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Here is what Peter wrote earlier today…
HAS MUSHARRAF DONE THE RIGHT THING ?
Police have used tear gas and baton charges to break up demonstrations by Pakistani lawyers against the country’s state of emergency. Lawyers said many colleagues were arrested as protests were dispersed in Lahore, Karachi and Rawalpindi.
The Islamic party Jamaat-e-Islami was also targeted, saying hundreds of its members were arrested overnight. President Pervez Musharraf declared the emergency on Saturday, saying he was acting to curb extremism. Critics, however, believe General Musharraf was acting to pre-empt a judgment by the Supreme Court on whether his re-election last month was legal.
WHAT DO YOU THINK ?
Do you accept this logic of his 3 stages of democracy – starting with stage 1, he says, which was the original coup back in 1999, ending with the events of the weekend — stage 3.
Did he have another option ? How does he keep the lawyers, the executive and the legislature all in place ? Will he keep the military on board ? Will this become violent ?
What should the US and the EU do next ? They donate billions every year as part of the war on terror – what should happen to that aid money now ?
JEHOVAH’S WITNESS — LIFE VERSUS FAITH
A young mother has died after giving birth to twins, following claims that she had refused a blood transfusion because of her faith. Jehovah’s Witness Emma Gough was 22 when she gave birth — the babies are healthy and well.
The hospital, here in the UK, is refusing to comment on reports she had refused a blood transfusion. One family friend however is being quoted as saying “We follow the Bible and abstain from blood and I’ve got no reason to believe that Emma didn’t share those views.” J
Jehovah’s Witnesses refuse blood transfusions because they believe that God has forbidden it in the Bible. They believe that accepting a blood transfusion is a sin.Should doctors ignore this kind of belief, if it’s life and death ? Or should we always – ALWAYS – respect someone’s faith ? What about the twins — they now have a 24 year old Dad, and no Mother. This stance is born out of one part of the Bible — a book written thousands of years ago, can, or should, it still be applied today ? As ever:WORLDHAVEYOURSAY.COMTEXT: 44 77 86 20 60 80
PHONE: 44 20 70 83 72 72
Later, Peter 
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The situation in Pakistan is an example of what has infuriated those of us who were actually concerned about the US national security. The complaint since the days when invading Iraq was just a mummer of yesteryear has been a need to focus on the instability in the Afghanistan/ Pakistan region. They represented the most immediate terrorist and nuclear threat and the region was the most politically unstable in the Middle East. Yet the resources funneled to Iraq have been squandered and wasted. It was a horribly played chess game and now we are in a bad position.
I’m not a terribly religious person, so perhaps I am wrong in trying to apply logic to an issue where logic plays very little role. However… if you are caught, so to speak, between “the devil and the deep blue sea”, must you not “pick your sin”? Wouldn’t one want to pick the lesser of two sins? And in a life-or-death situation, isn’t refusing a blood transfusion tantamount to suicide, also a sin? Which of the two is worse?
I’m thinking how irresponsible the US government would be to not have a plan to remove Pakistan’s nuclear weapons before the looming Islamist takeover there. I really have no problem with Pakistan being run by islamists so long as they don’t pose a military threat to the rest of the world. if they want a sharia state, let them have it, but not with nuclear weapons.
It is a common policy by US administrations to seek allies in the third world it can do business with. Latin America used to be ruled by bloody military dictatorships. One of the bloodiest dictators was Pinochet who was seen by the USA as its ally against the spread of communism in this part of the world led by Cuban leader Fidel Castro.
So it’s no wonder if the US is finding in Musharraf an excellent ally in its fight against Al Qaeda which still has a strong hold in the accessible parts of Afghanistan and Pakistan. An interesting remark is that many of US allies in the third world have a poor record on human rights according to Human rights Watch. Saudi Arabia is an example of the countries enjoying full American supports despite its lack of democratic practices as it was envisaged by Pt Bush in his plan for Middle East democracy. As long as might in politics is considered as right, wrongs will be overlooked as putting them right can results in adverse wrongs to the parties seeking to make things right.
Pakistan has always been known for its lack of democratic transitions in power as power shifts from one leader to another through military coups, making democratic elections bringing to power the likes of Benazir Bhutto and Nawaz Sharif an exception rather than the rule. The US seems to be dealing with Pakistan as it is and adapting to its political reality as long as it isn’t standing in its way to fight its enemies.
