02
Dec
08

On air: Must Muslims now accept that Islam has a problem with terrorism?

The debate surrounding Islam and its relation to Islamist terrorism has been given fresh impetus by the Mumbai attacks. There’s no shortage of people in India and beyond who once again are pointing the finger of blame directly at Islam.

‘Where are the ‘not in our name’ protests?’ they ask. ‘Surely it’s not just coincidence that time and again terrorist attacks are conducted in the name of Islam,’ they argue. Do you buy that?

Do you believe the only way for Islamist terrorism to be stopped is for Muslims to acknowledge their religion is playing a role in these attacks, even if the majority deplore them?

Or is radical Islam a separate entity which has little to do with the religion so many of you follow? Does its ability to recruit have more to do with poverty, Western foreign policy and changes in men’s role in society, than it does with the Koran?

I’m well aware that doubt still surrounds who carried out the attacks. One attacker rang a TV station accusing India of unjustly persecuting Muslims in Kashmir. The group that claimed responsibility portrays itself as Islamic. That I know is not proof.

But the perception that these attacks were carried out by Islamists is so strong, it means the debate is happening whatever the Mumbai facts turn out to be.


264 Responses to “On air: Must Muslims now accept that Islam has a problem with terrorism?”


  1. 1 steve
    December 2, 2008 at 14:44

    While not all muslims are terrorists, while not even remotely many muslims are terrorists, MOST terrorists are muslims. There is something inherently wrong witht he way people practice the religion that leads muslims to be so extreme in their beliefs that they kill over it. If you compare palestinian christians to muslims, living under the same conditions, it’s only the muslims that strap bombs to themselves. The ONLY difference between them is their religion. Muslims have to deal with this or else the rest of the world will, and nobody wants that to happen. Clean your house. Too many people are getting killed for the stupidest of reasons.

  2. December 2, 2008 at 14:54

    I’m with Steve on this one.

  3. 3 Peter, Portland, OR, USA
    December 2, 2008 at 14:59

    Yes. Islam has a problem with links to terrorism. To kill others en-masse in the name of one’s religion, mostly uninvolved and innocent people, is very troublesome. What if all the religions of the world started thinking they should do the same thing? What happens then?

    Even if this problem is limited to the followers and teachings of just a few clerics, where is the disapproval amongst the other clerics of the world? When the majority of other Muslim clerics don’t step up and clearly and strongly condemn these acts, it’s essentially the same as sanctioning the acts as appropriate. Where is the Fatwah outlawing the taking of innocent life?

  4. 4 Freddie
    December 2, 2008 at 15:07

    Well, it really would not do to label Muslims, let alone Islam as a terror religion.

    Christians have been terrorists in the past, more so recently in the last century-Germans. they terrorised the whole of world, including here in zambia (Northern Rhodesia at the time).

    Must Muslims now accept that Islam has a problem with terrorism? NO NO!!!!

    what seems more acceptable is that they seem to be more willing to accept to die (matyrs) for what they believe in more than Christians for example. if exacting such carnage as was seen in Mumbai a few days ago is what is being portrayed as the facade of Islam, it still daz not make every one a terrorist.

    Thanx.

  5. 5 Alby
    December 2, 2008 at 15:11

    Not too long ago, it was Catholics and Protestants killing each other over religion, but I don’t remember seeing large mass movements of peaceful believers all over the world against that sectarian violence. Nor, did I hear the BBC suggesting that they should be doing so against that violence. Why are you implying that an entire 1B people should have to speak out about the actions of a few criminals just to justify themselves and their faith tradition!

    Israeli Right Wing Fundamentalists, whatever you want to call them, are bombing ‘peace-niks’ in Israel right now too, which is terror! And, they’ve gone on rampages against lots of people too including Brits over the last 80 yrs. That little nation (and the rest of the world too) is being held hostage by its small number of powerful right wing extremists there too, justified by their Bibles, their settlements, and seats in the Knesset. But, there isn’t much of a mass outcry about it from any major faith tradition involved with enabling that to go on, and the BBC hasn’t called for one either.

    The texts from all the three monotheists are being used today to promote violence, hatred, separateness, and other forms of imperialism which just spur on the economic and justice disparities and resentments that cause this terrorism in the first place. Britain and the US are big culprits in this with the dismissive attitudes they took during colonialism about ‘dark skinned people’ when they set up these territorial squabbles, justified by their brand of imperialist triumphalist religion.

    I don’t blame it on any one religion, rather on economic and territorial conditions created by the others against this one, this time. Those texts were written for that a long time ago when tribes and kings needed strong reasons to bind together, rally troops, and fight other people for as much power and natural resources as they could get their hands on. The texts are pretty clear about that, and the importance of continuing to do so.

  6. December 2, 2008 at 15:12

    All religion is the same: If you don’t think like members of the religion do, you are bad and face discrimination and/or violence. Whether the religion is Islam, Christianity, Judaism or Hinduism. And quasi-religions like Communism are the same. The problem is really that democratic governments have not taught their people to think critically and respect differing points of view, which would immunize citizens against the pernicious brainwashing of religion.

  7. 7 VictorK
    December 2, 2008 at 15:15

    ‘Must Muslims now accept that Islam has a problem with terrorism?’

    Well, no. This is a bit like asking, in 1936 or 1937, ‘Must Germans now accept that National Socialism has a problem with violence against Jews.’ Violence against Jews and other ‘untermenschen’ was an integral part of National Socialism, not a problem to be admitted to and addressed. Violence against non-Muslims, terrorist or otherwise, and against ‘insufficiently Muslim’ Muslims, is part and parcel of orthodox Islam, from the Koran, to the example of Muhammed in the hadiths, to the 1300 year history of the religion, a history of incessant violence against and conquest of non-Muslims (which, btw, is how Islam established itself in India in the first place).

    Of course, none of the Muslim commentators you’ll have on will ever admit this: it will all be a matter of misguided people who have hijacked true Islam etc. That’s why I hope, for the sake of balance, and truth, you also have contributions from the likes of critical scholars of Islam such as Robert Spencer, Hugh Fitzgerald, Ibn Warraq, Bat Ye’or, Srdja Trifkovic, and Andrew Bostom, who can argue the case that Islam is inherently violent and terrorism is a natural consequence of orthodox Islam.

  8. 8 Dan
    December 2, 2008 at 15:18

    All Muslims are not terrorists but as perception is reality, the is the belief of most of the world.
    This perception was created by Muslims themselves and they have no one to blame but themselves, Muslims are now what they made themselves by remaining silent as Islamic radicals hijacked Islam and have been on a path of destruction, torture and murder of innocents, their new pillars of Islam.
    The Shia and Sunni’s have also contributed to this perception of Islam as they murder each other and destroy their own Mosques fighting over Muhammad’s Brother-in-Law.
    Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism and other religions have differences but only Islam has descended into Satan’s abyss by murdering those that disagree with them, others merely opened new houses of worship in line with their belief’s.
    If after the horror of Mumbai Muslims cannot stand up and reform themselves then we may very well be witnessing the implosion of Islam as it descends into hell.
    There is no doubt that Pakistan must be punished for its involvement in Mumbai. How the acceptance of that punishment evolves will determine if Muslims accept that Islam is corrupted and if there is any hope for its future.
    Again remember perception IS reality and the reality is that Muslims have made themselves terrorists in the eyes of most of the civilized world.

  9. December 2, 2008 at 15:18

    Every culture in the world has their crack pots. This past month has had CNN showing the “James Town” cult group suicide. We have had the branch davidians, the Manson family, and a few others. We have a couple out there today that are being watched. Most of them are Christian based. Anyone of them have the group mental capacity to pull off Mumbia, 9/11, or any of the recent “terrorist attacks”.

    The difference? The reson is one big one. The are not looking out of their compound in Colorado and seing oil wells run by Muslim bussiness square on grounds they consider “holy”. Muslim governments are not so obviously proping up their elected officials. They don’t see technology brougt to their country by islamic dominated nations and placed in the hands of their enemies. The US based “Christian extremist” don’t see those weapons being used to repress, torture and kill their loved ones. Lastly, the don’t feel that their own government is powerless or unwilling to protect them. Many of the crackpot islamic groups do feel their government is powerless.

    This very situation allows the escalation and focusing of extremeism to propogate.

  10. December 2, 2008 at 15:26

    Muslims must, as a matter of emergency action, announce that the jihad uprisings and terrorist activities are all insulting to Allah, and in particular terrorists are all enemies of Allah.

    Fatwhas must be issued by all legitimate religous leaders against the terrorists in the name of Islam.

    Terrorism is a disgrace against all Islam and must end. Muslims must unite in an alliance for the Will of Allah.

    troop Oregon Coast

  11. 11 Jennifer
    December 2, 2008 at 15:31

    Re: Do you believe the only way for Islamist terrorism to be stopped is for Muslims to acknowledge their religion is playing a role in these attacks, even if the majority deplore them?

    Yes. I think failing to acknowledge the correlation between Islam and terrorism is doing an injustice to muslims who are not terrorists.

    I greatly value religious freedom but if it were people of my religion taking the lives of so many others in this current day I would want them set apart from me and punished.

    Maybe if that was done; the terrorists would not use religion as a shield to hide behind when they commit their crimes or for validation.

  12. December 2, 2008 at 15:37

    Hello James the Kenyan here,

    The fact remains, many world leaders are afraid of being politically incorrect by calling the Islam jihad Ideology the way it is, flawed. there is a serious problem that needs to be addressed here. Why is Islamic ideology so violent? Where are the moderates in this whole saga and why dont they hold banners and demonstrate against the jihad war. Even Palestine Christians are no that calibre of Muslim palestines

    As Steve in the blog said most terrorists are Muslims.

  13. 13 Steve
    December 2, 2008 at 15:47

    And while there is muslim condemnation of terrorists attacks, the condemnations are not remotely as loud as the muslim “rage” for things such as the mohammed cartoons. If there were 1/5th of the energy put into condemning terrorism done in the the name of islam as there was for the protests about the mohammed cartoons, then I think there would be a major difference. All I ask is one fifth of the energy used to protest the mohammed cartoons. Remember, that was a cartoon, not the murder of 200 people who had nothing to do whatever gripe the terrorists had.

  14. December 2, 2008 at 15:51

    Hello everyone,
    Well I am not sure if it is the right thing to blame Muslims for this.I mean there are millions of Muslims in this world,out of which a very small proportion actually are involved in such terrible attacks.So its not the right thing to say that the religion is the problem.

    I am a hindu but I am living in a Muslim country for the past 4 years.I have many Muslim friends and when I visit their place,they treat me with great hospitality.So,can I say they have problems?No,never.Its just a few people who think by killing people they can reach GOD(Whatever the name be).

    Thank you
    Abhinav

  15. 15 Roberto
    December 2, 2008 at 15:56

    RE “” Must Muslims now accept that Islam has a problem with terrorism? “”
    ———————————————————————————————————————————-

    ——— Most Muslims are still in denial about the conflicts in their religion.

    Not just Muslims, but the entire world in denial that Islam is undergoing what looks to be like a 50-100 yr reformation at minimum.

    No shortage of capability of modern terrorists to shed blood in both primative medievel tribal systems and westerned McDonald’s have it your way economic model. The global power brokers are as loathe as General Motors in admitting their economic planning has been a complete bust. Globalism and mass migration has created a perfect storm for terrorism.

    Win/win/win/win for them for decades to come until things finally get sorted. Always a major crisis in the human condition. It comes in waves all through history.

  16. December 2, 2008 at 16:04

    I don’t think Islam has any problem with terrorism that has to be addressed. If you look at all the conflicts in the world in which you see a lot of terror attacks, you see that these are all conflicts in which one party has resorted to using military force for a long time and has reached a stalemate.

    There is a war going on in Afghanistan,. Pakistan is sometimes also bombed. Then you can get terorists who want to strike back. They will seek out the weakest spot of their opponent and then you can get an attack like that in Mumbai.

    In fact, this is the only explanation for the attacks that makes sense. The fact that it were Muslims who attacked was simply irrelevant. It doesn’t help you to understand why the attack happened.

  17. 17 Arnaud
    December 2, 2008 at 16:07

    Dear Ros,
    For sure many will say YES! these two things are very compatible terrorism and muslims. Sure terrorism should be one of Muslims’ believes.

  18. 18 VictorK
    December 2, 2008 at 16:11

    @Dwight: yes, every culture has its ‘crackpots’, but what happens when the crackpottery represents the mainstream, the orthodox line, the establishment view? What happens when crackpot behaviour, including violence, is consecrated by a holy book, and a prophet, and 1300 years of history? That’s what’s uniquely horrifying about Islam. That’s why ‘moderate Muslims’ – if they exist – are completely powerless to act against terror: to do so would mean branding themselves as heretics and deserving victims of Islamic violence.

    Before the West had advanced technology, before anybody knew that there was oil in the Middle East, before any Westerner had set foot on Muslim soil, Islam was waging Jihad, unprovoked, against Europe, North Africa, the Levant, Afghanistan and India. You cannot explain in modern terms a phenomenon which dates back to the seventh century and which continued for a thousand years until Europe was finally able to defend itself and turn back Jihad at the Battle of Vienna in 1683.

    Islam is defined by violence in a way that no other religion is or has ever been. And it always will be.

  19. 19 selena in Canada
    December 2, 2008 at 16:17

    @Victor

    yes, every culture has its ‘crackpots’, but what happens when the crackpottery represents the mainstream, the orthodox line, the establishment view? What happens when crackpot behaviour, including violence, is consecrated by a holy book,

    Google History of Christianity and you will find the answer to that one.

  20. 20 Rashid Patch
    December 2, 2008 at 16:19

    Did anyone notice that the top Muslim organizations in India have refused to even bury the perpetrators of the Mumbai attacks?

    As for “Islam’s problem with terrorism” – and “all terrorists are Muslims” – are we perhaps forgetting the Tamil Tigers (Hindu) or the Tibetan Tchampas (Buddhist) or the ETA or the KKK or the the IRA or UDF, or for that matter John Lords Army or the Tai Ping (all claiming to be Christian), and don’t forget Kach Kahane (let alone Irgun or the Stern Gang) (Jewish)? And if we want to add atheists (no reason to be prejudiced about religion or the lack of it), how about the Khemr Rouge, or the Sendero Luminosa, or any of a dozen Maoist groups from Bihar to Nepal? And we shouldn’t forget the terorist animist “tribals” – from Mau-Mau in Kenya to AIM at Pine Ridge or Akwesasne – and still in Nagaland and Irian Jaya and Amazonia. When they get elected president someplace in the Andes, we politely don’t class them as “terrorists” anymore, they become “indegenous peoples”.

    The U.S. and has killed over million people in Iraq, orphaned 3.5 million, made 4 million homeless – and that’s not terrorism, no, no. Terrorism is the work of madmen, with irrational hatred of our freedoms. Not at all related to anything we did, no, no. State action is certainly not terrorism. Surely the people in Mumbai are suffering terribly from terrorism. The people in Grozny or Faluja are all free of the threat of terrorism They have been liberated from terrorism.

    “Islam’s problem with terrorism” – and “all terrorists are Muslims” is so old, it’s not even medieval. But “Muslim” is the current fashionable boogey-man, and Islam is the new necessary enemy.

    Prejudice and xenophobia form the same old pattern, no matter how the labels get manipulated; and the same is true of colonialism and imperiialism. The simple fact is, that if people are made desperate on a mass scale, you will have lots of problems with desparados. As long as some people try to rule the world by force, there will be violent resistance. As long as a well-to-do minority tries to dominate an impoverished minority, there will be insurrection and rebellion.

    And as Malcolm X said , “chickens always come home to roost”. So when is Christendom going to admit it has a problem with imperialism?

  21. December 2, 2008 at 16:21

    What wlll people not do in God’s name these days?

  22. 22 Steve
    December 2, 2008 at 16:24

    @ selena

    Fortunately christianity had its reformation before there were 20th and 21st century weaponry. Now a small amount of people can kill lots of people, whereas back then, you needed lots of people to kill lots of people.

  23. 23 Tony From Singapura
    December 2, 2008 at 16:29

    I think that the concept and meaning of Jihad is being creatively interpreted and acted upon for political purpose.

    Those groups that are following the so called “radical Islam” are people who feel they are being unjustly dealt with, oppressed or bullied in some way by the “west”. They have a serious political issue with their oppressors and in many cases there are in fact valid grounds for Jihad.

    The problem is that the leaders of these groups are propagating an incorrect interpretation of Jihad that promotes the killing of civilians as we have seen in India this past week.

    The point that I would like to make is that Jihad could also be reasonably interpreted as a diplomatic struggle to solve a political dispute.

    If the religion was not Islam, the people would still fight and potentially commit terrorist acts and well known examples of this would be IRA, FARC etc.

    So I would say the problem of “Islamic terrorism” is not due to Islam itself, rather it is due to a combination of factors that include:
    – unjust treatment or oppression of a group of people
    – poorly educated majority who are vulnerable to deviant or biased religious teachings
    – Jihad tool available in the predominant local religion
    – lack of separation between church and state.

  24. 24 Steve
    December 2, 2008 at 16:35

    @ Rashid

    While muslims are not the only terrorists, the examples you give are few and far between, and mostly in the past. yes, tamil tigers, the IRA, stuff like that. But there’s some form of islamist violence practically on a daily basis, somewhere in the world. When your counter argument is to site some attack perpetrated by non muslims 30 years ago, or an attack 12 years ago, doesn’t hold much water. I can just look in the news right now, and I bet I can a story for the past 24 hours:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7758432.stm

    Yup.. And remember, Germany is STILL occupied, so i fyou want to blame terrorism on “occupation”, why don’t the germans conduct bombings like this against the occupying forces? Why don’t the Japanese?

  25. December 2, 2008 at 16:43

    I agree that most terrorists are muslim, thus sterotyping them all. The world has spent a fortune attempting to reduce that type of behavior, but humans see what they want. I do think the religion of Islam should denounce the violent sectors of their religion and attempt dimplomacy to achieve their goals, what ever they may be.
    But to stop the extremest, yes- you can bomb away, but what will that solve. Nothing! It will just intensify the problem (which works both ways…). We have to listen, understand, but also cut off funding. They are getting money for these attacks somewhere, that’s what the focus should be on. Osama doesn’t own an oil field does he? So if oil is funding terror, who owns the oil pump? Money makes the world go round and also as shown in the past few months will make it stop also.

  26. 26 gary
    December 2, 2008 at 16:46

    As rape is not about sex, terrorism is not about religion. Terrorists who are members of an organized religion do not act in service to a deity; they act in intended service to their fellow citizens (which service they believe to be blessed by a deity). Socio-economic inequities and political disenfranchisement urge their service; a promise of eternal life merely gives them courage to act. By its natural dependence upon faith rather than reason, religion conveniently proves a useful recruitment tool. “Believe in the cause (and in me) as you believe in the supreme deity.” has rallied warriors for millennia. It must be said however, the leaders’ beliefs and agendas are usually much different from those of the poor, misguided dolts who charge the ramparts, or who get to wear the C-4 vests. So as it was for Caesar, also it is for Bin Ladin. Nothing changes, it seems.
    g

  27. 27 Maik
    December 2, 2008 at 16:46

    Any religion in the world is valid and as much important than any other religion. Which is chosen is up to the individual person. So why not accept and respect this fact. This must be a prerequisite to avoid any radical to preach terroristic acts in the name of their god.It is sickening that fanatics kill in the name of their god and get away with it. Any person believing in this particular god should only have one action in mind: denounce this person, the person who taints the god by killing innocent people. Time for any religion to act against such terrorists, time for religious people to act upon priests, imans or else to preach any violence. It is time for an islamic uprising against terrorists who use the name of Allah as a shield for their action. Why has that not happen, why do all the imans allow the killings ? That would be a question I have. Their god is stained by the useless, most stupid acts of terror.

  28. 28 Shaun in Halifax
    December 2, 2008 at 16:47

    How can a religion, who’s name translates as ‘peace, purity, submission and obedience’ tacitly condone mass murder?

    And how come there is no person at the top who can speak on behalf of Islam and denounce the attacks (if, truly that is the belief of the Muslim world). And if there is a fellow at the top, how come he hasn’t denounced killing in the name of Allah? I mean the Catholics have the Pope, the Protestants have…. somebody. At least if protestants/catholics step out of line they can be kicked out of the club.

