This question comes out several debates we’ve been following for the past few weeks. And before I continue, a ‘coconut’ or an ‘Oreo’ is a disparaging term for a black or Asian person who is seen as behaving like a white person.
1. Ndumiso Ngcobo’s a South African columnist on thoughtleader.co.za. He’s at the centre of row after saying ‘I’m a coconut and proud of it’. He rejects that taking on certain characteristics makes him more ‘white’.
2. South African journalist Jon Qwelane is also in the thick of it after saying that ‘there was no room for journalists in South Africa who were “authentically black” and there were black editors who suppressed black self determination and identity’. He also called those who opposed black-only meetings of the Forum of Black Journalists ‘coconuts’. Here he says he won’t apologise.
3. Last year a BBC survey found that more than a third of British Asians believe that to get ahead as an Asian in this country it is necessary to be a coconut.
4. Here’s a fascinating post by Trini blogger mentalTHREESIXTY. He grapples with how ‘black’ he is and how African Americans have had a problem with his credentials. What’s interesting is that clearly becoming more ‘white’ as some people have said of him has not been a conscious decision.
If you’re black or Asian, have you had to compromise your background or culture to make your way? If you have had to, did you mind doing it? Or maybe, you think you’ve been at a disadvantage because you won’t change. Are you an employer? Are you more impressed if black or Asian applicants behave in a ‘white’ way?
Or does this mean nothing to you? Is the notion of being ‘black’ or ‘white’ completely out of date? Is being black a ’state of mind’, as Jon Qwelane suggests?
If you don’t mind, please define ‘Asian’. Do you mean subcontinental Asian, or Asian from/with roots in the rest of Asia?
Hi ZK. Either definition is fine. What we’re getting at is people who aren’t white feeling like they need behave in a ‘white way’.
An East Asian would probably never entertain such an idea!
It might be an issue among Indians (South Asians).
It has been claimed that black Africans adopt one mentality when dealing with the white world and a different mentality when dealing with the black world.
Let’s hear from people who know!
At the moment the “white European culture” is the dominant social, economic and military force on the planet - as it has been for centuries. In powerful countries and regions such as the USA, Russia, Canada, the EU and Oceania this culture predominates and leads the world.
It is possible that in the foreseeable future that the “white European culture” may be superseded by Asian cultures (Chinese and Indian), as those countries begin to reach towards their full economic and military potential. In history the dominant culture (Greek, Roman, Chinese, Egyptian), always paralleled the most powerful and successful societies. Asia is now challenging the European “Old Guard” for economic and social dominance. Therefore it is quite likely that Asian from successful states like China, Japan, South Korea etcetera will hold on to a large proportion of their own cultural background and that the “white European culture” will have to adjust to this new reality. It is likely that the “white European” and Asian cultures will co-dominate the world - depending on the geographical region in which a person is located.
On the other hand there is no such culture for black people. While there have been many accomplished, highly educated and highly successful black people, there is no nation or region with a successful, technologically and economically advanced black-majority state. As a result, black people will probably have to adopt a sizeable proportion of dominant culture’s behavioural and social characteristics of both the fading “white European culture” as well as the rising “Asian culture” to have any chance of being accepted in the economic and social worlds of the dominant cultures.
PS: I am a black person who would have liked to have seen one or more African states take up the mantle as a highly technical, successful and leading state. The closest sub-saharan Africa has to such a state is South Africa - which was largely organized by the “white European culture” in pre-black majority times.
Blacks or Asians don’t have to behave like white to succeed, but success depends on borrowing good values from each other.
Jared Ombui
Makerere University
Kampala
False premise
No it is not a matter of race or pretending to be another race.
Social and business norms are manners and dress that present an individual well, capable of trust and business interaction.
In Spanish and Latin American countries this is called ” Presentacion”. Presentation.
It is important. It is not race. Rebel to fail. Embrace it to succeed.
My answer is NO NO and NO.It is only a black or asian person who donot know the value of what he/she has that go about pretending to be white, however I think the whites have a role to play too in putting an end to this by stopping their racial discriminations against other races. This way the world would be a better and safer place for us all.
CHIMEZIE from NIGERIA.
I’m white, but if I moved to a country where the predominant race wasn’t white, I would understand perfectly if I had to adopt aspects of their culture to succeed there. Is being British “being white”? I don’t think so. But it IS being British. Do you need to adopt some aspects of “Britishness” to succeed in Britain? I would think so. I think a white Italian would need to adjust somewhat - so it’s not surprising that someone from China or Africa would as well. Is that “acting white”? No, it’s acting British. The same could be said of needing to “act French” in France or “act Japanese” in Japan.
Calling someone an “oreo” is insulting to everyone concerned - it implies that how you act should be dictated by your appearance. You ignore cultural behaviours at your own peril.
White, yellow, green or black, we are all human beings. The problem resides in our mentality and I think it is heriditory and psychologic. We blacks just need a change of mentality and we will top. Blacks in africa are having all the natural resources that can be found on earth but still yet they suffer a lot. We are carrying bananas on our heads and birds are doing away with it even in our presence.
Blacks and asians just have to change their ways of reasoning and keep away heatrate in order to prosper.
Could this topic’s presentation itself fuel the misguided youth?
By using a false premise for the question
do you promote the false notion that dressing for success is a racial thing?
Professional people dress like professional people, regardless of race.
If you want the job, the business deal, the respect of peers, the advancement
dress and use the manners of someone capable of interacting with the level you wish to achieve
rather than rebel dress to that position.
One indicates you are capable of stepping into the job, the other indicates you have issues of conflict with the the norms.
Who would you hire: man in a business suit and tie or baggy pants hanging below your rear?
Which Doctor do you want: clean, tie, white coat or shorts and tennis shoes?
It is not a race issue: to present it as such only misdirects young people to cheat themselves of opportunity.
Do I feel I have to act like a white man to succeed? Perhaps. It depends on the context of the situation, surely. If in a situation with other Asian people I wouldn’t feel too bothered about acting myself, but when white foreigners get involved there is a sense that you have to ‘click’ with them…and naturally that might mean acting white.
