24
Oct
08

Blank Page no 30

Hello, this is Helen. First of all, I saw that there were some questions about clock changes over the weekend. Here in the UK we switched from “summer time” back to GMT (which means it gets dark an hour earlier – winter is on its way). For this week, the show will be broadcast at 5-6pm GMT for the US, and 6-7pm GMT for the rest of the world. In America, the clocks change next weekend, and from then on we’ll switch to our winter schedule which is 1 hour, from 6-7pm GMT, for the entire world. Confused?

Syria has condemned a US helicopter attack inside its territory, which it says killed eight civilians. If confirmed, the raid would be the first known attack by US forces inside Syrian territory. And Pakistani officials say a suspected US military strike has killed twenty people, including a Taleban commander. So far, there has been no official US response to either event. But, if confirmed, is it acceptable to disregard national boundaries in the fight on terror? Or is this precisely the kind of action that stokes anti-American sentiment?

A court in Niger is expected to rule today on a case of alleged slavery, which could have implications across West Africa. Hadijatou Mani says she was sold at the age of 12 and was forced into ten years of domestic and agricultural work, as well as being raped at the age of 13 and forced to bear the man’s children. Slavery was outlawed in Niger five years ago, but the government is being accused of doing too little to bring the tradition to an end. Is it enough to outlaw slavery? Or is more required to change deep-rooted traditions?

And the Tibetan spiritual leader, the Dalai Lama, has said that he has given up on his attempts to persuade China to grant greater autonomy to Tibet. Does this represent a victory for China’s hardline approach to Tibet, which was evident in the crackdown on pro-Tibetan demonstrations earlier this year? What does this mean for the future of Tibet - and indeed the Dalai Lama?


340 Responses to “Blank Page no 30”


  1. 1 Robert
    October 24, 2008 at 19:18

    Thanks Kate.

    I hope you’ve all had a good week, and are looking forward to a good conversation this weekend.

    Now over to you guys, what do you all want to talk about

  2. 2 Robert
    October 24, 2008 at 19:21

    So OPEC cut production today yet the price still falls.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/3253808/Gloom-for-motorists-ahead-as-analysts-predict-more-oil-production-cuts-from-OPEC.html

    Has the world order changed? Who will arise in the coming years as being able to dictate how the world functions?

  3. October 24, 2008 at 19:22

    So OPEC cut production today yet the price still falls.

    Greedy Idiots…. I hope they feel this recession and feel it hard.

  4. 4 Steve
    October 24, 2008 at 19:34

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/south_yorkshire/7688929.stm

    The mother allowed her child to be killed and won’t serve any jail for it. Let me guess how many love letters he’ll get while in jail..

    Again, this relates to the low self esteem in society. A little girl is dead now because of it.

    Also, in other news, the Mccain campaign worker who claims she was beat up by Obama supporters, admitted she fabricated the story. More narcisisistic personality disorder… Got in the news by falsely alleging a crime occured. disgusting.

  5. 5 Steve
    October 24, 2008 at 19:40

    http://kdka.com/local/attack.McCain.Bloomfield.2.847628.html

    There it is. I feel bad about providing a link, because it’s giving her the attention she craved.

  6. 6 Jessica in NYC
    October 24, 2008 at 19:48

    @ Steve

    http://kdka.com/local/attack.McCain.Bloomfield.2.847628.html

    “Also, in other news, the Mccain campaign worker who claims she was beat up by Obama supporters, admitted she fabricated the story. More narcisisistic personality disorder… Got in the news by falsely alleging a crime occured. disgusting.”

    I have not clicked on the link, but dear what-ever-you-hold-most-dear, just when we thought politics had sunk to ti’s lowest. *SIGH*

  7. 7 Jessica in NYC
    October 24, 2008 at 19:49

    @ Brett

    RE OPEC

    “Greedy Idiots…. I hope they feel this recession and feel it hard.”

    You are cracking me up today. PS— me TOO!

  8. 8 Jennifer
    October 24, 2008 at 19:52

    Re: Baby’s father given life sentence

    I think he got what he deserved, but the mother should have been given the same. The article states that in the weeks leading up to the event the little girl sustained fractures to her arms and legs. :( The little girl’s mom should have protected her daughter. My guess is that the father also abused the mother.

  9. 9 Robert
    October 24, 2008 at 19:54

    Did anybody catch Ros on TV today? I was at work and so missed it. Anyway we can watch it online?

  10. 10 steve
    October 24, 2008 at 19:55

    @ Jennifer

    And this connected to self esteem. If that mother had any self esteem, she wouldn’t have been with an abusive man, and though that child wouldn’t have been born without that man, if there was another child, the child wouldn’t have been killed by that man. Her low self esteem led her to make incredibly poor decisions, which resulted in her child being killed.

    I agree, she should have had a lot more criminal liability, despite any abuse she might have had. There’s simply no excuse for what happened, and making excuses will only allow things like this to happen in the future.

  11. 11 Jennifer
    October 24, 2008 at 20:00

    Re: Girl making up attack

    I can’t believe someone would be such an egghead! There is enough dirt on Obama people don’t need to make stuff up. Jeesh!!

  12. 12 steve
    October 24, 2008 at 20:02

    @ Jennifer

    An attack on a Mccain supporter, even if it were real, still wouldn’t reflect at all on Obama.

    however, the real reason she did this is for attention. As I’ve stated countless times in the past, people, especially young people, will do anything for attention. There will be more fake crimes, more mass shootings, anything to get their “15 minutes”, and they lack consciences. Look up narcissistic personality disorder and you’ll see what society is going to face. Combine it with no self esteem, and we’re really in big trouble.

  13. 13 Jennifer
    October 24, 2008 at 20:14

    @ Steve

    I think self esteem played it’s part in addition to maybe other factors….maybe lack of financial resources, threats, etc played a part too. Still, any person who was willing to allow their child to be abused doesn’t have much of a backbone.

    ——–

    Depending on what the attacker did; it could. Now, it’s just going to be a black stain……

  14. 14 Lubna
    October 24, 2008 at 20:19

    Hi gang and HELLO my Precious Robert in Angola ! :-)… Well guys, I have been watching “Friends” earlier today and I thought I’d ask all of you guys this very simple question : What are your favourite TV shows ?! And why do you like watching them ?! I often prefer watching medical drama and comedy TV shows, just like “Friends”, “Grey’s Anatomy”, “Dr House”, “ER”, “My wife and kids”… Those kind of stuff are very popular in Iraq and the Arab world… Unfortunately there aren’t American medical drama TV shows featuring a pediatrician as the leading character, are there ?! Oh man, its just that my mood is “pink” today, which is pretty unusual ! :-)… With my love… Yours forever, Lubna in Baghdad…

  15. 15 Jens
    October 24, 2008 at 20:23

    jennifer,

    the lovely republicans have now removed my obama sign three times……

  16. 16 steve
    October 24, 2008 at 20:30

    @ Jens

    Possibly, or it might have been neighbors who don’t want to see any signs. If you have a homewowners association, you might be in violation of one of their rules.

  17. 17 Jennifer
    October 24, 2008 at 20:34

    @ Jens

    We have some Obama signs here but like 10x more McCain/Palin signs. ;) No no to removing anyone’s sign just because you don’t like it. That’s a cheap shot. I’m sorry someone did that…..get another one! I have one you could have but you wouldn’t like it :)

  18. 18 Robert
    October 24, 2008 at 20:37

    Jens

    Drunk students on the way home? If it ain’t nailed down it will go missing.

  19. 19 Jens
    October 24, 2008 at 20:52

    steve/Robert,

    we allow signs and ONLY Obama signs were taken down. all the McCain signes are still out there. People actually saw them steal the signs.

    i life in the boonies, there are no drunk students out there. maybe drunk black baers and mountain lions….

  20. 20 Robert
    October 24, 2008 at 20:57

    Lubna

    I like Science Friction shows. Favourite at the moment would be between Stargate, Doctor Who or Torchwood. Generally the stuff that doesn’t take itself too seriously.

    The reason, escapism I suppose. Getting to watch something not tied down by what we can do and can achieve now. Seeing what a writer can produce when their are no restriction. Looking at the what ifs about what humanity might become. I also find the technobabble that it can produce to be some of the funniest comedy lines on TV today.

  21. 21 Jessica in NYC
    October 24, 2008 at 21:06

    Jens,

    Hang the signs inside all our windows. They cannot steal them this way and it will annoy those church going hypocrite thieves. You should also hang some kind of religions sigh that says according to god stealing is wrong and they’re going to hell.

    I already have my Obama outfit for when I go south. I don’t like caps, but I have an Obama cap, t-shirt, water mug and buttons and I will be wearing e-v-e-r-y-w-h-e-r-e.

  22. 22 Robert
    October 24, 2008 at 21:14

    Not very environmentally friendly, or practical, or cheap, but I so want one

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/british-team-to-build-first-1000mph-car-969770.html

  23. 23 Jens
    October 24, 2008 at 21:15

    Jess,

    if i hang them up in the windows nobody will see them since my house is behing a lot of trees and shrub.

    i send an e-mail aabout it, admittingly in a very academic, but patriot way (intentionally). one republican told me i do not need to lecture him…..well at least he read it the right way and was offended enough to reply….

  24. 24 Lubna
    October 24, 2008 at 21:25

    Hey my Precious Robert… Thanks a million for your response to my question… Although I have never heard of those TV shows you mentioned before (are they American or British ?!), but I am familiar with your taste… Have you ever heard of “Star Gate” before ?! I used to like it alot when I was a teenager, although there wasn’t pretty much comedy in it, but it contained some pretty interesting themes about friendship and team-work, in addition of course to science fiction stuff… Anyway, my taste has changed completely after 2003 (I just cannot get enough of politics can I ?! :-)… With my love… Yours forever, Lubna in Baghdad…

  25. 25 Lubna
    October 24, 2008 at 21:33

    Oops Robert !!! It looks like “Star Gate” is already on the list of your favourite TV shows !!! :-)… I am toooooooo embarrassed !!! Anyway, it’s your fault, you wrote it Stargate, and because of the astigmatism thing I skipped it, you should’ve written it “Star Gate” so that I can catch it ! :-)… Anyway, I have never heard of “Doctor Who” before, seriously ! With my love… Yours forever, Lubna in Baghdad…

  26. 26 DENNIS
    October 24, 2008 at 21:36

    Hi everyone!

    To answer Robert [in Angola] Question about my week…
    LONG, 1 class ended and picked up 2 more this week and
    1 more Next Tuesday..
    ********************
    Welcome to the moderating table: Robert in Angola and
    Lili in Cairo
    *************

    Re: Financial Crisis
    it has been a long week for the markets! and for everyone else
    involve…….

    Re: Ros on the TV
    if anyone has a link for the story….send it up to the
    desk…

    [SORRY FOR THE LONG POST]

    Dennis

  27. 27 Robert
    October 24, 2008 at 21:42

    Lubna,

    Stargate Really enjoyed watching it. Although it is sad that the SG1 series ended this summer, and the Atlantis spin off finishes next year. There is a new series sometime next year, but not much information is available yet.

    Dr Who is a British series that started back in the 60’s. The Doctor is an alien who travels through time and space in a machine that resembles an old British police box, that is bigger on the inside than the outside. The series ended in the 80’s but was revived about 4 years ago. The doctor and his enemies (the Daleks, the Cyberman, the Master) are now iconic British TV figures.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/

    Torchwood is a spin off from Dr Who. It’s based in a covert organization in Cardiff (BBC budget cuts forced production from locations outside of London for a while, hence the slightly random location). Its job is to hid aliens that appear on earth, defeat invasion attempts and find alien technology etc.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/torchwood/

  28. 28 DENNIS
    October 24, 2008 at 21:45

    Re: To Lubna’s question about TV Shows…
    i like talk shows, and one of the favourite shows, is the are you being served? on the bbc in the 1970’s [and] many others…

    Re: THE WOMAN AND THE ACCUSATIONS ABOUT THE MCCAIN’S SIGN….
    this woman has SEVERE mental health problems and needs immediate treatment….

    Dennis

  29. 29 Robert
    October 24, 2008 at 21:53

    One question I have for those in the US. Back in the mid 90’s the incumbent UK Conservative party had a really bad election it was obvious that it was going to before the results. The party then spent nearly a decade tearing itself to pieces between its many internal factions.

    If as predicted by many they lose, are the Republicans about to do the same? Will McCain be simply rewritten off as a singular bad choice and the party will move on? Or will differing sides within the party try and push for reform of some sort? Do they have many differing fractions inside them that would fight for control of the party or are most Republicans generally in line with each other? Or perhaps, like the Tories with Ian Duncan Smith as leader, respond by lurching so far to a political extreme they become unelectable?

    Conversely, if the Democrats suffered a shock defeat, then does it have the ability to tear itself to pieces?

  30. 30 DENNIS
    October 24, 2008 at 22:04

    Does anyone remember Lockerbie and what happen, I found this story about what Syracuse University, New York did for the people affected by this day!

    Here is the link for story:

    http://NEWS.BBC.CO.UK/2/HI/UK_NEWS/SCOTLAND/SOUTH_OF_SCOTLAND/7687266.STM

    For the purpose of disclosure: I am currently attending Community College, here in Syracuse….

    Thanks,
    Dennis

  31. 31 Robert
    October 24, 2008 at 22:04

    Hi Lili

    Welcome to the moderating chair. I hope you’ll have fun.

    Let us know when your about so we can say hello.

  32. 32 DENNIS
    October 24, 2008 at 22:12

    Re: ROBERT in ANGOLA question at 9.53PM

    Conversely, if the Democrats suffered a shock defeat, then does it have the ability to tear itself to pieces?

    I think they have a great ability to tear itself to pieces….

    Re: in my previous bulletin..
    i need to write, i attended Onondaga Community College

    Re: Girl making up attack
    she needs to have an mental health evaluation to see, if she needs
    to be put in to the justice system…for wasting the valuable resources of the state…

    [sorry for the long post]

    Dennis

  33. 33 Tom D Ford
    October 24, 2008 at 22:16

    Lubna, I like Mad Men, Charlie Jade, The Daily Show, The Colbert Report, Chuck, Two and a Half Men, Project Runway, Saturday Night Live, Doctor Who, Spain…On The Road Again, My Name Is Earl, Kath& Kim (I’d like to see the Aussie original), 30 Rock, the NASA channel, Life, Foreign Exchange, Bill Moyers Journal, Now, Ask This Old House, This Old House, Globe Trekker, Joan Of Arcadia.

    Some are not currently running of course.

    Charlie Jade is set in South Africa and has some great gritty character actors in an intriguing always changing, dark, and surprising story.

    In my opinion the best Dr Who was Tom Baker.

    There is something about Joan Of Arcadia that I like, a sweetness and hopefulness about it.

    Life is a cop story but very different in a very interesting way.

    NASA, well, I love rocketry and science, and the people who do both and those astronauts, well they’re amazingly well educated and accomplished people doing amazing things. One astronaut said that flying in the space shuttle is about a thousand times more dangerous than flying a fighter jet, so there is quiet courage involved that i very much admire.

    I pretty much stay away from TV news-ertainment shows and I schedule my watching a week in advance, that TV is off if I am not watching.

  34. 34 Tom D Ford
    October 24, 2008 at 22:20

    I have watched Torchwood also but it is not currently running over here.

    Oh, I liked The Adventures of Sarah Jane spin off too.

  35. 35 Lubna
    October 24, 2008 at 22:24

    Wow, thanks so much for those detailed informations about “Doctor Who” Robert… Unfortunately, British TV shows aren’t shown on Arab Satellite channels, while almost all American TV shows are being shown on TV in all Arab countries… As for “Star Gate”, I used to love very much the actor playing the role of Dr. Daniel Jackson… I used to find him too cute to be a scientist, I was a teenager at that time, and here I am now, 22 years old and thankfully alive to talk online to a British gentleman (you!) about my past experiences, wow ! At the moment since I am old and mature enough, it’s really the theme and the story that attract me the most, not the actors or to be more frank their external appearances… Anyway have a great weekend Robert… With my love… Yours forever, Lubna in Baghdad…

  36. 36 Tom D Ford
    October 24, 2008 at 22:26

    @ Jennifer October 24, 2008 at 8:14 pm

    “@ Steve

    I think self esteem played it’s part in addition to maybe other factors….maybe lack of financial resources, threats, etc played a part too. Still, any person who was willing to allow their child to be abused doesn’t have much of a backbone.

    ——–

    Depending on what the attacker did; it could. Now, it’s just going to be a black stain……”

    Speaking of a “Black Stain”, apparently some people don’t have the same definition of abuse that you do. One of the Conservative Christian Churches here in my town teaches that babies are born with black hearts and need to be beaten to make them good.

  37. 37 Lubna
    October 24, 2008 at 22:48

    Hey my Precious Tom… Wow, what a list ! :-)… I just love “Two And A Half Men” my good friend, but unfortunately I cannot find it regularly on TV, don’t you agree with me that it’s actually very funny to watch men taking care of kids on TV ?! “Lost” is very popular among my male colleagues at college, in addition of course to the science fiction and action stuff which you and Robert seem to agree on loving, and surprisingly although they’re actually studying to be doctors in the future, they do not like medical drama TV shows very much… Doctors are scientists too you know, and their work can be sometimes full of action and adrenaline… Will I start to overreact and bash the taste of Iraqi young men here or not ?! :-)… With my love… Yours forever, Lubna in Baghdad…

  38. 39 Julie P
    October 24, 2008 at 23:19

    @Will,

    That’s it! I’m running too!

  39. 40 Luz Ma from Mexico
    October 24, 2008 at 23:36

    @Lubna
    I love the Law & Order saga. I am a lawyer, so apparently I cannot get enough of it at work, lol. In fact I wanted to be a police detective growing up, but since here it is a very corrupt profession, I opted out of it. Also, I wanted to be a criminal psychologist, but my father discourage me from studying Psychology (and I dumbly followed his advice), so my cravings from police/criminal lawyer TV programs and movies come from that.

    Currently I like 30Rock, SNL, Late Show with David Letterman, Ellen and Ugly Betty. My guilty pleasures are Cory in the White House and Drake & Josh (from Disney and Nickelodeon)… my older daughter loves them and they are actually pretty funny…

    And finally, I crave Gilmore Girls reruns on rainy afternoons… yes… sometimes I am very “pink” lol!

  40. 41 Jennifer
    October 24, 2008 at 23:36

    @ Robert

    Re: ” If as predicted by many they lose, are the Republicans about to do the same? Will McCain be simply rewritten off as a singular bad choice and the party will move on? Or will differing sides within the party try and push for reform of some sort? Do they have many differing fractions inside them that would fight for control of the party or are most Republicans generally in line with each other? Or perhaps, like the Tories with Ian Duncan Smith as leader, respond by lurching so far to a political extreme they become unelectable?”

    We are seeing both candidates doing their best to draw in voters. I don’t personally take stock in polls because I don’t think its going to be determinable until all of the votes are counted. I know many people who are just now voting for the first time; including my grandma! :)

    Many democrats enjoy pointing fingers at republicans as if they are solely responsible for all of the problems we have. I don’t think that’s true but they have become the scapegoat. If you have a problem; just blame it on the conservatives! I think you could count that the republicans would do their best to remain stable. I think if Obama wins (democrats) the party will tear the people apart.

  41. 42 Luz Ma from Mexico
    October 24, 2008 at 23:39

    @Tom

    One of the Conservative Christian Churches here in my town teaches that babies are born with black hearts and need to be beaten to make them good.

    That is seriously f…!!! (pardon for my French) I cannot believe it! What a bunch of sickos.

  42. 43 Luz Ma from Mexico
    October 24, 2008 at 23:42

    @Julie

    That’s it! I’m running too!

    I’ll vote for you!… wait.. actually I can’t, I am not American. But, I’ll support you ;)

  43. 44 Venessa
    October 24, 2008 at 23:45

    Julie ~

    I’ll vote for you if I can have a job…hahahaha!

  44. 45 Robert
    October 24, 2008 at 23:45

    Microsoft’s anti piracy in China

    If your moral code allows you to use pirated goods, you should at least accept that the owner of the original copyright\trademark etc is allowed to take steps to protect their brand or income stream. If you use pirate software then it is at your own risk of the consequences. You shouldn’t be screaming about your rights or invasion of privacy or loss of information.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUSTRE49L11C20081023

  45. 46 selena in Canada
    October 24, 2008 at 23:51

    Hi Luz

    Don’t be shocked… :-)

    That is just the concept of original sin. In other words, we are all born in a state of depravity, according to Christians.

    There are many ways of dealing with this sinful nature. Some believe it can be whipped or beaten out of a child.

    Spare the rod and spoil the child is common across all sects of Christianity.

  46. October 24, 2008 at 23:52

    Anyone read this?!
    Note, it was written in 1955

    Malc
    Berlin

    “Franchise” by Isaac Asimov.
    This 1955 story is part of Asimov’s “Multivac” series of stories. In the futuristic world of 2008, the United States has become an “electronic democracy.” Multivac, the super-computer, chooses one lucky person to be “voter of the year.” This person, Norman Muller, answers a series of questions and the computer uses those to decide what the results of an election would have been, if an election had happened.

  47. 48 Robert
    October 24, 2008 at 23:55

    Selena Luz

    The concept of original sin though is that we are all born inherently tainted by sin and until we prove otherwise we can’t go to heaven.

    There is nothing in the concept of original sin about beating it out off the kid. If anything I thought the point of the baptism was to receive the love of God, not the back of his hand.

  48. 49 Luz Ma from Mexico
    October 24, 2008 at 23:58

    I am a Catholic, I know about the meaning of the original sin… but that is too much!!!!

  49. 50 Julie P
    October 25, 2008 at 00:00

    @Venessa and Luz Ma,

    Since I’ve decided to run for Empress, Venessa, you can be Secretary of State. Luz Ma, you can vote and I’ll make you Secretary of the Treasury.

