Today the British parliament votes on whether to cut the age-limit for abortions from 24 weeks to 20. One newspaper columnist has called it ‘the greatest threat to women’s rights in the past 20 years’. It’s raised the broader issue of whether when women should be able to have an abortion, and under what circumstances. A quick blog and news search shows this issue remains as current as it’s always been. I’d welcome your comments. Do you want new legislation in your country, and if you do, what would would it say?
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BBC World Have Your Say 
I would like legislation to see the father have more of an equal say in an abortion situation.
I would also not mind the limit being reduced from 24 to 20. 20 weeks is more than enough time to find out your pregnant and weigh your immediate selfish wants and needs over a human life (or potential human life, depending on which side of the argument you are on).
Circumstances, as always, are filled with grey areas.
Regards,
Brett ~ Richmond, Va.
In many parts of the United States, it is difficult to get an abortion. Clinics closed or too far away. State legislation making it difficult. For myself, I do not believe in abortion; however it is and should be a choice. And I agree with Brett that fathers should be part of the decision-making.
George W. Bush’s first piece of legislation was to deny WHO funding for abortions; I began that January to send my monthly donation to the UN to support abortion funding that the US would not. And I wrote the President and told him so.
Virginia in Oregon
It’s kinda of ironic that the courts will say parental notification is an undue burden (consent isn’t required, just notification) in case of abortion for minor girls, yet that same girl couldn’t even get stitches in an Emergency room, bleeding profusely, without parental CONSENT. Someone has an agenda here. In NO other case can a minor get medical treatment without parental consent (or that of an adult relative), yet with abortion they cannot even be required to do just notification.. Interesting..
First, more or less in response to Brett’s sentiment, I don’t think any man should have say in this matter because it’s precisely because of men that we need to keep abortion laws intact. It’s my body, my life and my conscience at stake. People too often use children to create a permanent tie to someone against their will. Although people think of women entrapping men, men have been guilty of this with women for millenia. If I don’t want to be tied to a man for the rest of my life because of a child, I have the right to keep that from happening. It’s about power and rights.
I don’t care what they say, but this whole 20 weeks versus 24 weeks is totally arbitrary. Now, I don’t live there so I don’t know all the ins and outs of what’s been happening, but it sounds like the British are dealing with the problem of “too many abortions” with knee-jerk legislation. Besides, how many is too many abortions? Why is this a problem? Is anyone first examining the social causes before merely limiting women’s rights? If Britain doesn’t want women to abort children, then maybe it ought to support mothers better. I don’t think the French are having this problem or the Swedes, for that matter. Maybe there’s something to borrow from these other cultures.
I don’t think any man should have say in this matter because it’s precisely because of men that we need to keep abortion laws intact. It’s my body, my life and my conscience at stake.
Thats wonderful, but its not YOUR child. It is both you (the mother) and the fathers child. Furthermore, it is the father’s life, and the fathers conscience as well.
People too often use children to create a permanent tie to someone against their will.
Like….. Child support? Women do it every day. Women don’t want that tie, but they want that check. It’s the man that’s tied permanently.
Although people think of women entrapping men, men have been guilty of this with women for millenia.
So it makes it alright to turn the tables now and give women 100% sole power over the decision of a child created by two people. Its either the woman doesn’t want the child, so the father has no say, get rid of it. Or the woman wants the child, and a manicured hand-out in 9 months.
Either way, the male has NO rights. He has no say in whatever decision the female makes about the fate of his own child, he has very little say in the slim chance that he will get custody if it comes down to that.
There is complete inequality all across the board.
If I don’t want to be tied to a man for the rest of my life because of a child, I have the right to keep that from happening. It’s about power and rights.
And keeping all of that power on your side of the court.
@ Maria
Yet you can force him to pay child support, yet it’s entirely your decision… Having your cake and eating it too.. That’s pretty selfish that you’d kill your child so you dont’ have to be “tied to a man for the rest of your life”.
It is really a shameful thing to have an abortion since the baby is like you people deciding to have an abortion. I my country Sudan is illegal I strong advise those want it to leave the idea.
Mut Benson
Abortion is one of the contentious issues regarding women’s rights. The reasons behind it are many, not taking into account the obvious ones like rape and health concerns. Some women argue that they can’t cope with having a child because of the responsibilities that entails, jeopardizing their freedom and also their budgets.
In societies where there is sexual freedom and where single mothers have become the norms, abortion is concerned with personal choice as abortion can be seen as synonym to contraception.
In traditional society, especially in Muslim countries, abortion is prohibited by religion as that is seen as ending a human life. But many unmarried pregnant women resort to abortion to avoid embarrassment in their surrounding. An unmarried woman with a child is seen as immoral and even as a mere prostitute. There have been incidents of abortions leading to death and infirmity as they are carried out in backstreet “clinics” and in secret, sometimes through the use of traditional methods.
In Morocco, abortion is illegal, except in cases where the life of the mother is in danger. There are no abortion clinics as it is in countries legalizing abortion. Here it’s only women getting pregnant outside marriage who resort to abortion. Married women never try abortion as they consider children as a gift from God. The use of contraceptives by married women is common.
In Morocco, there have been cases in which unmarried young women died because of resorting to traditional methods for abortion. Doctors were also tried at courts for carrying abortion without having the licence and the training to do so, because their actions led to the death of the pregnant woman.
Abortion remains problematic for the mothers. They have to choose between carrying it out and accepting the baby with all its consequences. One way to lessen the frequency of abortion is sexual education.
When there are two evils, we should choose the lesser. Between adoption and abortion, society should decide. Abortion shouldn’t after all become an automatic act. Each time a woman is pregnant, she can resort to abortion. There should be laws regulating it guaranteeing the rights of the child and the mother alike.
My contribution to this topic will be founded on fundamental human right of an individual. It is trite that right from creation, every man reserves the unequivocal right to live his life the way and manner he deems proper and pleasing to him. In addendum also any who is assigned any work be you a proffesional or otherwise, is obliged to execute such with reasonable care while having the backing of the law, which within the ambit of his duty can be termed as "right". Thus in applying the above princple to the case of this young boy, although the doctor have the right within the scope of their duty to decide on the case of the lad. But be it as it may, the lad has an exclusive, fettered right handed over to him right from the day he started providing rational answers to questions put to him and making rational contributions regarding his environment. This right overrides that of doctors and his parents in taking decision as
regards the lad's soujour in this world. OKOYE MICHAEL ZAMFARA STATE NIGERIA
I do not believe it is too easy to obtain an abortion her in the United States. I understand that men think it is wrong that a woman can choose to keep or abort her child but he has no say. I believe it is a woman’s body and choice to have an abortion. Some women do not believe in abortion and will keep a child regardless of the situation and others will have an abortion without thinking about the consequences. I think most women don’t care about a man’s view because even if he has to pay child support, it doesn’t compare to the sacrifices the woman must make. (I am talking about mature women that actually take care of their kids, not the females that have kids but make their parents or grandparents raise them)
I don’t think it sensible to forbid abortion completely; but on the other hand I don’t see why the woman alone should always decide if it should happen.
Women should have the only say about abortion in pregnancies arising from incest or rape. In all other pregnancies I think the father should be entitled to an equal voice, and perhaps one other family member or more could also be party to the decision (on the understanding that they are prepared to look after the child if the mother doesn’t want to). But it should typically be a family decision, not an individual one.
The state also has a legitimate general interest in making abortion more or less restrictive according to prevailing social circumstances. The risk of severe overpopulation in a country like China points to lax abortion regulations and greater choice for women; the falling populations of Western Europe and North America point to more stringent abortion laws and qualified choice for women.
Hello to all of you my Precious friends… In Iraq abortion is illegal and a criminal act except for therapeutic reasons that require an urgent termination of pregnancy…. At least there’s one Iraqi legislation that I as an Iraqi citizen can be really sooooo proud of… With my love. Yours forever, Lubna.
I understand that men think it is wrong that a woman can choose to keep or abort her child but he has no say.
On the flip side, you don’t think it’s wrong that a woman can choose to keep or abort his child without him having a say in it?
It is every bit as much his child than it is hers.
I have never heard a pro abortion argument that wasn’t childishly self absorbed. Basically, some women get to be so selfish, so self absorbed, that they’ll kill their own children, because having one, owning up to their volutional actions, is inconvenient for them. Then the argument, “oh, it’s just a bunch of cells!”. That’s the same argument the nazis used about the Jews. If something isn’t “human” to you, it makes it easier to kill.
I must admit that it goes two ways. He has the choice later on to get out of the situation. A woman is stuck but a man is not stuck. I can see your point if you are dealing with responsible guys but many guys are not. I think it is unfortunate that some guys have really been hurt when someone got an abortion, but there are way too many guys out there that are not responsible. A child needs alot more than child support from a father and many males do not supply what is needed. You may be a person who would be a great father but 20 other guys would not.
Firstly let me say that I am fervent pro-choice!
But I have to agree with Brett here. It takes two to make a child so both should have a say in what happens. It is a contentious subject because that child has to grow for a long while inside a women, and a woman that could well not want the child.
Is it too easy? Difficult, but I do think that before having an abortion there should be very quick psychological help for the woman because I do not believe that abortion should be after the first 12 weeks of that pregnancy. Even that may be too long.
Of course if the woman’s life is under threat that should be between her and her Dr.
@Angela
How is a woman stuck but a man not? A man cannot force a financial obligation on a woman. If he doesn’t pay, she gets ajudgment against him, his paycheck can be garnished, he gets bad credit, etc. I’ve heard plenty of stories about women getting out of the situation, such as abandoning their kids on doorsteps, throwing them away in dumpsters (remember the University of Delaware incident?), drowning kids in bathtubs, drowning them in cars in an lake.. The list goes on.
“A child needs alot more than child support from a father and many males do not supply what is needed”
Maybe women should stop having sex with thugs? That would be responsbile though.
It should be easy to get birth control, morning after pills, condoms etc…… first and foremost- plus education, education education! I know I’m a broken record on this topic- but every teenager should know how ovulation cycles work, when a female is most likely to become pregnant- stressing that it is most likely, although it can happen anytime!! Opting out of sex education shouldn’t be an issue or an option.
I do think this is more of a woman’s issue rather than a man’s since the woman bears the health risks and problems that can occur during pregnancy- but it takes 2 to tango- but a man does not have possible health complications if his girlfriend or wife is pregnant- only she bears that weight. (Literally and figuratively)
I have never been able to figure out why it is so completely one-sided though- if she wants to keep the child he pays child support for the next 20 years- if he wants the child and she doesn’t- tough luck??
Strange concept
I understand, Brett and Will, your desire to be a part of the life of a child whom you have had a hand in conceiving. You are to be commended for taking a position that should be a norm but clearly isn’t.
It is a rule of thumb that the man gets off scott free. The number of males that stick around during an unwanted pregnancy are so small as to be negligible. I will add that it seems to be getting better.
Self absorbtion is not unique to women, Steve. What about the self absorbtion of men on the prowl looking for sex, without a thought to the woman or the consequences?
I don’t agree with abortion but can readily understand why a woman would want one.
May I ask a question related, I think, to this issue?
In view of the societal view of abortion, should the government ensure that a child born with a disability is adequately looked after and has a good quality of life?
Unlike western world, In India its really very easy to have an abortion.
A woman’s decision to have a child or not holds no value.
People kill girls,and this has emerged as a major problem in the world.
Sex ratio in India is one of the least in the world.
I completely agree with you. There are many women that get themselves into the wrong situation. I personally would rather most of those women have an abortion than keep the child. Most of the times, the woman cannot support herself, her children, and make time to raise them. The children usually end up having kids, while their still kids, and then get on welfare or are out on the streets. However, many women in those situations don’t believe in abortion so they keep all of their kids, anyways.
I am not sure what policy would work. I can understand why some women would have an abortion when it was not planned because they want to be financially stable before having a child. However, I also don’t think it is good for some women to use abortion as a kind of birth control.
I don’t believe in abortion for myself, but someone else may have a good reason or some reason for having one.
I am totally pro choice. Women should be able to abort without concern for anyone else’s feelings, or thoughts, or magical beliefs, about the pregnancy.
For me, life begins when the pregnant person DECIDES to carry to full term.
In my opinion a woman should be able to have an abortion any time its safe to do so. Further as the woman mostly has the resposibility of caring and bringing up the child, she and only she should have the right in deciding to have an abortion or not. No Government, court or adoption agency should go against her wishes. Elias.
@ Angela
Why should the child have to suffer for the mother’s poor decisionmaking? It’s a hard argument to make “well, you’re better off dead than with me”..
@ Selena
“What about the self absorbtion of men on the prowl looking for sex, without a thought to the woman or the consequences?”
Unfortunately for women, and fortunately for men, women are the ones that get pregnant, hence women have to be extra cautious. Probably going home with some guy you don’t even know his name probably isn’t a wise idea, especially if too drunk to even ask for a condom to be used. Probably having sex with an ex con, or a guy on probation probably wouldn’t be a good decision either.
The sad part, is that some people will think I’m joking with my examples. If only I were..
@ Fortylegz
“I am totally pro choice. Women should be able to abort without concern for anyone else’s feelings, or thoughts, or magical beliefs, about the pregnancy.
For me, life begins when the pregnant person DECIDES to carry to full term.”
Fortunatley people like you don’t get to make the rules. In short “I can be as selfish as I want”, nothing matters but what I want. That’s a childish view you hold about abortion.
I think that having an abortion in the United States of America in
my opinion is easy and fair….
Dennis~~Madrid, U.S.A.
Abortion is a woman’s right and should be free and on demand worldwide. It isn’t.
@ Selena Jacobs
I understand, Brett and Will, your desire to be a part of the life of a child whom you have had a hand in conceiving. You are to be commended for taking a position that should be a norm but clearly isn’t.
It is a rule of thumb that the man gets off scott free. The number of males that stick around during an unwanted pregnancy are so small as to be negligible. I will add that it seems to be getting better.
Thank you for your kind remarks. It is as you and others have voiced incredibly unfortunate about the overwhelming number of men who are unwilling to help or leave a pregnant woman with the burden to carry alone. It gives all men a bad rep and I feel has unfortunately fostered the argument that it should be the womans sole decision.
For any women who are in the mindset that it does not matter and the man should have no say in it. Let me tell you, when it happened to me, it was the hardest and worst time in my life. Never before have I ever felt so powerless and helpless. It is mainly because of this, being through it all, and understanding every last emotion that accompanies it, that I feel this way.
To be there for your unborn child’s first ultrasound, to be a part of it all, have your hopes and dreams about what it will be like to be a father. Then to have it all ripped away from you because she simply changed her mind. No amount of pleading, no amount of discussing it will work, because all of the power and decision lies solely with the female.
I even offered and was completely willing and ready to take custody and responsibility of the child if things fell apart between us. Yet she went and got rid of it anyways.
I would never wish anyone else to go through that. Ever.
Regards,
Brett ~ Richmond, Va.
@ Brett
She sounds like a totally self absorbed person.
I submitted a reply earlier, it seems to have not made it by the sensors. I did use the words Orphism, member, and body fluid in what might be deemed a suggestive way. So I will refrain and try again.
Pregnancy is no mystery. Women and men alike need to make that “choice” before having sex. In a country where we quest for personal freedom, we are constantly asking the government to help us out when we make bad choices. Can’t stop from walking into places that the patrons choose to smoke, so you ask the government to ban smoking everywhere. Can’t stop spending more money then you make, ask the government to forgive your debts and let you go bankrupt. Can’t seem to stop having unprotected sex, get the government to pass a law that will let you kill the resulting baby. Look if you choose to jump out of a plane with out a parachute, know that the odds of surviving are against you. Yet the pro life would like to petition the government to line the country with soft bouncy materials to if they change their mind after making a dumb “choice” they won’t get hurt.
Science can’t tell us when life begins. So it is imperative we error on the side of caution. I am what some refer to as an atheist. Yet what amazes me is that through all of our advances in biotechnology, we still can’t take dirt and turn it into a life. We can’t even take it and turn it into a plant. It is ludicrous to me to think that up until 24 weeks and one second, we can kill that life form. (Like something happens magically at that one second. I say forget it. Why don’t we let women kill their children up to 24 months?) We can only assume it starts the second the seed enters the fertile environment. That is at conception.
Brett and others, you are 100% right. I once knew a guy who didn’t believe in abortion. His pregnant ex-girlfriend was extorting money from him by threatening to have the kid aborted. She eventually got the abortion. He is still paying for the car.
@ a policy. As middle ground I propose this. You are allowed one abortion in life. Every abortion procedure includes a snipping of the tubes. The only exception would be in cases of rape or incest. In that case a claim must be filed and charges brought. I am told that there is a big problem with rape and incest going unreported in this country, this would reduce this problem too.
In Canada it is indeed as easy as it’d get, Free and Quick.
Abortions would never be easy for anyone even if regulations stay completely out of it.
@Steve,
You say, “Fortunatley people like you don’t get to make the rules. In short “I can be as selfish as I want”, nothing matters but what I want. That’s a childish view you hold about abortion.”
Perhaps you should review the rules.
Rant. Rave. Call folks “childish,” “self absorbed,” and “poor decisionmakers.” Still women get to have abortions on demand, and guys like you get to pound sand.
