08
Apr
08

Should the Olympic torch-relay be cancelled?

That option will be considered at an IOC meeting on Friday says Jacques Rogge. What advice would you give those attending? This comes after the disruption in Paris and London that we discussed yesterday.


53 Responses to “Should the Olympic torch-relay be cancelled?”


  1. April 8, 2008 at 13:20

    Absolutely not, it would be a blow not only to China but to the Olympic Games as a whole; As a tradition.

    Regards,
    Brett ~ Richmond, Va.

  2. 2 André
    April 8, 2008 at 13:32

    It is indeed a sad day for sport when such questions have to be asked. The purpose of the Olmypic Games is to bring the peoples of the world together, at least for a short time. Attacking the Olympic torch is a completely destructive act that is contrary to the spirit of the Olympic Games.

    I would allow the Chinese Olympic Committee to determine whether it wants the torch relay to continue. My personal opinion is that it should. People who wish to protest China’s policies on Tibet (or anything else for that matter), should find another way to do it. The Chinese people have worked extremely hard (and sacrificed a lot), to hold the Olympics – let’s not spoil it. In my lifetime (I’m 41) , politics and terrorism have spoiled the 1968 Mexico games, the 1972 Munich games, the 1980 Moscow games and the 1984 Los Angeles games, That’s not a fair reward for the host countries, the athletes or the billions of people who feel strongly that the Olympic Movement should bring all people, cultures, religions and political systems together – even if just for a short time.

    Let the torch relay continue and here’s hoping for a spectacular, record-setting and happy Olympic Games.

  3. 3 ZK
    April 8, 2008 at 13:34

    Unfortunately I wasn’t around when the show went out yesterday (I was asleep. Very intriguing podcast this morning…) but if I was I’d have pointed out that the first torch relay was in 1936, the Nazi games. The whole thing was thought up as Nazi propaganda by Goebbels. Why are we celebrating it as a symbol of peace and hope?

    There should never be another torch run.

  4. 4 Jack
    April 8, 2008 at 13:49

    To announce even the possibility of canceling the Torch Relay will only encourage protesters to take even more extreme measures to get their message across. Whatever is decided should have been done with secrecy. Now, San Francisco’s protests will be only more intense as a result.

  5. April 8, 2008 at 14:24

    To cancel the Olympic torch-relay won’t solve anything. It won’t reduce protests and it won’t solve the situation China vs Tibet.

    On the other hand as the Norwegian government stated not canceling the torch-relay would mean more troubles, in Norway.

    It all depends on the country itself, depends on security measures and media expressions.
    —————————–
    The idea to re-introduce the torch-relay only in Greece and then only in the host-country would be best.

  6. April 8, 2008 at 15:21

    I think it shoudln’t because to cancel the relay is to admit that the protesters have won. It might even result in some more events being cancelled during the Olympic games itself because of demonstrations like these.

  7. 7 Royston Roberts
    April 8, 2008 at 16:20

    definately not, the olympic torch should always remain to undergo it normal relay as it used to be, the only point of concern is venues that are considered to be controversal, should never be given the opportunity to host such prestigios event in other to prevent controversies in the future as it is happening now to the beijing games.
    royston roberts
    freetown, sierra leone

  8. 8 Chen
    April 8, 2008 at 16:30

    Two of my comments somehow misteriously disappeared on the forum. Let me try my luck here with the freedom of speech.
    Comment 1:
    Democracy with ignorance is dictatorship in disguise. Why the “American people” was so easily to be lied to about Iraq, and so quick to accept the lies ? “Fooled me once – shame on you; fooled me twice – shame on me.” Whom to blame when the so called “American People” didn’t learn from the death of two million Vietnamese in the Vietnam War? Whom to blame when the “American people’” didn’t bother to listen and find dissenting voices and facts against the war – after all they have, as many of you repeatedly said, all the access to all the knowledge and information on earth? (Don’t tell me there was no such information available before the invasion). Whom to blame if G.W. Bush was elected by the “American people” twice?
    Let me repeat again what Thomas Jefferson said “If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be.”
    If the “people of USA” was so easy to be lied to about Iraq, and so easily accept those lies, where is the guarantee that the “people” is not being lied about Tibet? How many years and how many lives have to be lost before the “people of USA” realize the lies? 5 years? 10 years? If the “free Media” in the West failed people on Iraq, where is the assurance that it is telling the truth this time? Both Iraq and China have one thing in common: they are easy and safe targets, and great way to show “patriotism” in one occasion and “love of human rights” in another.