Confusion reigns. Just exactly how does a white man be white? And just exactly how does someone who is not white pretend to be white? By walking in the shadows so no-one can see he is not white? What a load of codswallop it is that gets dished out into the media by those who are so fixated by their colour that they forget to factor any wisdom or logic into their thought process. Racists, all of them, with no other thought in their minds other than their skin colour, blacks and whites alike.
Des Currie
Ros, I believe that those people who want to become coconuts are not serious.Its a sign of low self esteem.I see a lot of people at the University campus trying to behave that way and I pity them greatly. I think we need to promote our culture too.A people without a culture they are proud of are dead and no longer existent.
Phillip K in Makerere University
Interesting issue, especially when you realise what ‘acting white’ actually means for some groups: acting responsibly, studying hard and wanting to get a good education, taking an interest in culture (e.g. going to museums and art galleries), wanting a good job, and in general having middle class aspirations. In short, being civilised.
African-American children have long been reported as being bullied and insulted (by other African-Americans) simply for wanting to do well at school (academically, rather than in sports). It really has come to something when its acceptable to take the view that authentic black culture in the US is basically synonymous with quasi-barbarism, and when the people pushing this identity are not the Klan but other black people. If you have no interest in academic achievement, have never set foot in a theatre, aren’t a member of your local library and can’t remember when you last bought a book, have spent time in correctional facilities, have or affect to have ghetto-bred - i.e. thuggish - manners, speak a barely intelligible English patois, have musical horizons that begin with rap and end with hip hop, and have had a couple of kids while a teenager, then you’re well and truly black according to this view of things; if you want to go to Harvard and behave accordingly, then you’re “acting white”. Hard to know whether to regard this as tragedy or farce.
African-Americans have a problem because they are trying to construct an identity out of a genetic fact, rather than out of a cultural and social heritage. There is no such thing as a ‘black identity’ in Africa; there are specific ethno-cultural identities, i.e. Zulu, Twi, Igbo, Yoruba, Luo, etc. The chief marker for all of these is language. African-Americans speak English: that is the pointer to their culture, that of Anglo-America.
It’s no surprise that some of the South African examples you give replicate the madness and folly of African-Americans (who, are of course purely a product of America, and culturally have nothing at all of Africa about them), or that the African examples all come from South Africa. I suspect that South Africa’s balck elite are trying to create a common identity for all South African blacks that transcends the actual ethnic identities that they already possess: a ‘black African’ identity. There isn’t and can never be any such thing, and the attempt to forge it can only end in failure, disappointment and rage. It is not surprising, given their history, that South Africa’s black politicians are almost as race-obsessed as African-Americans, or that the leadership of both groups - but also many in the rank and file - possessing as they do such deep hostility to whites, make a point of distancing their people and themselves from what they see as the hated white foe. The whole ‘oreo’ and ‘acting white’ view of things and rhetoric seems to be a product of that underlying hostility, at a popular level, as does the acceptance, if not celebration, of any cultural characteristics (however negative or self-destructive) that serve the function of setting blacks apart from whites (such as some of the truly foul and barbaric musical forms amongst African-Americans, exulting as they do in sexism, racism, homophobia and violence). This whole phenomenon is especially pathetic in South Africa where blacks are a power-holding majority but continue to have the mental outlook of a helpless, self-pitying and resentful minority.
Middle class values are good and people are wise to aspire to them. Added to this is the consideration that there is in the world today only one civilisation, that of the West. People are equally wise to acquaint themselves with its cultural and scientic achievements. Class and culture are not matters of race and the whole ‘acting white’ phenomenon is just another chapter in the age old story of envy: envy that other people should aspire to what you don’t have and perhaps can’t attain.
Race is real enough though (its absurd to say that black and white - and brown and yellow for that matter - somehow don’t matter); and it doesn’t make any sense to suggest that one’s race can simply be dismissed as just ‘a state of mind - tell that to a white man suffering from multiple sclerosis or a black man from hypertension. That’s just Western liberalism trying to pass off its agreeable fantasies as facts.
To succeed in the world today we need to consider many things at the time like education, communication skills, and civilization…behaving like whites depends in what sense…not forgetting that many imitate some white’s behavior that leads to failure…because all white’s ways are not ideal…and why some can’t work in blacks or Asians. You should also ask whether whites have to copy some behaviors of blacks and Asians in order to succeed more.
Sorry… How do white people act? How do black and Asian people act? We all act the same way, though we look in a different way - that’s what people with prejudice never understand. We’re all the same, and I don’t think we’ve got to change our essence - appearanve, behaviour, etc. - simply because we’re all the same: HUMAN BEINGS!
I know good and bad people, smart and stupid people, generous and mean people…. And believe me, it’s never been connedted to their colour or kind.
Cheers!
I am completely facinated with this blog today if for any other reason that it touches on the very sore subject of race at the level of identity politics and ethnicity in the global political economy where “white values” are, in the main, the ones which are in ascendancy. The reality would obviously be, therefore, that there is a way in which alot of what the rest of the world does is influenced, in some instances, very much so, by these values. “Wteness”, in effect, asa discourse of acceptability is considered a normative value. It is often never questioned, or is assumed to be so ‘natural’ it is sometimes difficult to meaningfully disucuss this topic without causing offence; at the very least misunderstanding.
The reality, however, is that as a black man from the Global South, though I feel very much ‘Western’, I often contend the issue of “true blackness”, especially when one considers that the rise of religions and political movements like Rastafari in Jamaica have, in the main, privileged blackness as a normative identity and one almost synonymous with being Jamaican.
Whereas, I do not feel that I necessarilly embody all of these ideas or for that matter all of the notions of what a traditional Jamaican is supposed to be, I feel that there is some value in recognising that blackness as ethnicity, racial, sexual or even national politics is not only a disputed subject but also that blackness is not a monolithic identity. There have been too many political and other factors which have influenced the business of identity formation, historically, especially for those of us in the African Diaspora, to be contented with only one expression of blackness as normative and, therefore, right. I believe, as a result, that we are all borrowing from each other in numerous ways though we rarely sometimes consider this.
Of course, the cultures from which we seem to borrow the most are those from the developed West, (up North), primarily Europe and the US. As those societies are majority European it is not hard to see how progress as value, ethic or discipline can also come to be defined as synonymous with whiteness, in the modern world.
So what exactly is “behaving black or asian”?