The other point is that currently the US can only trust the military now that Pakistan has become a nuclear power. Letting this country get out of hand will make it a big ally of countries opponent to the US like Iran. As long as trouble is limited in Pakistan through sporadic demonstrations, repressions and bomb attacks without shaking the position of the military, Pakistan will look for the US as the best political deal it can get. It can’t force Musharraf to reduce his powers for the benefit of parties that can turn against the USA. It’s a deal. Musharraf needs the US for his survival. The US needs Musharraf “to protect America and protect American lives by continuing to fight against terrorists”. It’s a battle of survival at whatever cost. That‘s what politics is about.
Adults should be free to believe whatever they wish but the state has an obligation to protect children from irresponsible parents. No distinction should be made between clinical insanity and a belief in Bronze Age mythologies when the life of a child is at stake.
John D. Anthony
Salem, Oregon
While I understand Musharraf’s worries about his country’s stability due to the PKK – going to martial law at this time looks simply like a ploy to avoid losing power. I’ve many friends in Pakistan I’ve lost touch with and worry about – and we can only stand by and see what happens. The US is now in the position of trying to condemn another country for doing much of what it is doing. Difficult to protest when Musharraf uses the same reasoning that Bush does – protect the country from terrorists and prepare a strike against another country that the terrorists are coming from. (at least he’s not lying about where the threat is coming from). The US government has a bad habit of turning a “blind eye” to cruelties in another country if it thinks it has something to gain. Watching our government in action as Bush grabs more power and has decided he’s above the law, torture being a norm – how can our government condemn these actions. But many Americans also wonder how long before our own so-called leaders declare martial law with hired mercenaries to back it up. The next year should be very interesting here.
I ask the Jehovah’s witnesses, now that the twins get to grow up motherless, do you still love God so much, who clearly willed that the mother be dead? I’m sure the kids will just be oh so thrilled that God willed their mother to be dead. I also kind of find it funny, how people can even worship God. Imagine god was a person, and god demanded that you worship him, that worshipping anyone else was forbidden, and that you must kill for him those who don’t obey. Would you want to be friends with this person? Hell no! God’s behavior, in the bible, a book written by man, is despicable. He’s a blood thirsty monster. Fortunately he’s a fictional character, but how could anyone worship anyone so cruel out of anything other than fear? Any would loves a monster is mentally ill. It’s kind of like wives who “love” their husband that beats the living daylights out of them every night. If she loves him, she’s mentally ill.
It’s time people move beyond these fairy tales. Do you still believe in Santa Claus? The Tooth fairy? Well, this woman is now dead because of God. Worthy of worship? Not unless you’re crazy.
When I hear of another religious extremist doing something that kills themselves, I think “at least they didn’t kill someone else.”
My compassion goes to the physically healthy kids, who have very little chance of also being mentally healthy and productive, with a mother who killed herself over make-believe, and being raised by, I suppose, a father who “believes” it was theh right thing to do.
Religion is child abuse – and this is an extreme example.
I am sorry for the life of Emma Gough, may Jehovah,
whom she belived in, take care of the Kids and her husband.
No one would want to kill themselve for any reason, so if Emma passed away because she was respecting her bible trained conscience, I think she did the right thing. She did not bomb anyone with explosives. As old as the bible is, it has very important lessons for our use today.
My heart goes out to here Emma’s family.
This is regarding the issue of the woman who refused a blood transfusion.
I believe this raises three key questions:
1) Assuming the woman died of massive blood loss,
who was in attendance at the birth,
and to what to extent are they culpable for this loss?
2) In view of the fact that there are so many oxygen-transporting
blood substitutes capable of bridging the tine to red-cell replenishment,
were these offered, and did she refuse even these?
3) Who owns the life of an individual capable of making major intellectual decisions?
Is life-ownership conditional? If not, who should decide the conditions?
Thank you.
We condemn Musharaf s violation of constitution. We are with our judges. Najeeb, Pakistan
Hi Peter and James! Preservation of life is the most important priority, at least for me! When it comes to preserving life, all other laws s
Great, the sooner these people die off, the sooner religion will die. Belief in a supernatural diety should be catagorized as a mental disorder.
Musharaf is the world most dangerous dictator and should be punish through sanctions by UN.
Jehovah’s witnesses didn’t compromise their beliefs under threat of death by the nazi regime. If people would want witnesses to compromise now under “possible” threat of death, should they have compromised under pressure from Hitler?
