the current West Bank eg Hebron. Jordan and Saudi are apartheid states, as their law does not allow Jewish residence.

    The messianic regime in Tehran cannot be trusted with nuclear weapons. Do we want to be held hostage by this despotic regime. The sooner we show them we mean to stop them, the better for mankind. Time is running out.

  303. 303 Syed Hasan Turab
    July 4, 2008 at 00:03

    Steve,
    you are missing twenty years of Isriel age, dosent matter first or last both contain’s brutal attack on refugee camps, this is what Hitler never did with Jewish Malaishia even they were doing there level best to terrorising German Govt under Hitler leadership, dont forget Hitler was publicaly elected leader of Germany, exazetly like Isrieli Govt.
    Alec Paterson,
    The cryteria you are applying to determin old & new Nazi’s may be you mis one person unfortunately he born in Isriel & got an honour to lead the Isriel as President i.e. Ishaq Rabbih, his total disagreement with Importe Jewish of Isrieli community & sincearity with peace lead him towerds assesnation by terrorist minded Jewish, do not hesitate to point out these kind of people from Isrieli leadership & Jewish Counsil.
    Dont forget every Barbic regeem always face worst, time to coirrect your self & rest of the Jewish community from mistakes of 1940’s nature, use you skill, knowledge & efforts in a positive way, no need to be bias with rest of the society.

  304. 304 steve
    July 4, 2008 at 01:06

    @ Syed

    I don’t understand what you’re trying to say. Are you saying Jews were terrorizing the German government?

  305. July 4, 2008 at 04:51

    How do the ordinary people of Israel and Iran feel about this ? Is all conflict between the two nations artificially created ? Has Israel over-reacted, and is Iran ready to do the same thing: ie over-react ? Who, or what drives this – the politicians, the people, or other external forces ? If you believe that both countries are abnormal (ie not what you and I might recognise as “normal”) can they ever be at peace – true, lasting, respectful peace ?

    I like the tone of your questions Peter Dobbie. It seems you have fallen onto something. The common people not in politics, in the military, religious zealous, or the heads of controlled organizations of their government, they don’t make the reasons for war. They suffer because of these warmongers and made to hate those that attack them is response to violence and abuse.

    The nations that back Iran and the nations that back Israel are the puppeteers of the violence, abuse and war.

    Mind Control has become a perfected art. The Id is mapped and those very buttons that enact controlled responses are dialogued, pieced together like a puzzle to motivate and put into reaction to any response the architects will.

  306. 306 Syed Hasan Turab
    July 4, 2008 at 05:30

    Steven
    If you get chance please read Polish & German news papers of 1940’s will make lot easier for you to understand the Economical & physical terrorisam of Jews community in Europe via Jewish Malysia, you may please compair prevailing behaviour of this community with Phalistanian’s may provide answer of physical terrorisam. If you want to know about Economical terrorisam check US economy, dont forget to compair living standard of this community in USA with average American Citizen.
    Even US army is doing slavery for Jewish state & innocent citizens are in misurable condition kind of help less against Jews magic to US Congress & Senate.
    Steve you always ask sensative questions, any way I am very clear if any one behave negative even with Jewish community you will find me with them as I support Humanity & Human value’s beyond materialistic evil life style.
    What ever I dont like for my self I dont choose for rest of the society.

  307. 307 Bryan
    July 4, 2008 at 16:19

    steve July 4, 2008 at 1:06 am

    “@ Syed

    I don’t understand what you’re trying to say. Are you saying Jews were terrorizing the German government?”

    I believe he is. He must think he is talking to idiots who will believe any anti-Semitic, neoNazi lie that he comes up with. I note also that he has no answer to Alec Paterson’s observation of who has in fact taken over from the Nazis..

  308. 308 Anis
    July 4, 2008 at 19:00

    It seems like this site has been completely taken over by right wing Jews. They go by their physical might and have their own agenda. They will not accept any compromise. Their destiny is only one – destruction, it could be self destruction or / and mass destruction. That will be tragedy for humanity.

    Dr Will Ware, Syed – there is no point breaking your head here. This debate is completely a gone case. We are talking to 30% of Jews who are hell bent to take their own course and agenda. We need the 70% of Jews who are saner lot to discuss with. They may not have the power to influence change which is required so desperately in the USA and Israel simultaneously.

    And if this is the attitude of leaders of Jewish community as a whole then Iran having Nukes is a better option. People who profess in favour of Iran having nukes – not all of them may be as crazy as these right wingers here.

  309. 309 selena
    July 4, 2008 at 19:32

    @Anis

    There are right wing Jews here… not much doubt about it.

    They will continue to call anything and everything antisemitic… not much doubt about that either.

    But the simple truth of the matter is they have as much right to be here as anyone. And it is the nature of democratic politics that people gang up to shout down the other side. As they say, shouters get their way because people who dislike the heat get out of the kitchen.

    Sadly, the people who retreat are usually the people with moderate views!

    There are many level headed people here who see everything that is being said for what it is… the opinion of people with particular biases.