  50. 51 Venessa
    October 25, 2008 at 00:01

    Robert ~

    I agree completely. I worked for a small start up software company (before we were purchased by a giant corp.) and we had more trouble protecting our intellectual property than anything else. I worked with our attorney and the problem in software that if you are lax about enforcing your agreements it sets a bad precedent and threatens your IP to become open source.

    Microsoft has every right to enforce their EULA’s and I’m sure some of the people complaining haven’t read them fully. I suspect there is some fine print in there that gives Microsoft a right to hijack a computer that is not in compliance (and is on the internet because that’s the only way the check would run). Attorney’s writing EULA’s for large corporations cover their rears, they have money and frankly these people can’t complain because they got caught breaking the law. Do what the rest of us have to do, buy the software.

  51. 52 Jennifer
    October 25, 2008 at 00:02

    @ Robert

    Re: Original sin/Baptism

    “If anything I thought the point of the baptism was to receive the love of God, not the back of his hand.”

    That’s the way I’ve always understood it. It’s amazing how things can get twisted around though.

  52. 53 Robert
    October 25, 2008 at 00:03

    Julie

    What has Luz done to you to deserve being Treasury secretary. Must be the least wanted position in any country at the moment. All the same hassles as wall street/ square mile bankers but none of the bonuses.

  53. 54 Luz Ma from Mexico
    October 25, 2008 at 00:03

    @Robert
    Exactly!!

  54. 55 Dan
    October 25, 2008 at 00:05

    Selena & Luz
    I don’t know if I was born in sin and depravity …. I was born in New York. Maybe the same thing.
    In my world children are born innocent and we work very hard to keep them that way for as long as we can.
    I do not know where the concept that children are born in sin & depravity and have to have it beaten out of them but it sounds like pure medieval barbarism to me.

  55. 56 Luz Ma from Mexico
    October 25, 2008 at 00:07

    @Robert
    I meant “Exactly!” about your comment on original sin and baptism

    @Julie
    Actually, if possible, I rather be Attorney General. I am not very good with numbers :S

  56. 57 selena in Canada
    October 25, 2008 at 00:08

    “He who withholds his rod hates his son, But he who loves him disciplines him diligently.” (Proverbs 13:24) and “Withhold not correction from a child: for if thou strike him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and deliver his soul from hell.” (Proverbs 23:13-14)

    Many Christians use passages like this from the Bible to justify beating children.

  57. October 25, 2008 at 00:10

    @ Robert

    “If anything I thought the point of the baptism was to receive the love of God, not the back of his hand.”

    That’s what the other cheek is for.

    Malc
    Berlin

  58. 59 Venessa
    October 25, 2008 at 00:11

    Luz Ma ~

    That means you’ll be perfect. Obviously the people in power now aren’t any good with numbers. I’ll bet you will look like a genius!

  59. 60 Robert
    October 25, 2008 at 00:14

    Venessa

    I haven’t anything fundamental against people using pirate software (I’ve had few $20 Rolex’s and seen a few video camera movies in my time) but it annoys me when people who use pirate or faked items complain about the restrictions or limitations. If you want unrestricted non risk solutions, pay for it. If you want it cheap go ahead and take the risk but its your own fault if (or more likely when) it goes wrong. It may go wrong and you can’t use it. It may go wrong and damages other stuff you own. It may go wrong in that your hauled in front of a judge. Either way, that’s the risk you take and must face up to.

  60. 61 Julie P
    October 25, 2008 at 00:15

    @Luz Ma,

    Pick what you want.

  61. 62 Luz Ma from Mexico
    October 25, 2008 at 00:17

    @Venessa
    LOL!!! but I don’t like it either…

  62. 63 Luz Ma from Mexico
    October 25, 2008 at 00:22

    @Dan
    It is barbaric indeed!

  63. 64 Tom D Ford
    October 25, 2008 at 00:27

    @ Luz, Selena, & Robert

    That is an Old Testament Conservative Christian view, generally “you have to put the fear in children early”.

    I’ve been studying and thinking about that for around thirty years, about what that attitude does to children and eventually adults. Modern parenting methods based on psychologist BF Skinners experiments in behavioral conditioning have proven that old Conservative method to be wrongheaded and very ineffective in achieving desired results.

    That was the kind of religion I was raised in but I have long since had the epiphany that brought about great change in my life and rejection of Conservative Religion.

    I had raised and trained two bird hunting black Labrador bird hunting dogs, the first I raised the Christian way, punishing it and putting the fear in it, and the second according to modern psychology, positively reinforcing (rewarding) desired behaviors and most importantly no punishment of undesired behaviors.

    The first dog was a failure, the second was a great success, and that launched me into thinking about the parallels in human training and consequent behaviors.

    And that is the basis of my intense dislike of Conservatism, their screwed up views about human beings and human potential.

  64. 65 Luz Ma from Mexico
    October 25, 2008 at 00:34

    @Tom
    Agree!!!

    Old testament = a God of fear
    New testament = a God of love

    Christian that beat out the evil/sins off their children do NOT get Jesus teachings… for sure!

  65. 66 Jonathan
    October 25, 2008 at 00:35

    @Robert

    Very perceptive question at 9:53 pm. To answer your last question first: Win or lose, the Democratic party always has an unparalleled “ability to tear itself to pieces.” There’s even a saying, “I belong to no organized party; I’m a Democrat.” Both parties likely contain more factions than UK parties, because we ONLY have the two parties; no third party ever has a serious chance. Fault lines among Republicans are widening; many have endorsed Obama out of disgust for the Palin choice, which catered to the unsophisticated extremist wing rather than the intellectual, principled wing. They may lurch to an extreme, which I hope would make them unelectable, but after Bush, who knows?

  66. 67 selena in Canada
    October 25, 2008 at 00:36

    @Tom

    Well said!

    @Luz

    The most conservative of Christians use the OT model. I have never been able to understand it but what do I know?

  67. 68 Robert
    October 25, 2008 at 00:39

    Tom

    What do you mean by no punishment of undesired behaviours?

    I agree that you should never use physical violence against anybody including children. But punishment but withholding something (like staying up late)? Does that count? The reason I ask is that was the form of punishment I received as a child and I don’t see an issue so long as the child is told what is acceptable and unacceptable before and the consequences of either action is spelt out. This reinforces the idea of responsibility, I do this and this happens which I don’t like.

  68. 69 Tom D Ford
    October 25, 2008 at 00:43

    @ selena in Canada October 25, 2008 at 12:08 am

    ““He who withholds his rod hates his son, But he who loves him disciplines him diligently.” (Proverbs 13:24) and “Withhold not correction from a child: for if thou strike him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and deliver his soul from hell.” (Proverbs 23:13-14)

    Many Christians use passages like this from the Bible to justify beating children.”

    I believe those are from King Solomon, an old Jewish King.

    I thought for a long time about who could possibly benefit from such teachings and came to realize that it was the King himself. A King has to beat and intimidate his subjects into obedient and fearful submission and the evil genius of Solomon was that he trained parents to take that job out of his hands, Solomon turned parents against their own children, and that method of parenting has been the standard in the Abraham religions for something like three thousand years.

    I’d like to see three thousand years of King Solomon style parenting overturned and modern scientifically based and designed methods brought into widespread use.

    No child should be beaten and no child should live in fear.

  69. October 25, 2008 at 00:44

    “He who withholds his rod hates his son, But he who loves him disciplines him diligently.” (Proverbs 13:24)

    They whom art without love for thy child; shall correct them with grace; love thy child; thy son who is without sin be loved; say unto them that he who punish thee; withhold thy staff; punish my son for he has not been wronged. (Or words to that effect as best as I can translate The Original Text – (you quoted the KJV or ilk) They were translated into short form because of cost (money) King James was running out of it and skimped – a lot!

    and “Withhold not correction from a child: for if thou strike him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and deliver his soul from hell.” (Proverbs 23:13-14)

    Take thy hatred; correct my child; use thy arm for thy staff is woe; his life is neither forfeit for thy beating; my child will slumber [sleep] as with all as hades waiteth his soul [for]given

    Many Christians use passages like this from the Bible to justify beating children.

    Many (Modern) Christians use the passages from the KJV (or derivative) to justify the beating of children (given that the Bible was used as one of the greatest political books of Monarchical rulership that was ever invoked in any political system) until today in the Bible-belt and other evangelical movements in the world yesterday and today.

    A bit different don’t ya think?

  70. 71 Venessa
    October 25, 2008 at 00:45

    Robert ~

    I agree with you completely. I’ve been guilty of using pirated software and know other people that do. You definitely get what you pay for or don’t pay for.

  71. 72 Tom D Ford
    October 25, 2008 at 00:48

    @ Luz Ma from Mexico October 25, 2008 at 12:34 am

    “@Tom
    Agree!!!

    Old testament = a God of fear
    New testament = a God of love

    Christian that beat out the evil/sins off their children do NOT get Jesus teachings… for sure!”

    Yeppers!

    Luz, what is that passage where Jesus says to let the children come unto him?

  72. 73 Jonathan
    October 25, 2008 at 00:53

    @Lubna~

    For me it’s like this:

    Dramas:
    Dexter
    Mad Men
    The Wire
    The Shield

    Comedy/satire:
    Daily Show
    Colbert Report

    News/Documentaries/Public Affairs:
    Countdown
    Bill Moyers Journal
    Frontline
    Independent Lens
    POV
    Charlie Rose

    If you have a fast internet connection, you can get all of these that way, along with the BBC stuff. Let me know if you want instructions….

  73. 74 Tom D Ford
    October 25, 2008 at 00:59

    @ Robert October 25, 2008 at 12:39 am

    “Tom

    What do you mean by no punishment of undesired behaviours?”

    The child learns that he/she can get your attention by misbehaving and you don’t want to reward that, you want to redirect them to neutral or desired behaviors.

    In other words, sometimes the child wants attention from you and if you don’t give it they will misbehave in an effort to get attention. If you then give your attention by punishing them they learn that misbehaving is the way to get your attention.

    The child learns to act badly to get your “love”, your attention.

  74. 75 Dan
    October 25, 2008 at 01:06

    @Tom D Ford
    I think that you misinterpret “Fear God” in the Old Testament (the Bible)
    It means to walk in God’s way and worshiping Him in awe.
    NOT that he is a God of fear.

  75. 76 Tom D Ford
    October 25, 2008 at 01:13

    @ Will Rhodes October 25, 2008 at 12:44 am

    “Many Christians use passages like this from the Bible to justify beating children.

    Many (Modern) Christians use the passages from the KJV (or derivative) to justify the beating of children (given that the Bible was used as one of the greatest political books of Monarchical rulership that was ever invoked in any political system) until today in the Bible-belt and other evangelical movements in the world yesterday and today.

    A bit different don’t ya think?”

    Yes. Different.

    “…one of the greatest political books of Monarchical rulership that was ever invoked in any political system)”

    And the current reason that Conservatives push the idea of merging church with state. And their tradition of fear-mongering, etc. The few ruling the many through fear and intimidation instead of a government of the people, by the people, and for the people.

  76. 77 Robert
    October 25, 2008 at 01:14

    Do any of the other moderators mind watching over the board for a while? Its gone 1 am here in Luanda and I guess its even later for Lili in Cario.

    Will let you know when I’m up and about later this morning.

  77. 78 Tom D Ford
    October 25, 2008 at 01:24

    @ Dan October 25, 2008 at 1:06 am

    “@Tom D Ford
    I think that you misinterpret “Fear God” in the Old Testament (the Bible)
    It means to walk in God’s way and worshiping Him in awe.
    NOT that he is a God of fear.”

    No, I understand both interpretations. And more.

    Awe, respect, and reverence is a desirable state of being, it is timeless (eternity= unawareness of time passing), open. Some would say that is when you “are the state that is God”.

    Your own mileage may vary.

  78. 79 Jonathan
    October 25, 2008 at 01:28

    @”I get no kick from cocaine… I get a kick out of you”

    Barack Obama (quoted by Michelle Obama today): “I get my toughness from Toot.” Tee hee! But, no, it’s not that. Apparently “Toot,” in Hawaii, is affectionate slang for “grandmother.” Here in the other 48, of course, it has other connotations, about which he might not wish to remind us.

    Meanwhile, the GOP ticket does its best to boost the economy: Two weeks of lipstick, and, presumably, other cosmetics for Sarah Palin, and the expert to apply them: $22,000. Two weeks of hair styling: $10,000. Clothing: $150,000.

    Ten minutes of instruction on the duties of a vice president, either before nomination, or after it, before she was asked the first time, or the second time, or the third or fourth times: Priceless. (But nobody thought to do it.)

  79. 80 selena in Canada
    October 25, 2008 at 01:34

    @Tom

    But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto
    me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Luke 18:16,
    Mark 10:14 and Matthew 19:14

  80. 81 selena in Canada
    October 25, 2008 at 01:37

    @Dan

    I think that you misinterpret “Fear God” in the Old Testament (the Bible)
    It means to walk in God’s way and worshiping Him in awe.
    NOT that he is a God of fear.”

    Have you read the OT?

    If I believed in the God of the OT, I would be scared out of my mind. God killed countless numbers of people. Would you like me to list some of the atrocities committed by the OT God?

  81. 82 Jens
    October 25, 2008 at 01:39

    funny nobody mention bill o’reily as one of there favorite shows.

  82. 83 Tom D Ford
    October 25, 2008 at 01:57

    @ Jonathan October 25, 2008 at 1:28 am

    “Meanwhile, the GOP ticket does its best to boost the economy: Two weeks of lipstick, and, presumably, other cosmetics for Sarah Palin, and the expert to apply them: $22,000. Two weeks of hair styling: $10,000. Clothing: $150,000. ”

    Geezo, and they bitched about John Edwards $450 haircut?

    Palin is a natural beauty, I don’t think she needed a lot of cosmetic help. Clothes, sure, she’s playing in a big league now and plaid wool shirt hockey mom just wouldn’t do. But $150,000 is way more than enough, Target, Macy’s, or the like would have been fine.

  83. 84 Tom D Ford
    October 25, 2008 at 02:00

    Selena:

    Thanks for the Jesus quote.

    But Dan was nearly correct about the original meaning of the word “fear” in the bible. But that correct interpretation is fairly new in history if I recall correctly.

  84. 85 DENNIS
    October 25, 2008 at 02:10

    I am sorry, lost my manners—Forgot to say, Happy 30 Blank Pages…

    Congrats!

    *************************

    Re: CABINET…

    My position will be the Foreign Affairs
    Secretary….

    Dennis

  85. October 25, 2008 at 02:23

    We had “Joe the Plumber” and we almost got “Todd the Victim”

    McCain and running mate Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin “spoke to the victim and her family after learning about the incident.”

    :)

  86. 87 Jonathan
    October 25, 2008 at 02:41

    @Tom
    @Anything but the bible
    Macy’s is closer to where they actually bought the clothes (Neiman, and some other dept. store) than it is to Target. Amazing they went for off the rack instead of a boutique or something, but what the hey.

    Yeah, we all know I never object to spending money, but that’s kind of a clash with her “Just plain folks” obsession. I mean, theme.

    I still think having someone tell her what the VP does would have made more difference than all that fluff.It’s only a few words, but she’s (hilariously) (frighteningly) gotten it wrong four times now.

    Just heard it’s portrait time for the Bush admin.–they’re having official portraits painted. Donald Rumsfeld’s is being painted for $5,000, or is it $50,000, I always lose the decimal point when Dept. of Defense is involved. It could be $500,000 and still be the cheapest thing Rumsfeld ever bought on our dime.

  87. 88 Bruce Sickles
    October 25, 2008 at 02:44

    Whoa-bible discussions today. Radicals of the world unite and save us from the inequities of the rightious. That book has been translated so many times that it has lost all of its original meaning and is now only a reflection of the ideals and ideas of the ones who translated it. Besides anyone who uses that book as a justification to cause harm or to inject fear into another is doing the work of Lucifer (or some other dark deity).

  88. 89 DENNIS
    October 25, 2008 at 02:46

    Re: Ashley Todd….
    It is sad that she will be getting charged with a crime..But, she did according to the law on the books, made a FALSE police report! And, no I am not convicting
    her of a crime….

    Dennis

  89. October 25, 2008 at 03:15

    Lubna,
    Aslam Aleikkum,
    Check out the medical comedy “Scrubs” from the USA it’s hilarious!
    Try out Monty Python films and humour, very British and crazy, if you want to try and gain an insight into the British class system, and all it ridiculous and pompous institutions.
    There is so much to recommend, but I will try and compile a more comprehensive list for your attention in the near future.
    Incidentally, I tried asking you a few questions to do with the political situation in Iraq past and present in a previous blog. It must’ve got lost somewhere along the lines.
    For the moment, because you are as you’ve said inevitably interested in the internal politics and foreign occupation of your country, I give you the following if you are not already aware. My apologies if you are in receipt of this information:
    Sean Langan, British journalist and documentary maker on Iraq, Afghanistan, Taliban and other unreported areas in the world at http://www.seanlangan.co.uk. He is an independent reporter who tries to get to the truth of a situation, and not the censored rubbish we can be subjected to here in the UK. He was recently taken hostage by the Taliban, but released thankfully. Another is world famous, John Pilger, who has reported from Vietnam onwards, with particular emphasis on Iraq under Saddam Hussein, and from the 2003 invasion up to the current debacle, of which as a British person I am truly and deeply ashamed of. I want to apologise here and now to you and all Iraqis for what has befallen your country!!! I was involved with UNICEF before the war, and have information that was never published in western media at the time. You think the UK is an upstanding democracy with real freedom of speech? As mentioned below, please study John Pilger’s considerable catalogue of work to see that just isn’t the case and hasn’t been for some considerable time.
    I attended every single anti-war march, thinking that Blair would listen to 2 million voices of protest from all across Great Britain. He didn’t, and should be in prison for war crimes! Check out Pilger at www. Johnpilger.com. He is a journalist of such stature and held with deep regard by his colleagues, but is a little heard voice in the UK and elsewhere, sadly.
    I hope I get the opportunity to hear back from you this time. Take care, Matthew

  90. October 25, 2008 at 03:37

    It seems that a great stage is being set for crucial chapter in the saga of thinking on earth. With everything currently underway in the world; be it economic, political, fanatical, meaningful, or perhaps fabulous … fundamental ground is being shook. I feel we are entering a pivotal era. One in which, we will learn the error of our thinking, or one where we will fail.

    The things at stake are more than geopolitical, economic, or social. We have seen failed judgement and practice of our beliefs in many things, as many always have. But, not like before … we have a great history behind us … humanity. We are consuming everything we can get our hands on.

    We have become arrogant and greed driven, and though while I do admit America set the standard, we have not forced the hand of anyone. “American as apple pie,” and everyone wanted a slice. I love pie, don’t you? But … what kind of dung has been getting placed into this pie? I will say one thing, it is absolutely not organic. I am not a hippie, vegan, naturalist, spiritualist or which ever one might fancy. I am just me.

    We need to become more organic. We always talk about nature and the natural, as if it were some-thing some-where, but in the process we eliminate ourselves from it. We are a part of it, and we can see that happening now. Personally, I get irritated when an educated person takes the stance religiously, “Man cannot undo what God has done.”

    First, if one believes in math there are a great deal of papers with the mathematical proof; Second, if one would insinuate this is some how insulting a belief in God … You’re mistaken, ask Copernicus; Third, if one is reading this (smug-yeah god right), if one believes in math, show me the formula that disproves him and I’ll show mine which proves him. What should the apex of evolution be? In either event, this is not a matter of God, leave him from it.

    This is a matter of us, and the choices we make. The goals which we seek are, truth and understanding. If we cannot set the pride in our beliefs on the back burner and talk to each other in a civil matter, not for one to give into the other, but seeking to understand … the great resolve and hope that is needed of this time … will fail to come … as might OUR future. And all we will ever have is this ….

    overwhelming fear of what tomorrow might bring …. as if we did not know what we were, or are doing. We must define this moment with a great resolve.

  91. October 25, 2008 at 04:02

    Selena, Tom –

    But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Luke 18:16,
    Mark 10:14 and Matthew 19:14

    OK, we will use what you have been taught.

    In the whole passage, if you want to read it, this all leads to those who want to ‘pay’ to get into Heaven not by being good in works but by using cash, money. It is also saying that if children are not taught about Jesus then they will have a part of their life withheld and not have spiritual fulfilment. He is asking that you not to stop children learning as: “for such is the Kingdom of God – meaning that children are held on very high esteem in Heaven.

    As always, if you look for the words that turn you away then you will see them, but if, as always, things are read in context it is a very different story.

  92. 93 Luz Ma from Mexico
    October 25, 2008 at 05:17

    @Will
    Thanks for your last comment. I was going to post something like that, since I was taught at school (by nuns) that children are the most pure creatures on Earth and they have a sure place in Heaven.

    Growing up I was taught that being a Christian meant love the other and do service to those in need. I learned to be tolerant at school. The nuns were very “liberal” regarding that matter. Not bad, I was lucky!

  93. 94 rick
    October 25, 2008 at 05:27

    @ Paul Harbin
    Just so that you don’t think you are a voice crying out in the wilderness that nobody hears, I hear you and agree wholeheartedly. Well said.
    So wherein lies the answer in your view?
    Religion does not work.
    Materialism does not work.
    The whole world is scrambling like mad to maintain the statis-quo but maybe we need to fall over the precipice in order to make change happen.

  94. 95 Zainab from Iraq
    October 25, 2008 at 05:48

    Hello all, Hi Robert in Angola and Lili in Cairo

    @Lubna,
    My favorite is Prison Break, it’s great..but don’t you think that it is something perplexing that all the characters are clever, or in fact they’re genius..and i also watch 24..heh! Watch how JACK BAUER is dealing with the issue of terrorism.. he is a superman.. well if there is a real Jack Bauer .. there will be no terrorists at all. But the amazing thing is that there are two black american presidents!! :hmmmm: and there is no elections, but as soon as one president dies, another takes his place.. Well I don’t know .. but was the writer of this show dreaming or what??
    :dontknow:

  95. 96 Tom D Ford
    October 25, 2008 at 07:50

    @ Jonathan October 25, 2008 at 2:41 am

    “@Tom
    @Anything but the bible”

    I agree but that is the elephant in the room. Some seventy percent or so of Americans rely on it as their base of living.