  29. December 2, 2008 at 16:50

    @ Tony
    Maybe I kept my head in a bag the past 20 years or so, but I don’t remember the IRA fighting everyone in the world on the global stage. Terrorists have no regard for the innocent people they kill in their attacks of unprevoked terror. Now, before that ignites the argument about American bombing doing the same, noted, but we usually have an idea of who is in there. Were there any major terror leaders killed in those places in India, or military leaders? So then why do it? Media coverage?

  30. 30 Colleen
    December 2, 2008 at 17:00

    @ Tony from Singapura and others…

    hi there!

    I agree with many of your points but one comment i think needs revision

    “- poorly educated majority who are vulnerable to deviant or biased religious teachings”

    and there have been some similar comment previously (i.e. regarding “crackpots”)

    Most terrorists are actually highly educated individuals… There are extensive “application processes” to become a suicide bomber so that these martyrs can be considered true role models for the community. it’s a misunderstanding to assume that all terrorists are “crazies” b/c many of them actually have a deeper understanding of the global economic conditions affecting the middle east then most US college students.

    I’m not saying this justifies jihad by any means — it’s horrible. but the situation it more complicated then just following a religious teaching or being “brainwashed” — unless you consider learning about economic injustice as brainwashing!

  31. 31 Dan
    December 2, 2008 at 17:04

    Maybe it is that I just do not get the “moral equivalence” argument put forth but the Tamil & IRA et al did not go throughout the world committing acts of wanton violence, destruction and murder. Nor have they ever tried to get their hands on WMD’s
    Each had specific goals and their actions were confined to achieving those goals.
    Radical Muslims goal seems only to destroy each other and the world as a whole.

    While it is to the credit of Muslims in India that they will not associate with the dead carcasses of Muslim terrorists I believe they need to stand tall and let the world, especially the Islamic world, know that these terrorists have been disowned and they need to encourage Islamic countries to officially follow suit and commit their great fiscal resources to the rebuilding of the destroyed Indian infrastructure and shattered lives. That will change the paradigm.

  32. 32 Donnamarie Leemann
    December 2, 2008 at 17:08

    Hi, World Have Your Say Team,

    “Most Muslims are not terrorists, but most terrorists are Muslim.” I’m not sure who I’m quoting here, but I’m pretty sure I’m quoting a Muslim who understands the problem.

    The random, indiscriminate murder of innocent civilians—perpetrated by Muslims every day in Iraq, Afghanistan, and lately in Mumbai—cannot be justified by any religion or philosophy, nor condoned by any rational society.

    The slaughter only can be stopped by Muslims themselves. Instead of protesting that theirs is a faith of peace, they must acknowledge that many of their co-religionists engage in mass murder. They must work to end the carnage—THEY must work towards that end, because reform of radical Islam can only come from inside Islam itself.

    Ros, in his email, asks if poverty might be one of the root causes of such murderous, cynical acts. I would remind Ros and everyone else that nearly all of the 9/11 terrorists were well-educated and from privileged families in Saudi Arabia.

    It would be foolish to blame Islam as a whole for the acts of a few. It would be dangerous to not face the fact that followers of the Prophet are responsible for repeated outrages in his name, and to not call on others of his followers to aid us, the victims of atrocities committed in the name of the Prophet they revere.

    All the best,

    “Donnamarie in Switzerland”
    Donnamarie Leemann
    La Chaux-de-Fonds, Switzerland
    +41-32-968-1466

  33. 33 Ramesh
    December 2, 2008 at 17:11

    Let’s assume they accept. Would there be any use? Mumbai terrorists attack is neigther the first one nor would be the last one. The hue and cry in the west is mainly due to the fact that terrorists targetted only weterners in Mumbai and could resort to such attacks anywhere in the world. Pakistan is their ally and Afghanistan is under NATO control. So how come terrorists could act unless there is some problem with their policy with respect to this region?

  34. 34 Faruk
    December 2, 2008 at 17:14

    Islam, and all other religions with divine origins are in clear contradictions to human values and aspirations. All of them are incompatible with reason and our first hand experience of the world. We have seen in the Middle Ages how mankind languished for centuries under papal dominance supported by scholastic philosophy. Islam has the potential to become especially dangerous because it proclaims Koranic texts to be the words of God that resists any forms of revision. Nevertheless no religion holds any cognitive facts. We must acknowledge this inviolable truth and challenge the authority of faith.

    Faruk
    Dhaka, Bangladesh

  35. 35 DOLAPO AINA
    December 2, 2008 at 17:24

    I think it depends. It seems they do by not explicitly or better still there seems not to be a wholesome public decry to terrorism mostly from the elites.
    But this problem could be said to be a lukewarm attitude which is repeating itself. The west did the same during the early days of World War 2.

    Dolapo Aina,
    Laogs, Nigeria

  36. 36 Shaun in Halifax
    December 2, 2008 at 17:28

    Whether or not Islam condones terrorism or there is a correlation between Islam and terrorism is irrelevant to the topic.

    What counts is the court of public opinion and how people perceive Islam. I put forth that the non-Muslim world perceives the religion as oppressive, backwards and based on immature antiquated ideas that need to be revised if they are to find a place in the modern world. And following that, by not doing anything to stop it, the religion gives people who claim to be Muslim tacit permission to commit murder.

    If my history is accurate, there hasn’t been peace in the Muslim world since Mohammad’s death and the start of the (ongoing) Sunni/Shia civil war. I suspect that madrassahs are partly to blame by perpetuating their partisan rhetoric similar to the Catholics/Protestants in Ireland. If my sources are correct, these Madrassahs are strongly adverse to having their students question established doctrine (sometimes even to the extent of beating their students for questioning). If people are not allowed to question things, then they can be taught to believe whatever they are told without question. I believe the correct term for this is brain-washing.

    What is of concern to me is that (to my knowledge) there is no single voice of authority in the Muslim world. There is no Pope figure who can ex-communicate Bad Muslims for their misbehaviour. I think that the modern world has no place for ideologues or ideologies.

  37. 37 angela
    December 2, 2008 at 17:34

    I resent a bit Rashid Patch giving the example of the horrific war now being waged in Iraq as an example that “Americans are terrorists too.” Rashid totally doesn’t understand that the vast, vast majority of Americans were and are totally against the war in Iraq, and have protested against it vociferously. Rashid makes it sound like all Americans are behind it and agree with it. That attitude completely ignores the fact that we, who protest the war and occupation, have done all we can to stop it, even before it began. A big difference between those who protest the war and violent islamists is that we don’t consider strapping bombs to our bodies as an acceptable way to effect change.

    Also, Nazi Germany (see Freddie, 3:07pm) was not “Christian.” It was primarily nationalist. The majority of the soldiers fighting them were probably from a christian background, or atheists. It’s not like the other “chrisitians” in the world silently sat back and let the Nazis conquer the world. They fought them and stopped them.

    VictorK making the point that Islam is inherently violent is an idea backed up by those who have lived it from the inside (read Ayaan Hirsi Ali) or have witnessed it from up close (Brigitte Gabriel who wrote “They must be stopped”).

    But for the best reading on this topic, please everyone READ Sam Harris. He acknowledges the violence perpetrated by christians and others in the PAST, but also has a very good explanation of the current situation with Islam.

  38. 38 Ogola Benard
    December 2, 2008 at 17:39

    Maybe the method of preaching is misunderstood -Assimiliation perse!

  39. 39 Zubair
    December 2, 2008 at 17:47

    Indian have very nice habit of putting ever thing on Pakistan, never accept there failure. I’m endanger the day is not far when there children were born and they put blame on Pakistan. :)

  40. 40 Roy, Washington DC
    December 2, 2008 at 17:51

    @ Steve

    The occupation of Germany isn’t comparable to the occupation of Israel at all. Germany was occupied only in response to WW2, it had a leader at the time that wasn’t exactly well liked, nobody questioned its legitimacy as a country, and so on. Present-day Israel has lands that are considered sacred by more than one religion; that alone is going to cause conflict. Add in the fact that, for varying reasons, there are countries which flat out refuse to recognize Israel and its reasons for being there (many Arab countries refer to Israel as “Occupied Palestine”), and you’ll wind up with a situation like what we have today.

  41. 41 John in Salem
    December 2, 2008 at 18:00

    ‘Must Muslims now accept that Islam has a problem with terrorism?’

    I don’t suppose they HAVE to, but if they don’t want people believing that terror is an integral part of their religion it would probably be a good idea.

  42. 42 Steve
    December 2, 2008 at 18:07

    @ Roy

    The allies occupied Germany after a war Germany started. The US occupied Japan after a war Japan started. Israel occupies lands from a war it didn’t start. It won those lands from Egypt and Jordan and Syria, countries (not syria) that themselves never gave independence to the palestinians either.

    Doesn’t defeat my point. People blame islamic terrorism on OCCUPATION. I provided you several examples of occupied people that do not engage in terrorism. There are MANY occupied places on earth and not all of them engage in terrorism. Sometimes they do. For example, some Puerto Ricans want independence, and in the 1950s Puerto Rican groups would conduct terrorist attacks in Washington, DC right by the white house.

    Tibet is occupied by China, how much Tibetan violence is there against chinese civilians in Beijing?

    Again, what’s the difference? Could it be the religion?

    Why are there no palestinian christian suicide bombers?

  43. 43 Steve
    December 2, 2008 at 18:08

    @ angel and Rashid

    Americans aren’t the ones blowing up people in iraq. If you are going to bash the war, at least properly blame the people who are doing the killing? And yes, I’ve read some comments on WHYS where people have accused the Americans of conducting the suicide bombings and roadside bombings, because they had to blame someone else for the problems in the middle east rather than deal with the real problem, islamic terrorism.

  44. 44 Bert
    December 2, 2008 at 18:13

    Clearly, there is a problem here, and surely it’s not JUST now that the problem can be seen to exist?

    There will always be the disingenuous, politically correct few, who predictably make comparisons that aren’t valid. As the few regulars on here have done, yet again, right on cue. Yes, all terrorism is similar in how it indiscriminately targets the innocent, or at least the uninvolved, and defenseless. However, the scale is different. I did not read of the ETA, IRA, Tamil Tigers, Khmer Rouge, Brigate Rosse, committing their vile acts in multiple countries, against anyone and everyone who disagrees with their concoction of “truth,” for literally CENTURIES.

    But most importantly, no one is making angels of these others. For the most part, they are in the past. Today, the world over, you’d have to be stuck in a deep cave somewhere to miss what’s going on.

    The causes are, unfortunately, largely self-inflicted. A culture that promotes and perpetuates ignorance is a culture that will remain disadvantaged in today’s global reality. And consequently, the feeling of being oppressed and taken advantage of.

  45. December 2, 2008 at 18:23

    Hi! very interesting subject indeed.

    I’m a Muslim and I think that as Muslims, we have a serious problem ahead of us: and that is how to make our religious and cultural heritage fit into the modern world; how to use the best part of it and how to elevate Islam to the higher grounds of sanity and modernity.

    This is what I already wrote some months ago, on this very website when a similar topic was debated and I think it is still relevant:

    Islam should be first and foremost a vehicle for assimilation and tolerance. It’s a cultural matrix for identity. Religion is a private matter and it should always be.

    The levels of intolerance and violence committed in the name of Islam have reached awful heights. Moreover, this is fuelling racist and irrational attacks on Muslims.

    Islam, as any other religion, carries a potential of violence and extremism. There’s an urgent need for a profound reform of the religious institutions and a modern reading of Islam itself. We (Muslims) can not afford anymore watching our intellectuals and the elite of our societies fleeing their home countries because of a suffocating freedom’s environment and the devastating state of Human Rights, caused either by authoritarian despots or by fundamentalist crazies.

    We (Muslims) must have the courage and integrity to engage in the painful process of introspection, to identify our religion’s failures (at least in the way it is used and abused) at helping most of Muslims embrace modernity and secularism in the most smooth and healthy way possible.We should have the honesty to recognise the dangers of conflating religion and politics.

    We should allow free thinking and freedom of conscience. People should never be forced to believe in a Superior Being for the only reason that they were born Muslims. A critical reading should always be permitted of the so-called “sacred texts”, and the public should have his say in all matters of public life.

    Women are and should be considered absolute equals of men (arguably, the Moroccan “Family Code” should be held as a model.)

    All forms of corporal punishment or death penalty should be abolished. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights should be a base and a commitment in that matter.

    Whilst it is true that many Muslims have their lands occupied, that civilians in Afghanistan, Palestine and Iraq are killed on a daily basis in the name of the Western civilization (or in the name of Islam), that others are oppressed in their own countries by despots supported, financed and often armed by the West, we (Muslims) should have the intelligence to distinguish on the one hand the Western civilization and its overwhelming benefits on the peoples of the world, and on the other hand, the ill-advised foreign policies of some of the Western leaders.

  46. December 2, 2008 at 18:29

    You know … when look at what Steve said, I think of one of those silly reasoning questions that one can find in a number of tests. Some apples are oranges, some oranges are strawberries, and some strawberries strap bombs to themselves and kill you, and some oranges dress up like clowns, kill people and stuff them under their house.

    We have to associate bad/terrible actions with people. Trying to connect the dot to their religion and making that the issue, in the end, will fail. entertaining the the relationship will only strengthen the legs that the extremists stand on.
    How many Christians killed other Christians in history in terrible fashion? I don’t know how many were murder in France, but I know it was a lot.

    The lack of the west drawing this point and beating it’s drum has allowed it to come from Islam itself, and that’s where is has to start, and for now that is where it has to stay.

  47. 47 Colleen
    December 2, 2008 at 18:32

    I do not think it’s fair to say that non-violent, non-extremist muslims (aka. the majority of muslims!) should have to protest terrorists, lest they be somehow giving “silent consent.”

    I mean how many Americans are against the Iraq War, but never actually went to an anti-war rally? The main way we had to show our disapproval was to elect an administration opposed to the war (after getting is wrong the first time no less). Muslims have no way to vote against terrorism and if they did i’m sure the terrorists would be ousted!

    The root causes of terrorism need to be addressed globally if there is any hope of stopping it. And many of the root causes are as economic and political as they are religious.

  48. December 2, 2008 at 18:36

    “Must Muslims now accept that Islam has a problem with terrorism?”

    Technically, they don’t have to accept anything nor will they when fundamentalist are in power. However, they will continue to suffer the consequences of having the world look at any Muslim as a potential terrorist. At Steve pointed out,
    “While not all muslims are terrorists… MOST terrorists are muslims.”

    Ignorance breeds ignorance. While Muslim fundamentalist continue to cultivate terrorist, other religions will continue to perpetuate the same hate that subjects innocent Muslims to racist attacks that disenfranchises them and fuels the fundamentalist. How will we or can we were prevent this cycle?

    Let’s not forget the United Stated has its own “Christian” terrorist, Timothy McVeigh who was responsible for the Oklahoma City Bombing and the Waco Massacre lead by David Koresh and countless other religious nuts who pry on weak minds.

  49. 49 Colleen
    December 2, 2008 at 18:37

    @ Bert

    “The causes are, unfortunately, largely self-inflicted. A culture that promotes and perpetuates ignorance is a culture that will remain disadvantaged in today’s global reality”

    Again this comment is based on the assumption that terrorists are ignorant of world events. many terrorists are higly educated, or even educated in the West! I’m not excusing their actions here, but assumptions are not accurate.

  50. December 2, 2008 at 18:38

    Did anyone see the the BBC America TV movie Britz?

    It was perplexing for me to see the protagonist Nasima, an intelligent woman who was a Muslim activist feel so disenfranchised that she would turn herself into a suicide bomber. The concept for the movie was based on the July 7, 2005 London bombing by four educated British born and raised Muslims who were so angry and disconnected that they turned into terrorist..

  51. 51 Anthony
    December 2, 2008 at 18:41

    @ steve re: Americans not blowing up Iraqi’s

    Yes, but you’re forgetting, it got crazy when we (U.S.) created chaos, blew up people’s homes, and dismantled the Iraqi military adding 5% to the unemployment rate. It’s the U.S.’s fault for creating this atmosphere. If all that were to happen in major cities around the U.S. it would get just as crazy with people forming groups and killing eachother.

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  52. 52 Steve
    December 2, 2008 at 18:45

    @ Paul

    LISTEN to what I’m saying. Palestinian christians and palestinian muslims, same “conditions”, the only difference is their religion. They are both “occupied” by the “evil” Israelis. Palestinian christians don’t strap on bombs and blow themselves up. Palestinian muslims do. Can you tell me why there is that difference if it’s not the religion as you seem to claim?

    And you’re bringing up Medieval europe and the poor past christianity has. Yes, that’s valid, but we live in 2008, not in the 9th century. We have to be worried now about the terrorism that is killing people TODAY, not the killings that took place hundreds of years ago.

  53. December 2, 2008 at 18:47

    So…
    Terrorists don’t want to have outsiders in their country, so they not only bomb their own people, the bomb people in other countries, to make them leave?
    Terrorists believe their religion is superior so the try to rid the world of all other religions, regardless of race or relation to their own?
    Terrorists want someone to listen and acknowledge they have power. Power over what and why do they want it?
    I believe that terrorists are nothing but a bunch of thugs like the petty gangs here in America. I’m sure if people were made aware of all of the aspects of the terrorists, they would be exposed for drug dealing, money launderers, and petty thieves, not the saviors of their people and the arm of their “God”.

  54. 54 Steve
    December 2, 2008 at 18:49

    @ Colleen

    “The root causes of terrorism need to be addressed globally if there is any hope of stopping it. And many of the root causes are as economic and political as they are religious.”

    There are lots of poor downtrodden people that do not take guns into hotels and houses or worship to kill as many people as possible. Even been to Haiti? Ever seen the poverty there? It’s probably the poorest nation on earth, yet Haitians don’t go around killing people who are different than them, especially all over the world.

    When are we going to stop apologize for terrorists by looking at the “root cause”? There are lots of poor, oppressed people who do not murder people. Only muslim extremists do that. Next time a schoolgirl get beheaded in thailand, or foreigners get kidnapped in the Phillipines please let me know how the Israeli occupation of West Bank and Gaza are to blame. Stop making excuses for there terrorist scum. There is NO excuse. There is NO justification. They are MONSTERS. case closed.

  55. 55 Steve
    December 2, 2008 at 18:50

    @ Anthony

    Do you think the US didn’t disband the Wehrmacht after WW2? Do you think Germany had low unemployment after WW2? Stop making excuses for people who willingly target innocent civilians. Sorry, their insane religious ideology is WHY they kill people. Again. Germany was FAR worse off than Iraq was after the iraq war. COMPLETELY devestated, yet the germans didn’t go around blowing themselves up and blowing up other Germans because they were of some kind of different group.

  56. 56 Steve
    December 2, 2008 at 18:53

    @ Jessica

    “Let’s not forget the United Stated has its own “Christian” terrorist, Timothy McVeigh who was responsible for the Oklahoma City Bombing and the Waco Massacre lead by David Koresh and countless other religious nuts who pry on weak minds.”

    McVeigh was an antigovernment nut. He did what he did because he was against the federal government, not because of his religion. David Koresh was a nut, but he didn’t massacre people, he fired upon the FBI agents storming and basically preferred death to being taken over by the FBI. To compare Koresh to McVeigh or to Islamic terrorists is totally apples and oranges.

    And these were from YEARS ago. I can list you daily islamic terrorist attacks if you’d like. There will probably be several more within the next 24 hours, and you’ll probably have to wait several years for an ETA attack (who don’t kill over religion), or some home grown domestic terrorism in the US or europe. Again daily violence vs. once every 5-15 years. Where is the problem again?

  57. December 2, 2008 at 18:57

    Hi WHYSers!

    Certainly, there is a value to acknowledging that there are deadly elements of what is an otherwise peaceful religion, insofar as the majority of Muslims are not strapping themselves with explosives and holding entire governments at ransom. In fact, I do believe that insofar as that is a reality, it does feed the perception of the prejudices in the West regarding Islam. However, I do believe that the scapegoating of Islam, notwithstanding these elements is also a fundamental part of the problem. Much more has to be done to understand. It is not enough to point out differences and such like, there has to be a greater effort to know the people and empathise, where possible, with their dilemma.