@ Dwight
You are still putting all the onus on women. Somehow, you men just don’t get the history of women. 🙂
Would that things were as cut and dried as our sensibilities would like them to be.
Here’s an exercise for you and your contemporaries:
Ask the over sixties men on this blog what it was like for unwed mothers when they were young men. Some of them just might give you an honest answer.
And then look around and gaze upon what the opening up of society has done for young women today.
Then read what Steve thinks about young women.
OK that’s enough for starters. 🙂
@ Selena
That’s the point, the ultimate onus/responsibility is on women because they are the ones that get pregnant, hence they must use the ultimate in responsibility because they have that burden. They cannot rely on others to be responsible for them. It would be like me asking someone else to mail my tax return on April 15. Say if they don’t? It’s my responsibility to make sure it gets into the mailbox on April 15.
@ Fortylegz
Abortion on demand, being selfish, feeling no guilt, don’t reflect on me. If you can be heartless, and subject on someone what Brett had done, and feel “it’s my right, I’m entitled, to hell with anyone else” then I don’t need to say any more. You’ve already said it all.
@ Selena
I may be restating, But I have a background in system design. I am seeing a problem and examining the root cause. Problem: We don’t know when life begins, we know that separate an egg and a sperm do not every make a life. Together there is a 99% chance they will start the growing process. Known factors, we as a culture do not accept the termination of human life not judged to be a threat to society. The system breaks down at pregnancy. Stopping sex between irresponsible people seems to be an insurmountable task.
Anyway you look at it, abortions are the result of pregnancies. Hey you want to snip the father too? I would agree to that. If there is a valid way to prove that that embryo is belongs to an individual. I am sure as technology advances we could do that.
60 years ago were a time of turmoil and ignorance. Back people had to ride in different parts of a bus and eat at different. This is today. Today these ideals are no longer common. The way culture saw unwed mothers that far back is a moot point when making educational and policy arguments for the future. We could also ask about how many people in the family worked back then. How many children were required to perform manual agricultural duties before walking to school. “Up hill both way, through 6 foot of snow, fighting off ‘skeeters as big as choppers.” It was wrong. We now have a black man and a woman who can run for president with legitimate credibility.
It seems Steve’s views of young women are influenced by unhealthy media programming and probably personal experience based in some truth. We have a TV here where I work. One of the guys I work with loves the judge shows and afternoon talk circuses. If these people are not actors, then I am very afraid. The future of human existence depends on us finding a way to think deeper, more globally, and conduct ourselves with a greater understanding of the responsibility of our actions. If nothing else, abortion allows us to shirk that responsibility. It is kind of like getting a time out for stabbing your little brother in the eye with a pencil.
Hello, first let me say that I used to be adamantly pro-abortion. I could have told you all the lines: “It’s MY body”; “it isn’t a human being if it isn’t viable outside the womb”; “it is just a blob of cells”. I encouraged a friend to have an abortion (I am so glad she didn’t listen to me).
And then when I was 22, I had an abortion. At first I was relieved and even joked about it. But I kept thinking about it; was it a boy or a girl? What would it have been like to have a baby? About 6 months later I had a major bout of depression over it. Over the years I tried not to think about it, but it popped up in my head over and over, and I can say the only good thing about what I did is that it forced me to reexamine my beliefs. And even though I am a very politically liberal person (I am an environmentalist, I support human rights, I support gay rights, I support legalizing marijuana, etc.), I now part company with most of my friends regarding abortion.
It was not only “my” body; I created another life that was dependent on my body. It is not a “blob of cells”, it is a Developing Human Being. As for the “not human unless viable”, well, there’s a lame argument. Were babies born at 28 weeks say, 75 years ago, (that had no chance of survival), not human, but today, when nearly all babies are viable at that age; what, suddenly they are human? How about babies born at 24 weeks? Some survive and some don’t. Are some of them human and the others not? As medical science advances, the survival rate of very premature babies increases.
About a year and a half ago, a baby was born in Florida (and lived) after less than 22 weeks in the womb. She was conceived through in-vitro, so they knew the exact date of conception. You can readily get an abortion in America at well past that date. How can that possibly be “ok”? How can you say that a baby that is 21 weeks and 3 days is just a “fetus/blob of cells”, and the very next day (when what is now the earliest viable baby has been born), it is a human? How absurd.
We have a national schizophrenia here: We spend millions and millions of dollars saving premature babies in this country, because human life is precious and valuable. But then we allow the killing of babies the same age.
How about:
Abortions for the “wrong” sex. How do “pro-choicers” reconcile selectively killing girls?
Abortions for disabilities. Should disabled people not be born? Should Stephen Hawkings have been aborted? I read in the newspaper about a woman who herself had been born with an extra finger, and had 2 abortions when ultrasounds revealed the same (easily fixed, non-life-threatening) disability in her in-utero children! Get rid of all deaf people? Blind people? Should anyone less than perfect not be allowed to live? (The Nazis would be so proud).
If you support abortion “rights”, you support the rights of women to have abortions of viable babies, of girls, of the disabled. And that is a fact. If you have had a child and seen ultrasound images of your child, heard your child’s heartbeat while you were pregnant, I ask you: At what point would it have been “ok” to end your child’s life?
As I stated, I support human rights, and to me the most basic human right is the right to be born.
If you support abortion, I ask you to have the COURAGE to go on-line and look at aborted fetuses. Know what it is you really support, not just an abstract “I’m a liberal so I support abortion rights”. Know that there is a heartbeat at 3 or 4 weeks, and measurable brain waves at 6 weeks. Take a look! Even take a look at books in the library or on-line that show not aborted fetuses, but just fetal development. Those “blobs of cells” look pretty human quite early on. I found some good info on fetal development at: pregnancy.org. But there are lots and lots of sites with nice in-utero baby picts. Also interesting…when I was looking up the gestation period of the girl in Florida, I came across http://www.clinicquotes.com/california.htm which has transcripts from court proceedings that include some of the most frank testimonials of “partial birth” abortions from the doctors who provide them.
Again, I chose (note word) to give my only child up for adoption. On my other hand, I am pro-choice. Her father’s response was: “We’ll get married.” I refused (in my mind she was not planned; neither her father or I were ready to be parents) and he did not ask again. When I first heard from my daughter, I called his home and asked him if I could give her his address. And now they know each other; her half-brother visited her the week-end before we met for the (second) time. I am reminded of Dylan’s “Simple Twist of Fate.” One of her careers is writing children’s books: she has three scheduled for publication in 2010. In her case, both nature and nurture were +.
Dwight’s set of comments are good. Brett’s experience is horrific. Anne’s comments are a good set of pro-life statements. How much impact did my college’s Catholic doctor’s abortion failure slides have on me? For me, life begins at conception.
All in all, I find it curious that the majority of the women do not acknowledge that pregnancy is, for the most part, an act between two people. And that one is the father.
I don’t accept the present relationships between men and women as the way things should be. Where is RESPECT? How will conception become more than “an accident?” If a pregnancy is not mutual? Lubna is right, for her own reasons, to be proud of pro-life laws.
I, too, watch the TV judge shows and the attitudes are scary.
However, I still believe in positive and responsible relationships. And quite agree with “sex education.” Women’s history is unfortunate. But not to believe in a way forward and treating sexual partners with respect and a resulting conception as a mutual problem….. To insist that a decision for abortion is a women’s sole right, is to my mind, wrong and leaves the whole messy situation exactly as it is and single motherhood some sort of shrine.
Not raising my own child was a loss to me. But she was “ours” and I was clear she needed two parents. And that I was not ready to be a mother, nor her father a father.
Virginia in Oregon
@ Anne
I’m glad you brought up the “it’s my body” argument. While technically a fetus is a parasite, requiring the mother, it’s not part of her body, as you rightly noted. Even in law, there is a common rule that people have no property rights in their body, hence while there are laws forbidding people from selling their own organs. So if you cannot sell your kidney, how can you abort something that isn’t even you?
It is quite ironic that in places like India, women are aborting away future feminists.
In Canada, a woman can technically have an abortion even nine months into her pregnancy. Granted, it may be difficult to find a doctor willing to perform one that far along, but legally, there is nothing to stop it.
I think even those who are pro-choice would still feel there is something wrong with having an abortion at that late stage.
I don’t see anything wrong with setting a time restriction. If a woman is considering having an abortion, then she needs to make up her mind before she is XX weeks along.
After that point, she then has the option of carrying the baby to term and giving it up for adoption.
But it seems absolutely dreadful that a woman in Canada may have an abortion in the final trimester.
Not to mention the fact that if someone were to kill a pregnant woman, the killer would only be charged with *one* count of homicide…not two…even if the woman was eight or nine months pregnant (because of our abortion laws). I don’t think that’s right.
I wish our politicians would enact new legislation because our current lack of laws regarding abortion is appalling.
As a man I don’t feel qualified to make that decision. When my first wife got pregnant I was entitled to my opinion. We weren’t married at the time but even if we had been it still would ultimately have been her decision.
She made her choice and today I have two beautiful granddaughters because of it, but if she had chosen differently I would have had to accept it.
Five years later I got a vasectomy ~ my wife was entitled to her opinion but THAT choice was ultimately MINE to make and hers to accept.
And, personally, if a woman has to go to 20 weeks before she figures out she’s pregnant she’s got no business having children.
Brett ~ Richmond, Va.
After reading your many comments, which most of them are replies to womens comments concerning the right to a safe and legal abortion, it is easy to conclude that that you still have issues about the one woman in your life who did not do as you wanted, which was to carry a fetus to term against her will. When choosing a partner to have reproduce with, it is paramount that both people want to have children and to have children with that person. I said this to my sister’s first husband who chastised and then abandon her and their new born son because she “tricked and trapped him” into having a baby against his will. I strongly recommend to anyone who enters into a sexual relationship that things like get discussed before having sex – the leading cause of pregnacy.
Having an abortion, if you are the woman undergoing the decision-making and the process itself, is never easy. If you indulge in even a nano-second of self-reflection, if you think beyond the end of your nose, terminating a pregnancy, for whatever logical, practical, or otherwise desparately necessary reason, does not leave you. A woman carries an abortion to her grave.
Thus, any government interference is insult to injury, in my opinion. Insult to grievous spiritual, pyschic and emotional injury.
Lydia Nayo
Oakland, CA.
Glad to be back – after a long, long time! 😛
In Colombia, abortion under legal and medical consent became legal exactly one year ago. However, many people still prefer backstreet abortions: statistics show high numbers of abortions done under inappropriate conditions. Recently, a clinic which belongs to a catholic institution in the capital city, Bogotá, was sued because they refused to make this intervention – following their own principles – to a little girl that was raped. Later they were obbliged to include abortion in their services, what I think is terrible – to force other people to accept abortion!
Previously we had a passionate discussion about abortion, and if a foetus was a human being or a living thing. I still say YES, it’s a living thing, and no one has the right to destroy it because its parents have ‘the right to decide over their body’… Abortion is completely illegal in moral terms, and it should not be allowed in any society that wants to protect its member.
ABORTION IS AS UNFAIR AS CAPITAL PUNISHMENT – if they are not the same – AND WAR!!!
Hugs from Colombia.
🙂 I love you all, WHYS team, listeners and bloggers.
While I don’t agree that abortion should be used as a form of birth control I do think it needs to be an available option. I don’t have any problems with legislating restrictions to avoid such behavior.
I’d much rather see women not having unwanted children.
I know a woman that had no intention of ever having children but got pregnant and at the plea of her husband kept the child. He assured her that he would be there; he was in 100%. She chose not to terminate the pregnancy because she did feel like as a father he had a say in the matter although she still wanted the abortion. Less than a year later the father ran off and despite the court order for him to pay support he manages to avoid paying. Although she loves her child (who is now 16) very much she recently conceded that she still wished she would have terminated the pregnancy. Not everyone finds parenthood as rewarding as other people out there that want their children.
I’m just curious, is there any other species of animals that kills its young because they are inconvenient? I have heard of some that eat their young, but is it common?
@ Julie P:
After reading your many comments, which most of them are replies to womens comments concerning the right to a safe and legal abortion, it is easy to conclude that that you still have issues about the one woman in your life who did not do as you wanted, which was to carry a fetus to term against her will…
…I strongly recommend to anyone who enters into a sexual relationship that things like get discussed before having sex – the leading cause of pregnacy.
Sure I still have issues about the whole situation, I think anyone with half a conscious would. In my case, these things were discussed. And we had come to the conclusion it was something we both wanted, although I think neither of us had planned on it happening as soon as it did. Hence my comment about her ‘changing her mind’. Once we found out, we went about the planning, the doctor visits, and everything for weeks, then she woke up with a different outlook on things and made an appointment to have an abortion.
I completely agree with you on your comment that such things should be discussed before having sex.
@ Lydia
If you have a problem with government interference, why shouldn’t women be able to kill their babies up to six months after birth? If it’s completely her choice, she controls life or death, why shouldn’t she be able to kill her child until it’s able to crawl?
It’s very easy to have an abortion in my country,Even though Isalm prohibits abortion many local residence in Rhamu,Elwak, wajir,Garissa and many other towns in kenya do practice a bortion.I am advicing anyone not to do an abortion because it’s a big crime agianst humanity.
Some of the comments have been similar to “a women has to deal with her mistakes.” But really, both the father and the mother are responsible. It takes two people to get pregant; just because the women carries the child doesn’t mean that it’s her fault (if you want to place blame.) The father should have a say in the mother’s decision.
Also someone mentioned that underage girls can have abortions without her parents consent but needs their consent in order to get any other medical treatment. The reason that it’s set up like that (at least here in the US) is because, for some girls, her parents will disown her.
I think that even though it’s legal to get an abortion here, that doesn’t make it easy. Often there are protesters in front of the clinic that will be absolutly horrible to everyone that goes in.
In the end, it’s no one business what decisions a women in her doctor’s office.
Abortion in Liberia is one of the commonest thing I’ve ever seen in my whole life. It is posing serious threat to our young girls and is actually encouraging the increase rate of teenage pregnancy in the country. Most girls just go about having unprotected sex with the common saying that “if I get pregnant, I do abortion”. This is also helping the spread of HIV/AIDS.
our government needs to take strong action against this act or it will pose serious health problem for our sister in the future.
This is in continuation of the email I sent earlier. In India, abortion was illegal till 1971. The law now specifies conditions that must be met. The cap was 28 weeks, and with better neonatal facilities it has now been brought down to 20 weeks. The other conditions are in terms of safety norms.
There are around 6 million abortions in India annually. Docs say only some 600,000 are legal, in terms of safety norms and the extent of pregnancy. And there are also wilful abortion of a girl foettus. This mostly happens under cover, and the guess is it is rampant.
I am on the pro-choice side of the divide. Subject to medical advice, the woman should have the choice to have the baby or not. This extends backwards to the girl’s choice to conceive in the first place.
The moot point is (as John poined out earlier) why should a woman wait for as long as 20 weeks to know if she wants the baby; exception being a medical emergency when it should be pro-science rather than anything else.
Hello my Precious Ros : I’m a young Iraqi woman and a fourth year medical student… And I’m totally against any kind of abortion regardless of the gestational age EXCEPT for serious therapeutic conditions that require an urgent termination of pregnancy, period… With my love… Yours forever, Lubna…
@ Sarah in Ohio
“Also someone mentioned that underage girls can have abortions without her parents consent but needs their consent in order to get any other medical treatment. The reason that it’s set up like that (at least here in the US) is because, for some girls, her parents will disown her.”
Sarah, parents cannot “disown” a 15 year old girl. They are legally responsible for housing and providing for her until she’s 18 or gets married in a state that allows marriage under the age of 18.
Ignoring the argument about whether abortion should be a choice for the woman only or for both parents, I used to be a confirmed “pro choice” supporter. However, the situation no longer seems so black and white to me.
As has been noted already, babies which have grown for as little as 24 weeks in the womb now have about a 50/50 chance of survival. This certainly calls into question the ethics of abortion at 24 weeks.
However, cutting the legal limit to 20 weeks has it’s own problems. Certain procedures for testing the unborn child for birth defects (amniocentesis in particular) are not normally done before 15 weeks and can take 2-3 weeks to produce results. This could lead to some very rushed decisions.
Between advances in keeping pre-mature babies alive and other progress in foetal testing for defects, timing is becoming a very real problem.
@ Sarah again:
“I think that even though it’s legal to get an abortion here, that doesn’t make it easy. Often there are protesters in front of the clinic that will be absolutly horrible to everyone that goes in.”
Wow, people confronting you about what you’re about to do. Everyone should be protected from the consequences of their choices. To hell with the first amendment! We should also ban any kind of protests anywhere else because of how it makes the people being protested against feels. Wouldn’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings! After all, we are all little children needing to be protected from the mean bad people!
“In the end, it’s no one business what decisions a women in her doctor’s office.”
Say if they conspire to kill people? Say if the doctor recommends something illegal? Say if the woman decides to have sex with her doctor? That’s right, it’s nobody’s business what happens between a woman and her doctor. I’m also all for boob jobs. If you’re dumb enough to put foreign objects into your body for the most superficial of reasons, then that should be nobody’s business but you and your doctor SO LONG as you waive right to any lawsuits against the doctor or manufacturer. Why should the law protect you from making idiotic decisions?