    There has to be some way to address that. Some way to bring people back into reality.

    Oh my.

  96. 97 Tom D Ford
    October 25, 2008 at 08:04

    @ Jonathan October 25, 2008 at 2:41 am

    “Rumsfeld”

    Thing is, he is the example of how business is done! He exemplifies it. he is arrogant, intimidates his staff, he believes he is all-knowing, denies knowledge of wrong practices, won’t tell the truth, blames his staff, pleads deniability, on and on!

    Rumsfeld is a good example of how wrong it is to try and make the military a business instead of what it really is, a group of people whose purpose is to make war, to destroy businesses.

    I grew up a military kid and I love their potential but I hate what Conservative Republicans have done to them.

    Arggh!

  97. 98 Tom D Ford
    October 25, 2008 at 08:20

    @ Bruce Sickles October 25, 2008 at 2:44 am

    ‘Whoa-bible discussions today. Radicals of the world unite and save us from the inequities of the rightious. That book has been translated so many times that it has lost all of its original meaning and is now only a reflection of the ideals and ideas of the ones who translated it. Besides anyone who uses that book as a justification to cause harm or to inject fear into another is doing the work of Lucifer (or some other dark deity).”

    ” Lucifer”

    Bringer of light.

    Anyone who knows the story of Lucifer knows that he refused Gods orders to punish humans and was cast out of “Heaven” for that refusal. Lucifer loved humans too much and was punished for it.

    “Bringer of light.”

    Hardly a “dark deity”.

    Bringer of light.

    Don’t hide your light under a bushel, let it shine! Love humans!

  98. 99 Robert
    October 25, 2008 at 08:41

    Tom

    Have just got to the board this morning. Was there an issue with a post?

  99. 100 Katharina in Ghent
    October 25, 2008 at 08:44

    Hi everyone!

    Thank Spaghetti Monster we’re having another weekend and another Blank Page!

    Re. Child abuse:

    The things that adults do to children “because it’s good for them” go way beyond simple “beating up your child to get the sin out of him”. Many parents will push their religious and political believes onto them, instead of teaching them to think for themselves and build their own opinion. Many parents work full time and send their kids to [camps/scouts/all the extra lessons in the world] on the weekends so that they don’t have to deal with them on the weekends either. I have watched the scout groups in the park (when I was there with my own child), and to me they are nothing but a pre-military organization. (I guess, coming from Austria, where the Hitler Youth was big, doesn’t help my distrust for them.)

    I have the feeling that there is quite a number of people out there (mainly men, but also women), who have children so that they can feel big and strong – at least in their own family, out there in the real world they are the biggest losers. I slowly start to support Steve’s “license for parenting”… :(

  100. 101 Robert
    October 25, 2008 at 08:50

    Katharina

    I have watched the scout groups in the park (when I was there with my own child), and to me they are nothing but a pre-military organization.

    I’ve been part of a scout troop which went to the other extreme, being nothing more than a social group or playclub. That isn’t good for those teenagers either. It was a shame because I had just moved from one which had the right balance between learning, discipline and fun.

  101. 102 Robert
    October 25, 2008 at 09:18

    So as well as organized religion, Harry Potter is now under attack from atheists as well.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/3255972/Harry-Potter-fails-to-cast-spell-over-Professor-Richard-Dawkins.html

    If realism is what he wants, why restrict the review to just a couple of books? Most children books and TV contains non nonsensical information that defies science. As I said in an earlier post, I watch TV for escapism more than anything else.

    Harry Potter, although not a particular favourite of mine, is a positive thing in the UK at least. It got children reading again, and more than that to like reading. Perhaps the magic element will help. Science sometimes and engineering most of the time is based on somebody dreaming up something they want to do and then finding a way to do it. 500 years ago flight, radio waves, space flights all would be magic.

  102. 103 jamily5
    October 25, 2008 at 09:28

    Catharina,
    you make an interesting analysis about the scout troops.
    They are suppose to provide some invaluable experiences about the outdoors and let’s face it, many children spend too much time sitting in front of the TV or computer. and parents can get their child interested in any activity as a means to a couple of hours of respite. It is not correct parenting.
    I also think that it is a form of child abuse to be too permissive.
    I know someone who has no boundaries for her children. T. and her husband, S. (I mention T. first because she dictates the disciplining and the rearing of the children) are permissive parents to the extreme. They are parents who never want their children to hear the word “no” from them. They say that it gives their children a negative view and disappoints them. they believe in child led weaning, no vaccinations, homeoopathy meds (if any), structureless and child led learning and freedom of expression to say and do whatever one wishes regardless of others.
    Now, I can believe in some of these things, but they take it to the extreme.
    And, yes, I know them personally.
    Now, I say that they are abusing their children because they are willfully not preparing them to be good citizens in the world. They teach nonconformity with society at every stage and although, at first glance, that might sound wonderful, they are teaching them to have a disregard for any kind of structure or rule whatsoever. As a result, her ten year old son does not know how to play well with others. He is always alone: accept for his two younger brothers. He has deficits educationally and emotionally and although the parents try to tell him that he is a wonderful child, he sees that he lags behind the rest of his peers. It causes him to have low self esteem and then lash out at others. I believe that it is just as harmful to *not* teach your children about respect and to *not* give them boundaries that will help them be secure. The only difference is that it is tougher to proove.

  103. 104 Robert
    October 25, 2008 at 09:32

    Interesting issue surrounding war crimes.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/3253160/French-accuse-English-of-war-crimes-and-exaggeration-over-Agincourt.html

    The article states that The middle ages were a very violent time,, so should we accept that the acts committed by the English were just part of warfare in those times and not seen as a war crime. Or should we judge them by today’s standard and call them war criminal.

  104. 105 jamily5
    October 25, 2008 at 09:40

    @Lubna,
    I don’t watch much TV these days.
    I liked Law and Order and CSI.
    But, then, I found the descriptive Video. It told me every thing that was going on. Oh, I could not hear that murder so many times.
    Each time they replayed the murder, they would describe it in detail.
    I went back to the regular version and enjoy it more without knowing too many specifics. A description of the murder (once) in a single show is just fine with me.
    I just like to find out which piece of evidence will actually give them the clue to the murder. That is probably why I will always watch “criminal minds,” and “cold Case Files,” and even “American Justice,” if I am at my father’s house. But, I must do something before I go to bed, I do tend to bring the show into my dreams: which is not good.
    Thus, I am not a horror movie fan.
    “Law and Order” is always good because I like to see the defense.
    I like the shows that depict an ethical situation: medical or legal. “E R,” was not bad, if you could disregard all of the “who is sleeping with who,” stuff. I don’t like to be in someone’s bedroom.
    I find most of the commedies void of humor, yet, I must admit, that is exactly how my children find me — so go figure. .
    I will watch “biographies,” on the A&E channel. There is a “world network.”
    Since I am a social worker, I must admit that I did enjoy “Judging Amy,” when it was on and will watch reruns of “Boston Public.”
    I never did get into the Sci/fi stuff, but I will admit that the old “Twilight zone,” scenarios did catch my attention.

  105. October 25, 2008 at 09:46

    @ Rick

    When we look back into history, it seems that the catalyst for change are often times of great upheaval. I think it would be safe to say, one of those times are upon us. We have been living with good intentions and bad habits. I cannot offer a solution, I think only a fool would attempt to, but what I can say is surely, we can try to do better. I think the key for our change lies in our leadership. Leaders need to step down off the soap boxes and get their hands dirty. It is time to roll up the sleeves and figure out how to inspire dreams of the future, not invoking fear of possibilities.

    Life is a journey of the heart and mind. When either fail, we need the other to hold steady. I honestly think we hold too tight to matters of the past with our hearts, and do not allow our minds to see the future. How many times has the economic crisis been linked to the great depression? How many times has the Georgian/Russian conflict been linked to the cold war? Why are we so fixated on our past when we have a future ahead of us? I think, at heart, it because we want to understand, but how can we understand today grounded in thoughts of yesterday?

    I have not always made the best choices in my past, but I do recognize the fact that it help mold me into whom I have become. My childhood was not easy, and after some years of conflict as a result, I came to a point where I had to make a choice. Will I allow my past, things which I could and could not control, to dictate my future? I realized, if all I ever look to is my past, that is all I am prone to see.

    After a long and winding road of possibly doing this or that with my life to “earn” a decent living, I discovered that was not enough for me. My answer is, children. Our best hope for the future is our children. My personal thought on how I can make the a difference in my lifetime, if I might, is by engaging a child’s mind as a teacher … maybe sparking a dream or two along the way. The only key to the success of our children and our future is that, we do not take their legs out from under them before the even have a chance to stand. To avoid doing that, we must face what we have been doing, and we must challenge what we believe in.

    My greatest fear is … if we end up making fundamental changes over the next decade which take root, that possibly it will be too late. The time for change is right now and we are presented, within this crisis, a chance to make the 180 out of our past and begin to look to the future. Stop talking about it and do something. I should probably stop babbling now =)

  106. 107 jamily5
    October 25, 2008 at 09:54

    So, Paul in tx,
    What are you going to do tomorrow that you did not do today to make a difference?

  107. 108 Robert
    October 25, 2008 at 10:19

    Lili

    Are you about?

    Robert

  108. 109 Pangolin-California
    October 25, 2008 at 10:30

    Lubna~ My favorite television show is a series called ‘Mythbusters.’ If you haven’t seen it the show has a team investigate common myths scientifically and test them for accuracy. It’s very entertaining, it demonstrates practical application of scientific methods and procedures and they manage to blow a lot of stuff up. Who knew that so many myths involved the opportunity to use explosives?

    My kids are actually restricted and allowed very little television. It seems to help with their studies quite a bit as they get very good grades. Without television they have many opportunities to practice their reading skills that their peers pass up.

  109. October 25, 2008 at 10:36

    Before I can teach, I have to continue my education, also I must work to keep the lights on. I listen to the news, and try to keep up on science and technology (i will dabble in spirituality but not right off) so I have interesting things to talk about. Whenever a chance presents itself to speak to someone in such a way, as not to offend them, that they might ask me a question and I could try to offer my thoughts for them to understand, not believe. I suppose that has a different meaning for different people. But, I will never do anything tomorrow, the time is always now.

    “Yesterday,”(aka 2 days ago) I took cornstarch and water and began to mix it slowly till it gained super-fluid properties. It is totally fascinating to me, in a fashion like one might imagine a dog and a squeaky-toy. One could drop a rock into a bowl of this, and the rock would bounce … and if it did not bounce out of the bowl, promptly after the bounce it would sink. I could take my fingers and touch the bottom of the bowl, but I could not cause a hammer to hit the bottom to save my life … and I shared the wonderfully stupid joy of playing with it … with some of the kids (and their parents) in my neighborhood. More time than what should be spent on day dreaming, of what I would do as a teacher to inspire minds, I will admit. Generally speaking though, my wife and I are going to the park with the dogs for a walk on nature trails with friends, and then have a bite to eat before I have to go to work. =)

  110. 111 Robert
    October 25, 2008 at 10:54

    Paul

    I used to do some volunteer work at uni teaching children science via practical experiments using household materials. The cornflour and water was always my favourite, very messing, very hands on and always got the kids interested. Also with rheology (theory of things flow) being on of my subjects it was one that I felt very comfortable in trying to pass the knowledge on.

  111. 112 rick
    October 25, 2008 at 11:21

    @ Paul Harbin
    as I ride my bike past a lineup of SUVs at the stoplight, I am reminded that my efforts are puny and usless and only represent one six billionth of the effort required to make a change.
    Like you, I believe the time is now, not in ten years.
    Every species extinction is forever and even if we could turn MMGW around within 50 or so years, we won’t get them back. Even that time frame for a turnaround would take some serious leadership. A huge proportion still don’t realize we have a problem.
    The new Labour government in oz (the highest percapata co2 poluters in the world)are ‘aiming’ at a 10% reduction by 2020. BIG DEAL!
    Probably the best chance for the survival of every other species in the world is for our financial system to have a complete breakdown.

  112. 113 Katharina in Ghent
    October 25, 2008 at 12:00

    @ Jamily & Robert

    I do firmly believe in setting well defined borders to your children, if only because otherwise your children will “suck you dry” and still demand more. The most valuable lesson a child can learn is to do well within society and to be respectful of others. I’ve mentioned this before, my sister-in-law is “child psychologist” and her two children, especially the older one, are any parents living nightmare, but nobody is allowed to say anything and we all “just don’t understand” what she’s doing … to the children, imho.

  113. 114 Robert
    October 25, 2008 at 12:13

    To any mods out there. Domestic life is calling me away for a couple of hours, do you mind keeping an eye on things whilst I’m out?

  114. 115 Jonathan
    October 25, 2008 at 12:21

    @Katharina~

    I went to school with a bunch of kids from professional/ academic families, and I still remember that the very most dysfunctional of them were invariably the children of psychiatrists and psychologists. I think we’re onto something here….

  115. 116 Jonathan
    October 25, 2008 at 12:30

    @Rick

    It’s a total mystery to me why you or anyone thinks that a “financial breakdown” would be good for the environment. (Did we have this conversation a couple of weeks ago?) When money is tight, environmental protections are the FIRST thing to go, because they’re expensive, and people have less money to pursue them. I predicted that a while back, and sure enough, it’s already happening. I just heard about the EU and how it’s starting to throttle back its targets for climate change/ greenhouse gas reductions. There’s no appetite for more job losses, higher taxes, costly production changes, whatever, when people are struggling to make ends meet. Why would you think the opposite? I’m baffled.

  116. 117 Jonathan
    October 25, 2008 at 13:06

    @Paul

    I really, really like your thoughts in your 9:46 am comment, especially the part about how we always see the present and future in the matrix of the past. It’s never really appropriate, and yet what other framework do we have to make sense of what hasn’t happened except to look for something in past experience to compare it to. How many times has the bunch of bozos in the administration talked about the middle east in WW II terms, warning against appeasement and other grotesquely irrelevant concepts. At the risk of descending into the political, that’s the diff I see between McCain and Obama now: Poor old McCain can’t even use the internet, and is stuck in old ways of thinking–“victory” or “surrender” in Iraq. What the heck could that mean? Nothing. Obama–frankly I disagree with some of his policies, if they really are his policies (he’s had to say a lot of BS to get electable, like “clean coal,” corn ethanol, farm subsidies, trade restrictions, etc., because the key states are the ones with coal, farms, etc.), but he is SO intelligent and well-read and thoughtful, and intellectually curious, and not afraid to hear differing opinions, just like Kennedy–the many similarities are truly eerie–and I gotta think that if anyone can perceive a new paradigm, get outside of the usual labels and ruts, it’s him.

  117. 118 jamily5
    October 25, 2008 at 13:26

    Jonathan and Catharina,
    Thank God that I went into social work and not psychology — (splitting hairs, am I)?
    Well, yes, Catharina, I know those parents and their children. socioeconomics has nothing to do with bad parenting.
    @Paul, I continue to do my part, or try – but, it still seems like I am fighting a losing battle.
    So, was asking for suggestions, and not condemning.
    @Pangolin,
    I don’t have a working TV, but when we go to my fathers, one of the first shows that we turn on is Myth busters.
    Of course, the explosives get them watching, but they remember some science as well.
    And: “Dirty jobs,” but I have to regulate that one to times when I am not eating.
    They use to watch those “junkyard wars,” and “Robot wars,” to see how things were made and who could make the best contraption. and they will also watch other shows that have some education in it. And, we are a family of critiques: for better or worse. .

  118. 119 selena in Canada
    October 25, 2008 at 14:04

    @Will

    The suffer little children passages were put up by me because someone asked. They don’t seem like negative passages to me.

    But having said that, how do you put the atrocities committed by the God of the Bible into a loving context?

  119. 120 selena in Canada
    October 25, 2008 at 14:20

    @Robert

    Also with rheology (theory of things flow) being on of my subjects it was one that I felt very comfortable in trying to pass the knowledge on.

    If you are interested in flowing things, you might be interested in this video of the sound sand makes when it is flowing… the Song of the Dunes.

    http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=krzuRM1A5L0

  120. 121 Robert
    October 25, 2008 at 15:10

    Thanks Selena

    Reminds me of my days in the lab at uni. I worked with a type of reactor called a fluidised bed, which was basically a bed of sand with very hot air (1000 oC) blowing through it. We learnt from just listening to the sound of the reactor if it was ready for the experiment to be run. I’d never thought that something as simple as sand could produce such a wide variety of sounds.

  121. 122 Roberto
    October 25, 2008 at 15:59

    RE “” I’ve been studying and thinking about that for around thirty years “”
    ————————————————————————————————

    ——- I can well imagine you methodically charting your experiments in koolaide flavors and mixing.

    BF Skinner, ye Olde Testament, and a couple of labs is supposed to provide a foolproof model to raising children eh?

    Skinner, he just stole from Pavlov’s dogs, he did, the only difference being Pavlov never attempted to broadly apply elementary physiologic conditioning experiments into a proto-Scientology type of human philosophy disguised as science.

    Yeah, the image of you standing as a thundering Abraham over a little scared lab puppy admonishing him that no dog child shall be spoiled by sparing him the rod. Rich stuff indeedy.

  122. 123 steve
    October 25, 2008 at 16:06

    Remember in the past I said the next crisis would be student loans?

    http://money.cnn.com/2008/10/23/pf/college/student_loan_fugitives/index.htm?cnn=yes

    Now people are fleeing the country because they can’t repay their 150k with incomes made from their philosophy and music degrees.

  123. 124 Bob in Queensland
    October 25, 2008 at 16:22

    @ Roberto

    LOL! Skinner seemed so convincing when Walden 2 was assigned reading in my first year psychology class at university.

    There’s nothing like having a family to make you sceptical of the theorists. Individuals..and children are individuals…don’t seem to always know the rules!

  124. 125 Robert
    October 25, 2008 at 16:32

    Steve

    So you’ve identified a problem, what’s the solution?

    Cancel the loans? A bit unfair on those who didn’t go to uni because of the costs, or those that have repaid already isn’t it?

    Restructure the loans? I like the UK system of repayment. Effectively its an extra 10% on the tax rate until the loan is repaid (with voluntarily one off payments if you want, no extra charge) Makes the loan affordable because the repayments are scaled to your salary. Unfortunately we are restricted by how much we can borrow on the scheme (around $25-$30K) so there is a downside.

    Leave as is? They went to uni and got a degree, now its time to repay the investment. It was an investment risk and for them the risk didn’t pay off?

  125. 126 steve
    October 25, 2008 at 16:35

    @ Robert

    Nope, the answer is personal responsibility. Don’t spend $160k on a music degree. Don’t take out $100,000 to study Philosophy.

  126. October 25, 2008 at 16:44

    @ jam

    What can we do? I think in our quest of knowledge and understanding we have somehow lost the tenacity and will of a … “good ole college try.” Do something, no matter how small. When you talk to someone new, listen more then you speak. And in an effort to convey the message, grease reality as best you can before you start sticking it into some one’s backside =) but make sure they understand that you have greased it. What ever you do, don’t give up.

    @ Rick

    Well, I don’t know about a complete breakdown, but I think the current state of things -though bad- can bring about a new and healthy direction. We need a great deal of people in the right places making real movements towards a better future, not waving their hands in front of our faces saying, “abra-cadabra.”

  127. 128 Robert
    October 25, 2008 at 16:48

    Steve

    I feel the same way mostly. Education post 18 is an investment, not a human right. We do it for extra pay and a higher standard of life, not the basics needed to survive. We should treat it as such.

    However I do think the governments could do more to help students. First is basic education in debt, take money out now, you will pay it back and more later. Second is to get rid of this assumption that all degrees are equal. Instead of showing post uni pay as an average it needs to be broken into degrees taken. The more information the applicant has the better. Third is to find a way that makes the loan structure easy for those that have made sensible decisions but doesn’t remove responsibility for ones actions.

  128. October 25, 2008 at 17:02

    @ Jonathan

    I do not see birds, flowers, and everyone with a Coke and love … and honey bees ..
    or however that goes. I do however see the potential. I hope he doesn’t let me down. It seems in 2 of the most important arenas of our minds and days there are coming choices to be made the could represent the beginning of a fundamental change in our thinking and behavior. So watch the election closely, and watch the market closely, and see which way it turns.

    While I don’t see America as some savior, I do see us as a leader. America is poised to change … and lead the world in into a new era. I do believe if one could travel to a future somewhere and could find a book on planet earth. In it there would be a time-line that has a period which begins in 2008. It is upon our shoulders to define this moment as either another human tragedy (perhaps the greatest) or a triumph.

  129. 130 Julie P
    October 25, 2008 at 17:11

    @Paul,

    Did you ever get your voter registration cleared up?

  130. October 25, 2008 at 17:28

    @ Julie

    I did, and I am sill waiting for a report to be categorized by reason for voter registration rejection. What happen to me raised my interest and I just have to know the numbers, and even possibly look over it if the numbers merit concern.

    My registration is on the fridge door, and I will be looking into early voting on Monday, but for now, the time has come to go to the halloween store with my wife. I wonder if they have a life-size George Bush in stock …

  131. 132 steve
    October 25, 2008 at 19:27

    This story made me laugh so hard, either (1) complete fraud, and she’s going to say she only got 2.9 million, and decided to spend it on a NYC Condo, or (2) nobody is good enough..

    http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=6105535&page=1

  132. 133 Luz Ma from Mexico
    October 25, 2008 at 20:25

    @Jonathan
    I went to school with a bunch of kids from professional/ academic families, and I still remember that the very most dysfunctional of them were invariably the children of psychiatrists and psychologists.