I think Bruce hit this issue on the head. First you have to ask yourself what is white. There is no single, homogeneous white standard for behavior, dress, business style etc etc etc on this planet.Ask the French if they think they are like the Americans, or the Jews if they are like the Irish. So the premise of the question is flawed. Only someone who defines themselves as “not white” would struggle with understanding that. I am white by a “non-white’s” definition. By my own definition I am a person, a human being. To succeed, in a desired goal I know I must adapt myself in many ways to the path or process that leads to the accomplishment of that goal. It has nothing to do with race or nationality, gender or birth culture. If having money is the goal then I must play the game by the established rules or create a new game. One or the other.
The question reads as if it is an insult to follow the lead of white people. I am always baffled by this. Notice where the flow of human kind migration. Are we rushing to the African desserts to have what they have? NO! Are we rushing to China or the MIddle east to live like they live? NO! Migration by rich and poor alike is toward the Europeanized cutlures where technology and market skills have brought afluence and luxury to the common person. So if people runn form a place the don’t like to a place that has what they want but they insist on acting the same way they did in the place they left …what do you suppose the new place will become??? But it’s not about white or black or any other skin color … it is about the willingness to do 100% of what is necessary to have the goal sought after.It doesn’t matter what kind of food you eat while you are doing it or what kind of clothes you wear or music you listen to. Just do what is necessary to have what you want then you will be what you are, successful at your goals.
Here in the US Asians are often more successful and commit less crime than whites. And I don’t think it’s a matter of “acting white”, but rather just not acting dumb and burdening others. The last time I checked there were more blacks in prison than whites, so maybe they should act “more white”. But then again there are far less Asians in prison than whites. Should whites be acting Asian?
Stephen in Sacramento
If you notice people like Obama or Oprah Winfrey, they way they speak is determined by the audience. If speaking to mostly whites, they both will speak standard english. If they speak to black audiences, they’ll start speak with colloquial african american, with lots slang, an accent. I’ve noticed Hillary clinton does this too though, so it’s not really a racial thing. If she has a southern audience, she’ll start using a fake southern accent. It just shows how phoney these people are.
Hello,
I am black and a woman - does that mean there are two strikes against me? I would hope not, but depending on where you are in the world, I DO have to compromise some of my culture for the sake of economic progression. I was raised to believe that a black person must accomplish twice as much as a white person to only succeed half as much. Yes, opportunities abound everywhere, no matter the racial ethnicity; however, there is a severe lack of solidarity in the black community (my apologies, but I can not speak for the Asian community), which when blacks go outside of their culture to achieve goals and look for opportunities outside of their social/economic/cultural background, they are labeled as sell-outs and traitors.
Julie
Portland, Oregon, USA
I could not agree with GeorgeUSA and Bruce more. I don’t know why this is hard for people to understand. The language of business does not see color. While living and working in Taiwan, I was expected to be professional, just like I am in the USA. I didn’t have any problems with it. If I went to a company, acting like a pompous loud mouthed american, then I would be sent packing. White people are forced to make these changes in the work place just as black and asian people are. I don’t want to wear a suit and tie to work, but I don’t want to work with anyone who comes in wearing Frank Zappa or Fubu T-shirts either. When you come to work, you need to be professional, regardless of your skin color. If you feel like you’re losing your culture by participating in the world of business, then you’ll never succeed.
@Stephen
“Asian” is “British” for Indian/Pakistani, not Asian. I believe they would use the non PC term “oriental” for what we would call “Asian”
Hi Ros and rest of the team.
My opinion is short. Be who you really are no matter what and a person who impersonates another is a second hander.
period.
nairobi
Do white people have to behave like Blacks and Asians in order to succeed? No. Blacks and Asians do not have to aspire “becoming White”
in order to succeed. But the problem is the very idea of success as planted in the cultural psyche of Blacks and Asians through the carefully crafted process of imperial education. Imerialism / Colonialism was (and remains) the conquest of the mind and soul. We just have to understand that thinking that we can succeed by “becoming White” is a consequence of something that has happened to us. Such people need to be re-educated. I DON’T like calling them names, I pity them — although I know that name-calling is a way of behaviour correction in African culture.
Bright Molande
Zomba
Malawi
I would like to know what specific sacrifices people like Chimezie or Phillip have had to make to adapt to white culture. Are there specific values that you’ve had to sacrifice to be successful? What parts of your culture do you think the professional world should have to accept.
Ros,
I think we need to first define what WHITE BEHAVIOUR is all about.If its about clothing , socail gathrings and the way we spend our income, then I think we need not to compare the two categoires.
Lets try to refocus the debate to be somewhere, please because if its about behaviour, I wouldnt behave like the Caucasians(or white?) I dont see the difference.However, if its about Education, I think we need to have something in common and we can copy each other.
Dividing races by stereotypes like ‘the way they act’ helps perpetuate the problem of racism and profiling.
Some hurtful stereotypes that continue to harm racial harmony are (very often through comedians of all races):
Whites = conservative, skittish, geeky, obnoxiously well-spoken, often times crazy
Blacks = act ‘ghetto’, poor, all speak ebonics
Im sure one could go on and on with the harmful stereotypes of how certain races act.
I cannot tell you how sick it makes me when black friends I have get made fun of for being ‘white’, not only by whites, but by their black peers, simply because they are well spoken or do not line up with common harmful ‘black’ stereotypes.
That said, you do not have to act ‘white’ to succeed, but you do have to act in some accordance with societal norms accepted by all cultures within that society. That means being respectful, well spoken, intelligent, etc.
Regards,
Brett ~ Richmond, Va.
Hi Ros and the team!
I think the question should be what does being “white” mean. Are all “whites” educated? NO. I am a Sierra Leonean living and working in the US. I certainly don’t act “white” I’m just educated. Unfortunately there are people in the black community in the United States and in Africa that think being educated is acting white. The problem lies within the uneducated demographic of that minority group.
Julie, the thought of accomplishing twice as much to receive half the pay doesn’t make sense to me. In any company I’ve ever worked for, you get paid what you’re worth. If you think you’re doing twice the work as everyone and getting paid half as much, then go tell your boss, “I’m leaving unless I get paid properly”. If you’re worth it, you’ll get that money, if not, then maybe you’re not working quite as hard as you think you are. The culture of business is profit, that’s all, no secrets. If you’re making money for me, you’ll get paid.