  9. 9 George USA
    April 8, 2008 at 16:32

    No!

    This is better than reality tv shows for entertainment.

    Besides the flame guards are getting to see the world.

  10. 10 Yang
    April 8, 2008 at 16:35

    Of course not. I was in London last Sunday and I had a very good experience and I believe most of the audience had a very good time too. There were some incidences but I don’t think it was a big deal at all. I doubt whether the media played a positive role in this event. Almost all the newspaper and TV have been focus on those horrible scenes and made those people who were not at spot think the relay is an extremely thing to do and IOC is obviously a loyal audience.

  11. 11 Ros Atkins
    April 8, 2008 at 16:40

    There’s nothing mysterious about it Chen. Your comments and sometimes too long and like lists or a speech rather than a contribution to a conversation. I sent you an email along those lines a while ago. Clcik on our Contributors Charter if you want a guide to how we moderate comments. But don’t see conspiracy where there isn’t one.

  12. 12 Chen
    April 8, 2008 at 16:51

    Ros:
    (1) I have to say there are many comments that are longer than mine, and I dont’ think you will disagree.
    (2) My comments are often replies to other peoples comments. Most importantly, the essence of this whole Tibet issue is: before to talk whether we need to protest, or to cancel the torch relay, we need to know what the protests are for. If the protests are against alleged abuses by Chinese, and for the independence of Tibet, how my comment on the historical facts on Tibet independence and the UK and US involvement in this is not “a contribution” to the discussion?

  13. 13 George USA
    April 8, 2008 at 17:08

    Chen-

    But of course.

    We have sustained wars on a regular basis. It is the nature of the business cycle.

    Of course dumbing down education in the USA is to undermine democracy. That is a given.

    We do still speak and babble, which is fun.

    And yes, you must have a bad guy to be a good guy- which we are.

    Next question.

    Oh, on elections, don’t be so sure who elected whom.

  14. 14 Anna
    April 8, 2008 at 17:14

    The point is being missed – the protests are in support of Tibet and are happening because this is the only opprtunity like this which is likely to occur for a long time to have the worlds attention on thne genocide and oppresion happening in that poor beleagured nation. There is no need to abandon any thing there is a need to highlight the grotesque spectacle of the Olympics happening in China.

  15. 15 alice
    April 8, 2008 at 17:16

    I don’t hope it being cancelled. I support Tibet independent, but I don’t think it should be anything to do with the olympic.

    Olympic is a SPORT, while Olympic spirit is just pure sport, some people who didn’t really have any ideas about Tibet situation go and spoil the whole thing. What a shame.

    I have no ideas about those people who is protesting with the relay and try to do such shameful thing on a which suppose to be political free event, I just want to know, do they REALLY know what’s happening inside! I don’t know what’s happening inside there, that’s why even I think Tibet people may be much better to live by themselves then being rule by China, I will not go and do anything to those torch relay runner. By the way, what did those people who running for the sport to do with China?

    I have to say these things happen to the relay so far is quiet disappointing to see.
    Somehow I think those so call protester outside shouting such slogan has in fact make those people living in Tibet their situation more worst. Still what I am saying is, if you haven’t live there before, you are not those people inside, just don’t link this thing with Olympic.

    As those “Western” always say, “keep politic out of sport,” I could see how they actually just shouting it as a empty slogan but not doing it.

    One chinese saying to those so call supporter to Tibet independence.
    “Clean up yourself and your country before cleaning up other countries.”

