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Morning / afternoon / evening, Peter here with news of World Have Your Say, today, Thursday on air @ 1800 GMT :o)
WHAT’S GOING ON WITH OUR YOUNG PEOPLE ?
A national day of mourning is being held in Finland after an 18-year-old went on a gun rampage at his school and killed seven pupils and a teacher. The gunman, reportedly identified as Pekka Eric Auvinen, shot himself in the head and later died in hospital. This kind of thing is not supposed to happen anywhere — but this is Finland; quiet, civilised, spacious, friendly, effecient Finland. The shooting happened in Tuusula, north of the capital Helsinki, and officials have set up a crisis centre to help those affected by the tragedy. The gunman gave a warning of the attack in a video posted on the internet. The home-made film called “Jokela High School massacre 11/7/2007” shows a young man pointing a gun and declaring himself a “social Darwinist” who would “eliminate all who I see unfit”. The video was made, and dated before the attack. This film is similar to the one made by Cho Seung Hui, who sent a recording of himself to the US NBC television network before killing 32 students at Virginia Tech University in April.
How does this happen ? What went wrong is this young man’s life ? Is their a flaw in the way we’re now rearing our children ? Should we have more rules in school, should we have fewer rules in school ? How can someone with apparenrtly such little experience of life be so angry – by the age of 18 ? Yes, 18. What do you think ?
This leads us onto our other main discussion today:
CAN WE LEGISLATE AGAINST OUR YOUNG PEOPLE BEING RADICALISED ?
I’m not sure what that word actually means these days — “radicalised”. Could it be that we apply it to something that we don’t understand, just because it’s the closest fit, but not necessarily the best fit ?
Anyway, we hear a great deal these days about how our young people are becoming radicalised — how does that work ? Yes, they’re perhaps unemployed. OK, they’re perhaps ignored by their parents, or they don’t have any friends. But there are a lot of young people who fall into that category at one time or another in their lives. Haven’t we all fallen into that category — at some time ? But surely there’s a massive gulf between feeling rejected, being unloved, not having a support network, and killing people — all in the name of some greater good, or in the name of a Greater God.
And yet the calls for more control, more investigation, more something, to stop this radicalisation continue. The British government is going to go further it says, the European Union wants to outlaw websites that spew out terrorist propoganda which might lead to recruitment, and just last week the Saudi King said the London government wasn’t doing enough in the war on terror. Ouch – that one was side-stepped by the British government.
But what’s the core issue here ? And how do we define the something I’ve mentioned above. It’s too easy to lapse into cliches here, but how do we stop young men and women adopting a belief that leads them to kill. What’s the silver bullet that would make us feel safer, and would guarantee a better life for these young people. They cant exactly be described as happy or content if they go down this particular path of hate, violence and death.
Let us know your views.
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BBC World Have Your Say 
You ask a deep and dark question about what is happening with our young people today. I can answer for the children in the USA and maybe the disease is spreading as the Super Bug (MRSA). The problem here is the strong need to have dual working parents, latch-key kids younger and younger, with no guidelines or discipline. If you spank your child you get hauled in for child abuse. If you leave your kids unattended because both parents have to work you get hauled in for child neglect. The parents today blame the government and the education system for not doing more for their children, but it is suppose to start at home and here parents are extremely hampered. Beyond this, as the children get older and wiser they pick up on the anger of their parents or other adults around them. Anger from unfair business practices, poverty, and radical ideas to resolve their most current problems. They turn these into video games taunting death and destruction and then ultimately into a real life scenario. If the government would allow the ability for a parent to stay home, raise their children, without a tremendous loss in lifestyle, and support those with children, then things will start to change, but the anger is universal and ignored, thus nothing will change until it begins at the top.
Beth Krane
The “Problem with our young people” is the result of a deep social progression. When we moved from a “family central, agricultural economic model” society to a “two parent working, dependent child, industrial/ service model” economy things changed. When children who had to milk cows, tend to fields, and all the other important stuff to keep the family alive, they had a naturally installed feeling of self worth. Today, children are left to find their own way to stand out, prove their worth. Add in the extra time they have on their hands because they don’t have the farming chores, and combine it with a need to “be famous” and you have the soup that has created today’s youth culture.
