Talking Points for 27 May

Hello, It’s Priya with a few ideas for what we might do today… any comments or suggestions are welcome. Thanks Abdul in Oregon for moderating this page overnight.

First, there is something of theme developing surrounding the protection of children.


International charity Save the Children report that children in parts of the world affected by conflict have been raped and abused by United Nations peacekeepers and aid workers.

However, a report last week said that fewer conflicts involve child soldiers. . It says the numbers of conflicts involving children has fallen sharply, but there are still tens of thousands of child soldiers across the world.

So is it harder to be a child now than ever before? Why are children not being protected?

In sharp contrast, there has been a growing debate in many Western countries that kids are too overprotected.

American columnist Lenore Skenazy received a barrage of abuse for letting her nine-year-old ride the subway alone.

She started the forum Free Range Kids to encourage other Parents to give their child more freedom. She says “a little freedom is not the same thing as parental neglect”

Can you protect kids too much?



Up to 100,000 migrants in South Africa are said to have fled their homes after two weeks of violence – many of whom are Zimbabweans who fled Mugabe’s regime. So, is Mbeki suffering the consequences of his softly softly policy approach to Zimbabwe? If he had dealt with Mugabe sooner, would there be fewer Zimbabwean refugees in South Africa, refugees who are taking the blame now for high rates of crime and unemployment?



It’s not just in South Africa that immigrants are under attack, it’s happened in Italy too.

Yesterday I wrote about the perception and treatment of immigrants across the world – read it here.

Are governments letting immigrants and foreigners take the blame for the country’s problems?

39 Responses to “Talking Points for 27 May”

  1. 1 Will Rhodes
    May 26, 2008 at 19:46

    Good luck, Abdul and welcome.

  2. 2 Dennis Jr
    May 26, 2008 at 19:56

    Good Luck Abdul and Welcome…


  3. 3 Will Rhodes
    May 26, 2008 at 20:13

    We all know the dark-side of the internet, well that side which is told to us by various news media – the BBC included.

    So, what do WHYSer’s think about this story?


    Virtual worlds can be valuable places where children rehearse what they will do in real life, reveals research.

    They are also a “powerful and engaging” alternative to more passive pursuits such as watching TV, said the BBC-sponsored study.

    The research was done with children using the BBC’s Adventure Rock virtual world, aimed at those aged 6-12.

    The researcher said the BBC should have involved children early on to guide development and provide feedback.

  4. May 26, 2008 at 20:57

    Indeed good luck Abdul.

    The World Today here crashing the WHYS party as it were. My name is Pearse and I am looking after the ‘Could you write a Bond novel’ post.

    Many thanks to Will, Lubna and Hannah for their contributions to the post so far.

    It is an ambitious project writing a book in a day so we have given ourselves some extra room and it will kick off on Tuesday night.



  5. 5 Dennis Jr
    May 26, 2008 at 21:23

    @ World Today

    Hi Pearse,

    it is not to crash a party unless you bring entertainment and food to it….and money.

    I have a topic for the team:
    Over the weekend, we were talking about the group Hezbollah, the head of the group Hassan Nasrallah, is now urging peace with Israel?

    How many wars, terrorists attacks , injuries and deaths has the group cause…And now they want to start to live in peace with Israel….

    As I said over the weekend, I hope it does–but with the Middle East –chances are very little or no!

    Any other opinions to my questions?


  6. 6 Zak
    May 26, 2008 at 21:58

    One of the first real signs of progress comes with China allowing the citizens of Sichuan Province to be exempt from the ban on more than one child. According to NPR news this morning the country will allow any family that has lost a child or had one seriously wounded or disabled to have another child. This shows a kind of compassion that can only be said to reverse the hurt and start the healing process for the people.

    The best relative example I can think of is the slow reaction of the Bush administration after the hurricanes on the Gulf Coast. Ever so slowly and seemingly begrudgingly aid came beyond the cancerous fema trailers. It’s the almost karmic significance that stands out: an injured or disabled child being deemed a cause to allow for another may seem to almost be a disregard on the part of the governemnt. But just think of how much more healing can come for a child with a sibling who makes their family special. Again it’s almost hard to fathom how, like the people stuffed in those awful fema trailers, the most hard hit families will be given a new chance to grow. So just as the people moved out of the trailers, so will the Chinese families heal.

