We’re off air now, but you can podcast the programme here
FROM ROS:
Sexy or clever. Does it matter which is more important to a teenage girl? Has feminism achieved what it set out to do, and are the latest general of girls and young women squandering hard-won opportunities?
I could spend 1OO Daily Emails discussing the definition of feminism but let me start with this. It’s a movement that has sought to remove gender inequality in all societies in the world. At the heart of this was the right of women to own property, to have equal opportunities in the work place and be paid equally, to live without fear of violence and the right to vote. Added to this must be the goal of stopping society from judging women by their appearance (famously put into words in the 90s by Naomi Wolf in The Beauty Myth), and instead judging them by their intellect, their personality and their achievements (though what an achievement is we could also debate).
The question is, looking at a range of stories in the news today, has feminism achieved these targets?
1. Better sexy than clever. US academic Carol Platt Liebau argues that’s the attitude of teenager girls. Hardly what feminism had in mind.2. Religious vigilantes have killed at least 40 women this year in the southern Iraqi city of Basra because of how they dressed.
3. Oprah tipped to have major US election impact.4. ‘Domestic violence is the single biggest health impact on women between the ages of 15-44″, says Australian expert.
5. Rwanda wins equality award with 48% female MPs.
6. Mini skirts don’t mean yes to sex in South Africa. But that’s what many men think.
HAS FEMINISM FAILED? SOME ANSWERS FROM THE NET:Thinking girl blog / Blogger on a cast iron balcony / Moxie.nu
NO SHOW TOMORROW… BUT STAY TUNEDWe’re off air tomorrow because it’s the first of three special debates recorded to mark the 75th anniversary of the BBC World Service. It’s been recorded already so you won’t be able to contribute to the discussion, but we’ll post on the blog so there’s somewhere for you to leave your reaction.
75th Season: http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/freetospeak/
Speak to you later.
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I think feminism has failed because many women have realized the undeniable truth about life, that working sucks. That’s why it’s called work, and not fun. The women that become workaholics are even disliked by other women. However, the women who get an education, rack up huge debt, then decide they don’t want to work anymore, I really get upset when I see this, they then get married and rely on a guy so long as his income is sustainable. If he loses his job, she leaves him. I don’t think this is just a problem with feminism, or maybe it is, but I see women being far more self absorbed than past generations. I look at my older relatives who stuck together through richness or for poorer, sickness and in health, and today ,give most divorces are initiated by women, if everything is fairy tale, they just cut and run. I think women have been raised to think they are princesses and feel they are entitled to “the perfect life” which means they can be cruel if they don’t feel they’re getting what they are entitled to. So I basically have more respect for the workaholic female, that truly wanted equality, not special treatment, to not rely on a guy. I know several “feminist” women that have very wealthy guys paying for their education, their housing, etc, and they decide either to not work, or to work extremely low paying jobs, unable to support themselves, so they rely on someone else. That’s hardly feminism if you ask me..
hi Ros. its a shem for believers of today! where did the old dedicated believers go? indeed here in uganda the traditional churches (catholic and protestant) have lost members and are becoming less popular. its been mainly to new embrace of western life by todays youth who find no time for church,. actually politically church is less influetial here in uganda.
byaruhanga nicholas, kampala uganda we love u ros (by email)
Dear Ros: Hi, how are you my good friend?! I’m twenty one years old, and I love to look elegant and pretty, there’s nothing wrong with that right?! But the problem is that: Do I want to look pretty and elegant because I want to satify myself or because I want to satisfy someone else?! Here comes the borderline between “looking pretty” and “looking sexy”! As for me, I do believe that if a woman has a worthy content of thoughts and opinions inside her, then she will not need to look sexy in order to satisfy other men, because at then she’ll have enough confidence in herself and she’ll be stronger and more invulnerable than “internally empty” women! With my love! Lubna in Baghdad!
Hi Ros,
In last Friday’s email, you stated the following,
“This is our last day in our temporary office before we move downstairs into the swanky new one they’ve been putting together. I’ll stick a photo up on the blog next week to see if you’re impressed.”
But up to now there is no picture(s) of the new office on today’s blog. Now I’m not impressed. I’m depressed!
Please, do it as soon as possible.
Regards,
Abdelilah Boukili,
Marrakesh, Morocco
From Ros:
I’ve just received this email from Abdelilah:
‘Hi Ros,
In last Friday’s email, you stated the following,
“This is our last day in our temporary office before we move downstairs into the swanky new one they’ve been putting together. I’ll stick a photo up on the blog next week to see if you’re impressed.”
But up to now there is no picture(s) of the new office on today’s blog. Now I’m not impressed. I’m depressed!
Please, do it as soon as possible.
Regards,
Abdelilah Boukili,
Marrakesh, Morocco’
You’re right Abdelilah. I’m a little rushed today but the picture will grace the blog tomorrow morning I promise.
Ros,
What about covering the story about the two shootings in Colorado yesterday, one at a Christian missionary training centre outside of Denver, and the other at a mega-church in Colorado Springs? Five are dead as a result of the attacks.
Nanci
Hi Nanci. I’m not sure it’s a major global talking point. I agree it’s an important story but it hasn’t been picked up as a point of conversation in the way that the Nebraska shooting was.
cheers,
Ros
Sex is a major factor in people’s behaviour by either practice or abstinence. The sexual revolution of the 60s seems to have left a great impact on today’s girls. They seek more freedom from their parents or family. It has become natural in many societies to see single mothers whose children’s father may be unknown even to them.
Advertisement and fashion also play a great role in how girls should look and behave. In the past, many areas like bars were exclusive just to men. Today in the name of equality girls are indulging in behavioural activities to assert themselves. It’s no wonder if priorities are given to sex appeal as it is in fact a woman’s nature to seek admiration and open compliments.
Many women find it difficult to get what they want through “logical” persuasion or qualifications. They use their sexual powers at the place of work with their colleagues and employers to advance quickly profiting from their own advances and the advances of the males around them.
In developed countries it is a foregone conclusion that, in most cases, if a man is set on marriage he will meet a career woman since women have become a major force in the market although discrepancies still remain for top jobs. But this fact is creeping in developing countries. Some work areas recruit more women than men such as the textile industry and nursing.
A lot of men are resentful to see women at the top because of their chauvinism. When it comes to marriage, a man likes to be the boss in the house. For that, a woman with a career -especially superior to his- finds it difficult to have the last word.