  58. 58 Jared Ombui, Kampala
    December 2, 2008 at 18:58

    Yes, Muslims now accept that Islam has a problem with terrorism, but how do we guard ourselves from being prejudicial towards them?

  59. 59 selena in Canada
    December 2, 2008 at 19:00

    When we talk about Christian terrorism there is always the “Yes but… that was centuries ago.”

    Just for the record the last residential school in Canada was closed in 1996.

    For those who don’t know, residential schools housed aboriginal children who were forcibly removed from their families and converted to Christianity.

    When the majority of Christians own up to the atrocities committed by Christians, up to and including the twentieth century, I will be the first to demand that Muslims do the same.

    But I am not holding my breath; we can always find a good reason for our own actions.

    The truth is the average person closes his/her eyes and ears to all that is happening that they don’t like, inside and outside religion.

  60. 60 Zach (Jamaica)
    December 2, 2008 at 19:00

    Religion has always breed hypocrisy, it is time for Islam to accept that it fosters principles that justifies extreme activities.

  61. December 2, 2008 at 19:01

    The specific case of Pakistan and India, however, seems destined for more hostilities, based on CNN-IBN/ BBC reports where people in Mumbai are calling for a war with Pakistan. My concern is how can a potential war between these two nuclear armed states be nipped in the bud before the tensions escalate into something more serious and detrimental to stability in the region? A caller yesterday spoke of the need to root out fundamentalism. I am agreed. That has to be one of the approaches! The challenge is that fundamentalists also exist in the West and under Christianity. How do we fix that situation?

  62. 62 Md Faruk Hossain
    December 2, 2008 at 19:02

    Islam, and all other religions with divine origins are in clear contradictions to human values and aspirations. All of them are incompatible with reason and our first hand experience of the world.

  63. 63 Steve
    December 2, 2008 at 19:02

    @ Ben

    While that’s a very important, we’re not the only prejudiced people. If you travel to the middle east, not Israel, you’ll find there isn’t much tolerance for nonmuslims. Remember, in nations like saudi arabia, other religions are forbidden, christians live in fear in Egypt. Tolerance needs to be a two way street, and just not teh west accomodating muslims. Yes, prejudice should not happen, but we have to be realistic. Humans prejudge just as much as we eat or sleep.

  64. December 2, 2008 at 19:04

    It seems there are factions of Islam that operate as though they are a cult, like the Manson family.

  65. 65 Bert
    December 2, 2008 at 19:04

    Sorry, Colleen, I did not mean ignorance of world events. I meant ignorance in general. Many conservative religious sects promote ignorance, because that’s how they keep control over their disciples. Cultures steeped in medieval traditions and superstitions will clearly find it difficult to participate as equal partners in the 21st century.

    That will create the dissonance. It’s not just Islam that becomes ever more detached from the other societies around them. But whereas, say, the Amish live their separate lives and keep to themselves, many among fundamentalist Islam feel the need to use force against those who don’t share their beliefs.

    And like was already mentioned here, it’s not just agains the west. It’s also against one another. The habitual disingenuous on this blog repeat over and over how many hundreds of thousands Iraqis perished during this misbegotten war. But these are deaths caused by one conservative religious fanatic group against the other. Bombs in mosques. Bombs in markets. Bombs in restaurants.

  66. 66 Steve
    December 2, 2008 at 19:05

    @ Selena

    But they have slavery STILL in some muslim countries. Didn’t Canada and Australia apologize for schools like that and taking natives away from their families? When will Pakistan apologize for the systematic teaching of hatred of groups different than themselves? You’d think there are lots of jews in Pakistan given how antisemitic pakistanis are. One of my best friends in high school was Pakistani, but I wasn’t allowed to go over to his house because his parents hated Jews. Guess where they were taught that? Every Pakistani I know told me they were taught to hate jews by their families.

  67. 67 Colleen
    December 2, 2008 at 19:05

    @ Steve,

    I don’t know much about Haiti but I bet there were violent uprisings which resulted in the island’s independence… otherwise it may still be a colony!

    Also i’m curious, how many oil reserves does Haiti have? When was the latest military invasion by the US or any other “interested parties?”

  68. 68 Anthony
    December 2, 2008 at 19:06

    @ steve

    Nazi Germany also had 10% of their population killed, most of that population being the “extremists”. Also, they were nothing like Iraq, with all their tribes and groups. You can’t compare the two, that would be like comparing Compton and Orange County. Or course one place would be more civil than the other. Comparing the two is very naïve, and a stretch.

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  69. 69 Tod in Atlanta GA
    December 2, 2008 at 19:08

    As of right now, non-terrorist Muslims are truly proving to the rest of the world that they are absolute COWARDS !
    – Have they nothing to say about the madness that’s going on in the world today? – Where is the outrage?
    – Can you not see that the principles of your religion are being hijacked by brainwashed madmen?!??
    – Or… do they actually support terrorism quietly ?

    Having known and interacted with many muslims throughout my life, I KNOW that peaceful educated members of this religion do not support terrorism.

    For the sake of the future reputation of their belief-system, they must speak-out forcefully and visibly against the current crisis, and present solutions. Since terrorism has affected all of us the world over, the global community must be ready to get behind these Muslims, because clearly they can’t fight this alone. They need ‘our’ support, protection, encouragement and vast resources, which ‘we’ can all provide. Just make the first step and show us that you’re serious.

  70. December 2, 2008 at 19:08

    I would like to see more pushback from moderate Muslims against terrorist supporting rhetoric with an Islamic rational. All world religions have extremist elements that use their sacred texts as justification for their actions. It is up to the rest of us to refute those.

  71. 71 David
    December 2, 2008 at 19:08

    looks like another ranting of strategy deviced in israel. Blame any dispute involving muslim on all muslim in the world and setup this as a confrontation between “west” and islam

  72. 72 Zainab from Iraq
    December 2, 2008 at 19:10

    Some values and concepts which have emerged recently at this age are foreign to Islam..
    some of which have been fabricated by enemies of the faith. others have been inadvertently invented by some Muslims out ignorance of the real values of their religion.
    Enemies of Isalm take violence as a pretext for branding Islam as a terrorist and hostile religion.

  73. 73 Chip
    December 2, 2008 at 19:11

    Somehow all the commands in the Quran to “strike terror in the hearts” (3.151, 8.12, and so on) of unbelievers, pagans, polytheists and whatnot has been ‘mis’interpreted to apply to terrorism. But obviously the real meaning of “striking terror” is spreading peace and love at the point of the sword — the traditional peaceful symbol of Islam on flags all over the world.

  74. 74 Steve
    December 2, 2008 at 19:13

    @ Anthony

    How is it naive to compare Germany and Iraq? Both were defeated nations. Germany was much more devestated, both nations were full of people of a very radical ideology (how many millions did the nazis kill due to their ideology), so you’d think the Germans would react violently to being occupied. They didn’t. Now tell me why if it’s not due to religion.

  75. 75 Scott (M)
    December 2, 2008 at 19:13

    OF COURSE, THE RELIGION.

    The facts are: many recent acts of terrorism have been committed by Muslims. Not only are they committed by Muslims, but they are committed in the name of the religion and allegedly for the religion. Even if these acts of violence are not endorsed by the religion and are allegedly against its beliefs—we have to ask the question why Muslims? Is it the culture, or the religion, or both? The one thing they all have in common is a religion.

    If this one common thread, was anything but a religion (like some other collective secular ideology), the question would have been asked, with ferocious force, a long time ago. Islam has not been scrutinized and held accountable because religions are sacred cows. Islam or its culture are indeed part of the mix, part of the brew, those that say otherwise are ignorant and dishonest.

  76. 76 Lovemore
    December 2, 2008 at 19:13

    Yes, Muslims must now accept that their religion ninspires terrorism. Why is it always them? Islam thrives on use of force.

  77. December 2, 2008 at 19:14

    FARC are not Muslim, ETA are not Muslim, IRA were not and are not Muslim – you can go on and on.

    But in the world today something has gone very wrong indeed. Now with the widespread broadcasting of the “Islamic” problem most, if not all, Muslims are seen as a member of a deranged religion. Now is the time for the silent majority in the Islamic faith to speak up and denounce these horrific acts. That will pave a way forward – but it certainly won’t be the end of all this.

    On a side note: The Daily Show, a comedy program, last night had a go at the Mumbai attacks. I cannot write all that was said on here because the comment would be deleted. But when a program like that has a go at this, you know that people in general have had enough of being scared of a certain group and, if the right circumstances arise, will be motivated to do something very drastic indeed. The fear is beginning to wane in the US – they and all of us have had enough – that means something will be done about it. If I were those who are planning more of these attacks – I would think very carefully because things are going to change – and the moderate Muslims who know their religion has been hijacked will have to speak out – loudly!

  78. December 2, 2008 at 19:17

    While I agree completely with MD Farouk Hossain, the real world operates with many more complicating ideologies and cultural differences. I think that if the Muslam religion had a central spokesperson, as the Christian religion has the Pope to speak out against the murder and destruction perpetated by Muslims in the name of their religion it would help. In the absence of that, each Mosque would be well-served to steo up their vocalizations against terrorist behavior.

  79. 79 Ganesh
    December 2, 2008 at 19:17

    Anybody familiar with Islamic history will realise that Islam doesn’t has a problem with terrorism, but it’s actually a form of terrorism itself.

    Go to Faithfreedom.org and read Ali Sina’s “Letter to Mankind” with an open mind.

    No point talking about what people might have done many years ago. Deal effectively with the clear & present danger — Islamic terrorism. By the way, to clear allegations of religious bias, please post topics with these titles:

    Must Buddhists now accept that Buddhism has a problem with terrorism?

    Must Hindus now accept that Hinduism has a problem with terrorism?

    Must Christians now accept that Christianity has a problem with terrorism?

    Must Jews now accept that Judaism has a problem with terrorism?

  80. December 2, 2008 at 19:18

    @ steve

    TODAY, we cannot afford to label a religion for the worse part of a minority group inside of it. TODAY there are white American extremists that want the “n!@ger” president dead, does that mean ALL white people are evil … no that’s the point Steve. We know better. People, not religions, race, or Gods kill other people. If you want say yes, it’s Islam, then you are only perpetuating the situation. I have known Muslims, plenty of which that have no idea how to build bombs or strap them to their chests. I take offense for them when the generalization is tossed out there that it is Islam which is the problem, not the sick and corrupted men involved with it.

    I mean while we are at it, lets just say if you’re not Christian you’re going to burn in hell forever and ….

  81. 81 Jens
    December 2, 2008 at 19:19

    @ Colleen,

    if oil is the issue, then please explain the madrid, london, bali, malaysia, thailand etc violence to me. it’s not only arab muslims that are violent, but pakistani, asian, technien etc muslims……..makes me think that islam may have something to do with it, but i could be wrong.

  82. 82 kelvin kamfwa
    December 2, 2008 at 19:20

    Yes islam is intertwined with terrorism. How come there are few christians who are terrorists. Madrasas have become breeding grounds of terrorits especially in Pakistan.

  83. 83 Tod in Atlanta GA
    December 2, 2008 at 19:22

    Zainab…
    I think you hit on a root issue, and maybe a huge part of the fight against extremism is to make the differences you pointed out obvious and visible to the general public. This will specify more clearly exactly where efforts against Islamic extremism and terrorism needs to be focused.

  84. 84 Steve
    December 2, 2008 at 19:22

    For those saying that Muslims shouldn’t have to speak out because only a tiny minority are terrorists, then why were the mohammed cartoon protests so large and so violent? If they’ll condemn percieved slights of their religion, why not condemn terrorism done in the name of the religion? The selective outrage I think is what makes westerners worry, and worry a lot.

  85. 85 Zach (Jamaica)
    December 2, 2008 at 19:24

    I am not a religious person but I am unapologetic in saying “I fear all Muslims”. I know I am being discriminantory but who can blame me.

  86. 86 James Lange
    December 2, 2008 at 19:25

    “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing” (often attributed to Edmund Burke)

    Hanif Nalkhande of the Jama Masjid Trust refused to bury the Mumbai attackers because “People who committed this heinous crime cannot be called Muslim. Islam does not permit this sort of barbaric crime.”

    Mr Nalkhande is clearly a good man. There are millions of good Muslim men and women. It is time for them to speak up and stop doing nothing.
    It is time all Muslims insist that their Imams and Ayatollahs issue fatawa against any murder in the name of Islam.

    “In the end, we will remember not the words or our enemies, but the silence of our friends.”
    Martin Luther King Jr

  87. 87 Bob Macdonald
    December 2, 2008 at 19:25

    Once again we have witnessed an Islamic terrorist attack incited and justified through appeals to Islam by its perpetrators. On one level it is understandable why so many in the West are unwilling or unable to connect the militant ideology of political Islam to the thousands of Islamic terror attacks that have been committed worldwide since 9/11. We extol the virtues of tolerance and pluralism and believe others in the world do so as well, so it is easy to dismiss such attacks as the work of a few “extremists,” rather than the product of adherence to an ideology.

    The fatal flaw in this thinking is this: How can we successfully win a war on Islamic terrorism if we don’t correctly define the threat doctrine that motivates its adherents?

    It is argued that most of the world’s Muslims are not terrorists. While true, this fact is irrelevant. Most of the world’s Muslims have never read the Qur’an or the Hadith in a language they can understand. They have not read the hundreds of passages that call for jihad against infidels, nor do they renounce such passages. They do not organize en masse to denounce the terrorist acts perpetrated by other Muslims in the name of Islam, nor do they denounce the frequent exhortations to world subjugation found in the holy books of Islam.

    Yes, there are Muslims who have denounced the Mumbai attacks. But examine their denunciations closely and you will be hard-pressed to find renunciations of the supremacist doctrine of political Islam — the foundation for jihad — which emanates from its holy books. This is the justification commonly cited by terrorists for their actions. We in the West must come to grips with the uncomfortable fact that terrorism is a symptom of this militant, supremacist ideology. Terrorism is a means to an end, not an end in itself. And it is but one of many means used by those who are devoted to the supremacist ideology of political Islam.

  88. 88 Anthony
    December 2, 2008 at 19:26

    @ steve

    It’s the mentality of the people. Like I said, you’re comparing San Bernardino and Orange County. Of course Orange County would be more civil than San Bernardino in a situation like that. Do you think Somalia and Australia would react the same way in that kind of scenario? How about North Korea and Norway. I guess people all around the world react the same way to situations in your eyes.

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  89. 89 Neil
    December 2, 2008 at 19:27

    Why is Islam in the middle of the majority of conflicts across the world?

    I think Muslims need to take a much closer look at Islam and their place in the world. Societies (the world) evolves and religion must evolve with it. The world today is not same as the world 1,300 years ago when the Islam was born. If Muslims continue to follow 1,300 years old rules, they will find more and more distant from today’s world.

  90. 90 Sandra
    December 2, 2008 at 19:27

    I hear lots of excuses but no one addressing the question directly. Why exactly is the larger Islamic population not willing to confront the smaller more radical element of the religion? The answer is simple, fear from those that would just as easily strike against their own. Yes, religion has had a long history of violence but it is the Islamic religion that seems to have the monopoly on conversion through violence. When was the last time Christians and Jews strapped guns and bombs on them in the name of conversion?

  91. December 2, 2008 at 19:28

    Are the Bombay attacks less otrageous than a cartoon?
    Where are these millions who protested for the mohamed cartoons now?
    Who is still believing that islam is ot lookng the other way while these things happens.?

  92. 92 MeanMachine
    December 2, 2008 at 19:29

    Come On !! Why are the guests making a simple problem so complex. People are committing terrible and inhuman acts in the name of Islam. These acts are defining Islam for millions of people. Until and unless the larger Islamic community stand up publicly against these acts such acts remain the definition of Islam. People such as myself then begin to suspect that that larger Islamic community are silent supporters of such acts. If this is not an outcome the larger Islamic community does not wish then its their responsibility to present a different fact of Islam. Simply bellyaching about this negative view being held by millions of people will not change our negative view but rather reinforces it.

  93. 93 Charles
    December 2, 2008 at 19:30

    Muslims believe that the Koran is literally the word of God. There are numerous divine commands in the Koran to eliminate infidels, subjugate non-believers, etc. Such supposedly divine injunctions cannot be denied, declared illegitimate, outdated, or no longer to be obeyed. There can be no prophecy after Mohammed and the will of God as expressed in the Koran is immutable. Whoever would make such declarations would be a heretic. Hence, the absence of Muslim leaders denying the legitimacy of terrorism/jihad. Islam has no problem with jihadic terrorism as it is in the nature of the beast, part of its DNA if you will. It is the rest of the world that has a problem with Islam even if many do not realize this to be true. Non-Muslim political leaders who utter the mantra that Islam is a “Religion of Peace” are either ignorant, dishonest, delusional or some combination of those qualities.

  94. December 2, 2008 at 19:30

    @ Steve,

    “One of my best friends in high school was Pakistani, but I wasn’t allowed to go over to his house because his parents hated Jews. Guess where they were taught that? Every Pakistani I know told me they were taught to hate jews by their families”

    And Jewish people are taught to hate? Or Christians, for that matter? Plenty of conservative Christian churches I attended as a child preached something to the effect of “all other religious were wrong and unless they all came to their senses they’d go to hell.” While they were not preaching kill anyone not Christian, you can see how some of these kids grow up to hate.

  95. December 2, 2008 at 19:32

    It is amazing to me that Muslims will spontaneously march in the streets around the world if a cartoon in Denmark depicts Mohammad, and yet we hear NOTHING from that same Muslim community when suicide murderers and bombers kill innocent people EVERYDAY.

    The best news I have heard from the Muslim community is that in India the bodies of the MUSLIM murderers were not allowed to be buried in the Muslim cemetery.

  96. 96 Dan
    December 2, 2008 at 19:32

    @Ganesh

    Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism and Duddhism only has a problem with Islamic terrorism.

  97. 97 Jonathan
    December 2, 2008 at 19:32

    Although many will roll their eyes and mutter “we dont do equivalency” we have to look at this as not an aspect of Islam, but as an aspect of human nature, and we have to acknowledge that we are all aware that all other religions, nations, races, whatever have aspects of them that are bad and although this sounds desperately feeble nothing will change if we continue with the destructive viewpoint of, “its them, not us”. This is very hard for many people to do, as we all want to think we are not the “bad” guy. However, many non-radical muslims will, and with justification, be unwilling to find fault with their religion unless other people show they are aware that we are all, to some extent or another, at fault (didnt Jesus say something about a plank in our own eye?). I realize that there are many who see this approach as pacifist “why cant we all just get along” limp-wristed dangerous nonesense – a usual response is “It wouldnt have worked against the Nazis would it?”. No, it wouldnt, but a tiny percentage of extremists, who claim to belong to a religion, is different than an entire nation in the grip of national madness. It is also idealistic nonsense to say that equivalency never works…this might be a situation where it might help.

  98. 98 Abdullah
    December 2, 2008 at 19:34

    It is not Islam that has the problem but those that use it expediently. This expediency is not limited to those that are proclaimed as ‘extremists’ but two others;
    Firslty those governments in the west who convienently use such terminology to delegitimise Islam, seek to change Islamic principles, seek to distance Muslims from embracing Islam as a comprehensive doctrine whilst detracting from the fundamental failings of the capitalist system, which we are allreeling from.
    Secondly those ‘experts’ who are indoctrinated or infatuated with western political philosophy and themselves, with arrogance, believe they are the criteria to state what is ‘True Islam’, what is ‘Islamic extremism’ etc…

  99. 99 Anthony
    December 2, 2008 at 19:35

    The point of most religions are to get to heaven. If you can blow yourself up and have a confirmed ride to heaven, then why wouldn’t you, right?