    Personally the government of China doesn’t impress me in their sentiment alone; it’s the way actions in a crisis can be the means to an end far bigger than the visions of a government. And when that happens the leaders are forced to give up their selfish indignation, if Bush can, anyone can. That’s my feeling on this momentous piece of news and It’s no doubt worthy of a show on WHYS.

  7. 7 Zak
    May 26, 2008 at 22:07

    BTW: whas’up Abdul as you can probably relate; I just came back from picking up veggie oil for my ride on a craze packed HWY 1 on Memorial Day so had to get that piece of new out first since it’s been on my mind from this morning. I don’t know where you are in Oregon but if you’ve been on that HWY on this day you know what I’m talking about. For once the little town of Gualala, my hometown, looks like a real small town!

  8. 8 Justin from Iowa
    May 26, 2008 at 23:46

    Please everyone,

    If you could extend prayers and well wishes to the Tornado victims in Iowa. 8 people have died and over 600 homes destroyed in a half mile wide tornado that went within 15 miles of my home…

    I know its no Tsunami or Hurricane, but a lotta people hurting right now in my home area.

  9. 9 Dennis Jr
    May 27, 2008 at 00:28

    @ Justin in Iowa!

    I am praying for you (and the people in Iowa) and I hope that your state gets resources from the Government….


  10. 10 Amy
    May 27, 2008 at 00:44

    @ Justin,

    The tornado victims are in our thoughts and prayers. I grew up in Illinois so I know all about tornados. I’ve even been through a few. Be safe!

    Amy in Beaverton, Oregon

  11. 11 Zak
    May 27, 2008 at 00:51

    Yes indeed sympathies to all our tragedy victims. I was thinking of them when I wrote the piece above. Sorry to see the serious devastation of those twisters. Hope you have a speedy recovery.

  12. 12 Dennis Jr
    May 27, 2008 at 01:14

    About the darkside of the internet….that is children, should have limited access or used under the control and advisement of an adult.


  13. 13 Dennis Jr
    May 27, 2008 at 01:33

    I want to further the topic that was started by JUSTIN FROM IOWA…

    About the horrible weather in the United States during the past several days…By looks of things….it could be a very bad year for tornadoes….

    Hurricanes season in the Atlantic Ocean system, start on 1 June 2008…Everyone in the media and the hurricane advisory centres are saying it could be a busy season….Which means….The Gulf Coast of the United States of America [Mississippi, which interest of full disclosure: i have family that leaves there] and also people that reside in Florida [i have friends from that state.]


    Again, for my friend, Justin in Iowa…Please accept my prayers and


  14. May 27, 2008 at 02:06

    Seems dead in here tonight. I am actually only able to stop in for a second. But here is something that maybe people might like to kick around.

    So I am talking with a friend of mine recently. I said that if it were up to me everybody on welfare would have to give up something to get it. I said in this country you are guaranteed rights and freedoms from government intervention. However that lack of intervention should go both ways. I said that the US has the capacity to help, but requiring public assistance should be looked upon as a loan. But instead of giving up money, you have to give up rights. Women should have to get a removable birth control. There are in testing similar options for men. Everybody on the system should be required to take drug tests randomly. The idea should be to make government assistance so cumbersome that people want to get off of it. You want your rights and privacy back? Then get off the system.

    I could see an adjacent argument from those who might think this is unfair. It targets people who are already disadvantaged. I will leave it to somebody else to make those points. But by allowing them an option that lets them continue to stay disadvantaged, are we really helping them?

  15. May 27, 2008 at 02:15

    The UN nuclear watchdog, the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), has said it believes Iran is still withholding information on its nuclear programme. It has expressed serious concern about Tehran’s alleged weapons development studies.

    What should be done to get Iran cooperate fully with the IAEA before the escalation of worse relations of Iran with the international community?
    Can further economic sanctions to make Iran more cooperative?

  16. 16 Will Rhodes
    May 27, 2008 at 02:26

    @ Dwight

    I am not sure about the US and how their ‘welfare’ works – but in the UK and Canada you pay a certain amount of your wage to the government so you can then receive benefits if and when you lose your job.

    So if you are paying in before why is it a loan? Surely that is an insurance or investment for you?

    The systems are not perfect – but as a safety net they should work.