A man still sticks to his sense of superiority to women. It is no wonder if the majority of men prefer for their marriage a woman who is less old, less tall, less rich, less educated, less situated in work than them. Some women, if not the majority of them, take pride in marrying men superior to them to show themselves and their surrounding how valuable they are. In a sense, women brandish the equality law just to have a status in society and to be independent. When it comes to relations or marriage it is nature that dominates. A man feels pride in protecting a woman and she, too, takes prides in being protected. A man seeks protection from a woman emotionally, rather than financially.
As career is about income and responsibility, some men find it difficult to adjust to the fact that the women with whom they share the same roof can be a person inside the house and another in the place of work, where they have professional responsibilities entailing professional relationships. Men, in other cases, resign to women with a career just for economic reasons or fir fear of not being able to have any prospect of marriage at all. it has now become rare to find a woman ready to sacrifice her career to be blessed by marriage, which at any time can end in divorce.
No. The fight for equality is still going on, just like with racism. You all know the expression, “Rome wasn’t built in a day.”. Feminism is just evolving. Unfortunatly, the truth is, like racism, no one group will ever be equal in the eyes of everyone.
-Anthony, Los Angeles, California
I hear you. I do know what you mean though—I’m not sure what kind of question would come out of it that would generate a really good HYS either. I’ve been trying to think of one. Perhaps once the gunman’s motives are known, it might generate something, e.g. was he a disgruntled church member or whatever. I’ll keep my ears open and when I figure out a good angle of how it could be a talking point, I’ll be back in touch with you and make my case for it!
Cheers,
Nanci
Has feminism failed? Yes and no.
The following were stated as the goals of feminism: equal opps at work, owning property, equal pay, living without the fear of violence, the right to vote, and stopping ‘society’ from judging women by their appearance. Apart from the last point, all these objectives have been achieved or are being addressed…in the West. Studies have shown that women who are childless and who work full time have career and pay achievments that are comparable to men’s. The differential between all other women and men is related to two facts: a greater proportion of women choose to work part-time, and women are more likely to be in and out of the labour force because of child-bearing and -rearing. Sexism in the work place is, for all practical purposes, with gender equality laws, dead.
Living without the fear of violence is a law and order issue and applies to all citizens regardless of sex. There’s nothing feminist about it. Women are always going to be more prone to violence from certain men because of their physical weakness. But as long as that crime is taken seriously by law enforcement (which is invariably the case across the Western world) there is nothing more for the feminist movement to do about this. Ownership of property by women has not been an issue in the West for generations (with the sepcial exception of primogeniture). I think this issue was resolved and gender equality established well before the feminist movement appeared. Similarly with the right to vote. The last goal, though, has not been achieved, and I pray that it never is: ‘stopping society from judging women by their appearance.’ ‘Society’ means nothing in this context. Stopping ‘individuals’, male and female, from making such judgements could only be accomplished through a system of totalitarian control of thought and conduct that would mean the end of a free society. the cure is infinitely worse than the disease, and the disease itself is not one that any serious-minded person should worry about. Except when it comes to advertising, dating and marrying, no woman is judged on her looks in any circumstance that matters. And in any case, respect for the aesthetic truth means such judgements are perfectly in order. Some women are beautiful. It’s something you notice. It’s a quality you’d like in ‘your woman’, though not the only one or even the most important one. I can’t understand why feminists should so agitated about this. It’s only an issue because – in the advanced socieites of the West – they’ve achieved all their important goals and only have this this piece of frivolity left.
Feminism has been a success in the West. But it’s been a failure elsewhere, largely because of the cowardice of Western feminists. The real challenge to feminism lies in the developing world. Genital mutilation, rampant sexism, systematic rape (Darfur, Congo), institutionalised gender apartheid, the physical exploitation of women and girls (including but going beyoind sex trafficking): all of these pathologies are to be found, in varying degrees, in most of the developing world. But the greatest bastion of women-hating values and practices is the muslim world. The Burkha and niqab are perfect symbols of Islam’s deep-rooted sexism. Women exist according to men’s whims and sexual anxieties. A woman isn’t a person in her own right, she is a potential snare for men who – by their own admission – cannot control their sexual appetites. Everything else follows from that, leading to a whole web of regulations (aka sharia) that reduce too many women to little more than black-robed breeding machines.
That’s a real challenge for Western feminists – who are generally the only women with the freedom to address these issues and not be beaten, imprisoned or murdered for their pains. But they have failed entirely to make headway on this. Western feminists have, almost without exception, remained silent in the face of the worst anti-women excesses by Islam, including outrages that happen in Western countries with muslim communities. In the muslim world women may be raped with impunity because of the absurd rules of evidence that anti-woman sharia insists on. Women, as we know, have even been punished for being raped. Women are stoned or even executed for adultery. Women do not always have the right to vote. Western feminists have not had a word to say about any of this. They have been equally craven when it comes to Islamic misogyny in the West. In several communities in northern England some muslims cultivate young non-muslim girls for under-age sexual activity: silence from English feminists. In all muslim communities many women are under the iron-hand of a patriarchy that keeps them emphatically in their place: silence from feminists. In Australia and Scandinavia there has, for several years, been a ‘muslim rape epidemic’, with muslims disproportionately responsible for the rape of (usually non-muslim) women: silence from the feminists (and never, as far as I know, reported in any detail bynthe BBC). In France, ‘youths’ are known to discipline uppity muslim women who are considered too Westernised in their ways by gang-raping them into more submissive behaviour. The French even have a word for this interesting social phenomenon. But, as usual, there is silence from feminists in that country and in the rest of Europe. Girls are subjected to forced marriages, often with the aid of beatings. The unlucky ones who refuse a marriage or make a choice of their own can look forward to being murdered by the men in their families in an (grotesquely name) ‘honour crime’. Western feminists who foam at the mouth and make an issue of naked women in magazines lose the power of speech and action when it comes to naked aggression, sometimes homicidal, directed at women and girls.
Feminism has succeeded in the West in every way that matters. But in facing the real challenges that remain from the women-hating cultures of many parts of the developing world feminism has failed miserably and shamefully. It has been, through its silence, complict in the worst abuses of women, institutionalised misogyny, that can be laid at the door of Islam, the worst offender in this respect.
Feminism no longer deserves anybody’s respect.
Iain here from the WHYS team.