  16. April 8, 2008 at 17:34

    Whilst I am and have always been against mixing sport with politics, on this occasion I think that we have an obligation to the people fo Tibet to show our displeasure to China for their blatant disregard for the rights of the Tibettan People. We will not have an opportunity like this again to have China at the centre of the world stage and I think we should use this opportunity to lodge our protests in whatever form they are – personal, political, by the media etc. Governments around the world need to sit up and be counted. We are, are we not supposedly living in a civilised world where everyone has a right and the right to live the life they choose peaceably and to have the freedom to demonstrate against tirany and not be cowed by those who wish us grave harm and disrespect.
    thank you

  17. 17 Chen
    April 8, 2008 at 17:34

    I totally share George’s sentiment that the relay should not be cancelled because “This is better than reality tv shows for entertainment.” I dare to speculate that there are others are entertained and could not wait for more.

  18. April 8, 2008 at 18:05

    If we allow the Torch relay to be cancelled then we are no better than the bullies. We give in to them by doing this and allow them to take this issue away. If we deny people to right to show their displeasure at the relay then we are no better than China. Britain prides itself on it’s democracy and we should stand up for that democracy against all forms of censorship. If China doesn’t like what it sees then China needs to make it right! Bullying and intimidation (in whatever form from whomever) does not have a place i modern day society.
    Thank you

  19. 19 Ana Milena, Colombia
    April 8, 2008 at 18:56

    Hi!
    😦 It’s a pity what’s going on with the Olympics. In my opinion, the Torch-Relay should be cancelled IF these boycotts and scandals keep on taking place. After all – and sadly, in spite of being a wonderful tradition in the Olympics, this is becoming a whole show, and aspects such as security and prejudice are affecting the event.

    Sad but true.

    Cheers!

  20. 20 Ana Milena, Colombia
    April 8, 2008 at 19:00

    @ Anna:
    You said, “The protests are in support of Tibet and are happening because this is the only opprtunity like this which is likely to occur for a long time to have the worlds attention on the genocide and oppresion happening in that poor beleagured nation.”

    I guess this is understandable. Yet, you see how the kind of protest – not the reason – is spoiling this event. In my opinion, there are better ways to let the world now what they’re going through, not messing the Olympics and China up.

  21. 21 Xie_Ming
    April 8, 2008 at 23:47

    CHEN:

    Your postings have been flashes of rationality in a tidal wave of ill-informed emotion.

    Do not be too sensitive, and be sure to continue posting!

    You have got a few people reading up on the facts. That is a solid accomplishment and something that today’s journalism does not foster.

  22. 22 Richard
    April 9, 2008 at 01:00

    Blame the Flame

    The torch has arrived in San Francisco, and a copy of it will be carried by torch up the waterfront and back tomorrow. If the flame were arrested now and held prisoner in Guantanamo Bay until the day before the games begin in Beijing, we could enjoy the efforts of the athletes a lot more.

  23. 23 Max Tillinghast U S A
    April 9, 2008 at 02:25

    Demise of USA leadership April 9, 2008 at 1:48 am

    No. As a barometer of the health of World interaction and enlightenment, both the Torch and the Olympics are valuable things.
    ? Did you notice that suppression BY the Olympics Committee themselves is now being discussed; IE; to WALLPAPER over the problem, they want to CANCEL the World barometer of the Torch. UNbelievable.
    The openness and VISIBLE world opinion expressed through recognition and RESPECT for the Torch, would be removed. KILL the messenger !
    The next step will be to suppress the Olympics themselves.
    And … isn’t that what supporting China is doing ?

    Let’s stick together world. Remember Clinton years ?
    Erase “legacy” of Bush/Cheney criminals.
    New Era title: B.B.C. – Before Bush Cheney

  24. 24 Andrew
    April 9, 2008 at 02:45

    Some US media is showing film footage of the Berlin Olympics, how the modern Olympic torch relay was invented and masterminded by Josef Goebbels, Aryan runners forever captured on “Olympia” by Leni Reifenstahl. Flash to the present: This summer, Chinese runners carry the torch through Tibet.
    Manipulative news commentary?

  25. April 9, 2008 at 02:50

    Anna
    Tell me how you feel about Tibet after visiting the website.www.michealparentis.org/tibet.html#note.
    Courtesy of Chen, really.
    If you have already done so and chose to ignore it. I could understand.