    My husband’s father is a psychiatrist that specialized in orthodox psychoanalisis. He was a crappy parent, basically because he was an absent parent. My mother in law was not a good parent either. My husband had to undergo 13 years of theraphy to overcome all the emotional abandoment that he suffered as a child.

    I cannot say that all psychiastrists and psychologists are bad parents, but, like you, I think there is a trend.

  133. 134 Robert
    October 25, 2008 at 20:38

    I’ve got to head out for a while, can the other mods keep an eye on the site?

  134. 135 DENNIS
    October 25, 2008 at 20:40

    Re: STUDENT LOANS
    i think think it will be a MASSIVE crisis…
    and the starting of the crisis is starting now.

    Re: VOTERS REGISTRATION [MISTAKES]
    contact your local election office….usually
    they are more than willing to help out….

    Dennis

  135. 136 selena in Canada
    October 25, 2008 at 21:03

    I will be around, Robert.

    Take your time.

  136. 137 DENNIS
    October 25, 2008 at 21:40

    steve October 25, 2008 at 4:35 pm

    Re: Steve’s comments at 4.35pm on 10/25/08
    we should not be putting down, people going into a underfunded
    jobs such as music teachers….I know of a few friends, that are going to
    school for Music…

    Dennis

  137. 138 kpelly hezekiah
    October 25, 2008 at 22:39

    I thank God Almighty for his mighty hand. I personally was afraid that the socialist would capitalised on the economic corrections but it hasn’t happen as yet and I pray that it does not. I personally do not like the word ‘recession’ being used. What is happening in an economic re-adjustment globally because we have been fed with lies for a long time about our growth. We were simply overvalued.

  138. 139 kpelly hezekiah
    October 25, 2008 at 22:56

    my only worry is about how nation upon nation is covering up for the bad guys instead of flushing them out. Our political leaders are all pawns now in the hands of a few greedy, corrupt guys mostly based in the US and EU but God cannot be mocked.

  139. 140 rick
    October 26, 2008 at 00:57

    @ Jonathan
    Recession = less consuption = less environmental destruction
    less cars being made, less boats being made, less flights being taken, less Starbucks being built and on and on. The effect is immediate, not some obscure goal sometime in the distant future. Financial breakdown = recession x 10.
    @ Paul
    I admire your positive hopeful outlook.

  140. October 26, 2008 at 00:59

    Ive long wondered why many liberated women in the West were not more interested in the suffering of women in many Muslim nations. Now we have the arrest of Esha Momeni, a graduate student in Iran.

    “Mohammad Ali Dadkhah said no formal charges have been brought against Momeni but officials at the Revolutionary Court privately told her parents that her detention was related to her involvement in the Change for Equality campaign, launched by Iranian women activists in September 2006. ”

    “The 28-year-old Los Angeles-born graduate student at California State
    University was pulled over by police Oct. 15 for an alleged driving violation but was later taken to Evin prison, north of the capital Tehran, where she remains in detention.”

    http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1031217.html

  141. 142 rick
    October 26, 2008 at 01:46

    @kpelly
    what do you reckon your god has to do with it?
    I reckon he would be so busy sorting out religious desputes that he wouldn’t have time for sorting socialism/capitalism issues.
    Nice how he gets thanked for all the good things but not blamed fot bad things.

  142. 143 Jonathan
    October 26, 2008 at 01:48

    @Rick
    @”Better Living Through Poverty”

    That’s just a teensy bit simplistic–“recession = less consumption = less environmental destruction.”

    As I explained before, in hard times, countries, companies, and people burn cheap, dirty fuel rather than the more costly stuff, and rather than mitigating pollution.

    It’s also, obviously, temporary. As soon as the recession is over, any incidental benefit is over, and the pollution is back, as bad as ever. Oops! Maybe wanna think this one through a bit more. It is not, oh, what’s the word, “sustainable.” :-)

    I won’t even bother mentioning the humanitarian aspect.

  143. 145 DENNIS
    October 26, 2008 at 02:26

    Re: Julie P, Comments at 2.11am on 10/26/2008
    GROSS!!! DISGUSTING…

    Re: STUDENT LOANS
    i already taking out loans to go to college….]

    Dennis

  144. 146 rick
    October 26, 2008 at 02:33

    @ Johnathan
    Thanks for exlpaining the facts to me one more time.
    However, your support for the statis-quo has again not convinced me one iota. What your are suggesting is far too little far too late. The ‘I’m alright Jack’ aproach has failed. Globalization has failed. The buy now, pay later plan has failed. The run of the gravey train has come to an end and its time to pay the bill.
    World leaders are scurring around trying to prop it up and recession looms regardless.
    Burning cheap dirty fuel is just a teency weency bit fancifull. If it was available, it was already used up last year.
    Temorary? Only if we continue down the same stupid path as before.
    When serious MMGW hits, the financial and humanitarian consequences will make this crissis look like a little hickup.
    Maybe YOU want to think things through before you make more patronizing sactimonious remarks.

  145. 147 Kelsie in Houston
    October 26, 2008 at 02:43

    Evening all:
    Is the forgiveness of most Third World debt, as espoused by Premier Wen Jiabao earlier last month before the UN General Assembly, a viable means of reducing the burden of poverty on particularly African nations, or a recipe for accelerating economic instability in the developed world?

  146. 148 Bob in Queensland
    October 26, 2008 at 02:52

    The posts about student loans prompt me to ask a more fundamental question:

    What is the purpose of university education? Should it be an “investment” in training for a better job and therefore employment based? Or should there be an element of of “gaining knowledge for the sake of knowledge alone”?

    If the latter, should it be restricted purely to the wealthy elite that can afford it?

    I have to admit to having mixed feelings on this one. Personally, I was always quite career oriented and my university education was aimed at getting me a job in my chosen area. However, I also think that the world would be a poorer place without musicians or philosphers or (name your elite intellectual discipline here). For that matter, who’s to say which professions are “worthwhile”? University-trained economists or lawyers earn lots of money….but is the world a better place for having them? You could argue that musicians do more for our happiness and well-being!

    It’s Sunday morning here in Aus…I always think too much on Sunday mornings!

  147. 149 Tom D Ford
    October 26, 2008 at 03:44

    Hmm, so when you calculate it out, if Palin/Republican Party spends US $150,000 in two months for clothes, that works out to US $300,00 for four months and to $900,000.00 for a year. That’s Cindy McCain fashion money, and definitely not “folksy hockey mom”.

    There are very few wealthy elites in the world who can spend that kind of money on “wear only once and then donate them to charity” clothes. And very few with the income who can get the tax write off benefits from “wear only once and then donate them to charity” clothes.

    “Big Profligate Spender?” I think so!

  148. 150 Tom D Ford
    October 26, 2008 at 03:53

    @ Luz Ma from Mexico October 25, 2008 at 5:17 am

    “@Will

    Thanks for your last comment. I was going to post something like that, since I was taught at school (by nuns) that children are the most pure creatures on Earth and they have a sure place in Heaven. ”

    I learned that in Bali they believe that babies were most recently “with” God and so they do not allow them to touch the ground for something like 120 days.

    The parents teach respect by being respectful.

    And they don’t have the ‘teenager rebellion” problems that Christians do.

    I have to admire your nun-teachers.

  149. 151 Tom D Ford
    October 26, 2008 at 04:01

    @ Robert October 25, 2008 at 8:41 am

    “Tom

    Have just got to the board this morning. Was there an issue with a post?”

    Probably just me being paranoid. Thanks for checking though.

  150. 152 Jonathan
    October 26, 2008 at 04:20

    @rick

    I didn’t say I supprted the status quo. What I said was that a major worldwide recession will make pollution worse. We should instead make sure to replace it with something better. How is that “sanctimonious?”

    If you have some reason to believe that what I say is wrong, feel free to correct me, and to cite some factual evidence supporting your position.

    I have no idea what you mean about “cheap dirty fuel” being “fancifull” [sic] because “If it was available, it was already used up last year.” There was no fuel source “used up last year.” The Chinese are building hundreds of new coal-burning power plants, and thousands more are working every day and every night, there and here and all over the world. Cheap, dirty, far from being “used up.” And does “Drill baby drill” ring a bell?

  151. 153 Tom D Ford
    October 26, 2008 at 04:24

    @ Robert October 25, 2008 at 9:32 am

    “Interesting issue surrounding war crimes.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/3253160/French-accuse-English-of-war-crimes-and-exaggeration-over-Agincourt.html

    The article states that The middle ages were a very violent time,, so should we accept that the acts committed by the English were just part of warfare in those times and not seen as a war crime. Or should we judge them by today’s standard and call them war criminal.”

    We ought to take the history as written by the victors and the history as written by the losers, compare them and realize that the truth is most likely somewhere in the middle. And that the lower classes, as usual, were the losers on both sides.

    Now if you want to develop a historical basis for defining War Crimes so that the present and future can take lessons from history, well that is a good reason for looking back, in my opinion.

    But trying and convicting either side is just an academic exercise now, and ought not be given any status to justify murdering each other today.

    Learn from it, don’t repeat it. No honor killings. No revenge killings. No justification for hatred and divisiveness.

  152. 154 Bob in Queensland
    October 26, 2008 at 04:30

    @ Jonathan

    I’m with you on this one.

    Human nature being what it is, people are not going to accept a cut in their standard of living even if it’s to “save the world”.

    That means that we need high-tech clean replacements for fossil fuels and we need them quickly. However, the money to develop these won’t be around in a recession so, as you say, “Old King Coal” is cheap and plentiful…and the cost in environmental terms will be paid in a generation or two. Now THERE is a credit crunch looming!

  153. 155 Tom D Ford
    October 26, 2008 at 04:35

    @ jamily5 October 25, 2008 at 9:40 am

    “@Lubna,
    I don’t watch much TV these days.
    I liked Law and Order and CSI.
    But, then, I found the descriptive Video. It told me every thing that was going on. Oh, I could not hear that murder so many times.
    Each time they replayed the murder, they would describe it in detail.
    I went back to the regular version and enjoy it more without knowing too many specifics. A description of the murder (once) in a single show is just fine with me.”

    Jamily, do you have some sight or when you write that you “see” are you mentally visualizing what the audio describes? I just don’t understand, please relieve me of my ignorance about you.

  154. 156 Jonathan
    October 26, 2008 at 04:40

    Hi Bob,

    Interesting thoughts about college education and its “value.” I guess first I’d say that college-educated people on the average and in almost all cases earn a whole huge lot more money over their lives than the other folks. So no matter what you study, it’s almost certainly a great investment financially–the best, or maybe second best after a house. I think better though. So, as with a house, and these days definitely more appealing, a college education makes sense to borrow money for; it more than pays for iteself and keeps on paying.

    I have to shoot down your assertion that “only the wealthy elite can afford it.” We have lots of universities here that are practically free, and we have lots of scholarships, and grants, and loans, and even jobs. Parents usually have resources.

    Certainly anyone should think about how much one or another college costs, and how much he expects to earn after earning a degree; that’s not mysterious or even difficult.

    I deliberately didn’t weigh relative merits of lawyers vs. musicians, because we don’t have to do that to get this worked out.

  155. 157 Tom D Ford
    October 26, 2008 at 04:44

    @ jamily5 October 25, 2008 at 1:26 pm

    Check out the NASA channel, 213 on Dishnet, I don’t know what channel on others.

    Lots of science, International Space station coverage, Rocket launches, Hubble Telescope stuff, just all kinds of real science stuff, oh, and educational stuff for kids too.

  156. 158 Tom D Ford
    October 26, 2008 at 04:55

    @ Roberto October 25, 2008 at 3:59 pm

    “RE “” I’ve been studying and thinking about that for around thirty years “”
    ————————————————————————————————

    ——- I can well imagine you methodically charting your experiments in koolaide flavors and mixing.

    BF Skinner, ye Olde Testament, and a couple of labs is supposed to provide a foolproof model to raising children eh? …”

    Ha ha ha! a very funny post!

    Hey! Don’t pull your head out of the sand on my account! i have nothing to teach you and you obviously have nothing to learn.

    Just keep saying no to science, it would baffle you far beyond your comprehension!

    Signed, Tom D Ford, Mensa retired

  157. 159 Tom D Ford
    October 26, 2008 at 05:36

    @ Bob in Queensland October 25, 2008 at 4:22 pm

    “@ Roberto

    LOL! Skinner seemed so convincing when Walden 2 was assigned reading in my first year psychology class at university.

    There’s nothing like having a family to make you sceptical of the theorists. Individuals..and children are individuals…don’t seem to always know the rules!’

    But have you ever asked yourself where you got your ideas about parenting from? Have you ever asked yourself why you do what your parents did? Have you ever said to yourself, “I’ll try the exact opposite of what I learned from my parents and grand parents? Have you ever asked yourself to explicitly define your goals for your kids and how to go about reaching them?

    Yeah, I didn’t think so. I invite you to.

    Have you ever seen a dolphin trainer beat a dolphin into doing what is desired?

    Have you ever seen an animal trainer beat their animal into obedience?

    It just doesn’t happen!

    Have you ever watched a real “Horse Whisperer” like we have out here near the town of Prineville, Oregon? He trains wild horses, he is just amazing, but the reality is that he studied horses for many years to learn their psychology and how they relate to each other. He gentles them by building their trust and then rewarding them for doing the behaviors he wants and ignoring the undesired behaviors.

    Try something different and you just might get a different result.

    Ahhh, never mind.

    King Solomon was “Wise”, right, at least he had his promoters and handlers say he was. Just like Baghdad Bob, Scott McClellan, Ari Fleischer, and all the rest.

  158. 160 DENNIS
    October 26, 2008 at 05:45

    Re: TV SHOWS
    I loved the LAW AND ORDER series….

    Re: U.S. ELECTIONS
    the days are getting down to countdown….

    Dennis

  159. 161 Bob in Queensland
    October 26, 2008 at 05:52

    @ Jonathan

    I’m sure that, on average, a college education is a good investment. However, as with any investment I suspect some are better than others.

    Getting in debt to the tune of $150,000 may be a good deal for a person who becomes a surgeon or corporate lawyer but I suspect the return would be rather less attractive if the graduate became a librarian or journeyman musician. A big part of the problem must be the sheer size of the debts. I did some Googling and, in the UK, the average student debt is £11,000 (call it $20,000). This is certainly a good investment but I’m not sure this holds true if the debt is five or seven times as much.

    But should the investment potential be the only way to evaluate the value of education?

    (And I’d like to know if the availability of “almost free” colleges, scholarships and grants is really as good as you suggest.)

  160. 162 Bob in Queensland
    October 26, 2008 at 06:07

    @ Tom D Ford

    Have you ever asked yourself why you do what your parents did? Have you ever said to yourself, “I’ll try the exact opposite of what I learned from my parents and grand parents? Have you ever asked yourself to explicitly define your goals for your kids and how to go about reaching them?

    Actually I’ll be very surprised if there are many parents out there who DON’T compare themselves to their own parents. Sometimes the comparison stems from an “I don’t want to make the same mistakes” concern; other times the thought is “well if it was good enough for me….” philosophy. Either way, comparing your parenting skills with those of your father and mother is very natural.

    As for planning and goals, yeah I started off with a grand scheme. Unfortunately, my kids didn’t seem to work from the same plan and there had to be a lot of “on the fly creative thinking”. Still, my grown off springs seem to have turned out okay.

  161. 163 Zainab from Iraq
    October 26, 2008 at 06:52

    Brit ‘Fritzl’ faces life in prison
    A RAPIST was yesterday facing life in jail after admitting fathering 19 children by his two daughters.
    He continued preying on them into their 30s, in a case with chilling echoes of Austrian cellar monster Josef Fritzl. …the British beast controlled his victims with decades of mental torture.

    Last night one of the daughters told The Sun: “He can rot in hell. But despite being born out of hate we love our kids and always will.”

    She went on: “He started touching me when I was about five. It was going on for years, but I didn’t know my younger sister was also being abused until much later.

    “I am having to try to tell my kids, but it is going to be very difficult.” …

    The offences began in 1980 and continued until last February.

    The younger daughter fell pregnant 12 times and her sister seven.

    The father was remanded in custody until next month when he will be sentenced.

    Fritzl, 74, will stand trial next year after being declared sane this month.

    He kept daughter Elisabeth, now 42, locked in a dungeon in Amstetten for 24 years.

    http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article1839600.ece

    Published: 22 Oct 2008
    ————————

    Oh.. My.. GOD..
    Dreadfull, and disgusting.. this is really disgusting..
    What has happened to those parents.. can’t they just look at the children as THEIR children.. How can any son or daughter live safely with this torror.. well there are lots of such stories everyday in the west … Ok why there isn’t PARENTING-EDUCATION in the west??

  162. 164 Bob in Queensland
    October 26, 2008 at 07:19

    @ Zainab

    How can any son or daughter live safely with this torror.. well there are lots of such stories everyday in the west

    As shocking as this story is, it is NOT fair to say there are “lots” of such stories in “the west”.

    Depending on how strictly you define “the west” this probably includes two or three billion people yet you can count on the fingers of one hand how often this sort of even occurs. Even if you include ALL instances of child abuse, not just these headline ones, the vast majority of parents are loving and hardworking.

    Yes, with the breakdown of traditional family units maybe some education in parenting skills is worthwhile but this is a very different issue–with little or nothing to do with a handful of criminally insane parents who have preyed on their children over a period of many years.

  163. 165 Katharina in Ghent
    October 26, 2008 at 07:55

    @ Zainab / Child abuse

    As an Austrian the Fritzl story shocked me probably a little bit more than other people on the blog, but it’s absolutely wrong to think that there are “lots” of cases of this in the West. Also, Parent-Education wouldn’t change a thing, because the Fritzls were a very traditional family, very conservative and nobody in their surroundings would have thought this possible.

    What’s more, the one major difference between the “West” and the “East” is that such stories make it public in the West. Generally speaking, child abuse happens in all countries, religions, societies, you name it. All it takes is one dominant father who thinks that what happens within his own four walls is nobody else’s business, and who has a sexually aberrant taste. Without the taste, he “just” abuses his wife, with it, the whole family gets to suffer.

  164. 166 rick
    October 26, 2008 at 08:08

    @ Jonathan
    we have just been through boom times, how have the Chinese endevoured to use that opertunity to clean up their act? By building more dirty power stations? In their mad rush to capitalize on the boom they have cast aside any pretence of doing anything for the environment.
    Buy less Chinese crap and they will build less dirty power stations. It’s not rocket science!
    “Drill Baby Drill” is an effort by the US to be less dependent on imports. It has nothing to do with recession as such but does have to do with the price of imported oil.
    On a positive note, the local Merc and BMW dealerships have just closed down. The owner has had to sell his 3/4 million $ yacht to keep his other dealership afloat.

  165. 167 rick
    October 26, 2008 at 08:38

    @ Zainab
    If a 53 year old man marries a 9 year old girl is that child abuse? If that girl is the daughter of his brother is that incest? If the marriage is consumated, is that paedoplhilia?
    Perhaps you should study the life of the prophet Mohamed before you cast a stone at the “west”.

  166. 168 Jonathan
    October 26, 2008 at 09:18

    @rick

    Happy to hear that your neighborhood is becoming impoverished; I know how you like that.

    “Drill baby drill” is a perfect example of what I mean. When the going gets rough, people care less, not more, about the environment. We know perfectly well what oil drilling does, and what oil burning does, to the environment. But Americans freaked out and ran for mommy when the gasoline price reached HALF of what Europeans pay. Do you hear a bell ringing in the distance yet?

    The Chinese have not “cast aside any pretense of doing anything for the environment.” They’ve got plenty of pretense. Seriously though, they are having some serious unrest about pollution there, a level which in a free country would have already started to clean things up. Totalitarian country, not so much. The government is susceptible to pressure only from a large, rich middle class. They’ve been ignoring peasants for a thousand years.

  167. 169 Robert
    October 26, 2008 at 09:27

    Rick

    Jonathan is correct. All the new technology for clean emission costs money. In tough economic times that is one of the first pieces of equipment to be scraped. Or alternatively if the legislation demands it, the whole project gets canceled as uneconomical. The result of canceled projects is that we then put more demand on the existing, old, inefficient plants which generate more pollutants per whatever unit of production you use (MW, or tonnes …). As we place even more demand on the current infrastructure it can’t even less efficient.

  168. 170 Jonathan
    October 26, 2008 at 09:36

    @Bob

    Oh my goodness, of course the “investment potential” (increased earnings) should not be the only way to evaluate education, or even the most important. Absolutely there should be learning (not just knowledge) for its own sake. I guess I misinterpreted your original point. When the topic turns to money, I often don’t follow it any further. I thought the other stuff went without saying, but there, I’ve said it. I’ve never heard anyone say different.

    So back to the money. Wow, $150,000 is one heck of a handsome education, Bob! Of course one CAN spend that much, but there is absolutely no requirement to. Universities are one thing that the US still does well, and one can get a perfectly fine education at a state university for very little money. At the high end, Harvard admits students without regard to money, and pays tuition for those who need it, in full when necessary.

    Common sense suggests that every student decide how much to spend in relation to expected future earnings, right? A future lawyer or doctor can spend more money than a future poet, because he/she will earn more.

    Coming back around the circle, a liberal arts education is useful no matter what one does occupationally.

  169. 171 Jonathan
    October 26, 2008 at 09:51

    @Bob

    Here’s a link to a story about free tuition and other arrangements that minimize or eliminate debt at various universities.

    http://www.usnews.com/usnews/biztech/articles/060910/18free.htm

  170. 172 Bob in Queensland
    October 26, 2008 at 10:32

    Thanks Jonathan. I got those rather high numbers from the link Steve posted earlier. They sounded excessive to me but I guess, as usual, the report emphasised the worst examples for effect.