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  100. 100 Kathryn
    December 2, 2008 at 19:35

    For the interviewer to suggest that since most Muslims say they identify with their religion more than their nation means that they are accountable for their co-religionists is ridiculous. First of all a number of countries have a minority Muslim population meaning that their nationhood does not correlate with or enhance their religious beliefs in the way that your sense of being American might make you connect with Christianity in a greater way. Secondly, to the poster above who notes, apologetically, that most terrorists are Muslim. Let’s try to think about this rationally. First of all, “terrorist” is a particular label here. It all depends on whether one agrees with the purpose, if any that is being mobilized. For instance, Sinn Fein will be controversial to a British audience, but for Irish Americans is generally seen as a liberatory organization that took on violence as a necessary form of resistance. So some may include Sinn Fein as “terrorists” and some may not. Saying that all terrorists is Muslim is only to conclude that the term “terrorism” has been applied to forms of non-state violence that are enacted by Muslims. Why has this term been so applied? Because it is easier to call for violence, even extermination if you listen to some pundits, against a seemingly frightening, unknown and scattered group of “Muslims”–Islam being a religion that has been distinctly non-Western in its origins and thus is seen as a scary unknown.

    Why don’t Christians have to take responsibility for the Iraq War? Why aren’t Christians held responsible for the conquer and colonization of 2/3 of the remaining world, a process which could be argued lead to this anger of the dispossessed being unleashed? The answer is simple: Christian Westerners have power militarily and monetarily and also rhetorically.

  101. 101 Steve
    December 2, 2008 at 19:37

    @ Jessica

    I can only speak for myself, and the answer is no in my case. What I do know, is that Christians/Jews don’t seem to be killing people they have been taught to hate on a daily basis.

  102. 102 Scott (M)
    December 2, 2008 at 19:39

    CRITICIZING A RELIGION IS NOT BIGOTRY

    The problem we have had: many believe you can’t judge and criticize one single religion. They think this is bigotry or something similar. This view is inaccurate and foolish. It is possible for one religion to have more problems then others. All religions are not equal!

    There is nothing wrong with saying a religion has faults. Religions cannot be immune to scrutiny. Nothing else is. They need to be held accountable. They need to be criticized. This isn’t bigotry—it is critical thinking.

    If a religion can be responsible for good deeds—then it can also play a part in the bad deeds.

  103. 103 Shane in Oregon, USA
    December 2, 2008 at 19:40

    I thought many were trying to denounce the terrorist acts of radical Islam.

    The song and organization YeHumNaheen shows this.

    http://www.yehhumnaheen.org/

  104. 104 fred gold
    December 2, 2008 at 19:40

    it’s time to accept that the problem is religion, an outdated control system, and not islam per se

    all the stone-age mythologies have had their age of terrorism

    now it’s islam’s turn

    religion is the problem

    fred
    den haag

  105. 105 Michel from Portland
    December 2, 2008 at 19:41

    The argument that Islam, or any religion, is non-violent because the vast majority of its followers aren’t violent ignores human nature. Most PEOPLE are non-violent by nature, and require provocation to become otherwise.

    Historically, that provocation often comes from religion, and Islam is no exception. The difference is one of degree: to read the Quran is to be amazed at the depth of anger and vengeance that it attributes to the creator of the universe. Believing in this text is to be called to share in these feelings.

    There is no scripture I know of that is entirely free of these defects. But Islam may also be unusual among world religions in the degree to which its adherents subsume their world view within the boundaries set by their holy book. This encourages the violent and tends to silence the peaceful.

  106. 106 Ogola Benard
    December 2, 2008 at 19:42

    Am pretty sure that all terrorism acts come from muslim countries headed by muslim leaders. If you can figure out the history, one would not have a doubt that there is something wrong with in the religion – the act is carried out by very young people who would otherwise need to have a family and settle in life but end up here. why? I think they should stop producing male children because they would not live for long!! All those capture as per record posses muslim names!

  107. December 2, 2008 at 19:42

    @ Steve

    I agree with your comments at 2:44 pm. However, you’re wrong to think it’s that terrorism only come from Muslims. Terrorism has many forms and nothing is history is immune from repeating itself.

    Muslims do need to accept that fundamentalists are grossly abusing Islam and do something about it.

  108. 108 Macfield
    December 2, 2008 at 19:43

    How foolish can people get, to think that God (Ala) who is all powerful will need us mortals to carry our insane killings on his behalf.

    It seems to me that the young men/women of the Muslim faith are denied the chance to be open minded enough to ask them self “why should Ala” need me to carry out killings on his behalf. When Ala is all powerful and all knowing

  109. 109 Steve
    December 2, 2008 at 19:44

    Your guest doesn’t seem to understand that that when islamists kill, they kill in the name of their religion. If he wants the religion of regular murderers to be mentioned, it still is apples and oranges because if someone gets murdered while getting robbed, they were killed over some reason other than religion.

  110. 110 Zainab from Iraq
    December 2, 2008 at 19:44

    Jihad is defined as making every possible effort to push the enemy, not for aggression. TO defend not to attack..this is jihad in Quran
    It’s true there are many Qura’nic chapters taking about jihad.. BUT it clearly seems that these chapters are wrong interperated by those terrorists (who are pushed by the enemies of faith)
    Terrorism has deeds prohibited and forbidden in Islam.. so it is not of Islam in anything.. Those terrorists (and those behind them) are the real enemies of Islam.. they disguised themselves as Muslims for it was the best way to do what they want ..
    Look each chapter of Quran has its reasons.. all you have to do : is to understand each word CORRECTLY.

  111. 111 Phillip Slepian
    December 2, 2008 at 19:45

    “Terrorism” is only a manifestation of one form of Jihad. Since the proponents of Islamic Jihad have no country (with the possible exception of Iran) with a sovereign government which supports Jihad, Jihadi fighters have had to turn to terrorist tactics in their pursuit of jihad. Make no mistake, while only a small percentage of Muslims participate in violent Jihad, most Muslims of faith agree with the GOAL of Jihad – the unification of the world under an Islamic Caliphate. Hence, many Muslims contribute to the goal of Jihad in other ways: Financially, by giving Zaka to Jihadist groups; Demographically, by moving to non-Muslim lands and raising large families of faithful Muslims, Educationally; by exhorting other faithful Muslims to pursue Jihad in all of its forms.

    This is what makes Islam unique among all the world’s religions. No other faith defines “peace” as the submission of the entire world to its own particular faith, with Shari’a law enforced for all, and other religions subjugated as dhimmi.

    Christianity looks forward to a world which will universally accept it voluntarily, not by force. While some Christians have resorted to force in the past, it is not a tactic endorsed within the Canon of Christianity, and certainly not a tactic currently employed.

    Likewise, Judaism looks forward to Messianic era, in which Jews will live in their homeland without contest, their Temple will be rebuilt, and the Torah will be a light to the world. But Judaism never seeks to be universally observed. In the Jewish view, there will always be righteous gentiles, even after the Messiah.

    Hindus by nature are peaceful. I have no doubt that, absent Islamic terror aimed at the Islamicization of India, the Hindus would live peaceful, productive lives.

    Islam is NOT like other religions. It is unique in that its holy books clearly advocate the achievement of its goals through any means necessary, including violence and force. It is the only religion in which other religions must be subjugated (dhimmi) and apostates are executed as a matter of Shari’a law.

    I am not talking about popular manifestations of any religion, but of the sacred texts themselves. In this, the Qur’an and Hadith are unique. Islam is simply incompatible with a world in which non-Muslims have hegemony. Unlike other religions, all desent and atempts at reform in Islam are firmly quashed. As long as Islam is taught in its normative form, there will be Jihad, in all of its forms, until Islam is universal or soundly defeated.

  112. 112 selena in Canada
    December 2, 2008 at 19:46

    Muslims believe that the Koran is literally the word of God. There are numerous divine commands in the Koran to eliminate infidels, subjugate non-believers, etc.

    Yes, exactly the same as the Bible, as some people interpret it. I know people who believe that God wrote the bible in his own hand and in English, as in the KJV.

    Don’t make chaulk of one and cheese of the other. All religions are the same, designed to subjugate.

    Acknowledging this fact would be a first step to change.

  113. 113 Mike in Portland
    December 2, 2008 at 19:47

    I decided to watch a beheading video a year or so back, just so I knew what was going on. What I saw horrified me. These killers were chanting praise to Allah while slowly and violently severing the victim’s head off. The man was screaming like a pig does. When they got past his vocal chords, the screaming obviously stopped but the the man must have still been trying because blood was shooting out the top of his neck. And all the while these men were chanting in worship to Allah……..

  114. 114 Kenny In Florida
    December 2, 2008 at 19:47

    Organized religion is blasphemy in it of itself. When will people open their eyes to this? May the powers that be treat all those lost in the Mumbai attacks with love and care. Our thoughts are with those and their families.

  115. December 2, 2008 at 19:47

    Ros, your personal biases are again overly well represented in today’s program.

    Although the “bad guys” of today happen to be Islamic extremists, the problem of violent extremism is far from being a strictly Muslim problem.

    There are, have been, and will be again, violent Christian extremists, and such Christians have committed atrocities throughout history.

    Get off your high horse.

    The problem of religious extremism will continue to exist as long as there are religions. It is not limited to any one religion.

    Please stop finger pointing at one group, and please stop blaming billions of Muslims for the actions of ten people. This is such a terrible program. Why do I even listen to it?

  116. 116 Steve
    December 2, 2008 at 19:47

    @ Kathryn

    I assure you, Christianity and Judaism are non western in origin and were formed in the same area where Islam was formed.

  117. 117 kate
    December 2, 2008 at 19:49

    The problem in my view is not with Islam itself it is with the concept of theocracy where religion is used for political ends. It is Islam now, but it was Catholicism during the inquisition and the crusades Protestantism in the 1400s, Calvanism in the 1500s, and monotheism vs multitheism in ancient Egypt and Rome. Anti-abortionists in America invoked their faith in bombing abortion clinics and terrorizing medical personnel and that was not Islam.

    If you look down through history, religious and/or ethnic intolerance can comes from most any faith. It is a problem and leads to atrocities when it is used for power and control.

    Faith is a dangerous tool because it involves belief without evidence, and even belief in the face of contrary evidence. Once you can get people to do that, then all you need to manipulate is WHAT they believe as long as you tie it to the framework that has already been built.

  118. 118 Steve
    December 2, 2008 at 19:50

    Selena

    While yes, most holybooks are filled with violent words and intolerant things, how often do christians and Jews kill others due to what is written in their holybooks? I can point out 200 or so people who were just murdered in Mumbai due to someone’s belief in their holybook. Can you provide me the most recent example of christians or jews doing that? And tomorrow I will provide a list of the latest attacks carried out in the name of Islam, and the day after, and the day after that. Who do you think will be able to list more? Again, where is the problem? The real problem that MUSt be dealt with?

  119. 119 Shailin
    December 2, 2008 at 19:51

    As a young Muslim woman living in Texas, I cant help but question the world wide attention on Islam being in part because of the target of these Islamic terrorist groups. Now that these Islamic groups are targeting the Western world, of course the world will take notice. The Western world controls the media, the money, the power. It is NOT something in the religion. Islam MEANS peace. How ridiculous that it is an ideology rooted in Islam. I am Muslim, and I feel upset that these groups are giving Islam such a terrible name, but at the same time. I live here, in the US. 911 was a terrible tragedy, but I am American first, Muslim second. I have many layers to my identity. Heck, I am just as upset when it comes to issues of sexism or racism as I am about these “Muslim” attacks.

  120. 120 Dan
    December 2, 2008 at 19:51

    Anthony

    The point of most religions are to get to heaven. If you can blow yourself up and have a confirmed ride to heaven, then why wouldn’t you, right?

    -Anthony, LA, CA
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    The point of religion was to control society and formulate an order as populations expanded and interacted with one another.
    It is the dictate of what God expects of us but not necessarily the road map of how to get into heaven.

  121. December 2, 2008 at 19:51

    The English will never fix an American problem. The Americans will never fix a French problem … well, lets just exclude world wars from this scenario, but even in that case, nobody was able to accomplish anything single handily. Outsiders need to be careful of the conversation that is occurring within Islam itself, or the potential beneficial outcomes for everyone will more than likely be lost to fears of outside influence. We can only walk into this “home” if invited, kicking down the door with old hard-line beliefs will only result in the way it always has, more violence.

  122. 122 Scott (M)
    December 2, 2008 at 19:51

    FOR ALL THOSE WHO SAY IT ISN’T ISLAM

    Is it ever possible for a collective ideology to be accountable? Can it ever play a role? Or is it always the people? The individual?

    If a religion can never be responsible for bad, can it be responsible for good? Can it be responsible for anything at all?

    Was it the Nazism or only individual people?

  123. December 2, 2008 at 19:53

    I think we talk to much about a problem of sic people, there is a need for medical atention – nothing else.

  124. 124 Chip
    December 2, 2008 at 19:56

    Type “terror” into any Quran search engine. Then see for yourself whether the Quran tends (or doesn’t) to encourage murder of civilians. Of course Mohammed himself ordered beheadings of captives at Banu Qurayza. No other major religious figure was a warlord.

    There are far more violent passages which don’t translate into “terror” in English.

    http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/searchquran.html

    In addition to 3.151 and 8.12, see 8.60. That’s not all of course. What about 2.191, 7.4, 9.5, or 9.29?

  125. 125 Steve
    December 2, 2008 at 19:56

    If islam means peace, and not terror, and even though the terrorists are a tiny minority, the victims are still dead. So saying islam = peace until you are blue in the face still will not change the fact that those people are dead due to someone’s religious beliefs. They will never live again, their lives are PERMANENTLY over due to someone’s religious beliefs. Again, your feelings are not as important as the lives of other. If this offends you, BOO HOO. Muslims need to speak out against the daily violence done in their names. I fyou only protested 1/5th as much as the mohammed cartoon protests it would make a difference.

  126. 126 declan in tucson
    December 2, 2008 at 19:56

    There is a fallacy inherent in the concept that islamic faith (even in its most radical expression) is prosecuting a program of greater violence compared to other religions. For example, the World powers that represent judeo-christian religion are perpetrating much greater destruction, and impacting humanity globally than the islamic faiths. When military operatives in Nevada operating a remote aircraft slaughter dozens of innocent people they are somehow beyond scrutiny although they represent a christian state and are commanded by a commander in chief who purports to be directed by god.

    Settlers in Israel who illegally occupy Palestinian land or the Israeli occupying force which persecutes sustained repression in defiance of many UN resolutions all justify their actions as being decreed by god…

    All of these examples are Judeo Christian and are venerated by the western media because they are part of a global hegemony. Maybe when Christians resisted the Roman empire they were reviled and demonized as terrorists. The islamic military state is not more violent they are only opposed to the Judeo-Christian hegemony so they must adopt guerrilla tactics to engage as opposed to “precision” bombs and modern military ordinance which, incidentally, takes a much higher toll on humanity but is dismissed with “regret” as collateral damage.

  127. 127 Wang Yiwei
    December 2, 2008 at 19:57

    The Christian Bible condemns non-believers to Hell, period. If any of the Christian audience here starts to argue that ‘one can not take the Bible literarily’, then who are your to interpret the Koran according to your understanding?

    Any violence has to be resolved by non-sectarian methods. To set up a discussion topic such as ‘Must Muslims now accept that Islam has a problem with terrorism?’ is totally rude!!!

    BBC, you are very rude today!

    The real reason of violence and poverty are totalitarian ruling. One does not need to go back too further in the European history to see atrocities Christian church has committed to humanity. Vatican is as evil as another other religion in this sense. The religious dominance of the Christianity in Europe is a proof of

    I have to warn the people in the west that the progress you have made was totally unrelated to the Christianity. The separation of the church and the government, free election and freedom of speech are the real back rock of long term prosperity. The Islamic world is to experience the same change before reaching long term stability.

    I am not afraid of upsetting the Christian audience to raise the real question. BBC as in the U.K., CNN as in the U.S. does hesitate in front of their pretentious self-claimed Bible lovers (and the Jewish millionaires).

  128. 128 Steve
    December 2, 2008 at 19:57

    Oh lord, I’m going to puke listen to Dr. Khan playing the victim card. Wow, he gets searched by the TSA in the airport. So do I. Big deal, act like a man. You’re trying to compare getting your bags searched to murdering people in Mumbai? Sickening. Quit the victim card.

  129. 129 Frank, Florida, USA
    December 2, 2008 at 19:59

    Islam does have a problem with terrorism, exclusively. Not the adherents of Islam, but the religious institution itself. Other religions in the world have mechanisms in the political system to terminate extremist violence. Rule of law in other nations is the check that religious adherents can count on to protect the integrity of the religion and decry extremist violence. However, in Islam, extremist behavior is not checked by political systems. It seems unlikely that individuals would step out in protest on their own. The silence at a leadership level to decry extremist violence, and open politicization of religious aggressiveness encourages terrorist acts. Unless politicizers cease to celebrate the violence, Islam as a whole is at the mercy of extremist leadership. If there is diversity among the Islam, then that diversity is squelched by the silent acquiescence of the leadership.

  130. 130 Lovemore
    December 2, 2008 at 19:59

    If you want to know the character of Islam, look at what they do to Muslims who defect to other religions. The defector would have to flee from the community where he/she is known coz even his own family members can kill him! does that sound like pace?

  131. 131 Adam
    December 2, 2008 at 19:59

    Killing other people because they don’t listen to or understand you is very ironic because it’s usually the killers/terrorists who don’t listen to or understand their victims. The mindset of terrorists reminds me of someone who epitomized the exact opposite kind of mindset, Jon Postel. He was an American who made significant contributions to the development of the Internet, particularly in the area of standards. One of his greatest legacies was something that is now referred to as Postel’s Law, which is “be conservative in what you do, be liberal in what you accept from others.” A terrorist is liberal in what they do and conservative in what they accept from others, and this mindset must change and should never be justified by anyone.

  132. December 2, 2008 at 20:01

    @ scott

    Collectively, we are all human beings on the planet earth. Some of us are good, some of us are bad.

    All blonds are stupid.
    All redheads are wild in the sack.
    All men with big feet have big Johnson’s.
    All women should cook, clean, do dishes, and have children.
    All French are arrogant and rude.
    All Americans are stupid cowboys.
    All Brits are pompous.
    All Germans are secretly plotting to take over the world.
    All Muslims are evil.

    All white Christians are perfect.

  133. 133 Steve
    December 2, 2008 at 20:02

    @ wang

    “and the jewish millionaires”. I guess since you obviously hate jews and christians, we should all follow your sage advice.

    This topic is rude? I think murdering people is even more rude. But if we need to continue to stick our heads in the ground and deny who’s doing it, then feel free to do that. We’ll still know who is doing the killing.

  134. 134 Lance
    December 2, 2008 at 20:04

    @ Shalin.

    Your point of being American first, Muslim second is very welcome and what we must exactly see throughout the Muslim world that has inhabited the West. That is the precise problem that we see. Multiculturalism (or rather the agents of it) don’t allow (or rather want) Muslims to integrate into Western society and thus always remain Muslim first, British/French/German/etc. second instead of the other way around.

    You may say that its ridiculous that the ideology is rooted in Islam, but that is exactly what it is. These people get their motivation for their attacks from Islamis texts, from the influence of Muhammad.

    The Western world may very well control the media, money, power as you assert, but the Western world in a lot of cases has ignored these worldwide attacks committed in the name of Allah and jihad.

    We need to see the widespread condemnation of these terrorist attacks. We need to see the same numbers that protested against the Danish cartoons, protest against terrorist attacks committed in the name of Islam. But the Islamic world has been committing these attacks in mass since the 70s (steadily increasing since that time) and to some Muslims and Westerners alike, Islam has been waging war against the West for over 1400years.

    If Islam really means peace, then the Muslim world is going to have to rise up against those who commit war in its name. Only then, will we non-Muslims really believe that this is sincere and that Islamic terrorism shall not be feared as greatly as it is today. But for now, Islam shall be rightly criticized (we should be free to criticize it anyways) and we shall be the ones to tell what we view as wrong.

  135. 135 Oedipa
    December 2, 2008 at 20:04

    You cannot deny that many terrorists are Muslim. Just like you cannot deny that at the heart of most child-marrying sex cults is a guy claiming to be Jesus.

  136. 136 Anthony
    December 2, 2008 at 20:10

    @ Dan

    Hmmmm, thats funny, have you read John 3:16? I believe it does tell how to get to heaven, and I do believe Christianity is the most popular religion.

    And you’re right, religion was for those reasons, thats why the world gets along so well now, religion (* please insert sarcasm here).