  26. 26 George USA
    April 9, 2008 at 03:15

    And the results:

    Bret- “as a tradition”

    Hitler tradition lives on

    Andre- In my lifetime (I’m 41) , politics and terrorism have spoiled the 1968 Mexico games, the 1972 Munich games, the 1980 Moscow games and the 1984 Los Angeles games,

    So this Olympic is true to form

    ZK- nazi propaganda symbol of peace and hope

    we like the illusion, not knowing the source?

    Jack – “should have been done with secrecy”

    secret torch run

    Smackie- Norwegian government

    I never thought of Norway as a volatile country.

    Israel- “events being cancelled during the Olympic games itself”

    Prophetic?

    Royeston- “should never be given the opportunity to host”

    bribery may be the deciding factor

    Chen- “show “patriotism” in one occasion and “love of human rights” ”

    good argument against China, through not your intention

    Yang- “audience had a very good time too”

    good report, good time for all

    Ros- “But don’t see conspiracy where there isn’t one.”

    reassuring words in troubling times

    Chen- “alleged abuses by Chinese”

    still in there pitching

    George- “But of course.”

    flippant tongue in cheek- lacks take no prisoners fire

    Anna- “grotesque spectacle of the Olympics happening in China.”

    firm check in the against column

    Alice- “go and spoil the whole thing. What a shame.”

    check in the protest free column

    ..

    Penny- “everyone has a right and the right to live the life they choose peaceably and to have the freedom to demonstrate against tirany and not be cowed by those who wish us grave harm and disrespect.”

    sound words to live by

    ..

    Ana- “Hi! 😦 It’s a pity”

    🙂 it will be better by and by

    Conclusion- torch rely to continue except in volatile Norway.

  27. April 9, 2008 at 03:28

    Truth be told. Olympics needs China more than China needs Olympics. China’s achievement is already known. There is nothing to show off. The West always wants to dominate, manipulate, set conditions on their own terms.
    The human right issue, the Tibetian issue gain currency because the Western medias and governments act as a collective cheer leaders. They would not think twice about fanning oxygen to the wild fire, if it suits them.
    Let the West drown in their narcissitic ocean.
    Its too late now. The torch running should not be held in the West in the first place, since their sanctimonious indignation showed no respect to the sanctity of the OLYMPICS torch.

  28. 28 R Moubray
    April 9, 2008 at 05:46

    Yes the torch relay should be banned and they olympics should be returned to Atherns permanently.

    The olympics has changed so much for the worse where in now stands for greed and corruption and a free show for politicians. Maybe the politicians should be banned from the olympics and things will improve.

  29. April 9, 2008 at 12:40

    The torch relay should not be banned.It may be true that that China’s human rights records and the invation of Tibet are not acceptable, but the west is overplaying this as if their human rights records are excellent. How about Srilanka where Tamils are being killed and abducted every day. What do you think of America and British invasion of Iraque. They should not have invaded at all. But At least after ascertaining that there are no weapons of mass destruction they should have appologised, withdrawn themselves and help Iraque to rebuild.
    Because of this mistake can you prevent both countries from participating in the olimpic games?

  30. April 9, 2008 at 12:54

    George “And the results:”

    Great summary

    what do you think of my below comments?

    It is important to realise that the Dali Lama has not called for independence for Tibet. He recognises China’s rule over Tibet. However the region was fairly autonomous and pretty much left to its own affairs.

    Monks interupted an organised international press tour in tibet again today…..much to the annoyance of chinese officials who were trying to show that everything was calm in the region. Their message we want human rights and for the dali lama to return, not complete independence.

    I am not sure if the olympic relay should be cancelled. it really depends on wether the torch relay is being percieved as chinas torch relay or the olympic torch relay.

    Press released on the bbc site today suggests that the IOC repeatedly said to china the relay was too long, and that it should happen. An example of the IOC attempting to distance itself from its hosts?

    ps i still don’t like the chinese flame attendents… please can they be sent home. x
    As i have said on other posts they do not represent china or the olympics in a goo d light!