  171. October 26, 2008 at 10:47

    Hi Portlandmike
    Reyr October 26, 2008 at 12:59 am posting.
    I saw a couple of lines on this story in a Tehran tabloid. She was apprehended over a driving offense – she apparently was overtaking another vehicle – jail is very unusual in such cases. The article, quoting the authorities, adds: “If she remains silent and does not protest her arrest, she will soon be released.”

  172. 174 Zainab from Iraq
    October 26, 2008 at 11:00

    @Bob in Queensland
    & @Katharina in Ghent

    Well of course I know that this is not the way all “western” parents are behaving with their children.. I’m not generalizing. I have relatives who live in Europe and US and they used to tell me that they have very good neighbors.. (i know there are good people in the west)
    And about being unfair “to say there are “lots” of such stories in “the west”.
    well this isn’t my words, but you can see it on TV or read it in any newspaper.. Watch Oprah show or any other show.. you can find such stories. Above we have one (Steve October 24, 2008 at 7:34 pm) you can read the story of a father who killed his daughter…
    Any way.. what important is that how to end this abuse.. you both are saying that parents-education is not working.. . then what??
    (I respect the way you defend your society)

  173. 175 Zainab from Iraq
    October 26, 2008 at 11:11

    @rick

    Well, I didn’t invent the story.. I read it here

    http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article1839600.ece

    And instead of attacking me you can just find a solution.

  174. 176 Robert
    October 26, 2008 at 11:38

    Zainab

    what important is that how to end this abuse

    In the west we are doing the first step, making public what is going on. Only then can you address the issues. The downside of this first step is it makes us look evil. But how many other countries have the same problems we have in the west, but cover it up or ignore it because of the shame and embarrassment.

  175. 177 steve
    October 26, 2008 at 12:40

    For people listening to the show in the US, it will be on one hour earlier this week because Europe switched back to standard time today, while I believe we don’t do it for another week.

  176. 178 Jonathan
    October 26, 2008 at 13:01

    @Steve

    Hey, thanks for that; I’d been wondering when the time change would be. One week, right you are. Sorry for the other day by the way.

  177. 179 steve
    October 26, 2008 at 13:10

    @ Jonathan

    What happened the other day? Oh well, off to do some kayaking pretty soon. Have a good day.

  178. 180 Robert
    October 26, 2008 at 13:11

    Steve, Jonathan

    Looking at the schedule ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/schedules/internet/wsradio_weekly.shtml ) it seems that they have moved the time of the show from 5 GMT to 6 GMT. So those of us who haven’t seen a change in clocks will hear it one hour later.

  179. 181 Jonathan
    October 26, 2008 at 13:20

    @Bob

    Well, $150,000 is what my article said was the average cost of four years at a top-notch private university, but (a) there’s almost always aid of various sorts to be had, and (b) you’d have to borrow every dime of your expenses to end up with that figure in debt, which you wouldn’t do unless you were (c) going to make a lot of money in the future or (d) reckless/ deluded/ silly. And (e) there are much cheaper schools.

    I think Stanford is even more expensive than that, but again almost nobody pays the “sticker price,” as with health care. College costs are rising much faster than cost of living and have been for some years.

    I’ve been reading about the huge benefits of an educated population for the surrounding region and country, and it just might be a good public investment, or expenditure, to pay for with grants from taxes, vs. subsidized loans as now, even judged on pure economics. (Of course it’s good to have educated people, but an intangible benefit for some is more difficult to justify taxing everybody else for–including relatively poorer folk who don’t have higher education and never will.) On the other hand, someplace like Michigan has great universities and not a very healthy economy. But the big problem here–aside from health care–is K-12 education, which is really, really awful.

  180. 182 Jonathan
    October 26, 2008 at 13:23

    @Steve

    You have a good one too.

    @Robert

    Well now I’m confused again…. :)

  181. 183 steve
    October 26, 2008 at 13:27

    @ Robert

    yeah. oops. Wait. I’m confused. It’s fall back on hour, so if the show is on an hour earlier from our perspective. The show is normally on at 1PM where I live. It should be on at 12PM, unless i can’t think today, I haven’t been up for long.

  182. 184 Robert
    October 26, 2008 at 13:57

    Steve

    I get really confused by time changes myself. My interpretation is that schedule is listed in GMT NOT local British time. They are the same from October to April. In Summer we switch to BST which is an hour ahead of GMT. We don’t add or subtract an hour to GMT, as it is a global basis by which other time zones are set.

    So the show is now an hour ahead in the universal time reference so if you’ve not altered your clock this weekend, it moves an hour forward in your zone. (Or have I made a really bad slip in the mental arithmetic?)

  183. 185 steve
    October 26, 2008 at 14:16

    @ Robert

    I’m confused now. I guess we’ll find out tomorrow!

  184. 186 steve
    October 26, 2008 at 14:20

    http://counterterrorismblog.org/2008/10/white_supremacist_leader_bill.php

    I went to high school with this guy and we were friends and he even signed my yearbook! He said in it “I will either be famous or infamous”

  185. 187 Julie P
    October 26, 2008 at 14:46

    @Robert,

    The UK is off double summer time as of today. That means that they “gained an hour”. In other words they pushed their clocks back on hour. For those of us in the US, that means for the next week we can subtract an hour of the regular time difference between where we are and the UK. For those of us on the east coast instead of a five hour difference there will be a four hour difference.

  186. 188 Bob in Queensland
    October 26, 2008 at 14:58

    @ Robert, Steve, Julie, Jonathan

    The UK hasn’t been on “double” summer time since WWII. There were just on standard Summer Time (which is what the British call “daylight saving time”. When on British Summer Time, the UK is in a time zone of GMT+1

    Second: The World Service schedule in done in GMT which is a constant and doesn’t move summer and winter….as Robert suggested.

    However, a third point: from the posted schedule, it seems that they’re moving the time of the WHYS programme by one hour (to 1800 GMT) starting Monday. This makes sense since the effect will be to keep WHY on radio at the same local CLOCK time in any country that changed from daylight saving time this weekend. Alas, after several years of changing at the same time as Europe, the USA has gone it’s own way again and delayed THEIR time change by a week.

    This means that, while the US east coast stays on DST, it is GMT-4 so the WHYS show will be at 2PM Eastern, 1PM Central, 12 Noon Mountain and 11 AM Pacific. As soon as the USA moves onto standard time next week, WHYS will be back to normal for you.

    Sigh. It also means that I have six months of WHYS at 4AM! Oh well, I guess it will be easier to resist the temptation to stay up and listen!

  187. 189 Julie P
    October 26, 2008 at 15:07

    @Bob,

    The BBC just had a forum about their time change. They are “gaining an hour” today. So for the east coast until we “gain an hour” next weekend it’s noon on the east coast, one in Central time, two Mountain time, and three on the west coast.

  188. 190 Julie P
    October 26, 2008 at 15:12

    This may help with the time change.

    Current time in London:

    http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=136

    Here is the world clock:

    http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/

  189. 191 Roberto
    October 26, 2008 at 15:28

    RE “” Ive long wondered why many liberated women in the West were not more interested in the suffering of women in many Muslim nations. “”
    ————————————————————————————-

    —— The modern women I’ve run across don’t seem to be liberated as much as they are libertine.

    Obviously my pool of experience pales with the sheer numbers I haven’t met, but another thing I’ve noticed is when older teen/young adult women speak, they tend to use a modern adaptation of “Valley Grrl” speak with what I might describe as a dragging low note register with crisp, puncuated enunciation.

    I’ve noticed this in NPR intervies and it seems to have bled over the pond a bit with young Brit grrls. It’s like they’ve created a Facebook culture of self and the only interest in others seems to be in how they relate to that “self.”

    Are they really bothered by dogs in western countries being treated better than most all women in third world countries? That millions of infant girls are eliminated from India and China with the use of abortion and infanticide as sex selection tools to favor male heirs?

    Maybe deep within their recesses they may have heard, but can hardly be bothered. Plenty of exceptions, so let’s be clear that I’m not condeming wholesale, but just noting some changes in my lifetime.

    There were much more culturally diverse young women in my day, but then with the advent of waves of worldwide immigration into the US, maybe I’m missing out on the diversity of the new immigrants. Majority of those would be young Latino girls from poor working immigrants that aren’t being interviewed on NPR as local artists, leaders, students, ect in the same numbers. When they are interviewed, often you cannot tell them apart by their speech.

  190. 192 Bob in Queensland
    October 26, 2008 at 15:30

    PALIN SPEECH ABOUT OBAMA TAX PLANS

    Ah, c’mon!

    I wonder if Palin can spell “hyperbole”?

  191. 193 Roberto
    October 26, 2008 at 15:35

    RE “” Have you ever seen a dolphin trainer beat a dolphin into doing what is desired? “”
    ———————————————————————————————————

    ——- No, but I can see you thunderously ruining a perfectly adorable lab puppy as you implement some kind of nonsensical experiment you label as advanced Mensa science.

    Can’t beat that image with a stick!

  192. 194 Bob in Queensland
    October 26, 2008 at 15:37

    @ Julie P

    Sorry, but you’re going the wrong way with all those time conversions.

    Until your clocks change next week, east coast USA is 4 hours earlier than GMT and the times get EARLIER (not later) hour by hour as you move westwards across the USA.

  193. 195 Julie P
    October 26, 2008 at 15:40

    @Bob,

    The Central time zone is one hour behind the east coast, mountain time is two hours behind the east coast, and the west coast is three hours behind the east coast. The United States is behind GMT, not ahead of it.

  194. 197 Julie P
    October 26, 2008 at 16:05

    @Bob,

    Concerning Palin’s speech. It is hyperbole, but then she is preying on people’s ignorance and fear of what socialism and communism is.

  195. 198 Bob in Queensland
    October 26, 2008 at 16:43

    @ Julie P

    Scare tactics indeed. However, I have the sense that, except for hard core supporters, this sort of campaigning isn’t going down all that well and may even cost votes. The actual policy is well documented now…and has nothing to do with the government taking away peoples’ possessions!

  196. 199 Luz Ma from Mexico
    October 26, 2008 at 16:46

    Good morning/evening/night everyone!!!

    @Tom

    The parents teach respect by being respectful.

    And they don’t have the ‘teenager rebellion” problems that Christians do.

    I have to admire your nun-teachers.

    Yes, I agree with you.

    My nun teachers were a “rare bunch”. Most of them were very loving and sweet. There was not yelling, corporal punishment or the sorts in my school. We didn’t pray a lot either, just small prayers along the day (in the morning, the Angelus and before leaving school). Charity was a big issue for them. And they didn’t discriminate against children from divorced parents or single mothers (other Catholic schools do not allow the enrollment of this type of children).

    I was very lucky, I learned a lot from them about respect, love and tolerance.

  197. 200 Julie P
    October 26, 2008 at 16:50

    @Bob,

    I think some of this left overs from the Cold War era, plus a strong dislike of Chavez who is or has nationalized businesses or industries. No one who has ever campaigned for any office has ever talked about nationalizing a business or industry, nor have has anyone talked about seizing assets, unless you’re a criminal who has committed some kind of white collar crime, like tax evasion.

  198. 201 Robert
    October 26, 2008 at 16:53

    Bob, Julie

    I read an interesting opinion column in one of the UK papers (telegraph or independent, I’m not sure) which basically says Palin is now building support for an 2012 White House bid, rather than supporting McCain. She now has lots of free advertising and air space that she wouldn’t have got otherwise and is trying to build a reputation amongst core Republicans in preparation for the next one. If this is the case, expect to see a lot more of Palin over the next few years.

  199. 202 Luz Ma from Mexico
    October 26, 2008 at 16:56

    @Bob and Jonathan

    University-trained economists or lawyers earn lots of money….but is the world a better place for having them? You could argue that musicians do more for our happiness and well-being! – Bob

    I deliberately didn’t weigh relative merits of lawyers vs. musicians, because we don’t have to do that to get this worked out. – Jonathan

    Hey!!! I am a lawyer… how dare you said something like that!!! LOL. You are right, in fact, my problem is that I have ZERO talent in the arts :( that is why I went to law school…

  200. 203 Bob in Queensland
    October 26, 2008 at 17:09

    Robert, Julie

    That 2012 theory might make sense…but I do wonder if tastes are shifting and such negative (and easily disproved) campaigning isn’t playing so well anymore. Socialism is still a “red flag” word in the US but I think Obama has been effective enough in communicating his policies that nobody other than the hard core Republican supporters believe he is anywhere near socialism.

    If I was running the Republican campaign, a few weeks back I would have switched to fighting with facts rather than fear.

    ….but I’m glad Palin in particular hasn’t thought of that yet!

  201. 204 Julie P
    October 26, 2008 at 17:12

    @Robert,

    I’ve seen similar in American media. It’s tough to say if she will still be a force to be reckoned with after this election. Candidates who are hot in one election may not be by the time the next election rolls around, that person is normally a memory. This isn’t an absolute, but in most cases it is that way.

  202. 205 Bob in Queensland
    October 26, 2008 at 17:16

    @ Luz Ma

    Ooops! Sorry!

    Actually, in my last dealings with a lawyer she won me a settlement large enough to be a substantial down payment on a house, so I don’t mean to be critical of ALL lawyers! However, I’m more likely to put Pink Floyd on the stereo than an audio book on Tort Law!

  203. 206 lilifromcairo
    October 26, 2008 at 17:18

    hi guys, iam lili from cairo totally new in this web, iam having little problems trying to get the details, i need your help, i will be around unless i fall asleep before the pc try to catch me…

  204. 207 Robert
    October 26, 2008 at 17:22

    Julie

    I don’t think its about being a force. She is stuck in Alaska, not center stage in Washington, California, New York or Texas. She needs to have her name remembered and the impression that she has traditional Republican views, the details of the message are unimportant. If she is at least a household name it will help the finance for the next primary campaign.

  205. 208 Peter Gizzi UK
    October 26, 2008 at 17:39

    Hi All,
    Had a quick scan through your various entries. Enjoyable as usual.

    The reason I’m on is DAYLIGHT SAVING! Do we really need it these days? I’m old enough to remember “double summer time” done for a very special reason. Now all this clock changing seems to do is cause worldwide confusion for no purpose? In The UK it means also it gets dark an hour earlier, so depressing.

    Is it just possible in this global “village” we just get rid of it once and for all?

    I had my usual read this morning, with 3 pints of fresh coffee. Then felt ready to start pottering. Realised programmes were on at “the wrong time”. Then noticed the clock on the digi-box had changed. As all the TV I watched last night was pre-recorded had no idea it was this weekend.

    PS Love Isaac Asimov mentioned above. Very forward thinking. Get his books in charity shops from time to time.

  206. 209 Julie P
    October 26, 2008 at 17:40

    Robert,

    If she wants to be a player in the 2012 election she is going to have to do something to be remembered, but you are right Alaska is off the beaten path right along with Hawaii. They are geographically far from the US mainland: out of sight out of mind.

    I had one guy who I did business with who lives in Fairbanks. He had to bring me up to speed on what goes on there and what life is like there. It’s far away.

  207. 210 Robert
    October 26, 2008 at 18:31

    Julie

    I think she is attempting it with the Alaskan Gas Pipeline. This has been one of those massive projects that has never gotten through. There at last seems some movement on it, and I’m sure if it does get approval, Palin would be the one who fixed it.

    http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/campaign-2008/2008/09/03/a-look-at-palins-role-in-alaskas-big-natural-gas-pipeline-project.html

  208. 211 Julie P
    October 26, 2008 at 18:37

    @Robert,

    She can try. The rule of thumb is that it is hard to unseat an incumbent. We haven’t had that many one term presidents, most of the time they get re-elected.

    One term presidents that I can remember; John Adams, John Quincy Adams, Martin Van Buren, James K Polk, Franklin Pierce, James Buchanan, Rutherford B Hayes, Benjamin Harrison, William Howard Taft, Herbert Hoover, Jimmy Carter and George HW Bush.

  209. 212 Robert
    October 26, 2008 at 18:48

    Julie

    It is interesting that Hoover is on the list. The president who oversaw the aftermath of the 29 crash lasted one term. Could McCain/Obama suffer from the same problem? Although they didn’t create the crash themselves, the negative feelings many will feel over the coming years may hurt the incumbent in 2012.

  210. 213 Julie P
    October 26, 2008 at 19:10

    @Robert,

    This is my opinion, but I beleive that history will fault Bush, not McCain or Obama. McCain, because he is from the same politcal party as Bush is taking the fall from the financial fall out.

    If by 2012 the economy does not improve the incumbent will probably suffer the fate of a term president and will receive fault for the economy.

  211. 214 Robert
    October 26, 2008 at 19:19

    Julie
    Your right, history is likely to blame Bush, Clinton, Greenspan etc and not McCain and Obama. But then it’s not history voting in 2012, but real people, each with their own form of irrational logic and feelings. Who knows who and why they will blame for their woes in 2012?

  212. 215 Dan
    October 26, 2008 at 19:20

    Perhaps you all miss the point. George W. Bush destroyed the Republican Party, did nothing to develop a successor and dismantled the dream of Ronald Reagan.
    “W” provided no true leadership and congress went wild like children with no discipline.
    If you watched today’s Meet the Press McCain is not even fighting. He was unprepared and lost.
    Democrats do not have a lock on power as Obama has been selling for 2 years and hasn’t closed the deal yet.
    The Republican Party will rise again out of the ashes. There are some very bright stars rising within the Republican Party. Sarah Palin is not one of them.

  213. 216 DENNIS@OCC
    October 26, 2008 at 19:41

    HI, all…

    @ THE DREADED TIME CHANGE
    it needs ro be abolished

    @ LILI in CAIRO
    welcome to the moderators…

    @ PALIN’S TAX PLANS
    it looks like a good story on daytime
    television….

    Dennis

  214. 217 DENNIS@OCC
    October 26, 2008 at 19:42

    Blaming someone 2012, is SIMPLY wrong….

    Blaming someone in 2008 , for something being wrong, then the current administration…needs to be blamed…..

    Dennis

  215. 218 DENNIS@OCC
    October 26, 2008 at 19:45

    Re: LAWYERS
    i can not be slandering them too much right now…because
    my brother–who took the bar exam!!!!

    i have had some dealings with them [good and bad]…..

    Dennis

  216. 219 Jennifer
    October 26, 2008 at 19:51

    Re: http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=6105535&page=1

    I hope if she raises that money she goes so far as to also hire a bodyguard too. Maybe she’ll find a nice guy but more than likely just alot of creeps….
    __________________

    Hi Lili:) I hope you are enjoying being a moderator. If you need some help I could try……

  217. 220 DENNIS@OCC
    October 26, 2008 at 19:54

    Re: COLLEGES & DEBT
    try a community college and then transfer yoru credits into a state
    or private college or university….

    Dennis

  218. 221 DENNIS@OCC
    October 26, 2008 at 19:56

    Re: ISRAEL AND THEY WILL BE HAVING A GENERAL ELECTION [ASAP]…
    This will be putting a strain on the “unknown” state of Middle East Peace Prospects.

    The BBC has a story:

    http://NEWS.BBC.CO.UK/2/HI/MIDDLE_EAST/7691387.stm

    Dennis

  219. 222 DENNIS@OCC
    October 26, 2008 at 19:59

    To answer Jennifer questions @ October 26, 2008 at 7:51 pm

    this girl, needs to get a bodyguard and some psychiatric care because, she is putting herself in some danger…..

    GO to the bar-room, join a club, fitness centre…where sometimes, the guys are….

    Dennis

  220. 223 Jennifer
    October 26, 2008 at 20:17

    @ Dennis

    It is creative as she said but I don’t think it’s well thought through or else she’d see that it could lead to a big mess! It said she’d been through 19 guys in the past year. Believe me, I understand being picky but that’s a little much…

  221. 224 Jennifer
    October 26, 2008 at 20:57

    Re: Campaign negativity

    I am always really amazed when people say that McCain’s campaign is negative. If you watch his tv ads, sure, they point out glitches in Obama’s character, plans, and etc. That’s what they are supposed to do. It’s showing why Obama is not qualified to be president. Obama just has misleading tv ads that don’t give you all the facts…….I’d much rather hear negative facts than positive lies.

    The reality is that both candidates are trying to win. they will say what they have to to do that. I think Obama’s campaign is much more negative than McCain’s. He is very misleading in his ads. I also find it really annoying that he likes to say McCain is being “negative”. Obama is “negative” too; he’s just a coward and lets other people do it for him. That way he still comes out smelling like roses and gets to be the good guy.

    I have found that his supporters are very aggressive, extremely rude, and insulting. They don’t just attack McCain’s policies, character as it relates to being Pres., but they have attacked him and Sarah Palin personally. I find it really offensive that they have also insulted her children; especially her son with special needs.

    As for McCain playing on fear; isn’t that what Obama is doing? I mean, how many times have I heard him compare McCain to George Bush? That’s annihilating an entire political party. What’s he going to do? Never work with republicans if he is elected President? I don’t think that would benefit people at all. We know Bush messed up but we don’t need to hear about it. Saying that John McCain wouldn’t be a good president because he’s republican is just crazy. Do all Republicans think exactly the same? If they do, then so do all democrats.

    Come on, we need an experienced president….not a motivational speaker!

  222. 225 Jonathan
    October 26, 2008 at 21:16

    @Joe the plumber

    For anyone who might not have seen the actual, original exchange that put Joe the Plumber on the political map, here is a link to his question of Sen. Obama and Sen. Obama’s answer. It’s a youtube video that lasts nearly six minutes; it’s well worth the time.

    It’s pretty amazing that after a big event in the last weeks of a busy campaign, Obama spent more than four whole minutes discussing in detail the effects of various taxes with one guy on a rope line. He’s obviously well versed in tax policy, not just a couple of talking points. He’s articulate iand nformed, and he talks with Joe even knowing that Joe won’t be voting for him. This belongs in Obama’s campaign, not McCain’s. He should be putting it on every TV minute he can buy. What does everyone else think?

  223. 226 Jonathan
    October 26, 2008 at 21:23

    @Jennifer

    Hi, nice to see you again. I’d especially be interested in your reaction to the “Joe the Plumber” event, if you watch it.