    Through conversations such as this we get to see all sides… even the side of right wing fundamentalists… be they Jews, Christians or Atheists.

    The wisdom of the crowd is compelling when the crowd is *allowed* to see all sides.

    One thing to keep in mind: when people start shouting and name calling it means someone has hit a nerve.

  310. 310 Syed Hasan Turab
    July 4, 2008 at 20:05

    Bryan,
    Please go through the histry of 1940 & compair ground realities of 2008, you will find the answer of your question.Any way its time to quet with unhealthy & unhuman practice of causing trouble for immediate neighbourhood in Global Village, please come out from typical Jewish Capsul of destructive nature while living in society.
    There are certain manners & aticates to live in the society, according to prevailing desaster each & every Jewish need foundation course of morality & basic’s of humanity, other wise they will always live in the fear of Nazi Hitler not because of any threat because of sick evil behaviour living in any part of the World.
    Did Jewish ever be greatfull to any one including God or always involve in conspericies of destructive nature by way of using there knowledge & skill in negative way, I hope we need to investagate entire Jewish community & possible cure of deseas, now they have no chance to deny with the crimes & may be verified from any one living in society, along with burden of proof.

  311. 311 steve
    July 4, 2008 at 20:13

    I’m actually so dumbfounded by this discussion that I am actually laughing. Selena, you honestly think we’re right wing jews for challenging the undeniable antisemitism in this? Have you read anything? Syed says that Jews terrorized the nazi government. Syed says that the jews need to be investigated to see if they are a disease. All I’m doing is calling him out on it, and yet I’m calling everything “antisemitism”? I do because it is. Man, this has been the funniest HYS ever. What else does someone have to say here before you will admit it’s antisemitic? “Finish the job?” Telling Jewish jokes? I mean what else.

    If you don’t think this is antisemitism, then I really feel bad for you (from Syed): “I hope we need to investagate entire Jewish community & possible cure of deseas, now they have no chance to deny with the crimes & may be verified from any one living in society, along with burden of proof.”

    He also stated: “Did Jewish ever be greatfull to any one including God or always involve in conspericies of destructive nature by way of using there knowledge & skill in negative way”

    YOU people are proof why there needs to be a strong Israel. Oh wait, it’s my insane imagination to dare thing those comments are antisemitic. Thanks for the laugh people. Fortunately Israel is strong and there’s nothing you can do about it.

  312. 312 Bryan
    July 4, 2008 at 22:39

    selena July 4, 2008 at 7:32 pm

    “There are right wing Jews here… not much doubt about it.

    They will continue to call anything and everything antisemitic… not much doubt about that either.”

    That is totally untrue and I suspect you know that.

    “Through conversations such as this we get to see all sides… even the side of right wing fundamentalists… be they Jews, Christians or Atheists.”

    But no Muslim fundamentalists? Strange, don’t you think?

    Anis July 4, 2008 at 7:00 pm

    “It seems like this site has been completely taken over by right wing Jews.”

    It only seems like that to you, Anis, because you see a Jewish conspiracy in everything. I doubt that there are more than two or three Jews commenting on this entire blog. Perhaps these few Jews have too much power here and you would prefer them to be silenced?

    Now perhaps the left wing fundamentalists on this blog would like to finally answer a single question relevant to the Iran-Israel debate, based on the following background information:

    *Rather than directly confronting Israel, Iran has been attacking Israel for decades via Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad and other terrorist groups. It continues to arm, train and finance these groups with the short-term aim of killing Israelis, whether soldiers or civilians, and the long term aim of the destruction of Israel.

    *No country apart from Israel would be expected to tolerate this unprovoked terrorist war against its citizens.

    *Israel has never attacked Iran.

    Here’s the question:

    What would Iran do to Israel if Israel disarmed?

  313. 313 selena
    July 4, 2008 at 22:57

    Oops! I forgot those dastardly Muslim fundamentalists.

    My apologies to all who have been offended by the slip of my keyboard. 🙂

  314. 314 selena
    July 4, 2008 at 22:58

    @Bryan

    Did you see a Muslim conspiracy in my forgetting to mention Muslim fundamentalists?

    There might be a pot and a kettle here somewhere!! 🙂

  315. 315 Syed Hasan Turab
    July 5, 2008 at 02:11

    Steve, Bryan & Selena,
    Do you remember posting’s of Mr Zake in regad to Nazari Jewish & refugee Status, I repeat his question again ” WHY JEWISH FACE TROUBLE EVERY TIME”?
    Look few now perspective’s of this vacumme Blocked:-
    A. If all Muslim’s converted back to Jewish ( as there was no Islam before Mohammad & all muslim’s were Jewish or Christine & converted Muslims during Mohammad’s time) this conflict will be over No Never, as this war is not for God & Moses all three ( Jewish, Christine & Muslims) believe in same God & same Moses as prophit.
    B. If all Jewish converted Muslim’s or Christine’s this war will be over No Never,
    C. If we adopt pleading’s of Moses, Christ & Mohammad we dont find any contraduction among there Holy messages.
    D. Infact we need improvement in our practical life approach (specially Jewish) as we are far away from Holly Messages of life.
    E. Holocust, Semitism & anti semitism are our self creative behavioural issues, & may be fixed with a U turn in the light of MOSES/Jesus & Mohammad’s education.