    -Anthony, LA, CA

  137. 137 Steve
    December 2, 2008 at 20:11

    @ declan

    Do jews target non jews all over the world? When was a last time jewish gunmen attacked hotels in Mumbai and tried to kill non Jews AND in the name of Judaism? Can you provide me an example? I won’t hold my breath.

  138. 138 John
    December 2, 2008 at 20:15

    Lets review,
    Muslim attacks in the Us. Muslim attacks in the UK. Muslim attacks in Bali. Muslim attacks in France. Muslim attacks in Spain. Muslim attacks in Afghanistan. Muslim attacks in the Philippines. Muslim attacks in Iraq. Muslim attacks in Gaza( daily rocket barrages) Muslim attacks in Denmark where Theo Van Gogh was slaughtered in the streets asking his Muslim murderer,” Can’t we talk about this?” His reward was to be shot and have a note buried in his chest. Fatwas issued against Western writers. genocide in Dar fur as Christians are slaughtered by the thousands by Muslims. Now we have the latest attack in India. Was it Christians? Jews? Mormons? Baptists? No it was Muslims. The one man caught declares he did it in the name of Allah and has no regrets. I forgot to mention the USS Cole and the Khobar tower bombers or the beirut barracks or the Iranian hostages or the murder of Jewish athletes in Munich.
    I think it is clear to anyone that Islam is a religion of peace that only seeks a fair chance to live peacefully with the world. But it might be a good idea to cover your Dhimmi necks anyway.

  139. 139 VictorK
    December 2, 2008 at 20:19

    The Muslim guests were all in various degrees of denial, and of course had no choice but to deny the real charge against Islam, which is that it’s inherently violent as a matter of doctrine, practice and history. It was hard to see them as anything more than public relations men charged with patching up Islam’s battered reputation (‘Muslims don’t march, it’s not in their culture; except, of course, for when they do march over teddy bears, cartoons and papal speeches’ Not too convincing).

    If Islam underwent a reformation and divested itself of violence it wouldn’t be Islam anymore, and no ideology or religion, however debased, will reform itself by committing suicide. Islamic violence is a permanent problem.

    Robert Spencer provided some useful balance, but it would have been interesting to have had on a group who would have justified terrorism, like Hizb ut-Tahrir (but I imagine the Quilliam rep would have fled the studio if that had happened). The BBC does seem to like Quilliam, doesn’t it?

    Some of the comments here trying to draw parallels with Christian and Jewish violence are as desperate and implausible as the three Muslim guests often were. Still, it was an interesting programme.

  140. 140 Adam
    December 2, 2008 at 20:21

    Chip, many if not all religious texts throughout history have contained violence. Even the Christian Bible.

    “Where are thee who do not want me to be the king? Bring them all hence, slay each in front of me” — Jesus Christ, Luke 19:27

  141. 141 tikkooo
    December 2, 2008 at 20:22

    The Christians even used to commit worst atrocities and gruesome crimes in the name of religion. Scientists, fore stance, used to be burnt alive. But those were hundreds of years ago. Unfortunately Muslims are doing such things in twenty first century. Therefore, the problem is partly religion and partly ignorance and mostly the Western governments injustice and hypocrisy.
    Nowadays, clergies are very educated. They expanded their knowledge in every scientific and technological fields. While their Muslims counterparts are still bogged only in religion knowledge—a knowledge which they don’t thoroughly understand .

  142. 142 Wang Yiwei
    December 2, 2008 at 20:24

    To 128 Lovemore,

    How do you do?

    I just want to point out the fact that dominance of Christian religion in Europe or Buddhism in Tibet in the history CAN NOT be realized without utter terror.

    The character of totalitarian regime is real reason. But guess what? The west is friend with the oil-rich regimes…

  143. 143 Ron Reginald
    December 2, 2008 at 20:25

    Why is there so much Islamic inspired Terrorism?
    The answer is in the Koran and Hadiths.
    Read them and you will know,
    Ron

  144. December 2, 2008 at 20:28

    The blog today shows clearly that Muslims apologize for the terrorists within their communities, and that in the West there are many who believe that their victims have it coming.

    I ask all of you who think we are evil for fighting Islamic jihad, what do you think would happen if we followed Gandhi’s example, and practiced pure non-violence against the Islamic terrorists?

  145. 145 Bert
    December 2, 2008 at 20:29

    Wang might have had a point, if people in the west had a habit of identifying everything they think and do by their religion. But the fact is, they do not.

    It sounds absurd to most sane people in the west, when some crazy lunatic commits an atrocity in the name of Jesus, for instance. And this person would quickly and in no uncertain terms be denounced by everyone else, and most likely committed to an asylum.

    All these facile comparisons with Christians don’t hold water. The Christians you apologists are talking about disappeared during the Renaissance, for heaven’s sake.

    “I have to warn the people in the west that the progress you have made was totally unrelated to the Christianity. The separation of the church and the government, free election and freedom of speech are the real back rock of long term prosperity.”

    OF COURSE. That’s the whole point! This isn’t about “my God is the right God.” This is all about, keep your strange beliefs to yourself.

  146. 146 selena in Canada
    December 2, 2008 at 20:30

    @tokkooo

    Yesterday a Walmart employee was trampled to death and shoppers stepped on his dead body in their rush to get to the bargains in the store.

    That did not happen centuries ago.

    I bet that a goodly number of those people call themselves Christian.

  147. 147 Steve
    December 2, 2008 at 20:32

    @ Selena

    But did they trample im to death over religion and in the name of their religion? Again, apples and oranges.

    200 people were killed in mumbai due to the religious beliefs of the terrorists. Those 200 people will be dead for the rest of eternity. That did not happen centuries ago, it happened last week. There were bombings in Iraq TODAY.

  148. 148 Bert
    December 2, 2008 at 20:35

    Oh yeah, that’s relevant. And I suppose the greedy shoppers were invoking the name of Jesus while they trampled the poor door guard.

    Gimme a break.

  149. 149 Dan
    December 2, 2008 at 20:35

    @Paul Harbin – Waco Texas

    You mean that all redheads AREN’T wild in the sack?

  150. 150 tikkooo
    December 2, 2008 at 20:36

    Selena

    I honestly call that a misfortunate accident. Nothing, to do with religion.

  151. 151 Dan
    December 2, 2008 at 20:37

    @portlandmike December 2, 2008 at 8:28 pm

    I ask all of you who think we are evil for fighting Islamic jihad, what do you think would happen if we followed Gandhi’s example, and practiced pure non-violence against the Islamic terrorists?
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    The answer is simple…..We’d all be dead. You can only use Non-Violence against a moral enemy.

  152. 152 Amar
    December 2, 2008 at 20:40

    For the good for the world, for the good of their community muslims should try to stop all these things. Its more problem for them than for the world.

    They always say they are oppressed, there are so many ways than bombing people killing them (affect the life of so many innocent people) to get attention of the world.

    What are they saying, by these killings, do they get any thing ? I dont see the point. If they want to flourish and help the betterment of their community then work on improving the life of their community instead of fighting and killing people

    Blaming all muslims as terrorists is not right, I do have friends they are good people. But day by day they are loosing the trust of the world.

  153. 153 Sheena Wild
    December 2, 2008 at 20:41

    And the more these “experts” deny that islam has anything to do with terrorism, the more deadly terrorism moslems will commit across the world.

    The people that are in denial about islam and the apologists only encourage moslems to kill even more.

  154. 154 Stublore
    December 2, 2008 at 20:44

    ” Jessica in NYC December 2, 2008 at 6:36 pm
    …Ignorance breeds ignorance. While Muslim fundamentalist continue to cultivate terrorist, other religions will continue to perpetuate the same hate that subjects innocent Muslims to racist attacks…”

    Err, islam is not a race. therefore any “attacks” upon muslims on the basis of their religion by definition cannot be racist.


    Shailin December 2, 2008 at 7:51 pm
    …Islam MEANS peace.”

    Now that is a blatant LIE. As you well know, being a muslim, and I assume fluent in Arabic, islam actually means SUBMISSION, which is very different from peace, unless you are referring to the “peace” you achieve by giving up and submitting to your tormentors.


    declan in tucson December 2, 2008 at 7:56 pm

    .. beyond scrutiny although they represent a christian state..”
    Wow, what a shabby attempt that was. America is not a christian state in the sense that you tried to use it. Every action which the state makes is not viewed through the lens of christianity. Have you read the the American constitution, the separation of state and religion?

    To understand islamic violence, you only have to look at how islam views the world;
    the world is divided into two components: dar al-Islam, the house of Islam and dar al-Harb,THE HOUSE OF WAR.

  155. 155 Sudarsana
    December 2, 2008 at 20:44

    These coments are based on the responses given by the speakers Mr Khan and the professor from university of Delaware.

    The Professor from Delaware had expressed what is going to happen when Muslims in the world demonstrate aganist the terrorist activities executed by the Muslim, any demonstration aganist these activities by their own community personnell would ring the bells or at least wan these terrorists, that their actions are not accepted by their own religion, there by these terrorists come to know atleast they can not use the religious fundamentalism in their cause, then they are isolated with out any reason or cause to do these acts.Since their own community is agnist them.

    Second Mr khan observatio that 2000 muslims were killed in gujarat, but he did not specify who instigated this and why it happened, whole world talk about 2000 people but what about the 200 people killed by whom?.

    So somebdoy instigated this to happen, when any thing happens to the minorities of nay society the majority populations is blamed.

    I suppose people have forgotten in this Mumbai epiosde the things happened in Nigeria and blood bath was more the total died in Mumbai. there christians versus Muslims, in India it Hindu versus Muslims, Christians.

    The Indians had accepted the rule of other religions for six hundred years by muslims, 200 years by Christians (British), Hindus always followed the Rules of game even in fighting these rulers.

  156. 156 Abrog8
    December 2, 2008 at 20:50

    Islam is as Islam does. Muslims follow the ways of thier prophet. They regard him as the perfect man.
    In one hadith Muhammad boasted, “I have been made victorious through terror”. Bukhari 4:52.220
    “Fight and slay the pagans (or infidels or unbelievers) wherever you find them.” (9:5)
    Like Christians some study the texts in greater detail. Some are more obligatory concerning its tenets. The fact that the Quran (Allahs word never to be questioned) and Hadith (Muhammads biography) are filled with hate are the difference.
    Jesus said “Love thy neighbor”
    Muhammad said “When ye meet the unbelievers, smite at their necks”
    Islam will always be a problem. Because it’s an ideology of world domination.

  157. 157 Steve
    December 2, 2008 at 20:52

    Claims that the terrorists tortured the jewish victims before they killed them. Again, let’s find out “why” they did these attacks so we can “understand” them…. Please..

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/3539171/Mumbai-attacks-Jews-tortured-before-executed-during-hostage-crisis.html

  158. 158 Scott (M)
    December 2, 2008 at 20:55

    Paul Harbin – Waco Texas,

    No thanks for that. It doesn’t say anything at all about this discussion—is entirely useless and thoroughly cliched. Superficial views like what you attempt to point out, are part of the problem. Associating alleged examples of apples and apples, with apples and Styrofoam. I know it is what you want to hear, but it is not what I said. Perhaps you could answer some of the questions I asked.

    So if it is all just some people are good and some people are bad as you suggest—does a collective group have any more power or influence then the individual? Or were most Germans bad? Were most Hutus bad? There is power in a collective ideology that is often stronger then the power of an individual acting alone. Or is it all coincidence? There just happened to be a lot of bad Hutus?

  159. 159 VictorK
    December 2, 2008 at 20:58

    @Selena: aaah, but you know as well as I do (I guessed it from the nature of the incident, a guess that was later confirmed by visual footage) what the operative factor was in the Wal Mart incident, and it had nothing to do with ‘Christianity’. But I’d best say no more.

    Remember Margaret Hassan, the saintly woman who married an Iraqi, lived in Iraq, was probably a Muslim convert, was a vocal opponent of the US invasion, and who devoted most of her adult life to helping Iraqis? Jihadis kidnapped her, held her hostage, in all likelihood raped her, and then filmed themselves sawing of her head in the name of Islam (I understand that even Jihadi propaganda outlets like Al Jazeera decided not to broadcast the footage that their friends supplied them with of this particular atrocity, for fear that people might think badly of Islam as a result. They needn’t have worried). Her body was never found.

    When you can point to an instance of Christians, Buddhists, hindus or Jews, in the name of their religion, behaving in a comparable way, then you’ll have proved your point that ‘it’s not just Islam’. But we all know, it is just Islam.

  160. 160 jamily5
    December 2, 2008 at 20:59

    Angela,
    Bridget Gaybriel is not a true and valid source.
    I found many inconsistencies in her accounts.

  161. 161 jamily5
    December 2, 2008 at 21:05

    Jessica,
    I saw that movie.
    What I found more disturbing was that Sohail, left his religion behind to be part of Britain’s force on terrorists.
    While Nausima gave her life, Sohail sacrificed his religion.

  162. 162 Scott (M)
    December 2, 2008 at 21:06

    Selena in Canada,

    Christians should certainly be held accountable for the bigotry, hatred and discrimination that many of their religions foster. But trampling people at a Walmart, is very different from committing an act of terrorism in the name of a religion. I don’t think the tramplers claim they did it for a god or a faith. If Christians start trampling for their faith, then I think we will ask the same questions of them.

  163. 163 ultraslug
    December 2, 2008 at 21:08

    @selena

    I can’t fathom what a tragic, unintentional death of a Walmart employee has to do with the topic at hand.

    Repeat after me: This topic is about violence and murder committed by people *in the name of their religion*.

  164. 165 David in France
    December 2, 2008 at 21:16

    but do you see anyone jumping up and down and celebrating the death of the Walmart employee, as is often the case after these despicable terrorist attacks. You need to choose your analogies a bit more carefully. If you did, you might find that gleefully celebrating mass murder seems to be a common thread among these terrorist attacks, and few in the Islamic clergy have the courage to condemn this.

  165. 166 Sarah
    December 2, 2008 at 21:18

    Awful lot of denial going on here, folks.

    If jihadism is a reaction to grievances against the West, why is it happening in Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, Egypt and Africa? Is that our fault as well?

    These people always have a grievance wherever they are. And they resolve their grievances by shooting nuns, beheading contractors, raping women and children (as in Beslan), and setting off bombs in marketplaces.

    If these things are nothing to do with Islam, why are they shouting ‘Allah Akhbar’ before they saw a man’s head off with a knife? Why do men in Palestine walk around with an AK47 in one hand and a Qur’an in the other? Why do martyrdom videos invariably include the caveat that a) you are going out to cause the maximum carnage possible and b) you expect to go to heaven for your efforts? Why do they say in their own words that religion is their motivation and that they also wish to establish Islam all over the world by whatever means necessary? Do any self-hating Westerners here who think that if we weren’t in Iraq and Afghanistan tomorrow, there’d be no problem, take the time to read what these people are saying in their own words? Even the Nazis wanted to live. Radical Islam is worse than Nazism. These people actually believe that they will get a straight pass to God by butchering people and killing themselves while they do it.

    Strawmen on the IRA. They didn’t kill people while shouting ‘Jesus is great’ or read passages from the Bible while they did it. They didn’t go to Church where pastors told them to go out and kill as many people as possible, citing passages from the Bible as justification. They didn’t state that their goal was to conquer the entire world for their religion. Contrast this with Imams who say that suicide bombing is legitimate and women who raise their children to be living bombs. The IRA was over a political dispute, not a religious one.

    Nothing to do with Islam? Everything to do with the West? My, my. You guys have a lot to learn. The world doesn’t revolve around the West. There are plenty of attacks going on around the world we’re nowhere near. Read the news further afield than Britain or America. How about Mumbai? Oh yes, they have a grievance. And ‘yes, but.’

    Incidentally, to the Muslims who’ve responded. Tired of your ‘tu quoque.’ That’s right, I’m damn tired of it. You always have to mention attacks by saying ‘Iraq’ or ‘Israel’ or ‘Afghanistan.’ If you have to preface your apologia with ‘I don’t agree with it, but’ why don’t you just come out and say you don’t quite agree with it, but you do really. And in Afghanistan where they throw acid in girl’s faces for going to school, or sentence a man to death for reading about why men can have four wives and women can’t, if you’d rather have the Taliban in charge, bunch of thugs and murderers they are, I wish my country would oblige you. And then I wish you’d go and live there for a little while. They don’t think too highly of women with an education, but maybe if you get to see how they ‘elevate’ women from a closer angle, you’ll stop drowning us all in indirect justifications.

  166. 167 David in France
    December 2, 2008 at 21:23

    when are we going to hear about the calling of a world summit of islamic leaders to work on combatting the problem of terrorism perpetrated by islamic extremists? Islam may not have a monopoly on terrorism, but it definitely accounts for the vast majority in today’s world.

  167. December 2, 2008 at 21:25

    @ Selena in Canada

    You must be the stupidest person in Canada. You blame a stampede that killed a person on the Christians?!

    You are a person that tries to find every bit possible to blame others that really aren’t guilty when the guilty just laughs at you effort of doing so. That is stupidity 101.

    When will you wake up and see that Islam is a terrible and highly political ideology that really hate everything that we non-muslims stands for. Take away Islam and you will not have any religious problems any more. I have studied Islam very closely the last 15 years, I know what the Quran, Hadiths and Shari’a says.

    WAKE UP PEOPLE! You decide you future as I have with mine, continued freedom without any religious idiots trying to dictate our lives.

  168. 169 jamily5
    December 2, 2008 at 21:28

    Hey, shane,
    I know of the song.
    I like it.
    But, I did not know of the organization.
    Thanks

  169. 170 selena in Canada
    December 2, 2008 at 21:31

    To all the people who can’t understand what the trampling to death of a Walmart employee has to do with the topic at hand, let me try to explain.

    The employee was killed by people who did not care one whit about other human beings. There was a total disregard for human life in this barbaric act.

    If you think that 200 people dying from a terrorist attack is more terrible that this incident them I am afraid that you are one of the people who thinks in terms of numbers, rather than individual lives. Please… I am not a number; I am one human and 200 lives are made up of 200 ones.

    The people outside Walmart were products of their respective religions and one on one they all seem to be good people.But, this incident most certainly cannot be separated from any other kind of violence. To do so is to disregard the life of one human being in favor of 200 or whatever number you wish.

    It doesn’t matter how a person is killed… whether by a person with a bomb strapped on his/her person, a bomb dropped from a plane or by a person who simply cares more for trinkets in Walmart, it all equates to the same thing… devaluing human life.

    Please try to see a bigger picture… one that includes each and every one of us in this sorry state of global affairs. Because if you don’t mind killing a person on the way to shop at Walmart, then you don’t care about people.

    And, by the way, some would say consumerism is a religion.

  170. 171 Ali in California
    December 2, 2008 at 21:32

    When people of any persuation become radicalised, their reaction will surely involve efforts to seek justification/motivation from what they believe in (i.e. their religion). The question to be answered is, is this radicalisation the consequence of some socio-economic oppression, some suppression of basic rights or is it something that evolves wholly from the beliefs they hold. If you look at the muslim populations in various regions, look at their recent past (mostly under colonial rule) and look at their current social, economic and political situation, the answer is not too hard to find. Narrowing the scope to an examination of the beliefs won’t help.

    This is a horrendous crime (Mumbai attacks). Every sane person of any religion is practically overcome with grief at the loss and destruction of innocent lives. People need to channel their energies to stand up against these acts and adopt strategies to prevent them. Expecting a sub-set of these same people, who share the grief and sorrow of their fellow man, to accept the guilt for this act simply by association through religion is useless. Perhaps even counter-productive.

  171. December 2, 2008 at 21:37

    It is almost most of the terrorists are muslims, like 99%. It is the teachings of Islam is the problem.

  172. 173 selena in Canada
    December 2, 2008 at 21:41

    @Sarah

    If jihadism is a reaction to grievances against the West, why is it happening in Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, Egypt and Africa? Is that our fault as well?

    You might want to look at the history of Christianity. The roots of evil go deep.

  173. 174 Khan Ali
    December 2, 2008 at 21:44

    It seems that people have Steve and his buddies have are clue less.

    Islam has nothing to do with terrorism. If freedom strugles are called terrorism, revenging from the nations who rape your 10 year old daughters, murderer 3 year old innocent kids by WHAT EVER WAY THAT IS AVAILABLE TO THEM. The world can not provide them justice then if they take out their revenge from rest of the worl then its fair game. Either give them their rights or call them terrorist. YOU NEED TO DECIDE WHICH WILL COLVE THE PROBLEM. Change the releigion of 1.2 billion people or change the policy which leads to murder.