  17. May 27, 2008 at 02:32

    @ Iran. I think we should threaten them. If that doesn’t work we should stop selling them US goods. If all else fails I think we should start a massive advertising campaign selling military service to anybody who can’t afford to pay for college. Once we get enough of them committed I think we should send them to war in Iran. We’ll figure out exactly what equipment they will need once they get there.

    Then again, who cares what the IAEA says anyway. Those morons couldn’t find any weapons in Iraq even though everybody knew Saddam had them. Sure there had never been a test, nor any sign of a centrifuge cascade, nor any documented evidence, but we all know he had them. He managed to get them smuggled out through Syria and Iran. He couldn’t manage to get himself smuggled out, but giant radio active nuclear weapons, they went right past the US military. Just ignore the IAEA.

  18. May 27, 2008 at 02:41

    @ what you are describing is called “unemployment”. The way it works here in the US, your employer pays into unemployment like an insurance policy. It is a pretty hefty fee. If they lay somebody off or enough people off, the employers unemployment insurance goes up the next year. That is not what I am talking about. You can get up to 26 weeks of unemployment. They have been known to extend it up to 52 weeks.

    No I am talking about the kind of help from the government that comes from not working at all. Actual income. It comes in forms of everything from plain cash to food stamps, grants, reduced or free housing, and other benefits. Generally it is given to women based on a per child incentive plan.

  19. 19 Zak
    May 27, 2008 at 03:20

    @Seems dead in here tonight That’s what that @ symbol says to me. It’s as significant as the inet domain that’s normally behind it. Perhaps I’m a little biased because my brother in law wrote the original code for DNR, or internet domains. Paul Vixie is a millionare off the royalties , and he uses it like a ball and chain to keep his family feeling endowed to him, my sister and my 4 neices and nephews. It just makes me think of a bad reference: so @ IAEA,
    Then again, who cares what the IAEA says anyway. Those morons couldn’t find any weapons in Iraq… Thanks Dwight, nuff said.

    Can we not all suggest topics; would be a suggestion. I started one above for instance that really does engender what Justin is going through in sentiment as well as reaching out across the globe. In order for order to come from chaos here people are going have to respect a topic and if you don’t have anything to say about it then say that. It’s better than just letting it sit there like a child with a dunce cap on.

    Personally I really had a blast with that Bond Novel segment, please read it, or my posts around it. They’re guaranteed to make you laugh at least, and humor is good for the soul.

  20. 20 Justin from Iowa
    May 27, 2008 at 04:03


    As much as I appreciate and respect the nod to my heads up about the tornados in Iowa (and there were over 100 tornadoes in the midwest this weekend, so its not just my area that is suffering right now) I don’t think the “night editor” segment is about talking about a single point. Its more of a brainstorm of topic points to give WHYS ideas to help them kickstart their official topics of the day when they get to work in the morning, and to let us continue discussion on topics that normally wouldn’t get any updates over the UK evening hours because everyone is asleep. So I appreciate your zeal in wanting to have your specific points discussed, but I don’t think you can hold anyone else to that really when that isn’t the purpose of the night editor segment…

    and I could be way off base here, this is just how I interpreted things to be.

  21. 21 Zak
    May 27, 2008 at 04:17

    Maybe I should define the question more clearly because to me in this world on all this depends: Whether another potential tyrant has been thwarted in spite of himself.

    In control of the country of China with more people than any other the president has made a ruling. A somewhat subjective ruling, but the question is will it effect China to the positive extent of swaying the leadership away from the kind of practice it has been engaging in. Examples are: jailing people for nonsense crimes, trying to subjugate Tibet by force, firing squad type executions without due process, backing violent movements in Sudan, or governments like Myanmar.

  22. 22 Dennis Jr
    May 27, 2008 at 04:21

    To whom it may concern:

    Regarding WELFARE aka/dba PUBLIC ASSISTANCE….

    I can write about this programme: In the United States of America, State of New York and the county of St. Lawrence County…

    in most parts of the State of New York, Social Services are under the umbrella of the Department of Social Services [i do not know what New York City]….