  31. 31 TSEWANG
    April 9, 2008 at 14:04

    I BELIEVE THAT THE RELATION WITH HUMAN RIGHTS,PEACE,FREEDOM AND
    HARMONY TO THE SPORTS IS AS DEEPAS TO THE POLITICTS, SO HOW CAN WE SEPARATE THEM.
    INSTEAD SPORTSMEN SHOULD COME FIRST TO PROTECT THE REAL MEANING AND VALUE OF SPORTS THROUGH OLYPICS. AND I BELIEVE WORLD SHOULD SPEAK OUT AGAINST CHINA AND THOSE SPONSORS OF THE OLYMPICS.
    AS BEING HUMAN BEINGS IT IS OUR RESPONSIBLE TO LOOK FOR ANOTHER HUMAN PROBLEM,AFTER ALL IN DEEP SENSE WE ALLARE DEPENDS ON EACH OTHER.

  32. 32 TSEWANG TOPGYAL
    April 9, 2008 at 14:15

    WORLD SHOULD APPRECIATE AND PROUD FOR TIBETANS WHO DIDNOT ADOPT THE TERRORIST WAY TO GAIN THERE GOAL,ITS ONLY BECAUSE GUIDENCE OF H.H.DALAI LAMA. SINCE LAST FIFTY YEARS OF INDEPENDENCE STRUGGLE,WHICH IS MAHATMAGANDHI WAY…NON VOILENCE…
    UNITED NATION, OTHER RESPECTED GOVT AND NON GOVT ORGANISATION ,WORLD LEADERS ,SHOULD STAND WITH TRUTH PEOPLE OF TIBETAN AND SERIOUS ECONOMIC SANCTION SHOULD IMPOSE ON CHINA AND WARNS THOSE SPONSORS WHO ARE INDIRECTLY HELPING AND TAKING PART IN THIS BRUTAL KILLING OF TIBETAN PEOPLE.
    WORLD LEADERS ARE REPRESENTING THERE NATIONS AND I BEILEVE THET WILL KEEP THE MORALITY AND DIGNITY OF THERE COUNTRY PEOPLE.
    AND SHOULD STAND WITH TRUTH…

  33. 33 TSEWANG TOPGYAL
    April 9, 2008 at 14:24

    AT THE END OF THE WORLD WAR FIRST LEAGUE OF NATION EWAS FORMED BUT BECAUSE OF ITS FAILURE IN GIVING SERIOUS CONTRIBUTION TO THE BODY AND ITS PURPOSE ITS AND REFORMED IT WITH UNITED NATION .
    NOW IT SEEMS UNITED NATION IS AGAIN FAILLING IN PROTECTING ITS PURPOSE ANS AIMS OF ITS RESPECTED BODY,I URGED UNITED NATION TO RETHINK WELL BEFORE ITS LOOSE ITS GREOUND ON THE WORLD AGAIN.

  34. 34 George USA
    April 9, 2008 at 14:30

    Hannah-

    “Their message we want human rights and for the dali lama to return, not complete independence. ”

    sounds too reasonable to ignore

    “percieved as chinas torch relay or the olympic torch relay”

    China torch

    “IOC attempting to distance itself from its hosts?”

    Flip a few extra million individually, no problem

    “flame attendents… please can they be sent home”

    Ok they get the washer and dryer,
    send PLA regulars- port arms at quick step (“The Wind and the Lion”- USMC for details)

  35. 35 Ana Milena, Colombia
    April 9, 2008 at 16:31

    @ George:
    ” 🙂 it will be better by and by”

    That’s the spirit!!! 🙂

    Asking for respect to the event doesn’t mean ignoring the Tibet issue, so I agree with you, George!

  36. 36 Chen
    April 9, 2008 at 20:26

    NO cancellation of torch relay!!! That is the few opportunities we have!

    For a moment I had a rendezvous: I have seen such a sudden but well organized drumming up against another country just 5 years ago. Yes, it was against Iraq for its possession of nonexistent WMD (or the freedom of Iraqis as it latter turned out). That was an easy campaign since the West can bomb, kill, torture, rape, steal Iraqis. This time the task is little bit problematic: China does have WMD, we are buying Chinese goods, and the one billion Chinese do not seem ready to throw flowers at Western liberators yet. Militarily, we can’t go in there to facilitate regime change with bombs and blackwater. Politically, those Chinese expatriates do not seem willing to corroborate and being dropped into China to do the job for us. We don’t want people to know too much and to read too much about Tibet history and the condition on the ground either, except from approved sources such as BBC and his hilliness’s PR firms. So, the only thing we can do is to yell and grab torches on the side walks. Good. Keep grabbing.