Just to let you know we’ve got Jean Edelstein coming onto tonight’s programme. She’s a journalist who has recently written a paper arguing that today’s feminists have lost their way. They’ve gone soft she argues – talking more about work-life balance and the gender pay gap than the more fiery issues of sexual violence and the subjugation of women.
If you’ve got a question or want to talk to Jean send us an email worldhaveyoursay@bbc.co.uk or post here.
Hello All,
In a past, life I knew a strikingly beautiful and ardently feminist young lady.
I suggested to her that feminism, despite its relevance and clear benefits to women (and men!), would not long remain a vital force on the political stage. She became remarkably upset and demanded I rethink my position. Instead I ask: “How many children will you have?” She replied; “none.” I made no additional comments.
My advice to intelligent young ladies is always: “Find an intelligent, caring man who listens to you and values you as a human being; then have an large number of children and teach them to be and to do likewise.”
later,
g
We men have struggled for centuries to maintain the myth that upper body strength is the best measure of a person’s value, and every time the veneer starts to crack someone comes along to bail us out.
Thank you, Britney Spears.
John in Salem (by email)
The gender pay gap is an absolute fraud. The based it off of averaging the salaries of men and women, regardless of their field, and it came out that men made more. It doesn’t take into account that lost of women choose to go into low paying fields such as teaching or non profit work. Also even in higher pay fields, women tend to quit or work part time. So if a woman is apart time lawyer, billing 15 hours a week, vs a man who is a fulltime lawyer who bills 90 hours a week, the guy is going to make more money.
In fact, studies have come out recently that state that young women, under 30 make more money than men their age in large US cities.
http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN0334472920070803
Basically until the age of 30, women make more money. And after that age, women decide to start a family, or just quit their jobs, or work part time, because they realize working sucks. So that’s why their incomes drop off, becuase men have no choice but to continue to work, whereas women can choose to work a lot, or choose to rely on a man. I cannot tell you how many grrll power feminists I know that work inredibly low paying non profit jobs who wouldn’t be able to afford their lavish lifestyles without a guy providing for them.
Feminism has be a success story in the west but talk of Asia and Africa there is still along journey to be covered.
Hi Ross,
Women just need ATTITUDE,and nothing will stop them.Men will do nothing for them unless they do it themselves, and that is why several have managed to reach where they are today.
Togo Kasoro
KAMPALA UGANDA
I would like someone to define what feminism is today – it certainly isn’t what is was back in the 70′s.
If it is the right to equal pay for the same job – then is has failed. But like many things, it [feminism] has been hijacked by the politically correct for some subversive agenda. What people should do is read the whole history of feminism and those who foundered it. It isn’t a one issue movement.
Feminism is growing by the day like wild fire.In Spain they are called,los famosos-which translates the famous ones.There is a special show on TV for these type of women to show the Spanish audience how obsessed they are in buying a costy cosmetics-like make-ups just to make them more beatiful to attrack rich men.In the work place men who cannot control themseves they would tend to abuse their colleagues,especially the kind of dress which the women put on and some men were asked to quit their jobs and py a fine after they were found guilty of molesting their female colleaques.There are women who udergo plastic sugery to reduce their breast chin and nose and some times their teeths.This has made so many young women to fall ill as a result of changing their natural beauty.No matter what shape you may take you are for the men and the men are for you.
A wise man said that a woman is a man minus reason and accountability. I think that most “feminists” these days want the best of both worlds. They want all the rights, but without the responsibilities. I think a true feminist wants true equal rights, not just the benefits, but also the burdens. I think the mentality that goes along with the wanting the best of both worlds are the common women that dress in revealing clothes, but then complain that men are staring at them. Sorry, but that’s not being accoutable. If you don’t want men to stare, don’t wear revealing clothes. The thing is they want the attention, but only from men they deem desireable. Kind of also the same thing with sexual harassment, which I don’t condone, but when a woman tells me “it’s only sexual harassment if you aren’t attracted” I start to think about what’s going wrong with this society.
Femenism has failed as it destroyed families and force a Western Style of Life on those who do not want one. I recommend Stefania Harris’s Interpretation of Womanism [which is in indigenous movement in Iran].
Dean in Portland, Oregon
I thought the feminist movement was great being a man. However, as I get older it seems women in general are more concerned with fulfilling the old sexual stereotypes than not. Women are in more media positions than ever but instead of changing the media to eliminate the old sexual stereotypes we end up with Victoria Secret catalog commercials and all kind of female sexuality in our faces on the media all the time.
nick in portland
I am all for equal rights for women. In the spirit of equality, women should also be required to sign up for the selective service. Men shouldn’t be treated as second class citizens when it comes to forced service. Do you’re guests support this form of equality?
Ken in Cleveland
Feminism is very much alive, relevant and still growing. The problem with feminism is that it doesn’t fit into misogynistic social and religious paradigms. Until men can be comfortable with themselves and stop trying to impose their wills on women, the fight for equality will continue.
Dean, because most women still want men to provide for them. In the US, regardless of a woman’s income level, most still will only date/marry up, though someone will date on their own income level. But they realize they have to look good to get a man to buy things for them.
Listening to the programme. It really does sound like an outbreak of crazed feminist syndrome. The African representative has serious issues on her continent, though I suspect some exaggeration (like being chased by machete-wielding sexists for contesting an election).
The two Western women couldn’t be more absurd. There are no serious feminist issues left in the West and they know it. The North American lady is especially offensive in her desire to convict more men of rape – regardless of the evidence. The courts test the evidence and if a jury is not convinced then that should be the end of the matter. Some women do lie about being raped and so the mere accusation can never be an indication of anything at all until the facts are established, or not, as the case may be.
Any American woman who is going to let her vote be affected by Oprah or Babs Streisand is unfit to vote.
Could your Western feminists switch off their bile against Western societies for a second and tell us what they have done about Islamic misogyny?
Jennifer
As a College student I was shocked that the majority of my female friends were alarmed by the fact I caused myself a feminist. Many young women believe feminism is a bad thing, rejecting feminity! I try to explain that feminism is about equal rights not rejecting feminism, but a bad steroeotype exists among young women.
Best,
Jennifer Banister
Michigan
Nick in Portland, don’t hold your breath. That would mean the burdens of being equal, modern feminists only want the benefits of equality, not the burdens, so they will not be required to sign up with the selective service any time soon. So while they’re complaining about not making as much as a man working 100 hour weeks while she works as a substitute teacher, you and I might be getting killed for our country, getting paid $17,000 a year as a Private in the army…
Kevin writes
They aren’t mutually exclusive. Intelligence and beauty complement each other. It works that way for men as well. I want to be attractive, but not at the expense of being smart.