@ steve and other species.
Yes many species the young must be kept from the father or he will eat them. Most “pack” structured animals have a dominate male that breeds with all of the females. When a new leader takes control he often kills all nursing young. Females will not go into heat if they are nursing. The new leader wants to ensure his genes are spread throughout the pack. On a discovery show call “Mir Cat Manor”. One of the young female Mir Cats went “Ho’ing” around with a different pack. She got pregnant. The head female tried to let her keep them. But half way through the season the alpha female took the babies out of the den and killed them. There wasn’t enough food to go around.
So as I have asserted before, the animal kingdom does some heinous things. WE are supposed to be better then them.
@Brett- I think you are the exception to the rule, if you will. Many males leave and never look back.
This is one of those issues that many have opinions on but unless you’ve been there and done that you have no idea how you’d react. Unless you’ve been faced with an abortion you have no idea how you’d respond-and unless you’ve raised a child you have no idea how hard it can be, and how rewarding.
No one else can make these decisions for you- and I’m weary of blanket statements that women are selfish losers if they have abortions-everyone is different.
What if you don’t have insurance? What if contraception fails? What if you have health complications?
Society still looks down on unwed mothers and economically you’ll be punished as well.
While I am staunchly anti-abortion, I am aware of the negative side effects of just stopping it cold. I really am not concerned with the girl who kills herself or get killed having a back alley abortion performed. I see it as she was trying to take a life and killed herself as well. Save the court system some tax dollars. But I do understand that there will be more abandoned children, more that are killed after their birth, and more that are sold on the black market. More children will be starting out in a situation of disadvantaged. What if they row up to be drug dealers, bank robbers, or god forbid “Republicans”. The sad truth is that because we have had abortion as an option, these problems have not been dealt with in a more progressive manor. But, those to me are just problems to be dealt with in a new way.
Abortion is the onle medical procedure that is discussed as a political issue. And no one has any right to tell another person what to do with their body.
The point I was making about the protesters was that it’s making an alredy difficult decision worse. It’s a difficult decision that will follow that women for the rest of her life. Nothing about the situation is easy.
If your arguement isn’t strong enough that you have to put words into other people’s mouths, you’ve lost.
@Dwight
When have we ever been better? Is there are Mir Cat hitler, stalin or pol pot? I kind of funny that people think we are somehow better than other animals. True, we can send a man to the moon but we kill each other over religion, or because babies are inconvenient.. At least in the examples you get, the alpha female killed the babies because there wasn’t enough food, not because she didn’t feel like having kids. After all, there is welfare for humans, there isn’t for cats.
@ Janet T
“Society still looks down on unwed mothers and economically you’ll be punished as well.”
Aren’t unwed mothers the majority of mothers? Are they looking down on themselves? Economically punished as well? Do unwed fathers get welfare as well as child support? I don’t think so.
I fully support a woman’s right to a safe and legal abortion. If a person does not agree with this, then they are welcome to vote for a candidate who reflects their views, and to have sex with someone who holds the same belief.
@Steve in response to Sarah in Ohio
Parents can’t disown their children?? I guess not in a legal sense but I’ve known parents that have kicked out their 15 year old because they didn’t like his hair- and he lived on the streets for months (and still attended high school)- I’d call that disowning!
It is much too easy to have an abortion anywhere in the world. Killing people is always wrong. Most folks are repulsed by the thought of infanticide. How is abortion different? Is it just a matter of the smaller the person, the less human it is? Arguments in favor of this barbaric practice are well beyond my feeble comprehension. I can bring no logical argument to stop abortion amongst those who believe that if a human being is small or seemingly unimportant enough, he or she may be murdered with impunity.
g
@ Janet
Parents cannot kick out minors. The child could have had his parents arrested, and sued for kicking them out and not supporting him. My friend’s cousin got pregnant at 15, and her father didn’t speak to her for a year, but didn’t kick her out. It’s illegal for parents to kick out minor children.
@ Sarah
“Abortion is the onle medical procedure that is discussed as a political issue. And no one has any right to tell another person what to do with their body.”
That’s completley untrue. There’s the whole euthanisia thing, assisted suicide, stem cell research. many medical issues are political also.
And yes, people do have the right to tell others what to do with their bodies. Ever heard of cocaine? It’s illegal. That’s the law saying you aren’t allowed ot use cocaine. Ever heard of prescription drugs? You aren’t allowe dto take them without a prescription. You aren’t allowed to sell your organs, you aren’t allowed to take performance enhancing drugs. You aren’t even allowed to kill yourself! It’s illegal!
A teenage pregnancy is one of the causes leading to abortion. It has become worrying in many countries because at this age girls aren’t yet equipped to be mothers as they still have to equip themselves with experience and educational qualifications to face life as single mothers.
Abortion is not an easy step to take as it poses ethical dilemmas, especially from a religious point of view. The best thing as it is always is prevention. Psychological cure is sometimes hard to get as abortion in many cases is carried with a sense of guilt.
If sexual freedom is a right in many societies, it should be taken with great responsibility by parents, tutors and teenagers themselves. It shouldn’t turn out to be a spectre leading to the death of foetuses which are dispensed of as nothing less than a tumour or a cancer in the wombs bearing them.
@Steve
Although I can understand both sides of the equation. Since women are the ones to have children, they sometimes feel irritated when a man tells them what to do about their body. I realize that a baby is not just the woman’s but it is inside her body, so her decision should be more important than a man’s wishes. However, the situation is different if the individuals are married. In my case, my family would disown me if I got pregnant before I was married, although I am not a minor.
@Brett
I sympathize with your situation. I know it is very hard to live knowing you could have been a father. Abortion is hard on both parents and for most people the hurt says with them throughout their life. Several of my friends have had abortions and they are not proud of their actions, but they realize it was not the right thing for them to do.
As Steve stated, most women that get abortions are selfish but men do many selfish things also. I think that it is selfish to tell someone not to do something because you believe it is wrong, just make sure you don’t associate with someone who believes in abortion.
@Julie P
I completely agree with you.
I fully agree with those who have pointed out that thinking of the abortion issue only as “It’s may body” is a self-centered, shallow thought process, and culturally unhealthy view. Science says that at an undetermined point, there is two people whose choice needs considered at least. Three with the father really. There are all kinds of things the government won’t let me do with my body that would have no cultural impact whatsoever. The law is screwed up. The woman can kill her baby, but it is considered double homicide if a baby is killed during a murder.
@ Steve, it is equally dangerous to look at the lowest common denominator and say, “That is the shining example.” for every Hitler there is a 100,000 people who detest that kind of behavior.
@ gary
You’ll find that every pro abortion argument invariably is a childish “I want to do whatever I want, and you can’t stop me!”. Perhaps if they incorporated an economic argument, an envrionmentalist argument, instead of a “I WANT THIS AND I WANT IT RIGHT NOW! KEEP YOUR LAWS OFF MY BODY!” they might persuade more people.
Modern legalisation always moves with time. A time will come when the the most grotesque form of our moral ineptitude will be legalised. In my place abortion is illegal. These days it has reached new but disturbing levels despite fervent preachings from religious leaders. The menace is frowned upon. A woman can only allowed to abort under dangerous conditions-when her life is at risk. I don’t see why any sensible should allow abortion. Instead the cause should be established so that the pregnancy can only be terminated under medical grounds. You may call me downright conservative but religion is the only way we can be out of this social confusion. Their is nothing primitive about God’s laws.
Steve~
There aren’t any other species that I’m aware of that DIRECTLY kill inconvenient young but there are hundreds of species of mammals that simply abandon them at birth if conditions aren’t suitable or an optimum number of young have already been born.
@ Angela
That so many laws are biased in favor of women, isn’t it time men have some say? The latest trend is that women are suing male sperm donors for child support…..
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2004046062_sperm01.html
You aren’t even allowed to kill yourself! It’s illegal!
******************************************
@ Steve- actually attempted suicide is illegal- if you succeed they can’t arrest you at all!
@ John-
Remember the PBS special- the secret life of birds? there is a type of bird that nests in the cliffs and if the parents think there will not be enough food they throw one of the babies out of the nest (off the cliff)
Hi WHYS!
This is such an emotional and timely issue for many us. On Friday (May 16)last, I spoke with a group of female students at a high school here in Jamaica on national radio about this issue. One student said: “life begins at birth – when the child can breathe on its own”. In her view, terminating a pregnancy anytimme between conception and birth is a perfectly legitimate option (notwithstandind the risks to the mother’s health, even).
I was taken aback, but listened all the same. After all, the aim was not to judge so much as to understand. In that context, I am higly doubtful if enough information has filtered into the construction and subsequent discussion of this issue in places like Jamaica, as well as other places. Pro-lifers are still convinced that the right to expel a foetus from a woman’s body is her right alone, whereas the Church, most of which are headed by men, feel very differently.
I propose, therefore, that real information is given in terms of when life begins and what options are available to young women who find themselves in a situation where they feel compelled to have an abortion. I am not so sure, in reality, whether the increasing of the rights of the father necessarilly addresses that issue, as I am of the view that it is usually when young women feel cornered and helpless that they feel forced to make such radical decisions. Radical because the implications of the taking of a life – notwithstanding when, is still very much a legal and ethical, if not a moral, issue in society, currently.
The implications of an abortion, of course, are simple – is the life of the unborn child/ foetus/ thing (or whatever we call it) more viable than that of the woman in whose body it lives before birth? Regardless of the reasons for such a choice, these are, admittedly, difficult questions to answer. This is especially the case in the West where the social and political taboos regarding certain expressions sex and sexuality have been weakened significantly over time. Is 20 weeks a better time in which to take a life compared to 4 weeks later? I am not sure because there is still no common agreement on when life actually begins. Indeed, if we knew this before hand perhaps we might be pushed to alter our actions in terms of responsible sexual expression?…Just a thought.
the last sentence in my second paragraph should have read “Pro-choicers”….
Janet T~
I focused on mammals because they seem more relevant to the topic at hand – the young are born fully developed and the mothers nurse and raise them. If you want to include all species that abandon or eject unwanted newborns the list would probably include tens of thousands.
@Steve
I think it is ridiculous to sue a man when a women used his sperm sample, for child support. So I can understand your point. There should be some laws to protect men but I don’t think that just because a women can decide to have a baby against a guys wishes, that the man should not have to pay. It takes two to tango and there should be some changes but I am not sure what those changes should be.
I don’t want someone to tell if I can or can not have an abortion. It’s my body and my right. I don’t agree with late term abortions only if the mother’s life is at risk. The gov’t needs to stay out of this business.
Brett – “Either way, the male has NO rights. He has no say in whatever decision the female makes about the fate of his own child, he has very little say in the slim chance that he will get custody if it comes down to that. There is complete inequality all across the board.”
You do have a say. You decide to have unprotected sex with a woman. Otherwise you must accept the consequences of a pregnancy, abortion or potentially 18 years of child support. Abortion will always only be a woman’s decision. If you cannot accept that, don’t have sex.
Abortion Now,Abortion on demand ,it is a Womans right to choose what she does with her body.
Family planning(Birth control) including abortion is one of the greatest drivers of social and material equality in the world.
Have people in western democratic developed civilsed countries forgotten the pre birth control era.
In fact ,I would allow a woman to euthanise her child up to nine months after birth if she could not cope.
@ Angela
“but I don’t think that just because a women can decide to have a baby against a guys wishes, that the man should not have to pay. It takes two to tango and there should be some changes but I am not sure what those changes should be.”
That’s having your cake and eating it too though. The man has no say whether she has an abortion or not, yet he’s completely financially liable for her decision to have a child. That’s not equality. I thought women were equal? Apparently the law theys they aren’t.
@Vijay
Although I am pro-choice, I hope you are joking about killing the baby. After the child is born and if she doesn’t want the kid, give the child up for abortion.
Isn’t it a personal human right to choose? It makes me furious with all the suffering in the world that so much emphasis can be given to a so called “unborn life”, when the population is out of control as it is. The church (especially the Catholic faith) are causing more problems and misery to their congregation by not allowing birth control or abortion.
i don’t even feel the need to make an excuse. laws shouldn’t regulate a women’s body or personal choices.
women can’t make personal decisions while men start wars that kill millions. nice.
@ Peter James
“Isn’t it a personal human right to choose? It makes me furious with all the suffering in the world that so much emphasis can be given to a so called “unborn life”, when the population is out of control as it is. The church (especially the Catholic faith) are causing more problems and misery to their congregation by not allowing birth control or abortion.”
What about the personal human right of the child to chose not to be killed?
I’m an athiest, and even I can see how wrong abortion is. If you can kill your own child, you are absolutely without a conscience. how could you live with yourself knowing you are the cause of the death of your child?
Even if it isn’t intentional, the language you’re using is skewed. You said something like, “abort your unborn child.” Don’t you think that sounds rather harsh to someone who believes they terminated a pregnancy rather than ending a fully-formed viable life? You also said legislators are deciding whether to lower the “age” of abortion from 24 to 20 months. It isn’t an “age”, it is a length of pregnancy.
I have to contradict the catholic lady. Most of my friends that have obtained abortions are catholic girls.
to the catholic woman, abstinence doesn’t work. education does. kudos to the woman who stood up to you.
all babies wanted by their creator? would you argue this to rape victims that get pregnant?
Unfortunately, our society believes that we can live free from the consequences of our choices. We need to understand that whether it be debt, unprotected sex or whatever we need to live with the outcome of our choices. It comes down to personal integrity and responsibility.
vijay, what an unbelievable view. I feel sorry for the way in which you grew up because obviously you are disturbed and or neglected.
Abortion should be safe, legal and rare which to me means that:
Safe: Professional and accessible abortion and family planning services need to be provided. In parts of the US people have to travel long distances (in parts of the Western US 100’s of miles) to get access to reproductive services, including abortion.
Legal: The state should not try to restrict access to abortion or engage in policies to try to hinder abortion access.
Rare: We are never going to make abortion rare by trying to restrict access. Give people access to information about family planning information, low cost contraception and giving information to people of all ages. Beyond this make sure that people are educated, have access to economic opportunity and health care.
I don’t trust my government to make decisions that should be between me and my partner. Restriction on abortion is part of an effort by certain groups to impose there religious (and political) views of others. We must fight this as people committed to pluralism and liberal democratic society.
God knows the preborn child. “You knit me in my mother’s womb . . . nor was my frame unknown to you when I was made in secret” (Psalm 139:13,15). God also helps and calls the preborn child. “You have been my guide since I was first formed . . . from my mother’s womb you are my God” (Psalm 22:10-11). “God… from my mother’s womb had set me apart and called me through his grace” (St. Paul to the Galatians 1:15).
According to the christian bible, a baby in the womb is already god’s child… however, this is a religious belief that should be withheld in the religion’s community. There are people on the planet that are not this religion and should not be held to this religion’s standards.
Polls in the US have consistently shown that the overwhelming majority of Americans want abortions to be Safe, Legal and Rare. In my counselling practice I have spoken with many women and men who have struggled with the decision to abort a pregnancy and feelings of guilt, loss and depression even many years afterwards. I agree with the majority view and would like to see much more emphasis on exploring ways to reduce the number of abortions. Unfortunately, it is easier to have an abortion than it is to practice consistently safe sex or have a baby. I place cases of rape or incest or cases where there is physical danger to the mother in a separate category then the majority of abortions.
Michael
To the guest who said is shocked about about India and how girls are aborted, are you still so pro abortion anymore? It’s kinda ironic in India they are aborting away the future feminists. So maybe abortion should be banned so girls don’t get aborted away?
Unless a fetus can survive outside of the womb I think it is a woman’s right to abort it.
Anna
Mississippi, USA
The bulk of abortions these days are for the destruction of healthy immature babies.
Most women take their chance (risk) over pregency. Men are not responsible.
But that is life, or if you are an abortion victim, it is murder.
I wasn’t married in the mid 1980’s when I got pregnant. at age 25 in the U.S. I made 3 appointments for an abortion before I realized that I wanted to continue with the pregnancy. This was the most difficult decision I have ever made in my life.
I agree with the guests who say the decision stays with a woman her whole life. I would like to stress that the experience of making this decision also stays with a woman who continues with the pregnancy.
I would also like to say to the abortion protesters who hung out outside the abortion clinics, heckling and guilt tripping had nothing to do with my decision to continue with the pregnancy. To this day, I greatly resent that they attempted to hamper my constitutional right to decide for myself.
I continued with the pregnancy, but it was my choice. I would never presume to make the choice for another woman.
It is too easy to have an abortion in the US. Only when a womens life is at risk should an abortion be preformed. We have to get back to the responsibility of reproduction. If you can not afford or want a child don’t have sex at all. The only true birth control is NOT to have sex. In the case of rap or insest that is where that morning after pill comes in abortion so be given as a chose.
Thanks,
Thea
There should be no restrictions on when a woman can abort. Her life is more important than that of the unborn fetus. The fetus is nothing but potential while the woman is a person. Additionally any attempt to control her body is an infraction on individual liberty.
Buckminster
Washington, USA
Abortion will always only be a woman’s decision. If you cannot accept that, don’t have sex.