    I also need to tell you that what you call “pointing out glitches” is the definition of “negative” advertising. That’s what it means. Not whether it’s true or false, not whether you like it or not.

    Finally, a question that’s been on my mind: Since you oppose federally funded health care or health insurance, I’m wondering what it was about Hillary Clinton that you liked, back when you say you supported her. That’s what she was best known for.

  224. 227 Kelsie in Houston
    October 26, 2008 at 21:48

    What will the foreign policy consequences be from this?

  225. October 26, 2008 at 21:52

    Jennifer,

    To answer questions any issue a canididate has two options. He/ She can either answer what they would do, what their perpective is, and/ or what they have dibe in the past. A negative answer to an issue question is to point out what your opponent has done, said, and/ or simply unrelated misdirection away form the issue.

    Using “Joe…” as an example, Obama could have said, “There is no gaurentee McCain won’t raise your taxes, he was against the Bush tax cuts before he was for them.”

    McCain is in the trouble he is in because America has been asking, “what are you going to do about the economy?” and all he can say is, “Barack knows a terrorist and some guys in Ohio who are poor are filling out voter registrations with fake names so they can get paid.” Great, that isn’t the question we asked.

  226. 229 Jonathan
    October 26, 2008 at 21:54

    @Kelsie

    Wow. It makes me nostalgic for the days when I could read something like that, and read a US rebuttal, and be confident it was a lie, because this country didn’t do things like that, and wouldn’t lie if it did. These days, not so much.

    Ooh, sunshine and a poster fair and an art walk today, gotta run. Kelsie, I hope you saw my explanation/apology the other day.

  227. 230 Jennifer
    October 26, 2008 at 22:54

    @ Jonathon

    I did not watch the video you provided the link for. However, I will say that I don’t believe that Obama has enough experience to be president. I will also say that there is no way that he can do all of the things he promises with the way our economy is. I am not saying that the government should not offer assistance programs but this is the time to scale back not go on a spending spree. Then again, will he be using his leftover campaign money to fund these programs?

    I have said more than once why I will be voting for McCain and not Obama. The main reason is experience. McCain has so much more than Obama does. As Joe Biden said…..our next president will be tested….and I don’t know that Obama would make the best judgments. Hillary had my vote because she was much more experienced and she had substance. Obama has none. I never said that people didn’t need help but I am sure that people would much rather have their homes, jobs, and etc. as opposed to health insurance right now. It’s called prioritizing and it needs to be done. Obama’s plans are grand but they are just plans. I don’t see them happening without alot of spending, which is foolish to do right now. We have programs now that could be reformed.

    I guess for Obama supporters any ad that raises questions about his qualifications for president would be “negative”? Maybe the candidates would be better off writing love letters to each other? Please! The things I have heard Obama supporters say…….

    I see you conveniently didn’t discuss Obama’s creating fear of republicans…..haha That would never be “negative”…and now Obama should have Joe the plumber in his pocket. Because he spent 4 minutes talking to him????? Again, please! I could sound well versed on tax policy if I tried for 4 minutes. Does that mean I would be fit to be president?

  228. 231 Jennifer
    October 26, 2008 at 23:03

    @ Dwight

    All Obama says is that McCain is George Bush.

    It’s ok for Obama to do that but it’s “negative” for McCain to call attention to areas of question with regards to Obama’s friends, experience, and plans.

    So, we are saying that Obama can be negative but McCain should be a bad guy because he does the same?

  229. 232 Julie P
    October 26, 2008 at 23:15

    @Robert,

    The problem that Hoover suffered from during his administration was that he relied on volunteerism to jump start the economy. He also took too time to respond to the world’s economic downward spiral. It was two years into the downward spiral when he enacted the Smoot Halley Act, by then the world had their tariffs, and so forth in place, the trade wars were on. Long story short, Hoover procrastinated and when FDR won the election FDR would not work with Hoover until he was sworn into office, which exacerbated the situation.

    As it stands we are aware the biggest contributor to the Depression was wasting too much time in responding. I can only hope that if we act fast enough it will at least lesson the impact.

    I have no idea what the next four holds, but I do not think they are going to be pretty.

  230. 233 Jennifer
    October 26, 2008 at 23:24

    @ Dwight

    A link for you….

    http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/26/campaign.wrap/index.html?iref=mpstoryview

    Read the first sentence under story highlights! hahaha

  231. 234 Julie P
    October 26, 2008 at 23:26

    Jennifer,

    Jonathon or anyone else does not have to create fear of the Republicans. Since Bush is a Republican, he is the ruling party and McCain is a member of it. Because the economy is in the tank the Republican Party is going to take the blame, even if you do not like it. It was like that when George HW Bush was president. Papa Bush lost because he was the president during the 1992 recession. He got voted out of office and we got a Democratic Congress and Senate. It was the same experience for Carter. The economy sucked in 1980 and Reagan stomped Carter because of that. I repeat, like it or not, McCain is suffering because of Bush’s poor showing because they are both Republicans.

  232. 235 Kelsie in Houston
    October 26, 2008 at 23:31

    @Jonathan:
    I agree—it does not befit our rhetoric to engage in this sort of military action, if it does indeed turn out that the attack was deliberate. Pakistan’s president has already repeatedly warned the coalition that violations of its sovereignty are creating legitimate public resentment against the coalition–and this in a nation largely friendly to the “war on terror.” What will the effects be in a nation already suspicious of Western motives, such as Syria?

    Explanation/apology—what/when was this?

  233. 236 Robert
    October 26, 2008 at 23:34

    Well its time for me to turn in for the night. Can the regular mods keep the board moving?

    Robert

  234. 237 Kelsie in Houston
    October 26, 2008 at 23:39

    @Jennifer:
    Mr McCain has voted 90% in favour of Mr Bush’s policies—you may not consider that sufficient similarity to warrant favourable comparisons between the two, but a sizable number of people in the United States and an even larger number abroad certainly see that as a valid connection.

    If I recall correctly, it was Mr McCain who attempted to equate criticism of policy with “personal attacks,” a total absurdity in the realm of American (and most democratic [small "d"]) political discourse.

    The things I have heard Obama supporters say…….
    Seriously—the things I’ve seen Mr McCain’s supporters do….try hard to differentiate between the candidates themselves and their supporters.

    If you don’t agree with someone, very well: but the opposition to anyone’s party, Republican or Democratic, has an obligation to present its credentials before the electorate. These consist of two simple elements:
    1. Why my opponent is wrong, ergo—
    2. Why my policies are correct.

    Nothing in there is “negative” or “personal.”

    This symphony of sorrowful songs from the GOP base really is humorous and smacks of almost nonsensical desperation.

  235. 238 Jonathan
    October 26, 2008 at 23:41

    @Jennifer~

    But you do have four minutes. You have all the minutes you want. By saying that “this is time to cut back not go on a spending spree,” you differ from every serious economist, all of whom say that a recession is exactly the time to on a spending spree. The deficit should grow; that’s the tried and true remedy for recession. Spending would not be “foolish.” Maybe you could do better with tax policy (go ahead, take all the time you need), but you flunked on spending.

    But I didn’t ask you any of that. All I asked you was (1) your opinion of the actual “Joe the Plumber” exchange, and (2) what positions of Hillary Clinton you supposedly agreed with, given that you disagree with her on exactly everything I know of. You didn’t watch the video, and you didn’t answer about Hillary.

    It is, of course, ridiculous to say that “All Obama says is that McCain is George Bush.” He says a lot of things. A Senator’s voting record is relevant, factual, and verifiable. Describing that record is completely different from spreading false rumors about family, “friends,” religion, etc. that are not relevant, not factual, and not verifiable.

  236. 240 Julie P
    October 26, 2008 at 23:46

    @Kelsie,

    Here is John McCain’s voting record over the last two years. Not only did he vote 90% of the time with Bush, he missed 64% of the votes.

    http://projects.washingtonpost.com/congress/members/m000303/

    As a comparison Obama missed 46% of the votes and voted 96% of the time with Democrats.

    http://projects.washingtonpost.com/congress/members/o000167/

  237. 241 Kelsie in Houston
    October 26, 2008 at 23:48

    @Julie:
    I suppose he’s a maverick in that respect: missing over half of the votes in the Senate is, I would hope, not the norm. Does anyone else doubt the Senate’s self-imposed moniker, “world’s greatest deliberative body”?

  238. 242 Jonathan
    October 26, 2008 at 23:49

    @Kelsie

    You forgot “The economy is on firm footing,” or has McCain finally figured out not to say that anymore, as of a week or two ago? One wonders how the advisers to that campaign can justify their fees.

  239. 243 Kelsie in Houston
    October 26, 2008 at 23:53

    @Jonathan:
    For a man who can’t remember how many houses either he or his wife own, I would imagine the economy certainly is on firm footing—unfortunately, there is that teeming mass of mere mortals to contend with…

  240. 244 Julie P
    October 27, 2008 at 00:08

    @Kelsie,

    I do not know the exact percentage of missed votes for either House, but McCain’s 64%, which is 18% higher than Obama’s, is abnormally high. In fact, if I remember correctly, the amount Obama missed is more than the average of both Houses.

  241. 245 Dan
    October 27, 2008 at 00:27

    Much vitriol has been leveled at Conservatives for the economic crisis but a forensic analysis shows clearly that the root cause was the passage of an act by congress during the Clinton Administration.
    Democrats and Republicans signed on as did President Clinton.
    What this means is that you cannot punish one political Party for the economic crisis. You can only decide which Party can better fix it.

  242. October 27, 2008 at 00:53

    Jennifer,

    Two things here. First, you sent a link where Obama was giving a 30 to 45 min speech and you focused on one sentence. As your response showed, you had me focus on just one sentence, but shortly after that Obama bridges into the rest of the speech saying what he is going to do. Here in Ohio we have ads from McCain that have a doomy gloomy production value and does nothing but talk about his ties to ACORN and Ayers. All of the Obama ads are “That One” sitting in a chair looking straight into the camera talking about what he is going to do. There are negative ads towards McCain, but they are not followed by the, “I approve this message.”

    The second thins is that negative ads are not completely undesirable. Did John McCain vote, with George Bush 90% of the time? McCain has never denied it. The implications are that the policies GW pursued are historically the ones McCain pursued. If you don’t like those policies, then don’t vote for McCain.

    However saying that Obama “palled around with terrorist” is implying he hods the same policies as Ayers. There is nothing to support the message, and the McCain campaign only puts it in the form of a question so they have an out of saying, “we were just asking were weren’t saying he does.” childish at best. If your negative attracts have relevant factual content, then they will be vies with a more positive perspective. Obama has been an American, and live here 99% of his life. His is a story of any American. He has been vetted for a year and a half over the primary season. Trying to vet him as if he is one of the 9-11 terrorist, people are going to look upon that approach with discourse.

  243. 247 Julie P
    October 27, 2008 at 01:13

    @Dan,

    It may be true that Clinton signed signed into law, along with a Republican Congress, an act that set the stage for the current economic circumstances, but there has been eight years to correct that. There has been a Republican dominated House and Senate for six of the last eight years, (and did nothing) with the last two with a split Senate and even though there are more Democrats in Congress there are not enough to get through anything meaningful. Bush vetoes and there are not enough Democrats to override it. Nothing can/could get done.

  244. 249 Jonathan
    October 27, 2008 at 01:38

    @Julie~

    You are so well “linked up!” (I especially like the ones that don’t involve flame throwers.) And you remember President Polk; so few do anymore. :-)

    @Kelsie

    Well, the Senate is also known as the “saucer” that cools off the hot output of the House. Lower attendance = better cooling. My favorite self-awarded moniker is Homo sapiens sapiens. Pretty presumptuous.

    @2012/Second term/economy

    By 2012, the economy should be booming nicely, to the benefit of the incumbent president. It’s better to start the term with a bad economy and have it improve (Reagan) than have it head south (Carter and Bush I).

  245. 250 Jonathan
    October 27, 2008 at 01:46

    @Dan

    OK, I’ll bite–you know you want to say it: WHAT “act?”

    @Kelsie

    Yeah, McCain gets a lot of grief about the how-many-houses thing. I guess I’m sympathetic, though, and I’ll tell ya why. He forgets the houses because he is (1) old and (2) rich. Two conditions that most of us hope to enjoy for ourselves someday…. :-)

  246. October 27, 2008 at 01:55

    It is official that Georgia has become a swing state but, and this I just cannot believe Arizona to be put in the yellow column, too? :shock:

    http://www.pollster.com/blogs/az_mccain_44_obama_42_zimmerma.php

    Obama, without campaigning is within 2 points of McCain!? Whoa!

  247. 252 Julie P
    October 27, 2008 at 02:13

    Atlanta-based InsiderAdvantage released a poll Friday morning showing Obama leading McCain 48 percent to 47 percent, with 2 percent voting for another candidate and 3 percent undecided. Given the 3.8 percentage point margin of error, Obama could also be trailing. Still, it is the first poll of the campaign to show McCain behind in a state that George W. Bush won in 2004 with 58 percent of the vote.

    Barack Obama’s campaign, sensing a tightening race, is sending 100 volunteers from other states to rally Georgians to the polls in the final 10 days.

    The 100 new Obama volunteers coming here will supplement an existing cadre of nearly 5,000 volunteers already trained and working here, Adelman said. They will have a singular mission: getting voters to the polls, which, in campaign parlance, is known as GOTV, for “get out the vote.”

    http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/stories/2008/10/24/georgia_obama_volunteers.html

  248. 253 Jonathan
    October 27, 2008 at 02:26

    @Will

    Evidently you are not aware of the directive now in force: The term “swing states,” with its frivolous musical and sexual associations, has been replaced by the better term “battleground states” in keeping with the more martial spirit of this new century.

    Thank you for your anticipated cooperation with the new regime.

    The Zeitgeist Enforcement Bureau
    “Better wording means better thinking.”

  249. 254 Julie P
    October 27, 2008 at 02:50

    Yeah, Jonathon, he also meant to say blood bath.

  250. 255 Kelsie in Houston
    October 27, 2008 at 02:50

    This is sounding worse.

    @Jonathan re: McCain’s houses—
    Oh very good point…

  251. 256 Roberto
    October 27, 2008 at 02:55

    RE ” Papa Bush lost because he was the president during the 1992 recession “”
    —————————————————————————————————–

    ——- Pops was at least a popular wartime prez. Junior only has his “mission accomplished” task of completely screwing up the world.

    Now, as to this notion about senate votes. Nothing passes in congress without bipartisan support, and McCain and Obama vote with each other approx 80% of the time I would speculate with McCain closer to dems than Obama is to reps..

    Obama brings home the bacon for Illinois, McCain for Arizona……Sorted.

    Talked to a loyal Obama campaigner across the street. He ain’t buying poll leads and will be going to Denver with expenses paid for the final push next week. Sitting on leads ain’t gonna cut it this time.

    Grunt time coming up.

  252. 257 Jennifer
    October 27, 2008 at 03:17

    “What this means is that you cannot punish one political Party for the economic crisis. You can only decide which Party can better fix it.”

    —I wish I would have said that ’cause that’s what this should be about.

    I have heard Obama say so many things and go back on them. As for Obama being an American, maybe he is but I don’t relate to him in the slightest bit. He stands for nothing I believe in. I feel that he is insincere and would say anything at all to be President. He is trying to buy the presidency.

    You say that McCain voted with Bush 90% of the time…..did you get that information from Obama’s commercial??? haha…..Well, if you will notice during the last debate, which I assume gave Obama his desire to run that ad, Obama truly did falter. He has no experience and he is unable to take a position and stick with it maybe because then he’d be unpopular!

    As far as I am concerned, connections are connections. People can not be buddies with someone as long as it’s approved then drop them when it turns unpopular for their motives. Does that show any set of values? No; just I’ll do what I need to do to get what I want- a snake.

    As far as I am concerned regarding negativity-this is an election. They are not supposed to be dishing out compliments. I can wear protective clothing and they can sling mud. It’s how we will see the differences between Obama and McCain.

  253. 258 Jonathan
    October 27, 2008 at 03:36

    @Roberto

    Yes, Bush I looks like blinkin’ Thomas Jefferson compared to the wayward son.

  254. 259 Kelsie in Houston
    October 27, 2008 at 03:39

    You say that McCain voted with Bush 90% of the time…..did you get that information from Obama’s commercial??? haha…..Well, if you will notice during the last debate, which I assume gave Obama his desire to run that ad, Obama truly did falter. He has no experience and he is unable to take a position and stick with it maybe because then he’d be unpopular!

    That’s a total non sequitur, Jennifer—you’re grasping at very thin straws once again. You obviously ignored Julie’s links on the issue, since they would debunk this already weak GOP “counterattack” handily.

  255. 260 Jennifer
    October 27, 2008 at 03:44

    @ Jonathon

    I don’t have 4 minutes I can give with sound. As soon as I can, I will watch the video.

    I suggest you go back and look at what Obama wants to spend to get all of his programs started including his health care program. I have two words for you: NO WAY! If you are in the deficit do you go out and spend? No, you scale back on what you do until you are back in the green. You don’t go out and tax people to give it to other people because they deserve it to. Do they really deserve it? I think I work pretty hard and I deserve what I work for. I don’t want to be told you’ll take this health insurance and it be crumby and way too much for myself to the extent I overpay just so the elderly now can benefit. Will those programs even be around when I am in need of them?

  256. 261 Kelsie in Houston
    October 27, 2008 at 03:53

    @Jennifer

    As far as I am concerned regarding negativity-this is an election. They are not supposed to be dishing out compliments. I can wear protective clothing and they can sling mud.
    Is that not the stance most of us have taken vis-á-vis your contentions?

  257. 262 Kelsie in Houston
    October 27, 2008 at 03:54

    @Jennifer
    And not to be pedantic, but could you please do Jonathan the respect of spelling his name correctly?

  258. 264 Julie P
    October 27, 2008 at 03:59

    @Jennifer,

    “I don’t want to be told you’ll take this health insurance and it be crumby and way too much for myself to the extent I overpay just so the elderly now can benefit.”

    Excuse me, but my parents worked hard all of their lives. They have paid taxes all of their lives. Now they are retired and old. My parents are in the 70’s, with my father pushing 80. Both of them have health problems, but they are no longer covered under private health insurance, so they, like many old Americans require Medicare to provide them with health coverage. So, you want to abandon the old and sick, a group that cannot defend themselves. Let me tell you, Jennifer, they paid their dues to society more than any group of people of living. Period. So, now you want to abandon them because it takes money from you/! Well, boohoo! They earned it, they deserve it, they need it, and they are going to get it. Truly your comment is vile and insensitive. I could care less about your money.

  259. 265 Jonathan
    October 27, 2008 at 03:59

    @Jennifer~

    And do you have enough minutes to tell me why you supposedly supported Hillary Clinton?

    There is simply not an argument to be had about fiscal policy in a recession, so we won’t have one. That will save a few minutes.

    I agree that you deserve to keep more of the money you earn. If you’re young, your skepticism about Social Security and Medicare is well founded, as is your loathing of wealth redistribution.

    Obama’s health insurance would let you keep your current insurance if you wish. He has said so many times. Of course you can say you don’t believe him, but since we can’t see inside human souls, we can only go by what they say. He has reversed himself a great deal less than McCain has.

  260. 266 Jonathan
    October 27, 2008 at 05:20

    @Julie~

    Oh, no, no, no. That’s just way out of bounds. We all have parents. If yours are “abandoned,” it’s not by Jennifer, who gave you no cause for your noisy personal offense. (Not at 3:44 anyway.)

    If we couldn’t talk about anything that might affect anyone, or anyone’s parents, children, friends, lovers, or acquaintances, we wouldn’t say anything at all. Jennifer’s concern about the future of Social Seccurity and Medicare is entirely corect; they simply cannot go on as they have for much longer. But even when she is wrong, she has a right to air her opinion without being assailed as “vile and insensitive.”

    If you’re going to get all huffy and puffy about anything that might possibly affect your parents, that will either remove any possibility of discussing fiscal or social issues here, or it will remove you from such discussion.

    Finally: (1) You probably mean you couldn’t care less, although your tone suggests otherwise. (2) Kindly spell my name right, should you have occasion to use it again.

  261. 267 Paul Coletti
    October 27, 2008 at 06:25

    On the subject of the credit crunch my favourite humourist, the cartoonist Scott Adams, has published his nine-point guide for avoiding the global downturn. It’s right here but I’ve pasted his tips below….

    1. Make a will.
    2. Pay off your credit cards.
    3. Get term life insurance if you have a family to support.
    4. Fund your 401(k) to the maximum.
    5. Fund your IRA to the maximum.
    6. Buy a house if you want to live in a house and can afford it.
    7. Put six months’ worth of expenses in a money market account.
    8. Take whatever money is left over and invest 70% in a stock index fund and 30% in a bond fund through any discount broker, and never touch it until retirement.
    9. If any of this confuses you, or if you have something special going on (retirement, college planning, tax issues), hire a fee-based financial planner.

    What do you make of it? Sounds sensible to me

    On the subject of TV shows . . I cannot belive no US-WHYSERs have mentioned the Awesome “The Wire”.

  262. 268 Pangolin-California
    October 27, 2008 at 06:36

    Jonathan~ What the heck is wrong with wealth distribution? The vast majority of the “wealth” that we call a civilization is essentially gifted upon us by our ancestors. My generation didn’t have to wake up one morning at age 13 and figure out how to grow wheat from all the vast numbers of grass seeds available.

    If it isn’t obvious by now the current economic system is just as likely to distribute wealth to crooks and idiots as it is to give it to those who can allocate resources for a given set of risks and get a fair return. Check your GM stock if you disagree.

    The only problem with wealth redistribution is that after a point it doesn’t work that well. The US isn’t anywhere near that point.