  37. 37 Chen
    April 9, 2008 at 20:43

    1. Dear TSEWANG TOPGYAL you said “WORLD SHOULD APPRECIATE AND PROUD FOR TIBETANS WHO DIDNOT ADOPT THE TERRORIST WAY TO GAIN THERE GOAL,ITS ONLY BECAUSE GUIDENCE OF H.H.DALAI LAMA.”
    Well there is some news for you. First, his holliness has bee receiving CIA money for years, and his holliness does not deny it. The Tibetans in exile, blessed by his holiness, have had several military organizations such as the “Special Frontier Force” and the “force 22” to carry out attacks from Nepal inside China for years. In fact, the Indian government used 5,000 Tibetans in war with Pakistan for to separate the East Pakistan. About 400 Tibetan fighters has been trained by CIA in Camp Hale in Colorado. Also, the Tibetan “Youth Congress” ( I guess you must be familiar with this organization? You must also know that his holiness blessed the founding of this group? ) resolved in 1977 that “an elite group of Congress militants should engage directly in terrorist activities against Chinese embassies and personnel abroad.” Where did I get those propaganda? From a book written by a American, a great admirer of his holliness, John F. Avedon, called “In Exile from the Land of Snows.” Check the book out in your local library if the road to the library is not locked by Chinese military.
    Well, tell me again about your pride.

  38. 38 Chen
    April 9, 2008 at 21:01

    To George USA who said “ But of course. We have sustained wars on a regular basis. It is the nature of the business cycle. Of course dumbing down education in the USA is to undermine democracy. That is a given. We do still speak and babble, which is fun. And yes, you must have a bad guy to be a good guy- which we are. Next question. Oh, on elections, don’t be so sure who elected whom.’

    Good answers. Now we know why the “people of America” so easily accepted the lies about Iraq, because people like you were busy “speaking and babbling“ and having “fun” when the lives of millions of Iraqis were on the line. But of course, “that is a given.” The “dumbing down education” has only one effect which is “undermining democracy” in America. Your “babbling fun” also explains why you, in Texas, don’t even remember “who elected whom” in the past two presidential elections.
    Yes, I am still pitching, “which is fun.”

  39. 39 George USA
    April 9, 2008 at 23:56

    Chen-

    🙂

    I fess up:

    I wrote that to set you off into a rant.

    Relax Chen:

    there is a time to go for blood

    but not in EVERY remark.

    google theBush elections,

    there is debate about them

  40. 40 Jack
    April 10, 2008 at 00:40

    I find that whenever I listen to WHYS and it has to do with China, there is always someone from China, who when asked their opinion, is always spouting the party line. It makes no sense to have someone LIVING IN China talking about matters like Tibet or the uproar about the Olympic torch because even if they wanted to they would be unable to speak their mind. China is just locked up a blogger for 3 and a half years for speaking his mind.

    Only Chinese people living abroad would be believable.

    Asking someone who lives in China is like asking the opinion of “Dear Leader” to a someone living in North Korea—all they can do is say the rose-iest thing possible or else they risk harm to themselves or their family.

    Also, someone raised in China is brain-washed about things such as Tibet. They’ve grown up being fed the state’s lies.

  41. 41 Roberto
    April 10, 2008 at 00:44

    NO cancellation of torch relay!!! That is the few opportunities we have!
    ——————-

    ————-We being relative to which side you are on.

    Protesters are a varied group with no political consensus save the Chinese Olympics. The torch a most excellent vehicle to highlight atrocities of the Chinese officials, a literal flame for moths around the world.

    China is taking a global public beating thanks to the intransigence of the Chinese big shots. I say keep the flame going. In SanFrancisco they ran the flame into a warehouse upon lighting and whisked it away to another route that nobody knew about and will have the closing ceremony at an undisclosed location. In short, the Olympic torch has been driven underground by consensus decisions by reigning Big Shots.

    Will the Olympics even take place? Everything in the world imploding, and Olympics suspended in the WW2 yrs. It’s a fair question where the world is in the next global war cycle.