In the past Children were assets. The more you had, the bigger farm you could maintain. With the switch in family economic models, children became liabilities. They had to be “afforded”. This switch created all kinds of social misalignments in both how the parents treat the children, and in how the children viewed the parents. The competition of one upsmanship has spurred a stabbing to be out done by a shooting, to be out done by multiple shootings, to be out done by whatever is next.
The answer to the problem is in finding a way to reinstall that self value of yesteryear. Having parents that can take the time and lets face it, spend the money, to promote a child’s self-worth is key. At the very least, good solid parenting models are important. Here in the US, with most kids experiencing at least one of the following, (divorced, both working, abusive, single, too young, or low interaction), the task of good parenting seems insurmountable. If we keep it up we are going to end up with leaders who are shallow, spoiled, and selfish that think it is their right to take over the world. We wouldn’t want that to happen now would we?
That’s why many turn to drugs.
Some Hasheesh?
Afandem?
Hasheesh walla Marijwana, Afandem?
Both? Great!
But just you wait:
I’ll tell you a tale!
As soon as you inhale
Hasheesh
You’ll leave the daraweesh
Beta’e baladna
You will wanna
Fly high, high,
In the sky:
You will see cars
Dancing at
Tahreer Square.
You will see bars
Full of maids who don’t care
Of their boss but do care of you!
They will mourn the loss
Of the smile they miss in you!
You will hear them cry
As you fly to Istanbul
And there maids will come with their hands full
Of Jasmine and full
They’l l beg you to alight
They’ll promise you every delight
Bush and Blair will tear their hair
Out of envy of you!
But you will laugh
And say that’s not enough!
You’ll take Marijuana
And leave for Botswana
The King there will come out running
You’ll hear him say: oh, how stunning
The smell of Marijuana
In my Botswana!
He’ll take you into His palace
You’ll imagine yourself in Dallas
Having wine with the Ewings
You’ll fly all over the Reunion Tower
With no tail, no wings
And when you wake
You’ll take a shower
And go back to work.
Horrible parenting is to blame. Baby boomers became the worst parents ever. Divorce was rampant. Even if they don’t become mass murderers, they still have become self absorbed monsters. Nobody is happy with what they have. They always want something more. Commitment issues galore. Anyone here dated recently? Are you under 35? You’ve probably had some horrific experiences that hadn’t existed before. Not that an intact familiy guarantees someone is balanced and a decent person, but people, especially women, from broken families have severe commitment issues, and will throw away good relationships because they cannot make up their mind on what they want. They will make very stupid decisions, etc.. I’m sure lots of men are this way too. I wonder what the future will be like run by my generation. It’s a really scary prospect. I don’t think levels of being so self absorbed, uncaring and narcissistic has ever existed before. And the kids raised by us will only be worse. You will see more and more shootings, more other crime, more out of wedlock births, a virtual stop of marriage, a 80% divorce rate for those who did get married. Really bad times ahead for the instant gratification generation.
Steve,
I take a less cynical view of the same result. I don’t believe that the baby boomers wanted to become bad parents, I think they just didn’t know how to parent under the new emerging economic structure. The idea having children too busy to get into trouble was no longer the norm. you no longer worked side by side with your children. During WWII women ad to work in the factories to get by. When the war ended many liked their new found independence. All of the rules that they had learned from their parents were thrown out the window. It just wasn’t the same structure and mentality. it would be like trying to install a western style democracy in a middle eastern country. ehhm.
The baby boomers grew up with a sense of self reliance, alienation, and emotional defensiveness. This lead to the “I got to get mine cause nobody else is going to give it to me” mentality. This is magnified in women by having to fill a dual roll as the individual strong feminist, and the warm caring mother.
The difference in our perspective i that I don’t feel so apocalyptic about it. But the scary part is that in order to get out of this we would have to enforce policies that go against the grain of American ideas. Ideal such as licensing parent, and number of children requirements. I am aware that that opens a whole other Pandora’s box of issues though.
It’s not an isolated event.
The young lady just gave you a pretty good break down and you blew her off. You gave more thought to the guy talking about studies and he was way off the mark.