Bart, problem is that there are two kids going to be be brainwashed, so the numbers are increasing actually. To all the religious people, answer this question, and then perhaps you’ll start to give up your fairy tales. Can God create a stone he cannot lift?
That destroys everything you know right there, and you’ll beat yourselves over your head. If God even exists, God isn’t what you made it out to be. That people die over religion just shows me how incredibly stupid humans are as a species.
A person has an absolute right to bodily determination, whether it is refusing a transfusion or opting for an abortion. Any interference in such personal, bodily determination is a violation of the person in question.
Emma Gough’s senseless death is just another notch in the belt of religious absurdities. People need to stop adhering to a faith that promises a farsical afterlife while trivializing reality. I hope the Gough’s children use the ridiculous nature of their mothers death in a positive manner and choose atheism when they are grown.
Secular and religious people have very different ideas about what happens after body death. I am a Christian who is fighting a life-threatening case of ALL leukemia. As a Christian, I believe in an afterlife and an eternal relationship with God. Presumably, secular people believe that their current life is all that they have. That difference in belief determines whether it worth doing something that we consider to be offensive to God to save our life.
Emma Gough clearly believed that having a blood transfusion would leave separated from God from eternity – a far worse fate for a true Christian than the death of our bodies.
Dear World have your say,
Firstly I never had a father, he died I have felt cheated ever since, also I am agnostic. This woman regardless of her beliefs was selfish, she may be happy in heaven if this is what she believes but what about the sad family she left behind?
Boy, the minister from Pakistan seems like like a real compassionate and understanding guy? I don’t see why they are having any sort of problems if all of their leaders are like this? Rock on Mr. Minister.
Its very horrible that a woman would die over her refusal to take a blood transfusion.who takes care of the kids?
How many people should die when at last those sects will be ban?
Can we recall how many attempts on musharaf s life within a year?the last sucide attempt where was the bomber going?do you blame musharaf for his actions.the opposition didnt help matters neither.
After we watched 2 patients Jehova witnes die 4 not taking blood, I decided to meet them half way. Come in early, we operate early with saline. Never lost any case.
THE STATE OF EMERGENCY IN PAKISTAN IS A POLITICAL GIMMICK BY PRESIDENT MUSHARAF TO ARREST THOSE WITH DIFFERENT VIEWS
In the state Oregon, Dr do have the right to provide medical therapy, they feel will be in the best intrests of a mionr patient, if it is a matter of life or death. I would also like to state that Oregon has a fantastic bloodless surgery progeam in a number of hospitals. These programs have helped many people who are not Jehovahs Witnesses.
Mr.musharaf must step down.
History repeats itself, why am I feeling that at the moment I m listening to an Iraqi minister at Saddam s times?! Mr. Minister, get real!
The Bible never told J.W not to receive blood transfusion. The holy book is being interpreted out of context. The right of the unborn child must be protected by others especially doctors. You may refuse medication if you want to commit suicide but dont drag the innocent children
Who has absolute right to establish standards 4 man? Ourselves or God. Jehovah has promi sed everlasting life for those abey ing him.
The Watchtower Bible and Tract Soc is a cult not a religion
Gross fear to question unclear areas and applications of religion has made it stagnant than science, apparently, enjoying dynamic progress!
A caller on the Pakistan issue tried to say that Lincoln was misquoted, as if implying Abraham Lincoln was some kind of saint. Abraham Lincoln could be viewed as a 100x worse tyrant than Musharaff. If you ignore the morality of slavery, which the Civil War in the US wasn’t about anyways, Lincoln refused to accept the will of the people in the southern states that seceeded. He refused to recognize their will to separare, and then ordered the US army to invade these seceded states. This resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Americans. Rather than respect the will of the people, Lincoln came down with the sword and killed many many of his own people rather than to honor their wishes. Is that democratic?
That state that surrounds Washington, DC, Maryland, was about the vote to seceed from the United States, and Lincoln ordered the US army to go to the state house in Annapolis, MD and prevented the vote from taking place.
Lincoln isn’t the angel people make him out to be in history. Were all those lives lost worth it? Was completely suspending the constitution worth it? Musharaff should look to Lincoln as an example for violating the constitution and people’s rights and democratic values, and then being considered a saint for doing it!
I iave always thought jehovah witnesses are fanatics. I pray they dont develop to a christian alpaeda.