But Steve, the issue of the pervasiveness of a particular standard or set of standards which govern the idea of progress as it is played out in human society cannot be overlooked; that is, in terms of the origins of some of these ideas. The commonly accepted notion of civilisation in current usage, therefore, has built within it some ethnic markers which are unmistakably “white”. This is to the extent that there seems little, if any, focus on some of the characteristics which make us different from this ideal.
For instance, I have found that bringing up a subject like this among some friends in Jamaica can sometimes cause offence to the extent that you will either be ignored or verbally attacked for focussing too much on these ‘differences’. This is because the society is largely seen as black. Consequently, there is an equivalent blindess (?) in terms of understanding how race and racial politics have, over time, influenced our values in certan social classes and across certain societies. That does not mean that all ‘upper class’ people are white, or that all white values (whatever these are) necessarilly sqaure with an uptown reality.
The most obvious example I can think of, is the very offensive “white trash” designation as a way of othering some (white) people who do not fit into the normative ideals of civility and respectability likened to the group. Whereas, there is not necessarilly an equivalent designation amongst blacks; perhaps, of course, with the exception of terms like “ghetto” as a way making/marking the distinctions between different ideals of blackness, in this regard.
The reality is that, it is perhaps just as offensive to see all white people as the same as much as it is to see all other people as constituting a homogeneous collective. In truth, we do not see all people as necessarilly equally deserving of respect and therein lies the problem - difference, whether of skin colour, accents, style of dress or other types of self expression which do not fit in the majoritarian defintions of “normal” usually elicits negative responses. We must work at overcoming such impediments to communication both within and across cultures, as a result.
In this context Civilisation, as a discourse and value to which many aspire is unmistakably European, in many respects, and therefore, “white”. This is to the extent that those things considered as a civilised come with certain in built prejudices of normativity. Whether all Europeans are white, or all white people are the same is not the issue. Progress as it is configured in the collective imagination takes its cues from those who lead. In this instance, the leaders/ arbiters of world power are primarily, white societies - plain and simple!
Firstly, I think it is important to define “Asian” as either the UK term, meaning “Indian, Pakistani, etc” or the American term meaning “Chinese, Japanese, etc”.
Otherwise, the original question should be “Should non-whites have to act ‘white’ in order to achieve?” or something similar.
One interesting note: Over here in Japan (home of rigid conformity), if you don’t act “Japanese”, then it’s very difficult to get anywhere in life.
Another is that my gf, who herself is an “African American”, has said that some of her black male countrymen have complained about having to “act white” to get anywhere and quite frankly she has been sick of hearing it. However, I will cease to add too much from her point of view as she is not posting here to defend what I’m putting in her mouth, sotospeak.
The whole premise of this debate is misguided.
Thinking this way is just lazy and divisive.
What exactly is ‘behaving like a white person’?
Culture and social background are much more important than race in shaping peoples behaviour.
The examples you give only illustrate how the social, historical and cultural associations of race in different parts of the world lead people to see behavior in racial terms.
More definition of what attributes constitute blackness, asianess, and whitness are required. The bottom line is this. we are social animals who take what we know from past experiences and apply tome to current situations.
I am a white male. I have worked many jobs that varied from dirty foundry, factories, to construction, and to an engineering office. Each situation required me to act, dress and talk in a different fashion. One place I worked was employed by 3/4ths ex-convicts. If I showed up there in a suit and tie everyday, spoke queens English, and invited them over to my house to listen to a classical music recital, I not only would not have been successful, but I probably would have had to defend myself in the parking lot. I learned to talk the talk, and most importantly to those guys was that you hold up your end of the work load.
On the other hand, if had showed up to an engineering or IT interview with my shoulder length hair let down (a disadvantage anyway, but “hippies” are not considered to be a discriminated minority group.) and a “wife beater” shirt, and a pair of jeans that showed my butt crack, I most certainly would not have gotten the job. If I had showed up to work that way, I would not have advanced either. I defiantly wouldn’t have if I started speaking Ebonics, street lingo, or hell Spanish for that fact. I needed to be able to communicate my abilities in order to achieve success.
When I took my first factory job, It had only been a month before I sought the advice of a college advisor. She asked me what I would like to go to school for. I told her I wanted to wear a suit and tie. She looked at me crossways and asked what I meant. I told her I had worked at a local factory on 3rd shift. Every morning these guys with suits and ties come in, walk through the shop, and go back to an air-conditioned office. There is no way they are working harder then me, and I guarantee they are making double if not more of what I make. I want to be one of them.
IF you want to change what it looks like to be successful, you need to do it from a leadership position. Or you can just change the concept of what success means to you.
No, they don’t have to behave white to succeed - they only have to SOUND white.
They just need to bahave how the people who generate the most business/money do. That just happends to be whites at the moment. This has been around so long, that it has become the standard for business.
-Anthony, LA, CA
I think that the use of the word ‘white’ causes more confusion and emotion than is necessary.
We are not talking about race. Nobody dreams that acting more like Serbs or Albanians would do blacks and Asians any good. ‘White’ in this context refers to certain civilisational standards and cultural norms that characterise the leading countries of Western Europe, Australia, New Zealand, and North America, but particularly the nations of the Anglo-sphere.
It is in this sense that the Japanese, in the Nineteenth century, decided as a matter of policy that they needed to ‘act white’, i.e. to emulate the scientific, organisational, and to some extent social achievements of the Western world. Japan’s position in the world today is a direct consequence of a determined and systematic effort to ‘act white.’ And there is nothing wrong in imitating the best and highest standards in whatever field, even when those standards are largely to be found in the Western world. The problem arises when the people who need to do the imitating (Africans, African-Americans and Muslims in particular - Indians are very successfully following the Western model already) also happen to have a deep hostility - close to being racist - to the civilisation that they need to imitate. That’s the complication.
China may not say so but it is also ‘acting white,’ at least when it comes to science and technology, even to the extent of constantly attempting to steal technological secrets from the USA.
No country that wishes to be developed and successful can avoid ‘acting white’ since the only model for the success they apsire to is to be found in Western civilisation or in the successful imitators of Western civilisation such as China and Japan.