People are pissed off and nobody ever asks them anything when these studies are done. Stop blaming drugs and everything else. Get out of the lab and onto the streets.
Chris – Cleveland
Mansour (text)IT S PROVE THAT THE SO CALL WAR ON TERROR IS FURTHER IS COUNTER PRODUCTIVE. FROM MANSOUR OF MONROVIA.
I’m a counselor and this issue reflects the extremes of the bigger issue–that we aren’t taught how to create whole and dynamic lives–because we’ve created a world that has made domination/money more important than caring/life. Riane Eisler has recently written a new book called “Real Wealth of Nations…creating a caring economics”. In it she addresses these issues–that our current economic system sets us up to fight against each other as we scramble under an artificial scarcity.
http://www.realwealtheconomy.com http://www.rianeeisler.com
Our children are the latest fallout to this. I spend my time teaching adults how to build a whole and dyamic life (www.lifepuzzle.com)–and they always ask me why this isn’t taught in schools–but our schools are designed to maker worker bees…not whole human beings. It is up to us to change this–and this latest death is a wake up call to how out of balance our systems are. Let’s not demonize this child–he was abandoned by a dominator cultural story that leaves our children to figure out how to negotiate a world that makes no sense!This is a sad tragedy that we could use to launch a shift towards creating a caring economic system that honors the most important work of all–caring for humans and the planet.
By the way. No act of violence has ever been done by anyone under the influence of marijuana. A clue would be a good thing for one to get b4 one speaks.
There are many factors that lead to these senseless school shootings, but here is a short list of problems that I feel need urgent attention:
1. Absense of Parental Involvement and Interaction.
2. Unlimited access to Internet, TV and Video Games.
3. Heavy focus on aggressive competition like school sports.
4. Intolerance for the “Odd-man-out”, cliques and bullying in schools
5. Lack of gun control.
I’d be interested to see what others have to say about these 5 points.
Ken in Cleveland
See, what the hell is this lady talking about. What does all this mumbo jumbo have to do with people being angry and sad?
(text) How can d World had turn dis bad?I guess ur parents r 2 busy pursuein careers n left dia kids 2 b train by a violent world.ITE KEFAS,NIGERIA
(text)
What is wrong is that d world especialy d West has left God out of d scheme of things. Dr. Akele, Nigeria
Steve,
Horrible parenting is to blame. Baby boomers became the worst parents ever. Divorce was rampant. Even if they don’t become mass murderers, they still have become self absorbed monsters. Nobody is happy with what they have. They always want something more. Commitment issues galore. Anyone here dated recently? Are you under 35? You’ve probably had some horrific experiences that hadn’t existed before. Not that an intact familiy guarantees someone is balanced and a decent person, but people, especially women, from broken families have severe commitment issues, and will throw away good relationships because they cannot make up their mind on what they want. They will make very stupid decisions, etc.. I’m sure lots of men are this way too. I wonder what the future will be like run by my generation. It’s a really scary prospect. I don’t think levels of being so self absorbed, uncaring and narcissistic has ever existed before. And the kids raised by us will only be worse. You will se!
e more
and more shootings, more other crime, more out of wedlock births, a virtual stop of marriage, a 80% divorce rate for those who did get married. Really bad times ahead for the instant gratification generation.
(text)
If one in Finland who possibly has the best in this world can have such depresion as to comit this crime and we can have consideration for his problems what can we have for poor 18year old in Palestine. Twins Ayodele.
John
It’s proven time and time again, when you have mentally ill people and access to weapons, things like this will happen.
(text)
The society is now changing faster than we can keep abraist. We re becoming more sophisticated and unnatural,leaving on our trail the denial of God s existance. How can t crazy things occupy the minds of our youths? -Javozana, Nigeria.
Where and how did Camilla grow up?
Chris in Cleveland, USA
It’s not an isolated event.
The young lady just gave you a pretty good break down and you blew her off. You gave more thought to the guy talking about studies and he was way off the mark.
People are annoyed and nobody ever asks them anything when these studies are done. Stop blaming drugs and everything else. Get out of the lab and onto the streets.