If a woman is confident, that is attractive to me.
My advice to any woman who thinks that she needs to dumb down to attract men, is that she needs to ask herself, “what kind of man do you want to attract?”
Kevin
Scott from Portland, Oregon listening on OPB
Society expects men to look a certain way also. The problem is not so much male and female at this point. It is society in general. Whats important to the average person of both sexes is egregious, look around at popular culture. Now more the ever in history marketing reflects the real tastes of the average consumer and the result all around is mediocrity in every way.
Ayo emailed WHYS
While on my commute to work today, My mind kept running towards Lil Kim the female rapper. I kept thinking about how intelligent she is and business savvy. Yet I keep thinking about how she would not be recognized if she didn’t use her trump card which is sexiness to get herself noticed as intelligent. I think the thing is women have two powers, intelligence and sex. But we are only respected first after we have shown our sexiness. Sometimes I hate men for the things they do to women, but I oftentimes I hate women more for allowing those things to happen to them, (i.e. Pamela Anderson and her need to look like a sex tool for men) and those who don’t have the power to prevent those things, I resent because I know how it is to be powerless in the hands of a manipulative man.
Steve
Didn’t India used to burn the living widows of dead men? I am pretty sure that has changed, I hope.
I do wish somebody would mention the way teen females present themselves online (MySpace, Xanga, Facebook, etc.) – sexy, hot-stuff and monickers of that type are the norm. And, as to the pictures …(!).
I believe there’s a role for parents to play, telling their daughters to “cool it!”.
From Nicholas: Alexandria, Egypt
i think and the world should learn to adopt to the changes in culture around the world. the world should get it that things have changed from our fore fathers to today. here in egypt the i have been shocked the girls and women put on tight pants things i dont expect in an islamic country.(am a ugandan studying here in alexandria egypt)
-Diepiriye (dee-ep-pre-yay)
A Nigerian-American living in New Delhi, India
With feminism just like racism and classism, the targets of the discrimination were made responsible for societal change. Look at pop music, for example, that is money driven, but many, many women are successful. Radical feminists like bell hooks asks us to question the basis of power, not just who is in power: Men versus women (and that includes dominating children or anyone seen to be weaker than heterosexual men). Feminism should help us reset our objectives, and that would include creating peace through peace, nt by enforcing peace through violence.
Men must be feminists, too. White people must divest from racism. The wealthy must also divest from elitism. Only then will feminism reach its aim!
Feminism is alive, but the problem is the platform and method in which they act. There is a double standard expected of men from women. We are to treat them as equals and bring them flowers. Well, I don’t bring men flowers, I bring women flowers. But that’s not treating them equally now is it?
In the work place women flirt with men and it’s socially Okay, but if men do it, it’s harassment. Women claim to want a sensitive guy, who respects them, but they date complete jerks. Actions speak louder than words. It has been shown in other reports on the BBC that women are treated far better than men in the workplace and are often promoted over men, and if they are paid less on average that is most likely that is because women don’t ask for more money.
What about maleism? What about the fact that I am supposed to act a certain way, dress a certain way, not to mention that I have all these different rules and regulations on how I am supposed to relate to my female friends whether in the workplace or in private life. There is just as much pressure, if not more so on men, because we not only have the same societal expectations that women do, many of those expectations are also made into law. I can’t say this, or do this, or act like that, but a woman can. That is called a double standard, which is why so many things have not changed for women in the work place.
As well, as a white male, I am automatically considered in the wrong demographic for job hiring practices. If I don’t get hired, I can’t claim sexual discrimination, and thus companies are more often than not hire a female so as avoid possible litigation.
The solution is simple: Look up the word EQUALITY and realize that that is not what women truly want: they want special dispensation.
What someone looks like has become more important for both men and women. The TV is full of beautiful people doing beautiful things, in beautiful places. We are growing up in a visual and image conscious culture. Is it a suprise that people concentrate on how they look and not on their internal development.
There’s nothing sexier than an intelligent woman, and I feel sorry for anybody (woman OR man!) who thinks otherwise.
Being stupid isn’t sexy.
Patrick
Santa Cruz, CA, USA
Listeners,
Sex or clever for a woman, that’s a brilliant question. Maybe one question above that is, how do you find a good leader? Doesn’t matter to me who the leader is, but it’s hard to find a good one.
I think that’s why men go after the clever bit (it’s so difficult to lead, who wants that job), and leave the sexiness.
Joey
Colorado, USA
Greg
wow, these women are angrier that I am which is really saying something.
Sarah
Hafnarfjordur, Iceland
I’m hurrying away from cooking for my family to say this, but you have not said a word about childrearing. Until you do, you will not reach what feminism needs to touch. I want the same thing as my husband does: not cleverness, not admiration, but the best way to raise my children to adulthood.
Scott in PORTLAND USA
Feminism has not failed – human beings in general have failed. This sounds negative but it is reality. If men and woman become entirely equal on every level, society will find some other way to push groups down, whether it is smokers, obese people, ugly people, weird people, they will find a way. Religion has also done this for a zillion years.
–
Who can blame young women for wanting to be sexy over being intelligent? They face the extraordinary challenge of pairing with a generation of young men whose sexual tastes are almost entirely shaped by internet pornography. As a young woman myself I wish I could live in the future with a man from the past.
Giselle,
The Netherlands
As a 35 year old woman and lifelong feminist, I have to say that I’m heartily sick of the question “has feminism failed?” The articulate women on this show demonstrate that feminism continues to thrive, seeking to address the concerns of women – economically, politically, and culturally – in many different countries and circumstances.
There are many goals yet to be achieved in the west and around the globe. And yet, I feel privileged to live in this time, where I personally benefit from many things that feminism achieved over the course of the last century. I have the vote, I have had access to higher education, I have been able to have a successful career. I survived childhood sexual abuse and was able to recover in part because feminists made sexual abuse a matter of public discussion. I have a relationship in which I am an equal partner, and domestic responsibilities are equally shared. All of this is partly the result of women who came before me speaking up for the rights of women.
There is much yet to be achieved if women are to be accorded the same human rights as men – both in our political, legal, and economic systems as well as in culture. But let’s not define feminism in terms of failure, please – there is a long history of hard-won successes that deserves to be validated.
Rachael
Portland, OR USA
Nick in the U.S. says…
Let’s face it women…
Feminism is a tricky thing, and it all depends on which part of the globe you are located.