  316. 316 Bryan
    July 5, 2008 at 07:45

    selena July 4, 2008 at 10:58 pm,

    Nope, no Muslim conspiracy, just the unwritten rule at the BBC that you can’t point a finger at Muslims, left wingers, “human rights” organisations and so on. But it’s apparently OK to point a finger at America, Christians, Israel and so on.

    Now that I have answered your question, will you answer the question I posed at 10:39 pm yesterday? Fair enough?

  317. 317 steve
    July 5, 2008 at 15:22

    @ Selena

    Why not answer my question? Would would someone have to say about the Jews for them to be an antisemite in your eyes? The comments in this thread don’t get any worse, other than “too bad hitler didn’t finish the job”. is that would it would take for someone to say before you would admit they are an antisemite? Why not answer the question?

  318. 318 selena
    July 5, 2008 at 16:02

    @ Steve

    What? What? Did you ask me a question? I don’t read ALL the posts.

    I have never given any thought to such a question because I believe people have a right to say anything they wish. It doesn’t matter to me what anyone says. I don’t live my life hanging onto the words that come out of the mouths of people who are s— disturbers (whoever they happen to be).

    Actually, I find most of the stuff funny. When someone knows they can perturb others they will keep saying bigger and *better* things to see how far they can go. I honestly don’t know how people can live their lives worrying about the opinions of others.

    Antisemitic has had its singular day, Steve.

    We really should concentrate on all the other antis out there… anti Gypsy, for example.

    So, short answer to your question… Nothing individuals could say would bother me any more than anti fat comments, anti homosexuals comments, anti Black comments or any other anti comments.

    All anti comments come from closed minds and they all bother me equally.

    Look out and about Steve, my darling. There is a great big world out there waiting to be discovered. And, believe it or not, that world belongs to us all.

  319. 319 steve
    July 5, 2008 at 16:04

    @ Selena

    Look back, it’s only a couple posts back. What would someone have to say to be antisemitic to you? YOu accuse me of being a right wing jew, and this thread is full of conspiracy theories about jews being a disease, jews being behind everyhthing bad, that jews should be doing this, not that. Please read what I quoted syed say then comment on it. At least you’re admitting it is an “anti” comment, but at the same time you said I was making false antisemite accusations, and I’m curious why.

  320. 320 Bryan
    July 5, 2008 at 16:35

    Play fair, selena. We are not on an ice skating rink here where we can just glide past one another. Apart from yourself, many people on this blog cheerfully avoid direct debate and direct challenges. The fact that there are many other prejudices around does not diminish the prejudice of anti-Semitism – which has been described as “the longest hatred.”

    To look at the debate from another perspective, take the Armenian genocide. I understand that more than a million Armenians were slaughtered by the Turks during World War I. Now I wouldn’t dream of denying the Armenian genocide or comparing Armenians to the Turks of the time specifically to try to fling the worst insult I could at them. So why is it somehow OK that Jews are compared to Nazis by the Syeds of this world and the numerous people with their hate-filled agendas who frequent BBC forums such as ‘Have Your Say’?

    I thought WHYS had rules against spreading abuse and hatred. You not only seem to think it’s fine to give people like Syed a platform, you seem to be unaware of his anti-Semitic, neoNazi agenda, even though it has been pointed out often enough.

    Here’s my question again, from 10:39 pm yesterday, on the off chance that you or anyone else might be prepared to answer it:

    What would Iran do to Israel if Israel disarmed?

  321. 321 Alec Paterson
    July 5, 2008 at 16:48

    An examination of Islamic doctrines and history shows that antisemitism (sin’uth) is and has been an enduring phenomenon since the origins of Islam.

    Muhammad Sayyid Tantawi wrote in his 700 page treatise rationalizing Muslim Jew hatred, Banu Isra’il fi al-Koran wa al-Sunna [Jews in the Koran and the Traditions], originally published in the 1970s, and then re-issued in 1986/87)
    [The] Koran describes the Jews with their own particular degenerate characteristics, i.e. killing the prophets of Allah, corrupting His words by putting them in the wrong places, consuming the people’s wealth frivolously, refusal to distance themselves from the evil they do, and other ugly characteristics caused by their deep-rooted lasciviousness…only a minority of the Jews keep their word….[A]ll Jews are not the same. The good ones become Muslims, the bad ones do not. (Koran 3:113)

    Tantawi was apparently rewarded for this scholarly effort by being named Grand Imam of Al-Azhar University in 1996, a position he still holds. These are the expressed, “carefully researched” views on Jews held by the nearest Muslim equivalent to a Pope—the head of the most prestigious center of Muslim learning in Sunni Islam, Sunnis representing some 85% of the world’s Muslims. And Sheikh Tantawi has not mollified such hatemongering beliefs since becoming the Grand Imam of Al-Azhar as his statements on the Jews as “enemies of Allah, descendants of apes and pigs”, the legitimacy of homicide bombing of Jews, or “dialogue” with Jews (just below), make clear.