(text) We as parents of such kids are mainly responsible for such incidents. Chetan sharma
(text Som yng peo tink dat dier hop 2becom somebody had been takin away by somebdy &somebdy som where had2 pay 4it i wil hav done dat myself if i hav gone Majid nig
Nathan, Portland
Why does Camilla mention cannabis?
Is there a connection between cannabis and violence?
Kent, Iowa (US)
I wanted to write in to agree with the doctor you had speaking that was talking about an individual’s attachment. The United States Secret Service did an in-depth study of school shooters in an attempt to profile them. One thing that the study indicated was that all the shooters studied did not appear to have any type of connection in the school system with a faculty or staff member that they trust and could confide in.
It’s a fascinating study that can be found on the Secret Service’s Website – http://www.secretservice.gov
Nikkoli (nickel eye), Portland:
In a world where in the last 6 years, war and death have dominated world media it is no surprise that the youth of the world have developed a callousness for human life. These sentiments clearly a mirror western nations views of life. These kids have come into adulthood in a “post 9-11 world where their identities have been shaped by terror and violence. A violent society will always breed more violence.
When you’ve begged, pleaded, prayed and screamed until you’re blue in the face and people still ignore you, radical methods are the last ditch to get some attention. It’s as simple as that.
Marianna,
I wonder if the fact that schools value only certain kinds of talents and attributes in children might contribute to the fact that not all students are experiencing school as a enriching environment. Math, reading, writing etc are highly regarded as valuable and children that do well in it can shine in our schools. However other skills are often not taught and even if they are in the curriculum they are of secondary value. I for one wished that music and art and theater and craft etc had been of equal value in my school, I would have been able to feel good about my skills as wel.
Also I do think that we need to strive to be much more connected with our kids in our homes, classrooms and neighborhoods, we do live in a society where we barely have time to check in with our surroundings.
(text)
With reference to the todays topic of world have your say my point is that if we want to stem the tendencies of radicalization in our youngsters besides taking care of their mental health we must deny our teens an easy access to guns and weapons .sms from MR ADNAN GILANI from islamabad Pakistan.
Why do you guys only read the text messages on the aire? This is a very serious subject and half of us are left out of the conversation. I happen to have a lot of knowledge of this subject. Whatever, business as usual will beget the same results.
Bart Critser
Today’s society has reached a social complexity far beyond the life and world for which we are biologically designed. Despite the economic and social benefits of globalization, today’s youth are presented with so many options that in many cases the amount of input (through media, internet and social groups) simply overwhelms their thought processing resulting in frustration and a desire for simplicity and control.
Today’s youth are dealing with a lack of control that did not exist before.
In earlier days (1800’s and before, a human was considered an adult by 15-18, and they were in reality; they were working the family farm, marrying and living adult lives by that age. In ancient days, 30 years was really old for a human. Today, society still grants adulthood at 18, but due to the new level of complexity in human life (primarily due to new technology, economic development and mixing cultures) and longer lifespans delaying youth from accessing leadership positions, humans do not reach adult maturity mentally until late twenties. Keep in mind that parenting practices are also out dated, still focused on the assumption that adulthood is reached around 18 to 22.
(text) The world have set a standart that may people can not attend, this people become dejected and turn to violence. There are alot of bad people out there, who will use this boys to settle their scores. SARKI IN YOLA NIGERIA.
Ann:
I’m a counselor and this issue reflects the extremes of the bigger issue–that we aren’t taught how to create whole and dynamic lives–because we’ve created a world that has made domination/money more important than caring/life. Riane Eisler has recently written a new book called “Real Wealth of Nations…creating a caring economics”. In it she addresses these issues–that our current economic system sets us up to fight against each other as we scramble under an artificial scarcity.
http://www.realwealtheconomy.com http://www.rianeeisler.com
Our children are the latest fallout to this. I spend my time teaching adults how to build a whole and dyamic life (www.lifepuzzle.com)–and they always ask me why this isn’t taught in schools–but our schools are designed to maker worker bees…not whole human beings. It is up to us to change this–and this latest death is a wake up call to how out of balance our systems are. Let’s not demonize this child–he was abandoned by a dominator cultural story that leaves our children to figure out how to negotiate a world that makes no sense!This is a sad tragedy that we could use to launch a shift towards creating a caring economic system that honors the most important work of all–caring for humans and the planet.