In most part of the world, women values have changed, and have turned to physical attraction to obtain respect and status. Women are not respected for their smarts or their intelligence.
If you are not rich like Oprah Winfrey or a slim blonde Caucasian female, you will have a hard time getting by in this world.
eyram agbemava from Ghana.
yes, to some extent i would say feminism has failed, becausein the midst of all the feminist groups, we still have women who are being abused domestically, women are still playing the secondary role in the society and in most instances they are being regarded as only good for child bearing and as objects of sex.
However, on the larger picture i think feminism has not failed because society has for a very long time accepted violence and abuse against women and all kinds of gender based violence as normal.it’s quiet recently that feminism is being recognised and gaining public acceptance. in ghana for example, the number of women parliamentarians have improved over the years, a lot of women are also taking up leadership roles in the work places , more are being highly educated than men.
so i think it is too early to conclude that feminism has failed . we need to give ourselves a decade or more before coming to this conclusion.because, this idea of female subordination has been in existence for a long time. this means that for change to come, peoples mind must be reprogrammed to come to the point of accepting the faqct that women are capable that as seen to be.
Kevin
Vancouver WA USA
I think society should be frustrated with women’s rights because the battle for equality is not over. But there shouldn’t be despair either because things are changing. Look at life a hundred years ago versus fifty years ago, versus now. It is getting better.
Racism is evolving in much the same way.
I guess I should make it clear my comments are about women in the west. They seem to complain about their lives despite having such good lives. There is a real problem in countries like Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia where women cannot vote, drive, work, leave home without a male relative escort. They get beat for being raped. That’s where feminism is needed, though it’s not politically correct to criticize someone else’s culture, even if that culture oppresses women. So when you’re complaining about how unfair it is for you here in the west, just thank your lucky stars you can drive, vote, work (I know many of you realized how crappy working is!), do virtually everything a man can except you cannot get drafted here in the US. It’s you just take for granted so much what you have, it’s really repulsive actually.
I grew up during the era of the fight for women’s rights. When I went to high school I wanted to take “shop” but was told I couldn’t because girls didn’t do that – and was forced to take homemaking. In my upbringing I was most fortunate to never be told by my parents, “you can’t do that – you’re a girl”. Kudo’s to their forward thinking. My father even taught me how to do basic mechanics!
In all my adult life – divorced and married, I was the major wage earner, and now live happily single. A man is a friend and a companion – not a means to life. Nowadays girls are torn, they want babies, jobs but aren’t so sure they want to get married. From my point of view they are confused and I think society has a lot to do with it. Perhaps more emphasis on who we are as people and not “what we do/who we marry” needs to be had again.
Inside the progressive mind: Productive, confident, intelligent, articulate woman, well that’s nice. Aggressive, independent, “don’t need a man”, “want to have a baby, what’s the sperm bank for?” type of woman, not sexy, not nice, very dangerous. Ideally though, I believe women deserve and should have more opportunity.
As I’ve always said: I like a woman who gives good mind. I am respectful of their ideas, and don’t spend my evening staring at their chest.
Guess what: I’m still single.
All the guys that try women in bed: they have girlfriends or are married.
Like I said: Actions speak louder than words.
If anyone here has seen the mothers of these teenage girls, the mothers dress the same too, except they aren’t exactly in the best shape. So you have women in their 40s dressing that way too. And are we to give them excuses to for doing that? They aren’t exactly immature teenagers, they are women in their 40s who apparently are quite shallow.. Anyone in the US, please go look at the mothers out there. It’s really unbelievable.
I was reared in feminism. In the 70′s I was arrested for participating in an ERA rally in KY. I am greatly saddened daily to learn and know that most of the world still regards women as not equal to men. Women ARE my equals and I welcome their input in all aspects of my life. Women provide insights men cannot even begin to begin to think! We need you as intellectuals AND as sexy creatures. Both roles are important. Young women need to know that being a feminist is not exclusive of being sexy!!!! Get with it and MAKE your presence known!!!
steve frightens me.
L. Walker, yes, please stick your head in the sand.
Women are probably the major powers selling other women out. For instance all those super models and all those actresses, who will not quit trying to make us see them as beautiful and sexy. They do interesting things to their bodies, make their bodies unnaturally perfect and symmetrical to a point that natural human beings are not born and then we the ordinary are made to feel inferior. Men dont have much pressure. I mean look at biggie, Look at sean Kingston, big pun, Fat Joe, the Ying yang twins, Busta Rhymes. Those are the ugliest men one can think of. yet they are highly admired etc.Look at Amy whinehouse landing on FHM’s ugliest list. I mean I agree she is hideous, but a few women cant take being bombarded with the “idealistic” image of beauty and so rebel. and on which national list did Fat Joe ever land on for being overly fat or ugly?
Pamela Anderson is the one that annoys me the most. She is no Hero or role model. I have decided that when my child is born, if she’s a girl, I will not even allow her to play with that nonsense Bratz doll. I will not even alow her to watch those old time movies where the blonde bombshell is very silly and a tease to men.(swooning for the most foolish reasons) Star wars, Lord of the rings, Star trek and Maybe League of extraodinary gentlemen ( whats with the corseted nonsense in that movie?) I dont want a bimbo for a daughter. I will send her back to the village so she can take pleasure in hard work. I will not allow her to suffer from the complexes her mother suffered about her weight and height. My daughter will be a proud, strong,intelligent African woman. whether she is short and fat. she will not feel the need to get a blonde weave. She will not feel the need to get bigger breasts. I hate what women are subjected to. Until I stopped watching TV IN May, I was under suicidal presure to look sexy. but now, I only feel the need to look smart and sharp. Now men open the doors for me and call me ma’am and stupid men who have little to no education and who only want to say “hey shorty” do not even dare approach me. I get approached by very intelligent men, Men who it tickles me to no end, are trying really hard to sound proper and intelligent. I command respect and men who forget themselves are cut of so fast they are afraid to encounter me again. I just cant stand being viewed as good for sex alone. I hate it so much, The next guy who says hey shortie to me and begins to elaborate on how fiiiiinnnnneee I am, will still be talking when the cops come to arrest him for sexual harrassment and even attempted rape.
Ros,
You can’t be serious. That topic is like one big internet troll. How can anyone expect a movement that’s only maybe 40 years old have solved the world’s sexism problems that have been going on for several millenia? That’s absurd. To say it’s failed is like boiling water for five minutes and saying you’ve “failed” to make fettucini alfredo. It’s only started.