If regretful was only the US could say in the latest Pakistan s relapse to dark ages,then help the junta in BURMA.The US ll surely regret this Musharraf s ploy
I think the doctor should have forced her to have the blood transfusion even though it was against her religion. This is because the doctors take a vow to not do harm, and by allowing her to die, did her harm when he could have helped her. It is illegal in the United States to euthenize people suffering from a terminal illness and if that is illegal, it should be illegal to refuse to accecpt a cure for a disease that is simple and somewhat safe such as a blood transfusion.
Musharaf naively belvd his service 2 d US wd free hs hands bt it enslaved hm & estranged hm from his people !
If this person refused to have a blood transfusion because of the bible, did she at any point in her life eat shellfish or pork, given that they are not kosher and the bible forbids that too?
As to the issue of the Jehovah’s witness case: I hate to sound so callous, but when we have people who have such wildly irrational beliefs, the best we can do is hope that these beliefs (and the genes of the people that hold them) do no get passed on. If, in fact, this woman died because some other wacko convinced her that blood transfusions are a “sin,” then that is a sad but deserved outcome. The fact that it is the year 2007 and we still have a majority of the world believing in myths (such as god, buddha, allah, the tooth fairy, etc.) is a stunning indictment of the failure of our educational systems. It is also indicative of the inherent irrational nature of us as a species, and goes a long way to explaining the frequent poor choices we make in relation to how we respond to each other and to the planet. I used to think that religions were simply a quaint vestige of a simpler, less educated time. But having barely survived the last 7 years of a neo-conservative christian fundamentalist president here in the U.S., I can see that religion, all religion, is ultimately about control, repression and fear. As just one example of this side of religion, I hold up the Westboro Baptist church. The sooner the extremists of all religions go away, the better off humanity will ultimately be. I don’t think that as a species we will ever completely eradicate religion – it is too “hard-wired” in most people’s brains. But maybe with work, and education, we can get today’s religions relegated to the roles that the ancient religions (such as Greek mythology) now occupy – cute, interesting little stories that may have some underlying meaning and are culturally significant, but are no more true than the myth of Santa Claus.
I ask that you withhold my name and email from any public forum, if you use this. Not because I am ashamed of my views, rather because I know all too well that the United States is filled with well-armed fundamentalists who would like nothing more than to bring harm to a “heathen” like myself.
Cheers
Mike, in Oregon USA
How is this different from committing suicide, or euthanasia, both of which are illegal in the United States, but because she is “christian” it is ok? I dont think so. For the sake of consistancy the doctors who did not treat this woman should be charged just like Dr. Kavorkian, or the laws should be changed
Why was it okay for this child to decide to die and Terry Schiavo was kept alive while in a brain dead state? Did anyone consult Senator Frist before making this decision? Did President Bush get out of bed in the middle of the night?
One of the callers mentioned the importance of giving people the right to choose whether or not they accept life saving transfusion, how different is this from Euthanasia from a ligal stand point?
While it is true some are brain washed and probably are not able to choose for themselves, it is nobody’s business what someone else wants for themselves.
The bible also says “Not a sparrow should fall lest he first gives his nod”. Whether you live or die treatment or not, is entirely up to the powers that be. We are all just a bunch of mercantile slaves anyway, why stop anyone else’s escape.
Its ia a cult, look at its history it claimed to know the end of the world, it grew out of cult status just like the mormans, [church of later day saints] it is man made man control
and the person was feed a “bunch of crap” she was another sad example of uneducated people not understanding the reality of the world another creationist fool
the bible is the word of men used to control other men it is way out of context if these people want to live the live of the bible give up all the worldly goods
so why do you drive, why do use computers so live like it was in 0 BC
get a life work to solve the problems quit being so selfish it is not about you
Let’s eliminate religion from this discussion, shall we? All she did was say I don’t want this kind of medical procedure done to me. She did use religion to justify it, but she didn’t have to. She can refuse treatment because she has free will, regardless of her religious beliefs.
If I hypothetically need a liver transplant, I am within my rights to say no. Are you going to force me to go through with the surgery even after I refused? We cannot start overriding people’s choices just because we don’t like those choices. It would set up a dangerous precedent that the decisions that we make about our medical treatment and our bodies can be overridden at will. Is that what you want?
I am sorry that she died and that her children are now motherless, however, she made a decision that she believed to be correct for her. We cannot go against her wishes just because we don’t like her religious beliefs.
It’s a fine thing that the patient’s wishes, regardless how irrational they seem to others, are respected. Unfortunately, this is the case only in somatic medicine.
Dear bbc the woman that rejected blood transfussion was a caword it served her better she died
The New Testament doesn t teach that blood transfusion is sinful or wrong. Acts 15:20 instructs us to refrain from eating animal blood as food!