    You guys justify the murder of millions killed in hiroshema for greater good, and deny the right of justice and right to raise hell if they dont get it to those 30 guys who came into Taj.

  174. 175 selena in Canada
    December 2, 2008 at 21:50

    To the person who said Christianity is a peaceful religion, Jesus said if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.

    That verse has been used to excuse many Christian acts of violence.

    If Christians kill, does it matter if they say they are doing it for their religion?

    @Dragonen

    I don’t mind being the stupidest person in Canada. I take it as a compliment, actually.
    :-)

  175. 176 Scott (M)
    December 2, 2008 at 21:54

    Selena,

    You should have just admitted you made an inaccurate comparison and left it at that.

    You talk about devaluing human life, which is a very important topic, but it is also important why and how people come to devalue human life as individuals and groups. Religions repeatedly make claims that atheists and others don’t value human life—so questioning how much value the religious have for human life is a good idea, but it is still a stretch from the topic at hand.

    Certainly many things, issues and ideas are related, but you can’t ignore degrees and nuance—stretching the band to fit around a slipshod comparison.

  176. 177 kpellyhezekiah
    December 2, 2008 at 21:55

    I do believe that muslims have a problem in dealing with terrorism. They must wage a big JIHAD in the minds and hearts of their people in order to bring them to the truths of the Koran. Every Imam worth his salt must rise up and be counted. Islam is peace. I am a christian

  177. 178 steve
    December 2, 2008 at 22:02

    @ Selena

    That’s unbelievable. While the walmart thing is a tragedy, and it shows horrible aspects of human nature, nobody DELIBERATELY tried to kill him. The mumbai terrorists DELIBERATELY set out to kill people. Again, like in the arab-israeli conflict or , people don’t seem to understand the concept of intent.

  178. 179 kpellyhezekiah
    December 2, 2008 at 22:04

    One person that I’m beginning to respect on this site in Selena in Canada. Please, guys Selena has opened the door to the truth in her entry about the stampede in the supermarket but you won’t give her a thought. Why?

  179. 180 steve
    December 2, 2008 at 22:08

    @ Khan

    (1) Millions weren’t killed in Hiroshima. It was less than the conventional bombings of Tokyo.

    (2) The US used nuclear weapons to end a war it DID NOT START against an enemy prepared to fight to the death.

    People get killed in wars. Last I checked, India and Pakistan aren’t currently at war, yet some insane jihadis went around, targetting people. If you want to excuse it, justify, more power to you. But admit who the problem is with. We’re all adults here. Act it.

  180. 181 selena in Canada
    December 2, 2008 at 22:08

    @Scott

    You should have just admitted you made an inaccurate comparison and left it at that.

    If I believed it were an inaccurate comparison I would have no trouble admitting it. I don’t happen to think so. We ignore the little things and when they are reflected by bigger events such as the herd following the next messiah we don’t understand what has happened. We are truly shocked.

    Exposure of the dark side of human nature begins with an analysis of why individual people do the things they do. Trampling a person to death while shopping and being so carried away with the incident as to forget all reason is an example of the violence that plagues human kind.

    What is really interesting to me is how quickly the sugar coating begins. If there is going to be any hope of change we must begin with the violence that plagues our individual lives daily. If we don’t address that issue, talking about violence at the global level remains just another game to occupy our time.

  181. 182 steve
    December 2, 2008 at 22:09

    Again, selena, while christianity has a terrible history, we are living in 2008. Soon the be 2009. Christians don’t kill over christianity anymore. 200 people in Mumbai are dead because of someone’s fervent islamic beliefs. We live NOW, not centuries ago.

  182. 183 steve
    December 2, 2008 at 22:15

    @ Selena

    Comparing walmart to deliberately killing 200 people, is, uh, I am actually speechless on this one. That you even think they are comparable speaks volumes.

  183. 184 VictorK
    December 2, 2008 at 22:30

    @Selena: this is about moral causation. When a Christian or a Muslim acts, that act is not in itself ‘Christian’ or ‘Islamic’. Even if they claim that the act is Christian or Islamic, that doesn’t make it so. I wouldn’t, for example, condemn Islam because of Somali piracy, even though the Somali pirates are all Muslim.

    But when a Christian or Muslim acts in accordance with the accepted and orthodox teaching of his religion, then you are entitled to characterise the action in question as ‘Christian’ or ‘Islamic’. Christians have certainly been violent in the past: but Christianity has never been a faith that endorses violence. Who did Jesus kill or order to be killed? Christians have sinned when they have been aggressively violent.The same cannot be said of Islam. Muhammed was a man of violence who killed and ordered others to kill. The Koran – Muhammad’s manifesto, as it were – is full of commands to fight and kill non-Muslims. 1300 years of Islamic history have seen Muslims continually fulfil the orthodox tenet of their religion to wage violent Jihad against non-Muslims. Christianity may have had violent phases, but Islam (as far as non-Muslims are concerned) is nothing more than violence. Violence is an approved and integral part of Islamic doctrine. It is Islamic. It is Islam.

    And numbers do matter. One death is terrible; a million deaths are that many times more terrible.

  184. 185 viola
    December 2, 2008 at 22:39

    The difference is that nobody expects another trampling to happen at Walmart. As far as I know it has happened only once and was the result of a certain set of circumstances and of a mob psychology that developed and led to tragedy. Terrorist attacks on innocents are deliberate and will definitely happen again as soon as another target is selected and the killers trained and equipped. No use trying to confuse the issue

  185. December 2, 2008 at 22:40

    Indian Authorities have pointed their fingers at Pakistanis, and possible links to rogue elements there, not Islamists. This is natural because of religious senitivties both within India and the region. It would also appear that the group’s terrorist actions in Mumbai may have been inspired with the six decade old Kashmir problem and its possible connection to the Lashkar-e-Taiba militants.

  186. 187 Bert
    December 2, 2008 at 22:45

    People who trample others by complete accident, because they are so darned greedy they can’t see past the stampede instinct, are in no way comparable to those who murder deliberately, invoking the name of some fictitious force. Or, for that matter, some ideology.

    The difference is clear: INTENT.

    I trust, no has has witnessed a rash of WalMart door guard tramplings around the world, in the name of Wall Street, Capitalism, Jesus, or the Tooth Fairy?

    Apologists are those who feel irresistably compelled to excuse the inexcusable. Whatever the evil that was perpetrated, if the evildoer cannot be identified as such, because that would violate some politcally correct formula, then all manner of hyperbole has to be invented to deflect the blame elsewhere.

    Hey, just because we are talking about terrorists here, it doesn’t mean we all love and approve of the greedy stampeded of idiots at WalMart, right? That happens to be a totally different subject. And no, it is not proof of superior intellect to turn the two topics into one.

  187. December 2, 2008 at 23:01

    About Muslims and terrorism you will never get the majority of Muslims to admit to much other than being continualy persicuted they choose to live in a christian land and absorb everything that is good for the mind and body, but wont enter into the dress of our society .I would recomend any one to watch channel 813 on SKY TV The Islam Channel I will not saY ANY MORE judge for yourselves.

  188. 189 selena in Canada
    December 2, 2008 at 23:01

    @ Bert

    Now that is an interesting word… intent.

    Isn’t that the word that excuses collateral damage?

  189. 190 Lovemore
    December 2, 2008 at 23:02

    The belief that if one dies while fighting for Allah’s cause, he/she goes straight to paradise, has provided motivation for suicide bombing.

  190. 191 selena in Canada
    December 2, 2008 at 23:12

    @Victor

    Christianity has never been a faith that endorses violence.

    Victor!!! You are joking, right?

    There are very many people who interpret the faith to mean conversion by violent means. There are very many Christians who believe invading Iraq (for instance) was god’s will.

    There are very many Christians who believe that Muslims are infidels, Blacks are animals and gays are an abomination. Yes, Victor, even today in 2008!

    If we are expecting peaceful Muslims to rise up against Islam, shouldn’t we be doing the same souls searching?

    That is all I am asking, by the way. Why does that expectation shock everyone?

  191. 192 Jennifer
    December 2, 2008 at 23:17

    Re: What does a stampede of greedy mannerless idiots have to do with Christianity?

    Absolutely nothing. The stampede incident was motivated by the lack of concern we have for other people today and greedy materialism which is rampant here.

    To say that those people stampeded that person to death in the name of their religion is not the truth. Equating them with terrorists is inaccurate for that reason.

    While we want to have compassion for terrorists because they are “disadvantaged”, we are not even the slightest bit aware of the fact that we are lumping all Christians together and making them the problem when that is not the case in this situation.

    I wonder what would happen if there was a topic about all Muslims being terrorists. Would it be wrong if it were any other religious group being lumped together besides Christians? My guess is that it would then be stereotyping or discrimination. That double standard should be addressed.

  192. 193 Captain America
    December 2, 2008 at 23:19

    I really enjoy the Muslim apologists who suddenly turn into historians to point out historical attrocities commited by other religions. Two wrongs don’t make a right. In the here and now, Islam is a constant force of evil with a clear agenda of worldwide indoctrination, subgigation and opression via the sword. There is no greater force of evil on this planet today.

  193. 194 Bert
    December 2, 2008 at 23:30

    Yes, Selena, it is. Just like the MD who is operating on a patient, and something goes horribly wrong.

    I’m in no way a proponent of this ill-conceived war, EVEN IF the WMDs had been found, by the way. But collateral damage is the stuff that destroys a soldier’s future. Make no mistake. It’s not something the soldier will easily live past.

    That is in stark contrast to what THIS subject matter was about.

    I never approved of the swagger-style foreign policy of this administration. But that doesn’t mean that I find myself compelled to excuse insane acts of evil perpetrated by others.

  194. 195 The 4th Wiseman
    December 2, 2008 at 23:43

    Where is the worldwide outrage from Moslems about the terrorist attacks in Mumbai? In the media I have heard nothing but silence from them………

    The first step in solving a problem, is to admit there is a problem……

    And so far, all I hear from Moslems is silence…..and excuses, and denial.

  195. 196 selena in Canada
    December 2, 2008 at 23:44

    @Bert

    I am curious. Where do you get the idea that I am excusing anything?

  196. 197 Khan Ali
    December 3, 2008 at 00:19

    @ Steve

    Please learn some facts about India and Pakistan and then start talking. The fact you know spelling of Pakistan does not mean you know what is going on. You have no clue.

    Indian Involement in Terrorist Attacks in Pakistan

    http://www.rense.com/general25/team.htm

    Indian Involemnet in drug trade

    http://www.india-seminar.com/2005/550/550%20subir%20bhaumik.htm

    Indian Involment in creation of banglsdesh

    http://www.worldpress.org/Asia/2927.cfm

    I suggust you do a bit more reading before talking. Being adult means you need to understand that humans are not machines. when Murderers have power and no where to turn people commit acts such as in Bombay. As far as Pakistan involement is concered not a shred of evidence is available except for Indiian goverment saying its Pakistan for local political gains.

  197. 198 Khan Ali
    December 3, 2008 at 00:22

    Oh by the way, the whole point that is to be made is no one will be safe unless everyone is delt with justice. Islam preaches that a state must be just and morally correct, whcih none of the islamic states are.

    IF ISLAM IS IMPLEMENTED INCORRECTLY IT DOES NOT MAKE ISLAM IS WRONG, IT MAKE MUSLIMS WRONG AND THEY NEED TO BE CORRECTED.

  198. 199 Bert
    December 3, 2008 at 00:26

    You mean, you don’t see yourself habitually deflecting blame, or trying hard to show how the object of the dicussion can be distorted just enough to make it appear less grotesque? Or better yet, common to everyone?

    Happens all the time, on multiple subject matter. In this case, if a particular faith is often found to condone, if not encourge, terrorist acts, and to do so frequently enough that no one can miss it, then a predictable few on here will not be able to resist the urge to tell us how Christianity does that too.

    What, like anyone who opposes terrorist acts, by default, must be a conservative Christian, a hypocrite, and likely a terrorist himself?

    If you take a picture with a poor enough lens, it is true, all subject matter will end up looking like gray fog.

  199. 200 selena in Canada
    December 3, 2008 at 01:02

    @Bert

    You mean, you don’t see yourself habitually deflecting blame, or trying hard to show how the object of the dicussion can be distorted just enough to make it appear less grotesque? Or better yet, common to everyone?

    I am taking this as an answer to my question. Perhaps it is a case of if the cap fits, wear it. The cap seems to fit me. :-)

    Yes, I do habitually deflect blame. I know that very well. Perhaps deflect is not an apt word though… it is more like I try to distribute blame more equally. However, I can understand that anyone who feels that some humans are blameless can see distribution as deflection.

    If you think that makes violence less grotesque, then I am sorry about that. To me, the fact that we are all willing to condone the violence in our own backyard is what makes violence less grotesque.

    Sooner or later, if there is any justice, we will have no rosy glasses from which to view our own role in violence. We will have to come face to face with the stark reality that the kind of human that robs the poor on Wall Street is the same kind of human who bombs the Taj and the same kind of human who bombs Iraq and who ignores the dead man at the Walmart entrance. That human is me and you and our friends and neighbors!

    Bert, you and I turn a blind eye to violence every day. We just don’t react until there are large numbers involved or the violence is committed by those labeled terrorists. Even then our reaction is in direct relation to the amount of media coverage. For example, if more Americans saw the dead soldiers coming home in body bags, there would be more of an outcry about the war.

  200. 201 Khan Ali
    December 3, 2008 at 01:07

    What blame? Are u saying that Islam is to blame for the actions of muslims? Isnt it like saying Queen is responsible for action fo brits? or Bush responsible for acions of US army in Iraq ? Or the person who invented gun powder responsible for all the killing due to gun powder?

    “Happens all the time, on multiple subject matter. In this case, if a particular faith is often found to condone, if not encourge, terrorist acts, and to do so frequently enough that no one can miss it, then a predictable few on here will not be able to resist the urge to tell us how Christianity does that too.”

    Please tell me how many christian states are fightng for freedom from Muslim Countries so we can draw parallels. We had one East Timor which was liberated with in one month of the begining of the crises. I know atleast few muslims states which are fighting for equal rights from majroity which is not beig given to them. Eg: Palestine, Kashmir, Afghanistan, Iraq, Thailand, Philipines, Chechanya, China and Bosnia, Kosova after murder of millions of people by serb majority.

    What is one who opposes the right to grant freedom to a nation called? and what is one who fights to get that freedom called?

    This observation requires no special lens. Probably no special eyes but an unbiased mind.

  201. 202 Roberto
    December 3, 2008 at 01:38

    RE “” You guys justify the murder of millions killed in hiroshema for greater good, “”
    ———————————————————————————————————————————-

    ———— Love to see you justify your hamhanded butchering of history for your dubious purpose.

    Regardless of your faery in the skye made up numbers, Japanese military convoys traveled 2500 miles across the Pacific in a suicide attack on a US outpost while Japanese diplomats were in Washington negotiating trade relations. Hitler declared war on the US the very next day.

    Understand there is a large sentiment in the world to turn Mecca and Medina into a field of glass. For whatever their many flaws, the major nuclear powers have no desire to act in such a hamhanded way as your philosohy might.

    Let us be clear that WW2 antagonists, Japan and Germany, are two of US strongest allies. Hostilities were set aside as justice, fairplay, trade and international humanity prevailed.

    You cannot justify Islamic terrorism unless you admit that you are in a state of war against the whole of the world in every corner of the earth. Seems to be what you are alluding to.

  202. 203 bigjoerice
    December 3, 2008 at 01:48

    Throughout history, when the various religions inflicted their ideology on people, there were people to speak out against them, perhaps not effectively, but nevertheless there voices were heard and their writings recorded, and they often paid the price for questioning the actions of the times.

    Writers ask where were the Catholic and Protestant voices in places like Northern Ireland. They were there, small but insistent voices, one Catholic, one Protestant, both women, and they earned the Noble Prize for their courage and commitment to peace in setting the stage for an end to the “troubles”.

    Where is the voice of Reasonable Islam? Where are the Islamic Nobel Prize winners? We in the west continue to hear that Islam has a peaceful tradition. I do not see full page adverts in Western newspapers decrying the damage done to Islams reputation by Islamic zealots. Why do I turn on Sunday morning television and not find an Islamic talking head among all the other political propagandists?

    Even the Pope apologized to the Jews for the actions of the Catholic church; when will Islam apologize to the world for those who use its name against humanity? When Buddhists fly planes into buildings, then we in the West will ask them for the same accounting that we are asking from Islam.

    I am an Athiest ,and sometimes I despair at the “good” that all these religions and their so called followers are doing to the peoples of this world. Religion truly perpetrates, ” mans inhumanity to man”.

  203. 204 Evan
    December 3, 2008 at 01:53

    Islamic extremists are just as Muslim as the KKK are Christian. Radical Islam and true Islam are not the same religion. Certainly Muslim leaders need to, and indeed have spoken out against such attacks, and done such things as refuse to give suicide bombers proper Muslim burials. The problem with the idea that Muslims need to take some measure of responsibility is that Western Culture seems to think of Islam as a political entity, not a religion. Just as there are many forms of Christianity, there are many forms of Islam, and they aren’t all in constant communication with each other.

    More responsibility rests upon the shoulders of governments in Islamic countries like Iran, Pakistan, and formerly the Taliban. Many of these governments turn a blind eye to terrorist activities within their borders. And organizations such as Al Queada want to turn Islam and the Taliban want to use Islam as a political entity.

  204. 205 bigjoerice
    December 3, 2008 at 01:58

    “Not too long ago, it was Catholics and Protestants killing each other over religion, but I don’t remember seeing large mass movements of peaceful believers all over the world against that sectarian violence.”

    That’s because for the most part they kept it down to killing each other, and then in one small part of the planet. The fanatics who seem to have hijacked Islam generally don’t care who they kill or where they kill them, as long as the body count and they get maximum coverage for their cause on CNN / Al Jazzeri.

    That is why there is universal mistrust of the proponents of Islam in the West; that is why there will be continued universal mistrust of Islam because we only hear the gunmen speak for Islam

  205. 206 Jack Hughes
    December 3, 2008 at 01:58

    Tom Gross writing in the Wall Street Journal

    “we have become used to leftist media burying their heads in the sand about the threat that Islamic fundamentalism poses”

    and

    “But then the terrorists in Mumbai didn’t need to make any public announcements. They knew that many deluded Western journalists and academics will do that job for them, explaining that the West is to blame, especially the Zionists.”

  206. 207 steve
    December 3, 2008 at 02:01

    @ khan

    the mumbai terrorists targetted westerners, who have nothing to do with the India-Pakistan conflict. The only alternative i see from people upset about Indian accusing Pakistan have been responding saying the Jews did it.

  207. 208 steve
    December 3, 2008 at 02:02

    @ Selena

    Simple question, I would like an honest answer. Do you consider the people who attacked in mumbai to be terrorists?

  208. 209 bigjoerice
    December 3, 2008 at 02:02

    Ooops!

  209. 210 steve
    December 3, 2008 at 02:05

    @ Khan

    Muslims invaded Europe shortly after the creation of Islam. Europeans spend hundreds of years trying to get their independence from their muslim rulers or send them back to Asia/Africa. Since so many people are bringing up history in this, it’s not like Islam is innocent of attacking other nations and occupying, unless we’re going to deny that the Ottomons made it all the way to Vienna, and the Moors ruled Spain for hundreds of years. I’m sure the europeans asked to be attacked and I doubt they would agree that Islam was a religion of peace, like I doubt christianity was a religion of peace either.

  210. 211 terry
    December 3, 2008 at 02:41

    rioting over cartoons and things tht the pope says . not one loud protest over the killings tht happen the other day.i don’t understand there faith.yet i hear people yelling tht why do they always bring out what religion the killers are. too me it seems tht this religion wants its followers to be call killers thts what i’ll call them….this is a great time for india and pakistani to come togather over the common ememy tht they both have.