  42. 42 George USA
    April 10, 2008 at 04:04

    Chen –

    Satire

    is the operative word.

    Look it up.

    When replying to satire it is customary to grasp the objective of the satire

    and address that.

  43. 43 George USA
    April 10, 2008 at 06:01

    Where did I get those propaganda? From a book written by a American, a great admirer of his holliness, John F. Avedon, called “In Exile from the Land of Snows.”
    …………………………

    This is what I found:

    1. The 14th Dalai Lama The Nobel Peace Prize 1989 Biography

    Avedon, John F. In Exile from the Land of Snows. New York: Knopf, 1984. (Tibet, before and after the invasion, focusing on lives of individuals, based largely on interviews, including many with the Dalai Lama.)

    2. Hungry Ghosts: Mao’s Secret Famine
    Jasper Becker, New York: The Free Press, c1996
    Avedon, John F.: “In Exile from the land of Snows”, p. 186
    The First Full Account of the Tragedy that Claimed over 30 Million Victims

    ………..

    Anything Chen says here from this point forward- you had better look it up.

    I was joking with him before, but no longer.
    Because he is making statements as fact with references that are not as he says.

  44. 44 Cartwright
    April 10, 2008 at 07:23

    The Chinese government should not have undertaken an event for foreighn consumption without ensuring they’d a cinematographer as good as Leni Riefenstahl.

  45. 45 Stephen
    April 10, 2008 at 09:29

    What in god’s name are you smoking? Your comments are about as comprehensible as what these people disrupting the Olympic Torch Relay are trying to achieve.

  46. 46 YiLong
    April 10, 2008 at 10:28

    I don’t think the torch relay should be canceled because it provides an opportunity to voice protests and criticism against Mainland China.
    I strongly hope the demonstrators will stay away from violence though – apart from the fact that I condemn violence, I have two more reasons for this point of view. First the torch bearers are the wrong target for violence and secondly it is plain stupid. At this point the whole world (ok most of it) supports Tibet and I believe the Tibet supporters could gather even more support if they conducted their protests on a violence free basis (didn’t we just commemorate Dr. Martin Luther King?) but if the violence continues and increases, this positive sentiment for Tibet could change in a heartbeat.
    But for me it is nice to see that there are finally some (international) voices against China. For too long all the “democracy promoting” countries (USA, Germany, France, UK, etc.) have let Mainland China get away with everything. As half Taiwan-Chinese and half German, who has been living in Taiwan for many years, I have been watching, how all these countries claim that the most important good were democracy and human rights and at the same time allow Mainland China (far away from being a democracy) to bully Taiwan (a fully developed though perhaps still chaotic because young democracy). Taiwan’s (or REPUBLIC OF CHINA) president has hard times to visit other countries because Mainland China is crying foul. Taiwan as an independent country (it has its own democratic government, an own army, and fulfills all the conditions of an independent country) cannot become member of the WHO or the UN, because the the western countries let Mainland China get away with insisting on their self-claimed right to control Taiwan.
    Tibet is one issue which should not be ignored, but China has many more, and even though I think many of the demonstrators, who voice their support for Tibet now, are not really familiar with all the other problems in China (Taiwan, XinJiang,..) I am happy with any criticism against the regime in Mainland China, because it gives hope that the global population will also be more aware of Taiwan’s situation and more supportive of Taiwan.

  47. April 10, 2008 at 10:34

    i forsee a situation where the coming olympics to be held in china will be marred by violent protest, and the essence and spirit of the olympics which is to unify nations, will then be defeated.
    The Tibetians have a valid reason to protest, but using the olympics as a platform to my own opinion is not the best and only option available.
    It will only lead to more deaths and repression from the chinese, who may feel that Tibets are trying to spoil all they’ve laboured for to show case to the world.
    Please Tibetians, shield your sword and Tread the path of Peace.
    Even the Dalai Lama desires peace and not violence.

  48. 48 Chen
    April 10, 2008 at 14:10

    To George USA
    You said “Anything Chen says here from this point forward- you had better look it up.” Good. You finally start reading book titles (googled I assume?) instead “babbling.” But, why ask other people to “look it up” for you, would it better to check the facts in the book “in exile from the land of snow” yourself? It is interesting that you already know that I “ is making statements as fact with references that are not as he says” even though you haven’t read the book I referred to? You have some extraordinary skills.