‘Acting white’ in this broader sense simply means valuing efficiency, competence, effort, discipline, and organisation. Many countries are far from possessing these virtues, and their fruits, and they could not do worse than to ‘act white’. The whole ‘oreo’ thing is nonsensical, unless one argues that efficiency, competence, effort, discipline and organisation reflect not culture but DNA, and that these are things that certain races can never attain by virtue of their not being white. That position is a pretty monstrous instance of racism, I think.
And that ‘acting white’ is not a racial thing is borne out by the fact that the country that has most successfully acted white, Japan, still retains its distinct cultural and social identity. ‘Acting white’ and ‘being yourself’ are perfectly compatible. Only people who are alienated from or discontented with the identity that they have, or who simply dislike whites (like African-Americans or South Africa’s liberal black elite) are afraid that ‘acting white’ means becoming imitation white men.
The bottom-line is that there is only one successful civilisation in the world today, that of the West, and there can be no material progress without imitating the achievements of that civilisation. If you wish to call that ‘acting white’, very well. But it doesn’t change the fact that Western standards are the norm and not only is there no other civilisation that can offer rival standards, there is no other civilisation at all.
Hi Ros
African and Asia will try to become a white to success but at last they always
fail.Typical example is Michael Jackson.
He is not black nor white now.
The biggest mistake the black man ever made is trusting the whiteman.
The british have so much gold reserves because they colonised some african people under the pretext of trading with them, oppressed them, stole their gold and shipped them into slavery. South africans were treated with much less dignity than white owned pets during apartheid, western white states have supported oppressive black regimes because of their selfish interests,thinks of british support for Mobutu in his early years and the support he received from belgium to slay lumumba.
Palestinians are blockaded in gaza and the US vigorously refuse to condemn it. And i cant even think straight when i remember the US public health service sponsored tuskegee syphilis experiment. The white man is successful because he is cruel and a cheat. They may look like heroes today trying to help blacks but the root cause of the underdevelopment of africa is in the actions and inactions of the whiteman.
Kwabena in Ghana
Rob, while you are entitled to your opinion, I can’t agree that the debate is misguided. Insofar as it offers an open forum in which to raise issues of this nature, it may also lead to problems; that is, if we are not aware of what we are talking about. So, no it is not lazy or divisive.
I would submit that it is simply asking, I think, for us to think about as well as examine our various definitions of ‘progress’, and to see whether these are founded in political systems which have as part of their genesis ideas of similarity structured around politically accepted conventions of race and identity which we may wish to question. As to whether that constitutes a case for being misguided, I would very much like to defer.
You have got to be kidding me, an entire race all behaving the same way!
So an English person and a Russian or a Norwegian and a Greek all act ‘white’.
Statements like these really really depress me, race in the black/white sense is ridiculous.
The world cannot be split up like this.
I fear that this is a red herring being used to cloud the real problems which in my view are socio-economic and educational inequalities both at a local national level and on a global scale ie the haves and the havenots and the constant stuggle between the two.
The haves wanting to maintain what they have and the havenots wanting to increase their standing, capitalism in essence.
Perhaps people regardless of their colour should just be more concerned about being true to themselves and using their own initiative and talent to get on with what they are involved in and less about what they perceive others are judging them on. By that I mean if they are in a situation whereby their colour is an issue, then nothing will change that. If your firm or colleagues do not like you on that basis nothing short of a fundamental change in thinking will alter this and there is no point in waiting for that to occur. If you show to anyone around you that you are competent and capable then that will inevitably show through over anything. A reasonable company will see that to have a positive asset in their organisation is ultimately better for them than any other bias. But by making colour an issue when perhaps there wasn’t one will just start it up on its own and create problems where none may have existed by labouring this point. Besides which I don’t see that it is always the case that white people are the ultimate role model and behaving like white people might simply be seen as either insensitive or insincere. You can’t be another person can you?
Andrew
Australia
Victor K, is right on the money. Kwabena in Ghana is right by saying that injustices have been done, but the question does not pertain to the Tuskegee experiments, which ended in 1972. There are bad people out there. Those doctors were bad people, but they don’t represent the white race any more than the Ying Yang twins represent the black race. To hang on to these things, is useless. If one race refuses to move forward, then they will never improve their own situation.
Well then Nick, it is a known fact that women in this country make some 77 cents for every dollar a man makes. Mind you that is an example of injustices that occur in the culture of business. I apologize but I do not have statistics available as far as race is concerned.
I appreciate that you are so fair minded, though a bit naive about the ways of business. The culture of business IS profit, but it is a culture that has been propagated by a dominant culture that does not allow for many differences or individuality.
Julie
Portland, Oregon
@ Julie
I realize this is off topic, but the wage gap is a myth:
http://money.cnn.com/2006/02/21/commentary/everyday/sahadi/
http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba/ba392/ba392.pdf
It results from women choosing lower paid professions like teaching, and working fewer hours, or not working at all. Very few men can be “stay at home dads”, and having no income affects the median income. Many women simply don’t work, so they have no income. That’s their choice. But perpetuating a myth is wrong. Being a professional victim doesn’t pay very well, all groups that do this really need to stop.
Success as defined in the West is a combination of enlightened intelligence and material industry.A tradition of education and adaptability have give the West enormous capacity for individual growth,when fostered in a free environment..Asia is increasingly demonstrating its ability to assimilate Western values without losng its cultural identity.China ,Japan and India will continue to exert world influence and the West will benfit from adopting those cultural attitudes that enhance growth in a broad spectrum ,spiritual ,philosophical .Ancient cultures can revitalize the modern West.Africans have yet ti demonstrate a cutural adaptabitity ,it may be that the colonial experience has yet to be distilled discarding old resntments and using the beneficial aspects of that period .Poor governence ,lack of education and respect for it seem to be a drag on black progress in Africa and the US.
What? I am supposed to behave in a “white-way” nobody gave me the instructions! Damn I have been faking it for 41 years now….Don’t tell the blacks or Asians!
Chris B Los Angeles
Ros, first off, thanks for opening up this ‘Pandora’s box’! (LOL!) The postings so far have been insightful, to say the least. The reality is that, as I noted at the start, this subject has all the potentials to elicit negative if not misunderstood responses, largely, for one reason - we are not very accustomed to thinking through our own sense of privilege/ entitlement. This is especially where such privilege is taken for granted and/ or it may be connected to other peoples’ lack of privilege, as seems the inference here.