Immagine if we told women that “The workplace will always be run by men, if you can’t deal with that, don’t work.”
Many people faught against that idea and have done quite alot for women in the workforce. They fought for equal rights for women. I am simply arguing for equal rights for men in a completely biased system in which there are more than one parties involved which need to be taken into account (3 parties in fact, not only the woman).
I would not say that it is too easy to have an abortion in the US. Rather, with recent state laws and regulations, and US Supreme Court rulings I would say just the opposite. I find the limitation on late term abortions particularly arguable. There are not that many of them and they are done for necessity and not convenience; and thus limiting them makes no sense. While it is true that an occasional baby as young as 21 or 22 weeks gestation may survive, the preponderance of research demonstrates that overall viability remains at 24 weeks gestation. Indeed, evan at this age, about 25% of infants who survive are neurologically impaired. Given the finite nature of health care services and materiel, and the cost-intensive nature of caring for extremely young infants, I would not recommend reducing the age of viability below 24 weeks gestation at this time.
“I’m really grateful for the laws” things would have been really bad for her if she had to carry on with the pregnancy. Notice how every single pro abortion comment is rooted in extreme selfishness? Only what they want? Since when have adults thought that only their concerns matter? If so, we should all drive massive SUVs, litter, and let anyone do whatever it is that they want! Your first guest clearly was irresponsible, and selfish, and the law allows her the means to not be held accountable for her actions.
Steve
USA
Full disclosure: unequivocally support a women’s right to choose. It is difficult for women in certain parts of the United States (coincidentally in economically depressed/religiously fervent areas) to have access to abortion AND it’s difficult for many women in this country to be pregnant if you’re poor! Do pregnant women get time off with pay for maternity? Is there affordable day care? We’re talking about the richest country the world has ever known; my heart goes out to young women around the world in much worse conditions.
Good evening.
Abortion encourages adultery and prostitutions. Children aren’t safe. Women that do abortions are also highly affected through their health and may sometimes end up with stress and posttraumatic situations. Why do you have to do abortion at the end if you can do family planning in the first before you get pregnant? It’s an act of humiliation to children and increase the rate of child molestation in the countries that practice abortion.
Thanks
Abdiasis
Motherhood was something that was never part of my plans for my life and I am eternally grateful that I was born in a time and a culture where women have the right to make these choices and to the health system in the UK, where lived for 12 years, to let me have an abortion without too much hassle, costs, and without having to overly justify my decision to not have children.
Abortion should be legal and easily and safely available to any woman anywhere.
iris
in Germany
An early stage pregnancy is NOT a person at all… its life, but to say its a conscious person, is rediculous. Anyone who knows biology knows that the first stage is cell division only, and this division is completely dependant on the life of the mother to sustain it. Its not thinking about which show to watch, what to eat, whether there is a god (thor anyone?) or whether to discuss politics, its a mass of cells.
If we want to take the argument to say, any pregnancy is life and life shouldn’t be destroyed then fundementally we need to stop being hypocrytical about other life on our planet. How about that bug you just stepped on, or the freeways that divide large tracks of land and make the migration of that endangered species from one side to the other impossible without a large chance of becoming road kill…
I do agree that only early term pregnancies should be allowed and late term denied (in majority of cases). I also agree that the church (and governement sadly) tries to control women and people this way. I think that women in the end have the choice to decide, but that decision needs to be made early not late.
I watched my sister go through an unwanted pregnancy and give up her child at the age of 14. She was devastated. After that I had no hesitation about getting an abortion when I became pregnant at the age of 18. If a fetus cannot survive outside of the womb it is an integral part of the woman’s body with no question that she should have the decision to bear it or not. A woman is a person a fetus only has the POTENTIAL to become one.
I urge anyone who does not believe in abortion not to have one. For the rest of us it is up our conscience and circumstances to decide.
JoAnn
Washington State
I live in the U.S. When I was 19 I decided to have an abortion because I needed to finish school, and be young still. I knew that there were already millions of unwanted children in the world. I believe that it is inhuman to not teach birth control, and to make abortions illegal when there are so many children already alive who are starving to death. Who do we think we are putting so much emphasis on life, until life is alive and then ignoring it.
Laura in Michigan
Even though it is legal to have an abortion in the US, that doesn’t always make it easy to accomplish. I think this decision should not be made by anyone other than the persons involved, but best with much consideration and if desired consultation with medical and/or religious persons.
I had an abortion in the early 70s, when I was just recently divorced and already had two children. The decision was made taking into consideration the fact that I was barely able to support and care for the children I already had, and thinking what the likely consequences for all of us would be if the pregnancy continued. I was extremely grateful to be able to have the abortion.
In my country NEPAL, the government has made abortion legal. But who will check whether the fetus is 24 week or 7 months. we are more libereal than any other in the world(even liberal than US or UK)in providing unethical type of services . In this south asian countries there is not even record of women carrying abortion. we can find this type of providing near every clinic. It’s cost less than 1000 RS and there is no record or check of number of weeks as in other countries In my view doing abortion is killing the baby and i think it is not the individual right for women. we have lot of method of avoiding getting pregnent.
thank you
@ Brett
Don’t waste your time. Their argument is ” ME ME ME, I I I, I WANT THIS, I WANT THIS RIGHT NOW, KEEP YOUR LAWS OFF MY BODY BUT MAKE THOSE LAWS BENEFIT ME!” It’s competely childish. Self absorbed to the levels of a 7 year old. In fact, most 7 year olds can think of things other than themselves.
As you pointed out correctly, there are 3 parties involved, yet she thinks only she matter, nothing else. That’s called selfishness.
Not to be able to ensue the proper future for a child and still having one is a crime against humanity, let’s emphasize on this more.
Syed in Boston MA
I have only recently tuned into this discussion. My question concerning abortions is in regards to the statement about “if the mother’s life is threatened.” This I agree with, however not all pregnancies are planned nor are babies conceived in voluntary manners. If abortion were to be made illegal, what happens to women who have been raped? Or women who have HIV/AIDS and do not wish to pass it to their child? Will the state expect these women to raise and care for an unwanted child from a man who forced himself on her? And if so, what kind of upbringing can this child expect from a mother who did not want him/her in the first place?
Shaun
Halifax, NS, Canada
Abortion is a serious matter. I don’t know anyone that sits around on a friday night and thinks “oh I think I’ll have an abortion tonight”. It takes a lot of thought, that changes your life. Personally speaking, I would like to have the option. There are so many factors that could come into being. I’m careful when it comes to sex: I use birthcontrol (both condom and hormonal), I also don’t just go about sleeping with everyone. What if I was raped? I’m only human… it would be a constant reminder that I was forced into something I didn’t want. What if the child was abnormal? What if I couldn’t afford the upkeep of a handicapped child? There are medications out there (accutane being one) that if a baby is concieved during the taking of this medicine, horrible birthdefects that prevent the normaly life a child happen. Some people say there is adoption. Well there is, but do I really want to put my body through that turmoil? No one can deny that once you have a child, your body is changed…completely..forever. What if I just don’t want to have a child, I’m not ready? Should I be punished? No, I think that it’s a good idea to have the option. But the best way to stop abortions is to actually teach about the best ways to prevent it, BC methods as well as self-respect. Also, not to get on a political rant…but stop politiking the price of brithcontrol. In the US, $50 a month was how much it used to cost….now it’s about $160. It doesn’t mean that I will automatically go out and get one if I’m pregnant, but I’d like to have the option.
I’m curious what US women are going to do when Roe v. Wade gets overturned. Doesn’t mean abortion will be outlawed, that could only happen on a national leve with an amendment. But individual states could ban abortion, not all will.
Even the most liberal supreme court justice, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, believes Roe v. Wade is bad law, creating a privacy right out of thin air. Possibly the worst supreme court decision since Plessy v. Ferguson (upholding the seperate but equal doctrine of segregation).
Ros & WHYS Staff:
I believe that it is to easy to get an abortion. Though not a perfect solution, if a parent is unable to take care of their child, then they should put it up for adoption. Abortion should only be used for medical emergencies not for “a mistake”.
I feel the need to raise the question “what about personal responsibility?” We all know what can happen as a result of having sex. If people are not ready to be parents then they should be smart enough to realize that and not put themselves in those situations. If a person can’t take care of a child then they should not have sex.
Thanks. Keep up the good work!
Ian from Arizona
It should be the woman’s choice every time. It is she who carries the baby. Remind your Irish Guest many Irish Girls come to The U.K. for abortions.
Peter in Kent
As a physician who works both internationally and in the US. I have witnessed firsthand the effects of illegal abortions. Women have for centuries and will continue to terminate undesired pregnancies. The only recourse is to legalize these procedures and offer safe legal care. It is a individuals right to choose, not a governements right to dictate.
Diane, California
I see the question of abortion as something largely defined by religion – those opposed have some level of faith in a supernatural existence and the notion of a “sanctity” of life, and while many of those who share those sentiments DO support a woman’s right to chooose, there is an almost universal acceptance of abortion among atheists.
So I would like to pose a question: Is it possible to OPPOSE abortion on a strictly rational basis without resorting to those arguments of faith (sanctity of life, etc.)?
Lydia makes a good point that it is important to have legislation that provides equal pay and other benefits to women. However, easy access to abortion in the US has also resulted, ironically, in obstacles to the achievement of full economic equality for women. Discrimination against pregnant women and against women with caretaking responsibilities is on the rise in the US, as pregnant women encountering economic difficulty are regularly pressured to have abortions in order not to “burden” society with their children. This is hardly empowering for women.
I do think that abortion is in fact the wrong end of the process.
Education about family planning,
Comprehensive provision of contraception,
Sterilisation where relevant,
All on request, without restriction or cost,
Should make abortion virtually unnecessary, but it should be similarly available.
In the bigger picture, the planet’s problem is human overpopulation.
Population has tripled in the last 50 years.
The effect on all resources; water, food and land is obvious.
People generate greenhouse gases, global warming is exacerbating the effects.
The answer is:
Education about contraception methods,
Contraception,
Sterilisation,
Abortion,
available on request, free, worldwide.
The alternative is:
Chaos, leading to Death by Famine, Pestilence, and War.
Francois
Wow, I have always been pro-choice. But listening to one of your guest and reading some of the women comments on the blog I maybe should take another look at this.
These women sound selfish, bitter, and unrational. I believe life starts at conception, and I believe that when you are making a choice weather or not to terminate a pregnancy you are deciding to terminate a life. The questions is what is the defination of ‘life’?
I also more and more believe the fathers of these unborns should be given a say. It just does not sound fair to me that that they are not involved in the decision but then the state forces them to participate in the upbringing of the result of the decision. Come on women, Fair is fair. You keep the choice but lets make it a collective choice.
I made a choice a long time ago to not be a mother. I have taken the needed steps to make sure I don’t become pregnant. In the event that I should, I would have an abortion. I am a full time student; intending to go on to attain a doctorate in Social Work. There is no room for a child in my life.
It is a personal choice to have an abortion. It is not fair to pressure women to keep unwanted children. It is not fair to dictate from a religious perspective what a women should do with her body or not. If a person is against abortion, don’t have one. Leave the option available for those who choose this option.
We could argue about this forever. Don’t have an abortion if you are against it.
The world’s population has been increasing by about 75 million each year.
Ecosystems are already collapsing
and people are already starving.
Numbers will not increase forever: it is a mathematical impossibility.
So let’s start with the easiest cases:
If some person does not want to become a parent,
there should always be a safe, legal way for them not to become a parent.
Abortion > starvation
Rik in Portland, OR
The solution to the abortion problem worldwide is to take all of the opposition and condemnation of abortion and re-channel it into a campaign to provide information and options to those faced with the decision of whether or not to abort. After all, nobody really wants to have an abortion, they usually decide to abort because it seems to be the best option available go the situation. Protests don’t en any good but en cause a great deal of harm. Pro-Lifers could save many more lives by offering help and support to women who need it to either keep the baby or carry it to term and offer it for adoption.
It bears in mind that governments should have some vested interest in abortions since, they will likely have to support a great number of the children/mothers in the future.
It is terrible balancing act they have to perform because they also have to balance the moral and private issues surrounding the act.
Generally, I believe in the choice of the mother with input from the father.
Yes! Abortion has become a word with no connection to the enormity of the event. When people realize what they are doing – killing a life – they will think twice about choosing to kill a life. Another thing, the question of whether the fetus is a life or not, is a question that was placed there purposely. It is the question that keeps us in denial as to wether what is growing inside the womb is a living being. The key word is growing. If it is growing, then it is alive. If it is taken out before it has a chance to function on it’s own, then it is killed. I believe that a woman has a choice. But the choice is to kill or let live.
Abortions should be the decision of the women. Why should religion enter the argument? It is not compulsory to have a faith so why should a womens choice within her country be in part determined by religion.
William in Wales
I think that North Americans take abortion far too casually, and are allowed to have abortions way too late in their pregnancies.
I helped a friend get an early abortion (a couple weeks along) when she was beaten and raped by a drunk family member, and I think that there are always going to be valid circumstances so it needs to remain a legal and safe option for women. I think it is ridiculous that minors have to have parental permission in some states, because sexual abuse is frequently perpetrated by family members. But I also have cousins who are now healthy adults who were born at the age that you can still abort someone here in the US, and I think that that is a profound devaluation of a human life that those babies are killed. Women need to take responsibility for their fertility and their sexuality, and if society wants them to carry these babies to term, they must support those pregnancies socially and financially, and be prepared to adopt unwanted babies.
Becky
When you boil it down it really comes down to inconvenience vs Life,….and if inconvenience wins ..what value does life hold in the world today.
Tom
Bay Village, Ohio
Except on health grounds ,those Women who want to abort their lovely “Feotus”should be given stricter conditons to reduce those tendencies,for the sake of Family “Values”.On those who are citing vaolation of Women`s rights,which of the two is more human right oriented-i.e “To prevent those Women destroy their babies or help them do so irrespective of the emotional pressure they suffer later on -Leading to a negative implication in Society.
I their for pray that this vote will be in favor of the 20 weeks for now and as time goes ,more reduction be made to reduce the number of murder by abortion.
It’s the mother that has to look after the child. Shouldn’t the mother have the choice? If the Catholic church wants to ban abortion, then let them lookafter all the children who would have been aborted.
Chris in Namibia
@Steve
I think that’s a very unfortunate characterization of women regarding abortion law, and echoes frat boy sexism. Are you surprised that women are defensive about their legal rights? The LAWS ARE PASSED BY MEN, about their own bodies! Give me a break Steve with your dramatic and purely anecdotal stories.
There were allegations of systematic abortion of female fetuses in China, for population growth control. Now many Chinese parents revert to such abortion in the hope of having a son. These has now led to population imbalance, in which there are much more males than females. Now the male-female ratio in China caused by sex-selection abortions is worsening, pushed up to 120 men for every 100 women. http://www.euthanasia.com/china-ra.html
In India there is such an abortion because of social attitudes to girls. In this country it costs 500 rupees for abortion while the girl’s dowry costs 50,000 rupees. Abortion isn’t just carried out of the choice of the pregnant woman. But she can be under pressure to do so, either by her husband or her family.
So while in some countries abortion remains the choice of the mother; in others, there are other parties that step in to have it carried out.
I wish that governments would do more to promote ADOPTION as an alternative that satisfies the moral, social and economic dilemmas of abortion. My daughter’s birthmother made a beautiful CHOICE by carrying her to term and placing her in our arms. It would have been very easy for her to terminate the pregnancy–she was not in a good position to parent a child. But she endured a few more months of pregnancy so that our daughter could have a chance at life. I can’t imagine the world without our little girl in it. She is a vibrant, beautiful 3-year-old. Who knows what the world would have missed if her birthmother had chosen to abort?
Nicole in Pennsylvania
@ John in Salem
“So I would like to pose a question: Is it possible to OPPOSE abortion on a strictly rational basis without resorting to those arguments of faith (sanctity of life, etc.)?”
I’m a proud athiest, I love to mock people’s religious beliefs, and I’m shocked by your question. How is killing your defenseless child, because you are selfish, anything other than a bad thing? Listen to the reason: I wanted to finish school, I’m not ready,etc. All rooted in selfishness. Do we in other scenarios allow people to kill their kids after birth because they aren’t convenient? Do you have to be religious to think killing your offspring is wrong?
I think abortion should be legal but is not a great thing. Both”sides” should work towards less unwanted pregnancies -meaning sex ed and birth control.
With regards to the moral issues, if God is involved because these babies have souls, couldn’t God make it so the soul could “get back in line” and be born though another concieved baby?
@ Steve:
@ Brett
Don’t waste your time. Their argument is ” ME ME ME, I I I, I WANT THIS, I WANT THIS RIGHT NOW, KEEP YOUR LAWS OFF MY BODY BUT MAKE THOSE LAWS BENEFIT ME!” It’s competely childish. Self absorbed to the levels of a 7 year old. In fact, most 7 year olds can think of things other than themselves.
As you pointed out correctly, there are 3 parties involved, yet she thinks only she matter, nothing else. That’s called selfishness.
Exactly, I give up arguing this lol, I know how I feel and stand firmly by my ideals and convictions.