  263. 269 Bob in Queensland
    October 27, 2008 at 07:06

    @ Will

    Re: Proposed Aussie internet restrictions

    ….the Aussies don’t seem to learn.

    Back in 1999/2000 the then government passed a law making ISPs responsible for eliminating porn. A high profile provider of a porn webcam in Perth, Western Australia published a list of over 4000 people using government web addresses to access her site!

    When her information was challenged, she POSTED AGAIN inviting the Communications Minister to come and check the credit card details for all the accounts.

    That law died a quiet death, especially as the other thing on the porn queen’s site was instructions in how to use proxy servers.

    Joking aside, the internet is under attack in many countries….it’s something that needs watching

  264. 270 Tom D Ford
    October 27, 2008 at 07:07

    @ Luz Ma from Mexico October 26, 2008 at 4:46 pm

    “Yes, I agree with you.

    My nun teachers were a “rare bunch”. Most of them were very loving and sweet. There was not yelling, corporal punishment or the sorts in my school. We didn’t pray a lot either, just small prayers along the day (in the morning, the Angelus and before leaving school). Charity was a big issue for them. And they didn’t discriminate against children from divorced parents or single mothers (other Catholic schools do not allow the enrollment of this type of children).

    I was very lucky, I learned a lot from them about respect, love and tolerance.”

    I honor you and them, I am humbled.

    Luz Ma. You teach by your example.

  265. 271 Pangolin-California
    October 27, 2008 at 07:44

    Jonathan~ But even when she is wrong, she has a right to air her opinion without being assailed as “vile and insensitive.”

    I have to agree that the current US standard of leaving those less fortunate by accident of birth, genetics, or chance to rot is “vile and insensitive.” That would accurately describe Jennifer’s position on health care and social welfare programs.

    It is just as “vile and insensitive” as a crowd of poor people cheering some rich bastard trapped in a burning manse; and for the exact same reason. The gross misfortune of others does not improve oneself. The sharing of a portion of every person’s wealth in exchange for a guarantee of a minimal standard of living and care is a fair trade.

  266. October 27, 2008 at 08:12

    Altogether, One Banner!
    TEHRAN – Some fourty five freedom movements gathered at the Enghelab Hotel for change in Tehran in 1979. Many of them from the MORO Front, PLO, Arabian Peninsula, Europe and Asia have carved a place for themselves in their own little corner of the world.
    Thirty years on, time to unite! One banner, Aegis of the Lord the King His Grace! Let every man, woman and child stand their ground. Fatah, Hamas, Hezbollah, Shiites, Sunnis, Kurds, Armenians, Arabs, Indians, Chinese, from the Horn of Africa to Southeast Asia, united for peace, common sense, versus aggression, foreign occupation and heedless carnage.

  267. 273 Pangolin-California
    October 27, 2008 at 09:00

    Bob~ It appears that Australian porn is alive and healthy. I checked. The idiot attempts at censorship don’t do anything to eliminate the more unsavory aspects of human life; they just paper it over like a dead body papered to the wall of the parlor. Everyone can smell the stench but we are all to polite to discuss ways to remove the source.

    Nothing wrong with naked bodies. Everybody owns at least one. There are lots of things wrong with various forms of coercion, abuse and neglect that don’t go away because we eliminate the images of same. Most adults in the US have seen a picture of a naked little girl, running away from an American napalm attack in Vietnam that melted part of her skin. The new censorship laws would ban the picture that stopped a war.

    The law enforcement groups who monitor the original sites of the more gross porn will never eliminate them for the same reason that they can’t eliminate prostitution; they enjoy their research too much to eliminate the subject.

  268. 274 Jonathan
    October 27, 2008 at 09:01

    @Paul

    Sounds like good advice to me, other than that it cheerfully assumes we have a couple of hundred grand stuffed in a duffel bag and are awaiting his advice for its dispolition. For most of us, that’s not the problem at hand. I did mention The Wire as one of my favorite shows, along with Mad Men and Breaking Bad and a few others.

  269. 275 Jonathan
    October 27, 2008 at 10:09

    @Pangolin

    Hey dude, I hope the weather is as fabulous where you are as it is here.

    Why duz we gotta keep going round about the silly socialism? What you’re asking is, What’s wrong with seizing money from people who earn it. The answers fall into two broad categories.

    Morally, stealing is wrong. Forget about how wonderful it is, or how things “should” be. A deluded thief who imagines theft to help “society” is still just a thief.

    Pragmatically, it doesn’t work. It doesn’t help poor people to make everyone poor. We needn’t argue theory when we can examine reality. Look up China until a few years ago, or Cuba now. When everybody is equal, everybody is poor. Period.

    Reluctance to part with half of every dollar one earns is not at all like watching somebody burn to death. How do you come up with this stuff?

  270. 276 Dan
    October 27, 2008 at 10:35

    @Julie P October 27, 2008 at 1:13 am
    There was nothing to “correct” as none of the nuclear rocket scientists we call politicians understood what they had done in 2000.
    As this all started to unravel we had a Democrat controlled Congress that still could not understand what was happening and still did nothing.

  271. 277 Bob in Queensland
    October 27, 2008 at 10:51

    @ Jonathan

    What a difference some words make! “Stealing money from those who earn it” is a horrible, nasty unfair thing to do. I’d put those politicians that advocate it in jail if I were you! Oh, hang on…those jails are funded by taxation because politicians, acting on our behalf, have judged that spending public money on keeping criminals out of circulation is a worthwhile practice.

    So, if instead of “stealing” we used the more accurate word “taxing” is that more acceptable? I know your feelings about keeping the government out of things but surely there are some activities better handled centrally. Would you trust the profit motive to fund disaster relief or even simple things like fixing the pothole in the road in front of your house?

    Well, in this instance we’re talking about health care. Private health care works great when you’re young, healthy and employed and don’t need much health care. Try and get cover when you’re old or have a pre-existing condition though. Forget it. Yeah, there’s medicare–but to get it you have to dispose of all your assets and bankrupt yourself first. That’s why it makes sense to pay a bit extra now while you’re young and healthy…then reap the benefit when you…or Jennifer or whoever…are the older person with a pre-existing condition. If we call it “insurance” or “an investment in the future” does that sound better than “stealing” or “socialism”?

  272. October 27, 2008 at 11:38

    Hi Brett
    Reyr October 24, 2008 at 7:22 pm
    Your comment is somewhat harsh. The realities of the oil industry are perhaps not evident when we consider $140 per barrel prices in July.
    The upstream oil industry is a high-tech, heavy investment sector. South Pars LNG required $12 billion investment: Not everyone has got that sort of money. Big money goes after big profits.
    Iran, Venezuela and many other oil producers need help to modernize and revamp their upstream oil and gas industries.
    Russia may have further destablized the market with its high-handed attitude to European energy needs last winter.
    Should BP have invested so heavily in the Russian market? this is also a dilemma since we lsot a valuable customer.
    The aftermath of high prices is pretty bleak since we have spent all we earned and will register a $54 billion budget deficit for the current year. Lastly, it would be naive to suggest high oil prices caused the current international recession since far more important issues were at stake, although high energy prices didn’t help.

  273. 279 Dan
    October 27, 2008 at 12:06

    @Jonathan October 27, 2008 at 1:46 am
    Commodities Futures Trading Act of 2000

  274. 280 Jennifer
    October 27, 2008 at 12:23

    @ Julie P

    You might want to go back and watch the 3rd debate again if you are concerned for your parents…..Obama said if he had to cut something he would cut out aid for the elderly!!!! Oops..You are more than welcome to find my comments “insensitive and vile”. Seeing as you are not the only person on this earth with parents and grandparents; it’s nice that you are so concerned about this problem. We have programs now that could be reformed and fixed. We don’t need to spend money to change to something new; we need to work with what we have. My grandmother takes medication that she does not always have the money for and I have paid for it myself. Waiting while a new program is implemented is not an option for her.

    @ Jonathan (spelled correctly!)

    I DO apologize greatly for misspelling your name as was brought to my attention! I assure you that today I will watch the video that you posted. I was babysitting and there was no way to do that right next to a sleeping baby without disturbing sweet dreams.

  275. October 27, 2008 at 12:28

    Ex-Shahdow Minister Davis: End Unconditional Support for Karzai
    TEHRAN – Should an ex–shadow home secretary suggest undermining and scuttling the presidency of Hamid Karzai of Afghanistan? Is it possible that anyone could be so irresponsible?
    NATO, EU, US, China, India and Iran amongst others, are involved, and here we have the supposedly knowledgeable David Davis suggesting ending “western governments unconditional support for Hamid Karzai,” according to http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7687240.stm
    In all my years that I have followed Afghan issues from next door, I have failed to see a clear picture of what’s happening or the people involved – including feudal warlords, Taliban, a–Qaeda, and Pakistan.
    British troops will be sent to Afghanistan in due course, according to the Government, but with specific orders, which don’t include scuttling Kabul government or any other government.

  276. 282 Julie P
    October 27, 2008 at 12:40

    @Jennifer,

    Your comment is vile and insensitive. Your comment read:

    “I overpay just so the elderly now can benefit.”

    That is incredibly selfish. You can make any claim that you want about paying for your grandmother’s medication, or Obama, but the truth is you do not care about the elderly, you only care about yourself and your money. Your comment proves that.

  277. 283 Jonathan
    October 27, 2008 at 12:58

    @Akbar

    With respect, we are not in the “aftermath of high oil prices.” A few years ago, the stuff cost $20 a barrel. It now costs $70. That’s a 350% increase, irrespective of the fact that it spent at few months at $140. It would be “naive,” and absurd, to imagine that this would not cause a recession in the developed world, irrespective of a more or less coincident credit crisis. The price spike was due more to a demand spike than to the rapacious producers’ cartel.

    @Jennifer~

    You’re up late! “Disturbing sweet dreams,” that’s so darn sweet! Not a problem. Obama’s audiences are huge, but his supporters are polite and they don’t scream for bloody murder. :-) You usually get my name right and you’re always gracious when you don’t. Again, no problem.

  278. 284 Kelsie in Houston
    October 27, 2008 at 12:58

    Alleged US raid into Syria taps fears in Iran—if proven, will this raid further destabilize relations between the coalition and regional states?

  279. 285 Julie P
    October 27, 2008 at 13:00

    In the third debate when BOTH candidates were asked how they were going to pay for their plans Obama’s response was and I quote;

    “OBAMA: And some of the cuts, just to give you an example, we spend $15 billion a year on subsidies to insurance companies. It doesn’t — under the Medicare plan — it doesn’t help seniors get any better. It’s not improving our health care system. It’s just a giveaway.”

    Jennifer, he was talking about insurance companies.

  280. 286 Dan
    October 27, 2008 at 13:08

    Kelsie in Houston October 27, 2008 at 12:58 pm
    Coalition!!?? Which coalition are you talking about?
    If the raid is proven true and after listening to the Syrian Ambassador their protest smells too bad to be put into a landfill, it will just tell the cross border terrorists that there is no hiding places.

  281. October 27, 2008 at 13:28

    Hi Jonathan
    Reyr October 27, 2008 at 12:58 pm posting
    some ten years ago oil was selling at $12 per barrel but drilling and extracting have also become expensive.
    Much of high oil prices has been absorbed by arms sales to littoral Gulf states. US is on a $20 billion fighter jet accord with the Saudis with a similar contract going to the Brits. France is also in the market.
    We shouldn’t lose sight of the realities, no one is buying because the production line is at a standstill.
    What I am trying to say is that confidence and foresight are lacking since we can’t balance the books and oil market are saturated with supplies.

  282. 288 Jonathan
    October 27, 2008 at 14:01

    @Bob
    You’re picking the wrong fight with the wrong guy, Bob, and you’re misrepresenting my positions along the way. I didn’t say that the government shouldn’t maintain a justice system. I didn’t say that health insurance was socialistic, even if we pay for it with tax dollars instead of premium dollars. I did say that Social Security and Medicare won’t be able to function much longer as now structured. That’s not my ideology; I don’t even like it. But it’s true.

    Just as you were misinformed about college costs, you are misinformed about health insurance. It is, in fact, available for the elderly, and for long-term care, and even for pre-existing conditions. It is expensive because health care is expensive. Further government involvement might not improve that circumstance, as government endeavors are not usually notable for efficiency. My mind is open to honest, informed discussion, if I can find any. (My perpetual argument with Pangolin about the wisdom of eating the rich is worlds away from any of this.)

    Since you mention them, potholes and disaster relief are vivid examples of government failures. Thanks! K-12 education is a more important one. What can I say? Private garbage service is unimaginable in Chicago but routine–and of course much better–in San Francisco.

  283. 289 Robert
    October 27, 2008 at 14:03

    Jonathan

    The high prices are partly due to the demand, but also more due to the cheap prices of the 90’s. During that decade many skilled engineers and subsurface people left the industry, no money in it compared to banking was a common reason.

    Now as a result there is a sever shortage of people in the industry. There is plenty of money around to build new facilities and wells, but nowhere near enough people to do the work.

  284. 290 Jennifer
    October 27, 2008 at 14:13

    @ Julie P

    Think what you will about my comment being vile or insensitive and think that you know me but you don’t. How are your parents protected when these programs may or may not happen. Do they have years to wait around and money sat aside until he decides people can benefit? What do businesses do when they loose earnings…..find a way to make up for it. Not to mention all of the people who will loose jobs because of that…. We are talking about politicians here….they are not miracle workers. Please!!

    Go back and look at what Obama said he would cut in the last debate! ;)

    @ Jonathan

    No, I am up early! I didn’t want to risk it last night…..he had just went to sleep and would have probably woke up and refused to go back to sleep. Every time he stays with me I have the hardest time getting him to sleep.

    HAHA at Obama’s supporters being polite and not screaming bloody murder!

  285. 291 Jonathan
    October 27, 2008 at 14:17

    @Akbar

    I still don’t see your point. Selling airplanes does not mitigate the destructive effects of a 900% oil price increase, or as you say, “absorb” it. The price of drilling equipment did not cause it. Saudi Arabia’s production is finally diminishing, and Asia’s demand is growing; the pause that started about a month ago will be temporary.

    If your country would allow itself to rejoin the civilized world, our oil companies would arrive in a heartbeat, with endless capital and boatloads of equipment to assist your production of “black gold” before we invent a substitute for the stuff. I assume that’s an outcome we both desire.

  286. 292 DENNIS@OCC
    October 27, 2008 at 14:20

    Hi, Helen and the rest of the world…

    Re: It time differences again…
    why can’t we get rid of them forever…

    Re: RECESSION
    i think it is going to be not a good thing….the markets are dropping…

    Dennis

  287. 293 Kelsie in Houston
    October 27, 2008 at 14:25

    “What do businesses do when they loose [sic] earnings…..”

    Stretch out their hands to the US government.

  288. 294 Jonathan
    October 27, 2008 at 14:27

    @Robert

    Yes, I’ve heard about the exodus of trained personnel from the oil industry when prices were depressed; no surprise there, although I wonder how many geologists actually took up work in banking as you suggest. Oil company stocks of course were also way down. But that in itself wouldn’t cause prices to go from $12 to $140.

    My biggest question is exactly why the price went so far down and stayed there for so long. Do you know?

    My second-biggest question is why I’m the only person asking my first question. No congressional investigations or wacky conspiracy theories when the price goes down, only when it goes up. Very strange stuff.

  289. 295 Kelsie in Houston
    October 27, 2008 at 14:28

    @Dan:
    I should rephrase that a bit—the question I have is this: with the Pakistani and now Syrian governments claiming (truthfully, it would seem, in Pakistan’s case) violations of their territorial sovereignty, will this destabilize the overall work of the coalition as a whole? Will nations friendly to the coalition become increasingly more suspicious that their own sovereignty might be sacrificed in the name of expediency?

    I do not view this as a positive development: the fall-out for US foreign policy in regions affected by the “war on terror” will be increasingly grave if the American-led coalition are seen as cavalier with territorial integrity whenever it suits their purposes.

  290. 296 Julie P
    October 27, 2008 at 14:30

    @Jennifer,

    I provided you with the actual words that Obama said in the debate, but you refute. It really goes to show your comprehension level.

    Here is what he said in the last debate:

    “OBAMA: And some of the cuts, just to give you an example, we spend $15 billion a year on subsidies to insurance companies. It doesn’t — under the Medicare plan — it doesn’t help seniors get any better. It’s not improving our health care system. It’s just a giveaway.”

    It’s about insurance companies, Jennifer. Really, Jennifer, you made the ignorant comment, not Obama. Now you are trying to blame him for your gaffe.

    Here’s the entire transcript from the debate.

    http://www.debates.org/pages/trans2008d.html

    That’s right, Jennifer I don’t know you, but your comment says everything I need to know about you. You only care about yourself and your money.

    “I overpay just so the elderly now can benefit.”

  291. 297 selena in Canada
    October 27, 2008 at 14:48

    @Jonathan

    I wonder how many geologists actually took up work in banking as you suggest

    I don’t know about geologists but I know a physicist who became a financial adviser.

    And the funniest (strangest) thing of all is someone I know with no post-secondary education went to work for one of the big financial companies last week. Is now the time to be getting into the business? Is everyone fleeing the sinking ships?

    BTW, this is the second adviser I know who has no post secondary education. My husband says, “Why do you need education when you just have to do what you are told?”

    Is this the norm?

  292. October 27, 2008 at 15:02

    @ Julie:
    That’s right, Jennifer I don’t know you, but your comment says everything I need to know about you. You only care about yourself and your money.

    “I overpay just so the elderly now can benefit.”

    It’s ok, let her get old then decide she wants to embrace a more [as the righties chose to label it] “S-word” stance, when her retirement / investment plans give out like so many others.
    Better A) start popping out plenty of little ones to take care of you when you get old or B) Do unto others as you would like done to you and hope society doesn’t decide to take the same stance as you when your the one getting old ;)

  293. 299 Jennifer
    October 27, 2008 at 15:46

    @ Julie

    Really Julie, I don’t “refute” anything! HAHA poor Mr. Obama….being blamed for my “gaffe”…excuse me while I go cry……I am sensitive but not that sensitive! haha ;) As for your opinion about me…it might matter if I cared.

    In trying to make yourself the “winner” of this little spat, you are trying to portray me as heartless and without care for anyone except myself. I hate to tell you this but I am well aware of the fact that I will one day no longer be 23. My family is effected by the problems your parents face also. It’s odd…my grandma is voting for the first time in her life in this election…she’s in her 60s….and she’s not voting for Obama. I am also a social worker…..and yes, that is a very heartless field to work in!

    If we elect someone into office who is only interested in spending money and creating new programs there will be nothing for anyone! You think a quick fix is going to cut it over the long run? If you believe like most people do; that things will be rough in the future because of our economy, then they will only be that much worse when Obama has a shopping spree when he should be sucking it up.

    @ Brett

    You really should think farther than the end of your nose. Unless something is done to correct the problems we have with programs now; I don’t see anyone getting ANY help in the future. We will suck the government dry of everything unless we scale back, make some changes, and “go from there” ….Dear Lord help me,I am talking like Obama now!! haha 23 is pretty young….I still have a ways to go before I am “old”. My grandma on the other hand is in her 60s……she needs some security now; not a quick fix, not forced health care, and not a promise that might not happen if it’s something Obama decides to cut.
    _____________________________________

    http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/content/full/hlthaff.27.6.w462/DC1

  294. 300 Jonathan
    October 27, 2008 at 15:53

    @Julie, Brett, et alia

    “My grandmother takes medication that she does not always have the money for and I have paid for it myself. Waiting while a new program is implemented is not an option for her.”

    Strange, but this just doesn’t seem “incredibly selfish” to me. Or vile, horrible, greedy, or evidence of caring only about oneself and one’s money. I must be missing something here. I get a picture of a concerned, generous grandchild and a grandmother who might not feel so, um, abandoned.

    What twisted moral code holds that giving one’s own money to one’s own grandmother is reprehensible, while a declaration that other people should be forced to give their money to strangers, and of course to the inevitable vast administrative structure, is noble and admirable and unselfish? Then, what sort of manners would compel one to give voice to this implausible, unpleasant delusion?

  295. 301 Julie P
    October 27, 2008 at 15:59

    @Jennifer,

    I am not debating you or anyone on National Healthcare. I am calling you out for your ignorant comment that you blame Obama for. I proved your comment wrong about what you claim Obama said. You are trying to change the debate to something else.

    “I overpay just so the elderly now can benefit.”

  296. October 27, 2008 at 15:59

    Jennifer:
    You really should think farther than the end of your nose.

    Sounds like you need to get that chip off of your shoulder, Jennifer. Please explain how I am thinking short of the end of my nose if you feel that way. My comment seems to be quite a bit less self centered and self serving than the one you made which Julie and I were touching on.

  297. 303 Jessica in NYC
    October 27, 2008 at 16:00

    Oh, it’s looks like a missed some interesting conversations this weekend.

    @ Tom & Luz Ma,

    I am disappointed I missed my oppertunity to show off my scripture teachings. Maybe another time.

    @ Kelsie, Julie & Bret,

    LOL– Keep up the fight against ignorance. Somethings I just cannot waste any time on.

    @ Lubna
    We only had 1 television growing up, so unless I wanted to watch what the adults were watching I was out of luck. I was never one for watching much tv growing up, I’d much preferred to be outside getting into trouble. As an adult, I am rarely home in time to watch shows that air on prime time (which include almost everything you mentioned). However, since I am an insomniac I have seem almost all the shows that made it to syndication, because they rerun late at night. I like comedies especially the ones that make fun of how New Yorkers and big city people live, especially British ones.

  298. 304 Julie P
    October 27, 2008 at 16:03

    @Jess,

    “Keep up the fight against ignorance. Somethings I just cannot waste any time on.”

    I’m through with her ignorance. She has been proven wrong with facts and will not accept responsibility for it.

  299. 305 Kelsie in Houston
    October 27, 2008 at 16:12

    @Jess:
    Hehe—just restating the facts, ma’am.