I believe that our contemporary society does not allow individuals to express their individuality. Our society demands conformity and expects our youth to be moulded and if not contained. Those that do not fit the formula feel alienated and may easliy become outraged.
Chris:
When you’ve begged, pleaded, prayed and screamed until you’re blue in the face and people still ignore you, radical methods are the last ditch to get some attention. It’s as simple as that.
(text)
Moazzam Begg says that Iraq and Afghanistan are the cause of radicalization. But what I don t understand is that he was collecting night-vision goggles and a bulletproof vest in Birmingham years before those countries were invaded. So I guess he was quite radical back then already. Tim, England
Steven in Germany
The truth about “errant” children´s behaviour is that they are actng out and showing the “world” exactly how they have treated themselves-without regard for life.
On your own program some time ago, the topic was raised about “should children be spanked”,and except for the woman from Sweden,(who I assume was NOT spanked as a child), came the most civilized,sympathetic response.
And why?
Because she was not under the compusion to idealize and protect abuse and cruelty the way the other listeners were.
So in short, if we REALLY want young people to stop acting out, then we have to start treating then with the love and protection that they always deserved.
Chris
Why do you guys only read the text messages on the aire? This is a very serious subject and half of us are left out of the conversation. I happen to have a lot of knowledge of this subject. Whatever, business as usual will beget the same results.
(text)
D angry 1 wen al his age group ar finacially okey wen he can okey d worrying stomach Majid nig
Steve in Akron, Ohio
The only way for us to stop tragedies like Virginia Tech, Columbine & Finland is to remove firearms from our culture, PERIOD!!!
Kurt:
You will never find ‘The Angry Ones.” The fact is “we” generally do not understand how/why “they” are able to do horrible awful acts. The fact is “They” are likely not irrational humans (lets not forget we are ALL human. To reduce the threat “we” ought to seek out the source of the conflict without using a rational in which “we” are without fault and “they” are poor, dumb, sheep in a world “they” can’t understand. This is wrong. At the end of the day attempting to truly understand AND truly deal with, that is compromise on, issues which are sparking the actions. I could speculate on issues, but a future show would be well served to introduce the audience to nuances of the Middle-East which is arguably the least understood cultural region on Earth.
Hearing the mentall illness on the radio is really sad. To hear someone saying that blowing up a group of people because they are of a rival sect is “freedom fighting” is sickening. I hope and asteroid wipes human life out. We don’t deserve to live because we are such horrible creatures. Go to a slaughterhouse if you don’t believe me. Self absorbed, hateful monsters.
Patra
I believe that our contemporary society does not allow individuals to express their individuality. Our society demands conformity and expects our youth to be moulded and if not contained. Those that do not fit the formula feel alienated and may easliy become outraged.
Legislation would never work. Legislation is designed to benefit the wealthy few and leave the others fending for themselves. That’s the whole problem.
Jason
So, what I don’t hear being addressed is what is society’s responsibility in protecting people from this sort of incident?
It’s easy to discuss how today’s culture could be growing a new breed of youth where morals and norms are bordering on the dangerous. It’s also easy to point the fingers at the parents. But let’s face it – there are going to be cases now and in the future where school shootings, suicides, and other group crimes will be planned and committed. The question then is what can be done about it? Let’s keep talking about how to prevent the type of thinking that goes into an event like this, but let’s also be real and talk about how to protect the innocent people around those with malignant intent.
Here’s an example: In this case, the youth that went on the rampage, posted a video online in advance of the incident. What is the responsibility of the online service provider that hosted that content? I am the CEO of Kuzoa, Inc. My company was built around the idea that there is a lot that can be done from a social networking company’s perspective. Our software can detect behaviors that are dangerous (shootings, hate crimes, suicides, etc.). In fact, our system would have picked up on the video submission relatively quickly and would have forwarded it to authorities that might have been able to stop the incident. Our LifeShield(tm) system may also have flagged this user as a potential risk in advance of the video, putting our staff on a higher alert.
I would call upon all social networking companies to step up their game and to start watching for these things. The technology exists, the money is there to pull it off, and it’s time for a new era of social responsibility.