    …anyone who avoids meeting with the enemies in order to counter their dubious claims and stick fingers into their eyes, is a coward. My stance stems from Allah’s book [the Koran], more than one-third of which deals with the Jews…[I] wrote a dissertation dealing with them [the Jews], all their false claims and their punishment by Allah. I still believe in everything written in that dissertation. [i.e., from above, in Banu Isra’il fi al-Koran wa al-Sunna]

    Tantawi’s case illustrates the prevalence and depth of sacralized, “normative” Jew hatred in the contemporary Muslim world. Even if all non-Muslim Judeophobic themes were expunged from the Islamic world, the living legacy of anti-Jewish hatred, and violence rooted in Islam’s sacred texts—Koran, hadith, and sira—would remain intact. The assessment and understanding of Islamic antisemitism must begin with an analysis of the anti-Jewish motifs contained in these foundational texts of Islam.

  322. 322 steve
    July 5, 2008 at 17:12

    @ Bryan

    I am responsible for approving most of the comments here that are in controversy, because i think it’s important for people to realize the viewpoints of the kneejerk anti Israel people. Selena has a point that some people consider any criticism of Israel to be antisemitism, but there are blatantly anti Jewish statements here, and I think it’s important for every one to realize this is the mentality that Israel has to face. I know lots of people that grew up muslim, and now are athiest, and they told me that back in their countries, they were taught to hate jews from the day they were born. I have a feeling that someone like syed will tolerate Jews if they all would do as he wants them to do, but if that doesn’t happen, then as he states, he thinks they are dissease, and was likely taught that Jews are responsible for all of the world’s problems. Again, he said the Jews terrorized Nazi Germany. I find it HILARIOUS that people on here don’t think that’s antisemitic.

  323. 323 selena
    July 5, 2008 at 17:22

    @ Alec

    “An examination of Islamic doctrines and history shows that antisemitism (sin’uth) is and has been an enduring phenomenon since the origins of Islam.”

    Don’t forget the Christians! They started antisemitism long before there were Muslims.

  324. 324 selena
    July 5, 2008 at 17:38

    @Steve

    Yes, Jews have to face criticism on a daily basis. No one can ever deny that. If the closed minded do deny it what does it matter?

    Put yourself in the shoes of the downtrodden and you might come to see that people other than Jews are suffering, on a daily basis, from criticism.

    It doesn’t matter how long criticism has been around. If it started yesterday it is just as bad.

    When people criticize other people it is a terrible thing to behold. The problem with bad things though is we usually only see the bad that which is done to us. We can’t or won’t see the bad that is done to others.

    Hate is just as bad for the hater as it is for the hated. Do you think people ever truly come to terms with what they do to others? They suffer and their children suffer. So, my point is, WE must take a step to end the suffering. No one else is going to do it, so WE must.

    If the leaders can’t stop suffering, WE must try. And we have a good place to start… here on WHYS.

  325. 325 selena
    July 5, 2008 at 17:40

    @Steve

    Did I accuse YOU of being a right wing Jew? Did I say Steve is a right wing Jew?

    🙂

  326. 326 Bryan
    July 5, 2008 at 17:51

    Steve, yes I take your point. If these comments don’t get published we don’t know what’s out there.

    But I don’t intend to respond to Syed since all he does is tip anti-Semitic and neoNazi garbage onto this site and he wont enter into any debate about the smell.

    I don’t find it hilarious that selena and others can’t see the anti-Semitism. It makes me lose my sense of humour. But I suppose I could see the funny side if I tried hard enough.

  327. 327 victork13
    July 5, 2008 at 18:16

    I’m not moderating this page but I think those who are should be mindful of what Ros and Mark expect when it comes to civility and respect. I wouldn’t have passed several of Syed’s posts that have been published here (though I would have given him the opportunity to remove or re-write certain offensive lines). I haven’t read the entire thread so there may be others who are just as much at fault as Syed, though I know he has form in this respect.

    Like it or not there’s a WHYS standard that all moderators need to have regard to. I don’t think that we can be completely laissez faire or post unacceptable comments in order to expose the poster.

    Let’s try to make this work.