And to the guy who wants women “equality” to include forced enlistment in the armed forces: Buddy, I’ll join the Army when you can get raped and become pregnant. Clearly you’ve failed to understand what “equal rights” means and what it’s trying to achieve. But then, from what I’m reading here, that seems to be a huge problem the world over. (A lot of these posts make me want to gouge out my eyes, they’re so stupid.)
Besides, that “beauty vs. brains” question is a terrible measure for young girls. They are extremely vulnerable at that age to hormonal foibles. They want to be liked, to be appealing, to not be rejected. Intelligence has never been valued in our country over looks. Why blame feminism for failing to teach girls otherwise? This lies squarely on the shoulders of the whole village.
So, Victor, here we go again…………….against the Muslim world!!!!!
Once again, I would like to emphasize that your concept of violence against women ONLY in Muslim countries is not correct because violence against women is worldwide, it is not confined to the Muslim world. West, East or any part of the world is not free from rape and domestic violence. Why are there women and even child protection organizations in the west, not to mention specific helplines??????
Addressing the hijab as women suppression seems quite strange and irrelevant, when we are faced with more serious issues suppressing the freedom of humans
Hi Ros,
God created men and women to compliment each other, not to compete for who is best.
We can have egalitarian rights, but fundamentally we functon differently- emotionally, physiologically,etc. I am yet to see a man who has carried a baby naturally for 9months and yet to hear of a woman who has naturally impregnated a man.
Feminism and misogyny will both always fail cos they are not natural!
Atsu
Accra, Ghana.
From George in the States:
Has feminism failed?
Both succeeded and failed.
More pay for women and new opportunities are available.
At the same time the definition of feminism seems to have gone off into space where that is not the object any longer, leading to bizarre and destructive goals and behaviors.
Are young women embracing the original goals? No. There seems to be great adherance to the various spin off goals, that do not help them one way or the other and can and does destroy some.
Cutting loose the role of women from homemaker, wife and mother left a power vacum which has gone bad on most of it’s roles that extremists promote, something very akin to the extremists Muslims in some ways- things that just do not work in theory or practice.
Any of the faces of “feminist” that ultimately harm women more than help them as a group, are negative.
There is a great deal more of these faces today than more of society and women wish to acknowledge.
There is still a “glass ceiling” in the West that blocks women from achieving equality in terms of employment equality, the right to live in peace and security, and, to some extent, to own property. In these regards, the feminist movement has not yet completed its goals. And women most certainly do not have any equality in terms of being judged by their intellect and not their bodies. The media – especially advertising – has hindered, not helped the progress of women in this regard.
I think, though, the the feminist movement needs to re-thinks its goals. Rather than setting out goals that assume the physical and emotional similarity of men and women, the feminist movement needs to make goals that take into account the unique physical and emotional condition of women. For example, I do not want the equal opportunity – and expectation that comes with it – to work in a factory.
Shirley Wilson, Chicago
Being beautiful opens a lot more doors for women than being clever does. It’s the way it works. I am no stunning beauty, and there are completely vacuous idiots above me who do little and accomplish nothing, except look pretty and they keep being elevated despite their incompetence, and I have to fight much harder for progression than they do.
Stephanie
Unbelievable comment from Maria:
And to the guy who wants women “equality” to include forced enlistment in the armed forces: Buddy, I’ll join the Army when you can get raped and become pregnant. Clearly you’ve failed to understand what “equal rights” means and what it’s trying to achieve. But then, from what I’m reading here, that seems to be a huge problem the world over. (A lot of these posts make me want to gouge out my eyes, they’re so stupid.)
—
So self absorbed you cannot even see the sacrifices the people in the military have done. Sorry Maria, but for those men dying in your stead in WW2, you’d be a baby making machine if Nazism had won out. That would be your purpose. Those soldiers died for you, and l ike a typical modern ingrate, completely self absorbed, you of course cannot see, and surely aren’t grateful. So you’re “equal” but you don’t have to face the prospects of dying for your country. And you complain that you don’t have equality. Boo hoo. Grow up you entitled brat. The world doesn’t revolve around you. Get over yourself!
Women are given less respect than they actually deserve almost all over the world. Only the way they are being humiliated is different. ironically Women themselves have taken a big part in devalueing women. They shuld simply say no when expected to become a showpiece or something merely for sex purposes for men. This brings about so much corruption and poor moral standards in world societies.
A woman deserves better treatment, multitimes than men from their children.
Allah’s Messenger Muhammad (peace be upon him) expressed upon asking who deserves our good behaviour the most by saying “Your Mother” upon being asked “after her?” He again responded “Your Mother” upon being asked the third time “after her?” He responded “Your Mother” and eventually after being asked for the fourth time “after her?” He said “Your father”.
Women are not supposed to work for the whole family whether it’d be inhouse or outside in the public. She is supposed to be taken care of, provided her needs in the comfort of the house by men.
My heart aches when I see women on the billboards stripped of their clothes only in order to sell products. That is so disgustingly humiliating for woman. I wish the world starts respecting women the way they deserve.
VICTORK.In may 1 2003,I was reading a daily mail news paper,which I bought from a news strand here in Spain.I was startled to read about a woman called Carina Coleman aged 30.She used to work in a bank in London.Carina Coleman was sorounded by men in her working place,she was forced out of her job by a campaign sustained of bulling and sexual harassment.Worse still,commments were deleberately made about the size of her breasts.One bank refered to her as a ´´tethered goat and a bitch“ infront of colleaques.Apparently,Miss coleman claimed her colleaques fearing to be exposed due to unethical deals,she had to be excluded from key meetings and also cheated out of a 150,000 pounds bonus.Many prostitutes in Britain were strangled to death by a man who had had enough to see young girls in his neighbourhood standing at what you call there, red light zone.What about a doctor who injected 40 women and when he was arrested by the police and thrown in jail,he committed suicide? That is a clear intimidation of women who would want to make a difference in a developed world.In countries where sexual discrimination,un fair dissmisal,victimisation and un lawful deduction of wages against women in such ways,you cannot expect femmenism to gain strength in a country like that.It is a failure.Sabina Dardenne was 12 years when she was kidnapped on the 28 of May,1996 at Kain(near Yournai)in Belgium by a paedophile man known as Mark Dutroux.He tried to rape her,but he never succeded.As,indeed,in Spain many women are being victims of domestic violence by their husbands and the stingyness between couples have to be seperated by the court,while other women are murdered by their husbands because the justice does favour the women in court. Infact not a single day passes by without hearing of a girl or a woman disappearing and later on it is only the dead body that is to be found whereby the main causes remain a mystery.But,these are not Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan.These are countries that respect the rule of law and HumanRights.In 2001 a man was arrested for having sexually assulted fifty women some at the age of 80years old.When he was convicted and sentenced in prison his comprades killed him.One woman from the Carebian who came to do her masters degree in France was employed by French TV(TV5).She endured bullies by her men,because the french people loved her as good presenter.If you look only at the other side of your comments Victork,people will notice in your blog to be one sided or baised.You must understand that where ever there is a war there be evil things that will take place against women in particular. Gradually,Rwanda and Senegal are making a very good job interms of gender equality and I hope many African countries are on the way.