  211. 212 steve
    December 3, 2008 at 03:18

    Look. the point is, is if someone thinks they are something, then we have to consider that to be the case, even if we don’t like what they do. Nobody has the right to say “but they are not a real christian” or “they are not a real muslim”. If the islamists think they are muslims, then they are. Other muslims must do something about it, just like if christians or jews or people who claimed they were, did bad stuff in the name of the religion, it’s the job of the rest to speak out.

    The catholic church condemns abortion clinics bombings, despite being opposed to abortion. Baruch Goldstein is only revered by a handful of Jews, and the rest recognize him for being a murderer and a terrorist. As a nominal Jew, I am ashamed to have been of the same religion as him.

  212. 213 Bert
    December 3, 2008 at 03:22

    Ali Khan, I’m simply saying that if Christians went and deliberately murdered countless numbers of people at random, in the name of their religion, no sane person in the west would take that as being remotely legitimate. Doesn’t matter what theoretical “cause” they invented to justify the action.

    When Timothy McVeigh brought down the federal building, no one but perhaps a few odd extremists had anything good to say about it. No excuses, no “he grew up in bad neighborhoods,” no “he was fighting a legitimate fight against causes x, y, or z,” nothing but condemnation.

    Did Catholics all over the world, for example, make excuses for the IRA? Nope.

    Sometimes, you just want to see condemnation of condemnable acts. Just because one condemns terrorism does not mean that one applauds the overly greedy in Wall Street. The two are different topics.

  213. 214 angela
    December 3, 2008 at 04:03

    Please, everyone, LISTEN TO STEVE!! He’s making the most sense of all of you.

    By the way, even in its most peaceful form, Islam is…….well, to put it mildly, not an acceptable way to live. Four wives?? I had a muslim boyfriend many years ago who told me this, and I still can’t believe this practice exists in modern times. Besides, in Muslim dominated African countries, female genital mutilation is commonly practiced and accepted. That may be an ancient practice that remained even after the advent of Islam. But they (the muslim majorities) are not doing every thing they can to stop it. (an average of 6,000 unwilling girls per day undergo this!!) Where’s the outrage among mullahs?

  214. 215 Tom (of Melbourne)
    December 3, 2008 at 04:47

    Accepting or not accepting that Islam has a problem with terrorism, leaders of the Islamic faith must unite and state their true position on violence and terrorism. Their apparent silence on these issues only serve to fuel distrust from the non-Islamic people, and provide grey spots for their faithfuls to commit atrocious acts against humanity.

    Unlike Catholicism, Islam has no central governing body to adjudicate religious concerns and to enforce universally binding decrees. So while 999 clerics may be preaching Islam as a religion of peace and tolerance, the 1000th may not and he would be enough to place the entire religion into global disrepute.

    Regarding Christian equivalent of be-headings by muslims in Iraq. Joan d’Arc was roasted to death on a stake, in public, after being found guilty by a religious court for heretic crimes.

  215. December 3, 2008 at 04:57

    i’m a muslim and i’ll accept that my religion has issues in its practice. despite its good teachings of love and peace, in practice there are always those who manipulate them for evil doings. this happens in every doctrine, teachings and religion there is in the world. the human factor guarantees that there’s nothing that’s perfect in this world. nothing is perfectly good, nothing is perfectly bad.

  216. 217 Lovemore
    December 3, 2008 at 05:21

    Muslims only speak out against an act of terror when they fear retaliation like they did after 9/11. It seems to me, Muslims quietly approve of these mass murders.

    Islam condones violence. Even wife battering is allowed in Islam

  217. 218 Zainab from Iraq
    December 3, 2008 at 06:02

    Always and always the same talk.. i see no one has changed.. no one reads different sources about Islam.
    Oh, people please why some of you are limited-minded and always using double-standards stratigy?!!!
    Islam was not, and is not, and will not be a religion of violence, and terrorism..
    Islam is an accurate system of life, it established the law for every action and reaction by individuals. Islam radiates light of freedom, beauty and perfection foreverrr.
    Look if we talk historically then it’s ok this is a historical story: The Prophet (S.A.W) and his followers remained in Mecca for several years calling on people with wisdom and gentle sermons to Islam..He and his followers suffered alot from Quraish.. yet Allah never ordered the Prophet (S.A.W) to use violence in return, but instead the order came to leave to Madina.. even after some years when the Prophet returned to Mecca, He said to its people: “Go… You are free”.
    As about this story of terrorism and violence.. it’s not other than “a hostile phenomenon” from the enemies of Islam to defame Islam.. but they will NEVER achieve their goal.

  218. 219 oscar carballo
    December 3, 2008 at 06:35

    Several opinions written by participants have been based on historical events, in order to judge the muslim religion as a violent one. However, we must bear in mind that the laws of societies have changed, what is accepted now was not accepted before and viceversa. War, conquests, colonization, invations, etc,. were justified by different means. Before, they were made in order to “save souls” and spread the faith, the good one. Now they are made to prevent “future terrorist threats “. But at the end, its real motivation is political- economical. We must avoid those simple reasons that associate muslim with terrorism. There’s nothing wrong in religions. Lack of tolerance is the problem everywhere. Everywhere.

  219. 220 Khan Ali
    December 3, 2008 at 08:19

    @ Steve
    So Europenas in their history are greater terrorist if they tried to get independence. Atleast thats what yur logic states. And by the way crusades are just an example of christian terrorism. Just as creation of Isreal an example of terrorism. I wonder if Israel could have been put in a plae like New england US or Newzealand instead of Palestine where people live for centruies. Btw if Vienna is still there and Europeans are alive its becasue of Muslims had they been like US they would have killed so many people that the nations would have been eliminated. Oh Btw History also tells us that British Attacked India and destryed Mughul Empire (MUSLIM) Russia, UK, played a giant part in destruction of Otoman Empire (MUSLIM). Now UK attacks Mughals (kills that kings sons ad put their head on plattter and give to king) iam sure that is not terrorism in fact you will justify it becasue of your bias. If you dont like Islam who is asking you to convert but you and everyone should accept the right of muslims to practice their religion. If you dont then its one against five. Oh Btw do you consider Isreal a terrorist state?

    @ Terry if you dont hear about it does not mean that it does not happen. Do you know that Muslims allover india have refure to bury their bodies and participate in their last rites.

  220. December 3, 2008 at 08:34

    I looked through Wikipedia’s list of terrorist organisations. I counted the Mujahidin al Khalq as non-Muslims because of my takfir against them. I did not count Holy Land, because it was a charity group. I did not count the Informal Anarchist Federation. I did not count the World Tamil Movement. I counted the Irish organisations, even though I consider theirs to be a legitimate struggle. However, I consider the struggle of Palestine to be legitimate, too; and I counted Palestinian groups, even Hizbullah. So I counted the Irish ones, too.

    There are 58 non-Islamist terrorist groups on that list that I know of. There are 50 Islamist terrorist groups on that list that I know of. It would seem that the number of non-islamist versus Islamist terrorist groups is approximately the same. Is it too much to ask that people check their facts before running their mouths?

    Islam developed a balance between social justice and peace and the use of force in order to maintain it. See my post here (timestamp June 26, 2008 at 12:55 pm) and below. The same is true of nearly every religion on this earth, except those that do not accept the use of force at all (i.e. Buddhism). The fact that a small percentage of Muslims use Islam as an excuse for their campaigns of slaughter does not make terrorism intrinsic to Islam any more than the slaughter in Iraq is to be tied to Christianity just because Bush claimed that God told him to attack, or Judaism is to be linked with the violence committed against innocent Palestinian civilians by illegal settler terrorists living on Palesitnian lands.

    Do various world religions have terrorists in their midst? Yes. Is that our problem alone, so that others can idly blame them on us? Certainly not. We can – and should – contribute to the solution. However, we should not be held solely responsible for the solution. The establishment of social justice and peace, including the dismantling of terrorist netwerks, is a global responsibility. We all share this responsibility together. And we should all be working on it together.
    -Pink
    See me After Hours

    2:40 eastern time (i.e. New York)

  221. December 3, 2008 at 08:58

    77 Will Rhodes December 2, 2008 at 7:14 pm
    Now is the time for the silent majority in the Islamic faith to speak up and denounce these horrific acts.

    If a tree falls in a forest, but no-one is around to hear it fall, did it make a sound?

    If a forest full of trees start jumping all about and having a party, but no-one is around to witness it, did anything happen?

    Thousands of Muslims – groups as well as individuals – from average laypeople to local leaders to high-ranking scholars to world leaders have denounced terrorism. Click here and scroll down. Their denunciations of terrorism are not printed in the New York Times. They are not broadcast on Clearchannel. They are not carried on CBS.

    These denunciations are issued from the pulpit, shouted at rallies, delivered as fatwas, and posted to the internet. Does the fact that they were not covered by national and international media mean that they do not exist? Does the fact that so many people are too lazy to get off their duffs and look them up mean that they never happened?
    -Pink
    See me After Hours

  222. 223 Scream
    December 3, 2008 at 11:12

    Muslims are now like public property, they are no different than football in a game, or i would like to say they are entertainers who dont want to be seen on screen killing or bombing the world(but we all will miss them if they stop doing such acts of inanity).
    Every individual finds it very holy to comment on Islam or Muslims and especially when it comes to judging them or trying to accuse someone.
    What is so alarming is the layer which covers their eyes and ears when they hear any such incident taken place by a Non-Muslim.

    What is the definition of Terrorism- One who kills innocent people to show dominance or spreads terror in hearts of people. There are more than 10 different organizations doing the same thing in the name of freedom ex: Muslims, Christians, Hindus etc. However what muslims terrorists fail to do is handle this in a more organizised and well planned manner. They don’t follow the politically correct stlye like George Bush or like Bal Thackery from India.
    There is no doubt that terrorism has been marketed by few muslims groups but this does’nt mean muslims should start agreeing that Islam is the cause of terror.
    Have we ever questioned a christian who killed thousands of innocent people in so many countries in the name of war or peace or stating that he was on a war against terrorism. This is no excuse to kill civilians. Where are the pictures of innocent people being killed by Christian troops?
    If you all have noticed you will observe that no news channel, or movie, or magazine shows you the real picture of civilians condition in Iraq or Aghanistan. Why do you post only interviews of terrorists like Osama?
    why is there no story covered of innocent women being raped and brutally murdered by soldiers?
    Will we all start blaming christianity just because few soldiers raped and killed innocent people in Iraq and afghanistan? No we should not do that.
    I think we all should just stop being God of the day of Judgement. If we cant stop terrorism let us atleast not spread hatredness amongst people and make them hate every muslim in the world. This will not eradicate terrorism instead will instill a environment of hatredness amongnst layman.

  223. 224 Bryan
    December 3, 2008 at 11:43

    I’m not sure what was wrong with this comment so I’m posting it again in case it was deleted in error:

    I listened to most of the show last night but when I wanted to catch what I missed on the podcast I see that it is not yet up. Are the technical guys on strike, or what?

    From what I heard of the show the Muslim guests spoke with one voice – denial of the evil inherent in Islam. You should have made an attempt at balance here. Why were apologists for Islamic violence given such a generous opportunity to dominate the discussion? Why were counter-arguments relegated to a brief e-mail or two and a brief opportunity for Robert Spencer to voice his point of view? Why not have Robert Spencer up against one Muslim academic? Badly done, BBC.

    Selena, I guess in your topsy turvy world of moral equivalence you’d like to see a little old lady who was caught in the middle of that Wallmart crush brought up on charges of murder. Or perhaps they should round up everyone who was in that crowd and charge them collectively with premeditated murder and terrorism based on Christian teaching? And what if there were Muslims in the crowd. Will they not be charged because “Islam is a religion of peace?”

  224. 225 uliimlibanon
    December 3, 2008 at 11:44

    What you should not forget in your discussion is that MOST victims of islamistic – terrorist attacks are muslims themselves! ( eg. Irak, Afghanistan and also here in Lebanon )
    I live in a country with muslim majority right now and somehow i think many have no idea of the people here. Most of them are nice, friendly and open to the world. They dont even think of it that they have anything in common with the terrorists thats why they dont see any reason to distance themselves of them or to apologize. And by the way there are many measues taken to fight terrorists and everyday muslim soldiers die fighting them.

  225. 227 steve
    December 3, 2008 at 13:45

    @ Khan

    No I don’t consider israel a terrorist state. Because you don’t like Israel doesn’t make it a terrorist state. Sorry buddy, but Jews have lived in Israel for thousands of years before Islam existed. Time to deal with reality. Can’t blame all your problems on the jews.

  226. 228 selena in Canada
    December 3, 2008 at 13:58

    Simple question, I would like an honest answer. Do you consider the people who attacked in mumbai to be terrorists?

    Now I wonder who is going to judge whether the answer is honest

    That is a gottcha question. Damned if you do and damned if you don’t.
    lol

    Terrorism/terrorist is a label. Why do we label people? The answer (honest?) is we put a name on people so that we can believe we are not like them. Label them and they are banished to that murky place where they are not considered human .

    So, there are the terrorists and then there are the people who do collateral damage. There are the killers and then there are the murderers.

    Our group has a cause that is right and proper and anything is allowed. When someone dies through our actions we, regrettably, have killed in protecting our property or families. When someone dies because of some other group’s actions they are murdered in cold blood.

    The other groups have a cause that is bad and evil so everything they do is bad and evil. The results are the same, loss of innocent lives, but that does not matter because our cause is the greatest.

    And the answer to your question is: I don’t label because I truly have no way of knowing what I would do in a similar situation. There are some posters who do know what they would do, however. They are posting here that they would, or their government (insert human soldiers) should, do the same things to the “insert any label you wish” as has been done unto them.

    At the present time, I don’t think that way.

  227. 229 selena in Canada
    December 3, 2008 at 14:03

    Some groups do protest loudly about the actions of their group.

    http://december18th.org/

  228. 230 sgill724
    December 3, 2008 at 14:09

    I completely agree. All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. Should muslims have to speak out against terrorists who share their religion? No. Should they, anyways? Yeah. Any chance to condemn hatred and evil should be taken.

    Oh, and Bryan? Personally, I’d love to see some of the people involved in the WalMart stampede brought to justice. Did you know that customers who were asked to leave because of the killing became irate and began screaming at tearful employees? Did you know that they stuck around, continued to shop and even pushed rescue workers out of the way? I don’t know if defiantly obstructing a rescue worker is a crime but if it’s not it probably should be. I can understand getting caught up in a crowd, but some of the actions that took place there were beyond deplorable and I’d love to see those people go down for them, though I’m sure it’s all but impossible.

  229. 231 steve
    December 3, 2008 at 14:10

    @ Selena

    As I figured, you don’t think the act of deliberately running around Mumbai, with guns, shooting people you knew were not muslim, not shooting people you found out were muslim, is terrorism.

    You equate trampling someone to death at a walmart, something horrible, but unintentional, with something intentional, were 200 people were killed vs. 1 person, despite the lack of intent, then you deflect the word intent, and says it excuses collateral damage….

    Are you suggesting if you felt a grievance you might go around town and blow people away? You cannot judge them? Sorry, I don’t care how badly I have a grievance, I’m not going to kill people over it. That you would consider it, it frightening. And how oppressed were these terrorists in Mumbai? I didn’t realize dirt poor people could afford guns, satellite maps or handheld GPS devices so they could easily find their targets?

    You should be ashamed of yourself Selena.

  230. 232 Wang Yiwei
    December 3, 2008 at 14:37

    @ Steve

    I don’t see how you could possibly conclude that I hate Jews or Christians. If this conclusion is not sound, there is no way you can represent anyone else to state what ‘we’ should do or shouldn’t do. You can only speak for yourself.

    Yes, I insist this topic is RUDE.

    Radical Muslim is as bad as radical Christian. The recipe for terrorism is clearly related to the social system rather than a particular religion. I believe BBC editors are more than capable of seeing through this logic. And yet they chose to pick on the Islamic religion.

  231. 233 steve
    December 3, 2008 at 14:42

    @ Wang

    Radical christians don’t kill people on a daily basis. They did in the past, but we live in the present, not the past. If we had time machines, then I would think radical christianity deserves more of a look, but since there are no time machines..

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7758432.stm

    32 dead in bombings in iraq.

  232. 234 Catherine
    December 3, 2008 at 15:00

    The religion itself is not what causes the terrorism. Like all religions, extremists can use it as a vehicle to achieve their own purposes. Why would someone like Osama Bin Laden enjoy killing thousands of innocent individuals? If you truly study the Koran, there is nothing to advocate such behavior. Why keep women repressed? Mohammed’s wife was well educated and he respected her. Nothing in the religion says that women should be treated so badly. Perhaps these boys are looking for a greater purpose in life and no one else is giving that to them except terrorist leaders. How sad.

  233. 235 Wang Yiwei
    December 3, 2008 at 16:04

    Steve,

    What you said is just another proof of my point: A specific religion is not the cause of violence.

    Christian changed with the democratisation, so can the Muslims. Picking on Islam DOES NOT help at all.

    You should be picking on the dictators in the Mideast, no matter how oil rich they are.

  234. 236 jawdat
    December 3, 2008 at 17:40

    no, im not ready to addmit islam has a problem with terrorism. terrorism has no religion, but is just unfortunately common in islam because the quran is a “very flexible book” that can be interpritted in many different ways

  235. 237 VictorK
    December 3, 2008 at 18:01

    @Catherine: have you actually read the Koran? Do you know anything about Muhammad’s life? Do you have even a superfical acquaintance with Islam’s 1,300 year history of Jihad? It’s almost incredible how apologists for Islam can make statements about it that are blatantly untrue (the Koran commands violence against non-Muslims, Muhammad was a man who ordered the deaths of his enemies and had a divine revelation, also in the Koran, that said he was entitled to a share of the booty whenever his followers successfully attacked, killed and robbed non-Muslims, most Muslim countries in existence are so as the result of successful Jihad, i.e. invasion, conquest and the gradual extinction of the indigenous culture and religion – Afghanistan, Iraq and ‘Palestine’ included).

    @Yang: the assertion that because Christian societies developed in the direction of openness and freedom, Muslim societies can too is just that, an assertion. What people who make this claim overlook is that Christianity is radically different from Islam, and the free, democratic and civilised qualities of Western countries are not just natural developments, but developments rooted in Christian culture & values. There’s no reason to suppose that non-Christian societies can evolve into free and democratic societies to the same extent, or at all. Another of reality’s painful truths.

  236. 238 Peter liu
    December 3, 2008 at 18:23

    Muslim who speak out are under peer’s pressure not to speak up. Also some crazy iman might issue a fatwa to have him killed . Muslims don’t have freedom to speak.

  237. 239 robert a
    December 3, 2008 at 21:24

    There are two ideas that the western mind has to wrap its thinking around. (1)Islam is the only known religion that does not have some form of the golden rule. (2) Christ died for his beliefs-Mohammed made everyone else die for his.

  238. 240 Tom D Ford
    December 3, 2008 at 21:28

    Let’s remind ourselves that the Conservative Christian Republican Bush declared a New Crusades and then made up a phony pretext for invading and occupying Iraq. I suggest that Conservative Christians have a terrorism problem also even if they use the most modern military to implement their terrifying “Shock and Awe” policies!

  239. 241 JosephCRProgram
    December 4, 2008 at 02:25

    When we address these topics on; Islam, Terrorism, Extremism, Fundamentalism, Religion, first and foremost we should make the assumption that we are evaluating on “what has impacted fundamentalism and militant extremism” in the modern world, during modernity, i.e., Mumbai, London, NYC, Madrid, not do a historical analysis on Religion, Christianity, and the origins and expansion of Islam to Europe, or consider the dynamics of how wars were fought or people of different religions lived during the pre modern era, such as the Ottoman domain. We should not base our interpretations of terrorism, fundamentalism or there relevance to Islam based on how Religious wars were conducted during the earliest centuries of Islam, 7th, 8th and 9th centuries. Modernity and the formation of the nation state, has completely changed those dynamics!