Women want equal rights when it comes to the financial obligations of raising a child, through child support. They want equal rights in every other arena of the burdening which comes with raising that child. Yet they [the ones arguing over it] don’t want equal rights when it comes to playing the decision-maker of the three lives in question.
*sigh*
Oh well.
20 weeks are still too many for considering about about an abortion for the reason of failed contraception or accidental pregnancy. In my country interval for legal abortion is 12 weeks with possible longer limit for the reason of medical condition of child or mother. 3 Months are enough for making such crucial and irreversible decission whether to have a child or not. There are many serious moments in life we have to cope with and an abortion is too simple solution for pregnant women.
Other problems: Rights of unborn child versus mother, does child have rights before aborion limit or not, risks and consequences for mother during and after this surgical intervention and anaesthesia, can doctor refuse to make or assist by this procedure???
My opinion: Legal abortion first 12 months or later because of medical conditions
Paid intervention except medical indication…
PS: really complicated problem involving mother, unborn child ( also human ), doctor, father, state, law and somewhere religion
An early term fetus is not a living, breathing being. It relies completely on its host (the mother) for sustenance. I am a mother of one premature daughter (born 2 months early) and am pregnant with my second child, and I still strongly believe that abortion should remain legal and SAFE. Termination of a pregnancy and control over our bodies is a right deserved by all women.
~ John in Salem
Why do you believe that “sanctity of life” is not a rational reason to avoid terminating a life? Since you believe that people of faith are irrational, I will try to pose a rational point:
When is it okay to terminate a life? If you are pro-choice, which your post suggest you are, when it is okay to terminate a life? For abortions, and as related to the program, 20 weeks? Would it be okay to terminate a life at 20 years? Why is it okay to terminate a child but not an adult? When does it stop?
Rationally, you must agree that life is life, no matter what the age of the life is. Terminating a life is still the death of a person, regardless of the age of the life.
There are other options to unwanted children than resulting to abortion.
Ian from Arizona
To put this as cold and heartless as possible, does anyone realize that we are going through a worldwide population control problem? Why bring an unwanted child into such a world? A child would live a much happier and better life if it were raised by parents who wanted it, and were willing to work hard to be good parents.
I was raised in an extremely strick Southern Baptist family (Georgia).
I got pregnate when I was 19 years old. I was in a committed relationship and we were engaged to be married. I was very scared when I found out I was pregnate and thought about abortion because I knew my father would probably beat me.
I did my research about abortion and determined that I would not be able to live with the guilt I would have felt. I decided to have the baby (my Jonathan) and I have never regretted my decision.
When my sons grew up, I never withheld information from them (like it was withheld from me). I answered every question they ever had about sex and pregnancy. So far (fingers crossed) they have not gotten any women pregnant.
I believe abortion is a personal choice and I do believe that religion is not the only answer. Educate your children and make sure they know their options and love them no matter what.
Abortion is such a non issue(a cliche)in progressive civilised societies. Repressive and backward countries still restrict Abortion.
This idea may be rather controversial, but isn’t the legal requirement that a woman carry a fetus to full term a form of involuntary servitude (slavery)? Obviously, the interests of both the fetus and the mother must be balanced.
Best show ever! That was the quickest hour of my life!
I am from Mexico. Grew up Catholic, no education about sex. I remember stories of women dying of bleeding because a illigal abortion. I believe on the right of abortion, for many reasons. In my country many times if the men knows the girlfriend is pregnant his whole family may disapeard or he will just leave, also the woman may never be able to marry and the whole society holds her guilty and a shame to society. I have a question who is going to care for those kids that born when the parents or the single mother doesn’t have any social support?
Laws can help only ,when we are able to change the mindset of the people.In developing countries like India the mindset of people towards a girl child has not changed much in last 50 years.So we must focus on social change
Life begins when the pregnant person decides to carry to full term. Before she decides, what is inside here is a fetus, a “collection of cells,” but if she decides to carry to full term, it is a “baby.”
I was surprised to hear your Catholic panelist say the Catholic church has funerals for miscarriages. I know of funerals for stillbirths (after 20 weeks) but not for miscarriages. I’m a Catholic and I’ve suffered 4 miscarriages, at 6 weeks, 8 weeks, 11 weeks and 12 weeks. I was lucky to get a card or word of condolence from people. And my priest said absolutely nothing to me. The church would not have a funeral mass for me (not that I would have wanted one.) I’ve never heard of a funeral service for a miscarriage. I did participate in a nondemoninational service of remembrance with my first miscarriage. Right or wrong, society doesn NOT see a fetus prior to 20 weeks as a person. You can’t get a fetus insured, get a social security number, etc. I personally wouldn’t have an abortion, but I don’t think it’s my business to tell other women they can’t have one. And although I’m a Catholic who is very active in my church, I’m ashamed at the Church’s stand on women’s issues. The Church in Ireland should be VERY ashamed. My grandmother came over to the US from Ireland and had 15 children. My God, the woman was enslaved in her marriage. Very sad.
@ Steve:
Best show ever! That was the quickest hour of my life!
Ditto, this is one of the best shows I have listened to yet!
It has surely challenged and made me think about my beliefs. I will be no doubt doing a very long blog on my page about this topic!
@Steve
If and once Roe vs. Wade is overturned women will just go through a more dangerous route to obtain an abortion. I just hope the female that you are involved with does not believe in abortion because if she doesn’t it doesn’t, you are fine.
Other than Brett’s situation, why would you be concerned about what someone else is doing. I may be selfish but I don’t care what other people do, as long as it doesn’t hurt me. If someone gets an abortion or not, I still sleep fine at night.
I’m a married woman and my husband and I use birth control. Recently we thought that I may be pregnant. We had discussed the possibility of children before but now it was right in front of us. Not only did we have our selfish concerns (which we are both completely okay to admitting) but we had others as well. I’m epileptic and have medications that could cause potential harm to a fetus. While I’m still able to carry a child there is higher risk for birth defects. After the “scare” we discussed sterilization. Unfortunately we are not allowed because we don’t have children already and we are “too youg.” I’m certainly not being irresponsible and I refuse to abstain from sex with my husband.
I want to ask the question (perhaps a medical professional can answer) why is it that if I want to be responsible to avoid an unwanted pregnancy I’m told I can’t be sterilized (or my husband for that matter who happens to be a couple years younger than me)? If I change my mind later then I have to deal with the consequences of that choice. I would happily sign a waiver for any rights to sue(because you know there are people out there that will). There are plenty of unwanted children in the world; why contribute to the problem. Unfortunately if I do get pregnant I am left with an uncomfortable decision and I am very glad that I still have a right to choose!
Brett “The workplace will always be run by men, if you can’t deal with that, don’t work.”
I know you’re not comparing laws governing discrimination in the workplace with pregnancy, right? Giving birth is not a “completely biased system”. In fact, it is not a system at all but rather a biological reality – one that can only be accomplished by a woman. I do admire your committment to wanting this child (believe you are in the male minority) but since it is a woman who ultimately bears the biggest burden and responsibility, it is ultimately her decision.
I have been reading some of these entries and am intrigued at the range of perspectives on this matter. I am especially struck by Iris’ comments about the times in which she lives which has afforded the means by which to have an abortion without too much hassle, cost, or health risks in the UK. I must confess that I am inclined to agree with this position, notwithstanding my own religious beliefs (Catholicism).
As Iris noted, the child is part of the woman’s body and, therefore, it she who gets to have the greater say how to engage with whether to terminate the pregnancy or not. Though, I am convinced there is need for real information before such a choice is made, as I noted in my earlier post.
Indeed, to the extent that the woman and how her body is used, both by herself and society, is at the heart of this issue I cannot agree with Steve’s less than optimistic response to Brett that it is all about “ME! ME! Me!”. That would suggest that denying a woman her right to decide whether to carry a pregnancy to term, somehow, makes her more compassionate and, therefore, less selfish. I am not so sure that one follows logically from the other. This is essentially flawed reasoning. In both instances the woman does not get to have a say in the discussion as it impacts her and her own ideas about self. This is problematic. Neither position necessarilly explain the extent to which the woman faced with the option of a forced motherhood feels and what that does to her.
I am certainly not suggesting abortions at will nor ‘on demand’. However, I am arguing that penalising a woman’s choice a simple function of selfishness belies the seriousness of that choice as well as insists that, regardless of the exigencies of the context in which the woman finds herself, she must submit to this greater sense of humanity authored by people like Steve – unfortunately. I am not agreed.
In fact, I am not agreed that the irresponsible abuse of our sexualities is a useful option either. However, mistakes do happen. What do we do at that point? How do we treat with those realities? Is it simply a question of have the baby or be tarnished with the scarlet letter of “selfishness”? How ridiculous!
Brett and Steve~
Your arguments don’t cut it. Both people make the choice at the beginning to have unprotected sex – the woman knowing that it could present her with a horrific decision, and the man knowing that he must accept that decision if it has to be made and all that comes with it.
She might give him the right to an opinion but the responsibility for the decision is hers to make – he can’t force her either way. The idea of a man going to court to require a woman to suffer nine months of pregnancy and a dangerous delivery because HE wants a baby would be the definition of selfishness.
You do the crime, you do the time.
It seams as if women who feel so strongly about not having a “Abortion” should stick to there values, but not force them on others. Of course I am only 12 and I am pretty dumb in matters like these.
@ Angela
Say if your mom aborted you and you never had the chance to write your opinion on here?
I’m speaking for those that have no voice. That’s all. There are those that speak for animals, there are those that speak for young children, and some speak for those that never had a chance to even be born. At least I’m not killing anyone.
“If someone gets an abortion or not, I still sleep fine at night.”
Do people getting killed in Iraq affect you personally either?No. And I bet you still sleep at night. I’m thinking you probably still sleep well at night even though the genocide in Darfur too. Those don’t affect you personally either, maybe nobody else should speak out for the victims of that either, right?
I had an unexpected pregnancy. During my pregnancy, my family was hit with two separate major medical crises with my other child and my husband. My husband’s job was jeapardized. We have major debt because we could not afford child care so that I could work. My baby is a beautiful gift, without whom I could not have withstood the last two years. We are slowly working our way out of debt. It will take a long time and we will never be materially rich. But is that really important?
What would have helped us was NOT an abortion but rather better access to better health care, childcare, and equal pay for women. High abortion rates, whether legal or illegal, are a sign that women’s basic economic and political rights are not being respected. The early American feminists recognized that abortion does not empower women, and did not link abortion rights to women’s rights. This is instructive.
One more point regarding the “personal” choice to consider a fetus as human or not. Should people be allowed to exercise the “personal” choice to consider humans of different races to be not human? Disabled people? What makes it OK to consider a fetus to be not human but not a person of a different race?
@Andrew
“This idea may be rather controversial, but isn’t the legal requirement that a woman carry a fetus to full term a form of involuntary servitude (slavery)? Obviously, the interests of both the fetus and the mother must be balanced.”
The Supreme Court has said that even the draft doesn’t violate the 13th Amendment. Involuntary servitude is work/labor, not a bodily function. Getting pregnant is the natural product of having sex. It’s no more involuntary servitude than is any other bodily function. Given that fact, people should be responsible, because unless you’re “special” (which would likely involve a lack of consent) you realize that sex causes pregnancy!
I think our government is far too willing to protect a ‘woman’s right to choose’ when it relates to another being’s life. We would consider it insane to fight to protect a murder’s right to murder. We have provided women with plenty of choices that can be made BEFORE there is another life involved – birth control pills, IUD’s, patches, injections, abstinence, all of which will alleviate the ‘problem’ all together. But once there is another life involved, ones choices would naturally be limited. Just as we do not even consider it an available choice to kill a three-year-old child when we don’t feel we can parent them appropriately, or afford them. We need to decide as a society, when exactly another life is involved (my personal belief is that it is at conception). Whatever point that is, once another life is part of the picture, choices are not a part of the picture.
And, yes, I believe that women will still seek illegal abortions, just as people seek other dangerous activities such as illicit drug use, etc. Society needs to address those issues in some way other than making it legal to kill babies.
I believe that I can be pro-life and pro-choice. I simply think that those choices need to happen before another life is involved.
@ John
“The idea of a man going to court to require a woman to suffer nine months of pregnancy and a dangerous delivery because HE wants a baby would be the definition of selfishness.
You do the crime, you do the time.”
You’re saying that having a kid that already exists is more selfish than killing it? Maybe where you’re from but not where I’m from.
Steve:
Are Pro Abortion or not?
(I Can’t really tell, sorry)
To clear my comments up a bit as I think they were taken not as I intended:
@ Dee:
I know you’re not comparing laws governing discrimination in the workplace with pregnancy, right?
I was making a comparison with the attitude of “If you don’t like the rules, get out” which was stated in the origional comment I responded to, and the attitude of those in a system with a similar attitude, who ultimately did change, by others that did not like the system (workplace discrimination) and fought to change it.
Giving birth is not a “completely biased system”. I never said giving birth was, the legal and social framework of the entire system is, from the decision-making to the support system. Whether it is right or wrong, good or bad, (as we have all shown we have differing opinions) the legal support system is biased on the side of women.
Steve, can you spare us with this: “I am speaking for the dead” bit and the fact that you do not sleep well at nights because people are dying in Iraq! Where does it end? We will start speaking for everything and everyone under the Sun, before long, even those who do not wish to be spoken for or who may well have chosen not to! I regret to say, there are certain imbalances in the world which will never be bridged, sadly, at least not in our life time.
As it stands, the choice to have sex and, ultimately, face the risks of a pregnancy are often made through a negotiation between two or more people. It is sad that when the ultimate consequences of those choices come back to haunt us, as they often do, we get very moralistic and uptight about choice! What is the big deal?
The reality is that, at the heart of this discussion is the question of how do we treat with human sexuality? Who gets to have the greater say about the regulation of, in this instance, female sexuality and why? This is, clearly, an issue of politics, history and ideology which converge to, essentially, argue that men are somehow more important and, therefore, get to make that choice! We really need to get with the programme – a free society is exactly that, free! That freedom, however, comes with the responsibility of choice! Simple!
Steve,
Your question to Angela is fallacious. The question comes from the position that the person you are asking already belives the same you do. I would like to point that your concept of when life begins is different from hers. You think a fetus is already a person at when? the second a sperm fertilizing the egg? There is the view point that the fertilized egg has potential for life at that stage, and as a fetus. Therefore it would be safe that a person did not exist at the time a pregnancy was ended. No “murder” was committed.
24 weeks is really too many. Recent medicine is able to save premature children up to the 21 week with much effort. Everybody have to get a chance. We are treating many fatally sick children and treating costly many incurable patients ( especially carcinomas ) so why not to try to save probably health child after 21st week? Is it still decision of mother to leave child in biological rubbish or not? Do doctor have to try to save everybody?
And please leave philosophical questions wheather unborn child is human or not. ( I think it is )
Paul from Czechia
I have not heard the full program, but it seems to me that people need to consider another angle to this debate. If the mother is getting an abortion because she does not want the child, how can we reasonably expect the mother/parents raise the child properly and give it what most would consider a “fair” shot at a decent life?
Most abortion protesters seem to be concerned with getting every child into the world, but once they are born they are no longer concerned with making certain they are all raised properly free of abuse and neglect.
Greg from Texas, USA
@ Leo
I’d probably be pro abortion if men were given a say, and the argument was about overpopulation, environmental impact, rather than a childish “i want this, shut up, I don’t care what you think! I should be able to do whatever I want!” arguments that are currently made in favor of abortion.
In Cambodia, it is easy to have an abortion. You just go to private clinic or hospital and pay just around 20 or 30US$. My sister is a nurse and used to run a private clinic. I think that illiteracy and poor sexual education result in abortion. I think that abotion is sin and people should not do abortion.
Sambath in Taiwan
People have their different theories about when an embryo can be considered a person, but people often make an exception when the life of the mother is at risk. That seems to involve a value judgment that puts the fully-developed mother above a fetus. Yes, there’s POTENTIAL for the result to be a sentient human being, but so is there some potential in every egg. Still, I agree with a 22 week limit. Beyond that perhaps it shouldn’t be the government’s business.
As for parental rights, in most cases the father accepted the risk by having unprotected or improperly protected sex. In cases of rape, the father certainly has no say, even if he was at some point a boyfriend. I have to wonder if most men would demand sole rights to their body if they were capable of experiencing unintended pregnancy and all the lifelong changes that come with it. Not everyone is ready to be a good parent, and that can translate to societal ills (including premature/crime-related death).
The debate over when life begins misses a critical point. A LIVING sperm unites with a LIVING egg to form a zygote, which has the potential of becoming a new human being.
Women everywhere ought to have the right to determine the disposition of the zygote, or fetus, they carry up until birth.
Do ‘right to lifers’ think that if all life is sacred we should save all the littler spermies?
Steve
Berkeley, California
For those who are NOT Pro-Choice, what do they want?
Do they want these women to have the children as punishment?
Give it up for adoption?
Will those that are Pro-Life raise all these children they don’t want aborted? How does a woman who has an abortion (who Pro-choice people do not know) affect their lives????
People need to mind their own business and worry about their own lives.
Sheri,
Cleveland, Ohio
Abortion is both legal as well as moral issue. After a certain stage of development, human life is there and then it is all about whether we can get rid of that human life. For me it is inhuman morally and crime legally unless abortion is to safe another human life.