@ Aabi Zaidi: and hello to you, too.
You’re still in the habit of misreading my posts and then getting heated about what you’ve misunderstood. I wasn’t so foolish as to claim that there is violence against women only in muslim countries. That’s entirely in your head. The point I was making was that Western feminists had discredited themselves and their movement by their complete silence about the rampant misogyny in the muslim world. As usual, you do not challenge a single one of the many examples I gave about Islamic gender apartheid and oppression of women.
The agencies that exist in the West are there precisely because in Western culture this issue is recognised and is addressed in a variety of ways. The hijab is mentioned because it is a garment that women wear at the insistence of men (though many muslim women – utterly broken in their slavery to men – like to pretend, for the benefit of gullible Western liberals, that it’s their choice to dress in a way that obliterates their humanity and their womanhood, that they hate the Sun, and that they just love wearing that wondefully chic black sack).
The difference between the muslim and Western worlds when it comes to violence against women is that in the West it’s deviant behaviour and the official culture condemns and punishes it; in the world of Islam misogyny is the official culture, rooted in the Koran, and accepted by all but a handful of Westernised muslims (who are, in reality, probably not muslims at all but atheists and agnostics). Islam facilitiates the rape of women with its ludicrous rules of evidence; it has a range of cruel pubishments that only ever seem to be applied to women who are raped or found guilty of adultery or of consorting with ‘strange’ men; Islam has honour killings; gender apartheid…need I go on? And these praqctices don’t run contrary to the values of muslim countries, they are their values!
Your problem is that, like all muslims, you can’t bear listening to criticisms of Islam, especially from a non-muslim. Get over it. You have more serious things to worry about.
@ Chernoh Jalloh: what’s your point?
Everything you’ve noted as happening in Western countries is either a crime or an actionable civil offence. These things happen because human beings are what they are; what makes the West different is that there is no official or public support for violence or discrimination against women.
Re rape: yes, a universal thing, but some places are much worse for it than others. Sub-saharan Africa is probably the very worst region in the world for this, whether you want to hear that or not. I once read a newspaper report of what happened to a group of women in the Democratic Republic of Congo.I’ve never forgotten it. They were gang-raped repeatedly. Then they were flayed alive. Then they were forced into salt-water pools. When it was thought that they had suffered enough they had their heads cut off. I recall hearing on BBC radio about a Lesbian in (I think) Uganda. She had been raped. She reported it to the police. She explained to them that the men (yes, another gang-rape) who had assaulted her had been ‘offended’ by her sexuality and thought that raping her would correct it (at least that’s how they justified their behaviour to themselves). Upon hearing this explanation the officers raped her again in the police station. They, too, thought lesbianism a deplorable thing. There is something characteristically African about violence as brutal and cruel as this. I could point to further examples from Monrovia in the west to Johannesburg in the south (and btw, part of South Africa’s colossal crime problem is a colossal rape problem – including the rape of babies).
I’m glad to hear that African countries are making advances when it comes to women’s rights. But pointing to things that happen in Europe doesn’t change the fact that parts of Africa may as well be hell if you’re a woman.
Rebeling against God.
There is a real rebellion against God in feminists today.
Women were made from man. Not men from women.
Women were made for man. Not men for women.
The feminists attempting to be men, or reverse roles:
are like herbavors trying to be carnivores
or ducks trying to bring down a Wilderbeast in Africa.
This rejects the value of their function to fail at a function which is not theirs.
Ultimately, they rant and rave, hate and are miserable, as they have told God Almighty, we reject what You made us, so we are going to rebel against You God.
Rebellion against God Almighty, creator of us all does not hurt God or deminish God, but it does make the rebels very sick and unhappy.
Pretending it is not so, does not change it a bit.
Victor, go back to Ali’s topic about Islam,there you will find my answers to your challenges about Islam. i think you have missed reading them.
No, I am not misreading, I cannot emphasize enough on the fact that your concept about Islam facilitating rape of women is absolutely wrong! and I have answered that as well in my posts in Ali’s topic!!!Islam has taught to respect women, not the other way around! As I have said before, women suppression in Muslim world is ‘cultural’, not religious.
Look Victork.Iam an African living in the West,so I know many things that are happening,especially here in Spain.Mr Zapatero during is campaign ahead of the electons of 2004,he promised that gays and lesbians would have equal rights and the right to adupt children.But as soon as he was voted in as a prime minister,there was a serious protest against him and even the Bishops were angry agaist the legalisaton of gays in the country.The Bishops´salaries were reduced because they have condemmed the decision taken by the government on the issue of gays and lesbians.As I told you on my previous blog,in spain there is no war,but children are being raped here on a daily basis.The reason why women are being raped in Monrovia it was due to war.You have never mentioned of a rape incident that took place in Brasil when a woman was raped by five men in prison and even the police did the samething to her.Jamica,it is a taboo to talk about gays and lesbians you know as you are a current listener to the BBCWorldservice. In one of your blogs over China and Africa,you said Africa should stop dealing with China because the money that China is investing in Africa is a stolen one,I was surprised to read your comments,I really wanted to ask you where on earth you got that information from? Iam sure you never got it from the BBC. You may be alarmed about the huge investments by the Chinese in Africa.The Chinese were the only people who laid a railway line from Tanzania to Zambia for the copper mine.As soon as Guinea Conakry got its independence in 1958 from France the Chinese built the first Guinean Parliment and still they are investing heavily in the country.The Chinese are now building a foot ball field.There is a new project about building a highway and repairing their radio station(RTG).And those are just one of many examples i can give you for now.What has the EU-Africa summit achieved?The have not achieved anything favourable to Africa. Finally,you talked about Muslims who rape women, there is no Islamic book that justifies rape and honour killings.If any one does it he or she is doing it out of ignorace not in the name of Islam.Please try to read much about Islam and stop giving useless points.