  328. 328 Syed Hasan Turab
    July 5, 2008 at 18:30

    Over all teaching’s of Holly messanger’s try to meet the challange’s of same nature of 2008, do we have to go back to find the solution’s from holly books, yes we study holly books keeping in view of our behaviour living in prevailing society,
    As far as practical approach of life is concerned I notice an evil injection in innocent Jewish Kids from the age of three to six at the name of religious education.
    In USA first grade schooling started at the age of six, though K 4 & K5 started from the age of 4, but you wont find any Jewish kid to US public schools before six years of age.
    Now after graducting from from Jewish school at the age of Six these innocent brains join US public school’s & find themselves in a puzzle to get along with multinational students of peacefull nature.
    I dont know what is the sylabus of Jewish school, according to my kids & there friends all fresh arrival of Jewish Kids is kind of segrated, double minded, puzle & full with the hate under command & controll of some one else.
    Any discussion, table talk & story presantion in class room they have nothing to tell beside Holocust & related hate. According to an African American kid I am tired & sick from there holocust stories, my generation’s did the slavery & I never complain about it publically, I am glad that this is over, I am unable to figuor out where these Jewish kids are up to or they hate every body in society.
    Please read this contribution to reach on conclusion & reach on decision to remove subject of hate from Jewish Dictionary.
    No doubt healthy & accomodative behaviour is essential to live in any society, look at the US society how much they are liberal & accomodative with every one even Jewish Schools are injecting evil elements & they dont care with all the sucess & strong healthy brains. God bless USA.
    To me it sound like Sick Human behaviour that we are teaching hate at the name of religion & this education is not part of Moses message at all.

  329. 329 steve
    July 6, 2008 at 13:35

    @ Selena

    Look at Syed’s last post. He thinks that aJewish kids are segregated until age 6, then they infiltrate public schools and tain the public schools with the Jewish agenda.
    Oh Syed, I’m a Jew and I went to pre-school at a church. But maybe I was a 4 year old zionist agent there, put in to bring the system down a bit earlier than the normal?

  330. 330 selena
    July 6, 2008 at 14:47

    @Steve

    Don’t ask me to read long posts! My poor brain. 😉

    Why do you read it if it bothers you?

    Jewish kids are like all other kids. They are brought up to think a certain way. Why do we keep denying that we are all the same?

    Each group teaches its children negative things about other groups. It is up to each individual to rise above it.

  331. 331 steve
    July 6, 2008 at 14:51

    @ Selena

    Maybe where you’re from each group teaches its children negative things about other groups, but not where I’m from.

  332. 332 selena
    July 6, 2008 at 15:05

    @Steve

    No? If you say so! 🙂

  333. 333 Syed Hasan Turab
    July 6, 2008 at 17:54

    Steve, Salena.
    My post may be considered as Universal Truth & may please be verifed from USA schooling system’s.
    To me these little angels are victom of proposed adultry crime of moral nature & may please be considered “CHILD ABUSE’.
    IN A COUNTRY LIKE USA THIS CRIME MAY BE FIXED BY LEGISLATER’S OR EXECUCTIVE’S of USA at each & every county level via district attornies.
    An option of open public inquery will help a lot along with physiological check ups of each & every child. I may propose to rest of the countries please check it out, just to remove the rooi cause of immorilities & criminal attitute from our society. This posting will provide you solid grounds to determin “EVILISM” in our society.
    May God bless all of us & enlighted us with all religious teaching’s along with WHYS.

  334. 334 Bryan
    July 7, 2008 at 07:22

    selena July 6, 2008 at 2:47 pm

    “Jewish kids are like all other kids. They are brought up to think a certain way. Why do we keep denying that we are all the same?”

    This is the central fallacy of the dreamy idealism of the left. The Jewish child who is warned against mingling with that other group downtown because there are some rough characters there is not the same as the the Palestinian child who has been indoctrinated in the hatred of Jews from a very early age and taught that Israel has no right to exist, or the Saudi child in a London school who has been taught that Jews and Christians are the descendants of monkeys and pigs.

  335. 335 Nassar from Kuwait
    July 9, 2008 at 11:40

    @ Dan

    Please put some effort into it. Do you know any Arab country ruled by muslim extremists?

    What hypocrisy is this ? What about Israel’s already existing nuclear program ?

    If Israel has it then any other country in the region wanting to have it should have it.

    Your democratic Israel is definitely not more moderate or ethical then some of it’s neighbors.

  336. 336 Nassar from Kuwait
    July 9, 2008 at 11:53

    @ Brian and Steve

    Please don’t be so ignorant. Some facts are simple to check. Jews are allowed in Saudi Arabia, Israelis are not. If you think that’s the same thing then you are probably a fanatic.

    By the way the people in Saudi Arabia are happier with their regime then the peoples of Israel an the US. Please do not over estimate your democracy. Please do not appoint yourselves guardians of others.

    Enough stereotyping enough simplification. It only hurts you, Saudi Arabia and co. are a civilisation and a culture in themselves, what you think about them is progressively rendered irrelevant by the rise in power of non-western nations.
    Use labels that are accepted bu the other, at least that way a discussion can occur.

    We are happy with our “regimes”. Are you happy with yours ?
    Btw do you people have universal healthcare yet ? Do blacks marry whites ?
    Have you ever had a non-white in power ?

  337. 337 steve
    July 9, 2008 at 12:06

    @ Nasser

    Have you ever had a non muslim in power? There are many blacks and whites here who have married. Can a non muslim openly practice their religion the way they want? Can a woman walk down the street dressed however she wants? You should think before you pose such questions. I’ve never said Jews cannot go to Saudi Arabia. My dad has been there before.