    Social Services was once an agency that gave people
    1] financial resources for daily living [from housing assistance]
    2] food [food stamps : that is where you can go to the grocery store and used your BENEFIT CARD aka MEDICAID in NEW YORK STATE]
    3]medical care under the MEDICAID system
    4]child protection [ranging from child care to foster care]

    Among others things until 1996, when the Former President Bill Clinton, sign “Welfare reform”

    When the “WELFARE REFORM BILL” was sign in 1996, it meant a no-longer an automatic free-ride for the benefactors of the system!

    i am including a couple of links, i hope that work:

    if you have any questions about this problem, i know about
    the welfare system–i had many relatives on it over the past 30 years….

    Madrid, U.S.A.

  23. 23 Pangolin
    May 27, 2008 at 04:58

    @Tornados and severe weather- Here in California we are slowly getting used to the idea that if you build in a fire zone your building needs to be fireproof and if you build in an earthquake zone you need to build a house with a good suspension. We’ve learned to build well back from eroding cliffs on the seaside as things can happen “faster than expected.” What can be done to make houses tornado resistant? I get that tornado proof limits one to earth bermed bunkers (very energy efficient though) but losing every building in site along with some of the residents seems a little extreme.

    @Dwight- The reason that means testing welfare recipients doesn’t work is that some people are only marginally functional in a technological economy. When the government and corporations insist upon hiring from overseas rather than training local people it does get hard for those with disabilities to get a job.

    @Iran- The saber rattling against Iran is just stupidity at the behest of Israel. Sure we could all have a nice fat bit of bomb dropping, missile lobbing and Straights of Hormuz mining but when that’s all done the world economy will be deep in the cesspool.

    @Everyone not from the US- despite what you might see on the corporatized media the US populace is not just hum-dandy ready for another war or actually convinced that the one we’ve got going was anything but a disaster. Memorial Day in the US is where the politicians glorify war while the dead soldiers provide fertilizer for very expensive lawns.

  24. 24 Zak
    May 27, 2008 at 06:51

    In response to the first point made above this is from the podcast Living On Earth that I wrote about over the weekend:

    Apparently the newest eco-building material is the huge steel shipping containers that go out of use. People are now building them into houses. Apparently they can withstand 175 mph winds. There’s pics of the houses in the stories on LOE’s website.

    There’s also links on that website to manufacturers who are dealing these containers. It would really work well to defend against tornados and you have a premade basement shelter right there. Considering the cost of building a basement new that could be a real good deal, especially if you or someone you know is a welder. Otherwise you could just buy 2 and lay them on their side, then have them sealed and an entrance hole cut without too much cost. A little concrete around the base could seal the containers solid.

  25. 25 John in Germany
    May 27, 2008 at 10:07

    Means testing works here in Germany, it is not perfect but certainly provides good guide lines in the supporting arena.

    Of course we have people that would rather be on the Dole (support) than going to work. They can laze around the whole day and live just as well as a person that works. Due to the pressure from lobbyists, the payments to single parent families(child allowance) is probably going to be increased (the family minister has 6 children). It is quiet possible that some ladies, children, have children so that they get the better support.

    Those that want to work here, are finding that the educational qualifications are being set much to high, at the rate things are going, a high school education will be needed to get a job as a rubbish operator. (before i am accused of being high nosed, just an example). A the same time lot of trades men are complaining that some youths applying for work, do not have the basic requirements in maths and there own language.

    Benefits are an entitlement here, and were paid for when working for the pensioners, and ones self, for unemployment benefits, health insurance, ECT, It is worth noting that the employer also pays into these systems, for his employees.

    John in Germany.

  26. 26 Mohammed Ali
    May 27, 2008 at 10:17

    Just this morning I read on the BBC that Israel has ‘150 Nuclear Weapons’. This comment was made by US President Jimmy Carter in a press conference at the annual literary Hay Festival in Wales. He also said that Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians is one of the worst human right crimes on earth. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7420573.stm
    A country like Israel which is constantly at war with its neighbour has such a huge pile of nuclear weapons, shouldn’t it be worrisome for everybody? Shouldn’t we look at the issue of nuclear weapons objectively or should we allow pro-western countries to possessed nuclear weapons and countries which are view as “Anti-Western” not to.
    The fact that Israel like Iran has never admitted to having nuclear weapons should be treated the same way as any other country in the same situation.
    I think both countries’ nuclear weapons issue shuold treated and discussed with equal magnitude.