Chris
Legislation would never work. Legislation is designed to benefit the wealthy few and leave the others fending for themselves. That’s the whole problem.
Steve
Hearing the mentall illness on the radio is really sad. To hear someone saying that blowing up a group of people because they are of a rival sect is “freedom fighting” is sickening. I hope and asteroid wipes human life out. We don’t deserve to live because we are such horrible creatures. Go to a slaughterhouse if you don’t believe me. Self absorbed, hateful monsters.
I agree that the loss of industriousness in children’s lives has removed the avenue through which they could and did contribute towards the family unit; an avenue which gave them a very critical sense of self-worth, sense of place and ultimately a sense of purpose and direction, all necessary ingredients to nurture mentally balanced and emotionally stable beings. The absence of these basic ‘self-identifiers’, coupled with the ceaseless visual bombardment of much-revered super heroes, enshrined in explicit graphics kicking, punching, beating, shooting and anihilating archetypal enemies, together are certain to fill this purposeless void with unnatural, unschooled, uncivilised and unacceptable responses, all of which a child or youth has not the emotional capability to process and deal with in a mature manner.
If you think about it, two generations of grand parents went through horrific world wars, witnessing first-hand shocking atrocities, if not subjected to them, and millions of others certainly read about them as current in their own neighbourhoods, yet neither of these generations saw an escalation of problems of unnatural violence in their time or their children’s time. Was it because it was always considered abhorrent, rather than enshrined as something acceptable, the way it is projected in visual media today?
Add this volatile mix to the social structure already mentioned above, (working parents, latch-key kids, etc.) and then throw in the ever-increasing pressure to remove discipline from the upbringing of children and, I believe, we have created a diabolical cocktail, a ticking time bomb, certain to produce what we are now witnessing among our young people. More than ever, a strong presence of parental influence, parental understanding, caring and discipline … particularly discipline … are required, yet every which way we turn, discipline is being taken out of the equation, the absence of which, I believe, is significantly contributing to and exascerbating the problem.
Then there is the breakdown of moral fibre in the social structure that once was accepted as the stewardship of the Churches, but which entities have lost their influence in modern society – partly due to State and secular interference. The absence of religious influence, whatever demonination, within any community dilutes the strength and depth of the ethical and moral conscience of the collective thinking – individuals excepted. The result is a reduction in social morality, decency, ethics, respect for the law, for peers, for authority … the list goes on and on.
With the latch-key generation, there is an expectation by parents that the education system should “fill the gap” and educate children in a range of “values” – values which really cannot be taught from a lesson book, but only by nurturing and instilling by example, otherwise they do not “stick”. For example, a sense of common respect and decencey will prevent a child in any generation from throwing his drink can in the gutter, with or without a public “No Litter Campaign”. Another child in spite of a “No Litter Campaign” will litter, regardless. These values cannot be taught from schoolbooks. They must be taught by example found first and foremost in the home. Where this is so, there is no need for “No litter Campaigns”. There appears to be a whole set of intrinsic values missing in our young people, most notably respect for parents, for the law, for Authority and respect for property and other’s possessions, together with a lack of morality, which again has been fueled by both explicit entertainment media and the declining influence of the Churches, once the keepers of society’s moral backbone.
I consider all of the above have created the ‘wrong mix’ to maintain a healthy society and children are its ultimate product.
Violent behavior has been connected with antidepressants SSRIs.
Eric Harris, the Columbine perpetrator, was on Luvox a SSRI antidepressant.
Pekka Eric Auvinen was also on this class of drug.
This is a report from the UK Parliament>
“Almost from the outset,there was concern about two main problems with SSRIs.First, there was suspicion (initially centred on Prozac)that these drugs could induce suicidal and violent behavior – infrequently, but independently of the suicidal thoughts that are linked to depression itself.There was also concern (centred on Seroxat)about a risk of dependence;some users found it impossible to stop taking SSRIs because of severe withdrawal symptoms.”
Click to access 42.pdf
More about violence on SSRIs antidepressants including Columbine and Pekka Eric:
http://www.ssristories.com/index.php
I cannot understand why BBC keep on covering these facts.