  338. 338 Nassar from Kuwait
    July 10, 2008 at 03:55

    You chose to answer some questions yet ignore others.
    Here are a few more for you. Again… have you ever had a black in power ? We have.
    How common is it for blacks and whites to marry ? In other words is it an “issue” ? Over here it isn’t an issue and it’s very common.

    When you ask these questions, are you referring to Kuwait or Saudi Arabia? I’m guessing that you are referring to both since many anglo-saxons don’t seem to differentiate a lot between muslim states, let alone Kuwait and Saudi Arabia.
    Regardless i’ll help you know more about both.

    Yes, where i live, a non-muslim can openly practice their religion.
    Have we ever had a christian in power ? No, but that also probably due to the fact that christians are an almost non-existent minority in Kuwait (we have had ambassadors and senior diplomats though).
    In Saudi Arabia there are no Saudis of faiths other then muslim, but there are different sects (YES different muslim sects can practice their religion openly).

    Can women walk down the streets wearing what they want in Kuwait yes.
    Can they do the same in Saudi Arabia ? No. But then again, how is it any of your business ?
    Don’t you know that the Saudi people, even those considered by arab standards to be liberals, are in fact conservative. Do you know that in our democratically elected parliaments conservatives and “ultra”-conservatives win by wide margins ?

    I’ll assume that it is in fact your business and will ask you in response, whether the mosques in your countries can make their calls to prayer out loud as it is supposed to be ?
    Can women wear veils in french universities ?
    Is polygamy allowed ?
    Have you ever compared between the proportion of real estate (amongst other assets) owned in their respective countries by Saudi/Kuwaiti women and that of their western counterparts ?
    Do you know the financial and legal entitlements of the Saudi/Kuwaiti/muslim woman during and after her marriage and compared those to their western counterparts ?
    Have you examined the proportion of wealth detained by say… Saudi women relative to the Saudi economy ? Or do you only know that women inherit half of what men inherent.

    The reason i asked you these questions was to point out how your democratic systems are very limited.
    Mate, we had black african rulers during the “middle-ages”, yet you still can’t seem to realize that even in this day and age. What comes naturally to some don’t always come naturally to others.

    Think of these questions before you answer them.

  339. 339 Nassar from Kuwait
    July 10, 2008 at 04:03

    @steve

    correction to be made to previous comment

    “The reason i asked you these questions was to point out how your democratic systems are very limited, how they lack many of the principles they supposedly uphold, and which you believe seem to be missing in our countries.

  340. 340 Nassar from Kuwait
    July 10, 2008 at 04:32

    Its an undeniable fact the jews have always and still isolated themselves in certain ways from “mainstream” western life. Thats one of the reasons they have been persecuted for very long.

    I really find it fascinating how simplistic statements are being made by steve and bryan and how they render these statements to be absolute truths.

    In the west, a child before going to primary school is taught that arabs are “bad” people !!
    You can watch a cartoon about arabs and “arab looking” people and it will be bad, a hollywood movie will be inherently hostile towards arabs, a dinner table discussion, thats all they will get… discriminatory thought and language.

    The problem is you people have a hard time understanding that criticizing (regardless of whether necessary and normal or not) is fundamentally a form of disrespect. What do you expect your children to think when they hear you talk about arabs and muslims over dinner the way you talk and more importantly THINK about them? Yes they are human beings etc… but what u really think about them, their way of life their beliefs etc…

    Guys Europe has been anti-Semitic for centuries (before it magically stopped with the “slaying” of hitler and nazism). Why do you think that is ? How do you think that took place ? Schoolchildren in Europe were only taught during fascist times that jews were bad etc… Yet for some reason Europe and its people has had a bad record with jews even before fascism.

    Anti-Semitism is not transmitted through school books and curriculums. Its transmitted through the people, the culture. The commonly held beliefs of the masses.

    Why do you think we managed to live in relative peace with the jews for so long (in Spain, Arabia, Yemen, Egypt etc…) ??? Its not because the schoolbooks of the time were filled with nice things about jews !

    Look guys… its not the most common of things to teach infants that jews are this or that. But maybe the teachers are still p****d off that they, as children, were robbed of their country by newly arrived europeans, now called Israelis.

  341. 341 viola
    July 10, 2008 at 07:15

    This is a quote from a debate I listened to on TV:

    YOU ARE ENTITLED TO YOUR OWN OPINIONS. YOU ARE NOT ENTITLED TO YOUR OWN FACTS.

    Take heed. We who are history buffs are on to you who distort, twist, and tell outright lies about the historical facts of the conflict in the middle east. If you don’t know who you are, you’d best be widening your reading.

  342. 342 Bryan
    July 10, 2008 at 09:22

    Nasser, I was never taught anything negative about Arabs and I don’t know anybody who was. Yes, OK, some Jews can enter Saudi Arabia (though I am sure they keep very quiet about the fact that they are Jewish) but no infidel may soil the holy ground of Mecca and Medina with his impious feet.