Regards,
Mohammud from Graz Austria.
A pregnant woman who does not wish to carry her fetus to term has many different ways to abort the fetus available to her beyond physician-performed abortions. All of these options, many of which have been practiced for centuries and millennia, are much more harmful to the woman, even potentially fatal. So, in my opinion, the question is not whether women will abort fetuses–they will–but rather whether they will be able to do so safely.
David, North Carolina
Listening to your female guest I have heard no reason other then self serving and selfish reasons. It was not a good time for ME, it would have been tough for ME, it would have been hard for ME. ME, ME, Me… What about the unborn life. There is plenty of choice before a life is created. Not jumping in the sack with some guy, using a contraceptive, abstaining. When the life is created the choice has been made. Like my grandmother has said, you made your bed and you must sleep in it.
Unfortunately folks that believe in free choice want to ignore responsibility and the fact that they are terminating a life. You cannot deny that this is a life.
I had an X-wife who had an abortion from an affair, a daughter that aborted a child, and two son’s whose girl friends got pregnant. They did not have an abortion and I am now the grandfather of two wonderful children. I am very sad about those children that were aborted.
I am strongly against an abortion now.
Girls ALWAYS have a choice.
Skip – Chesterland, Ohio
since medical science has reached the point where in vitro fertilization is a standard procedure. why isn’t it possible to have an in vitro transfer of an embryo? as to when life begins, the unique genetic dna of an individual human being is created the instant moment when the sperm and egg join together.
eric
melbourne beach, florida
I think that you are missing the point with some women and girls. With the lack of sex education in the western world and with human nature being such. There are a great deal of girls as young as 12 and some women who cannot or have the ability to raise a child. As a former child welfare worker I have seen in many cases that the child would have been better off not being born. Young girls who are pregnant in school face ridicule and social stigma. While there maybe some advocate of adoption to some young people this is not a option.
I think that abortions are legit reason for a lot of ladies, for many purposes…from being rape, incest and financial restraints…..
@ Sambath via email: I don’t support your remarks about it is a sin, but i concur with you in most times…it does not benefit anyone….
Dennis~Madrid, U.S.A.
Abortion is neither right or wrong, but just like sex out of wedlock and the use of drugs, it is unenforceable and therefore a waste of law enforcement funds.
Roberto
I am no longer for abortion, since becoming a grandmother. I haven’t heard anyone talk about the rights of the Paternal parent and their choice in the process of aborting a child. Does that play a part in the laws being written there? In India? In the UK?
Theresa
The entire debate can be summed up in a two-word question: who decides?
The state?
Some religious body?
The male who provided the sperm?
Since pregnancy itself is life-threatening, no woman should be compelled to endure the dangers and rigors of pregnancy.
Our child was wanted. Our child was planned. But the pregnancy was not!
As for referring to that growing inside a pregnant woman as a child, that identification can ONLY be made by the pregnant woman.
For OTHERS to make that definition, it is as intellectually honest as referring to acorns as ‘unsprouted oaks.’
Human reproduction may take a man and a woman, but if is NOT 50-50!
A couple will sexually unite for a matter of minutes, and for the next nine months the woman carries all the risks, while the male is nothing more than a spectator, physiologically safe and secure.
Mark
Silver Lake OH
I have always held the opinion that I could never get an abortion, BUT, I would never assume to make that decision for someone else. It is a personal decision. I have never understood people who think they should decide (with laws) for others.
Linda in Portland, OR
@ Theresa via email on May 20,2008 (7.37pm)
Congrats to your family on the birth of your grandchild (i am sorry for not saying grandson and or granddaughter)….
Dennis~Madrid, U.S.A.
Ian from Arizona~
Sanctity is a quality of sacredness, itself a concept of spirituality. To consider all life as sacred will put you in the extremes of the Jains who eat only fallen fruit and wear masks to avoid inhaling stray life. Where does THAT end?
We decide when to terminate it through the process of ethical reasoning and the ethics of humanism are distinct from the ethics of religion.
For instance, I oppose capital punishment but not because of a sacredness of life – I simply feel it is an easy out for someone who should live as long as possible with the price and burden of their crime.
I’m not saying the concept of sanctity is bogus – my daughter is sacred to ME. I’m just pointing out that it is extremely hard to rationalize opposition to abortion without resorting to arguments that cannot be reasoned with.
Sadly, I believe this discussion has shifted from at what age is it ok to if it’s a person and if it’s okay. I believe it’s a moral issue, if you’ve had unprotected sex, you have to choice to wipe it clean, or accept the issue. Regardless, I think based on science, a fetus should be able to be terminated before it begins to breath.
Allan, Ohio
Steve:
I totally agree with you.
I think it’s ridiculous that some want to make it so that no one can have a abortion.
Dear World Have Your Say:
I take issue with the idea that the choice to have or to not have an abortion is a matter of respect.
I grew up in a very affluent neighborhood where 99% of my high school class went onto higher education. These were educated, intelligent, ambitious people.
No women in my high school class carried a child to term. But I know for a fact that some women did become pregnant.
People can say all they will about respect and caution but we need to keep in mind that, in many cases, we are talking about young men and women who are discovering their sexuality and raging with hormones. I’m not convinced that respect is a genuine factor in this equation.
Sincerely,
Bob
Northern California, USA
I listen to this show all the time and i really appreciate it but today I am appalled at how Ros is treating the British guest who is bravely standing up for women’s rights and speaking about her experience of having an abortion. Abortion has always happened, legally or not, medically or not, since the beginning of time. You cannot ask a woman to imagine not being able to end a pregnancy – the question itself is biased and makes her choice seem like a whim rather than personal family planning.
– Sole
If abortion had been legal in New York State in 1939, I’m quite sure that I would not be here today. My mother was a high school girl who had to drop out of school to have me. I’m now 68-years-old, have had two very satisfying careers, I believe that I have lived life of service to my fellow man, I have a wonderful family — and I strongly support a woman’s choice in this issue. The government should stay out of it as much as possible.
Abortion should be rare but it should also be safe. Most of all, it is a moral and medical decision that should not be made by the government. Some women may make the wrong decision but the community should not make the decision for them. The community’s role should be to support our girls and women and help them to grow up with the character and morals to make the right decision.
Jim.
The Irish lawyer may like to tell the audience how many thousand women travel every year to mainland UK for an abortion. I think she is being disingenuous and economical with the truth.
It is also true that, according to the UN, abortion rates remain the same regardless of the law of the country.
Stuart
Dublin
Actually I don’t know enough to say, so I will shut up and let others do the talking.
@ Sole
Murder has always happened too. Should we tolerate that too? War has always happened. Ros’ question was from the point of view if you lived in a country where they outlawed abortion and people respected the laws, meaning if you got pregnant, and didn’t have a miscarriage, in 9 months, a baby comes out. Would that make a woman more likely to take more precautions?
I am a 25 year old girl from the US. I think that parents, such as the woman who called in who raised her children not to have pre-marital sex, are a huge part of the problem. My parents have similar attitudes to her, and I had to lie to them as a teenager about why I needed to take birth-control. I was sent to a religious high school with no sex education. There are many teenagers in similar situations, who are forced to have abortions by those same parents who refused to educate them about safe-sex and birth control in the first place. I think that education and open-minds are key to preventing unwanted pregnancy in the first place.
Shira
Abortion is illigal in most African countries but we cant deny its taking place, much more than we imagine. Much as we protect the unborn lives, we also have to protect the mother’s life and if the solution is abortion, then it has to be done.
As therma has said we should just regulate it so that it is done safely.
Horace
@Steve,
If my mother had an abortion I would not be here. I am here because she made many decisions, but I can’t even fathom the question because I am lucky to have been raised by a mother and father that wanted kids. I have seen many situations where the woman keeps the kids and loves the kids but they hate the father, so the kids suffer. Some women will blame the child or be digusted that the child is a constant reminder of the worthless man she chose to sleep with.
I think it is good some men feel this way and have certain morals. I would not get in a relationship if I knew a man felt like that. Everyone has different experiences and I think some women would want to to be able to properly care for a child than having a child and not know if you can support the child. By the way, just because child support and welfare is available, does not mean that every woman would want to depend on that to support herself and a child.
Thankfully, I am not having kids until I am married. Plus, I am not going to work while they are young. But that does not mean I think that women that work are bad parents, its a personal choice. Abortion is not really similar to the situation but people have to live their own lives.
The majority of antiabortionists are hypocrites. If they truly agonize every time fertilized cells are destroyed, then they shouldn’t be spending hundreds of millions of dollars removing effective sex education from our schools and reducing access to effective affordable birth control.
Their actions strongly suggest that their true mission is to ensure that women pay the price for having sex when they do not want to have a baby. That would explain why the zealots agonize over fertilized eggs and fetuses, but once the baby is out of the woman’s body their empathy vanishes. Zealots don’t agonize about babies who will face a much higher risk of being physically and emotional abused. “After all”, they say, “at least they are alive”.
What a tragic cop out. Those of us who have cared for beaten, neglected children understand that the ending of a pre-term pregnancy, while sad, is light-years away from the prolonged, intense suffering that is endured by emotionally and physically abused children.
These zealots ignore the damage their activities do to the rest of society. As they become increasingly effective in pulling realistic sex education from our schools, making birth control difficult to obtain, and restricting access to abortion, the rest of us are left to deal with the fallout. Although most of us support effective sex education, birth control, and legal abortion, we are forced to deal with the increasing number of unwanted babies growing up so emotionally damaged that they are unable to live productive lives. More and more of our taxes will have to go to drug treatment programs, mental health care, special education, increased law enforcement, and prisons. Taxes that could be used for better public education, healthcare, and essential infrastructure.
Meanwhile the zealots will continue working feverishly to make certain that thousands of more babies are born each day to women who won’t able to provide safe, loving homes.
@Rita
“Meanwhile the zealots will continue working feverishly to make certain that thousands of more babies are born each day to women who won’t able to provide safe, loving homes”
So they’re better off dead, eh?
~ John from Salem
Thank you for your answer. I appreciate this dialog that we share and look forward to your reply.
Please correct me if I am wrong, but you believe that the ethics of humanism is different than the ethics of religion? I looked up humanism and was provided a definition of: “A system of thought that rejects religious beliefs and centers on humans and their values, capacities, and worth”. So, for my understanding, humanist believe that humans have no worth, according the the premises of the program, until they are 24 weeks old and capable of doing something beneficial.
I very much disagree with this view. Life has value at all times and at all ages. Ethics of religion also centers on humans and growing their values, capacities, and worth. I see no separation between the two, other than humanist do not believe in God. From religious, humanism, whatever beliefs you want, when ethics is what you believe is right and wrong. The values seem the same.
I have not heard the story of Janis (I will do some research on that). But from what I can reason from what you wrote; yes, there is an extreme. Should terminating a fetus be considered part of that extreme? No. There are other ways to get rid of an unwanted pregnancy. One option I have mention in a previous post, adoption. Another is below and address to all WHYS listeners.
(To All WHYS Listeners; for other who have mentioned that aborting a child is justified because they are being responsible and helping our planet’s over-population problem, I would respectfully disagree. Those individuals are using abortion as an “easy out”. Where is your responsibility? The vast majority of the time, individuals have the choice whether or not to have sex. Their are many, many options of birth control. I would like to suggest using other methods of birth control instead of using abortion as birth control. You can avoid creating a life instead of killing life.)
I agree, that sanctity is a quality of sacredness. And, yes, all life is sacred because it was all created by God. It is up to us what we do with our life. I apologize for not recalling the callers name, but one of the last callers on the program today mentioned that the difference between her aborted baby, and the child she carried to term, is that the aborted baby was just a bunch of cells. Are we all just a bunch of cells?
You mentioned you oppose capital punishment because it is an “easy out”. (I agree.) As a humanist, shouldn’t you be for capital punishment because society has deemed those individuals to have no worth? They have gone against societies values, so shouldn’t we terminate them? I would argue that abortion an “easy out” for parents who refuse to take responsibility for their own actions? I would think that humanist would believe in taking responsibility for your actions and not taking the “easy out”.
@Rita
Very well said!
The vast majority of the anti-abortion crowd are “Christian” men. They are cut from the same cloth as all the religious zealots from around the world who want to CONTROL women’s sex lives.
There must be magical thinking to make their arguments work. “Precious” human lives are being “murdered,” they wail. And yet there are the countless orphans, the forgotton, the rejected, damaged, and outcast EVERYWHERE amongst us.
@Ian from Az,
“…all life is sacred because it was all created by God.”
When you say that, I assume that you mean that ALL life was created by YOUR god? This is a belief that you hold in a supernatural being. Nothing more than that.
Lots of us don’t believe that your god exists at all. Lots of us believe that our god is okay with abortion. Lots of us believe that the gods have no opinion on what we mortals get up to. Should we all have to behave according to what you believe your god wants?
Thank you for this comment facility.To my mind the contents, functions and future of my body “belong” to me and I’m legally and morally responsible for the choices I make whether these are legal or illegal, moral or immoral.
Abortion is genocide/murder:
To view it as “a woman’s right to choose”, is sugar coating murder/genocide.
It can be rationalized any way one chooses to put it, but it really is killing a person.
I do not believe in any religion, but abortion is wrong.
The other half of the act, the man, has just as much a right to have a say about the the killing of a person as the woman.
Some can argue that it is the woman’s right to choose, but once the conception starts it is no longer the exclusive place of the woman.
If only because it is often realized later, that the new person is about as innocent as,” we”, ever will be, and should not be killed.
The real tragic part of all this is the self examination women often do in hindsight. Especially if the woman never has any children later on, or in later years often wonders what could have been.
I have two wonderful sons. Both by different wives. They are the light of my life.
While single for some 20 years after the birth of my first son I was with a woman who was pregnant and wanted an abortion. I did not want her to destroy that life.
She ended up having the abortion and I always thought it was inhumane. Finally at 50 I married again and had another son. He is now 11 years old and a total joy.
The real tragidy is the self image many of these women have of themselves as they grow old and look in the mirror. Somewhere, deeply inside of themselves, they don’t like themselves very much and rationalize it what-ever-which-way. They eventually regret not meeting their son or daughter, that they killed.
A womans right to choose ends when she submits to letting some guy inject her with sperm. That pleasure, usually has ramifications.
troop
~ FortyLegz
Thank you for your comments. I respectivly disagree with them, but I recongize the point that you were making.
It’s interesting that you focus on religious points. The exchange between John and I were about, as John put it, “rational” arguements. I feel that I presented a very rational case on why I am against abortion and why I feel abortion has become to easy.
I understand that you are pro choice. Their are choices to be made. As a woman, and a responsible person, you are in control of your sex life. You deciede whether or not to use birth control. If you decide not to use birth control, then you deciede to be responsible if you become pregnant. But life begins when egg is fertilized, not when you decided to live up to your responsibilities. Aborting a life because you don’t want it is not being responsible. You do have the choice from the very beginning.
I don’t think their is any “magical thinking”, as you would say, to these points. I think the points I have presented are all rational. Regardless, I don’t think justingfying abortion with “the countless orphans, the forgotton, the rejected, damaged, and outcast everywhere amongst us” is a rational arguement. I think that people who use that argument are using those children as a justification to their decision. Aborting a child doesn’t help those children that you mention. Sex education, donation of time, money, materials, etc is what helps those children. Using those children as an excuse for an persons lack of responsibility is sad.
To address the point you directed to me: I’m sorry that you feel that your God doesn’t care enough to take an interest in what “us mortals do”. However, I do not believe that there is a difference between your God and my God. I think where you see a difference is the misinterpretation of God’s message, and that is why we have so many different churches. Unlike you, I do not force my view upon anyone and I do not speak for anyone but myself. You have every right to believe what you believe and totally disregard what I believe. Though, I’m sure you will agree that I have the right to voice my opinion. I am sorry if you felt like I was forcing my opinion on you. That was not my intention.
Ian from Arizona
@Ian fro Arizona,
Ian you say, “But life begins when egg is fertilized, not when you decided to live up to your responsibilities. Aborting a life because you don’t want it is not being responsible. You do have the choice from the very beginning.”
Just as I said, you anti abortionists want to control women’s sex lives. Just say no.
I don’t believe that a human’s “life begins when an egg is fertilized.” I believe that life begins when the pregnant one decides to carry to full term. Give my notion a few seconds of thought…. if she doesn’t want to carry to full term, she thinks of her pregnancy as a fetus, a mass of cells, an embryo. But if she is going to full term, it is a “baby.”
You are the one who said that, “…all life is sacred because it was all created by God.” My reply is what god? A woman’s choices should be limited because of what you believe a supernatural being cares about?
@ Fortylegz
So if you’re saying that life begins when the pregnant one decides to carry for full term, that means that for all other animal species, life begins at conception, but for humans it begins when the mother decides not to kill the offspring before it’s born? Different definition of the beginning of life for humans vs all other species? Interesting. Seems a bit self serving.