Steve. it is true. you are ignorant and standing by a statement I am sure you have convinced yourself to be true. think truthfully. There are more and more women in the work place than ever before. Growing at a phenomenal rate. Absolutely phenomenal. The advertising industry and the film industry are excellent examples. In developing countries the same trend is seen. In all sectors of government and businesses. I am referring to your original comment.
George your comment about going against God is the worst comment i have ever read in any blog ever. Working women are going against God’s will??? You are fooled by your ignorance. NOt even Islam teaches that my son and I know that.
Women should be equal to men. In terms of respect in every possible situation imaginable. That is what God wants. Equality among people no matter what race or sex.
Last point: Feminism is so strong, the gay culture is also taking over, which I am against, but is nonetheless happening.
FEMINISM HAS NOT FAILED.
Feminism is as relevant today as it was when it started off. If anything, it has grown in scope and now addresses issues more diverse than the basic rights of women. The basic rights are still the central theme. There are many societies where the basic rights of women as equal citizens are not recognized. As long as such societies exist, feminism in its primary form remains relevant Even if feminists appear to be undesirably tolerant to women’s situation in places like Afghanistan, it is probably a concession to cultural sensitivities. Where culture and politics already form a volatile mixture, feminist stridency may set off explosive reactions. But eventually, the situation will be addressed when sufficient number of women from those societies acquire wriggling space. It cannot be driven from outside.
Then there are those societies where women have all rights legally, but the society has not yet assimilated the idea of equality. In such societies, women as individuals have to struggle on a daily basis to get what the law guarantees. Such societies are reluctant to allow women the freedom to live as independent individuals. There is pressure on individual women to remain dependant and pliable. India is such a society. The constitution and governments take pride in being fair and considerate to women. Women get tax concessions, they are given easy access to higher education, women’s achievements are cherished. But a woman living, or traveling alone needs to watch over her shoulder. Feminism is a relevant force in places like these.
Even when all basic rights are legally and practically protected, feminism still has subtle but important relevance. The underlying philosophy of the movement is to enable women to achieve their full potential as individuals, according to their choice; as against the traditional prescription that women live out their lives according to the plan society lays out for them. That means the movement addresses the aspirations of women, their needs, and yes, even their faults. Introspection is a part of the process of living as an individual. For that reason, feminism cannot confine itself to being a mere lobby. Eventually one should expect women to evolve into secure, empowered individuals who can afford to play fair and be generous in their dealings with –men (and women and children and the old).
So many postings have here have accused women of becoming more self absorbed, of asking for rights without accountability and so on. Many of these traits are relics of the old days. The old societies did not give women equality as individuals. But that does not mean the system was always stacked against women, or that it was stacked against every women. A lot of them fitted in and manipulated the system in their favour. These skills can be more potent when equality is added. Should it be binding on every woman to play fair? Should feminism spell it out? That would mean cutting out an ideal for women. The problem with ideals (in the past) has been that they force conformance and stifle. So, if feminism does cut out any ideal, it must be a flexible, changing one. And if we are talking about ideals for a woman, what about ideals for men, for the children…Ultimately, people have to tackle selfishness, manipulation etc, each on their own. Refuse to give in, or create awareness (write novels like Somerset Maughm?). And all said, the world is still a more difficult place for a woman. A few posts are critical of women for wanting to work part time, and some dismiss the pay gap by pointing out that in case of childless women, the pay figures are on par with men. If men can earn fulltime while being able to have their children raised, while women have to remain childless to earn the same amount, there is no parity. Parity for women would mean being able to do work that makes sense to them and be able to raise children. Yes, it is going to take a long time for these things to happen. There is work for feminism to do.
Part of the problem, I think, is that even though women want men to give up old fashioned notions of gender identity and the relationship between genders, women refuse to do the same. I’ll give you an example. Women STILL expect that any man they enter into a relationship with will make more money than they do, be better educated than they are, and pay for most things. The hard reality is that that is not possible anymore since women are taking more spots away from men in colleges and universities and in the job market after. It is hard to find a man who makes more money than you do when a large percentage of those above you are women. Rather than find a man less educated and less prosperous than themselves, they walk around moaning about not being able to find a man at all, well DUH! There’s plenty of men around, just not men who meet their lofty criteria based in a time when women COULD look for a man with a better education and more money than they have because most women stayed at home and didn’t pursue higher education or careers.
As women have elevated their position in society, they haven’t given up THEIR old fashioned notion that they need to find a man who is better off than they are and keep looking above themselves for a mate and there are none to be had up there because those positions are filled by women or men who are either already married, gay, scared to death to get involved with women because of the way the courts so freely hand over a man’s money and possessions to a woman just for sleeping with her, or single men who realize their value as a commodity and are not about to give up the attention lavished on them by all the desperately lonely liberated females around them by choosing one and settling down. As a woman becomes more established in her career and continues to improve her education and make more money, it gets even more difficult because the bar she sets for men goes up proportionate to her own level of success.
Feminism HAS failed in that even though it has elevated women in society, it hasn’t truly made them happy because they still want the things that women traditionally have wanted, a husband, home and children, but most won’t get them and so they will remain single and unhappy rather than look below them for someone they can be happy with.
I also think someone else got it right when they said that women got out into the working world and they had college loans, credit card bills, maybe a car loan and a few other miscellaneous debts and they had to pay rent and living expenses and found out that you don’t take much money for yourself when you have those sort of bills, and maybe she can’t live in as nice as a place as she would like or drive as nice a car or be able to splurge on luxuries for herself like she would like so she decides to find a man with a higher income to marry so she can stop working and drops her debts on him because the law in most states holds spouses jointly liable for debts.
So women have nobody to blame but themselves for not finding a husband because when they quit working to get married, it means they have wasted their education and the spot they occupied in college could have been filled by a man and the job they took after could have been filled by a man and that man may have been able to make her or some other woman happy but now he can’t because he wasn’t able to get into college or get a good enough job where a woman would even consider him for a potential partner because there was no room for him.
I have never so disgusted with “chauvininistic” opinions, but right now.. what is happenning? I just read so many repulsive opinion… I just can’t believe it! Is slime representative ?