    You can try as hard as you like to make the schooling in hatred of Jews and Christians by the Saudis appear to be a non-issue, but if Jews were teaching their children that Arab Muslims and Christians were the sons of pigs and monkeys we would never hear the end of it. Yet a Saudi-funded London school still has not been closed down by the British authorities despite continuing to teach this vile stuff. And from reports that continually surface, it appears that there is a concerted effort on the part of the Saudis to spread hatred of Jews and Christians throughout the Western world. And I wont even touch on the indoctrination of their children in hatred towards Jews and Christians by the Palestinians and by Hezbollah. These facts are well-documented for anyone who cares to look. So is the fact of the Saudis sponsoring terror by rewarding the families of Palestinian suicide bombers with large sums of cash. And you talk about respect? Respect has to be earned, and I have absolutely no respect for the Saudi terror elite who hide behind their oil wealth while encouraging the murder of Israeli civilians.

    There is a violent contradiction between your pride in your knowledge of these matters and your statement that, “..maybe the teachers are still p****d off that they, as children, were robbed of their country by newly arrived europeans, now called Israelis.”

    Do you really believe this, or is it just your mindless repetition of the standard insult to bash Israel with while ignoring the facts of the creation of Israel? I suppose your teachers taught you that there was never a country called Israel way before Islam came into being and that Jews did not live in the area through the long succession of invasions and occupation by other powers. I suppose they taught you that there was no such thing as Jews and Muslims joining forces to try to fight off the Crusaders and that there was no Jewish presence in Gaza, Hebron and Jerusalem over the centuries.

    And I guess they also taught you that there was no purchasing of Arab land by the incoming waves of Jewish immigration and no clearing of unwanted and uninhabitable land by the Jews and draining of marshes to create fertile land.

    I find your concern for the Palestinians interesting. Are there any Palestinians left in Kuwait? Or were they all killed or driven out after they supported Saddam Hussein during the First Gulf War?

    “Criticising is fundamentally a form of disrespect,” you claim. Not really. Constructive criticism is a good thing, but not wild allegations based on propaganda and prejudice, such as the ones you make.

    The internet is a powerful tool for the spreading of propaganda. But it is also a fine medium for the highlighting of that propaganda for what it is. Lies, half-truths and distortions and omissions of fact are exposed in minutes on the internet.

  343. 343 Nassar from Kuwait
    July 13, 2008 at 14:42

    @ Bryan

    Your arguments are very easy to reply to. But first i would like to respectfully ask you not to accuse me personally of being mindless that’s not nice and not compatible with the spirit of debating.

    ” Yes, OK, some Jews can enter Saudi Arabia (though I am sure they keep very quiet about the fact that they are Jewish)”.
    If they feel like they need to feel quiet about it that’s their problem… I know many arab and muslims living or studying in the west that had to leave countries such as Britain and america after 9/11. I know an even greater number that cancelled their plans to go their.
    Terrorism is a temporary state that will eventually disappear. At least we have we don’t have groups of people dedicated to bashing and kicking out “non-whites”.

    “You can try as hard as you like to make the schooling in hatred of Jews and Christians by the Saudis appear to be a non-issue, ”
    I am not making it a non-issue, i am just saying that it is secondary to other factors that cause racism. The primary causes are very prevalent in the west, meaning that the indoctrination of hate is worse in western societies. As a jew you should know that.

    “but if Jews were teaching their children that Arab Muslims and Christians were the sons of pigs and monkeys we would never hear the end of it. ”
    They don’t teach them that. Its a verse derived from the qoran which states that they ACT like pigs and apes. Stereotyping is a bad thing to do, especially when its done in the realm of a supposedly intelligent forum of discussion, actually it is a sign of hate.

    “Yet a Saudi-funded London school still has not been closed down by the British authorities despite continuing to teach this vile stuff. ”
    you expect your (democratic) states to violate their democratic principles for that sake… isn’t that fanaticism ?
    So not only do you expect us to fight our hate mongers, but you expect us to do that without you fighting your own hate mongers that encourage the hatred of muslims, arabs and non-western governments… Hate mongers that support white supremacy, christian supremacy etc…

    ” And from reports that continually surface, it appears that there is a concerted effort on the part of the Saudis to spread hatred of Jews and Christians throughout the Western world. ”
    Yes, and i’m sure you get your get your information from non-bias media, with a non-political agenda.
    Besides aren’t jewish schools around the world preaching how the jews are god’s chose people ?
    Trust me you exaggerate when you speak of the “Saudi conspiracy” to spread hate. What you are doing is reminiscent of what the west did to the jews… Also please be more specific who do you mean when you say Saudis ? Are you accusing the whole country of being racist ?