  27. 27 Virginia Davis
    May 27, 2008 at 10:28

    OK folks. I am now a senior citizen. My fixed income comes from Social Security, a monthly PERS stipend (State of Oregon civil service benefit) and income from the rental unit in the house which the mortgage company and I own.

    In January of 2002 I was forced to resign from state civil service. (My boss, the State Registrar, died in an accidental fall in February of 2000.) I hung on for almost two years. The new Registrar did not like me, she demoted me, and hired a woman who became my day to day boss. I struggled but got no help from anyone, including the union or Vocational Rehabilitation which is mandated to assist the disabled in maintaining a job.

    Finally, in December of 2001, I snatched a piece of paper from the hand of the woman who had become my boss because she was nasty about its contents – I had written the copier contractor in response to a Xmas business letter to let her know she would be dealing with this new person from now on and btw Merry Xmas. My new “boss” accused me of physical violence against her.

    In early January I was told I’d have to take an anger management course to stay employed. So I got angry and quit.

    (It turned out later than the way I was then recording time away from work for sick leave was coded in such a way that in March or so I would have called in “sick” with a depressive episode – which the former Registrar had allowed – and I would have been told I had no more leave and if I did not come to work, I would be characterized “insubordinate.”)

    I went on unemployment and started to do job searches. I sued the Department of Human Services. I was advised to apply for Social Security Disability which I did. My unemployment ran out and I never even got one job interview. It took me two years to complete my law suit against the State – we settled out of court.
    The State paid me $25,000. I had paid my law firm $15,000 up front and they gave me $10,000 pro bono.

    I believe my boss who died would have been proud of me. I am no longer a victim. After the the days in which the new Registrar deposed to my lawyer, a great weight lifted off me.

    The State, on behalf of the Feds, granted me SSD. I began accumulating $ after my freshman year in high school for SSD. And that’s been half my income since the spring of 2002.

    I no longer work.

    SSDI is Social Security Disability Income. SSD is Social Security Disability. Both have to be “awarded.”

    Part of my legal settlement is an outline of how the State has to treat “crazies.”
    In the hiring and accommodation process. The last point is: Should you be sane when you go to work for the State of Oregon, and they drive you insane – eg. a diagnosis, counseling and/or meds – the State has to start with you from point one as a disabled person.

    I’ve done a variety of volunteer work since leaving State civil service.

    I read today in The Portland Tribune a feature story about how some women in State prison are being trained to be licensed opticians. And the recidivism rate is one of the lowest in the 50 States.

    Everyone needs a meaningful daytime activity.

    Virginia, Portland, OR

  28. 28 Mohammed Ali
    May 27, 2008 at 10:33

    @Dwight, did I hear you say that the IAEA did not find nuclear weapons in Iraq and yet Saddam had some? So if the IAEA lied about Saddam not having nuclear weapons, who proved them wrong? Did the Americans and the British with all of their sophistications find any nuclear weapons in Iraq, the purpose for which tehy went to war? We need to be fair with ourselves and do justice to this forum.

  29. May 27, 2008 at 10:38

    Regarding the child protection issue: Here’s a lament for the children of Nigeria…

  30. May 27, 2008 at 10:52

    It is Children’s Day in Nigeria today by the way…

  31. May 27, 2008 at 11:05

    Hi Dwight
    ”No outsiders” or “suspect insiders” warned Iranian Leader Seyed Ali Khamenei last Wednesday, tightening his hold on the close-knit ruling clique in Iran. Tehran also refuses to acknowledge the findings of the damning IAEA report.
    I for one am immensely indebted to ‘Have Your Say’ for breaking new ground and promoting dialogue with Tehran in the media.
    The program has covered so many aspects of the nuclear issue. Russia has been instrumental in building and equipping the Bushehr Nuclear Power Plant. Should Washington bomb Moscow?
    The Mideast is an intricate issue, including the Islamic agenda. Syria, Lebanon and Iraq are inter-related. The solution may be to integrate them even further, bringing sunnis and shias under one banner. Moderation comes with security. Toleration is currently in short supply.
    Thirty years after the Islamic Revolution, still little progress in Iran, US, European dialogue. Tehran is also worried at the outcome of the November US presidential elections. The issue is not so simple.
    We must embark on confidence building measures. See what happened to 100,000 Burmese who pleaded and craved help for three weeks before succumbing to pain, starvation and death. The military simply refused to budge. Dialogue broke down, they feared invasion and refused access to relief agencies.
    What are we to do with 2 million Afghan refugees in Iran? Should we gun them down because Afghan warlords are fanatic zealots? We are certainly not going to deliver them or deport and expose them to further bloodshed and carnage.