“Whiteness” in the context herein is, inter alia, both an indication of privilege and civility to the extent that “blackness” and “Asianess” are, implicitly, seen as opposites. Hence, the desire to “act white” as a means of achieving/ embodying these ideas in the modern context is at once a rejection of the elements of these identities which are seen as backward and an embrace of those elements of “whiteness” seen, largely, as progressive and, therefore, right.
It, of course, does not follow that the reverse is also true; that is, “whiteness” is antithetical to progress, if for any other reason that by throwing two non-white categories into the debate you have also forced us to consider what each of these other labels really mean and, therefore, to indirectly critique “whiteness”.
I think that VictorK says it best in terms of the efforts to define “acting white” and, by extension, “whiteness”, though I am not so sure I am fully comfortable with, or totally understand his parenthetical comments in reference to African-Americans or members of the black elite in South Africa. Perhaps a clarification would be useful?
While, it is ‘natural’ to not want to upset the gravy train (too much!), it is also ‘natural’ to be curious to the extent the often difficult questions are sometimes asked. I am not sure if this discussion was, necessarilly, ever about imitating others or seeking out a problem where none existed. Rather, to invite consideration of what ideas constitute “whiteness”, “blackness” and all the other permutations in between; and, to determine the extent to which these are founded in notions of similarity surrounding race as political power. How much of what we regard as ‘progress’ or ‘civilisation’ is really about ‘white privilege’ and, too, what is essentially wrong if that is the case? Something to think about, I am sure.
@ Steve,
I thank you for the correction, and it is duly noted. And I agree with you that perpetuating a myth is wrong. However, as groups that portray themselves as “professional victims” (your words) need to stop, so do those groups that frown on individuality and self expression, and sanitizing the business world.
Julie
Portland, Oregon
I have to just say this rather than copy whites to succeed the asians and blacks have to look back in the 70s how bob marly ,the rastafarian singer and Vivian Richards singlehandedly put their identity of whom they are before the world and became the messiahs of pan afrikanism which promted derek walcott to write in his poem AIR” there is nothing between this rocky ridges and blacksea ..yet some are game enough to dare to find coral reefs out of it the best exponents were richards and bob marley who united different islands into one called westindies through their singing and cricket. I have to say just this for this debate asians be asians and blacks be blacks and rectify negatives within to face this world square on rather than copy the whites. That’s the message of gramaswaraj of mahathma gandhi as a means for self identity for India Gandhi proffessed.
Devadas in Kerala
India
Perhaps people regardless of their colour should just be more concerned about being true to themselves and using their own initiative and talent to get on with what they are involved in and less about what they perceive others are judging them on. By that I mean if they are in a situation whereby their colour is an issue, then nothing will change that. If your firm or colleagues do not like you on that basis nothing short of a fundamental change in thinking will alter this and there is no point in waiting for that to occur. If you show to anyone around you that you are competent and capable then that will inevitably show through over anything. A reasonable company will see that to have a positive asset in their organisation is ultimately better for them than any other bias. But by making colour an issue when perhaps there wasn’t one will just start it up on its own and create problems where none may have existed by labouring this point. Besides which I don’t see that it is always the case that white people are the ultimate role model and behaving like white people might simply be seen as either insensitive or insincere. You can’t be another person can you?
Andrew
Australia
If we all have to say the truth, there is nothing life black, Asian and white behavior. No matter how clever human is , he or she will have sometimes in life that things will go wrong. What example has Paul Wolfowitz the former world bank chairman set, his brother
the former governor of New York who spent millions of $ in chasing prostitute, what can we say about Adolph Hitler and those military boy that are raping Iraqi
girls. Maybe been white make us to be free of all our wrong doings! The story was the Jewish in the 30s and today the music has changed to the blacks and Asians. The stone casted away by the builders in the 30s is now the corner stone. Change, maybe we have to learn from this.
Daniel from China
I think we are one people but different colors. It is inferiority complex that has artificially created undue racial discriminations (Such as us and them) and make people stereotypically naïve to development and success; and that is why most people feel the whites have succeeded so they have to behave white to succeed.
Mohammed
Liberia
We are a black and Asian couple. We believe the answer is “yes”. However, even if the minority does act, dress, and accept white morality, they are only marginally accepted. White people will “white wash” the accepted minority person. That is they tend to overlook our race and talk badly about our races to us.
John and Linda
Minnesota
@ Julie
What kind of indivuality and self expression are you referring to in the business world? Not really sure what you mean by that.
Blacks and Asians do not have to behave like white people to succeed. They simply have to behave civilized. Most white people act civilized. It is racial stereotyping to imply that only white people act civilized. One could easily say that Blacks and Asians need to act like Japanese or (South) Koreans instead. Chinese people obviously don’t act ‘white’ but they are evolving into a complex civilization because they are not going around genociding eachother. A good example is the Tibet situation. Tibet and Darfur could be identical problems but the reason they are not is because Chinese are not doing the looting/pillaging/burning/raping that is all too common in Africa.
Jason
@ John And Linda
“White people will “white wash” the accepted minority person. That is they tend to overlook our race and talk badly about our races to us.”
Way to make a mass generalization. You’ve met every white person and know they all do this? Are you free from doing anything like that, you’re absolutley not a racist, but white people all are? Do you mind if I make some mass generalization about blacks and asians? Or can only you do that about other groups?
The definition of success is a personal perception not a quantifiable fact.
Non-Caucasian individuals who feel that they need to go above and beyond the number of accomplishments attained by white counterparts to be successful are suffering from their own psychological inadequacies.
These individuals don’t need to work harder to be successful; instead, they need to deal with the mental and emotional problems in their lives that make them feel inadequate with a licensed psychologist.
I going with the dominant culture argument on this one. If a particular feature dominates the culture and makes up the rules, then I would expect that people who follow or imitate the dominant culture are going to be successful, or more successful than the group that ignores the rules. One of the maddening features of “white” culture, both here in the United States and in parts of the world that have been colonized, is that the whites deliberately set up a rule structure that would exclude blacks, Asians and other groups from being successful, while at the same time proclaiming that if these groups would follow the “rules” then they would be accepted and successful. You can’t have both.