    ” There is a violent contradiction between your pride in your knowledge of these matters and your statement that, “..maybe the teachers are still p****d off that they, as children, were robbed of their country by newly arrived europeans, now called Israelis.”
    I never denied there was hate. But i do believe in the case of the palestinians, this hate is due to injustices they suffered. You seem to deny the existence of indoctrinated hate in the west. What causes/justifies the hate in your societies ?

    lol : ) … No i am aware of the history of the creation of the modern state of Israel.
    I am also aware of the ancient state of Israel, which btw is mentioned in the qoran. You see the qoran does serve your purpose at times.
    But i am also aware of the Caananites and other north semetic people present in Palestine before the Israelites. I am aware that the Israelites were a semetic people, some of whom (a minority i imagine) interbred with non-jews before and after the destruction of jerusalem by the romans.
    I am aware that there was no Israel for 2000 years. I am aware that the ANCIENT state of Israel was preceded and post ceded by the rule of other semetic states, today 98% of semites fit in the modern semetic sub-group called arabs.
    Did Palestinians grow out of trees ?
    I am aware that mostly european peoples arrived before and after 1948 leading to the creation of Israel.
    Are you aware of these facts ? You view of history seems very similar to a view of a nationalistic history broadcast by Nasser during the 50’s. We call it propaganda….

    ” I find your concern for the Palestinians interesting. Are there any Palestinians left in Kuwait? Or were they all killed or driven out after they supported Saddam Hussein during the First Gulf War?”
    Yes there are 60 000 to 70 000 of them or so (A ratio of 1 and 15 with Kuwaitis, the 4th or 5th largest non-national group in Kuwait).
    lol Are there any Palestinians left in Palestine ? : )
    Is there a Palestine ?
    Btw the Palestinians you refer to were guest workers who’s visas were not renewed following the collaboration of the PA and many Palestinians with Saddam. Indeed some acts of reprisal such as those witnessed during ww2 and the immediate aftermath of ww2 in the France, the US, England etc… did occur.

    ” The internet is a powerful tool for the spreading of propaganda. But it is also a fine medium for the highlighting of that propaganda for what it is. Lies, half-truths and distortions and omissions of fact are exposed in minutes on the internet.”

    Thank you for that grand finale… I agree

  344. 344 Bryan
    July 14, 2008 at 10:31

    All arguments are easy to reply to. They are not so easy to refute. Sorry, but again, this is mindless repetition of propaganda:

    “..maybe the teachers are still p****d off that they, as children, were robbed of their country by newly arrived europeans, now called Israelis.”

    Again, for the following reasons:

    *There was no country called “Palestine” then, never was and up till now it still doesn’t exist. So which country were the Arabs “robbed” of?

    *You choose to isolate one aspect of the formation of the state of Israel – the arriving European Jews. You conveniently omit the 850 000 Jews driven out of Arab countries with only the shirts on their backs, most of whom went to Israel. And you conveniently omit the Jews who had never left Israel, even when it was no longer Israel, and whose history can be traced in places like Gaza, Hebron and, of course, Jerusalem.

    *You wont look at the legitimate purchasing of Arab land by the Jews or the working of land that was previously uninhabitable and unwanted.

    You keep on claiming that Jews teach their children the equivalent of the hatred that Muslims teach theirs but you offer no evidence, simply because you can’t.

    You operate exactly like a propagandist, not somebody interested in genuine debate.

  345. 345 Nassar from Kuwait
    July 15, 2008 at 10:19

    @Bryan

    Just say you stole it and you are not giving it back.
    Thats politics, thats history and arguably that’s humanity…thats fine…A rational person shouldn’t be too upset by that.

    I believe the way forward is to honestly negotiate a peaceful way forward. Not to start a war with Iran.

  346. 346 Bryan
    July 15, 2008 at 12:12

    Well, you can ignore the points I’ve set out above and you can ignore history and repeat your mantra that Israel stole the land as much as you like but it wont make it true. You should not be talking about rationality in the same breath as your emotional statements.

    In 1947 the UN proposed the partition of Palestine into an Arab and Jewish state. The Arabs rejected it while the Jews accepted it, even though it fell far short of what had been envisaged in the Balfour Declaration of 1917. The Jews went on to (re)establish the state of Israel, which the Arabs tried to destroy at birth.

    Regarding Israel attacking Iran, you should know by now that Iran has in fact been attacking Israel for many years through its terrorist proxies, Hezbollah, Islamic jihad and Hamas and of course threatening to destroy Israel. Any attack by Israel on Iran will therefore be purely in self-defence.

    I understand that many Arab leaders are quite concerned about a nuclear-armed Iran and are secretly hoping that Israel does destroy Iran’s nuclear sites.

  347. July 26, 2008 at 06:29

    I remember watching a BBC televised programme several years ago before the present leadership of Iran in which a high ranking Minister of Iran was interviewed by a BBC reporter when he was asked if Iran intended to develop a neuclear bomb. the Minister replied in a way that butter could not melt in his mouth, he went on to deny it completely saying it was out of the question that Iran had any thought of doing so.
    I knew then that he was lieing, I could see it clearly in the way he was speaking.
    We now know it to be true.
    Iran has openly stated more than once that they were going to destroy Israel, its no idle threat. Should Israel ignore their threats?, I think not. Israel has no choice but to destroy all Iran’s atomic installations before Iran could put it to use. I think most countries would be glad if they did just that.


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