    You said you “was joking with him before, but no longer.” Thank you – I always had a suspicion that all you said here were jokes, and you finally confirmed it. To your credit, I did laugh a lot when reading your comments. So sad that you are not making jokes anymore. On the other hand,, I am glad you finally decided to stop babbling and to “grow up” yourself. I shall expect your future comments to be much better than your previous jokes.

    You said “Satire is the operative word. Look it up.” Well, you have already explained very well how satire “operates” by your jokes/comments.

  49. 49 Chen
    April 10, 2008 at 14:27

    To Jack
    You said “It makes no sense to have someone LIVING IN China talking about matters like Tibet or the uproar about the Olympic torch because even if they wanted to they would be unable to speak their mind.” Agree. The one billion people “LIVING IN china” should be excluded from this discussion. You made a very generous exception for “Chinese people living abroad” who are “believable.” But wait, from these “believable Chinese living abroad”, those “raised in China” and “brain-washed about things such as Tibet” should also be silenced.

    Very good. Jack you have showed us the true meaning of freedom of speech. Unfortunately, I guess BBC will not adopt your suggestions as quickly as you’ve desired. I am betting on the odds that BBC will to keep a “un-believable Chinese living abroad + brain-washed” like me here to make this discussion look more credible, at least for a while.

    Jack, you seem little impatient. But the good news is the time will come when all the “Chinese LIVING IN China” and all the Chinese “living abroad + brain-washed” will be banned from discussing issues concerning China on BBC as you suggested. Keep working on it.

  50. 50 Chen
    April 10, 2008 at 14:30

    To Roberto
    Probably, the reason you are “being relative to which side” I am on is “you cannot understand what you see?”

  51. 51 Chen
    April 10, 2008 at 21:54

    To YiLong:
    “As half Taiwan-Chinese and half German, who has been living in Taiwan for many years” I am sure that you have looked at the map of the Republic of China (or Taiwan as you called it) which includes Tibet (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:ROC_Administrative_and_Claims.jpg). I assume you must be also familiar with the Constitution of the Republic of China (Taiwan) which lists Tibet as a part of China? Chapter III of the Constitution, The National Assembly, Article 26 states “The number of delegates to be elected from Tibet shall be prescribed by law;” (See the website of the office of the president at http://www.president.gov.tw/en/)

  52. 52 YiLong
    April 11, 2008 at 02:19

    To Chen,

    yes, and I also have seen some Maps where Nanking/Nanjing is still the capital. And usually we laugh our heads off about that.
    Apart of course of some old fools who still dream of going back to the “good old times”, but there are many voices who ask for a new (or at least amended) constitution, where issues like that would be changed. There is a little problem: Taiwan is not even allowed to talk about it, because Mainland China threatens with war and our “beloved big brother” – The USA – is supporting that by telling Taiwan: “no no, you cannot do that or you are being a bad boy”.

    I am not even saying Taiwan is not a Chinese country or it should never become a part of China again. After all, also Germany was reunited again. But at this point it is another, independent country. And if it will be part of one big China, or an own country (no matter if Taiwan or Republic of China) that should be the decision of the people living here.

    There is one other point I would like to make: if a country wants to play a (important) part in the global community, it also has to accept that it will be criticized, especially if its acts have an impact on this global community. Mainland China wants the rights, so it should learn to accept the responsibilities, and not always say: “you other countries do not understand China anyways and keep your nose out off our own issues.”

  53. 53 Chen
    April 11, 2008 at 14:51

    YiLong
    Thanks for the response. I fully respect your position which I think is very reasonable. Reasonable people can disagree on important issues such as Taiwan which is charged with high emotions from both sides of the straight and further complicated by underlying struggle of different geo-political interests of many other countries. As for criticism, I think criticism should be always be welcomed if the criticism is founded on knowledge and true concerns of the warfare of the people, but not other unspoken motivations. On the other hand, the people who are being criticized should also be allowed to dispute the facts. I think we probable will agree on this. Thanks again for the response which made me want to learn more about Taiwan and the feelings of people living there.


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