Women’s choices shouldn’t be limited due to what a fictional deity cares about but rather what’s best for the innocent child that has no say in the matter, and whose one chance at living lays in the hands of someone who has the “choice” to determine whether they get that one chance or not. Remember, each aborted child never gets to live their life, it’s their only chance. They don’t get another chance. I know that’s inconvenient for your argument, but doesn’t take away from the truth, given there is no reincarnation, no afterlife. Just dead. This is their one chance. So you’re saying that a mother’s convenience is more important than someone else’s life?
Couple of Minor and repetitive points.
1) it is not always the mother who is charged with looking after the child the rest of the life. More and more it is getting common for men to be awarded custody.
2) politics are tun by women and men. We see a woman as a viable candidate for the highest office in the land. The most powerful position in the senate is held by a woman. That is outdated thinking.
3) religion is not the only foundation for anti-abortion. I am also an atheist. However, if you are of a religious persuasion I could not see how you could look your chosen deity in the eye on your judgment day and say, “sorry, I thought you were wrong to give me that life. I was too busy having sex with men I was not involved with enough to get married. “
4) I have a one year old that relies on my for nourishment. I put my body and safety on the line sometimes so she can survive. Does that mean I can “choose” not to have her anymore? It is a life, It is a human life, and it is the result of male and the females decision
5) population in the world is not a problem. Ignorance, irresponsibility, and hypocrisy are a rampant problem. But there is plenty of room for all of us. There are so many unwanted children that grow up to be important parts of the community. Many of the ones that don’t got a bad shake at many other junctures in life.
6) Women who will go through the process of illegal abortions and risk their lives are of no concern. You wouldn’t say that about a drug mule would you? The procedure would be illegal and if you try to skirt the law and get injured or killed that is why there is a law.
A major point nobody talked about. The ease of contraception in this day and age is incredible. First you have the pill. If you can’t have the responsibility to take the pill, depro shots, or vaginal inserts, then there is a condom. You are going to let a guy you are willing to start a family with leave a deposit of bodily fluid inside you? If that fails. There is “The morning After” pill. This is shown to be 95% effective when taken in the first 48 hours!! The next morning when the guilt sets in, go get the morning after. If you can not demonstrate a level of responsibility encompassed in these options, then maybe you should not be adding genes to the pool.
@ Steve,
We aren’t like the animals, as many who believe in “innocence” are quick to tell us in other arguments.
We now have much more control over our lives than animals have. And finally after eons of male dominance, some women are able to choose whether or not they want to bear a child.
But I am not saying that, “a mother’s convenience is more important than someone else’s life?” You keep saying that. I am saying that in many cultures and countries women get to CHOOSE if they want to have a child. You believe that there is a person there when cell and sperm unite. I dont believe there is a person there until the pregnant person DECIDES to carry to full term.
To think, some child that is aborted may have grown up to be a Hitler or a Stalin, but might have also invented a cure for cancer or diabetes instead. We’ll never know.
As Dwight as stated, there are many contraceptive choices out there. But then again, I really think this tends to be an issue about irresponsibility. Despite the risks, people go out, get drunk, get high, and then have an easy out that prevents them from having to deal with the consequences of their actions. Sometimes it’s just stupidity. This girl I met 4 years ago, at a wedding, and drunkish she walks up to me, starts talking, and basically within an hour of meeting her she told me (1) she had an abortion when she was in high school, despite all the sex education, and hippie parents. (2) when she was 19, she had another abortion because she for some reason though if you had an abortion, you become sterile. This is despite having had sex ed in Washington State, and hippie parents. And to top it off, she wanted to have sex that night, right there, despite me having no condoms on me (at a wedding reception, duh), despite her past two abortions. Needless to say, she is stupid. Is your stupidity a reason for aborting your child?
@ fortylegz
perhaps a better way of choosing would be to use birth control? condoms? rather than saying life begins when you decide it begins? Again, that’s very self serving. You no more “own” or “control” the destiny of a child than you “own” the driver’s license in your wallet. It’s in your wallet, but it belongs to the state. They can take it back without your permission. Same with credit cards. Your bank could walk right up to you, take your wallet, take out the credit card, and cut it up with scissors.
Great points, Steve.
One thing that has always bothered me is the power imbalance.
A woman gets complete say over whether the baby lives or dies. The man has no say.
If the woman wants an abortion but the man desperately wants the baby, it doesn’t matter.
And if the woman wants the baby and the man doesn’t, he’s still on the hook financially for the next 18 years plus.
I think it’s outrageous that some women view abortion as a form of birth control (and I’m not the least bit religious).
Just curious: For those who are totally pro-choice…if a man kills his pregnant wife, is he guilty of one count of murder or two?
@Steve,
Your arguments have fallen to pieces:
You say, “Your bank could walk right up to you, take your wallet, take out the credit card, and cut it up with scissors.”
I have never seen a bank walking.
You say, “Despite the risks, people (you mean stupid women) go out, get drunk, get high, and then have an easy out that prevents them from having to deal with the consequences of their actions.”
Hunh? Drunk or high WOMEN that get pregnant OUGHT to have to “deal with” their accidental pregnancies by being forced to carry to full term?
@ fortylegz
You know what I meant when I said bank.
And I said “people”, not “stupid women”. Drunk, high people have sex, and don’t use protection. Why should the give suffer over carelessness of others”? There are men that want women to have abortions too, it’s an easy out for them too.
Just curious: For those who are totally pro-choice…if a man kills his pregnant wife, is he guilty of one count of murder or two?
It is my understanding that men who have killed pregnant women have often been tried for two murders.
Here is an instance:
OKLAHOMA CITY — Oklahoma County prosecutors have charged a man with two counts of first-degree murder in the death of a woman and her unborn baby, but they haven’t decided whether the death penalty will be sought.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=071214_1__OKLAH72682
@ Brett.
Oops. My mistake. In Canada, a woman can legally have an abortion at nine months pregnant…so the police would never be able to charge someone with two counts of murder (unfortunately).
I guess in other countries, assuming the woman is far enough along in the pregnancy, it could easily be viewed as two counts of murder (and should be!).
If a woman was newly pregnant (less than 20 weeks let’s say) would it still be two counts of murder?
From the article:
Barnes, also 20 and believed to have been 22 to 26 weeks pregnant, was discovered a week later.
I’m sure less than 20 weeks, someone would still press for 2 counts of murder, if it hasn’t happened already.
Brings up a very good point about who decides it is a ‘person’ with legal rights, who doesn’t, and when those decisions are to be made.
Exactly my point.
Let’s pretend that a woman is 18 weeks pregnant. She is murdered. Is it two counts of murder?
What if the woman was planning on having an abortion? Does that really change things?
Maybe this is all a process of natural selection. Maybe the squirrelheaded women are the ones that stop their line, because somehow deep, deep down they are actually not worth extending their gene pool on earth.
All the women who I see getting abortions really leave me with the thoughts, that they would only screw up another persons life, too bad they are killers of humans.
And not held accountable for acts of war and killing, same as folks like those bad ones in the funny little hats, that bring such pain and suffering to so many people who kill kids, and women in acts of power and dominance.
troop
Brett,
Regarding 2 counts of murder question:
local jurisdictions have enacted ordinances about charging people differently when they kill a woman who is pregnant when she dies. These laws vary by jurisdiction. In such locals, the person charged with the murder of a pregnant woman could be charged with another crime depending upon how far along she is with the pregancy. Exactly how far along depends on the local law. The law would not apply only to men who commit the murder of a pregnant woman (as you imply) but to a man or a woman who kills a pregnant woman who meets the criteria of that local government. These laws exist because people disagree about when life begins, as has been discussed here.
Steve (and others)
If you know anything about birth control, you know that it doesn’t always work. If birth control always worked, the world would be less crowded.
If you believe that life begins at conception or 5 weeks or even 10 weeks, why don’t you believe that male sperm are sacred? Doesn’t life begin with sperm? People trying to get pregnant often look to find what the “live” sperm count is. Should men who dispose of live sperm that could become babies be charged with a crime? Instead of legislating what happens in a woman’s body, why not legislate what happens in a man’s body as well? Disposing of viable sperm without the intent to have a baby could also be made illegal.
Legislate what happens in my body only if I can legislate what happens in yours.
You say you hate that women get to choose to continue the pregnancy or not. The real issue you raise isn’t about babies, or when life begins, it’s about male control over women, isn’t it?
Well, Helen you just about wrapped up the core of the whole question by stating that it’s really all about “male control over women”.
I’m reminded of what Hillary Clinton was saying in an interview earlier today about the ugly and undisguised face of misogyny that has emerged during the presidential race. The male power structure that permeates and dominates the entire global infrastructure is willing to do anything to perpetuate itself.
The thought that life-affirming female values could replace the cauldron of death that the entire planet has been simmering in for centuries is something that the power-structure can’t stand. The Church can’t stand it, the mullahs can’t stand it, the military REALLY can’t stand it, the male-dominated corporate business and media power structure can’t stand it, and maybe most depressing of all is that patriarchy supporting women can’t stand it.
The Church has to justify its existence as the worlds oldest boys-only club. The mullahs want to keep women invisible, silent and uncomfortable as burka-wearing baby-making machines. The military needs the next generation of cannon fodder for the next war and the next and the next and the next… And the transnationalistas want a sign put up on the door to the oval office: MEN ONLY NEED APPLY.
And yes, having access to safe abortion IS life-affirming in that the choice of where and when to reproduce is the only way this poor overpopulated planet is going to survive. Did you know that one of every four species has become extinct in recent years due to human activity?
All but two species are decreasing in numbers. Only humans and….insects….are increasing. So while humans are beginning to riot over food shortages and the men who run the show keep throwing military might at every problem and crisis, the busy little insects keep reproducing.
Or maybe WE are the insects.
Good day Ros,
It’s my pleasure to join you on this programme.
My dear Country men and women, it is better to correct somebody openly, than to let him think you don’t care for him at all.If the British parliament will take a good decision to cut the rate of abortion,then I’ll be in support with them.Human life is very important.Anyone who is taking away life,ought not to be born.People who commit abortion are committing an offence before God and man.In my country Cameroon it is not too easy to have an abortion.This act is committed is some part of the country.Those who are committing this act,are doing it in hiding area.Anyone caught,in this act will be punished by the law and sentenced to prison.
Dear parents, to be pround of your daughters. Please keep a close watch over them.If you don’t take care of them,they may make a fool of you in front of your enemies. You’ll be a constant joke to everyone in town, a public disgrace.Give them Sound education teach them how to work don’t allow them to go their way. Teach them good ethics and morals.Then you’ll smile at the appointed time of God.Please,don’t hestitate to correct someone who is acting foolishly or an old man who goes about with prostitutes. All this is worth while advice, and if you follow it, everyone will approve your behaviour.A person’s body amounts to nothing;but a good reputation will last for ever. Protect your reputation, it will outlive you and last longer than a thousand treasures of gold.
I love my country Cameroon and the world.Let’s make the world a better place. Good things are happening to those who are patient. Hello, if you work hard you shall achieve many things in your life.A hard-working man has plenty to eat.Hard work will give you power; being lazy will make you a slave. If you’re lazy you’ll never get what you are after, but if you work hard, you will get a fortune.
Parents, discipline your children while they are young enough to learn. If you don’t you are helping them to destroy themselves.Parents,from your examples,teach them to fear the LORD and let them love their homes.The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom and success.
My fellow young men and women, Any kind of food can be eaten, but some are better than others. A woman’s beauty makes a man happy. If the woman is kind and gentle in her speech,then she deserves a good husband,and her husband will be the most fortunate of men. When a man marries, he gets the finest thing he will ever have.So then look for someone to marriage and not someone to commit abortion with her.Gentlemen,if you truly love your girl.you shall never advice her to abort your child.You’ll do everything to handle the responsibility.Be wise in the way you live your life.
Young people,don’t think that nobody can exercise authority over you.Don’t do anything that pleases you.Listen to the advice of your parents.If you obey them in every good thing they teach you,then,you shall always be trading on the right path.Everyone will love you.You’ll live long.The LORD will bless you with a good husband and wife.Your will be very fruitful.Your children will live to obey you.Stop giving bad advice to your friends to commit abortion.Those who deserve punishment in the act of abortion are;the girl,boy and the doctor.Some doctors deserves to go to prison.They know why.
Be submissive and God will lift you up.Oncemore,dear young people,if you respect your parents and listen to good advice given to you by everyone.then,one day your own children will make you happy and God will hear your prayers.Be sincere and determine, keep calm when trouble comes. Stay with the lord never abandon him and you will be prosperous at the end of your days. Accept whatever happens to you. Even if you suffer humiliation, be patient. Never give up.Never do anything without thinking it through, and once you have done something don’t look back, and wish you had done something else.Don’t be too sure of yourself even when the way look easy, always watch where you’re going,whatever thing you do be careful. Always encourage one another towards success not destruction. Never discourage someone who is heading towards success. If you do, you may as well,account for that destruction oneday. Encourage the talent that God has given everyone.
That’s all I can share with you on this topic.I wish to join you some other time.I wish you a lovely day.
I answer Fonjong Terence Tah.Goodbye
@ Helen
“If you believe that life begins at conception or 5 weeks or even 10 weeks, why don’t you believe that male sperm are sacred? Doesn’t life begin with sperm? People trying to get pregnant often look to find what the “live” sperm count is. Should men who dispose of live sperm that could become babies be charged with a crime? Instead of legislating what happens in a woman’s body, why not legislate what happens in a man’s body as well? Disposing of viable sperm without the intent to have a baby could also be made illegal.”
Don’t be silly. sperm isn’t a zygote. Neither is the egg. Once it is fertilized, then it is is a separate life, worthy of protection by the state. Should your sneezes be sacred and protected by law since there is living matter in it? I don’t think so.
The argument made on here by Fortylegz was that “it’s life when I say it’s life” which is very selfish and damages the pro choice cause by making it all about selfishness. My suggestion was coming up with reasons for abortion that don’t revolve around the selfishness of the woman who wants an abortion “oh, I’m not read, ohhh it will inconvenience me” “even though I made the mistake, the baby should suffer for my poor decisions”.
I was reading the comments on the BBC’s regular HYS, about this same topic, and I read the same, poor arguments in support of abortion. In fact, some were worse. One commentor said that if a woman is forbidden from having an abortion, and she dies in childbirth, whomever forbade abortion should be charged with murder. I’ve never heard an argument that dying of natural causes is murder. That’s a new one. That’s like saying if a doctor refused to perform an experimental cancer treatment on a patient, that if the patient later dies, the doctor should be charged with murder, despite the doctor not being the cause of the cancer.
This is a grown up issue. Grown up arguments need to be made, not the typical “i should be able to do anything I want to do!” that 7 year olds make.
Hi Ros:
Isn’t the abortion debate one that meanly concerns religious fanatics?
But on a more serious note, I think the issue should be largely left to the people (parents) who ultimately have to care for the child in question. But not withstanding, no one should just be allowed to engage in carefree sex and then dump/destroy the end result at will. People should be encouraged more to use contraception.
I am over 30 and currently don’t have a child, though my wife, who’s residing in the United States really wants one. But the decision not to have children yet has been a conscious one taken in consideration of several factors most especially as it concerns having the time to care for them.
Lamii Kpargoi
@ double homicide- Scott Peterson is in prison on two counts of murder.
@ Male control over women? Ludicrous. Narrow minded, backwards thinking, self centered, paranoid, feminist, whoopla. There would be no social or cultural advantage of making women go to full term. By what elements of a logical statement do you arrive at that conclusion. In English, “Men control women by illegalizing abortion. This control results in what?” There has to be a reason.
@ birth controls ineffectiveness. Most of them boast a 99% success rate. I would accept a 99.9% reduction in abortions. That is like saying that there is one percent of the time people don’t get addicted to crack, so it should be legal.
@ sacred sperm. A farmer dose not count the corn stalks in his field by the number of seeds in his bag. He would also never plant a corn he didn’t intend to grow. Nor would he hoe one up once it started. Seeds are just seeds. If I had a half of a $100 bill, It would be worthless scrap. I need the other half. If you want to go down the road for holding people lawfully responsible for having unprotected sex, then lets dance. If you show up for an abortion we will give it to you, but we throw you in jail for 6 months total. The male and the female. If the female doesn’t know the guy and how to get a hold of him? Then she spends the whole time.
These arguments make no logical, scientific sense. They are only a way to protect the right to be irresponsible, That is what will ultimately ruin humanity.
@ a new policy. I would start offering a financial incentive to single women to get birth control implants? Maybe as much as ten grand a year.
@ Dwight
But then liberals and conservatives would whine about birth control implants and a financial incentive. Liberals will whine that it will primarily be used by minorities and will give ammo that whites are trying to breed out non whites, and conservatives will say that women shouldn’t have to be paid to stop having kids, despite 10k is probably a lot cheaper than welfare and other state aid used to support single mothers. Plus there’s the whole “fundamental right to have children” that the Supreme court has unfortunately found. Personally I believe having children should require a license, so that the stupidest people cannot breed, and put other people at risk. Stupid people put other people at risk of danger, from their stupid behaviors. How would someone feel if their entire family got killed because some idiot decided to drive ther wrong way down a highway? Stupid people do stupid things.
Steve,
A zygote is not a human being, anymore than sperm is. Sperm is separately alive, just like a zygote. You can’t have it both ways. That is the point I was making. If you legislate the treatment of zygotes it makes just as much sense to legislate the treatment of male sperm.