Hi All
Do blacks and Asians have to behave like white people to succeed? A resounding no!
What are “white people” succeeding at? Lets be careful because we are opening a can of worms here. Because people “succeed” in both positive and negative ways.
Firstly, white people led by George W. Bush USA, Tony Blair England, Canada etc. have disgraced themselves in Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine etc. We are on the verge of world war 3 because white people thought they are the panacea and have the answers to the world’s problems. But the results are self-evident because the world has never been more dangerous in history and this is all because a white man George W. Bush thought the solution to the worlds problem was to impose his brand of “democracy” on the world.
Secondly, white people were not awarded the PATENT for behaving courteously, speaking properly, being confident/self-assured, working hard, displaying creativity and ingenuity, working together as a team etc. These are all basic protestant christian values. So instead of white people taking credit for their apparent economic success , they should rightly give thanks to God who gave mankind the Bibile and the Christian Faith. If it was not for Christianity, white people would be in the same position as most Africans, Asians, Middleeasterners etc. economically deprived.
Lets us therefore place things in there proper perspective and give credit where credit is due. White people should be thankful for Christianity but because they are so ungrateful, God is taking away the blessing from them and giving it to the
Asians and Africans and others. Lets us not encourage white people in there presumptiveness.
Finally, it may not be self-evident that material success has nothing to do with colour becuase almost all the very successful and prominent people of the world are white but the real reasons for the success are stick-to-it-tiveness and a right attitude. Every black man or woman or person of colour in this world has had a rags to riches story or background. None of them inherited “old money”. They adopted protestant christian values of hardwork and became a success also, just like white people.
Carlos, Kingston-Jamaica.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/09/29/national/main575685.shtml
Very interesting story not on “Acting” a way, but what your actual name is. It’s possibly a cultural thing that might get you discriminated against based upon a stereotype if you have a certain name, you aren’t educated.
Oh please. Let’s not blame “whitey” here! Blacks & Asians have to sacrifice culture to get along in business ? I don’t know. Perhaps so they should.
Gavin
“Acting white” best exemplified by “Steve Urkel” in the show Family Matters.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ncw70Hw1ffs
I am a white woman working in the USA. I behave differently at work than at home or with friends. Is behaving in a buisniess like, professional manner related to any ethnicity?
I am more controlled at work. I try to be more even tempered and less out-spoken at work. I consciencly focus on proper english usage and less slang, even in casual conversations at work.
Is profesional behavior owned by any particular race?
What a simple comment. You need to act like a business person. If you are working a trade show with your DC’s (urban shoes) on, and pants around your thighs so your briefs are showing—good buy, your fired. Many problems with the urban culture is if you can’t sell albums to your neighbors there are not other jobs to prosperity. Do your drugs, and slander anyone else in your hood trying to do better for themselves and family.
Robert
Common guys,it’s all about being rich and successful,to prove my point,come over to China and see white Americans and Britons trying to behave eat and act like the Chinese. Isn’t it ironic?
Amadu in Shanghai
There is a saying that goes…when in Rome. Every place has it’s cultural etiquette whether it’s the workplace or the bar. Adapting to the environment ones in is both necessary and unavoidable.
I’m eurasian- half Chinese and half white- and I have found a great advantage by being at least part Asian in the field of acupuncture. It gives me perceived authenticity as well as an opportunity to cultivate my cultural lineage.
Carrie
Friends,
Arsene Wenger says the key to Ronaldo’s phenomenol success in England this year is because of his combination of style and efficiency.
Obviously the frenchman is aware of an English sense of style and good one on him for recognizing the Man United winger for it.
Every country might be different though…although they would all love to have the prolific Portuguese man kicking the ball around.
Cheers,
Joey, Colorado, USA
I am a uccessful black businessman in the USA for the last 10 years.
I dont think this is about behaving ‘white’.
I have to say I dont think that people who are not black or asian realize the reality of how race still plays in the workplace.
I work nearly 100% on the internet and interestingly I have had the in the environment where my business partners and colleagues have been unaware of my color.
In circumstances where I have met a non-black in person in business I can easily say that 70-80% of these experiences have resulting in different or altered (usually negative) outcome. I can honestly say only about 20% of people I have met in person in this situation have been color-blind and accepted my professional abilities at face value.
In todays reality, if you do work in person among people who are not of color, you must accept obstacles or work harder if you want to maintain or exceed the level of success of people who are not of color.
My co-worker grew up in a Cambodian family. She sits in the section right next to me and she acts like everyone else in our office. She heard me listening to this program and asked me what it meant to act white. I didn’t know what to say, we are both confused. I grew up in a Polish family but I act like everyone else in my office as well. Am I acting white too, or is that not possible since I am white?
Thomas in Los Angeles
the problem is a fallacy of so-called diversity. in one’s goal post for “success” is measured by a euro-american paradigm then anyone who wishes to achieve such “success” must subscribe and “act” as passing to be deemed acceptable to the catering of the “white” euro-american paradigm.
There is no diversity when every one of any race and any colour is supporting and sustaining just “euro-american” ideals and concepts. That said: any asian or african who wishes to function and achieve the euro-american standard of “success” barring the music and sports fields is always leading a double or triple life suppressing their innate cultures and values and adapting those of the “other” to such an extent that they over compensate and need to become mega-super euro-americancentric in order to be perceived as acceptable within the “white’ norm.
The fallacy of that is africans and asians [and some women too] are never conceived of as having made the standard no matter what they do.
So, what is your value of success — money power over others what really is success?
It seems that in South Africa where black used to include Asian and mixed race South Africans, now it is more exclusive. Just African.
As an example see the reaction of Mr. Stofile when he was not elected the head of the South African Rugby Union. Mr. Stofile claimed there was no place for blacks in SA rugby, although the incumbent chairman and his opponent is coloured.
Even as a white woman, I experience pressure to adapt to the majority culture when I step outside my door. If I don’t dress a certain way, or talk or behave a certain way, I am treated less well and even am in danger of losing my job. It’s about adapting to the powers that be — it’s not particularly about race, but about adapting to the culture of those in power.
Nancy
What constitutes “acting white.”
“Dividing races by stereotypes like ‘the way they act’ helps perpetuate the problem of racism and profiling.”
Kudos to Brett; well put.