    The people that fail to understand the riots which were triggered by the Danish newspaper cartoons, or comments made by the Pope, criticizing Islam as a harsh or violent religion, fail to realize the meaning of Islam, the Prophet Mohammed and his message, or the Quran to Muslims…they do not know that Muslims who practice true Islam, are impacted daily, continuously by the practice of Islam — it is a completely different way of life, and lifestyle than Christianity and Catholicism. A life of selflessness, countless sacrifices and of enduring many hardships. As one of the comments suggested, “it’s not a matter of reading the Quran, or with drawing your own conclusions on the Quran.” There are 4 principles schools of Islam, and 5 pillars of Islam that every good Muslim must adhere to. Islam is a religion of interpretations and revelations; each principle school of Islam has a different interpretation. The Quran does not advocate violence against the non-Muslim, but conservatism and salafist interpretations may attempt to justify the violence by citing scripts dating back to the 7th century, this is certainly not mainstream Islam!
    It is not surprising that the Danish Cartoons and the comments of the Pope, and other disrespectable public acts that have directly referenced the Quran, Mohammed the Prophet or Islam would lead to a modern day uproar among the Muslim communities and even lead to violence…

    We associate fundamentalism, extremism to Islam, due to the nature of how “true Islam” profoundly affects a person or conservative Islamist’s way of life. It is also do to the fact that Muslims globally are perceived to be the subordinate culture to Western ideology and to Christianity and Judaism. In India, the Hindus are the dominant culture.
    The dominant cultural has the power and privileged in our global society. This adds to the tensions and sways extremism and fundamentalism to revert to violence and terrorism…

  240. December 4, 2008 at 03:10

    most of the terror that has happened, muslims are not responsible for this, as this Tamil tigers or other religions do and they describe themselves as muslims. they do this in order to humiliate the islam.

  241. 243 Una
    December 4, 2008 at 04:29

    Well said Hisham.
    Correction for Bifjoerice – Catholics and Protestants were not killing each other in the name of religion. That struggle was fundamentally related to economic issues and equal rights for two communities living in a small corner of Ireland, one of whom was Catholic and the other Protestant. There were very many peace marches condemning the violence. Suggest you google ‘nobel prize for peace’ and you will find out who the leaders of these peace movements were!

    Most of what we call terrorists come from failed, corrupt and dysfunctional states – young men (mainly) with no foreseeable future get sucked into false ideologies. The devil makes work for idle hands.

    The catastrophic foreign policies of US and allies for the past eight years has contributed to immense alienation and and sense of grievance even amongst the most moderate Muslims.

    However, moderate voices on all sides must be heard and in the same way that thousands of ordinary people (mainly Christian people) protested in the winter of 2003 against the proposed invasion of Iraq and subsequently about Guantamano.

    The blame game doesn’t achieve very much. We must address the causes!

  242. 244 K. Comoglu NJ, USA
    December 4, 2008 at 05:51

    There is no space for terorism in any religion, at least pretty sure that not in Islam. Jihad has no corelation with killing innocent people and terrorism, neither Qur-an.

    I advice everyone to study some history. You will easily find out the “master of the puppets” which is so close to us all. And it is not a coincidence that such a topic has arised in BBC.

    People are people. Regardless of their religion, race or nationality; there are Good and Bad people. May God let us be among the Good ones.

  243. 245 DENNIS
    December 4, 2008 at 06:40

    I think that Muslims should accept that Islam has problems with
    terrorism, Because the problems will never been solved until they realise that!

  244. 246 rick
    December 4, 2008 at 09:02

    Zainab
    ‘Islam is an accurate system of life, it established the law for every action and reaction by individuals. Islam radiates light of freedom, beauty and perfection foreverrr.’
    Here are some things that disprove this statement.
    Slavery – Saudi Arabia
    Honor killings – Jordan
    Stoning children to death for the crime of being raped.-Somalia
    State execution of children – Iran
    Female genital mutilation – Africa
    Selling children into marraige – Yemen
    Death sentence for changing religion – Egypt
    Public whipping for drinking alcohal Saudi Arabia
    Rioting and world wide distruction of property for publishing a cartoon about Mohammed
    These are just a few of the ‘beautiful and perfect’ things that happen in Islamic nations.

  245. 247 Asif Saleem
    December 4, 2008 at 17:20

    i Think Islam has no relation with terrorism at all y becuse it is the right of the people to live as they want to in their country then whts America doing in Iraq and Afghanistan people living there wants freedom from them and U know the difference between patroit and terrorist The person who is fighting for his land and for his rights he will b patriot for his country and the same person will b called as terrorist by the people his fighting against with.THe Religion Islam means peace and in Islam killing a living being means killing of humanity so how could A Muslim when he is not allowed to kill an innocent person could do a terrorist act.THe major Probelm is with word JAHAD i think ISlam says about Jahad tht when ever circumstances appaeard such as there is danger to ISlam stability u would risk ur life in order to save Islam and fight against those people who are against u SO the problem is where there is a enemy to harm ISlamic socity.
    Leave muslims alone in peace u will not b harmed as well
    Many antiMuslims groups have become ACtive and they are doing such terrorist acts only to harm Islam and diverting the views of other people against ISlam

  246. 248 Asif Saleem
    December 4, 2008 at 17:33

    My bro u have found those wrong Acts in ISlamic contries but U must know Islam has forbidden these acts In ISlam drinking Alcohal is strictly forbidden and all those acts u have mentioned are also forbidden SO problems are not with islamic countries there are Bad people in every country \
    In AMerica MAjaor rape cases are filed
    IN iraq ABu Garib jail u have seen AMerican Soldiers treating with Iraqi prisoners
    SO my bro problem is not with Islam its with people who violates islamic laws and all these acts are totally illegal and i also condem it

  247. 249 Peter liu
    December 4, 2008 at 18:13

    Thais cannot criticise their king. To deny the holocaust is a crime. To insult the Prophet your life is threaten. We sure hate to be on the wrong end of things.

  248. 250 Case Veldhuisen
    December 4, 2008 at 21:11

    The propaganda machine has switched to overdrive with the incidents in Mumbai over the last weekend. Its almost as though the media were just waiting for an incident to continue its maligning of Islam. Tuesday, Dec. 2 The BBC-NPR program, “World Have Your Say” just jumped at the chance to malign Islam including caller after caller who made the untrue claim that the world has yet to hear any condemnation of the the events in Mumbai nor even of the 9-11 attacks on the world Trade Center in New York and the Pentagon in Virginia. Similarly they complained about the recent events in Mumbai.

    Here is a heads up to all the caller and the two networks: Islamic counties and their leaders, Muslim scholars and worldwide Islamic organizations have all condemned both Mumbai incidents and the WTC-Pentagon attacks as well as many other similar incidents that have been branded as terrorism. The fact that US and UK media have failed to report these condemnations does not make it true that Muslims worldwide have continually condemned these incidents. I recently sent out an article from Arab News a Saudi Arabian based publication from Islamic leaders, scholars and Islamic organizations condemning this laest incident. The article can be found at:

    http://www.arabnews.com/?page=7&section=0&article=116794&d=29&m=11&y=2008

    or, I have attached an earlier email I sent to hopefully blunt some of the anti-Islamic nonsense I knew would be coming.

    Then yesterday there was an op-ed in the New York Times by Tom Friedman a strong supporter of Zionism. In it, he warms up all the old issues about never hearing about anything but condemnation from Muslims but he wants more. He wants street demonstrations before he’ll accept that Muslims are really sorry for what has happened. Here is URL to that article:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/03/opinion/03friedman.html?_r=1&scp=9&sq=december+03+2008&st=nyt

    I find it particularly interesting that Friedman wants common people to demonstrate against the Mumbai events and says if they could demonstrate against the Danish anti-Islamic cartoons they should certainly demonstrate against what extremists have done in the name of Islam in Mumbai. Of course I have to wonder why the random murder of innocent individuals particularly children in the “Occupied Territories” are not the target of protests in Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, or New York City by “Zionists of good will” or even Americans who want to condemn the killing of innocents in Gaza or the West Bank whenever Israeli IDF members feel compelled to invade too perform a targeted assassination or when the issue is to “punish” the Palestinians for engaging in some sort of aggressive Palestinian behavior.

    Its pretty clear to me that according to Friedman and friends, Islamic extremist action must be punished severely but that collective punishment ND extreme measures such as starvation by withholding food imports, holding the critically ill at checkpoints while “clearing documents,” shooting of schoolchildren and others including foreigners, beating Palestinian farmers or destroying their houses when land is wanted for Jews, can be brushed aside with the old oppressors refrain of “they brought it on themselves” apparently for resisting theft, objecting to the withholding of medical care, destruction of their houses and other property with a few minutes notice, etc.

    Friedman’s double standards and the media policy of the BBC and most of the US media are totally reprehensible.

  249. December 4, 2008 at 23:31

    I think this question should be rephrased as does Islam have a problem with the West?

    It does indeed and has one that reaches back well before 9/11, and Bush’s war on terrorism hasn’t helped one little bit. His and Blair’s illegal intervention in Iraq has inflamed feeling and just created greater regional tension as a consequence of activities and the incalculable number of Iraqi civilian dead and injured. No one has acces to an official or unofficial number, because when asked Lt. General Tommy Franks invasion commander is on record as saying “we don’t do body counts.” If I was a Moslem, at the very least I would think why and be a mite suspicious as to why the Coalition is not comfortable with releasing any figures at all, and exactly what is it that they have to hide?
    Regional conflicts and tensions have been established for 50 years or more in the Arabian peninsula, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Oman, Yemen, Palestine etc, Egypt, Algeria, Sudan, Ethiopia, Libya, Kenya, Nigeria, Bali, Indonesia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, Kashmir. These are nothing new but the majority of mainstream western media will have you think so.

    Just think Americans who are of a certain belief system, probably wouldn’t be giving this subject matter a second thought if were it not for 9/11. Let’s be honest would you? Now the world’s problem’s have visited you in no uncertain terms, (9/11) now YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THE WORLD! I think too many of you are only concerned when it directly affects you. Other times you couldn’t care less. We’ve lived with this threat a lot longer than any of you in the US. We’re use to the daily reality. And don’t say the IRA are a different breed of terrorist. You tell that to the numerous people who’ve suffered at their hands, confined conflict or not.

  250. 252 Bryan
    December 5, 2008 at 15:03

    Case Veldhuisen December 4, 2008 at 9:11 pm,

    Friedman is not “a strong supporter of Zionism.” He is a typical lefty journalist who has written articles highly critical of Israel. Do you really think the PC New York Times would employ a supporter of Israel? But he is right about Pakistan and the incredible lack of protest against Islamic terror from Muslims.

    You, “wonder why the random murder of innocent individuals particularly children in the “Occupied Territories” are [sic] not the target of protests in Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, or New York City.” Well, you are partly correct here. Palestinian terrorist murders of Israeli civilians, including children, lead to no protests at all among the left wing intellectuals of the West. On the other hand, if a “settler” dares to add another room to his house, those same intellectuals go livid with rage and organise boycotts of Israeli produce.

    You should take the occasional breath while pumping out propaganda. The second last paragraph of yours has almost set a record length here. Thousands of Palestinians, including terrorists wounded in clashes with the IDF, have been treated, and continue to be treated, in Israeli hospitals. Israel does not “shoot schoolchildren” and the soldier who shot Tom Hurndall is serving a lengthy prison term. There is no “starvation” of the people of Gaza. Israel blocks aid convoys after the terrorists fire their Kassam rockets at Israeli civilians. Then Israel lets them through again. No doubt you turn a blind eye to the resumption of aid. I suppose you think it should just be business as usual while Palestinian terror continues unabated.

    You must get your information from the textbooks they use to indoctrinate Palestinian schoolchildren – the ones with Israel removed from maps of the area.

  251. 253 ritchie
    December 6, 2008 at 07:21

    Who provoke terrorism?

  252. December 6, 2008 at 14:36

    Disturb,

    1.I wonder CIA has been trying to assinate Chavev and Fidel,,many Cubans and Venezuelian pay the prices,with bombs,and sanction

    Do we consider Americans, CIA as Christian or terrorists?

    2.Accusing another religion for wrongdoing of others,is never going to end.

    3.United nation must be relevant,If not public funds,is just put to a waste.

    4.Wake up.All this are just corporate terrorists.Nothing to do with Jews,Muslim,Christian,Hindu,Buddhist or whatever.

    5.Any good religion practice was hijacked for some individuals,who are greed with money.power and selfishness.

    Shame we all,what a world.

  253. 255 Syed Hasan Turab
    December 6, 2008 at 19:47

    Histry of injustice & crime against humanity will provide perfect answer to those who blaime Islam & Muslims. Struggle for freedom & basic human rights may not be understand as crime, this why I request to Isriel & India reviw there behaviour living in prevailing human society, as old timer criminal’s support may not provide any satisfactory answere to sufferors.
    Existance of UN Security Counsil it self sound like double standard, injustice & crime against humanity.

  254. 256 DENNIS
    December 7, 2008 at 03:53

    I think that Muslims have the duty this time to accept that Islam, has problems with terrorism….

  255. 257 pakicharansadhu
    December 7, 2008 at 16:26

    to mr.syed hasan turab

    muslims are not the only people who has suffered injustice, but never ever they have killed innocent people to justify their vengeance.. minorities in pakistan and bangladesh (there are other muslim countries as well as bad) have hardly any rights, do not forget they left those two countries in hordes long after the country was divided, they do not bomb the muslims…pakistan has hardly any minorities left, you have forced them to leave, like your brothers did in Kashmir.. and by crying about injustice, you are justifying the terror… you muslims are so intolerant people that any criticism about your religion will invite death.. little do you remember that for centuries religion have been criticised and people have developed because of that.. In UK two hundred years ago, people were fined for not attending sunday church.. but not any more…

    You muslims never criticise yourselves, and by not protesting against the perpretors of killing, you give them silent support.. and do not forget, they will turn against you when they have no one else…

    you muslims are obsessed with religion.. the glue of religion could not hold pakistan together, and it will not hold the remaining pakistan.. it will happen, only a matter of time now… the drawings are complete, the plan will be executed once the preparation is done… just wait and see…

  256. December 8, 2008 at 02:47

    To some muslims terrorism is in keeping in their beliefs with islam. Innocent men, women children are killed by the terrorists who hope to go to heaven when they carry out such dispicable terrorists acts it can be assumed these followers are brainwashed to carry out such acts by their clerics who preach this insanity. Countries that give shelter to these clerics should put them into prison and horsewhip them, for they themselves continue to live in safety without any regrets.
    Moderate clerics should continually speak loud and clear that they are against such terrorists acts and state killing innocent people, will for sure land them into hell.

  257. 259 Syed Hasan Turab
    December 8, 2008 at 07:09

    Pride Roman Catholic production was “HITLER”, do you allow muslim’s to think in your way.
    Pride Roman soldier’s killed over 100 thousand Muslims in Spain, even destrory the Muslims graveyards & crushed Muslim’s bones on the street, do you allow muslim’s to think in your way.
    Gontonamabay, Abu Greeba & conversion of Afghanistan in to Drug state, do you allow muslims in your way.
    Obiously we are uneducted to think negative while living in prevailing society.
    No doubt your histry of crime against humanity is matching with Hindoo India.

  258. 260 Syed Hasan Turab
    December 8, 2008 at 18:30

    Mr.Pakicdransadlher:=
    You are the only one who dont feel shamed on Indian human desaster, every day more then 1000 people killed in India in sectrian & domestic crime’s.
    As far as Issue of Bangladesh is concerned this was all pride Indian human desaster production.
    The principal partner Former USSR already paid the price & this is the time for India.
    As far as Kashmir in concerned Pakistan never landed his forces in that land & UN passed a Refrendom resolution against Indian Occupation & Govt of India is avoiding UN demanded resolution from last 60 years.
    As far as Minorities are concerned they have there represantion in Pakistan national Assembly & Senate according to there population. I know atleast ten members are presant in both houses.
    On the top of that Justic Bhagwan Das is serving in Supreem Court of Pakistan.
    If Kashmari dont have tolerance none of the minority exposed in Kashmir, if you are considering 800 Thousand Indian Army as minority in Kashmir yes every one admit that.
    Protecting evil acts of any Govt itself is a crime against humanity.

  259. 261 Ibrahim (Baghdad)
    December 8, 2008 at 20:02

    I don’t see why should any *Muslim* condemn what happened in Mumbai. I don’t see that the tragedy of Mumbai has anything to do with Islam, not to mention that the link between the attackers who committed this crime and Islam was pretty much a media creation. I have not heard of any clear statement from the attackers that would state their motives, agenda, ideology or even their demands. From the first day of the attacks, the media says the attackers are from a group called something al-mujahidin and jump to conclusions of them being extremist and of course, Muslims.

    The word “mujahidin” is basically an Arabic word (singular “mujahid”) which means: a person who tries his best to do something that is normally not a very easy thing to do and the result should be a good thing for him and for all (e.g. Islam asks you to quit *bad* habits; the act of trying hard to quit these habits, like smoking for instance, would be “jihad”–a struggle to achieve the best. The word exists even before Islam.

    Nevertheless, let’s assume that those attackers had declared that they are “Muslims” or even remotely belong to an “Islamic” movement whatsoever. I think everybody is free to say whatever he wants to say, but it doesn’t mean it’s true. If a religion says: You should do A and B but you should never do C or D for you will be out; in such case, if a man does only A and B he would be a follower to that religion, however, if he does A, B and C, he would not. That religion should not be judged for him committing C; he was already out regardless what he claims.

    As a Muslim, I don’t see myself in any way linked to the people who committed the crime of Mumbai; moreover, I don’t find anything in my religion or anybody’s religion that would justify what they have done. In fact, it would be quite insulting to me, to my religion and belief to condemn (as a Muslim) what they have done, because I will be establishing a non existing link between them/their act and my religion. Perhaps I am entitled to condemn as humankind what other “humankind” committed, but not only because I am a Muslim. This is not Islam.

    Anybody is free to believe in whatever he wants, and people are free to interpret these beliefs the way they want to. Even for a Muslim, the Koran tells you the two ways, the right and wrong (A, B, C and D), but there will be absolutely nothing to force you to take this way and leave the other; it should be your own judgment coming from your own head; you have totally the right to choose. This is why, according to Islam, *you* and only you will have to face the consequences of your life decisions in the other life.

    The fourth Caliph in Islam, Ali ibn Abi Talib, had said: Don’t judge a fact/belief through the people who claim following it, instead, you should first get to know the fact/belief itself (by yourself), only then you will be able to recognize who are truly its followers and who are not.

    Another thought that I would like to discuss: If we change the name of “Islam” to say “Tree”, would you think such kind of criminal acts will be linked to Islam or the Tree?! Would they call them Islamic extremists or would they start calling them the Tree extremists?

    The history is full of incidents of brutal killing and terrorizing innocent people made in the name of religion and other things, but most of the time they had been committed for other reasons. If only we had had the kind of technology and media coverage we have these days just in the first half of the 20th century, we would not have to discuss the “Tree” religion right now! Don’t you think?

    Thank you,
    Ibrahim

  260. 262 Jennifer
    December 8, 2008 at 22:09

    Re: Tree religion

    I have become very curious about tree religion myself. I found this website to be very informative and interesting: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

    To pass the buck by saying Christians do it, Catholics do it, deflects responsibility from the issue. The same goes for saying that a small number of people do not represent an entire community. These individuals, whether practicing tree religion accurately or not, are responsible for taking the lives of so many innocent people. Everyone who is associated with tree religion should step up and accept responsibility for those who are taking the lives of innocent people because they are doing what they are doing in the name of tree religion.

    From my experience, while some don’t support the actions of terrorists by participating directly, they seem to participate by their inaccurate views of people from the “west” as well as their ability to look the other way while these things happen and even by trying to validate it by stating that terrorists are victims. The true victims are the people who loose their lives.

  261. January 2, 2009 at 20:51

    The problem is not with Islam, the problem is with illiteracy and just being mad about your power. The crusaders when they invaded jerusalem in the first crusade killed thousands of muslims not even sparing christians who were brown. So by that logic we can assume that christanity is also a violent religion ? may be we can. and yet when israel kills about 500 people in 2009, then nobody cares about that ? you guys still have problem with islam. well humans are mortals and whether you are a muslim, christian, hindu, jew or an athiest you will die one day and we will all know the truth then :)

    So I really dont care what you guys think about Muslims and Islam, I will just be good with people. and will always fight for what is right.

  262. 264 ANIL TEWARI
    January 27, 2009 at 13:23

    It is better for liberal muslims to accept this reality as early as possible so that we can get best products of Islam in future ,otherwise I fear these terrorist will dig the grave for Islam.


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