Forcing women to continue with a pregnancy has a financial impact on the woman. Financial means are very effective ways of controlling groups of people and exercising power over them. Yes, this is about power over women, power over their lives, power over income, power over choice.
Finally, I politely ask you to please not describe what you think others will say in hypothetical situations. It simply makes what is supposed to be a civil discussion become inflammatory.
I also ask you to discontinue the name calling, and I ask the hosts of this blog to better monitor for plain old rudeness.
.
@ Steve.
Like i have posted before. Liberals call me Hitler, Conservatives call me Bleeding heart lazy tree hugger. If we all want to abandon the cities and go back to living separate isolated lives where the decisions we make effect nobody but ourselves and our immediate family, then lets get the wrecking ball rolling. Start by pulling all money from government programs that aid the financially disadvantage. Money goes for defense, law enforcement, dispute resolution, and operations. However, through all of our disdain and ridicule of “communism” we are no living in tightly knitted “communities”. Our government is designed to offer a leg up to the least advantaged of us. But it has to be imperative that regulations are put in place to stop the abuse of the collective good will.
Has anyone ever stopped to think about how sad a capacity limit on a life boat is? If there are this many people on the boat, then nobody else can get on. Disregard that rule and the whole boat sinks. I whish they could put a capacity rating on government support.
As an investment Steve, you have to admit that 10 grand probably has a great ROI. Considering the fact that it would also apply to women not getting pregnant and raising financially disadvantaged babies. The government is sending out “stimulus checks” they should really get something back for that
@ Helen
A Zygote is a lot more of a human being than a sperm cell, or an egg is. A zygote is a fertilized egg. your comment is like saying a fertilized chicken egg is no different than an egg sold for food which isn’t fertilized. They are VERY different. Egg sellers make sure the eggs are fertilized, becaus we don’t eat fertilized eggs. I do pray you know the difference between a zygote and the constituent parts (sperm and the egg). A zygote is a fertilized egg, it’s spilliting cells, growing organs, the process of independent, separate life. Two cells become three, then 4, and on and on…
“Forcing women to continue with a pregnancy has a financial impact on the woman. Financial means are very effective ways of controlling groups of people and exercising power over them. Yes, this is about power over women, power over their lives, power over income, power over choice.”
Yet women should have complete control over a man paying 18 years of child support? Trying to have your cake and eat it too?
Has there been name calling on here? I’m using “childish” in the sense of the arguments “I don’t care what you think, I can do whatever I want!” types of arguments are childish. There can be no denying it. It’s not a personal attack. It’s just a response to an argument that is based on “I should be able to do anything I want” when adults know they cannot do that in life. We cannot do anything we want. I cannot do cocaine, I cannot kill people that anger me, I cannot destroy an SUV that I see despite how much I hate them.
Steve,
It is far from childish for a parent to provide financial support to their children should the parents divorce and move on with their lives until they are 18 years of age, or if the other parent remarries and the other spouse chooses to adopt that child or children with the consent of the second parent. It is a parent’s responsibilty to provide for their children, which includes insurance, education just to name a few. Simply because is no longer in the physically present in the home, that parent is still responsible for the child or children. No amount of rationalizing will change that. Those who I have lisented to who object to child support are the most selfish self centered people on the face of the earth. Waaah! Waaah! Waaah! is all they do. They behave, and act the fool along with playing the victim. That is very far from being an adult.
Although I understand both parts of the argument. I am thankful I live in a country where I can choose what to do with my body and what grows in my body, to a certain extent. Additionally, I think it is better that we can argue about it versus being told by the government what we can and can’t do.
@ Angela
Can you really choose what to do with your body? Can you take illegal drugs? can you sell organs? Shouldn’t the choice of what grows in your body be done before the fact rather than after the fact? If condoms and birth control pills have such high success rates, or such low failure rates, if using more than one method, why are there still so many abortions? Because so many are being careless. It would be best to have the decision BEFORE you have another life inside of you than after. Again, I don’t see why the child should suffer due to the carelessness of the parents. Before not after.
Angela, go to some club in DC on a weeknight, then on a weekend, and see the women (and men) that are drunk beyond control, probably also high on cocaine, do you think they’re going to be “careful”? Is being a social drunk and drug user an excuse for not being responsible? I guaranty you, most of those Paris Hilton wannabees you see in Clubs here in DC have had abortions becuase they had too much to drink, and a bit too much cocaine. But is abortion really supposed to be the out for just such bad behavior? A method of birth control? I don’t think so. It’s not a substitute for someone being responsible. And so long as we allow it to be used as a form of birth control, people won’t be responsible.
Steve,
I never said women should have “complete control over a man paying 18 years of child support.” You said that.
The parent raising the child should receive support from the other parent, no matter the sex of the parent.
I am not sure what you mean by “having cake and eating it too.” Raising children is serious business. I have two adult children, one with a disability who still lives with me. I never had an abortion. I support every woman’s right to choose as protected by the United States Supreme Court.
You use words like “stupid,” “childish,” and “selfish” to describe the opinions of those with whom you disagree. I am trying to hear what you have to say, but your statements are inflammatory; your tone is angry; your responses to those who disagree with you is condescending. (For example, when you write “I do pray you know the difference…”) Maybe you don’t realize how you come across.
I try to listen to you, but it is very difficult to get far beyond some of your side remarks.
~ FortyLegz
I’m not sure how I, or the “anti abortionist”, want to control your’s, or women’s, sex lives. Especially when I fully admit, in past posts, that you are in control. Would you mind explaining to me how offering the opinion that abortion is wrong is controlling your (women’s) sex life? From my understanding, at any rate, abortion comes after sex, and after you (women) have become pregnant.
You still won’t admit that women have the responsibility, and the choice, before choosing to have sex. You could choose not to have sex. If you decide to have sex, then you have the choice to use birth control or not to. These are the choice of women. No man or anti abortionist is taking that away from you. No man or anti abortionist can force that on you. By choosing to have sex, you choose to take responsibility for your action. Even if you use birth control, and it fails, you are still responsible for the life that you create.
Your argument “that life begins when the pregnant one decides to carry to full time” makes absolutely no sense, even after a few seconds, or hours, of thought. What you argument saying is that even when you in labor you can decide that you are not pregnant, that the baby growing inside you isn’t live because you have not deemed it to be alive yet? Life begins when life begins, it isn’t something that can arbitrarily be determined. Just because the parent does not want the child does not make the life growing inside the women’s body just “a mass of cells” or less than human. How is that a rational argument? FortyLegz, both you and I are just a mass of cells. We just have more cells to us. There are better ways to get rid of an unwanted child then aborting it.
A women’s choice isn’t limited because what God cares about. (I answered you “what God” comment in a previous post.) A women’s choice, as I pointed out above, isn’t limited at all. Why do you consider abortion a suitable form of birth control? Doesn’t that prove the point that abortion is to easy if women can chose to use abortion as a form of birth control?
I look forward to your reply and to better understanding your point. I hope you will take the time to understand the point that I am making.
@ Angela, the only reason that is true is because the Supreme Court Justices are life time appointments. It is also why Hillary fanatics will flock to support whatever democratic candidate. There only needs to be one more liberal justice to step down and the Roe v. Wade boat will flip like and over crowed life raft. The two oldest justices are liberal leaning.
@ Helen
Sorry you feel like I’m coming off across in an insulting manner, it’s not my intention. However many of the arguments made are just selfish, there can be no other word to describe “I want to do this, I don’t care what anyone else thinks” and when “this” means ending the life of your offspring, that’s pretty bad, so I’m sure whatever words I use are not nearly as bad as killing my offspring. Even had I intended to insult people, which I didn’t, I’m sure if they can have an abortion, terminating the life of their own offspring, I’m sure they can tolerate being called “selfish” or “childish”. I’m sure it takes some very thick skin to have an abortion. i wouldn’t be able to live with myself, but others can and do, so they must have thick skin.
@ Dwight
According to exit polling, many Hillary supporters have stated they will either vote for Mccain or not at all if Obama gets the nomination (so mature). “I didn’t get who I wanted! Not only are you sexist becuase Hillary didn’t win, but I will not vote!” At least not vote because politicians are scum, not becuase your person didn’t win.
Yes, this is about power over women, power over their lives, power over income, power over choice.”
…This about power over women and power over men, power over both their lives and that of the unborn (or potential) child, power over income of both parties, power over choice (which if I am to guess, is referring to the choice of abortion, not sex; If thats the case, as of now, all choices listed above are dictated by the female).
There, that paints a more accurate picture of the current situation and argument.
Despite what feminists and women rights activists want to believe, this isn’t all about women. Until people admit that and see the financial, biological, social, economic, and other sacrifices both sides make, regardless of if the baby (or potential baby) gets the axe or not, I don’t see any progress being made in this discussion.
I hope this doesn’t come out as being rude or sexist, but until you can engage in some form of asexual reproduction without a supporting partner of the opposite sex, it will never simply be all about one gender. Nor will it ever simply be about ‘power’ over one gender.
@ Brett
I realize this is nerdy, but watch the Star Trek Enterprise episode called Cogenitor. Some species has to use a third party to procreate. Imagine the problems that society would have if it existed.
Steve and Dwight
I have ful control over my body but I have to suffer the consequences of my actions. If I choose to have an abortion I would have to deal with the pain and agony of my decision. By the way, every women does not tell a man when she is pregnant and has an abortion, so the man does not always know what happened. I know if I were in the situation, I would not tell the father of my child, if I were contemplating abortion.
The simple fact of the matter is that all people do not view life the same. Their reasons are not always childish. Some people just don’t care and no matter what you tell them they don’t care.
Steve
By the way, I don’t go out in DC. I don’t want to be around a lot of AIDS infested people on the weekend or to hangout. I know many people in this area engage in several illicit activites. You want to them to learn do the right thing, but most of those people are stupid anyways. They don’t care about their life, let alone the life of another human being. So of course they are not responsible. But would you rather them have an abortion, or pay more in taxes for those idiots that can’t control themselves. My conscience is fine with other people having abortion. I believe life begins at conception but that is my view. I dont want or need to tell other people what to do because they are responsible for their own actions.
Brett,
Women have for centuries and continue to this day to take greater responsibility in child raising. There are exceptions to this, of course. Generally speaking, the burden (physical and financial) falls disproportionately on women.
Men, like women, can make a choice to use birth control or not have sex at all if they do not want the financial responsibility of children. However, when birth control fails, or when a woman is raped and she becomes pregnant, that choice to continue the pregnancy becomes her choice.
The question this blog is supposed to address is “Is it too easy to have an abortion in your country?” My answer regarding the United States is ‘no.” Even though we have the legal right to abortion, that right is under constant fire. Access continues to be limited, especially in rural parts of the country. When we defend that right, we are subject to criticism, name calling and attempts to make us feel guilty.
Is is too easy to get an abortion? No, even though it is legal.
It has never been an easy decision to make. The emotional nature of this blog underscores the difficulty.
@Angela
I would give up my last cent to save a life. Compassion has been my finical bane on many occasions.
If one ends up with an unwanted pregnancy that person obviously has no control of at least one part of her body. A woman can not “sell her body”. Society has decided that legalizing prostitution would encourage unethical and socially dangerous behaviors. This is no different the outcome of legalizing abortion has done.
Don’t know how many different ways to explain it. Poor people on government assistance is a different problem then killing a life. They are what in system design are called “adjacent malfunctions”. They share traits but are ultimately the result of two separate problems.
If getting an abortion wasn’t an option you can bet your bottom dollar that he would now about it. It is really not ethical not to tell him. Your, “freedom to choose” has come as a result of many young men willing to give their lives up to ensure it. With out their commitment to your freedom, you may find yourself in a situation that more resembles Asian or Middle Eastern ideologies. It really causes a paradox for those of us who long for people to make free, informed, selfless, educated choices. If we don’t stand up and give our lives, then maybe the order that takes hold is one with ideals we more closely agree with. To date in this country more merit has been put in keeping the “choices” free. God save the shallow thinkers should that conviction change.
@Steve,
In a perfect world we would develop a contraceptive like depro for men, then we would offer men only the $10,000 for the tax incentive. Could you imagine how the feminist movement would move to claim it wasn’t fair.
Women have for centuries and continue to this day to take greater responsibility in child raising. There are exceptions to this, of course. Generally speaking, the burden (physical and financial) falls disproportionately on women.
Agreed.
@Dwight
“@Steve,
In a perfect world we would develop a contraceptive like depro for men, then we would offer men only the $10,000 for the tax incentive. Could you imagine how the feminist movement would move to claim it wasn’t fair.”
That’s still not being “responsible.” hormonal BC doesn’t prevent STDs… People don’t seem to understand the necessity of using multiple methods. But for paying the men to take it, I guess when women buy men engagement rings, they will earn the right to complain.
Unfortunately, it’s a “safety net” for two many irresponsible women. “I don’t have a condom, but I really want to sleep with this guy. Well, the chances of getting pregnant are pretty slim and even if I do, there’s always an abortion.”
Take that option off the table and suddenly, that condom is a lot more important.
@ Steve
STD’s are nature’s way of saying, “you should have thought that through a little better. Thanks for playing.” If the chances of dying from an abortion were equal to that of getting pregnant from unprotected sex, you would see a natural responsibility developed, see less people getting abortions, or see less people having sex.
I don’t believe we should act like animals. But because we are and because our society values “free will” above all, then often it requires nature to teach the lessons to the lowest common denominator. We in this country have policies such as legal abortion, welfare, and bankruptcy that act counteract nature’s attempts to teach that responsibility. However, despite our best efforts, we have been unable to protect our society from all forms of self-centered stupidity.
@ Dwight
If anything society enables self centered stupidity, by the very rules we have. I think bankruptcy can in certain cases be a “responsible” thing in case of medical expenses. We don’t seem to hold bad business debt leading to bankruptcy the same way as we treat private debt. Bankruptcy is abou thaving a “frest start” and some business behave irresponsibly too. But I’m sure you were referring to someone buying theys they don’t need, and not being able to make their credit card payments, which of course is irresponsible.
Another question: Should insurance cover abortion? What about socialized healthcare? Should taxpayers be funding other people’s abortions? Here in the US, insurance companies only cover medically necessary things. If you wanted a nose job, your insurance will not cover any of it unless you have a “deviated septum”. An abortion is not a medically necessary procedure unless the mother’s health is at risk. In Massachusetts, which has universal healthcare, taxpayers fund abortions there. Is this okay? Should insurance cover it despite it not being medically necessary in most cases? Should breast implants be covered also? Nose jobs?
@Dwight
STDs are not nature’s way of saying you should have thought through that later. I mean I know several people who have contracted STDs from their significant other or spouse.
Some women date the wrong guys. I dated this guy who was intelligent came from a good family and I did everything with this guy but he was cheating on me with four other girls. He was not a thug or anything close to one. Thankfully, I was not naive. However, there are too many different reasons for the diseases out there.
@Steve
I don’t think abortion should be covered by insurance. People that I know have had to pay for the procedure themselves.
I realize many people in today’s society are stupid. And abortion should not be used as birth control but I don’t care what someone else does. As Dwight stated, if I could help someone in need I would but many people don’t want the help. If they would rather get an abortion, it is their life and their potential offspring. Just make sure your significant other doesn’t have it done.
@ Angela
I agree with you, but then again, only to a limited amount. The argument will be made that poor people won’t be able to afford an abortion, hence the taxpayer should cover it, or insurance should pay for it, becuase they might be irresponsible in other areas, and spend their money on something else, rather than an abortion. There will always be the argument that poor people should have free access to abortions. But then the counter argument would be that if you do that, it would be basically encouraging minorities to have abortions, given they’re free, as many of these would be by minorities, and accusations that minorities would be getting aborted out of existence, which I know some racists want to happen.
“And abortion should not be used as birth control but I don’t care what someone else does.”
I disagree. I think you do care what someone else does. People drink and drive, that is a stupid choice that other people make that could potentially impact you. If a person decides to commit suicide, they still impact other people, even though it’s their “choice”. The bullet could go through the wall, hitting someone else. Or the image of you splattered on the sidewalk could traumatize onlookers, and the people that have to clean it up. We do care all the time what other people do. Should we have laws requiring seatbelts to be worn? Bike helmets to be worn? motor cylcle helmets? Life vests in boats?? All potential “choices” for people yet we can mandate those things, even though it might not even impact you at all.
If there is one law am proud to support in Uganda it is the law that criminalises abortion! I don’t buy the argument that it is a personal choice so other “should mind their own business.” What next shall we say if one woman or man decides to strangle his own child? Is that also his choice and society should keep mum over it?!
If one doesn’t want to have a child then she/he should have protective sex. What of conception as a result of rape? Have the bay adopted at birth!! Regardless of how some people view it, abortion is murder period!
Matthew Okumu
Kampala Uganda
@Angela
@ tyler
There was a special baby unit at my local hospital in the UK that dealt with women with difficult pregancies and babies with abnormalities,the BBC even made a couple of documentaries .
The was born there or brought and eventually its water and food was withheld or the life support providing air or pumping blood was switched off.In some cases a little extra morphine was given to ease the pain and the baby died of an OD.