Musharraf Mubarak and Pinochet obcessed with POWER. 1 down 2 to go.
Faith must always keep u alive.
Hi BBC,I Want 2 contribute 2 the discursion.Did that mean doctors had no other option 2 save this lady in this scientific age?
Blood transfusion for a patiat is treatment not a sin. If you refuse treatment and die you have commited suecit and it s a sin.
Doctors have the mandate to do what is necessary for the patients wellfare.allowing patients to decide might create a dangerous precedent open to be exploited by stereotypes
The key that no one is realizing about Christianity is that Jehovah Witnesses does not believe the same as most Christians do. If her beliefs were outside the Jehovah Witness she would have gotten the blood transfusion knowing that Christ could have still used her to in his special way. Obviously her decision was very selfish and being that it was so selfish, I have a hard time believing she would make it to God’s Kingdom. Even though the Jehovah Witness do believe that only 240,000 will make it to heaven, which is also another selfish viewpoint.
Christ wants to preserve life, not take away…
I don’t think you can sue someone for saving their lives. There must be some related doctrine to good samaritan laws. At least in the US, the law doesn’t recognize a “wrongful life” tort which basically is the argument that “I’m so messed up you should have have aborted me or euthanized me” and the law states that we value life enough to not allow such a cause of action. I would presume the same would happen when you could easily save someone’s life.
How is this young Lady any different from someone committing suicide??? or assisted suicide? I feel sorry for her children. Apparently her husband has the same Dark Ages world views as she did. Perhaps the children should be removed from his custody. Is history starting to run in reverse???
steve – I’m not disagreeing with your points, just thought I’d mention though that your comment about god being able to create a rock he cannot lift is an invalid argument that you learn how to refute in intro philosophy (really – it’s actually a specific case they bring up as a flawed argument in basic logic). Just thought I’d mention that so next time you don’t find yourself caught off guard by a religious nut who’s taken philosophy 101
Bruce- How is it an invalid argument? To prove a negative? Is it really even that? An athiest will ask a religious person to prove God exists. They cannot, and always say to you “faith”, and might then ask “prove that God doesn’t exist” which you cannot really do. But given that religious people go by the presumption that God exists, and think that god is all powerful, I think it’s a perfectly valid question. Can God create a stone he cannot lift? Either way, it shows God is not all powerful like they say God is.
Not really… it’s essentially asking, “can an omnipotent being prove he is not omnipotent” – I agree with the spirit of it, but the question is logically flawed.
PS: The problem is in the initial presumption. If you start from a flawed “fact”, you can logically proceed to prove anything you like… which brings me back to my initial post today – is logic really appropriate here in the first place.
JEHOVAH’S WITNESS — LIFE VERSUS FAITH
A young mother has died after giving birth to twins, following claims that she had refused a blood transfusion because of her faith. Jehovah’s Witness Emma Gough was 22 when she gave birth — the babies are healthy and well. The hospital, here in the UK, is refusing to comment on reports she had refused a blood transfusion. One family friend however is being quoted as saying “We follow the Bible and abstain from blood and I’ve got no reason to believe that Emma didn’t share those views.” Jehovah’s Witnesses refuse blood transfusions because they believe that God has forbidden it in the Bible. They believe that accepting a blood transfusion is a sin.
Should doctors ignore this kind belief, if it’s life and death ? Should we always – ALWAYS – respect someone’s faith ? What about the twins — they now have a 24 year old Dad, and no Mother. This stance is born out of one part of the Bible — a book written thousands of years ago, can, or should, it still be applied today ?
Every body has his or her faith, and some people are very obedient to their faith, the Bible should remain as it is, those who think of modification of it may have their own interests, as we belong to different dominations, it’s certain that we have different believes. so these Jehovah witnesses are right for their faith, same as other religions have their own.
Arnaud Emmanuel Ntirenganya
Bamenda Cameroon
See Isaiah 45:7 always depending of course on the translation you see.
David Russell
This is another example of just how evil religion can be. What I would have done is give her the transfusion by force if necessary. When she was better, I’d take her into a room where the twins were, hand her a straight razor and say ‘Now you idiot, bleed to death in front of your children–but you are going to have to do it yourself, don’t hide behind some book that should have gone out of print 2000 years ago’.
Greg Weller
–
On the back of the mirror,
A spring unseen,
A flowering plum-tree.
–Basho