  32. 33 John in Germany
    May 27, 2008 at 11:14

    Just read the lament and do not wonder, just get mad.

    We write, debate, answer, listen, and consider. Sorry but keep getting the same answer in my head. What is the matter with our democratic leaders?. Why are they not capable of dealing with such debunk leaders of such countries. Why do they find a thousand reasons not to help, and not even one good one to stop the criminal treatment of not only children, but those that they are committed to-to help and nourish. Why?

    i cannot hear these pathetic excuses any more, like small children caught pinching a sweet from mums box. How would they react if it were their children?. How would they react if it were their daughters being gang raped by some UN soldiers. Thank heaven it is only a bad few, and not a majority of soldiers. As an Ex Soldier i can say, we looked after children as best we could, no matter where.

    We can hit Mars, to find out if there is life, but are not capable of protecting the young life’s on our own planet. What a World.

    John in Germany.

  33. May 27, 2008 at 12:21

    This caught my eye. Young minorty leaders from Europe go to meet the US state department – in a plant to reach out to Muslims abroad and soften their view of the US. Is this the way forward or it just propaganda?


    “American embassies have been instructed to court second- and third-generation immigrants from North Africa, Turkey or Pakistan. The International Visitor Leadership program, whose past beneficiaries included President Nicolas Sarkozy of France and Prime Minister Gordon Brown of Britain, have sharpened a focus on young Muslims.”

  34. 35 steve
    May 27, 2008 at 12:34

    For “hating” and being “at war” with Muslims, in the US, we sure have a lot of Muslims here. I live within a 5 minute walk of two Halal grocery stores.

  35. 36 John in Germany
    May 27, 2008 at 13:29

    There are Muslims, and Muslims.
    John in Germany

  36. May 27, 2008 at 14:45

    @ Irans nuclear comments- I was being sarcastic for the record. lol, I do it a lot. doesn’t seem to come across on print as well. For the Bush administration to act upon the findings of the IAEA would be hypocritical at the very least. They would first need to grovel at their feet and say, “sorry we told the world you guys had become irrelevant.” Even with the information, what can be done about it. We have an example of what won’t work. Iran has enough trading partners in the area to sustain itself. As far as the US is concerned it is an issue that will have to at the very least wait until a change in the administration.

    @ Virgina, – Sounds to me like you should have taken the anger management course. Lol. The point is this. There is a cumbersome argument about people on the fringes of program improvements. There are deserving people who will find life near impossible during the change, and there will be people who will find ways to exploit the new system. In this case there are issues of defining mental health and disabilities. Also the understanding of age discrimination. I am glad to see you are finding a rhythm again. Stories like yours are important in understanding the impact of system change, but that shouldn’t stop us from trying to improve it. This includes addressing Pangolin’s point about other poor government policies. The attitude towards immigration, trade, and education must also be adjusted with changes such as welfare reform. It has been because it is such an all encompassing task that it has proven to be nearly impossible for a bureaucracy like the one here in the US. “The journey of a thousand miles starts with one step.”

  37. 38 selena
    May 27, 2008 at 17:50

    @ Dwight

    Just so you know you are not alone, I recognized that your were speaking tongue in cheek about Iran and Iraq. 😉

  38. 39 Virginia Davis
    May 28, 2008 at 05:40


    Thanks. I spent a lot of my life “against” the system. Many of the issues re mental health which were radical are now mainstream. Particularly around pharmaceuticals. Check out “mindFreedom” on the internet for where some of my former colleagues still are “in struggle.”

    Two women (both of whom had been confined and met in a hospital) and both of whom suicided gave a seminar in San Francisco called “What You Always Wanted to Know About Psychosis And Were Afraid to Ask” which was one of the beginnings of “mental patient liberation” in the Bay Area. The seminar was for shrinks.

    Madness Network News (accordion player walking by down on the street) shrink did what he called “negative literature searches” ie what went wrong, not right, in drug trials. Periodical I helped found came out of Bay Area for 14 years or so.

    Thanks again.

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