I guess I have to act like a man to succeed in the business world so I’m a sell out too….
Also statistically Asian women make more than white and black women. Do I need to be “act Asian” to increase my salary?
http://www.swivel.com/graphs/show/22508432
http://www.swivel.com/graphs/show/22774270
Venessa
Portland, OR
From my experience in the USA, in business and personal life, it has always been an issue. I was blessed enough to go to a private school. I was taught early about speaking articulately and manners. When it comes to trying to get a job in the “white collar” world, as a black male, I cannot wear my hairstyle anything but low. I must not allow as much emotion to show on my face when interacting with my “white” co-workers because of their own fear & interpretations about what I’m thinking which they believe is usually “mad” when in actuality I’m just concentrating on the issues 90% of the time. I’ve actually been pulled aside and asked if I could not be so intense. I believe in speaking proper english, I love many cultures and music. I have friends of many races, and even with some of them I’ve had to explain certain reactions that are misinterpreted. On the other side, most of my time in black public schools, most black kids who hear me speak or hear something I’m listening to that’s not RAP or R&B believe I’m “talking or acting white” To the whites I say: “look at someone as they are “in the moment” and not what you were taught or the negatives you’ve seen” To the blacks I say: Speaking correct English is not “selling out”! Opening your mind to new ideas, friends, food, etc. can only ENRICH your life as long as you never forget who you are!! Both sides need to really re-evaluate their ideas of TRUTH and LOVE!! It’s not that hard!! Stop trying to fit into the stereotypes put forth by society!!
I change when I walk into work, too. I choose my words and my clothing very carefully, and act with the most responsibility. I am 22 and do not want to be seen as young, irrisponsible, apathetic, etc. Am I white, acting white? Or perhaps am I a fallable human attempting to represent my best self in the workplace rather than who I represent to my friends?
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,344190,00.html
In cities like Detroit, the high school graduation rate is less than 30%. Unfortunately, many in the black community shun education, and consider it “being white”. We need more Bill Cosbys to speak out against this. Back in middle school, my neighbor was black, we were best of friends outside of school, but at school, he didn’t want any of his black friends seeing him hanging with a white guy. We wouldn’t even talk or acknowledge each other at school, but as soon as we got off the bus we’d start talking and I’d go to his house and play Nintendo and toss a football around.
What the heck is a Jack and Jill club in the UK? It is the name of a sex club in the USA. Please, less British slang! We can’t answer your question if you use British slang.
Cali R.
Beaverton, Oregon
This has nothing to do with race, the lack of philosophical intelligence that sparks this kind of discussion is criminal! White people happen to have been at the center of the world’s economic success. It could be any race in this position. In order to do business with a client you try and relate to them and their culture. There is no deleterious motivation in this - it is just plain obvious! Many white people don’t act “white” either. There are many poor white folks who use street talk and don’t dress like professionals. Additionally, the world is becoming ever more global and all cultures are becoming slowly homogenized - white included.
Scott
Portland, Oregon
Living in a foreign or new culture can cause different reactions from people. From my observations, there are 3 types of common reactions.
One reaction is the thought “I have to adopt everything in this new culture and abandon everything of my own culture in order to ‘become mainstream’ and succeed.” Those people often try so hard to look, speak, act like an “imagined” typical white person or a “mainstream American or British,” except, they cannot change their skin colors. However, those people don’t realize imitation is not creation. A person who denies his own past and wants to look like someone else does not respect himself. A person without self-respect will not get respect from others. I would dare to say the “white” people, who are being imitated, may be “fond” of him, but will never look at the imitator as an equal.
The opposite reaction is when a person refuses to accept and adopt any part of the new culture and society and retreats to the culture where he came from. They refuse to change even in smallest details. In this case, those people are loosing a great opportunity to improve and become a better human being that the new society offers them.
A third way a is to have the best of both worlds. The person realizes that he should critically examine both cultures and distill the best form both. He will not indiscriminately reject his own culture, and he will not indiscriminately adopt everything the new culture offers. He gets a deeper understanding of the bad and good of his own culture, at the same time, he sees the jewels and junks in the new society. He retains the good part of the culture where he came from, while learning the best part of the new culture he is in now. He makes conscious efforts to adjust to certain social customs in the new society he is living in, such as shake hands instead of bowing. At the same time, he retains the foundation of his own culture inside him, and builds on that foundation a better human being, using the good and valuable from the new culture. That person conveys the sense of a person with pride and self-respect, and gets respect from others.
All cultures and societies have something to offer a person, and the issue is the person has to discriminate among what a culture offers and to make his intelligent choice.
@ Nancy
At work, it’s always best to just be quiet, do what you’re told, and don’t rock the boat. It’s not the place to be an indivual, it’s not a place to speak your mind, it’s not a place to find dates, you are there to work. You have to be a different person at work than you are outside of work if you want to keep your job. Remember, you are constantly evaluated at work. Even if it were an outting at a restuarant, you are still being evaluated. Hence this is why with my job I work to live, rather than live to work. I do my time and then I’m gone, and don’t think about it until the next day.
It seems that in South Africa where black used to include Asian and mixed race South Africans, now it is more exclusive. Just African. As an example see the reaction of Mr. Stofile when he was not elected the head of the South African Rugby Union. Mr. Stofile claimed there was no place for blacks in SA rugby, although the incumbent chairman and his opponent is coloured (mixed race).
Wessel in South Africa
If you run a business dealing with the public……..employees really do have to deal with customers using customary MANNERS and STYLE.
These things are not “WHITE”, but rather they are standard methods of dealing with people in the broad Western culture.
Bill Cosby, (the wonderful black comedian and actor), who I greatly admire, as a decent and worthwhile citizen of the world, says he cannot deal with Black people who cannot speak English and operate in a society that really does require a certain comfort and universal code of conduct, that reflects on the overall culture. Speaking English and enjoying a basic education is needed in order to slide into and become a productive, happy and contributing member of this society.
Speaking a language of slang, gargan and obnoxious behavior devoid of family given moral code, that only gang members understand; does not bode well for being accepted into the overall culture.
Asians seem to be reared by strong families. They generally learn the ropes, get the education, and ticket punching, that set up individuals well for making money, and ability to do well in the society.
Race really does not have much to do with figuring out wha