  300. 306 Jessica in NYC
    October 27, 2008 at 16:15

    @ Jens

    Silly me, I forgot that people outside the city actually have huge yards with trees ten times the size of my apartment. Any chance of nailing the sign down, taping, or gluing it? I know non of these are permanent, but at least make the thieves work at removing the sign.

    I once caught a thief stealing my crayons in (1st or 2nd grade) by rubbing poison ivy on the box and putting some leaves inside the box.

  301. October 27, 2008 at 16:17

    Jonathan:
    I must be missing something here. I get a picture of a concerned, generous grandchild and a grandmother who might not feel so, um, abandoned.

    What twisted moral code holds that giving one’s own money to one’s own grandmother is reprehensible, while a declaration that other people should be forced to give their money to strangers, and of course to the inevitable vast administrative structure, is noble and admirable and unselfish? Then, what sort of manners would compel one to give voice to this implausible, unpleasant delusion?

    There is a difference between taking care of family (which yes, is noble, concerned, unselfish, etc), and being bitter and selfish in regards to helping others (often times when you yourself and the ones you love are dependent upon the same help from others outside of your family, in this case, other taxpayers to assist in paying elderly benefits).
    In this regard, her comment of “I overpay just so the elderly now can benefit.” was, yes, shortsighted and selfish given that same concern for her own grandma but no one elses.

  302. 308 Jennifer
    October 27, 2008 at 16:18

    @ Jonathan

    Oh yes, I am an ungrateful, mean child/ grandchild! You caught me. ;)

    @ Julie

    I didn’t blame Obama. I called into question one of the negative aspects of his health care plan. You chose to make it personal and instead of going the route of discussing the issue to peg me as heartless. Instead of seeing my perspective it was easier to discount it by attacking me. It’s ok if you need to do that. People who know me know better.

    @ Brett

    No chip on my shoulder;I am simply being realistic. You, along with most people on this blog, seem to think that there is a quick fix to helping people. People have always struggled with making ends meet. Things are not different now. However, we need to realize that it’s not just about fix it now and it’ll all be ok. There is no quick fix.
    ___

    Re: Fighting against ignorance

    No doubt about it, tiptoeing through the tulips is pretty time consuming! And from someone who won’t even address a person directly! HA!

  303. October 27, 2008 at 16:22

    Jennifer:
    No chip on my shoulder;I am simply being realistic. You, along with most people on this blog, seem to think that there is a quick fix to helping people. People have always struggled with making ends meet. Things are not different now. However, we need to realize that it’s not just about fix it now and it’ll all be ok. There is no quick fix.

    I have never claimed or argued for a quick-fix for healthcare or anything relating to that. I’m sorry if you care to lump me in with a poorly administered generalization on your part, which does nothing but weaken further your legitimacy in this argument.

  304. 310 Roberto
    October 27, 2008 at 16:26

    RE “” violations of their territorial sovereignty “”
    —————————————————————————————————-

    ———— Bit of an archaic concept, sovereignty, don’t you think?

    US has already conceded “sovereign” portions of the US to illegal immigrants.

    Al Qaeda recognizes no sovereignty, and indeed, claims none for itself, instead proclaiming the entire globe under the sovereignty of Allah and his messenger Mohammed.

    US targets terrorist encampment in Syria. Not exactly breaking news any more is it? Sorta like stock markets continue to crash, Sunni/Shiite blow up each other’s mosques, Palestinian rock throwing teen killed by Israelis.

    Maybe some might ask what women and children are doing living on a construction site, munitions safehouses, and caves in the middle of nowhere, but, why bother now?

    We already know the 100 year war and depression is on us. It’s the rerun season of past world history…..cheerio now….

  305. 311 Kelsie in Houston
    October 27, 2008 at 16:27

    @Jennifer:
    After lambasting most of us for generalising, launching one of your own is patently absurd: “You, along with most people on this blog, seem to think that there is a quick fix to helping people.”

  306. October 27, 2008 at 16:28

    And for the record I acknowledge that there are many problems in the healthcare system which needs to be addressed, it will not be quick, it will not be easy.

  307. 313 Bob in Queensland
    October 27, 2008 at 16:29

    ….but every journey starts with a single step!

    (to coin a cliche!)

  308. 314 Jessica in NYC
    October 27, 2008 at 16:33

    @ Julie

    “I’m through with her ignorance. She has been proven wrong with facts and will not accept responsibility for it.”

    A trick mastered by most republicans. I learned to talk in circles with republicans, especially when we cannot agree on the premise for the discussion. It can be very entertaining. Especially if they are friends or relatives.
    ——

    @ Kelsie

    “Hehe—just restating the facts, ma’am.”

    And you do it so well, sir.

  309. 315 Jonathan
    October 27, 2008 at 16:39

    @Brett

    Hmmm. OK, so taking care of one’s own family is noble (which opinion you do not share with Julie P., in either word or deed, by the way), but one is still “selfish” until redeemed by “concern” for every single grandmother in the whole wide world. Spoken concern, that is; no actual involvement is required. In fact one can have “abandoned” one’s own parents and still retain the moral high ground (and fling contumely therefrom upon the less enlightened) by simply uttering the proper grunts of “concern,” which only requires one to SAY how good it would be to extract lots of money from everybody to go to everybody else.

    I get it now. Talking about caring is better than actually doing it, and talking about giving other people’s money is much better than giving your own. Unfounded insults to other people counts for extra credit.

    I feel more noble already.

  310. 316 DENNIS
    October 27, 2008 at 16:46

    First off!

    Re: WINTER SCHEDULE… :( it is getting me depressed….

    Re: TIME CHANGED
    it is totally confusing….

    Dennis

  311. 317 Julie P
    October 27, 2008 at 16:51

    @Jennifer,

    You still do not get it. You made an ignorant comment, once you were called out for it you quickly turned it to someone else, Obama, me, the man on the moon.

    “I overpay just so the elderly now can benefit.”

    Really, Jennifer, how do you defend that?

  312. 318 Jennifer
    October 27, 2008 at 16:54

    Brett,

    You rode in on your white horse and came to Julie’s defense without knowing what she was saying. Noone was attacking her for her views however she was having a field day telling me that I was vile and insensitive instead of discussing the issue I presented…….because I made a comment to the effect of why should I have to pay now so that the elderly can benefit? Maybe I should have rephrased that. If I consider this an investment as Obama says…..why should I invest in something that might not be around when I am old enough to utilize it? That “investment” is on shaky ground as it is already! Hence, why my grandma doesn’t think it’s worth a hoot either! It may not even come to pass if he is elected. That’s the real reason Julie got all perturbed….but it’s ok. It was a hole in St. Obama’s plan….I am not sorry I pointed it out! :D

    Legitimacy? Me? Please!!! On this blog? The odds are not in my favor! haha

  313. 319 Kelsie in Houston
    October 27, 2008 at 16:55

    @Roberto:
    US has already conceded “sovereign” portions of the US to illegal immigrants.

    Which portions are those? Do they have legal standing as independent entities? That’s really not a valid comparison, these alleged “concessions” vs. an independent nation like Syria…

    Al Qaeda recognizes no sovereignty, and indeed, claims none for itself,

    So the U.S. should do the same?

    Maybe some might ask what women and children are doing living on a construction site, munitions safehouses, and caves in the middle of nowhere, but, why bother now?

    Thanks to the “Shoot-first-ask-questions-later” mentality, we won’t get to ask now.

    The last people on Earth to feel that “sovereignty” is an archaic concept should be the United States, whose populace is, comparatively, very nationalistic about all elements of “America.”

  314. 320 Kelsie in Houston
    October 27, 2008 at 17:01

    …why should I invest in something that might not be around when I am old enough to utilize it?

    Again, a rather self-centred remark when one considers the issue at hand. On that note, why should, for example, the polity pay taxes to support road construction if those roads might not be completed in time for us to use them, or don’t go to places we deem useful? Supporting our fellow citizens is, imho, a responsibility of living in a society—not a burden.

  315. 321 Kelsie in Houston
    October 27, 2008 at 17:05

    …why should I invest in something that might not be around when I am old enough to utilize it?

    How might the builders of the Great Pyramid or Köln Cathedral react to that?

  316. 322 Jessica in NYC
    October 27, 2008 at 17:13

    @ Jennifer

    “No doubt about it, tiptoeing through the tulips is pretty time consuming! And from someone who won’t even address a person directly! HA!”

    Wow, some chip on that shoulder, from the kettle who enjoys calling others black. Did no one in your church have the decency to teach you about throwing stones in glass houses?

    I have told you many–MANY–times I do not read most of your comments and what I thought of the ones I did. I caught this comment, because I was reading Bret’s comment right below. For the record, it is fun stomping on your tulips when I have the time. Don’t worry, winter is coming and I’ll try to make time to debunk your opinions. Have a very nice day.

  317. 323 Jonathan
    October 27, 2008 at 17:15

    @Kelsie

    By “builders,” you surely mean people who sat in front of computers and TALKED about how somebody else should build the blinkin’ pyramid, and everybody else should pay the bill, right?

    Because people who actually DO something are only to be subjected to withering tirades of insults by people who, well, don’t.

  318. 324 Kelsie in Houston
    October 27, 2008 at 17:21

    @Jonathan:
    Forget the Pyramids, then—Europe is full of cathedrals and universities whose construction may have taken decades, if not centuries. The Kölner Dom, for example, took six centuries to complete. If the people who constructed these awe-inspiring buildings for public use had, during the period of short life expectancies, adopted a materialist, utilitarian attitude akin to, “If I can’t use it before I die, why bother?”, they would not have achieved the architectural greatness millions of people—including this wide-eyed American—marvel at today.

    The churches were, by and large, constructed by ordinary people for purposes of civic and religious (not something with much ground here, I understand) pride. I’m not clear on where your last statement comes from: I am simply countering the idea that we should adopt the stance that whatever has worth must be useful to us as quickly as possible, and that future planning beyond ourselves is not tenable.

  319. October 27, 2008 at 17:25

    You rode in on your white horse and came to Julie’s defense without knowing what she was saying.

    I don’t ride horses, let alone a white one. Could I maybe have driven in with some sort of electric sports-car or something? Horses are so 100 years ago.

    …I knew exactly what she was saying.

  320. 326 Pangolin-California
    October 27, 2008 at 17:26

    Jonathan~ The market failure of private insurance companies is well proven. Socialized medicine provides a better quality of life, for more people, for less money. The only problem with the Social Security system is that we attach the first 15% of the income of the lower classes but not the wealthy. If that tax was applied to all income there would be no problem funding it.

    Of course the funding for Social Security and Medicare “shortfalls” that everyone agonizes over is entirely dependent upon the continuation of the current fiat monetary system rather than any other fiat monetary system. The presumption that economics is somehow on par with physics continues to produce reality defying policies. Economics is fiction; pure and simple.

    Putting the wealthy in charge of the worlds resources without supervision is now in the act of a massive fail. Rather than distribute resources to the betterment of all they just create every more byzantine screens for theft and mis-appropriation.

  321. 327 Jessica in NYC
    October 27, 2008 at 18:02

    @ Bret

    “I don’t ride horses, let alone a white one. Could I maybe have driven in with some sort of electric sports-car or something? Horses are so 100 years ago.”

    Come on Bret, I’m sure you’d look very dashing on a horse. Much to “credit” of the ignorant comment, it failed to recognize that Julie can not only make her point clearly and does not need saving. Thankfully, men on horses and cars are free to have an opinion, too. ;)

  322. 328 Robert
    October 27, 2008 at 18:14

    Jonathan

    Basically over capacity built during the oil shocks of the 70’s lead to oversupply. Throw in a recession in the early eighties and the early nineties and improved efficiency in energy use following the shock all of which lowered demand, and simple economics demand the price collapses. On top of that some countries in OPEC like Saudi and Kuwait figured that low oil prices work in they favour, they can produce oil at $5 a barrel, the North Sea $15 (these figures are at least 10 years old, today you should triple those costs). Low prices destroy the competition, and you just have to look at the mergers from 1997 -2000 to see an industry in trouble.

    Why didn’t people see it coming? Don’t know, but it seems like the same short sightedness that happened in the credit crunch. Most people don’t complain when the price is unsustainable low do they.

    As for geologists etc leaving the industry, probably a more accurate description would be that in the past those that would have previously went into the industry didn’t join and instead went to banking. So strictly speaking there would have been few geologists turned bankers, but a potential geologist did become a banker.

  323. 329 Jennifer
    October 27, 2008 at 18:19

    @ Brett

    Apparently you didn’t because you then went on to say I was generalizing. Maybe in trying not to call out names, I did generalize but it was because I consider that rather tacky. Yes, you can have a sports car if you prefer. Just pick a color and I’ll arrange it! haha

    @ Jessica

    Wow; she speaks! And to me directly! I feel so privelaged! It is my lucky day.

    I have more than likely conveyed my personal feelings as to what I think of you as an individual and also your postings; however, that’s not what this blog is about. I sit my personal feelings aside and read every post you write because I hope that one day maybe they’ll contain a glimmer of something resembling substance. No dice yet. In every post, it’s conservatives, religion, etc., let’s attack a person and play the blame game. Not even relating to other people simply because they are people too without all of those labels you are quick to attach…. Those labels and your eagerness to attach them give away your ignorance.

    You have a very nice day too! :)

  324. 330 Robert
    October 27, 2008 at 18:22

    And to explain why the price rebounded so high. If your operating costs in the North Sea are $15 and the price of oil is just a few cents over that, would you invest? No that’s why few platforms where built, the economics didn’t make sense. Exploration and construction takes time (5 – 10 years). Few new facilities came online during the early part of this decade to replace those that were in decline. Restricted supply. Economy was in a boom increased demand. Prices raise. Oil companies have the money yes, but they are really really restricted on man power, because of the missing generation in the industry. No matter how much money they through at a project, they simply don’t have the manpower to do the jobs and build platforms and drill wells. So lack of manpower leads to lack of supply, increasing the price further.

  325. October 27, 2008 at 18:23

    Comment #2: …Apparently you didn’t because you then went on to say I was generalizing…

    Comment #1:…You, along with most people on this blog, seem to think that there is a quick fix to helping people…

    ?

  326. 332 Jessica in NYC
    October 27, 2008 at 18:47

    @ Jennifer,

    No worries, I do not take offense to your comments. Really! Your education gives way to your inability to understand many issues I and others discuss on this blog. That must be why you idolize Sara Palin so much and an intelligent man like Obama is such a threat to you.

    You are good for a laugh. I hope you always find time to post on this blog.

  327. 333 Roberto
    October 27, 2008 at 18:51

    RE “” The last people on Earth to feel that “sovereignty” is an archaic concept should be the United States, whose populace is, comparatively, very nationalistic about all elements of “America.” “”
    ——————————————————————————————————–

    ——- Now, that’s just silly.

    Last I checked the United States were really Red and Blue States of swarming hordes of illegal immigrants. Hardly anything nationalistic in it until the pols need to be elected by rounding up the red and blue herds for a vote.

  328. 334 Kelsie in Houston
    October 27, 2008 at 18:55

    @Roberto:
    Not sure which America that is—the America I live in obsesses over “Made in the USA” products and boycotts nations (most European) who refuse to kow-tow to American “national interests” abroad.

  329. 335 Jennifer
    October 27, 2008 at 19:36

    @ Jessica

    I realize that there is much hostility on your part with regards to my comments on this blog because my opinions are different from yours. It’s conveyed in the rude, biased, and rather stereotypical comments you make to other people here and the ones you yourself make regarding anyone who is not supporting St. Obama.

    I am glad that you find me funny. There is nothing quite like humor. ;) I find you funny too, but in kind of a scary way if that makes sense. I love your posts like I love Tom D. Ford’s posts. Ahh, the perks of denial! Maybe I am missing out! :(

    Please do feel free to judge, label, stereotype, or peg me to be a certain way anytime you like!

  330. 336 Paul coletti
    October 28, 2008 at 14:25

    Jonathan,
    sorry I missed you mentioning the Wire . . so many comments, when you skim them you miss em. I’ve just watched the final episode of Season #5 with David Simon’s commentary . . .a wonderful ending to a fine show.

    Paul

  331. 337 Jennifer
    October 28, 2008 at 14:26

    @Jonathan

    I wanted to let you know that I did watch the video that you provided a link for…..I can’t say that I really agree with Obama’s position on that. But, I did watch the video. :)

  332. October 29, 2008 at 04:17

    This is a bit long, Matthew

    Jessica in NYC,

    I pointed out to Jennifer on more than one occasion about her misappropriated loyalties and unwitting devotedness to Hilary Clinton. She said she didn’t wish to comment further beyond taking into account the indisputable facts I had laid at her feet re. Hilary.

    She also could not answer why she had fervently placed her loyalties with Hilary before her loss to Obama, and then joined in support of the McCain/Palin ticket, for some strange reason. Is it the reason that she has found a female candidate of some type to support regardless of political party and philosophy of policy.
    It’s a strange one to be sure!
    Here in the UK a helluva lot of people like to see the world in very simplistic black & white terms. So many accept what they’re fed through mainstream media, TV and newspapers. That is why Blair and his pathetic yes men got away with so much. And it was twisted and turned inside out by political spin meister Alastair Campbell. What a truly reprehensible man, who by the way for those who don’t know, started out in such illustrious circles by writing for porn magazines!
    Campbell’s better known for making the Director General of the BBC, Greg Dyke, resign his position in the most unpleasant and threatening manner recently. He sent vicious emails with expletives and the more in his personal attacks and character assassinations, because of the ongoing dispute between the BBC and the government over the illegal invasion of Iraq and “sexed up dossiers” falsifying evidence to allow it to go ahead.
    He’ll get his comeuppance one day, and to me and others it won’t be a moment too soon!

    By the way, just in case you couldn’t tell, I want Barack Obama to be the first (and certainly a long time in coming) black president of America as well as your new leader. He appears statesmanlike, eloquent and ready for the momentous task and gargantuan challenges that lie ahead for him, the USA and the world in general. I don’t think he can afford to fail if elected. But let him get to the Whitehouse first. The Republicans may just have one last nasty trick up their sleeve in total desperation to cling on to power by their finger nails! I’m even more cynical than you guys! Or is it just being a realist by seeing what you’ve witnessed as a nation, two at the very least deeply suspicious and fraudulent election results. The first having been a travesty of justice in my eyes. Nobody will ever tell me any different!
    You probably already have but just in case, for your info. The few honest journalists and reporters left in the world: Famous and great John Pilger, journalist, documentary maker, author and speaker – http://www.johnpilger.com, Sean Langan – journalist, documentary film maker, Taliban hostage in 2008 and chain smoker at http://www.seanlangan.co.uk. Gregory Elich renowned journalist and author of “Strange Liberators: Militarism, Mayhem & the Pursuit of Profit.” Noam Chomsky – say no more at http://www.chomsky.info/. For the most insight into American stories for the last 50 years – Studs Terkel little appreciated American Institution at http://www.studsterkel.org. Listen to Voices of Our Time – 5 Decades of Interviews. Unique and Priceless!

  333. October 29, 2008 at 09:32

    Jessica in NYC,

    Originally sent on October 29, 2008 at 4:17 am
    to Jessica in NYC,

    I pointed out to Jennifer on more than one occasion about her misappropriated loyalties and unwitting devotedness to Hilary Clinton. She said she didn’t wish to comment further beyond taking into account the indisputable facts I had laid at her feet re. Hilary.
    She also could not answer why she had fervently placed her loyalties with Hilary before her loss to Obama, and then joined in support of the McCain/Palin ticket, for some strange reason. Is it that she has found a female candidate of some type to support regardless of party political allegiances and philosophy of policy.
    It’s a strange one to be sure!
    Here in the UK a helluva lot of people like to see the world in very simplistic black & white terms, too. So many accept what they’re fed through mainstream media, TV and newspapers. That is why Blair and his pathetic yes men got away with so much, and passed the hugely poisoned chalice on to Gordon Brown. And the truth was twisted and turned inside out by political spin meister Alastair Campbell. What a truly reprehensible man, who by the way for those who don’t know, started out in such illustrious circles by writing for porn magazines!
    Campbell’s better known for making the Director General of the BBC, Greg Dyke, resign his position in the most unpleasant and threatening manner recently. He sent vicious emails with expletives and the more in his personal attacks and character assassinations, because of the ongoing dispute between the BBC and the government over the illegal invasion of Iraq and “sexed up dossiers” falsifying evidence to allow it to go ahead. He’ll get his comeuppance one day, and to me and others it won’t be a moment too soon! Cont’d.

  334. October 29, 2008 at 10:12

    Jessica in NYC,

    By the way, just in case you couldn’t tell, I want Barack Obama to be the first (and certainly a long time in coming) black president of America as well as your new leader. He appears statesmanlike, eloquent and ready for the momentous task and gargantuan challenges that lie ahead for him, the USA and the world in general. I don’t think he can afford to fail if elected. But let him get to the Whitehouse first. The Republicans may just have one last nasty trick up their sleeve in total desperation to cling on to power by their finger nails! I’m even more cynical than you guys! Or is it just being a realist by seeing what you’ve witnessed as a nation, two at the very least deeply suspicious and fraudulent election results. The first having been a travesty of justice in my eyes. Nobody will ever tell me any different!
    You probably already have but just in case, for your info. The few honest journalists and reporters left in the world: Famous and great John Pilger, journalist, documentary maker, author and speaker – http://www.johnpilger.com, Sean Langan – journalist, documentary film maker, Taliban hostage in 2008 and chain smoker at http://www.seanlangan.co.uk. Gregory Elich renowned journalist and author of “Strange Liberators: Militarism, Mayhem & the Pursuit of Profit.” Noam Chomsky – say no more at http://www.chomsky.info/. For the most insight into American stories for the last 50 years – Studs Terkel The Man! A little appreciated and grossly overlooked American Institution at http://www.studsterkel.org. Listen to Voices of Our Time – 5 Decades of Interviews. Unique and priceless!


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